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European PS3 Launch Delayed to 2007
An anonymous reader writes "Sony has finally admitted that the November release date for the release of the PS3 is unfeasible. Specifically, it will not be available in any PAL territories until March 2007. Sony cites '(a) delay in the mass production schedule of the blue laser diode', forming a critical part of the much-maligned Blu-Ray drive. With the Xbox 360 having been released for almost 6 months in overseas markets, and the Wii looming large, can Sony afford a delay like this?" Update: 09/06 17:58 GMT by Z : Just to make sure you caught it, the announcement includes the word that the U.S. will only be getting 400,000 units at launch in November, with Japan at 100,000 units. Go Sony.
Sony really seem to be shooting themselves in the foot lately, even if this isn't their fault.
I've got ask now, does anyone else feel that Sony are completely screwing up everything with the PS3?
No really, no troll, no Xbox fanboy'ery - seriously, what the hell is going on with Sony?
I've been following the news on these new consoles from the beggining, there's always been a fairly steady stream of rumours, proven to be true / false, comments, press releases etc, however one thing has stayed solid throughout, Sony keep having bad stuff to say.
There's the price, people speculated for ages, Sony prepared us for a high price with the "you should get a second job, because our console is so great" - the Sony fanboys responded with "they are using reverse psychology, it's going to be well priced, you'll see" (hell not just fanboys, game journalists said this too!) - then bam, 600$
Then they've got 2 units (sku's you Americans call them?) - why?! Don't copy Microsoft it was stupid of them too, it dilutes the market and makes it harder for developers to target a SINGLE stable platform, which is what console gaming and development is about! (idiots! both MS and Sony, bloody idiots!)
Then there's enforced blu-ray, which they may see as a bonus, we may or may not, depending where our loyalties lie.
Then there's the removal of rumble, then there's the loss of GTA4 as an exclusive, then there's delays to PAL regions, then there's rumours of less of them coming out at launch than suspected (it goes on!)
Then there's developer rumours "totally difficult to code for" then there's more rumours "isn't that much more powerful than 360" then there's screenshots pretty much showing it's really not that substantially better
Also the unit is quite a bit bigger than the X360!
The unit is using bluetooth, rumoured to have shitty latency for wireless controllers
On top of all the rumours and debates / speculation, every comment from Sony exec's seems like they are making it up as they go along, not really 100% solid on anything? - it sounds like a small nitpick but for goodness sakes I'm serious, I really am having trouble beleiving anything, some of the things they confirm / deny or speculate it can do seems like the person at the time is just thinking "that sounds good!" and the poor saps in engineering need to figure it out.
Case in point, E3 last year the "mock up" PS3 came with a boomerang controller, it had 2 HDMI out ports, it supported 7 controllers and had 3 network ports, it was capable of pretty much anything according to Sony.
At the time, I call them on it saying due to Microsoft surprisingly announcing the X360 much more complete than expected 1 week before E3, Sony panicked, pulled out a beta unit from the development cupboard, stuck a backplate on the empty plastic box and grabbed a beta controller to boot!
The back of the 2005 E3 model was a joke, it was like some dickhead manager was telling the illustrator designed, no no copy and paste, we want more of that port and more of this port, more ports! yeah! - 2/3 of them removed now, hummmmmmmm
You've also got Sony far less capable of making a decent unified online system like live as well (no, not an MS fanboy, see my post history, I'm just a cynic)
I do NOT WANT Microsoft running the gaming industry then nickel and diming us gamers with microtransactions and monthly / yearly fees, so I need Sony to do fairly well, but they are arrogantly riding on brand loyalty assuming they will be the best period, I feel they could be wrong.
(Yes, I'm also aware Sony would nickel and dime us like MS with microtransactions and fee's HOWEVER I firstly don't feel Sony would do it as aggressively and secondly with competition Sony can at least keep MS in check)
Either way the PS3 (in my opinion) thus far has been a shambles, a complete ballsup of epic proportions, I hope it does work out and I hope it does drop price, but at this rate who knows.
[NELSON] Ha ha! [/NELSON]
Circumcision is child abuse.
"And the Wii shall inherit the Earth."
Bummer
and
Wiiiiiiii
"" How about taking the safety labels off everything, and let the stupidity-problem solve itself? """
Why bash when they do such a fine job of looking stupid all by themselves?
I'm struggling to remember the last time they did anything right.
http://www.totalvideogames.com/news/North_America_ And_Japan_Also_Hit_By_PS3_Component_Crisis_10566_0 _0.htm
400 000 units for USA and 100 000 for Japan - the launch starts to sound not-so-spectacular.
Or is this clever marketing?
The only reason they're using Blu-ray in the PS3 is to try and take over the HD media market. So, yes, this is their fault. If the stuck with DVD which is more than adequate for next-gen gaming, they wouldn't be having this problem and the PS3 might have already launched.
But their insistance on trying to abuse a monopoly they don't actually have is causing them to become more and more of a joke and less and less likely to be even relevant this generation. If it winds up being a choice between a $300 Wii now and a $600 PS3 months from now the choice of which to buy becomes even easier than it was before.
You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
Nothing's changed:
The PS3 was originally not going to be released in Europe until Q1 2007
It then got brought forward to November 2006
It then got put back to March 2007
Not really much of a delay in my opinion...
Summation 2
I have no intention of buying a console (my PC does me just fine) but after reading this there's no way I'd ever hand over my money to Sony. They just can't seem to do a single thing right.
If it's too difficult, I can't understand it !
...not UnfeasAble.
I always thought that the industry saw Europe as more important than the US as we tend to buy more of the Loco Rocos and Katamaris rather than the generic First Person Shooters. Guess I was wrong.
Summation 2
...that doesn't sound like the sony I know. Oh wait, yes it does.
Short answer: No Long answer: No, they can't afford a delay like this.
games journalism blog
It's here: http://malfy.org/
Wait, I'm confused. An article critical of Sony that's NOT posted by Zonk? Wow, Sony might actually be in trouble!
I'm posting this on pure speculation as I've not investigated but AC I don't know if you're aware of this but apparently Sony is very much in the RED financially, they are betting the whole lot on the PS3 and blu-ray adoption.
There was even a large article recently on how Sony the entire corp NEEDS the PS3 to win or they are stuffed.
Assuming this is true, this means the PS3 doesn't just have to keep the gaming division up but the rest of Sony too.
The PS2 was an amazing success overall and it might be capable of that but it's dwindling now, what about the PS3, can it save Sony so they can get back on track? Who knows but based on what I've heard from them, I'm not touching that thing until it's at least PS3 revision 3 or 4 with some problems fixed and software released.
But then I thought, well... I dunno... somehow, everything is.
Meta will eat itself
This may be tired and old, but I think they are pulling a Romero, they did really well at first and then they got arrogant and it all went to hell.
You mad
The question should be what is this delay going to do for Wii/ Xbox 360? If one of those can get a foot hold in the next-gen market before the PS3 is launched it could really cause problems for Sony.
Just as well I'm not interested in buying... I look forward to the demise of the once great PayStations!
1) Point railgun at foot
2) Fire
3) Profit
[Insert pithy quote here]
Basicly they have to compete with MS. MS has lost Billions in entering the console market and continue to lose tons of money at it. They can afford to do this because of the windows/office cash cows. MS still has no plans to make money at this (the game business) for a number of years.
How do you compete with a company that can afford not to make a profit? Sony and Nintendo have to be more inovative to compete. Sony went for interesting new architecture and the lure of a Hi-Def drive. Wii with the new controller. Sometimes when your cutting edge you experience delays.
Some things people never point out is that XBOX has a recuring cost to get the most out of the console (Xbox live). Also XBOX lasted 2 years less than the ps2 as a platform. Who knows how it will shake out. I like cheap and Fun so it will probably we a wii at first. then a playstation (I have a lot of ps2 games I play occationally, so it makes sense for me).
even if Sony bombs on the PS3, they're still in this market because they're so firmly embedded in many other electronics markets.
The problem is that Sony's home electronics divisions are losing money like mad. Those won't save them. What can keep them afloat even in the case of a total flop is their music and movie business.
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Very few games companies do treat us with respect (perhaps Microsoft, and western game publishers, but with Japanese stuff we seem especially screwed). Unless a console is region-free, I'll probably get a US system from now on, they seem to get a far better deal.
10 PRINT "LOOK AROUND YOU ";
20 GOTO 10
What a strange way to say that because of "manufacturing volume issues" the PS3 will only be available in Japan and the US, which are indeed NTSC-territories.
In France and most former East-Block states in Europe the old analogue color television system is BTW not PAL, but SECAM.
The true power of the Xbox and PS3 will rather come to light on digital displays with a significantly higher resolution than any of the traditional analogue formats.
Wasn't planning on buying one for months anyway (let the suckers beta test it), but dumping a whole market for 6 months has got to hurt. Same thing happened with the PSP. It may well explain why PS3 hype has been pretty low key for something which is barely two months from release. Let's hope it goes well in the territories that it does sell into.
The best part of this is that several retailers here in Australia have been advertising pre-orders for the PS3 (notably $big_chain_store) and some of them were aiming it as a possible Christmas present for the kids, this is REALLY going to piss off any parents who were dumb enough to do so (although a pre-order for an A$1000 console is pretty high up there as it is).
/* FUCK - The F-word is here so that you can grep for it */
Just as a point of clarification: the console launched in Europe (at least Western and Central parts) on 2nd December, meaning that it's just over 9 months, rather than coming up to 6. 6 Months is only true for places like Hong Kong (who don't even have a PS3 launch date) and Australasia.
This is important because it means that just like the US and Canada, the Xbox 360 was alone at retail last Christmas (in the 'next-gen' space anyway), making this year the second time in Europe it hasn't had to face its major competitor.
Mattb90
Editor, allaboutgames.co.uk
The Walkman, the PS1, and eventually the PS2. They do an excellent job on LCD TVs and are highly rated by Consumer Reports for it.
But like some other poster pointed out, the PS2 was advertised as God's own gift to the realm of gaming. When reality hit, they had to endure a storm of bad publicity. Yet they won out in the end.
Right now the Wii is a favorite son and the PS3 is a black sheep. But reality is fickle and all we have is endless speculation. The delay in Europe is nothing by itself, but if they fail in their NA & Japanese launch as well...then no amount of Fanboy pride will save them.
All they need to do is launch in their largest markets. 500,000 consoles or 4 million they need to get the product out the door. That alone will probably prevent complete failure. Success, well that's up to the actual console to generate.
I know, it's standard Slashdot fodder to talk about something big, important or well-known coming to an end, but I am really starting to wonder if Sony will be able to survive all of this stuff. Frankly, I don't want them to. But just off the top of my head, what does the general public know about Sony?
* Rootkit CDs
* Exploding batteries
* Delays and Failures associated with their new proprietary DVD format
* Delays and Failures resulting from the previously mentioned DVD stuff
Sony used to be widely held up as the gold standard for quality and innovative design. As far as I was concerned, Sony "invented" everything. (I know that's not true, but still.) But with all this crap going on, it would seem that the company is not unified and is pulling itself apart by having too many leaders. Solutions that would seem obvious to everyone else, Sony is just too thick-headed to make happen. For example: Put out the PS3 with a REMOVABLE DVD drive that can later me upgraded to BlueRay when it's available. They can virtually sell the thing twice! Seems pretty obvious to me and I'm just a consumer with a worthless opinion and no experience in the industry.
i gave up reading this article. well, i couldn't even find the article in amongst the ads in the first place
Does this news really change anything? Initial production woes are a normal event and not a PR blunder of the sort Sony is known for now. If they can get out even 500,000 consoles worldwide then they've at least stepped into the race at last.
The war, such as it is, will not be won or lost for several years. And unless Sony pulls a Dreamcast or 3DO, then they will at the least occupy the space the XBox occupies now. They cannot occupy the Gamecube-like slot since the price is not right for that scenario.
Personally, I think they'll be first, second, or gone.
Mmmm, the Wii water IS warm. And golden, just like beer.
Yes. Thank you. Welcome to the conversation. Glad you could make it.
The funny thing is that Sony will sell their 100k units at launch while M$ still hasn't sold their 160k units they started with.
Wasn't the complaint with the 360 that it was a worldwide release, and therefor nobody had enough 360s to fill store shelves? Looks like a damned if you, damned if you dont scenario to me.
... for Nintendo to announce a Wii launch date. Speculation has placed the launch between October 2nd and November 15th, and many users are already foaming at the mouth to get a pre-order in. It's only a matter of time before Sony buckles and announces either mass-shortages on the PS3 this holiday season, assuming they even get it out the door by then.
Nintendo has a perfect opportunity here to dominate a market it's been trailing behind in for the last decade, especially with folks like those who are holding out against the XBox 360 as their next game console. But they need to act quickly on this before anymore addictive next gen titles (like Dead Rising) end up falling into Microsoft's lap.
Needless to say, I'm keeping a close eye on sites like EBGames for the instant they open the pre-order floodgates on the Wii.
8==8 Bones 8==8
I am thinking at this point they need something to come out with the Ps3 that really shakes up the community some. Something which will make people go to the PS3...
The problem is the more they delay, the higher the price, the bigger that "something" needs to be.
At this point I think it has to be a coupon redeemable for either a pony, or a years pass to a seedy massage parlour or you choice.
I'm a fiscal conservative, it's a pity we don't have a political party anymore
Another company goes and makes the mistakes of getting in an arms race, confusing engineering prestige with marketability, and selling themselves on it by believing projections of a growing market. So they make the biggest, baddest thing out there, a real technological wonder, and at the same time the market shows little interest in growing that way, all those technological improvements create bottlenecks in their supply chain so they can't even deliver to those few who would buy it.
HD media market is a market that doesn't really exist. Developers might claim that 8 gigs or whatnot isn't enough, but they're probably wrong: Big Content Kills, driving up development costs for marginal returns in unit sales. Home users might like the idea of HDTV, but it's so expensive and screwed up as a market that most people aren't interested.
Thankfuly, nintento is getting better (just a little, but it's the beginning). Europe received white and black DS lite, that
Now, IANAB, but from what I understand of this, Sony is in the black.
Grammer Nazis - I mod you "troll" unless you actually add something on-topic. Yes, I know I have mispellings in my sig.
Uh? How are these things not game console related?
They probably wouldn't care any way.
Because Nintendo is sitting on a fucking huge pile of cash, because they never lost any money in their whole history (which includes the console-gaming part).
Because 15 years of Game Boy and 2 years of DS along with hugely popular first-party games made them more money than Microsoft could ever lose on an Xbox iteration
Because even though the sales were not quite high they still made a benefit out of the N64 and GC hardware sales alone
Because since third-party weren't interrested in the N64 and GC games, only Nintendo games were released, and only Nintendo games were bought, and pretty much everyone would buy the new Nintendo game, and Nintendo would get millions of sales for every single game.
Because it's never dug in the hoard of cash it made from the NES and SNES days either.
Don't worry about them, even if they come dead last worldwide with 10 million sales (which I highly doubt), they'll still be perfectly fine.
Oh, their stock would take a dive, no question about that.
But they'd still be perfectly fine.
"The way we can tell it's C# instead of Haskell is because it's nine lines instead of two." -- wadler
...first everyone's complaining that at the price Sony is selling the PS3, no one is going to buy it.
Then everyone's complaining that there aren't going to be enough for people to buy.
Personally, I think the price issue was never going to be a real problem; the delays in getting large number of consoles to market, though, I think could really hurt them in this console generation.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The DelayStation.
In the end the one single truth is that a console is made or broken on the games released for it. This is what really irks me. I can't get rid of Windows because of games. It's likely I'll have to buy a PS3 for the same reason.
Xbox 360 is STILL ignoring entire genres of games even though that was the entire reason for the first one's failure. The Wii excites me and I'd gleefully buy it..except if it's anything like the gamecube it will probably have all of 2 or 3 titles that I actually want to play.
So basically unless Nintendo stops going for a niche market the PS3 is sure to do well simply based on the fact that it has no competition at all for certain very popular genres.
It's very possible that all 3 consoles are going to end up controlling their own niches this generation. A fairly disgusting fact for those of us who are interested in the niche it seems the stupidly expensive PS3 will control.
Now, anyone who reads my history will know, I have no love for Sony. As much as I'd love to see them fail, I want to be honest in my posts and anaylsis. So... I am left wondering, what is the High Def tv adaption like in Europe? According to good old wikipedia High-definition television in Europe HDTV pretty much failed the first time around. It's starting to make a comeback, but it's still behind in popularity compared to other regions.
So, what I see here is Sony cutting off the leg to save the body. Less market pressure in Europe means more supply for areas that have adapted to HDTV a little more, which Sony has really pushed forward for the PS3, in hopes that a rising PS3 tide will float its blue ray boat.
What this could mean outside the gaming industry, however, is a little more breathing room for HD-DVD in Europe. I hope HD-DVD takes advantage of it; if the format wars doesn't flop, then I can only hope HD-DVD comes out on top. Now, if Sony hadn't gone with regional lockout on blue ray disks (unlike HD DVD which currently has no region coding) they could have lessened the advantage they just gave HD DVD in Europe. Instead, Region coding may hurt Blue Ray more than we might imagine.
Does this mean the PS3 is going to bomb completly? No. Will Sony collapse? If only...erm I mean, No. But is it a catastrophy that will hurt Blue ray in Europe, PS3 overall, and Sony in big time in the long run? Time will tell, but this 8-ball sees all signs pointing to Yes.
Demented But Determined.
Their first CD-player was a very fine unit back in the 80'. I have one I got from my father, and it still runs perfectly fine. It even reads burned CD-R perfectly.
"The way we can tell it's C# instead of Haskell is because it's nine lines instead of two." -- wadler
How will Microsoft be a monopoly if the PS3 bombs? The Wii will still be there. And if the PS3 bombs, you can probably count on Sony supporting the PS2 for quite a while longer. Indeed, you are a troll.
Everything I say is a lie. Except that... and that... and that, and that, and that, and that... and that.
You missspelt "$69.99"
And these are the cheap ones, seems like some games might reach $90...
"The way we can tell it's C# instead of Haskell is because it's nine lines instead of two." -- wadler
According to an MSNBC article, this information is also accompanied with the fact that there will only be 400K launch units in the U.S., and 100K in Japan.
If you ask me, Sony is setting themselves up for a lot of hurt by short-changing Japan so much. Granted, they have a smaller population than the U.S., but the Japanese (as a culture) are far more likely to pick up the latest and greatest gadgets (which is why they've had full video cell phones for a while now, while we're just getting them). Add this to the fact that Japanese gamers apparently adore games like Final Fantasy, and I would bet that a larger number of Japanese gamers would be willing to shell out $600.
Even so, the American market may yet buy up all 400K units. The Playstation 2 had an initial shipment of 500K units, and sold out on day one. But will there really be enough demand for the PS3, considering how reversed the position is?
I was thinking more about games (and even the console) being released in Europe at about the same time as the US etc. (Or being released at all, WarioWare Twisted, what's happened to that one then?[1]). Japanese companies often seem far worse than wester ones over this.
[1] If it does get released, it'll probably rival Animal Crossing for "slowest Nintendo of Europe release ever".
10 PRINT "LOOK AROUND YOU ";
20 GOTO 10
What I've always wondered though is, aren't there some sort of anti-dumping laws anywhere in the world that should prevent selling stuff at a massive loss in order to undercut competition? Or does that only apply to companies that are subsidized by their local government?
After 3 days without programming, life becomes meaningless
- The Tao of Programming
Surprisingly, this is NOT the biggest PS3 news today. The biggest news is that they drastically cut their expected numbers at launch in Japan and North America. And I mean drastically.
Japan: 100,000 units
North America: 400,000 units
To put that in perspective, the Nintendo DS handheld system is selling at an average of 125,000 units per week in Japan right now. If the numbers keep up, the PS3 will not even be top hardware seller on its launch week.
I can't think of a single thing Sony has done right in this launch.
At least they are delaying the PS3 release in one territory rather than creating even more of a product shortage than there already will be.
Buy a PS3 from "we want to root your PC, company" or a xbox 360 from the "we want to kill every OS and product you like and shove our own down your throat".
hmm. I think I will go with first one if I were to buy a machine.
Which Sony?
Sony-BMG brought us the rootkit. They haven't done anything useful in awhile.
SCEA is responsible for the Playstation line. They are wildly successful, although they have taken risks in the design of the PS3.
Sony Electronics has taken a hit lately but are still highly regarded; the Bravia TVs are much sought-after. The Pro video line has never been anything but incredibly successful (DigiBeta, Betacam SP, etc). The laptop battery issue is their fault, but the press seems to pin this one on Apple or Dell.
Sony Pictures makes tons of money (Spiderman, etc).
No idea how their financial services division does.
My point is - Sony is much more than just SCEA.
If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
Even though I'll eventually be getting a PS3 I'm hoping that Nintendo will stick it to Microsoft with the Wii.
Sadly I know what all Microsoft needs to do is wave a few tired old franchises in the consumers' face (Halo, DOA, Halo, Project Gotham Racing, Halo, Halo, Halo... Did I mention Halo?) and no one will never notice Nintendo.
THE HONOUR OF THE KNIGHTS - CC Licensed Sci-Fi Novel
Seriously is anyone taking Sony seriously? They are pushing blu-ray for a variety of reasons (I can understand most of them), but still. Sony needs to take a long hard look at themselves, the little bit I wanted a PS3 before has dropped. I was an early adopter for the PS2, and a couple years ago my laser got out of sync, I sent it back to them once, it took them over a month to return it. After that I learned how to repair that problemy myself.
However now they are pushing blu-ray and it's caused them a lot of problems, they've dropped anything else problematic, but in the end they lost a huge amount of fans. No rumble, late and weak motion controls, less exclusive games every month (amazing), the list is piling up. Every press release by them or about them in the last 6 monthes have been negative because it's just another mistake they made.
I hope when the system comes out they get their brains back because as it's going now the Ps3 is becoming the laughing stock. Hell the laughing is so loud we're forgetting the dreamcast (what's copy protection), the Jaguar (atari!) and the Sega CD and 32x (who needs to pay 200 for a console, just by a add-on for that much, then buy another for full power).
Sony has been shooting themselves in the foot with every single Playstation based lauch. The difference in the past was, Nintendo screwed up on their console design during the original playstation era, giving Sony a foothold with the original Playstation. Despite doing everything possible to completely screw up the PS2 launch as well, Sony still came out ahead because they were riding the wave of success from the Playstation 1 as well as the quickly rising DVD craze. They just managed to be in the right place at the right time to maintain their lead.
Since the PS2 look at the pattern. Sony completely messed up their PSP launch and has managed the system extremely poorly since, as evidenced by how much more successful the DS is over the PSP. And now they are repeating history again with the PS3. The difference this time is their market share has finally eroded, people have caught on to their launching strategies, and no one but Sony and a few videophiles is really super excited about Blu-ray(or even HD-DVD) at this time. Sony doesn't have the presence they had with the PS2 launch to ride them through these initial difficulties with the PS3 unscathed.
Does that mean the PS3 is going to be a total bomb? Of course not, people are still going to buy it. But I do think Sony is really really going to impact their marketshare this generation, and if this trend continues they probably will lose it all by the generation after this one.
Also, to an earlier commentor, I wouldn't say Sony is trying to "innovate too much". I mean seriously, very little of what the PS3 offers beyond Cell and maybe Blu-ray is a major innovation of any sort. It is mostly copying or building on ideas created by their competitors. The correct wording would be: "Sony is trying to sell too many of their products in a single package".
You are who you are, let no one tell you different. But, never close your mind to a new point of view.
Half? I have nearly 30 GC games, and only a handful that are on 2 disks. Off the top of my head, I can only think of Metal Gear Solid, RE4, & Tales of Symphonia.
"I can't think of any Xbox games that needed more then one disc."
The funny thing though is there are plenty of X-box games that are 1.5 gig or less also. Disk size is less important than Disk Speed at this point. Load screens FTL.
I do agree about cut scenes though. We are at the point now that if RE4 (GC version) can do that level of 'cinematics' in game, then there is absolutely no need to do them for next gen.
You try fitting Final Fantasy XXX on a small rom image. All posts like yours assume everyone wants to play DS style games only. Developers for consoles and PC have a market that wants -- ney needs -- FMV and the latest graphics. If you don't believe that you never left the 80s arcade era. Don't forget every generation moves the bar up in one way or another, and this generation is still pushing graphics. People want nice graphics, AI, etc and a STORYLINE... there is more to life than feel the magic. We don't just use sprites anymore.
But you sure seem to enjoy griping.
Okay, Kutaragi's comments about getting a 2nd job were insane. No two ways about that.
Two SKUs is to lower the entry price. Just like on the 360. It worked for 360, got it over the high entry price hurdle. Obviously the PS3 needs it twice as badly. Of course, the low-end PS3 cannot be upgraded to match the high-end, unlike the 360. This is very bad, that means Sony has to be more careful about the ratios of the two units, as many people will not buy the lower end unit as a replacement for the upper end unit, knowing they are stuck for good.
Enforced BluRay is only a bad thing for the first Christmas, as it raises the price. After that, having a standard storage format that is bigger than 9GB will very much benefit the platform. Also not having to spin the drive at 8X will make it a lot quieter than a 360.
Rumble doesn't matter to me. Who cares if GTA4 is exclusive when Saint's Row is a very accurate knockoff of GTA3 anyway? Delay's to PAL regions are bad, but the 360's "world wide release" was worse. With 3 regions launching on 360, that meant no one was able to get a unit. Imagine if it took off in Japan! There would have been 1/3rd again fewer units to buy in the US before Xmas.
The rumors about developer comments are just that, rumors. And screen shots showing the graphical power? Did you play the Tiger Woods game that came out with 360? It looked no better than the original Xbox. Does that mean the Xbox 360 graphics aren't any better than original Xbox?
The unit is smaller than 360 overall, because it has an internal power supply. 360's power supply is the same size as a Wii and is external. PS3 still has that stupid football-shaped cross section though that means I can never set anyting on it. I thought 360 was a dumb shape, but this really takes the cake.
I think the mockup had 4 ethernet ports actually. The production PS3 does 7 controller IDs at once, although Sony seems to be using some controller IDs for things other than controllers. But I don't get the beefing over the ports. It's not like Sony ever shipped any like that, nor did they announce a price. So how you can say you're being gypped over something you never had an actual chance to get? Additionally, anyone who had any clue knew immediately the unit would not have all those ports. Ethernet ports cost at least $0.50, and no one actually responsible for production is going to put on $1 worth of ports no one would ever use.
Additionally, 360 was not shown "suprisingly complete" at E3 that year. There was not a single working model to be found. Games were shown playing on Macintosh G5 towers.
Sony and MS did get into an escalating war of words over what they would deliver. If you ask me, MS' J Allard was the biggest force in it. He made a lot of bonehead moves at that E3, saying stupid stuff like "Live will be free" (it's not), "it'll be backward compatible" (it is for Halo and Halo 2, but the actual compatibility is actually very poor) and promising the unit will have 512MB of RAM, a move that halved MS' production well through Xmas, as RAM available was the constraining factor on production. With each unit taking twice as much, have as many units could be sold.
In the end, this war of words really raised the level of what the next gen of consoles would deliver to the customer. But it also raised the price from both companies. You can't tell me Sony and MS initially thought $400+ was a great price to sell at. They just made promises and had to raise prices to fulfill them. If you ask me, all the price jumps on both sides (except for Sony's BluRay inclusion, with was already a sure thing) came from that war of words at E3.
Do you have evidence Sony's online system isn't nearly as capable as Live? Why do people get so excited over Live? Yeah, it's nice. No, it's nothing that any other company couldn't do, especially since they don't even have to invent it now, just copy it. Why exactly do I have to pay for Live? It doesn't keep the assholes off.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
Because Nintendo is sitting on a fucking huge pile of cash, because they never lost any money in their whole history (which includes the console-gaming part).
I'm pretty sure that you meant this, but I wanted to stress it again.
People need to understand that Nintendo just doesn't do hardware at a loss like the others. Every console they sell makes a profit, even if it's just a slim margin. Nope, I agree, they aren't in trouble at all. It's extremely hard to wipe out a pile of cash built up over decades of game industry success.
Qualitas edurus commercium, nullus penitus net rimor, nullus deus beneficium
Dumping is when you sell your product at a lower price in just a certain country or region. As long as you sell your product at a roughly equivalent price everywhere, it's not dumping, and there are no laws against selling at a loss.
Selling at a loss is a standard procedure in the videogame market, all three companies do it to some degree, though nintendo is moving further and further away from the loss leader strategy.
Sony probably lost even more than MS on hardware (in total, not per unit) during the last generation, but because they had the most successful software lineup, they were able to recoup the losses. MS planned to, but the royalties structure didn't enable them to lower costs as much as they had planned because they didn't own the IP on the hardware, so they came up $4 billion short.
For the x360, MS is losing less money per unit and because the IP sturcture on the hardware is different, MS plans to be able to keep up with the price drops without losing more money. Sony will end up taking a massive bath on hardware this generation, even more than MS did last gen.
Shit adds up at the bottom...
In reality, they could be taken to court over Anti-Trust law violations with the how the
Console division is being ran right now- nobody's done that (YET!) because nobody's fell
fighting MS trying to buy their way into the market like they did with Netscape, Real,
or Sun.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
1. Buy lots of Nintendo stock ...
2. Use profits to buy cheap PS3 devices to turn into Linux boxen in one years time
3.
4. Profit!
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
No, it's because games are starting to fill DVDs and as a game developer I can tell you we'll need a lot more space pretty soon. At least with BluRay we'll have enough space for a few years, 360 and Wii could well be hitting the limit for data-storage on disk at launch, no room to expand later without a new hardware revision.
More splash screens do not a fun game make.
Games that cost 10 Euro less on a box that retails for less than 200 Euro on the street and aren't just FPS and Sports games - now that makes a fun game!
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Thus far the only legit use I've heard of for that extra space is HD cutscenes. Ok that's maybe got some nifty factor to it, but that's just a movie. I'm not getting a game to watch a movie, I'm getting it to play. So, really, what games are going to need more than 9GB of assets? You have to remember, there are two real limits to the amount of assets you can put in a game:
1) Time to make them. Nice as it would be to make a virtually unlimited environment, you simply can't afford to do it. You have to stick to a budget and that means making decisions on how big and detailed you make your world.
2) Memory. The PS3 has 256MB of graphics memory. So, no matter what, all your scene data, models and textures, has to fit in that. That means you can't just create massively detailed textures for everything. You've got to keep it in your memory budget.
So what games need this kind of space? I mean I remember then Sturm und Drang about Oblivion not being able to to fit on a DVD... Ya, about that, it takes 4.1GB on disc. Not even a full SL DVD. Game has some damn good graphics too.
You have to remember that the PS3 isn't coming on to the scene with some totally unprecedented graphics hardware. It is around the power you get with the nVidia 7900 series (it's an nVidia design) and it's memory limitation are the same as mid-high end cards. We already have a taste of what it's going to be capable of. There's just only so much you can pack in to 256MB of RAM, and thus only so much you need to pack on disc. All the whiz-bang features of the Cell are irrelevant, the ultimate determining factor of max assets on the screen is the video memory, and that combined with budget restrictions then determines how much space you may ultimately need.
At this point, I'm just not seeing it. I'm just not seeing the need for a ton more space. Right now we have games out that fill up a 256MB video card, and they weigh in under 5GB (Oblivion is the largest I've yet found, most are much smaller). So I'm just not seeing the need for a ton more space, unless it's for cutscenes. Now if that's all you care about ok, fair enough, but ask yourself how much prerendered cutscenes really do for the game. Isn't it maybe better to just to that kind of thing in the game engine itself (like Warcraft 3 does for example)?
c'mon guys this is the PS3 not fast food; when you dine at a fine restaurant you have to wait. ;)
Being innovative in a to-market product is only good when those innovations lead to a better experience for the consumers. Being different just for the sake of being different is really worthless with consumer electronics, especially when you are talking about the insides. I mean the Cell may be the most radically different processor in two decades, it matters not one bit to the end user. All they care about is the pretty games. If the games are no better on the PS3, then all the innovation is for naught. The only area being different for it's own sake will get you anything is design, because people see that. The rest, well the difference had better get you a gain somehow. It'd better make you faster, prettier, cheaper, whatever(ier) than your competition. Otherwise it's a waste.
That's not to say that the development of new technology overall is a waste, just that it shouldn't be brought to consumer products before it's ready. The Cell is cool, but putting a first gen architecture in a console? Are you kidding me? Nah man, the Cell should have been released for research/high end systems this go around with a more conventional processor. Then once Cell has been developed, look at it for your consumer electronics.
Consoles aren't about being innovative on the hardware end, they are about providing a platform with the best performance for the least price. They are just a delivery method for games.
So while I won't disagree that there's a lot of innovative parts in the PS3 and the 360 is just a standard PC wrapped in a box, I think all the innovation is a bad thing since it doesn't seem to be leading to a better system, just a more expensive and late one.
More like the NeoGeo, expansive unit and expansive games.
When did M$ buy Sony?
Opinion:=TMyOpinion.Create(Me);
It's amazing, isn't it? How you, as a "game developer" are more concerned about disk space than about gameplay?
In a discussion about format size, an observation about format size is simply an on topic discussion. It has nothing to do with priorities and nor does it imply priority.
It's kind of like saying, in a discussion about dogs getting loose, "The thought of getting bitten is a real concern for me." and having someone leap forward with, "How can you worry about being bitten when babies are dying in Africa!"
I work for a games company too. I think more capacity, more power, more everything is a good thing. If you pay attention, you'll note I didn't say add "at the expense of gameplay" or "more so than gameplay." Gameplay remains a primary concern but it doesn't stop capacity from still being a good thing as an additional way to push the genre forward.
How many CDs did Pac Man fill?
And, given that Pacman is still released semi regularly for the Gameboy, as part of "classic" collections for the PS2/Xbox, etc., how much do people still play it?
Yeah, it was a great game for its time. Yeah, for its time it sucked in far more of our time than most modern games do. But, standing against modern games like say Oblivion with its wealth of content, it captures maybe half an hour of a modern gamer's interest. Now compare it to World Of Warcraft. Even in its heyday, did its median player play for anywhere near the amount of time the median player of a modern classic plays for?
At the end of the day, whilst gameplay is core, there's a reason why most gamers, exposed to what a whole DVD full of content can be like, play older games and quickly get bored, realizing PacMan is nothing more than repetition of the same concept, requiring four or five core strategies, repeated for 255 levels.
Were you frustrated when you scratched the disk of your Super Mario Brothers 3 cartridge?
No, we were frustrated when dust got in to it and no amount of blowing would get it to work again.
Gameplay has stagnated in the past 10 years - since the Playstation era. There have been no new innovations in gameplay in that time, only improved graphics.
To name the first few the immediately come to mind...
Tomb Raider (and its clones) - a genre of gaming that didn't exist before the PS1.
Massively Multiplayer online worlds with human to human interaction on a level of accessibility that text based systems never had.
Sandbox games like the Grand Theft Auto series (that, curiously, only become possible with enough depth of content that relies on the large storage you disdain).
The only games which come to mind with innovative gameplay are games like Guitar Hero with its specialty hardware.
Unlike the classic arcade games of yore. None of which required trackballs instead of joysticks, afterburner cabinets that turned upside down, VR headsets or lightguns.
Of course, Wii is looking to change all that.
The Wii is, by definition, specialty hardware. It introduces a new class of, admittedly more reusable than many, peripheral.
If you're determined to look at a single aspect of any given argument, you can confirm your beliefs. If one only looks at numbers of children killed, guns are bad. If one only looks at numbers of crimes stopped, guns are good. Neither is that impressive of an argument to more open minded people.
Similarly, you saw a game dev comment on storage with no mention of gameplay either way and saw it simply as a confirmation of your beliefs that tech is more important to him than gameplay - despite absolutely no supporting evidence. You complain about how easy modern discs may be to scratch, ignoring how easy cartridges were to get dust in to (I for one have had far less frustration with scratched discs than I ever had with 5.25" floppies that got fingerprints on them or 16K ram packs that fell out of the back of ZX81s everytime I typed hard). You lament
OT, but:
The Windows reboot argument hasn't been an issue for years and diverts away from the real issue. Stop using it.
What windows reboot argument? Like how you have to reboot to gain back temporary stability or fix issues? If you're saying the royal you doesn't need to do that anymore, I call BS.
The situation is vastly different than with the PS2. Last time Sony was first, they could afford delays. Now they are already late, and getting later. The price picture is also very different. Many point to the PS2' DVD drive, but remember that there was no format war at the time - DVD didn't have competition, and was clearly superior in every way to VHS.
And although the MS haters are out in force, Sony doesn't have exactly have a consumer-friendly track record lately. They've learned their tricks from the record industry - arguably used to screwing everyone they deal with.
The only major problem I see with the Xbox360 is the lack of imaginative games - Microsoft needs to learn from the Japanese here. I thought the size and design of the console would be a problem - but the PS3 is an even bigger monster than the 360.
This is my first post ever on Slashdot, so please be a bit indulgant (and above all, keep all those "You must be new here" jokes for yourselves)
I hear all this talk about the PS3 being future proof. Why is that? The only thing worth being called future proof is the BluRay drive. But in my opinion, this is by no means a guarantee for a future proof product. Suppose that HD-DVD is the winner of the format war. Now the great BluRay drive lost a huge bit of its purpose (watching HD movies) and can only be used for games. Let's even go a step further and assume, the HD formats are skipped altogether. Now Sony's stuck with its built-in drive and MS can simply stop producing its HD-DVD drives and continue selling the XBox360 (applies to Wii too, of course) Furthermore, the XBox360 started in Dec 2005, a year before the PS3. MS could potentially start working on its next generation a full year earlier than Sony. Maybe then without a disc drive at all.
Last point: BluRay is still a pretty new format. What if Sony can't get its drives fast enough and reliable enough so that it's sufficient for new games? I don't know how fast DVD drives are nowadays, but I assume they are fast enough for every problem thrown at them by a gaming console.
PS: I'm waiting for the Wii as I never liked the Playstation for some reason unknown to even myself.
-Andy from Bavaria
... :-)
You can always find a PS3 on Ebay for well over $1000 after launch day.
Half of writing history is hiding the truth.
The big problem is making sure the scripting work EVERY time on EVERY machine for EVERY play through the game. Prerendered cutscenes are more than just better looking, but they always are the same. All the people that bitch about no stories in games should realise how hard it is for scripters to do this. I worked on a major RPG title, and I'll let you in on the 'secret' that the scripters grind as hard as us programmers. I felt sorry for the guys, because they are very limited in what they can and can't do -- and they still have to make it always work. Due to the way games are rushed these days you can't make a full cutscene editor for them, so they're patching into AI systems, animation hooks, etc to make these artifical cutscenes. You can end up having months sunk into mintues of these in game cutscenes. I'd rather have more gameplay time investment for scripters, and more FMV cutscnenes.
If you want to tell a story with your game you'll either have to double the development time for the tools, or you can just do FMV with writers and animators having far less restrictions.
If you're saying the royal you doesn't need to do that anymore, I call BS.
(OT: not posting with karma bonus)
What? I don't understand what you're saying, but I think you're trying to counter my sig. Windows 2000 and XP don't need to "reboot all the time". Individual users' stories blaming Windows for "instability" when they have $deity knows what programs running and drivers installed with $deity knows what hardware are anecdotal at best.
Don't run that "good deal" shit hardware. Run quality hardware with decent drivers from companies that have experience. Run as a normal user, and log on as an admin when you need to make system changes. Don't run poorly written software. Sloppy programmers have not followed the 2000 and XP API specs. Because there is backward compatibility built in and they take the easy way, those programs often require admin privileges to run. It sucks, but it isn't Microsoft's problem. You might have to fix some software to run as a normal user, but it can be done. It isn't rocket science. Real admins do this already, or they designate the task to a package manager so the software can be deployed with little effort. Again, not Microsoft's problem. Take it up with the third party vendor.
Windows OS servers are capable of the same stability as Linux OS servers. If not, you have a problem with your hardware or software. I'll grant you that 95,98,ME, and to some extent NT 4 were not so good. But since 2000 and XP, and for certain since their respective first service packs, you can't use that excuse anymore. A decent admin running decent hardware can keep an enterprise Windows network stable and the computers operating correctly. Crap hardware and local admin privileges for users on client machines is how you get instability.
It's 2006. IE is still a horrid pile, I won't argue there. But the modern Windows OS from Microsoft works fine. I've seen too many well run, stable Windows networks (from server right down to client) to just pull out Windows as the whipping boy when things go wrong.
I'll reserve judgement on Vista until it's released and maybe until the first service pack. But Windows 2000, XP, and 2003 are stable now. There are plenty of other things to take Microsoft to task for besides OS stability. Not that I'll necessarily convince you, but it's just a belief I hold. Interestingly, this sig has by far been the best at eliciting responses.
Qualitas edurus commercium, nullus penitus net rimor, nullus deus beneficium
To be fair, you are missing some of the other improvements that came with the leap from PS1 to PS2-era consoles, and PS2 to PS3. With the PS2/Xbox/GC, yes you got some decent graphical updates, but with the faster processors also came things like much better physics modelling and the beginnings of multiplayer over the Internet (Xbox Live and Sony Online). Also, some may argue that there just wasn't the processing power to do a sandbox game like GTA, on the hardware of a PS1. I'm not talking about graphical updates, but improvements to gameplay.
With the PS3/360/Wii generation, I think what's big is going to be the network support. All of the console makers are making huge inroads into this. You've got all the Xbox Live Marketplace, Live Arcade stuff that Microsoft is doing now. Sony and Nintendo have both talked about their online networks. You also have Nintendo's Virtual Console. Those are all definate experience changes. This is in addition to the controller improvements that Nintendo alone is bringing in (and no, I do not count Sony's motion controller as being particularly innovative).
True, they may be things you don't care for (some folks don't want to interact with other people at all, or could give a rat's ass over downloadable features/games), but there's definately a market for it. So when comparing console generations, I don't think that's something anyone should ignore either.
-- jchenx
What I find rather amusing is how Japan is getting only 100000 units and the US 400000. I mean, Japan is normally the place for a Japanese company to make the biggest sales-- They are not MS.
Since there are plenty of PSX/PS2 fans in Japan for the license games, Final Fantasies, Dragon Quests, Disgaeas and such, it somehow makes me feel something's not right in that distribution. Are they trying to appeal more to the occidental market? If they do so, they can be burying their own graves.
Yes, I know the occidental market is larger, but you know how Japan is too...
And, as usual, the European market is the lowest link. Tsk, I should have born in the US.
Metal Gear Solid 3 is an example of a game which does a good job using cutscenes rendered using the game engine; in the game, you can change your uniform and facepaint, and Snake will be wearing the appropriate outfit during movies. Max Payne 2 was also highly consistent; for instance, there was one point where I got the jump on the bad guys by throwing a grenade just before triggering a cutscene where a car pulls up and goons get out. The grenade went off DURING the cutscene, killing two of them as they emerged from the car.
That's a good point. However, I'd have to say that a PS3 delay/shortage *IS* in the area of affecting the general populace's opinion.
When little Johnny's dad gets a lot of heat because his X-mas present ended up not being available until January or February, that's a sign of the general public's opinion of the brand starting to drop. Of course, it will probably take more than one negative item to really damage brand trust. After all, their PS2 shipped to a huge shortage as well, and there was a lot of damaging press and opinion at the time.
This delay/shortage is definately going to be more damaging than the rootkit fiasco (which was relatively unknown to most non-techie folks). But if the PS3 goes on to have a solid life (as the PS2 did, after its rocky start), then the public will be quick to forget.
-- jchenx
NES-SNES? Are you kidding me? Why do you announce SNES as the winner of the 16-bit wars? At best it was neck-to-neck with the Genesis/Megadrive. Get your facts straight pal!
What will launch first in Europe, PS3 or Microsoft Windows Vista?
or will Duke Nukem Forever will hit the shops (for the PS1!!) just in time for launch!
"My books are water; those of the great geniuses are a fine wine... fortunately everybody drinks water." ---Mark Twain
Comment removed based on user account deletion
What? I don't understand what you're saying, but I think you're trying to counter my sig.
= 1444&sid=232% 3Ben-us%3B823942= 6790&sid=global
Yes, I was:) For the record, the "royal you" means not you specifically but all of "us". BS meant bullshit. Just clearing it up in case any of our non-native english speaking readers have an issue trying to identify that acronym.
At any rate, I completely agree with you that a non-trivial amount of reboots are directly related to bad drivers, bad software, funky hardware or a good combination of them. No argument there. I do, however, disagree that the OSs in question are stable once hardware, software and drivers are controlled for.
To illustrate my point, I did this google query:
site:support.microsoft.com workaround reboot
And of the responses I got in the first few pages (of 7,480 total), I got the following links:
http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=315753
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/838691/en-us?spid
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/916279
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/904161/
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/841027/>
http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=842397
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/837869/en-us?spid
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/812175/
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/322175/
Every single one of those is a WinXP,2k or 2k3. (The third one is Wince, which affects me directly, having to reboot to get my bluetooth working all of the time).
Every single one of these has something to do, directly, with the OS or other MS software (One is MS games, another is MS IE5.01).
All of them have the single workaround of "reboot".
I found "Host Name Resolution Does Not Work After One Year When You Use a Hosts File" especially entertaining. It seems like MS would have to code something like that on purpose to introduce that bug. The hosts file just doesn't work anymore after 365 days.
So, you can argue all you want that you don't personally need to reboot your machines, but that doesn't make up for the fact that Windows has lots of bugs which prevent uptime in general.
At Nintendo offices all over the world, this news it met with one word. And you can probably guess what it is.
Oblivion doesn't fill a DVD-5. The game is 4.1GB on disc. The assets are compressed, but only using compression that can be decompressed realtime thus it never needs to expand itself anywhere.
I suppose one could make a game that filled a DVD-9 if one were to use PCM audio for speech, uncompressed textures and so on. Then again you can also slam your nuts in the door if you want, that doesn't mean it's a particularly good idea. With compressed textures (which you'll want to use anyhow since the real issue is space in RAM, not space on disk), compressed music/speech and zipped everything else you really can fit all the assets you'd want to on a DVD. After all, at some point you have to call it quits before development gets too expensive.
Where did you read that? I thought they were going to be inline with xbox360 prices.
-Dipster
4D?!! If my calculations are correct, that is 1 more D over xbox360 and Nintendo. There is no way Sony is going to screw up now. MS PR: We got real time lightening effects in huge 3D worlds Sony PR: We can manipulate Space and Time with our boomerang controller.
-Dipster