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US Government May Not Approve Sale of IBM PC Unit
andy1307 writes "Xinhua, among others, quotes a Bloomberg report saying the Committee on Foreign Investments in the United States, or CFIUS, might block the sale of IBM's PC unit to Lenovo over national security concerns. CFIUS is made up of 11 U.S. agencies, including the Department of Justice, the Department of Homeland Security, and is chaired by the Treasury Department. They are concerned Lenovo employees might be used to conduct industrial espionage. The Bloomberg story said members of CFIUS were focusing their attention on an IBM facility in North Carolina of the United States. The same article says IBM hasn't produced its own PCs for several years and that the bulk of its production is done by manufacturing partners, largely in China. In the past, CFIUS has blocked the sale of Global crossing to Hutchison Whampoa because it would have meant Chinese control of the undersea cable communication network."
The real story is that the government has millions of IBMs bought in the past two years that are now just so much scrap due to lack of support.
I know that at my own company, heads are rolling over having standardized on IBM (from Dell) and now laptop problems are going unfixed due to 'attitude' problems from support vendors.
There is very little good that come out of government meddling in the affairs of private companies when no one is being harmed. IBM wants to sell, Lenovo wants to buy. No harm, no foul.
The Chinese are not the Red Menace they are made out to be. If anything, they are about as far from Red as you can get. More a yellowish-tan... But they are capitalists through and through.
It's funny, the land of freedom and capitalism is taking steps that would make a communist plutocracy proud.
The last-ditch efforts of a superpower that will hate being #2 when when China gets its act together in the next generation or two.
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun the frumious Bandersnatch.
I encountered this IBM facility almost two decades ago by accident, when making a wrong turn. It had some innocent looking name like "ibm education center" or similarly meaningless and harmless sounding name, and was huge, all of it spread far back from the highway. With the security vans and cameras and other things all around, it did not look at all like what the sign might suggest. Also, from the moment we made the turn into their lot, to the time we exited and for awhile down the highway, one of their dark security vans followed us everywhere we drove. It gave the impression in many ways of...something "more interesting" going on there. And this was around 89.
between this sale and outsourcing?
I thought the US were supposed to be the laissez-faire free marketeers of the world?
If China was blocking US participation in their markets on these grounds, I've little doubt the US would be taking the matter to the WTO (and winning).
China can always threaten to stop buying up US debt. That would mean a large spike in interest rates in order to make buying US debt more attractive to investors. It would probably also mean a tax hike, something that Dubya would like to avoid at all costs.
Cheney may have said that deficits don't matter, but sooner or later, he will learn that giving the largest dictatorship on Earth a large voice in your government is a bad idea. (Esp. when you are supposed to be promoting "freedom" and "democracy")
Monstar L
It's where they send misbehaving employees. I've been there and it's really not so bad. Lots of free drinks and rah rah team building exercises. It's kind of the last chance stop before they boot you out of the company.
One of the outings during the 2 week "education" training was a trip to see the Tarheels play. Not being a big fan, I sat it out back in the dormitory. Unfortunately, that showed my "lack of team spirit" and counted against me in my final evaluation.
I don't work for Blue anymore, but back in the late 70's it was a pretty great place to be.
Sometimes the best way to win the game is play the game together. http://www.lenovogrp.com/ But the question is who the winner is?
Congrats for being the first. Now, for the funny bit.
Maybe it would be easier for LeNovo to purchase Dell or HP, they have all their Turing human-equivalent english speakers (sales, support) located in India, and Lenovo does manufacturing anyway in China.
This is not a signature.
I think this is in place so China can not use the information gained from the IBM takeover to flood the US markets. China still is communist and they work hard to get their products in American hands, even if that means stealing the technology from someone else. Just my two cents.
This is as stupid as saying: Anything made in china is illegal in usa.
Common its not ONLY IMB which makes stuff in china, almost everyone does.
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what real computer can I buy instead?
Face it, you're just jealous of Mac users who can afford to buy them.
First of all the : " unnamed sources "familiar with the matter" Might be wrong and just trying to stir some trouble. Lets wait until the "final" decision shall we
Secondly The US government need its INTEL upgraded , serioulsy , every computer parts ever made this days have some components made in China. ( welcome to the reality )
They already make the IBM computer there
The US actually today make no ( as in zilch , zero , nada ) computer part whatso ever on its own
All there going to end up doing is look like fool for no obvious reason and going to hurt one of there own company and maybee bring them into bankrupty
And could even close the enormous Chinese market to all the others from the US
I am a REAL American from Canada , not a wanna-be from the country , self called "last remaining superpower" "of America
I can understand the fears of the US government. Like everything else, espionage is probably becoming commoditized. PC technologies -- including the Intel and AMD CPUs inside them -- are relatively low-tech as far as millenium technologies go. But link several and you have a commodity supercomputer. Terrorism has for a long time been a form of commoditized warfare. Small, treacherous attacks combine to give the impression of strength against a state with an overwhelming superiority in conventional or nuclear arms.
I'm a sci-fi vegan: I don't want the aliens to think we have as much right to live as the fried chickens we eat.
China is a bunch of elite politicians and military leaders that "own" the bulk of the businesses. It's at LEAST as corrupt as any other government on the planet. I highly doubt that a takeover of IBM could be deemed completely harmless. China has a long history of copying without penalty. They freely duplicate what isn't theirs, and they lie, cheat, and steal their way to promote competition. They're the first ones to cry foul when cheated, stolen, or lied to though.
The Chinese are not very pleasant to deal with. If I were an IBM exec OR the US Gov't, I would sell the PC division to Lenovo, but I'd be VERY careful about access to other parts of IBM. I'd go through everything with a fine-tooth comb.
Personal Systems Group made $162 million off turnover of nearly $13 billion, that's a 1.2% margin. Software group made $4.5 billion from a $15 billion turnover. Hell, WebSphere MQ Series made several times the profit of the whole PC business, and that's a team of maybe 200 people. CICS made even more. From IBM's point of view, Personal Systems Group isn't worth the effort or the risk.
*http://www.ibm.com/investor/financials/quarterly/ 4q04earnings.phtml
Computers are all made in China anyway! We don't build cars in America, we don't grow food in America, we don't even do tech support in America, we don't make steel in America, we don't make clothes in America and we're busy moving all our jobs that pay well overseas! When exactly did this kind of behavior become a "national security problem?" instead of good business? I mean I know all those people who used to make textiles in the South all just went right out and got themselves a degree after the mills closed - what, you say they weren't smart enough to do that?
Then WHAT THE HELL is left for them to do when all those jobs are gone except cook meth in their trailers? Or become religious terrorists?
Vote Quimby!
sticking your finger in the leaking dike or singling out a grain of sand from the beach. It's already too late. We have exported a majority of our technology to China already, which of course is being copied, therefore, saving China billions in R and D. America's greed has sold itself out.
Before you flame me, yes, I am a patriotic American, however, I am not blind to what is happening. America is going down the path of Rome. Just give us more bread and circuses. Football is more important than academics. Money is more important than ethics.
Computers, at least at the PC level, are a commodity good that are produced with very narrow cost to sales price margins. This makes them very similar to toasters, coffemakers, small refrigerators, etc. IBM wants to sell its PC unit because it can no longer compete or doesn't want to continue expending the energy and resources it takes to compete. This competition arises from the fact that there are any number of other producers in the market turning out computers which are almost indistiguishable from the ones IBM is producing. Some of these other producers are in China. So, it appears that this ruling would stop IBM from selling to a Chinese firm a capabilty other Chinese firms already possess and which is causing the market pressures that pushed IBM to consider the sale in first place.
Where in all of that is a national security concern?
Bureaucracy loves company.
IBM needs a buyer for it PC division because it intends to pursue their own architecture, that is their new Cell technology and Power line.
So they want to sell it now while it's still hot. Not later when they will actually compete with the old PC-architecture.
And selling to a foreign company, like one from China, is really good move. An incentive for "others" to put a spoke in IBM's wheel?
It will be the same to say: "Hello everybody, free market is only an idea. We don't belive in it. We just want you open your market to US.
Do you have to post this crap everywhere?
And mods stop smoking the crack, tyvm.
[One of the key figures is already missing...]
George B.: Condi! Nice to see you. What's happening?
Condie R.: Sir, I have the report here about the new leader of China.
George B.: Great. Lay it on me.
Condie R.: Hu is the new leader of China.
George B.: That's what I want to know.
Condie R.: That's what I'm telling you.
George B.: That's what I'm asking you. Who is the new leader of China?
Condie R.: Yes.
George B.: I mean the fellow's name.
Condie R.: Hu.
George B.: The guy in China.
Condie R.: Hu.
George B.: The new leader of China.
Condie R.: Hu.
George B.: The Chinaman!
Condie R.: Hu is leading China.
George B.: Now whaddya' asking me for?
Condie R.: I'm not asking you, I'm telling you. Hu is leading China.
George B.: Well, I'm asking you. Who is leading China?
Condie R.: That's the man's name.
George B.: That's who's name?
Condie R.: Yes.
George B.: Will you or will you not tell me the name of the new leader of China?
Condie R.: Yes, sir.
George B.: Yassir? Yassir Arafat is in China? I thought he was in the Middle East.
Condie R.: That's right.
George B.: But Yassir's a leftie. Then who is in China?
Condie R.: Yes, sir.
George B.: Yassir is in China?
Condie R.: No, sir.
George B.: Then who is?
Condie R.: Yes, sir.
George B.: Yassir?
Condie R.: No, sir.
George B.: Look, Condi. I need to know the name of the new leader of China. Get me the Secretary General of the U.N. on the phone.
Condie R.: Kofi?
George B.: No, thanks.
Condie R.: You want Kofi?
George B.: No.
Condie R.: You don't want Kofi.
George B.: No. But now that you mention it, I could use a glass of milk. And then get me the U.N.
Condie R.: Yes, sir.
George B.: Not Yassir! The guy at the U.N.
Condie R.: Kofi?
George B.: Milk! Will you please make the call?
Condie R.: And call who?
George B.: Who is the guy at the U.N?
Condie R.: Hu is the guy in China.
George B.: Will you stay out of China?!
Condie R.: Yes, sir.
George B.: And stay out of the Middle East! Just get me the guy at the U.N.
Condie R.: Kofi.
George B.: All right! With cream and two sugars. Now get on the phone.
Condie R. (into phone): Rice, here.
George B.: Rice? Good idea. And a couple of egg rolls, too. Maybe we should send some to the guy in China. And the Middle East.
[With apologies to Abbott and Costello--"Who's on First?"]
Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
There is nothing in the PeeCee division of IBM that might harm the USA that China doesn't already have.
Sell them* the Panama Canal, no-problemo! Let IBM get a foot in the door in China? For anyone who has bothered to read the details of the deal, IBM will make out like a bandit and USA will be in a better position to spy on the Chinese!
*Surprised it's not being called Wampo-Canal by now.
Frankly im outraged, I think everyone here needs to write to their congressman or something. Also I have absolutely no idea what the story is about, thats the most confusing paragraph ive ever read. IBM PC's are national secuirty risks? Blocking sales? Something about communist China? I wish the government was this concerned with oil company ownership.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
will buy it, and turn into an even bigger player then ever before. That's what I got my fingers crossed on. Although it would be tight to have everything become PPC, the way it looks like it's going.
`B Flicks, `Cool Lick'ah, `Sweet Talk' `in' ManG'
Are they worried about Lenovo employees(presumably Chinese) spying on the companies they sell laptops too? for e.g., if a laptop from a defense contractor is sent to a Lenovo facility for servicing, are they afraid the Lenovo employees might get some information they shouldn't be getting? Aren't IBM laptops serviced by third parties anyway? Where exactly is the potential for industrial espionage?
This is insightful? It isn't even on topic. And the anon posted this very message in a mini mac thread a few days back. ;)
That the neocons are big fans of the free market.
I mean, all these smart people in all those 11 agencies, and still couldn't come up with a decent reason to block the deal?
If I were to do industrial espionage, why would I buy a PC unit? There's not much research in that. I'd go for the chip unit, the mainframe unit, or something. PC unit for espionage? Give me a fucking break. It's just assembly line, mostly, for whatever sake!
Hardly #2, but the USA is nevertheless waking up to the fact that China is catching up technologically at a much faster rate than anybody had expected. Soon enough the Chinese will have reached a point where they can threaten the USA militarily using Chinese developed technology based on technological transfer from Russia, W-Europe and the USA it self. Greedy corporations outourced work to China and with they exported the technology China needed to develop better and better military hardware. This sort of a panic reaction is simply a belated reckonition of this development. Expect the Chinese to field Submarines, Tanks and a Stealth aircraft capable of competing with the F-35 within the next 20 years or so and its surface fleet will become a serious challenge to the USN in the Pacific.
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
Oh wait...
Dude, TheKidWho (knows nothing)
: //mwhodges.home.att.net/debt.htm
http://mwhodges.home.att.net/reserves.htm
http
Foreigners now own more and more of America - - about "$8 trillion of U.S. financial assets, including 13% of all stocks and 24% of corporate bonds", according to Bridgewater Associates. According to the Federal Government Debt Report, they also own 40% of Treasury bonds & bills. Additionally, they own real estate and factories.
Even your own silly US DOLLAR is not owned by the govt, but by the federal reserver PRIVATE CORPORATION which is composed of 12 central banks, mostly foreign.
Your sweet ride is over.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
Sites within the United States are located in Chandler, Ariz.; Santa Clara, Calif.; Colorado Springs, Colo.; Hudson, Mass.; Rio Rancho, N.M.; Hillsboro, Ore.; and Dupont
n g/ manufacturing_qa.htm
http://www.intel.com/pressroom/kits/manufacturi
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
They could have put $13billion into Euros 12 months ago, with the dollar dropping 20% they could have made a hell lot more, but its more fun to run a company than watch a spread sheet.
But what else is IBM going to do with $13b? Make an OLED factory? they already have access to large amounts of cash, its not like they CANT FIND $13b, they can.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
> Btw: How many "laptop problems" did you have with ThinkPads?!
Oh, I dunno.. it destroyed $300 batteries regularly, it had too many IRQs for all devices to be enabled at once, it had this ugly little cli--er, eraser thingy in the middle of the keyboard which was useless and required adjustment every few days, the BIOS setup looked like some 1983 CGA game for retarded five year olds, and was about as useful, it was twice the size and half the power as the equivalent Toshiba model of the time... Oh yah, and the drivers which when downloaded, had to be extracted onto a _floppy_ disk.
IBM Thinkpad 600E U2426. All the crap you never wanted, and then some. (Oh yah, the model number is obtuse and there are a trillion useless variants to this useless heap of garbage)
I should have bought that Compaq instead. It was the same price, and still runs to this day.
Oh well. At least IBM still offers downloads on legacy products like that, even if they are really stupid to install and highly broken.
The 'highly broken' part is a universal standard for the PC industry anyways though, which IBM created with that crappy machine they threw together in a drunken binge on a weekend in 1981 -- Unsharable interrupts? Static OS structures? Segmented, 20-bit memory? Processor-driven I/O? How could you do this with a motto of "Think"?? Or maybe that's a typo, maybe it's.. DRINK??
Remember kids, alcohol, like smoking, is _not cool_.
You do grow food in America - and sell it to China. They have a lot of people there, so your wheat is important to them.
"What do you mean I'm fired? No one ever got fired for choosing IBM..."
Do not export to China!
"Because you can."
Do you need any other reasons?
There was a company that made rare-earth magnets in Valparaiso, Indiana. (Necessary for small strong servos in, oh... missles...) That got sold to China...
inconsistent, arbitrary law enforcement breeds contempt.
If we had a compentent National Security Council, none of this would have happened, nor would it have been allowed to be politicized.
--Mike--
China can always threaten to stop buying up US debt. That would mean a large spike in interest rates in order to make buying US debt more attractive to investors.
Sure, China could stop buying US debt. U.S. interest rates would rise and economic growth in the U.S. would slow. But this would threaten China's massive exports of rubber dog shit. Since the Chinese regime's goal is full employment, they won't do anything to threaten that. President Bush and Vice-President Cheney have been excellent stewards of the U.S. economy.
an ill wind that blows no good
A) Talks about China censorship in relation to Google
B) Doesn't think that the government may have another reason besides the obvious clap-trap for blocking the sale
With everything going on in the news, does anyone believe they would block the sale of IBM over something as trivial as industrial espionage? Many of you have pointed out the plethora of other companies that are based overseas, but yet fail to see that something else maybe behind the "rumored" blocked sale of IBM to Lenovo. Take of the blinders and take a look around.
Last time I checked Mcdonalds is hiring at $7 bucks an hour...... That is $1.85 over minimum wage. I have yet to see a job that is minimum wage in a very long time. Minimum wage is a bad idea to begin with (though the time it was created it was a good idea). It has two major flaws:
1. People in different areas need different amounts of money to survive. I.E. my cousin lives in an affluent area right on the border of philly. McDonalds pays about 9 bucks an hour there... It is insane, until you see the price of food/gas/housing. I live about 2 hours from philly, McDonalds pays about $7 an hour. The point: If you live in a really low cost of living area, then $5.15 may be more then enough. And if McDonalds can't afford to pay their employees $5.15 an hour they will be forced to hire less employees, this is the whole supply and demand of labor concept.
2. Minimum wage tends to help inflation which is never a good thing.
The move by IBM to somewhat re-invent the PC, starting in China, is msft's worst nightmare. A move like that could eventually make linux a serious contender against windows. Let's face it, right now linux has about 2% of the desktop market, and is largly ignored by major software developers like intuit, adobee, and autodesk.
Msft is certainly not above abusing the USA legal, or political system, in order to maintain msft's market position.
CFIUS is a safeguard to keep America in control?
Hrrm... I usually just sign my name.
The CFIUS is a joke. Although Hutchinson Whampoa never acquired GC, Singapore Technologies Telemedia (ST Telemedia) [another foreign company] did... Richard Perle was hired by the GC board to lobby the transaction with the Bush administration.
Bush approved the sale of the one of the largest U.S. fiberoptics network to a foreign entity in the middle of a war.
there's no place like ~
The US has NEVER defaulted on a debt payment (post Civil War, might have during that). One of the smart things Clinton did during the government shut-down was violate all sorts of government accounting rules to get the debt payments out.
As a result, US Debt is considered 0-risk. It is the ONLY debt instrument in the world that is considered zero risk. Even other government debt has a small implicit risk premium in it.
Right now, the US raises money at no risk premium. If the US defaulted or increased the money supply (which would cause massive inflation and force the markets to devalue its currency... devaluation as policy requires a peg, normally to the dollar), the would cause the US to start paying a risk premium.
All of a sudden, you would have 10%-15% inflation from oversupply of money, and the US risk premium going up to 5%, for example, and now government bonds pay 15%-20%... How much do you think that your mortgage needs to be now? 25%, 30%?
Basically, the US CAN get out of its mess with massive printing of money, but the results would be catastrophic.
HOWEVER, your comment about the bank is 100% on, and I believe it is the current financial strategy. Continue to buy products from China for "worthless" sheets of paper (paying 4%-4.25% interest), then slowly increase the money supply and inflation to 4.5% or 5%, and inflate your way out of the mess. All of a sudden, the money is devaluing faster than your interest payments, tax revenues go up, and debt repayment is less painful.
Many countries played games like this, but it is normally to buy capital goods and other means of production... we've used it for consumer spending, which is why we may be in a bind.
Mild inflation is nice, but reasonable (5%) inflation) wouldn't kill us, and might be a way out of our mess.
Alex
Well, they could always argue Taiwan government was producing WMD. After they invade it and found nothing, they would... hummm be re-elected?
Where is that guy who'd die defending what I had to say when I need him?
So does anyone have good ideas on how to get CFIUS to block off-shoring deals because of National Security issues? Long term this is a REAL threat to American Security. If we lose our technical edge we lose the technical military edge Rumsy is so proud of (for all the wrong reasons).
Think Deeply.
Not anymore. I'm a contractor there and it sucks a bit one. Three pay cuts in four years with another one on the way. I'd rather be digging ditches or shoveling manure than having come this hellhole every day. ):
its just the circuses (sports, reality shows, celebrity gossip etc.) giving people bread would be "socialism".
During the rant, you said, "I should have bought that Compaq instead. It was the same price, and still runs to this day."
If you didn't buy the Compaq, how do you know it still runs? My anecdotal evidence is no better than anyone else's on Slashdot, but I have had a lot of experience with Dell, Toshiba, IBM, and Compaq laptops. The IBM's and Toshibas have been the best, and the Compaqs have been the worst, and the Dells are somewhere in the middle.
I struggled for days and days and all I got was this lousy sig.
What with the usual IBM internal security guys running around in dark suits & shades, and now the goverment guys running around in dark suits & shades, how can a conspiracy theorist keep them separate?
I mean, obviously, the goverment guys have the tattoo on the forehead, but waving a UV light at people is not the way to go about making new friends. Especially when both groups are packing Sig-Sauers.
I thought to ask them about which is better -- eastern style BBQ or ketchup-based BBQ (thinking that the IBM guys would know to say eastern, since they've been in the area longer), but it seems that some of the goverment guys were onto that little trick (or just naturally liked eastern style, which I suppose is possible too.)
So, how can you tell them apart at slightly-greater-than conversational distance? Just curious.
Chip H.
for Red Slashdot to come out overwhelmingly in support of the murderously vile People's Republic of China. Does Linux advocacy actually speak to some larger deep-seated need to generate apologia for the indefensible?
The ugly truth is that a) the Western world needs China's cooperation and b) the Western world needs a Westernized China. Just one isn't enough for stability. IOW, China is in desperate need of a visit from some fat men and little boys, if you get my drift.
Having worked on the main IBM RTP (Research Triangle Park) NC campus several years ago, I can assure you that the security you encountered was out of the ordinary. When I worked there, my co-workers and I tried to outdo each other at the drive by security station at the entrance. The guards were supposed to check badges, but I got waved through after flashing business cards, playing cards, and even a pack of cigarettes once. Getting into the buildings was a little more difficult, but if you weren't too smelly, all you had to do was pat your pockets and look forlorn: someone would badge you in post-haste.
Thinking of starting a business in Minnesota? Me too! mnsmall.biz
We are talking about generic PC's with Intel chips running Windows.
In this day of Blue-Ray DVD's G5 chips, and the return of *nix this is like stopping the sale of VCR's or 8 track tape players
National Security?, how about stopping flat head engine technology from going to China?
Cheers
* Carthago Delenda Est *
So, how can you tell them apart at slightly-greater-than conversational distance? Just curious.
"Carolina Eastern BBQ" = Vinegar based pork - just the color of the meat
then you have ketchup-based, which is distinctively red, and mustard-based, which is yellow. Pretty simple.
And if you're in the carolinas, BBQ = Pork, not chicken.
If the Chinese are such great people and trustworthy business partners, then why would they steal a W88?
The Chinese are large, powerful, and Machiavellian. China has no qualms in pushing us to the brink of war if it suits their desires.
I expect my government to be extremely cautious in dealing with China. They are the most dangerous situation we face today - our Arabic problems are a sideshow by comparison.
Two societies - one governed by The Little Red Book, the other by the Declaration of Independence.
Which one do you think will work?
This Bloomberg article has a little more substance than the Xinhua version. There's a little more in there on the espionage aspects that Xinhua left out.
that Bill Gates complaints about OSS people being "communists" may have been related to IBM's sale of the PC Division to Lenovo as an end-run around Microsoft to penetrate the Chinese PC market - which is obviously potentially far larger than the US market.
Not to mention that the Chinese are likely to be running Linux rather than Windows...
And we all know how Gates has the ear of the Bush Administration...
Business as usual in the US of A...
If you can't compete, bring in the cops...
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
And not being American I look forward to America losing the technical military edge. That should put on hold the next war.
The most durable laptops seems to be the Dells and the IBMs. Some of the Toshibas are still kicking, and most of the older Acers started dying quite awhile back.
CFIUS say "No".
--
make install -not war
The US builds more cars, light trucks and SUVs than anyone else in the world, and I am happily employed by that industry. I won't by any means say that they are any better in terms of quality or cost-effectiveness (mostly due to the UAW) but we still build the most.
The higher, the fewer.
Pffft. This is not exactly a supercomputer we're talking about here. China already has computers far more powerful than the PC that IBM is considering.
This may a matter of msft using political influence to control the competition.
What expionage aspects?
Let me guess, you know zilch about rate spreads and the yield curve?
Instead of throwing out econobabble why don't you look at the actual numbers? If, as you said, the world was giving up on dollar denominated assets then interest rates would be rising. High rates would be needed to attract reluctant buyers. The yield curve would be getting steeper.
Have you been watching interest rates? Obviously not. The 10 year went down(fractionaly) in 2004. Not up, down. If investors were expecting higher short term rates in the future the curve yould be getting steeper. It's getting flatter. Not steeper. Flatter.
So unless you think you're more clever than the 22 TRILLION dollar bond market, you may want to educate yourself on basic interest rate economics.
How could I forget something that isn't true? China's GDP is 1.6 trillian. The US's 11 trillion. If China maintains a 7.5 growth indefinately (it can't) and the US only 3.5. It will take 50 years for China to catch up.
China can always threaten to stop buying up US debt.
And do you know what the effect of that would be on China? It's a complicated subject but one of the reasons China keeps such large currency reserves is so they can protect their currency against speculation. China has something around $500 billion in US currency right now. This large reserve helps them maintain their currency's peg to the dollar. Its more complicated than this, but essentially they are taking dollars out of circulation thus increasing demand for dollars (less supply -> price increases). This makes a dollar "worth" more, relative to the Renminbi, and makes Chinas exported goods more attractive.
Without a large currency reserve, speculators would be tempted to bet on the currency and China could be forced to float their currency which would cause an instant recession, probably worldwide. Think speculators couldn't do this? George Soros became famous for making $1 billion in a single day by betting on the devaluation of the British pound and forcing the Bank of England to float their currency. In fact speculation is how the 1997 Asian Financial Crisis started. The Thai government had a speculation attack on their currency and were forced to float it, resulting in immediate devaluation and a region-wide financial crisis.
It's not that easy for China to just stop buying dollars. The media tends to paint it as a one sided deal but China is just as dependant on the US, if not more so. Without the US buying all those goods, China's economy goes in the toilet.
Actually you want one designed in Japan. Because a) that's where they have been designed for years now, and b) they kick our ass at that kind of thing.
You and I have very different opinions on what constitutes "soon."
Further, Washington must be consistent in its approach. Sales of subsidiaries to Taiwan should also be blocked. Last week, a Taiwanese company was penalized by Washington for assisting the Iranians in improving their missiles and other weapons of mass destruction.
IBM tries to sell it's PC unit, government seeks to interfere. Slashdot response: "Government is a bully, leave them alone! Government should stay out of business!"
MSFT practices shady business practice. Slashdot response: "The government needs to put MSFT out of business! Help! Help! Help! We need government to interfere!!"
Funny how fluid your opinions are...
50 years is long enough for just about anything to happen. Nuclear War, Revolution, Global Warming/Cooling, Asteroid, Cold Fusion, Nanotechnology, so in economic terms it's long term, meaning it's pointless to make predictions that far out.
The US Government** is trying to prevent IBM and a foreign company from gaining too much*** market power.
Footnotes
**please note that the US Government is a wholly owned subsidiary of Microsoft corporation
***the term "too much" is defined as: any commercial advantage that works against Microsoft's interests. For instance, if Microsoft can no longer blackmail IBM over their PC business, or if Microsoft is unable to blackmail a foreign PC maker over their choice of OS.
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
You should probably credit the Dead Milkmen for that... I was curious where it came from and had to look it up in Google. :)
"Sites within the United States "
:
the "within" should be a big enough clue.
Go visit them , and see for yourself how much of the component they make , and how much they put togheter.
I said
"every computer parts ever made this days have some components made in China."
"They are "only" assembled in the US."
http://www.intel.com/jobs/China/
I am a REAL American from Canada , not a wanna-be from the country , self called "last remaining superpower" "of America
Don't believe the BS, for the last 20 years China has and still is listed as our number one threat in the world. They are the only other super-power left and they are deeply antagonistic towards several of our interests. If we are not in a nasty war with them over Taiwan in the next 15 years, I'll eat one of my testicles. Back when it was part of my job to review security concerns such as this for the DoD, outsourcing and sale of assets concerning strategic information or infrastructure was a quick "hell, no". We have gone back to the "no matter what we are the best and no one can hurt us" mentality of the Reagan years. Ughh...idiots.
[RIAA] says its concern is artists. That's true, in just the sense that a cattle rancher is concerned about its cattle.
IBM PC unit?
Frankly, I don't see how a 25-year-old 8088-based computer would present much of a threat of industrial espionage.
Well, if they added the second 5 1/4" drive and 110 baud acoustic-coupler modem, maybe.
Insiders say that the deal is in jeopardy not
for national security considerations, but because
of the worry in the WH of the political embarrassment and fallout associated with the increasingly more evident loss of US technology leadership. They worry that the deal is raising press awareness of the issue.
Sources close to the review have revealed that IBM will likely be awarded a no-bid contract in Iraq to compensate for blocking the deal. The only remaining negotiations involve the size of the contract, which will be determined as part of the so called "black budget" that form off budget extensions to the $80 B defense of Iraq budget that is now before Congress.
Morality is relative. Last time I looked both US and Chinese citizens are human (although admittedly some seem to want to return to the ways of previous centuries for their righteousness). Both countries suffer from the same lack of foresight, greed, and lust for power among elements of their respective populations.
Judge not lest ye be judged. The pseudo-righteous among us are eager to judge so that they can exert control. Do I see a repeal of Darwinian law anytime soon?
Hardly. But as the world heats up, we will all get to fry together. The good, the bad, and the ugly.
This nothing more than Republican paranoia!
Thanks to a quirk of capitalism being an *extreme* emphasis on competition, governments that embrace capitalism tend to quite rightly see other nations as enemies. The reason why is simple- economic war has now arrived at the point where it can do as much, or more, damage to a country than conventional or nuclear war can. Want to truly destroy a capitalist economy? Just make sure your workers can live on 1/100th the wages of that capitalistic country, and manipulate your currency to stay at that level. Within 50 years, a large majority of the manufacturing jobs from that country will be yours- and a majority of their population will be retired, disabled, or unemployed.
The Chinese becoming capitalist was the ultimate arrow aimed at the soft underbelly of the United States- and it has achieved it's goal (which is why Social Security is in trouble).
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Finally someone who doesn't have his head up his ass!
Believe it or not, I bet what you hit was actually the education center. Converted from an old manufacturing site when all that was moved.
It is funny though because I remember MS selling their source code to the Chinese government and then claiming during their anti-trust case that they couldn't reveal source code for "national security reasons".
I guess it is OK for the Chinese government to have access to the MS source code, however if anyone else can see it, it would "undermine" national security.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land,
it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. -James Madison
not any more after 9-11
I think you forgot to consider the currency value changes.
This is no different than someone kicking you in the head, and you looking to see what color shoe he's wearing.
So. What color of shoe does China have, Mr. Secretary of the Treasury?
"why is my karma still positive?"
prolly because moderators +5 interesting your -1 trolls.
I think you forgot to consider the currency value changes.
No, these are real, id est not nominal, values.
block the deal because of "national security concerns"? because "Lenovo employees might be used to conduct industrial espionage"? on what? on "an IBM facility in North Carolina of the United States"? give me a fucking break! Yes, I am Chinese. We produce cheap craps, we buy companies that produce EXPENSIVE craps, we are garbage collectors. Guess what? the next target will be Microsoft.
where was big brother sixty years ago when ibm was designing computer for the nazis.
OK it would be bad PR for them but if they don't want it as a concern they just axe it if they can't sell it.
People who are concerned about losing U.S. jobs are using security as an excuse in this case. There's no more to the story than that.
Americans are so easy to con, into believing everything is innocently "just about profits". China has gotten a lot of mileage out of that ploy already, selling massive amounts of cheap labor to hungry global capitalists, while quietly milking them for all the tech secrets they can and more.
You are quite right that China is capitalistic through and through. But they are also even more intensely nationalistic--and expansionist, which means an imperialistic threat to the rest of the world. As for "freedom", that is a product of local political programming. My Chinese friends already consider themselves freer than the West.
Be honest with yourself:
Even the most capitalistic-minded person in the world, is he going to be comfortable with somebody else holding the keys to his bank? Or holding the guns that defend his bank?
Why is China going to trust the USA to maintain the world order that they currently profit from? They continue to profit by exaggerating their own appearance of weakness, to keep the rest of the world ignorant of their potential threat. That is what the pegged currency is all about, free markets be damned. It is also what is going on as they program their public to see themselves as the world's persecuted underdogs: Play the underdog now, AND build up angry motivation for future conflict.
Money is a proxy for power only as long as the world remains stable. The minute that changes, violence returns to its historical role as the dominant currency. Every far-sighted government jockeys for a good position in case of that scenario; that is why [almost-] everyone has a military.
The world has no more reason to trust China as a global hegemon than they do the USA. But your point about "yellowish tan" is right: the threat has nothing to do with communism, but with racist and nationalist [which are the same thing] political games that coexist with capitalism.
...compared to:
- China invading Tibet *and keeping it*?
- China invading parts of India back in the 1970's *and keeping some of them*?
- China "negotiating" to retake Hong Kong, with the threat of force if any detail hadn't gone their way?
- China taking the border areas of Vietnam that they fought over in the 1970's, only this time by negotiations under threat rather than drect military action?
- China incessantly claiming the right to invade whenever someone Taiwanese does something they don't like?
China has been expanding their borders in the past few decades, which you might note the USA has not. Don't tell the rest of us about who is dangerous--they both are.
Do you Germans know nothing about Asia? Get out and see the world sometime!
uh...this was posted as a joke--not flamebait. you moderators ain't got no sense of humor. I'm tellin' W.
I might know what I'm talkin' about, but then again, this is Slashdot...
What the hell! Why no beef in that Barbecue? And can I get a bit of honey-garlic on that? Skip the mustard and ketchup (or is it catsup?)
You're right! It IS strange!
Beef doesn't belong in a barbecue. If you want beef, grill a steak.
Honey-anything doesn't belong in a barbecue either.
Say something about how much easier it is to cook the pig over a gas fire instead of pit-cooked over a wood fire. If they offer to stone you for your heresy they're genuine eastern NC residents.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
we should probably just mod the original artical off-topic.
Strong Mad - 2008: "I PRESIDENT!"