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Windows Vista Delayed Again
Trenty writes "Ars Technica is reporting that Microsoft has delayed Windows Vista yet again. Jim Allchin told analysts that the OS would not ship in January of 2007, which is a 1-2 month delay. Oddly, even though they are citing the need for more time to tweak security, business editions will available to volume licensing customers before the close of the year."
Oddly, even though they are citing the need for more time to tweak security, business editions will available to volume licensing customers before the close of the year.
Not really all that odd. I believe it's called a pre-sale. People do this on eBay all the time, selling items they don't yet have, but will send along when they get them.
In the software world, we've had a vendor offer us a new product, which we may actually like, at a 75% discount if we sign up by September. The product isn't entirely finished yet and it would likely be two years before migration, but the pricebreak is clearly meant to ensure they have some income. I have no idea what their books look like, but suspect this move is the result of a dire need of revenue, so it makes us go "hmmmm..."
Where do you suppose Microsoft would like to enter the income for these early sales? Revenue recorded early is revenue you can't record later. I rather doubt they are turning over a Special Bug-ridden Business User Version early. They'd be flayed in the Information Trade press. (Then again, it's probably happened a few times already, which could explain how little attention CIO's pay to these magazines, they just scatter them on their desks to look Connected and Managerial.)
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Like anyone didn't expect this. Are they too busy with Organimi or whatever? Xbox 360? Their URGE music store?
Has Microsoft EVER released anything that was ON TIME?
It's either on the beat or off the beat, it's that easy.
I moderate therefore I rule!
--
Is it me, or is Vista just becoming less and less relevant?
And the thing is, I use to be an MS fanboy but with the rapidly changing environment of security issues and such, who can wait _years_ before considering other alternatives?
-- Jim http://www.runfatboy.net/
The business version doesn't need to include that. The consumer version does.
Wouldn't it be "news" if you posted a story when a Windows release wasn't delayed?
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
...when you were never relevant in the first place. Vista has been vaporware since its first announcement as Longhorn.
Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
Looks like the MSFT share holders are not very excited about the delay- shares are down about 3% in after hour trading since the news came out.
-1 Dupe.
Our company did last year, city of Vienna did, it should work out very nicely for you too. Our former XP users love KDE.
No need to put yourself through pains when you can improve security, save money and achieve some level of vendor independence all at the same time.
They are replacing the bundled mine sweeper with Duke Nukem Forever.
While I can't imagine having to use Windows as an workstation OS going forward, is it really any surprise that MS is pushing back a release date.....again? Of course we will see the usual spiel from the Dvoraks and Cringleys about how Apple has convinced MS to make Vista EFI compatible right from launch....yadda yadda CONSPIRACY...yadda, but I think MS's reorg finally has them looking at more than $$ for once and it is starting to show.
And if anybody asks I never said that.
- InTRUHell -
Look at the bright side ..
They also announced they will include a free copy of Duke Nukem Forever..
Of course I'm joking. Still, it's funny. And relevant.
An OS with less holes is better than an OS with more holes. Let us wait patiently...
There's an official statement here: http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2006/mar0 6/03-21WindowsVistaDeliveryPR.mspx
Oddly, even though they are citing the need for more time to tweak security, business editions will available to volume licensing customers before the close of the year
When a product is ready to be shipped Microsoft releases it immediately through MSDN subscriptions. It's products are always available for download to registered customers a month or more before it ends up on the shelves. Round that time of year I doubt they would be wanting to go to the expense of pushing it to the stores round Christmas.... I mean it's not like anyone out there is going to buy a copy of Vista to fill a christmas stocking.
This doesn't surprise me at all. A staged release of a system like Vista is only sensible. I'd want to know about every little possible glitch or issue on installation of the system before, mum, dad, grandma and grandpa start installing the thing.
To quote (from memory, but hopefully accurate) the wonderful Eddie Izzard regarding Microsoft's release schedules: "It'll be out tomorrow! Next week! Next month! When we're fuckin' ready, alright?!"
She is on a fixed income and has an older computer. Forget about Windows XP, and especially Vista. Lindows is easy and works... and it's Linux.
Meh.
Who bid up MSFT stock to its highest price in one year, probably partially on expectations that the OS was ready for release. Life is sooo unfair
More to the point, if a computer program is B bits in length, then testing it requires time that is O(exp(B)). If the new version of the computer program doubles the length of the original version, then the required testing time is O(exp(2 B)). In other words, the testing time for the new version is exp(B) times the testing time for the original version.
Microsoft management probably put a gun to the heads of the grunts doing the programming and the testing. The management then realized that even if they theatened to kill the grunts, the grunts cannot defy the laws of finite mathematics, automata theory, and testability to finish the product by July 2006. Hence, the product has been delayed until 2007.
In 1990 (?), Intel management actually pulled the trigger on that gun. The consequence was the infamous floating-point-division defect in the Pentium.
By the way, I speak from experience -- as a grunt.
It will be called Windows 2010 when it will eventualy come out.
The only way I can see Microsoft being able to have Vista succeed faster than just by licenses bundled with new hardware is to cut off patches and support and upgrades from Windows XP.
After working *so* hard to get corporations to upgrade from Windows 95,98, and Windows NT to Windows XP... It's going to be a hard sell to explain that Windows XP is no longer good enough and that corporations need to not only upgrade their OS, but also need to upgrade their *HARDWARE* to take advantage of Windows Vista.
Regardless of how you define "thin client", a desktop running Windows XP fits that bill quite nicely. IE6 is good, Firefox is available, everything is going browser based. Even *if* Microsoft tried to withhold a future version of Internet Explorer from Windows XP users, there will be Firefox and Opera. If microsoft tries to require non-portable components on the client side of their web components, they're going to cut off mobile users, OSX users, Linux, etc.
How exactly can Microsoft make Vista a compelling upgrade other than releasing new game titles that will not run on Windows XP?
Certainly, they cannot cut off security updates on Windows XP at least for the next decade or so.
What's being pulled out that won't be shipping? If they pull out the kitchen sink, all they got is an overworked copy of Windows XP.
The Wall Street Journal reported that before the stock market opened today
Microsoft shares were down as much as 3% in after-hours trading.
You'd think that Microsoft's investor relations department would try to co-ordinate two announcements that might affect the stock price. If they deliberately staggered the announcements to reduce the effect of the second one, Microsoft might be in violation of securities regulations.
In any case, investors should view Microsoft's future positive announcements with suspicion since they could simply be a precursor to a negative one.
They can ship gold disks to businesses as soon as Vista is done in the fall. But getting it pre-installed onto millions of new PCs and getting those PC's otu to retailers takes time. I guess they decided it would be better to have the entire channel filled with PC's runing Vista than having a wierd mix of Vista and XP systems.
OK, now which of us would sign up to blindly install the very first version of a totally new fabuloso ground up Vista Operating System into your company in the first month of its release, no matter HOW GOOD THE HYPE? How many headaches does a business need? Add a new OS to screw up something and have to pay for it to boot (pardon the pun). Sheesh - Bo
Shocked I tell ya.
I would of never thought that Windows Vista would of been delayed. Everything from Microsoft is on time.
I will now sacrifice my MacBook Pro to the great Ballmur in order to appease him.
Like most people will actually go out and buy a boxed copy of Vista. They'll get it as an OEM release.
So who cares? I'm playing with win FX now.
..Dr. Watson contemplates on the lack of fecal matter.
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
I guess they heard how good the Ubuntu delay was recieved and thought the same reaction would happen.
The only thing they might of missed is that Ubuntu was always delivered on time, but windows....
Luckily they didn't continue their marketing stategy by adding the year to their software (e.g. Windows 2003 server) otherwise we'd be getting 'Windows 2005' in 2007.
The business volume customers aren't going to roll out Vista company-wide the same day they get it. They will start installing it on their test computers, evaluating it, seeing how it runs their in-house applications, etc. Plus, they should already have a good system in place for getting patches from Microsoft; it won't bother them much if there are lots of patches for a while.
The corporate guys will serve as an extension to the beta testing. If corporate test installs find anything, Microsoft can fix it and roll the fix into Vista before the final release.
Even if Microsoft had not slipped the final date, the corporate customers would still spend several months before rolling it out. They will probably be happy to get Vista earlier rather than later, so they can start the evaluation process.
The last customers who should get the OS are the home users, who want something that will Just Work right out of the box.
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
I remember when MacOS X 10.4 got released there were plenty of comments from MS people that Vista had similar but "better" things and would be out shortly. Now Vista has been pushed back to the point where we can expect to see MacOS X 10.5 first (scheduled for the end of this year apparently), so really all those comparisons pitting Vista against Tiger were vastly premature - the comparison is Vista with Leopard - and we don't know what that will come with yet.
In the meantime the Linux side of things continues to move along. At the present rate I would expect it reasonable to find Xgl or AIGLX along with Beagle and similar as standard in distributions released around the end of this year, along with a more Cairo-ised GTK and a steadily improving GNOME. I don't know anticipated release dates for KDE 4.0, but I don't believe it's too far away (compared the the Vista release), and certainly promises to be impressive. A lot of Vista's claims to superiority are going to be already present in Linux distros before Vista gets released.
Certainly this has to be a worrying trend for MS. The Linux desktop used to be well behind and playing catch-up. While it could still use some polish in some areas, as far as new features are concerned Linux has pulled up to level pegging - that implies that the Linux Desktop is improving much faster, and Linux pulling ahead is simply a matter of time. In the meantime Apple has been managing a much faster release cycle and doesn't seem to be having any problems staying ahead of MS.
Jedidiah.
Craft Beer Programming T-shirts
You assume less holes. Microsoft has not really proven that each version contains a significantly fewer number of holes. Given the same time frame as 2000, XP has proven to be equally flawed.
Also, keep in mind that they openly admitted that they stopped development halfway through to rewrite the entire OS and still attempted to make a deadline! That to me says that they had to cut corners on development and on testing and I'm willing to bet their are GAPING holes as a result.
This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
to stop Vista being able to run on Mac's.
A) Duke Nukem Forever
B) The Infinium Phantom Console or
C) Windows Vista!
All I have to say is thank god they moved away from their old naming scheme (year = version)
Hey, if it works for the console debate between xBox360, PS3, and NR, then it jolly well can work for deciding which OS to use for PCs ...
... irony, thy name is slipped ship dates.
Besides, they have the Intel-based Macs out at the UW Bookstore this week
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
I think what he meant to say was "OS would not ship *until* January of 2007". At least, that was the impression I got from other news reports hitting the internet this afternoon on this topic.
And just randomly guessing what will be happening to OSX in January.
Well if steve is previewing X.5 at the developer conference, you can pretty much guess the full release would be planned for Macworld in January. Although they may release earlier.
"Call us when the New age is old enough to drink" Beck
Am I the only one that wants my base OS in a business environment to be the same for approximately 5 years? How often do you people want a new OS to be released?
Opps...I mean Vista.
Will its release be delayed as well? Oh wait... Never mind.
"Vista...is on target"
"Microsoft is on track..."
"... we are on track to deliver..."
Hey, Microsoft is doing great! I wonder what the holdup could be?
"... the industry requires greater lead time to deliver Windows Vista on new PCs during holiday".
Ah...I see. Microsoft would do so much better if it weren't for those pesky OEMs dragging them down!
(and I don't know what that 'consistent and positive feedback' is. We're using where I work, and the comments may be consistant but they're hardly positive.
Hmmm...
a rch/045571.html
http://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2006-M
"So there we have it - this appears to be the first release in which they simply started dropping APIs."
"And, therefore, the first time for which we can categorically state that Wine will be more compatible with Windows applications than Windows itself."
"Not to mention that they're handing a near-fatal blow to OpenGL support, too."
etc.
I can't help noticing that one of the marketing graphics for Vista is a picture of two people standing on a hillside searching into the far distance across an empty landscape.
They may wish to think about changing this image. Appropriate, it may be, but not the best marketing image...
Since Leopard is slated to come out some time early 2007, I'm thinking that this might be another blow to Microsoft.
OSX has released several versions since XP, and has been offering more and more of the features that Vista promises. It seems like MS has been trying to keep people hyped for the last few years, but at some point people are going to stop and realize that Apple is offering all of the features of Vista *now* and not X months from now.
The date they will stop patching your copy of XP just got pushed back two months.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Windows Vista Delayed again, why wait then? what do you gain by waiting?
Consumers should go for what is on the market now, like linux, etc.
I had read this DesktopLinux.com article (http://desktoplinux.com/news/NS7069459557.html) which seems to be an alternative for the users.
Vista is a hole. A black hole. It swallows up endless amounts of time, money, and media attention. And nothing ever comes out!
D) Debian
--
Given enough personal experience, all stereotypes are shallow.
Just thinking while writing the above - I'm not sure how much MS cares about customer goodwill - they might still feel that they got the balls of most of the market in their warm sweaty hands (which is probalby true for large parts of the market). Coming from that point of view - your statement might be "righter" for non-monopolistic players than for entities like MS.
I can't find the link now, but I remember like 6 months ago there was this big story (on slashdot actually) how the development process of Vista is the best and fastest yet. It basically said "When we first started to create vista, things got so slow we scrapped it and started over with a fresh new process. Now we are actually ahead of schedule". I love to see them eat crow. Man I wish I could find that link!!!
If an officer ever threatens to taze you, say you have a pacemaker.
in order to buy. Will 2010 be good enough for you Mr. Gates? No? How about 2012? Would you believe 2020? In the mean-time, let us release some more XP service packs which cause more bugs than they fix, so we can cover up the fact that each Vista improvement causes more bugs than it fixes as well. That this is a trend that has been going on with Microsoft since 20 years ago.
Might as well build a Windows API library over Linux or OSX and just turn Windows into a library or environment that is bought and then run on a host OS that actually is more stable than Windows Vista or any other Windows will ever hope to be.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
To the guy who has the sig "Deja Foobar," it's very important that this is spelled, "fubar." Trust me.
Basically MS was too ambitious in their new plans.
As things get increasingly complex, the time to plan, develop, and test increases at an even faster rate. The code base is getting incredibly huge and complex. Unfortunately, the people at Microsoft undestimated just how complicated their plans were. In the end, they had to keep portions of legacy code they set out to irradicate, such as the registry or the boot system.
There's a few other delays down the road that are currently being overshadowed by the OS delay. The OS delay acts as a nice camo for pushing back other portions of the OS. For example, WinFS? Good luck seeing that any time soon. What about Monad? I would not be surprised if Office and IE7 are also contributing to this problem.
But let's not get carried away; MS is smart. They are on so many battlegrounds (search, home entertainment, portal computing, etc) at once and yet they are fighting them all at once. Why do you think that is?
They won't release Vista until it fully integrates and counters ALL of these fronts so that they can, in one monopolistic swing, win all the battles at once. So these delays are necessary in their Plan to come out #1.
That contest MS is running for the real release date for Vista... I guessed Dec. 11th, while most aimed closer to the November release date announced. Now I'm off a month in the other direction. If it goes to OEMs early, does it count as the real release date? Could I win? I wanna win! Yay me!
-bZj
.sig
Or am I thinking of... I get so confused.
Vista is looking more and more like a ripoff of Apple's own pioneering death march towards a complete OS rewrite of its own. Ten years later, natch.
Ahh, Microsoft. Have they no shame at all?
Who needs security? Oh. Everyone except MS users. I forgot.
_______
DIY Linux virus removal:
1) [root@localhost ~]# rm -rf /
If the word around the campfire is that Vista is coming right after the first of the year, and there is still doubt as to exactly what hardware is going to be required to use all of the eyecandy, etc. then there is only one real question left to ask...
How many Microsoft execs will Mr. Dell have executed? Seriously, Xmas '06 PC sales will be toast! Ick.
Democrat delenda est
Apparently, the only versions of Vista that will be available with a Volume License Key ("business versions") will be missing features that most pirates want.
TO START
PRESS ANY KEY
Where's the 'ANY' key? I see Esk, Kitarl, and Pig-Up...
Oddly, even though they are citing the need for more time to tweak security, business editions will available to volume licensing customers before the close of the year.
I know! Let's sell the less secure version first to businesses who actually profit from their computers! What an great idea!
*Microsoft T-shirts and Xbox games to all*
umm, no offense, but....where I live in Georgia, we really don't consider UGA to be an academic institution. Well, yes, they play make believe at it of course... but.. it's a place where the Dawgs hang out, and a lot of beer disappears. Beyond that..diploma mill for Jocks mostly. Most of them go into mid level management.
I am sure there are plenty of grammatical fubars here..have at it. Neener.
So I guess that means Halo 2 on PC is going to be delayed as well... They might as well be smart about it and put Halo 3 out on PC since that'll probably be out well before Vista....
Insert Sig Here
The reason Vista is delayed because of Halo's development being slowed.
What's Vista without Halo 2, after all?
that makes Oct 2001 - Jan 2007, just over 5 years. In 2001, George bush was elected, Wikipedia went public for the first time, foot and mouth was hitting the UK, Mac OSX 10.0(!) was released, Jeffry Archer was sentenced to four years imprisonment, 9/11, launch of the iPod, Microsoft ends support for Windows 95.
It's been a long time, eh?
I was wondering why don't we make a huge internet bet about the final release day. I think it will be released on may 30, just because "it's before half year". Oh, those marketing guys, I just love them
Could this be a relative of Jay Leno? All Chin? Hmm...
Who had March 21rst on the "Vista is delayed" announcement pool? New pool for the next announced delay date starts soon!
Depending on how MS packages the different versions, it might be as simple as comparing a few files and patching the home version as needed.
They might as well be saying "we wanted to save you the trouble of jumping through the code, so here's a copy without our protection."
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
Mac OS X 10.5 "Leopard" is still scheduled for release in late 2006 or early 2007. In the same time span that MS may release 1 version of their OS, Apple may release 5 versions. Sad.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Are we talking a delay in all 6 versions, or just the 3 consumer ones, or the 2 other ones or that 1 other one?
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
I'm not much on the stock trade so I don't know much about this. What exactly would the violation be? Would it be any different if they had released the Vista news before X-Box?
It's somewhat of a fact of life that companies and even people do try to mix good news with bad, or am I missing something?
I think it has a lot to do with not wanting to sell before Christmas. Many people who are buying new PC's for the kids will do that at Christmas, and you'll see a lot of "Vista Ready" PC's being advertised. However, many of the new games that come out starting next year will use DirectX 10, which will only be available for Vista. This will create a lot of kids whining for an upgrade to Vista next Christmas.
Why sell it now (at OEM pricing, around $50US) when you can sell it a few months, maybe a year, later at upgrade prices (at least $100US). They even get to keep the 50 bucks they made selling the OEM copy of XP.
The PC makers like the idea because it will boost PC sales in the early part of the year, a traditionally slow period, but probably won't seriously impact Christmas sales.
Open Source for Open Minds
I'm betting the PS3 will be out before Windows Vista. Maybe Microsoft should have got Vista out before using resources to push the 360 out? Although you'd think such a wealthy big company could do both.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
Oooo! 3D windows! Just what I fucking needed. :-P
(Score:-1, Redundant) Oh, the irony.
while we all like to complain about windows XP (for example i just had to create a new registry key to make XP STFU about my movies drive being down to 15 megs) the fact is that windows XP gets the job done in an acceptable manner
XP Pro has real multi-user isolation and, if enabled, file encryption. XP is reasonably stable and does not shatter the way 9x did every time a program misbehaved.
Windows XP is a solid enough platform that it will be very difficult to entice everyone to fork over the cash to "upgrade".
If Microsoft cannot find a killer app for Vista, and no Trusted Computing won't be it, Vista will be going nowhere fast.
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
Now Christmas is ruined!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you implying that comparing business card designs *isn't* geeky?
Not really, Alanis.
Which they made you pay $100 a pop for each version. That's $400 to upgrade from 10.1 to 10.5 when you get free service packs from Microsoft, and you only need to pay ~$120 for the newest version of Windows 5 years down the pipe. Apple has been adding features to their operating system since day one to bring it up to snuff, but Microsoft has been patching thiers and adding things through service packs.
The point is: Apple has not released 4 reworked operating systems. They've released service packs with additional software (including UI enhancements, and speed gains). They are basically service packs, which, by the way, Microsoft released Service Pack 2 less than 5 years ago. Microsoft can't release all of their software inside their operating system because they would be slammed with an Antitrust lawsuit. Which is why you can always pick up the newest versions, beta or not, all over the web and test them on your machine.
I am not trying to belittle OSX, but its not the same release pattern as Microsoft (obviously). They are bringing their operating system "up to snuff" with (the majority) of changes being "under the hood" (including patches and what not). Microsoft tends to release everything all at once, and then release service packs with additional features.
I'm f#$king magic!
Won't that be one year and one month after the end of "the year of the Linux desktop".
What will it matter what MSFT is doing then? I mean, Linux is all done, finished, polished, and being given away in millions of copies.
I'm a software visionary. I don't code.
Most people have to pay for a QA department. MS gets one for free this way!
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
And just to highlight how silly comparing their release cycles is, that same Friday is about the 13th anniversary of Windows NT.
If Apple are still pumping out non-trivial OS X updates every 12 months in 2014, *then* I'll be impressed.
Might as well build a Windows API library over Linux or OSX and just turn Windows into a library or environment that is bought and then run on a host OS that actually is more stable than Windows Vista or any other Windows will ever hope to be.
Your describing Wine/Cedega/Cross-over office exactly. Wine is a Win32 API for Linux. Did you realise this or were you being sarcastic?
So, while not bulletproof, you really think that XP SP2 is not significantly more secure than previous versions of Windows? If so I would beg to differ. Actually, with the rate of security holes being found in OSX of late, I wouldn't be surprised XP SP2 and OSX were almost equal on this front.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
Top 10 Reasons Vista was delayed:
.dll
10 - Waiting for Roswell Alien Technology
9 - Will work better when Bird Flu is World Wide
8 - Oprah has not done the book review yet
7 - Apple Dual Boot XP still needs work
6 - Courtney Love needs one more rehab
5 - Still Can't remove Sony Root-kit
4 - Bush is still president
3 - http://onlytherightanswers.com/ has NOT given thumbs up yet
2 - Silva Brown said WAIT!
1 - Moore's Law, It's too slow right now
Black Gray White Hats Unite to protect http://testing.OnlyTheRightAnswers.com
Didn't they do something like this when they sold (Q)DOS to IBM before they had anything? History does repeat itself :P
Hasta Luego, Vista
Oddly, even though they are citing the need for more time to tweak security, business editions will available to volume licensing customers before the close of the year.
I think you are kind of confused.
He Meens that even though they need to do more tweeking security.. they are still going to release a full coppy to buisnesses.
So the ODD thing is.. they buisness will be buying a product that has holes in it.
To back up what you were saying http://www.kernelthread.com/mac/osx/history.html:
"It would be an understatement to say that OS X is derived from NEXTSTEP and OPENSTEP. In many respects, it's not just similar, it's the same. One can think of it as OpenStep 5 or 6, say. This is not a bad thing at all - rather than create an operating system from scratch, Apple tried to do the smart thing, and used what they already had to a great extent. However, the similarities should not mislead you: Mac OS X is evolved enough that what you can do with it is far above and beyond NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP."
Just like you can think of XP being NTv5.1 (I think it is 1 or 01...)
Am I open minded towards open source, or closed minded towards closed source?
If a consumer purchases a PC on the cusp of Vista, and MS doesn't change the featured OS for years, then eventually some users will want to upgrade.
Microsoft tax + upgrade money, rather than just microsoft tax.
Am I open minded towards open source, or closed minded towards closed source?
I thought there wasn't going to be volume licencing for Vista. That's just something I heard on Slashdot, so it is probably untrue.
Hey look everyone! There's not going to be volume licencing for Vista!
Now you have a source - that's how the internet works my friend.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
An OS with less holes is better than an OS with more holes. Let us...
Buy OS X?
Install Linux?
Install BSD?
There's all sorts of options that involve more or less instant gratification.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The problem with your comparison is that Windows is a mature product, whereas OS X is not. OS X releases have been relatively frequent simply because so much stuff has needed significant improvements (most notably, performance, but also things like UI).
So since OS X has now lapped even Vista by havng similar (yet more advanced) features in place years beforehand, does the statement that OS X is an immature product mean that Windows is even less so?
Of course, I guess you could mean "mature" in the sense of "dottering". Yes, I guess I could see that but you should probably try to be clearer next time you post.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
By the time games won't run on XP anymore (5-6 years from now)
Hope you don't like Halo much!
Given the degree of control they have over developers, do you not think many others will follow suit?
But there's been a miscalculation - you could install Vista, or you could buy a 360 and then a Mac for real work.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
We may see a preview of it at WWDC in August, but it may well not launch until anytime between November and January.
Or it might be like the Intel macs and come out six months early!
I have to agree that is unlikley given the developers need to have some lead time.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I find it increasingly amusing the inverse relationship between feature numbers and release dates with Windows Vista.
-Sam
Oddly, even though they are citing the need for more time to tweak security, business editions will available to volume licensing customers before the close of the year."
The "business editions" probably don't initially need the "security" that Microsoft is presently tweaking. Rumour has it that their DRM is flakier than a Death Valley croissant. They could ship without but there'd be the devil to pay if the users lost major functionality in SP1 (which they would have to: DVD copying, many codecs and a lot of HW spring to mind as being WMDRM no-nos). They can't ditch it: that would leave them competing with XP, OSS (read IBM and Novell) and Apple for a saturated market. That is not a recipe for meeting market expectations of ~11% growth. Another alternative would be to take a half-assed approach which doesn't actually work but creates enough FUD to coast another release cycle. The difference this time is twofold. First, as observed above, WMDRM and related licensing might be the only thing between MS staying on top or becoming another DEC. Secondly, they're now in the tank with the same sharks who have been suing grannies and children for the past five years. Those anti-consumer groups want the whole pie too and have the paperwork and legal skills to steal the whole thing if Bill f***s up.
Footnote: Since DRM provably cannot work on customer-controlled equipment, Bill can't not f*** this one up. Interesting times.
I write high-definition video editing software, and I'll be running Vista Ultimate.
I would have expected you to have known this from here, here, or here.
"Mature", as in stable, proven technology. Like the 2.4 kernel is "mature". Like Solaris is "mature".
Ah yes! Like OS X is mature. Now I follow you.
My meaning is perfectly clear to people who aren't standard-issue, cookie-cutter, anti-Microsoft trolls. Do you have similar difficulties understanding the meaning of:
"The problem with your comparison is that the 2.2 kernel is a mature product, whereas the 2.6 kernel is not." ?
Well, I never said anything else was not mature, just that OS X was compartivley mature as well. So I guess to go back to the comparison game, since I'm only advocating the stability of a platform and you are advoacting for the stability of Windows and Linux and ANYTHING but OS X... who'se the cookie cuttor troll again?
I think we've heard your tune before.
I kindly offer you the last word on the subject to ease your mind.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
You all do not understand what is microsoft doing,it is all part of their antipiracy master plan.If there is no product then there is no piracy anywhere...
I seem to remember reading articles related to MS' anti-trust suit that indicated that many of the restrictions in their settlement ended in 2007. Anyone else recall that? At the time (about 2 years ago) I predicted Longhorn/Vista would be delayed until 2007 if that were the case and have repeated that assertion several times. I come home from work today to find e-mails from a number of friends congratulating me on a prediction made a long time ago. If true it should be no surprise the length of time between OS releases.
speaks for itselfs, can say "xx thousand presale copies already sold, it MUST be good!!! You'll definitely be wanting a copy too huh! Get in line!"
The revolution will not be televised... but it will have a page on Wikipedia
They'll be behind firewalls, running with restricted user profiles etc anyway. It's the dumb home user, directly connected to the net, running anything that hits their inbox that mostly needs extra protection.
(yes, generalising)
The revolution will not be televised... but it will have a page on Wikipedia
It's not the low-spark of high-heeled boys...
It's the rustling of Jim Allchin's pink slip.
"Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell
But I read the press release as Vista will be available to MSDN/TechNet/[insert other business agreement name] in November 2006 when our code goes gold and we can stick it on a web server right away and it will be available in the shops and with most OEMs in January/February 2007 as we need to get all the DVDs printed and OEMs need a little bit of time to get their custom install methods finished.
The 360 is going to cost more than Vista on its own, so in purely monetary terms, your alternative really isn't that good an idea.
The 360 price will of course come down as the PS3 releases.
And the 360 will be cheaper than the video card upgrade you'll need to really make use of Vista.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I'm not actually that big a fan of Halo either, I own nor have really played any of the games outside of an occasional multi-player XBox session or two.
The biggere problem is that Halo is the tip of the iceburg for PC gamers, who have been able to linger on a platform for some time until now - there were people playing games on Win98 for years after XP came out.
Microsoft seems to want to change that dynamic and force gamers to upgrade much sooner, like as soon as Vista comes out. So the original poster is going to have to make a choice when Vista comes out - upgrade then or jump platforms? Either option has expense.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Here is an interesting perspective on Windows Vista and how it will affect online video, music, and photos and why it is bad for Google and Apple.
Why Windows Vista Delay is Bad News for Apple and Google
It is said the longer the wait the eagerness increases. Lets hope microsoft does not disappoint us. I'm wondering what radical changes microsoft proposes to introduce in windows vista?
Chris ,
Php Programmers.
Probably, what they means under "tweaking security" is security of content providers and software vendors. I.e. some protection against un-sanctioned use of system by legitimate user. This is lesser issue in the business environment, where they can just sue customers.
So if I understand correctly M$ has adopted the use of timeboxing: they used that excuse to exclude several features (WinFS, ...) from the first Vista release so they would be able to release it on time. Still they are pushing their release dates ahead.
:/
They are now releasing less features equally late; looks like a 'worst of both worlds'-approach to me...
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url= /library/en-us/dnlong/html/AppComp.asp/
In prior releases of Windows, Winsock clients did not have an API set to access the kernel. This will change in Windows Vista. Also, Windows Vista now supports IPv6 by default. Instead of providing separate APIs for IPv4 and IPv6, a new Helper API set was designed to provide a common functionality across all the new technologies, as follows: # Kernel mode functions for Windows Sockets in Kernel (WSK) clients.
It must have taken like ages to get this done, And I bet they're getting it out now!
This is a compelete disaster for all PC vendors. Now that the hardware is essentially avaiable with the release of new Core Duo and Pentium D Processers, along with the 256 mB 3D Graphics cards, PC Vendors will have the new computers ready, but nobody in their right mind will want to buy one until Vista ships. With Microsoft missing the Christmas season by a couple of weeks, there are going to be some very annoyed PC vendors out there.
The problem is simple really, if you buy a PC before Vista ships, you will have to pay extra to have Vista installed when it is released, which will probably be about £100 ($160); more than the price difference of an specification equivalent Apple when compared with a PC. Therefore, the issue is going to be why consumers will be buying a computer that has an obsolete operating system and risk losing their personal data to upgrade it themselves two weeks later; amateur hour or what?
More worryingly is the fact that Microsoft want to pull the plug on XP in about 2 years time. This is in an era when car manufacturers give a 3 year warranty for their cars and have to support the cars for spare parts for at least 7 years after manufacture. This attitude is unacceptable.
Computers are very complex pieces of equipment. However, if I purchase a computer for home and business use, I would expect the computer to work correctly for a reasonable amount of time (i.e. at least 3 years). Unless Microsoft are prepared to install a free copy of Vista on all PCs sold with XP at the end of the year, I think there is going to be a backlash like Microsoft hasn't seen before.
This will just give the Kiddy Scripters that much more time to fine tune their root kits and other nasties using one of the many beta version of Vista that are currently down loadable off the InterNet.
I have a box running XP Pro, and to Microsoft's credit, it runs pretty good. I have no complaints. I have other boxes running other OSes, and I usually don't futz around with upgrading unless I have a compelling reason to. I have the XP Automatics Updates turned on, so I suppose it's up to date. While the XP box isn't my main desktop machine, it seems to be solid when I do use it.
So will there be any compelling reason to upgrade to Vista? Why bother?
In the course of every project, it will become necessary to shoot the scientists and begin production.
Or not enough? ;-)
I actually somewhat agree with you. It's not a big deal that Vista is delayed a month or two. ou have a good computer already, and I think the world can stand to wait for this. Plus, if more time is given, the finished product will be better. Simple as that.
NPR had a quickie about this this morning on the radio.
They led in with something like "Microsoft may lead stock drops this morning with the news they will be delaying the latest version of their Windows operating system". In their piece, they also mentioned there would be a management shake-up in the Windows development team, which got my attention more then the delay.
I can't find it mentioned anywhere else, and NPR's own site only has a small text blurb. I can't get the audio stream to work. byt maybe someone else can and check behind me.
I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it.
If you need exponential time to test your code as it increases in size, you're probably going about the business in a less than ideally efficient way. Unit-testing can help. So will proper design.
I'm being too polite, what you've described sounds a lot like the testing equivalent of the bogosort algorithm, ie, sorting a deck of cards by shuffling them randomly and then checking to see whether you happened to shuffle them into sorted order. A bogosort takes exponential time, whereas an ideal sort is O(n * log(n)) worst-case.
If you were writing a program which needed to convert between N different image formats, would you write something that converted between each combination (ie, N*N conversion routines), or would you be more clever and do what Jeff Pozanker did with PBM (ie, write a common intermediate format and only N * 2 conversion routines)...?
"The human race's favorite method for being in control of the facts is to ignore them." -Celia Green
Microsoft will always get an immediate market share boost until OEM's like Dell, HP, etc, stop bundling the latest and greatest version of Windows with new PC's. In fact, during a 'transition" phase when MS debuts a new OS, OEM's usually charge more if you want the older OS. Then they simply stop shipping it as an option. Most people, including corporations, eventually bow to this form of "persuasion."
I have a suggestions for OEM's - get a fully-patched version/image of XP - make it available as an option when ordering new systems, and give people the choice of ordering Vista (risky business), or a fully-patched version of XP - maybe even tweaked to lock it down further than MS's default patches.
"Let us raise a standard to which the wise and honest can repair" - George Washington
XP SP2 isn't an OS... It's an OS patrch. You can't compare a patch to an OS. Even so, XP even with SP2 has still been finding CRITICAL vulnerabilities right off the bat. In fact several critical vulnerabilities were found before SP2 even came out that SP2 doesn't protect you from. Plus, half the vulnerabilities that are reported to Microsoft even get patched or announced as being patched. Several security experts have complained openly and to Microsoft about reporting security holes that they don't fix until they are made public 8 months later. Taking into consideration holes reported, holes announced, holes patched and holes improperly patched, they still are the leader in 'unsecurity'.
As for OSX, well, the total of holes so far is about 1% of XP's in the last few years. I think they have a LONG way to go before catching Windows. And considering that the backend of the OS is a BSD variant, I doubt they will.
This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
From the article:
"We're trying to crank up the security level higher than ever," he said. "This came down to a few weeks. We are trying to do the responsible thing here... Maybe in the past we would have just gone ahead but now we're not going to do that."
How about a slashdot poll on how many security patches for holes found within a month because it was rushed and they 'went ahead anyway'? I think it could be quite interesting.
To me this harkens back to the release of Windows 2000 with Bill's famous quote "It's our most stable windows ever." followed precipitously by BSOD.
there is no Winslows equivalent to Final Cut Pro, for instance.
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
Chances that HURD will be completed just before Vista release.
"It would have been the ultimate OS to dual-boot into to play games, especially missing all that legacy 16 bit crap that by most accounts is what was wrong with Windows 9x."
... -> Win 3.x -> Win 95 -> Win 98 -> Win ME (EOL)
...
Microsoft has two major Windows product lines:
Win NT -> Win 2000 -> Win XP -> Win 2003 -> Win Vista ->
I call the first "classic Windows", and the second "NT".
Classic Windows runs on top of MS-DOS, always has, always did. No exceptions. Up to and including Windows 3.x, MS-DOS was a separate product. With "Windows 95", what would have been "Windows 4.0" was bundled with what would have been "MS-DOS 7.0" and sold as one product. DOS was still there, and vital to the operation of Windows, even once it switched to protected mode.
Even Windows ME boots the old MS-DOS code and depends on it for operation. It was just that the ability to boot to the DOS prompt (so-called "MS-DOS Mode" or "Command Prompt Only" in 95/98) was disabled. I believe you could still make DOS boot floppies with Win ME (I don't recall for sure, and I sure as hell don't have Win ME around to check).
Windows NT was a "new" OS. It never ran on top of DOS. It does include a lot of crappy Win16 code for legacy support, but that's mainly in a well-isolated subsystem that doesn't run unless you run a Win16 program. (Note that this says nothing about the quality (or lack thereof) of the Win32 code.)
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
WOO-HOO!
bwom bwom bwom bwommmm
whaaaauuuuuuuhhhhhh
Does it really matter when Vista ships ? Are there really so many slashdotters who are going to stand in line at 4 in the morning on release day to get the first copy like we did for Win95 ? I'm deathly scared of Vista myself, I will probably wait a bit for the early adopters to trash their data or discover all the neat things you CAN'T do with Vista, then hopefully play with it very discreetly within a VMWare sandbox. I hate to say this, but Windows XP does what I need today, since most of the functionality I use comes from 3rd party software, and DirectX. I don't think it would be horribly contorted for someone with a purpose, to create a Vista-like suite of apps/interfaces that run on a 2003/XP kernel.
:P That's not rocket science. 3D-Accelerated display ? We've got XGL and Quartz for inspiration. Integrated firewall ? Norton/McAfee/roll your own.
What does everyone want from Vista anyways ? system-wide search ?
Windows Vista would have been hot THREE YEARS AGO. Now it feels like we'll simply be paying to turn our Windows PC's into slow mac clones.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
"By any rational measure, OS X is every bit as 'mature' as Windows..."
;-)
Wait. I thought you liked Max OS X?
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
therevolution: "Whereas Windows is pretty much the same now as it was 13 years ago?"
drsmithy: "There's a hell of lot less *new* code in Windows."
I'm just curious what your basis for that statement is. That is, what your source is, and how the term "new" is being used. I'm honestly curious. (I've got little to no interest in these platform-wars. I'm a Free Software nut, so it's all payware to me.) Sure, Mac OS X was a radical departure from System 9, a totally different product, but 13 years ago, Microsoft was still saying classic Win 3.x was a good idea. Windows XP has a massive amount of "new" code. (This says nothing about the *quality* of that code, of course, but that's not what you were talking about.)
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
They are rolling out the images earlier. They delay on the consumer side is to allow the retailing outlets to be on par with Dell, etc. direct sellers. So that the corporate customers who purchased licenses (remember Software Assurance?) won't be completely cheesed, the volume business customers can get it early anyway. But basically, MS could roll Vista out to Dell, but won't because HP, Gateway and now Lenovo would pitch a fit.
Kudos!
Ooh, taking an article about a delay/vapourware and making a Duke Nukem Forever joke about it. While we're being original, I'd like to take this time to say that I for one welcome our new delayed operating system overlords ;)
"When the atomic bomb goes off there's devastation...but when the atomic bong goes off there's celebraaaaation!"
I think you're dead wrong. The biggest trends for the last few years has been blogs, which are dirt simple website 99% of the time, and Google's dominance, which runs typically basic webpages and maximizes on speed. XML, etc. is good enough for the long-term. Oh, everyone is making hay on video, and that seems to be working fine without new web standards and langauges. Considering the bleeding edge for 90% of the internet is a website like ESPN, it will be a while before that potential is tapped out.
As for MS propaganda, they've just made too many enemies. They won't be able to achieve huge market share in any new markets, the word got out about 10 years ago that they'll bleed you dry. No more monopolies.
Maybe it dawned on MicroSoft that their upgradable protected environment *can* be hacked by criminals who can insert *their* upgrade code into the upgrade ready free space provided by MicroSoft upgraders who are upgrading systems where criminals are hiding their upgrade code from MicroSoft's upgrades. It's all so confusing. Best to avoid Vista altogether.
I remember when disk 11 got corrupted and wouldn't work. ~sniff~ brings a tear to my eye. It's not like I needed to re-install Wind95 or anything...
I did know that. I was challenging the original poster's possible insinuation that there will be no Volume License Key activated version with all the DRM stuff.
Conclusion: the Empire squashes the Federation like a bug. Accept it.
I'm not a windows fan but I have to admit that people are always slamming them because they seem to put business before security and quality. Seems like they may be catching on.
Expression has existed for quite a while, and was on the market well before Microsoft acquired the company who developed it.
It used to be marketed by Fractal Design, aka MetaCreations, which was bought by Corel.
September 2011: Looking for Cocoa/iOS work in Boston area Cocoa Programmer Quincy, MA
Microsoft, in a press release today, has revealed more information about its revolutionary new operating system, Windows Vista. Microsoft has decided to drop the Aeroglass Desktop and go with the E17 window manager. The entire NT kernel has been replaced with the GNU HURD, with an NT compatibility layer. To "embrace and extend" the World Wide Web, Microsoft has included Udanax technology to provide support for 'transclusion,' a key component of Project Xanadu. As mentioned previously, Solitaire will be replaced by Duke Nukem Forever. This is shaping up to be the most exciting Windows release ever.
---- "XML is like violence. If it doesn't fix the problem, you aren't using enough."
Great news. If they could just delay it for umm 50 more years I can avoid having to use it.
OK, so where are the single-head multiplayer games for the PC? If I have multiple people in the house who want to play video games, I don't want to have to buy a separate PC and a separate monitor for each player. Why don't more commercial PC games allow plugging in multiple gamepads and having each control one player's character? (Read More...)
This is a very very good thing. Vista is extremely pretty but not even close to ready for prime time. A huge amount of the beta testers (Including me) have had install problems and even after spending 4 hours on the phone with Redmond we were still unable to get the system up and running 100%. There is definitely some work that is needed to be done. That being said, I am extremely impressed with the Vista Beta program! The Developer chats have been excellent and they work very hard to answer all our questions. They are working very closely with beta testers to insure that all issues are resolved. On top of that, the beta test group provided the biggest surprise of all. Not everyone was an MS disciple! In fact the Linux users out numbered the Windows peeps in the chats I have attended. Feed back has been excellent and MS has developed several new ideas so that beta testers can be more involved in the project on Microsoft Connect. I obviously can't give too many details, but so far my reactions to Vista have been mixed. First off it is beautiful! One friend who is a die hard OSX user said "Wow, this is prettier then Mac!" to give you an idea. There is going to be a huge support cost attached to this product however. It is a revolution in the design of the interface. While it is much more intuitive, things that used to be a right click away are now buried several clicks deep inside wizards and the like making it hard to access certain commonly used administration tools (Network settings come to mind). Due to the interface changes the OS will require extensive retraining of IT Help desks before it can be implemented on the desktop in most large organizations. I think that will be it's main weakness in terms of acceptance in a business environment. This may make other OS's such as Linux more attractive to big business as now they will face retraining costs no mater which OS choice they go with. If MS discontinues support of XP after the release of Vista as it has with NT and 2000, businesses will be forced to face these costs one way or another. It will be a interesting deployment in any event. Don't sweat the delays though. MS might just be making sure that the product isn't a beta when it hits the shelves this time. We will just have to wait and see. Peace pseudonym
anyone who has had any experience with M$ could have predicted this.... with a big hangover even! I know I have a post-it somewhere with this exact prediction on it.... maybe stuck to the one with my password?
Sig Hansen?
If MS would say 'no' to DRM, they wouldn't have succeeded in pushing it through.
Somehow, you believe it is a good thing that Vista "supports" the "new formats".
But Vista is only facilitating something that is going to be a very bad thing for consumers in general.
So I hope everyone is going to be very happy with their crippled OS while I'm sticking with Linux.
"As far as I know this is incorrect. Windows 95 and up do not jump to DOS, do not utilize the DOS interrupt, et cetera. DOS is there only as a boot loader."
/bin/sh or EXPLORER.EXE or whatever. I'm talking about the DOS kernel -- the stuff contained in IO.SYS in Windows 95/98.
Well, I'm hardly an expert on the internals of Windows, but I've seen fairly good evidence that there are still real mode parts hanging around being used in classic Windows. Corrupting parts of what used to be DOS using an old DOS program could destablize Windows 95. Maybe that wasn't DOS but some other replacement real mode code that happened to be equally critical -- I'm not sure there's a practical difference. Windows 95/98 are quite happy to fall back to real-mode DOS support for filesystem support, so DOS was still alive and well, even when if it wasn't used as much.
They were not sitting on top of DOS the way, say, Norton Commander or XTree Gold did, of course. Protected mode ("32 bit") drivers were used whenever possible, and the Win32 API was implemented using protected mode exlusively, as far as I know. But DOS was far from dead. It doesn't matter how small the code is if it's still a critical part of the OS.
"Once win.com executes, command.com is no longer doing anything."
If I remember correctly, COMMAND.COM wouldn't load at all if you didn't have an AUTOEXEC.BAT or CONFIG.SYS file -- the DOS kernel loaded WIN.COM directly. But COMMAND.COM provided few services to other programs in any event -- it was a shell, same as
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
Except that thats wrong (or at least dated information). Latest word is OpenGL will be fully supported. See http://blogs.msdn.com/kamvedbrat/archive/2006/02/2 2/537624.aspx for details.
Exactly the point of my post. I seriously am still not convinced to upgrade. I've tried several betas (even the leaked Longhorn a while back) and no matter what all I see is eye candy effects compared to XP.
Pleased to meet you, my name is Orion Blastar, I often write things that are sarcastic or humorous in my online posts, blogs, comments, etc.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
I was addressing the opposite condition: why someone would use the PC as a platform over a console.
That one's even easier: One would use a PC to play specific video games that Sony declines to publish and Microsoft declines to publish and Nintendo declines to publish. All three major consoles and both major gaming handhelds sold in North America still use the lockout chip business model to exclude hobbyist and other independent video game developers.
Again, the growth in testing effort is exponential. My error in the original article was to neglect to define what I mean by "exp()". Normally, exp(x) means e^x. In my original article, exp(x) means 2^x.
Last I heard you couldn't buy OS X. You have to buy a new computer and it comes with it.
So when major OS upgrades come out, how do you think us Mac users get them? A stork drops it off in the garden?
I've got some news for you...
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Recently, a MS update to my system caused all my printers to disappear. I don't need this aggravation!
Slashdot entertains. Windows pays the mortgage.
Perhaps you just haven't been around long enough to have seen MS in action, but we've heard that before.
.NET developing on Windows was an absolute nightmare. Since .NET that has changed completely, everything that you thought about Microsoft and it's technical credibility you can forget as of the release of MS.NET.
BTW my first computer was a commodor Vic 20... my first exposure to Microsoft was DOS 3.0. I know the history of Microsoft quite thoroughly.
I think Microsoft has become a very different company than what it was in the early 90's. It has a whole lot less to proove, and a whole lot more to lose and it has a revenue stream, and a warchest to acquire the best companies and human resources to deliver the best quality software to market. I can say that before
Dukesweeper?
or Mine Nukem 3D?
--- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..