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National PC Recycling Plan Proposed, Again
ThinSkin writes "Two U.S. Representatives have proposed a bill to resuscitate a national recycling program for electronic waste, following the successful launch of two state-run programs. The bill would create the National Computer Recycling Act, and if approved by Congress and signed into law, would tack on a $10 administrative fee to the sale price of computers and monitors to fund recycling efforts."
Where (and how) do they draw the line? Desktop computer > laptop > palmtop > wristwatch > implant ... maybe it would be better to charge by mass or percentage value (a laptop != a Cray).
I'm not criticising goal of this law, just curious how an arbitrary line is drawn. Arbitrarily is my guess.
they're MY paperweights!
I guess I'm in support, I don't see $10 as being that bad. It's for a good cause, right? ;-)
My Texas city has a program like this (HEB Hurst Euless Bedford city district) and the stores charge a 30 dollar fee for recycle efforts. I don't see where the extra charge comes in though, as nobody seems to actually -RECYCLE- the computers they buy.
Where's this extra charge come in?
Just today I found a place in Indianapolis called Virtual PC Scavanger or something like that that is doing a hefty job of recycling and reusing old computers. The guy mentioned that they are about to get national sponsorship. Interesting timing.
From what I understand of physics, different elements and compounds have different weights per volume. So gold, being heavy, would be heavier than the same volume of hydrogen.
Archimede's principle dictates that an object will displace its weight in water, which leads to the conclusion that the heavier something is, the lower it will sink in relation to other material surrounding it.
Computers are made up of meltable parts. By melting the computers down, would it not be possible to skim off various useful elements and compounds at certain depths? This is how they separate kerosene jet fuel from high octane gasoline. It's all together in a vat, but sucked out from different depths.
Such a system could be set up in someone's back yard (given a large enough back yard). It's well known that some manufacturers use gold to conduct electricity, and silicon is resaleable. So is copper and a host of other really common elements in computers.
I'm surprised no one's done this yet.
What constitutes a "computer"? And do parts count?
That the government is going to pocket the $10 per system, while people continue to throw the computers in the trash because it's not worth their time/effort? I know that's not how it's supposed to work, but that's likely what is going to happen here. Leave it to representatives to find more ways to tax us.
BTW, I have two old monitors that I plan on paying to recycle pretty soon instead of irresponsibly throwing them in the dump. But I don't expect the government to tell me I need to pay a fee upfront to do this.
And really how toxic are the components that are in printed circuit boards anyway? Yes they use lead in the solder (for the next yew years), but there really isn't that much used all together. Most of the toxic stuff is the chemicals that go into production of these boards.
The organizations have the right to recycle and/or resell the used PCs, which must be performed in accordance with in accordance with environmental health laws.
1. Tax 10 bucks on each computer purchase
2. Use that money to resell old PCs
3. ??
4. Profit!
If computers are made more expensive it only means that everyone with any given bugdet will have to buy a less efficient one, which in turns means longer computations, ergo more power usage. More power means more oil and its associated problems like the greenhouse effect, wars, polution, poverty, etc. Isn't it just counterproductive to use more oil and produce more toxic waste that escapes to the atmosphere forever in order to solve a problem of a "waste" in the form of self-contained expensive hardware which can always find a second-hand market in the developing areas? Computers are not like cars. A CPU that has been working for ten years is unlikely to stop working any time soon and what's more important is that until it breaks it works just as well as when it was new. What exactly is the point of this new legislation if not a new way to add another hidden tax?
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
This should be a state-by-state decision and a state run program. We do not need the federal government adding one more program to the laundry list of programs that they already don't run efficiently. For interstate purchases just settle on a standard where the state of the seller or the state of the buyer collects the fee. Heck, set it up like a deposit system. You pay $10 when you buy the computer and get $5 back when you turn the computer in.
Smaller goverments run programs better - more efficiency, less impact due to corruption (on a smaller scale corruption is easier to detect), and more people are able to keep watch and keep the program in check. The insight for a program might start on the federal level, but it's insane having 1/2 the programs that we have running at the federal level.
Wouldn't it be more efficiant to come up with a nationwide recycling program for as many products as possible? Or at least extend this to all electronics such as TVs, Radios, etc.
It's $6 recycling fee to buy a computer starting this year in California. I wonder if the US fee will be added to this, or California will just follow US fee.
The only reason why i dont recycle much computer parts is that no one will take them without charging you for them. Even then, you dont know if it will get recycled or end up in a dump in china.
If i paid the recycling fee up front, and was then able to drop off the only stuff at a recycling center at no cost, i would do it much more often. Though without oversight the stuff could still end up in china.
I guess im still paying the cost reguardless, but I much better about paying when i purchase the item than when I get rid of it.
In America we are imprisoned by our fear of them.
Doesn't everyone know some strange fellow that collects old computers and parts? If you did then you could get money for your old computer instead of paying extra for it. That's how recycling used to work, ie: you collected cans, recycled them, and counted your dimes. But now we have to pay to recycle things...what is this country coming to?
Dear trolls, YHBT
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Once again
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I wouldn't have a problem with each computer including a $10 "deposit" built into it that you received upon dropping it off at a recycling center, but a fee? Get real.
While you're at it, put deposit on recycleable containers (juice, beer, milk) for god's sake.. it pains me to go to a party in washington (and other states), and see case after case of empty beer cans thrown in the garbage. I understand that unintelligent people can't figure out the difference between deposit and another tax, but thems the breaks. http://www.container-recycling.org/glassfact/decli ne.htm
I like the idea of paying say an extra 15, and getting 10 back when you recycle it. It's incentive for people to do it, just like with old soda bottles they used to take back and get 5 cents on. And they could test the monitors to see if they work ok and resell them for cheap. BUT, 10 is a lot of money to add to a monitor, close to 10% for a CRT and 5% for an LCD. And the other obvious question is are LCDs less waste than CRTs?
Wait, who throws this stuff away? I stockpile it. But I do agree that it should be prorated on the size/amount of PCB and whatnot in it. Maybe everything that comes out gets a recycling index number imprinted on the back, depending on how much waste it is and that number determines what you have to pay extra/what you get back when you recycle it.
Also note:
(3) the term `central processing unit' includes a case and all of its contents, such as the primary printed circuit board and its components, additional printed circuit boards, one or more disc drives, a transformer, interior wire, and a power cord;
And:
(e) ADDITIONAL EXEMPTION- The Administrator may exempt from the requirement of a fee under this section any sale made under a contract or an arrangement that the Administrator determines is likely to result in the maximum reuse of significant components of the computer, monitor, or device, and the disposal of the remaining components--
(1) in an environmentally sound and responsible manner;
(2) without violation of any Federal or State law; and
(3) without reliance on funding from State or local governments,
when the computer, monitor, or device is no longer of use to the end-user.
(f) DESIGNATION OF ELECTRONIC DEVICES- The Administrator may designate additional electronic devices to which the fee under subsection (a) shall apply if those electronic devices--
(1) contain a significant amount of material that, when disposed of, would be hazardous waste; and
(2) include one or more liquid crystal displays, cathode ray tubes, or circuit boards.
So, basically right now, only full systems seem to be called "a computer" (i.e. your standard Dell/HP/Gateway, etc., pizza box/tower). But they reserve the right for parts to later be specified, basically anything with a circuit board or LCD.
We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
Am I the only person out here who tries to get his hands on any piece of computer equipment no matter its age? I would never consider throwing out any of my computer gear. I would not like a fee added on to any computer I buy (if that fee were to be covering recycling) because I will have my computers until they turn themselves in to a pile of slag.
Vip
My idea of computer recycling is salvaging the old parts...
Gas tax, property tax, federal income tax, state income tax, social security tax, sales tax, tarrifs on goods we purchase, capital gains tax, federal telephone fees, vehicle registration (buy a nice car and now I can't even afford the plates on it) and the thousand other taxes that I cannot afford to pay.
I don't pay enough taxes. 50% of my income just isn't enough. Add it up folks. The government has $150 hammers to buy. Don't try and pawn the blame off on one political party, either. They're both guilty.
Most people have no clue what they're paying in taxes. The pump thier gas and wonder why it's so expensive but don't even see the 50 cent a gallon tax. They pay their mortgage and don't see the thousands of dollars they're paying in property tax because it's rolled into the payment. Their taxes are deducted right out of thier paycheck. I'm self employed, wait until you have to write out all these checks, it works. Are they going to tax motherboards when I build computers? This will be really good for the struggling IT economy.
I'd like to see parts being biodegradable but that's be expensive. I'd like to see non-toxic materials in hardware but that would be expensive. I'd like to see companies buy the hardware, remove what they can use, melt it down and use it again but thats expensive as well. Overall, best thing to do is take old PCs, take out the working hardware, reassemble PCs and sell them with Linux to poor people and 3rd world nations so our gov can make a profit and pay the national debt but that is expensive and financially moral. Overall, we're screwed.
I just bought a new computer from Dell, and, since I am a California resident, $8 was added to the price for the environmental impact fee. This fee was from just the LCD monitor I bought, which was $700 or so. That's a 1.1% fee.
When I buy a coke for 50 cents, I pay a 4 cent environmental fee, or 8%. The difference is that I can get that 4 cents back if I return the bottle--though in reality, it's just easier for me to drop the bottle in my recycle bin each week.
When customizing a system in which I decided to spend several hundred extra bucks for a slightly better processor and a couple more for more memory, this fee just seemed insignificant. It was lower than tax, and much lower than even shipping. I hate being "nickled and dimed" with government (and pseudo-government) fees (comprising 20% of my mobile phone bill for example), but in this case it just didn't matter to me.
I'm curious, though... since Dell already offers its own recycling program, why do they need to pay the fee? Or does California pay them part of the fee when they recycle the monitor?
Who wants to buy a $509 Mini?
Just because you sold your soul to the devil that needn't make you a teetotaler. --The Devil and Daniel Webster
I must admit, the bill seems well put together. Not being able to spend more than 10% of the raised money on administrative costs is a good idea. But one thing. The Davis lady (the one who is against the bill but hasn't read it) thinks that manufacturers should have to pay the cost, not the consumer... Where does she think the manufacturers are going to get this money? They're going to pass it onto the consumers, and probably as more than a $10 per computer increase in price. I'm happy with a $10 flat fee. But, then again, I build my own PCs...And that's another story entirely...
www.kiwilyrics.com - a wiki for lyrics
Why not just donate some those older computers to "third world" countries or to needy families?
why not tax Gates and Buffet et al., on their wealth, and use THAT revenue to recycle PCs?
And let's be honest: they aint gonna use much of any revenue from such a pc recycling tax to actually recycle PCs: they are gonna instead use it for the war machine, or for corporate welfare, or for Congressional pay raises.....
eat shiat and bark at the moon
Joking aside, this sounds simple, but enforcing this would be more trouble than most people anticipate.
* $10 a machine is arbitrary. For PC it is so little money that it won't affect behavior. For smaller stuff (like a cellphone or GameBoy) it is a larger portion of the price, and will encourage people to attempt to dodge the fee. (like buying overseas) This is countrproductive, since it's the PC's are much larger and heavier, and are the obviously the targets of this.
* Not just WHAT is a computer, but WHEN is it a computer? If I buy a barebones system (motherboard and case), is that going to incur the $10? What about when I add a harddrive and memory? CD player? Speakers? What about a monitor? If I build one at home, do I have to fill out a form and tell the gov't I've created one, and mail them $10? What about small-time mom-and-pop computer companies? New paperwork for them too?
* $10 a person isn't much, but it adds up for schools buying in bulk, particularly if every PC, monitor, printer and router incurs a seperate $10 fee. Think of the children!
* If I take two broken computers and RECYCLE some of the parts by building one decent computer, how do I get my $10 back? What if I sell this refurbished system? Do I need to add YET ANOTHER $10 onto the price? What forms will I need to fill out to make sure I don't become a criminal when I do this?
* As with all taxes: collecting it, keeping track of who has paid, tracking down tax evaders, and prosecuting them costs a lot of money. Chump change taxes like this probably cost more than they bring in if you bother to enforce them. What is wrong with all of the hundreds of little nickle-and-dime piranna taxes we already have? Can't you just raise one of them and save us the paperwork?
* "... tack on a $10 administrative fee to the sale price of computers and monitors to fund recycling efforts" Are you kidding me? Fund recycling efforts? This money will go into the big cannibal pot of cash (like all taxes do), and be spent the same way all the rest of the money is spent, so please don't pretend I'm helping to save the world by giving you $10.
* Why are we worrying about computers in landfills? Have you SEEN how big and heavy cars are?
* Dear lawmakers: Not all problems can be solved via the levying of taxes. I know that when you're a hammer, every problem looks like a nail, but don't you have anything better to do?
--This sig is in beta. Please let us know abut any errors you find.
Recycling is great if the machine is COMPLETELY unusable but if the machine/part is still in good working order, donate it to a local school instead. Schools (where I live anyways) are usually hurting for technology funding, so every little bit helps- even if it is a cd drive here and a sound card there. It makes more sense to reuse parts that still work.
In some cases, you might even be able to use it as a tax write-off.
i think that 10 should go to not-for-profit organizations already taking the initiative to help recycle old hardware (i.e. gnu.org, eff.org, etc...)
and companies such as microsoft and apple should be taxed accordingly for their efforts in keeping the hardware upgrade cycle going. under such a plan, they might figure out a way to code properly by having a modular operating system.
Gratuitous obsolesence. Flashier designs and new (generally unused) features make the software bloated (but no more useful). You need a bigger, faster machine to do exactly the same job, and your employer feels there is no choice but to upgrade because the old versions are unsupported.
Throw-away design. Today's low priced systems aren't built to last; they're built to be as cheap as possible (I do mean cheap, not just inexpensive). The lowest-bidder power supplies are not only short-lived, but sometimes downright dangerous because of improper part substitutions (yes I am an experienced power supply safety engineer; thank you for asking). Their cases are flimsy. Their cooling design is a joke. The pick-up load of old systems I just took to the recycler was typical: the decades-old 80286 machines were still working; the much newer P-IIs were no more than door stops.
Non-repairability. Even if you wanted to fix it, your only choice for repairing a three-year old PC is used or gray-market parts. The manufacturers can olny build spare parts for "current models". When the old inventory sells out there's no way to make more: the components themselves are obsolete. It's time to get off the upgrade treadmill. But how can the customers make their voices heard?
We shouldn't have to pay $10 extra, especially when we all have to pay for the M$ OS that we may or may not want. Also, how would they price individual parts that could be assembled into a computer? Would each part be $10 more costly? That'd be unfair.
Before you walk a mile in someone's shoes, you should insult them so you know how they are and what they're doing.
Here's a better idea: get rid of the PC altogether and let's all switch to Mini Macs!
665: The mark on the forehead of Satan's slightly less evil brother, Stan.
I've never thrown away a computer. I've either given them away or sold them. Somebody, somewhere is eventually going to have to throw one away, but I'm not the one.
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
We need better waste management, but wouldn't this be better at a state level? Most states already have recycling programs, couldn't we just throw our old PC into that blue bin and have the states pay for it?
...
Computers help everyone at least indirectly, and their improper disposal WILL effect everyone directly if it continues. If we have a usury tax on computer waste disposal, I say we do the same for glass bottles.. who needs glass when we have aluminum and plastic? 50 tax on each I says!
Ideally, this type of sanitation is the states' responsibility as it is THEIR landfills that become toxic. I didn't vote against John McCain so he could tax my computer!
This quasi-libertarian says no usury tax, and you should too.
Latewire
Here's how it works in Japan, where virtually everyone has a computer, and land dumps are not a viable option.
First of all, the gov't does NOT pocket $10. Unlike automobiles (which have had an approx. $250 recycle tax tacked onto all new vehicle sales as of this year I believe), computers are still sold at the same cost as before. However, the city will not accept them as garbage. No one (legally) will. You need to call the manufacturer, which has a recycling fee list for each device. On receipt of the call, they'll give you a tracking number, and you pay your fees. Usually about $15 for a computer, $15 for a monitor, and so on so forth. In return, the post office will deliver a special computer transportation box, which you pack your computer in. It is then shipped off to the manufacturer, which is legally required to recycle. Recycle rates are actually pretty impressive.
This was actually an extension to the household appliances recycle laws that passed a few years ago. TVs, air conditioners, washing machines, dryers and refrigerators all need to be sent back to the manufacturer for recycling. Unlike computers, however, your local electrical appliance shops are required to do the pickup. (They'll come to your house with a truck.)
In both computer and appliances, if the manufacturer is bankrupt, or you built it yourself in the first place, you call the local municipal gov't which will pick it up (same rough cost) and recycle it for you.
Some people probably think this will just lead to people taking apart their junk computers, amd trashing them piece by piece to avoid the recycle cost. This doesn't quite work that well though. The case will likely exceed standard garbage size limits (yes, we have such a thing), so you'll still need to pay something like $5 to $15 to have the city dispose your case. That considered, there's not much of a savings associated, and certainly not a clean conscience. Sure, you could dump it in the river, but this doesn't seem to be a big issue with normal citizens, only organized illegal garbage collecting companies which do it large scale.
All in all, it works quite well. Truth is, now that the laws are in place, with very easy to understand requirements for the manufacturer to take back what they sold, it is much much easier to get things recycled, and the cost is not that big of a deal. And I don't really need to worry about the gov't pocketing the cost.
Today I fed 30 brand new, in the box P4 dell computers, and four 72" plasma screen tvs into a giant shredder. I nearly cried.
for the curious, they had damaged plastics, shipping insurance covered replacement and the originals had to be distroyed, there were marshals on hand to oversee the shredding.
I read that too: the term `central processing unit' includes a case and all of its contents
So, how would this apply to people who build their own computers? If I buy by the part, would I only be taxed on the monitor?
Give a man fire, and you warm him for the night. Set a man on fire, and you warm him for the rest of his life.
Lets see...
Meeting the criteria...
For section (4):
My Dell Inspiron 5150 notebook pc is electronic [meets first criterium] (and others could be argued), data processing device [there's criterium #2], and it is used by me as a handheld calculator (I hold it in my left hand and type with the right hand, ask anyone at my College that has a class with me) [FAILs criterium #3] -- NO CHARGING
Now then:
My notebook also meets (f)(1) [battery] and (f)(2) [I guess this screen counts].
My telephone is electronic [criterium 1], performs storage functions [criterium 2], and is not a typewriter/typesetter/portable hand held calculator [criterium 3] includes one or more licquid crystal displays AND circuit boards. Hmmm... So my Dell Inspiron 5150 is exempt under section (4), can be added in later, but my telephone is not exempt in any way, shape, or form......
Video Production Support
On August 1 2005, a new EU directive will come into force. It will make manufacturers/resellers of consumer electronics responsible for recycling their own product. That is, the customer is entitled to return his product for recycling for free.
I think this sounds like a better idea than yet another inefficiently run government program, as it gives some incentive to the manufacturer to reduce recycling costs, e.g. by running the recycling center as efficienty as possible but also by designing products that are as easy to recycle as possible.
In Switzerland, the association SWICO is charged by the state to deal with electronics recycling of all kinds. When you buy an electronic device (even chainsaws count), a recycling fee is added to the price. Then, when the thing dies, you can take it back to any store in the country that carries similar stock. In reality though, even stores that don't sell any computers or monitors will take them back -- the company that picks up and recycles the stuff is the same anyway. The stores are required by law to cooperate and can't weasel out if you bring them a 15 year old 20" monitor and they only sell LED flashflight keyrings.
The fees are very moderate, I never paid more than 7 francs (5 EUR) for a computer, perhaps 15 francs for a rather big dishwasher. With computing equipment, the fee is calculated by the price of the item. Household machinery goes by weight.
Many companies, especially IT, still try to make a very small amount of money by selling off their inventory once it gets replaced, so it's not like we all just dump trucks full of laptops at Mom & Dad's Electric Toothbrush Wonderland. But once the thing refuses to boot, it's good to know I can take it back to any store.
This even covers items sold before 1994 (when recycling became The Law). We've had a few years of experience with this system, and I don't know of anyone who's unhappy with it so far. So: yay for mandatory electronics recycling.
Why are do-gooders always trying to get their hands in our pockets?
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Freecycling is a great way to get rid of an old computer that you don't want. Check out http://www.freecycle.org/ for a group in your area.
That's not necessarily the way I read the bill. It says that typewriters and handheld calculators are exempted, but the terminology is so archaic there, that just about anything sold today could be deemed to fall outside that exemption! If we got a money-hungry administrator in office, we could be paying $10 on a $10 electronic addressbook, etc. I doubt very much if it would get that bad, but certainly $10 on a CRT monitor is pretty steep, since the the smaller ones are starting at $49 or so (a 20% tax!)
Where would the profit made from this tax go towards? If it was something constructive, like put back into develpment in the IT field, then I guess I could be for this. It all depends where the money goes.
I'd imagine that most of the local computer stores closed due to lack of business? I know small business owners that buy approximately 10 computers every year. They'd simply drive outside city limits to save $300. It's a no-brainer.
I don't see how this law is effective.
-- No sig for you!
no laws specifically state every little thing. they can technically consider a programmable calculator to be a computer. but i have a feeling it's jsut a calculator to them. and i have a feeling the telephone falls under the "similar devices" category. your laptop is not exempt under section 4 because it is not a calculator, plain and simple. i want to see you hold it for half an hour and type like that without dropping it. and if you can, you either have really good balance or you're a robot. and if you're a robot, you probably cost $10 more after this law is passed. ;)
seriously... you're being a dumb college student saying taht your laptop is a calculator... although given that it's a dell, it's worth not much more than one... biggest problem laptops i've seen recently have come from dell...
please me, have no regrets.
A lot of times, places will just throw out very usable systems. I know the article said that reselling these systems has raised red flags (bullshit, IMHO), but what about the family that can't afford a computer to help their kid with research projects for school?
Hardware is just a small part of the problem causing the "digital divide", and nobody seems to really care. Having come from a low-income home, I DO care.
I tried a while back to get people together to start a non-profit organization to help out the underprivileged, but when it came down to the wire and the "how much will I get paid" questions, everyone seemed to be uninterested in it.
Just like these "tree-huggers" trying to avoid the resale of perfectly usable hardware, everyone is greedy and doesn't want to see the poverty-stricken children grow up with at least SOME exposure to computing unless it means something for them.
All I can say is that I hope the people that are pushing this bill with no elbow room on either side of it don't sleep tonight. I'm sick and tired of seeing this crap.
If you want to take my idea and run with it, have some background on it: http://digivisions.skudd.com/
As of February 1, 2005, persons buying electronic equipment in Alberta are subject to paying a fee ranging from $5 (Laptops) to $45 (46"+ TV)
It came as quite a surprise to most. I received a fax about a week before it became effective and about 2 days before I heard it mentioned on the news.
Electronic Recycling Products and fees
the US is always doing things last when it comes to health and environment.
In the netherlands we've had this for years allready. You pay a small extra for a heardryer, a toaster etc... and a bigger one for tv's, washing machines...
Tax revenue & political grandstanding! Some might call an agenda to create more government jobs. "Look what I did! I created 1000 government jobs nationwide!"
Funny, we don't see or hear anything about TVs or microwaves, and I guarantee you that there are more TVs out there, and more TVs getting thrown away than there are computers. Microwaves, same thing. Yet we don't hear a thing from any of these politicians about those...
I suspect that this is a popular topic simply because it's fashionable. People talk about getting a new computer all the time. They rarely talk about getting a new TV, yet new TVs are sold in amazing quantities. 99% of the people have more TVs than they have computers.
I smell some narrow-minded politicians, looking for "face time".
-- No sig for you!
"I know, lets's put a tax on computers!" "Hmmm, but nobody is going to accept that!" "We could tell them it's all for the environment and good for them!" "But nobody will believe that...." "They seem to believe in thie global warming we keep hyping up as an excuse for all kinds of new taxes." "Hehe, yeah!"
Dell shipments I received since the first all have this notation on the invoice:
"CA SHIPMENTS ST ENVIRO FEE UP TO $10 PER ITEM WILL BE ADDED TO ORDE"
I think the bill should be expanded to force AOL to pay a $.10 recycle fee for every unsolicited CD they send out.
I would give up to $100 to make sure that peecees are recycled properly.
probably it ends up like this
(And for a larger perspective I came up with while in a obviously fevered state, check out my horrible hyperlink haiku)
Someone had to do it.
You see, out here in the beautiful paradise of Hawai'i, the state government passed a law requiring us to pay a 5c deposit on every beverage container that we buy. The law says that we are supposed to return the bottles for a refund of the fee.
However, we have to drive to special designated recycling centers to get the deposit, AND, we must not crush the bottles or cans that we are turning in, as that would destroy the label indicating that the 5c deposit has been paid.
Basically, they set it up so that there's a 5c tax on every beverage container because unless their time is absolutely worthless, no one in their right mind is going to horde uncrushed containers so that they can get 5c a piece back for them.
In addition to that, there is also an additional penny per container "fee" to administer the program. Basically, we have a new tax thinly veiled as something to help the environment.
Wh47 d1d j00 541, 31337 15n't t3h r0xor5 ne m0r3???
A couple of years ago, during our annual campout, we took 5 old hard drives, duct taped them in a stack, placed them on a rock vertically (like books on a shelf), and shot two holes through them (one near the cable connector, the other ~2cm off from the center of the platters) with a high powered assault rifle. All 5 drives were penetrated.
We later threw them into the fire pit, where they melted into a puddle (very hot fire). The only thing recognizable was the circuit boards (the layers had burned away, leaving only the traces, kind of interesting).
Ok, maybe not practical, but a hell of a lot of fun. And it's recycling. We didn't need to buy paper targets the next year, we had a box full of dead drives (and a monitor - note, don't breack out screen and replace it with a full disposable can of propane - not good).
goes to non-recycling purposes? Hypothetical example would be perhaps 10 cents out of that $10 to fund education, or maybe even road construction. What happens to the excess funds?
Article 3. Covered Electronic Waste Recycling Fee
42464. (a) On and after January 1, 2005 a covered electronic waste recycling fee is hereby imposed upon the first sale in the state of a covered electronic device to a consumer by a retailer. (b) A retailer that sells a covered electronic device to a consumer shall collect the fee imposed under subdivision (a) for each covered electronic device sold by the retailer in the following amounts:
(1) Six dollars ($6) for each covered electronic device with a screen size of greater than 4 inches measured diagonally but less than 15 inches measured diagonally.
(2) Eight dollars ($8) for each covered electronic device with a screen size greater than or equal to 15 inches but less than 35 inches measured diagonally.
(3) Ten dollars ($10) for each covered electronic device with a screen size greater than or equal to 35 inches measured diagonally.
For every action there is an equal and opposite government program. I'm not saying that recycling is not a noble idea, but I am sick to death of every little goverment agency dipping into my pocket. Most states already have disposal centers for things like TVs, monitors, batteries and other hazardous waste.
No one of consequence
Not to troll, but hasn't anyone learned anything about recycling?? In my eyes it causes more pollution than it saves.. Saving space != Saving AIR space. I would rather have to walk around computer components than breath toxic air. Just my opinion.
There's a simpler term for this. It's called a "Tax". It will never be used to pay for recycling. Instead it will be used to pay for pork projects and other forms of government waste. The moment anybody points this out they will be accused of attempting to "starve children and keep old people from getting their medicine". What a crock.
The Silcon Valley Toxics Coalition http://www.svtc.org/has some very interesting links to articles related to computer and enviroment. I am not worried about the space issue of throwing away the computers, I am worried about the issue of putting all the lead (and other materials) into our eviroment. The World needs to realize just how costly computers are going to be to our eviroment in both creation and disposal. The $10 per computer will not be enough to even think about covering the true cost of getting any computer disposed of safely. I can't say live without computers, but people need to think about buying less of them, and using them longer. Hopefully Linux will have a role in this.
mnewberg.com
Why don't they call this what it is.....it's a TAX. They aren't going to recycle your computers. They just want more of OUR money. Writer your congressman. REJECT this bill.
Gorkman
I build my own computers. I buy all the components seperately and assemble them as I see fit. (The only exception being my laptop.) Will this fee only apply to pre-assembled/manufactured computers or will they try and apply it to the purchase of cpu's, motherboards, and/or other components?
"National PC Recycling Plan Proposed, Again". So, you could say the plan has been "recycled". Ba doom doom.
That's what you get from reading too much Fark...
There are only two things certain in life, death and taxes, or so the saying goes.
...or will the government tax us to death in order to "recycle" them?
So does this mean that either we'll die from all the toxic chemicals leeching into the water table from all the computers being landfilled?
Either way.
I suppose this is yet another price we must pay to have the latest and greatest (Windows XP, anyone?) just because it's the latest and greatest. Personally, I bet most people could do just fine running a 486 or Pentium, but hey, people want all the fancy graphics, multimedia, and so forth.
Personally, I like the idea of a "too good to throw away" section at the landfill. People leave old (486/Pentium all the way through late PIIIs) equipment and others like me can scavenge and rip out parts (or take the whole thing away with us).
Only thing I may ever throw away is an occasional dead PSU or an ancient proprietary case.
I work for a mid-size publishing company in the San Francisco Bay Area and we just purchased 125+ computers. We had too big of a conscience to throw the old ones away; furthermore, it's illegal in my city to throw away electronics which contain harmful metals or substances like lead or asbestos. I found one company in the area that actually recycled the computers by reclaiming all metals and plastics that they could, most of the others sent the systems to places in Asia to be put into landfills and the other "recyclers" just sold them back to the public. My company ended up paying ~$1750USD to recycle about 100 of the old computers plus monitors, keyboards, and mice. When I think of all of the harmful substances and useful items that were properly taken care of for these 100 systems, it shocks me to think about how much polluting waste was kept out of the environment and how much goes unreclaimed anually in my state, country and the world.
I just moved here 2 years ago. One of the biggest changes most Americans notice upon moving here is recycling. Germans recycle basically everything. You've got returns on drink bottles, separate recycling of glass for those items that don't have a return, clothing and shoes, special recycling on batteries, a special recycling day just for Christmas trees, biodegradable waste, paper, and the "yellow sack" system that includes recyclable plastics, steel, aluminum, etc. There's only a very small bit of stuff leftover that makes it to regular trash. It's a pain to learn at first, and there are some ambiguities I still haven't figured out. However, overall it works for me because the government makes it convenient for the average household. Now whether it's actually cost effective, I really don't know. I know that there have been some controversies over what really happens to the yellow sack materials. However, it's made convenient for me so I make full use of it whenever I can.
In any case, recycling of computers really makes me kinda wonder. Yeah, I'm sure that there's nasty stuff in computers that ideally shouldn't make its way into a normal dump. But what do you actually do with it? Can you really recycle this stuff? I can't imagine someone tearing open a CRT monitor, risking high voltage electric death, to scrape lead out of a vacuum tube. Shouldn't other items that are more recyclable be higher priorities? How about a national system for recycling aluminum, paper, and plastics that makes it convenient for households to perform? We can actually do something useful with that stuff. Maybe we ought to be looking at particular components of computers and electronics devices, namely the batteries, before going for the computers as a whole. Let's try to crawl before we run a marathon race.
I also see some irony in the same country that is legally shielding printer manufacturers from ink cartridge reuse/recycling turning around and ordering the "recycling" of computers.
make much more sense.
you already pay an 'administrative fee' in most states when you purchase a computer. It's called a TAX you morons.
As we all know, additional TAX has a way of getting spent in ways far removed from the original goal. Recycling studies and reports, increasing the numbers of women and minorities in recycling, TV advertisements on the 'goodness' of recycling, etc.
It also does nothing to promote recycling on the part of the person who has paid the fee. Whereas a deposit makes it attractive for people who might enjoy driving around and picking from trash to handle the recycling for those who couldn't be bothered.
And here is the best thing about deposits. They can be applied immediately to older stuff that was no part of the 'program'. This works because the deposit is always being redeemed in the future. Kind of like social security.
So why shouldn't it also work in the US, where likely the highest volume of computers and electronics is being used (or thrown away). Here in Switzerland we've had a mandatory recycling fee of 20.- (15$) for quite some time and hardly anyone has been complaining about it. For about a year, you can now have your electronics recycled or having taken care of for free in every community with a recycling center (glass, metal, oil, PET, PE, batteries, gas cans, green waste etc). You paid for it in advance, after all. Works nicely and eliminates the problem of wrongly discarded materials a lot. When again, we also signed the Kyoto protocols... This might be something your NEXT president might push through.
I dunno...how do things like gas guzzler taxes apply to people who build their own cars?
no vouchers and no problem :)
/C
The EU just stated that any manufactuer of electronics had to take back their products att no cost and take care of them.
Sery simple legislation and the companies had to solve the problem. their solution was to contract the recycling companies and give a set amount for each pieceof kit returned. Minimum cost for consumers and no goverment overhead.
(added bennefit: companies figured out that products that are simpler to recycle will be cheaper and have moved to better design.)
You dont have to be an analretentive nitpicker to be a tester.... But it helps
Everyone is dumping perfectly serviceable CRTs for LCDs. You can't *give* away a 15" CRT, and even 17" models are hard to shift for 10-20UKP. There's a lot of material in a CRT compared to an LCD, too.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
There's a simpler term for this. It's called a "Tax". It will never be used to pay for recycling. Instead it will be used to pay for pork projects and other forms of government waste. The moment anybody points this out they will be accused of attempting to "starve children and keep old people from getting their medicine".
Exactly. I highly doubt any of this is going to increase recycling, but it is going to inflict $20-40 cost on every new computer system sold. It will be just like the environmental tax on tires in my state. Add $3 when they are sold, and add another $1 per item when you dispose of it. But the garage still has to pay someone to haul it away as the fee goes to the state and is spent on other things.
It's simply resulted in massive amounts of tires being thrown away in alleys rather than disposed of properly.
I highly doubt ant front end fee at the federal level is going to generate even a single recycling center on the ground. It may generate a ton of new rules for your garbage man, that he might have to sort it and pay someone else to haul it away, but this will just be tacked on to your garbage bill, the $10-40 you paid up front wont go to that at all. That is the way these things work out in the real world.
This is a ripoff.
Freedom is merely privilege extended unless enjoyed by one and all.
gas is short for gasoline
petrol is short for petroleum
and gas would cost even more per gallon if the US used "proper" imperial gallons instead of those quaint little American ones.
What gets up my back is that many of the so called scrap machines are only tossed because they lack the power to run the latest bloated windows. Many of these machine will run Linux extremely well.
Oh yeah. I forgot about that part in the Constitution that says the government should be involved in recycling PRINTING PRESSES. So, you know, it stands to reason that this should be extended to COMPUTERS. Congress ought to be disbanded for about 10 or 20 years. We have all the laws we could possibly use right now, thank you very much.
The gap is already being filled in the private sector, as is always the case. In my small town, there's a United Way agency that takes outdated computers from local businesses (with two Fortune 250 companies, they get some "decent" stuff), refurbishes them, and gives them away to grade-school children. The school system picks up the tab, and they've even partnered with a local ISP for internet access. I've personally given a lot of stuff to the program, and, of course, it's all tax deductable. Everybody wins in this scenario, and there's no need for the government to be involved.
Acts 17:28, "For in Him we live, and move, and have our being."
What does the federal government have to do with waster removal and recycling?
Oh yeah, nothing. Which means this "Administrative fee" will be swallowed by the maw that is the federal budget and yet nothing will get recycled.
Clear, Dark Skies
The only problem is that the federal government doesn't handle waste removal - that's a state/local responsibility.
If the feds collect money for recycling and then divvy it up among the states, which then divvy it up among the counties, that means 80% of the money is going to get sucked up by administrative overhead.
Clear, Dark Skies
They're both Democrats. "You know, the word 'tax' has fallen out of favor. Let's call them 'administrative fees.'" That's all this is, really.
I think recycling would die altogether if $20 tax was added onto a $50 'recycled' system. Refurbished/repaired/rebuilt systems should have lower tax rates. Can't compete with this Chinese stuff - which we know - does not last as long.
Freakin Democrats All they know how to do is tax and sifle creativity.... Give me 535 clones of George bush and we'll fix the problem.
It's bad enough lawmakers are sticking fees and surcharges in everything from cell phone bills to cigarettes. Now they want to add $10 to the cost of computers under the guise of environmentalism? WE DO NOT HAVE A LANDFILL PROBLEM! We do NOT need to recycle computers unless that means giving them to the poor.
"an...electrochemical, or other high speed data processing device performing logical, arithmetic, or storage functions"
This would seem to include the human brain. Where do we turn in the used ones? And can I pick up a bunch to make a nifty cluster?
Thus LCD displays should also be recycled or disposed of properly, not just incinerated or buried.
In fact many states do 'tax' bottles in the form of a return deposit; it's worked incredibly well at getting them recycled.
It's about the least intrusive and lowest overhead way to get the job done, as anyone but the most dogmatic libertarian would recognize.
signed,
former dogmatic libertarian
Last year for the hell of it I took a class that actually looked at computer recycling. Not only did we look at what currently happens in a lot of places (eg. monitors sent to China, environmental disaster ensues) but at the other options as well.
I took a tour Noranda Recycling where they use an environmentally friendly process to recycle the electronics, but here is the thing. Almost everything they were sending throgh the shredder was new. I guess when something is returning twice to a store, functioning or not it is marked for desstruction. You can imagine the pain of watching hundreds of digital cameras sent into the shredder. After wards I asked the foreman if they ever took things home. He said that there was a strict policy to not take anything, working or not and that someone was fired every week for taking things. Laptops, memory, cameras it all went into the shredder. Enough to make a grown geek cry.
I just wanted to add, this place was hemoraging money as well.
Good analogy.
Because there are a whole crapload of people out there that build their own cars.....
Karnal
it doesn't matter what measurement its in, the cost to fill up the tank remains the same. Imperial gallons can cost more, but take less to fill the tank. Who taught you to convert units?
Don't forget about Freegeek in downtown Portland. They recyle most stuff for free but do have a "suggested" fee for some things like monitors. They also have links to other recycling programs.
...does that mean I no longer get charged for donating these recyclable materials? (At the time of donation, I mean. My point is that I would already have been charged and shouldn't have to pay again.)
Hey, they built it and shipped it here. It's only fitting they take the garbage back once it's no longer useful.
I am astonished by the number and shrillness of people objecting to a $10 recycling fee. It's not whether or how we can recycle computers but how to keep them out of the public dump. Some communities may have plans for taking in old and unwanted computers but I don't know if any in or around Detroit where I live. I've got a couple boxes of old, non-working coputer parts that I'd love to get rid of ...but where? It sounds to me like this fee would fund drop-off points where people could get rid of their old computers. What happens next is a good question, but just having a place where one can properly dispose of old electronics seems like a good idea. And it seems like an even better idea to do it on a national level then on a state level, because a lot of states are either too broke or too damn cheap to do it themselves.
In Michigan we have a bottle deposite law that retailors hate... but...it has vastly reduce the amount of trash on the roadside and improved the quality of public lands immensely. Sure not every botten gets recycled so there is left-over money and fights over who should get that money but that's trivial compared to the good the bottle deposit bill has done. A similar computer deposit bill can only be for the best.
Well I'd like to see the actual cost of proper disposal to be added to the cost of all items. And the money should be removed at the time of purchase and put in a government held fund so companies can't welch out by going tactically bankrupt etc.
Hell I'd also like the cost of non renewable resources to be increased dramatically.
This would have many benefits. The first being that we'd fill the environment with less crap for future generations to deal with and it might encourage people both to use sustainable resources in the crap they produce and also to make stuff that lasts longer than (gurantee_period + 5 seconds).
At the very least you should be able to get spare parts for stuff long after it's no longer made then at least you could repair it.
But then again I also believe in making the polluters pay so I must be living in cloud cuckoo land.
Sky subscribers are morons. They pay to be advertised at !
ok.. so I have some old (486->300k6 cpus, ISA expansion cards, 32-pin SIMMs, old minitower cases, etc..), but not enough to assemble into full computers..
The problem also arises that the 'common' charity cases (Schools, etc..) are pretty decent on the tech scale, and wouldn't want my old hardware.. this is a unversity town, so most the population already has more-modern computers..
It's all in various states of operational ability, and I don't want to try and find working PCs of that era to test out 1x SB16 or something..
Someone please let me know what I cna do with all this old junk?.. and NO, I don't want to make them *nix systems (I have older PCs doing that now already)
It's been an annoyance and I'm starting to get sick of it and looking into the garbage as a more viable option every day.
Suggestions?
----- The internet has given everyone the ability to have their voice heard equally as loud.. even if they shouldn't be
How about charging end-users $x per gram of toxic materials in a given piece of equipment, with $0 if the end-result product is safely land-fillable.
A Linux-wristwatch is probably safe to landfill from a toxic-waste standpoint, once the batteries are removed. The batteries themselves though might be subject to such a fee.
An "low-toxin" PC or monitor should have a lower recycling fee than a less-clean one.
As for programs to encourage general recycling of non-toxic items, that should be part of our overall tax base, rather than a dedicated user fee.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
This is finally a way to get rid of the ???.
It used to be:
1. Do something with computers.
2. ???
3. Proft!
If this bill passes, a bunch of people will:
1. Do something with computers.
2. Get a recycling-fee funded grant.
3. Proft!
Exam 4/C again. Maybe I'll do better this time.
I'm all for people disposing of their computers in a responsible manner, but do we really need the government involved? It's going to wind up costing people more money and even then, most people won't bother with their program anyway-their old computers will still sit, unused and gathering dust in basements, garages and bedroom closets until someone gets tired of them and puts them out with the garbage.
Or are we going to make it a federal offence to do that?
Do we NEED this, or is it just a fine sounding idea designed to make us feel better but which won't wind up helping much (if at all)?
The real question is: how much government intereference in our daily lives is too much?
Have you taken a look at the national debt lately? How about the underlying federal budgeting process? The vast majority of the states do it a heck of a lot better than federal goverment ever has.
Standard libertarianista federalista mumbo-jumbo propaganda unbacked by any sorts of actual examples or proof.
Sounds true to the average "pissed off about the gubmit" uninformed citizen, but for anyone with any real knowledge of policies and good governance, such tripe is way too simplistic and entirely harmful.
State programs are sometimes better.
Federal programs are sometimes better.
Often the only way to know which will be better is to try them out for a while.
Translation: If my buddy is a Congressman or a Senator, I can now get a government grant to pick up old PCs, throw them into shipping crates and sell 'em to the Third World, where they'll be... uh... "recycled". Heh.
Plenty of people are making money before doing this. Now I get the taxpayer to fund it. A donation to your rep is the best $500 you'll ever spend. (And to his 527, the best $5000 you'll ever spend.)
Nice work if you can get it.
Man...first, things taste much BETTER in glass. Beer is superior in bottles than in can...and I'm saddened that I can hardly find Coke in glass anymore...only the little ones on occasion. I'll pay the extra for bottles everytime over beer. Only time I do canned beer is when boating or around the swimming pool where glass can be a hazard.
Maybe you're too young to remember..but,glass bottle used to have a deposit that was refundable. I remember as a kid, hunting down bottles on the road to return to the store to get the deposit on them. Used to keep me in 'gum' money...dunno why they stopped doing that.
I like the glass thing better....and I'd think it would be easier to recycle..you don't have to crush and reprocess it...just wash the damned bottle and refill and recap it...
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
The local landfill assesses a fee of $10 to $18 to dispose of CRT displays depending on size. Are they going to stop collecting this fee when this tax goes into effect? Or at least reduce it by $10? Maybe they'll check production dates on old monitors to determine who pays the tax. Or, maybe, the cost can be factored into the price and the manufacturer can pay for the real cost of disposal as has been suggested in other comments. I have two dead 19" monitors that are sitting around my house, waiting for another one of those deals where some big retailer will take them off my hands for free. If I move before that happens, they're likely going in a dumpster. They're going to charge me for the cost of recycling, and then it's not even going to get recycled, or will be "recycled" in a way that will put all of that pollution into the air immediately - it can get not really recycled here just as easily as it can in China. The only difference is that if the pollution is here it will be dealt with, and if the pollution is in China no one will do anything about it.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
As P.J. O'Rourke once noted, recycling rarely ever works as advertised. The reason being things that still have value after being used (a car or a house for instance) don't have to be recycled, you can just sell them to someone. Recycling just spends a lot of money trying to sell something hardly anyone wants to buy.
At the 2004 OsCON I heard about a Portland Ore. group called 'Free Geek'. From what I understand they take old computers, and reconfigure them for novices then give them away. They spend up to 12 hours helping the novice plug in cards, and IDE cables, load Linux etc. When they are finished the novice is at lest minimally competent. In exchange the novice volunteers some of his time to help the next group and so on.
They pay for their rent, and the one full time 'employee' with the money they get from the gold and copper in the motherboards and parts that they cannot use, and must send to the scrap heap.
Seems like a much better approach than another layer of bureaucracy.
Congress doesn't have unlimited authority, despite what it believes.
The problem is that it now costs less to produce a nice new aluminum can than it does to wash a bottle.
However, it still happens to some degree. You *can* still buy returnable beer bottles in many states. Take a look sometime--they show visible wear, particularly near the bottom and at the shoulder.
It's been a while since I've encountred soda in glass, but hte last time I did, I noticed that a couple of bottles had "ancient" labeling on them; they were at least 20 years old.
hawk
Currently the going market price to dispose of them is between $5-$20 no matter what size it is. Many states have laws (Massachusetts and New Jersey are ones I'm aware of) that require that you dispose of them properly. This law would incure the cost up front to make sure there is no incentive for people to dump them on the side of the road to avoid paying a disposal cost.
Yet another oblivious Slashdot fool who cannot spot a joke unless it hits them in the face.
The sarcasm eludes you.
The way they have this written ensures that it won't pass. They're trying to put a flat tax on a "computer" which they can't really define.
The moment they try to define what makes a "computer" is the moment that they begin stepping on people's toes. If they try to describe which key parts in the computer makes it a "computer" and gets the tax, the manufacturers of those key part will have a great case to complain that they are being discriminated against while other electronics manufacturers get off free.
Also, the text of this bill is the same text that was in a previous bill that was shot down. Do they expect everyone to change their minds this time?
I think a more sensible bill would ditch the idea of a flat tax on a "computer", and instead levy an impact fee on the individual components of all electronics based on their materials content. That way the companies that put more toxic materials in their products must pay more tax, and the companies that make products using more friendly materials are rewarded with less tax.
More likely, it is going to cost more than the $10 to recycle...
If it sinks, it's just going to displace the same amount of water no matter how much it weighs.
A cubic meter of aluminum will displace the same amount of water as a cubic meter of steel, or a cubic meter of lead. All three will sink and displace 1 cubic meter of water.
Tack on 10 bucks to a 20 year old machine, and you blow the entire market.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
What about DIYers, will there be any surcharge for individual components like cases or will we be saving an additional 10 bucks (besides the big savings of building yourself)?
The trash comes to Pennsylvania (as opposed to New Jersey or to staying locally) because Pennsylvania's state laws permit it. The feds control the highways, but what happens to the trash when it leaves the road is controlled locally.
Clear, Dark Skies
(3) the term `central processing unit' includes a case and all of its contents, such as the primary printed circuit board and its components, additional printed circuit boards, one or more disc drives, a transformer, interior wire, and a power cord;
OMFG, these people are really morons, they dare to start redefining the term CPU to be the entire case as opposed to just the processor chip.
I know I'm replying to this kind of late, but I found this while meta-modding and thought I should reply to it.
Of course you are not going to agree with everything the government does with your money. However, if the government politely asked you which causes you wanted your tax money donated towards, nothing would get done.
Remember your US History? Shay's rebellion (although it was on a state level instead of on a personal level) was a fine example of this. Nobody else wanted to chip in to help the mayor of Massachusets to put down the rebellion. Nobody else agreed with it. Nobody else cared. That's why the Constitution gives the federal government to tax you, so you will pay for things that you don't agree with or don't care about. If you really care that much about 'pork projects' and 'government', and are THAT adamant about not wanting your tax dollars go toward something, call your congressman. Get people to care. But don't knock a system that's supposed to keep people's selfishness from crippling a government.
I'm the guy with the unpopular opinion
Re Alberta Canada Recycling tax
s /s tory.html?id=81125574-ff32-4a86-adcd-538ce02e7cd0
Its easy to rip of the ordinary people but why not do the right thing and make the polluter (the manufacturer) pay like most responsible governments have (EU WEEE Directive). This is just a tax grab introduced by the former minister Lorne Taylor on behalf of his millionaire friends at MAXUS Technology (Calgary company listed on NASDAQ) that obviously was making a profit from recycling before hence their NASDAQ listing and now want even more easy money from us the tax payers the poor schmucks.
Check out the comments at the bottom of this article:
http://www.canada.com/calgary/calgaryherald/new