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Explosives Camp
theodp writes "How about a summer camp where you get in trouble for not blowing things up? Students with a passion for all things explosive and proof of US citizenship pay a $450 fee to attend Summer Explosives Camp, 'We try to give them an absolute smorgasbord of explosives,' quipped a professor at the University of Missouri-Rolla, which offers a minor in explosives engineering. Here's the brochure (PDF), kids!"
Need I say more, cousin Osama. You buy the plane ticket, I'll get the passports.
Trying to become famous by taking photos. Visit my homepage please.
I predict this will not end well =p
"Application deadline is April 1, 2007"
So why is this even being submitted now? It's not like it has any relevance for the rest of the year.
Sounds like a blast.
GNAA
Can I go?
The application deadline is on April Fool's day? Isnt that a blast?
**Life is too short to be serious**
Why is US citizenship required? Its especially funny as the professor conducting the camp is a Briton and not a US citizen. And its not like mines us explosives only in the US. People come to the US from all over the world for the best education available. Why would you think a foreigner who wants to be a mining engineer is not a valid candidate?
**Life is too short to be serious**
Dad will be so proud.
I think all schools should have a mine.
Preferably a salt mine - they can use it for detention.
If you were going to blow shit up, Osama style, you would certainly NOT need to go to a childs' educational camp to do it. More power to people making science more interesting for kids.
Now we where the people making all the trains and planes in Iran going boom got their training. No wonder theres a shortage of mining engineers. The CIA pays much better wages than any mining company.
**Life is too short to be serious**
can't wait to see the end-of-camp group shots - powder smudged faces, bandages, tattered clothing hanging from severed limbs...ah, the memories!
Mongrel News all the news that fits and froths
Obviouthly it's a technical thchool and not anything near the ivy leagueths... The brothure acthually stateth that the deadline for applicanth is April 1th.
Yes. The 1th.
Not the 1st. Becauth they're not that type of inthituthun. Dammit, Jim, they're miners, not phythithiths!
I wonder if the kids can get a package deal and go to Jesus Camp too
According to the EU Commission at least http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/07/04/ec_frattin i_web_terror_dunce_cap/
I bet if they really wanted to make some money drop the following requirements:
:)
"This camp is limited to 20 Junior and Senior high school students who are interested in enrolling at UMR and are at least 16 by the first day of camp."
I am sure there are quite a few people out there with lots of "disposable income" that would pay lots to do this. I know I had to take a look - maybe something worth a week or two of vacation time, especially seeing the 450 dollar price tag (not sure what my upper limit would be, depends on what stuff I get to play with). Alas, being 30+ pretty much puts me out of that class. There are "body guard" classes that take advantage of the same thing - it's neat to drive a car in that manner even if you live in an area that allows controlled live firearm courses.
Really, I know what I can and can not do and is why I do not play with real explosives, I like really big "booms" yet legally can not purchase them nor do I really know how to safely set them off. One would think there is *someplace* I can pay someone to let me make them, or at least blow some stuff up. I suppose there is too much liability, but I would have thought that with this type of thing even more so than allowing an older group to do so. I have no real excuse if I do something incredibly stupid, yet a 17 year old can get away with many things I can not - the 30+ year olds shouldn't have shown the 17 year olds how sparklers can explode if done wrong.
To note, I'm happy they have such and am not against it - almost anything the expands our abilities I am for. The previous is just a wish list for "older" people. In fact, I guess the older the more likely they would want too and be able to afford too set off some *big* explosives
------- Sorry about the spelling, I suffer from two problems. Dyslexia makes it difficult to spell well, lazy makes it
Suppose somebody named McVeigh, or Cho attends.
Anybody could be a terrorist.
D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
If other people attended, they might get a free trip to Cuba courtesy of the government?
Might still get one if they were US citizens, but also Muslim.
Me? I'm just glad I had a nice chemistry teacher who let us have a little fun in a controlled environment. People are so paranoid these days, though, that I doubt there will be many such teachers in the future, even though I've never harmed a soul with what I learned, and I don't intend to.
Why would a terrorist in possession of explosives need to be educated in how to use them to blast off the side of an open pit mine? You don't exactly need any special training to set off explosives in a suicide bomb attack (making explosives on the other hand would need special expertise).
It is extremely sad that science and chemistry are being destroyed in the name of "fighting terrorism". Explosives, chemistry and other "dangerous terrorist activities" are used extensively in many industries. Most people are completely oblivious to this fact, and don't have a clue about how 'heavy industries' work. Therefore they continually do stupid things like call for a ban of chemistry in school or a ban of explosive substances needed for mining and other industries. School chemistry is already so useless and watered down (mostly because of the threat of litigation if something goes wrong) that I fail to see how there will be enough chemists in the future within mining and manufacturing industries.
Why pay $450? All we used to do was throw our camp supplied industrial size cans of tuna, baked beans, and spaghetti onto the camp fire.... and run! Just beware the flying lid shrapnel.. oh yeah.. and hot tuna... not great on the nose either.
I can build a bomb without going to a silly camp. With enough determination, I could destroy anything I chose. When will people stop thinking "oh, if we just shut down all the 'dangerous' activities, we'll all be safe from terrorists"? It was communists, now it's terrorists - there's always a boogeyman.
We should not take chances with this. Lives are at stake.
It's this kind of reflex thinking that would encourage someone to get enrolled and attend classes wearing a turban muttering occasional Allahu Akbar under his breath. Just for laughs.
Lighten up. The country is filled with people who drive cars, own and carry guns, have arguments with their ex-wives, hold a grudge against the IRS, hate the President, or work at the post office. I'd be more worried about the sheer numbers of people in any of those groups before I'd worry about someone who wants to pursue what could be described as a slightly juvenile interest or hobby.
In fact the people who go to the camp would have a greater appreciation of the dangers of explosives and be safer than those idiots on YouTube with the anarchists cookbook.
D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
Begin anti-terror rants.
Surely this will provide GW with proof that terrorist training camps are being set up within the united states. Maybe he will invade.
Makes about as much sense as panicking about who can go do a course that looks like a lot of fun.
"Dark Wings, Dark Words"
Screw the Boy Scouts! No one needs to know how to tie a frickin' knot, nor do we need to know how to build a stupid soap box car.
Lets create the Urban Scouts, where children will learn how to pick locks, phone phreak, hack computers, and social engineer.
I wonder if I use bold in my signature, people will notice my posts.
Yes and let's ban the intartubes while we're at it. Last I checked, you could find plans for just about any type of explosive you want. After all, lives are at stake.
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
while all the other kids are into Nintendo. But where are the helicopters?!
or some other Arabic name. Just ask the people of Oklahoma City.
Did anybody else catch that safety was number 2?
1. How to prime and shoot dynamite.
2. Safety precautions when handling explosives.
3. Where explosives are used.
4. The curriculum and department of Mining Engineering at UMR.
5. What careers are available that are explosive related.
6. How underground blasts work.
7. How explosives are used in industry.
8. How to set up and shoot off a fireworks display.
Right, so it's OK for USA to teach its kids about explosives? Imagine the outcry if someone heard about a similar program taking place, say, in Iran. I can already see the headline we would be getting: "Iran training dozens of kids into becoming terrorists with an expertise in explosives."
This is the same sort of fuzzy logic we see with USA possessing nuclear weapons and yet demanding that Iran be prevented from ever having any.
Software is not supposed to be about how to work around a useability issue. - Ken Barber
Mining? Chemicals? I thought we were going to buy that kind of stuff from the Chinese, so we can concentrate on services with higher value added?
Mining explosives is a very specialised subject. The object is to produce shock waves with no blast and no fire (think about it.) You want to break up rock or minerals with the absolute minimum of side effects, using the absolute minimum amount of energy necessary and raising as little dust as possible, not only because of health and safety risks but because any other approach adds cost. If you want to be a mining engineer, you learn explosives at mining school not summer camp. And you learn it, mostly, from mining engineers who are still alive, which gives you some confidence in the training. No, I am not a mining engineer, but I have talked to enough of them, in South Africa and elsewhere, and most of us would not want to earn our living that way.
Pining for the fjords
Are US citizens more capable of handling explosives? Or do they have a lower tendency to cause harm with intent by way of explosives?
"Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
Encourage them? More encouragement comes from the madrassas that teach radical Islamic fundamentalism with an anti-West ideology. These are the breeding grounds for terrorists.
> You don't exactly need any special training to set off explosives in a suicide bomb attack (making explosives on the other hand would need special expertise).
r orist_speci_1.html
Yes you do. Bruce Schneier ("Secrets and Lies") says the reason the Glasgow Attacks were a failure was because the terrorists didn't know how to use them: "putting a propane tank into a car and driving into a building at high speed is the sort of thing that only works in old episodes of The A Team. On television, you get a massive, extensive explosion. In real life, you only get a small localized fire." http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/07/ter
Yeah. "Explosives Camp" seems cool and funny, until someone uses what they learn to blow something up, then there will be an outcry, "Why didn't anyone see this coming?" and finally Congress will pass some bill with a stupid name "The Proud to be an American Bill" to soothe the jittery public. The fact that I have to justify why this is dumb, and that people say it isn't, amazes me. I mean, how stupid can the human race get?
It's not like Domestic Terrorism isn't without Precedent, and at that, on a large scale. $450 and proof of American Citizenship. McVeigh was an American Citizen. Dumb.
Here I am at, Camp Grenade-a.
Camp is very entertaining,
And they say we'll have some fun when we start detonating...
... Mythbusters Camp.
Heck, they blow up enough stuff there, why not.
You could even have the MB crew there - all the blokes would be chanting "Kari! Kari! Kari!", and Jamie & Adam would just be standing there wondering why they bothered turning up at all.
Where does it say that the camp is restricted to US Citizens? I can't find it anywhere (e.g. from "How do I get selected?") Considering how rare it is for Americans to have passports and how common it is to be non-citizen in US, I'd be quite surprised for the Citizenship requirement.
--
Binaries may die but source code lives forever
You've been selected to attend the premier explosives training event in the US! You'll learn just how explosives work, what makes the best bang, what makes the best flash, and so much more!*
*Note: Attendees may(read:will) be entered into the US DoD terrorist watch list. Side effects may include random wiretaps, strange helicopters nearby, and inability to board airlines. Have fun!
Why should I pay $540 for the course when I can learn the same skills from certain not-so-friendly groups and actually also get paid for it! Saudi Ozzie, here I come.
I wish we had things like that in the UK. I also wish I wasn't nearly 30 and thus could go to them if we did have them.
All of this reminds me that I need to renew my explosives certificate.
Yeah, I had a sig once; I got bored of it.
I kinda doubt that the CIA can't find better training than this. Mind you, I'm not from the US, but I thought each army has their own engineers branch which offers more in-depth knowledge about demolitions and military use of explosives than a summer camp. Including how to safely get rid of the explosives if, say, the convoy you were expected didn't pass that way. I'd think CIA would have no problems getting a trainer from the army or navy and organizing their own training.
If nothing else, reading TFA, it doesn't seem like it would make that useful training for 007-like or terrorist use of explosives. Stuff like how to safely blow up a side of quarry, or better yet, how to make a spud gun, are useful for mining or respectively entertainment, but don't translate well into how to do that much else with explosives.
Or, rather, not much that you couldn't already google. I mean, you can look up ANFO on Wikipedia, and that's the main explosive used by the mining industry. If you can buy the ammonium nitrate and wanted to make a car bomb with that, you don't really need courses in how to drill the holes and calculate the dosage to blast a rock face in a quarry.
Also, about CIA use, again, I may be wrong about America, but it seems to me that:
1. People aren't that interchangeable between mining jobs and covert ops type jobs. Just knowing how to drill a hole and prime a stick of dynamite doesn't also make you want to go abroad and blow up some Arabs. Between making a decent risk-free living at home and going and risking your life abroad for better pay, most people would choose the first.
2. And it doesn't mean you even could, probably. About 95% of the people have this interlock in the brains against being _too_ mean to other people. About 3% are sociopaths, and don't. And there are a few more in between. So, really, statistically chances are higher that you'd be in the "nice guy" category, not in the "sociopath" cathegory.
The army has had millenia of figuring out how to (A) drill people into executing some stuff mechanically against cardboard targets or with blanks, until it becomes reflex by the time they have to do it against live targets. (B) Instill an "us vs them" theme and some groupthink notions of duty, honour, patriotism, etc, to help get people pull the trigger even if they don't really want to. (C) Getting people in a situation in which, one way or the other, it's your ass if you don't cap that other guy. Now that really helps get people to pull the trigger. (D) Creating a whole organization and hierarchy for dissipating responsibility, so noone from the guy who mines pitchblende to the general who orders the strike to the pilot who drops the atom bomb on Hiroshima feels particularly responsible for it all.
And it still gets a lot of people waking up in cold sweat for the rest of their lives, a.k.a., Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder.
Heck, even some of the war atrocities are, ironically, traceable to the fact that man wasn't designed to kill man. People either get to (A) break down not understanding why the other guys shoot at him, what's wrong with them? Are they savage animals? and/or (B) get caught in that grouphink trap, thinking everyone else around is brave and fearless and all patriotic, and do dumb things to hide the fact that personally they're scared shitless.
Anyway, a lot of those only work in a group, and only work in a situation where it's short term "it's either them or me" and no easy way out. It doesn't quite apply to a lone killers.
Briefly, it might be a lot easier easier to first select with someone without scruples and give them explosives training, than to convert a peaceful mining engineer into a commando trooper.
3. The last person you'd want in the army or some secret service is some "Explosions are cool, Beavis!" type who makes spud guns or blows stuff up when they're bored, and wears a "I [heart] explosives" t-shirt. You'd probably want someone a lot more mentally stable than that.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
Blowing things up really isn't all that fun. I was a demo guy in the Army and for the most part it was a pain in the ass. I do like the feeling when the wave of energy passes through your body but we always hunkered down and never actually witnessed an explosion because of the danger factor. And in Iraq it was a lot of hard work to pile up shell after shell of UXOs or captured IED components in 130 degree heat.
You can have the demo camp. I want a $450 camp where you just lay on a beach and get drunk with beautiful women. Where's that brochure?
The country is filled with people who drive cars, own and carry guns,
Heh. And what frightens the shit out of me more, is that ALL of them can vote
Agreed. It's completely silly.
Yes, knowledge is dangerous. But ignorance is *MUCH* more dangerous.
Humans in the world today overwhelmingly suffer and die as a result of *lack* of knowledge. (or to some degree, lack of *application* of knowledge)
I live a *much* safer life because I live in a country where there are experts on explosives, poisons, dangerous creatures, radioactive substances, cancerous agents and firearms.
Any idiot can figure out how to make a fertilizer-bomb. If anything amazes me with the London-incident it is the amateurishness of it all. Pathethic, frankly. Not even a -single- fatality ? *8* people plan a "terrorist"-attack, and they, combined, don't even manage to kill a *single* human being ? Pathethic is to weak a word for performances such as these.
Reduce, reuse, cycle
Britain/Europe is working on making publishing information on how to make bombs illegal. Burn the books, Burn the books!
t icle2023030.ece
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/ar
226 McNutt Hall
University of Missouri-Rolla
Rolla, MO 65409
That's because safety information has more punch when you're able to show what happens when you do NOT heed them. So after step one, the intro to step two is most likely "See, kids, and this happens when you forget to..."
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
The 'problem' that leads to pointless attacks and shit is a simple one. Anyone who's crazy enough to attempt shit like that is probably to crazy to do it right. There's a very narrow line of sanity where you're together enough to put together a bomb without deciding that the detonator is badmouthing your mother and whacking shit with a hammer till your blow your face off and crazy enough so that "Hey, I disagree with (X), I will present a cool and logical argument in favor of my point of view by blowing the shit out of (Y)." sounds like a good idea. If you're more sane then you can follow bomb making instructions and plan an attack, but you probably won't think it's a good idea and if you're crazier then you won't be able to pull it off. Of course, there's always the sociopaths and whatnot who are a different kind of crazy and are functional while still being brutal and bonkers.
Heh, UMR. The school with a 3-1 male/female ratio...Only reason I'm thinking about going is for the explosives class (and a free ride) but other than that I'm looking out of state. Also, they just changed their name to the Missouri Institute of Science and Technology, or MUST for short. Gooooo MUSTy Miners! (Who mine with a slide rule o.O)
... and we're in business!
Umm, step 4 should be profit.
where else can you get yourself put on a terrorist watch list for $450?
lol: You see no door there!
...where else can you get yourself put on a terrorist watch list for $450?
--
Lots of people got it for free.
Say, that summer camp looks like a real blast!
eleven plus two / twelve plus one
The history of my family on one side is a 150 year process of moving from coal mining through railways to systems design, but I still keep a non-toy miner's lamp in full working order as a reminder, twin meshes and magnetic catch and all. Coal mining is a long way from safe.
Pining for the fjords
> The school with a 3-1 male/female ratio.
Going to go to an explosive school to meet chicks? Guess that rules out Osama.
Everyone that attends this camp will be put on a "Watch List" forever. It might be cool for someone to experience this sort of camp, but later in life you might not think it was cool when a couple of G-men knock on your door "to ask a few questions". Paranoid? You betcha!
I get you. But I don't think I really agree with you. Oh, sure, without shadow of a doubt *some* people who place bombs or otherwise threathen public safety are batshit-crazy.
But not all of them. And besides, it's possible to be complete batshit crazy in one area, while nevertheless thinking clearly and reasoning intelligently in other areas.
Besides, some of it actually ain't crazy. Blowing up american soldiers occupying Iraq is, infact, quite likely to achieve or accelerate the goal of getting rid of the American troops in Iraq. Not by military defeat, but by virtue of defeating the US military machinery on the only field where it can realistically be beat today: In the court of public opinion in the USA.
When the months pass, and young American men who has done nothing wrong, and indeed are willing to put their lives on the line for defending something they believe in, keep dying and dying and dying, and no progress is in sigth, the American public tends to get fed up, and start asking questions as to what the soliders are supposed to *acomplish* anyway, and if there exists an actual plan for acomplishing it. Today less than 30% of the US public thinks Bush is doing a good job in Iraq.
Blowing up civilians in London is different. True. And I actually think it *increases* the chance that more Arabic countries will stay or become occupied. But evidently not everyone shares this belief.
At the bottom of the
Wasn't the unabomber a US citizen?
The US citizen != Terrorist logic is false. Like most false logic trusting it leads to trouble.
--- Users are like bacteria -> Each one causing a thousand tiny crises until the host finally gives up and dies.
At Bomb Camp...
No, I can't finish that....
RoseColor red={0, 0xffff, 0x0000, 0x0000};VioletColour blue={0, 0x0000, 0x0000, 0xffff};find / -name *mybase*|chown you
Explosive ordinance disposal is one of the best growth areas in security these days. I mean, beyond hooking up some C4 and tossing it on suspect devices, the real skills require explosives experts, and every American we can teach these skills is another bomb making terrorist we can neutralize. No one who goes to this school (assuming their real names and fingerprints are on file) is going to be a risk, and it might inspire them to save some lives instead of going into mining.
http://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
Let's not congratulate ourselves on the zero death toll just yet. It seems many of the perpetrators were doctors. Who knows how many people they could have infected with AIDS or dosed with radiological poisons?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Anonymous Coward,
As a father whose daughter asked to go last year and was accepted, SAFETY was the first and foremost emphasis. Not only did my daughter have a "blast" (pun intended) it built up her confidence and now she has chosen engineering as her major. She will be attending UM-Rolla next year as a freshman. The course was not only very well done with lectures and practicum, it was done on an campus that refuses to be politically correct. Would be terrorists were weeded out. Some child threatened to blow up a building from the middle east and he was deported 12 hours later. I think they know a lot about safety.
Importing talent also helps to hide the devastation of our own talent produced by our own education system. My daughter, 16, just enrolled in a high school embedded in a junior college, where over the next two years she will "complete" her high school "studies", while at the same time earning an AA degree. It sounds good until you realize that it's an admission by the system that the last two years of high school are *completely worthless*.
./ will post "I for one welcome our new, educated, Masters".
True story: I know of two California students, one just got an A in 11th grade chemistry, the other just did 11th grade AP chemistry. Both of them learned "compost is good for agriculture". Neither of them heard, or at least remembered, any mention of nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, or *any* actual _chemicals_. When I did 11th grade chemistry it was all about the periodic table, valence and stoichiometry.
CA has created the perfect curriculum. It is guaranteed that no group will perform better than any other group. The content has been removed, but hey, who _really_ cares. First things first.
In a few decades chemistry will be replaced by subjects more suitable, such as advanced groveling, servile-mode Mandarin, etc. Someone on
--
phunctor
"bah!"
There's nothing about congratulating. As I quite clearly stated -- the very limited damage was due to an almost unbelievable incompetance of the so-called 'terrorists', wannabes would almost be more apropriate. Seriously, 8 people put their mind to doing damage, and manage to come up with -zero- dead and a puny few million damages ? There is no indication whatsoever that they carried trough *other* *unrelated* harmful acts, so your post amounts to completely groundless hypothethical "what-if". What if they had instead blown up a 10 megaton atomic bomb at the Super Bowl. What if they had instead made the sun go Nova ! (wait, that'd toast Mekka too :-))
I'm not sure I approve. I've met a chemistry professor and summer program teen instructor who sprinkled the iodide crystals around the lab floor so they would pop underfoot the first day of class. He had a student go home and fatally blow himself up in the garage.
The kid had responsibility but its not an entirely clean argument because you are showing people who aren't adults how to do cool lethal things. The bright, self-motivated, risk takers who could turn out to be great adults in fact. The instructor continued to use the demonstration for that first day of class "wow" factor but for everybody's good, including his peace of mind, he ramped up his "scared straight" speech to uncool levels that they _would_not_ do this at home.
So a teen school dedicated solely to high explosives? What are the odds we'll hear about at least one of their students in future news?
You sound almost disappointed that no one died. I could think of several adjectives to describe this attempted mass murder, but I don't think I'd use 'pathetic'.
I'll see your claims of 24 murders over the past 20 years, and raise it.
:-P
And you really have to wonder about a site that tracks "Number of Incidents of Picketing" as evidence of "violence and harassment". I guess free speech is OK for you, but not for anyone who disagrees with you.
The "Weekly Jihad Report" for the week of June 23-29 lists 62 acts of Islamic terrorism, claiming 320 lives and 420 critically injured.
That's just one week.
320 people KILLED by Islamic extremists. In just ONE WEEK.
Here you go, you blithering naif:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
Maybe I can get my son interested in my field by showing him how to turn a floppy into a bomb lol. Anyone got nail polish?? My wifes all out.
This is Slashdot! Give me the latest gadget, bug, or OS project! This ain't english class so don't confuse the two!
If you pass the test, you are dead.
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
I have to disagree theregister's assessment. It is true that the 'terrorists' do not appear to have been particularly well trained, but what do you imagine would be the effect on the gas cylinders inside a burning car soaked in petrol? They would have exploded. Not with the power of dynamite or perhaps even some improvised home-made explosive, and probably not able to blast the nails very far, but there would have been a fireball and some blast damage. If you think otherwise, would you be prepared to stand near to such a burning car? I suspect not. At the time that the devices were intended to ignite there would have been a significant presence of late night revelers in the area. I accept the police experts assessed it as being a 'viable device' whereas the 'experts' consulted by theregister are not even identified. Who would you believe? The police did not say it was of an advanced design nor will they detail its failings - they don't want to provide additional help and advice to the next group of bombers, do they? But it would have caused damage and potentially loss of life if it had ignited properly. We do not yet know why the bombs did not ignite and it is possible that something that the would-be bombers purchased to manufacture the bomb was below standard which would hardly mean the terrorists were incompetent, simply that we were lucky. Of course, if like theregister you only consider bombs to be effective if they kill more than 'x' people then you like they have a very low opinion of human life. Even one life is too many. I do agree that this particular attack does not, by itself, appear to justify the expenditure that the UK government has made in combating terrorism. The public does not have all the facts and cannot make such a judgment. If one does not agree with how the politicians and security forces are handling the situation then one should make sure that one uses his/her vote at the next election to elect a party that will do more of whatever it is one thinks they should be doing. If not, one has to accept that the government and everyone else are doing the best that they can although they, like anyone else, are far from being perfect and mistakes will be made from time to time. I also agree that the terrorists would also benefit from the training being discussed in this thread. They might be using different explosives but learning a little more about where and how to place them for maximum effect would undoubtedly be useful information.
Have a look at soylentnews.org for a different view
"I know this is way too much thinkofthechildren, but as a kid, I nearly blew my hands of several times, and I dont want my kids to do what I did."
Your post makes your point quite nicely, that is, people as stupid as you should not be handling explosives.
Unfortunately it appears too late to stop you from spreading your stupidity...
Well, you can for $1295 in Oregon, and the price includes transportation, meals and all the high-order explosives!
(This post does not represent any endorsement of said program)
My blog
No shit. If safety was first, they wouldn't have explosives at all. It'd be called "padded cell camp."
Anyone who really wants to put safety first should stay in bed.
--kyler
But on the other hand, it is illegal without a licence, and for a very good reason, and to give this knowlegde to unlicenced kids?
I think this is a terrible attitude, and it's sad.
You need a license to buy explosives, not to learn about them. One of the precepts of our entire society is that information isn't sectioned off into little 'need-to-know' chunks, controlled by cabals or trade organizations.
You can't practice medicine without a license either, but nobody goes around trying to lock up all the first-aid manuals or anatomy textbooks. We don't let random individuals set up shop as Professional Engineers and start greenlighting bridges, but anyone who wants to can go and read about finite element analysis; there's no secrets there.
Turning society into a series of closed, medieval-Masonic-ish 'knowledge cults' isn't going to help us in the long run. And frankly, if that sort of secrecy is what's required to "protect" society from terrorists, I seriously question the value of what you're preserving.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
Now that sounds very interesting. I think it was more of a precaution that they sent him off rather keep him there.
1 + 1 = 3?
I am happy that nobody died. Nevertheless, this doesn't change the simple fact that a group of people, 8 people large, planning a terrorist-attack over a period of months, with an outcome such as this, has made a pathethic attempt.
pathetic:Arousing scornful pity or contempt, often due to miserable inadequacy.
I think that covers it pretty well, actually.This is the most popular type of explosive used when making car bombs. They've known it for years. McVeigh used this. It's been on prime time news.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that the GP was being a wee bit sarcastic.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
*allison hannigan voice* And this one time at explosives camp...
Kwisatz Haderach
Sell the spice to CHOAM
This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
It's a similar situation to guns of any type. Would we rather see these kids doing this under the supervision of trained people who know what they are doing or going to some random website and figuring out how to do it themselves and having no precautions?
I would love to go to this camp, it sounds very interesting - and far superior to the camps I went to as a highschool student.
If you were offended by anything I said... No, I'm not sorry. Please lighten up.
Still. It's good that religious nuts don't believe in experimentation.
Deleted
Sheesh...combine this with Jesus Camp and we have our own terrorist training camps.
After working at Aberdeen Proving Ground for a couple of years I realized that blowing stuff up quickly becomes just a job. After getting over the "they are paying me to blow stuff up" thrill you realize how bogged down you have to be in safety procedures. It quickly becomes just another job. It is amazing how quickly you get used to hearing big booms in the background and the smell of burning brush and the sound of water carrying helicopters overhead putting out range fires. Soon you don't even notice it anymore.
If freedom is first, safety can't be!
Wikileaks, no DNS
Article is misleading! Not unusual for /. but still! You can ONLY go if you are a high school student and if you are considering UMR, and well, just read yourself from the FAQ:
Who gets to go? Twenty Junior and Senior high school students who are interested in enrolling at UMR and are at least 16 by the first day of camp.
"That's because safety information has more punch when you're able to show what happens when you"
The saftey briefing is done by Gary Überbanger, who walks out with no arms and half his face missing. People write down whatever he says.Most of the stuff on
None of the parents of your post were signed as ACs, neither yours. Why did you start your post with "Anonymous Coward"? Did you reply to the wrong person?
Your sig couldn't be more appropriate with your message :-).
"You superiour intellect is no match for our puny weapons" - The Simpsons
and worked for Professor Worsey in his lab. It was a great experience--got to blow stuff up, got some machine shop experience, got to work in the mine.
In reference to another thread, I seem to recall that Worsey is a US citizen. It was quite a multi-cultural experience, there was another prof from England, a brief visit from a South African, a Pole and a Russian.
If you meet Worsey (and aren't in mixed company), ask him about sheep and wellies...
have brown skin.
Explosives go to people camps!
Just walk up to the Whitehouse and you can get on it for free.
Say to somebody, "Take a good look at it. It isn't going to be here much longer. Just wait and see."
Okay, I'm not feeling motivated to sign my kids up, but can I set up a scholarship for the neighbor's kids?
B) Eliminate all the stupid users. This is frowned upon by society.
WHY do people mark me as a troll? Where's the sense in teaching people how to use explosives without even a background check? As far as I can tell, they're not even requiring people to piss in a cup. If you're working construction they're going to need at least that before you're going to be allowed to work with explosives.
Jeez, what's with the political correctness around here?
No weapon in the arsenals of the world is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men.-Ronald Reagan
unprimed dynamite can lead to serious premature explosion risks. It in itself is a safety measure.
Yeah, because security through obscurity is a great idea. Thanks for the help, geek.
Do Christians en masse support such violence? Yes or no?
Do Christians en masse dance in the street and hand out candy when 3,000 civilians are MURDERED? Yes or no?
Got the balls to answer any of those questions?
The post I was replying to was trying to claim Christians are violent. As if the reactions to "Piss Christ" were anything near the reactions to fake reports of flushing one single Koran. (Hey, Islamofascists - I use the Koran for toilet paper! HA HA!)
And the site that post implicitly claimed as authoritative had a column that tracked picketing events in a table of "violence and harassment". So, claims from that site are dubious at best.
And I'll freely admit that http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ is hardly an unbiased site. But even if only 10% of their claims are correct, that's one helluva stinging indictment of Islam. And we all know that they're correct on a helluva lot more than 10% of their claims.
Guess how many major world religions actively set out to claim non-members are sub-human and deserving of death? (And, FWIW, that a woman is worth only half of a man as a basic part of their theology...) Guess how many major world religions actively set out to breed suicide bombers?
I'm sorry, but your attempt at moral relativism has failed utterly. To put it simply and irrefutably, "turn the other cheek" != "72 virgins".
Dance all you want. You can't refute that.
> So after step one, the intro to step two is most likely "See, kids, and this happens when you forget to..."
Also known as the "We're gonna need another Timmy" method.
What "services"? Suicide bombing?
Obama likes poor people so much, he wants to make more of them.
... I shoved a stick of dynamite up this guys... well just go see for yourself.
Google for goatse, see what really happened!
To be fair, the building from the middle east was in the country illegally anyway.
How do you deport someone in the program if one of the requirements is U.S. citizenship? Where do you deport them TO?
I know you can have joint citizenship, but can you be subject to immediate revocation of your American citizenship AND immediate deportation without a hearing? More to the point, can you do that to a minor?
I don't mean to call your statement into question (okay, I guess I do, but I don't mean it as a personal attack) -- this just doesn't seem to add up somehow.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Menard's, Home Depot, Lowe's, etc.
Go buy a truck load of fertilizer on your credit card.
Buckle your ROFL belt, we're in for some LOLs.
Clearly a fictional response.
/. will give a post interesting/insightful without even the slightest thought if the person is making it all up, provided their grammar is passable and there is no glaringly obvious troll sentiment expressed.
User's first ever post. Includes a cockeyed story about a deportation (when as another poster pointed out, only US citizens can attend)
I love how mods on
Who said (or something like); "Mission First, Safety Always unless it conflicts with Mission"?
If you are taught to kill, then maybe you will live long enough too do some other less
important stuff like fuck and drink whatever is available.
Whoops, I am off-topic again, but this does relate to the cousin Bin Laden comment?
. . . __Remember: Learn to takeoff and fly, and god will take care of the rest.
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
If you are a dual national you can indeed lose your American citizenship. Whether or not it would be immediate, and then followed by deportation, most likely depends on the circumstances. Either way there's likely to be a hearing unless proof was given that the citizenship was obtained fraudulently.
Is the safety briefing done by J. Walter Weatherman? "And THAT'S why you never hold a live blasting cap"
A man who can't pronouce "nuclear arsenal" shouldn't have one -sig ends here.
cheney@whitehouse% grep -i lorded terrorist-watch-list.dat
cheney@whitehouse% LordEd 840443 slashdot.org
Yep. Now you're screwed.
...following the principles of Heisenburger's Uncertain Cat...
Right, so it's OK for USA to teach its kids about explosives? Imagine the outcry if someone heard about a similar program taking place, say, in Iran. I can already see the headline we would be getting: "Iran training dozens of kids into becoming terrorists with an expertise in explosives."
This is because far too many training areas in Iran (Imam Ali, Bahonar, Crate Camp, Fateh Qani-Hosseini, etc.) focus on training civilians in the military application of explosives. This is focused on the engineering applications of explosives. That said, I wonder how the people running the Explosives Camp would react if someone sponsored 20 or so poor, black, inner city kids with known gang affiliations but no arrest record for a few weeks at the camp.
This is the same sort of fuzzy logic we see with USA possessing nuclear weapons and yet demanding that Iran be prevented from ever having any.
So, a president who is a deranged religious fanatic, and surrounded by other religious fanatics with no sense of restraint... no, wait, that doesn't work. Oh... and who has said he considers the very existence of a particular country sufficient grounds for the use of nuclear weapons! Yeah, the US is in a particularly lousy position to argue it at the moment, but yes, I do think that nuclear weapons should be kept out of the hands of completely unrestrained lunatics whose view of history is massively delusional and counterfactual.
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
Look for the cheaper One Mine Per Child porject
I logged in as a parent. Note handle is joe-a-dad
My "what-if"s are plausible - whereas yours are mostly in fantasy land.
This was such an incredibly piss-poor effort that it makes me wonder if it was a some kind of diversionary move, either to draw attention from something else or to make the security forces complacent so the real action has more chance of succeeding.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
was going to post same thing
I'll just use my special getting high powers one more time...
If you are a dual national you can indeed lose your American citizenship.
Ummm... how?
Also, to grandparent, great-grandparent seems to mean "kicked out of the program" not "deported from the US".
Your ad here. Ask me how!
Disclaimer: I am not an american citizen or familiar with most of its laws. I am however an Immigration Officer in Canada.
I don't know about American citizenship, but I sure as hell know that what you described would never occur in Canada. Once you have attained citizenship, you CANNOT lose it unless you originally obtained it fraudulently. A naturalized Canadian citizen is no different from someone born here. How ridiculous would it be for someone born here to be deported? What you're probably refering to are laws pertaining to permanent residents (immigrants). I'm comparing Canada and the USA since we have somewhat similar immigration laws.
In any case, I think the GP meant "deported" from the camp. Ie, expelled and not allowed to continue blowing stuff up.
If you want, I'll piss in your cup.
Uhh...WOW.
Maybe not fictional, but very suspicious. Good catch.
You can renounce it. You can effectively renounce it by committing certain acts (see state.gov for specific details). So if you were judged to have committed an act of treason you could lose your citizenship.
I don't know how much of a hearing they could have had in 12 hours.
Links
When the months pass, and young American men who has done nothing wrong
Going into other people's countries and blowing their families to crispy bits is something wrong.
and indeed are willing to put their lives on the line for defending something they believe in, keep dying and dying and dying, and no progress is in sigth,
Iraq didn't attack us. None of our soldiers are standing up for or defending anything. They are tools of aggression used to deny liberty in the interests of profit. Those are not good people halfway across the world murdering innocents so Bush and Co can get richer off the backs of the American people.
Here is the only patriot in the whole fucking military. The rest are traitors acting against the interests of this nation.
If it was "deported" (="expelled from the camp") then it could've taken 12 minutes.
How do you deport someone in the program if one of the requirements is U.S. citizenship? Where do you deport them TO?
Cuba?
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
In the end, aside from what the social and political nutjobs (left and right) say, this is good for engineering and expanding the knowledge and curiosity of people. Really.
As an immigrant to the US, I've been hesitant in acquiring US citizenship because it is indeed 2nd class. During the first few years as a naturalized citizen, any felony can result in losing the acquired citizenship, which would leave me stateless. Felonies in the US can include things such as using your neighbors wifi, possessing 1oz of pot, and quite a few other ridiculous things depending on your locality.
She'll be the second female at UMR!
Just as a quick off-topic: unless you've either been diagnosed as a sociopath, or actually been in a situation to do someone a lot of harm and couldn't even think why you'd ever care about what they feel, you don't really know that. Maybe you are, maybe you aren't.
See, everyone is able to rationalize evil, whether as the logical course of action, or as the natural state and behaviour of the human species. Or both. That's why those 3% are accepted and even admired by many. They're the guys "tough enough to do what needs to be done", or similar excuses. It doesn't really make you one of them just because you can follow a logical argument, even one boiling down to "well, it's logical to kill someone to get their stuff if you need it". Everyone can follow such an argument, just because, well, we all have brains.
To actually be a sociopath, you'd need to not even understand why you'd care about that other guy, nor need to rationalize it to yourself in any form or shape. It's all about lack of a connection to the other humans, in a nutshell. It's sorta like being the only human, in a world of unimportant, dumb, expendable NPCs. They don't matter, their feelings don't matter, they're just there to be manipulated, deceived, hurt, even killed, if it keeps you entertained and you can get away with it. (I.e., you might still postpone it, if you suspect the other NPCs would show up with pitchforks and torches at your door.)
The test is, sorta, if push came to shove and you had to pull the trigger, if it still came as natural as "well, duh, it's what humans _do_" or you had to get past an "omfg, I can't do it" reflex, and if you could look yourself in the mirror the next day without going "omfg, what have I done."
We humans have a nasty side, yes, and can even kill each other naturally in a fit of rage. Getting us to commit premeditated murder, though, is a much harder proposition. Which is why we had to invent all those mechanisms to help get over that natural reflex.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
Good choice. From what I hear UMR has a very good ChemE program. AFAIK, a lot of the people working at Brewer Science (a company that makes specialized chemical products for the semiconductor industry) are UMR grads, being right there in Rolla and all.
...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
gangbang?
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Since when does non-US citizen equal "brown"?
Funny how you tried to make a point and displayed your racism as a result.
I have to say it sounds kinda odd that that could happen, because during the swearing-in ceremony the new citizens disclaim all rights to their country of origin, and supposedly the USA therefore does not recognize dual citizenship. I'd definitely prefer the Canadian way of doing it.
There is a pee test for terrorism? I *read about* ahem *cough* *cough* that high school kids in decades past figured this stuff out WITHOUT either the internet OR a formal class.
Well, this "terror cell" was, pathetic.
Even more pathetic are the so-called terrorism experts who are on the news, talking about this attack as if it were some sort of actual threat to the safety and security of Western Civilization.
But the WORST are the ones breathlessly claiming that this was an Al Qaeda attack.
The morning of 9/11, I *knew* it was Al Qaeda, because the attack bore all the hallmarks of the typical Al Qaeda attack; which were most publicly well-established in the Africa embassy bombings. The most distinguishing characteristic of a true Al Qaeda operation, was a very sophisticated coordination of multiple events. It was really kind of an ego thing for them; because the whole point of terrorism, was to inspire terror. And the ability to pull off such coordination meant that these guys were damn good at what they did.
That's why these Glasgow punters were not Al Qaeda. If they claimed to be, the real Al Qaeda could probably take them to court for trademark violation. They don't inspire terror. They inspire a chuckle. And perhaps a few more guards, and maybe an increase in insurance premiums at airports.
I know this, and I am not a "terrorism-expert". I just mildly pay attention once in a while.
What truly terrorizes me, is that the supposed "experts" don't apparently even do that anymore.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
To actually be a sociopath, you'd need to not even understand why you'd care about that other guy, nor need to rationalize it to yourself in any form or shape
Please note that my statement didn't say that I'm a sociopath. I was trying to say that I'm a bit closer to them than the average person. I know I'm not a true sociopath. You see, I understand why.
Yes, there are circumstances where I'd do my best to kill another human. In those circumstances, I'll pull the trigger. The only hesitation would be verifying my aim.
I think that it's a matter of I think that human society, as built, depends on trust. I like human society because it's nice. I don't have to break my back to get food on the table, there are cures to various diseases, etc... In return there's an element of trust, a social contract. I get really irritated at those unwilling to live by that contract as it disproportinately drags the rest of us(including me) down.
I don't read AC A human right
What's ironic, is that we (America) showed these people how to do exactly that (defeat a superpower), in the 1980's in Afghanistan.
Particularly in the Afghanistan situation, "public opinion" was possible to manipulate, in an oppressive communist country, where there was no free press: The Soviet Union. Against this weapon, the US occupation of Iraq does not stand a chance.
The ironic part is; US war-planners could have planned this war, (hell, they have known it was coming since 1992) - they could have easily predicted this response, and equipped their effort appropriately. Out of sheer stubbornness (or arrogance), they failed to do so. This time, it's not just a bunch of "dirty hippies" who oppose the war. Some fairly powerful monied interests are looking at what the financial burden of this effort will be, and they don't want to pay for it any more.
Military planners have to start thinking about how they're going to defend this country, without bleeding its economy dry. Yes - GDP has been doing okay in recent years. But have you looked at the value of the DOLLAR lately? That's what happens when you PRINT a couple hundred billion dollars a year - with no production to back it up.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
You forgot to mention where all the money for the madrassas comes from:
Americans gassing up their Hummers.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
I guess that they probably require US citizenship in order to be able to catch someone if they do something nasty. A person from another country can escape easier, but a US citizen is subject to the US legal system and is a foreigner in any other country, and is probably easier to track down by US authorities. However, in my opinion, this doesn't increase safety at all. A terrorist could possess fabricated documents or really have dual citizenship.
Nice...
Yeh, we've got 1 Christian a week running into shopping malls and restaurants blowing themselves up and 20-30 patrons. You're exactly right,... Christians are just like the Palestinians.
Idiot.
Are you really saying that teaching people to blow stuff up without doing a background check is a good idea?
Astonishing.
No weapon in the arsenals of the world is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men.-Ronald Reagan
...and it was called Cooperation North; we'd twin with "Norn Iron" nationalist troublespots (in our case, Andersonstown in West Belfast), go up there for a couple of weeks, learn how to make molotovs to throw at the Sasanach on the anniversary of the introduction of internment, on Easter Sunday, on Bloody Sunday, etc.
Such fun! But the chance of a live round being sent back our way convinced those of us from the Republic that throwing petrol bombs isn't something to do for entertainment in the long term.
What kind of background check are you going to run on USA citizen HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS? Maybe you should have a security clearance to learn to fly airplanes or rent a Ryder truck too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
Also, please stop misusing the term "sociopath". There is really no official diagnosis of "sociopathy" as it is generally regarded as a type of antisocial personality disorder.
How do you deport someone in the program if one of the requirements is U.S. citizenship? Where do you deport them TO?
Cuba?
No, Canada.
That's an outrage. I think all children should threaten to blow up buildings from the middle east. Think of the taxpayer dollars we'd save if we just send our kids over there with explosives and let them-- oh, wait a minute. We do do that. We just give them uniforms now.
I would be weary if the finals exam is to be held at the Gitmo testing center.
I'd go out on a limb and assume he meant "deport" as in "removed from the camp". Or would that be too logical?
Ah, yes, Milgram. I'm aware of it, and the objections to it are many. It could make a thread all by itself.
Let's just say, though, that:
1. That people can obey authority, isn't exactly new in and by itself. We have an army, don't we? Claiming that you can just turn people into an equivalent of Eichmann, though, is a whole other thing, and so much bullshit it could fertilize a few acres.
On one hand we have (A) people who were coaxed at every step, weren't face to face with the victim, in some versions were assured by 2 additional teachers that it's not dangerous, etc, and even so a lot were disoriented and even shocked after the experiment, vs (B) Eichmann who continued to send people to the concentration camps even after he was ordered not to. And knowing full well what happens there. I'm sorry, but other than as trolling, I can't see how anyone can put an equals sign between the two.
2. None of the participants were face to face with the victim, and essentially we don't know what they even thought or understood there. Did they really think "I'm killing someone" or maybe, "this has to be a joke?" I know I'd think the latter in such an incredible a setup. Being asked to administer someone unseen a 450 V shock, ranks up there with "press this button to have an invisible unicorn kick and invisible gnome."
The debriefing was superficial to the extreme, and even so, apart from a couple of people who claimed life-changing revelations, most seemed to not even have fully understood what they have done. The "omg, I had a revelation about myself" gang were actually extremely few, although quoted all over the place. The number of those who weren't even sure what the experiment did, if anything at all, outweighed them by far.
3. Even if you take his number at face value, obedience was by and large proportional to the number of figures of authority reassuring the subject that they're, not, in fact, doing anything dangerous. Even whether the experiment happened in an university (where you'd assume no mass killings would take place in broad daylight), or not, played a huge role and modified the percentage quite a bit.
When additional "professors" were involved, compliance varied between almost none, when the additional "professors" said it's dangerous to go any higher, to almost complete, when they said it's perfectly safe.
I don't know about you, but I can hardly put an equals sign between (A) someone doing something, even as bizarre as in the Milgram experiment, while reassured (directly or indirectly) by experts that it's safe, and (B) Eichmann and the like, who knew full well what they're doing. Unless you make an experiment that says, in a nutshell, "push this button to kill someone", I don't see how that equivalence can be argued in any form or shape. Here the reassurance from figures of authority was that you're _not_ actually doing anything dangerous. It's just not the same thing.
At most, what the Milgram experiment measures, is to what extent people would trust an expert against their common sense. But I suppose that wouldn't be as good for trolling for attention as, basically, "hey, looky, we can make people act like a famous (at the moment) war criminal". I mean, the former is just why you take medicine even if it makes you feel worse, while the later makes headlines.
4. Since that "it's not nearly as hard as you think" seems to be aimed at my claim that it's hard to turn a normal human into a premeditated murderer, I don't see anything suggesting premeditation in Milgram's experiment either. Even if you want to trust his conclusions to the letter, it's at best some people who were pressured to continue all the time, and at some point went with the flow because the authority figure next to them kept nagging them to continue. That's a freakin' huge difference between that, and, say, telling someone "the day after tomorrow you go and blow up a school." Most people gave up as soon as the authority figure wasn't in the same room (or wasn't perceived as enough of an authority figure, for that matter.)
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
And the site that post implicitly claimed as authoritative had a column that tracked picketing events in a table of "violence and harassment". So, claims from that site are dubious at best.
8 178434620 -- Interesting documentary. Don't worry, it doesn't try to disprove religion. It's a documentary by a Christian theologist who travels to different religious locations trying to find information about how the bible was written, and who all had a hand in it. Very interesting, and it's comfortable for anyone to watch no matter their religion.
Sounds like you were so quick to try and discredit that site that you didn't bother to read anything else on the page. Nowhere did it say picketing was a violent act. Just look at the table, read the other columns. Bombings, arson, murder, assault, death threats, bomb threats, etc. These are the violent acts. The number of arrests, number of picketing events, and number of blockades was to give more information as to the level of protest each of those years. I just don't understand why you would discredit something, without first figuring out what it is that you're trying to discredit. If there's more information out there, why would you want to keep it away instead of learning from it?
As far as there being more islamic acts of violence than christians in the US, you are comparing apples to oranges. People in that area are generally very religious. Their society is very religious. They believe they are fighting for their god, when they go down the street and blow up a building. There is a lot of tension in that small area, due to opposing religions who all believe that they are fighting for their god... When they grow up seeing each other blowing each other up for having different religious beliefs, they are more likely to accept that as being normal. On the other hand, here in America, Christians aren't being gunned down by Jews who are being car-bombed by Muslims. Fortunately, we are lucky not to have that kind of violence. People will go to much more extremes when defending what they truly believe is right. Especially if they fear it will destroy what they believe in. Firmly held beliefs tend to trump rational thought or compromise.
What scares me are these Christians who are looking at all of this violence in the Middle-East and getting the idea that we need to do something to the same effect. People are forgetting that this nation was founded so that we could be free to believe in whatever we wanted, and instead trying to turn this into a Christian state. While I agree that religion is very important for people individually, I will never agree that the state should push any one religion. You cannot have a free nation with independent thought, if everyone believes the same thing or gets their beliefs from the same source. You must have diversity, people trying different things, to move forward. How will we do anything new and unique, if everybody is doing the same thing? There are at least a few Christians out there who are using their religion to try and directly influence politics and the way people vote. Personally, I think it's wrong to take advantage of people by having their religious leaders to tell them to vote and for whom. Religion should not be used for controlling the masses. Those days are gone, or so I'd like to believe.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=206177304
If you're going to reach that far for straws, you might as well say your mother contributes so much to global warming because of all the CO2 she exhales.
No -- that's probably not what he meant. "Deported" in this context is pretty specific, particularly given that he seems to indicate that the kid who made the threat was from the Middle East.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
In late 2001 and the first half of 2002 a bunch of cavers worked to open a new entrance to Carroll Cave. Dr. Worsey provided the explosives expertise and training. He arranged for the donation of explosives and blasting caps. Most important, he and his students provided transportation of the explosives from the magazine to the dig site and back. Using nothing but volunteer labor, we blasted a hole 30 inches in diameter 120 feet straight down through limestone to get the new entrance. The new entrance is now the main way to get into Carroll Cave. Without Dr. Worsey's help we would never have got it done. While helping with the blasting I attended a week-long training session for work. At the beginning of the session everyone was asked to tell something interesting about themselves. I had just spent the weekend handling explosives, so I told the class that a bomb-sniffing dog would probably go positive on me. Naturally I had to explain and show pictures, with the consequence that we started 45 minutes late. The first time I worked the dig we were about 50 feet down. The blasting was still throwing debris out the top of the hole, so we parked all the cars several hundred feet away. From 50 feet down and 200 feet away the blasts were strong enough to set off car alarms. Standing at the bottom of a hole 30 inches in diameter and 100 feet deep with a bucket of dynamite hanging by your head makes one think very carefully about what you are doing. Dynamite is actually quite safe. You cannot set it off with fire, though you probably could set it off with a large firecracker. The really dangerous item is the electrical blasting cap. We kept those in a locked box away from the digging until the last possible minute. Only one person handled the electrical detonator while everyone else stood WAY back. The only serious injury we had during the whole project was a broken foot when one guy dropped a jackhammer with the point down. We had zero injuries from explosives. There were assorted cuts and bruises from working around sharp metal and an air compressor way beyond its prime. Carroll Cave has a web site with many pictures of the dig project. If you are really interested, Google on it. I don't think the server can handle a SlashDot effect, so I won't post the URL here.
Well, someone has to write it down..............
-William
God is everything science has yet to explain.
Me lost me cookie at the disco.
From Wikipedia... "commonly referred to as the Oklahoma City bomber, was convicted of eleven federal offenses and ultimately executed as a result of his role on the April 19, 1995, Oklahoma City bombing. The bombing, which claimed 168 lives, was the deadliest act of terrorism in American history until the September 11, 2001 attacks and remains the deadliest incident of domestic terrorism in the United States."
High school was a long time ago for me, so I don't think I'd fit in on this one. So where's the course for the 30 year olds who just want to blow stuff up and not go to jail for it? I'd love to 'play' with all sorts of different types of explosives. Why do the kids get to have all the fun?
- James
Joe the troll :-) Nice
Sure, your are perfectly possible. But again: there's no indication whatsoever that any of it, or anything similar, happened. Furthermore the "draw attention away" argument is, frankly, silly.
What do you think, will this act *reduce* or *increase* the scrutiny over other actions performed by this group over the last few months/years ? It's kinda a no-brainer to say "increase", no ? In other words, if they *had* done anything of the sort you hypothesize, this act would draw attention *to* it. not *away* from it.
Furthermore, several items are just dumb. I don't see how being dumb helps in any way. Carrying a mobile phone, registered on your own name, having it turned on constantly, while on the run from the anti-terror-police. Sound like a clever thing to you ?
I agree, it was a piss-poor effort. I just don't see any plausible reason to assume that it was anything MORE than that.
That's true, but you miss my point. Those of the US public who thinks going into Iraq was wrong *already* and from day *one* wanted the US troops back out of it. Convincing those ain't needed.
The tactic is aimed at convincing those of the US population that where *originally* convinced entering Iraq was the *rigth* thing to do that, infact, doing so is going to cost tons of young men (and a handful of women) their lives, and accomplish very little.
It appears to be working well too. Popular support for the Iraq operations have been declining steadily.
Hi, I'm all with you, and very much critical of US foreign policy. I was only deliberately avoiding provoking because on Slashdot it only arouses flamage and results in little worthwhile discussion.
Interestingly, when I post critical questions from my account with the not-obviously-foreign URL/email/name, most people tend to agree, or if not, atleast consider some of the critique fair. But posting anything *too* critical of US-policy from my obviously-norwegian account has, in the past, always resulted just in flames.
Seriously, you guys are on good way to losing two of the biggest advantages you used to have. First, your friends. Did you know that the general public in Norway (and many other countries in Europe) considers USA a larger danger to world-peace than Iraq, Iran and North-Korea combined ? (ain't commenting on whether you really are, only on the fact that people *think* you are.)
Secondly, your image as being "the good guys". Maintaining that requires playing fair -EVEN- towards those people who do not extend the same courtesy to you. Even a mass-murderer gets a fair trial and a good defence-attorney. The whole Gitmo (and similar) affair have -SERIOUSLY- weakened your image as "the uprigth defender of peace, justice and democracy"
Most people I speak to don't understand. *every* person under arrest is either a criminal, or a POW. There *are* no "third" category. Or *shouldn't* be in a country ruled by law anyway. And the way Gitmo is deliberatedly placed outside of US borders, on *Cuba* of all things. It's hard not to think that this is done in order to be able to treat the prisoners in ways that would receive more protests where it on US soil.
Your economy is, in general, doing OK. Though I'm happy that I'm underinvested in dollars (and have been for half a decade), your war-efforts are, as you say, very expensive. And your trade-deficit is, frankly, not long-term sustainable. You cannot over decades continue to import more than you export, without the end-result being that you are owned by foreigners. (much of the trade-deficit is balanced by foreigners investing in the USA. But unlike the products imported, the ownership of US companies is an *investment* the imported goods are mostly *consumed*)
Oh no its not. Its because this camp is organized by geeks :)
Miserably inadequate - yes, I think that sums up the bombers' efforts quite accurately. Whether that should arouse scornful pity or contempt is my point. 8 people fail to murder hundreds - my reaction is not 'That was a pathetic effort', but instead 'Thank goodness they had no idea what they were doing'. Perhaps we mean the same thing - it matters little.
Same one you run on anybody. High school students aren't little angels, you know.
No weapon in the arsenals of the world is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men.-Ronald Reagan
Well, honestly, we're just another in a long list of superpowers who've peaked, and are on the decline. Maybe it's a natural cycle, maybe it's preventable, who knows? Maybe in 20-40 years, we'll be a kinder, humbler power, or maybe there will be a different map.
Frankly; a lot of the policies on detention, torture, etc. have more to do with political manipulation than anything else. A lot of Americans watch too much TV; (perhaps that's a function of our prosperity, and as our standard of living continues to go away, so will mass media's influence?) - in the post-mortems of Nazi Germany, they had this concept called zeitgeist (literally "time mind", or a pervading political attitude). The majority of us are spoon-fed propaganda from a very few media outlets, they see a story of common criminals inflicting pain on others, and then "getting off on a technicality" - and the justice system, with it's rights and loopholes, is blamed. So anger is directed there. So when a leader steps forward, and does what this base of people want, he wins elections. Pure and simple - the actions of the Bush Administration was the result of pressure to pander to the redneck base. And once they got in power, they robbed the treasury blind. Through outright fraud, war profiteering, bribery, etc. I hate to see these criminals go free, but it looks like they have the power to escape justice. And what's left will be a former superpower, wondering what we were thinking, and where all our power and prosperity went.
I generally do think that Americans are really good people - and that our system of government, with all it's flaws, is great. We just took our eyes off the ball for a generation or two. I think we'll survive. We'll suffer. For a decade or longer. But we'll survive. And hopefully, we'll have learned from these mistakes.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Profits from petroleum sales, in the middle east, in particular, become very concentrated among the royal families of the UAE, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia. It's well-documented that certain members of these royal families funnel huge sums of money to madrassas. In fact, shortly after 9/11, a particular Saudi Prince with business ties to the Bush family, had made payments to one of the 9/11 hijackers. But don't let the facts get in the way of your god-given right to your lifestyle.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
"Would be terrorists were weeded out. Some child threatened to blow up a building from the Middle East and he was deported 12 hours later. I think they know a lot about safety."
I go to the University of Missouri - Rolla and I am an Electrical Engineering major, you seem to be missing a few facts.
The man was from India, not the Middle East, he had a breakdown because of getting (of all things) a C in his masters courses due to depression. He has not been deported and is in jail pending a trial.
We have a very multicultural faculty from all over the world who are truly interested in their students as compared to just getting research grants.
We aren't "politically correct" but we also welcome everyone with an open heart, studying engineering/math related courses for hours a day tends to weed our prejudices when you need tutoring or help from the Indian/Arab/Chinese/Pakistani etc.. student who barely speaks any english yet manages to get straight A's in all his courses.
UMR isn't politically correct, but it sure isn't a hillbilly university either, we have some of the smartest and brightest people i have ever had the oppurtunity to go to class with and study under, and they have come from everywhere on the planet. Everyone is welcome at UMR.
Everyone is happy that they failed. That's beyond debate.
But I want them to fail on a *larger* scale. Not just the individual terrorrists failing to acomplish their individual plans. True, I want that *too*, but it's not enough.
The larger goal of terrorists is to induce terror. To make people panic. To make people *scared*. Which they think will further their political/religious agenda.
I'm pointing out that I'm *not* scared. To the contrary, it appears to me that most of the so called terrorists are ridicolous clowns that couldn't bomb their way out of a paper-bag.
Yeah, thank goodness they can't. But also: If they think *this* is going to make us scared, they must be kidding.
The majority of us are spoon-fed propaganda from a very few media outlets, they see a story of common criminals inflicting pain on others, and then "getting off on a technicality" - and the justice system, with it's rights and loopholes, is blamed. So anger is directed there.
Your justice-system *is* infact getting ridicolous. What astonishes me is not that anger is directed there. But that not *enough* anger is directed there. I don't see why Americans stand for it. You guys used to mean it seriously when you said "justice for all". These days there's not much trace of a joke left when someone appends " who can afford it." to the above.
How long ago did SCO-vs-IBM start ? *what* is the rationale for making a system that makes it possible to completely stall for half a *decade* and not be told to "put-up-or-shut-up" ?
So when a leader steps forward, and does what this base of people want, he wins elections.
It is, unfortunately *much* worse than that.
Pure and simple - the actions of the Bush Administration was the result of pressure to pander to the redneck base. And once they got in power, they robbed the treasury blind. Through outright fraud, war profiteering, bribery, etc. I hate to see these criminals go free, but it looks like they have the power to escape justice.
Only aslong as the US public accepts it, which I'm completely flabberghasted at. Why ? How did you cultivate such a large base of so stupid (I don't mean to be inflamatory, as you can clearly see, I'm a great fan of the values that USA used to represent, which is why I'm so saddened to see them go!) people ?
I generally do think that Americans are really good people - and that our system of government, with all it's flaws, is great.
American people are just as good and just as bad as people elsewhere. Your system of government, however, is more than flawed. It is fundamentally broken, and getting more broken all the time.
We just took our eyes off the ball for a generation or two. I think we'll survive. We'll suffer. For a decade or longer. But we'll survive. And hopefully, we'll have learned from these mistakes.
You're only going to recover if you start taking seriously your own values again. Limits on power. Respect for human rights. Freedom. Liberty. Responsibility. Justice for all. ("enemy combatants" inclusive!)
I hope you're right. I don't *think* you're right in the short to medium perspective (5-15 years), but I'd be absolutely deligthed if you are !
Well, if you look at Germany, in the aftermath of WWII, (enforced partition and occupation, absolute devastation of major urban areas, etc.) and look at Germany today - they did recover. They're an intelligent and industrious people, and so it goes for the USA as well. Maybe you're right - maybe it *will* take more than 5-15 years. . . I tend to look at how the USA recovered after the devastation of the Great Depression, and use that as an example - though apparently, we've forgotten entirely, the lessons learned there.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
That's a different kind of devastation. USA ain't a country bombed to ruins. USA ain't a country with a large fraction of its industrial capacity blown to smitherens. USA ain't a country with a significant portion of the 20-40 year olds killed, injuried or otherwise traumatized. USA ain't a country under occupation.
So, the situation isn't comparable in any way shape or form. I'm not *talking* of economical decline, that would be silly, since USA is actually at an all-time-high for industrial production and financial riches. (You may be in a depression 2 or 5 years from now, but you aren't currently)
I'm talking about the erosion of *values* of *democracy* of *freedom* of *liberty* of *privacy*. It's not the same thing.
USA ain't a country bombed to ruins. USA ain't a country with a large fraction of its industrial capacity blown to smitherens. USA ain't a country with a significant portion of the 20-40 year olds killed, injuried or otherwise traumatized. USA ain't a country under occupation.
It's easy to imagine this being the case if the Bush/neoconservative policy agenda continues for another 5-10 years. Given our level of debt to China, our military unpreparedness, our precarious economic position (despite a fair GDP growth - other indicators are very troubling) - Germany got into its trouble prior to WWII, in part, because of the debt obligation incurred after WWI. Both Germany and Japan were trying to militarily grab oil resources to fuel their otherwise booming economies; Japan attacked the US in response to the US oil embargo. Germany attacked the UK in an attempt to secure North Sea oil reserves. The leadership of both of these countries was convinced they'd win, militarily, and had no idea they were going to get their asses handed to them. I'd say the US is in roughly that position now. Who is going to attack the US? If we attack Iran, there are other regional powers who will be very unhappy with the US making that oil grab. China. Russia. EU. Perhaps an alliance. It's clear that if we continue our present course, we're headed for disaster.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
That is not actually true. The leadership of Japan was never generally convinced that they could "win" a war against USA. Yamamoto, the chief commander of the Japanese navy, for example, had studied both at U.S Naval War College and at Harvard, and where personally opposing the attack on the U.S. atleast partly because he thougth that war unwinnable. After the attack he stated that he feared that all they had done was waking a sleeping giant and filling him with a terrible resolve. He was rigth. And he wasn't the only one in the Japanese leadership to think along such lines.
I'm still not seeing the connection to present day USA though. Yes your government is indebted. Yes part of the debt is held by foreigners. (most of it by private US citizens and corporations though) Yes this gives the same foreigners influence. (me for example ! each and every Norwegian owns US state-bonds and stock for aproximately $10.000, those who invested privately in addition owns more)
But get real. Your military isn't just the largest on the planet -- it is larger than the sum total of military spendings in ALL OTHER COUNTRIES COMBINED. This tends to be a shocking revelation to many Americans, but really, it is, and the fraction is growing by the minute.
You are planning to spend $533 billion on the military. The following places are: UK $66, France $60, Germany 57$, Japan $47. The world *TOTAL* spendings for 2007 are estimated to 1050 billion. So your spendings account for aproximately 51% of total spendings. Insane is a pretty weak word for it.
A concrete comparison ? USA spend $533 billion and has aprox 300 million inhabitants. So spendings are at $1800/inhabitant, or if you prefer, about 4.5% of GDP. Norway spends $4 billion and is about 4.6 million, so about $870/inhabitant. But we're also somewhat richer, so about 1.7% of GDP.
It may be as "unprepared" as you want (though I question if any other country has a military that much more "prepared" for an invasion), but USA being invaded military is currently just flat out impossible. Sure, you can suffer the occasional lost *battle*, but you sure as hell won't lose a *war* on your own soil. (not in the short to medium term anyway, if you're talking 20 years plus, then anything is *possible*, allthough not very *likely*)