Slashdot Mirror
Why Buy a PC Preloaded With Linux?
Shadow7789 writes "I have been in the market for a new computer for the past few weeks and I know that I want to run Linux on it. However, every time I look at (for example) Dell's computers that are preloaded with Linux, the question pops into my head: 'Why should I buy a PC preloaded with Linux?' They are more expensive, and it's not hard just to reformat the PC with Linux. I hate paying the Microsoft Tax as much as anybody else, but if paying that 'tax' allows companies to reduce my price by bundling with my PC products that I will never use, why wouldn't I just buy a Windows-loaded PC and reformat?"
If it's got Linux installed on it, you know that the hardware it's got is supported by Linux. Nothing worse than buying a new computer and finding out it's got some chipset or other that Linux doesn't work with yet.
So.. it has come to this
Everything you say is correct from a cost/hardware standpoint. If you wich to vote with your dollars against crapware bundling, you will need to overlook that.
So that companies realise that people want Linux, which will encourage them to start making drivers/software compatible. If people buy, then add Linux, companies just assume no one wants Linux. However, if you read the Windows EULA, you can get a full refund from the retailer for the copy of Windows, so that proves a point, and saves you a lot of money.
I'm a die-hard Linux geek as well, and all for preloaded Linux (especially if it solves driver issues!), but if a computer is cheaper with Windows, why not buy the cheaper computer and get a refund for not accepting the EULA? You then save money on both fronts, and get your Linux computer.
At the end of the day, I always decide that the hassle isn't worth it and that I'd also rather send the message to the company that there is a market for selling computers preloaded with Linux.
Just my $0.02.
I was looking at new Thinkpads through Lenovo, and a T60/T61 with Linux pre-installed actually costs less than the same system with Windows XP or Windows Vista.
I haven't looked at their desktops, so I don't know if the same applies there.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
And if you don't, you don't buy it?
I realize this was just a "devil's advocate" type of question in the first place (alright it's a troll, but at least it's better than fucking Idle posts on the front page). Still, I have trouble believing that you couldn't come up with an answer on your own to such a stupid question.
I would assume that a pre-installed Linux is already configured and all drivers are there and working.
I still have problems getting all devices of my 3-years-old Dell pc to work with current Ubuntu versions. My hope would be that if I buy a desktop pc with pre-installed Linux, all the hardware is at least supported by Linux, and I don't need to do the "hard" parts of the configuration (like the WLAN stuff).
If you buy a machine with a preinstalled OS, it's the vendor's reponsibility to ensure that it's compatible, and all the relevant drivers exist and perform reasonably well. If you roll your own, then you take that responsibility.
If you consider the ability to say 'hey, this doesn't work, I want my money back' without the reply being 'works for us, you messed up the install, your problem' to have a monetary value, then it's probably worth paying for the 'free' software.
A pizza of radius z and thickness a has a volume of pi z z a
Isn't preloading one the mantras the Linux community has been chanting in their "this is the year of Linux"?
If you stand on principle, you may cost Microsoft a few bucks, but in the process you will end up costing yourself a few bucks too. It's hardly worth it since it's really a drop in the bucket for MS whereas it's probably a real cost to you.
Look at it this way, every voice probably counts for something, but in the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter all that much what you as an individual do, so why go out on a limb and do something that is going to directly harm yourself?
So pay the Microsoft tax and save a few bucks. Whatever money MS gets will go into coming out with a better competitor to Linux, and that perpetuates the good positive feedback cycle that competition is supposed to spur.
look at Novatech they have all their headline prices without operating system. You can specify various flavours of windows as an optional extra. In fact look at this one
No Operating System Installed £249.99 inc vat
Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition £299.99 inc vat
Microsoft Windows Vista Home Basic £329.00 inc vat
Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium £339.00 inc vat
Microsoft Windows Vista Business £349.00 inc vat
Microsoft Windows XP Professional £359.00 inc vat
Who told you things would be cheaper with knowledge than without it? Same goes for free software I guess, or the world in Matrix.
And that's the ideal case where there are no problems whatsoever after installing the OS. During my last attempts to install Ubuntu, I had to manually mess with the video driver settings (and that was for an ancient Ati Rage Mobility 3 chipset, nothing newfangled, which ran just fine with the previous version of Ubuntu).
Well, first of all, the price difference isn't really all that much. In fact, unless you are buying in bulk and getting an Enterprise discount, the cost difference is less than $50.00 (in the case of Dell, anyway).
Secondly, if you WANT Linux and FOSS software to succeed in the desktop realm, supporting companies that are willing to go out on a limb and sell Linux on Desktops and Laptops is necessary. If there isn't any profit in it for them, they won't support FOSS. Simple as that.
Thirdly, Why would you WANT to pay the "Microsoft Tax", or have to deal with fighting with a machine who's hardware might only be partially supported under Linux. Vs. a machine with NO "Microsoft Tax" AND will have all hardware fully supported in Linux? Why make things harder on yourself?
Unless there is a specific piece of hardware that you need or want that is in a Windows box and not a Linux box, I really don't see the need to buy Windows when you want Linux if there are Linux machines available. Especially when the Linux machines are comparable in specs to the Windows ones, excepting the really high-end gaming rigs (Of course, if you want a high-end gaming rig, why wouldn't you just build it yourself from hardware you know is Linux supported?)
Official Heretic from the "Church of Global Warming". Proven right thanks to whistle blowers. AGW = Flat Earth Theory
You told us the answer already. Why bother us with the question then?
-- Cheers!
I can see several benefits of buying a Linux-installed desktop.
- for one thing, one can pray that the manufacturer has done everything to maximize compatibility. Sure, you can do it yourself, but for an average user, it really makes sense.
- support. Support is needed, when you're stuck and dont know what to do (or what questions to ask in the forums!). Having professional support is always a plus.
- you can't resell your Windows liscence anyways (read the small print). So why just trash it?
- giving the industry a sign. Ok, that one is a bit too theoretical, but anyways. A company producing a nice linux-powered PC that sells will continue to do that. Develop drivers, boots support, invest time and money. It will be an indicator that it isnt ony possible, but profitable... maybe others will then follow!
http://www.automatiq.se
Need I say more?
It's not that much more difficult to build a computer on your own. You get to pick the parts which means you can build Linux compatibility. You don't have to pay for Windows. It's really that simple.
Even if buying a computer bundled with a Microsoft license does not cost you more, it means that some money goes to Microsoft corporation. The question is, are you ok with that? If you'd rather not support what Microsoft is doing, it might be a good solution to offset the effect of that financial support for Microsoft by making a donation to one of the various organizations that work towards achieving a more reasonable future in the field of IT.
Then return windows. Tell them you do not agree with the licence and ask for a refund.
Sorted
http://davesboat.blogspot.com/
If the cheapest PC you can buy has Windows pre-loaded, then buy it, reject the EULA (document the proces - maybe take photos - since you can expect a hassle) and claim a Windows refund from the vendor, then install Linux. Or, if like most people you still have occasional use for Windows, then accept the EULA and create a dual boot system.
Returning windows does so many good things: increases the cost of selling Windows. Reduces the cost of buying a machine for Linux. Ensures MS don't get their MSTax, exercises the consumer laws, teaches companies to accept returns. (in the long run; the company probably makes a fixed cost deal with MS in any case and probably doesn't dare claim back, but they get a stronger negociating position next time round if many people do this).
Probably even better (I'm not sure though) is buying from a supplier like penguin computing which doesn't stock Windows in the first place. When you give extra money to Dell, you are giving to a company which does a great deal to support Windows development. When you give to Penguin, you can be pretty sure you aren't contributing.
You finally got dell too cave in and offer Linux on there systems. Now you want this? Make up your damned minds!
I think the choice between the two only applies to people that want a working system out-of-the-box. The rest of us just build from parts anyway. And surely, even with Ubuntu, there are still a couple of problem with hardware and multimedia playback on a clean install, hence a little extra effort. Besides, Dell had a large Windows help desk knowledge base. The probably don't want to have to support two OS'es
I bought a Ubuntu Dell because it's very convenient. It's been a long long time since I thought installing an OS was a fun use of my time; and it was kinda nice to have it working out-of-the-box.
And it doesn't always cost more.
Dell pricing is very funny.
Sometime the Linux models cost more, sometimes less.
Sometimes the Dell Small Business models cost more than Dell Home, sometimes less.
In my case a dell coupon code that they didn't mention would work on the Ubuntu model happened to work, so it was actually the exact same price as the windows model that day.
Reread Milton Friedman's _Free to Choose_. When you buy it, you're communicating with the market, saying "I want a computer with Linux." When you buy a computer with Windows preinstalled so you can wipe it and install Linux, you're fibbing to the market--it will interpret that as "I want a computer with Windows", and be more likely to do that and ultimately to stop selling computers with Linux preinstalled. And for that matter, they aren't going to press hardware makers for Linux-friendly hardware, either--why should they?
You may be able to install Linux on such a computer, but the proverbial Joe Sixpack or grandmother can't, or will be afraid to, or won't want to bother. If you lie to the market, you're making it less likely that _they_ will have the option to buy a computer with Linux preinstalled.
(And yes, I've put my money where my mouth is; I'm waiting for the Dell laptop with Linux preinstalled to arrive.)
If you do get a computer with windows bundled, then just return the windows part for a full refund. You are entitled to it. It will make it easier for you if you can get the price itemized (or else they'll claim that windows cost them $1). But you are well within your rights to get a refund.
This is probably obvious to most people, but any x86 server is good out of the box today running Linux. Same for the vast majority of desktops. Slightly less so for Laptops, but I haven't tried many that don't work. It is the "secret" contracts with MS and the spam-like crapware that cause most of the headaches. We should be able to buy virgin systems, like businesses and put on any OS we like. The hardware manufacturers would love to support only the hardware, but they are forced to support Windows and squeeze their margins. Companies like Lenovo and Dell sell their hardware with Linux because they don't have to support the OS. Of course the Lenovo T61 I just bought was $97 dollars cheaper with the Suse option than with the Vista.
Reason TO buy a PC with Linux preloaded:
It will work. I've been trying to migrate to a Linux dual boot system for months now, but between problems with my wireless card and every flavor of Linux's refusal to recognize my nVidia raid controller, I've given up and am forced to be content with windows. I tried quite hard, but since the only "support" Linux has are worthless IRC chat rooms and forums and hoping to God someone else has had the same problem as you, getting anything done is like pulling teeth. Having a support number you can call would be fantastic. Pre-loaded PCs provide that.
Reason not to:
Buy a cheaper computer with Windows, then notify Dell (or whomever) that you refuse the liscence agreement. They are required to refund the value of the software to you.
A few years back, I bought an IBM server and I was willing to pay for the effort and testing that IBM had performed in order to guarantee its compatibility with Linux and other popular server operating systems. I was very impressed with the level of support that IBM provided. None of the usual "It shipped with Windows Blech, install anything else and you are on your own".
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Just build it -- It will only take a couple hours at most and almost always save you money.
It seems quite obvious to me. I can't stand the thought of a MS tax. (Though its unavoidable as most hardware -- even drives, memory-sticks -- everything has a NDIS CD you don't need!) Build your PC -- Its very simple to do and you have total control of your hardware. In the case of a laptop, you might have to have it "special ordered", which could be a wait. No OS is a legal right in Europe and the only way I'd accept a new laptop.
Finally if you buy a 'server', chances are there will be no OS pre-installed, but like the laptop, you must accept what you get and be sure there are expansion slots and ideally no Realshit audio and other bundled "crape-ware" from the hardware makers.
Windows 95 had a great theme song.
Maybe Linux could benefit by having a catchy theme song too.
I don't know why I would buy one with Linux on it. I can install the distro myself, and I don't think the distro I use (Archlinux) is likely to be preinstalled on a commercial PC, usually those are distros like Ubuntu or other big names getting preinstalled. And even if it were Archlinux being preinstalled, how can they know which packages I want on it? So if there was a preinstalled Linux on it, I'd probably replace it anyway... Also, I bought my last PC without any OS at all, I just bought all the parts of it separatly. So that is certainly an option.
First, is the visibility. Companies do not have any idea how many people want Linux (or do not want M$, depending on your view point). Purchasing pre-loaded fixes the books so that companies have no doubt.
Second is, as someone else mentioned, you know that all of your components work with Linux. Most of us have had issues, where M$ only devices reside on a purchased PC. In that case, generally the products have no vendor support for Linux, and driver/software products capable of using them rely on the time consuming task of reverse engineering.
Remember too that companies like Dell have to pay more for Linux support (Gigabazillions paid top dollar for that M$ cert.. as opposed to the handful that earned their RHCx)
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
Hah! You buy Windows machine to get it cheaper. M$ gets a licensing fee from OEM. You never use Windows, but what does M$ care, if they get paid? Norton, M$, AOL, etc pay OEM to put crapware on PC. You install Linux distro of your choice, for free. Everybody wins.
If you buy something preloaded with Linux, the companies involved know that they just sold one more unit on account of Linux. If enough computers are sold in this way, compatibility with Linux will have much more value to them, and the hardware they buy will reflect this. This, in turn, will encourage more hardware vendors to be compatible with Linux.
The question you want to ask yourself is whether the extra money paid is worth the chance to help bring this about. How much is the future prospect of better Linux compatibility worth to you? Is there something more valuable you can and want to do with whatever money you might save?
Last time I checked, Dell with linux costed 50+$ less, not more, than with Windows!
If you are thinking only in the short run, ie today you could just as well buy and rip Windows.
If you on the other hand care about competition, drivers, compability and Linux you should take on another approach.
Computers with Linux are cheaper to sell, the problem is that OEMs pay for Windows regardless if they ship Linux or windows. It has nothing to do with bundled products. If vendors find that Linux is a business opportunity they will tell Microsoft to stuff it. When you buy a computer with windows and replace it with Linux you are saying "I dont want Linux" to those OEM's.
Award thos who give you what you want and punish the ones who dont. There are things besides money that counts.
HTTP/1.1 400
* Spread lies about Linux
* Register idiotic patents and then bully smaller companies
* Force hardware vendors to drop Linux support
* Sponsor open source projects and then shut them down
Perhaps in your country they don't do this, but where I live there are lots of stores that assemble your PC with the specs you give, and no OS preinstalled. My PC costed me around 600 dollars.
I am buying an eee PC 900 preloaded with Linux because it has a bigger SSD drive. I intend to reformat Linux off it and install an MSDN subscription XP when I get it. I realize I will probably have to "n-Lite" XP first to reduce its size further to get it to fit the 4GB primary drive.
Based on the assumption that the crapware makers pay for having their stuff bundled, in the hope of selling subscriptions (or whatever) to inexperienced users:
:-)
By all means, buy the Windows computer and reformat to Linux. You will end up doing Microsoft a favor, but the crapware vendor has wasted his advertising money. I dislike this guys as much as Microsoft, and would settle for damaging them instead of MS.
Now if lots of people do this, I predict two consequences:
1) Crapware bundling will no longer be an attractive business model. Maybe some crapware vendors go out of business
2) The license costs of Windows are no longer compensated by crapware advertising money. At that point, computers bundled with Windows should actually become more expensive than the Linux versions.
C - the footgun of programming languages
silly gits, not every one know how to install linux or windows. this will allow them to get a linux if they prefere
There are many places who will supply a PC with NO O/S Installed. This is how I buy my systems. Then I can choose what Linux Distro I want to install and not have to use for example ubuntu as supplied by Dell on some of their models.
Other replies here have said 'build your own' It might be better for you to start with what is called a Barebones system and add the bits you want.
I have build many systems this way for people who do in the main run XP.
Do a bit of shopping around and you may be pleasantly surprised at what you find.
It is far better than what I overheard a few months ago by a major retailer in the UK that it was illegal to sell a PC without Windows installed.
I interrupted the sales assistant and said "So you are illegally selling all those Mac's I see on display behind you unless they come with a copy of windows as well as OS/X?"
They had no answer to that. I directed the potential customer to one of the places ( a few miles down the road) who sell PC's with no O/S installed.
Some companies actually offer Linux drivers for hardware. If you are willing to do the research, you could build yourself a sweet system knowing it will be fully compatible with Linux.
Linux may currently be a lower volume option and victim of fuzzy deals. But presumably over time if support is demonstrated, the linux prices will fall.
obviously
That's how we use them. Our cad software runs on Linux, so we buy workstation that we plug into our network, and we're ready to play. All we need to do is set the network setting, NIS, and a few security setting and we're ready. Just like the old days when we had Solaris work stations.
A decent Thinkpad with SLES tends to be $100 cheaper than a Thinkpad with M$ Vista. This has led to the "We're going to see which of your existing video games can run under WINE, and what existing video games for Linux are sufficiently entertaining for you," discussion with the wife and kids.
This option also usually ends up being cheaper in the long run as well. I spent $1600 on my latest computer that would have cost me over $2000 to get from Dell at the time. In fact, a similarly speced computer from Dell still cost $1400 nearly two years later, although it does have a better CPU and GPU.
"I hate paying the Microsoft Tax as much as anybody else..." If you feel that way, we all need to urge our representatives to disallow the bundling of Microsoft software to hardware- it is something they should not be permitted to do since they do not make hardware (among other things). How would you feel if Exxon got a piece of every car sold because it might use their gas?
I bought a Dell Ubuntu laptop, which I decided to wipe clean and try a fresh Linux install with the standard image that I downloaded.
No dice. Dell shipped that with a custom install of Ubuntu that included the special drivers I needed that weren't part of the standard install. I ended up using their custom image to restore my pc, which worked perfectly. I can't imagine how long it would have taken me to get everything working otherwise. If you're going to use Linux anyway, I say it's better to get the peace of mind, for the small price difference there may be at any particular point.
And I fully agree with what others have said. Give these companies the incentive they need to get support for Linux hardware.
"I hate paying the Microsoft Tax as much as anybody else, but if paying that 'tax' allows companies to reduce my price by bundling with my PC products that I will never use, why wouldn't I just buy a Windows-loaded PC and reformat?"
.. :)
So as you can then get the refund of US$109.162 by clicking "no" on the Windows licence agreement
It is odd that a Linux box costs more then a Windows box considering what Dell is paying for Linux. And considering with Linux you get a fully functioning Desktop, Office suite, multimedia etc as compared to a time limited reduced functionality Windows desktop.
Does Dell still have to pay the Microsoft tax regardless of how many Windows boxes it sells?
davecb5620@gmail.com
I ask you... Why would someone people sponsor a child in Africa? Why would someone donate to disaster relief? Its not giving THEM any benefit.
Perhaps sometimes its the principle that counts.
...or it could just the self-indulgent pleasure of the economics of philanthropy.
You get OS X (which I call "Linux that works") and can run Windows as well if you like. I spent over a decade wasting time with Linux and never did any actual work with it till I bought a Mac.
Yeah, and get free windows for games! Yay!
If it actually costs you less to buy a machine with Windows in it, why aren't you complaining about the "Linux tax" instead? We should all be so lucky to pay a "tax" that puts money back in our pockets instead of taking it away.
Principles and "sending a message" are all very fine sentiments, but I'd take the MS box, then send a message by getting the O/S rebate.
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
What's with pasteurized milk, I can boil it myself, thank you. (And cheaper, too.) Pre-dyed clothing??? I don't need to be spoon-fed my attire -- there's a reason for that bucket in the corner. Why buy peanut butter when a hammer will be good for a lifetime's worth of it, at a fraction of the cost? Bound books??? I can print 350 pages for less than $2. I could go on, and on, but actually I have to go grind some flour for dinner, which is only four hours away here.
I recently (~4 weeks ago) bought two Dells with Ubuntu on them. I didn't get all the software I wanted, but that was cuz Dell is so grudgingly offering Linux.
I've been a programmer since the 1970's. I write or have written code in many of the languages and environments you've ever heard of, and probably quite a few you haven't. I designed and built or upgraded my own home desktops on several occassions. But I've never been a desktop support person or sysadmin. I don't much care for 'tinkering' with configuration crap or rebuilding other people's code. Although I've been in and out of Unix systems since the early 1980's, I've only limited experience with Linux itself. I wanted a quick 'leg up' on the task, and using Knoppix convinced me that I could easily waste a few weeks researching and gathering hardware, drivers, etc, that work together and with Linux.
One box I bought for my kid, and will be loading it up with games, internet stuff, etc. (Yes, I'm a good dad - I watch his online activities)
The other box is for me, for access, for hobby programming, etc. I bought the preloaded boxen for the convienence, not for the 'experience' of building a Linux system, which quite frankly, is valueless to me.
Pavlov wouldn't be so famous if he'd used a can opener instead of a bell.
PS: If you're gonna reformat anyway, just buy the HARDWARE you want and not a prebuilt system at all. I wouldn't buy MS even to delete it, just cuz I wouldn't give them the satisfaction of getting a few of my $$$ for nothing.
Pavlov wouldn't be so famous if he'd used a can opener instead of a bell.
M$ negotiates its Windoze prices per machines sold,
not per copies of Windoze sold. If a vendor sells computers without an OS, or with Linux installed, they still have to pay the M$ tax.
Why buy a PC pre-loaded with Linux? Because while some of us can install Linux while half-asleep and get every driver to work without a moment's thought. Like say, you, me, and 80% of the Slashdot readership, most people can't.
Mind you, most people can't install any operating system, but that's another matter.
Besides, when you buy a system with Windows pre-installed, you're giving money to Microsoft and letting them continue to say that Windows is #1." Of course, if you want to help Microsoft keep up its desktop dictatorship, by all means buy Microsoft.
Steven
First Dell quality has really gone down. Worse, their price for their systems is more upper-end priced, not lower-end. So shop around. Oddly, you can find systems that do Linux cheaper than the dell and have higher quality. Then call AND send Dell an email and let them know what you bought and why.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
I bought a Windows notebook and promptly reformatted the hard drive and put Linux on it.
I wanted a laptop that I could return easily if there were problems, so I wanted to get it from a store. I selected one with an AMD64 processor and Nvidia chip.
When I selected the model the sales guy asked do I require any Anti Virus/Anti Spyware software. I said it was going to be running Linux so it won't have any of those issues. Which was quite satisfying, and also I hope. Not just getting a laptop but educating the sales staff (with my purchase) that there is an alternative to Windows that doesn't have those problems and still works on their laptops.
Sure MS got their $30 or so but that's it, no upgrades or even activation confirmation (didn't get that far) which in the end means another less Windows installation - also, very importantly, another example in the wild that Windows can be dumped and Linux installed and work well on just about any computer.
My other private entertainment was peeling off all the stickers and pasting my own stickers, one from Ubuntu, and the others printed from the books at http://www.openstickers.com/
"Enjoy what you're doing! If it becomes drudgery, you're doing it wrong!" - Jim Butterfield
Your purchase will be on the radar of manufacturers. Not just the one that sells you the PC, but also the ones that make the graphics, wifi, and other peripherals. That means hardware and driver support because they know it's really in their financial best interest to do so.
I think what a lot of people forget, is that yes, you can save money by buying a Windows PC, and then formatting it, or returning it via your EULA rights. However, this does nothing for proving the increase of Linux users. You need to remember, that popularity is driven by numbers. Software companies that don't develop for Linux do so because they don't see a substantial market of Linux users. Because there is no hard proven facts or figures that the amount of Linux users that are out there really exist. These numbers are proven and shown in sales numbers. How much of a particular product did a particular company sell? And it doesn't matter if any of them were returned. The numbers never show that, or if they do, they are in such a small proportion to the sales numbers, nobody really gives return rates a second look. For example, when Microsoft released the Xbox 360, and 1 million of them were sold on the first day, that's the number that Microsoft released. Even if 100,000 were returned on the following day, it doesn't matter. Microsoft sold 1 million 360's on it's first day on the market and that's what everybody knows or cares about. I just used this as an example, as I don't really know the sales figures for the 360's first day. The point is numbers. The same thing goes for Windows. Even if you go through the hassle of actually returning the Windows license back to Microsoft, you still purchased it first. That is a sale number that Microsoft can and will use when Steve Ballmer goes to an interview and says, "We sold 900,000 Windows licenses in the month of March". I personally would pay the extra money for the computer that has Linux pre-installed to avoid giving a sales number to Microsoft. I would probably still format since I am a Slackware user, but I would prefer to give my sale number to Linux instead of Microsoft. Just my two cents.
Screw You.
I am working on a windows box with no spell checking on it. Combined with my Dislexeia, and the fact this is slashdot not a freaking report paper. I would say Deal with it. You got the point I don't care if it is spelled incorrectly.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
You want to know a good reason to get a Linux preload? Trying to get Ubuntu to work with a Latitude D830 a few months ago was no fun.
Most of this is from memory, as I won't work there any more, and I'm mostly an OS X user, because I hate wasting my time with things that are broken out of the box.
First was even getting Ubuntu to boot. The current Ubuntu at the time needed to have "all_generic_ide" manually added to the boot parameters to get the Live Install CD to boot at all, or it would drop to a shell prompt with a cryptic error message, because it couldn't see anything on the IDE bus, and it couldn't read anything from the CD that wasn't part of the kernel/ramdisk image.
Next was getting the wireless drivers to work. It uses a Broadcom chipset which doesn't have Linux drivers (or at least not without a lot of work googling and downloading and compiling and configuring unfinished drivers), and when using ndiswrapper with the drivers from the Dell CD, I wasn't able (IIRC) to get it to stick to a particular SSID or enter a WEP key using the Ubuntu GUI setup, and I don't remember having much more success with the command line. Also, changing the network configuration sometimes didn't always change the network address, and while that may have been an Ubuntu bug,laptop didn't ship with Linux, so there was no support beyond pin-the-tail-on-the-user-support-board.
And then there was the trackpad. Goddamn piece of crap trackpad. I'm sure it worked wonderfully under Windows, but Ubuntu's default install set it up in a hyper-sensitive mode, where the cursor whizzed across the screen, and more than the lightest touch was taken as a mouse click. Try to click on something on the menu bar at the top of the screen, and you're likely to launch Firefox as you pass by its tiny little icon. It took me days to come up with an xorg.conf that moved at a decent speed, and turned touch-click completely OFF. (And the way that USB devices get set up for X-Windows under Linux, sequentially numbered in the order they were found, makes configuring trackpads potentially unreliable anyhow. Oops, this time I had a mouse plugged in during boot, so now my trackpad has a different event source number!)
And that's why you should want Linux pre-loaded. Drivers and configuration.
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
I am sick and tired of everyone approaching life as if our only job is to buy the cheapest thing.
There are things that cost us money and are not a good monetary value, but which may or may not pay back over time.
Fighting for your rights takes your time, and as we all know, time is money.
Some people say "its only an OS, who cares." Well, *all* the things we are getting outraged about these days are from corporations who make far too much money from people who don't give a damn.
*We* have to give a damn.
'cause I can.
Cuz it's the fun?
Enlightenment is the elimination of that which is unnecessary.
Most of the discussion on pre-installed systems here seems to be relative to Dell,... last I saw both Lenovo and HP were also providing Linux desktop (Ubuntu) systems.
,br> For even more savings _and_ send the Linux message at the same time.. look for the Eee laptop pc... a second slashdot article today shows Asus is releasing a desktop version too.
And if you're really into saving... find someone who is upgrading from XP to Vista and can't use their old computer any more "too slow!" - or go to Ebay. Reformat the hard drive with Ubuntu.com 8.04 and you're on your way. This way you'll save the environment from making a new machine (one statistic is 2 tons of raw materials are needed to make a new pc...not including the energy to transform it from materials into something).
I use a P4-2.4Ghz for email, surfing, office documents for my consulting business (running Kubuntu). I run a refurbished P4-3Ghz machine for Finite Element Analysis (on PCLinuxOS) - heavy number crunching. There's a 1.7Ghz machine running Xubuntu with a better graphics card to play FPS's. All machines were rescued from neighbors replacing/upgrading their windows machines. The only purchases were that I ebay'd a faster processor and additional RAM for the 3Ghz machine.
Never buy a hp pavilion laptop if you're planning to run linux on it. Biggest headache ever.
If you have to ask, Linux is not for you. The same way is you have ever wonder: Who are these people they are referring too? You are one of them.
- these are not the droids you are looking for -
Actually, it was thirty silver, and I think it was just because he was dumb.
I mean, come on, Jesus had to count as at least rare, if not epic. He definitely would have been worth more than thirty silver at the auction house. But nah, Judas just had to vendor him.
I bet he hanged himself when someone told him, "dude, you could have auctioned him for at least 350 gold, according to Thottbot." I mean, I know newbies who went depressive for having vendored Coarse Stone when you tell them they could have gotten gold for it. Vendoring Jesus? Damn, I'd probably hang myself too the next day.
Well, unless Jesus was already soulbound and couldn't be auctioned.
(Big WoW related joke, for whoever doesn't understand what I'm going on about.)
Alternately, think of it this was: Jesus is the healer and resser of that raid, and he goes and aggroes both the Romans and the Jewish leadership in one fell swoop. And he gets nailed for it. I mean, damn, didn't they have a _tank_? Did noone there know how to pull?
And what kind of a raid size was that? I can see 25 or 40 as a raid size, I could even imagine a 15 man instance, but thirteen? Gimme a break. You don't go after elite bosses like Pillat Pontius with just thirteen people, no matter how l33t your healer thinks he is.
Judas probably hanged himself after trying to get another healer and a proper defense tank for the next attempt at that instance, and having no success for the rest of the day.
I know some groups like that and days like that almost made _me_ want to hang myself
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
WI-FI on linux still sucks for the most part, because WIFI card makers still very close-source minded. Frequently, you have to be "smarter than the average bear" to get it working. i.e. Suppose you have to use ndiswrapper. You generally have to have your wired connection before you can get your wireless connection working.
Last January, I decided to treat myself to a new laptop from HP. I called them and asked if they sold a model without an installed operating system (which I knew they didn't...I just wanted to be certain).
I ordered a DV6000 with the smallest available drive (80GB I believe) and looked up the specs on the drive on their web site. At the same time I ordered the system, I ordered a larger-capacity version of the same drive from an online vendor.
When the laptop arrived, I didn't fire it up immediately. I carefully removed the original drive, bagged it and installed my new blank drive. I then installed Kubuntu 7.10 (Gutsy), which was still in pre-RC beta status at the time.
The HP and Kubuntu worked perfectly together out of the box, and I never looked back. (The hardware in this model was all Intel, I should mention, including video and wireless). I've since tried other distros on the multiple partitions I originally set up, and there isn't a byte of Windows code on the machine. Anywhere.
Some might see the expense of an additional drive as silly, but there was a purpose to my madness. I knew going in that if I had any operational, warranty-covered issues with this laptop, the folks at support hell would ask me, before anything else, to boot the unit into Windows to do some useless diagnostic checks. It would be far easier for me to remove the Linux drive, pop the Windows drive back in, and go through those machinations, rather then have them tell me they couldn't help because I wasn't running Windows.
The second drive cost me $80. When the time comes to sell or give this laptop away, I'll pull my Linux drive and pass it along with a brand new, unused Windows drive (XP, not Vista) and all the restore stuff ready to go.
Joe Dougherty, Florida, USA
The words I thought I brought, I left behind. So, never mind.
Depends.. Are you talking desktop, or laptop? If you're talking a desktop, I'd say build it yourself, put the right hardware in it, and enjoy. A laptop is a bit harder. Buy one preinstalled. I recently went through and searched the various vendors that sell linux-based laptops. I've had dells before that I've put linux on, and 1 HP. They all worked to an extent, but getting wireless to work on them was a pain. I couldn't game well on either one due to the video cards either. After a lot of searching, I found a company that offered the features I wanted, and a decent price. All told, it was worth the time, effort, and money to get the hardware I wanted. http://www.system76.com/ is where I finally bought mine. Serval performance, and I couldn't be happier. They provide online support via the ubuntu forums, and between them and the community there I have had no problems.
From what I've heard (so take this with a grain of salt), people have problems with "big box" PC support if they've changed the OS even if the problem was obviously hardware related. I'm not sure if the same trend would occur if you change the distro, but if they offer the distro you want at least you'll get the proper hardware support you've paid for.
"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde
Be aware that in many cases even buying something preloaded with GNU/Linux doesn't mean you are avoiding indirectly giving Microsoft money. Vendors are often required to buy the machines with Windows licenses, then format them and install GNU/Linux before selling them to you. Maybe Dell has a different deal, but this practice is otherwise common.
I bought a MacBook Pro and then went out and purchased XP to install on it! p.s. it's working out fine kthnxbye.
I bought one of their lowest cost computers, preloaded with Kubuntu 8.04, and it's great. They specialize in customizing hardware to suit customer needs and for Linux compatibility. They have both desktops and laptops for sale. I ordered my computer two hours after first hearing of this company based on the favorable customer comments I found various places. Disclaimer: I have no financial connection to Zareason. I am only a satisfied customer.
The biggest reason to buy a machine that comes pre-loaded with Linux, or at least lists Linux as supported somewhere on the box, is for driver support.
Sure, most hardware will work with Linux, but you've still got some odd bits here and there that are an absolute nightmare to get working. I know I've had a lot of trouble with the integrated wireless in a couple laptops.
Hardware compatibility is an especially big issue with Dell. If you're buying one of their cheaper home-user systems you've really got no idea what is going into the case. There's a random assortments of motherboards that may wind up in that machine and some of them may support Linux better than others. This isn't as big a deal with the more expensive business-grade stuff...but I've still gotten some variation in large orders.
There's also the issue of feedback...
If Dell never sells any of their special Linux PCs they may get the impression that nobody wants them and may stop carrying them. Which sends the message to the assorted hardware manufacturers that there's no money to be made in Linux machines and there's little point in trying to build/support them.
If you buy a machine that specifically lists Linux as a feature, instead of a Windows machine, it sends the message that Linux sells. This encourages companies to offer more Linux machines and improve their support for Linux.
"Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
I feel that buying a Linux pre-loaded PC is a good thing As previously stated, it will come with hardware that is supported by the operating system, meaning that everything will work, more or less, out from the box (sorry). The higher cost can be attributed to the fact that the computers aren't sold in same quantities such as Windows PCs, or it could be that Dell has to hire tech support people who are dedicated to Linux issues. On the other hand, you won't need to buy extra software for video editing or 3D modeling, thus saving money on buying software packages.
Also, if you have children, it would also be a good thing for the kids to learn to use an operating system, which clearly has a bright future ahead of it.
just buy a system w/ windows preinstalled. :)
DO NOT accept the EULA; instead install linux
Ask for a refund of the installed software.
That way, your system can be cheaper than a system w/o an os preinstalled
I'm not sure, but I think that if you buy a PC with Windows, delete it and immediately install Linux, you will void the warranty. (Have not really read all the details when I did it, but I figure I'm going to do it either way so there's no point in finding out :p)
If it came with Linux preloaded, you wouldn't have such an issue.
example of it here
However, every time I look at (for example) Dell's computers that are preloaded with Linux, the question pops into my head: 'Why should I buy a PC preloaded with Linux?' They are more expensive, and it's not hard just to reformat the PC with Linux..."
I might be misunderstanding what your saying, but the Ubuntu machines are currrently 50 bucks cheaper on Dell's site in comparison to its Windows companion.
"I hate paying the Microsoft Tax as much as anybody else, but if paying that 'tax' allows companies to reduce my price by bundling with my PC products that I will never use, why wouldn't I just buy a Windows-loaded PC and reformat?"
Because Microsoft is an evil empire and everything Unix based is free!
BSD is for people who love Unix, Linux is for people who hate Microsoft.
This is what the 17 inch $1000 HP widescreen laptop looks like at Walmart.com:
64 Bit MS Vista Premium SP1
64 Bit AMD Turion Dual Core CPU 4 GB RAM
NVIDIA DX9 GeForce Go Graphics [Shared RAM]
DVD LightScribe Burner
250 GB HDD
Integrated Webcam, WiFi, Etc., Etc.
HP Pavilion Laptop
For $400 more:
64 Bit Vista Premium SP1
Intel Core 2 Dual CPU 4 GB RAM
Combo Blu-Ray Drive and DVD Burner. HD tuner card.
NVIDIA 8600M GS DX10 Graphics with 256 MB RAM
320 GB HDD
It doesn't matter what price point you look at.
The mass market Windows PC is always nipping at your heels. On price. On specs. On a recognizable brand name.
Walmart has taken to posting prominent disclaimers with its gOS systems:
This is a Linux based PC and will not perform completely like a Windows based machine.
To me that signals an early exit from the market.
They are more expensive, and it's not hard just to build your own.
"He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." --Paul Atreides, Dune
If you are going to install your own OS, Windows requires far more babysitting and futzing before you will end up with a fully functional system.
Come on mods, this is moderated insightful? I know this is slashdot, but insight? Really? Insight? LowUID=Insight?
1. Install windows 2. Toss in the CD's for any hardware that windows didn't accept on the fly (or download them from the manufacturers website).
Anyway, I respectfully disagree. If this is difficult, I am going to have to revoke your 4 digit geek card from someone. No, I won't get off your lawn!
Are you upset that windows doesn't ship with drivers for every printer and accessory, or are you upset that Windows doesn't ship with 400 other programs pre-installed?
Not that MS is perfect, but I don't think it is any harder than installing any other OS.
>it's not hard just to reformat the PC
Man, and here I've just been reformatting the hard drives all along - what benefits does one get from reformatting the whole PC?
Right now I have an aging Toshiba laptop that runs Hardy quite well. I do plan on purchasing a new laptop in 2009 though. When that time comes, unless Toshiba puts Ubuntu on one of their laptops, I will be buying pre-installed from Dell. Even if it costs more, I am willing to pay them to install it...just as people have been paying me to install and maintain Linux systems for the last few years. It's a SERVICE that I believe is worth the money. I couldn't sell that service as well as I have if I didn't believe that.
Yes, they bundle with crapware, MS subventions the cost, all and all so the Linux version is more expensive. If you just want to save bucks, you could do what you said you will, but did you notice that doing so will let them get away with it?
I for one don't think MS made the hardware, as a matter of fact, the crapware makers didn't either. I think it is non-sense that they are getting money out of buying a computer they didn't make just because it came with software I won't use.
Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
I bought a new WhiteBox desktop PC in the summer of 2007. I bought it specifically to run desktop Linux with no intent to ever run Windows. So, rather than looking at any of the name-brand vendors, I had exactly what I wanted, built to order by Central Computers in Santa Clara California. The good news is that I did NOT have to pay the Microsoft tax. Better still is that the price was right.
When I lived in Santa Clara (until 2001) I had good experiences with Central Computers. So, I had no reservations about buying a built to order box from them via mail order (really: online). They shipped all the parcels such that a casual observer would not know the contents were high value electronics. [I don't know if that is their policy or just luck of the draw]. Ubuntu installed and ran out of the box. No magic or hand waving required. I'm very happy with the outcome.
I have bought 2 laptops from Dell in the last 2 years for household members. In both cases I had to pay the Microsoft tax. Rumor has it that Dell makes getting the Microsoft tax refund time consuming even if you know the magic incantations. So, I didn't even attempt it. On both laptops I had to research and download drivers for non-standard crappy parts; product differentiation is a bitch. Ugh! In the end I was left with further resentment of Microsoft and Dell and a personal vow that if ever there is a reasonable ($) vendor for laptops that does not charge the Microsoft tax, they get my business.
heh, don`t frown; you`re not alone. I vaguely remembered backticks in the prose of man pages and found an example first try. From LS(1) here`s some double backtick love:
-1 (The numeric digit ``one''.) Force output to be one entry per line. This is the default when output is not to a terminal.
The truth comes out... When is Slashdot beginning to cover (and encourage) law suits demanding the refund of Linux tax?
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Typing this on a Win XP box. I have installed the OS exactly once after it came pre-installed. That was after a hardware failure took the disk down. (and the motherboard was replaced to fix the hardware error.) This machine has past it's third birthday.
As for it only being needed for running counterstrike - well never heard of counterstrike, but I do need it to run the following:
1. My CASE tool. Whoops, won't run on any Linux or Mac, nor will any other CASE tool I know of. But I live in that tool.
2. My blood meter software. Whoops, all such have to be approved by the FDA, and only Win boxes have been currently approved.
3. I used to say my dive computer, but a Linux version does now exist, though it's functionality is not what I have in Win (same for Mac).
4. VPN software used to communicate with my company's mainframe. Whoops, no Linux or Mac versions there either.
Oh, and I do have software for doing photos and video. Photoshop for stills and Roxio for video. E-mail and web surfing - check, games -check. Automated backup software - check, podcast grabbing software - check, scheduling software - check. So far I have not found a piece of software that I want that is not available for windows, the same is not true of Linux or Mac.
And finally, I do have 2 compilers on this machine, and between them, I have quite an ability to add my own software, as needed, to do my job. And some of my software has been put out for the world to use because I was the only one able to integrate it to the CASE tool.
So, quit spreading the reload every 6 months FUD, it isn't true, and you only make yourself look as foolish as those you attempt to critisize.
Just select a Dell that has Windows, and ask for a refund. I managed to do so (after quite some emails and sales chats), see: http://johnbokma.com/mexit/2008/02/11/dell-vostro-200-windows-tax-free-mexico.html
and install "Linux" yourself.
The first issue would be that you are not boosting microsofts sales by "buying" something you won't use and probably won't be getting a refund.
Plus, most pre-installed linux environments recieve a certain amount of funding from letting the company use them; though I'm not sure of that. On the other hand: it is nice to have a copy of windows around if you ever need any kind of BIOS or firmware update. It's very hard to do some of that stuff in linux.
Depending on where you buy the laptop, there is also included software that isn't "free".
For instance, I believe the Dell's come with DVD playing software, and something to support mp3. Yes, it's trivial to just download the software on your own through even the official means. But it's also a legal grey area.
Isn't the big reason for going with Dell support anyway? I'd much rather have support and guaranteed compatibility with all the hardware then spending 3 days trying to figure it out myself. I am an above average user but I still can't get wireless working on my Ubuntu laptop so now the computer is worthless...that's worth spending more to me!
http://www.clairehenry.net//powered by linux
You got the point accross to Microsoft, right. I don't think they care too much, FWIW. Maybe even to Dell itself. But you didn't make your point heard by the various hardware vendors - Is your winmodem supported by Linux? I know, maybe you don't even care about the winmodem, but the fact is your computer probably shipped with a worthless piece of hardware you could have spared.
Was your webcam easy to set up? My Dell (XPS m1210 - bought, yes, with Windows, before Dell had a choice) has a worthless winmodem and a Logitech webcam that was, back then, barely supported on Linux and costed me several hours of frustration.
Anyway... Of course I chose Dell and not, heaven forbid, Sony - Same choice I did four years before, and same choice I am expected to do next time. They are _way_ more Linux-friendly that most other makers.
I recently purchased a Dell Inspiron 1420N preloaded with Ubuntu 7.10. I was curious what the price difference was between the Vista models. The Vista models loaded with "Vista Home Premium" with the same hardware options were $50 more expensive.
What I don't understand is why the Vista model has more hardware options. It makes no sense that you can buy the Ubuntu-loaded 1420N with 4GB of RAM, but not 3GB of RAM, nor an Intel Core 2 Duo T8300, nor a 320 GB hard drive.
Most of the posts here are in regards to Dell (with small mentions of HP). Well, what about the other computer manufacturers including Apple? Besides, if you want an OS-less computer, you can always go to your local computer shop and buy one. You don't have to go with the big named manufacturers.
Agreed. If it's a fully-automated installation CD, or a pre-configred image that gets dumped on the HDD, they can do that.
If they are required to push buttons or make any choices, they're sunk.
I recently bought two Inspiron 1420s from Dell with Ubuntu 7.10 loaded. (one for me and one for the wife). I love it. It's a great notebook, especially when you throw in the coupons you can find online. On top of the fact that it came with legal DVD support and buttons premapped, it was $50 cheaper. So I am not sure where you are seeing the problem of more expensiive. Even more so, as said previously, I was guaranteed hardware support. Lastly, even if you don't want Ubuntu or the flavor they install (I work for a prominent N. American OSS company), I was guaranteed Fedora 8 and 9 would work due to the fact that Ubuntu 7.10 works. So you'd be able to wipe whatever version they send you with whatever you want and it should work. :)
At least not an Eee PC which has problems connecting to a secure (wpa or wep) wireless router (something along the lines of not receiving the DHCP crap).
I spent half a day looking at the formus and other internet resources trying to make an Eee PC talk with a Belkin router with no avail.
In my opinion if the Microsoft Tax becomes a discount (as compared to the other similar alternatives) and the machine devices just work, then just grab such bargain!
Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
Given the hassle of the refund and the great expense of dealing with these refunds, I think (playing devils advocate) it sends a stronger message when you buy what you want and exercise your consumer rights by making the necessary effort. Not to sound too elitist, but the machines offered by Dell with Ubuntu are fairly weak for their price. Hours on the phone with a CSR and possible small claims judgments against them can either be damaging, or encouraging to offer real options to the small subset of unhappy customers.
M$ plays hardball to sell their OEM VLK's. I would not be surprised if Ballmer wasn't lying when he said "Vista has been a great success" because the way M$ does business doesn't require people to actually buy it or use it. Think Dell got any "discount" or paid any less across the cost of all their machines because of a few (even potentially a million) Ubuntu computers? I bet not. M$ effectively collects a direct tax. They already have the money.
If it is playing nice, or going to small claims court, either Dell/HP is going to get screwed from both ends, or they are going to start taking money back from M$ by whatever means is necessary for them.
As long as I am making it as dramatic as possible, I have heard (at least from The Great Escape) that your primary duty as a Prisoner of War is to make it as expensive as possible for your captors to hold you. It isn't just pro-Linux, it is Anti-OS Bundling! How different would it be from all computers coming bundled with all the latest and greatest games for your computer because it is cheaper than fighting piracy. Even better, all those games are bundled at 5-10% of the retail price. I think most people would say "hurray, what a deal!". Cheap games, preloading saves time, defeats piracy (cause who needs to steal what they already have), and game developers get their fair share. Nothing about economics would have anything negative to say about this, so what is with all these elitist slashdotters coumplaining about?*
*-sarcasm
Want Big Business out of government? Take away the incentive and start by getting government out of big business!
Hey, I just bought the eeepc notebook. It was cheap with Linux and "it just works." They put real effort into making the software match the hardware, and that saves me a lot of time and energy. In that sense, they are making an effort to compete with Apple, as much as they are making an effort to compete with Microsoft or Dell. I have never had a computer run Linux so smoothly.
I bought the first Ubuntu-loaded Dell laptop (E1505N). I am glad I did it for two reasons:
1) Everything works with Ubuntu out of the box
2) I was able to reward Dell and take a license away from MS. I hate the system where Microsoft gets to put their software on every PC by default. The only way to solve this problem is for more people to insist that M$ doesn't get any license fee.
I'm sure that for most people, just discarding the Windows license is no big deal. But personally, I can't stand the system and I am happy to reward proper behavior when I have the chance.
It will only take a couple hours to slap together the parts once you get them, but if you aren't up to speed on current hardware, it can take days to research what hardware works with linux, is good quality, and is a good deal. And if you are going for the lower end, you usually don't end up saving money anyhow.
:)
I hate shopping for components - companies that were producing reliable parts 5 years ago might be producing crap today, and the sweet spot for cost/benefit trade-off is constantly changing. The last computer I assembled, almost every component has had to be replaced - first the Micron memory failed a memtest out of the box, then the IBM harddrive (first of the deskstars), then an ASUS motherboard (bad caps), then the CPU fan seized up (I was an idiot and kept the fan that came with the processor, since the warranty required it). That pretty much turned me off of building my own computers
The next time around (after a detour with Apple) I just got a Dell with Linux preloaded, and contrary to the submitter, it did cost less that the same computer with windows installed. Saved a bunch of time, I haven't had any problems with it. I suppose if I wanted a gaming machine I would build my own, since those are ridiculously overpriced, but for a simple desktop prebuilt is easier.
See barebones laptops. You can build your own laptop. It's not as easy as building your own desktop due to the size limitations and the built-in monitor, but you can build your own laptop.
The geek ridiculously overstates his significance in the mass consumer market.
His returns will be lost in the statistical noise. He can't even drive Linux beyond a 0.6% market share in a webstat. Operating System Market Share
Windows Vista alone has 15% of the market in the Net Applications stats. If the geek believes his own propaganda all of that has to come from OEM consumer sales of Vista.
The geek isn't asking about returns of the Linux box.
This is never street theater. It is an ordinary guy who thought the OS was for real.
The geek needs to be reminded that maintaining a dual inventory and support structure costs a retailer serious money. If he can write you off and save a few bucks he will do it in a heartbeat.
The question may actually be: "Why buy a pre-bloated PC?"
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
The main reason I can think to do that, is that since you're not picking parts and building yourself, you're not quite sure exactly what hardware you're going to end up with. If they send you a box with Linux already on it, then that's an indicator that drivers exist for all the hardware. That can be a factor with touch screen inputs and maybe video drivers. (OTOH, the risk associated with that, is that maybe they'll just give you binary drivers that aren't really in the xorg tree, so you still end up with an unmaintainable box.)
The only other reason (and minor) to do it, is if they just happen to put on the distro that you intend to use. I don't see that as being worth much (though I guess it's something) if this is your personal computer. But if you're buying 20 for the office? Hell yeah.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
I recently rebuilt a computer at work with windows, and my home computer with Linux. The work computer was a Dell prebuild with Windows. The only windows cd I had came with SP2, so the CD key on the machine was invalid. The work around there was quick and easy. Most major drivers were missing. Start up to Ubuntu LIVE DVD, shrink partition to leave room for a place to backup drivers needed to download. Grabbed the driver bundles necessary and hunted around for all the software I needed. OpenOffice, Adobe Reader, Blender, Avast, Spybot S&D, Firefox, Flash, Java, Python GTK, Gimp, Hydrogen, Audacity, Quicktime, and vlc. Run each application setup, configure windizupdate, turn off unnecessary services, turn off unnecessary startups, setup users, configure group policy, and good to go. Some internet connectivity problems / slowdowns were in part to blame for slow downloads, but whole thing was setup for use in about 6 work days. Not sure exactly how many actual hours of work it was because I was multitasking, and a lot of it was clicking and restarting.
For the home computer, I removed unnecessary files from my home directory, and moved them to a new partition after, shrinking my present install, for backup. By the time that was finished, I had downloaded Hardy DVD via torrent. Clean install. Everything worked and enabled restricted Nvidia driver. Added wine and Medibuntu repository via copy and paste from the respective web site howto. Copied by home backup to the new home directory while poking through synaptic to select MS Fonts, vlc player, DVD support, Adobe Reader, ssh, Inkscape, Blender, Audacity, Hydrogen, Wine, Flash, and Java. Also Marked All Updates, and clicked Apply. Everything downloaded in
Both machines work well now for their purpose. But another note, the windows machine was DEAD / virtual instant freezing after startup even in safe mode when it needed to be rebuilt. The home machine was working fine other than a few weird cosmetic issues I think were fall outs from dist-upgrading from 7.04 to 7.10 to 8.04. Not to mention I switched keyboard layouts, but couldn't get the new layout to work for the GDM or Grub.
And lastly a reason for a clean install was an old dead windows install I had not needed for nearly 6 months.
I am forever grateful for the time, energy, and sanity saved by "just saying no" to M$ garbage and unnecessary hassle.
Want Big Business out of government? Take away the incentive and start by getting government out of big business!
In my Opinion its better to have Linux preloaded because
I loaded my laptop with Ubuntu and the wireless card ( one broadcom one ) was not supported. Then i have to read a lot and play around to make it work.
I am not sure a common man buy his laptop for reading and play around or to do his things done as fast as possible without much pain.
Another good thing is support because this will bring people to choose Linux than windows because they have support and stability with tools free ( like open office etc .
Well, since you're returning it because it isn't fit for the purpose, you don't have to pay for its return. At least not in the EU.
If you're in the US you may have to threaten them first and argue based on this being a post-sale modification. Look to the cooling off period you should be allowed for any contract (like, for example, Insurance) where you don't pay to return the license, you just get your money back and they cancel the contract.
If that leaves you with a free PC, I suspect they will pay to have it returned to them...
http://xkcd.com/357/
If you want Linux (and are going to wipe the drive anyway) and the Windows computer is cheaper, just buy that. Look at it as the seller is giving you a free copy of Windows. If you want to be Principled about it, reject the eula and see if you can get a refund. However, Windows *is* one of the two main OSes in common use, and it might be handy to have a license lying around. I've been using Linux exclusively for about 5 or 6 years now, but I have some XP licenses I've acquired which have come in handy. For instance, if some lame-o company comes out with an cool phone/computer but whose sync software only runs on Windows or OS X and whose music browsing requires some database that only gets generated with said software, well, installing Windows is a lot cheaper than buying a Mac. It's also inevitable that you will want to give an older computer to someone or some charitable organization. They aren't going to want Linux. If you keep your license, then you can give them something useful that they will be happy to have.
I don't believe that is true. If I remember correctly, Microsoft told Dell that they would not be allowed to offer other operating systems on the same machines as Windows was being "offered", or it would possibly go as far as to revoke all existing Dell CD keys, if not at least loose its OEM discount. Either option would have been disastrous. In looking over the various machines from Dell, there are hardly comparable models between Windows and Ubuntu/FreeDOS.
Though honestly, I am not sure I would trust another prebuilt machine with all the tweaks they make to the firmware and sacrifices they make to cut costs on features few people know about. Maybe would feel different if I needed an ultra-low-cost PC, but the markup on a high end pc is just crazy.
Want Big Business out of government? Take away the incentive and start by getting government out of big business!
The nice thing about Linux is that it would be easy enough for one of Mark Shuttleworth's minions to build one tweaked DVD for all the machines. Setups on Windows machines are likely very similar. Considering the power offered in free slip streaming software, I'll bet Dell has access to even better stuff to get all that crapware on the desktop in no time. I find it very unlikely any tech actually does anything to an installed system beyond a burn in test, if that.
Want Big Business out of government? Take away the incentive and start by getting government out of big business!
I haven't booted Windows as bootloader OS on any computer I own since September 2006. I don't dual-boot either.
:)
BUT, I do use VirtualBox and a WinXP VM some of the time.
I have to be able to take apart voting databases, and that means MS-Access (puke) - it doesn't work in Wine. Scads of other people are stuck with some Windoze app(s) and VirtualBox is a Godsend.
That Windoze Vista sticker on the bottom of my laptop would make it damned difficult for Microsloth to complain about my Pirate Bay Special XP (thank you whoever "eXperience" is).
The XP VM also lets me troubleshoot client problems and...hell, every once in a while I run into a Blockbusters DVD rental that just chokes hard on every possible Linux codec I throw at it. By around the second time that happened and hours of tweaking, I just kinda went "hell with it" and watched my freakin' movie in the VM.
A Windows license also helps if you tweak Wine with various actual Windows DLLs and such, which people often do...
If you really, REALLY can go absolutely Stallman-pure FOSS, cool. Some of us can't.
Besides: how hard is it really to throw the make/model of what you're interested in into google with the word "ubuntu" and see whether it's likely to work?
It's probably too late to make a difference in this old thread, but that's what I've been saying ever since people started clamoring for pre-installed Linux. Dell, HP, Lenovo: yes, do by all means include a pre-installed Linux if you want; but please make an option to sell ALL models in your line-up with no OS at all. If you want to appeal to the Linux crowd, make sure your hardware is supported, maybe release a couple of drivers under the GPL?
When I need a PC, I just buy the parts and assemble it myself. Is there anyone out there, apart from newbies and business people, who buys full computers? Assembling a PC is so much fun that I cannot imagine any reason to buy a preassembled PC, except if we are talking about laptops.
The dell machines all now come with the ability to watch any DVD movie, as they have licensed this to go with the hardware (as all computer manufacturer's should). So, now, Dell is ahead.
Then use Ubuntu, and if you are weak in LINUX then Freespire comes with the codecs you need built-in.
If you go with a mini version of laptop then take your pick... but, I would wait for the ones to come out that have the Mary Lou OLPC powersaving Dual Mode LCD and amazing battery life, maybe this fall?
Even when I buy a new computer to use windows or dual boot, I blow away the preinstalled version and install an OEM version of XP pro. Then I install linux too. Removing the preinstalled version usually fixes alot of bugs. If the dell xps laptops came with linux I would buy one just to be sure everything was supported. oh wait i just found out they do. I guess I'll buy one. Dude, I'm gettin a DELL!
Oh Crap, I'm an optimist.....
Just because Dell, HP and Toshiba bundle Windows, doesn't mean everyone bundles Windows with their PCs. You can go to a local, independent PC shop right now and walk out with a Linux-compatible PC, all you have to do is ask. Some can even customize laptops for you.
I think it's a good thing that the big names are neglecting Linux, it gives small guys like me a chance to grow by focusing on the customer's wants and needs. If a client asks me for Linux, I don't scare them away while squeezing my Bill Gates plushie. Of course, if they want Windows, I'll sell them Windows for a good price. I don't get any crapware kickbacks, nor do I get free Windows discs. As long as I get to sell my sexy machines and earn a living doing it, I don't care about Microsoft politics.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
I'm not sure I follow your point. He saved money by picking and rejecting Windows of picking and keeping Linux. The Windows route requires manual install and setup of Linux. The Linux route does not. Neither route involves running or doing anything on windows. The problems of windows are awful but completely avoided in both cases.
"Why Buy a PC Preloaded With Linux? "
Because if you get one with Windows it will give your computer the AIDS.
I really like Dell and IBM computers (which are now the Lenovo line). I have two Dell computers at home, a Dell Dimension 4100 - 2000 vintage technology which has greatly impressed me with years of reliability and surprisingly decent performance. While it is getting a bit ancient now by computer standards and slow compared to newer equipment, it still works. Huge positive points to Dell for such a good machine. Another positive is that virtually any operating system I have tried on this home PC just works - ranging from Windows 2000 on the original box, to QNX, a POSIX oriented real time system, to SliTaZ, a 25 MB micro Live CD, to Arch Linux, an ultra flexible, but hobbyist oriented system. My usual desktops on this box are sidux and SimplyMEPIS, with PCLinuxOS getting air time when my kids use this old box.
Dell Latitude D600 - a great moderately priced used laptop system. I now use this for my every day home use as my primary system.
Compaq/HP D530 - a refurbished box, runs well for distro testing, but the case doesn't close well and the fan is noisy, so I do not use this as much as the others. Still, with a 2.9 GHz processor and plenty of space, it is a great distro test box.
IBM Thinkpad - used to have the T42 at work, was highly impressed with it. I now have the T60, which actually has the "IBM Thinkpad" label on it, but it is really a Lenovo T60 - on the inside, it does in fact say, "Lenovo T60". One of the best current generation corporate laptops. Thee laptop keyboard is better than the docking station keyboard for key feel, if you can believe it - one of the main reasons I love Thinkpads.
Given this, I decided to buy a Lenovo 3000 series laptop. The reason I did so was to get consumer features - a built in camera in particular. I gave up just a bit of speed - not much, to get a Lenovo 3000 Y410 - a Duo Core (1.5 GHz per core) with 2 GB memory and a 160 GB hard drive. Great keyboard, nice glossy laptop display, good Intel Pro Wireless 3945 network card, decent compatibility with current Linux distros.
I'd buy Dell or Lenovo models with little hesitation and probably HP models too. All three have been really reliable for me, and as end of model closeout or used models, they are an even better value.
Brian Masinick, masinick at yahoo dot com Linux
Obviously, there are great diffrences between Windows and Linux. The relative value of these differences ultimately comes down to what you are going to do with either. I have moved to a Dell M1330 and have been running windows of late, primarily to run some software that permits me to run various programs and share windows-based data files with others, and to try Vista, which I find a mixed bag. In the past I ran almost exclusively Linux, which I prefer in many respects. Recently, I have been taking advantage of the many different external USB hard drives that are inexpensively available for PC's these days. I would be eager to learn if others have ported Linux onto such drives to make it easy to run both Linux or Windows as one desires. Any pitfalls, experiences, comments out there from others who may have gone this route?
I bought a compaq laptop (V4325) a few years back. It came with windows but I
never used it and immediatly put linux on it.
It works great, the only problem is that hp/compaq only has a windows based bios update
utility for it. The bios on mine is very old, and I'm concerned about the possiblity of
a particular bug in it that I wanted to flash it up to the latest version, but since
I do not have windows there is no way I can.
I haven't tried running the windows client in wine yet. Im a bit nervous about that, but I think
its my last chance.
Ubuntu != Linux
It seems to me that there's a clear business opportunity by adding crapware to the preloaded Linux version and charging for it, this way lowering the sale price far lower than the Windows counterpart. It would blow the competition out of the water (and inside the support-linux track).
To do list for Windows
Well, almost everything you need.
I would also like to be guaranteed that the PC vendor isn't paying MS for each PC sold, irrespective of whether it has Windows loaded or not.
So those who suggest to buy with Windows loaded and get a refund may have a point.
...Everything downloaded inBoth machines work well now... You were telling this nice story and then you left me hanging.
TS: "Sir, you seem to be having advanced knowledge of our product. Most of our customers do not require these features."
Nerd: "Bwahahahaha! Click."
Of all the choices I've made as a computer user, my purchase of a Dell Ubuntu laptop ranks as #1.
My purchase was a conscious decision to put principles and the aesthetic of freedom above the proprietary alternatives.
I'm primarily a visual design guy, so aesthetics mean a lot to me. And so, when just yesterday I compiled my own C code (an exercise from a programming book) for the first time in 8 years, I felt like shedding a tear. Linux has supported my career so far, and yesterday it held my hand right back into my CS-influenced past.
When I stopped programming, I was using a Windows machine. Now that I've started again, it seems appropriate somehow that this change took place on an operating system meant to encourage software development and the technical aesthetic.
As an artist, I appreciate that.
It is just logical... unless (maybe) you're a "GNU!/Linux" type of person, you don't just want "free software ueber alles", but software working on you current hardware, and equiparable to Windows stuff.. free software is both free and free, but still the developers got to pay the bills... paying for Linux, as low money as it may be, you're directly and indirectly supporting people who make it possible for everyone to have Linux, KDE, Gnome, and all that stuff, today.
Check out the various companies who sell PCs with Linux onboard, such as:
:)
http://www.justworksnh.com/
http://www.penguincomputing.com/
All sell systems with various Linuxes pre-loaded. JustWorks sells Mandriva, Penguin Computing sells RedHat.
Anywho. There are options out there for those who don't want to pay the M$ tax.
Lucky for me I always have Emergency Pants!
Over the last five years, I've owned three laptops with Linux installed: a box from Linux Certified, a Dell Latitude 630, and (purchased this March) an Inspiron 1420 which had Ubuntu 7.04 pre-installed by Dell.
/usr/lib/pm-utils with the functions file telling the scripts what to do based on hardwre type.
Only the Linux Certified worked out of the box.
The Dell "Linux" 1420 took over $1000 in engineering time to solve the driver selection and configuration issues which are addressed by competent Linux Laptop VARs (wifi, suspend, and touchpad).
The fundamental problem is that there's no fixed mapping between what a given product name like "Dell Inspiron 1420N" translates to in terms of hardware, chip versions, and firmware revisions. Other users' success is not a predictor for your own.
While some people have been successful at getting specific versions of Linux to work like the bundled Ubuntu 7.04 others haven't been.
I had up to 30% packet loss with any 3945 driver I could download in binary form or recompile to run with that kernel or the RHEL 5.1 kernel, with backports of the newer iwl3945 driver failing to compile.
Digging through forums all of the people reporting problems seemed to have revision 2 of the 3945 chip.
Fortunately upgrading to Linux 2.6.25 fixed that problem, but that fix wasn't documented on any web page I read.
My system went into an infinite loop in vbetool when I resumed from suspend where other users had been successful.
Looking at bug report time frames, I might be tempted to blame a newer BIOS version (used by vbetool to restore video settings).
According to the NVIDIA README, vbetool shouldn't be used for suspend and resume. Groveling around (the Linux people have chosen to disregard decades of unix tradition writing man pages and making man -k return sensible things) one finds that pm-utils are running scripts out of
Fortunately it was a two line fix to get things working, but that fix wasn't documented on any web page I read.
Etc.
If your time is valuable you're much better off paying a Linux laptop VAR a few hundred dollars to deal with these hassles once for all their customers than doing it yourself. Dell is _NOT_ a Linux VAR (unless you count the bundled LinDVD license)
Desktops tend to just work a lot more of the time, perhaps because the user base is bigger so bugs get fixed sooner and you don't need working power management since the thing can stay on 24x7 without running out of battery.
I've never had problems installing current Linux versions on random Dell desktops.
Go ahead! Buy something like a low-end Acer with Athlon X64 (at WalMart for LT $300), or spend a little bit more and get the next-step-up dual-core X4000 or whatever. You can always stick more memory or disk on it later. First, do all the Vista updates/backup stuff to start with, then just resize the hard drive and install Ubuntu. You might have to fuss a bit with the video driver, install CODECS and stuff, but it will run like a train! Plus you'll be able to boot into Vista whenever you're feeling masochistic.
Maybe you can't get an OS-free computer in a shop, but they are definitely available in a good Internet shop. I buy from Komplett, but that's in Sweden (Norway).
"If people want a crapware free machine, why not buy a Mac?
Its more expensive than the usual PC, but Macs don't need to be formatted and reinstalled every six months like Windows, BSD, or Linux."
WHAT!!!! Please stop spreading this urban legend!
My Ubuntu installation has been running for a year with no reformatting, just the usual upgrades. Before that, my Windows2000 computer had been running a few years with only one reinstall due to PEBKAC.
The roomie's Gentoo was installed about 5 years ago - the box has had new parts, upgrades, and even a new mobo, but no reformatting and reinstalling. The house file server's Gentoo was installed long enough ago that we don't remember. It's had disks fail, but copying the image to a fresh drive is not "reformat and reinstall".
Hello, I am not sure if this helps, but some months ago I purchased a Dell XPS 420 with Ubuntu preloaded and it is great. It was really inexpensive and with all the memory and hard drive space, etc, it runs really great. The Ubuntu OS runs very smooth. Thank you.
cares? really.
i recently got a amilo pi 2530 the box said with linux. i got knoppix and a empty computer. real nice. i figure mannufacturers dont hassle with drivers stick em with a live cd that generaly supports everything and forget about it. that attitude really pised me off. i say fuckem. its better than supporting M$. and in my case cheaper just my 0.02$
I know full well that tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack
Not to mention actual technical support services from the company. Not just support in the area software/hardware compatibility. This is what Canonical does for Ubuntu. You install the OS and related software for free and buy the tech support services. I haven't needed to buy tech support services from Canonical yet, but if I need to I can rest assured it's there. Same for Dell, System76 and other companies supporting Linux.
So in that case you really aren't buying Linux pre-installed (you can do that all yourself anyway). You're just buying a guarantee that the company won't leave you high and dry for that particular model of computer when it comes to Linux and support services. A guarantee plus the hardware of course.
One simple answer: Wifi. For example, I operate an awsome little Acer Aspire 3610 laptop with Linux.
Preinstalled xp wifi works. Tried lots of linux but none support wifi on this machine. So I am waiting to buy a completely open source Linux laptop that supports wifi. Maybe the newly announced "secret Dell" will. I know of no laptop to date that are completely open source Linux supported with working wifi.
I always feel a little guilty when vendors come out with gnu/linux offerings and I don't pony up to bring one home...because, of course, I want to support their willingness to offer gnu/linux machines. But, the truth is, it's not only cheaper to go to someplace like tigerdirect.com and buy components and put together my own machine...And, of course, I clearly have more control over what I am getting in that case. So, I never buy vendor machines. I buy components and build my own machines. I think that's what many of us do, and why it is difficult for vendors to maintain a gnu/linux line with much success, as occurred with Walmart and others. I do consider one of Dell's shiny new Ubuntu notebooks, though...Or one of those cute little Asus thingies... But, as far as a desktop, I will continue to roll my own, probably indefinitely.
-- tonybaldwin.me
I never ran into this problem. I always hand-pick every part of my PC and tell some (online) company to put it together. The harddisks are as empty as can be when I get them. Of course, it requires some research to be sure that the hardware is supported by linux - but usually a simple search on Google for 'typenumber + linux' will give you a clear idea how many people had problems with a given part.
It was cheapest to simply order the parts, next cheapest to order an assembled PC, third-cheapest to have a free OS installed and set up, and most expensive to have a commercial-OS PC which would be running out of the box, as it were.
Of course, that was from dedicated vendors, not department stores or beige-box pushers.
Hit up your local craigslist "Free" section. There's plenty of old PC's people are just giving away. Download and install a free distro of your Flavour Linux. There ya have it,..one free Linux PC. If you want a Windows based PC,..download your flavour of Windows, free from any popular torrent site. And you have one FREE windows box. P.S. you can get free Windows VL editions also from torrent sites and forgo that WGA and serial BS.