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Australia's 'e-tax' Windows Only
Kinky Bass Junk writes "As the need to submit tax returns is looming, notification emails are sent out to users of the tax office's services. This year, the Australia Tax Office (ATO) is using a web-based tax return system, as well as the traditional paper based systems. The e-tax website has all the details, and the requirements of the software stand out: 'e-tax is not compatible with Linux or Apple Macintosh computers. However, if you have suitable Windows Emulator software installed, you may be able to use e-tax.' Here is a protest email I have set up for those who disagree with this."
I was hoping that was a tax on windows... oh well.
He slashdotted himself?
Yep, the "e-mail" is slashdotted already.,
Official Heretic from the "Church of Global Warming". Proven right thanks to whistle blowers. AGW = Flat Earth Theory
Perhaps this is a tax on Windows users. Linux & Mac users need not worry about paying it.
The story has been posted for a minute and the link is already down... or is it that someone cannot copy/paste?
-Code
for keeping the US economy strong. It's nice to know that when anyone pays a tax in Austrailia, they also pay a tax to Redmond to keep our economy here alive.
The protest email is a 404. You would think the editors would actually check thier links. But no, they can't even do that.
Please ensure you have bandwidth available before submitting yourself to the /. effect.
"Kinky" indeed.
Mr. T pitied this fool on 27 July 1992.
http://freemm.org/content/view/16/2/
This is not expected from federal agencies. Seriously.
hilarious
Only 5 minutes and the government has already killed that E-mail. Impressive!
My Linux - (L)ove (I)s (N)ever (U)tterly eXPensive
e-tax has been windows only for years. I use a mac and have Virtual PC installed so it works fine. In fact, I think it's the only thing I use Virtual PC for.
"Sorry, I can't pay my taxes, I run OS/2"
You can apparently read the first paragraph of the protest here:
Today I come to you with a sincere request, that should appeal to the self-confessed geeks, and to the socially aware. The Australia Gov't hosts a service known as e-tax to submit your tax return through the Internet, this service has been widely heralded as a success. However, this does not apply to everyone; the educated minority of the Internet world often choose to use alternative operating systems, such as Mac OS or Linux, this software makes claim that you must use an emulator, should you choose to use these OS's. If you know anything about software emulation, you know that it is a difficult task, and one that is preferably avoided. My request is as follows: send an email similar to the one in the furthur text, at the address given, and phone up to register your disgust at this clear favour to global monopolies.
Why doesn't the Australian government provide the source code to the public? I'm sure that there would be plenty of programmers willing to port the program to other platforms.
I have discovered a truly remarkable proof of this theorem that this sig is too small to contain.
The web based e-tax forms in my country work perfectly with Firefox on Linux. Our neighbours in Germany have a similar problem like the Aussies: The only available free (as in beer) program for their electronic tax forms is for Windows.
They're really talking about sharp, pointy tacks, to remind users of the hell they are in.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Just for fun, I tried running it with the latest CVS of Wine. It installs fine (which is most of the problem with Wine these days.) It also launches fine. I wasn't able to get too far since I don't have an Australian tax ID number, but it was enough to launch the program. The help screens were written using the old MS help system and not the newer CHM, so you can use Wine's internal winhelp viewer to view it all. The controls seem to be pretty old, so I imagine the app runs fine with Wine.
I'd give their website a C- for usability. It seems way too technical for the average user to download the app in the first place. They have 4 links before the app download about patches, the description of which would be meaningless to most users and not obvious that they don't need them.
----- obSig
Do you know how big an idiot I feel? I had problems with mod_rewrite and .htaccess at the worst possible time, but it's all fixed now :)
Sorry again.
Anonymous Coward
Come on.
They don't say that it will never become available to Linux and Mac users, simply that it's only out for Windows right now. Think about it for a minute. You only have time to get a single version of the client ready so which OS do you support first? You could release a Linux or Mac client and reach a fraction of your users or a Windows client and reach a large majority. Hmmm, let's see...
Besides, it doesn't sound like the emulation is that tough. Getting Wine working on Linux with simple applications certainly isn't difficult, this coming from a Linux "n00b". I don't know for certain, but I'd imagine that a tax return application would emulate easily enough.
Give them a break and stop whining. Not to tout Windows or bash Linux, but this is what happens when you've chosen to use an operating system with a very small consumer market share. Give it time.
"What do you despise? By this are you truly known." --Princess Irulan, Manual of Muad'Dib
/)
- Study the program and the resulting data and write a workalike program for your favourite platform.
- Put in a Freedom Of Information Act request for the source code to this program so you can port it to your favourite platform.
- Work on WINE so it can run this program as it has been written.
- Study the tax system and develop a program that works better than the original so people on alternative platforms don't feel the need to boot into Windows to use the "official" software.
Of course, every one of these involves some kind of work and doesn't have the quick fix appeal of sending an email to a public servant who is just trying to do his job.How we know is more important than what we know.
The test has found you are not using Internet explorer
.exe file. In fact, the more I read this site, the less this "IE only" thing makes sense. The way it's set up, I honestly don't see any reason why they'd insist you use IE other than using some freaking exploit to get access to your operating system for "security reasons" or something equally silly.
While your browser may support the correct security, e-tax only recognises the security associated with your operating system to transmit information to the tax office.
This means you can still use the browser you are choosing to use. However, if the version of Internet Explorer that your operating system originally came with is less than 5.5, you will need to download an update to your operating system.
Please call our help desk if you are unclear about this requirement on 1300 1300 17, or follow the instructions below
There's the error message you get with Firefox on XP Pro SP2 (latest patches, latest everything la la etc). What's interesting is that the program you download has some sort of accomadations for the vision-impaired, yet apparently these people can't be bothered to write real security code. Thing is, my first thought was "oh, yet another group too lazy to write software; they're just using ActiveX instead." But they're not. The download is a 3.58MB
ACs are modded -6. I don't read you, I don't mod you, I don't see you. Don't like it? Don't be a coward.
After all, if they can't afford a real OS they probably don't pay tax either :)
(ducks and runs for cover.....)
--I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
Considering most people use Windows it makes sense to initially develop a program for Windows. It's a responsible use of tax money. How about the Linux community builds their own open source version? I'm sure it would easily be ported to OS X.
I mean, it would be more disturbing if they only had a version for Be OS, right?
"If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, A hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer
I sent a letter to the IRS, and to the White House, informing them I could not pay taxes because I knew some of the money would be used to kill muslims in the Middle East. As a representative of God on earth, I knew killing is wrong.
Instead, I offered to offset my taxes by traveling accross the USA and leaving bibles in every hotel room.
I don't think people should pay taxes. I think taxes are evil. What we need is an income cap. That would do more to save our country. Has anyone been to a movie theater? $10 for a ticket, $4 for popcorn, $4 for a soda. Now multiply that by a family of 4. And add in some rasionettes. All of a sudden, Brad Pitt does not look so charming, when I know the motherfucker is getting $10,000,000 and $74 of that is comming from my wallet. Does that mean if he got $1,000,000 I would have only paid $7.40? Maybe not, but maybe the guy selling me my ticket would make more than minimum wage, and maybe I would not need to watch a Fandango commercial.
What was this post about?
Oh, taxes. And how Microsoft sucks. Maybe we can combine the two hates, and appoint Bill Gates as chief of the IRS. I'd hate to say it, but Gates would have a better chance of collecting Taxes from me than Uncle Sam. Bill has a say in how I view porn (Damn you and your DRM WRM v9, I never thought I would pay for porn).
Oh, about not paying for taxes. The government can not force you to. They can throw you in jail, that is true, but it will cost government $30,000 per year to house you and feed you and pay for the guards and electricity. So if you don't pay taxes, and government sends you to jail, you win. Not only did you not pay taxes, but you forced them to spend $30,000 a year on you.
Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."
This is a new move for the US goverment. I think it is a plus that they say that they don't run in Linux. Normaly they don't know anything about it. Given enough complaints they will make it work with Linux.
I for one use Mac's mostly, typing this on a PC. However, I do realize two things:
1. Combined Mac and Linux combined have what? MAYBE 10% of the user base out there? Subtract student users who prolly don't pay taxes anyway and you end up where? 7%?
2. I assume this thing is publicly funded.
If my assumptions are correct, and you want to give the most bang for the buck.... then you're going to target Windows. Big freakin' deal!
Sure, maybe they should have just had a browser based app... maybe they had a reason (i.e. time to market, skills of those involved, etc.) that led them away from a web approach. I'd like to see their cost analysis before slamming them for spending taxpayer money on a solution that may make the most sense. (long time listener, first time caller... go easy on me man)
Mexican Goverment has many web tools that must be used by tax payers , sadly this tools require M$ IExplorer to be used. The funny part is that many of this tools are written in java, and they work in part in other browsers/architechtures ... but I guess they never took the time/effort to check them to work correctly but in ie.
"We all know Linux is great...it does infinite loops in 5 seconds." -- Linus
This system is great... but i do hav to use my flate mate computers to be able to use the software...
Hold on... did someone say its web based? Last years wasnt... i think they did have a web based one... But not even that is linux friendly? Fark!!! I'm singing!!!
Giving IE users a taste of their own medicine since 2005 - http://pods.-is-a-geek.net/
I for one, would hope the government *doesn't* do this. 99% of Linux users have a copy of Windows lying around, and a fair chunk of those users probably use Windows most of the time. Linux isn't a deskop OS, you can't expect organisations to write desktop software for it.
Wah wah wah... it won't run on my PS2 either, Im going to have a bitch and post on slashdot..
Seeing as its my taxes that would wind up paying for this, I sincerly hope they dont spend thousands of my taxes to satisfy all of 5 users that would actually use it. Grab the paper forms man, this program is provided as a convenience to the 99% of people that run a desktop OS.
I.O.U One Sig.
Today I come to you with a sincere request, that should appeal to the self-confessed geeks, and to the socially aware. The Australia Gov't hosts a service known as e-tax to submit your tax return through the Internet, this service has been widely heralded as a success. However, this does not apply to everyone; the educated minority of the Internet world often choose to use alternative operating systems, such as Mac OS or Linux, this software makes claim that you must use an emulator, should you choose to use these OS's. If you know anything about software emulation, you know that it is a difficult task, and one that is preferably avoided. My request is as follows: send an email similar to the one in the furthur text, at the address given, and phone up to register your disgust at this clear favour to global monopolies.
c ontent/33746.htm
c ontent/PA_emailenquiry.html
* Complaint Services: http://www.ato.gov.au/corporate/content.asp?doc=/
* Email the ATO: http://www.ato.gov.au/corporate/content.asp?doc=/
* Letter Base (the one I used):
I am writing to express my concern over the implementation of "e-tax" in a very specific environment. Your choice to only permit those using Microsoft Windows, or certain emulation software, has placed a disgusting bias over the current market monopolies.
Open Source Software, such as Linux, is attributed with the characteristic of being FREE. To exploit a cliche - free as in speech, as well as free as in beer. By restricting access to only those who can afford Microsoft software, you have placed strains on myself and many others who find themselves liberated of the pressures of proprietry software. I implore you to consider the needs of a wide spectrum of PC users, instead of just those who can afford disgustingly overpriced software, without the need to run _furthur_ software that would likely fail in order to emulate. One possible solution to this is to open the source code up for conversion, and security, by the general population. Either that, or allow a standard protocol for tax returns, so as the general population can code their own software for use with tax returns.
Sincerely Frustrated,
David McKenzie
http://www.freemm.org/
Please note: The contents of this email and any subsequent replies are subject to publishing on mulitple platforms. Please inform me if you do not wish for your replies to be published.
This is not actually a surprise to me. A lot of programs like this are made for windows, more than likely because of it's popularity(sad as it is, I know).
No one said that there will never be a linux or mac port but I wouldn't be betting on it in the near future either, although I don't know how linux is doing in Austrailia.
In the end it's all about popularity and until we can start converting friends and family over to the light side of the force(ie. linux) this is the sort of thing we will have to get used to (Or create our own ports).
* Email the ATO: http://www.ato.gov.au/corporate/content.asp?doc=/c ontent/PA_emailenquiry.html
* Letter Base (the one I used):
I am writing to express my concern over the implementation of "e-tax" in a very specific environment. Your choice to only permit those using Microsoft Windows, or certain emulation software, has placed a disgusting bias over the current market monopolies.
Open Source Software, such as Linux, is attributed with the characteristic of being FREE. To exploit a cliche - free as in speech, as well as free as in beer. By restricting access to only those who can afford Microsoft software, you have placed strains on myself and many others who find themselves liberated of the pressures of proprietry software. I implore you to consider the needs of a wide spectrum of PC users, instead of just those who can afford disgustingly overpriced software, without the need to run _furthur_ software that would likely fail in order to emulate. One possible solution to this is to open the source code up for conversion, and security, by the general population. Either that, or allow a standard protocol for tax returns, so as the general population can code their own software for use with tax returns.
Sincerely Frustrated,
David McKenzie
http://www.freemm.org/
Please note: The contents of this email and any subsequent replies are subject to publishing on mulitple platforms. Please inform me if you do not wish for your replies to be published.
The ATO refuse to consider "e-tax" as an authoritative source anyhow. It's just an easy way to submit returns.
Do the smart thing - keep records, see an accountant. Accountants support all operating systems, including PenAndPaper(tm) and ReceiptsInShoebox(r).
Classical Liberalism: All your base are belong to you.
How'd this story get onto the front page? This is not really news-for-nerds, or stuff-that-matters.
So, E-tax is windows-only. Big deal. The ATO is working with the lowest common denominator. Sadly for the zealots out there, that's not linux. And , as an Aussie citizen, this is *my* tax dollars at work. I'm not interested in them spending (say) $1 million to code up a working linux version and do support for it. I want my cash to go to more important things.
There are plenty of other ways to do your tax.
- Perhaps you could cough up $50 to use a tax agent (who'll likely find more deductions,anyway) and get that $50 back next year as a deduction.
- Or use wine , which has worked for me on the last three versions of e-tax. Hell, they did suggest it.
- Or, (gasp! the horror! ) spend an hour or so with a calculator and use the standard paper-based form.
When linux is 25% of the installed Australian PC user base, they might consider it. But you'll probably see a Mac version first. Personally, I'm glad that they've made the first step and actually made online returns possible, because it's a hell of a lot better than the old paper-chase.
You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
There is a lot of hype here.
Some piece of software doesn't work on Linux! Stop the presses! Call CNN! MOST IMPORTANT: Submit it to slashdot!
Seriously... mod me down if you like, but aren't Linux on desktop users already accustomed to not having access to all the software they want to use?
Le français vous intéresse?
The Brazilian IR has (official) electronic tax returns programs for Windows AND other systems - Linux, Mac, Solaris etc, though for this second group the program is in Java. But better than nothing. Check the link (Disclaimar: Brazilian Portuguese!!!): http://www.receita.fazenda.gov.br/PessoaFisica/IRP F/2005/PGDJAVA/progIRPF2005multiplataforma.htm
It's strange that this application is written specifically for windows for the general public. For businesses who submit a quarterly or yearly BAS electronically, there's a Java application available for download. They set you up with keys and from then you're submitting your business income online.
However, it is a tricky program to setup, not for the weak hearted. I can't imagine the average business owner setting it up and getting it working by themselves.
Task Mangler
While I sympathise with this fellows' plight, I think that he could have gone a little bit further to rewrite the letter in a 'diplomatic' language.
...who can afford disgustingly overpriced software... " do nothing for trying to get your message across. Additionally using FULL CAPS (even for one word) and other e-emphasis methods are not suggested. You simply come across as a screaming annoyance.
Using phrases like "disgusting bias" and "
All that said, I hope he has success with his attempts. For myself, I'll resort to still using my accountant.
No one is forcing you to use anything. OSS is about freedom of choice and if you happen to use Linux or OSX, you have a choice to use emulation software. Or choose to use Windows, but stop complaining. If you really think they must have a better system, I challenge you to start a company without tax payer money and write a better piece of software and sell it to the government.
The requirements: http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.asp?doc= /content/32613.htm&page=3&H3
Why in the world do Governments want to be dependent on a foreign company's closed-source proprietary software is beyond me.
I understand the need to get the most common platform but supercomplex software projects like Firefox can manage Mac/Linux/Windows (through QT???) - why can't a government?
It will save them headaches in the long-run, if the code is written to be portable and platform independent.
I get into the same mood when I see a website warning me it's only configured for IE or Active X. What is that BS?
I've used the e-tax for 2 years in a row. then I got a mac and dumped my windows box. I'm not complaining, the software is just a virtual form that does some very easy math for you.
As for protesting windows only, are you going to protest it isn't available for the Acorn? How about PalmPC? They wrote software to make sending tax in easier. They wrote it for the biggest group of users. How is that anything but intelligent government spending.
Yes, it would be nice if they used Qt and made it multi-platform (Qt GPL or non-GPL on mac, linux and windows now), but even if the code doesn't have to be written more than once, there is still additional effort in packaging and support. I mean they let you get the software for free as in beer. Next you will want them to buy you a PC too otherwise they disadvantag those who do not own a computer.
Either do in on the forms and mail them in, get a tax person to do it for you, or run WINE/VirtualPC. Save your indignation for real issues like <insert real issue here>.
Now you know what Apple's 1984 commercial was really about.
Because Big Brother cares about standards just as much as your favorite software company.
Because Big Brother doesn't know the Internet is comprised of standardized protocols and methods.
Because Big Brother is a dump for losers who can't get a job elsewhere where quality matters.
It would be a piece of cake developing a Java version of a tax application. The reason governments don't is that they since long are filials to Microsoft Corp. Although every government have rules concerning monopolies and want diversity, this doesn't apply to the government itself.
And although the government is screaming about security in personal computing, they still use Windows and Internet Explorer, and expect everybody else to do so too. Their standpoint is that Microsoft should better themselves, not to use the already many existing alternatives, which are all better in most regards.
This is an oxymoron, and it will not change. Because this is Big Brother, and Big Brother is big and slow. Get used to it, and try to get back at the government in other ways. I know I always do.
If I purchase some emulation software for platform xxx then I'm guessing this would be tax deductable?
Good to see the tax office is doing a good job of creating deductions for us.
The system works pretty well.
Critical information is
Operating system
Windows 98, 2000, Me or XP or Apple Macintosh with suitable Windows Emulator software installed.
Browser
Any version of Internet Explorer 6 or any version of Netscape 7. If you are using an earlier version browser, it must have the relevant 'patches' or high encryption pack capable of supporting 128bit SSL.
Note. e-tax will check your browser to ensure it meets the minimum requirements. More information will be provided online if you need to upgrade your browser.The bikini - security through obscurity since 1943
Geez give them a break, doing it online is only a new thing and your all up in arms cos they haven't ported it to Mac or Linux yet. Give them a break, not like you all don't have a copy of Windows around somewhere anyway.
Instead of tyring to make it a religious/philosophical issue, try writing an email simply requesting ports to other platforms like Linux and MacOS.
Finally a /. article about ham radio. I'm in nerd heaven today!
The government's goal is not to convert people to Linux/Mac/OSS, or even to support that minority. Their goal is to cut down on massive amounts of paperwork and make it easier for most people to pay their taxes. The quickest and cheapest way to do that is by releasing a Windows program to pay taxes, duh. Someone even suggested taking this matter to the courts, comparing it to handicapped/women's rights.
"Your honor, I don't want to use Windows because it sucks and MS is evil, and I don't want to use the traditional paper system because I'm an elitist computer-literate citizen. Therefore, the government should be required to release a Mac/Linux version of the tax software." The response would be: Tough luck, use paper. You're lucky to have a computerized system to begin with.
Here are some things to remember:
-William Brendel
Is anyone surprised about this? Frankly, the most surprising thing about this to me is the fact that they acknowledge that other platforms exist that people might want to use instead. It's not like there aren't thousands of applications that ignore non-windows users and a similarly (unnecessarily) large number of websites that limit themselves to only being viewed on IE (often times also being incompatible with IE for mac even).
They make it awkward to use because they don't really want it.
I'm sure a PDF form emailed back to them in XML would be a universally usable, platform agnostic, way for them to receive the information.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
This is blatant descrimination against minorities on the part of the Australian goverment. Us OS/360 users want to file our taxes online too! We will not stop until we achieve the equality we so sorely deserve!
I think its easy to lose sight of the point of this. Sure you can say that 90%+ of the people wanting to do their taxes online will be using Windows, but that makes no difference.
The point is that the Tax Office (ATO) used taxpayers money to develop (or buy) this software. If I'm paying them money I expect to be able to use this software on practically any system. It is NOT hard to create a system like this that is multi platform (ie Java or browser based).
Secondly if taxpayers foot the bill for ANY software the government produces/buys then it should be open source. It is a public resource and hence I want to see what my money is paying for, not just use some windows binary.
I really was freaked out when it wanted IE (more specifically suggested anything other than IE was insecure) to be able to download the e-tax software. I mean I'm about to plug *MY* details into a website using the single largest spyware vector for Win32 PC presently. Even though its not possible to spoof a .gov.au site (to the best of my knowledge) I was still irritated by their broken reasoning.
M
Do the following really mean anything? SCSA MCP CCSA CCNA
--I'm not actually after an answer!
However, the government there is probably making a sound economic decision to only support windows. What's the market share of Windows-based systems for the desktop in Australia these days? 95%? Ok, say even as low as 90%...
That other 10% is made up of at least several different flavours of Linux and Mac OS's - each of which would need testing/revisions.
They would also need equipment and support people to support each OS.
So - it would cost you, the tax payer, a lot of money to do your tax return on your Mac, for little comparitive return because of the small number of people that would use the software in comparision. You still have the option of using the paper forms, or having someone do your taxes for you, or (god forbid), finding someone who will let you use their Windows PC.
Go ahead and protest... if you're successful, great. But are the extra tax costs worth the convenience of using your Mac?
MadCow
I used to have a sig, but I set it free and it never came back.
is you all have a problem with software that runs on the os of the majority of desktop users? I can understand being mad if it's forcably denying someone non-windows when it works on non-windows, but it doesn't. They picked a piece of software that fits their needs(and probably for a fairly cheap price overall), and you're upset that the makers didn't make a copy for niche operating systems? Oh well, this really leaves you with 3 options: 1) Bitch and moan in the hope that they'll inconvinence the vast majority of the people by forcing a switch to new software, after people have gotten used to this software 2) Create your own open source copy, since isn't that what the whole "movement" is good at, taking other peoples ideas and remaking them? or 3) Just filing your fucking forms in paper.
I want you to assume that all spelling and grammar errors are intentional. Thank You.
I've submitted my last two tax returns using e-tax, and havn't had a problem with booting into windows.
Billions of dollars will change hands based on the data entered into e-tax. Extremely strict testing is needed, and supporting multiple platforms would make this all the more difficult.
Given that
a) Non-windows platforms make up only a few percent of the market; and
b) Most non-windows platforms can successfully emulate windows well enough to run e-tax (Although I wouldn't risk the potential for errors)
c) You are still able to use the standard paper based submission, or an accountant (And your probably much better off using an accountant).
I can understand the decision to only support windows.
During the week my company IS department sent out a customer service survey form. They said it would only work in IE, but I gave it a go anyway with Galeon on RH 7.2 and it worked fine.
Our local IS guy admitted to me that he tried it in Firefox, struck a strange problem, and then just put IE only in the email.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
You big whiny piece of shit. Would you go buy a diesel if there were no stations selling diesel fuel? Probably, because you like being a victim. Go fuck yourself, you faggot monkey zealot piece of shit, and take those fucking losers torvalds and cox with you. Fucking dumbass...
java...
As an Australian taxpayer, I wonder why the ATO didn't get their software written in some platform neutral medium, like Java.
Java apps will run on Linux, Macs, Sun boxes and Windows - and on plenty of other OSs too.
I am anarch of all I survey.
Here in Sweden, the govt is pushing the so called "e-legitimation" which translates to "e-id" in english. This system was also initially windows only. IIRC, it took them two years to make it working on a mac. I don't know whether it works for Linux today.
Anyway, these things are not a matter of technology or economy. It is really a political question, and, IMHO, should be dealt with as such.
In these days, here in the EU, the most shameful thing a government can do (apart from doing bad in human rights issues of course) is to boost monopolies or otherwise favorizing any vendor or industry. The EU has a history of nitpicking the swedish alcohol and drug monopolies. They have essentially made smuggling of alcohol legal, all in the name of something called "free trade".
This wiewpoint seemingly does not affect the IT arena. At least it seems to be perfectly OK to favorize monopolies abroad by setting up government backed system that only work with windows, a system sold by an, in the U.S. at least, convicted monopolist.
What the government is doing is saving development money and letting the people pay by having to buy windows.
Is this free trade? No! it is really a new tax, but the tax money goes directly to Redmond.
That letter is not likely to be taken very seriously. The grammar is horribly mangled, the spelling is atrocious - proprietry? furthur? - and the word "disgusting" is over-used.
These things matter, like it or not.
Isn't "furthur" spelt "further"? Not very professional looking if you're writing to a government department. Oh sure, it's a cavil, as the sentiments are on the money (excuse the pun) - but it's hardly a platform to attack the Vole on. I would have thought it would be more effective to criticise (australian spelling) the ATOs committment to the Vole as it is well known that it is the most insecure operating system. Do they, for instance, recommend Firefox or Java? Hmmmmm. Thumbs down to the ATO for this. Thumbs up for a more persuasive protest letter!
you guys are outraged because they put out something that only works on windows? a lot of software companies put out software that is windows only. they are satisifed to hit the majority in one swoop. you can still file taxes using traditional forms. democracy doesn't mean that every single person gets their way. i understand your argument of "to do it right, they could have easily....". do you guys seriously expect the govt to always do things right? how about ever? i think there are much larger issues to check the govt on...
I'm on board i Posted a letter to the ATO last year with the same grevance.
:)
ATO should post out a linux live cd with tax software on it.
it would prevent any chance of uneducated people giving all their personal details to a keylogger in their crappy windows honey pot
This year the French government encouraged people to fill their tax returns (and also pay their income tax) on internet. People who did both would get a 20 EUR discount on the tax. This is not much, but it made a lot of taxpayers choose it.
A lot more than expected by people who managed the server, which was almost always saturated, and finally the delay for doing this was extended by one month.
It is not the first year it is possible fill the tax return online, but the first year I did it. As I understand it, in previous years you had to run a Windows program to generate a security form.
Now everything runs in java. Not everything is perfect because you have to save a new library inside the java bin directory, but at least I could do everything on my Linux PC with Firefox without having to switch to root (because I did a local install of java as a user and not as root).
McCartney fans pay bus tickets. [...] Lennon fans too, with discretion.
You guys are so quick to get angry and send out emails saying how bad it is that Linux and Mac cannot use this system. If someone really wants to use this then I'm sure they can get up and walk to a public library where the machines are all Windows and run this e-tax thing, or even do it from work where most businesses would be running Windows anyway.
the protest email link should just be a link to a pdf of the tax form. print, fill out, and mail. god forbid. "you guys are complaining about what?" said the aboriginies.
AFAIK ELSTER is compulsory for businesses, as a Windows-only service (well, AFAIK some Linux programs now support it, but in contrast to the main government thing, they're not free). This issue went as far as allowing affected people to turn in their stuff in paper form again, since they couldn't be bothered to use exPAINsive and insecure windows to do that.
People protesting against this new Windows-only "offer" might be wise to include this fact of a previous German fiasco in their protest statement, as this indicates sloppy research of Australia's government (hah, as if they'd want to research and properly plan their projects...).
it has always been this way. A reason to buy a PC or PC emulator and claim the cost on your tax.
There was an unknown error in the submission.
they were Windows only for several of years, claiming it were too costly to develop versions for Mac and Linux. After much protest, they promised last year that they'd work on Mac and Linux too, to be used in 2006 (for taxes over 2005). As development of the Mac version turned out to be a piece of cake, the Dutch IRS released it for the tax season of 2005. It was fairly easy to use. My 75 year old dad could run it on his Mac easily. The only caveats were about re-using the app (he helps other people with their tax forms).
Bert
System Requirements
I've sucessfully used Firefox on Linux and Safari on OS X.
The first system (about 2000 or so) required you to download a windows-only binary, but now it's all browser based and very easy to use too.
I would very much like to suggest that those who want to participate in the protest rewrite the mail to a more mellow non biased tone - remember what you want is not blod or infuriation but a change of heart. Coming across as a *MS basher is not the way to go about it. If you want your message to come across you need to explain about the greatness of open standards - how for example the norwegian government has banned the use of closed proprietary standards from 2006 if I remember correctly and make the people understand that if they make a W3C compliant web interface future development cost are put onto the browser software developers who must make sure they follow the guidelines set out by W3C. Also point out that by creating an interface following W3C guidelines and not being operating system or browser specific they'll create a competetive innovative environment where free market forces can thrive. Politicians love that stuff.
Then send your friendly toned message to your legislators - furthermore by wording your protests individually you will force them to read each mail instead of simply sorting them and making a computerized count... if they even bother to go that far.
Makes a damn good point.
1. I suppose there are several GPL solutions to this but not an expert. QT was a suggestion and an example - not the only alternative.
2. The Australian government can negotiate licensing with Trolltech. I can't imagine it being expensive. No need for being GPLed.
"Is it really worth wasting tax money to cater to the small percentage of people that this slightly inconveniences?"
3. Is it really worth promoting vendor lock-in with ANOTHER Windows-only solution when the alternative would be almost as painless if planned in from the start?
Steve Ballmer said it with: "Developers! Developers! Developers!"
I'll add that the thing that can kill alternatives like Linux is "APATHY! APATHY! APATHY!"
Or are you just whining for the sake of it. Personally msot linux users are either earning enough money that they should be paying someone else to their tax or are exempt because they have only collected the dole for the last year. Mac users are similar except theya re too clueless to use it or they shoudl be paying someone else to do it if they can't run it in VPC. that leaves the 90+% of the population using windows as being the target market. Good use of the taxpayer dollars I think.
"Open Source Software, such as Linux, is attributed with the characteristic of being FREE. To exploit a cliche - free as in speech, as well as free as in beer. "
Let's not start all that again. It looks like MS don't need to beat F/OSS, they just have to wait till the factions destroy each other over the meaning of the word 'free'.
"By restricting access to only those who can afford Microsoft software,"
Don't most PCs come with Windows pre-installed? PCs have gone down in price, but I still wouldn't call them cheap, either.
If you can afford a PC, you can afford Windows.
" you have placed strains on myself and many others who find themselves liberated of the pressures of proprietry software."
Get over yourself. Linux is not a religious cause or a higher plane of existence, it's just a UNIX knock-off with delusions of grandeur and lots of software copied from Windows equivalents. So much for Free Software innovation...
" I implore you to consider the needs of a wide spectrum of PC users, instead of just those who can afford disgustingly overpriced software,"
Wide spectrum of about 10% of computer users? I know this is trying to get a point across, but don't think the recipient of this will not check the facts. Linux and Mac users are a minority. Sad, but true.
"without the need to run _furthur_ software that would likely fail in order to emulate."
Spell checkers. There are enough open source ones, unless you did use one and the bazaar model of development and testing missed the correct spelling of 'further'.
" One possible solution to this is to open the source code up for conversion, and security, by the general population."
Linux and Mac users are not 'general population', asserting something repeatedly does not make it fact.
The general population just want to file a tax return, as far as this software is concerned.
" Either that, or allow a standard protocol for tax returns, so as the general population can code their own software for use with tax returns."
Again, implication of a majority where none exists. You're still in the minority, get over it!
Part of this is a common misconception among the Linux crowd. The general population are not programmers. They don't want or care about source code, they couldn't give a monkey's about software being 'Free' as long as it works and it's easy to install and use.
By the way - usually the Linux mob insist on open standards and standards compliance...
http://validator.w3.org/
Your site is not valid. HTH.
and surprise, surprise I got no response from them at all. I was even civil in the email.
Now it makes me wonder, why not create the e-tax software using cross-platform technologies such as GTK (or something), and just re-compile for linux/mac/whatever. This would've been a much better idea than locking themselves into the win32 api in the first place.
Tax filing needs a document format standard based on XML, not government developed software. The government should establish what that standard is, specifying all the fields needed. They should then have their own in-house validation software that checks submissions for compliance and errors. But there is no need for the government to create the actual software users might run to create those filing documents. At least here in the USA, there are lots of private tax preparation programs available on the market. Just publish the standard form and let the market ... and the FOSS community ... build the software.
The biggest issue I currently see in the USA is that to file taxes electronically, one has to pay a corporation to do so. What we need is direct electronic tax filing. I still file my taxes on paper as a protest against the government forcing people to pay a few dollars and give away private information to some corporation. I'd rather pay the US Postal Service the 37 cents and keep the information private.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
If it's anything like what happened with the official UK lottery site (which banned almost all non-IE *and* non-Windows users from its online games until earlier this year), it'll take about 3 years before the Aussies bother to do another site redesign cycle and suddenly realise what a snafu they originally made.
We have had a web-based tax return system running for years. Actually it is used not only for anual tax returns, but also for filing VAT statements, checking out your status as a tax-paying citizen (or company), etc. It works really well most of the time. It was done right from the beginning in Java, so it is fully compatible with Windows, Linux, and Mac.
Making something like this WIndows-only is actually, er, stupid. The alternative is usable, proven, and in the long run less expensive. Perhaps the dialogue in the Aussie tax department would have been something like:
- Er, we need to put this on the web. What about using java so everybody can use it?
- Java is BAD. MS rules. Nevermind freedom of choice, Bill deserves his money!! Screw the tax payer!!! YEAH BABY!!!! (evil laugh).
The Argentinian AFIP (IRS equivanent) also force use of IE in their web site.
I see what you are saying, but it does not have to be Windows-only. It could be a web-based system written to conform to W3C standards, and it would work with any OS that has a conforming browser.
I don't think Australia is doing this with the purpose of "supporting global monopolies", but that is indeed a result of decisions like this. It is perfectly valid to petition the government to make things like this open and cross-platform.
e-tax has been around since 2000, and from memory has been windows/ie only since the first release
Instead of asking the government for the source code of the app, why not ask that they publish the protocol used to talk to their servers ?
..
That way, every individual and/or company would be able to write a competing e-tax program for whatever platform.
I mean, the paper forms are "open" too right ? Everybody can read them and fill them out, it's not like they're written in Maori and only Maori tax-advisers can fill out your tax-form for you
Mike.
Living is a horizontal fall
As someone who is currently working for the ATO I can say tough luck if you are an alternative OS user. Developing software in government or corporate environment is an incredibly expensive process and spending the extra money on supporting the very small percentage of users who don't use Window just cannot be justified by the people who approve the budgets. Obviously you have no idea of the cost involved in developing this sort of software. When I got my first serious development job I was literally shocked by the numbers that would appear on estimation spreadsheets to make what seemed relatively simple changes to the bank's software that I was working on. To support an extra web browser in a software project like this cost a fortune due to the development, reviewing and testing. Quite often the testing phase for projects like this can cost as much and even sometimes more than the actual development. Introducing testing for 2 extra platforms can blow the project costs out incredibly to only support a relatively small increase in user base. It is just never going to get approved by the bean counters, especially when the don't know anyone who doesn't at least have access to Windows.
I have used e-Tax for a few years now and alos know a few people who are developing web services for the ATO and have the following comments:
1. e-Tax is not the only application available for electronic lodgment. This just happens to be the one the ATO give away for free.
2. The ATO have been developing a huge web services interface for quite a few years now. The idea is to provide a standards compliant interface that anyone can write an application against to help people lodge their tax return.
3. Web serives interfaces was first implemented for the GST quaterly statments but are supposed to be rolled down to personal taxes before too long.
They should've put more effort to ensure something more universal, because this is important. And the fact that something like 90% of people uses Windows should not define a standard for this kind of things.
I'm glad here in France you can do your e-tax filing from a Linux box (I did without problem), because the people in charge of this made the effort to ensure it would work on most OSes, they used Java and that works pretty well, and that's to be expected from a government.
It would not have cost more to support Mac and Linux as well; it would have required some "thinking" however. Why? They could have used REALbasic or Java to create the program, which would have made it cross platform without needing to maintain a separate code base.
It's not just windows-only, it's painful to use and has many stupid limitations (eg the size of the window is locked to something stupidly small, ensuring scrollbars and massive wasteage of screen real-estate). The only reason why it's been so successful is that it's free-as-in-beer.
The author points to a site run by a group called the Free Media Militia. Red flag for nutcases that can't be pleased is set off. Try writing a short email that doesn't contain a lot of jargon, cliche's that are only cliches known to a specific community, and fancied up hyperbolic English ("liberated of the pressures of proprietry software", "implore you", "disgustingly overpriced", "open the source code up for conversion, and security", "can code their own software". Write a simple email that gets right to the point and doesn't get all excited about the fact that you (a small minority of the population) can't send your taxes in electronically. Make the point, but without sounding like you're going to be sentanced to prison for 22-years for not knowing you're a drug mule.
Microsoft VBScript runtime error '800a0005'
/common/includes/GlobalFunctions.asp, line 558
Invalid procedure call or argument: 'mid'
I'm pretty sure most people using alternative OSes have access to a windows box at work/uni/friends house. Why make the government waste more money then they already do?
You want me to lug all my tax info to a friends place or to work!? Assuming I can find a way to sensibly move that much paper, and I can get the PC time to enter it all, what am I supposed to do if I forget something? Go back and forth a few times?
It is a miracle that the ATO can release this software once a year to cope with regulation changes.
As a consultant working with them recently I am continually amazed at how long it takes to get things done. Although it is mostly not their own fault. They did outsource their support functions to EDS - a big mistake.
Unfortunately, all your points are invalid because the UK equivalent tax site is and always has been cross-platform...
The Australian e-tax is a Windows application - it is not a website.
I was actually in a meeting with the ATO's e-tax IT project manager a couple of months ago. He had been invited to a meeting held by various state government agencies in my state (one of which I work for) discussing problems with Internet-access PC's that we provide to the public.
:-).
The main gist of the meeting regarded what happens when people using these public PC's enter private details (eg. credit card numbers), then when the next member of the public comes along they have access to their details.
During the meeting it became apparent that public access PC's run by some other agencies allowed members of the public to download and install software (including e-tax) onto them (!!!). Yes, some people in Australia who can't afford a home PC use a public-access Windows machine to do their tax returns !!! And when they finish, their tax details remain on the PC for anyone else to see, unless they know how to delete them !!! And yes, some agencies in my state are stupid enough to provide public-access Windows PC's where people can come along and install anything on them !!!
But I digress. I approached the ATO manager during the break. One of the things I asked him was along the lines of this discussion - what are non-Windows users supposed to do if they want to do their tax returns online ? He mentioned emulators (yeah, great).
I suggested an idea to him that I had had during the meeting - that the ATO provide a web-based version of e-tax.
As far as the subject of that meeting was concerned, the main problem with e-tax was persistence of data. If a member of the public uses a public-access machine, then the details they enter are likely to remain on the PC and be viewable by subsequent users of that PC. To respond to this, the ATO provides public-access machines in some of its branches, with a version of e-tax that deletes all details when the user logs out of the application. However, this presents a problem - Australian tax returns are fairly complex, and quite often people are unable to enter all of their details in one e-tax session (they might not have enough time, or they realise half-way through that they are missing an important bit of information, or whatever). So, they shut down the app, lose all the information they have entered, and have to start from scratch when they come back. The manager had admitted this shortcoming during the meeting.
Anyway, I suggested to the manager that the ATO create a web-based e-tax system - one that lets people create a tax-preparation account, and save their preparation details in the system, ie. on the ATO's web server, as they go until their return is complete, at which point they can submit the final return. That way no personal info need be stored on local PC's; the ATO wouldn't have to worry about distributing new versions of the e-tax client each year when tax rules change; and best of all, Mac and Linux users could use it.
The manager rubbed his chin and said that he thought the idea was "interesting", but judging from his body language I don't think its going to arrive any time soon.
BTW, the public-access PC's that I look after run a locked-down version of Linux, with the Firefox browser as the only accessible app, which means I don't have to worry about having to support e-tax on them
not only has e-tax been around for many years
but it has also been windows only for as long
and OHMYGOSH incompatible with AOL
does this mean that AOL users should demand a version of a program made specifically for them despite the ATO having very good reasons not to ?
The dutch system is OS agnostic too. I had no problems filling out my tax form on Linux. The likely problem in Australia is that they hired a bunch of Microsoft fanboys into their IT department.
Anyone who generalizes about slashdotters is a typical slashdotter.
Here are some things to remember:
My point being, they could/should have developed this as cross platform from the beginning. How hard is it to use open standards to create a cross platform web app? And for the last point, apparently it's been 4 years, how much time does it take to fix this sort of thing?
If Mr. Edison had thought smarter he wouldn't sweat as much. --Nikola Tesla
Recently, while looking thru the US Savings Bonds web site, I came across this link. A WinXX only Savings Bond Wizard.
http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/sav/sbwizins.htm
Speaketh the page further: "The Wizard is a Windows® application. If you don't have Windows, or if you prefer not to download & install a program, try our online Savings Bond Calculator."
http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/sav/savcalc.htm
Looks like the US Govt appreciates -some level- of tech independance, but eliminates functionality for non WinXX users.
Choice of platform should not dictate level of support. Are Non-WinXX users second class citizens?
Standards have value when we leverage them. They add confusion when they are not used despite the value that would otherwise be realized.
Are there any members of the US Senate or House of Representatives that can imagine how much $$$ we'd save if we promoted and leveraged communication standards?
Lets avoid making our documentation legacy in the National Archives (IIRC - at Foggy Bottom Train stop in Wash DC) into a tower (or cave) of Babel!
Or... is that the interpretation of "Foggy Bottom" - the location of the US National archives?
Have a great day! John the JWPenguin
Not everyone has a computer (only 50%-75% do, say); but those that don't have other means to file their taxes.
Not everyone with a computer has windows (but 99% do); those that don't have other means to file their taxes.
While I still don't approve of this practice, and I believe that cross browser portability isn't *that* hard to achieve, especially for an important product like this, they are playing the numbers, and playing them reasonably..
It's the same deal with the online application for Canadian passports; I got a fair bit of the way through it with Opera, before I had to start over with IE. (And sure enough, at the start, there was an indication of IE required.)
Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
have you taxpayer dollars go to develop software for a dozen other platforms than get a windows emulator?
People who think they know everything really piss off those of us that actually do.
In Holland this is already no longer true for firms, even one person firms. Electronic submittal is mandatory.
It's web + pdf based though so it's mostly OS agnostic.
Anyone who generalizes about slashdotters is a typical slashdotter.
The Australian e-tax is a Windows application - it is not a website.
In Holland it used to be a windows/dos application too. They fixed it and it is now a web application.
Anyone who generalizes about slashdotters is a typical slashdotter.
I have also had a run in with the ATO recently. It appears that the ATO cannot send emails to people where their email address is in lower case. When staff enter email addresses of tax payers into their systems they are automatically converted to upper case. Really strange things is that they ATO requests that emails sent to them are in LOWER CASE.
There is nothing more pathetic than OS dependent web based software. Seriously.
Kiteboarding Gear Mention slashdot and get 10% off!
I don't understand how the UKs tax site effects the parents post.
Also, I am pretty sure that this isn't a new thing. I remember e-tax being windows only for quite some time now. I am sure that the next time they decide to spend money developing something, it will probably be multi-platorm.
Japanese e-Tax http://www.e-tax.nta.go.jp/ which has been around for some time is also Windows only.
A linux freak creates an email to cry becuase they wont port their software to work over to Linux
Bwahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh funniest thing ive read all year
Nobody gives a fuck about Linux so stop fucking crying and move out your parents basement
Web sites, particularly government web sites, should be written to conform to open web standards, not to the idiosyncracies of particular any particular browser.
For web sites in general, it's a lesser sin to support IE only. For a government to demand that their citizens use and pay for Microsoft products is Evil(tm).
I tried installing the so-called Common-Sign-In-Interface, abbreviated CSI, also by the Australian Taxation Office. The most recent version of which.
For some reason, it required Internet Explorer and Java 1.4, which is outdated. Java 1.5 will not work.
Now, the picky bit is that it detects a version of IE that it says it cannot work with, so it starts installing IE. The setup program of which quits immediately, because my version is newer than the one it's trying to install. The CSI setup detects that an error occurred during the IE installation and quits.
No work-arounds are possible. That was about three months ago. I've got a tax-advisor now. It's easier, and, over time, even cheaper.
Alternatives exist, kids.
For eager /. readers you have probably read the news about the Norwegian Minister of modernisation and this: http://www.andwest.com/blojsom/blog/tatle/agenda/2 005/06/27/Norwegian_Minister_Proprietary_Standards _No_Longer_Acceptable_in_Communication_with_Govern ment.html
Ofcource any public system should be open standards based.
Actually we just sell fosters to the rest of the world, nobody here drinks it. We drink good beer.
The problem is that this is a *government* requiring the use of software from a convicted monopolist to in order to interface with said government online, and that's fundamentally different from simply not being able to run the latest and greatest game binary.
So wouldn't it make sense to simply mail them a big old wad of Monopoly money and be done with it?
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Australia has a very "robust" tradition of political debate.
= /content/32613.htm&page=14&H14
... I forgot, we signed a "free" trade agreement didn't we?
Here is a copy of an email I just sent to my local member:
Dear Dropkick
I writing to protest the ATO's insistence that I *must*, positively
*must* use Microsoft Windows to file my return electronically.
See http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.asp?doc
where it says:
"Can I use a Linux operating system or an Apple Macintosh computer for e-tax?
e-tax is not compatible with Linux or Apple Macintosh computers.
However, if you have suitable Windows Emulator software installed, you
may be able to use e-tax."
This is completely unacceptable. The ATO is mandating the purchase
of a particular product over and above, and in preference to other
similar, competing products.
For completely unnecessary and false reasons.
The Web is *standards* based. There is absolutely no reason for a
website to give a flying one about the clients *browser* (let alone
the operating system or computer hardware involved)
Furthermore, as an Australian taxpayer (who has used the Tax Office's
site in the past), I am outraged because this is a *new* policy.
In the past, the ATO's site *was* standards-based and didn't care what
browser I was using.
And quite frankly the ATO is being cynical and disengenous
"Windows Emulator" WTF???? Even if I use an emulator I still have
to buy the friggin Windows licence don't I? (plus the cost of the
emulator itself)
And while I'm on this rant - just what the hell is wrong with IE or
Netscape on Mac anyway? I have a Mac, and it has IE (and Netscape),
why can't I use it? I also have Linux machines with Netscape. What
on earth is wrong with that?
Oh wait
And I bet it has a secret codicil - the "Bill G" clause: "all your
citizens belong us"
FTA? More like a "freedom for selected US corporates to rape, pillage
and enslave". The ATO - your agency - has just decided to become a
"Microsoft partner" regardless of the best interests, or rather the
disinterest (dictionary word: look it up so you can fully understand
its meaning) of the Australian national interest.
Quite frankly I don't think any member of this government
would know what the national interest was if it fell from the sky and
crushed you under its weight.
I bet you bunch of carpetbaggers think National Interest is a horse
running in the third at Caulfield this Saturday.
Regards
Far more articulate, but far more enraged communication follows (but I
guess you get the point)
If you're such a SUPERIOR person, better than everyone else, a real member of the "educated minority", then learn how to use WINE instead of bitching about how hard it really is to use it.
A lot of people here posted directions on how to do that. I bet you and all your PuNK art can manage to learn something new.
Guess its not a 'true' webapplication then..
Id protest too "hey morons, get it right next year". ( anonymously of course, you dont want to piss off the tax man )
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Note: If you use Windows 95 and Mac OS 8-9, you can continue to use version 2.4. No changes have been made to version 2.4.
Noticed something that is really important. In fact, we need to stop acting like we're Gandhi, just because we use Linux.
It's just a choice, people. It does not make us "freedom fighters" or any other stuff.
Then let's start working to develop even more Apathy. Because the only group I find more annoying than OS X users are Linux people who are pissed off when somebody choses to not support their platform.
Unless I'm mistaken, nobody cares. You're posting about 'Anti-slash' on /. That'll work. Not to mention, this is so severly off-topic (which I think is completely against the concept of /. articles anyway), that you have now created an aura of off-topicness. Now just go 'anti-slash' before we decide to wage war with our 'anti-anti-slash.'
Honesty may be the best policy, but by process of elimination, dishonesty is the second best policy.
This is actually an excellent point. Other posters have suggested that the Australian government might have shied away from using an internet application due to security concerns (regardless of whether those concerns are justified). Lugging your tax information to a friend's place or to work would seem to put your confidential tax information at a higher security risk.
This reminds me of the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA) that we have here in the US. Because my physician can no longer store some information digitally, I am asked for this same information every time I visit the doctor. Not only does this slow down the process (there are lines where there did not used to be lines), but it actually puts my information at greater risk!
Ben Hocking
Need a professional organizer?
There's three and a half months left. Most people probably still haven't got their group certificates yet...
Sadly, with the way you worded your e-mail, there are very few chances that anyone will listen.
Demanding things from someone to counter their "disgusting" behaviour never works. Never. On the other hand, (and as an example) asking why such a questionnable technical choice was made, and offering your technical enlightenments can open more doors than you think.
Stop grunting - grow up
So what are you anti-anti-slash guys going to do?
Advocate the usage of dupes as a valid means of distributing information?
Applaud the lack of editing the... editors.. do?
Re-establish slashdot as THE website that doesn't conform to html standards?
I work on tax software, marketed mainly towards mid to large size accounting firm, for U.S.A. taxes. I can tell you many conditions exist for us that would prevent the software from being cross-platform, open source, or completely web-based . These conditions may hold for the Australian e-tax, although I can't be sure since I checked the Australian site for info on their software and couldn't find pertinent info.
First, cross-platform would be difficult for us to do. Our software originated in the 80's and even today, running on Win XP Pro systems, still contains much of the legacy code. This was code that existed before Linux or many of the alternative OS's existed.
Sure, starting from scratch would make it easier - but still difficult. You would need frameworks that work reliably across all operating systems and programmers skilled in cross-platform development. Also, you would need to test your software across different operating systems with different configurations. This is something our company can just handle now and we only support Win NT (4 I believe) through Win XP.
This testing is also non-trivial. Much of it is tedious, yet difficult to script, and much of it requires accounting knowledge. Also other weird things pop up. For example, I am unaware of the specifics of how drivers work on other systems, but in Windows, driver writers have to explicitly request access to the floating point unit. Before using it, they have to save the state, and when done, they have to restore it. Some (even big manufacturers) don't do this correctly, and we have to include custom code to handle this. If you don't, guess what? Printing causes subsequent floating point operations to be different than expected (things like rounding modes, various flags, and other such stuff get trashed).
Tax software requires a great deal of support. This often requires an accountant skilled in the OS the software is running on. There just aren't many accountants skilled with the alternative OS's . Although training can fix this, accountants in our company already have more than a full plate.
Relying on the open source community is not reliable enough in this particular instance. We sometimes only get tax forms and their instructions a couple days before the public. Sometimes (often), this is only a day or two before shipping. The software HAS to be done right then. Anyone doing their taxes needs the software before taxes are due. Accountants typically need it much before taxes are due, since they will have many clients to do taxes for.
Additionally, weird cases in tax law require accountants to (hopefully) interpret them correctly. Despite the help of accountants, weird bugs can remain hidden for years, until they bite somebody in the ass and cause a hideously (although not always obvious) wrong result. So not only do you need programmers, but you need accountants to write it. Also, I believe (perhaps wrongly), that it would possible for a programmer to circumvent tax law, by coding something ostensibly benign for some little understood edge case in the tax law.
Depending on how much of the tax law the software handles, the calculation can be very slow-not good for most web-based software. Our software running on a dedicated 3Ghz+ machine can quite often take over 30 seconds for a simple return. Complicated returns (thankfully, usually the type only accountants would do) can vary from several minutes to several hours. This is not just us-we are in line with our competitor's time +- a few percent. Regardless of the actual time, it's still possible to do web-based, but possible long times would complicate it. I'm guessing in the Australian e-tax situation, though, the tax form is simple enough that time isn't a major factor in this case.
Some or all of these conditions may exist for the Australian tax even if it a *new* app, because it may reuse code from other tax software. Either way, I just wanted to point out that cross-platform, we-based or open source software is not as an easy proposition as it always seems.
thru active x or any IE 'features' ... just like some US universities
then they will probably ban IE browser altogether
it's sensitive when it hits the money issue
An application designed to take money from its users only works on Windows; makes sense to me :-)
Why not deduct the retail cost of Windows as an expense of preparing your tax return? Even if the tax department denies it they may get the message.
They're generally a bit lazy in these sort of areas, at least they have some an online lodgement system. I've had a problem in the past with not having the right version of Windows, if I remember correctly I had Windows 2000 and Windows 9x was supported only.
Didn't one of the Aussie banking institutions just make news about windows inherant instability ./.
and endless security flaws touting Knoppix as the secure way for it's users to do online banking
(even going so far as providing clients with custom knoppix software to use).
So how is tax time any less important a job than online banking,
here's one old article about this
Cthulhu Saves -- in case He's hungry later.
why?!?!? What a bunch of fools. There's not a whole lot you can't accomplish with a windows interface (as far as data processing) that you can't with a web interface.
"You had this look that of an angel, it was such a bad disguise" --Dishwalla
Australia fucking sucks. It's a draconian place full of sport crazed technophobes who still think dialup is "new".
SWT and RCP are good choices for a cross platform app.
As to cross-platform/cross browser web apps. I've generally found that if you stick to XHTML 1.0 Strict, CSS 1.0, and the DOM 1 core object model for Javascript the web apps I've written just work cross browser 90% of the time, and the 10% of problem is the non-standard behavior of IE that I was going to have a problem with whether I supported the other browsers or not. Or at least that's been my experience doing aggressively cross browser web dev. Oh, and also avoid using tables for layout of non-tabular things. Frankly, what makes cross-browser dev hard is IE. If you live clean (ie standards complaint) your pages will just work in KHTML/Mozilla/Opera out of the box, but about 50% of your time will be spent trying to produce something to work around IEs bugs.
It costs the government hundreds of dollars to process a paper tax return, versus maybe ten to process an electronic return. If every non-Windows-user filed on paper, and included a note stating that they would have e-filed if the software worked on non-Windows platforms, that might give them the hint.
Finding God in a Dog
I wish to point out a quote that is favared among the Linux crowd, "free as in beer". To a no Linux user, this will appear strange since they know that everyone except bar owners and cute girls must pay for their peer. Therefore, people look at that term and go "what the hell? That's not true."
It is inherently confusing and should be steered away from when addressing people outside the club.
The email included this sentence near its beginning:
"To exploit a cliche - free as in speech, as well as free as in beer."
This is a poor idea as the author is asking for members of a community who might not be Linux users to "get" their message. this is not the correct way to address that audience. Talk to them in terms thay are likely to already understand instead of using the parlance of the Linux community that is probably poorly understoof outside of it.
- Zav - Imagine a Beowulf cluster of insensitive clods...
Sure this is inconvenient if you don't run windows, but there are still other ways to file yuor taxes. This is no different than getting pissed off if you are a truck driver and a parking lot at a business will only hold cars. Besides, you should be thankful you get to even file taxes for free online in Australia. In the US, you have to pay to efile most of the time.
Why not offer to help find a way to get this program running on your system of choice. They developed the program to run on the majority of users operating systems, they were not even required to do that. They could have set it up so that it only worked on your system and been inundated with the majority of people complaining. So in short HELP solve the problem do not just send an email.
...no Visa or MasterCard
You're writing a protest letter to a government organization, not posting to an online forum. Saying things like free as in beer and _emphasizing_ words with underscores makes you look more like some nut and is likely to result in your letter being dismissed all the more quickly.
Erm, doing your taxes on a public terminal isn't that bright...
And now clippy can do your taxes for you!
Just think of what would happen if someone h4x0red the tax server... All the social security #'s or whatever the Australian people use.
You look like you're trying to send money to an organization not approved by Microsoft. Send money to Microsoft? (y/n)
Yes. So why is it an application and not a cross-platform website that depends only on a functioning web browser? Other countries have managed this technical feat.
i gave one uk department a very polite form of hell, and, amazingly, it worked.
.doc format).
i basically explained to them that what they were doing was forcing people to fork out £500 for windows software plus another £500 for a computer capable of _running_ the windows software.
i then liked this into "discrimination", for which they could quite seriously get into trouble.
to their credit, they actually responded, sorted out the web site (and stopped publishing things in
Linux and OS X users (like myself) must face up to the reality that our operating systems make up a tiny percentage of the overall installed base. As much as we like to complain when software isn't released for our platform, what are companies supposed to do? The gov't did release the software for a "wide spectrum of PC users". They covered 90% of their users with one program! That is just one of the problems with running an alternative operating system, and I wish people would stop complaining when a company or government makes an economically sound decision that unfortunately excludes the extreme minority of computer users.
Right, the last thing the Australians need is for a bunch of Americans(yes, this is a predominately American site) telling them how to do their tax system.
Governments create and enforce laws for the good of their citizens. Standards bodies create standards, regulations and guidelines that are tremendously beneficial and good for all people in the world. Governments enforces some of them for safety and security. Why don't they mandate/require IT standards for the benefit of their citizens?
Some states in the US are starting to do that (MASSACHUSETTS & MINNESOTA). FOSS already support all standards but MS refuses and worse, they break them. If most countries in the world start doing the same, MS will have no choice but to abide and be obliged to furnish software that support world Standards. If they don't, FOSS will break the MS monopoly and make huge progress in gaining popularity. Keep in mind that FOSS needs political power for that.
This stroke me as really surprising! I consider Portugal to be quite behind in terms of government websites... but we've been submitting TAX reports through the web for 4 years now, and although I don't recall the 1st year, the program is the same for the last 3 years, and it works perfectly on either Windows or Linux (and I'd bet Mac - it seems quite browser independant).
:)
I thought Australia could very well do better, and not worse...
"I don't mind God, it's his fan club I can't stand!" E8
Anything that cares what the client is using to access the web server does not qualify for "web services" in my book.
If they can't offer their service to those in some manner that ignores the chosen platform of the user, they need a new web department, since the one they have seems to have difficulty understanding the core concepts behind their chosen profession.
I sent an email last year after using e-Tax on a borrowed windows machine. I never got a response to that email. The software seems to be somewhat java based, and I don't see why they need to wrap it in a .exe. Aren't governments supposed to make this easy for everyone and not discriminate? Is this not discrimination?
404 Not Found The requested signature was not found on this server.
As someone who worked in the ATO for two and a half years, I can assure you that this decision is probably only because their systems people are so retarded they were incapable of developing anything for Linux or Mac. My wife worked in the ATO's computer systems area as a tester. The product they were developing was due to be released for beta testing the day before she went on maternity leave. Our son is now six and a half, and the product is still awaiting release, or was when she left that area in February this year. This is just and example one project within the ATO's systems, but having worked there myself, I do not believe that there is any likelihood it is an isolated incident. Another example (from the same area) is that they hired an IT firm to design the specs for this project, with a timeline of 8 months. After 32 months, the ATO decided this IT firm (It's a big name, so I wont name it here) was unlikely to deliver the result, so the consulting firm was dismissed. But the total cost to the ATO - and hence the payment to the IT firm - was more for this botched job than for the original contract (the ATO has bad lawyers too!). Another example of ineptitude at ATO IT - I was asked to help with a 'disaster management' plan when I was there in 1996. And we discovered that the backups for ALL the ATO's data are kept in the same building as the originals. So if you were a terrorist (for example) wanting to bring down the AU govt, you wouldn't need to kill anyone, just burn down their IT building - all records, and backups, of the tax debts etc would vanish. I am not surprised the ATO couldn't develop something for Linux or Mac. I AM surprised they managed to develop a product for Windows!
The E-Tax software has been windows only for the past few years; since it's inception, in fact.
;) (look! ma! I made a funny)
:)
Apparently this bloke doesn't lodge alot of tax returns.
Anyway, a vanilla build of wine with a couple of downloads from our favourite software giants web site deals quite well with this software. Last year in any case, one would assume Wine has improved with age and probably still works
Frankly, however, I would rather pay the small and tax-deductable ammount to have a professional keep my records for me
Actually we just sell fosters to the rest of the world, nobody here drinks it. We drink good beer.
I guess you're talking about Heineken, or - even better - Grolsch?
"Utterly incompetent"? Silly monkey. It would've been utterly incompetent if they hadn't released a tax return submission application at all. A solution that serves 90% of the population adequately is fine for now.
The application isn't even particularly appropriate for complex tax returns, which should still be done using pen and paper.
Yes, the Australian government could've arranged for a cross-platform solution to be built. SFW? They're probably doing that right now. In the meantime it's not like there's a lot of suffering going on. Most of the people commenting in this thread could've filled out their tax returns in the time it's taken them to whine about how hard it is.
I used eTax to do my tax return last financial yar, and it was actually quite straightforward and easy to use. And I agree that it's not worth the government's time or money to create cross-platform software that is only used once a year by such a small portion of computer users.
It is a very very complex piece of programming following the majority of the income tax laws.. There would quite a few very very thick books worth of tax laws represented in this one program.
In Soviet Russia the insensitive clod is YOU!
The Apple crowd can pay an accountant, they like spending money, it makes them feel special.
The Linux deciples can use pen and paper, they like wading through documentation and doing things the hard way, it makes them feel special.
I mean it's outrageous that the govenment only support the massive majority, what about PocketPC, Palms, smartphones, speak'n'spell users, myfirstlaptop users, all sidelined!!
Malta's E-ID identification is similarly Windows only because it was programmed by Microsoft. Similarly it excludes other OSes.
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*shrugs* Wine works fine. Last year I submitted my tax via eTax. Had a few formatting issues but worked fine then too. Stuart
People are replying: "they cater for a large group".
Agreed. However, the WEB is such a success because it's standards based. You can develop a new browser that conforms to the standards, and if it's good it will gather marketshare. On the other end, you can design webservers and webpages that conform to standards. And voila, everybody will be able to access your server and content.
It takes a genuine EFFORT to make a site that only works on a certain platform.
If you make a simple site, and think a bit about what you want, and need, you can easily make a site that works for everybody.
In this case, what do you need?
In the simplest form, you just fill in all the blanks, hit submit and you're done. Problem is, there are so very many "blanks", and most people don't need them all, that you want "quick-skip" feature. For example, a pre-selection: "did you have income-from-work? Do you have a house? Do you have a spouse?". All very simple stuff, easy to do in plain HTML.
If you want, you can use a little "works on allmost all browsers" java script that adds a bunch of blanks "live", without the user having to go through a submit-and-fetch-a-new-page process.
Just a little more effort is required to allow both processes to work, allowing even the browsers wtihout javascript full access.
How would you feel if your town hall had a sign outside: We have installed a new anti-terrorist measure. Cameras recognize faces. However we regret to inform you that this system does not work on Asian faces. People with an Asian origin are requested to use the internet: All features of this town hall can now be accessed over the internet. If you don't have internet, there is an internet cafe across the street.
Fair, right? Most (>90%) of the community can access the public place straight away. There is an "escape" for those who can't. Right?
In this case, it's illegal discrimination. Whats the difference with making a "tax form" available to people who have a certain operating system?
Ah, this internet tax-return form is a new feature, the old way still works. What about a new area on the town hall with (for some) desirable features (but nothing that can't be done in the old town hall), but a "no blacks" on the entrance?
FOI probably wouldn't help. I don't think that the Australian Taxation Office actually has the source - etax development was outsourced, and I think the ATO gets only the finished program.
In my opinion the biggest issue isnt that the program is windows only, it is that its non-free.
I wouldnt trust my government to run code on my computer that i dont know shit what it does.
Didn't they have one of those in mediaeval England?
Use the various online feedback forms at the Australian Tax Office that start at this page.
Looking at space, radio, science and computing from a 'down-under' amateur enthusiast perspective.
Don't know about AU, but in the US, you can deduct the cost of tax prepartaion fees (CPA, tax preparer, tax software, etc).
:-D
If you need a windos computer to prepare and submit your taxes, the entire cost could be a write off
Probably not, but interesting loophole don't you thing?
get real, put yourself into their smelly shoes...
While most desktops may be MS windows based, a significant portion of the target audience (internet using and aware) are using firefox (19.7%) http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.a sp , and as it is generally the early adopters using something like etax, is likely to be even more than that.
The ATO is excluding or alienating maybe 30% of their audience.
Not quite always. It was originally based on an IE ActiveX plug-in, way back in 1999 I think. For the last few years it has been a remarkably easy to use, truly cross-platform, web application (just don't try doing it at the last minute - server load gets them every time... =:-0)