Slashdot Mirror
Disney World Collecting Fingerprints
cvd6262 writes "Disney World is now requiring all visitors to have their index and middle fingers scanned to gain entrance to the park. This started for season pass holders, but is now required for everyone." From the article: "'I think it's a step in the wrong direction,' Civil Liberties Union spokesman George Crossley said. 'I think it is a step toward collection of personal information on people regardless of what Disney says.'"
With that aside, WHO CARES. You cannot be uniquely identified by your hand geometry, it simply reduces the chance that you are using someone elses pass.
Don't like Disney's policies? Take your business elsewhere.
I recently went there for the 4th of July (well, arrived around the second). After buying the tickets we decided to go to Disney Quest (Arcade).. We waited in line for quite awhile waiting for a number of people in front of us to do the whole two finger scan deal. Usually, it wouldn't work the first time, and they would need to do it over, and over.. One group in front of us couldn't get in because the girl's fingers didn't match her card. Nothing about how it wasn't a valid card, just the fingers didn't match.
What I was told was the first time you use the system they take a shot of your fingers, this is used across the parks afterwards. My group of friends laughed when I raised an eyebrow at the fact that they were collecting fingerprints (though apparently not, generally it would be taken as that).. I was a bit annoyed at the fact that my prints were then on record with Disney. What exactly is the point? Keeping people from reusing the pass? Ok, that is fair, but it would have seemed better to use something like "It was used twice in minutes? That makes no sense!" Or perhaps "They haven't left the building yet, how has it been used elsewhere?"
It just seems like they've put way too much work into making it harder.
Proceed with Format (Y/N)? Y
Last time I went, they wanted an arm and a leg.
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
I sort of got mixed feelings about this. On one hand, we have to give up our biometrics. On the other, at least we don't have to get rectal exams on entry to the park.
I think this has some potential for abuse - I hope they secure their data well.
My middle finger for sure.... before they see me.
Welcome our new oversized-eared mouse overlords!
...either your civil liberties or your soul, take your pick. (All on the taxpayer's dime, of course...)
Osama wants to bomb Mickey Mouse! Someone please think of the children!
It's not news. They've been doing this for nearly 10 years.
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Not sure about the index finger, but I'll certainly be giving Disney a chance to "scan" my middle finger after reading about this one.
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While agreeing with the ACLU that this is a step in the wrong direction, it is not as troubling as one thinks. We must keep it in mind that Disney is a private corporation and is able to set barriers to access to its parks. As long as they're not discriminating based on protected categories, their requirement for fingerprints must be protested with lack of patronage but little else. Ultimately, I think in overly security-concious America, we'll see that the public views this as a 'lesser evil' in the broader war on 'terror'. Indeed, they'll gladly surrender their fingerprints in order for the mirage of safety within Disney - perhaps they prefer it to a seemingly non-secure environment like ... oh Six Flags?
The only problem I could see is if this applies to season-ticket or regular-ticket owners who bought their tickets under circumstances that did notinvolve fingerprinting and are now faced with fingerprinting or being refused access to the park.
"There's no success like failure, and failure's no success at all."
- Bob Dylan
Thankfully, I just went to disney about 2 months ago, so I've had my fill for the next decade or so. I would never consent to such an invasion of my privacy. What next, DNA testing? Blood samples? How can the american public put up with this? ...Sigh...
---
the pen is mightier than the sword, the sword is mightier than the court, the court is mightier than the pen.
This isn't happening at Disneyland...it's happening at various part of Disney WORLD. Yes, it's splitting hairs, but they are two different places.
Karma: Non-existant. Due mostly to the fact that you smell funny and nobody likes you.
2 years from now they are going for DNA .. creepy
RUPERT! I TOLD YOU TO WATCH THE BAGS! You were looking at the boys again, WEREN'T YOU.
Is there any identity associated with your prints, in this case? What if you want to pay for your admission in cash, and you left your wallet back in the hotel room?
After all, the whole point of cash is to allow you to conduct anonymous financial transacations, is it not?
Solomon Kevin Chang
"Twice half-assed makes an ass whole." --Solomon K. Chang
You want to force people to get down on all fours to get their anal probe.
You'd think that instead of all this finger scanning, they'd just scan the inside of your ass when they do the anal probe and get it over with in one easy step.
WTF is this Mickey Mouse bullshit?
"Disney officials said the finger scans do not take an actual fingerprint. The scan recognizes certain points and outlines visitor's fingers, officials said."
We had something similar at the University of Georgia years ago - you'd scan your card then put your hand on a scanner that would verify you were who your card said. It didn't actually take a finger or palm print, just the geometry of your hand. It's hard to imagine how that could be used against you - not even CSI has figured out a way to work them into a criminal case.
The reason I don't like biometrics for identification is that it's virtually impossible to get a new identification should the old one be compromised. Worse, with fingerprints at least, you're leaving copies of your ID everywhere you go on everything you touch.
Imagine someone gets ahold of your identity right now. Yes, it's going to be a pain, but you can get a new SSN, driver's license number, credit cards, etc. But what if a thief gets your fingerprint and creates a fake ? How do you cancel that? Sure, in theory, a database of compromised biometrics could be created to prevent future unauthorized use, but now what about your legitimate use? If my fingerprints were compromised, would I no longer be allowed in to Disneyland? And in a more serious application, would I be denied credit? Be unable to use an ATM?
Although it is clearly not fingerprints now, it makes me think like this is just a lead-up to actual fingerprinting. They get everyone use to the idea of biometrics at the park, well at the same time trying to keep privacy advocates slightly less angry.
Voice your opinion!
As a resident near Orlando, FL, I remember when Disney World first started using these biometric systems for Florida resident passholders. Prior to the finger scans, the passes had an ID photo which made the lines go much slower while a ticket attendant checked to make sure the picture matched you. The long and short of it is, the privacy concerns are no worse than having your picture taken was.
:-P
Yeah, you probably can't buy a park hopper ticket and give it to a terrorist now, but you shouldn't be doing that anyway.
They are not collecting fingerprinting. They are scanning just fingerPOINTS o finger geometric information. It can't be used to match a fingerprint in any database.
Anyway, you can opt-out of being finger scanned, just showing any photo-ID where your name match the one printed in the ticket.
I prefer this than being stamped with a UV sensitive ink.
(English is not my first language!)
DNA in your Linux: DNALinux
This story is about Walt Disney World in Florida. Disneyland, the park in California, still uses good old fashioned paper tickets.
...being that he only has four fingers and all and hence no real middle finger.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a fat white guy who is threatened by change."
Well I did my part: I clicked the "No, I don't like it" button on their survey. Twice!
What if you managed to get your index finger lopped off (or at least "slightly damaged") during your stay at the park?
Or what if you happened to break your hand at work, got a huge settlement, and are now taking time off... will this thing recognize bits of your cast?
Swelling due to a beesting or some allergy perhaps?
In any case, I wonder what Disney's policy is for these sorts of unusual cases.
Wouldn't it be a problem for long-term ticket holders who grow up and their fingers change?
I'm sure not sure this has to due with annual pass fraud detection. In the aftermatch of the London bombers, Disney doesn't want to point out that their park involves "very tightly packed crowds" and "international symbol of American decadence/innocence" -very bad for ticket sales.
They would do the finger scan, and if it didn't work the first time the attendant would usually just manually override the scanner and let you in without much hassle. Also, the person I was with and I have similiar hand sizes, and flip-flopped passes all week. It almost certainly isn't a fingerprint scanner, just a very rough check.
Additionally, it seemed that the biggest issue with the scanner was not getting your fingers all the way into the device. If they weren't pushed all the way in, with the webbing between your index and middle fingers hitting the stopper peg, it didn't register. We kept trying to put our finger tips on the scanner assuming it was a finger print scanner, but it seems its main function is to check finger length. Of course, this is just an observation I made, I have no idea how the thing actually works.
You don't make the poor richer by making the rich poorer. - Winston Churchill
The terrorist who wants to blow people up will just get a job at one of the parks and wear 20 lbs. of explosives under his Goofy costume.
Disney is one of the most hipocritical and anti-freedom companies in existance. I for one would not visit their parks for any reason, but this is simply ridiculous.
I fucking hate Disney for what they have done to our laws. I hate them for using this hand scanner. They are bastards.
Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
That is a major reason they do this - for only $500 (annual pass) a whole lot of people could get in.
They do make a significant amount of money on ticket sales, and once you're in you don't have to give them a cent if you dont want to.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
They can take my prints off of Sleeping Beauty's voluptuous ass. Seriously, that bitch got back.
If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
They do it to allow a day pass to go in and out, without being used by multiple people.
Seems like a nicely elegant solution to me!
There's a poll in the original story, a simple yes no maybe box with a submit button. /.'er responded it would be easy to push the poll in the direction of individual liberties and defense of privacy.
If every
Yes, I am aware it's not an official Disney poll but there's still a chance they'd pay attention to the results if they were overwhelmingly negative because the tv channel hosting the poll is neutral.
Quitely Osama distributes memos with instructions for all followers to cut off their index and middle fingers in the name of Jihad!
Shut up. And stop drooling.
Don't like it, don't go to Disneyland.
Yeah, sure. Okay, it's creepy, but hey, it's just Disneyland. I don't have to go there. And tomorrow Blockbuster Video starts requiring a scan to rent a video, but hey, it's just video-rental. Soon the Mobil gas-station starts using biometrics for their speedpass. Then maybe the bank wants your prints if you want to open account. And if the government starts requiring it first for their services and later legislates it as a requirement for other businesses, well, it's not as if it wasn't being used everywhere already, right?
I prefer to stop these things BEFORE they become the accepted norm.
... if someone has a better way of solving this identity card problem...
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
I, for one, welcome our Mickey Mouse overlords.
Don't like it? Don't go to Disney. Too bad for you - it's their park, their property, their rules.
Life sucks. Get a helmet.
I'm an amputee, you insensitive clods!
australian project gutenberg is better than the original.
You know, you had a reasonable (if somewhat rambling) argument in your post right up until the last sentance...
...why, because the Iraq war is unjustified, or because the cops stole your fingerprints? I have no idea where you live but it is irrelevant. I know people born and bred in my country who would also recommend nuking cities as a political tool.
"I hope a nuke goes off in NYC, or should I say NYX."
Your kind are of no particular colour, you cover the spectrum of politcs and privlage. You need not worry about Disney or the cops, you are easy to recognise from your advocacy of a "final solution" that makes the rest of us want to puke!
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Idiots chirping 'don't like it don't use it' in a gay voice just don't understand.
/. about a small town gym was requiring fingerprints. That's just plain silly.
When someone like Disney do something like this, it sets a very bad precident. Other smaller companies then think they need to do be doing it for some reason. It wasn't that long ago I was reading on
It's a current psycological fad that has come as a result of the War against Terror(TM) and people just lap it up unquestionably and think it's 'necessary'. It's also because the equiptment involved has become a lot cheaper and easier to deploy.
The real problem is people dont' question it. Even the staff don't really know why they are doing it.
That is bad enough before you even get to the repurcussions of enormous databases of physical individuals access to certain facilities, which in the case of Disney are probably being heavily tracked and probably include the tracking of children too.
I think in time, this kind of bs may actually go away as a silly fad. But it may be a while before it does.
Disney certainly has the right to do that. And we certainly have the right not to go to Disney. I'm sure Universal Studios will accept us with open arms.
What about Euro Disney or Disney California? Is this only in Florida?
q
...don't go to DisneyWorld. End of problem. It's a private park, not government or public property. Don't like their policies? Don't do business with them.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
I hear that. My girlfriend and I just moved from los angeles to south florida. Its a shame cuz we were planning on visiting disneyworld but to hell with that now.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/cixel
...that a company started by an American supporter of the Nazi party could have had such a detrimental effect on the slippery slope that is civil liberties. Colour me surprised.
Next thing you know they will cynically have copyright laws changed to suit their company assets... oh wait a minute...
Blessed are the 1337, for they shall pwn the earth.
All of you American citizens out there, listen up. Whether or not Disney is on the up and up about this, there's only one way to fix the problem once and for all. It's time for every good citizen to petition their political representitives for privacy laws that mean something. In my job, I deal with privacy laws from countries around the world. We plan what we have to do to comply with the local laws of each country. When we come to the US, more often than not it's "don't worry about it, the law doesn't mean a thing". Isn't it about time we make it mean something? Get politically active. It's the only way to make a difference. You can bet the RIAA, MPAA, Disney, Microsoft, even fair haired IBM are politically active.
The US used to have a government that was for its citizens. It's about time we had one again.
The NSA: The only part of the US government that actually listens.
The parent post could only be considered insightfull if read like this...
"I hope a terrorists gets in and blows up tons of people...This is evil. It is so unfuckingbelievable"
I don't want Disney to have my prints either but wishing for people to be blown up for your own parinoid ideology is certainly evil. Doesn't matter who the fuck you are, eh George?
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Man, you need to stop and think hard about exactly what you're saying. This is just slashdot, but that kind of reactionary attitude doesn't solve anyone's problems, it just causes them. Grow up and learn to reason rationally.
Sorry to say this, but I just don't understand what's so appealing about standing in line on a hot day for hours to go on some stupid ride; and actually having to pay to do it too!
Best. Webhost. Ever. Dreamhost.
Nah. Don't forget the corporate mindset of avoiding liability at all costs. A rectal internal vein scan for positive identification would add all sorts of nasty possibilities for liability.
i zonChinaTelecom theme park. Unfortunately, or RectalScan2000 machine has determined that you have rectal cancer. To help you in dealing with your grief, we are offering you tickets to our park at 50% off. Because the spread of rectal cancer is still a medium that we largely don't understand, please do not use our restrooms should you decide to visit again."
A) You rectal scan someone, and find they have rectal cancer. What do you do here? Send them a letter? "Thank you for visiting the DisneyWorldTimeWarnerAolParamountDreamworksCNNVer
Or even better, do you have a giant Rectal Cancer light right there in the probing stall? You know, the little unhappy smiley face that looks constipated? It's not even an option!
b)The spread of AIDS would become a real problem. The regular anal probe is only the size and shape of a baseball bat. One with a camera in it would have to be made out of a telephone pole, which is much harder to sanitize correctly.
c)Don't forget all of the "You found the Virgin Mary in one of your rectal scans, and kept it secret from the public!" lawsuits.
This list goes on and on. Instead, the corporate lawyers have just recommended that they stick to a simple "Wham Bam, thank you Mickey!" rectal probe to give people a listing impression of their stay at the Big D.
I know I should have posted this anonymously, but...heh. What's another lawsuit? Get in line!
Dude, this is called arbitration. A buys something, but doesn't use it up, so A sells it to B. Disney hasn't lost anything - they were already paid for the days A couldn't use.
If they prevent B from buying A's unused tickets and force B to buy a new ticket that means they're double dipping.
Not a moral thing to do. But of course, in the good old USA, this is not only legal, it's the thing to do. Profits uber alles.
My mother could not bend her fingers to fit the device. The "cast member" simply swiped a card and let her in. I don't know if you can refuse to put your fingers in, but if you're having trouble it will be bypassed.
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
"..I just went to disney about 2 months ago...I would never consent to such an invasion of my privacy"
Numerous posts have pointed out the system has been in use for up to 10yrs, are you saying Disney time travel really works?
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
I am pretty sure that this is not new. Even the ancient greeks, who thought it honorable to be involved in politics, eventually became apathetic. Not everyone here in the British-owned colonies was for the American Revolution. Some were for, some were against, and some didn't care. Some were against because they were loyal to Britain, others were against simply to maintain the status quo. And even after the Brits left America alone it still took many years for only a few people to agree on a constitution. Something must have turned out right during that (USA is one of the youngest countries, but I believe the oldest government) but the same will eventually be true. America will someday go the way of Rome and Greece and any other nation. This happens and we should try to keep it from happening, but it's not new.
Stop Global Warming!
Just say no to irreversible processes!
To think I made a stink at the airport when the United States wanted to collect my fingerprint data so I could get into the country. Then without even browsing my passport the guy questioned the pupose of my 5 day visit to the Middle East. He clearly wasn't psychic either which means his computer red flagged my name when he punched it in. I went to a water park and got accosted by Dubai's finest working girls. The visit to the states was identical in that respect. National ID cards and the following civil rights rebellion of 2019 here we come.
This is really sad. My family and I have had a number of good Disney World trips. Their service has always been second to none IMHO. But given a choice, we'll be taking our business elsewhere rather than be treated like criminals just to get into the park. So I guess we'll be heading to Six Flags the next time out. The article states that Universal Theme Parks may institute similar policies, so I guess I won't be going there either. Disney World and the others need to get a clue that their services are not essentials. Treat the customer as less than king, and the customer will go elsewhere or do without. I think on this one word of mouth and a decline in attendance will tell the tale. I just don't think that people are going to put up with finger scanning just to get into an amusement park.
To the making of books there is no end, so let's get started
The TV channel and Disney are both in the entertainment bussines, how could the article or the poll be Neutral?
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
And I hope a terrorists gets in and blows up tons of people. You will deserve it.
Even if Disney deserves it - do those people deserve it?
You make the mistake of thinking you can educate the fundamental stupidity out of people. You can't.
Cockprints.
paintball
I can explain what is being said, I am not sure I agree with it.
If my SSN or password is stollen I can change it in theory.
Biometrics if forged have a couple of problems that are unique to it just based on the stability.
Like DNA evidence, if it is 100% trusted, nothing can argue with it.
Also if a method is standardized and accepted everywhere, then someone figures out how to fake your ID you have absolutely no way to change it.
and they never wanted animators to leave a print on their cels. hmmmmm, do I smell a plot here?
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
Snidley Frux-Disney, adopted great-grand nephew of Walt Disney's mentally handicapped half-brother Edgar "See What I Do On A Steamboat" Disney said "This is a positive move, we believe it's time for Mickey and Goofy to learn the goose step".
"Liberty Is For Chumps" will feature Mickey and Goofy in a moral dilemna as they discover that Minnie votes Democrat and donates to the ACLU. "We thought this was the perfect time to retire the character of Minnie, with some real snazzy shots of the Disney Prison, Disney Riot Squad and the Disney Execution Chamber."
"In Do You Know What Your Parents Are Saying When The Door Is Locked", Goofy discovers that his mother and father are actually distressed that the Patriot Act may be giving away far too freedoms. Mickey sings a brand new Disney hit "Those Little Birds Will Shut Up If They Know What's Good For Them". Naturally, there's some rousing fun as Goofy arrests his parents for thought treason.
A third film, entitled "Your DNA Belongs To Us" is scheduled for release next year.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Mommy: So, Jimmy. Now that you're finally recovered after months of painful rehabilitation after losing your arms and legs in that awful car accident, what would you like to do to celebrate?
Jimmy: Yay! I want to go to Disney World and see Micky!!
Mommy: Oh, ah...hrmmm. I hate to tell you this, Jimmy...
I am the inventor of the hilarious refrigerator alarm.
If the ACLU is so concerned about my fingerprint(*) being on a Disneyland pass, where the fsck where they when my freaking PICTURE was being taken? Why are the so concerned about fingerprints at Disneyland but completely and utterly silent about my fingerprints at the Department of Motor Vehicles? Where the hell where they when I was fingerprinted as part of my earlier employment as a teacher?
Do they really think the government is so noble and enlightened that they can give it a free ride? Disney can't ruin my life with a fingerprint, the government can.
(*) actually a hand geometry instead
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
But they do it with facial recognition technology. I don't see how this is any different or a problem. I would like to see laws that this type of information has be placed on the record and people have to be made aware of it.
If what you are reading sounds funny, or sarcastic, lame, or stupid
it is because it is supposed to be. just laugh
Mickey Mouse can have my fingerprints when he pries them off my cold dead fingers.
While Disney (or other companies) may have more rights to collect information, what compels them to keep that information to themselves?
so wait, does that mean mickey is going to have to take off his gloves?!
Thanks for the link to Roger Nash Baldwin. I'm from Australia and don't know much about the history of the ACLU, so I followed the link. I fail to see why you would consider him a "galaxy-class Nut" or why you would cherry-pick a quote that portrays him as a communist radical.
The article states he broke off all radical communist ties in disgust over the Soviet-Nazi pact of 1939, he was a commited pacifist and conciencious objector to WW1. He also rubbed shoulders with the number one communist hunter, General MacAurtur. After WW2 MacAurtur invited him to establish civil liberties organisations in Japan, Germany and Austria. He was awarded both the Medal of Freedom by J.Carter and the Order of the Rising Sun by the Japaneese Government. All of the above does not even scratch the surface of his other accomplishments such as the original Scopes trial.
"But I sure as hell don't need the ACL-freakin'-U to 'protect' me."
I think you need them more than most, your anology with "singing and dancing" is not about commerce. It is a lame excuse for your willingness to kiss the arse of the man who wields the whiskey bottle.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
here, let me hold it up for you.
sigs are for losers (except to point out that sigs are for losers)
Take your kids to yellowstone instead of disney. Inspire them to get excited about the place, and run around for a while. They'll grow up healthier, and smarter. If you cant figure out someplace to go other than disney, I pity the poor kids you'll raise (or have raised).
Really. I think many here are not realizing the implications that this post demonstrates.
Information doesn't want to be anthropomorphized anymore.
A few notes/corrections
-Even though this has been said before... IT IS NOT FINGERPRINTS! The system takes a few measurements at points around your finger - basically to take a rough measurement on how big your fingers are and the span between them.
-This is NOT a new system - This has been in place for annual passes for almost 10 years now and has been in place for all tickets since January.
-The information is not tied to your personal information at ALL. It is simply tied to the ticket information - the system is NOT THAT SMART. It is not pulling your demographic information from some other source to see if you personally have fat fingers. There is no conspiracy here - Don't give the system that much credit...
-The system uses a VERY ROUGH ESTIMATE... why? Because otherwise in the florida weather where you swell up due to heat or if you gained/lost weight it would be a nightmare with tickets being rejected every 2 seconds.. If you are close - it lets you in!
-Why use this instead of photos? Human error - after you look at photos all day everyone starts to look the same and you stop caring enough to pay attention and stop people unless it is very obvious.. plus the time factor.
-What is this used to prevent? - People reselling tickets... Not to stop use of a ticket 2 minutes later.. the turnstiles are already smart enough to stop that.
how is he going to get in?
And I hope a terrorists gets in and blows up tons of people.
Because this part:
You want to destroy freedom, more than the terrorists.
Strikes me as pretty insightful, frankly.
And have been for a while - I'm not sure of the exact date they started, but it caught me off guard when we went earlier this year. I wasn't happy, but I was asked by my significant other not to cause a scene about it.
First, it IS THEIR park, THEY OWN it, THEY DECIDE who gets in and HOW.
Secondly, they are not collecting fingerprints, they are checking something personally identifiable, that is the geometery of the hand, of the owner of the passes and tickets. No different than using a hand scanner at a business to control access to a sensitive area as far as I'm concerned. Don't like it, don't go there.
Why is it so hard to understand that this has NOTHING to do with your freedoms? Unless Disney suddenly was handed power without someone telling me, they can do with and control their property and services as they see fit. My choice to spend my money on business with them as I see fit. Why is this such a hard thing to grasp?
If my grammar and spelling are off, I am [distracted/tired/careless] (take your pick)
Don't let them sample and gene scan you! They're just selecting their next victims for Disney Abductions! Have you or anyone you love:
Disappeared for off-the-map hours at a Disney site.
Been completely unable to remember where the time went.
Had a wonderful time, no need to do hypnotic regression recall, keep back you mothers of sons! If so, you might be Cory Doctorow. Please contact your Magic Kingom Hall.
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
All these half hearted attempts at security using stuff that is supposedly perfect but doesn't come close will actually make it easier for confidence tricksters in the future.
Weren't you the same people that elected Bush president?
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
OMG now they know my finger geometry! would the government even WANT to buy that? who cares! from what some people have been saying, it doesn't even work half the time! it can't even be that accurate.
many people probably have the same finger geometry, this is just a tool to prevent someone from using someone elses pass and there's probably about a 1 in 100,000 chance of you having similar finger geometry to another person, not a 1 in 6 billion chance like you would for a finger print scan.
The device seems only "good enough" to prevent me from giving my annual ticket to my friend so he can get a free day at one of the parks.
Now Disney's parks have a lot of visitors each year, but how much can they be losing per pass that is 'loaned' out like this? Or, rather, is the ammount that they make by preventing pass sharing greater than or at least equal to the cost to deploy such a system?
We have a lot of IT folk here, someone correct me if I'm wrong on my guesses, but I'm going to put the price tag on a system like this to be well over six figures annually. Several IT folk to run the servers, software & hardware, training for the booth monkeys, some sort of service contract with someone to maintain and replace scanners, etc. Are there that many passholders with friends?
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
That's not a probe they're sticking up there
The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
Maybe it's time to give them... the finger? Hmm? Ah-thank-you
...what if there were no rhetorical questions?
Seems like I go through this every time a biometric security thing comes up on /.
There are three fundimental ways to identify yourself for access:
Something you have.
Something you know.
Something you are.
Something you have would be a physical token that can't be copied, at least not easily. A smartcard would be a good example. Someone has to physically steal it from you to use it, and you are likely to notice it's absence and alert the proper people. However the problem is that it can be stolen, or lost and thus used.
Something you know would be a password or PIN code. It's an ID stored in your head. The advantage is you don't have to carry it around and can't lose it. The problem is if someone finds it out, they can use it without you ever knowing it's been compramised.
Something you are is of course a physical trait. The good thing is that can't be stolen or anything. Problem is what you are changes, and can't be measured precisely anyhow and thus can be spoofed.
Now, real security comes from using 2 or three of these. Since their problems are different, moving to more than one makes it much harder to compramise security. If all that is required to get on a system is a password, all an intruder needs to do is find out the password and they are in. If, however, it takes a password, smart card, and fingerprint they have to find out the password, steal the card, and obtain and make a fake finger, all before any of this is noticed and access can be revoked.
So, in the case of Disneyland, they are maoving from 1-factor (somthing you have) to 2 (something you have and something you are). Even if someone steals your card, they have to build a fake hand (it's checking hand geometry, not fingerprints) and use it unnoticed. However the real aim is to prevent peopel from shaing their cards. It's easy to give away a token, much harder to make a convincing fake hand and not get caught.
So biometrics are NOT worthless unless they are the only security. When used as an augmentation to one or both of the other methods of security they make it that much harder for someone unauthorized to gain access.
"... how exactly?"
Easy: it's using a technological means to collect personally identifiable information about you.
I've often thought that engineers have a moral responsibility to not work on certain technologies that can be easily used to subvert a persons constitutional rights. Luckily for the bad guys, there are immoral engineers.
-- Terry
Do you think they need giant hand scanners, for when Mickey, Goofy etc arrive at work?
Looks like Disney should know about this too... http://www.cbc.ca/stories/print/2002/12/03/norwalk _virus021203
I guess I'll have to give them my middle finger if they want it so bad!
-Palal
I didn't know that Disney was liberal.
Waiiii!!!!!! I have bad karma!
Our family's last two experiences with Disneyland: ~1996 our family group of 10, including elderly grandmother, was delayed 50 minutes entrance because gate wanted a 2nd set of sale documents (besides the "tickets") back at the hotel room. Never had that kind of bs elsewhere. I think Disney wasted $$$ of our time and patience for a mediocre experience tainted by vicious gate policies. Kid went to California, Disneyland with hs band 2 yrs ago came home sick and unimpressed. Save your money, and don't support greed-head facists, a real waste of money. I won't subscribe to ANY Disney product. Thaw Walt, chill out the rest the you. Gummy fingers for grimey grinches.
Confirmation that Disney is the propaganda wing of the new world order. :)
Nothing sucks like a Vax, nothing blows like a PowerMac G4
Even if Disney deserves it - do those people deserve it?
No, the people don't deserve getting hurt. The employees don't deserve getting hurt. Nobody does, not anywhere, not in the USA or anywhere. It is just so frustrating watching the America I love turn into a country where human rights and civil liberties no longer mean very much. It was frustrating being called unpatriotic for not supporting the war, like I am less of an American because I don't blindly follow, and question statements government makes, for example "we were fighting for WMD" then "No, it was never about WMD, it was about removing a dictator". Does anyone remember the presentation Powell gave at the UN showing drawings of mobile WMD factories on wheels driving around Iraq. Did my mind make that up? Do people remember any of it, or do they not care??
The government is supposed to protect all the people, to value democoracy, to gaurentee individual liberty so people can read whatever they want, work anywhere, and be free. Instead, there are libraries that require fingerprints, Disney World scanning fingerprints. It follows logic, as the price of these fingerprint machines goes down, more stores will be buying them. What will it be like, when in order to pump gas you first have to scan your fingerprints, to make sure you don't drive off. Then Hotels decide they like the idea of fingerprints scans, no more keys to rooms. Then the airplains and trains decide that in order to ride, they want a fingerprint. Then the stores in poorer neighborhoods want them, for fear of being robbed. Soon, it will be hard to find places that don't want your fingerprint.
And you know what is waiting in the shadows. Some large corporation that will buy this data and put it in some uber-large database. Your whole life will be in a computer somewhere. Your habits, where you shop, what you buy, how much you make, what you read, if you preffer coke to pepsi.
What if one day there is a government that wants a coup, to overthrow the democracy we have. Would it be easier if these people had large databases, to know exactly who to go after, the troublemakers who would make noise?
Now, take that information with what employeers are doing. Large companies convinced the USA to pass NAFTA, the companies promised it would be good for American workers. Instead, these same companies are building factories in Mexico, and firing people in the USA. Jobs that people need, that familes relied on. Watch Roger and Me, it is a good example of what can happen when a large factory closes its doors, how a community can turn from upscale into a poverty stricken ghost town. And don't get me wrong, if these companies paid the same wage to mexicans as they did to americans, I would not be complaining, but they are paying the mexicans an unlivable wage. It is slave labor, when people have to work their hearts out to make just enough to eat.
And employers are getting worse. A local computer store now requires applicants to take a drug test, then come back and take a personality test which they never tell you the results to, then the last step is agreeing for a credit check. This is for a $9.50 an hour job working the floor stocking hard drives, video cards, and anwsering customer questions. And after they hire the person, they still never tell them the results to those tests, or what they did with them. If they don't hire, you have no way of knowing if those tests were the reason they did not hire you.
What scares me is what I see comming down the pike. An America with limited jobs, most low paying, and all requiring going through databases to see everything about your life. Unlike in the 60's when anyone could get a job anywhere making good money, today it is hard to find a good job. Companies like Motorola lay off 11,000 people over three years, and then give their CEO a million dollar bonus. Sun Microsystems asked the government for permission
Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."
just the middle finger?
loyalty above all, save honor
Place your index finger on that pad please sir.. BEEP! Im sorry sir it says here you stole a bag of Doritos when you were 13 im afraid I cant let you in, next please. Oh hello Mr Atta, welcome to Disney Land.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
How do you tell apart the finger prints of Mickey's and Minnie's?
To me there are several questions which should be asked of any biometric system.
- Do you know what information is being recorded?
- Do you know who can use that information?
- Do you have the ability to decline?
If neither 1) or 2) is satisfied then there are significant problems for liberty.Consider the case of entering a private space, in entering that space you are making a contract with the owner. Part of that contract involves their use of biometric information about you. I believe you should have the right to know how that information is used. In particular: is their covert survelance - hidden cameras? Which third parties have access (could images of you be sold to private investigators etc)? At the very least there MUST be a sign informing you and a contact number for more information.
Whether you can decline is a simple matter for a private space: you simple do not go in. It is a tougher problem in public space or when not entering deprives you of a fundamental liberty (say preventing you from getting medical treatment). Just as there should be prevision for wheelchair there should also be provision for those who decline.
For public spaces there is also essentially a contract with you and the government. This is where the moral arguments come in.
There are four sorts of people in the world: fools, lunatics, idiots and morons. - Umberto Eco, Foucaut's pendulum.
Does anyone know if this is also being done in Eurodisney near Paris?
That's what it is really. It's intended to scare off kids and parents who have a cunning plan to misuse the tickets.
I can understand Disney having your name and address for annual or season ticket holders, since they probably send them to you in the mail. But, if you show up at the park one day and want to buy tickets and pay in cash, do they specifically ask you for personal information?
If not, who cares if they take finger prints, retina scans or probe every orafice of your body...they have no personal information to tie it to, so they have no clue who the scans belong to.
Now, if they do require personal information for a cash purchase of one day or one week tickets....that's a different story.
Let's go and fuck it up.
Just say NO!
You don't have to buy their f*cking tickets. Do the same with the RIAA and the MPAA too.
Buy a harmonica for $5 and make your own music or go to the public library instead.
It's just all trash designed to sell you more trash.
Don't let them own you.
BTW, as a former Disney "Cast Member", I had to do the finger scan thing as well whenever I used my "main gate pass" to visit Disney World outside of my work duties.
I'm guessing Disney is using a similar system. Matching fingerprints seems more difficult to me.
You make some good points. A few things I wanted to comment on:
> Disney is not a part of your government. They are free to exist as a theme park, just as Six Flags and
> Alton Towers (in the UK) are.
Very true.
> They are entitled to set whichever requirements they like for you to enter their park.
Almost. Any legal entity, human or corporate, under most British Common-Law type legal systems, have a great deal of autonomy in their business practices, as long as those practices are not illegal -or- determined to be contrary to the overall public interest.
For instance, actions which are perfectly legal for a corporate entity may be held to be anti-competitive or monopolistic if that company controls a large enough part of a limited market.
And some things are contrary to the public interest by their nature, such as indentured servitude. In the US, certain types of non-compete employment contracts are illegal for this reason.
In the case of the season passes, Disney has (arguably) a legitimate interest in verifying the identity of the user. For day passes, this doesn't seem to be the case.
As some have noted, since they are not retaining fingerprint information, but rather the hand geometry, there is no apparent collection of persistent personal information. That said, this is a gray area of public policy. I'd like to see some folks fight this in order to get some precedents on record regarding what is and is not legitimate.
While Disney aren't keeping personal data in this case, the general trend in the corporate world (in the US, anyway, and probably some, if not all European nations) is to gather data they have no business asking for in the first place.
> I believe in monopoly regulation, so as long as Disney is not the ONLY theme park available (and
> Windows isn't the only usable OS), they are free to set their own rules, on their own property.
Ehh, not entirely agreed. Disney may not be an actual monopoly, but they are at least a -local- de facto monopoly. And as I mentioned earlier, there is the public policy issue.
> I also believe, however, that they must disclose what they will be doing with any information they
> collect, so that you can be informed in your decision to surrender or not surrender your finger-scans and such.
Very true. I'd really like to see a blanket ruling that private corporations are prohibited from collecting any kind of personal information or identifying data without prior informed disclosure.
The reality is that for non-season-ticket pass holders, this is excessive; like a thirty page license agreement for a $20 piece of software. For a new car, sure; for a basic commonplace transaction, hell no.
> You see what I mean? Right now, you can always take the kids to Six Flags if you don't like
> Disney's rules. You can always petition Disney to change as well.
Agreed that this is probably the best way to change it. I'd still like to see a legal precedent set, though. Just enough to shift the burden of justifying these little indignities. Currently, the corporation just does it; consumers need to justify withholding the data. I'd like to see it reversed. If consumers were legally entitled to withhold the data unless the company demonstrated a compelling need, it would slow down the flood of these idiotic ideas.
What if a double upper-limb amputee buys a season ticket? What about a paralytic? Do Goofy and Mickey lift the guy's hands and stick them into the scanner?
Ignorance is curable, stupid is forever.
"The collecting of this fingertip information and how it is to be used and what the source of that information is as it relates to what it will show."
Wha?? *head pops*
"The need to build the internet comes from something inside us, something programmed... something we can't resist."
The line between business and government gets more blurry every day. Consider the recent SCOTUS ruling that cities can exercise emminent domain and seize private property from one private citizen/entity and give it to another private citizen/entity in the name of commerce.
Big government IS big business, and vice-versa.
Ignorance is curable, stupid is forever.
What if they required that you stand naked in front of a camera for full frontal photographs, in order to enter? Anyone between the ages of 16 and 65 have to be photographed nude to enter... after all, its their park adn their rules, right?
Wrong. What if they required your social security number, home address and credit card number before allowing entry?
Ok, so it would be ok for me to fill in my fingerprints with some gel and putty on that day then, right? Since they're checking "geometry" and not the actual fingerprints, they shouldn't have a problem with this, right?
Wrong. They're using two fingers and not to check the geometry of the hand.
What if it was a blood sample? What if it was more than that? How intrusive does it have to get to be admitted in there. We're PAYING them for their service, and when we leave, the services are terminated.
Can I guarantee that when I leave, all of my personal information collected is permanently destroyed? No, I very much doubt it.
They should place a voluntary fingerprint reader at the ghost house. I heard that biometric data can be used to reduce terror.
You are missing the point. The question here is not if they are allowed to collect your fingerprints. A ticket to Disney world is not like opening a bank account or traveling across state lines. it's a luxury. Disney is a private company and you do not have to buy a ticket. You should be more worried that the US government is about to require fingerprints for the other things I mentioned above. See the Real ID Act.
The question here is what did I buy when I purchased a ticket? Did I purchase the right for a single person to be in the park at any given time? That is accomplished by requiring a ticket for admission. Or, as they are implying, did I purchase the right for only myself to be in the park? If I purchase a multi day pass and cannot use it all of the days. Disney would have me trhow it away? I purchased an admission. I should be able to give it to my friend and have him use it if I can't.
Also it's not
"Your DNA Belongs To Us"
It's
"All your DNA Are Belong To Us"
While they are a private business and can *ask* for anything they wish for entry, this goes too far.
This is a damned THEME PARK.. not some government installation.
The are nuts. I know where i WONT be going to take my kids during the summer.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't watching you.
K.
Remember SLAVES are the ones, who despite the clear intent of the Declaration of Independence, State Constitutions and State Law believe that Corporations have "Rights".
They don't. And it's an INSULT to us REAL FREE PEOPLE who know better.
For instance, OUR rights come from OUR creator, and since OUR creator is omnipotent, our rights are inalienable.
A SLAVE or CORPORATION is different. They don't HAVE Rights. Just priviledges. The difference is that their Rights have been given up for special status, such as tax breaks, or limits on liability.
But a CORPORATION's creator is The State, and since The State cannot require you to give up your prints, HOW can they confer that priviledge upon their creation?
They can't. You've been lied to, and have internalized the Slave-Speak.
At least OUR children are and will remain free.
Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
I work for Disney World IT - here's the non "We're local news so let's see how sensationalist we can make this" story.
The scanners have been used for years (at least for the past six that I remember) for Annual Pass holders, for maybe two years for people who work there, and just recently was expanded to have everyone use it with the introduction of the "Magic Your Way" tickets. It's old technology, and simply looks at the top of fingers for hand geometry, then stores a hash with that unique ticket ID (which comes from the magnetic stripe on the card). The data is stored only until the ticket expires. Anyone who's actually seen the scanners in real life can confirm that there's simply a flat retro-reflective surface that you place your fingers on so the imager above can get a good view of the hand shape.
The system is used to prevent swapping of tickets between people, simply as a replacement for showing some sort of photo-id with your name on it. You don't have to use it - just ask to show a photo ID that matches the name on your ticket instead. The acceptable margin of error is turned very wide in order to keep the system running quickly - maybe 10 out of 100 people could pass as you.
The reason that this hit the news is because the system has been expanded (starting around January, I think) so that now everyone uses it. The reasoning behind this (pushed by finance) is that there's a real problem with people buying and selling multi-day tickets that have unused days on them on eBay and those discount ticket stalls you see in Kissimmee and on I-Drive. The only way to check how many days are left on a pass is to scan it on a reader attached to the Disney ticket system - which only exist on Disney property. People were getting ripped off, buying tickets that the seller swore had days on them, only to find that they've got a useless piece of paper.
Oh, and to those who worry that Disney would use this data to somehow track or follow or gather more data about folks - Disney's like any other big company. Different departments don't talk to each other enough and like to keep their dealings to themselves. I'm not sure ticketing, operations, IE, and finance could actually get their heads together enough to do something evil like everyone's ranting about. I've been in meetings with these folks, they know that if they were actually doing the "evil" things that everyone was ranting about, it wouldn't fly.
"where the frack are you supposed to take your business to when you have a governement protected never expiring monopoly ?"
I think the spirit of the foundation of this government is that when things get this bad, you are supposed to take your business, your life, and everything else you can muster, and do your damndest to end the tyranny. Once it's tyranny, it's a life-and-death problem, and transcends any value of the profitability of your business or even your life.
Don't have the influence needed to persuade tens of millions of others to join in your revolution? Maybe that's a sign that the problems are not yet to the "intolerable tyranny, life-and-death matter", level.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
Isn't it amazing how many other people think they own the results of your own efforts?
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
This is probably the best breakdown of the situation that has been posted.
Actually, those scanners scan the fingerprint-like pattern *BETWEEN* your index and middle finger. Take a look, those patterns there are unique to everyone just like the fingertip finger prints.
And these actually do scan and compare to a database. They've been doing this since the late 80's, because this was how you got the Lifetime Pass. You didn't bring any ticket or anything if you had the Lifetime Pass, just got your finger between-area scanned. They stopped selling the Lifetime Pass in the mid-90's and so these machines started to get little to no use (since the Lifetime Pass was applied to your body, basically, you couldn't sell it to someone else).
So these new methods are just to give these dormant machines a new use. While they do scan your between-area on your hand, I do not think it actually matters. It's just there to make people feel secure I think. I just went to the park earlier this year and sometimes they scanned my finger area, sometimes they didn't and the computerized gates let me in anyway.
The idea that they scan the length of your fingers/hand is ridiculous because Disney World gets plenty of people who are growing (kids, teens). Since you can use a pass within a year of buying it, you can visit one day and then visit again two weeks later and it's possible your fingers have grown, if you're a child or teen.
The "everyone's collecting personal data against our will" conspiracy nazis can safely back off this one.
> there's a real problem with people buying and
> selling multi-day tickets that have unused days
> on them
Take a look at this article on Slashdot today. Maybe you should adjust your licensing model instead of calling your customers thieves.
Ever think this "real problem" is really just a large corporation trying to force people to waste their unused days ?
When a horrible reason is behind a horrible idea, it's time to run. Run far away.
Regards, Lex
What is so wrong about fingerprinting? It has been done to criminals, then potential terrorists/tourists and now to visitors of Disney. Your bank may also ask you for your fingerprints. So why complain, everybody is doing it. It always has been a normal procedure. This is just how Westworld works. And why not make the next step to Futureworld? Criminals' DNA is already taken and stored. Nothing wrong with that. Who knows what all those invading aliens may hide. What's next?
Nor, it seems, can you spell.
Nor, it seems, would you know sarcasm if it came up behind you and bit you in the ass.
No state has the the resources to do it efficiently. But plenty of states have enough resources to make life miserable for a whole bunch of people who irritate the authorities in one way or another. Or haven't you heard about material witness arrests?
You should go read your history of (for example) East Germany. The Stasi there had a pretty good system for keeping tabs on people. You had to watch your mouth pretty closely from 1933 to 1989. Or maybe you don't care what's happening in America, and are happy that a bunch of "stinkingliberalcommiefagatheists" get locked up at random.
One day the Replicans won't be in power. Do you think the Democrats are going to dismantle all those nice mechanisms for suppressing dissent? You think they won't be using material witness arrests when coming after anti-abortionists? When the boot is on the other foot it's still going to be people with unorthodox opinions that get a kicking. The orthodoxy will change, but the kicking will continue.
K.
Like, say, putting your picture on the pass.
----
All of whose base are belong to the what-now?
It's not as though building and using fake body parts is easy, easpically for good scanners. It's still one more step someone has to take. It's also not like all theives have a mental connection via TheifNet(tm) to each other or something. If a person finds out and duplicates the biometrics being used to authenticate you, and they get caught, they get thrown in jail and the fakes destroyed. Also then hopefully you look in to modifying the scanners to reject such fakes in the future.
Just because a lock can be picked (and they can all be picked) doesn't mean it's worthless, nor just because biometrics can in theory be duplicated doesn't make them worthless.
Also, you can take proactive measures if you find someone's biometrics have been compramised. Say there's unauthorized lab access, and it requires a fingerprint and code. However you know for a fact the owner of said fingerprint didn't do it. Ok, so change the code, then setup the old code to allow entry, but set off alarms with security. Theif comes in, gets busted.
I fear so, my friend, I fear so. If not today then it'll be here tomorrow.
How many beans make five, anyhow ?
Since I used to work there...I should know. They don't take fingerprints. They take measurements of the bones in your fingers and how they're spaced etc.
/. The technology has been in place and has been used for years.
This is such old news I really don't know why it's on
And, my 0.02 on the privacy issue is: Are people really SO uptight that they're scared of someone knowing what one of the finger's bones looks like? Maybe you'd prefer something less pervasive...like the new face scanners? Or...is your face private too? Put the bag over your head.
Here's the thing with biometrics. They're the best that computer's can do. Humans can look at each other and instantly identify someone we know. But, since you can't expect every Cast Member to know every guest, there has to be a system. It's really that simple. Why is it that as soon as a computer attempts to mimic what human's do so well people are in a uproar.
So, to all of you that don't like getting your finger bones measured, wear gloves. You never know...you might be walking down the street and someone might see or even look at your hand!
*insert fake spooky music here*
</rant>
Blog: orange haired boy
I'd like to google those.
"He's a real midnight golfer"
Please note that smoking is not allowed in Tomorrowland.
Disneyland closes tonight at 9pm. For your convenience, the Main Street shops will remain open for another hour. Guests with our sign-of-the-beauty-and-the-beast implants receive a five percent discount!
Assume I was drunk when I posted this.
I feel compelled to clear a few things up, having read the relevant articles and making some assumptions based on my knowledge of security technology.
The scanners at D-world are NOT, at this time, full fingerprint scanners. If they were, they would not need two fingers, only one, and the process would only take a second or two for each person (I know this -- I've been digitally fingerprinted due to the fact that I work for a law-enforcement agency).
They are, I believe, GEOMETRY scanners which map the approximate shape of two specific fingers, turn them into data points, and associate them with the record of the passholder or patron entering the park. The San Francisco Airport (and other airports) have been using full-hand geometry scanners for decades to do access control; This application appears to be a simplified version of the same thing.
Now, with that said, I do have some thoughts on the issue. On the one wing, Disney parks are, in fact, private property. They belong to a specific corporation. Said corporation does indeed have the right to install any means of access control for their parks that they want to.
On the other wing, and as others have pointed out, this sets a rotten precedent. It would not take much, in the way of hardware and software modification, for this system to be able to record full fingerprints. The scary part is that it could be done transparently, without the visitor even realizing that a lot more data points are being recorded and stored.
This raises the question of how Disney is storing the data, what OTHER data they're associating with the scan, how LONG they're storing it, WHO has access to it, and WHAT they ultimately plan to do with it. If it's strictly an admission-control thing, fine. However, lacking further details, it seems to me that the door is wide open for abuse.
This also raises the question of 'Does it make the park less susceptible to terrorist attack?' The answer is 'of course not!' Anyone who is truly determined to cause harm and mayhem at a theme park will find a way to do so that does not involve getting their hand scanned, or leaving much of any other identity traces.
If I invoke my ultra-paranoid side, and put on my tinfoil hat, I can see another possible scenario. Homeland Security or whoever wants as much data as can be gained on the general population. What better way to gather a whole stack of fingerprints than to let someone else pay for the hardware and software, and then simply pay that someone else (Disney, in this case) under-the-table for copies of the records?
Granted, that's probably a pretty silly idea, but see what happens when I let my imagination off the leash for a bit?
FWIW: I've heard that Universal Studios and Sea World Orlando are going to be deploying similar (if not identical) technology for their gates. As if I needed another reason not to visit either park ever again, especially after that horrible travesty of a whale show...
Keep the peace(es).
Bruce Lane, KC7GR,
Blue Feather Technologies
Mickey Mouse is a fucking COMMI. Now I have proof.
I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!