Centrino-based Linux Laptops

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Posted by michael on Thursday January 20, 2005 @03:06AM from the tux-inside dept.

sebFlyte writes "Intel has lifted its ban on Linux-based laptops carrying its Centrino brand... It obviously makes very little difference technically what name is on the outside of the box, but does this represent a major philosophical shift for the chipmaker, or are they just leaping upon the nearest bandwagon in pursuit of a few extra bucks?"

316 comments

No excuse by slashnutt · 2005-01-20 03:07 · Score: 5, Interesting

Now that Intel ceased banning Linux on Laptops then I should be able to call Dell or HP and say I want a laptop that runs Linux out of the box right? Then why hasn't AMD captured the Linux laptop market? Oh yeah the vendors don't see a market. I imagine that it is time for a small time vendor to start making 100% Linux compatible laptops and if they survive and make money then great - this is similar on how Dell started in the desktop market. If the market is big enough than the small vendor took a big risk but it would pay off; if the market doesn't support the small vendor then the big name vendors will avoid Linux like the plague and say to share holders 'see I told you so - Linux is ready for primetime'. Either way works out best as I just want a Linux latop.
1. Re:No excuse by dreamchaser · 2005-01-20 03:11 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  As much as I'd love to see mainstream laptops built for Linux with full vendor support, the sad fact is that there *is* no real market for it. It's a very tiny niche of computer users who would buy one. It's not just that the vendor's 'don't see a market' as you put it. There just isn't much of a market TO see. Hopefully this will change as Linux continues to evolve into a more user friendly system.
2. Re:No excuse by fshalor · 2005-01-20 03:15 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  And most of those geeks who demand a linux laptop are being slightly drawn by mac's right now.
  
  I'm one: Gave up my dead PII 300 Cpia Debian machine for a iBook. :)
  
  I have came close to snapping up an amd64 e-machines a few times though.
  
  --
  -=fshalor ::this post not spellchecked. move along::
3. Re:No excuse by dsginter · 2005-01-20 03:15 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  I hate to piggyback the FP with something that isn't exactly a reply but this is mu humble experience.
  
  I work at a large corporation and we periodically bid our laptops in units of 5000. Centrino ultimately means nothing. It is just a standard for a "Pentium M with wireless + extra premium". What we have found is that it is much cheaper to just buy a "Pentium M with wireless - Centrino logo" for much less money. HP, Dell and IBM basically said that we could have the same PC with the Centrino sticker but it will cost us a lot more.
  
  It is the same thing yet millions of people are eating it up and paying a lot more simply to have the Centrino sticker on their machine. Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large quanitites.
  
  --
  More
4. Re:No excuse by DenDave · 2005-01-20 03:17 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  Actually Intel reports a pretty interesting reason for the "ban" and also as to why they now allow it..
  
  Karen Regis, manager of mobile programs and promotions at the chipmaker said the reason for the change was that with the release of the 2.6.8 Linux kernel, the open source operating system's power management abilities now meet Intel's requirements for Centrino notebook battery life.
  
  --
  -if at first you don't succeed, stay the heck away from paragliding.
5. Re:No excuse by canuck57 · 2005-01-20 03:18 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  ... I should be able to call Dell or HP...
  
  Not sure many major vendors, especially Dell and HP are ready for Linux on the portable PCs just yet. Although I know of quite a few Dells running Linux it is not officially supported by Dell. They do not want to upset the Microsoft monopoly agreement as their per unit costs go up if they do not "recommend Windows".
  
  I know that is anti-competative. But the US legal system doesn't care or is operating under the principle that Microsoft is a US business so it isn't anti-competative, it is business.
  
  So when I bought my last PC it didn't have Intel oe Windows in it. An cheap too. Where else nbut Walmart:
  http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product _id=3504708&cat=179113&type=19&dept=3944%20%20 Or google for "walmart balance"
6. Re:No excuse by paulatz · 2005-01-20 03:21 · Score: 1
  
  You say it's a very tiny niche. Maube it's between 1.5% to 2.5%, or even less. In fact 1.5% is not tiny at all! There is a dozen of mainstream laptop producers, if one of them could increse its market share aquiring all the linux users it would be a 20% to 50% increase for its business.
  
  --
  this post contain no useful information, no need to mod it down
7. Re:No excuse by adler187 · 2005-01-20 03:23 · Score: 1
  
  "I imagine that it is time for a small time vendor to start making 100% Linux compatible laptops and if they survive and make money then great"
  
  You mean like LinuxCertified? They have been around for a while now actually.
8. Re:No excuse by jellomizer · 2005-01-20 03:23 · Score: 1
  
  For Intel this is a Low to No Cost way to improve sales and PR. Is saying Hey you can use our sticker to advertise our product on your system. Even if they don't sell a single Laptop with Linux on them Intel is not going to get hurt by this, and mabey they get a .5% increase insales or mabey more (even from the windows market) Because peole may get a windows system and knowing that it would be linux compatible they will install Linux on it later. But for the Dells and HPs out there Selling Linux laptops is more of an investment for them. They will need to advertise there laptops and keep a # of them in stock preinstalled. Check all their hardware to make sure it runs in Windows and Linux and for what 1 or 2% increase in sales. The Profit from sales my not justify the extra cost.
  
  --
  If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
9. Re:No excuse by DenDave · 2005-01-20 03:24 · Score: 1
  
  I disagree. The problem with most laptops is the dodgy quality of the manufacture. Linux as kernel for an OS is very suitable for a laptop. There are a variety of great distros out there and many of them cater perfectly to the mobile worker. Featuring everything from group calendars and addressbooks to MS-compatible wordprocessing, mediafile playback, wireless connectivity and this with good security potential and stability.. so really your post seems a little out of whack.. To get back to the issue dodgy manufacture... As Intel has mentioned they are now happy with the support for centrino specific technology in the kernel perhaps they could take issue with the manufaturers taking care to build decent machines. I have had horrible experience with most laptops I have used ranging from IBM to Acer spotting a sony and a toshiba along the way. They all sucked. Things broke, they were noisy and had the battery life of an amoeba. Now I have found a decent manufacturer and they ain't even all that expensive.. Stink different, that's right, Apple.. runs like a charm and Yellow Dog is pretty nifty (coming from Redhat on x86-32). These puppys have far superior battery performance and build quality than anything twice their cost is available in x86-32... so.. I hope that Centrino delivers but i doubt sincerely...
  
  --
  -if at first you don't succeed, stay the heck away from paragliding.
10. Re:No excuse by hackstraw · 2005-01-20 03:24 · Score: 1
  
  Now that Intel ceased banning Linux on Laptops then I should be able to call Dell or HP and say I want a laptop that runs Linux out of the box right?
  
  Intel never "banned" Linux on laptops. Intel could care less what you do with their hardware after you buy it, including smashing it with a hammer, or immediately throwing it in the trash.
  
  Intel was protesting companies using the Centrino brand name with a Linux operating system because Linux did not sufficiently work with the features of the Centrino branded products (power saving, wireless, etc) and did not want their brand name compromised because of this. I don't know the status of Linux on a Centrino based laptop, but my guess is that its still sufficiently broken and/or sucky in general, and this is partly or mostly due to Intel not letting the Linux developers have the needed info about how the hardware works, nor did they (afaik) provide drivers for Centrino products.
  
  Does any of the stuff like ACPI work with Linux yet? Can Linux sleep and resume? Does it still eat batteries?
11. Re:No excuse by unknown_goth · 2005-01-20 03:27 · Score: 1
  
  i agree most *nix users who want to go mobile go for a mac, most of the with 12-15in powerbooks. oh and i have to say it.. . . . so with these new laptops . . . can it run linux?
  
  --
  Force of Will = Glue 'nuff said.
12. Re:No excuse by IANAAC · 2005-01-20 03:29 · Score: 1
  
  I have came close to snapping up an amd64 e-machines a few times though.
  
  I still use my 5310 (not 64bit) every day as my main machine. I've run SUSE on it since 9.0 with no problems. Best impulse buy I eve made.
13. Re:No excuse by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 03:29 · Score: 0
  
  Yeah and instead of notebooks, they could be marketed as Penguin Books!
  
  oh.. wait..
14. Re:No excuse by pyros · 2005-01-20 03:30 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  HP has been selling the nx5000 with Suse Pro 9.1 preinstalled for months. Granted, they say the Intel Pro wireless isn't supported, but Intel has drivers for these cards at ipw2100.sf.net and ipw2200.sf.net. I believe the drivers are open source. So the only thing left is the multibay DVD+RW. But power management should work out of the box, I believe.
15. Re:No excuse by hendridm · 2005-01-20 03:33 · Score: 1
  
  I have came close to snapping up an amd64 e-machines a few times though.
  
  I bought the M6805. I can't get any distro to even install on it. I tried Fedora, SuSe, Mandrake, and I think I even tried Debian on it. I tried both 64-bit and 32-bit versions (where available). Most freeze before the setup even completes, some won't boot at all. I think I eventually got SuSe to install, but it didn't detect any drivers and froze a few times. So I threw the XP Home image back on :(
  
  I'm no Linux genious, but I thought I should be able to at least get through the setup process. I can appreciate that some/many drivers wouldn't work, but please. I have Fedora on my server (no GUI) and on my main desktop and they run fine.
  
  Also, eMachines doesn't put drivers on their web site for their laptops. When I lost my reinstall CD, I had a helluva time finding compatible drivers and eventually spent the $20 for a replacement CD. Bastards. My 32-bit eMachine desktop seems to run Linux okay.
16. Re:No excuse by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 03:42 · Score: 1, Interesting
  
  Linux can work with ACPI on machines which implement it properly. The chance of your randomly selected Centrino branded laptop working properly with all its features out of the box is fairly small, but perhaps that's something to take up with Intel, rather than with Linux developers (indeed Intel has people assigned permanently to trying to fudge various known ACPI problems)
  
  Linux can suspend and resume if the hardware is suitable, and current Linux distros often include the necessary glue to make this work if you're enthusiastic about it. Sadly hardware makers still basically only test Windows. If Windows doesn't touch a particular feature or option of ACPI then they don't test it. Should Linux need that feature chances are it doesn't work.
  
  Running flat out Linux eats batteries, Windows eats batteries, MacOS eats batteries. I haven't seen any work done vs battery consumed benchmarks to tell you how much difference there is on a Linux laptop with fully supported (by the vendor) hardware.
  
  The experience with wireless has been interesting. Intel has engineers assigned to make drivers for the main Centrino wireless chipsets. The drivers are Free Software and have been basically useable for many months now (I have an IBM Thinkpad) but haven't yet been included in the Linus blessed kernels. The Intel engineers seem to have hit various hardware bugs which went un-noticed in the Windows drivers. If these drivers had been reverse engineered we might never have known that the hardware or firmware was faulty, not the driver...
17. Re:No excuse by It+doesn't+come+easy · 2005-01-20 03:45 · Score: 1
  
  There is a market in it's infancy, growing as businesses start switching to Linux, because quite a few businesses are only buying laptops these days (at least, this was the case for my last two jobs).
  
  --
  The NSA: The only part of the US government that actually listens.
18. Re:No excuse by Martin+Blank · 2005-01-20 03:49 · Score: 1
  
  There's nothing wrong with "recommended" solutions. So long as Microsoft isn't requiring that the companies not support anything else, this is a perfectly legitimate tactic. I've seen web hosting companies that "recommend" Plesk or Cpanel, car companies that "recommend" Goodyear tires, and electronics shops that "recommend" Blaupunkt. They're doing it because the company cuts them a deal in exchange for the advertising.
  
  Note to anyone who may think I'm a Microsoft junkie: I'm one of those who supported the original decision to split the company.
  
  --
  You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
19. Re:No excuse by IgnoramusMaximus · 2005-01-20 03:51 · Score: 0
  
  And most of those geeks who demand a linux laptop are being slightly drawn by mac's right now.
  Not untill they start making iBooks with the "eraser-head" mice instead of the touchpads. A sgnificant portion of people out there, myself included, cant stand touchpads. That is one of the reasons IBM ThinPads had such a following. Many of us were terribly disappointed when IBM caved in to the screaming wankers of touchpads and started adding them to the ThinkPads thus fucking their existing customer base with an unwieldy kludge thing interfering with positioning of one's palms when typing. Yes you could disable that abomination (I dont recall any of my ThinkPad using friends ever having one enabled) but it was still a portruding distraction right in the middle of the wrist support area.
  Really what should happen they should make separate lines of laptops, one for users of touchpads (I will never know why but there are a lot of people who seem to believe they are usable) and eraser-head mice. Then I will start buying iBooks.
20. Re:No excuse by essreenim · 2005-01-20 03:51 · Score: 1
  
  Karen Regis, manager of mobile programs and promotions at the chipmaker said the reason for the change was that with the release of the 2.6.8 Linux kernel, the open source operating system's power management abilities now meet Intel's requirements for Centrino notebook battery life.
  Can you give me a source for that. Can't find it on google.
  Also, do you know how Windows power requirements compared. If I find no truth to the above, I will never again buy Intel and lobby others to follow. If Windows power consumption was in a par with Linux and the claims are simply a mask for discrimination I will never buy Intel again...never have but I do like the Pentium M and if I was going to buy a laptop, I was thinking of a Centino..
21. Re:No excuse by fimbulvetr · 2005-01-20 03:54 · Score: 1
  
  Call one of us, if it were me, I'd gladdy spend time trying to get it on there.
  I'm not only one of those guys who is gratified by getting linux on some obscure pieces of hardware, I'm also one of those guys who'd be happy just to see someone else using linux.
  I've ran across a few guys, and we start chatting and all of a sudden I'm helping them get the mandrake they installed 1 year ago to to run right on their laptop.
  
  You got a Linux User group near you?
22. Re:No excuse by The+Spoonman · 2005-01-20 03:55 · Score: 1
  
  Not untill they start making iBooks with the "eraser-head" mice instead of the touchpads
  
  I agree. I've given up on Linux for a Mac, but I can't stand the built-in touchpad. Worse still is the fact that they still only come with a single button. It's a PITA to have to command-click with that thing. Although, regardless of laptop type (I use a T30 at the office), I still carry around a USB mouse. I only use the built-in when absolutely necessary.
  
  --
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  http://www.workorspoon.com
23. Re:No excuse by fimbulvetr · 2005-01-20 03:58 · Score: 1
  
  Yes, the drivers are open source, outside of some firmware you need to download from intel after agreeing to the license.
  I will say too, these drivers rock. I've had amazing stability after .66 (They're on 1.02 or something now).
  Even in the case you don't use these, the ndiswrapper one was kinda stable.
24. Re:No excuse by DenDave · 2005-01-20 03:59 · Score: 1
  
  Yes I can. It is the source article which is linked in the slashdot post.
  Please read these things before crapflooding.
  
  --
  -if at first you don't succeed, stay the heck away from paragliding.
25. Re:No excuse by IgnoramusMaximus · 2005-01-20 04:00 · Score: 1
  
  still carry around a USB mouse. I only use the built-in when absolutely necessary.
  I used to do that too but after years of using the eraser-head I find people get so good at it that the mouse gets pulled out really rarely. I never use an external mouse anymore. And yes I forgot about the single button thing, a total deal breaker that it is!
26. Re:No excuse by vluther · 2005-01-20 04:01 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  The m6805 needs a bios update , go to www.notebookforums.com/org and follow the lead from there, theres also a Fedora developer who did a lot of work on the emachines to work under linux.
  
  If you use Gentoo, when you boot type emachines as the kernel type and it'll detect everything for you.
  
  I had a m6809 Gentoo was up and running from stage 2 in 5 hrs (X,fluxbox,firefox,thunderbird)..mucho faster than intel. I gave up the laptop because I needed a higher res screen and eMachines doesn't seem to be interested in catering to us.. I would've gladly paid a few hundred more but oh well.
27. Re:No excuse by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 04:02 · Score: 0
  
  You pointed out a logical problem with the poster. Unfortunately logic must take a back seat when the Apple fan-boys want to gush about their candy-colored plastic. Therefore you were modded down.
28. Re:No excuse by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 04:05 · Score: 0
  
  Not just a trackpoint. But also a think-light, an IBM keyboard, non-slip cover, engineered case, and years and years and years of fundamental research.
29. Re:No excuse by Ucklak · 2005-01-20 04:06 · Score: 1
  
  I'm one too and there is no match for battery life on those macs. (as well as out of the box DVD playing)
  
  --
  if you steal from one source, that is plagiarism, if you steal from many, well, that's just research.
30. Re:No excuse by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 04:07 · Score: 0
  
  Pretty nice piece of plastic.
31. Re:No excuse by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 04:09 · Score: 0
  
  The same can be said of credit cards and vibrators.
32. Re:No excuse by amorsen · 2005-01-20 04:19 · Score: 2
  
  A sgnificant portion of people out there, myself included, cant stand touchpads.
  A significant portion of people out there, myself included, can't stand clit mice. I find it impossible to do precision work with those things. With a touchpad I can even play FPS's. Mice are still more precise, but with a mouse I have to move my hand off of the keyboard all the time.
  
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  Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
33. Re:No excuse by wild_berry · 2005-01-20 04:19 · Score: 1
  
  Does any of the stuff like ACPI work with Linux yet? Can Linux sleep and resume? Does it still eat batteries?
  God help me.
  
  ACPI is something that is alive and well in the Kernel, reasonably reliably throughout 2.6. Kernel 2.4 had some features but people found it difficult to configure and use. Work still needs to go into each distribution to make the ACPI and APM features a standard part of the Linux experience.
  
  The pages I've read about using Linux on Laptops (er... http://www.linux-on-laptops.com/ and others) is that battery life is comparable and sleep/resume is there.
34. Re:No excuse by AstroDrabb · 2005-01-20 04:20 · Score: 1
  
  I imagine that it is time for a small time vendor to start making 100% Linux compatible laptops
  There have been a few out there for a while now. Emperor Linux has some really nice laptops, though most seem to be on the high-end price-wise. There is also LinuxCertified.com. They have few nice laptops, including a Centrino based laptop and an AMD-64 based laptop.
  
  --
  If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land,
  it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. -James Madison
35. Re:No excuse by dJCL · 2005-01-20 04:23 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, now if only they could get the drivers to work reliably with AMD64 systems... My laptop refuses to load the firmware properly with a dmawaittimeout(I think that's it) every time it tries to.
  
  The wireless and the alps touchpad are the only things stopping my from ditching windows completely on that thing(and games, but that's only at lan parties anyway). And the alps touchpad probably just needs me to spend some more time on it to solve.
  
  --
  On Arrakis: early worm gets the bird. Magister mundi sum!
36. Re:No excuse by theendlessnow · 2005-01-20 04:25 · Score: 1
  
  I don't think you fully understand market competition. Often times, it is well worth the effort to get the additional percent, or even fractional percent when the market is already saturated with vendors. If you don't get that one percent, you're competition will. Granted, Intel isn't exactly a latop manufacturer, but there are chipset alternatives out there and Intel knows that there will be even more down the road. Might as well pick up every imaginable share of the market before the others attempt to steal it away from you.
37. Re:No excuse by amorsen · 2005-01-20 04:26 · Score: 2
  
  And yes I forgot about the single button thing, a total deal breaker that it is!
  With a touchpad you can just define two-finger-clicks to be right clicks, and three-finger-clicks to be middle clicks. No such luck with a clit mouse.
  
  --
  Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
38. Re:No excuse by Kjella · 2005-01-20 04:27 · Score: 1
  
  It is the same thing yet millions of people are eating it up and paying a lot more simply to have the Centrino sticker on their machine. Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large quanitites.
  
  If you don't have a clue about the product, you go by a substitute like brand name. People go for a Centrino laptop because they've no idea what a "Pentium M with wireless" is. That's why people want a "Coca-cola" or "McDonalds" too. They wouldn't know how to "break it down" to order a soft drink or hamburger the way they want them, so they order by brand.
  
  To you, there's 5000*$X dollars to save. To Joe Sixpack, there's $X dollars to save. Try looking at the rest of your life. Your car, housing, consumer electronics, furniture, clothes, vacations etc. How often do you spend $X too much? Is it really stupidity?
  
  I know I do all the time, because quite frankly it has no interest for me. Like now, I should get a washing machine. Am I going to research and figure out what I need and what the different machines offer and which one best matches my preferences? To be honest, I'm probably going to buy one of the same brand my parents use, because they say it is solid. A name and some weak anecdotal evidence, that'll do. Same with a Centrino.
  
  Kjella
  
  --
  Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
39. Re:No excuse by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 04:27 · Score: 0
  
  Your post is misleading. Intel sells the Centrino kit for exactly the sum of the prices of the constituent parts, and will sell you the constituent parts separately if you like. If they did not do this, then the DOJ would be all over them yelling "antitrust". You might still be right -- if what you got was the Pentium M along with a 3rd party wireless card or motherboard. Centrino's selling point is that by using the whole group of Intel parts (including Intel-approved software, to bring things back on-topic), you get various value-added things like better compatibility, power consumption, stability, etc. As to those millions of "stupid people" you refer to, well the media have a lot of control over them. If Centrino sucked, then they'd quickly hear all about it (think "Dasani"), but in actual fact there's a lot of good press on Centrino-branded kit, creating the good reputation it enjoys. Full disclosure: I work for Intel :)
40. Re:No excuse by rainman_bc · 2005-01-20 04:27 · Score: 1
  
  I just wish Airsnort worked with ndiswrapper :( Using a Linksys WPC11 (version 4 - Realtek), and can't get Airsnort to work... Haven't tried Kismet yet though...
  
  --
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41. Re:No excuse by AstroDrabb · 2005-01-20 04:28 · Score: 1
  
  I don't know the status of Linux on a Centrino based laptop, but my guess is that its still sufficiently broken and/or sucky in general
  Did you RTFA? The reason Intel is allowing Linux based laptops to use the Centrino brand name now is:
  Karen Regis, manager of mobile programs and promotions at the chipmaker said the reason for the change was that with the release of the 2.6.8 Linux kernel, the open source operating system's power management abilities now meet Intel's requirements for Centrino notebook battery life.
  
  --
  If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land,
  it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. -James Madison
42. Re:No excuse by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 04:33 · Score: 0
  
  I also own an M6805, and Ubuntu 4.10 (32-bit) is the only distro that I've been able to get working (I don't want to use the unofficial BIOS update). Ubuntu 4.10 64-bit does not work.
43. Re:No excuse by MsGeek · 2005-01-20 04:34 · Score: 1
  
  The problem with most laptops is the dodgy quality of the manufacture.
  
  This is why ThinkPads have been such good Linux laptops in the past, and why I am worried about the purchase of IBM's Personal Systems Division by Lenovo. The 600 series is solid as a rock, so is the current R series, T series and X series. The "i" series sucked...they were actually designed and built by Acer and badged by IBM.
  
  Yes, now that IBM PSD has been bought by Lenovo, perhaps all we have left as far as reliable laptop kit is Apple. However, why run Linux on an Apple when you have a solid *BSD-based OS in MacOS X? I'm going to get a Mac mini around June of this year, and I'll be running it on X exclusively. I'd rather have a more KDE-like interface, but I can get used to Quartz. And all you need to make the command line more familiar is to install BASH. (The shell you get with MacOS X is more like the C-shell)
  
  Once the IBM designed/built ThinkPads are gone, Apple will be the only game in town. Ultimately Intel's moves to support Centrino on Linux are too little, too late. Too bad.
  
  --
  Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
44. Re:No excuse by IgnoramusMaximus · 2005-01-20 04:42 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  With a touchpad you can just define two-finger-clicks to be right clicks, and three-finger-clicks to be middle clicks. No such luck with a clit mouse.
  And with twelve-finger + one-foot + penis tap you can have scroll wheel working in no time. The point is that some of us prefer to use an ergonomic (to us) device which accommodates 95% of our work needs without interfering with our typing which comprises even higher proportion of activity then mousing. And dont even bother musing about the ridiculous kludges such as "palm detection" used to try to rescue that decrepid thing from moving the mouse and clicking randomly while you type.
  But as I said, since there appear to be devotees of arcane and unwieldy devices such as touchpads, they should make the laptops with those too, I can imagine that it is not a rocket-science type of technological achoievement to have a piece of plastic snap in where touchpad was after you detach it and an eraser head to be simply inserted into an existing slot between the keys. That way you can have your touchpad and I can have my eraser head. But I would imagine that touchpad zealots would not stand for that. They would whine and scream like with the ThinkPads untill their choice interferes prominently with everything, something about being threatened by alternatives I guess.
45. Re:No excuse by phorm · 2005-01-20 04:44 · Score: 1
  
  That's because generally some of the functions needed by airsnort and others aren't supported by the original windows driver - or so I've read. Since NDISwrapper just loads the windriver, you're not able to get any extra functionality that an OS driver might include.
46. Re:No excuse by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 04:45 · Score: 0
  
  The problem is, the PC makers are cheap. Its actually very easy to offer Linux on a laptop...
  
  Think about it. With Dells, Apples, eMachines, etc - all the OS install is is an advanced type of Ghost. All they need to do is _possibly_ change the hardware specs just a little add whichever OS with the opensource drivers that most of us use for our current laptop configs and *poof*, you have a linux compliant laptop. In fact, since the hard drives are OS'd before they're even put into the machines, all they need to do is run a production of X% Linux hard drives and for the people that want linux, just grab from the other stack. Its really not that hard as this is done in the desktop realm right now.
  
  The major issues PC manufacturers don't want to deal with is changing the hardware. They want the cheapest from any vendor that follows the same rules that their normal setup uses. If they have to change that, it costs them money.
47. Re:No excuse by mrseigen · 2005-01-20 04:45 · Score: 1
  
  Actually, since either 10.2 or 10.3 the shell has been bash in Mac OS X. I wouldn't use tcsh now if my life depended on it.
  
  In addition, you can run KDE inside the "X11" application that comes with Mac OS X; it takes a bit of work but can definitely be done. It's slightly easier just to install XDarwin and do the same, though.
48. Re:No excuse by IgnoramusMaximus · 2005-01-20 04:50 · Score: 1
  
  A significant portion of people out there, myself included, can't stand clit mice. I find it impossible to do precision work with those things
  Neither can we do work with the touchpads. And your point?
  With a touchpad I can even play FPS's.
  Playing FPSs with a built-in pointing device is the last of the worries for most people buying laptops.
  Mice are still more precise, but with a mouse I have to move my hand off of the keyboard all the time.
  You surely jest. You mean your touchpad is positioned in between the G and H keys so that you can use it while maintaining the typist's positioning of hands over the keyboard? Wasn't that one of the major advantages of the eraser-head system? And wasn't the touchpad the one that causes constant random pointer motion due to your palms naturaly pressing on it and thus requiring some weird and rarely working kludges such as "palm detection" software?
  Also as I said, unlike you (being a typical touchpad zealot) who demands that I dont get to use what I want, I indicated that latpop makers should make the eraser-head/touchpad system a choice of the buyer.
49. Re:No excuse by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 04:51 · Score: 0
  
  IIRC 2.6.8 gives ACPI spec version 3 Without ACPI 3 the marketoid garbage piece of shit AKA Centrino hangs by powersaving to death. At least on the recent IBM laptop crop. So I am not amused that Intel market droids refused to endorse something that basically does not work.
50. Re:No excuse by rainman_bc · 2005-01-20 04:51 · Score: 1
  
  I know - makes wardriving suck though :) I just wish it was as nice as XP SP2's wireless UI - they got something right there. Admittedly I just discovered "iwlist wlan0 scan" so life won't be as bad at least :)
  
  --
  09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
51. Re:No excuse by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 04:53 · Score: 0
  
  That's pretty valid, considering power management blew in linux up until then.
  
  They banned linux so to speak because hey, would you want someone using your technology with something that doesnt utilize it, thus making it look bad? Now that linux can fully utilize the power saving features of the centrino, they could give less a rip.
  
  The author who posted this story to /. fails at conspiracy theories.
52. Re:No excuse by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 05:01 · Score: 0
  
  Actually the scroll wheel doesn't need you to use your twelve fingers or one foot, just drag your penis on the right side of it and it will scroll.
53. Re:No excuse by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 05:09 · Score: 0
  
  Perhaps you should check out NetworkManager ;)
54. Re:No excuse by JPriest · 2005-01-20 05:17 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  can it run linux?
  You can buy new Mac's preconfigured to dual boot OSX and Yellow Dog Linux (RH based) from Terra Soft
  
  --
  Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
55. Re:No excuse by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 05:37 · Score: 0
  
  No such luck with a clit mouse.
  
  I'm fairly experienced with women, but I had no idea that there was a mouse just for that. I think it would give the mouse using geek an advantage.
56. Re:No excuse by rikkards · 2005-01-20 05:41 · Score: 1
  
  That is one of the things I have noticed, most of these Centrino laptops have 1024x768 screens. I would like all of it but have a higher res lcd at least 1280x1024. Course this will cut into the battery time but I hated using the laptop on battery with the lower resolution
57. Re:No excuse by rpdillon · 2005-01-20 05:45 · Score: 1
  
  I love Macs, but don't own one. Thinking of picking up the new mini.
  
  Main box is a 64 bit running Gentoo, and my laptop is intel (psuedo-centrino) running Mepis from Los Alamos Computers (laclinux.com). I've never loved erasers, but I found that if you disable the touchpad tap-to-click under linux, the whole thing becomes FAR more bearable.
  
  I'm not sure exactly how to do that, though...I know SuSe does it by default, and I just put Mepis back on the laptop and have to remember what setting it was...
  
  In any case, disabling that "feature" should help you endure the touchpad hell.
58. Re:No excuse by vluther · 2005-01-20 05:46 · Score: 1
  
  theres a sony vaio 17 inch with 1920x1200 screen.. but it costs $2200 because sony calls it a media center laptop, comes with XP MC, dociking station with tv tuner and a bunch of other crap.. I almost bought it but didn't wanna pay that much :)
59. Re:No excuse by sloanster · 2005-01-20 05:58 · Score: 1
  
  As much as I'd love to see mainstream laptops built for Linux with full vendor support, the sad fact is that there *is* no real market for it.
  
  Thank you for your opinion. Opinions, however, are no substitute for actual knowledge. It's my pleasure to inform you that Hewlett-packard disagrees with you, and has been shipping laptops with SuSE Linux preinstalled for sme months now. HP is the first major vendor to get it right, as everything just works, out of the box: the wireless networking, suspend to disk, DVD watching (HP ships a licensed linux DVD player).
  
  Smaller vendors have been shipping linux laptops for some years. Dell has been cautiously offering linux on servers, but not workstations or laptops, and IBM has promoted linux in the server room but has never offered the option of a linux laptop. HP is the company that has actually followed through, and they deserve kudos.
60. Re:No excuse by michrech · 2005-01-20 06:24 · Score: 1
  
  And wasn't the touchpad the one that causes constant random pointer motion due to your palms naturaly pressing on it and thus requiring some weird and rarely working kludges such as "palm detection" software?
  
  Decided I had to take exception to that. The "typist" position you speak of does not include you resting your palms on the keyboard while typing. You are supposed to keep your palms in the air whilst you type.
  
  I took a typing class in 7'th, 8'th, and 9'th grade. Each teacher had the same lesson. Since I've become a computer tech, the various classrooms I've visited while typing classes were in session had the same lesson...
  
  I've grown to accept the touch pad, though I didn't like it at first. I can use either fairly well but prefer a seperate mouse where possible.
  
  --
  bork bork bork!
61. Re:No excuse by glenkim · 2005-01-20 06:50 · Score: 1
  
  Check out the synaptics software drivers for X. They include ALPS glidepoint support and a kernel patch. The only reason I'm not using it is because I've been too lazy to compile my kernel for it.
62. Re:No excuse by umpa · 2005-01-20 06:53 · Score: 1
  
  I should be able to call Dell or HP and say I want a laptop that runs Linux out of the box right?
  
  I don't think that the economies of scale are there in Dell's and HP's business yet to sell Linux items at no cost premium. When they offer no support there will be no reason for non-tech people to buy those laptops. The cost of a Windows licence is probably less than the costs involved in selling linux on all their hardware.
  
  Don't want support? Just want Redhat on your Dell? Well, most of us can do that already.
  
  I imagine that it is time for a small time vendor to start making 100% Linux compatible laptops and if they survive and make money then great
  
  How come no one ever mentions Emperor Linux? They've been putting Linux on laptops for a while and supporting it.
63. Re:No excuse by soupdevil · 2005-01-20 06:56 · Score: 1
  
  I just wish it was as nice as XP SP2's wireless UI - they got something right there.
  If only it worked with my Dell Centrino laptop. Unfortunately I have to use the kludgy Intel wireless interface.
64. Re:No excuse by IgnoramusMaximus · 2005-01-20 06:59 · Score: 1
  
  Decided I had to take exception to that. The "typist" position you speak of does not include you resting your palms on the keyboard while typing. You are supposed to keep your palms in the air whilst you type.
  Quite correct, however you failed to recognize the basic fact of typing: that we only type for short bursts and in between of these we rest our hands. Also you neglected to realize that a vast majority of typists do follow the "touch typing" rules only partially, and do in fact rest their palms while typing. That is why there is an entire industry out there booming with "gel wrist rests" etc, and that is why most modern laptops include forward palm "rest" area. The touchpads are interfering with that function. The eraser-head does not interfere with typing neither in proper "suspended wrist" mode nor it does in the much more common "relaxed wrist" mode employed by a vast majority of amateur typists.
65. Re:No excuse by DenDave · 2005-01-20 07:17 · Score: 1
  
  You are absolutely right! I have just recently got a I book for the same reason. I don't trust lenovo any further than I can throw it... I must say that the apple is a better deal than the IBM for $ , I paid 999 with 50 bucks for the extra ram. I am currently "wardriving" from a local bar grace a airport extreme..... Indeed OSX is funky doodles yet it ain't linux. Whilst I am learning to appreciate darwin I still like a good ol linux box, but no worries here either as we can just boot from firewire drives so a nifty lacie or even an ipod and linus your uncle..
  
  --
  -if at first you don't succeed, stay the heck away from paragliding.
66. Re:No excuse by lcsjk · 2005-01-20 07:27 · Score: 1
  
  Go to the library and read the washing machine info in consumer reports. Or - Go to Sears and get a Kenmore with water level control, hot/warm/cold wash /rinse control and regular/delicate cycles. Some newer machines also have a sound reducing package. Avoid bell and whistles. Your Dryer needs to have automatic moisture detection for end of drying, and normal/delicate controls.
  Now, you don't have to rely on just your parent's control. My I bought my 3rd washer about 3 years ago. The first and second each lasted about 15 years with no repairs.
67. Re:No excuse by michrech · 2005-01-20 07:43 · Score: 1
  
  I 'failed to recognize' those 'facts' because they don't matter. "Proper" typing *never* includes resting your wrists on the device on which you are typing. Never. The fact that people do it is not the fault of the touch pad developers.
  
  --
  bork bork bork!
68. Re:No excuse by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 07:46 · Score: 0
  
  Here's a start:
  
  Linux Certified
69. Re:No excuse by timeOday · 2005-01-20 07:50 · Score: 1
  
  I find it impossible to do precision work with those things. With a touchpad I can even play FPS's.
  Most trackpoint laptops have touchpads as well.
70. Re:No excuse by cayenne8 · 2005-01-20 07:52 · Score: 1
  
  " i agree most *nix users who want to go mobile go for a mac, most of the with 12-15in powerbooks. oh and i have to say it.. . . . so with these new laptops . . . can it run linux?"
  Yup...you can put Gentoo on it...works pretty good...dual book.
  It works good for the G3's...I think the newer Powerbooks, especially with airport extreme on them aren't fully supported yet...at least it was iffy a few month ago...
  
  --
  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
71. Re:No excuse by IgnoramusMaximus · 2005-01-20 07:54 · Score: 1
  
  The fact that people do it is not the fault of the touch pad developers.
  Let me get this straight... you are saying that the laptop developers should take "purist" approach and penalize people who do not follow the "proper" rules by installing a pointing device of dubious functionality just to frustrate the naughty indecent palm resting types? Aren't those people you are trying to punish called "customers", Herr OberSuspendedTouchTypingFuhrer?
72. Re:No excuse by rainman_bc · 2005-01-20 07:55 · Score: 1
  
  Not fond of responding to AC's, but NetworkManager Doesn't do a discovery of wireless networks.
  
  --
  09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
73. Re:No excuse by alpha_foobar · 2005-01-20 08:03 · Score: 1
  
  You can usually turn the damn touchpad off.... at least I have on my toshiba laptop... so I just always take a real mouse with me. The Dell I used to have came with a clit and a touch pad... and I am pretty sure you could turn off one or the other or both... but I never bother because I always plugged it into a docking station anyway. I'd assume you can turn off the touchpad on iBooks too... but prior to OS X, most people I knew that had macs had them because they 'looked pretty'. Though I'd agree with a previous post... I am very tempted by a darwin iBook.. one major bonus I can see is that the modem would probably work :) But I'd say that there is a very good business from making linux complient laptops... but you would want to have an international delivery model. I doubt that many cities around the world would have the demand to warrant this kind of product.
74. Re:No excuse by IgnoramusMaximus · 2005-01-20 08:12 · Score: 1
  
  You can usually turn the damn touchpad off
  Yes you can but that does not solve the two problems I have with that idea: a) I dont get to have any built-in pointing device left and b) the thing still bothers me when I rest my palms on the uneven surface represented by the touchpad and its edge. All I want is to have a damn choice of buying a laptop with the alternative pointing system but it seems that Touchpad Priests have successfully brainwashed the consumers to accept the not-so-flawless system as the only choice available.
75. Re:No excuse by rikkards · 2005-01-20 08:31 · Score: 1
  
  I have never been impressed with vaio. They are like the PC Magazine of laptops. All fluff and not worth the money you pay.
76. Re:No excuse by SunFan · 2005-01-20 08:32 · Score: 1
  
  I think there are variables that make a person prefer one over the other. For example, with a thouchpad, I can't position the mouse accurately to save my life. Other people don't have this problem, apparently. The result is that I won't buy a laptop for myself that has a touchpad, it is useless to me, but the huge popularity of touchpad laptops on the market, it is very likely I am a minority.
  
  --
  -- Microsoft is the most expensive commodity operating system and office suite vendor in the marketplace.
77. Re:No excuse by crimson30 · 2005-01-20 08:58 · Score: 1
  
  I'm a fairly fervant anti-touchpad fellow myself. I even have an obscure thread going on to further the cause (albeit aimed towards subnotebooks), and I wonder if you know of many laptops that come without touchpads?
  
  http://www.leog.net/fujp_forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID= 5916
78. Re:No excuse by Octorian · 2005-01-20 09:36 · Score: 1
  
  I was never a fan of the tap-click, on the eraser-head or the touch-pad. That's why it is the first feature I disable on a laptop. My last laptop was an eraser (Thinkpad), and my current one is a PowerBook (touchpad). In the end, neither is easier than the other, once you get used to it. (except when the eraser is moving slowly, and it wears your finger out)
79. Re:No excuse by Suicyco · 2005-01-20 09:42 · Score: 1
  
  Please... Whose the zealot?
  
  As I sit here typing on my vaio, with nary a nipple mouse in site, I can say I have never in my life rest my palms on the touch pad. Its designed that way. Or do you have only one hand and rest it squarely in the middle of the laptop? (my left and right palms are sitting firmly on the laptop right now, at least 2 inches on either side of the touch pad.)
  
  I was no fan of touchpads at first, but think the stupid nipple mouse is even worse. So you sit there typing like mad, mouse a bit, type like mad, mouse some more, etc. etc. so much that you can't move your hands away? How on earth do you use a PC? I mean, its so NATURAL, right? whatever.
80. Re:No excuse by japhmi · 2005-01-20 10:10 · Score: 1
  
  If Windows power consumption was in a par with Linux and the claims are simply a mask for discrimination I will never buy Intel again.
  
  Yes, because we all know how much Intel hates Linux. I mean, they've never done anything to help out Linux, such as being a co-founding member of the Open Source Development Lab
  
  --
  "Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys" P. J. O'Rourke
81. Re:No excuse by HiThere · 2005-01-20 10:43 · Score: 1
  
  You can get one from TerraSoft, if you want.
  
  Linux, unlike some OS's isn't particularly limited as to the hardware it can run on. Personally I am planning to buy my OS from TerraSoft(Yellow Dog) and an Apple Laptop...though I haven't selected the model yet.
  
  I will certainly get a mouse or a trackball to go with it, however, as I too find trackpads to be ...well, not quite unuseable, but quite difficult and clumsy. Though I'm not too taken with the eraserhead thingies either. And when laptops have built-in trackballs, they tend to be too small. The best mouse substitute I ever found was an early model Felix. Unfortunately, it only worked on the early Macs and started having driver problems around the time of the Mac 2. They redesigned it physically in a way that made it less useable, but continued to have short lived drivers (which was odd, as trackballs and mice never had that problem). I think they're out of business now, and if not they've certainly designed away all those features that made the early models so desireable. They WOULD have fit in a laptop, with only a slight redesign (the closing case would need to form a protective well around it).
  
  As it is, trackballs and mice seem to be the best interface devices.
  
  --
  
  I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
82. Re:No excuse by MoralHazard · 2005-01-20 10:53 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  Airsnort and Kismet both depend on a function called "RFMON mode", or just monitor mode. It's characterized by the card not transmitting any data, but receiving all 802.11 frames that it can sense. Every frame is passed to userspace--the card has no association to any access point, it's just a radio receiver and frame interpreter.
  
  Monitor mode allows apps like Kismet and Airsnort to work by making wireless traffic visible to userspace without having an association to an AP. For instance, how can you gather encrypted WEP traffic without already knowing the WEP key, unless you can listen and record the traffic without associating?
  
  The Windows driver model doesn't provide monitor mode facilities, and it probably never will. That's why NDISWrapper won't work with Kismet or Airsnort--you're restricted to Windows driver functions, which precludes using monitor mode.
  
  Virtually all 802.11 cards have the ability to function in such a mode, but not all Linux/OSS drivers support these abilities. The drivers that I know do support it include: hostap, prism54, madwifi--maybe more. Unfortunately for us Centrino people, neither the ipw2100 driver (The 802.11B-only device) nor its sister project, ipw2200 (802.11b/g) support monitor mode.
  
  That's why I'm pulling my ipw2200 MiniPCI card and replacing it with an Aetheros (MADWifi) tri-band card.
83. Re:No excuse by HiThere · 2005-01-20 10:58 · Score: 1
  
  Occasionally the articles are unreadable, perhaps because of the number of people trying to read them. I don't know about at the moment, but for awhile this article was unreadable.
  
  --
  
  I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
84. Re:No excuse by clymere · 2005-01-20 11:39 · Score: 1
  
  vendors like EmperorLinux already do this. Of course its really just Sony, HP, IBM, Dell or whatever laptops. But what they do is pre-install whatever flavor of linux you prefer, make sure that all of the laptops hardware is working in linux, and provide support afterwards if need be. Its a little extra(not TOO much), and its pretty much the same as buying a windows laptop from an OEM...everything works out of the box.
  
  --
  once you go slack, you never go back
85. Re:No excuse by RFC959 · 2005-01-20 11:49 · Score: 1
  
  "No such luck"? Try "no such configuring needed." My Thinkpads, of which I am quite fond, have three physical "mouse" buttons. And even on machines which have only two, it's trivial to turn on emulation of a third button by clicking both at once. I agree that the user of a theoretical machine with a clitmouse and only one button would be out of luck, but I've never seen such a thing. I have to wonder, though, just how much the ability to emulate multiple buttons figures into Apple's thinking, given that their OS is designed to be completely usable with only one.
86. Re:No excuse by DaracMarjal · 2005-01-20 11:50 · Score: 1
  
  Turn off the touchpad, or just turn off the tapping. The linux touchpad drivers (if they recognize your 'pad) will allow you to turn off tapping but still retain the gestures such as scrolling.
87. Re:No excuse by IgnoramusMaximus · 2005-01-20 13:56 · Score: 1
  
  Or do you have only one hand and rest it squarely in the middle of the laptop? (my left and right palms are sitting firmly on the laptop right now, at least 2 inches on either side of the touch pad.)
  That probably depends on your hand size, the way you type, your body positioning versus the laptop location etc. On every laptop I ever tried with a touchpad I always inevietably end up doing something to the thing and end up moving the mouse/clicking at random. It happened to me so many times on so many laptops (I do consulting) that the very sight of a touchpad makes me cringe.
  I was no fan of touchpads at first, but think the stupid nipple mouse is even worse.
  To each their own. I am not advocating banning touchpads, although it would seem the touchpad lovers seem to have successfully banned the eraser-head from many laptop brands. That is what irks me.
88. Re:No excuse by IgnoramusMaximus · 2005-01-20 14:06 · Score: 1
  
  I wonder if you know of many laptops that come without touchpads?
  Unfortunately I do not, I (along with many people in the companies I work with) used to be addicted to the IBM ThinkPad line. But ever since they caved in, and are now becoming Chairman Mao's Great Wall Metal Works company, things are looking even more depressing.
89. Re:No excuse by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 14:35 · Score: 0
  
  I got sucked into buying an iBook. It is a poor substitute for a Linux laptop. It is less than a 1 year old and on its third hard drive. I hate the the one button scroll pad. I tried Ubuntu Linux but No wireless and very poor battery performance. Currently it is running KDE via Fink. I will probably eBay the Turkey. I will either get the HP with SuSe or another wonderfull ThinkPad. OSX is only sorta Unixy and personally, I didn't love the OSX.
90. Re:No excuse by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 14:54 · Score: 0
  
  "IBM designed/built ThinkPads".
  
  Obviously you don't grasp how much is done by ODM and OEM nowadays. The T laptop line was already designed and built in Asia before the sale, which would be more of a name change...
91. Re:No excuse by MsGeek · 2005-01-20 15:11 · Score: 1
  
  Yes, the T series was designed in Asia...at IBM Japan. Just like the majority of the entire ThinkPad line, beginning with the 486-based 401 "Butterfly Keyboard" model. And yes, I am aware of the fact that the assembly has been done in China for years. Before then, ThinkPads were assembled at a Maquiladora in Mexico. However, a lot of the parts are made by IBM in Japan even now.
  
  --
  Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
92. Re:No excuse by ShieldW0lf · 2005-01-20 16:51 · Score: 1
  
  With a touchpad I can even play FPS's.
  
  I call bullshit! You can play a FPS with a keyboard if you're of a mind to, but real gamers know that its all about the fast twitch and cranking your mouse sensitivity to the max. Touchpads are not going to give you this like a clitstick will.
  
  Face it, touch pad users are in there with keyboarders and modem users. You're free frags.
  
  --
  -1 Uncomfortable Truth
93. Re:No excuse by cthulhu11 · 2005-01-20 21:33 · Score: 1
  
  Hopefully this will change as Linux continues to evolve into a more user friendly system Linux of course isn't a system. To have much of a market, the myriad incompatible packagings of it will need to consolidate, as well as things like KDE vs. GNOME etc.
94. Re:No excuse by dreamchaser · 2005-01-20 23:44 · Score: 1
  
  I don't think you fully understand how businesses run ;) There's a little thing called 'ROI'. If the powers that be don't see a return on their investment or at least a good strategic reason to do something, they don't do it.
95. Re:No excuse by reassor · 2005-01-21 05:34 · Score: 1
  
  This happend to me also 5 years ago.Redhat,Suse and Mandrake wont install or when installed didn't recognise several hardware pieces.Because of this bad experience,i have never again tried installing some Linux Distribution. But for the records,i use Knoppix on others Pcs to to some tasks (burn in testing,websurfing). Yes,it might be different now,but i have currently no reason to start over.
96. Re:No excuse by amorsen · 2005-01-21 06:06 · Score: 1
  
  Most trackpoint laptops have touchpads as well.
  IBM (or whatever they're called now) makes some very nice laptops which unfortunately only have clit mice.
  
  --
  Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
97. Re:No excuse by cakefool · 2005-01-27 22:12 · Score: 1
  
  how much did you pay for the first two? How much for this, and how long do you expect it to last?
  
  I am in that business, and interested.
98. Re:No excuse by lcsjk · 2005-01-28 20:14 · Score: 1
  
  The first washer lasted from about 1967 to 1983, and went through the clothes of three young children.
  The first dryer lasted from 1967 to 1998 and had had the idler pulley replaced twice (10 minutes, front panel accessible). THe second dryer is still operating and used about once per week.
  THe second washer lasted through three teenage girls and was used about once a day for nearly 5 years of its life. It lasted from 1983 until about 1999. The third is still in use but only once per week.
  I do not remember the prices, but I'm sure they haven't changed that much in the past 5 years.
  As I mentioned, the washer has three cycles and a water level control. I have used the heavy duty cycle only once I think. The wash/rinse temperature can be set to 4 or 5 combinations of cold/cold,warm/cold warm/warm,hot/cold. For cold wash, it is recommended to use the warm setting with but with the valves set to give almost cold.
  The dryer has an moisture sensor control and temperatures of hot, medium and delicate with a cooldown if you don't have the buzzer turned on. The buzzer is loud enough to cause screams if one is standing beside the dryer at the time.
  There were units with all kinds of controls, but the only thing I found that might be good was the sound reducing package on some units.
  One thing to be aware of. My washing machine evacuates the water faster than the drain pipe can let it out. At first it watered the floor, but I have a utility sink beside it and just let the outlet hose evacuate the water into it.
  
  Well, that's about it. Good luck!
99. Re:No excuse by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-30 07:36 · Score: 0
  
  All of those distributions have come a -long- way in 5 years. I'm a "despised end user" who uses pretty much just the GUI to fix things. Mandrake has done very, very well in it's last two releases. I agree that putting it on a notebook two years ago was a total pain, but it might be time for you to give it another go.
Reasoning? by ackthpt · 2005-01-20 03:08 · Score: 5, Interesting

It obviously makes very little difference technically what name is on the outside of the box,
To them it does, as they've been interested in projecting a particular value of the Centrino brand, being low power consumption.
but does this represent a major philosophical shift for the chipmaker,
Obviously not, did you actually RTFA?
or are they just leaping upon the nearest bandwagon in pursuit of a few extra bucks?
Most likely they have been promoting Linux, but not at the expense of their own brand of stuff. After all their marketing (possibly preceded by some actual innovation, but that's usually optional for any company) they want to ensure their brand lives up to their beliefs. If you were selling a line of Linux Laptops which didn't conserve power and ran the batteries down and some guy in an airport, surrounded by dozens of pairs of ears (some not connected to iPods) and started carrying on about what a piece of shit your Centrino laptop was because it drained the battery before you even got on your flight, well, that's the kind of damage lots of $ of advertising and spin can't undo.
I do have reservations about a company like Intel telling people what they can and can't do with their product, but if it's meet some specification to earn the right to logo the boxen, I think that's within the realm of acceptable business practice.

--

A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
1. Re:Reasoning? by TomRC · 2005-01-20 03:16 · Score: 0
  
  Wow, common sense amongst the paranoia and ignorance. What are you doing here?
2. Re:Reasoning? by Sophrosyne · 2005-01-20 03:17 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  It's almost rational to think that way, but in reality it probably has more to do with an agreement or understanding with Microsoft.
  No guy in an airport whining is going to blow centrino out of the market--
3. Re:Reasoning? by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 03:35 · Score: 0
  
  I was going to take your post in to consideration until I realized you're just an English nazi prick.
4. Re:Reasoning? by Technician · 2005-01-20 03:37 · Score: 1
  
  To them it does, as they've been interested in projecting a particular value of the Centrino brand, being low power consumption.
  
  That's what it looks like to a lot of people. It's more than that. Anybody can make a low power low performance processor and hook it up to a wireless NIC. There are three parts required in order for a manufacture to put the Centrino logo on a laptop.
  
  The explination direct from the manufacture explaining it is here;
  
  http://www.intel.com/products/notebook/centrino/ in dex.htm
  
  In a nutshell, it's the integration of power management, wireless, and a low power CPU while still providing high performance. The Mobile Pentium is just one of the 3 components. That's why there are some laptops with the Mobile Processor that may come with wireless, but are still not a Centrino system. If battery size and battery life are important to you, the Centrino does make a real difference.
  
  --
  The truth shall set you free!
5. Re:Reasoning? by ackthpt · 2005-01-20 04:22 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  It's almost rational to think that way, but in reality it probably has more to do with an agreement or understanding with Microsoft.
  That's way harsh, considering Intel has been very much a promoter of Linux, giving out compilers to their new processors, even the much maligned Itanium, and making technical information available to developers. You seem to forget Intel has much to lose, with a strong competitor in AMD, taking chunks of their market. As much as I like my AMD processor, it was AMD that not so long ago was selling themselves out to Microsoft, so keep your facts straight.
  No guy in an airport whining is going to blow centrino out of the market--
  Word of mouth is the most effective form of advertising and bad news travels fast, from an airport if can spread widely. Couldn't figure that out out, eh?
  
  --
  
  A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
6. Re:Reasoning? by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 04:28 · Score: 0
  
  My apologies. I have had time to cool down. You are not an English nazi prick. The simple fact is that I was ignorant and my name calling only confirms it.
7. Re:Reasoning? by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 04:31 · Score: 0
  
  Maybe not, but a couple articles about the guy whining could do some serious spin damage.
  
  Centrino is a marketing package more than a technology package (OK granted, that distinction is lost on the masses), but Intel really wants to avoid anything resembling "Centrino sucks" making it into the media (any media) or even the IT management decisions.
8. Re:Reasoning? by leifm · 2005-01-20 04:31 · Score: 1
  
  It seems to me that the Centrino brand is much like Microsoft's 'designed for' program, you can use their branding and marketing power but to do so you've got to meet a certain set of requirements. I don't see that as Intel telling anyone what they have to do with their product, they are simply saying this is what you have to do to take advantage of our branding campaign. Same as I can write Windows applications all day long, but if I want to use Designed for Windows XP I have to meet that program's criteria.
  
  --
  
  "Windows Me offers tremendous reliability and stability improvements..." -- Paul Thurott
9. Re:Reasoning? by mrseigen · 2005-01-20 04:48 · Score: 1
  
  Word of mouth pretty much killed the purchase of a Centrino laptop for me. I'm not going to bother with ndiswrapper and all the other garbage to get the wireless working when I could buy a Mac.
10. Re:Reasoning? by vondo · 2005-01-20 08:10 · Score: 1
  
  I do have reservations about a company like Intel telling people what they can and can't do with their product, but if it's meet some specification to earn the right to logo the boxen, I think that's within the realm of acceptable business practice.
  Right, there is nothing that stopped a vendor (from what I can tell) of taking a laptop with Pentium-M, 865 chipset, and wireless networking and selling it with Linux pre-installed. They just couldn't call it Centrino, even though it was the exact same thing.
You mean paradigm by filmmaker · 2005-01-20 03:08 · Score: 1

philosophical shift

You appear to have misspelled 'paradigm'. :)

But seriously, is there a difference between a company jumping on a market trend and a company having a "philosophical" shift?

--
I Want To Believe
1. Re:You mean paradigm by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 08:34 · Score: 0
  
  Actaully, philosophical is right. The shift is a change in philosophy, not a change in something that "serves as a pattern or model," from dictionary.com
  
  The philosophy is being a bit more linux friendly. The business model itself isn't really changing.
Linux ban? by Luguber123 · 2005-01-20 03:08 · Score: 0

Isn't that an anti competetive practice?
1. Re:Linux ban? by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 03:11 · Score: 0
  
  In the free market companies are free to leverage their power as they wish.
Intel sells chips... by fitten · 2005-01-20 03:09 · Score: 5, Insightful

I know a few folks who work at Intel (some are CPU designers). If you ask any of them, they will repeat the mantra: Intel sells chips. They don't care to who or for what purpose (this was before 9/11). If it is to someone who is going to run Linux or to someone who will run Windows, it doesn't matter because they sold that person some chips.
1. Re:Intel sells chips... by mzwaterski · 2005-01-20 03:16 · Score: 1
  
  Movie reference:
  I make car parts [chips] for the American working man [computer user] because thats who I am and thats who I care about!
  -Ray Zalinksy
2. Re:Intel sells chips... by uarch · 2005-01-20 04:07 · Score: 1
  
  Actually, Intel is a silicon manufacturing company. It sells silicon. It just happens to be in the form of chips :)
  
  Ask someone inside Intel why AMD is only a marginal threat and most of them will start talking about manufacturing quality and capacity.
3. Re:Intel sells chips... by ThousandStars · 2005-01-20 05:16 · Score: 1
  
  I wouldn't be surprised if Intel actually prefers Linux users, because spending less money on software means more money leftover for hardware. A $1,000 laptop minus the $75 MST (Microsoft Tax) might mean an upgrade to the next chip level.
4. Re:Intel sells chips... by niko9 · 2005-01-20 06:36 · Score: 1
  
  I know a few folks who work at Intel (some are CPU designers). If you ask any of them, they will repeat the mantra: Intel sells chips. They don't care to who or for what purpose (this was before 9/11). If it is to someone who is going to run Linux or to someone who will run Windows, it doesn't matter because they sold that person some chips.
  
  I'm not saying they are wrong, because you can't argue with one's opinion.
  
  But don't chips ansd software go hand in hand? Yeah they sell chips, but I'm sure Mr. Gates get access to more specs than Linus?
5. Re:Intel sells chips... by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 09:06 · Score: 0
  
  So why do they refuse to give out the specifications to talk to these chips?
I'm betting on the... by allanj · 2005-01-20 03:09 · Score: 1

bandwagon. Somehow, my belief in Intel's profound desire for a "few extra bucks" has never let me down.

--
Black holes are where God divided by zero
How banned? by Doc+Ruby · 2005-01-20 03:10 · Score: 3, Insightful

How did Intel enforce it's "Linux on Centrino" ban? Isn't that unfair competition? It stinks of Microsoft collusion...

--
--
make install -not war
1. Re:How banned? by dreamchaser · 2005-01-20 03:13 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Not everything is a conspiracy out of Richmond. The Centrino brand name is a trademarked property of Intel. They didn't say they wouldn't sell chips and chipsets to companies selling Linux based latops; they just would not license the Centrino lable to said vendors until now.
2. Re:How banned? by BlowChunx · 2005-01-20 03:23 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  Not everything is a conspiracy out of Richmond.
  
  Maybe not, but out of Redmond, definitely...
3. Re:How banned? by hackstraw · 2005-01-20 03:28 · Score: 1
  
  How did Intel enforce it's "Linux on Centrino" ban? Isn't that unfair competition? It stinks of Microsoft collusion...
  
  I guess they could severely raise their OEM pricing or ban them from selling their Centrino products entirely. I don't believe its a Microsoft collusion, Linux has always sucked in power management (maybe this is different with the 2.6.8 kernel as the article alludes to), and the Centrino is marketed as a low power/long battery life package with wireless. If none of that works, its not Centrino.
4. Re:How banned? by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 03:33 · Score: 0
  
  Not everything is a conspiracy out of Richmond.
  
  What conspiracy is coming out of Richmond? Are they planning to secede from the Union again?
5. Re:How banned? by Doc+Ruby · 2005-01-20 03:44 · Score: 1
  
  Right, but some things (an awful lot, actually) are conspiracies out of Redmond. Notably the conspiracy for which Microsoft was convicted, as a monopoly, including requiring PC manufacturers to bundle Windows, and exclude competitors, or lose their Windows certification. The ridiculous "remedies" to their monopoly status have given Microsoft a license to anticompete. I offer the exact conspiracy, proven in courts, which I suspect Microsoft is merely repeating in this case, with specific evidence to suggest it. You just mention the mechanism by which Intel would enforce their collusion. Is that all you've got?
  
  --
  --
  make install -not war
6. Re:How banned? by arootbeer · 2005-01-20 03:49 · Score: 0
  
  Seems pretty simple:
  
  "If you put the centrino name on your (pre-268) linux laptop, we will sue you out of existence and stop selling you our chips for violation of our restrictions on your purchase".
  
  It's the same as if the company had purchased export-restricted hardware or software and sent it to a restricted country; it's a violation of the terms of sale. The only difference is it's not a federal offense.
7. Re:How banned? by ectoraige · 2005-01-20 03:59 · Score: 1
  
  Oh RTFA and stop being so alarmist. They simply didn't allow the Centrino trademarks be used with laptops whose OS didn't take advantage of the low power consumption profile associated with the Centrino chipset.
  
  They spent marketing money pushing the power usage of the Centrino, they didn't want to have to add "* Microsoft Windows only" to all their ads. Imagine how twisted your knickers would have been then.
  
  Better had they spent the money developing the drivers for Linux, but that's life.
  
  They never stopped people running Linux with the Centrino, and now that it does work properly, they are happy to have their brand associated with it.
  
  --
  Vs lbh pna ernq guvf, ybt bss abj. Tb bhgfvqr. Syl n xvgr.
8. Re:How banned? by smithmc · 2005-01-20 04:02 · Score: 1
  
  How did Intel enforce it's "Linux on Centrino" ban? Isn't that unfair competition? It stinks of Microsoft collusion...
  
  Intel is a big enough player to be able to strong-arm (no pun intended) system vendors all on their own, without any help from MS.
  
  --
  Downmodding is the refuge of the weak. Don't downmod, make a better argument!
9. Re:How banned? by Doc+Ruby · 2005-01-20 04:09 · Score: 1
  
  Stopping the trademarks stops the sale of these machines both by stopping retailers from joining the expensive marketing campaign they finance with their wholesale orders, and gives Intel the ability to sue people who use the trademark anyway, directly stopping the sale. What's "alarmist"? I'm just pointing out how anticompetitive (against Linux) this is. You're the one who's getting all worked up about my knickers.
  
  --
  --
  make install -not war
10. Re:How banned? by Doc+Ruby · 2005-01-20 04:15 · Score: 1
  
  I agree. That's why I suspect Microsoft of getting Intel to stop Linux on Centrino - so MS can "compete" with Linux, without doing something. In the past, MS has enforced this kind of exclusivity on Intel by witholding the Windows installs that the HW maker needs to sell their PCs to the majority of the market.
  
  --
  --
  make install -not war
11. Re:How banned? by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 04:35 · Score: 0
  
  No, Richmond is correct. The conspiracy involves Circuit City, not Microsoft!
12. Re:How banned? by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 04:50 · Score: 0
  
  It wasn't a conspiracy out of Richmond, but out of Washington DC in '61. Those that still believed in the constitution and freedom regrouped in Richmond. If you could ask them, those from the Maryland legislature would agree that the constitution was suspended by Mr. Lincoln.
  
  Many of our rights that we have "lost" and that are wined about on slashdot started to be eroded by Mr. Lincoln and his cronies.
13. Re:How banned? by dreamchaser · 2005-01-20 05:16 · Score: 1
  
  Actually, the typo involved a geek who hadn't had his coffee when he posted. I meant Redmond. Richmond is evil too though!
14. Re:How banned? by HiThere · 2005-01-20 11:33 · Score: 1
  
  Mmnh. Put that way, how could I object to those actions. I had understood that the Centrino was the name attached to one of their products (though I admit to being hazy as to whether it was a chip, a chipset, or a motherboard, or just what).
  
  If all they were doing was controlling the use of a name... then that makes their actions quite reasonable.
  
  OK. I went to the Intel page on Centrino's, and it appears that your assertion is correct. All they were doing was regulating the use of their trademark. It's not (quite) proof, but it's quite close, so that's what I'll believe, and how I'll evaluate it unless contradictory evidence appears.
  
  --
  
  I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
15. Re:How banned? by ectoraige · 2005-01-21 03:18 · Score: 1
  
  Stopping the trademarks stops the sale of these machines both by stopping retailers from joining the expensive marketing campaign
  
  Repeat after me: Linux did not utilise the Centrino properly.
  
  One of the core messages of the marketing campaign was based on the performance and power consumption of the chip.
  
  Linux did not utilise these features properly, so the marketing campaign really wasn't relevant.
  
  Intel wanted customers to be assured that when they buy into the Centrino brand, their expectations would be met. Linux could not meet these expectations.
  
  they finance with their wholesale orders
  
  Nonsense. Buying something from a company does not give you any rights to use their trademarks, no more than it gives you a right to use their parking spaces.
  
  and gives Intel the ability to sue people who use the trademark anyway, directly stopping the sale.
  
  Er, yes. That is what a trademark is. Pat yourself on the back. Now, what's your point? A broadside on the nefarious IP world of trademarks?
  
  I'm just pointing out how anticompetitive (against Linux) this is.
  
  Again: Linux did not utilise the Centrino properly.
  
  Intel did not stop the sale of laptops.
  
  Intel did not stop the sale of laptops with linux installed.
  
  Intel did stop such laptops from carrying, and being advertised under, the Centrino logo.
  
  Linux now utilises the Centrino properly.
  
  Intel still does not stop the sale of laptops.
  
  Intel still does not stop the sale of laptops with linux installed.
  
  Intel now allows such laptops to carry, and be aversited under, the Centrino brand.
  
  You're the one who's getting all worked up about my knickers.
  
  I'm sure your knickers are lovely so I will make no further comment on them.
  
  --
  Vs lbh pna ernq guvf, ybt bss abj. Tb bhgfvqr. Syl n xvgr.
Who makes the best linux laptop? by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 03:11 · Score: 0

I bought a Dell with Inspiron with linux installed years ago.

Who makes the best linux laptop now?

I need a new one.
Microsoft by turgid · 2005-01-20 03:11 · Score: 0, Flamebait

Yes another sign that Microsoft's strangle-hold on the market is weakening. Woo hoo! :-)

--
Stick Men
1. Re:Microsoft by dpilot · 2005-01-20 03:17 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Before the Slashdot anti-Microsoft-bashing forces chime in, it's necessary to add:
  
  Microsoft deserves to participate in the market. They deserve the opportunity to sell their products and compete with other software makers. So do Novell, IBM, Lotus, RedHat, Oracle, etc.
  
  Microsoft is not "entitled" to its strangle-hold on the market. Nor are Novell, IBM, Lotus, RedHat, Oracle, etc.
  
  For that matter, Intel deserves the right to compete in the chip market, as do AMD and Via, but none of them deserve a strangle-hold, either.
  
  --
  The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
2. Re:Microsoft by turgid · 2005-01-20 03:48 · Score: 1
  
  I'll wager that Microsoft insisted that intel only allow its customers to brand laptops as "centrino" if they came with Windows preinstalled. It wouldn't be the first time they've done something dubious.
  You're right, though, everyone deserves to participate in the market on a level playing field.
  
  --
  Stick Men
Yeah, right. by scapermoya · 2005-01-20 03:11 · Score: 1, Troll

Kind of patronizing, no? What a joke, the idea that only now is linux 'mature' enough to be allowed next to the oh-so-holy Centrino brand. They are very, very clearly insensitive clods.

--
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun the frumious Bandersnatch.
1. Re:Yeah, right. by PornMaster · 2005-01-20 03:18 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  If this were the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval, and instead of Linux, it were Tide with Bleach Alternative, you wouldn't be up in arms about Good Housekeeping holding out for a lower percentage of phosphorous.
  
  Let go of the baggage every once in a while. You'd be surprised at how much less stress you have when you stop going around being pissed off.
  
  --
  500GB of disk, 5TB of transfer, $5.95/mo
Where's The Drivers? by Confessed+Geek · 2005-01-20 03:11 · Score: 1, Flamebait

I don't really care why, I just want open source drivers for those chipsets so I can automagically get wireless working on centrino laptops.
1. Re:Where's The Drivers? by pyros · 2005-01-20 03:16 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  I don't really care why, I just want open source drivers for those chipsets so I can automagically get wireless working on centrino laptops.
  You mean for the 2100 and 2200 chipsets?
2. Re:Where's The Drivers? by humuhumunukunukuapu' · 2005-01-20 03:17 · Score: 1
  
  Mine worked right off the bat!
  
  SUSE 9.2 pro on a Dell Insp8600 with the IPW2100 chipset...Shoot, the battery meter even worked, first time I have been so lucky! I like 9.2 :)
  
  --
  i saw the baby, and the baby looked at me
3. Re:Where's The Drivers? by Trillan · 2005-01-20 03:28 · Score: 1
  
  Wow, are they so different that they require entirely different source code bases? Or am I misunderstanding this (they don't seem to answer this in the FAQ)?
4. Re:Where's The Drivers? by Technician · 2005-01-20 03:45 · Score: 1
  
  I just want open source drivers for those chipsets so I can automagically get wireless working on centrino laptops.
  
  You mean like this?
  
  http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1606326,00. as p
  
  Google is your friend.
  
  Clip from the article;
  
  Intel Corp. posted the version 0.1 "pre-beta" Linux driver code for its 802.11b/g Wi-Fi on SourceForge last Friday, complementing the 802.11b Linux driver code that has already been made available. An Intel representative said the final driver code is tentatively scheduled for the second half of 2004.
  
  --
  The truth shall set you free!
5. Re:Where's The Drivers? by pyros · 2005-01-20 04:09 · Score: 1
  
  I imgine you could try using the wrong driver and report, but I'd rather just use the right driver. I never really cared for having one driver that handled umpteen different devices, makes me suspicious of bloat.
6. Re:Where's The Drivers? by dJCL · 2005-01-20 04:27 · Score: 1
  
  Yes, but those are aparently written mostly by intel and use an intel firmware. These drivers are still buggy on AMD64 based laptops running 64 bit kernels(not everyone has problems, but enough of them do, including me).
  
  --
  On Arrakis: early worm gets the bird. Magister mundi sum!
7. Re:Where's The Drivers? by Renegrade · 2005-01-20 05:23 · Score: 1
  
  > never really cared for having one driver that handled umpteen different devices, makes me suspicious of bloat
  
  Eh, don't worry about that. Everything is based off of RealTek 8139 chips anyways. SMC 1211tx? RTL8139. D-Link 538? RTL8139. nVidia nForce2 network controller? enhanced RTL8139 (8100-series). Intel Pentium 4? RTL8139. That light switch over there? RTL8139. Slashdot servers? A Beowulf cluster of RTL8139s. The universe? A huge collection of quantum-sized RTL8139s.
  
  Well, okay, that started getting silly around Pentium 4, but so many different models and products are really just the same thing with a different logo/model number/color.
  
  I'm more concerned about products that have different drivers for the same model number. I think, for example, some DLink cards are based off of the excellent tulip chip before a certain revision, and then the crappy rtl8139 chip afterwards. (I think it was the 530 card. A good warning sign is that it's suddenly $15 instead of $45)
8. Re:Where's The Drivers? by vranash · 2005-01-20 05:26 · Score: 1
  
  Why're you using an IPW 2100 or 2200 on an AMD laptop anyhow? Get a MiniPCI Prism based card instead silly :)
9. Re:Where's The Drivers? by Trillan · 2005-01-20 07:21 · Score: 1
  
  Oh, I expect different binaries. I'm just surprised that the source code is different enough to require different sourceforge projects. :)
10. Re:Where's The Drivers? by dJCL · 2005-01-25 05:56 · Score: 1
  
  That's probably the plan, just with the manufacturer there was not an option of going with anything but Intel for the wireless.
  
  I personall prefer prism, mainly because of the hostap drivers(which I use in my linux based router system).
  
  --
  On Arrakis: early worm gets the bird. Magister mundi sum!
Getting Back Market Share by teiresias · 2005-01-20 03:11 · Score: 2, Interesting

I think this is one of the steps in Intel's strategy to curb anymore inroads that AMD might be making into it's market share. AMD has had several good months at Intel's expense and it wouldn't be suprising if Intel was rolling out an aggressive plan to take it back.

One of those ideas might be aquiring the linux laptop market. As a person with a laptop with a centrino let me tell you it's a great chip, with it's best feature being the fan control and power consumption. To have chip the draws both the MS and Linux crowd would be a business oppurtunity to big to miss.

It's about time too. Been waiting to get rid of XP off this latop :)

--
-Teiresias
1. Re:Getting Back Market Share by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-28 07:30 · Score: 0
  
  FYI, Centrino is not a chip; it's a brand.
Not just Centrino brand... by teaeg · 2005-01-20 03:11 · Score: 5, Informative

Support for the wireless networking, the new a/b/g thing, is coming whithin 30 days. This is according to the news.com report here http://news.com.com/Intel+lets+Linux+into+Centrino +camp/2100-7344_3-5542514.html

--
A disgruntled economist
Wrong question! by Kid+Zero · 2005-01-20 03:13 · Score: 4, Insightful

You should ask "Will we also see Sonoma based, Linux laptops?"

My guess would be "No, we won't." Centrino is now the old technology, isn't it?
1. Re:Wrong question! by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 03:41 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  You should ask "Will we also see Sonoma based, Linux laptops?"
  
  My guess would be "No, we won't." Centrino is now the old technology, isn't it?
  
  Instead of guessing, why don't you read the article?
  
  FTA:
  "This time, Intel is moving faster. The company will support Sonoma's wireless networking with Linux within 30 days, Regis said. That support will cover both the dual-band Intel Pro/Wireless 2200 networking chip for 802.11b/g wireless networks and the tri-band Pro/Wireless 2915 chip for 802.11a/b/g networks."
2. Re:Wrong question! by anum · 2005-01-20 03:51 · Score: 1
  
  And they will still be called Centrino just with an updated chipset in them. You don't throw out millions in marketing just to make Linux use the old stuff.
  
  --
  I don't think, Therefore I'm not.
3. Re:Wrong question! by jrutley · 2005-01-20 05:09 · Score: 1
  
  There should be Linux support within 30 days of the release. It's in the article.
Drivers? by Ironsides · 2005-01-20 03:13 · Score: 3, Interesting

Does this mean that Intel will be releasing GNU/Linux drivers for their wireless chipsets (among other things)?

--
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
1. Re:Drivers? by wertarbyte · 2005-01-20 03:52 · Score: 1
  
  There are already drivers, check http://ipw2100.sf.net/ and http://ipw2200.sf.net/
  
  --
  Life is just nature's way of keeping meat fresh.
2. Re:Drivers? by maxwell+demon · 2005-01-20 03:55 · Score: 1
  
  No, there's no such thing as a GNU/Linux driver. Drivers (except for X11 graphiocs drivers) are a pure kernel thing, and there's no such thing as a GNU/Linux kernel, even not for RMS. So it's a Linux driver, which is used by the Linux kernel of the GNU/Linux operating systems.
  
  --
  The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
3. Re:Drivers? by merlin_jim · 2005-01-20 04:03 · Score: 1
  
  Does this mean that Intel will be releasing GNU/Linux drivers for their wireless chipsets (among other things)?
  
  Have you been smoking crack this morning?
  
  GNU/Linux drivers? no. Unless you mean GNU/Linux in the RMS sense.
  
  What I'm trying to say is they'll certainly release drivers. And those drivers will most certainly not be GNU (or any open source license)
  
  --
  I am disrespectful to dirt! Can you see that I am serious?!
4. Re:Drivers? by DShard · 2005-01-20 04:12 · Score: 1
  
  GP asked a legitmate question. What is the idiotic "picking a fight where there is none" responce? Apparently the finer points of naming conventions matters so much to people that we will needlessly talk about the crap even when we have _no_ vested interest to begin with. You, sir, are a moron.
5. Re:Drivers? by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 06:05 · Score: 0
  
  What I'm trying to say is they'll certainly release drivers. And those drivers will most certainly not be GNU (or any open source license)
  Have you been smoking crack this morning? GNU is not an "open source license". GNU GPL is.
6. Re:Drivers? by Panoramix · 2005-01-20 10:21 · Score: 1
  
  Yes, there are drivers for Linux, GPL and all, but those require a binary firmware released by Intel under a more restrictive license:
  
  LICENSE. You may copy and use the Software, subject to these conditions:
  This Software is licensed for use only in conjunction with Intel component products. Use of the Software in conjunction with non-Intel component products is not licensed hereunder. You may not copy, modify, rent, sell, distribute or transfer any part of the Software except as provided in this Agreement, and you agree to prevent unauthorized copying of the Software. You may not reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the Software. You may not sublicense the Software. The Software may contain the software or other property of third party suppliers.
  . . .
  
  That said, they work exceptionally well. On my IBM T42 (Intel PRO/Wireless 2200BG), at least, wireless is very fast, range is excellent, and it eats very little battery.
7. Re:Drivers? by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 16:41 · Score: 0
  
  > And those drivers will most certainly not be GNU (or any open source license)
  
  Intel already has released official wireless drivers (see ipw2200.sf.net), and they are all GPL'd.
  
  Check your facts next time.
Jebus, pull your heads out and look around.. by stratjakt · 2005-01-20 03:13 · Score: 5, Insightful

Before you get all up in arms about Intel "banning linux" and being all evil and monopoly, blah blah, realize that Intel is a member of OSDL - Intel pays Linus to write linux.

This was all about not having their brand and logo associated with something that didn't work. This is a pat on the back for the kernel hackers who managed to get good solid support for the various Centrino components into the kernel.

So just take it for what it is. You can now say that linux officially works on Centrino laptops.

--
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
1. Re:Jebus, pull your heads out and look around.. by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 03:18 · Score: 0
  
  Agreed. In my opinion, this is more of a 'fluff' article than an actual change in the Intel culture and marketing scheme. All it states is that previous versions of the linux kernel didn't meet the specifications that Intel put on the chip to use the Centrino name. Now, the real underlying issue is that Intel obviously wrote the specifications hand in hand with Microsoft originally to be sure that the most popular laptop OS would support that functionallity. Just makes good business sense to me.
2. Re:Jebus, pull your heads out and look around.. by MooseGuy529 · 2005-01-20 04:41 · Score: 1
  
  You can now say that linux officially works on Centrino laptops.
  
  This is absolutely true. Just recently, the combination of kernel power management (ACPI) and CPU throttling (SpeedStep), and the wireless drivers have become mature enough for things to work: ACPI is much more mature--in the older 2.4.x and even 2.6.7 kernels I had used, things Oops'ed left and right, locked up my system, and worse, and now everything just works. CPU throttling is supported through the kernel, which now has "ondemand", a policy to automatically raise the CPU speed when required, that can replace userspace daemons like speedfreqd for simple policies (I still prefer speedfreq). Lastly, the Intel PRO Wireless 2200 driver has now progressed from "adding essential features" (for example, 0.2 didn't have transmit or receive functionality) to "feature freeze and debugging mode". It's now at version 0.21. The 2100 driver is already past 1.0, and supports rfmon, which is in the queue of things for 2200 after it is relatively debugged.
  
  Basically all the parts have come together, and my Asus M2400Ne now works like a real laptop. It actually works a little better than under Windows. I really can't blame Intel from withholding the brand name from Linux until today, since my first forays into the Centrino features were wildly unsuccessful, and did give me a bad taste in my mouth about it. Luckily, they've found some non-profit-destroying way to share wireless specs (basically someone writes a new firmware for the driver team, who then writes drivers... the result is that they have a very tight integration of software, firmware, and hardware and can easily add features.) All in all, I'm really happy with how it works.
  
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3. Re:Jebus, pull your heads out and look around.. by ThousandStars · 2005-01-20 05:20 · Score: 1
  
  Exactly. Those of you curious should check out the About OSDL page, which lists Intel as a founding member.
  Keep an eye on the North American members page, however, because that also lists AMD. So the two biggest x86 vendors both support Linux, at least to some degree.
4. Re:Jebus, pull your heads out and look around.. by geeksgirl · 2005-01-20 05:49 · Score: 1
  
  "You can now say that linux officially works on Centrino laptops."
  
  Had my Centrino-running-Ubuntu laptop a few months now. Finally I can take it out in public. Phew!
  
  --
  "I'm going to worry like hell and that's not an easy job, believe me" - Lu-Tze "Thief of Time"
5. Re:Jebus, pull your heads out and look around.. by stratjakt · 2005-01-20 07:35 · Score: 1
  
  No, you can finally stick a "Centrino inside" sticker on it, and resell it, without getting sued for misusing intel's trademark.
  
  --
  I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
6. Re:Jebus, pull your heads out and look around.. by HiThere · 2005-01-20 11:25 · Score: 1
  
  What it does is tell us that Intel had previously enforced a policy that some of their chips could not be sold on a product of a certain kind that had Linux installed.
  
  And that they aren't going to do that anymore. For this set of chips.
  
  How you feel about a company that does that is, of course, up to you. I accept that they had reasons that they found perfectly acceptable. That doesn't translate into "that I would have found perfectly acceptable".
  
  That an 800 lb. gorilla might occasionally do something that you consider laudable doesn't deny that if he feels like it, he might walk right through your front door without opening it. And it doesn't deny that yesterday he did this other thing that was quite unpleasant. But he's an 800 lb. gorilla, so what can you do? And now you're demanding that I be pleased?
  
  --
  
  I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Bandwagon or not... by keiferb · 2005-01-20 03:14 · Score: 3, Insightful

Who cares? Isn't leaping onto a bandwagon a show of support? If they think they can make money off of it, that generally means they believe it's A Good Thing(tm).
Wireless problems by lukesky · 2005-01-20 03:14 · Score: 1, Interesting

I think that the reason Intel initially had the ban, was that the wireless chipset in the centrino laptops had no Linux drivers for a long time. (Am writing this on a machine with a Centrino "Intel® PRO/Wireless 2200BG" wireless chipset.

But now the drivers are mature enough for most use, so there is really no need to have a ban anymore.

Btw. in order for a computer to bear the centrino mark, it needs to use Intels own chipset for wireless etc. Really clever: Use a lot of money on comercials for centrino technology and then require that everything within the box is made by your company. ;-)

--
-- look sir droids...
1. Re:Wireless problems by vranash · 2005-01-20 05:30 · Score: 1
  
  Funny thing is, I have a centrino laptop, most of the hardware in it ISN'T intel... no eepro100(rtl8139), some 3rd party brand audio codec, etc, but it's still got centrino emblazoned across the side... Centrino was really just a way for intel to push the IPW2x00 series wireless cards, since they supposed either bought up or bought majority shares in whoever it was who was manufacturing them.
Linux could really improve in wireless by digitalgimpus · 2005-01-20 03:19 · Score: 3, Insightful

This is isn't flamebait... just someone who uses linux occasionally (prefers Mac OS X).

No mater what system I use, I've really never had a simple time getting WiFi working. Always several steps... always ugly.

IMHO Linux would have a bit better marketing if it focused on being as close to 0Config as possible. There's a ton of potential.

The best experience I've had is with Knoppix. And even that wasn't perfect.
1. Re:Linux could really improve in wireless by cabazorro · 2005-01-20 04:25 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  Ditto here.
  I gave an honest shot to get WI-FI working on my HP PAvillion z220 w/pcmcia card and failed. I even dloaded the latest orinoco wi-fi drivers which activate my card all right but the traffic is dropped/ignored.
  
  Plus R.H 9.0 apmd (advance power management ) couldn't figure out the bios to administer battery power. Basically I was pulled back to windows.
  
  WI-FI and Linux is reminiscent of soundcards and Linux in most of the 90's. I bought the HP Pavillion explicitly to run RH 9.0 and now Im back to XP battling patches and spyware.
  
  My advise to those who want to run unix-like OS on
  a laptop...by a Mac.
  
  --
  - these are not the droids you are looking for -
2. Re:Linux could really improve in wireless by RainFX · 2005-01-20 05:24 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, it's not fantastic. I've gotten two linux boxes working with wireless. The madwifi drivers were horrific to set up; took me weeks. But Intel's ipw2100 drivers (which have been around for a while) were relatively easy. Biggest bugbear has to be setting the correct WEP key.
3. Re:Linux could really improve in wireless by siskbc · 2005-01-20 05:40 · Score: 1
  
  My advise to those who want to run unix-like OS on a laptop...buy a Mac.
  unix-*like* my ass...that's FreeBSD under there, probably closer to the original ATT/Berkeley Unix than anything around today.
  Oh, and to respond to your advice, I already did ;)
  
  --
  -Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
4. Re:Linux could really improve in wireless by WMD_88 · 2005-01-20 13:36 · Score: 1
  
  I'm using wireless with the linux-wlan-ng driver. For months I couldn't get it to work, but that turned out to be because the driver didn't have an "ident" line or something for my card (Linksys WUSB11v3).
  Once that got added, I was able to just add the alias to /etc/modules.conf, and hotplug would turn the card on. The card came with a script to set my WiFi settings, then I made a small script to set up ifconfig.
  Despite the repuation of the 'ng drivers for being unstable, I think they're working better than the Windows ones. (fewer dropouts)
Re:X driver by Nosf3ratu · 2005-01-20 03:20 · Score: 1

Huh?
What the hell video card do you have?
I find it hard to believe there are no drivers for it under XFree.

--
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori
They just want to make some bucks by maitas · 2005-01-20 03:21 · Score: 1

The reason every single enterprise exists is for profit. There are only three enterprises that doesn't have profit as its main reason of existance. Those are call "heroic" enterprises. Mainly, army, religion (church), and health (although in USA this last one is a false statement, since there exists many hospitals that doesn't pay taxes but have serveral millions of dollars in the bank, when they should only have as litlle as necesary to subsist).
1. Re:They just want to make some bucks by Aneurysm9 · 2005-01-20 04:35 · Score: 1
  
  Religion not for profit?!? Can I have some of what you're smoking?
  
  --
  There was Cowboy Neal at the wheel of a bus to never-ever land.
2. Re:They just want to make some bucks by eobanb · 2005-01-20 07:07 · Score: 1
  
  What about Canonical, Limited?
  
  --
  Take off every sig. For great justice.
3. Re:They just want to make some bucks by tiks · 2005-01-20 08:37 · Score: 1
  
  a tru statement, yes almost every business is for profit but i find this argument too general, it cam practically be used to justify almost any 'legally correct' action by them
  
  --
  We are always correct.. even when we realize we were wrong.
Uh... I already have one by prospero14 · 2005-01-20 03:22 · Score: 2, Insightful

I already have a Centrino laptop running linux. All this announcement means, I guess, is that now manufacturers can sell centrino laptops with linux pre-installed. But since most linux users just buy the laptop they want, and then put the OS they want on it, I don't see what difference this announcement makes.
1. Re:Uh... I already have one by stoled · 2005-01-20 03:31 · Score: 1
  
  I have been running Gentoo Linux on my Centrino notebook since I got it. The power consumption in Linux is a bit higher than in Windows, but it is nice to use the OS I want to. The open source wireless driver for the 2100 card is actually better than the Windows version - at least in my experience. In Windows it randomly drops the connection, but I have not had a single problem with the WiFi driver in Linux.
2. Re:Uh... I already have one by TeknoHog · 2005-01-20 04:45 · Score: 1
  
  But since most linux users just buy the laptop they want, and then put the OS they want on it, I don't see what difference this announcement makes.
  I think it makes a huge difference that you can buy a laptop without supporting the organized crime that is Microsoft.
  
  --
  Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
Re:X driver by pyros · 2005-01-20 03:22 · Score: 1

I'm curious what graphics chipsets have you been running? Also the last time you ran Linux on a laptop.
b) Few extra bucks by beef+curtains · 2005-01-20 03:23 · Score: 1

Sorry, I thought this was a /. poll.

--
Just once I'd like someone to call me 'Sir' without adding 'You're making a scene.'
Re:X driver by slick_rick · 2005-01-20 03:24 · Score: 3, Insightful

Funny, I have purchased three laptops this year and they all of them worked just fine with recent XFree builds. Then again I'm a fairly serious computer user, I [GASP] googled the laptops for their linux compatability before I purchased them! If you don't know how to google, you can always just pop in a recent Knoppix CD if you can find the exact model at a local B&M store.

Come to think of it, of all the linux users I know, I don't know even one who has needed a commercial X server in years.

--
apt-get install redhat please god - Me (take it easy, I love Debian)
a few extra bucks? by Servo · 2005-01-20 03:27 · Score: 1, Troll

Heaven forbid a for-profit corporation do something in an attempt to make money.

--
A slip of the foot you may soon recover, but a slip of the tongue you may never get over. -Benjamin Franklin
1. Re:a few extra bucks? by _Sprocket_ · 2005-01-20 04:34 · Score: 1
  
  Heaven forbid a for-profit corporation be expected to DO something to make that money.
  
  Now - what was your point?
2. Re:a few extra bucks? by Servo · 2005-01-20 10:25 · Score: 1
  
  If you don't like the product, or don't agree with the company, don't buy it. Problem solved. If it is worth it to you to spend the extra money, then buy it. Problem solved.
  
  --
  A slip of the foot you may soon recover, but a slip of the tongue you may never get over. -Benjamin Franklin
3. Re:a few extra bucks? by _Sprocket_ · 2005-01-20 11:41 · Score: 1
  
  I see. If I don't like something, I shouldn't be expressing that disatisfaction. Especially if that might be interfering with someone's profit. Thanks for allowing me the choice of whether I do actually buy it or not. Wait... doesn't that interfere with that profit? I should probably just buy it just in case.
4. Re:a few extra bucks? by Servo · 2005-01-21 02:59 · Score: 1
  
  My point wasn't that you shouldn't whine like an ass, which feel free to continue doing, but that if don't like the product or the price, don't buy it. If the extra money is worth it to you, then go for it. There are alternatives out there. If people are willing to pay the extra money to get a brand name because it works with Linux and is supported by the manufactuer, I see no harm done. The only way they are going to lower the price is because of competition, not a couplee of whiny ass consumers who turn around and buy the product anyway.
  
  --
  A slip of the foot you may soon recover, but a slip of the tongue you may never get over. -Benjamin Franklin
5. Re:a few extra bucks? by _Sprocket_ · 2005-01-21 04:17 · Score: 1
  
  Wow. You finally have a point. Congrats.
  
  It appears we got different messages out of the article. What I saw was a question: is this marketing fluff or real support? And while there's the usual dross in responce, there's also some good information that shows some gen-u-ine support for Linux by Intel.
  
  Why is this important? Because without at least SOME degree of support from Intel, getting this hardware to work properly with Linux is a tough job. With Intel's help, it is much more likely that my hardware investement will continue to support the platform I want.
  
  Incidently, I find it interesting that you concider sharing information about a product is being "whiny ass consumers".
intel has become "oss friendly" by diegocgteleline.es · 2005-01-20 03:28 · Score: 4, Interesting

~/kernel/stable # grep -i "@intel.com" MAINTAINERS | wc -l
11

Intel has a couple of programmers taking care of ACPI, they've merged their own GPL drivers for their network cards, they've published specs of SATA hardware or documentation of mainboard chipsets, drivers for their graphics chipsets, there're intel guys at the kernel mailing list...I buy Intel just for how good linux support is having lately. No cookie for you, amd:
grep -i "@amd.com" MAINTAINERS | wc -l
0
1. Re:intel has become "oss friendly" by stratjakt · 2005-01-20 03:32 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Intel and AMD are both members of OSDL.
  
  Any "this one is more OSS-friendly than that one" insinuations you hear would pretty much be nothing but fanboy bullshit.
  
  AMD doesn't have anything to maintain so far, since they have up until now just been doing CPUs, not whole-board solutions.
  
  --
  I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
2. Re:intel has become "oss friendly" by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 03:58 · Score: 0
  
  AMD has done some chipsets in the past though not many mobos used them.
Apple Does by kuwan · 2005-01-20 03:29 · Score: 1

I think that Apple makes the best laptops in the world and if you want to put Linux on them you can. Yellow Dog Linux seems to be a good choice if you go this route. Though it appears that Airport Extreme drivers aren't yet working.

But if you've got OS X then what do you need Linux for? Most Linux software can be recompiled for use on Mac OS X.

--
Join the Pyramid - Free Mac Mini

--
infested with jello like fishes no melotron wishes
1. Re:Apple Does by norkakn · 2005-01-20 03:51 · Score: 1
  
  does YDL support the airport extreme?
2. Re:Apple Does by kuwan · 2005-01-20 04:17 · Score: 1
  
  I did some checking on the YDL iBook and PowerBook support pages and Airport Extreme is not yet supported (which seems to be common for 802.11g on Linux), though standard 802.11b cards are supported.. It also looks like there is no 3D acceleration (but 2D acceleration works) for the Graphics card and putting the computer to sleep only partially works.
  
  So I may have been wrong initially, it looks like there's still some work to be done to make Apple's laptops fully supported on Linux. But you've still got a great Unix OS with Mac OS X if you can't get Linux to run as well as you want.
  
  --
  Join the Pyramid - Free Mini Mac
  
  --
  infested with jello like fishes no melotron wishes
3. Re:Apple Does by Vincent+Bernat · 2005-01-20 04:27 · Score: 1
  
  Airport Extreme likely will never be supported. And Apple does not care at all. There is a bunch of 802.11g cards supported by Linux and even a greater number for x86 platform since you can use ndiswrapper.
WARNING: attitude storm in progress by CrosseyedPainless · 2005-01-20 03:30 · Score: 1

Man, I thought I was a Linux zealot...

Actually, I'm just glad that Centrino support has developed to this point. There are a lot of interesting Centrino laptops out there, and since I'm shopping around for laptops (in a half-assed way), this is good news. Once Intel's name is on Centrino-enabled Linux, support should only improve.
Who cares? by mkop · 2005-01-20 03:30 · Score: 1

The centrino brand means nothing to me, except it has intels wireless built-in. I personally would not pay a premium name brand like that.
1. Re:Who cares? by tmbailey123 · 2005-01-20 07:11 · Score: 1
  
  The "premium" I refuse to pay is the Micro$oft tax that is imposed on almost every retail computer sold in the USA today (except apple).
  
  I was comtemplating buying a Linspire laptop from Wal-Mart after the 1st of the year, however they are not listed on their website anymore.
  
  Mac is great, but I hate paying top dollar for an asset that will depreciate almost 50% in two years.
  
  I guess I need to change my account name to "cheapass" 8-)
  
  -mike
Anyone surprised? by Dracolytch · 2005-01-20 03:31 · Score: 2, Interesting

I'm surprised that they haven't done this sooner. Microsoft has basically shown Intel that they have no loyalties to the chipmaker anymore... I don't see why Intel would restrict their potential market by limiting which OSs their chips are allowed to run. A one-sided loyalty is baaaad business.

~D

--
This sig has been enciphered with a one-time pad. It could say almost anything.
1. Re:Anyone surprised? by rhpot1991 · 2005-01-20 04:41 · Score: 1
  
  I'm not sure how you can claim that M$ has no chipmaker loyalties. Clearly they have picked Intel over AMD with their decisions to push back the Winxp 64 release dates till Intel can come out with a product to compete with the AMD64.
Wintel paradigm. by sjrstory · 2005-01-20 03:34 · Score: 1

This is another nail in the coffin of the Wintel paradigm.
WLAN drivers by wertarbyte · 2005-01-20 03:34 · Score: 4, Informative

For some time now, linux drivers for the ipw2200 and older ipw2200 wlan chipsets have been usable. ipw2200 is now moving towards 1.0, beginning with a feature freeze.

--
Life is just nature's way of keeping meat fresh.
1. Re:WLAN drivers by dJCL · 2005-01-20 04:32 · Score: 1
  
  But will the 1.0 version support AMD64 laptops fully? Some work, some don't, unfortunatly mine does not work with the drivers.
  
  --
  On Arrakis: early worm gets the bird. Magister mundi sum!
2. Re:WLAN drivers by wertarbyte · 2005-01-20 04:37 · Score: 1
  
  I doubt that there are Centrino notebooks out there powered by AMD64 processors.
  
  --
  Life is just nature's way of keeping meat fresh.
3. Re:WLAN drivers by miffo.swe · 2005-01-20 04:51 · Score: 1
  
  I bought a dell d505 laptop and i was a bit anxious about getting everything to work. It has a ipw2200 wlan mini pci nic. Gladly everything worked out of the box except the ipw2200 wich worked perfectly after i had d/l the right firmware.
  
  It would be nice if the firmware could be easier to install, like nvidias drivers. I dont think any ordinary user would be able to do what i did. Its pretty hard to see wich version a specific module has and what firmware i should load.
  
  --
  HTTP/1.1 400
4. Re:WLAN drivers by dJCL · 2005-01-20 05:22 · Score: 1
  
  Nope, but there are AMD64 laptops with Intel Wireless cards in them... Believe me, I have one.
  
  Why someone would decide to build it that way is beyond me, I assume price. But it just does not work in linux for me, and there is no hint of winxp64 drivers last I checked...
  
  I'm thinking that I will probably replace the miniPCI card wireless with a card based on a prism or similar chipset, probably something that supports running in AP mode for then I want to be my own access point.
  
  Anyone want a used IPW2200BG?
  
  --
  On Arrakis: early worm gets the bird. Magister mundi sum!
5. Re:WLAN drivers by Michael+the+thief · 2005-01-20 06:12 · Score: 0
  
  Those drivers suck, for all intents and purposes. They do *not* support monitor mode which is necessary to do a lot of things, including war driving. Intel's official drivers for ipw2200 will be a much needed improvement over what we have.
  
  --
  Michael Sims hijacks domains.
6. Re:WLAN drivers by bhtooefr · 2005-01-20 07:15 · Score: 1
  
  They're not official, but here's what the linked site says:
  
  This project was created by Intel to enable support for the Intel PRO/Wireless 2200BG and 2915ABG Network Connection miniPCI adapters.
  
  Again, NOT official, but CREATED by Intel. Also, it appears that the 2200BG and the 2915ABG use compatible chipsets, seeing as ipw2200 is being used for the 2915ABG.
7. Re:WLAN drivers by Panoramix · 2005-01-20 10:46 · Score: 1
  
  Those drivers suck, for all intents and purposes.
  
  Do they, really? And here I was all smug and happy with them. You know, not having any troubles at all to install and use them, and the wonderful speed and range of the thing...
  
  They do *not* support monitor mode which is necessary to do a lot of things, including war driving.
  
  Man. I never knew I needed "monitor mode" for anything. I did need to iwlist wlan0 scanning a couple of times, and it worked perfectly. But now that you mention it, it seems that ipw2100 already has this "monitor mode". Don't know about ipw2200 (the one in my laptop doesn't, I just tried, but it's already a bit old).
  
  Intel's official drivers for ipw2200 will be a much needed improvement over what we have.
  
  But... as far as I know, both ipw2x00 at sf.net were created by Intel to develop support for these cards. What other official driver would that be, that you're waiting?
8. Re:WLAN drivers by Michael+the+thief · 2005-01-20 11:08 · Score: 0
  
  You don't know what you're talking about. Monitor mode is necessary for software such as kismet, and lacking it is a huge point of disappointment with the driver. Most other drivers support that function, as it is used by a lot of software used for monitoring networks.
  
  "But... as far as I know, both ipw2x00 at sf.net were created by Intel to develop support for these cards. What other official driver would that be, that you're waiting?"
  
  Intel itself contributes very little code to this project. It was only created by intel, and intel provides *no* documentation or specs for the card to the people who develop that driver. That is why Intel is releasing their own driver for the card in 30 day's time.
  
  Please know what the fuck you're talking about before entering 'pretentious cock' mode that seems so prevalent on slashdot. You smug fucker.
  
  --
  Michael Sims hijacks domains.
9. Re:WLAN drivers by Panoramix · 2005-01-20 12:16 · Score: 1
  
  You don't know what you're talking about. Monitor mode is necessary for software such as kismet, and lacking it is a huge point of disappointment with the driver. Most other drivers support that function, as it is used by a lot of software used for monitoring networks.
  
  I see. What I don't see is how this amounts to "suck, for all intents and purposes." Pretty much all I care about is to have a working connection at the office, at my customers' wireless network, and at home. I think that's what most people needs, so I would say that the drivers work perfectly well for most intents and purposes.
  
  Intel itself contributes very little code to this project. It was only created by intel, and intel provides *no* documentation or specs for the card to the people who develop that driver. That is why Intel is releasing their own driver for the card in 30 day's time.
  
  Well. Not that I don't believe you, but something doesn't quite add up there. Some reference would be appreciated.
  
  See, I just come from Intel's site, where they link to the sourceforge projects as the "development site", and state that "Intel has assigned a public maintainer who will work with the Linux community," and "support for this driver will be provided through the open source project." See for yourself. So it looks to me that your "official" driver, if there ever is such a thing, will be nothing more than a snapshot from the sf.net project, probably taken after development freezes and a couple betas are out.
  
  Anyway, the reason I'm wasting my time continuing this conversation is to somewhat counter your unfair and unwarranted putdown of this software. That's because to me it works perfectly well, I'm very grateful that the developers, and Intel itself, went out of their way at all to make it work, and I don't want them to feel like their work is not appreciated, that all their users are pipsqueak ingrates as yourself.
  
  Please know what the fuck you're talking about before entering 'pretentious cock' mode that seems so prevalent on slashdot. You smug fucker.
  
  My, my, aren't we a little touchy today, no? Bad day at school, kid?
10. Re:WLAN drivers by Concertina · 2005-01-20 12:46 · Score: 1
  
  Those drivers suck, for all intents and purposes. They do *not* support monitor mode which is necessary to do a lot of things, including war driving. Intel's official drivers for ipw2200 will be a much needed improvement over what we have.
  
  Which drivers suck?
  
  The ipw2100 drivers have supported monitor mode since version 0.44 ( currently at version 1.02).
  
  The ipw2200 drivers are much newer. Contribute the monitor mode code yourself if you're unhappy with the speed of development.
  
  Alternatively, if you're talking about using ndiswrapper plus the windows drivers, please include a little more context in your post.
  
  That is all.
11. Re:WLAN drivers by Michael+the+thief · 2005-01-20 13:16 · Score: 0
  
  You are posting just to see yourself type. Read the fucking article to see about Intel's official linux driver for ipw2200: http://news.com.com/Intel+lets+Linux+into+Centrino %20+camp/2100-7344_3-5542514.html
  
  How is that for "context"? Learn how to fucking read next time before making an ass of yourself. Stupid prick.
  
  --
  Michael Sims hijacks domains.
12. Re:WLAN drivers by Michael+the+thief · 2005-01-20 13:19 · Score: 0
  
  Dear prick,
  
  The ipw2200 drivers do not support monitor mode. Read the fucking project page next time.
  
  I do not program. I am a user. Furthermore, the specs and documentation for the card have not been released. How the fuck could I implement something not documented even if i wanted to? Thank you, and please shut the fuck up.
  
  --
  Michael Sims hijacks domains.
13. Re:WLAN drivers by Panoramix · 2005-01-20 14:30 · Score: 1
  
  You are posting just to see yourself type. Read the fucking article to see about Intel's official linux driver for ipw2200: http://news.com.com/Intel+lets+Linux+into+Centrino %20+camp/2100-7344_3-5542514.html
  
  Really. From the article: "This time, Intel is moving faster. The company will _support_ Sonoma's wireless networking with Linux within 30 days, Regis said."
  
  I don't suppose you noticed that the word "support" is a link to ipw2100.sourceforge.net.
  
  How is that for "context"? Learn how to fucking read next time before making an ass of yourself. Stupid prick.
  
  Of course, whatever you say, boy. I'm on my way to learn to read, so I won't make an ass of myself next time.
14. Re:WLAN drivers by Concertina · 2005-01-20 14:54 · Score: 1
  Dear prick,
  
  The ipw2200 drivers do not support monitor mode. Read the fucking project page next time.
  
  I will, but only if you bother reading my post next time, sweetie. *smooch*
  
  Please point out to me where I ever say that the ipw2200 drivers support monitor mode.
  
  I do not program. I am a user. Furthermore, the specs and documentation for the card have not been released. How the fuck could I implement something not documented even if i wanted to? Thank you, and please shut the fuck up.
  
  You could try:
  
  Donating to the project. Obviously, a lot of progress has already been made with the drivers, with no specs.
  
  Paying for a private company to develop drivers.
  
  Doing some research and instead purchasing technology that already does what you want with supported drivers.
  
  Encouraging your programming friends to help with the project.
  
  Intel is being evil by not releasing specs. But that doesn't mean you should sit back and take it. Or even worse, bitch at the people who are trying to make progress.
  
  You seem upset about the monitor mode thing. Be patient. The code is in the ipw2100 drivers, it's only a matter of time before it's implemented in the ipw2200 drivers as well.
Linux has become mainstream, not niche market by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 03:34 · Score: 0

The author of that article seems to live about two years back in the past, describing Linux as niche market. We have the year 2005 and Linux has become mainstream, not just in the server but in the desktop market as well. Some journalists need to better keep up with the news before they write something.
1. Re:Linux has become mainstream, not niche market by Anita+Coney · 2005-01-20 03:44 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, considering that desktop Linux has a larger market share than Apple, we're definitely a notch above niche nowadays.
  
  --
  If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
2. Re:Linux has become mainstream, not niche market by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 03:48 · Score: 0
  
  What did you expect from M$'s loyal servants?
3. Re:Linux has become mainstream, not niche market by kamagurka · 2005-01-20 03:53 · Score: 1
  
  it is? numbers?
4. Re:Linux has become mainstream, not niche market by Anita+Coney · 2005-01-20 04:03 · Score: 1
  
  In the desktop market, Linux has moved past Apple to become the #2 player, with about 6% of the market.
  
  Market researcher IDC expects to announce within weeks that Linux PC market share in 2003 hit 3.2%, overtaking Apple Computer Inc.'s MacOS.
  
  IDC estimates that Linux now claims more desktops worldwide than Apple.
  
  --
  If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
5. Re:Linux has become mainstream, not niche market by Anita+Coney · 2005-01-20 04:07 · Score: 1
  
  I just wanted to point out that I'm not criticizing Apple. I do criticize Apple quite often, but even I admit that OSX is pretty damn good desktop OS. If it were available on the x86 platform I'd certainly buy at least one copy.
  
  I don't use Linux because it's free, I use it because it does what I want to do.
  
  --
  If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
Ouch, Major Troll ... I'll bite. by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 03:34 · Score: 0

No doubt Apple makes ok, if close hardware.
I'd sure like to have the ability to occasionally run a windows binary using Cross Over Office or Wine. I'm not so sure an Apple could handle it.
Power savings ? by cyberfunk2 · 2005-01-20 03:37 · Score: 1

Intel's always pushing the power saving features of Centrino, and now that there's good Linux drivers for the wifi chipset, is there suddenly good support for the power saving aspects of the chip ?

If I recall, centrino has SpeedStep, or whatever they call their Mhz shifting tech to save power. Does linux support this natively ? Does it support it w/ the P4M?
1. Re:Power savings ? by Mad+Merlin · 2005-01-20 04:55 · Score: 0
  
  I can confirm that Linux supports the Enhanced Speedstep features of the Pentium M, and has since I got my Thinkpad T40 with Pentium M at least, which was around Kernel 2.4.22. This is for APM though, not ACPI. I haven't bothered trying ACPI because it doesn't offer me anything I don't already have (Speedstep + hardware Suspend/Resume).
  
  --
  Game! - Where the stick is mightier than the sword!
2. Re:Power savings ? by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 05:15 · Score: 0
  
  Speed step works quite well on my linux laptop.
  
  environment: 2.6.10 from kernel.org, with
  acpi & ipw2200 from sf.net.
  
  system installed as knoppix 3.6, gradually converging with debian sarge.
3. Re:Power savings ? by vranash · 2005-01-20 05:37 · Score: 1
  
  CPUFREQ works fine on 2.6 series kernels, I've got a GQ Branded Centrino laptop running that gets around 2-3 hours of battery time with the screen on, and it's shown about 4:30 on a full battery if I close the lid (for comparison, the iBook I've got (currently DEAD) could get 4 hours clocked to 600 mhz (800mhz g4) with a 12.1" screen, compared to my centrino running 600mhz with a 14.1" screen... full speed the iBook got around 2 to 3, whereas the Centrino will get about an hour and a half at 1.5ghz, with about 15-20 minutes per 200 mhz stepping (600/800/1000/1200/1400/1500). Still not the amazing battery time I'd like, but it beats my P4 2.6ghz laptop with the 45 minute full charge full speed, and hour and a half idle time :)
4. Re:Power savings ? by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 06:50 · Score: 0
  
  Anandtech had a pretty good article last month about SpeedStep on the Dothan with linux on its website. Reading from the beginning of the article however it looks like gcc (you need gcc >3.4 or else it looks just like a pentium pro to any lesser gcc's) is not fully optimised for pentium-m arch yet. If your using any debian based distro they don't recommend the use gcc 3.4 yet. I hope patches get backported so it can, maybe they have but I haven't seen anything so far.
they need it by comet69 · 2005-01-20 03:38 · Score: 2, Interesting

I sure hope major computer companies like Compaq, HP, Dell, etc..etc.., realize the true potential of Linux and what it can really do for their computers..

it would be interesting if these big companies just made their own individual distros of linux.. that way you could really judge the computer by how it runs with an operating system specifically designed and customized for the hardware that makes up the computer.. they could appeal to so many customers.. and they wouldn't have to sell the same computer, with the same grassy hill background, to every freakin person in the world..

--
- Hi I'm Linus Torvalds and I pronounce Linux, Lih-nix..
Those are community's by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 03:44 · Score: 0

Those drivers are from the community, not Intel. Read the begining of both pages: no documentation. IOW, Intel has NOT helped. Maybe now they will, but that is late comer, not real Linux support. Maybe with other products they will support since day one, instead of waiting things to be clear and then try get the honors. For example, they could have been helping with power management before Centrinos were common, and everyone would have won. BTW, I have a Centrino, cpufreq_ondemand module rocks, but it seems a new addition to the 2.6 kernels.
1. Re:Those are community's by mahdi13 · 2005-01-20 04:41 · Score: 1
  
  Those drivers are from the community, not Intel. Read the beginning of both pages: no documentation.
  Did you stop reading at the beginning of the page also? I'd guess you didn't notice who the site and project manager is?
  James Ketrenos jketreno@linux.intel.com
  
  I'll assume that he doesn't work for Intel then and has hijacked the domain and Intel does not have a Linux division at all?
  
  The drivers themselves are a community effort, but the firmware is/has/will be made by Intel. The original driver codebase was released by James with Intel's blessing and I have seen many other Intel developers taking part in the development through the mail list
  
  Of course, this is just for the wireless part...Centrino is a combination of 3 chipsets. The wireless is the most highlighted part because that's what the sheeple look for, the real truth is the Centrino is a combination of power saving features
  
  Centrino details
  Intel® Pentium® M processor
  Mobile Intel® 915 Express chipset family or Intel® 855 chipset family
  Intel® PRO/Wireless Network Connection Family
  
  --
  "Some things have to be believed to be seen." - Ralph Hodgson
Re:Ouch, Major Troll ... I'll bite. by kuwan · 2005-01-20 03:47 · Score: 1

Well, if you'd like to do that then a PPC machine is not the best choice. But if you're just going to be running Linux applications then it makes a pretty good Linux Laptop. Plus you get out Mac OS X and a bunch of other great software.

Join the Pyramid - Free Mini Mac

--
infested with jello like fishes no melotron wishes
Cynical Topic by utlemming · 2005-01-20 03:49 · Score: 3, Interesting

"or are they just leaping upon the nearest bandwagon in pursuit of a few extra bucks?"

Now that is just an unfair spin -- after Slashdot ran a story about Intel's reluctance to support Centrino for BSD, this just appears to be a case of advocacy working. The story was a couple months back on the BSD's and their effort to get Centrino support. There was even a some information on how to bother Intel to get the support. I personally sent an email to at least ten of the Intel people on the subject. So instead of trying to spin this as Intel trying to make an extra buck, we should be celebrating a win for the open source community.

On a side note -- of course they did this to earn a buck. Why else would they do it -- just out of the goodness of their heart. They are a hardware vendor and do what is in the best interest of earning money. But the cynical light in which the comment was given is inappropraite. Because we like free software so much, we are in a different paradigm of economic thought. We think economically in terms of value while Intel thinks in terms of money. Intel gains very little by giving software and ideas away; IBM gains a lot since they offer support for the product. So the only thing that we have that Intel wants is our money. And that is generally true for every corparation. So whether or not this is a philisophical shift is moot -- we vote with our dollars and if the philisophy of the consumer is X and is willing to vote for X with the dollar, then the producer is going to adopt X if it produces the money it wants. Those of us in the open source community, users and developers alike need to be understanding of our philisophical positions and what it means for companies. Just because we don't think that software should have a cost, doesn't mean that we should be cynical jerks about some company filling our demand for a product.

--
The views expressed are mine own and do not express the views of my employer.
1. Re:Cynical Topic by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 04:26 · Score: 0
  
  Intel gains very little by giving software and ideas away; IBM gains a lot since they offer support for the product.
  
  Fine insight generally, but I think Intel definately stands to gain quite a lot from increased Linux acceptance.
  
  See, everytime Intel sells a processor, the customer in general buys a package containing (1) a Intel processor (2) other hardware(Harddisk, motherboard, etc), (3) MS Windows. Now, if the price of Windows could be lowered(through Linux' competion), more people could afford to buy the whole package(and Intel processors).
  
  So, Intel would absolutely like Linux to succeed and shake some competition into the OS market.
2. Re:Cynical Topic by nagora · 2005-01-20 05:46 · Score: 1
  
  Intel gains very little by giving software and ideas away;
  Other than increasing the market for their product, you mean? Last time I looked Intel was primarily a hardware company. Effectively, they do in fact only make money by servicing the software, in the form of selling hardware to support it. What use would it be for Intel to sell software (ie, drivers) for which there is no hardware? None. What use would it be for them to give away software and sell the hardware? Lots.
  TWW
  
  --
  "Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Intel aren't entirely stupid by avidday · 2005-01-20 03:52 · Score: 2, Insightful

Remembering that the Centrino platform is the CPU + chipset + Wifi adaptor, one of the missing pieces for sensible hardware support (given they now have their ACPI and speedstep support in the kernel.org tree) was a driver for the 2200BG/2915BAG cards. Intel wouldn't released any hardware specs for either adaptor, but they did develop their own GPL'd driver which is now pretty stable and works quite well. They also have relicensed their firmware so that it can be redistributed. All of this happened in the second half of last year.
It wouldn't have been particularly smart to permit Centrino + linux marketing when one of the cornerstones of the platform wasn't supported and the reason was Intel's own tardyness in getting the driver up to speed and their firmware license sorted out.
Say "thanks" to wifi vendors by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 03:54 · Score: 1, Insightful

They have not helped. You can find great support for a Intel, 3Com, Realtek... WIRED ethernet. Then you try with wireless cards, and you start to see how much many companies want to help, of the six or seven that exist, two only really help. *BSD people even started a campaign so they are allowed to ship the firmware, now that vendor have decided to save some cents in flashram. But no, some companies don't want firmware to be shipped with kernels, others do not help at all with the driver or offer binary code only.

*BSD and Linux people are trying as much as they can, even reverse engineering or distributing firmware themselves. The potato is in vendors hands: offer docs, offer license to ship firmware with kernel (give hash checksums so everyone can test), offer open code so it can be integrated in all distributions. And win customers, damn, why not even help win32 coders so they can help with your drivers? And do not start the FCC rant, there are hacked firmwares and in other cases it is just saying you live in Japan.
Big ups to Suse 9.2 by kill+-9+$$ · 2005-01-20 03:57 · Score: 1

Similar story over here on a Thinkpad T42. Suse 9.2 found and configured like 95% of my hardware correctly right out of the box (including power management and suspend type features).

Only thing that didn't really work is 3D acceleration of my ATI card, mostly due to ATI not having a version of their driver that worked with the latest version of X.Org. However, after the big news Monday, I have to now go and try to get that working.

Anyway, just wanted to second the notion that Suse 9.2 absolutely rocks.

--

-- A computer without COBOL and Fortran is like a piece of chocolate cake without ketchup and mustard
1. Re:Big ups to Suse 9.2 by mahdi13 · 2005-01-20 04:44 · Score: 1
  
  The latest ATI Linux driver from Monday has support for xorg-6.8 and works great.
  
  The older drivers would crash on me in ut2004 with onslaught maps, this new driver hasn't crashed on me yet
  
  --
  "Some things have to be believed to be seen." - Ralph Hodgson
Are Apple Linux drivers open source? by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 03:57 · Score: 0

Does apple provide open source solutions for their drivers?
It does with latest 2.6.x by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 04:06 · Score: 0

You can try cpufreq* (for power policies) and speedstep* (for cpus) modules (there are powernow* too). There are some, check your kernel tree and load the ones you need. It would have been better if this was tested in 2.5 series, tho.
For the lazy shits by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 04:08 · Score: 0

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/linuxunix/0,39020 390,39184876,00.htm
1. Re:For the lazy shits by essreenim · 2005-01-20 04:14 · Score: 1
  
  http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/linuxunix/0,39020 390,39184876,00.htm
2. Re:For the lazy shits by HiThere · 2005-01-20 11:07 · Score: 1
  
  Thanks. Either the link is back up, or you are linking to a different page. This makes Intel's previous stance slightly more defensible. I'll need to think about how I feel towards them.
  
  If Intel didn't have a prior history of high handed actions, and, well, behavior I find personally offensive, then I would immediately forgive them this transgression, but they've already earned penalties in my personal score box, so, as I said, this requires thought. (OTOH, AMD may also be doing things that I would find offensive...and I just don't know about them. And Intel has STOPPED the offensive activity.)
  
  --
  
  I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
3. Re:For the lazy shits by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 14:57 · Score: 0
  
  I'm sure Intel or AMD cares deeply about how you feel....
4. Re:For the lazy shits by HiThere · 2005-01-21 09:55 · Score: 1
  
  They don't need to. I care about th ethics of who I do business with for MY benefit, not theirs.
  
  --
  
  I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Re:X driver by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 04:08 · Score: 0

A slashdot user with a fanny? Rare .....
The world isn't binary, michael. by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 04:12 · Score: 0

but does this represent a major philosophical shift for the chipmaker, or are they just leaping upon the nearest bandwagon in pursuit of a few extra bucks?

There's no defensible reason to present such an outrageous false dilemma in the summary.

Such "leading" commentary would be considered base trolling if done in any other context.
"if done in any other context." by Anita+Coney · 2005-01-20 04:14 · Score: 1

You mean anywhere else but slashdot?

--
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
Re:No excuse (shameless plug) by daevux · 2005-01-20 04:21 · Score: 1

Actually, EmperorLinux fills the niche you speak of. They not only sell laptops with complete Linux compatibility, but also offer email and phone support. Even the ipw2100 and ipw2200 chipsets are supported. Emperor has been in business since 1999 and has been quite successful. And, Linux Journal seems to like their stuff. Check them out.

(PS: I do work there, but I'm not getting paid for this).
Intel is also one of the biggest users of Linux by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 04:21 · Score: 0

Ask your same hardware friends what OS they use to work on. From what I've heard, Intel has one of the biggest, if not the biggest, installed user base of Linux in the world. Supposedly in the 10's of thousands.

I do know the serious CAD software runs faster on Linux than on Windows, so this isn't surprising.
1. Re:Intel is also one of the biggest users of Linux by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 05:14 · Score: 1, Interesting
  
  We use Linux to do engineering work and Windows to do administrative work (outlook email, excel, powerpoint etc...).
  
  Linux is far superior for engineering work for obvious reasons.
  
  The typical usage model is the use a windows laptop (thinkpads - the best notebooks on the planet :) to VNC into the various linux workstations.
What ban? by FRiC · 2005-01-20 04:22 · Score: 1

Is the ban regional? I'm in Thailand and my Acer Centrino notebook comes with Linux pre-installed.
1. Re:What ban? by game+kid · 2005-01-20 06:07 · Score: 1
  
  Is the ban regional? I'm in Thailand and my Acer Centrino notebook comes with Linux pre-installed.
  
  I smell piracy (not that I'm very concerned). I hardly know most of Intel's practices, but it doesn't seem right that they would put their seal of Centrino approval only on a few Thai Linux PC's.
  
  Maybe Centrino was just slapped on the PC to fool you...unless the store/warehouse swapped Windows out of the 'book before it went on the shelves.
  
  --
  You can hold down the "B" button for continuous firing.
2. Re:What ban? by FRiC · 2005-01-20 06:53 · Score: 1
  
  The Acer models in question are at http://www.acer.co.th/product/travelmate/4000/inde x.htm
  
  The main page says it's Centrino, and the pricing page says it comes with Linpus Linux BE. The notebook itself has a Centrino sticker but no Windows sticker.
  
  The pricing is cheaper than other parts of the world since it doesn't come with Windows.
3. Re:What ban? by game+kid · 2005-01-20 07:25 · Score: 1
  
  The main page says it's Centrino, and the pricing page says it comes with Linpus Linux BE. The notebook itself has a Centrino sticker but no Windows sticker.
  
  Odd, to me, how they recommend Windows XP Professional on the main page and show Linux on the pricing page. Not that I know how that "recommendation" works. Maybe Acer switches Windows with Linpus after Intel gives the PC a Centrino sticker, though I think that would cost a bit more to do. It just seems fishy, even if Linux works better.
  
  --
  You can hold down the "B" button for continuous firing.
I say install it yourself by fistfullast33l · 2005-01-20 04:25 · Score: 1

I think half the fun for me of using Linux is that I installed it myself. When I first started, I had no idea what I was doing but now, I definitely know my way around and can really appreciate the amazing accomplishment of these developers.

For me, buying a laptop from Dell with Linux already installed takes away the entire point of me putting Linux on my machine in the first place.

Forget philosophies on OSS vs. Microsoft and all that junk...100% the people who use Linux are doing it not because it makes life easier, but because everything is completely controlled by us.

Of course, I can definitely see the day that I buy a PC from Dell or HP with RedHat on it and the first thing I do is format the hard drive and put Slackware or Gentoo (ducks to dodge the tomatoes) on the machine instead.
1. Re:I say install it yourself by jallison · 2005-01-20 06:14 · Score: 1
  
  I think half the fun for me of using Linux is that I installed it myself. When I first started, I had no idea what I was doing but now, I definitely know my way around and can really appreciate the amazing accomplishment of these developers.
  
  This is a valid point. I've been spending time over the last week or so training my laptop to dual-boot Mandrake 10.1 and WinXP. I'm doing this not so much because I think I'll be more productive with Linux running on my laptop, but as an exercise to see how hard it is and to learn something along the way. For me, Windows XP and MS Office, plus a bunch of other stuff I've loaded like Firefox and Thunderbird, have made the laptop a very useful tool. Yes, there are security concerns, but -- knock on wood -- I have yet to be bitten. Of course I'm pretty careful in maintaining my system: I run a firewall (not the XP one), virus scanner, and a handful of anti-spyware/anti-adware apps. And I don't run IE.
  The thing that jumps out at me is that the person who is most likely to get bitten by MS security holes is the person least likely to make the switch to Linux. They want a system they turn on and it works. A tool. They don't want a computing experience or a hobby. There's no way they are going to go through the trials of getting a Linux distro up and running on a laptop. Especially if they want wireless support (I've been battling ndiswrapper on Mandrake for a few days now).
  What does this mean for the future? Linux distros have come a long way in a pretty short time. I think if progress continues to be made at this rate then before long we'll see distros that Joe Average can actually install and use. I hope so at any rate.
2. Re:I say install it yourself by Dan+Ost · 2005-01-20 07:52 · Score: 1
  
  The value of getting a computer (laptop or not) preinstalled with Linux isn't
  that you don't have to install Linux on it, it's that you can be resonalbly
  certain that when you wipe the disk and install whatever version of Linux you
  want, all the hardware will be supported.
  
  --
  
  *sigh* back to work...
Same experience by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 04:25 · Score: 0

Suse 9.2 is just great on my laptop. I installed it and almost everything just worked. The power management part is the only part that is still finicky. For example, suspend to disk sometimes fails because there isn't enough swap (it says). I should reinstall with a larger swap and see if that fixes it. I will also install the next version of Suse (Suse 10?) the moment it comes out because it should fix any remaining bugs, resulting in perfect performance.
Even the submitters don't RTFA these days... by biglig2 · 2005-01-20 04:28 · Score: 1

Intel make it perfectly clear in the article what the reason for this change is.

Centrino is a brand name that Intel let you put on laptops you sell if they meet a list of requirements.

Linux, with kernel 2.6.8, has changed so it is no longer incompatible with those requirements, so Intel will now let you brand a Linux Laptop as Centrino.

--
~~~~~ BigLig2? You mean there's another one of me?
Linux Laptops a long time ago!!!! by briandadude · 2005-01-20 04:28 · Score: 1

Linux able to be on laptops have already been done a long time ago. There is nothing special about this news!!! I have a laptop with AMD 64-bit processor and it has had Linux put on it. Also I have a friend with an old pentium 1 laptop that has linux on it. I also know of many other laptops of friends and people who put linux on them. So this news is nothing of special.
Strange, I don't see the big deal by James+Wells · 2005-01-20 04:34 · Score: 2, Insightful

Greetings,
After having worked at Intel, and participating in one of the big Intel / Linux strategy sessions, I really don't see this as a major change / depoarture from their strategies for the last few years.

Intel's reason for asking that laptop manufacturers not to bundle Linux has simply been due to a limitation in the Linux Kernel. Prior to 2.6.8, Linux's support for the Centrino's capabilities has been somewhat sparse and a bit unreliable.

Due to this, Intel, rather than fight through a couple million support calls, decided to ask OEM's to simply not bundle Linux until someone had a chance to get the needed changes into place.

Now, that the linux kernel has this ability, Intel is more than happy to begin recommending Linux on Centrino's. Currently, there are around 35 OEM's who already produce and sell fully Linux compatible Centrino laptops, in fact, I am using one right now to write this.

Contrary to what many might believe, Intel doesn't want to remain tied exclusively to Micro$oft, and has instead been a huge benefactor of the Open Source community. While I was at Intel, they were actively recruiting people to create, manage, and participate in Open Source projects, and would even go so far as to release these people to "quietly" move huge chunks of Intel code into Open Source projects. OpenGL, GCC, PostgresSQL, MySQL to name a few.

For those of you are are using GCC 3.4+, you may have noticed a huge performance increase when running on Intel processors, this comes from, in large part, to Intel working with the GCC group to move large chunks of ICC into GCC.

Will say it again... Strange, I don't see the big deal

--
"Individuals are smart, people are stupid" -- Tommy Lee Jones as "K" from Men In Black
1. Re:Strange, I don't see the big deal by bani · 2005-01-20 10:26 · Score: 1
  
  actually, intel really doesn't like being bitch to microsoft. bill gates has threatened andy grove on more than one occasion, and andy apparently doesn't like that.
I know I'm going slightly off topic by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 04:35 · Score: 0

But since linux is such a large player, shouldn't we start to demand hardware drivers from apple? After all, they are still primarily a hardware company.

Anyways, I'm on my third "linux-centrino" now, I'm hoping HP at least makes their Linux laptop possible to find... It would be great to buy a linux laptop that actually works:p
How Fortuitous! by rincebrain · 2005-01-20 04:47 · Score: 1

I pulled the Centrino label off of my IBM ThinkPad four or five months ago, when I noticed that my laptop didn't work with "Centrino-verified" networks.

Plus, it was peeling off and annoying me while touch-typing.

Also, if nothing else, this clarifies the difference between Centrino and most of the technology that goes into it.

--
It's only an insult if it's not true.
Market is there, if it comes with Windows too by kanweg · 2005-01-20 04:47 · Score: 1

All a manufacturer would have to do is partition the HD (they are really big these days), put Windows on 1 partition and Linux on the second?
Dear customer: We took the liberty of adding a couple of thousand worth of software on your computer. If you don't like that, click this program to remove the Linux partition.

That would be a big plus in terms of marketing.

Why don't those manufacture that do bring out Linux laptops this? Can anyone provide evidence that this is not allowe by MS, and if so, isn't that anti-competitor behaviour punishable by law? I'm interested in facts here, please give them (instead of speculation).
1. Re:Market is there, if it comes with Windows too by westlake · 2005-01-20 07:10 · Score: 1
  
  Why don't those manufacture that do bring out Linux laptops this?
  Because no one sane wants to provide technical support for dual-boot systems and the 3,000 or so randomly chosen apps installed with your typical Linux distro.
Here's a take on Powerbooks by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 04:57 · Score: 0

I just spent some time with a wonk at LANL and he said there's "sort of a movement" by the engineers there to powerbooks. All the MS office junk for the masses and you can pull up a _real_ shell of your choosing to talk to the super boxes.

I'm not a wonk, and merely want a viao running FreeBSD.
Which pavillion? by phorm · 2005-01-20 04:57 · Score: 1

I'm at this moment using an HP pavillion zd7000... so far everything works (including the broadcom wireless card) except for the built-in MMC cardreader.

If you're still having problems, contact me
Laptop Sticker by eam77 · 2005-01-20 05:00 · Score: 0

So do I get my Centrino sticker in the mail soon?
It's the Money, Stupid by MSTCrow5429 · 2005-01-20 05:03 · Score: 1

...does this represent a major philosophical shift for the chipmaker, or are they just leaping upon the nearest bandwagon in pursuit of a few extra bucks?"
Keep in mind here Intel is a business enterprise; its mission is to generate a positive rate of return for its stockholders and pay its employees, not to be PhDs in philosophy who are capable of arguing the difference in the philophical foundations between Kant and Satre. The fact that Intel is broadening its Linux support is commendable, but is a decision based on the belief that it would enable Intel to sell more product to a broader market, not because it unconditionally supports Linux. Intel adopted AMD's x86-64 instruction set to remain competitive in the market, not because it's AMD's new best friend. Philosophy is mostly in the realm of think-tanks, non-profit organizations, and the chronically unemployed. Corporations implement ideas they believe will be profitable; they don't create entire philosophical frameworks.

--
Slashdot: Playing Favorites Since 1997
IBM's Thinkpad division? by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 05:16 · Score: 0

From TFA: Rob Herman, a programme manager with IBM's ThinkPad division...

Didn't IBM sell all of their PC business recently - who is this guy and what does he do for them?
Like I'd let someone do that for me. by uberjoe · 2005-01-20 05:28 · Score: 1

The choice and configuration of linux distro is a very personal one. I don't think I am comfortable with trusting some dell tech to install slackware or gentoo for me. If linux is all about choice, then I want to be the one to make those choices.
Perhaps a better option would be to buy an OSless laptop, which would save me the trouble of deleting Winblows, and maybe even reduce the cost since there is no M$ license to pay for.

--
The days of the digital watch are numbered.
Broadcom by charnov · 2005-01-20 05:54 · Score: 1

If Broadcom drivers were opened up, many more laptops would be able to run Linux. It's the only reason mine doesn't run something other than Windows.

--
[RIAA] says its concern is artists. That's true, in just the sense that a cattle rancher is concerned about its cattle.
1. Re:Broadcom by Dan+Ost · 2005-01-20 07:55 · Score: 1
  
  My laptop has a broadcom chipset for the internal wireless. There's no
  Linux driver, but it usually works if I use ndiswrapper (sometimes it
  locks hard when I load the module...don't know why, happens to infrequently
  to debug easily).
  
  --
  
  *sigh* back to work...
Newsflash , reality is never what it seems by Moulinneuf · 2005-01-20 06:09 · Score: 1

So our resident local expert on the subject as spoken , good good good ... Now its time for the Bulshit HO so clueless me , no links , no real hard data little me :

1) HP nx5000
http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF 05a/3219 57-64295-89315-321838-f33-395654.html

Whant to take a wild guess as to how many they sold ?

2) http://media.linspire.com/walmart/

Walmart are idiot to have partnered on this with Linspire , but hey if its still around its must have saled a few , care to guess how many ?

3) HP launches Linux laptop in Thailand for $450
in 2003 :

http://www.computerweekly.com/Article122041.htm

4) http://tuxmobil.com/reseller.html

-----

The problem Gnu/Linux as at getting installed on any computer is Microsoft illegal tactics and preferential contracts wich if the big oem get drop of they loose millions if not billions , because they arent competitive anymore. If you really add any clue you would have read the numerous anoncement of GNU/Linux offer that where suddenly dropped from Dell , HP , IBM , etc ... because of exactly this.

In France ( I am a Real American From Canada ) in particular there is a law that say you cant bind two products togheter for a sale ( laptop =1 , os = 2 ), the law is not enforced.

In Asia many desktop and laptop are shipping with GNU/Linux. ( china as billion of people and India is second with millions ) , they are sold in the millions, and are never seen elsewhere.

Another problem is Red Hat wich is not ready to pay for it to be installed on public desktop and laptop even do most of there IPO whas funded by people who taught they add this goal in mind , who as a tight grip on the ears of the manufacturer and cant stop claiming that Gnu/linux is not ready for the desktop when in fact its Red Hat who is not ready.

Gnu/Linux product made 86 billions in related sales last year ... and passed Apple 3% market share ( Gnu/linux total is around 6%-7%) , problem its not from a single vendor and not all vendors whant to talk about it in fear of Microsoft.

But never mind oh so clueless me you are the REAL expert ... and everything is so much more simplier and clearer when you say it.

--
I am a REAL American from Canada , not a wanna-be from the country , self called "last remaining superpower" "of America
1. Re:Newsflash , reality is never what it seems by westlake · 2005-01-20 07:21 · Score: 1
  
  Walmart buries Linux on it's website, typically offers no more than a half-dozen systems with bottom-feeder specs, which sell for within $50 or so of their Windows equivelent, in-store pickup means you pay sales tax.
  You can get a better system price from Dell and free home delivery.
2. Re:Newsflash , reality is never what it seems by cayenne8 · 2005-01-20 08:04 · Score: 1
  
  "...in-store pickup means you pay sales tax.You can get a better system price from Dell and free home delivery."
  Yeah, but, last time I checked...you had to pay sales tax when buying from Dell too...
  :-(
  
  --
  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
this just in, Mac user by geekoid · 2005-01-20 06:12 · Score: 1

needs to take a few extra steps to set something up, has hissy fit.

--
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Working for Intel's Mentality by SumDog · 2005-01-20 07:16 · Score: 1

My cousin works for Intel in their Folesom, CA office. He had never had a Linux box in his home office or in his cube at work outside of VMWare. His router/firewall, file server and main box are XP based.

He doesn't dislike Linux, but he claims he has no need of it. Everything he needs is on Windows and he patches everything daily. His firewall is a full block and he actually has a very secure private NT based network.

I think it's the same mentality they have at Intel. It's not that they wouldn't like to promote their hardware on Linux, they just feel there is no need. Most of the consumers of their hardware are Windows users. The Linux development has been primirally focused on their server products instead.

-Sumit
1. Re:Working for Intel's Mentality by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 10:15 · Score: 0
  
  I would have to say that that's rather strange. Unless he's in a sales or admin position of some sort. I know for a fact that Intel supports Linux. They use it alot. All the chip development/R&D is done on it. Some of the employees run it on their company Centrino laptops. They never banned companies from selling a laptop with the Centrino platform and running Linux, they simply banned the use of the advertising trademark, since the features promoted by the Centrino name did not work previously. It could still be a Centrino system, just no logo for you.
  
  I would have to say you're just incorrect in assuming the company's position on Linux is the same as your cousins. Thousands of Intel Employees use Linux everyday to do their jobs. And they use Intel hardware to do it. If Intel didn't support Linux, they wouldn't be able to do their jobs.
Joysticks! by PsiPsiStar · 2005-01-20 07:42 · Score: 1

I still don't get why we got rid of the joystick and started sliding these damn strange things around on our desks.

Makes me have to keep a portion of my desk clean for starters.

Atari! Where are you when we need you!

No, wait. Don't answer that.

--

___
It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
1. Re:Joysticks! by IgnoramusMaximus · 2005-01-20 07:59 · Score: 1
  
  I still don't get why we got rid of the joystick and started sliding these damn strange things around on our desks.
  Are you implying that the touchpad is a newer or better then the eraser-head? You clearly did not follow the evolution of the pointing devices, it was trackball->touchpad->eraserhead. By your logic we should be all using the "eraser-heads" because they are newer! While I do like the eraser-heads over the touchpads 100-fold, I would never advocate such mindless, stupid adherence to newer=better as you seem to.
2. Re:Joysticks! by PsiPsiStar · 2005-01-20 10:03 · Score: 1
  
  I still don't get why we got rid of the joystick and started sliding these damn strange things around on our desks.
  
  Are you implying that the touchpad is a newer or better then the eraser-head? You clearly did not follow the evolution of the pointing devices, it was trackball->touchpad->eraserhead. By your logic we should be all using the "eraser-heads" because they are newer! While I do like the eraser-heads over the touchpads 100-fold, I would never advocate such mindless, stupid adherence to newer=better as you seem to.
  
  Huh?
  
  --
  
  ___
  It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
3. Re:Joysticks! by IgnoramusMaximus · 2005-01-20 14:02 · Score: 1
  
  Huh?
  Unless we have some serious communication breakdown here, your statement indicated that you are sarcastically comparing my wanting to have "eraser-head" mice to someone irrationally complaining that the joysticks were replaced by mice. To which I responded in kind. If that was not your intention, then I appologise and you should perheaps try to express yourself in some more unambiguous terms.
4. Re:Joysticks! by PsiPsiStar · 2005-01-21 17:33 · Score: 1
  
  I was very unabiguios. I wasn't sarcastic.
  
  I happen to like joysticks.
  
  --
  
  ___
  It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
...and the answer is: by Firewheels · 2005-01-20 07:44 · Score: 1

"... are they just leaping upon the nearest bandwagon in pursuit of a few extra bucks?"
For any given US corporation, it would be a mistake to assuume the answer to this question is anything but yes.
Sony S260's are 99% compatible by SilentUrbanFox · 2005-01-20 08:00 · Score: 1

As well as the S360. Also, their customer support won't rip your hindside out for running Linux on it, so long as you reinstall Windows before you ship it off if something breaks. I know from personal experience. Only piece of hardware on my Sony Vaio S260 that fails to work is the MemoryStick reader. Big whoop. Other than that, AWESOME laptop.
Some notes by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-20 08:26 · Score: 0

Firmware is, normally (always?), OS independant. But it is fun that they start the project, then provide no docs, and tell people to do the work. Do the work how? Guessing? Or just tests what James does? It reminds me of Fedora, they say people will be able to help, then keep the control (in this case the docs). It is a bit absurd.
Buy Why? by bill_mcgonigle · 2005-01-20 08:57 · Score: 1

they just would not license the Centrino lable to said vendors until now.

So the question you have to ask is, "but why?"

Let it be henceforth known that 2005 marks the end of the WinTel duopoly.

--
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Centrino WIFI under linux HOWTO by juliancoccia · 2005-01-20 10:11 · Score: 1

The open source driver maintained by Intel did not work for me: http://ipw2100.sf.net/

But NDISWrapper did (http://ndiswrapper.sf.net) , using the windows drivers. All you have to do is to download the source and compile with make && make install.

Then you have to download the windows drivers from Intel and execute the installation with wine. Just click next next as all you care about is about obtaining the following files:

w70n501.inf
w70n51.sys
w70n5msg.dll

With those files in the current directory, execute:

ndiswrapper -i w70n501.inf
modprobe ndiswrapper

Your wireless interface should be enabled as wlan0.
What about the Design Logo? by bhadreshl · 2005-01-20 11:19 · Score: 1

Replace "Designed for Windows [___]" with "Designed for Linux"
Even though I do not believe in that since the software is meant to be designed based on the hardware (not always true).
Re: Monitor mode ipw2100 yes, ipw2200 no by 183771 · 2005-01-20 17:07 · Score: 1

as far as i know ipw2100 support monitor mode but sister project ipw2200 do not support it. Both are developed by the same Intel developer, so i guest it is only a matter of time :-)
For a extensive list of drivers supporting monitor mode, check seattlewireless wireless driver characteristic table