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Boot Camp Flaw Leaves Some Users Fuming
Karl Cocknozzle writes "Some users who chose to install Apple's recent beta-offering of Boot Camp without basic precautions (like a full backup) have found themselves unable to boot their Macs to OS X. In a discussion thread on Apple's technical support Web site, more than a dozen users reported that Boot Camp successfully partitioned their hard drive and allowed them to install a working version of Windows, but then would no longer allow them to switch back. The download-agreement page for Boot Camp contains the explicit warning that Boot Camp is still 'Beta' software, and would not be supported if problems arose. On the whole, it sounds like the number of affected users is quite small, but may reflect a common lack of knowledge of what a 'beta' release really is: Not ready for prime-time."
While it is interesting . . . but if you have ever tried dual booting with Windows the first couple of times you always find out that Windows will boot and the other operating system is screwed up. I mean seriously - when has dual booting with Windows "ever" worked out of the box? It seeks always to dominate and does not ever like to share.
And people, people, please figure out what a beta is... sheesh.
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What a way to welcome users to Windows, with an introduction to our friend, Fdisk, as in now your disk is 'f'ed!
Anyhow, it is unfortunate, and hopefully it will be fixed shortly.
stuff |
I wonder how many of them simply didn't read the instructions that say "Hold Option/Alt down during boot up to switch". I know my boot camp defaults to windows. Minor problem easily overcome.
as folks have to buy new macs to replace the damaged ones.
The world is made by those who show up for the job.
Film at 11. Honestly how could people not anticipate these sorts of things based on the long-established pattern of problems with being among the first adopters of a new hardware/software system?
This is easily every mac user's worst nightmare.
Turning on your shiny new iMac to see it boot into windows no matter what you do.... the horror!
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
Caveat freakin' emptor.
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet
I've got an Intel Mac, and I've been trying to decide between using Boot Camp or XOM. I'd prefer XOM just because it's Free Software, but it seems like Boot Camp has more momentum among users. Does anyone know what the particular differences between the two are, and which one is better? In particular (to stay on-topic), is XOM likely to cause the same problem mentioned in the article?
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
Boot Camp is a highly educational product from the sadistic^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H mind of Steve Jobs. Those users came looking for an authentic Windows experience, and Apple delivered!
Do you like German cars?
Wow! I am like TOTALLY SHOCKED that something that Apple says is *beta* and that they refuse to, at this time, provide technical support for, is buggy!
After reading this thread, I was totally amazed at how many of the people didn't bother to back up their disk before installing something that alters your system's hard disk partitions. Duh. What do you expect?
My blog
All this excitement may to have led some users to install Boot Camp without taking many precautions, ignoring the fact that the software is a "beta" product, and that Apple said at the beginning it wouldn't offer technical support.
I guess they learned their lesson in a similar way most people learn that backups are important - by being caught without them. Shame on them for using a BETA PARTITION TOOL without doing backups.
Is this really news?
At least with these guys they have the option of doing an erase and install to restore their software to the way it was before. Some people are not able to boot their computers any more without using the firmware restore CD.
Please, please, please, before trying this type of stuff, RTFM...
One of these days i'm going to find this 'peer' guy and reset HIS connection!
It overwrote my MBR. It was a really good MBR.
Switch.
Really, this is Google's fault for releasing a series of very well understood, usable, secure, nearly flawless applications all under the "Beta" name!
Oh yeah, you don't need anything to make that happen.
After a torrid honeymoon , it looks like Microsoft and Apple are going to war with each other.
Sure, I backed my hard drive up, first, but I had no issues. The biggest pain was getting my copy of XP updated to XP SP2 for the install.
Although, I haven't really found a use for XP on my macbook yet, but it's there... taking up 15GB of valuable hard drive space.
So are we going to see commercials now featuring hip and annoying users who are so happy now that they've switched there Macs to Windows boxes?
Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
Karl Cocknozzle writes: ...common lack of knowledge of what a 'beta' release really is: Not ready for prime-time.
I take it Karl doesn't work for google?
:wq
Who uses a beta product to repartition their hard drive and change their boot records without any sort of backup?
Please tell me that Boot Camp at least *suggested* doing a backup before beginning.
That's such a minor number among how many likely tried it...plus yes, it is Beta software, still does that idemnify Apple for messing up folks hardware? But on the other hand, they knew they were flashing the firmware, and that's always a great way to scramble your system if there's an interuption.
;))
Couldn't they just replace some chip, or would the whole motherboard (logic board in Apple speak) have to be replaced?
(Now using Google Calendar BETA - hope it doesn't ruin my work laptop
fak3r.com
Beta has turned in to a marketing phrase by google and others. Prime time applications that people are encouraged to use, like gmail, stay in beta for years with wide spread adoption.
Most companies and even the open souce projects I work on have started explicitely not using Beta and calling all pre-release software alpha.
I just got my Intel iMac yesterday, and I installed Boot Camp and Windows on it. I am willing to be that what happened was these users didn't know what they were doing. When you use Boot Camp to install XP, Windows exposes the entire partition table when you are installing, which includes a couple of small system partitions. Chances are these users didn't understand that those partitions were necessary and they deleted them while they were installing Windows. It's not Windows' fault, it's ID10T error.
Since the number is so small, I wonder if they Overwrote their OS X Partitions when they installed bootcamp by making incorrect selection in Boot Camp..
This is not Apple's problem, it's user error.
...and they got it.
"Master boot record. It's what's for breakfast!"
There's a reason why they call it BETA. Some people are just so stupid.
It is funny on a couple levels, but in reality it is BETA software and has never been made out to be any different. News outlets and the media in many places did make it out to be a final product and I can see where a lot of people could have been led to believe so... but in the end it is what it is.
I just like the fact that it gets stuck in Windows... I mean if you're going to have a bug at least make sure your users aren't stuck in the competitions OS!
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
Elsewhere it was conjectured that these people had actually installed Windows XP over OS X.
See we Windows users are used to buggy code and have trained ourselves to prepare for such disasters with proper backups, etc.
I guess this is unchartered territory for maccys.
We're obviously going to hear a lot of that
A more interesting question: Is Google to blame?
Before everyone jumps on me, I mean this: Most people don't know the history of the term 'beta'... so their first exposure to it is through Google (where it is primarily used as a marketing term). To most people, in its context, it is just interpreted as 'new'.
To most people, does beta now just mean 'new'?
I attribute this largely to the dilution of the term itself, personally. The introduction of Web 2.0 seems to have convinced many users that "beta" now indicates that production quality software has arrived, but the developer would rather not be held liable for defects. It is quickly becoming shorthand for "use at your own risk."
Maybe Apple should have referred to Boot Camp as alpha software.
Do you like German cars?
It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
I heard that many of the "fuming" early adopters (which in itself is pretty silly) simply didn't follow the instructions closely enough, and ended up repartitioning their entire drive... including the existing partition that had OS X installed on it.
Apparently the world-will-make-a-better-idiot maxim has been proven right yet again. This sort of a mistake typically isn't even possible on non-beta Apple-provided software; I bet that idiot-proofing is somewhere on the post-beta software development schedule
I wonder if anyone who actually followed the directions closely have this problem.
But then what do they call Alpha software? What greek letter comes before Alpha?
It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
Someone should go to their door and kick them squarely in the nuts for being idiots.
It's BETA folks, means it might break things. Back up your data if you absolutely must play with it.
Hell, back up your data anyway.
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
Then Alpha would eventually be the new and hip Beta. If we constantly adapt the meaning of the words, they effectively become meaningless. If it is Alpha call it Alpha; if it is Beta call it Beta but if it Beta don't call it Alpha.
FTA: "This isn't a minor glitch, but a major problem. Barring erasing my drive and reinstalling OS X, I am stuck with an Apple laptop that only runs Windows," wrote a user. "I don't want solutions that entail using the command line. I would like something from Apple saying that they recognize the problem and are working on it." So you installed BETA software that changes firmware settings and repartitions your working harddrive and you won't just reinstall your system if something goes wrong? What's next, holding Apple responsible for you stubbing your toe on the 'sharp' G5 tower? Blaming them for Finder crashing on pictures directory with 10000s of pictures? Really, and that "I don't want..." comment really irks me; I know another Apple user and anytime I'm trying to teach him something technical (recently it was Markdown with SmartyPants) he told me; "I don't want to learn how to do that, it should just work like this" (as he proceeds to show me some HTML 3.0 code that he's trying to put on new Typo/Ruby on Rails based CMS site)
fak3r.com
...if it breaks, you get to keep the pieces. An no, this isn't the end of the world, it's not like you iPod Nano screen is getting scratched too easily!
fak3r.com
I propose the term "Xtreme Beta."
Do you like German cars?
It happened to a friend of mine. He purchased a HFS+ driver for Windows (Mac Drive). Upon installing the driver, he managed to mount the Mac partition under Windows and recover his personal files.
I wonder how many of them simply didn't read the instructions that say "Hold Option/Alt down during boot up to switch". I know my boot camp defaults to windows. Minor problem easily overcome.
From reading the posts at the Apple discussion forums, it looks like the problem has something to do with the partitioning and/or a corrupted swapfile.
OK, I'll grant that some mac users are as dumb as you are implying, but if you read the thread I posted above, you'll see that not all of the people with this problem are complete idiots.
It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
And we can put this squarely at Google's feet for perverting the meaning of "Beta". Honestly.
Sure, users need to take some responsibility for their actions, and having a clue. But the idea that beta bight be buggy but still basically works just fine is a direct result of Google's perpetual Betaware.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
I installed BootCamp on my MBP with lots of free space on the HD. It killed my OS X partition. But I didn't lose anything since I had made a backup. I lost an hour of time but that was it.
Course, now that most things are released as beta software, we should probably think of a new term to really mean beta. People seem to treat beta as 1.0 releases and get mad when things go wrong.
It's no wonder people are confused. Beta doesn't seem to mean "testing" any longer, it just means great product with a greek letter attached. Or at least that is what I have learned by surfing around at Google.
Anyone know how to say "downloader" in Latin?
l
download vt. extrahere (aliquid ex rete); prehendere
Here is a dictionary of contemporary latin, for future reference. http://www.obta.uw.edu.pl/~draco/docs/voccomp.htm
Yes, people still speak Latin, although none, I think, as first language. The biggest such community, of course, is the vatican, which has published a 2-volume reference work for modern words, called the "Lexicon Recentis Latinitatis."
From the article:
"I don't want solutions that entail using the command line. I would like something from Apple saying that they recognize the problem and are working on it."
Lol! I don't want to fix my problem, I want YOU to fix my problem!
I thought this happened to me. But it turned out that the Startup Disk control panel in Windows only worked once I booted at least once into OSX via the option key. I wonder if others had that happened. I was pretty scared because I, like an idiot, didn't back everything up. But now I have Age of Empires III goodness going when I get bored.
Are you stoned?
the major advances in civilization are processes which all but wreck the societies in which they occur - A.N. White
Omega (assuming that the letters are on a circle or if your mind supports wrap-around) ;)
The beta is EXTREME! like MOUNTAIN DEW!
I'm always wary of any program that resizes a partition that contains data, NO MATTER WHAT THE OS! This is one of those tasks that you should always be careful with--make full backups before doing it. It doesn't matter how braindead simple the software is. There's always the chance that it could screw something up. That said, it seems that the number of affected users is surprisingly low.
This guy's the limit!
This Alpha branding may be part of their blessed strategy: "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Jobs." iRevelation, 1:8
Didn't mess up my OSX install, windows works great (runs TES 4 Oblivion just fine @ 1680x1050 with HDR turned off).. I wonder if some of these users didn't pay attention to what partition they were installing Windows on...
You are the consumer! You have the $$$ - use your vote!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was tricked into converting my iMac into a Windows box. Just goes to show you--Microsoft is unstoppable. Now they even found a way to assimilate Macs into the collective.
KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!
Looks like these guys need some beta on what "beta" means... (Sorry, rock climbing joke)
They call it "bleeding edge software" for a reason, sometimes you get cut.
Anybody who thinks they can install an operating system without taking proper precautions (i.e. backing up a disk or being otherwise prepared for the consequences of messing up an install) deserves what they get.
Thank you! I was having trouble wrapping my mind around the concept of mental text wrapping.
It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
RTFM? Are you kiding me??? These are MAC people!! It's supposed to JUST WORK!
Seriously, though - this is what happens when a highly-publicized beta falls into the hands of people that probably shouldn't have access to it - one of the comments from the article illustrates the point nicely, I think:
"I don't want solutions that entail using the command line. I would like something from Apple saying that they recognize the problem and are working on it." (emphasis mine)
WTF?
Maybe Mac users don't really know what this "Beta" software really is? ;)
I just installed the Boot camp yesterday and have Windows on a Mac Mini. Part of that process required me to resize Mac OSX partition to make room for the Windows partition. Then it takes me to the Windows installer which has to format the new partition (Boot Camp doesn't do it) to Fat32 or NTFS before installtion can begin. The windows installer displays the partitions on the disc but it can differentiate the Mac OSX partion from the one for Windows. So, if someone split the drive down the middle during Boot Camp, he/she won't be able to recognized the right partition and they can easily reformat the one with Mac OSX. My suggestion is to partition the drive with two that are of unequal size. Use that to identify the drive during installation.
You don't have to be smart to use a Mac, you just have to be smart enough to buy one
Why are a few people here blaming Google? It's not Google's fault that people are too ignorant to know the meaning of a word.
My karma makes buddha cry.
I would say not only did they not understand the term beta, but they may have never heard the term backup either.
Really if you are going to mess around with your harddrive partition atleast have your important data backed up, if not the whole drive. Flash drives are cheap and easy to back up data to (if you don't have an other computer handy), as are external usb or firewire drives.
Think Deeply.
This is your MAC. This is your MAC on Windows. Any questions? Stoopid Is What Stoppid Does
You call it PPP: Pre-Production Prototype
Ignorance is curable, stupid is forever.
People, this is simply the lusers confusing the term "work" with the term "magic" as in "This stupid software doesn't !
Here will be an old abusing of God's patience and the king's English.
I blame Google for confusing the meaning of Beta.
I'm sure you're average mac head has been using Google Groups, Maps, Gmail etc "Betas" for ever with no problems whatsoever. Now they run into a real "BETA" and scream when it breaks! HA!
The need another term for whatever that extended state is that all their products go through after launching.
I installed BootCamp and on reboot all I got on my screen was...
I LILILI
LILILILILILILILILILILILILILILILILILILILILILILILIL
From reading thousands of posts on /. over the years, I have learned that people don't bother understanding what they're posting about before throwing out a karma-whoring Windows bash.
Slashdot - where whining about luck is the new way to make the world you want.
Break
Everyones
Technology
Assets
Best I could come up with. I'm under caffeinated today.
I'm going to go back in my box and will think within the limits of my box: MS Sucks Linux Good I read too much Slashdot.
Its isn't Apple's style to release a BETA of anything. Apple seldom released public betas, instead tends to only distribute betas to those select few that actually have a developers membership.
It is also unusual that one of Apple's Beta's would be so flaky. Usually they reserve that for release software and then quickly patch it.
While I was under the impression that Apple probably always had Boot Camp up their sleeves, something now tells me that this may have been a rushed effort to prevent too many illegit dual boot systems out there, or for Apple to get another 15 minutes of fame by announcing yet another innovative product.
Apple seems to live on 15 minutes fame intervals, and since their 30th Anniversary went by without so much as a peep from the Apple camp, I can only expect that Boot Camp was to keep Apple in the news for 15 more minutes until the next iPod version is rushed out the door.
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- "I don't understand why people put silly quoted comments after their already silly main comment!"
I haven't thought of anything clever to put here, but then again most of you haven't either.
Wow, this is ridiculous.
1. Very clearly states to back up all your data before use, and KEEP it backed up.
2. Very clearly states that this should NOT be used on mission-critical systems.
3. Very clearly states this is a beta and has flaws.
Beyond that, a beta is out there to FIND problems like this so they can be FIXED BEFORE final release.
This isn't news. This is just a bunch of dumbfucks whining about nothing.
The Alpha was probably internal to Apple, and the Beta was public.
Jobs sweeps his fingers in the air saying: "You don't need to boot OS X".
Apple fans turn to each other saying: "We don't need to boot OS X".
Jobs moving his hand again: "Go buy a new Mac"
Apple fans: "Let's go buy a new Mac"
Jobs sweeping his fingers a final time: "Move along to the Apple store"
Apple fans: "Move along, move along"
When something bad happens to your stuff, it sucks... no doubt. I feel bad for them.
However, experience and tech folks both indicate the same thing time and again, ad nauseum: backup up your stuff, backup up your stuff, backup up your stuff, backup up your stuff, backup up your stuff, backup up your stuff, backup up your stuff, backup up your stuff, backup up your stuff, still reading?, backup up your stuff, backup up your stuff, backup up your stuff, backup up your stuff, backup up your stuff, rinse-lather-repeat.
Had I tried this type of thing on any, computer:
1) Back up important/family docs to universal media;
2) Back up settings that are important to apps (apps that are used every day);
3) Back up my music library.
Then, cool dual-booting, neon-light-oscillating, or infra-friga-ultra-hertz-speed processor overclocking type stuff can be attempted (ESPECIALLY if the software mods the ROM/BIOS). If all else fails, treat yourself to a nice, clean install: wipe the drive and install the original stuff.
In summary, if one trashes one's data with ANY software (beta or otherwise), it is best if one has backed up one's stuff. I don't see this as Apple's fault (maybe they'll have to deal with the impact and PR, though).
A Passionate Independent Musician
Apple's slick boot camp website
This is not the layout or speak of a piece of beta software. It is a marketting page.
The top titles are:
"Macs do Windows, too"
"As elegant as it gets"
"Included Amenities"
I'm a complete retard, and I fixed it. The problem is that the installation of XP makes it the default partition on the machine. You have to reboot your Mac from the OS X install CD (hold down the c key while restarting to do this.) Then you go in and change the default startup disk to the one with OS X on it. Simple!
Then the default is the OS X disk, unless you hold down the option key to choose.
Attention Newbies....
In the tech world Beta = Free Research & Development (R&D) for the Corporation.
And sometimes if you are good & don't complain you might get a t-shirt (and maybe even a cookie!) Arrff!
... that is, if you install Windows first. I've had several successful experiences with Linux/Windows dual boots, but you do have to take precautions in doing it just right. I've found that your best option is usually to install the Linux boot loader on top of Windows, so that Windows essentially doesn't know that its far superior boxmate is actually in charge.
Just because it can't be explained doesn't mean it isn't true. Science fits into reality... not the other way around.
Other than the production quality part, isn't that exactly what beta means. Software that is ready for exposure to the outside world, but is not considered ready for full release. Use at your own risk.
I have no experience beyond my own installation, but the steps were to update the firmware, partition, then install. Each step is possibly disasterous, but the install was what almost got me. Good thing I've done more than one XP installation in the past. You know how the XP installation goes, if there's no XP/NTFS-ish partition, the XP installer asks which partition you want to reformat. My Mac Partition showed up highlighted, and not the new XP partition. The new XP partition was all the way at the bottom of the list of partitions. I ALMOST hit return and almost destroyed my MacOS X installation! I can see how a lot of people would make that same mistake. My problem, therefore, was really with the Windows installer, and my own lack of careful reading.
I think Google has singlehandedly undermined the idea of what a beta is to the vast majority of regular folks. That is, if they even had any notion of it to begin with.
Yes, Windoze sucks like that but dual booting has worked since ... forever. Dual booting with lilo worked out of the box when I first tried it with Red Hat 5.x, back in 1997. I imagine it worked before that. Today, live distributions can fix GRUB on the fly, even if Windoze messes it up. NTFS resizing is safe and reliable. If the live CD boots, everything else usually works.
The news is that Apple managed to get something wrong that's been working for a decade. I half wonder if you could use Mepis to fix the mess. If you can't now, you will be able to in a few months.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Where's the dude who always bitches that Ubuntu is a horrible, horrible distro because it "made his machine inaccessable"--that is, he was a dumbass and didn't backup, plus he was beligerant toward those in the community who tried to help, plus he lacks the basic knowledge to install ANY OS, let alone try a dual-boot Linux/Windows installation.
Maybe if he reads this, he'll realize that things can ALWAYS go wrong when installing a second OS, even on the reputedly uber-stable and very homogenous Mac platform. It's a process that should be reserved for those who are either very knowledgable or very cautious, if not both. Maybe he'll stop popping up in nearly every Ubuntu thread, re-telling his stupid story.
I'm not holding out much hope.
>>I don't want solutions that entail using the command line.
It sounds like the Mac Soup Nazi. God forbid someone would actually use the keyboard for anything. In fact all computers should only have a Mouse attached and a on screen keyboard in which you click letters.
"NO KEYBOARD FOR YOU!"
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New 2.6 kernels have HFS+ support. Just boot the mac from a recent live CD, mount the HFS+ partition under linux and retrieve the personal files. /dev/hdax [mount directory]
There is one problem, though, which can be easily fixed. For automount most distributions expect apple style partition tables, while the Intel macs use Intel style partition tables, and because of that automount does not work. Just check the partition table of the internal drive , with linux fdisk, identify the HFS+ partition (it has the code af) and mount the hfsplus partition manually:
mount -t hfsplus
A linux live cd is cheaper than Mac Drive.
I was installing Boot Camp on my MacBook. And it was, like, "beep beep beep beep beep".
....
... a bummer.
And then, like, half my operating systems were gone. And I was, like,
It was a really good operating system, you know?
So I had to install OS X all over again.
It was, kinda
I'm Ellen Fleiss, and I'm an early adopter.
Tuus crepidae innexilis sunt.
Yes, of course. I was just making a comment about the dillution of the term Beta. Most people are just treating it like production software now. Then the parent to my first post suggested calling it Alpha instead of calling it Beta. My post was saying that people shouldn't do that because it just makes the word Beta a meaningless corporate buzzword by stripping it of it's original intended meaning.
I had heard that the internal name for the Boot Camp project was 'Operant Conditioner', but I didn't get it until now.
Wow, you're a huge fucknut retard, aren't you.
"Hmmm, failed to dual-boot, you have."
Friends don't let friends line-dance.
I'd like to see Apple comment on this before I really believe it. Any dork with a mail tool could have created this whole thing. Add a bot net can you can have hundreds of complaining Astroturfers. It happens here all the time and I would not put it past the people who invented the "Apple Switcher". Anything is possible.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
During the resize process the HFS+ partition may be corrupted; the files are still there but the partition is not bootable anymore.
Put the Intel Mac in firewire disk mode and connect it to another computer as an external drive, and retrieve your files. The second computer can be a PPC or Intel Mac, a Linux or Windows machine (for Windows Mac Drive must be Installed).
The real problem I've seen lately is companies taking glorified betas (with lots of serious bugs) and passing them off as finished products. Passing off nearly finished products as beta is just fine in my book, by comparison.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
Okay, I was pretty frustrated that I had to hold option/alt to select my boot volume at every startup. Then I noticed a new control panel in Windows! It was called "Startup Disk". Wow! Just like Mac OS, it lets me select windows or OS X. Gee! I wonder if Apple put this there to allow people to select what they want to boot!
You are a Windows user, right? User of such an "innovative" system must always be having problems. Users of other systems, which happen to provide real innovation, are used to better performance. I'll believe this is a real apple problem and not Astroturf when Apple admits it.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Once you go windows you never go back.
I can throw a one hundred thousand pound walrus right through a brick wall.
I blame Google and their apaprent policy to keep production-quality software in Beta stage
The unexamined life is not worth living
Just goes to show that the old axiom is true....
"Always practice safe computing.... Wear a write-protect tab"
I say NO to Microsoft! You will pry my PPC Mac from my cold, dead hands :-)
This post is displayed with recycled electrons
If your computer already has Windows XP installed and you do not want to reinstall and reconfigure Windows and other programs, you need a third-party disk utility to resize the Windows partition and leave unallocated disk space for Windows Disk Protection. Note Microsoft does not provide support for third-party disk partitioning products.
How pathetic and typical. Bill Gates is letting everyone else "support" his OS and providing nothing but headache in return.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Of course companies like Google have completely changed the meaning of the term BETA as they use it to describe every new product they release because it sounds flashy and cool. People don't really think of BETA as what it used to mean as a result of perpetual BETA-states like Gmail and GoogleTalk.
Come on, people, get with the program. Anyone who uses Windows knows that *all* versions are initially released as a public Beta. It took XP until Service Pack 2 to finally come out of Beta.
So, it's perfectly understandable that someone trying to put Windows on a Mac would think Apple means the same thing as Microsoft when it says something is a "beta".
Sheesh!
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Senator Carl Schurz (1872)
And we thought Microsoft had no way of adding new people to the largest pool of Beta testers in the world.
You might be shocked by something that did not work if you used anything but Windoze. I'm genuinely surprised when an application fails in Debian testing. I'd be slack jawed amazed if it failed to boot by software error, but I understand that any M$ system has to be rebuilt periodically to avoid "bit rot."
I have my doubts about this whole thing.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
They're not "early adopters". They're *beta testers*: this is beta software (as evidenced by the word "Beta" in big letters on the webpage).
And in case you missed that it was a BETA, the manual has a warning on page 3 ("Do not use Boot Camp Beta in a commercial operating environment or with important data. You should back up all of your data before installing this software and regularly back up data while using the software.") before you begin, and again on page 4 ("Important: Before you begin, make sure you have a backup of the important information on your computer's startup disk.").
This isn't like people who were upset that Aperture 1.0 wasn't as fast as they expected. This is a whole 'nother league. This is people who are upset because they were burned by something that's:
- beta
- explicitly unsupported
- requires a firmware upgrade
- repartitions your drive
- installs a new operating system
- asks you to not use on production machines
- asks you to make backups first, *and* regularly thereafter
As long as Boot Camp doesn't maliciously delete your hard disk, I see no reason to complain. They've spelled it out as clearly as possible that this is dangerous software. What else could Apple have done?
Since the Windows installer can't be prevented from installing on the Mac OS X partition, I have to wonder whether these users didn't select the wrong partition, overwriting OS X? Becuase that's exactly what is seems like they've done.
I blame Debian. Both their "testing" and "unstable" both seem to work wonderfully.
I can also blame Apple, damn them for being reliable.
While we are making a list, how about those no goods at IBM or Sun. They do new and innovative things all the time and it just works.
How's a second rate operation supposed to make up excuses in a world like that? I mean really, it's just not fair.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Im posting this using a w2k fully updated install on a MacBookPro running the w2k OS in a window thanks to Parallel http://www.parallels.com/en/products/workstation/m ac/ works very well (no audio yet however) but a very stable and promising application even in this early beta state.
Dual booting is so very old-fashioned.
Usually "New" actually means "Beta"
When I install XP, it always overwrites the boot sector and I have to boot from a CD to put grub back there. How does Boot Camp work around this little "feature"?
The real problem here is that too many companies release working software and call it "beta". Google News and Gmail were "beta" for an extremely long time.
Companies need to stop using beta to cover their asses when they release a product, and only use it when the product is at high risk of serious flaws.
And before you say "well you can't predict if serious flaws will occur", know that you very much can, especially when you're a large software house with metrics up the wazoo.
This was on MacFixIt two days ago with some fixes:
1 100445524
http://www.macfixit.com/article.php?story=2006041
agreed.
I am convinced what these people are doing is pressing "C" on the screen where XP asks them to chose a partition to install Windows on, instead of choosing "C:". They are creating a new partition, but the Mac OS X "partition info" (which XP doesn't understands) survives, but you can't boot from it. They can recuperate but they have lost their info and now they have to completely erase the hard drive (filling it with 1s and 0s). I have helped a couple of victims with this method. Both of them ended with a correct dual boot machine.
Wonders will never cease to amaze me. I've had a similar "discussion" on the parallels forum. People installed the beta of Parallels Workstation, and found it caused disk corruption. This was limited to a very small percentage of the user base. This is not desriable behaviour, but the software is beta, what do you expect? They were arguing that it should be more stable if it's a beta, and I parried back saying: I think we have differing viewpoints on the classification of "beta". To me it means pre-release, test software, not verified for use on mission critical machines. It has undergone some testing, but not extensive in-depth testing. There may be minor issues, there may be major issues. It's released to allow it to be tested in a wider field than would be possible in-house. One of the Parallels team agreed that I'd put it rather well. I think my comment holds water here too. Apple said Boot Camp was beta, and to me *any* software marked as beta should be treated with caution. If you don't take precautions and you get caught out, you have no-one but yourself to blame. Don't try and pressure Apple to fix the problem, and don't act like a spoilt brat, threatening never to use it again, or no doubt in some extreme cases, stating you'll never use a mac again unless they fix it. The reference to Google and thier use of Beta as a marketing tool is quite possibly what has skewed the majority view of what beta should be, and that is worrying and wrong. It does not help other developers out there either as people will expect, as has become wildy apparent in both cases mentioned herin, that beta will be akin to release candidate software but with a few minor caveats, and not, as it should be, quite possibly, many minor and a few major issues/bugs/undocumented features.
http://www.apple.com/macosx/bootcamp/ is Apple's main page about bootcamp. It contains a detailed description of the product, and instructions about how to install it. There is NOTHING on that page about having to do a backup, or recommending to do a backup, nor, of course, about how to actually do the backup.
;-) ) DO a backup.
;-). Is the Wintel spirit already contaminating them ?
Actually the fact that Bootcamp is beta software is really de-emphasized on that web page. Clearly Apple's marketing department is pushing bootcamp heavily.
So what do you expect ? Dumb people don't even read the instructions, and do no backups. Intelligent people read the instructions, and do no backups. Most geeks are overconfident, and do no backups. Intelligent geeks (a small minority
I think the mess is mainly Apple's fault. They should
1- Emphasize more that Boot Camp is BETA software
2- Include the recommendation to do a backup in their install instructions, with a link to a detailed walkthrough
3- Ideally, make that backup an integral part of the install program
Computer companies have to stop assuming all their users are geeks, or that they have the right to make us take risks with our data for their marketing convenience.
I'm disappointed at Apple for that one. Apple has historically been a lot less bad than other OS makers
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
I read everything methodically, and did it "by the book" and everything ran like a clock. Worst thing is waiting for the long Windows formatting and install process.
Anyone who runs Beta software with all the warnings, and then see FAQs posted on the Apple Site and doesn't read them, and the 17 page pdf that is posted with Boot Camp and on the Apple Boot Camp section of their web site has no one to blame but themselves.
I was prepared to reformat the whole HD and start over if something glitched, but it didn't.
+1 Insightful was too obvious, so i gave you Interesting, because I think this bears more discussion...
A F'ing BETA Use at your own risk. Enough said.
Putting MS Windows on a Mac. For Shame.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
It's like the opposite of Apple's old "switch" commercials. Switch to windows and you're never going back....(unless you reinstall)
I think people thought they understood what their Apple is. It just works! With Apple having such a tight rein over both the OS and the H/W, plus the legend Apple promotes, I think it's quite reasonable for an Apple user to believe if it runs on one Mac, it runs on all Macs.
Obviously not the case here, but I'm not ready to blame the users for not knowing what a 'Beta' release is. Apple is the computer for the rest of us who don't want to know what a beta is, or what it means.
It doesn't really matter what Apple is saying about Boot Camp now in the fine print. That can't be expected to outweigh what they've been saying all along about their computers otherwise. Sorry Apple, it should have worked, or you shouldn't have released it. That's your legacy.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
They didn't have a backup system in place and they are blaming Apple. If they had a backup system in place like they should have they would not be moaning to Apple about this. Heck it is like someone suing Dell for a computer crash that took out their data. Come on people!
Uncle Mantis
Do you not understand what an unsupported beta is?
And with a three-digit UID too.... where DID a moron like you buy it, if not on ebay?
I was confused at first too, when rebooting my Mac always booted to Windows. Sure I could hold down the option key and select OS X, but that's a small consolation. It sounds like that's what's happening to these people. The solution is simple, if not poorly documented. Go into the Control Panel, Performance and Optimization (I think, it's under one of those things) and look for the "Startup Disk" control panel. This functions just like in OS X, and allows you to reset your default OS to OS X.
Anybody using beta software on anything other than a test bed machine, is an idiot.
I've known companies that don't even allow test bed machines to be connected to the intranet - in case something really bad goes wrong.
Beta software is just that - something to play with.
Don't put it on your main live system - where all your data lives...
Most people don't understand what beta means much less do they understand the concept of "RTFM" or "back up your data before installing."
.dmg file comes out the same day as the "Beta" firmware software it's a pretty good clue that it could be a problem.
If a "Firmware Restoration CD"
I would have licensed it with a giant 48 point font "CAVEAT EMPTOR, DAMMIT!"
I might know what I'm talkin' about, but then again, this is Slashdot...
And Steve Jobs said to the Boot-Camp users finding they like Windows for the number of programs made for it: "Oh ye unfaithful! Your punishment is to not be able to boot back to OS X!"
if you dont want n00bs to download it and break their machines
Excuse me, but if the only reason they made a gay guild was because people used the expression "that's gay" to refer to something being bad.... that's just stupid. That's isn't a WoW only thing, not even a web only thing, it's a freaking teen to college age thing. You go to any US college, at least on the west coast, and listen to conversations, I assure you, that you will hear that at least once. Wow though... way to forget the real world there. Oy.
I hope that this idea doesn't include iPods. I don't want them to make iPods bigger and I also don't want to think about the anus thing.
"On the whole, it sounds like the number of affected users is quite small, but may reflect a common lack of knowledge of what a 'beta' release really is: Not ready for prime-time."
Listening to Apple's propaganda machine running full bore 24/7 about what an amazing program this is I can see how a large number of people don't understand what "beta" means in this case. Especially with Google's liberal definition watering down the perceived danger in the public subconscious. Most beta software isn't marketed to the public in earnest.
It may not be supported, but it sure as hell is being promoted. I don't know... that in of itself sort of rubs me the wrong way, sounds like they want it both ways.
The first page of the instructions covers all the beta and backup warnings. All they need to do is place this information somewhere on the product information page:
"Warning: Boot Camp Beta is preview software licensed for use on a trial basis for a limited time. Do not use Boot Camp Beta in a commercial operating environment or with important data. You should back up all of your data before installing this software and regularly back up data while using the software. Your rights to use Boot Camp Beta are subject to acceptance of the terms of the software license agreement that accompanies the software."
Backup is part of daily computer use. Those without an automated backup solution are those who will lose data, whether they're re-partitioning, or they experience a hardware failure. That's just the way it goes.
Sounds like MS is engineering their own Mac viruses now :)
Thank Skuld-Chan(302449), he's the one who figured it out -- I still don't understand why he hasn't been modded informative...
Boycott Sony
HAAHAAAA!!!
The term Beta has been so overused with different software projects that it's effectively lost all its original meaning. How long did that Google Beta go on while people used it? How long was Mozilla at less than 1.0 while everybody and their family pet evangelized it over IE?
Nowadays, Beta is only used to indemnify software authors from responsibility in case something goes wrong. However, isn't that what the blurb that includes "NO WARRANTY EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED" is for?
So why use it?
It's a very dark ride.
why would any sane Mac user want to boot Windows in the first place? Are they fucking crazy? I hope they learned their lesson. Stay away from the dark side.
It wouldn't boot back into OSX for anything after I installed XP. I found that you have to go into the control panel, startup disk icon and set it to boot into OSX by default. Then you're able to use the alt key to choose when the computer starts. I don't think you can do that with it only booting into XP for some reason.
Agreed. Bootcamp + XP will be the _first_ thing I install on my Macbook. I'm not going to put anything else down on the off chance it screws up.
Fucking shitheads!!! Boot camp erased my entire disk!!!! I lost 11 demo recordings of my band's songs!!!! What the fuck has happened to apple??? FUCKING SHITHEADS!!!!
> I was pretty frustrated that I had to hold option/alt to select my boot volume at every startup.
So MacOSX does crash regulary or require regular reboots!
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
I've been doing that for over two years. The only caveat is that the freebsd boot loader calls Windows XP "DOS".
I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
Upon installing Windows on my Mac Mini, I found that the wireless ethernet gave me a Code 10 error. The device driver would not start. Some people had fixed this by downloading IBM drivers, but that wasn't working either. Turns out that people like myself who own Japanese Macs have different chipsets, and it seems the drivers don't work. It's a problem, I need wireless on the system.
i love language...
last time i checked, "career" wasn't a descriptive adjective...or am I a hobby slashdot reviewer?
"...that Boot Camp successfully partitioned their hard drive and allowed them to install a working version of Windows, but then would no longer allow them to switch back."
That is not a bug that is a preview of a future feature. It is well understood that Intel-bound Apple has decided to quit its own MacOSX entirely in the mid-future, instead of letting it run on any shameful generic grey-box PC. Within two or three years Apple will be just a manufacturer of IBM-compatible Wintel personal computers, famous for its stylish cases, keyboards, mice and flashy accessories like the holo-projecting iPod-IMAX.
There will be only one consumer OS standing above all and that one will be Microsoft Windows (tm), blessed be his prophet, the wise and right honourable Bill Gates.
"The real problem I've seen lately is companies taking glorified betas (with lots of serious bugs) and passing them off as finished products."
That's generally due to marketing departments, who see a decent feature-complete beta that appears to work, and then insist that the product is obviously finished despite protestations of programmers to the contrary.
I'm not going to change your sheets again, Mr. Hastings.
I'm very disappointed in Boot Camp. I downloaded it, and it won't even run on my iMac G5, so fanboys who claim that Apple stuff "just works" are lying. And if Apple really expect us to bother reading all that rubbish on their website, Steve Jobs can just think again: we expect to just download things and have them work, period. I spent a very long time indeed getting Boot Camp over my 1200/80 baud link, and it hurts to think it was completely wasted.
I'm a professional software developer, and that means I know when a program runs or not, and this one doesn't. I shall therefore write an extremely stern email to Apple telling them that they've been very, very naughty, and not to do things like this again without at least telephoning all their users and warning them.
I'm not going to change your sheets again, Mr. Hastings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwHMIxdDdu8&eurl=
I believe I had this "can't boot into OS X" situation happen to me and I followed the directions and did not nuke any partition nor did I select the wrong partition. It was pretty creepy -- I tried to boot back into Mac OS X and after the grey screen with the Apple logo, it went to a dark blue screen with the the spinning control and just sat there spinning. I forced a restart after awhile, booted verbose at first and it still seemed to get stuck during the Mac OS X boot process. Then I forced another restart and booted single user. I could see all of my files which was a relief although I did have a backup on our Retrospect server. I did an fsck which found no errors. I issued a reboot command and this time it booted normally.
At the top of page 3, in a big blue box is a rather clear warning:
Warning: Boot Camp Beta is preview software licensed for use on a trial basis for a limited time. Do not use Boot Camp Beta in a commercial operating environment or with important data. You should back up all of your data before installing this software and regularly back up data while using the software. Your rights to use Boot Camp Beta are subject to acceptance of the terms of the software license agreement that accompanies the software.
Unless I'm blind that does indeed mention backing up. OK, maybe it should be on the main page. However, If you don't read the setup guide then you're a tad foolish, moreso if the software isn't a release version. I read the setup guide, and I'd consider myself a fairly advanced user. The main reason was that my machine is partitioned and I wanted to see if BC would work in this environment, alas it does not.
These guys are so briliant when it comes to something about Apple or Mac OS X.
"It's your fault, look it has beta tag on! geez, read the instruction, you just didn't read it. Apple is doing the right thing."
When something happens to MS product
"omfg, it's MS again, geez I hate MS, Linux rocks. IE sucks."
Yeah, right...
Uh, yes, if you're multi-booting between OS X and Windows. Did you have a point, or were you trying to state the obvious and miserably failing?
Should only be fuming at their own stupidity!
...fewer noobs have a problem installing BootCamp than the more-experienced "experts". They're more likely to follow the cookbook procedure and not wing it on their own.
Why? So you can enjoy on your mac the feezes, virus attacks, crashes, configuration nightmares, and otherwise incredible unreliability of Windows?
GTFOOH.
Look. Those of us who have been working on computers as long as I have know when it says BETA it means "TEST SOFTWARE". It means NOT FINAL RELEASE (although some RC's (Release Candidates have failed more than the BETAs), it means Not released for production work. So get over it. You did not read the fine print, or you moved forward and trashed files you were not supposed to. Most users go whilly-nilly into hard drive maintenance and have no idea what they're doing. I am personally thankful that those people exist as some have helped pay for some of the toys I enjoy today. Thanks for being there, but get over it. Don't blame Apple because you took their software...BETA SOFTWARE and installed it into your ONLY laptop without backing it up. That's your mistake, not Apple Computers. I will however applaud one company for a beta version of software back in 1995 that allowed me to help rescue a movie known as TOY STORY while I worked for PIXAR. Symantec as they are now known, the software was Norton Utilities for Macintosh and a beta version of it helped me rebuild more than 27 hard drives containing the entire movie and all the final sound edits of that movie in time to ensure an ontime release as well as a single line movie credit for me as Macintosh Systems Engineer for PIXAR. But that was then and this is now and what Apple did release was a ground breaking piece of software that has received rave reviews because it does work. There are a few isolated cases...and they might include a warning to run a disk check on your drive before you install this, using disk utility to verify and repair problems, then backup, then do the installation, but knowing Mac users as I do, having fixed Macs since they shipped the first ones, they don't like to read directions. So...if you did not read the directions and you installed this and it trashed your drive, before you point a finger at Apple, look in the mirror and see who the person was who did the installation...YOU DID. Shrug your shoulders, and drag out that OSX install DVD, bite your tongue and reinstall your OS. Then wait till the final release of the software comes out and be happy that Apple even took the first step in making this dream a reality. Michael Murdock, CEO DocMurdock.com docmurdock@gmail.com (I really detest ***holes who hide behind anonymity because they're "career developers". BullSH*T!)
You fail at getting jokes.
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
"Space maker. Meet the most elegant hard drive utility ever."
Any utility that makes that kind of claim while in beta is sure to cause some problems.
find . -name "noobs" -print | xargs rm -rf && echo "pwnd."