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HP's Windows Bundle Trouble
narramissic writes "A French consumer group has filed 3 lawsuits against HP, saying the company's practice of selling consumer PCs with Windows pre-installed violates a French law that 'prohibits linking the functionality of a product to another product' — not to mention that consumers wind up paying for an unwanted OS. For its part, HP contends that it is not in violation of the law because the OS is integral to the PC. 'The PC without an OS is not a product because it doesn't work,' said Alain Spitzmuller, legal affairs director for HP France. 'We believe the market is for products that work.'"
No, Mr. Spitzmuller, you're wrong.
He's pretty much shot himself in the foot, 'cause now he's got to prove that Windows works.
MOD THE TROLL DOWN!!!
Forcing software sales along with hardware ones?
then it works.
It may not have all the functionality that someone wants, but it does work.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I hate M$ as much as the next guy but this is just lame behavior. Hope they didn't spend any money trying to build a case.
So, how are complicated things sold in France? Are cars sold without tires? Are lawnmowers sold without blades? Are shoes sold without laces? Are pizzas sold without toppings?
This sounds like a very confusing and difficult place to do business. Well, considering their unemployment rate, maybe it is.
During the riots and car burnings last year, Disneyland France cancelled the nightly fireworks displays because every night, French soldiers would surrender to Czech tourists.
"A French consumer group has filed 3 lawsuits against HP [CC], saying the company's practice of selling consumer PCs with Windows pre-installed violates a French law that 'prohibits linking the functionality of a product to another product'
FRENCH GUARD:
Allo! Who is eet?
ARTHUR:
It is HP, and these are my Knights of the Round Table. Whose computer is this?
FRENCH GUARD:
This is the computer of my master, Guy de Loimbard.
ARTHUR:
Go and tell your master that we have been charged by God with a sacred quest. If he will give us his computer for the night, he can join us in our quest for the Holy Installation of Windows.
FRENCH GUARD:
Well, I'll ask him, but I don't think he'll be very keen. Uh, he's already got Linux, you see.
ARTHUR:
What?
GALAHAD:
He says they've already got Linux!
ARTHUR:
Are you sure he's got it?
FRENCH GUARD:
Oh, yes. It's very nice-a. (I told him we already got Leenooks.)
FRENCH GUARDS:
[chuckling]
ARTHUR:
Well, u-- um, can we come up and have a look?
FRENCH GUARD:
Of course not! You are English types-a!
ARTHUR:
Well, what are you, then?
FRENCH GUARD:
I'm French! Why do think I have this outrageous accent, you silly king-a?!
GALAHAD:
What are you doing in with computers?
FRENCH GUARD:
Mind your own business!
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
...of selling cones topped with ice cream in France.
I wish I could also sue them for all the crap that comes ON TOP OF Windows. Google Desktop (even if you say no to the license, it stays there), Google Toolbar, Diskeeper Lite which hijacks standard OS tools like defrag and wants you to buy a worse version, Symantec Internet Security (notoriously hard to uninstall), and all those useles IBM utilities and whatnot.
That law won't let you make the buying of one product the condition for the buying of another. In this case, of course, you have to buy MS Windows (and assorted crap) in order to be able to buy the PC.
In addition to this while the EULA specifically mentions a refunding process, resellers won't honour it.
Both the ministry of commerce and the bureau in charge of the consumer protection have given advice on the matter to the effect that the OS and the PC are two distinct products and that the sale of one cannot be bound to the other. So normally any PC for sale should have its price listed as X + Y + Z where X is the machine, Y the OS and possibly Z the extra software. However since the resellers won't comply, the courts will have to sort it out.
May contain traces of nut.
Made from the freshest electrons.
A car without gas doesn't work, yet I am free to buy a car without gas in it and bring my own gas to use in it. As far as computers go I order barebone machines all the time (Sun X2100's being a great example, they offer Solaris, SuSE, Red Hat, Windows or no OS). I can do the same from many vendors for desktop systems. Apparently selling machines without an OS is acceptable to a large number of consumers.
I can buy DVD players not bundled with DVDs. Does a DVD player without any DVDs 'work' or 'not work'?
Whether or not it is anticompetitive to bundle Windows with hardware is a worthy question for the courts. However the suggestion that it is unthinkable to sell a computer without an OS is silly, just as it is silly to suggest that you can only sell DVD players if they are bundled with DVDs (and TVs, of course).
In other news, auto dealers are now obliged to sell cars with all the gasoline they'll ever need to run, CD players must come with the complete works of modern music prepackaged (RIAA fees included), and TV sets have to carry recordings of all future programmes to be aired.
Score: i, Imaginary
My HP Pavilion dv5000 laptop came with XP preinstalled. The first time I fired it up it, the system wanted me to "agree to the terms" before XP would work. I blanked-out the hard drive anyway, I'm a Linux user. I can't remember where I heard it from, but I think I was told that if you don't agree to the terms & don't install XP, then you can get a refund for the cost of XP. Does anyone know anything about this?
How many cars and trucks are sold in France without a driver? By his reasoning, a vehicle without a driver is not a product because it doesn't work.
How many pastry ovens are sold in France without a heat source? By his reasoning, a pastry oven without gas or electricity is not a product because it doesn't work.
How many wine glasses are sold in France without wine? By his reasoning, an wine galss without wine in it is not a product because it doesn't work.
I can't think of an example involving cheese.
Honestly I don't see why HP's argument is flawed, without an OS the PC is useless for things that consumer's want to do. HP could install Linux on every PC they ship, but the problems inherent in that should be easy to see for anyone, even the most die-hard linux fanboy (I'll give you a hint, basic computer + linux + user who knows nothing about PCs = PROBLEM). Basically the computer they're selling is largely useless to the average consumer without an OS pre-installed, and so either HP would have to change what they sell from full working PCs to almost full working PCs or they just need to win this. Face facts, without an OS the computer is no where near as useful. It's like telling McDonalds to stop putting their food in bags, because it's unfairly forcing the consumer to pay for something (the bag) that they're probably going to throw away. Or telling TV people to not ships cables with the TV, because it unfairly links cable sales to TV sales when the user may want a different cable. Admittedly Windows is more expensive but the situation is largely the same...
There are two kinds of fool One says 'This is old therefore good' Another says 'This is new therefore better'- Dean Ing
I beg to challenge HP on this: -
A PC without an OS can actually work, by allowing the installation of another OS without much hassle. Here, working should be interpreted as the actual PC being able to respond as expected to the user when switched on, instead of displaying Windows related stuff.
Uh-huh. And because it doesn't work without an operating system, it won't even be able to install other operating systems. Well, that even screws over OEMS. I'm glad that HP sells PCs with Windows already installed, so I don't have to deal with a computer that doesn't work.
The next guy here would be Slashdot readers.
You seem to be implying that not allowing the sale without bundling the monopoly OS is ok.
You likely run windows, and do not see how others live without it and all of its glorious viruses.
What exactly is the lame behavior?
There is no reason not to allow the PC to be sold blank or with some free OS.
(Other than agreements with said monopoly.)
If I was HP I'd tell the court that we would be happy to sell our PCs minus the OS as long as they make all of our competitors do the same.
not to mention that consumers wind up paying for an unwanted OS
I think it would be more accurate to say that consumers wind up paying for an OS that you don't want.
When UFC files a lawsuit, they generally have studied all aspects of the case and they are almost 100% they'll win. And indeed, they do often win. That's a great news for French consumers. HP's reply is plain stupid, and won't last long at the tribunal.
On the other hand, RAM chips without a computer don't work, but they're a separate product.
> 'The PC without an OS is not a product because it doesn't work,'
A CD player without a CD is not a product because it doesn't work.
A suitcase without a suit of clothes is not a product because it doesn't work.
A bucket without a gallon of water is not a product because it doesn't work.
An Ipod without mp3s is not a product because it doesn't work.
A hammer without any nails is not a product because it doesn't work.
Anyone else want to contribute examples?
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
"However it is also obvious that an OS is a completely different product from a Computer."
Not so completely that an OS is useful standing alone. OS+Hardware=useful. OS+nothing=useless, and the same for Hardware+nothing.
If the argument is that one should be able to buy a computer and install another OS without having to purchase Windows, how far should take it? I understand Rockbox works on several models of iPod. If I don't want the Apple firmware for the iPod but wish to use Rockbox instead, can I demand that Apple sell the two products separately?
How many other consumer electronics products does this apply to? There are many options for alternative firmware out there, have those manufacturers all been forced to break their products into hardware and software?
...for selling cars and trucks with Firestone or Goodyear tires on it.
Stupid law that garners sympathy for a pretty cruddy product like Microsoft. Thanks a lot, France.
nothing to see here. This is just another government backed shakedown of a major corporation. They know that HP would rather pay fines in restitution than lose the entire French market. The basis of any economy should be willing buyer-willing seller; if people want to buy computers with an OS preloaded, so be it. It might be in HP's best interest to sell PC's without an OS in order to appeal to potential customers who want them, but it should never be government forced, that is how monopolies are born.
I guess there's a good chance I'll get modded down for the heinous crime of coming out in favour of Microsoft here, but why should HP be sued for not selling a computer without an OS? It's like suing a company for selling a pen that comes with a cartridge. Sure, the pen could be sold without one and the buyer could get them separately, possibly even cheaper, but the fact is that the majority want to buy a pen and use it as-is. The same goes for computers.
I think HP should sell PCs that come with other OSes (or even no OS at all) - simply because I think there is a market worth taking there. However I don't think it's for any government or "consumer group" to try and force this on a company.
To look at it another way, there are plenty of PC manufacturers that solely sell PCs with DVD writers, monitors, keyboards and/or mice. Just like an OS, none of those things are *needed* in the strictest sense, yet nobody seems to be up in arms (or rather up in lawsuits) about that.
While I've greatly enjoyed watching the anti-trust decisions go against Microsoft in the EU in recent years, it seems that those legitimate victories for consumer rights are now being turned into a witch-hunt by various organisations in Europe who see the anti-MS sentiment as a means to get their hands into Microsoft's very deep pockets.
Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.
A DVD player without a DVD is not a product, because it doesn't work...
A DVD player without a TV is not a product, because it doesn't work...
A toy without batteries is not a product, because it doesn't work...
While you need to go to a store to buy batteries and DVD for your non-products,
for an OS, you may not even need to go to the store. You could download one of many free Linux (or BSD or other) OS's many of which do not even need to be installed to function.
Perhaps batteries are not the best comparison.
According to who? To me, a [new] PC would be considered working if on booting, it complains about the absence of an OS, then allows me to go ahead to install one of my liking. To you, I agree it is something else and that's OK.
To some US car manufacturers, their cars are advertised as working, but in some cases, the purchasing public have been disappointed.
I also have trouble with your definition of "useful work" because this is subjective.
But that law is stupid and immoral. If you don't want to pay for Windows don't buy a HP that's all! You don't have a sacred right to buy a PC from HP OS free. Just go to the local PC shop and get one without an OS. That's what I always did.
\u262D = \u5350
"Anyone else want to contribute examples?"
Tivo without an open kernel.
Oh, the poor suppressed corporation?
I guess if you think it is morally wrong to deny a corporation maximum profits?
Though, I suppose if the company in the monopoly position is at fault here, not all the PC companies that it pressuring to comply.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't HP offer Suse to it's customers? I have an HP TC4200 tablet/laptop that I bought specifically because all it's hardware was known to work with Linux, and I could have sworn that I read about Suse being available for it from the factory. I bought it used (I never buy new) so it wasn't really an issue for me, hence the fuzzy memory.
Why isn't this consumer group suing Sony and Nintendo as well? They are obviously forcing us to use their choice of OS on their consoles...
What about automobiles? Why aren't they suing auto manufacturers for linking their choice of OS to the on-board computer? (What about the radio/GPS-Nav?)
More lame European attacks on MS because it is foreign. Why don't I see any French proprietary OS's out there? Get it together Frenchies. I mean if Canada can do it (QNX) so can you... stop bitching and get to work slackers!
They're not broken, just not fully set up.
Not to mention that saying Windows in integral is saying the PC won't work with Linux flavors, BSD flavors, or BeOS -- all of which have (or had) free distributions ready to be stuck on the hard drive by either the user or HP.
Inserting into purchasing process
WHICH OPERATING SYSTEM DO YOU WANT PRE-INSTALLED
( ) Windows (add $99)
( ) Red Hat Linux (add $39)
( ) Suse (add $39)
( ) NONE
Yes. You can install an OS on it if you want. Or you can use it to test other components.
It might have more common functionality if the OEM installed the OS, but that does not mean that it is useless without the OS pre-installed.
For example, I can purchase rice by the bag. By your "logic", that rice is useless. Or I can buy a frozen rice dish with chicken and curry (sorry, it's getting near dinner time). Both options are valid "products" and both are useful as sold.
Now, HP can claim that they are not in the business of selling "components" or such but rather in the business of selling "ready to use" products. Then his position is valid. Just as you would not demand to be able to purchase the rice separately from the chicken and curry in my example.
If you don't like the peppers in the curried chicken and rice, you can pick them out. You can even add other spices/veggies.
If you don't like the OS on their computers, you can remove it and put on whatever you want.
But by stating that, HP has shown that it is no friend to Linux.
Miren al Pepino! Los vegetales invidian a su amigo, como él quieren bailar. Pepino Bailarín!
A friend of mine asked me for some hints while she was going to buy a new notebook.
After one month she finally bought an HP notebook, "powered" by Windows Media Center... blargh...
Although it's just Win XP Pro SP2 plus some really lame app, the notebook was equipped with the famous license sticker, but no Windows cd was available! What if I wanted (and I wanted) to format the hd and starting with a fresh install of winxp?
We all know that every computer which comes with Windows pre-installed is plenty of obsolete software and other crap (like the 6.0 version of acrobat reader and the almost-latest version of Norton something... trial or not..).. why should I accept this?
No cd was included with the notebook, even a recovery disk. But you can BURN some discs by using the HP utility on the notebook itself... which burns some data which is present on some ghost partition and will restore the old app&crap... is that kind of things fair? I don't think so...
Infact I contacted HP personally and I asked for the real and original WinXP MC CD for my friend.. and that's what they answered: "your product is a "consumer" one, so it's sold with a bundle license. This means that your product is guaranteed and supported if and only if it matches the original hardware and software configuration. The system also provides a way to create a set of rescue disks, including the os and the drivers and the applications, meant to be used for restoring the system in case of partition erasing. It's because of that that in the original package you won't find the original WinXP MCE disk".
How am I supposed to change the hw config?
So, if I install Linux and the hdd fails... I can't get tech support?
I'm PAYING the Windows XP License... why shouldn't I obtain the freakin' cd?
I got the serial, damn!
And in which way, in your humble opinion, the freakin' os can cause the hw damage?
HP' support policy is CRAP!
"A DVD player without a DVD is not a product, because it doesn't work..."
yes it does. You turn it on, you get a screen on the TV, and you even get an indcator that you don't have a disk.
"A DVD player without a TV is not a product, because it doesn't work..."
Again, I get little lights on mine, and if I put a dvd in it still sends a signal to it's output. it works fine.
"A toy without batteries is not a product, because it doesn't work..."
Of course it does, children can play with it just fine.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
HP is one product...Windows is another. HP doesn't offer anything BUT Windows bundled with their PCs. Yes, a PC without an OS is 'useless'...but some people prefer installing their own OS, or, heaven forbid, Linux! Granted, due to the current market, most people would probably go ahead and pick Windows by default, computer manufacturers really should offer to sell PCs with alternate OSs or no OS for those that have their own preferences for OS that don't coincide with what the PC manufacturer is offering. I once tried writing to HP and asking a Linux question (mainly, what they would recommend for my system that would support everything with the least hassle) and was told that putting anything but Windows on it would effectively void my warranty. No offer of a refund for the copy of Windows, nothing like that.
This is exactly what the courts should do. HP and all the others are afraid to allow any consumer OS choice now, as they will be punished by MS if they do. If a court forces them all to allow it, then MS won't be able to single out offenders and punish them anymore.
Of course, such a decision would only be valid in France at this point. Every nation should follow suit.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
And it comes in a cardboard box which is fully functional in enclosing the product.
"A CD player without a CD is not a product because it doesn't work."
It works fine, turn it on, and you'll get an indicator and everything.
"A suitcase without a suit of clothes is not a product because it doesn't work."
Sure it does, it will hold cloths. The fact that you don't have a suit of clothes doesn't mean the suit case doesn't work.
"A bucket without a gallon of water is not a product because it doesn't work."
It's the emptyness of the bucket that makes in valuable.
"An Ipod without mp3s is not a product because it doesn't work."
Sure it works, it just doesn't have any music to play
"A hammer without any nails is not a product because it doesn't work."
Come here and let me hit you in the head with a hammer, then tell me it doesn't work.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.
:wq
I don't like the firmware on my DVD player, where can I buy a firmware free DVD player so I can put my own firmware on it.
works better than HP WITH windows.
And who says it doesn't work? How is it useless? My kids toys for Christmas require intelligence to use, and so should a PC!
Now a MAC, on the other hand, without an OS is in fact useless.
L8r
Jon
So he is just trying to imply that the only thing that fits the definition of a PC OS is Windows. I call Shenanigans.
For an OS, you may not even need to go to the store. You could download one of many free Linux (or BSD or other) OS's many of which do not even need to be installed to function.
Assuming HP shipped you a PC with absolutely no O.S. installed, how exactly would you go about downloading this wonderful free O.S.?
A great solution if you already have a PC. A pretty lousy one if you're picking up a phone, squeeling, "Bleep, bleep, blurrrrrrp, bleep" at it, then desperately noting down the bleeps and burps it sends back before trying to etch the ISO image on to a CD with a flashlight and a magnifying glass.
Batteries are a common consumer item. It can generally be assumed that even the least technically inclined can figure out where to buy them and how to install them. For the average non-Geek, finding out where to buy an O.S., understanding that the cool one Apple sells doesn't work on their PC and then going through a typical Linux install is way beyond them. Thus a product without batteries remains largely functional within the means of an average consumer whereas a PC without an O.S. does not.
They are a convicted monopoly over this question, after all.
There is no discount for hitting "Y".
HP could advertise "Buy this HP PC, Get Windows at no additional Cost!"
If you don't like the price of a PC on that basis don't buy it.
Ever try to buy a new car without a radio or hub caps? You can't. Don't want the $expensive factory upgrades to those items, but plan on upgrading anyhow? Same thing.
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
I guess it is as long as one doesn't mind false dichotomies. A computer without an operating system may not be useful, but where is it written that the *only* useful operating system is Microsoft Windows? Where is it written that consumers should not have the option of installing some other operating system? Where is it written that consumers must buy a new Microsoft operating system in addition to the one they already own? I mean, aside from Microsoft OEM licensing agreements. A more appropriate analogy would be cars and gasoline. A car isn't useful without fuel, and fuel isn't useful without a machine to put it in, but nobody would try to insist that if I buy a Ford, I also have to buy a lifetime supply of Chevron gasoline with it as opposed to any of a dozen other brands of gasoline. There are even more potential choices in operating systems than there are choices of gassoline, but according to HP, you can buy your HP machine with any operating system you want - as long as it is Windows. That's total BS.
You could download one of many free Linux (or BSD or other) OS's many of which do not even need to be installed to function. Tell me again, how do you download a free OS from bare computer hardware? Anyway, I wouldn't mind the option of an OS when buying a new computer. Clerk: Would you like configuration files or constant crashes?
On a basic level a PC will function without an OS. As long as a bios exist on the motherboard the PC will boot up just fine. Won't do much beyond beeping at boot up, spin possibly colorful fans, and consume power. But the PC will function. An OS would be needed for software like IE or Firefox to function....
What the hell is wrong with allowing manufacturers to use third party products to enhance their own product by making it a part of it. Are they now suggesting that that the QNX realtime OS that my digital camera uses shouldn't be preinstalled and preconfigured? Or maybe that's OK but it wouldn't be if it was WinCE?
(hypothetical scenarios) So, basically, Samsung isn't really allowed to bundle Monster Cables with their TV's. Sony can't sell PS3's with pack-in games. And Ikea better make damn sure that it's their own brand of pillow cases they sell you with that new bed. WTF???
Seriously, those of you defending that advocacy group's opinion are smoking crack.
A DVD is media for the DVD player. It's not the same argument and you know it.
As for the other two, I think the only point you're proving is that while maybe computers and OSes could be sold separately, the fact that there are no doubt companies in France that sell TV/DVD combos and toys including batteries without the option to remove one or the other who are not being sued just goes to show that this is a farcical attempt to gouge some money out of HP.
Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.
More properly:
The real analogy is being legally mandated to not force you to buy paper with your printer. Which I hope we all agree is lame; it's not like anyone's keeping you from installing someone else's
paper.
If the user had a reasonable option, this would not be an issue.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
You've convinced me... this One Laptop Per Child idea should remove its Linux OS as an installed default and allow the children to choose which operating system they want to use with their laptop.
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
Does this mean that Apple also has to sell macs without an OS installed?
So give us a choice of an OS instead of assuming we want MS Windows
Not to mention, these days you can buy a computer and run several Linux OS's off a cd.. Why does it have to be on the hard drive?
The Minnesota AG already brought similar allegations against Microsoft. The federal district court ruled in summary judgement that the claim was baseless.
Spitzer will try again I am sure, but it is all grandstanding.
The PC without an OS is not a product because it doesn't work...hmm I don't think so! ;)
I have not purchased many PC's without that M$ product on it for years. And yes, the PC "works" with out the OS, how the F@#$ do you install an OS on a non-working PC!? Like Linux ISO's share for no reason...
Has anyone notice how the new vertical M$ ads look like toliet paper? I know they want it to look like printing on paper means some thing, but I am sorry - it really does look like toliet paper. Have you wiped your M$ ass lately.
sorry, I just could not help it...
The immature mind measures.
--
Permission based video advertising system
ogglelog
Computers do depend on a whole range of products to function - they are a collection of products to begin with. You can certainly buy a functioning motherboard without a computer, hence they are other products, and computers, as we typically define them do depend on them to function.
What if it wasn't motherboard - what if I only want to sell custom high end computers with powerful GPUs - they aren't essential for the computer to function so do I have to provide the option of not installing a high end GPU? What if I don't want my companies logo on a computer without said high end GPU? I'd hardly like to see a PC with only a GMA3000 and have people judge its performance and associate that performance with the name of a company that claimed to sell great gaming hardware. A computer doesn't NEED a HDD, or optical drivers or a keyboard or a mouse, heck evena case fan to function. So should HP be forced to give people the option of not buying any of those things. I think no - most people really wouldn't consider it a computer without them.
And theres a perfectly reasonable way to get a computer without paying the windows tax. Its called assembling it yourself. HP should be allowed to sell whatever they want and if you want a computer without Windows find a seller who makes them - they exist - or make it yourself.
Reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.
is this ignorance, or...
hmmm...
oh yes, 4. profit!
I'm pretty sure that, even in france, only geeks would choose to buy a computer without an operating system, and they would only do so if they had their own means of installing an operating system. Please, RTFA. The only thing that would be forced by this is that HP would have to give consumers the option of not buying an operating system. Consumers would not be forced to not buy an operating system .
An MP3 player won't do anything as-is. Oh, it's broken, it should be bundled with like $50 of prechosen RIAA-approved music!
Same thing. Sure the computer works. You pop in *your* CD and it boots, installs and runs.
"Assignment
Computer and software: you will not bind!
UFC-That To choose assigns the companies Hewlett Packard, Auchan Bagnolet and Darty the Markets for illicit dependent sale.
When a consumer wishes to acquire a computer near a manufacturer or of a distributor, this one is systematically sold with software, at least an operating system and very often of the application software (office automation plays, continuations, encyclopaedias...).
It is impossible for the consumer to buy a "naked" computer and to then freely choose the software which it wishes to install on his material.
However the consumer can be titular software licences and want to buy a naked computer, or quite simply to want to change software environment. He thus has legally the right to refuse the concomitant purchase of the useless software.
This practice of dependent sale has existed for several years but is not justified any more in comparison with the rise in the general level of data-processing knowledge. More and more of consumers are able thus to freely being able to choose their software environment.
This analysis is shared besides by the authorities through two ministerial answers of Mr Christian Jacob, Ministre in load of consumption, February 22 and March 8, 2005.
Beyond the question of principle, the economic stake is considerable since the software can represent from 10 to 20 % of the price of a computer today.
UFC-That To choose request with the manufacturers and distributors at the time of the purchase:
- to allow the consumers who wish it to be able to buy a "naked" computer without any pre application and or operating software installed,
- to allow the consumers to make the choice of the software which they wish to install by buying them separately or by activating or not the pre software installed via the handing-over or not by the salesman of their key of activation."
Posted anonymously so don't flame me for karma whoring. It is important to see both sides.
""A computer without an OS is not functional. "
"that is completly wrong and shows that you have complete ignorance no how computers work."
In the strictest technical sense you're correct.
In a practical sense, your answer is irrelevant.
(But yet another reason to be nostalgic for Applesoft BASIC in ROM...)
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
You have it backwards. HP is (rather, will be) obliged to give consumers the choice of not buying an operating system. This is clearly stated in the article. HP will always be allowed to offer windows preinstalled as an option, but they will have to make it optional.
"A DVD player without a DVD is not a product, because it doesn't work..."
yes it does. You turn it on, you get a screen on the TV, and you even get an indcator that you don't have a disk.
same with computers without OS... turn it on and 'OS not found' shows up on the screen.
"A DVD is media for the DVD player. It's not the same argument and you know it."
Along with the film data, a DVD the menu and interaction program (IFO) that control the movie.
You can go to the computer store, and buy a DVD so that your DVD player can do something more than a screensaver.
You can also go to the computer store and buy an OS DVD for your computer, so that it does more than bios.
FAMOUS VLAD FARTS: Volume 19
In tonight's installment of "Famous Vlad Farts", we will discuss Vlad's fart of August 3, 1998.
Vlad was at the dentist getting his teeth cleaned. Obviously, Vlad and his family were too poor to afford dental insurance and they could not pay the regular fee for an office visit, so Vlad was at a free clinic that gave out once-yearly examinations to homeless and poverty-stricken families.
As the dentist was leaning over Vlad, examining his mouth, Vlad farted. The dentist was overwhelmed almost instantaneously by the stench and did not have time to even turn his head. He vomited into Vlad's open mouth, which instantly caused Vlad to defecate himself so hard that he overflowed his threadbare Jordache running shorts. The excess feces quickly filled the dental chair and splattered down onto the clinic floor.
After an EPA inspection, the federal government ordered that the clinic be shut down and demolished, and the state of Illinois also razed the immediate 3-block radius as a precaution. No poor person in Joliet, Illinois has ever recieved free dental care since.
Vlad remains at large.
I am only one guy but I own a wallet and buy computers and printers. I will never buy an HP, nor an HP printer based on that one anti consumer statement, unless HP above him fires his sorry ass.
Is this gallump stupid or what? People aren't saying that they wouldn't buy a computer from them (before), just that it would be nice and fair to see a frikken choice on the shelves! Naked,or with windows,or with something else-that's all. Why is this so hard for those bozos to understand that?
You go to ye olde computer store, see their machinesa compared to others, compete on price and specs. Walk down the aisle, look at software, compete on price and specs. It's really that easy. If someone is against that, well, what ya got to hide anyway, afraid your "products" won't stack up?
He's shooting himself in the foot bigtime! People who wanted it bundled-swell, who cares! Just other folks would like some more options to consider your hardware. Is HP in the hardware business, or are they just a subsidiary of microsoft, inc.? If they are a subsidiary, why isn't it in their financial statements?
Anyway, I have a self built box, but an HP printer, next printer-anything but HP, and no computers from them. (Sorry HP linux dev guys, but your bosses call the shots and they suck octopus dick so that is how it goes)
One sale or not at a time is how we as consumers can vote!
Last time i went to a fast food joint, and i ate in, they didnt force me to get a bag.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
What about PCs that feature quick start functionality for playing CDs, DVDs etc without booting an OS ? They are certainly not useless. Might be a VERY overpriced DVD player, but it does work perfectly.
Good-bye
I would like that too.
But this a different kind of bundling.
The details of the cpu and hardware of a DVD are intentionally not public.
This prevents creating your own firmware, because they want you to watch the commercials.
So by deign, there are no other OS options available for the public to buy and run.
With a general purpose computer, of course there are many options of OS to buy/download and run.
It is the bundling of extra though possibly not needed/wanted significant items that causes the possible harm to the consumer and possible OS competitors.
have to agree... He's saying that a computer without Windows is not a product. A bigger BS statement has rarely been made by a reputable PC manufacturer.
...". You may disagree with their decision to offer only one OS, and for that one OS to be Windows, but that is a separate issue.
You can agree, but that merely makes two of you that are "wrong". He said "OS", not "Windows": 'The PC without an OS is not a product
Seriously, give it up HP. Nobody wants you.
I guess I missed the most obvious one: sarcasm on Slashdot without explicit tags.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
No one here is being forced to buy Windows with their machine, as they are not being forced to buy from HP. If HP had a monopoly on selling computers, it'd be one thing, but they don't. Government action to make someone behave a certain way is not necessary and not desirable when there are alternate choices of people that already behave that way.
Do you actually want the government to start making every company sell things to your liking? Does that not strike you as a dangerous precedent?
The United States of America: We do what we must because we can.
That means that every PC that I have ever bought in my life (about 8 of them) were all "non-working".
Interestingly, I was very happy with my "non-working" PCs once I installed Linux on them.
Notice that it was a lawyer who uttered that nonsense quote. Big surprise.
In a practical sense, your answer is irrelevant.
Practical for who?
If you are purchasing a computer on which you intend to install your own OS (or your OS of choice), having a different OS that you were forced to pay for already installed isn't exactly 'practical'.
However, if they're going after HP, they should go after Apple too.
Is a tractor unit without it's trailer useful? No, but you'd never presume the trailer is part of a semi-tractor transport.
Probably before most Slashdot member's time, but when early machines came out, about all you had was a bootstrap BIOS, CPM, or BASIC ROM monitor. PEEK and POKE ruled the day for those of us who could not afford assemblers.
Give me bare hardware, a bootstrap, and in time it will be useful.
Linus did it. The British grad student who wrote the Amiga-DOS kernel did it. So have many others.
Give me a machine with CD or DVD drive, and I'll show you how useful a bare-bones chunk of metal is.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
It would be illegal to not offer a car WITHOUT gasoline, if you are in the business of selling cars.
this is the same French Law applied to Apple's iPod/iTunes Lock-in when it was JUST Apple's system because they could not inter operate with other companies music or players. This is great news for OSS fans because it's sort of forcing HP to officially admit there are other OSes out there. Under French law Microsoft cannot legally enforce their OEM lock-in tactic like they do here and European laws & courts don't respect corporate "privacy" nearly the same way the courts here do... it is a "put you in jail" punishable offense over there to "conspire" to what MS has done for years here. perhaps this is an attempt to draw out HP into advertising another OS on their machines? Do they face the Law or face the wrath of Microsoft? Clever lawyer that got the ball rolling!
Maybe we can get more countries to file lawsuits like this - against as many companies as possible.
Cell phones that force us to use Symbian OS instead of letting us roll our own. Cars that are bundled with Renault engines instead of letting us install one from Abarth.
hell, why not just make it illegal to assemble anything from components and let us build it ourselves.
Then their system will be as tort happy as ours and we will regain some of the advantages we lost. Viva la France - Libertie, Egalitie, Unbundletie!!!
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
easy way to solve this "problem"
/HP driver kit (+00.00)
somewhere in the buying process you have an option
1 Windows XP Home restore package (+$99.99)
2 Windows XP Pro restore package (+$99.99)
3 I will provide Windows OS
4 No OS needed
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
And young children will inevitably play with the box more than the toy.
I don't totally buy the argument that PC+OS=product, however, in HP's defense, it probably doesn't work as advertised without the windows OS and is really a different product without it.
;^)
Also, in most juristictions, there is a implied warranty of merchantability that comes with every item that is sold: that is reasonably functional for their ordinary purpose. Of course we are free to debate what the "ordinary purpose" is of a french computer and if it requires and OS to reach that level of functionality out of the box. If a french computer isn't expected to work out of the box and needs and OS install, then presumably this is a slam dunk. Otherwize, it's perhaps less clear.
For example, the french "bundling" law taken to extremes could be interpreted as forcing cars dealers to sell cars w/o tires because it's possible to buy a different brand of tires for the car instead of the tires that came with the car (or even the brand of synthetic motor oil). Although I doubt it could ever be interpreted to apply to these things because it wouldn't be a merchantable car without oil or tires.
In any case, as with the US, I think in France you can techically get a rebate/refund for the OS if you don't use it. It seem you have to change the terms of the default purchase contract and request it in writing and threaten to sue to get them to refund you...
Perhaps that is a shallow victory for some. Also note that it seems the history of applying this law to the OS is against the unbundling in the case of a computer and an OS (and iTunes and iPods), even though bundling appears to apply in these case, such is the vagaries of the DDGCRF (the french directorate in charge of competition and fraud). They had to pass a specific law in france to make the iTunes/iPod bundling thing against the law and they'd probably have to do the same for computer+Windows.
Actually I'd just like to see this bundling OS+processor be eliminated on cell phones. I could care less about the desktop and lap top computer stuff.
Well said. And certainly more tactful than what I wanted to say. :-)
A post a day keeps productivity at bay.
Microsoft strategists, should they stumble across the discussion so far, would fall into fits of uncontrolled cackling, wide eyed, rubbing hands, with grins stretching all the way to the bank.
Why? Because everyone is preoccupied with issues that are mere disctractions from the real problem - Microsoft's abusive policies. You think HP want to restrict customer choice? Wants to charge them extra for Windows? Is full of idiots because they come up with a lame excuse for a policy whose only good excuse cannot be disclosed? The French are bad because they are targeting companies unfairly? Dream on - this entire discussion has missed the boat.
There is a reason you never see PCs from major manufacturers for sale without Windows. It is not a conspiracy between the hardware companies. HP would probably love to offer Linux. The real villain is Microsoft. They include penalties in their contracts with PC makers, that make it suicidal for vendors to sell even one PC without Windows. If HP sold so much as one unencumbered PC, they would owe Microsoft so much more money that it could affect their stock price. Microsoft gets away with this because all vendors need to be able to sell discounted copies of Windows, profit margins on PCs are razor thin, the agreements are confidential, and Microsoft has plenty of lobbyists, lawyers, and PR people.
France is right to enforce laws that break a monopolies ability to enforce its market dominance. I hope that these laws do not suffer from unintended consequences.
[Posted anonymously because I don't like having chairs thrown at me. Microsoft lawyers take note: I am not a party to any Microsoft confidentiality agreement and claim first amendment protection for the facts included herein.]
Man, it's like you're giving us the stick for us to beat you up with.
Because in case you didn't realize, by saying everything you just said you can argue that a PC without an OS is a product because it works since it makes light and you can actually use the BIOS. While you might have realized this, it means that while a PC without an OS is as much of a product that works as a DVD player without a DVD, it also means that if you claim that a PC without an OS is not a product because it doesn't work, it means that you can also claim that "A DVD player without a DVD is not a product, because it doesn't work...", as the GP did, which means that while kind of trying to prove wrong the GP you actually kind of prove him right, if we can say such a thing..
You just got troll'd!
As an American, I'm 'supposed' to hate the French and yet as a computer geek, I'm 'supposed' to hate Micro$oft...
:-P
But...apparently I am of the Generation called X so I choose apathy..
MEH!
DEAD DEAD DEAD DELETE ME
...violates a French law that 'prohibits linking the functionality of a product to another product'So how far can this law be interpreted? For example, at which point in life does a computer become a "computer" ?! Is it still called a computer if it doesn't have a harddrive? Is it still considered a computer if it doesn't have a video card? What about an OS? What about a monitor? Mouse? All these things are not *necessarily* needed to run a computer, but are part of a "packagage" that 99% of the population wants. They don't have to be given a choice if they want to buy a computer with a harddrive or not, because it's "assumed" that they do.
I think this lawsuit is really a little out of this world.. this computer that you're buying is not "tied" into ANYTHING, you can delete windows and install any OS you wish and request the refund from your XP if you're so ANTI-Windows, or ANTI-pre-installed OS. And if your mother is so computer savvy that she feels confident in being able to install Linux by herself and wants to spend that hour sitting in front of her brand new computer doing nothing but making sure ths install goes right, then why the hell are you buying a computer from a company who sells it with Windows pre-installed? Why not go out and build your own if this company does not provide you with a product that suits your needs?
What this law is trying to prevent possibly is buying a car, and having to ONLY use their repair centers and fill up only at THEIR gas stations. This is NOT reffering to selling a car with or without tires because tires are part of the "full package" much like the OS. None of those things are required to run the other, but it's assumed that you'd want them.
I hope we don't start see'ing lawsuits in France that forbid selling computers all-together, because Dell is tying you into their sound-card manufacturers, their harddrive manufacturers, and their cd-rom drive manufacturers, etc...
The magical number is: 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
I am guessing the average OEM price paid by mfg is
Bonus Question, where do you get "the paperwork?"
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
...I really just came for the pre-requisite "bad car metaphor".
"Nobody owns the fucking words man." - James Dean
As a reseller, I can assure you can buy a computer from HP without an operating system but it has to be a BTO (build to order). You have to order it using the Top Config and it will end up being more expensive than the same computer with Windows, but if that makes you happy, you can do it.
The only computers any well-known brand (HP, IBM, Fujitsu, Acer, etc) will sell without any OS straight from factory (that is, no BTO) are the very low end machines ($200-300).
If you buy a Windows bundled PC, how much can you actually get back?
I am guessing the average OEM price paid by mfg is <$50, I can get OEM Windows for ~$120... how much does Joe Blow get, if he jumps thru the paperwork hoops with his new Dell/HP/Compaq/Whathaveyou?
Bonus Question, where do you get "the paperwork?"
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
I am seeing lots of flawed logic here.
Many of you assume that since you prefer an open-source OS and generally find it far superior to Windows that everyone else should.
The problem is that the majority of the people in the world do NOT share this view point.
From HP's viewpoint is FAR simpler to buy a large number of licenses from Microsoft at a cheap price and sell it on ALL their machines - it makes good business sense. It's not like you can't get rid of it and install your own OS on top of it. NOTHING prevents you from doing that.
You all need to think about it as HP's bottom line - returning the cost of the OS for the few percentage of people who want to is far cheaper than buying licensnes from Microsoft individually and then charging people the full price. Simple as that.
If you were offended by anything I said... No, I'm not sorry. Please lighten up.
So... HP sells a product that apparently could cost less without the OS installed. So why doesn't someone else just sell a barebones PC? Why does the law have to be inovolved? Why do we have to use the government to force a company to sell their product in a way that some consumers want? If the company isn't meeting the consumer requirements then some other company can capitilize on that opportunity and create a product... why must HP sell HP products any way other then the way HP wants to. If customers don't like paying the price then don't pay it. It's simple... no need to give these silly beaurocrats any more power.
More often than not, I end up putting Windows on it again, but it is much better my way - without all stupid software that comes with the system (and I don't mean Windows itself.)
I'll bet slashdot stats still show Windows IE the leading browser, even here...
Microsoft sells boxed copies of Windows, which is totally pointless, because all PCs come with an OS according to HP, otherwise PC vendors would be selling a broken product.
What if Digg added local news and a Slashdot inspired comment karma system? ---
http://houndwire.com
I don't get an electrical service contract bundled when I buy a toaster, so why do I get an OS bundled when I buy a computer?
Unpleasantries.
That argument doesn't work. If a company sells TV/DVD combo's where the TV and DVD are separate and refuse to offer them unbundled on request, they are breaking the law. If anyone do that, and don't get prosecuted, then that's because it doesn't really affect anyone much unless that company provides much cheaper options than anyone else, or is the exclusive outlet for some brand. In other word, consumer choice isn't affected. It is in this case, as you have no real way of getting HP products without the OS at a price comparable to the price of the system less the cost of purchasing Windows, so it does affect consumer choice.
Hell even the grocery store I go to gives me a choice between paper and plastic...
So yes why not they should be forced by law to make a choice available.
Got Code?
They aren't kidding! I upgraded the RAM beyond the original configuration--a procedure described in the user manual--then the rescue disks they had me make did not work! If you change the hard drive to make a practice run before working on a disk with data you want to save, the rescue disks will not work! It took three service calls over more than a week to get the problem fixed (it should have taken none!). The first went to the level-one support center. They suggested nothing I hadn't already tried. The second call got me to the next rung of support, with somebody who at least listened to me instead of reading from a script copied from the recovery disk screens (hint, call during US working hours--not in the evening). He sent a new set of pre-recorded rescue disks, assuming mine were defective, incomplete, etc. They didn't work any better than the ones I made. On the the third call, I apparently tripped the PO'd customer detector and got to talk to somebody who knew what the problem was, and was willing to admit it. She told me to remove the extra memory and use only the original drive. In went the very same rescue disks. After running the "safe recovery (will not erase your data)" yet again, the system was back. But all stuff in non-original folders--GONE! OVERWRITTEN! NO WARNING! NO LAST CHANCE TO MAKE A BACKUP!
At least be honest enough to tell me the real problem the first time (as in the first screen displayed when "(un)Safe Recovery" runs). At least have the service desk people tell you that first, because nothing else will help until the system is factory stock. And those system recovery points I was so careful to make with every major change: they weren't much help either, after they all DISAPPEARED!
Oh, how to start it down this path? All I wanted to do was get the damn sound card running again. It seems that it quits working if you disable the factory-installed spyware (Compaq Connection). If it weren't for other family members using this system, the recovery disk would have had Suse on the label! Which leads us more or less back on topic...
The Minnesota case is rarely discussed. Links, anyone?
I would say that HP is full of doodoo, how about a gaming console without games is that not a product
either?
Got Code?
By that logic, any tool would not be a "product." That is absurd, and a bad misinterpretation of the article.
Since when did HP have a sacred right to sell PCs? Corporations are required to follow laws, they have no "sacred right" to ignore laws and do as they please.
The Minnesota case (State of Minnestota vs. Microsoft Corporation) was brought before the 3rd Federal district court on July 20 and is still in pretrial motions. I wish people would do their research before posting on /.
Some of the complaints were dismissed, but Microsoft is not clear yet.
The most important allegations involve the bunding of file compression and the bunding of Intenet Explorer.
The French should stay out of this.
Does Apple sell iMacs with the option of no OS?
Why do people flip out when a PC manufacturer does something but no one brings up Apple even though they may have been doing the same thing for a longer time?
There are numerous people on this and other boards who would claim that a Microsoft Windows operating system is unsuitable for use in a consumer product. You market a PC as a consumer product you must ship it with a reliable OEM system install.
The PC as a plug and play appliance has been the gold standard for users for over twenty-five years.If an OEM wants the reliability of an "appliance" for web and home document processing, that's probably easier to achieve with Linux, X, GNOME or KDE, OpenOffice.org, Mozilla Firefox, Mozilla Thunderbird, and CUPS drivers for every current DeskJet and LaserJet printer, than with any all-Microsoft stack.
people are comparing his statement to things like printers and consoles, saying that those things are products even if you dont get paper or games with them A better analogy would be comparing it to buying a house that doesn't have running water or electricity. It's still a house, sure, but you can't do much with it! Would you rather buy a house whcih comes with running water and electricity pre-installed, or one without, and pay to have the pipes and circuits put in in a "superior" arangement?
Its only O/S not found if i don't have a boot disc. These are plentiful, varietal, and mostly not from Redmond.
This is the crux of the matter. The question is: if you buy a computer from HP which has Windows pre-installed (and included in the price) and you don't want to use Windows on it, can you get a refund for it?
I haven't seen an authoritative answer to this question and it doesn't seem to be mentioned in TFA, but it's the most important one. The Windows EULA you need to agree before you can use it says if you don't agree to it, you can return it to the manufacturer (HP) for a refund.
If HP honour that, that's fine. You can return the unused OS and get your money back.
If HP doesn't honour it, then they're violating their own license agreement (by bundling Windows, its EULA becomes part of HP's licensing terms). And for that, they need to be sued into oblivion.
Game consoles don't "work" without a CD inserted.
Do you honestly think it should be mandated that computers must come OS-free?I believe that major international computer builders shouldn't make an exclusive contract with the maker of one OS in one country, especially one that has been convicted in multiple countries of unlawfully exploiting a monopoly.
You are free to go buy a computer without an OS, or buy the parts and assemble them yourself, etc. Should companies not be free to sell OSes pre-installed on computers? Should people not be free to buy them?From which widely recognized national brand am I free to buy home boxes that come with a pre-installed GNU/Linux operating system?
"Nothing anywhere says a PC needs an OS to work. Granted, you cant do much with it, but guess what you can do? INSTALL AN OS, any OS that is compatable with the hardware (of which there are tons, granted some more then others)"
Obviously all you "intelligent" geeks don't see how you contradict yourself. You NEED an OS for a computer to work. Period! HOW it get's on the computer isn't the issue at hand. Now HP's argument is correct. It's not a product MOST OF THEIR CUSTOMERS WANT (read NOT SLASHDOTTERS).
Some people actually use exactly that line of logic, claiming that monitors should have built-in ATSC or DVB-T receivers, depending on the shipping destination. Then you at least get some sort of OTA picture, even if the monitor is unplugged from a computer.
If I remember correctly there was a court decision against illegal bundling of software with hardware, specifically in regards to denial of sale of a computer system without operating system and denying refunds of that part of the retail price that reflect the price of the operating system. With respect to such vendors as HP we need to make sure that they obey the law, meaning that they properly issue so-called windows refunds and not turn people down who do not wish to pay for this particular operating system.
better analogy:
it is not required that you buy a dvd of a movie when buying a new dvd player. Certainly
the new dvd player is useless and performs no function until such a time as you load a
dvd of some content. One can view the pc in a similar manner - it plays content, be
that the windows os, linux, bsd or your own home grown asm os.
A computer without an OS is unusable for its intended purpose by 99% of the population.
If you are incapable of installing an OS on a "naked" PC, you would find a computer without software pre-installed as unusable as a cellphone without an OS.
Face it, 99% of the population is using a computer as an appliance to run a small number of applications. Very small number.
This guy says that HP makes products that work. How far they've come since they bounced you out on your ass.
Yahoo! Pipes are awesome. How awesome? http://pipes.yahoo.com/jesdynf/slashdot
BIOS is a tank of gas. Windows is a 3-year gas card to one brand of gas station.
Yet again, the French must swoop in and save civilization. They must be getting tired of it by now!
Reboot and Select proper Boot Device (Réinitialisation et dispositif approprié choisi d'initialisation )
Don't you think he might call HP and say "My PC doesn't work!" ???
People don't call Sony when their PlayStation game console says "Please insert a game". Here's what the HP tier-1 phone tech support person would say:
Press the button on your computer's DVD drive to open the tray. Find the CD labeled "Linux Operating System", L-I-N-U-X, that came in your computer's resource pack, and place it in the tray. Press the button again to close the tray. Now press the power button to start the CD. Then just do what the screen says.
Dell and Gateway include Windows on all their home PCs too. Which major computer maker offers a line of home PCs that run *BSD or *Linux?
There's something to keep in mind in this whole discussion. The action against HP is not being done with the slashdot crowd in mind. All this talk of "what would I do with an OS-free computer?" is rather irrelevent, because both parties are thinking about the average Joe and Jane "French" Consumer. For that group HP's argument is quite valid, and the French Consumer Group's actions would not benefit them regardless of this forums personal feelings towards MS.
If it's to be used as an appliance for basic web browsing, e-mail, word processing, photo management, and media presentation, then wouldn't Linux be a better choice because everything not necessary for those tasks can be stripped the heck out?
I answered that objection.
Which major PC manufacturer advertises home PCs that run Linux?
Even when HP had been selling its computers tied to products produced by a monopolist that has been convicted in multiple countries?
"For its part, we contend that it is not in violation of the law because the PC is integral to the OS. 'The OS without a PC is not a product because it doesn't work,' said (whatever), legal affairs director for (whatever) 'We believe the market is for products that work...
Very simple solution: HP offers a 'No OS' option that lowers the price by $5. Problem solved.
Due to circumstances beyond my control, I am master of my fate and captain of my soul.
Do people expect the same out of DVD players? I wouldn't expect to see Sean Connery unless I put in my Finding Forrester DVD; why should I expect to see a desktop wallpaper without putting in an Ubuntu disc?
The fundamental flaw in all the arguments posted here is that the posters persist in thinking like Geeks.
The consumer PC market is a Geek-free zone. It has its own rules and values, which have been shaped by twenty-five --- near thirty years --- experience with the PC as a toy, an appliance and an office machine.
People know what they want and it isn't the stripped-down network appliance.
It isn't the "bare bones" PC. It isn't Heathkit, DIY electronics, twenty years dead. It is a rich, deep, software library, oriented from the beginning towards the needs and desires of ordinary people.
[Windows, not Linux, is the populist OS. Quite literally the OS of the marketplace, the thieves' bazaar.]
It is backwards compatibility. It is the powerful, affordable, OEM Windows system which benefits from enormous economies of scale in every aspect of production, marketing and distribution.
It isn't the Politically Correct which sells, and that is what is important to HP.
___
It is particularly ridiculous to think of the OS as a consumable like an ink jet cartridge or a ream of paper.
Answered.
-
First is the presumption that a computer (shipped) without an OS is useless... I can pop in a Knoppix disk and do most of the things that people use their computers for without installing any OS -- banking, messaging, skype, word processing, photo editing, etc., etc.,
... His statement is false.
- second is that that that Windows is the only OS that anybody would ever want.
- third is the implicit claim of the (many) astro-turfers that this suit is meant to prevent HP from selling computers with MS-Windows.... From TFA:
Nothing wrong with consumers buying an HP computer with Windows, as long as that's what they want (which will be the case for many -- but not all -- consumers).
It's more like if every major hospital in the country forced children born there to be baptized as Roman Cathoic -- and required that the parents pay a tithe to the Roman Catholic Church for the 'privilege'.Now, yes, you can turn around and have the child declared Baptist, Lutheran, Jewish or Muslim, etc., but you still won't get back the $75 that went to the RC church.... and, for some people, just having the taint of the RC church on their children is almost as bad as being declared pagan. -- and, for some people, explaining to your parents back home why their grandchild's Birth Certificate says Roman Catholic is going to be, uhm, delicate.
Of course you also have the option of having your child born at home, but some people really like the convenience and safety of a large hospital.
[I'm RC, myself, so I can (I hope) get away with this analogy.]
Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
If a computer builder does not advertise, then knowledge of the computer builder's product does not exist among potential buyers.
That's news to me. I guess I'll have to buy another computer, because this no-preinstalled-OS computer I'm using is just a figment of my imagination.Who built this computer? And how did you find this computer builder? If yourself, how did you discover 1. that you can build your own computer instead of choosing a national brand and 2. how to do so?
OS of choice, or OS of coercion? Do the majority of the middle class even realize that they have a choice?
[A computer builder] only knows what people are buying and it sure as hell ain't OEM Linux.People are buying Windows only because nothing else is advertised.
These are not comparable analogies. A DVD player exists for the purpose of playing a variety of DVDs, just as a computer exists for the purpose of running a variety of applications. A DVD player requires software to do this, which the consumer does not get to select or opt out of. That software is what is comparable to an operating system, not DVDs or batteries or TVs.
Yes, quite absurd.
That was the point.
HP was saying was saying that the computer is not a product if it does not have X bundled.
Where X is brand MS OS.
Of course the computer is still a product without an OS which can easily be purchased separately.
The problem is not bundling either. It is about bundling another product whether or not the customer wants to buy the other product. The bundle deal artificially helps sales of product X, sacrificing consumer price and market competition
If a shower door company made deals with all of the tub manufacturers to include their shower door with every tub purchase. Then the customer pays more for the tub purchase even if they intend to use no door, a curtain, another door, or a door they purchased previously.
The same is true with a computer purchase. I would probably have more use for a shower door if it was bundled with my notebook computer than a copy of MS Windows.
The shower door may cost me less, as well.
Yes, a computer does work without a Microsoft operating system. Its function is to run the programs contained in a free Linux live CD that the customer obtained through the local counterpart to Ubuntu ShipIt.
then the manufacturer MAY be required to offer the product without that part on request.The article claims that HP is refusing to properly fulfill these requests.
Microsoft Flight Simulator 2 didn't require an OS - it did all the hardware and memory management it needed internally. IBM's early disk diagnostics were the same way. If you write your code to the L4 kit, then you can even get Java to run without an OS. OS' came about decades after the first stored-program all-digital computer and if you're not wanting protected environments are largely a waste of resources. An OS is just a glorified wrapper over the electronics, if you're handling any threading and memory pools yourself.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Can a cell phone be forced to sell its phone (the hardware) without an os installed? Thats is what the rammification of this ruling would be. In essensce, all personal electronic gadgets that have some sort of OS cannot come with the device.
I've heard some of the most ridiculous things in these comments.. including all the bad car-gas/printer-cartridge/dvd player-dvd metaphors. Unfortunately they all have a very important thing in common: those products are meant to have their corresponding 'parts' exchanged by the average user regularly, and the 'parts' are meant to be exchanged quickly and easily. An OS is usually only a one-time thing: you install it and you're done.
The point is, it's not practical at all for HP to not sell computers with Windows pre-installed, for the sake of the consumers. The case could be made that other options should be available, but computers that come with Windows will always be mainstream.
But but computers without an OS forced on you are cheaper and give you more options. And they work! You just have to install the OS on them for them to be useful, but ask anyone who knows anything and they can tell you that's easy...
Show me an entrepreneur or CEO that's willing to license, obtain, and have Windows installed on every computer they buy themselves, and I'll show you a fool. For those who just need what's mainstream and what's best for them and/or their employees, preinstallation is faster, cheaper, and easier. The rest of us linux nerds? We'll just have to do our own thing.
A simple command.com file on a properly formatted harddrive with a valid file table is all you need to have the basic parts of a computer working. So HP is lying.
Makes me wish I didn't work for them, but hey, I need the money.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
Why all of the threads trying to defend HP and the argument that a pc is useless w/o an OS? That is beyond absurd. The last two laptops I purchased from HP were with XP Home. Why I needed this is beyond me, I have an MSDN subscription and triple boot between Windows,CentOS and OpenBSD. The last thing I wanted was another damned license for XP Home, but that is not an option. The solution is simple, if the folks at Redmond cannot abide having a competing OS being sold with the laptop, SELL THE F%$#k'R bare.
Just give the option, that is all that is needed. Joe user get's his windows if he chooses, everyone else gets what they want and need.
I think many of you are forgetting that there is also the option that some people may already have a legitimate copy of Windows. What about businesses that have a site license? Do they need to be forced to buy another copy of Windows?
What if I built a computer and bought a copy of WinXP(retail) and two years later my computer dies. When I buy a new machine, why am I forced to buy another copy of Windows? I have a legal copy of Windows that will still only be used on one machine.
This is why I build my own computers. I refuse to pay for something I am not using.
If the video/audio/whatever is windows only, then the machine will not be fully functional with Linux, BSD, Solaris, DOS, or whatever.
It is said int he article : "A French consumer group has filed three lawsuits against Hewlett-Packard Co. and two electronics retailers" and not ""A French consumer group has filed three lawsuits against Hewlett-Packard Co."
Little difference...
I guess there's a good chance I'll get modded down for the heinous crime of coming out in favour of Microsoft
If HP offers the option of ordering a computer with other OS's, you have a point. If they don't, you do deserve to get modded down, but for spouting nonsense, not defending Microsoft.
If simply all computer vendors were legally obliged to itemise the computer and operating system in all advertising, *and* make the operating system optional, it would immediately level the playing field for all competitors.
Our government departments are, indeed, in Microsoft's pocket. Heck, our entire country is in America's pocket.
There are 10 kinds of people; those who know ternary, those who don't, and those now hunting for a dictionary.
I know many of the Linux zealots here will bash HP for not offering alternative OSs as an option, but remember that when your average consumer (ie: grandma) purchases a PC they expect a certain level of support and functionality.
.. it's quite likely she may want Option B. Then when she gets home to install it, and then has any number of problems (her ISP won't support her, her printer doesn't work, her nephew can't email her, her bank won't support Firefox, her old copy of MS Office won't load, etc etc etc) then she's going to call HP.
If grandma has a choice between:
A) Desktop + Windows for $800
B) Desktop + Linux for $600
At that point, HP's costs increase trying to support Grandma, or HP risks seriously upsetting a customer and possibly getting into further legal troubles. It's a lose-lose for HP and Grandma.
A business should never have be forced to give its customers a choice. If it makes business sense to only bundle Windows, then it should be free to do that. Let someone else sell a Linux box, take the risk, and see what happens.
-David
Given the dominance of IBM in the mainframe market, the DOJ stepped in, as bundling for the purpose of damaging competitors is illegal when done by a monopoly. IBM settled, and unbundled the software.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amdahl
Bundling products together is legal when none of the products show monopoly market power. If customers don't like the bundle, they can take their business elsewhere. Customers buying an undesired bundle is a key indication that monopoly market power exists and is being abused.
The key to understanding how Microsoft violates antitrust law is that end-users are not Microsoft's customers, OEMs like HP are. It makes no sense for HP to refuse to offer PCs without Windows when there are customers who want them that way. That refusal indicates that HP is under pressure from Microsoft to do something that hurts HP in the market, but helps Microsoft. Microsoft is using its Windows monopoly to suppress competition in the market to OEMs. HP can't afford to lose the ability to sell Windows, and it can't afford to pay higher rates for Windows.
The OEM Windows monopoly gets passed on to the end user. The French are using consumer protection law to give HP and other OEMs a way out. HP can settle by offering PCs unbundled from Windows. If (when?) Microsoft penalizes HP for unbundling, then that becomes evidence that Microsoft is violating antitrust law. HP can either take the fall for Microsoft, or it can turn state's evidence and help convict Microsoft. What it can't do is sit on the sidelines and plead that it's an innocent bystander.
I'm pretty sure that, even in france, only geeks would choose to buy a computer without an operating system, and they would only do so if they had their own means of installing an operating system.
You're making the common mistake of assuming everyone has at least a good basic grounding in tech.
To illustrate, I've just got back from the office Christmas party. As part of a white elephant gift exchange, our receptionist got a high end Logitech 2.1 speaker setup. She loves her iPod but had absolutely no idea that this heavy box she got could somehow work with her iPod - "surely iPods only work with headphones or really expensive adaptors, right?"
You advertise, as part of whatever the French equivalent of Black Friday sales is, that HP has a laptop going for 249 euros and you'll have a hell of a lot of people desperately queuing up to get this door busting deal. Probably half to three quarters of them will have no idea that the small print that says "O.S. free" or some other deliberately obscure term means that they just bought a 249 euro doorstop unless they're willing to buy the Windows they assumed all PCs come with or track down a Linux install.
Look at USB 2.0 hi speed and USB 2.0 full speed. Do you think the average consumer can tell you which is 12mbps and which is 480mbps. They're both better than USB 1.1, right? Nope. Not in the least. But companies quickly figured out how to obscure the difference in order to offload cheap garbage on to people who, realistically, aren't going to decypher every latest obfuscation.
People are motivated by perceived deals. You offer a 500 euro home PC and a 400 euro PC with "true operating system freedom(tm)" or some other obscure term, a very great number of consumers will end up essentially defrauded after thinking the 400 euro one represents a better deal and now have to pay 150 euros to get the retail rather than OEM priced version of the O.S. Of course the store will no doubt be more than happy to restock the mistaken purchase for a very reasonable 15% restocking fee, providing the box is still sealed.
Again, just because you assume something is so obvious doesn't mean it is for most non technical people.
somewhere in the buying process you have an option
/HP driver kit (+00.00)
1 Windows XP Home restore package (+$99.99)
2 Windows XP Pro restore package (+$99.99)
3 I will provide Windows OS
4 No OS needed
The flaw in your assumption is that you're assuming retailers have any interest whatsoever in making that process legible.
Take USB 2.0. Hi-speed and full-speed. Which is the faster one? Even assuming you happen to remember without looking it up, now call your mother, grandfather, etc. and see if they know. The whole naming structure's a deliberate obfuscation by manufacturers to allow them to offload the cheaper components on people who don't know the difference - while avoiding having people refuse to buy USB 1 products they assume are "worse" when, in fact, they need a fraction of USB 1's bandwidth in the first place.
Your options are going to be presented as:
HP, DVD-RW, genuine Intel Dual Core processor, 120GB hard drive.
HP, DVD-RW, genuine Intel Dual Core processor, 120GB hard drive, back up operating system CD.
HP, DVD-RW, genuine Intel Dual Core processor, 120GB hard drive, true freedom(tm) operating system advantage.
HP, DVD-RW, genuine Intel Dual Core processor, 120GB hard drive, operating system advantage(tm) operating system advantage.
One of those has Windows, one has Red Hat and a backup CD, one has no O.S. whatsoever and one has a dual boot with both Windows and Red Hat.
The readers of Slashdot will revel in their freedom and their thorough research will avoid their getting screwed. They will however really quickly get sick of their relatives calling up, wondering why their new PC says something about memory and disk drives before locking up on some weird screen about no boot disk being found - along with being asked to come over and get grandma's new iPod working and hooked up to the iTunes store on her new PC (that's running Red Hat). They'll quickly learn to desperately try and explain what "true freedome operating system advantage" means to grandparents that quickly glaze over and will have a bunch of frustrating trips back to the store to find grandma has to pay a 15% restocking fee or has to pay fifty percent more than the savings she thought she was getting to get the retail rather than OEM version.
Grab the Circuit City, CompUSA, BestBuy and Fry's circulars this weekend. See if you can find a single PC ad that actually clearly explains every feature of the machine on sale. Go in to a store and ask the sales guy to see if you can get anything more intelligent than the more expensive one is better and that he likes brand X. See if he can even explain something as basic as the difference between a Geforce 6800 and a 7300 graphics card without mistakenly telling you the higher number is obviously better. Now ask yourself if the world would be improved for the non geeks out there by having the equivalent of USB hi-speed/full speed for operating systems.
In South Africa we have a special name for the solution to your quandary. We call them Freedom Toasters and will allow you to burn a complete Linux distro while you wait.
We have them all over the country at various sites, such as Shopping Centres and the like.
Sometimes living in a Third World country with crappy international internet connectivity isn't all bad...
Part Time Philosopher, Oft Times Romantic, Full Time Unix Geek
I mean, there's software in there. How dare they bundle that!
What if I don't want an optical drive? How dare they bundle a DVD burner (ie. another product) with the computer?
I am the maverick of Slashdot
I always assemble it by myself. I buy motherbord, video card, memory etc. and assemble it.
Or optionally upgrade to Windows XP professional for 130euros
Another OS.
"Or telling TV people to not ships cables with the TV, because it unfairly links cable sales to TV sales when the user may want a different cable."
Funny, I didn't get any cables with my last printer. That's okay, because I ALREADY HAVE about 10 damn USB cables at home.
That also brings up another problem - why pay for the same product if you already have it?
So, cars should be sold with the tank full of gas?
You're confusing "practical" with "$50 more".
The installation time is assumed if you're installing your own OS.
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
When there's a maker that has over 90% of the engine market and (ab)uses that position to harm competitors in transmissions, lights & tyres you can come here and tell us about it.
Only three things are certain; death, taxes, and apocryphal quotations - Ben Franklin.
The argument that an OS must be installed to make the computer useful can be easily refuted. Most PC's (I assume HP's, but can't confirm) will search for a boot server if their is no OS installed. This is handy for business use, but could also be exploited by home users if the cable/DSL routers had an OS they could download to a new OS-less PC. A router engineer could easily add a small Linux install like Puppy or DSL to their home router and then people could buy a bare PC (no HD required) and plug it in, it could boot the minimal Linux image from the router and become an "internet appliance". It'd be really cool to store all the changes and new files to a USB key so you could take it to another "appliance" and run it there as well.
"Honestly I don't see why HP's argument is flawed, without an OS the PC is useless for things that consumer's want to do. HP could install Linux on every PC they ship, but the problems inherent in that should be easy to see for anyone, even the most die-hard linux fanboy"
'during the past few years, several thousand Linspire-loaded PCs have been deployed in dozens of classrooms across the state of Indiana in an trial program that has been widely successful; some 12,500 high schools in India moved to Linux-only computers'
'Desktop Linux is less expensive for schools to buy and less expensive for IT administrators to upgrade," said Linspire CEO Kevin Carmony. "It's easy to install and easy for teachers and staff members to learn, and it's safe from the plague of viruses and spyware'
was (Not a bad arguement Score:4, Astroturfing)
davecb5620@gmail.com
Ford doesn't make tires - they just buy them from Firestone or Michelin or whoever and put them on new cars.
Should car manufacturers be forced to sell cars without tires since they didn't make them? Oh, and most of the time, you have to special order a specific brand of tire on your car. Or you take what you are given.
Why can't I mod "-1 Idiot"?
A computer is a bundle of third party products. HP, Dell, Gateway, etc. aren't mining silcon, gold and copper, creating polymers, and building these things from scratch. They've made hundreds of choices of which motherboards, RAM, processor, harddrive, etc. vendors they buy from, who in turn select the silcon providers they buy from... The result is a "product" that their clientele wants. To supply Windows preinstalled is a choice they have made to, theoretically, make their customers happy. Why is OS selection any different then choosing which vendor made the chipset?
Windows bashers dont start. This would mean linux couldnt be bundled with the pc either.
"The problem with an OS-free PC is that it will actually cost you more. The large PC manufacturers get Windows for very cheap, and then load it up with "value added" software, links, demos and other such great stuff"
What 'great stuff' do HP provide that adds more value to the PC. Why not provide a Linux Desktop that comes with Office, Internet and multi-media already included, unlike barebones Windows that requires seperate purchase of the applications.
was Re:He's an idiot (Score:5, astro modded)
davecb5620@gmail.com
To supply Windows preinstalled is a choice they have made to, theoretically, make their customers happy. Why is OS selection any different then choosing which vendor made the chipset?
They why is it that in terms of software they only supply the product of a single software company. Is there anything in the OEM contract that compells this.
'Microsoft Corporation forces contracted Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs), who receive significantly lower prices on Microsoft's Windows operating system, not to install any operating system besides Microsoft Windows'
was: Isn't an HP a bundle of 3rd party products anyway
davecb5620@gmail.com
French Law. If you do not like it : stop selling in France. If you want to sell in France : respect the french law. If there was only *1* ever OS available and it that unique OS would be necessary, HP would have a point. But it ain't so, and so HP has no case at all. OTOH french consummer association, and french governement have got a case. Frankly if HP *want* to bundle absolutly windows, then they have either to offer it for free , or stop selling in France. If this is the case, they choose to stop selling in France, then a cotage industry will automatically jump in (after all it ain't like making a PC is mojo-mojo magic) or even other firms.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Those two are chip (aka: hardware). I am not sure if I do not get your sarcasm or your humour here, but comparing a software to a hardware in that case isn't quite right.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
...for DVD Writers, Monitors, RAM modules, Motherboards, and others? They're all third-party products and they're "forced" on most models. You just can't buy some computer models without an optical storage drive. Or maybe a harddisk.
What if I want the computer just for running a live CD? What if I don't want a RAM module for whatever reason?
The answer is simple: I should buy my stuff somewhere else.
Bundled Operating Systems and Optical Drives are the same thing. They're bundled. They're from third-parties and you can argue that they're not actually necessary for the computer. In fact, if this nonsense "I can install my own" argument is valid, we can also sue to buy computers with no RAM, Motherboard, Processor, and others.
If you don't like someone's product. DON'T FREAKING BUY IT.
A DVD player requires software to do this, which the consumer does not get to select or opt out of. That software is what is comparable to an operating system, ...which the consumer can select.
Is that the point? that since the OS is a separate product that can be purchased in the store (unlike the DVD firmware), automatic bundling takes away consumer choice, and forces an implicit purchase?
Like selling a car and telling the costumer that he gots to stick to the same kind of fuel the car has come originally because this car without fuel is not a product that works!!!!
So the costumer can't choose if he wants super or extra super without lead or wathever. The consumer has not the right to buy a car without fuel and then filling it with whatever he wants to, because the car without fuel is a not working product!!!
bullshit!!!!
In any place they will fill his car with whatever kind of fuel the costumer wants or even without fuel, if that's what the costumer wants, they may even give a bloyjob to the costumer just to buy the car and that's what I believe France HP product manager should be doing, instead of talking nonsense
HP can issue a big press release that they're being all vive la France! about it and caving to the pressure by selling all PCs in France without an OS. Of course, since they have to use a custom manufacture process for that country, the PCs will cost more to manufacture, so naturally they'll have to charge extra. And French consumers will pay the extra with pride, because it's a French edition of the computer.
In the meanwhile, here at the store there's a copy of XP for EU130, right next to the PC, and you have to buy it, right? But since you're buying it with a PC, we'll only charge you EU100. MS gets EU70 of that, instead of the EU30 they'd get if it was preloaded.
Don't feel like installing Windows yourself? Le Best Buy will be delighted to install it for you for EU50, custom configured for your specific PC model, right over there at the service department. Yes, the service department with the long line. About an hour, why do you ask? Just enjoy the store, maybe check out the digital cameras. Note that installing the OS is just a matter of plugging a cable into a USB jack and ignoring it for fifteen minutes while a stripped-down Linux dd's the PC's HDD to where it would have been in the first place.
And that's all there is to it. The PC costs an extra EU30; the OS costs EU100; and OS installation costs EU50. EU180 per PC, EU100 of which leaves the country, and after HP "caves", you'll notice all other PC manufacturers doing exactly the same, because, hey, it's the law, right?
Okay, maybe Ubuntu will pick up a few customers, but I'm predicting less than one in five purchases will take that route. That's still an average of EU144/PC extra profit for all parties involved. Excluding VAT, of course -- I expect the French government skims another EU28 or so, on average. See? Everybody wins.
Except, of course, the consumer.
This is not my sandwich.
There's lots of parts of the hardware configuration that HP "bundles" that I end up paying for even though I immediately throw out. I run a 1GB Ethernet, so the money I pay for the on-board Ethernet is just wasted. It should be illegal to bundle the Ethernet on the motherboard. Similarly, I put my own video card in, so make sure you're not bundling in a Video card. I prefer Seagate Hard Drives so if you're bundling in something else, shame shame shame. Clearly these are not integral portions of the system because I can run a computer without a hard drive, a video card, and an Ethernet port. Let's go a bit farther. I really would prefer a Xeon processor in my machine, but HP only bundles desktops with lessor processors. Boooo! I cry FOUL! Take em' to court! Chipset? Heck, there's lots of options on the market. Why does HP force me into a particular bundle? Same goes with memory manufacturers. Why should I be forced to buy the memory from whoever HP is in bed with. I think HP should be required to only sell a bare-bones case from which I can populate with 3rd party components. Oh, and clearly that case should not come with a power supply, because I might want to use someone else's power supply. And the screws that hold the case on? Don't saddle me with your forced add-ons!! I can buy screws at any hardware store!
What seems to be a missing point is that a PC even with just an OS installed is still not a worthwhile machine. So is HP now also going to mandate unpatched M$Office on to consumers?
YOU may be able to install a free OS and get it to work.
Please consider the many thousands who would look at the no-OS savings and say "Oooo, cheap computer!". They will buy these and end up tying up support for hours at a time troubleshooting their free OS related problems ("My computer won't run XXXXX"!).
Computer profit margins are razor thin now. Take away the small profit on the OS and add in the increase in support costs and you wipe out all profit on no-OS computers. And don't think the manufacturers will get away with NOT supporting no-OS computers, governments would just legislate that they HAVE to support all their products.
I'm guessing the solution is that HP simply charges the same amount for the box whether or not an OS is installed. That would provide a profit cushion for support and remove the burning need for people to buy w/o OS.
no matter how good it is, it is human nature always wants to make things better
First of all it's a pretty dumb lawsuit. 95% of users are going to want the latest greatest version of Windows on their machine, and if they don't, they should be able to custom an order from HP sans OS. What really ends up icing most people's chaps is the fact that the restore for Windows on HP boxes is a partition on the hard disk with no optical media provided. The option exists to burn a set of restore disks (neither of which gives you the functionality of a full XP boot CD), but most people neglect to create this set. If their hard drive goes, they're completely screwed unless they want to pay HP for a new set of pressed restore CDs.
They already got sued for it once and settled out of court. But not only are they still practicing this BS, but they've now expanded it to their laptops since the portable drive capacities have gone up recently.
"If Microsoft Designed and produced workstations then that would be a different story, like auto manufactures they could insist on using only their manufactured power plants. that being said Microsoft doesnt produce their own hardware so it should be up to the end user to make that choice"
By choosing to buy, or not to buy HP.
"Just wondering why you would make such an absurd statement. I have never seen a law that stated you must sell with an OEM install with a system."
Pfft. Like this forum ever gave a damn about laws anyway, the law in question is this; the law of supply and demand.
"They may be insignificant in your mind but they are still a driving force in the development of the PC."
In the context of this story they're irrelevent.
Computer hardware manufacturers shouldn't be providing support for software products running on their hardware. Hardware manufacturers should support the hardware, and any issues it has, like bad HDD sectors, or faulty memory, etc... If you buy an OS from a third party and install it on the OS-less computer, don't you think that its the third party vendors responsibility to provide support for that product? Not to pick on MS in particular here, but say MS makes an OS with a crummy installer, shouldn't they be the ones who have to support it? Maybe then they'll learn to do better next time.
A computer that boots an OS when it's not supposed to then the computer is not working. Therefore if I buy a computer without an OS and it boots Windows then it is not working and I should get a refund.
Then we have to figure out why Joe Sixpack freezes in front of an empty PC but not in front of an empty game console. Perhaps it's because the BIOS of the PS1 and PS2 game consoles has some sort of user interface, as if it were a Built-In Operating System rather than just a Basic Input-Output System. Adding a friendlier BIOS UI to the commodity personal computer might make it easier for Joe Sixpack to realize that he can put in an OS CD.
Then please help me understand.
Hell, no. This is simply the web appliance fallacy revisited. Your one-way ticket to liquidation.If people have bought PCs as appliances for the last twenty-five years, then why are appliances suddenly unacceptable?
The non-technical user does not want anything stripped away. He does not want to look under the hood. Ever. He wants a general-purpose machine that will adapt to his changing needs and interests without complaint.And a PC with a bundled Linux CD is not? It's like a nearly fully assembled bicycle where the only assembly required is putting the pedals on the crank (plugging in the monitor, keyboard, and mouse) and snapping on the handlebars (installing the OS).
I am a big fan of freedom. Everyones.
You as a buyer have the right to purchase from HP, Dell, Joe Blow, Build it yourself, anyone. And there are OS free options in any 1/2 size town in a non third world, plus on-line shops. So bottom line, use your freedom and buy from someone besides HP etc if you don't want windows on your PC. It is HP's freedom (or should be) to sell their products as they see fit...with or without OS, with or without Optical drives, with or without CPU's installed etc. If they don't have an option you like, shop elsewhere. If there isn't a market for HP that warrants the extra cost of building/advertising/etc non Windows PC's why should anyone force them? It just costs the company (and shareholders) money...which in reality just gets passed on as additional cost in those items that do sell.
Freedom is for me AND you. Remember that.
I'm sure HP doesn't make every part that is in a computer. They don't make the CPU. But that's essential, right? What about the hard drive, is that essential? How about the mouse or the keyboard? Those could be considered essential, but there are lots of computers without them. Is a sound card essential? What other areas can this stupidity be applied to? How about third party console developers? Doesn't the purchase of their products require the purchase of a console. Microwave popcorn usually requires a microwave. This is a retarded law from a retarded country and only the retards on slashdot could possibly find joy in this.
this One Laptop Per Child idea should remove its Linux OS as an installed default and allow the children to choose which operating system they want to use with their laptop.
You can be sure that the OLPC project will be much easier for HP to work with than Microsoft is. As things stand now, if HP did bother to sell the OLPC they would have to make it more expensive than any similar laptops they have that are able to run Windoze. The day OLPC charges money for their software and threatens vendors with higher prices for anything that violates OLPC's will, that will be the day your post starts to make sense. In the mean time, HP can't do so much as tell you how much M$ charges them for their distinctly third rate OS which they must sell below the cost of much better alternatives.
In France, the OLPC costs will be easy to break down for legal compliance: laptop - subsidized $100, Linux OS - free and complete with source code for any hardware you chose, Alternate OS - unknown ask Bill gates why.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Fuck France.
just think that it shouldn't be Mandated (by Microsoft) that I should only be able to buy machines with MS-Windows from any majour Manufacturer
Notwithstanding the spelling nazism, you don't have to buy a system with Windows or nothing. You can brew your own. I have yet to buy a new system in 12 years.
I just shouldn't be punished by HP for not wanting to use the OS that they want to hoist on me
No, if you _CHOOSE_ to buy HP, you _CHOOSE_ to be penalised by the OS (a bundle deal) and you also _CHOOSE_ to purchase a low spec, badly balanced machine at an inflated price. If you're up for that, I'd suggest that you're part of the mom+dad market they're targetting. If you actually care about the hardware+software+longevity of your system, I'd suggest you wouldn't be in the market for an HP.
I'd suggest mod -1, specious for the above.
Or perhaps you will get a market for vendors selling operating systems? And more clued customers?
I can throw myself at the ground, and miss.
http://dictionary.reference.com/cite.html?qh=pract ical&ia=luna
Click, and read.
Now tell me which definition of the word 'practical' you are using to describe being forced to pay for something you are not going to use in order to purchase something that you *are* going to use.
You are confusing 'practical' with some other word.
Again, assuming youre geting a wintel box and you want something like ubuntu or something else on it, then you're going to format or partition the drive, and install what you want. You already decided the action of installing your OS was worth it, and that would all be the same with a box with no OS pre-installed. "Practical" refers to an amount of action, not to value.
The only thing you've lost is money by paying the MS premium. So again, it's a matter of money, not time and effort.
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
Lets see! We'll play this back. HP feels bad about selling a computer without an operating system. Operating systems are not
HP's business. However, HP sells its ink jet printers without USB cables! How functional is that? In truth, Microsoft was ways of making sure that hardware vendors play ball with it or else. They could design 'patches', 'security patches' to its windows system and force all its slave army of XP/Vista bots to download them whether the duped so called owners wanted them or not. The new patches would simply shut down all HP computers and guarantee no micro$ software worked on any HP system...or at least not after the next 'patch/upgrade?!' cycle. Alternatively they could do what they have done for years: any vendor or manufacturer that sells a plain box without 'windows' will not be able to buy windows' products at all. This would shut them down from a large part of the installed monopoly of system. Somehow our government charged with the responsibility for upholding our laws is blatantly and willfully ignoring a notorious violator of laws like the Sherman Anti-Trust Act which address directly micro$ egregious combinations in restraint of trade in these areas.
On top of this, I have an Averatec Lap top, a unit made for Wal-Mart. It has a firmware in it somewhere that prevents the loading or running of any but windows XP. Any other operating system will not run correctly. Win2K will only run in 16color 640x480 resolution. All video drivers that claim to run on its motherboard incorporated VIA video refuse to run and lock up the computer, requiring a complete reinstall of a new operating system. Linux only runs in frame buffer mode, and that is probably because micro$ engineers did not know how to tell VIA how to sabotage linux completely. This is illustrative of the predatory trade policies of microsoft in combination with its slave army of hardware suppliers.
So in the hypothetical tinfoil hat situation you describe, Microsoft intentionally disables Windows on the many thousands of HP computers worldwide. Complaints fire off, lawsuits follow, HP and Microsoft spend tens to hundreds of millions, anti-trust litigation occurs against Microsoft in all affected countries. Something that large would be enough to destroy the confidence of both home consumers and big business - HP is a big-seller in the workstation market. Microsoft would be fucked. So would HP probably. You and your brethren can sing and dance in the streets that the Great Evil has been slain. Hurrah!
As far as the Wal-Mart thing goes, if it's truly a case of intentional hobbling and not a legitimate situation where proprietary laptop video drivers simply aren't available for other operating systems (video driver support is a common problem with many laptops in my experience) then you should be complaining like hell to Walmart and/or Microsoft.
The perpetrator in your little tirade here is Microsoft, not HP. While HP aren't angels themselves if Microsoft are committing illegal anti-competitive acts then the lawsuits should be against Microsoft for those acts, not against a single PC vendor under a law which seems completely ridiculous and won't solve any of the issues you've listed. If anti-competitive issues are truly the issue then they should be dealt with head-on, not treated like some half-assed game of Whack-A-Mole against the PC vendors for whatever obscure law they can find.
Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.
"Practical" refers to an amount of action, not to value.
Frankly, that is bullshit.
Let me be more specific than saying you're full of shit.
The extra cost to the product means that if you are a small to medium business buying 100 machines, and you have to pay a 10% premium to Microsoft on each unit (You said $50, right? The average non-gaming desktop is well under $500 these days), that means instead of 10 more actual computers that would have practical use, you got nothing of value.
Besides, your original argument was that a computer without Windows was "practically useless". I think it would be better to say that your argument is practically the definition of absurd.
1. I used your definitions;
2. What a wonderful way with words!
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
Ah. By changing the scale, now you have a completely different problem.
Similarly:
One cow in the front yard is a olfactory issue.
A hundred cows in the front yard is now an engineering issue.
"Powers Of Ten" is a great classic resource for appreciating that in changing scale you also change the rules.
All the best,
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
I'm sorry, but throwing away 10% of your resources is the same problem either way. Scaling it up by ten just helps illustrate the problem to people who don't see it.
When the issue at hand is all computers bought in a single country that don't run windows, what scale would you say that is? I'd say that it is measurable economic impact.
No, it's not.
Power and unintended consequences come into play in very different ways when you scale things.
And if someone believes it is just the same thing x 200 or 2,000, they'll be fooled into thinking that scaling a given problem does not change the resulting issues - a potentially fatal mistake.
And they will fail miserably at solving most larger problems.
A jetliner crashing is not the same as 200 Cessnas crashing, and vice versa.
One mosquito in your house does not require the same solution as a million mosquitoes in your house, again vice versa.
The tabletop model of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge held up just fine, thank you, and could stand in the Narrows until the next ice age.
The full size one could not.
This is why the Eames made "Powers of Ten" - because engineers and designers didn't understand that different scales exhibit different challenges.
Now, back to the original premise to which I responded: that a computer without an OS is functional.
Technically true, put practically not. A currently shipping retail computer minus its OS is essentially useless for its intended purpose.
You claimed that paying for the OS the French consumer doesn't want was impractical, I claimed that it's really just a matter of a few bucks, the effort to install the OS of your choice is the same. At that point your links to the definition of 'practical' all mentioned pratcice or action, none mentioned monetary value.
You changed the rules - you scaled the problem by an order of magnitude, and now to an entire country. Which changes the problem from that original consumer in France who doesn't want to pay for Windows if they don't like Windows.
At that point, it does become a different scenario with many more times the challenges than that consumer in France. For your mega-scale scenario, cost becomes a major issue (along with about a hundred other things that consumer in France won't ever have to consider).
For that consumer in France, the cost difference is a matter of the price of a pair of sneakers.
For an entire country, that amount of money could become the price of a new school - and in this example - it's pretty clear that costing a country a school isn't just a larger version of an end user who doesn't get another pair of sneakers.
But back to the original position.
Pre-installed or not, he still has to install the OS of his choice to make the computer functional if he wants "no Windows".
It's the same effort - there will be no change in the action needed for the consumer even if UFC wins this case and they have to sell PCs sans OS.
So Pierre still has to do all the same heavy lifting as before, bundle or no bundle. And oh yeah, he's out $50. That's where I originally supposed that the consumer / UFC wasn't arguing practicality, just money. Even the original suit claims it's about reimbursement for unwanted OS, and makes no mention about the action the end user is still going to have to expend if they get their way.
But hey - if you still feel the four-letter-word-approach is working, good luck with that.
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
...which would be a'la mode. (Don't any of you try to sue me if you stick ice cream in your new PC ;)
What I mean is, provide a multiple-choice solution for customers; give them more than just one OOB (Out Of Box) option.
The current OOB model:
This, I believe, is the concern that the French are trying to voice.
Now, consider this model:
How does this mitigate French law? Simple! It breaks the "anti-trust" nature of a 1:1 product offering (1 machine, 1 platform) and gives the choice to the consumer.
Frankly, I think HP would do well to consider a "paradigm of choice" rather than allow their consumer line of PC's getting pimped my Mr. Ballmer to continue. Poor Spitzmuller, he's just doing his job. (though he is basically a lawyer)
This post © Copyrite Duggeek, all rights reversed.