Slashdot Mirror
Secretaries Sacked After Flamewar at Work
ross.w writes "Two legal secretaries in Sydney have been sacked after a flamewar over a ham sandwich got circulated throughout the cities financial district. The insults about figures, boyfriends and jobs flew thick and fast and ultimately resulted in the dismissal of both of them for mis-use of the email system."
The spokesman said he still did not know whether or not Ms Nugent's lunch was stolen.
Rumor has it that Nugent's lunch was stolen by her ex-boyfriend who is now with Bird.
Warning: Do not pass this on.
Regardless, the person who forwarded these emails to external parties should be fired because company emails shouldn't be forwarded to unintended recipients without original author's consent.
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
That's exactly why you use personal email for personal things...
That must have been quite a flame war to be reported on dozens of news sites and finally Slashdot. I hope nobody was killed over it.
Though they were fired over email, I doubt this is material worthy of the "Your Rights Online" section. They were both in the same office, cursing each other during work hours, except via email rather than verbally. Then they forwarded the emails to the rest of the office to get everyone involved, rather than working like their supposed to.
I have all my email forwarded to a gmail account. If I get something personal that I wouldn't want anyone to know about or something sketchy at work, I reply from gmail.
Wow, IANAL but I'm surprised that you can be sacked for something that tame. Still, the old adage applies - never write something on an email that you wouldn't put on a postcard.
Maybe the economy would be a little better if businesses would focus on business instead of finding new and interesting ways of scanning and banning personal Internet use (or a dozen other irrelevant employee-control functions that cost money and time without producing product...)
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
-- Dr. Spock, stardate 2822-3.
BANNED!!! OLOLO
Are either of them hot, or possibly both of them?
That would make my day (night)
Ham!
Sorry, couldn't resist.
While cleaning the nineteenth floor, I noticed the fridge had been left open. Naturally I threw out all the spoiled contents. I hope I didn't cause too much trouble.
Really reinforces why my girlfriend and the other women in my life prefer a male-dominated office to a female-dominated office. Hell, my mom won't work for another woman again unless either she knows her well or hell freezes over thanks to the last time...
Click here or a puppy gets stomped!
This is how National Lampoon would classify it (in it's "true section on the level")...
I put on my robe and wizard hat.
Jesus saved me from my past. He can save you as well.
News At 10... behaving poorly at work can get you fired!!! We must fight for our right to get paid to think of rude, yet clever insults of our fellow coworkers!
<delzi> Arguing in the internet is like running in the special olympics, even if you win you are still retarted.
"What does slashdotting mean?"
"You've never heard of slashdot?"
"I know it makes websites not work."
I used to work with two Japanese coworkers who had an email spat. They sat next to each other, but one day they had a heated debate. After that finished, they stopped all verbal communication and started sending nasty emails to each other... despite sitting only a meter apart.
READY.
PRINT ""+-0
News from Fark. Stuff that doesn't matter.
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
none needed.
Does anyone have a copy of this transaction? I'm looking for some good humor tonight, and this just might fit the bill. :)
Hero of Allacrost, a FOSS RPG for *NIX/*BSD/OS X/Win
I want the latest mail, with headers!
This [image] was as close as I could find...
Since this stupid story was just inside at the front of the paper today, I might as well transcribe the transcript for you all...
Katrina Nugent
Yesterday I put my lunch in the fridge on Level 19 which included a packet of ham, some cheese slices and two slices of bread which was going to be for my lunch today.
Over night it has gone missing and as I have no spare money to buy another lunch today, I would appreciate being reimbursed for it.
Melinda Bird
Katrina, There are items fitting your exact description in the level 20 fridge. Are you sure you didn't place your lunch in the wrong fridge yesterday?
Katrina Nugent
Melinda, probably best you don't reply to all next time, would be annoyed to the lawyers.
The kitchen was not doing dinner last night, so obviously someone has helped themselves to my lunch. Really sweet of you to investigate for me!
Melinda Bird
Katrina, since I used to be a float and am still on the level 19 email list I couldn't help but receive your rediculous email - lucky me!
You use our kitchen all the time for some unknown reason and I saw the items you mentioned in the fridge so naturally thought you may have placed them in the wrong fridge.
Thanks I know I'm sweet but I only had your best interests at heart. Now as you would say, "BYE"!
Katrina Nugent
I'm not blonde!!!
Melinda Bird
Being a brunette doesn't mean you're smart though!
Katrina Nugent
I definitely wouldn't trade places with you for "the world"!
Melinda Bird
I wouldn't trade places with you for the world...I don't want your figure!
Katrina Nugent
Let's not get person (sic) "Miss Can't Keep A Boyfriend".
I am in a happy relationship, have a beautiful apartment, brand new car, high pay job...say no more!!
Melinda Bird
Oh my God I'm laughing! happy relationship (you have been with so many guys), beautiful apartment (so what), brand new care (me too), high pay job (I earn more)....say plenty more.....
I have 5 guys at the moment!
haha.
Its stories like this that dare me to troll. I literally thought that I was reading an Onion spoof...
Its even worse that this is presented as "big news", when the true banality of this revelation is oft-repeated throughout the world every day, without the use of anything "high tech" as *email* :
"Two Co-Workers Get in Office Scrap. Both Now Neither Co nor Worker."
"Senior Accountant Fired After Overheard Making Fun of Boss at Office Party"
"Sales Engineer Canned For Slander After Voicemail of Supervisor Fails To Hang Up"
"Employee Gets Drunk. Employee Shoots Mouth Off. Employee Now Ex-Employee."
Yawn...
I knew a better link was sure to be found. And dammit, now I'm hungry...
the ensuing " Two Linux Engineers were fired for having a public kde-gnome e-mail flamewar"..
I still wonder why it has never happens over the years?
Timang tinggi tinggi
parang sudah asah
alang alang mandi
biar sampai basah
[EOM]
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
OK, who is going to post the text of the flamewar?
The company could have used this as a viral marketing tool to their advantage - or sold it to some entertainment company (new reality show, with an email component?). It clearly caught the interest and attention of many people.
Can You Say Linux? I Knew That You Could.
I once worked in a department that was all guys when I sent out an email asking if anyone had any althete's feet cream since I was having problem. Not only did that provoked a spirited round of emails during the lunch break on how I grossed everyone out, I got sent to the HR office for creating a disturbance. With foot on desk (which did gross out the HR rep), I pointed out that I had a medical problem and that none of the First Aid kits had any kind of cream or bandages. HR sent my manager to the store to get what I needed and he apologized for sending me to HR. Though they never did replace the First Aid kits.
does anyone else realize that the only reason this is news is because some schmoe was searching online for "katrina" and came across this pointless story?
This isn't news. Two secretaries got into a personal fight and were fired over it. The fact that it happened over email is irrelevant. When did slashdot become the gossip section of the internet?
AccountKiller
Someone is going to find the sandwhich in some refrigerator, and it's going to be great.
XaNk: now I remember why I hated the girls in high school
XaNk: because none of them would talk to me
The exchange is not especially funny; mostly silly.
But I'm surprised they got sacked over THAT. Why couldn't their manager just have a serious talk with them? Couldn't that have cleared any problem?
If having this exchange is improper, then what about the guys that sent it to rival law firms? Isn't that more improper? Were they sacked? Why not?
Is this an example of sexism?
)9TSS
Probably the best e-mail exchange ever:
http://www.harpers.org/DontHaveACowMan.html
From an exchange of emails in fall 2001 between Judd Apatow, the creator of the sitcoms Freaks and Geeks and Undeclared and a successful writer of Hollywood screenplays, and Mark Brazill, the creator of That '70s Show. Topher Grace is one of the stars of That '70s Show. Originally from Harper's Magazine, March 2002.
"show me all the blueprint show me all the blueprint show me all the blueprints"
Hard to believe that any company would fire anyone over that. Either there is something more to the story (e.g., they were looking for a reason to fire one or both of them anyways) or I think the manager who fired them has his/her head up his/her head up their ass.
Hardly. More like embarrassing themselves completely. How pathetic.
Not only is that the lamest, most pitiful flamewar I've ever seen, but shouldn't legal secretaries, of all people, use good grammar?! Even people on Slashdot are more literate!
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
I do service calls for PC and network tech support in my home city, and just last week I was at ground-zero when a fist-fight broke out between two secretaries. I tried to get the hell out of there, but still had to stick around as the police gathered statements. It was worth it, though, as I did get the joy of seeing the one that started it all get cuffed and dragged off to jail.
"Sometimes you have fun, and sometimes the fun has you"
See its crap like this...that's making womens' mud wrestling redundant...
email flamewars!!?? Puuhh leezz!!
Sig Under Construction
This is the kind of shit that happens when people hide behind e-mail instead of working out issues face to face. The tone of someones e-mail is too easily misinterpreted. And no I didn't RTFA!
Seriously, are we supposed to care? and since when does a story about a ham sandwhich getting stolen makes headlines on Slashdot? How did this get posted to the main page, but my stories usually get rejected?
You were fervently aligned.
You were fast.
You are dead.
music lover since 1969
yeah right
I find this quote very meaningful. It has more punch when it is pictorially represented, like this one.
w00t
Email is a business tool, it is not a personal messaging system
News to me
You really should get out more.
http://www.sydney-webcam.com
Oh my. (1) I asked for you to not fill in the missing ones and most importantly (2) That's the lame joke in the post to which I replied. Except that moron got it (closer to) right. It's Soviet Russia and it's just not funny anymore. Do you even know where that comes from? Is that idiot comedian even still alive? Sigh.
everything in moderation
The names in one sound made-up, too.
I wonder if this is an urban legend?
In Soviet Russia, dead horse beats YOU!
>Regardless, the person who forwarded these emails to external parties should be fired because company emails shouldn't be forwarded to unintended recipients without original author's consent.
Why? Was that in the company's acceptable use policy (AUP)? NO?
Many companies have yet to effectively leverage the online employee comportment solutions that are available in the idea marketplace. In the online world, synergies for mitigation of "water cooler" discussions can be harnessed LIKE NEVER BEFORE!
Does your company's AUP need dusting off? Is the disused lavatory that houses the locked Employee Manual filing cabinet just not recieving the foot traffic it deserves because the door is missing its 'Beware of the Leopard' sign? ACT NOW!
Check out some of the quality AUP elements that are at work on my own personal mailbox sender storage space use policy:
- Senders must grant unlimited reproduction, modification, and distrubution of their message contents
- Senders agree to have all AUP-related feedback handled by the on-line erectile disfunction medication retailer that I've received the most spam from this week (currently instant-pharmacy.net, in case you're interested)
Remember: It's quality outsourcing possibilities like these that let me keep my service levels up! Imagine how dissappointed I would be if my customer service workload made me LOSE OUT on the EXCELLENT FREE KARMA available by forwarding little Johnny's request for postcards out to 20 of my BESTEST FRIENDS (who judging by my inbox contents are all direct e-mail marketers)! Now that would just be plain sad.
(Apologies to the late Mr. Adams for blatant fair use of the leopard bit.)
-aT
How about changing the YRO category to something more describing it's actual contents? Like Your Brain Matter Leaking Online? Is the editor saying the two women got fired and it violated their rights? How? Or my rights? How? I am confused here. How about thet Big Brother thing. Now there's a violation of people's rights... Oh yeah and that Ipod Nano totally violates my rights as I don't yet have one.
Me Too!
No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow. - Cmdr. Susan Ivanova
Shit... Lost all the formatting.. Use this link instead http://members.iinet.net.au/~codebasher/rofl.htm
..the secretaries were sacked, or the lunch was sacked?
Now, 15 years older, I find myself in a male only IT dept and long for: 1. that old work envrionment, 2. the knowledge of the "fairer-sex" that I have gained in the 15 years since, and 3. To be 19 again!
Mongrel News all the news that fits and froths
http://members.iinet.net.au/~codebasher/rofl.htm
News Ltd affiliates (tabloid bog paper) came out a day later with a full page story, photos, names.
The spirit of Fleet Street is alive and well and living in Sydney.
Mongrel News all the news that fits and froths
flat-out unintelligable gibberish
Spelling is the least of thier problems
I would go so far (as) to say that
Infuriate left and right
Maybe the real reason they got fired was that they were behaving like children, and the abuse of the email system thing was just a convenient excuse.
Furry cows moo and decompress.
If you were wondering what these two felines looked like... Here are their pics:
http://firepacket.net/mirror/flamewar.html
I don't understand manager's fascination with firing people. It doesn't make any sense, it's like cutting off your hand when it tickles.
Isn't there any other way to teach these women a lesson? Make them work without lunch for a week. Don't give them a bonus. Reprimand them. But firing? Do the managers expect a random new hire to work better than these experienced (though easily excitable) employees? If yes, why haven't these two been fired years ago? If no, why do managers waste company's money while trying to save face in some idiotic way?
Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
...what is she doing with five guys at that exact moment that requires being near a computer on the Internet? Or is there more to her Internet habit than we're being told?
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Yep - That's the Australia I remember.
you had me at #!
Poland?
Get your Unix fortune now!
because he didn't get it in the first place
because he did it wrong
because you asked him not to do it
c'mon. it was so stupid i had to laugh.
sum.zero
Somebody shoot parent with a shot of IQ please. We yet may be able to counter the effects of stupidity!
I've heard that their periods attract bears...
The bears can smell the menstration!
Or maybe the point of the joke is that law firms really are lousy places to work? I'd heard rumors to that effect, though my own brief experiences weren't so bad (in days of yore when I sometimes worked as a temporary word processor specialist).
Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
wrong, only law abiding people handed in their guns. how much you bet i could go down to the local pub make some inquires wave $500 around and buy myself a nice AK47 with enough ammo to make the cops duck for a few hours. australia has this habit of making retarded laws banning things in instances where it's totally impractical.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
Two legal secretaries in Sydney have been sacked after a flamewar over a ham sandwich
I know I'm showing my American here but the first thing I thought of was that commercial where the football player flat out tackles people in the office over TPS reports and whatnot... Reguardless, it was funnier when I thought people were being mowed down like quarterbacks.
Guns aren't "banned" in Australia. They're merely not as easy to get as they are in some other countries - and it's highly doubtful the knee-jerk response to Port Arthur has made this country any safer.
Some of the problems in America could not happen in Australia as a result. (Oops probably a flamewar in the making)
They're probably less likely to happen - but it's got nothing to do with guns and everything to do with culture and society. The plethora of examples of countries with high gun ownership rates and low[er] gun crime rates (and vice versa) demonstrate quite plainly that it's got nothing to do with guns, and everything to do with people. As was handily demonstrated by the recent anarchy and violence after Katrina hit.
America is simply a violent culture. If they weren't shooting each other, they'd be stabbing and bludgeoning each other. The problem isn't mechanical, it's social (just to keep those flames burning)...
http://www.melindabird.com/
The emails seemed friendly enough until this bit:
Elizabeth: Thanks I know I'm sweet and I only had your best interests at heart. Now as you would say, "BYE"!
Regina: I'm not blonde!!!
Then it just got wierd, and kind of lame.
There must have been some really odd past personal history behind this where *BYE* gets you a response of "I'm not blonde!!!"... and then the other person takes that as a personal barb (even if they are blonde).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
... due to the flames.
Who would have thought!
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
How much do you want to bet the cops would pick you up before you got the gun?
'There is a Light that never goes out.'
I dunno about poised and stately.
Most guys aren't that interested in clothes or other stuff in department stores. Not enough to draw blood anyway...
Maybe if it were some other stuff say a BMW at 90% off, then you'd see some kicking and shoving. But clothing? Shirts or trousers? Nah...
Also most guys know that there's a significant chance that the other guy would kill or severely harm you if you really piss them off. "Damn the consequences" is a common guy thing - just look at the newspapers of people killing and being killed. Mostly guys involved.
So for guys, shoving around other guys is a bad idea.
Ladies/girls often get away with shoving/smacking guys. We tend to be more bemused or sometimes even amused when that happens.
"You've got nailed!"
Libertas in infinitum
In that case there's a problem with the gun culture. I think strict gun laws can help change the culture in the long run. It's impractical in the short run, but that doesn't necessarily make the law bad.
True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
I agree, this is pretty stupid.
Stupid doesn't begin to describe it. Try pathetic. They wouldn't last 30 seconds on alt.flame.flame.flame.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
so im one of Melinda's 5 boyfriends...F**K!..she's a cheater!
"George Bush is responsible somehow."
That's what the Commie / Greenie / Hippy / Unwashed / Socialist / Liberal / Lesbian / Girly men at the NYT want you to think.
******>> Puts on tinfoil hat and sticks toy US flag ontop of the monitor.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Dominic Knight, from the Chaser Magazine, is the source? Guys, this magazine is sortof like The Onion. Add to that this info is coming from an email he happened to get forwarded... April came early this year. Though I'm sure there are people who know people who know the people involved...
usuall takes me at least 2 lobster dinners and a flower delivery
did any of the emails contain Natalie Portman and grits?
Someone could have been offended by it and threw it away. There is case of some company in Florida banning pork products because it offended some employees religion. Someone got in trouble there over bringing a ham sandwich to work.
.. is dangerous and should only be attempted by qualified zoo-keepers.
(Flame)war was beginning. Brunette: What happen? Blonde: We get signal. Brunette: What ! Blonde: Microsoft Outlook turn on. Brunette: It's You !! Boss: How are you women !! Boss: All your jobs are belong to us. Boss: You are on the way to destruction. Brunette: What you say !! Boss: You have no chance to survive make your office empty. Boss: HA HA HA HA ....
Brunette: Take off every 'email' !!
Brunette: You know what you doing.
Brunette: Move 'email'.
Brunette: For great justice.
(Okay, I could have done better, don't mod me down for rushing :))
Linux Engineers have flamewars about vi vs. emacs.
Slashdot trolls have flamewars about Gnome vs. Kde.
In my opinion, Scientology is a cult you should avoid.
This pic is less blurry.
Think about it without the "topquoting if for losers and idiots" blocks...
Most likely, those people know what you wrote them, so they only need to read your answer.
But in case there is any uncertaincy, the original follows so one can queck is.
OTOH, bottom quoting would require to check all references that are send with the email before even getting to the point...
(and PLEASE dont while about "wasted bandwith". A single movie download will need more bandwith than i will ever use for writing emails...)
HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
But what are you going to do when the molemen from Venus attack??? Who'll be laughing then? AMERICA...then quite likely get blown up by a trigger-happy cowboy with nukes...but what the hell.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Maybe that's what the guy in the article who said "Email is a business tool, not a personal messaging system" meant, but that particular sentence is totally false. Email is a set of network protocols that can be used for whatever. What is acceptable usage needs to be explicitly defined in company policy.
Even it is true enough that these secreteries misused the E-Mail system. However, I get the feeling they were not fired for that. They were fired for the fact that the correspontence became public and their employer was embarrassed. I rather doubt they sent this to rival firms them selves let alone the entire city of Sydney so I still say the secretaries should have been reprimanded, severely repremanded, and the pinkslip should have been reserved for the moron who made company E-Mail coresspondence public property. I get the feeling that if this flame war had not been leaked a reprimand is all these women would have gotten.
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
Ok so I hafta ask, proving that I am a n00b. Where does this sentence come from? What's the source?
My Favourite Meme
In the company where I work, there are a couple standard things that happen when someone's offcially getting chewed out over e-mail. One of them is that an e-mail asking for a correction or an explanation is sent out, and openly cc:-ed to the department heads of the involved parties, as well as the general manager and HR. This is not a subtle hint. I have never actually seen the results of someone ignoring a "suggestion" like that, but I would imagine that they are not pretty, and could involve some pretty stringent disciplinary proceedings.
If their HR department got not only a barrage of catfighting e-mails, but a corresponding exponential pile of politely-worded carbon copies essentially telling the ladies (and I use the term loosely) that no one but them cares about their disagreement, and to please work it out or at least make it private, I'd bet that's one pissed-off HR department.
Even with an arithmatic series, the load on HR could be impressive. Say the first mass e-mail generated 5 STFU mails, the second one generated 10, the 3rd one generated 15, and so on. By the 10th exchange, HR has a couple hundred complaints to wade through, and is wondering why the merry fuck they did not stop spamming the whole damn office with this stupid shit that no one cares about. Even with a less enthusiastic response, they are bound to have gotten more than one complaint, probably at different points in the exchange. Any reasonably-intelligent user of an e-mail system should realize that when a personal exchange being broadcast to the entire company gets complaints, it's time to take it at least semi-private. Include HR and your supervisor and their supervisor if you must, if you think you're in the right or that doing this will cover your ass, but continuing to spam the entire company after that point is inexcusable.
Speaking as a supervisor who occasionally has to deal with repeated obnoxious behavior and verbal catfights and the like, I am far less inclined to be lenient when it's clear that someone knew that what they were doing was pissing people off and kept on doing it anyway. I expect that company's HR staff doesn't differ much on that account.
If either of them had a history of complaints with HR for forwarding idiotic jokes, urban legends, or bogus virus warnings, then their firing is not in any way a surprise.
"Guns aren't "banned" in Australia. They're merely not as easy to get as they are in some other countries"
Since you are from Oz I am probably not telling you anything you don't know already, but the truth is alot of firearms available in the US are "banned" over here. The gun in the GP post's quote, (from Fight Club IIRC), would be illegal and near impossible to obtain. Most people only have access to registered single shot rifles and "snap-load" shotguns, pistols must be kept in a secure armory at a registered gun club. Semi-auto rifles are a big no-no, getting caught with a machine-gun will give you your 15 minutes of fame in the media.
A few studies have been published showing the laws have made a slight improvement in the rate of shooting deaths but it's harder than you think to measure. Common-sense says a nut can no longer go hunting humans on a whim, the nuts now have to plan ahead, not to mention the extreme difficulty in finding the firearms and ammo on our island continent. Making it difficult for a nut to shoot multiple people in a short space of time is what the Port Aurthur laws were designed to accomplish and I think they have worked well.
"America is simply a violent culture. If they weren't shooting each other, they'd be stabbing and bludgeoning each other. The problem isn't mechanical, it's social"
I have to agree that gun control is largely a cultural thing, but not all of it. Mechanics can play a significant part in some common senarios. For example, statistically (in the US) shootings are roughly 5X more lethal than stabbings so more "heat of the moment" events (including suicide) end in death when there is a loaded gun in the top draw of the dresser. Those who survive a gun shot wound are 20X more likely to be permenantly disabled in some way compared to a stabbing victim. (Ref: old Scientific American magazine on my bookshelf).
I have lived in Oz for 40+ years and I think the Gun laws have kept pace with our culture over that time. I am usually the last to praise politicians but I think our Government has done a pretty good job at finding sensible bi-partisan compromises over the years. I can't walk into k-mart and buy ammo anymore but I can still go and shoot rabbits if I want to. I have nothing against responsible hunting and target sports, personally I just don't feel the young man's urge to blow furry things apart anymore, even if they are a tasty pest for the dog.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
This guy is from Venus?
Procrastination -- because good things come to those who wait.
You idiot.
Can someone please mod this down?
Serving Suggestion: Defrost
We all know vi is superiour.
^_^
Since they misused email as well, everyone who forwarded it along should have been fired.
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
It would be tempting to call these secretary's slow learners, but I can remember reading a slashdot article about men in an IT company plotting to take other personnel ( and customers ) with them to form their own breakaway company. They used company blackberries for these communications!
So, it isn't about being tech savvy, it is about common sense or the lack of it.
The secretaries were in the wrong, they got fired.
However, other people in the company, lawyers, were the ones who passed the email exchange onto people outside of the firm.
If you ask me they have equal responsibility in embarrassing the company and should get an equal penalty.
If they haven't my guess would be because they are more valuable to the company or the company is like most in being cowardly and does not want to risk firing lawyers.
These guys ( in addition to the secretarys ) should be ashamed of themselves.
Here are gun-related deaths per 100,000 people in the world's 36 richest countries in 1994:
United States 14.24;
Brazil 12.95;
Mexico 12.69;
Estonia 12.26;
Argentina 8.93;
Northern Ireland 6.63;
Finland 6.46;
Switzerland 5.31;
France 5.15;
Canada 4.31;
Norway 3.82;
Austria 3.70;
Portugal 3.20;
Israel 2.91;
Belgium 2.90;
Australia 2.65;
Slovenia 2.60;
Italy 2.44;
New Zealand 2.38;
Denmark 2.09;
Sweden 1.92;
Kuwait 1.84;
Greece 1.29;
Germany 1.24;
Hungary 1.11;
Republic of Ireland 0.97;
Spain 0.78;
Netherlands 0.70;
Scotland 0.54;
England and Wales 0.41;
Taiwan 0.37;
Singapore 0.21;
Mauritius 0.19;
Hong Kong 0.14;
South Korea 0.12;
Japan 0.05.
source
Supposedly from a Centre For Disease Control study conducted in 1998 based on 1994 data. I can't find the actual study on the CDC website, so take with a grain of salt.
-- The doctor said I wouldn't get so many nose bleeds if I just kept my finger out of there!
Murder Rate Per Capita (link).
The United States has 4 times as many intentional murders per 1000 people as Australia.
-- The doctor said I wouldn't get so many nose bleeds if I just kept my finger out of there!
got circulated throughout the cities financial district
:-D
UGH! I'd fire you for mis-use of the English grammatical system...
Good thing my e-mails aren't read in my company...
OMG, Is somebody REALLY selling this on EBAY ?
i tem=5614107916&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&rd =1
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&
Do you really believe that criminals in Austrailia don't have access to guns? Dream on.
Exam 4/C again. Maybe I'll do better this time.
Peterman: Well, I see what's going on in here. I am smack dab in the middle of a good old fashioned cat fight.
Elaine: Mr. Petermen, this is not a cat fight. This is violent psychotic behavior directed at me all because are told her to swing her arms.
Peterman: Woof!
Elaine: Do you mean "reer?"
Petermen: Yes, that's the one! Good day Elaine.
And...
Kramer: Cat fight?
Elaine: Ok, why? Why do guys do this? What is so appealing to men about a cat fight?
Kramer: Yeye cat fight!
Jerry: Because men think if women are grabbing and clawing at each other there's a chance they might somehow kiss.
Kramer: T-t-t-t...
What, me worry?
I'm curious which countries there are. Surely you aren't claiming that Afghanistan, Iraq, and Palestine have lower rates of gun-related crime than Australia?
It has nothing to do with the gun culture. It's about criminals. Since the laws were passed, those who chose not to comply are criminals. There are also those who get guns through other illegal means that are also criminals. I would think the ones who would sell guns illegally are more likely in the second group. I don't believe that failing to comply with a law that makes ones property illegal at the stroke of a pen means those people are just biding their time before they go on a killing spree.
So, if I understand correctly, the goal is to change the behavior of criminals through new laws? Perhaps I'm missing something, but I thought they were criminals because of their lack of respect for the law, not because there weren't enough laws. This solution seems impractical in the short run, and history doesn't show too much promise for the long run.
I would be more interested in knowing what short or long term social benefit was gained by making the first group of people criminals.
Moderators: this thread isn't offtopic, the topic is a flame war. =)
They're probably less likely to happen - but it's got nothing to do with guns and everything to do with culture and society. The plethora of examples of countries with high gun ownership rates and low[er] gun crime rates (and vice versa) demonstrate quite plainly that it's got nothing to do with guns, and everything to do with people.
Countries like, say, the U.S. ... until our enlightened, modern, gun regulating era. Hmm.
Whatever happened to a sane style of communicating with people over e-mail?
I remember times where people actually quoted relevant material from previous mails, trimmed down unnecessary garbage and answered questions *below* the question itself.
These days you need to sift through millions of lines of excessive "Original Message" quoting without any reference to the actual contents of previous messages. Sucky line breaks, HTML-crap, incoherent writing and idiotic bitmap smileys have made e-mail communication a Pain In The Ass, but certainly not an effective means of getting things done in a coherent fashion.
Thank god there are some lonely islands in usenet with old-fashioned people who take the three seconds to trim down excessive quoting, who put answers *after* the questions and who know how to use an editor to get a message across.
One of these days I am going to start a company that uses a newsserver as its main means of internal communication and I'll fire everyone who doesn't play by the rules of old style usenet posting.
Of course they got fired. That ham sandwich was INDICTED by the Grand Jury :)
Your sense of humour is so, so old
You must be new here...
Regardless, the person who forwarded these emails to external parties should be fired because company emails shouldn't be forwarded to unintended recipients without original author's consent.
The entire concept of considering all emails at work "business communications" is ridiculous. You ever say something personal to the person in the cubicle next door? Yeah? You ever use your PBX to talk to the person down the hall? Email is just the modern way of doing that.
Now, granted, they shouldn't have got in a spat, but a *firing offense*? That's absolutely absurd. What actual damage did they cause the firm, maybe an hour of wasted time on each of their parts?
Now, I can understand people being concerned about massive goofing off at work -- Slashdot, email, and so forth make it easy for that to be an issue. But expecting *no* personal communication at work is ridiculous. I don't cease being a human when I'm at work -- you can expect me to be working the strong majority of the time, but if you don't expect me to comment on, say, Katrina to co-workers, you want robots working for you, not humans.
Finally, having your lunch stolen is a real pisser -- I remember when I was working at a research firm and someone (would have had to have been at least a thirty-year-old, and most people there were more like sixty) who had to have been making a pretty significant chunk of change swiped one of the sandwiches from my lunch. I was pretty pissed -- there's no real way to defend your lunch in a common fridge -- and while I didn't send out an email asking for reimbursement, I can understand being as pissed as she was.
Why didn't they just sit down with the secretaries, have 'em shake hands and make up, tell 'em not to CC lots of people or make personal attacks, and let them get back to work? It's just ridiculous. Every now and then in their life, people get pissed off enough to do stupid things. Most of them, fortunately, are not in a situation to do something stupid, but these ones were. So now, instead of the company having two experienced secretaries who won't get in flamewars again, they're going to have to go hire two new people. Great.
There are times when you want to fire someone -- when that person is just not suited to work at the company. However, this smells awfully like a knee-jerk from some guy upstairs -- and that's not good management.
Any program relying on (nontrivial) preemptive multithreading will be buggy.
Hey Einstein the problem is what happens when a entitlement based society collapses. These people can barely think for them selves let alone problem solve. Katerina showed the problem with the welfare state in stark relief. They can't think far enough ahead to get to relief centers or even to walk out of a danger zone.
And BTW most of the people that OWN firearms were not attacked or looted by the small groups of animals that were prowling the streets. But don't worry your bigotry shows through just fine.
It wasn't a violation of acceptable use ,it was the correction fluid on the computer display that did them in...
As usual, there is probably a LOT more to the story.
As a manager, such a tepid 'flamewar' hardly rates my attention, much less the actual FIRING of two full time employees. Please. People have personalities, and they won't always be a wonderful happy always-loving bonded group of soulmates. Sometimes they'll fight, sometimes they'll fight over really, really STUPID things.
But to fire them?
I'd have them both in my office, show them the now-public email, and discuss with them the appropriate use of email and work time. Maybe I'd make a little issue over the embarrassment to the company of the public email. It probably wouldn't hurt to remind them that company emails are monitored, and theirs in particular would be up for scrutiny.
I'd also make a departmental or, (if I was high enough in the management) companywide point about the forwarding of obviously personal emails of others. I agree with the posters here that the schmuck that forwarded it 'out' is also a bit culpable.
But FIRING them? That's overreacting entirely, IMO.
-Styopa
They're probably less likely to happen - but it's got nothing to do with guns and everything to do with culture and society. [...] America is simply a violent culture.
Got any proof of that? Having lived in both places, it doesn't ring true. I felt much more at risk of being randomly assaulted by some drunk idiot in Sydney than in the major US cities I've lived in (Chicago, San Francisco). And it appears that Australia and the US have pretty similar levels of violent crime.
You'd need a bit more than $500 for an AK47, trust me. That'd get you a shitty pistol, at best. Depending on the pub.
You've clearly never been in an Australian hotel, particularly the kind of pub where you might puchase an illicit firearm.
What a long, strange trip it's been.
Flamewar? That wasn't a flamewar, but a little spat! At least, from the crappy details we got from the news article.
Let these folks learn about Usenet, and them drop them off in one of the more entertaining newsgroups, sans Nomex undies. Maybe then they will experience a flame war.
First, let me say that I am an American living in Los Angeles [according to the phone company, I'm in Inglewood]. I would argue that the reason that America is such a violent culture has to do with our accepted mythologies [I was also a philosophy major, we tend to look at the world in a really stupid way but I love it anyhow], but it's a double edged sword. The same reason that America is a superpower [for better and for worse] has to do with our accepted mythologies. For instance, the prevading mythical archetype for men growing up in the 40's & 50's was "the lone ranger" or any character John Wayne played. These lone gunmen types always went it alone, rode in to town at high noon to save it from evil men and then rode off in to the sunset [See G.W.Bush]. This became the prevaiding mythos that guided the developmental process of many many young men throughout the US during this time period [some of you, at this point, are probably crying wolf, "where is he getting this shit from?"...well anthropology for one; anthroplogists seem to be finding that the type of culture formed is predicated on the type of mythical stories, I realize this raising the chicken/egg argument and I don't have an answer to that].
:)
Fast forward to America 2005: the first question that must be answered is where is story telling and mythical creativity occuring? It is certainly no longer the realm of religion, as it was for the Greeks & the Romans. Monotheastic religions have usurped control by becoming dogmatic and refusing to be dynamic [this is a broad stroke, I realize that, but can you explain to me why then there is so much stupidity regarding religion going on in the US? Creationism for instance...you've got to be fucking kidding me right? Creationism? How fucking myopic can you get.] thus mythic creativity has spilled over in to things such as Comic Books, TV Shows and Movies.
Finally, we get the Christian Fundamentalists who think that human sexuality can be repressed and that we must protect our young from the evils of sexuality [even though there is this thing called the internet which most kids can navigate better than there parents...even here on slashdot I'm sure there are parents who think they can prevent their children from accessing porn on the internet, well you can't. You may stop it at your house but at little Jimmy's house, where his parents either A) don't care or B) don't know where the "any key" is on the keyboard]. This is where the wonderful folks from marketing step in, sex sells but we can't sell sex so we have to find the next best thing which sells which happens to be violence. Thus violence becomes focal point of American Culture; it's our own creation.
Anyhow, just wanted to add my crazy perspective to this fun little flamewar
That's the one telling us that someone died and that you are now King. Thanks in advance.
It's true I tell you, feller at work's next door neighbour read it in the paper.
That's exactly why you should have a seperate personal email account, even if you have one from your place of business: use the personal account for personal matters, and use the business account for business matters.
It's like using personal stationary versus corporate letterhead for snail mail.
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
I don't think many people whose religions forbid pork care who else eats it. I believe the Jewish and Muslim books say "YOU should not eat pork", not "EVERYONE should not eat pork". Personally, none of my Muslim co-workers ever seem to a damn what I eat...
Freedom: "I won't!"
I don't know though, the mailing seemed like it was to a floor list - most of those people would presumably know her hait color.
I think instead the "I'm not blonde!" was more of a taunt, as in "I may have forgotten my lunch but at least I'm not blonde!".
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I read just the other day that American police officers are more likely to die when stabbed than when shot.
There's likely a ton of explanations. Yours, regarding multiple stabbings, and perhaps others -- criminals are likely to be ignorant of firearms and may use very small caliber guns which are more likely to be wounding than fatal, the widespread adoption of bulletproof vests, the gross inaccuracy of most criminals leading to wounding shots.
And there's the fact that having a hunk of metal jammed into your torso or neck is pretty darn damaging, at at least as damaging as many common handgun bullets.
Strict laws can change any culture over time, guess youre ok with the government imposing culture.... good luck with that. When they come for violent song lyrics because they want to change a culture of violence just remember putting restrictions on a law abiding persons liberties may be impracticle at the time but that does not make the laws bad..
I'm sorry, but I wouldn't live in your country for anything. The reasons are the fact that your government tries to block sites on the internet they deem inappropriate and the fact that you have such restrictions on firearms.
BTW - Do you happen to know anything about the knife laws in Australia? I'm curious. I happen to live in the one US state where switchblades are legal.
Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
NOLA is south east US, not south west. The problems in NOLA were due to the culture of entitlement, and lack of personal responsibility that the new deal has created among the poorest of the US. Hell there are poverty advocates who say that looting it ok because they are poor. This was not in response to food and water this is while they were watching a clip of a guy stealing stuff from a high end electronics store. If looting is OK because they are poor why not violence against another person.
we all have poor politicians, though few of us have whole police forces that run
NO and LA are the most poorly run state/major city in the Union and its been that way for some time. The best example is a parking lot full of flooded busses that could have been used in the hours before the storm hit (or the levees broke) to get some more people out of there.
Of course, stuff left over the weekend is fair game.
We're talking about the modern era; last I checked the value of human life was quite a bit different even 150 years.
And I've probably taken more history classes than 90% of people on slashdot so don't even start.
At least one of my friends tries to make this a Unix versus Microsoft Windows holy war, but I set my mail client to reply at the top no matter which one I'm using, because it makes sense to me and apparently to almost everyone else who uses email too.
Sometimes people have ideas and improve how things are done. Just because it's new and different doesn't mean it's worse. I think this is one of those occasions.
OK thanks I'm done now ;-)
www.clarke.ca
Both my kidneys against your liver.
You honestly believe people don't buy guns illegally? Honestly? N-A-I-V-E spells "child of mercy"
It is my god given right as an American to piss standing up. I say let them install those devices here, I'll piss on it too.
"America is simply a violent culture. If they weren't shooting each other, they'd be stabbing and bludgeoning each other. The problem isn't mechanical, it's social (just to keep those flames burning)..."
I really have to disagree with this. If you look at some places that have some pretty strong gun control laws like the UK and places in the EU you have the lovely soccer riots. While not that many people die in them they are pretty violent.
Also what most people just don't get even in the US is that talking about US culture is almost completely impossible.
The US is too big and has too many people to have a single culture. The anarchy and violence in New Orleans has everything to do with culture and frankly local government in New Orleans and Louisiana. The Mississippi and parts of Alabama where just as hard hit as New Orleans and yet have not had the problems that New Orleans has.
As one person from New Orleans put it, "New Orleans is a dirty, corrupt, and poor city."
If you look at the cultures in Maine, New York, Washington, Idaho, Texas, Utah, New Mexico, Iowa, and California you will see that they are very different.
Also you have to remember that what you see on the news is what sells. Even in New Orleans most people are not going around killing each other. Just like in Northern Ireland it is a few idiots with too much fire power and not enough heart.
And yes I have family in Belfast and was there durring some of the "troubles" in the 90s when things where pretty bad.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
this report on a flamewar is likely gonna start several new ones here. this is throwing a burning torch out the window.
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
I've never been to Australia, but it seems like there are enough creatures itching to hurt/maim/kill you in Australia to make gun deaths irrelevant in comparison.
You say you got a real solution
Well, you know
We'd all love to see the plan
(The Beatles)
The anarchy and violence in New Orleans has everything to do with culture and frankly local government in New Orleans and Louisiana. The Mississippi and parts of Alabama where just as hard hit as New Orleans and yet have not had the problems that New Orleans has.
.01% of the land mass affected. If you think that means they weren't hit as hard, then you obviously lack the reasoning skills necessary to form a coherent thought. It's just easier to spout your dogmatic beliefs and such.
Really? They were affected as much? They had floods of standing water for over a week taller than a person in many places? Oh, you mean they had the same or worse rain and wind. Well, if that was the case, I doubt that the looting would have been the same in NO. No, it was the huge flood that destroyed most of the town and killed 10,000 or more people. The deaths in New Orleans alone are more than all others affected from the Hurricaine, and it was something like
Learn to love Alaska
By the way, saying that "hacking never killed anyone" is a straw man, since I personally have cleaned up after hacking attempts and virus/worm infestations in HOSPITALS.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
This is nothing more than another successful action by employers to seize power from employees. Although employers own the e-mail systems, it is ludicrous to fire people for "abusing" it. Apart from the fact that any worker will not consider the use of the e-mail (in this example) abuse, it is simply management overpowering workers...
:(
Oh well, I suppose it was inevitable... companies were going to fire workers sooner or later for so-called abuse of e-mail... Next on the list: abuse of internet bandwidth...
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
Are you saying that a gun culture where having a gun is somehow necessary to protect yourself is a good gun culture? Sure, if you really need it go have it. It doesn't make it a good gun culture however.
On the other hand, you hospital example would indicate that there indeed is a problem with hacking (cracking) culture. I'm not sure I'm getting the point here?
True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
What is happening to your Culture down there?
"Crikey!"
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
The email eventually got forwarded to the whole company (and beyond). But if you read the exchange, the reason why the other person on the other floor got the email was that she used to work on that floor and thus was on the list. So originally the target audience was much smaller. Really I don't think you can read the "Not Blonde!" thing as anything but an attack on the person the email is sent to, who is in fact blonde.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
They weren't fired for mis-using company email; they were fired for making the company look bad to its rivals and potential clients. The "flamewar" looked foolish and unprofessional, and firing the women gives the company the chance to distance itself from such behaviour and limit the damage to its image. It's all about PR.
(And, before someone points out "haha, firing them got the story into the news!!!", that doesn't matter---the story was already well-known inside the industry, and I frankly doubt they give a damn what you or I think. Firing the women makes the company look better inside the industry, and us outsiders are irrelevant.)
If you are going to blame public policy, at least blame the right one. The welfare you are blaming was part of the "Great Society" programs put in by LBJ, not the "New Deal" programs put in by FDR.
The difference is that FDR put in programs for the elderly and put in programs like the CCC and WPA where people worked *damn hard* for what they received. (Yes, it was make work, but we are still enjoying the public facilities they created.) FDR's public works programs were mostly ended during the war.
Believe me, you would not have joined the CCC or the WPA if you could find a different job. They didn't pay very well and you worked really hard. However, you were creating things for the public that had real value. They were programs that kept people who were out of work and who really wanted to work from starving.
It was LBJ's "Great Society" programs that gave us welfare for able bodied people where they did not have to work. He also gave us an expanded war in Vietnam and peacetime deficit spending. I'm a democrat, but no fan of LBJ.
Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
You think Mississippi did not get suffer as much damage as New Orleans? http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2005/s2495.htm I suggest you take a look. The state an local governments of Mississippi just did a much better job of evacuating and managing the disaster than New Orleans did.a lspecial/05vegas.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1126205635- yZeiYgyytHSmkJqZcQOc0A
One of the cultural problems that happened in New Orleans is an almost mystical belief that it couldn't happen to them. Think about it, why was there ever a voluntary evacuation notice? Why wasn't it mandatory on Saturday? The risk was so high but people still stayed. I am not talking about the poor and infirm but people that could leave but didn't! Also In Mississippi no hospital that was in a flood zone was left occupied.
These are images and facts you can see for yourself not Dogma.
Way too many people are forgetting Mississippi because of New Orleans. Also remember that flooding happened the day after the storm passed. No one should have died in New Orleans. No hospital should have had patients in it. Over 1000 school buses where left in a parking compound in New Orleans by the city that was below sea level instead of being used to get the poor and sick out of town. The state of Louisiana did not have enough shelters in the area around New Orleans for the people to go to. Yes a large amount of the looting was caused by the desperation of the people but that dire situation was caused by the culture of the City and the corruption of the local and state government. This culture isn't due to race or even class. Frankly I have no idea why city of New Orleans seems to have a culture that inspires the same long term planning goals of the average 15 year old.
I mean look at this from the New York Times!
The first responders are stressed in New Orleans. So what is the City of New Orleans going to do for them? Counseling? How about a drunked weekend partying in Las Vegas... Yea that will do it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/national/nation
Good grief some things you can just not make up.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
Really. There's no entitlement society in Indonesia and yet they were hit incredibly hard by the tsunami. The floods in Bangladesh also devastated the country and yet those people without a welfare state suffered terribly.
Your argument doesn't stand up. It's rather pathetic that the richest country in the world could let a similar thing happen to its citizens. But then as Barbara Bush said "they're much better off in the refugee camps" or words to that effect.
Your mindless prejudice against any kind of state intervention is showing.
Does a Christian soccer team even need a goalkeeper?
Apologies, I meant to say great society...
You wrote, "And there's the fact that having a hunk of metal jammed into your torso or neck is pretty darn damaging, at at least as damaging as many common handgun bullets."
Umm . . . Beg to differ, sir.
If someone sticks a knife into you, the damage to the body is confined to the path that the knife takes. However, a bullet passing through the body causes, in addition to the path of the bullet, a hydrostatic shock which can cause damage some distance away from the bullet's path. This was discovered by a British Army surgeon in the 18th century who did dissections on battlefield casualties. He reported bones being shattered more than 6 inches away from the point of impact. (We are talking about a one ounce ball propelled by black powder here.)
If I'm going to have to make a choice, I think I'd rather be stabbed than shot. Although circumstances would be the deciding factor. If it's a choice between you using a Bowie knife on me or shooting at me with a .22 short at a range of 100 yards, well, then I'd rather be shot!
In Capitalist Amerika, you fire off flamemail.
In Soviet Russia, flamemail fires you!
A culture of entitlement is not only because of social nets its because the view people have of them. In the US so much is excused because of a persons life story, we love to turn into . Notice I said lack of entitlement *AND* lack of personal . A net is a fine, fine thing but in the US we have a with generation after generation sleeping in it. Parents that even know what school their kids go to!
but I doubt that New Deal is the source of the problem considering that in the developed world we have both the highest crime rates and the smallest of the programs you blame for it.
Ten minutes you posted this I corrected myself and said Great Society.
Did the previsously mentioned sandwich have a moist-maker? Remember the Friends episode when Ross had a Thanksgiving left-overs sandwich with a mo... Ugh, forget it, just forget it. Nothing to see here.
Favorite quote: "
I've been in the situation many times where I left things in white-collar work fridges and had them stolen or used, eventhough it's always been clear that they shouldn't be.
Why would well-paid people do such petty things, as stealing your food?
Clintons Welfare reform in the 90's, while republican inspired, was a great middle ground. We will help you but soon after you must go out and work (Germany has a similar program). That program greatly angered those who are in the industry of poverty who were mostly politicians and many social workers.
What do you expect from women? Between the hair pulling and the bon-bons, there's not much time left over for actual work (you know, making coffee and answering phones).
I notice you forgot to address Bangladesh there or the fact that it's easy to leave New Orleans when you can afford a car. The evacuation buses never made it which, had the city been full of Republican voters, would never have happened.
Why shouldn't the state help you out? The government has the resources and the money that the average projects inhabitant can only dream of. Are you not ashamed that the rest of the world have done more to help than the government of the richest country in the world. Hell even Cuba offered some support (childishly refused).
Does a Christian soccer team even need a goalkeeper?
> in England violent crime went UP?
Care to explain the notion of "correlation vs. causation"?
There's no indication Britain's violent crime wave is a result of its gun laws. Certainly, Canada is not suffering a similar surge in violent crime, despite having quite restrictive firearm (especially handgun) laws. Perhaps some other factor is at play?
> Can you show that banning guns accomplishes anything other then promise criminals saftey?
It removes the ability of suicidal individuals to use an extremely effective means of suicide. Since suicide is by far the leading cause of firearm death in countries like Canada with low firearm violence, banning guns in such countries lowers the number of suicides by virtue of making any attempt at suicide less likely to succeed. (Certainly, some of those people would keep trying until they succeeded, but many would not, and would go on to be healthy and productive members of society.)
> Tell you what if guns are so bad how did socitiy surivie for generations
> with all the fireaarms hung over the door?
Guns were too expensive for most people to own? Death from disease killed people far more frequently than guns do, even in the US? People were more responsible back in the day?
I don't know. Neither do you, though, and we both should admit it.
> Fact in the "Gun Free" slaughter dome in NO they have found 40 people so
> far beaten and stabbed to death includeing a 7year old.
And you think the criminals who did that would have been less murderous if they'd been allowed to bring guns in?
Unlikely.
Also unlikely that you're right about what happened in the Superdome, considering that many of the horror stories appear to be nothing but rumour.
> Use your brains for once.
Yes, please do.
Note that I'm not saying guns are not valuable tools for self-defense in the hands of citizens. I'm just saying that you're spouting nonsense, and making pro-gun people look like fools by association. Big difference.
As for the gun laws - hunting weapons, farm weapons and pistols with good reason to have them (eg. if you are in a shooting club with the pistols) are OK but military weapons are not. While it may be nice to get 400 rounds per minute out of your AK47 it is considered a military weapon here and private citizens can't own them. In rural areas in Australia there is a very high level of gun ownership, single shot rifles are OK, automatic weapons are not. I learned to shoot at the age of seven, like a lot of Australian children growing up in rural areas.
It varies from state to state, and where I live it appears that anything the arresting officer thinks is intended for the owner to use for offensive purposes is not on. A guy who said his swiss army knife was for defence was taken in, but in other cases large belt knives and even swords in context are noticed but allowed by police officers.I knew the spelling nitpickers had got far too much confidence on this forum when some fool tried to correct my spelling of aluminium based on his regional spelling, which is different to mine. Consider obvious things like that, and that correct spelling on a forum such as this is really as relevant as spellchecking mobile telephone messages.
yes but they don't buy them by waving $500 around yelling out "anyone got a gun"
people who do that find themselves "buying" from undercover police.
if you have partience and develop contacts then of course all things are possible.
but that's not what we were talking about is it you idiot?
'There is a Light that never goes out.'
You're assuming, though, that the stabbing knife is sharp enough to only cut and not tear, and that the stabbing motion is a perfectly straight in-and-out motion.
.45 ACP), and something like 4 times as large as a common 9mm round of 115 grains. There are larger handgun rounds available, but they're not commonly used -- 45 Long Colt, .44 S&W Special and .44 Remington Magnum can take slugs in the 250-300 grain range).
I think a lot of knife wounds happen in the course of a larger physical altercation, which can result in a lot of twisting, tearing motions that can cause a lot of injury. I'd also wager that most are dull as dishwater and do a lot of tissue damage as they are forced in and out.
Your 18th century ball is about 430 grains, which is about twice the size as the largest common handgun round (230 grain
Where bullets tend to do a lot of damage isn't straight-line wound cavities or even through hydrostatic shock, but deflection off bones resulting in fragmentation and "pool table" wounds.
The evacuation buses never made it which, had the city been full of Republican voters, would never have happened.
Surely you're not suggesting that Republican voters would've voted themselves some competent and responsible Mayors and Governors, and saved their own damn selves through foresight and planning?
Oh. Wait. It's a conspiracy theory. You go, Mulder.
Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.
Canada has higher per-capita gun ownership than America and a much lower homicide rate.
Switzerland is another good example of high levels of gun ownership and low levels of violent crime.
Conversely, Japan has very low gun ownership, but high rates of homicide, assault and suicide.
Or, as I keep trying to say, IT'S NOT THE GUNS, IT'S THE PEOPLE.
Harder ? Personally I think it'd be damn near impossible to find any sort of causative relationship between the two. There's simply too many other influential variables. As I said, cultural and societal influences have _vastly_ more to do with death rates than easy access to weapons.
I also notice that general crime statistics are wose than they were before the new gun laws. I consider that to be a *far* more relevant observation than how many people have been shot.
Common-sense says a nut can no longer go hunting humans on a whim, the nuts now have to plan ahead, not to mention the extreme difficulty in finding the firearms and ammo on our island continent.
Uh, not really. A "nut" could just go to their local gun club where their half dozen handguns are stored, walk out with them, walk into a cafe and start shooting people. Or from a good position in a busy urban environment, start picking off people with a rifle.
Or they could wander through a busy nightclub with a knife quietly stabbing people.
Making it difficult for a nut to shoot multiple people in a short space of time is what the Port Aurthur laws were designed to accomplish and I think they have worked well.
I'd imagine someone one with half a dozen 6-shot revolvers on hand could do a fair bit of damage in a crowded shopping centre, if they were so inclined.
And just to play devil's advocate, I bet they would do a lot less damage if 3/4 of the people in the shopping centre were similarly armed ;).
I have to agree that gun control is largely a cultural thing, but not all of it.
*Gun control* is not the issue, *violence* is the issue. Guns are just a tool.
I've noticed anti-gun people like to do this - focus solely on the guns aspect and ignore the rest, as if gun ownership were completely independent of anything else that happens in society. They quote changes in gun death statistics, but ignore other crime statistics.
For example, statistically (in the US) shootings are roughly 5X more lethal than stabbings so more "heat of the moment" events (including suicide) end in death when there is a loaded gun in the top draw of the dresser. Those who survive a gun shot wound are 20X more likely to be permenantly disabled in some way compared to a stabbing victim.
No argument there, but what proportion of such "events" happen with guns vs knives ? What's the _big picture_, rather than just a tiny portion of it ? You can't deal with guns in isolation, their presence and availability (or lack thereof) will have _deep_ repercussions throughout all aspects of society.
I've not done any sort of in-depth analysis, but a very quick look at some stats from 1995 - 2001 seem ot indication that will guns deaths are down, homicides are steady, assaults are up significantly, sexual assaults are up robberies have nearly doubled. So while fewer people might be getting shot, roughly the same amount are getting killed, a lot more are getting hurt and a hell of a lot more are getting robbed.
I have lived in Oz for 40+ years and I think the Gun laws have kept pace with our culture over that time.
I believe that handguns should be allowed both in private residences and for people to carry on their persons - not that permits for either should be easy to get - for self-defense reasons. Personally I consider self-defense the single best argument for owning a gun, outside of "job requirements" (eg: farmer, professional hunter, professional sports shooting). IMHO the "go and shoot rabbits if I want to" is probably the least justifiable reason for wanting to own a firearm.
It's not really something you can have "proof" for - you can't measure culture. It's like saying "European women are sexier".
And it appears that Australia and the US have pretty similar levels of violent crime.
Indeed. The difference is that victims of violent crime in Australia end up walking home with a bloody nose, or maybe in hospital, and victims of violent crime in America end up in the morgue.
(Obviously that's a bit tongue in cheek, but it's probably why we have similar levels of violent crime but vastly different levels of homicides).
Unfortunately your link was broken (pasted the wrong link it looks like) so I can't comment on it directly, however, I suspect one of the reasons some rates are so similar and others are not is simply differing definitions/segmentations of crimes.
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&i tem=5614107916&rd=1&ss
"Personally I consider self-defense the single best argument for owning a gun"
So move to the US or Iraq, most people over here don't buy that self-defense crap anymore.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
This isn't the first time that there's been a hurricane to hit the US. This is however the first time that people have died in such high numbers, or have been left to suffer for several days in serious lawless conditions. It's not a conspiracy theory, it's an observation of the available information.
Does a Christian soccer team even need a goalkeeper?
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Sorry about the bad link. Here it is.
:-)
It's not really something you can have "proof" for - you can't measure culture. It's like saying "European women are sexier".
Well, actually, people can measure culture; sociologists do it regularly. And you should also be able to measure it though proxies. For example, I was suggesting that if America's culture is more violent, there should be more violent crime. Which doesn't seem to be the case.
Of course, there are other potential explanations. Assuming that American culture is more violent, then you could explain the parity in crime rates by saying that Australians are naturally more violent, and don't need any cultural stimulus to assault people a lot.
The evacuation buses never made it which, had the city been full of Republican voters, would never have happened.... It's not a conspiracy theory, it's an observation of the available information.
I can't find anything in the available information to support your observation. What data am I missing?
Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.
Semiauto's are illegal? Last time I checked, here in NZ semi's are legal. Maybe thats changed in the last few years (I havent been shooting for a while).
Its odd really, if you are proficient with a bolt action you can shoot nearly as fast as you could with a semi....
It removes the ability of suicidal individuals to use an extremely effective means of suicide. Since suicide is by far the leading cause of firearm death in countries like Canada with low firearm violence, banning guns in such countries lowers the number of suicides by virtue of making any attempt at suicide less likely to succeed.
I think the next most common method, is hanging which is also highly lethal, so it wouldn't make suicide attempts less likely to succeed. Hanging is preferred by women over guns.
(Certainly, some of those people would keep trying until they succeeded, but many would not, and would go on to be healthy and productive members of society.)
I'm not so sure about that. More info here http://suicidemethods.net/
Some science magazine I read a while ago suggested that the drug problem in the US was a credible factor in gun violence. No one has mentioned that yet.
"Semiauto's are illegal? Last time I checked, here in NZ semi's are legal."
Last time I checked NZ was a different country.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Just keep forwarding the e-mail around - pass on the bad karma, why don't you?
Thanks!
--LWM
PS - should I call you Mr Can't Keep a GirlFriend?