Slashdot Mirror
Patient Revives After 19 Years By Rewiring Brain
dylanduck writes "A study of the recovery of a man who spent 19 years in a minimally conscious state has revealed the likely cause of his regained consciousness - his brain rewired itself around the injured areas into totally novel structures. It suggests the human brain shows far greater potential for recovery and regeneration then ever suspected." From the article: "There were ... significant changes between scans taken just two months after the recovery, and the most recent, at 18 months. Some of the new pathways had receded again, while others seem to have strengthened and taken over as Wallis continued to improve."
Welcome our new mutant self-rewiring brained overlord into the future.
"Surprisingly, the circuits look nothing like normal brain anatomy"
Well, it IS possible! Right?
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
it took me about 5 tries before I realised this wasn't about brain patents :(
Unpretentious Sydney reviews by unqualified Sydney reviewers
Did anyone else read that as Patent Reviews After 19 Years By Rewiring Brain?
that although Slashdot regulars generally are in a "minimally conscious state", for rewiring to occur there must be something to rewire in the first place.
Because I'd be pretty pissed if I spent 18 years in a coma and I wasn't psychic.
19 years seems like a pretty long time to keep someone laying around in a hospital bed.
Is it simply because he was not FULLY DEAD that they did not pull the plug?
Wow. The brain is without doubt the most interesting part of the (male) human body.
I saw a TV series about this a few years back... Does this guy have psychic abilities now?
I'm thinking medical researchers should work on ways to speed up this process. It could change many lives.
MidnightBSD: The BSD for Everyone
... was unavailable for comment.
/so going to hell
The Cosby Show is over.
...can he see into the future?
when I read the article, the first think in my mind is the euthanasia probleme... is it still relevent ???
There is hope for Slashdot after all!
See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
Neuroscientists in the epilepsy and learning and memory communities have known for years about the nervous systems ability to rewire and remodel in response to deafferentation. In fact, the reluctance to believe in this by other members of the neuroscience community (vision community) led to some two decades of misunderstanding of retinal degenerative diseases until we came along and demonstrated conclusively in the retina that remodeling also occurs. The deal is that neurons need input. They either get it via glutamatergic signaling or calcium mediated signaling in normal circumstances. When those signaling mechanisms are disturbed, neurons either rewire seeking additional input, or they die.
Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
After rewiring his brain he is now BS 7671 compliant and can be used in europe.
Does this mean that the incurably unintellectual politicians and religious leaders we seem to put in charge of everything can hope to rewire and do a better Job :-)?
John Smith http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085407/ unavailable for comment.
-- INTX Grouch. http://www.midnightblue.net
I would like to know what limits the rewiring rate in such a state? Is it metabolic? Or does the rate of new axon growth and synapse formation follow the normal growth rate of neural cells late in life - which, as I recall, is fairly slow?. This was obviously a long process, but was there a certain "critical point" reached during the rewiring that, once passed, assured recovery of functions? Is this subconscious dreaming or thinking that manipulates signaling, and could simple brain simulaion methods achieve a similar goal in the absence of such a process? Hopefully such a case generates academic interest that will help progress this area of brain research.
What exactly is considered "minimally conscious"?
Did he look really tired all the time?
Well, this is absolutley incredible news, but I am curious if some would see it as being a survival mechinism?
Except for Rip Van Winkle, I don't think that a 19 year period of repair and adaption would really lend itself to survival. Not to say that this isn't miraculous, but, I'm sure the recovery time will be significant.
Besides, would you really want to wake up 20 years older, with years of rehabilitation to look forward to? I would be more concerned with the ethics of keeping someone alive for that long.
I was in a real bad wreck in 1976, my brain hardly worked for a year or more, but I got better. I wonder what a scan of it would look like? Would it be wierdly wired like this guy's?
Few people I know would be surprised to find my brain was wired wierd.
Since then, the thought has occurred to me that I could have actually gone into a coma and the last forty years could have been a dream. But then, any of you could have had an accident and not know it, and be dreaming this. So there's little point in not behaving as if reality is real, especially considering the incredibly high probability that this IS real.
I wonder if he dreamed?
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
NEWSIE:
Tonight, on Eyewitness News: a man who's been in a coma for 19 years wakes up.
MAN:
Do Sonny and Cher still have that stupid show?
NEWSIE:
No, uh, she won an Oscar, and he's a Congressman.
MAN:
Good night! [Turns over and dies.]
If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
that guy is named Corwin, isn't he????
I don't have references handy, but IV paroxetine and fluoxetine have both been used in England to great success in the treatment of severe brain trauma. A quick Google shows that paroxetine (Paxil) is, in fact, what Wallis received. I'm not certain why the researchers are portayed as hedging so thoroughly (why else would a comatose man have been receiving antidepressants?) but suspect that was an erroneous emphasis on the part of the journalist.
"suggests the human brain shows far greater potential for recovery and regeneration then ever suspected."
Hardly. This took 19 YEARS. Thats hardly what I'd call potential. Yes its surprising
but given that time period who knows what alive but dormant neurons will do on their
own. This is unlikely to be an evolved response since in the wild a creature with this
level of brain damage would be lucky to survive 19 hours.
Let's face it, if he was thrown from a pickup truck during an accident he probably wasn't wearing a seatbelt.
Thinking about not wearing one for 19 years would probably make anyone change their mind.
To use while trying to get that adamantium fusion project going.....
load "$",8,1
We keep hearing stories about people who regain consciousness in spite of the fact that the 'experts' say they can't. It worries me a lot that the doctors are quick to pronounce somebody brain dead so they can rip out the organs. Often, as was the case here, relatives will insist on keeping someone alive over the objections of the doctors.
Of course the other reason I'm against organ transplants is that the Chinese harvest organs from prisoners.
Anyway, staying on topic, this kind of thing happens too often. The experts say they totally understand brain death but I don't quite believe them. I also don't trust them to tell me the truth after I found out that they have their own definition of "heroic measures". There is nothing heroic about "heroic measures". They ask you: "Should we take heroic measures?" and you being young and naive, reply that they shouldn't. So, on that basis, ask me if I trust the medical community about brain death. I don't.
happens to me after I've been forced to use Windows for a while.
"his brain rewired itself around the injured areas into totally novel structures. It suggests the human brain shows far greater potential for recovery and regeneration then ever suspected."
Cake or Death? Cake Please!
Management types brain usage is far lower than 3%
of the scans they performed to determine this. It'd be interesting to know exactly which structures were bypassed.
Why?
Well, being a university student in both psychology and linguistics gives me a certain....shall we say, schizophrenic view of language and the brain.
On the linguistics side, we have people who claim that Broca and Wernicke's areas constitute, from birth, a specialized language acquisition device, which requires only minimal input to intuit, from innate knowledge and ambient language, the grammatically correct structure of one's native tongue.
On the psych side, I seem to lean much more towards the connectionist viewpoint: ie, nothing is innate; reccurent patterns strengthen connections in a hebbian fashion, and theoretically any sort of neural network for problem solving is possible. Yes, the brain does seem to develop in fairly regular ways, but who's to say that's not because of similar inputs across the human population? We do, after all, share the same earth...
The patient did not speak for years, and then suddenly found it possible to do so nineteen years later - was there damage to the primary speech areas? If so, what rerouting made it possible for him to speak? Doesn't any rerouting (particularly if it does not lead to violations of principals of "Universal Grammar") give the lie to a strict Chomskyan viewpoint?
Neurology is utterly, utterly fascinating. It saddens me greatly that I haven't the training in biology to be useful at all in it.
I hate to feed the troll, but Terri Schiavo's brain was destroyed. She was blind, brain dead, and for all intents and purposes, a shell. There's a huge difference between her case, and this one.
...there was that well known case of Terry Shiavo (sp?), the young woman who was, like this gentleman, in what many people called a "persistent vegetative state".
Is it simply because he was not FULLY DEAD that they did not pull the plug?
Well, that COULD be a reason, though in both cases there was technically no plug to pull. They weren't on life support, so if there was a plug to pull it was on their feeding machines. Anyways, how "dead" you are is only one factor. The other is consent. If you have not made up a "living will"--some kind of legal document instructing doctors on how much effort to put into keeping you alive--then it is up to your next of kin as to how to care for you if you are unable to speak for yourself. Shiavo was kept alive for a very long time as her husband and her parents fueded over what they thought was the right thing to do. If she was not married, or her husband deferred the decision to her parents, then she'd still be lying in bed, minimally conscious and on a feeding tube.
It certainly seems like a horrible existence to me, and if the thought of living that way yourself is intolerable then you really should make up a living will document of some kind--I think it is the only easy way you can give a doctor the option to cease treatment on you from an ethical standpoint. I think the only thing more pathetic than having to live in a "permanently vegetative state" is seeing lawyers making a living off the situation as next of kin prolong their own pain. If only for that reason I'm thinking of a living will option.
That said, I personally know a couple people that have been seriously maimed or declared terminal and survived because of agressive, prolonged treatment my doctors that some people might object to. Now there is this case of a man who was declared by experts to be in a permanent minimally-conscious state waking up after 19 years. Makes me wonder if letting treatment continue wouldn't be such a bad idea. What if you got a second chance to live? I'm sure the implications of this case on brain injury research will be astounding. Does someone in a "minimally concious" or "permanently vegetative" state actually feel pain or discomfort? Are they even aware enough of their situation to know they are suffering? Would there ever be a chance Shiavo could've recovered like this man did? What physiological mechanism triggered the brain to completely re-wire itself when so many others never recover?
Perhaps that is an option for people to think of in a "living will"--if you find yourself in a minimally-conscious or vegetative state you could instruct that you be kept alive in the interests of scientific research into brain injury recovery. You could even instruct that some of your estate be given to fund such research at the same time. Sounds somewhat gruesome but many people still think the same thing of donating yhour body to be a cadaver in a junior anatomy class, or even having your organs harvested. If you get past such thoughts you could really be helping out others in the future.
For Bush and the right wing.
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
Over the past few years, I've steadily built up respect and mod-points to the point where I have a +1 comment bonus. Well, it was all for this one moment: so that I could say something that needs to be said, and yet still have my account and maybe even my +1 bonus survive the consequences. ...
You, sir, or madam, are embarrasingly stupid.
I mean think about it, last time he was awake was in 1987. The world has changed ALOT since then... I wonder how I'd feel?
"Internet? What's that? Computers, those are the huge things that big businesses and the government use, right?"
Great, now health care will spiral even higher as we keep vegetables alive forever, just in case.....
After spending 10 minutes sitting up in bed reading a 2006 newspaper, the patient was seen to be trying to beat himself back into a coma by repeatedly striking himself over the head with an oxygen tank.
"Proudly Posting Without Reading The Article"
"Just a bit of harmless brain alteration, that's all..."
--- Hot Shot City is particularly good.
There was a mexican movie (ficticious) about a 19-yo guy who went into coma in 1971 and woke up in 1992, having to cope with a grown up family, an older (and remarried) wife, and of course, new political times.
It was called "El bulto" (the bag). Very interesting movie.
Not sure which is more sad - the fact that this is modded +3 Insightful rather than +3 Funny, or the fact that no one seems to read the comments anymore...
Keeping him on support all this time must have been (or will be) an incredible financial drain on his family. I'd imagine that the medical bill was ludicrous, so hopefully he comes from a family with money. Being alive is great, but life sure isn't going to be easy considering:
a) When he looks into a mirror his face will be 19 years older... from 19 to 38 kinda sucks
b) His muscle mass will be negligable. After being in a cast for only 3-4 weeks after an ankle break my leg muscles had shrunk and strength decreased noticably
c) He's got a lot of educational catching up to do. Hopefully he worked as a carpenter, plumber, or some other job where old skills are still useful with some upgrading (if he was into computers 19 years ago he's gonna be way behind)
d) Likely there's still a bit of other funkiness with his body after 19 years and major brain damage.
e) Scientists are going to poke and prod him to research this regeneration.
On the plus side:
a) Medicine should be a bit better than it was then
b) Technology in many cases will be pretty cool. Even if he's bedridden for a long time it'll likely be a wonder for him to try out a modern console
c) That first post-vegetitive shower is going to be really nice
d) Add to that a real dinner after being on hospital food and drips for 19 years...
e) Somebody with a brain that regenerates that well will be of interest to science, which is annoying but possibly good for paying the bills.
He has to be reminded each day that he is 40, not 20. He visibly hits on his daughter because she's cute apparantly and he can't get it into his head that she is now 20.
Blar.
i remember a similar story like this on television once (in the uk) where a girl (for some reason) had an empty hole in the centre of her brain. basically her brain had adapted around the hole and functioned normally when the doctors said she would have serious brain damage.
The main reason it sucks to be in acoma for 19 years is that imagin trying to stand up after wards you havent walked for 19 years! And getting used to some of the new stuff we got would be hard because it feels like we have advanced in technology. I know if I was in acoma for 19 years I would have to go back to high school or collage. Thats just what I think.
At a guess, the ability to recover after 18 years of coma is an evolutionary accident, either taking advantage of the same mechanism as recovery from less insults, or reusing the self-organizing techniques that wire the brain in the first place. If the latter, there's a strange implication that the coma ward should be the least quiet part of the hospital, jammed with multisensory stimulation.
>would you really want to wake up 20 years older, with years of rehabilitation to look forward to?
For a fictional but insightful look at what 10 years of culture shock woul be like, see Spider Robinson's "The Time Traveler". A priest is held incommunicado in a banana republic prison for a decade. From 1963 to 1973.
For me the answer is "yes". The pain of adjustment and the effort of rehab would take most of my strength but would be a lot less than what burn patients go through. There is too much to see and do to just give up and die.
For this to be useful in a production environment (out in the wild), this "damage control system" which is
would have to do that kind of work within hours max keeping in mind above all the dangers of predation, overheating,
undercooling or plain running out of fuel. Humans don't carry energy reserves for 19 years and what's
a hungry predator to do when it stumbles upon a fresh ripe meat vegetable?
ate his Wheaties!
From TFA:
;-)
In 1984, 19-year-old Terry Wallis was thrown from his pick-up truck during an accident near his home in Massachusetts, US.
So he lived 19 years in a normal state and 19 years in coma. Probably a coincidence or even an editorial mistake. But what if these numbers are connected? Perhaps his brain returned to its earliest possible state and then started reading memories in realtime, filling the gaps or doing something with memories linked to the gaps. Or, restoring communitation skills based on the memories of people couumnicating. Something like fsck
Good story. Too bad it is three years old.r e/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/South/07/07/mute.no.mo
Actually small children can have at least half of their brain removed and still function normally in later life. It's pretty amazing! I once read about a man who had had to take a brain scan. The scan revealed that the only brain tissue he had, only covered the inner surface of his skull, apparently he was born like that, and he functioned normally. Of course I cannot find any documentation about it now, but the link I've provided describes a "normal" procedure. It can cure rare epeleptic disorders and other things. ;)
Mind boggling
Any technology distinguishable from magic, is insufficiently advanced.
"I used the thing the brain was the most amazing organ in the body. Then I realized, well, look what's telling me that!"
What if I do the same thing, and I do get different results?
This google search reveals lots more info on hemisperectomy.
Any technology distinguishable from magic, is insufficiently advanced.
I saw a TV show about this guy some time ago (PBS? Discovery? National Geographic?). Yes, he is awake, but the poor guy is in very bad shape. He has very limited use of his body; his brain is unable to store any new information for more than a few seconds; and his frontal lobe is basically gone so he has no sense of boundaries when communicating with people. His 20-year old daughter is his primary caretaker, and since he thinks he's a 19 year-old and is unable to remember that she is his daughter, he keeps asking her for sexual favors and groping her any chance he has. He is also very verbally abusive towards her and pretty much everyone else.
Yes, he's no longer in a coma, but he is far from functional.
I couldn't find the actual published study that the New Scientist article (sort of) referenced (maybe it hasn't been accepted for publication yet?). However, I did find this article by the auther mentioned, which is a very readable look at a few cases of brain-damaged patients (including an explanation as to why Terry Schaivo isn't in the same category at all). Unfortunately it doesn't go very in depth into the details of how Willis' brain rewired itself, which I was interested in. Still, very informative reading.
19 years ago the original Battlestar Galactica would have still been a fresh show with state-of-the-art effects. We should show him the new Battlestar Galactica just to watch how fast he goes back into another coma!
... and in the DRM, bind them.
shows far greater potential for recovery and regeneration then ever suspected
Even i know it should be "THAN ever suspected" and i'm not even a native English speaker...
"A careful bedside examination at 6 months [after the accident] would have unequivocally said he was not in a vegetative state," says Schiff.
From TFA: a difficult process considering he believed himself to be 19, and that Ronald Reagan was still president.
...)
So this guy's in coma for 19 years, and he wakes up, and he asks, "How's President Reagan doing?" And the doctor says, "Sir, Reagan is dead." And the guy says, "Oh God, no, that means Bush is President!"
(The original was Eisenhower and Nixon. The more things change
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
So this guy basically used his brain as an advanced FPGA. I wonder how long it will take until Xilinx sues the heck out of him.
So basically all previos cases where doctors pulled the plug on basis patients are braindead (veggies) can now be classified as murder, since the brain has potential of fixing it self. It is just a matter of time.
Somehow he has cobbled together a random assortment of other brainwaves into a working mind.
No one cares what your captcha was
Houston TX, USA
In Korea . . . umm . . . only old people welcome classic overlords of Soviet Russia? Or something?
I remember sigs. Oh, a simpler time!
Again, this is the problem when people use grand generalizations about complex things like the brain without knowing specifically what they are talking about. Hemispheres have basic redundancies built into their structures. That's just not the same thing as removing key structures entirely, from both hemispheres.
Oh, and more importantly, we're generally there talking about very young developing brains. Early on, the brain is far more plastic and undifferntiated: like a poetic jell-o mold that hasn't set yet, it hasn't taken a shape that can be destroyed. But that doesn't last in adulthood. It's also worth noting that the structures being removed in these cases are, in fact the most undifferntiated and general purpose parts of the brain (the ones dealing with overall higher consciousness): not the specific structures I was talking about. A lot of people seem to think that hemimegalencephaly involves removing half the brain, but that's not really the case at all.
All I have to say is that the Greg Stillsons of the world better watch out!
Doctor: Mister Wallis, you've been in the coma for 19 years
Wallis: Well, as long as people keep having promiscuous sex with anonymous partners, while at the same time experimenting with mind-expanding drugs in a consequence-free environment, I'll be sound as a pound baby!
Well, that's nice. Good for him. Hope he recovers well.
The existing cases of repair are all partial, my guess being that this is because using a section of brain that's not designed for the task is (a) suboptimal, and (b) taking away resources from somewhere else. If, however, the brain had the option of wiring up a totally unprogrammed set of stem cells, it is possible it could do more.
IIRC, there were experiments in the US with injecting stem cells into the brains of Alzheimer sufferers, in a fairly uncontrolled manner, which did produce some indication of improvement. This would indicate that the brain can make at least limited use of such cells with no further assistance. If you were to combine raw stem cell injections with a therapy that actively promoted the brain's self-repair mechanisms - once such therapies are discovered - then maybe, just maybe, a more complete recovery in a shorter timeframe would be achievable.
For those neuroscientists shaking their heads in despair, I would point out that I am fully aware that each of these observations is a data point in isolation, and that extrapolation from a single data point is almost invariably a Bad Idea. On the other hand, Slashdot hasn't been bought out by the Oxford University Press (yet) so wild speculation is definitely in.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
A guy barely conscious was able over 19 years to have is brain do some drastic rewiring because he had some working parts. Now enter stem cells where his neuroscientist might know the damaged areas and can inject cells that will differentiate and repair the damage in a shorter time than 19 years, he might have woken up in time for the 2000 election. But lets not forget the point that you have to have something to work with. We can not allow the Schiavo zealots to say "hey, if that guy woke up then she could have woken up". No more arm-chair physicians giving their expert opinions.
This kind of highlights the hypocrosy of the Bush Administration. They have a culture of life that won't let a brain dead women die. But at the same time not allowing research to go forward that could have major benefits for many diseases or injuries. Spinal cord injuries, Alzheimers, etc are the cases in which stem cells could have the greatest and most visible benefit.
Its ashame that in the US we spend alot of time talking about solutions while real solutions never get enacted.
Euphemism, what is that a euphemism for something.
This guy was recently featured in an often-repeated Discovery Health special about coma & brain damage. "The Man Who Slept for 19 Years"n athanjones.blogspot.com/2005/03/man-who-slept-for- 19-years.html+%22discovery+health+channel%22+%22Th e+Man+Who+Slept+for+19+Years%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=cln k&cd=3 blog [google cache copy] describes it pretty well.
I don't recall if they specifically said for this guy, but the other patients in that show were in JFK Medical Center, NJ.
g y/04coma.html?hp&ex=1152072000&en=31378eedf4a85e5c &ei=5094&partner=homepage Pictures and other links there.
DHC website doesn't have a lot on it, but this guy's http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:fl6GNF-iDgsJ:
This show was done shortly after he woke up about 2 years ago. At that point, he had come out of his 19 year coma, and refused to beleive any time had passed. He thought Reagan was still President, and he was still 19 and able-bodied. Every day was the same, and he had no learned memory. Like the blog says, every day was "groundhog day".
Apparently, his family refused to give up on him, and dragged his limp body around to family events - even hunting and fishing trips. - I think this is odd, but amazing. I doubt I could have this much faith.
Really creepy was how his 19 year old daughter was dealing. Since he thought he was still 19, his 40-ish ex-wife (she gave up and moved on) wasn't anything he was interested in. He was flirting with the daughter, though. She was uncomfortable, but knows that Dad doesn't realize what he is doing.
NYTimes also picked the current story up. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/04/health/psycholo
Slightly conscious state, permanently vegatative state. What exactly do these words mean? Ask a doctor to explain, and they will be unable to do so, except for symptoms from such a state. Crap, Minsky has infiltrated my brain, arggghhhh!
19 years for all basic purposes equals a permanent vegetative state. The idea that anyone should wait 20 years for the slim chance, which may decrease every year, that someone will come back from being a vegetable is rediculous. Americans have to admit that there are some extremes that we shouldn't take. I hear in Europe under some of their universal health care plans that patients know for certain illness that would be an extreme drain on resources the government will not cover them so that those resources can be used most efficiently for the rest of society. In a system in which WE DO have limited resources I think many people would trade getting some primary care to keep them out of the hospital verse one guy getting 20 years to MAYBE get better.
If this guy is some independently wealthy guy than he and his family can wait 100 years. But lets not hold pretend 19 years is even a reasonable time to wait even if you knew for sure he could come back but at way less than 100%.
At minimal there should be a two census rule.
Euphemism, what is that a euphemism for something.
I believe the difference between this case and something like Terry Schiavo is that there was still measurable brain activity in this guy so he wasn't brain dead.
Persistent vegetative state is not the same as brain dead.
Says the Wikipedia: "Brain-death is often confused with the state of vegetation." Brain dead means the person has no higher brain activity. Vegetative basically means the person does have some brain activity, and is in a wakeful state, but has no awareness of the world.
If Terri Schiavo had been brain dead, there would be been pretty much no issue to discuss. US law and practically all religions regard brain death to be death of the person. So the bodies of brain dead people are kept on life support only for purposes of organ donation.
People in a vegetative state are considered under US law to be alive. However, people also have a right to refuse medical treatment. So in terms of legality, the whole battle was over whether her husband or her parents had the priority in communicating Schiavo's wishes in this matter.
There was also a religious dimension in that the Catholic Church considers food and water not to be a form of medical treatment. Otherwise, the Catholic Church agrees that it is permissible for a person to refuse medical treatment.
Finally, there is a minor medical dispute -- really just an area in which we're still ignorant. A significant fraction of the time that people have been diagnosed as vegetative, they later clearly regain some awareness and are seen not to be vegetative. When this has happened, it almost always happens within 30 days. The medical question is whether people can sometimes actually recover from a vegetative state, or if these people were not truly in a vegetative state to begin with.
I guess it depends on what kind of psychic you're talking about... but I would assume the ability to recieve and broadcast... In which case it would be the perfect cover. Who's going to suspect the guy in the almost-coma of being the one secretly controlling the world, eh?
Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
Corresponds to the book I am reading, the chapter about phantom limbs. Neat stuff.
After losing a limb, within 24 hours the old brain area controlling the limb may be taken over by the near-by brain. The short times strongly suggests that the re-wiring is using existing connections rather than growing new pathways. Puts a new spin on the old folklore that we only use 10% of the brain.
The cross-wiring creates strange results, such as some people hearing a ringing in their ear when their brain sends the signal to their eyes to look left (or right). In this book is the first time I've seen the phrase "literal hallucination."
In the Penfield brain map, the feet controls are next to the genital controls. Explains a bit right there. Earlobes, similar.
In the most scientifically exciting event to the author, a droplet of water trickled down the face of an owner of a phantom limb. He described the track of sensation down the flesh where the unused brain control had been remapped.
If you need text styles to communicate then you don't have a message.
(Emphasis added)
Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
Sam Kinneson?
Terry woke up three years ago, and the story was rather widely reported back then. In fact, Terri Schiavo has, in her time, often been compared to Terry - in fact, their medical cases share almost no similarities.
3 -5.html
2 5
1 /143438.shtml
The story itself has woken up in 2006, for reasons unknown. You can find a better article than the one of the front page at http://www.nature.com/news/2006/060703/full/06070
This everything2 article is probably the best I found about Terry, including updates from 2004: http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=14758
Also, some updates on the family's fight with health services, from 2005: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/6/2
This guy wasn't ever brain dead. Full brain death is when even the stem is toast - you need life support just to breath.
Persistent vegetative state is when brain function beyond circulation, digestion, and respiration are gone.
It's been a few years since a close relation was in a coma, but as I remember, there was 20 criteria, from pupil response to awareness of pain, that a patient had to fail (in two tests, something like 30 days apart) to be considered vegetative. Mrs. Schiavo fit into this category.
As I understood it at the time, minimally conscious state was when one passed most or all of the criteria, but did not regain consciousness for a long period of time. None of the articles specifically state, but we can assume that this guy passed most of the criteria not too long after the accident. Mrs. Schiavo did not. At least not according to the doctors at the hospital or nursing home. (I think her parents may have testified that there was pupil response, but....)
Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
By all rights, I should be completely unable to listen or speak a spoken language. That part of my brain is simply broken. Yet, after 20+ years, I can naturally converse like "normal" people. My brain had rewired itself.
Datsun is Nissan!?
Ford still makes crap!?
Rush is still making music!?
* Dies *
My wife and I have living wills that allow each of us to request the termination of artificial life support for the other in the event that one of us is in a "persistent vegetative state" for some period of time. The period of time is open to interpretation and, hopefully, medical advice. Our fear was that some of our relatives (of the religious fundamentalist variety) would seek to keep us alive indefinitely to fulfill their own agenda. Now it looks like that might not be such a bad idea. 19 years is an awfully long time to be bed-ridden, but as it turns out, death lasts even longer.
The Russians have won. They have made the world a cesspool of distrust, greed, fear and hate.
Indeed you should have modded down, but slashbot moderators are just as immature it seems. I don't mind critisism levied IAW reasoned debate, but you simply shot out an insult without any support. FYI, both sides had medical experts on thier side. Its a shame Shiavo's family claims didn't get the same attention from the media that her husband did. In fact, a priest who was present with Terri during her last days had this to say about her: "I will never forget my hours with Terri, both before and after her feeding tube was removed. She responded to me, and she responded to others who visited her. She laughed, she tried to speak, she returned her parents' kisses, she followed us with her eyes, she closed her eyes when I prayed with her and opened them when we were finished. Medical examiners can offer their conclusions because of what they saw, but none of that changes what we saw. But both we and the medical examiners were looking in from the outside. Any honest medical expert will admit that there is so much about the human brain we still don't know." Now that hardly sounds like PVS to me. So who am I supposed to believe? The guy who's paying out settlement money to continue her medical care, or the medical staff who probably wanted her organs, or the priest and family who supposedly have Terri's best interests at heart?
When my daughter was about 2, she started learning to read using methods developed by Glen Doman.
h tml. Contrast that with the information by Dr. Daniel Amen http://www.amenclinic.com/ and check out the "Brainplace" link. Dr. Doman wanted to treat the brain, and characterizes approaches like Dr. Amen's as "treating the symptoms", yet Dr. Amen seems to believe that Psychiatrists and Neuro-whatevers should actually LOOK at the organ they are treating and take appropriate action for now. Both have a very good record. Personally, if my kid was suffering from something like ADHD, I'd want to relieve the symptoms as soon as possible on one hand, but I'd hate to spoil the chancs for a permanent cure on the other.
I was totally impressed to find out about the recovery work in neuro-stimulation that Dr. Doman was doing; people with paralyzing strokes learned to speak and walk normally, a boy with no brain on one hemisphere learned and acted normally, people with brain injuries were recoveing normal or near-normal function.
This story illustrates a dramatic case of something that we might have had a handle on for over 40 years! I'm disturbed by the mention in the article that the patient was refused a re-evauation at a later date.
To see some other information regarding lesser brain damage, see http://www.iahp.org/Brain_Injured_Children.203.0.
"The mind works quicker than you think!"
Can we expect one day that a synapse will appear between his two neurons?
Experts say that for the first time in many years he has shown some brain activities when he was at Elvis's Graceland. Others think it's more a matter of reflex...
Those lil' things are to be credited for this.
The Doctor would say that his neural pathways were reconfigured by advanced Borg technology.
Bless the collective.
640KB of virtualized ram will be enough for everybody
NOW it all makes sense. speaking in a language we can understand...
I am unique, just like you, and you, and you...
like, uh, I never knew my brane had wires.
I for one, welcome our new, not so funny, overlords!
oh look! a petrified stephen king covered in hot grits, gotta go!
I shot an insult, because in the end, that's the only thing that serves any purpose. Just as with the evolution debate, there comes a time when you realize that certain viewpoints have made themselves completely immune to any reasoned argument and you will only be wasting your time if you engage them.
Now, I happen to love reasoned argument. But if by some quirk of cosmic chance you happen to be a reasonable Schiavo groupie, then you can blame your irrational raving fellows for ruining any hope I might have that there is any point in having a discussion on this issue with someone that makes the same vile accusations and lousy arguments, or thinks that quacks and Senators watching videotapes is the same thing as "medical experts" or are innocent and without their own agendas or biases.
Um, I had my first personal computer in 1981. An Apple II.
So I wonder who looked after him? Being the caregiver can be almost a jail sentance.
If I'd been awake after such a long time and I know there are many people behind be, happy that I woke up, getting all the support I'd get ... I'd be happy at that time. Who knows he can work from plumbing to computers, depending on his own persistance and the support he will get with this.
Living in this society is a very depressing thing; for sure if you are thrown 19 years further in life; although; it might be a nice view for him, depending on how he will think and develop; so why not give this guy a chance in life instead of expecting the worst ?
--- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
This story came out more than three years ago. A year and a half ago I saw a documentary about it. Not to say it isn't interesting, but it's been covered... Isn't there a statute of limitations or something? I wonder how hard it would be to sneak "Scientists Invent Amazing New 'Atom Bomb'" or "Greeks Discover Earth is Spherical" past Zonk early in the morning...
Sendou Wave Kick!!
There is a big difference saying you use 10 percent of the minds potential and 10 percent of the brain regions.
Can you actually claim you are using 100% of your minds potential?
Of course not.
I found this Urband Legends "myth debunking" very unclear, unfocused and confusing. It is more engaged in ad hominem attacks, ridicule and stigma against alternative views. How convenient to use UFOs to win an argument!
There are no real facts or deep enquiry into the subject. Instead the claim is that PET scans show activity in all regions of the brain, therefore we are using "100% of our brain/brainarea/brainmass/mind", or whatever point is trying to be established. Everybody who thinks otherwise is an idiot and clearly out to sell you something. End of discussion.
That is not a constructive debate or debunking, displays ignorance and dogma, and no real interest in finding the truth.
For myself I can happily state that I know for certain, from experience that we are not using 100% of our mind capacity/potential. But why should I try to convince someone who has obviously not experienced it, and is only ridiculing what he doesn't understand?
The phrase of only using 10% of the minds potential, for me, is an inspiration to better myself. I can only pray the author will someday understand this too.
And if our brain was just an interface for our conciousness (spirit, ... ) to use our body.
Now if one's brain is damaged, can't you consider that one's conciousness will try to repair its
interface ...
As soon as we put our conciousness at doing something specific we develop a specific intelligence : body intelligence, mathematical intelligence, emotionnal
intelligence.
Even if there is nothing scientific in my explanation I can't stop wondering wether we are a really just a brain tha will rott and die or if we are more that that.
So who am I supposed to believe? The guy who's paying out settlement money to continue her medical care, or the medical staff who probably wanted her organs, or the priest and family who supposedly have Terri's best interests at heart?
How about you go with the autopsy?
The brain itself weighed 615 g, only half the weight expected for a female of her age, height, and weight. Microscopic examination revealed extensive damage to nearly all brain regions, including the cerebral cortex, the thalami, the basal ganglia, the hippocampus, the cerebellum, and the midbrain. The neuropathologic changes in her brain were precisely of the type seen in patients who enter a PVS following cardiac arrest. Throughout the cerebral cortex, the large pyramidal neurons that comprise some 70 percent of cortical cells--critical to the functioning of the cortex--were completely lost.
The cortical neurons, the ones that do the thinking, the ones that make a person a person, where completely GONE.
Kidney and other various tissue that still lives and works does not a living person make. Kidney and other various tissue that is dead or gone not make a person dead. The only organ that matters, the only tissue that matters, the thinking cortical brain neurons where completely gone. Not just dead brain tissue, but gone brain tissue. Dead and disintegrated. Terri died so long ago that she had long ago returned to dust. The only organ that mattered had died and disintegrated and returned to dust long ago.
All that remained of brain tissue were autonomic reflexes and a shriveled mush of non-thinking support cells. The blood vessel cells remained, the connective support cells remained, but the thinking neurons were gone. A small shriveled lump of empty goo.
So who am I supposed to believe?
Had you looked into the facts and the science of the case, had you paid attention to the calm reasonable rational court review and rulings on the case, it should have been easy to spot that one side of the fight was the "reality based community" and had the facts of reality on their side, and tha the other side of the battle were irrational crusaders with a serious reality-disconnect and reality-disinterest.
The autopsy proves that the people claiming that Terri was awake, alive, concious, and most of all responsive were either lying, or more likely self deceiving about it. People sitting there watching Terri's body breath and blink and twitch autonomically who convined themselves that some random blink or twitch was a meaningful concious reply to their questions and actions... convincing themselves and deluding themselves because they so desperately wanted to beleive, people who so desperately wanted to ignore and dismiss all of the facts of reality, people who so desperately wanted to ignore and reject the science and all the evidence.
I'm sorry to beat this horse to death, but the only organ that mattered, the thinking brain, was completely gone. Period. End of story. Gone. It is unbeleivable how many people are in such denial about that fact. No thinking brain tissue means no mind and no person and no possibility there was any concious response to anything.
And it's obscene that politicians and activists took this sad sad case and turned it into a circus and political football. That people took this sad sad case and abused it for their peorsonal political aggrandizement.
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Waking up thinking that it is still 1984 and realizing that it is now 2006, I wonder if this man would think that he has been transported through time into the future. And found that there's still no flying car.
From the article: "It suggests the human brain shows far greater potential for recovery and regeneration then ever suspected." Well, both from professional and personal experience this is not the revelation they claim. Yes it is significant but not unprecedented. It is a well known fact that patients are known to recover lost function up to 19 years after the initial insult to the tissue (in this case that would be both grey and white mater). This is as well documented in the medical journals and case studies.
On a personal note, my mother had an AVM (arterial-venous malformation) that blew (aka a bleed). She initially had the classic signs of a CVA (Cerebral Vascular Accident) which includes both bleeds and anoxic conditions [aka stroke]), in her case that was hemiplagia on the left side (contralateral to the side of the insult to the brain tissue) with ipsolateral (same side - right side) facial palsy with the associated somatic paresthesia (numbness). This abated completely within a little over a year at around 90% and complete recovery in around 3 to 4 years. However, one function she lost was thermal regulation (couldn't sweat or shiver/goosebumps)and had to be careful in semi-extreme temperatures.
Well, guess what, about 18 years later she noticed one hot day she started to sweat. Since then her ability to thermal regulate has steadily being increasing.
One of the key factors in a patients recovery is therapy (physical, occupational and in some cases speech). Many MD's instill a feeling of "get used to it" mentality in their patients. Therefore patients generally accept this, especially in light of the changes in body perceptons. Their bodies don't function as they did prior to their incident and statements by medical professionals (usually MD's) reinforces their sense of hopelessness. This is especially true if the patient in a comatose state, but still shows positive brain activity. The mechanism of recovery are still a mystery. But medical literature has many case studies that support my argument. The object is to normalize as much as possible with the realistic expectation of gaining back most functions, but realistically as to not instill false hope (which is why most physicians are perceived as pessimistic in these cases).
The strange part of this is the number of years - 19. For some reasons regardless of whatever function you regain, if you don't get it back within that 19 year period you generally won't. (generally)
>I guess it depends on what kind of psychic you're talking about... but I would assume the ability to recieve and broadcast... In which case it would be the perfect cover. Who's going to suspect the guy in the almost-coma of being the one secretly controlling the world, eh?
I don't really think its a secret. Except that the psychic part is not verified.
©God
This article reminds me of the episode of Futurama where Fry was infected with worms. The worms ended up "rebuilding" Fry's innards. Once again, bridging the gap between sci-fi and reality.
http://www.thirdrake.com - Best Webcomic of all time.
be developed to cure many brain diseases but so could the stem cells and I'd like to think that stem cells would prove to be more efficient especially when talking about diseases like spinocerebellar degeneration.
I thought this was common knowledge, so I was therefore unsurprised that when I lost function to brain damage years ago I was able to recover much of the function before the damage got cleared away and replaced with new brain tissue. Of course, the last part was the most surprising to me...
Retired from software... maybe. Sort of.
...in his head saying "Re-route. Alternate power."?
YOU are not funny.
You could use 100% of your brain and still have a successful "re-wiring" - what would be going on is your brain is sacrificing less important functions for others.
For example - you may have a horrible stroke and lose your speech and sight - but because your brain is still recieving neural impulses from your eyes, and auditory ones from your ears, over time it could "re-wire" itself through the good tissue to have at least partial restoration of those functions which are both very important, and also very path-stimulating in the brain.
But you may not be getting those at zero cost - some of those paths may have previously been used for other things - hand-eye coordination, or some long-term memory storage, or motor memory for some skill set. Any of which could be lost, and you may not even realize it. It's not like we can run a regression test on a person's brain to ensure that after it's repairs it knows everything it did before.
It wouldn't have taken the man 20 years for the re-wiring to kick in if they had given him more nutritious breakfasts made of boll weevils, Honey and sprinkled with Oxy-Nectar. After just 3 years, why, he could have become a GREAT INVENTOR and then gotten stomped into The Great Big Lebowski oops La Brea Tar Pits hole by the current Whitehouse Administration trying to secure its control over everyone's "affordable energy" dollars. 3 years, not 20, so the poor injured man laid there not being fed any special nutrition barrage for 17 years longer than he should have, eh? Yep, that's the American Medicine Juggernaut at work.
Why do women fake orgasms?
They think we care.
Don't be fooled by brain rewiring. The man born without a conscious actually got one after a battle with the Phoenix. Everyone should know this after watching Xmen3 the whole way past the credits.
God spoke to me.
Wow, I thought we were over this topic. I'm gonna remove folding@home as my "backup" for when seti doesn't have any work. Back to climateprediction for me!
Man, you really need that seminar!
How come I never get mod points when there is something like this to mod up... (sigh)
The family and thier representatives probably presented thier arguements emotionally because they felt that would be the most effective means of convincing people to intervene on thier behalf. The problem is that popular media largely ignored them and the family's reps didn't have the capability to subvert them to reach the public. Do yourself a favor (and others) and visit the web site hosted by the priest who I was quoting: http://www.priestsforlife.org/terri/index.htm. As for watching videos, it doesn't take a genious to figure out that someone who responds to you is not braindead. The evidence suggests to me that the medical experts supporting the family are right and that the populace in general has bought into a position developed and presented by the medical experts hired by Terri's husband. I've seen vidoes of her myself that confirm what the priest said. Hired 'experts' appear to be using the brain scan as evidence that Terri was PVS and purely reflexive whereas any random person off the street could look at the videos (do you think the governor would intervene without strong evidence?) and realize that she clearly was responsive, not PVS.
I'm sorry to beat this horse to death, but the only organ that mattered, the thinking brain, was completely gone. Period. End of story. Gone. It is unbeleivable how many people are in such denial about that fact. No thinking brain tissue means no mind and no person and no possibility there was any concious response to anything.
Indeed I have looked in the facts of the case, moreso appearently than most people. The real shame is that not even one video (and I've seen video on EWTN), which would have been enough to destroy the claims of the husband's medical experts, got the same air time by the press. Quite honestly, considering the maltreatment Terri recieved from the medical community (being familiar with the facts of the case I'm sure you are aware of the malpractice claims suscessfully brought against her caretakers), it's amazing she was responsive at all. You should read the opposition before regurgitating such completely inaccurate information. You can start by visiting the site hosted by the priest who was with Terri and her family through to the end: http://www.priestsforlife.org/terri/index.htm
regurgitating such completely inaccurate information
.
Excuuuuse me? Are you claiming that I misquoted the autopsy report - particularly in that the cortical neurons were "completely gone"?
Or are you some selfdeluded fanatic who simply puts blinders on and sticks his fingers in his ears and pretends that certain peices of reality do not exist when you dislike that reailty? Or are you some conspiracy nutcase claing that the coroner committed a crime aand outright lied in the autopsy report and that the rest of the government and the rest of the medical community are in some grand conspiracy against you?
Terri's cortical neurons were
COMPLETELY
GONE
That is a fact of reality. The only organ that mattered - the thinking brain neurons - were completely gone. There was nothing left that could think. Nothing left that could remember. Nothing left that could see. Nothing left that could feel. Nothing left that was concious. Nothing left that could conciously respond. Not only dead, but long dead and disintegrated to dust. Nothing left but empty body tissue with autonomic reflexes.
video
I can take hundreds of hours of video of a weather vane blowing randomly in the wind easily dig through it glueing together bits and pieces to MANUFACTURE a presentaion "prooving" that the weather vane is "responding" to things I say and "prooving" that the weather vane can see and conciously follow a colored ball as I wave it back and forth.
Some people have attacked the part of the autopsy report about the occular regions being completely destroyed and resultant physical absolute blindness - that "they say it's OK to kill her because she's blind". No, of course not. The reason absolute physical blindness is a killer point proving you wrong - the reason absolute physical impossibility of any sight at all is a killer point proving you wrong - is because it just proves your favorite video is nothing but a manufactured lie. That even if we assume Terri were still alive and concious in there, that it would be a physical impossibility to see and conciously track a colored ball being waved back and forth. That the video was in fact nothing but an editing deception, exactly the same way you can create an illusion of a weather vane "seeing" and tracking a colored ball.
air time by the press
Oh christ. Public oppinion polls to not determine reality.
What matters are physical tests and the knowledge/understanding/information of actual medical experts. And it all got dragged through the courts and the courts impartially revivewed all of the physical tests and all of the physical evidence and all of the experts. The courts not only saw the video you cite - but the courts ALSO got to see the UNEDITED video. The courts got to see the hours and hours of non-concious autonomic random twitches and blinks etc. The court got to see that questions were asked over and over and over, and that objects were held up in front of her over and over and over, and that sooner or later those non-concious twitches will coincidentally align with the questioning or the presented movent. That it wasn't Terri conciously responding to the people around her. That Terri's eyes would regularly dift back and forth no matter what, and that it was the people making the tapes who were learning and copying and presenting those patterns over and over.
Or maybe you're right. Maybe all of those evil "educated elite" expert doctors and expert coroners and professional judges are all in some grand conspiracy to commit a variety of crimes from fraud to murder. They all hate God and they all hate you and they all just like to lie and they all just like to commit random murders. Yep, they're all conspiring to get you.
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The courts not only saw the video you cite - but the courts ALSO got to see the UNEDITED video.
The courts or the judge? The Gov also got to review the evidence and evidently came to a different conclusion. Again, there were medical experts on both sides of this issue. And believe it or not, you aren't adding anything to this. You're just regurgitating the opinion of some guy and his crew of doctors and lawyers who had financial (and possibly other) incentives to see her die. Would you rather take the word of someone who started dating other women while his wife was still alive? Would you date other women if you cared to see your own wife live? You need to seriously contrast that with the evidence presented by Terri's family and friends, people who's motives for Terri I find much more credible (who according to your testimony were lying).
As for the video, I assume that all that thorough research you did made you aware that access to Terri (even for her own family) was strictly limited by her husband. Yet you seem to think that Terri's family and friends shot hours upon hours of video of her (presumably without her extremely attentive care takers taking notice) in the hopes that they might get one shot that would trick people into believing she was responsive.
Then again maybe you are right, and Terri's family, friends, doctors and lawyers and most importantly, God and the church, were all conspiring against Terri's husband (and Terri as well if you believe her husband).
Reserve your personal attacks for yourself, it might do you some good.
You have not disputed that the autopsy turned up that Terri's cortical neurons where completely gone. I have stated that more times than I care to count. You have never claimed it was wrong. You have never made any argument against it. You have never answered or even addressed it at all. You simply glaze over it repeatedly and pretend it doesn't exist. I even put it in bold text over and over, and you still pretend it doesn't exist. I even broke it out a separate from any other text and spelled it out
one
word
at
a
time
and you still pretend it doesn't exist. You don't say it's wrong - you just mentally blot out inconvienent bits of reality.
You have also simply ignored my position that when a person's thinking brain is completely dead and gone, that person is completely dead and gone. You have not disputed it. You have not addressed it at all. Again, you simply ignore it.
As far as I can see, unless you dispute at least one of those two points are conceding that Terri was dead and gone years ago. As far as I can see, if you do not dispute at least one of those two points then the entire issue is resolved.
It doesn't matter who you want to attack as an evil liar, and it doesn't matter what evil motivations you want to allege against anyone them for why you think they are/were be evil liars. All of your ad-hominem attacks against those people are nonsensical and/or irrelevant noise if Terri was already long dead and gone.
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The video makes the autopsy results irrelevent, rather it supports the position reported by the priest and the other medical experts -- that we don't completely understand how the brain works. Moreover, we don't know wether or not it might have been possible for the body to stimulate or regenerate any missing function, especially if good medical care had been afforded to her (which appearently was not the case). You rejected the video evidence; that is within your personal perogative. However, the evidence indicates to me that even if Terri was long gone, *someone* was in that body...