Slashdot Mirror
How To Handle Corporate Blackmail?
An anonymous reader writes "I have been in a software engineering position at a large company for approximately seven years. Recently, for a variety of reasons, I accepted a new job working for a local software company. I have given my employer three weeks' notice, instead of the standard two, as a courtesy.
In return, it has been implied that, in spite my record of above-average performance appraisals and promotions, I will be marked as leaving the company 'on bad terms' if I refuse to extend my departure date further. With only three weeks remaining, I am hesitant to rock the boat by contacting our HR department, but this concerns me and seems like an extremely unethical practice. I live in an 'at-will' employment state, so I know that they have no legal recourse to keep me. I am concerned about the references they could give in the future; having spent a large majority of my career at this company, I will be dependent on them for references to verify my career experience.
Has anyone ever run into this kind of situation before?"
Would you be willing, and would your current employer be willing, to stay on a few weeks longer as a contractor at a higher pay rate? Would your new employer allow you to change your start date?
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
Very few companies will do anything other than confirm that you worked during period X. Otherwise they are opening themselves up to all kinds of legal trouble.
With a written record of your concerns on file with the HR department, your superiors will understand that a spiteful, negative reference will carry direct negative consequences for them.
... there is no law saying the references you provide have to be in your direct management chain.
As for which references you choose, if you've been working there as many years as you say then there are probably lots of colleagues who can vouch for your performance on projects where you've worked together
If libertarians are so opposed to effective government, why don't they all move to Somalia?
Aside from using them as a reference in the future , does it really matter what they say as long as you are happy with your decision?
Put your 3-week notice in writing and make a copy. Move on.
In many state is it Illegal to give any information about previous employees other than confirming previous employment, and dates.
Don't worry about your recommendation. All a large company will do is confirm that you were employed.
Briefly mention to however made came up with this idea that your lawyer has advised this is an open and shut case of blackmail, and the company may be liable for any lost earnings you may incur due to an unfair reference.
Failing that see a lawyer, but I often find you can negate there scare tactics with your own.
If that's the kind of people they are, they'll slag you off no matter how long you stay.
Make sure to keep any copies of performance reviews, etc., but don't give in to that kind of bullshit. Probably won't matter in the long run, anyway - if they're run by assholes like that, they'll be out of business in a few years.
sometimes, you run into trolls. you can't turn a troll into a nontroll. you can't force an ogre to give you a glowing reference. stop trying to think you can. you deserve it, but you can't get it
seems unfair after all you've done for them? it is unfair. nobody said life was always honey and milk. deal with it, accept the raw deal, move on
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Why not as a lawyer?
If they make an untrue statement about you they run the risk of a libel suit. They'd have to be very annoyed or mighty stupid to do that.
If they're going to mark you as leaving 'on bad terms', you may as well move the date up and quit now. It's not like they can do anything additional to screw you. Move on to your next (and presumably better) job and forget about the last one.
here.
a forever standing article on slashdot would be more effective both to your benefit and to their detriment, than anything they can write in your resume.
Read radical news here
After you leave, have somebody posing as a fictional tech company call for a reference. If they make blatently untrue statements, it might fit under some defamation law and be worth a little extra lawsuit money.
Call in sick, and never go there again.
Negative references aren't the nightmare you might think them to be. Few companies will call former employers as the reply will be very generic or just plain misleading.
Let them rot, I say.
One company I worked for marked me 'Do not rehire' when I refused to extend my notice. Which is weird since I gave them the same notice I received when they terminated my contract the first time I worked there (2 weeks).
I doubt they're going to tell any future employer anything more than the dates of employment. However (and this is just me), if you can confirm that they're definitely going to give you the bad reference, it's not going to hurt you to pack your things *today* and walk with no notice - it *is* an at-will state, after all. You've already got another job, so the reference from your current employer isn't as important as it would be otherwise, and I personally would not be in the frame of mind to offer anything more to an employer that attempted to twist my arm like that. Screw 'em.
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
Remember: get everything in writing and recorded. That includes statements and discussions about this "you need to extend your leave or we might not be so friendly". In an extreme case only, I would suggest stating that you are recording all conversations as is your privilege, and then do so (say with a digital camera or something). Refuse to have conversations that do not have other people with you, and absolutely refuse to have a 2v1 scenario (2 management plus you)...that is quite deliberate as a legal maneuver for workplaces so they can choose what to deny/accept as fact.
I'd be calling the ACLU among other places and start talking to a lawyer and getting advice in case they do pull something. I think you just found your sign of a bad employer.
Either way, get more info. This just reeks of "not enough info".
I have been in a similar situation- and there is no simple answer. You have to talk to your HR department, simply because you have no other recourse that could come with a positive outcome for you. The only other option with a positive outcome is to contact your new employer and ask for an extension, but in this job market, I would definitely seek out a response from the HR department first. Did this statement come from your boss or higher up the chain? How large a company is this?
In my situation, it was a smaller company (50 employees, give or take), and it came from the top. I ended up pulling my contract and backing the employer down, simply by pointing out that my contract required 30 days of notice, and I provided more than that. I had also let them know I was looking before I found a new employer, and already had a glowing letter of recommendation from the company, so I had proof that any negative feedback was biased and silly compared to the official recommendation. Did you provide your notice in written format, and keep a copy? Did you sign a contract when you started?
I wouldn't worry about it and proceed as planned to leave on the original date. One person's "implied decision" to mark you as non-rehirable isn't worth trying to play a little game. Besides, if H.R. does find out what this person is doing, or other employees find out, that might come to a stop very quickly. I live in an "at-will" state too, and these days former employers are very careful about the things they say concerning their previous employees because they don't wanna get sued. =) I'm not suggesting you sue anyone or go crying to H.R. but don't be bullied around by some dickweed District Manager or whatever just because they don't want you to leave and think they can play some lame con game with you.
Most of us don't leave companies particularly often, and are not experts on every detail of how to do it. As well as asking friends, why not get the collective wisdom of Slashdot, where there is experience of hundreds of companies and their behavior? Sometimes tags like "thinkforyourself" are just annoying!
Make copies of your reviews and other feedback. Then politely tell them you will be leaving on the date you originally notified them.
Also, you may want to make posts on Glassdoor.com, jobvent.com or other sites that allow you to anonymously provide feedback on the employee experience with specific companies.
If you have at least a couple of people above you (bonus: with a couple more people at the same level as you) who can give you a positive "private" reference, in contradiction to the 'official' negative ref, then you should be ok.
Also, you can have a bonus reference if you can find internal or external clients who can vouch for the quality of your work, independently from the corporate blackmailer.
With only three weeks remaining, I am hesitant to rock the boat by contacting our HR department
Think of it less as "rocking the boat" and more as "making it clear that blackmail will not work".
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something" - Plato
Slashdot is *not* a lawyer. PS I would call their bluff, then sue the hell out of them for a frivilously bad reference. PPS I am *not* a lawyer.
If you have at least one manager who isn't a complete jerk to use as a reference ignore the HR deparment.
IMHO, this is only another reason to quit this company.
Votator.com implements a fair voting scheme (free
In many companies, rank-and-file employees can be fired for saying anything positive or negative about a former employee other than confirming dates of employment. So much for relying on soon-to-be-former coworkers.
Former coworkers who have since left the company are fair game.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Is this a company you really want to work for? Any company that promotes policies like this either internally, or suggests they should be promoted is not a company worth working for in my opinion.
You should be grateful you have a new job lined up and are able to remove yourself from such an unethical company.
In the mean time, it may be smart to try and build up some sort of evidence trail about the blackmail going on. Slip a tape recorder into your jacket pocket and record the conversations you have with the blackmailer. (If you do this, make sure you check your jurisdictions laws on secretly audio taping someone first). Print out emails sent back and forth, or even if the best you can do is just writing down what you have experienced with a date and time entry as well as the best recollection of the conversation you had. Basically do whatever you can that will help you defend your character should the issue ever arise in the future.
If I can not smoke in heaven, then I shall not go. -- Mark Twain
...point out to them that giving a false bad reference is libel. It also possible that a threat like this is extortion or actionable on some other grounds: ask your lawyer about that.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
Haven't been in this exact situation, but who implied that you would be leaving on bad terms? I'm sure everyone you report up to and through, and everyone you work with have not all come to that collective opinion. If it's simply your direct supervisor, I would be suspicious of his or her reference even if I appeased him. If someone has the capacity and the tendency to be a jerk, then I don't think there's a whole lot you can do to avoid it. Just be sure to list plenty of references for the new company -- people you work with at the current company who will give you great references based on your ability. Since you've already accepted the new position, you might consider informing your new employer about the situation.
Leave sooner.
They have threatened you and have created a hostile work environment. No reason to 'suck it up'. Just leave. Feel free to suggest to them that if you even hear a hint that they badmouthed you to any future employer, or potential employer that you will seek compensation.
If you've already got the new job, then references from the last employer, in any future job hunt, will be from them. You don't need to give references from everyone you've ever worked for, unless you've worked for very few places.
Of course, "at-will" cuts both ways. You owe them no notice at all. You could always accept their offer and then use the "at-will" clause to quit after the 3 weeks are up anyway. What are they going to do?
(The fact that at-will is so dangerous is one reason I dislike it intensely. At the moment, employers only like it because they can fire people prejudicially without consequence, because it's all "at-will". If employees used it in just as hostile a manner - or more so - I'd be willing to bet that employers couldn't bribe politicians fast enough to scrap the system. It only works because employees are always far more dependent on their employers than vice versa.)
I would contact my future employer and notify them of what my current employer is doing. If they are understanding of the situation I would quit immediately. For future jobs refer to the new company and have them vouch that the first company tried to blackmail you.
Skiffy is Spiffy, but Ort is tort.
I got fired from a company I worked for for two years because my boss found some emails I'd sent to a friend of mine (who worked at one of our suppliers) calling him a complete asshole.
This obviously put me in a bit of a tricky situation with references, but luckily the general manager of the company was a good guy and knew that the guy in question indeed was an asshole, so agreed to give me a reference.
Your case is even more clear-cut than mine, in that you have obviously done nothing wrong. Given that some people in your company are obviously acting in a completely childish manner, can you find a sympathetic individual - who's not your boss but is someone high up enough - who can give you a reference?
As a final point, most companies shouldn't give good/bad references for exactly these reasons - they can be used to distort the truth to benefit the company in question. A lot of places just give a standard statement confirming that the employee worked in the specified role between the specified dates - this should be standard.
Just use one of your friends and coworkers instead of the actual HR dept.
Of course, the HR guy hiring may have the idea to contact them anyhow which is okay, but now he will have two sides of the story.
NO SIG
It is sad that our laws do not permit you to strangle these bosses. But somehow I would love to see you document that threat and sue them into total bankruptcy.
Quite a few employers see employees only as some sort of slaves deserving of misuse. Turn the tables on them if you can.
Purely anecdotal and IANAL, but I was under the impression that companies were only allowed to confirm or deny your employment, and not give feedback about your performance. Is this a state-to-state issue?
Most places I've applied to have asked for references separately from the initial application, although there will occasionally be one that asks for previous supervisor names on an application. I've seen some that had checkboxes to indicate if the company was allowed to contact the person or not.
Have you given written notice of resignation? I've known of some people who provide one to act as official proof of your resignation, and you can indicate things such as giving them three weeks notice.
Anyway, you're probably better off just sticking to the three weeks you've already said you've given them. If you've already told your future employer your start date, you don't want to start off on the wrong foot and upset the new bosses. And some companies will try to pile work on anyone who says they are leaving. Sometimes it's valuable work, but other times it will be a form of punishment. Sad, but true.
I hate to say it, but if you don't finish something, what are they really going to do to you? I know a lot of people have a sense of professional conduct, and I've personally stayed late at jobs on my last day to finish some stuff off, but if they are going to be blatant jerks, I don't really think you owe them anything.
As long as you're not screwing anyone over too harshly, I don't think there's a problem with you leaving when you originally planned. From the sounds of it, it's not a very nice place to work, so you're probably better off leaving as soon as you can and getting a fresh start. Hopefully your new place of employment will be nice. You never know until you actually start working there (speaking from experience).
Oh, and I'd be curious if HR had an exit interview planned with you. This is something you could bring up there or contact HR prior to leaving, in writing. This decision probably plans on how objective your HR department is. No harm in not wanting to rock the boat, but I don't think you can let your previous employer push you around like that.
If all you have are silver bullets, everything looks like a werewolf.
If I were you, at first I would try to avoid the conflict: go to your new employer and be honest, explain the situation and try to get a later date to start.
If it's not possible, I would go to the HR, make a formal complain *and* I would try to make your current boss say the threat aloud and record it. There are very small digital recorders easily available.
Scientia est Potentia
Pretty much everywhere I've worked, I've either been escorted out immediately or within 2 weeks when I've given notice in the past. In fact, for the most part, even if I've offered more time in order to train whatever person is there to handle the work I did, they haven't taken me up on it. Of course, they call 2 weeks after I'm gone with a ton of questions and requests for free tech support, at which point I give them my hourly bill rate and wish them the best.
Leave immediately and never go back.
Contact an employment lawyer, and have them write a "lawyer letter" along the lines of "In response to your threat to provide unfavorable references unless our client agreed not to leave your employment on (date), our client is leaving your employment immediately. Any action on your part to defame the character of our client will be dealt with appropriately". Should cost you about $100.
One of the standard legal services is writing such letters. Basically, you can pay a lawyer to write what you want in legal language and send it on the lawyer's letterhead for a modest fee. This is useful when faced with annoying threats or recalcitrant vendors.
Ask them for a letter of reference and request that it be delivered before your last day on site to "avoid problems with site access" beyond that date (or some reason you know they'll grudgingly accept).
Then contact a lawyer and let the attorney know what's going on so they are prepared in case you do not receive the letter.
If there is questionable language in the letter of reference or some sly play on words, engage the lawyer in a full blown consultation with the letter of reference in hand.
Though no one stuck up for me in the software professional world, I've learned about stooping to the level of others.
Cheers,
AS A Pentateuchal Student
The MOST critical thing you can achieve is a recording of them stating the threat.
Visit your local spy shop, or order the gear on the web. Wear a wire. If you know how to record the phone unobtrusively, even if you must use an acoustic coupler, do so.
Once you, or ANYBODY, sees an employer doing this - arm yourself with the gear you will need, or you will be defenseless. Then, get an attorney and give them copies of the recordings AS SOON as you finish making them. Do not wait, do not stay home for a week, do it RIGHT AWAY.
Because of fear of being sued, no one ever gives references these days beyond "yeah, he worked here" and honestly because of this, most employers don't even check references any more. The proper response to these sorts of threats is "if I hear another word of that, I quit effective in ten minutes."
The cake is a pie
You don't need a reference from your current employer if you already have accepted another position. So what are you worried about? Seriously.
The more crap you put up with, the more crap you get. If you let this employer intimidate you, prepare to be a doormat in your next job, too.
How exactly you want to handle your departure depends on the kind of person you want to be. Ignore the threat, give an angry counter-demand, sit down with your boss and try to talk about it like reasonable people, ask HR to mediate, hire a lawyer... you have lots of options. Do whatever will be best for your self-respect.
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
Asking Slashdot for legal advice is like asking your plumber to repair your car.
Document everything and talk to someone who really knows what they're talking about.
I've moved an left a few jobs, I've been fired from one. In the course of job doing data management, I found the general manager of the company embezzling $20,000 per month. I contacted HR & legal discreetly. Its a publicly traded small company ($150MM market cap). Doesn't matter. The GM fired me shortly thereafter.
Its a small industry, and when people call for references, they say bad things. "Doesn't follow through", "lack of focus", "wouldn't show up". General bullshit. I've lost several good jobs because of this.
Here's the shitter: I HAVE NO FUCKING RECOURSE. I fucking stumbled across some BIOTCH stealing, tried to do the right thing, and now I'm fucking paying the price for it. I've been out of work over a fucking year, and can't get a fucking job to save me. I've burned through ALL my life savings (I'm 38), and have no prospects for work. My wife is stressed and I have young kids to take care of.
So, I don't know what to tell you. Its very possible to get very screwed through no fault of your own.
Remember this, though: Nobody is looking out for you but you. NOBODY. There is no honor at company. No ethics, no morals. NOTHING. If you don't sleep under the same roof, expect nothing of people.
yes, I'm bitter and jaded. And I've earned it.
Wow...that's a whole new level of management douche-baggery. I say bring it up with HR that you're essentially being blackmailed by your supervisor so that it's on record, keep any paperwork regarding your positive performance reviews, and say good riddance to that shit hole of a company. Should you find out that your old supervisor is bad-mouthing you to potential employers, you could use your performance review paperwork as proof that he's full of shit, and potentially bring forth a slander lawsuit against him if you're the litigious type. However, with these kind of management skills I'd imagine that he wouldn't be in a position to be bad-mouthing you to anyone important too far into the future.
Spam Assassin.
Kwisatz Haderach
Sell the spice to CHOAM
This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
Check your employee handbook if you have one. As long as you put in the minimum amount of notice necessary as listed in your handbook they should mark you as re-hireable. It may list 30 days, but one to two weeks is typical. If it's not listed, just be kind and courteous to your manager and express your concerns in writing to your HR Manager. Document everything and save everything. Make sure to send them an email thanking them for meeting with you and list the bullet points of the discussion, along with requesting delivered and read receipts. They should play ball. If not, you might have a case. I'd recommend checking with an employment law lawyer in your state. Keep in mind you'll probably have to pay for the consultation. Unlike class action attorneys on my site (http://www.TopClassActions.com) they don't work on contingency.
Warm Regards, Scott Scott Hardy - President and CEO of Top Class Actions LLC
I'm assuming this is your manager making the threat and there is a separate HR department. If so then go to HR with your concern and only provide the HR person as your reference (which you should do anyways).
If not then I'd ask your new job if you can start sooner and explain the situation. You don't NEED to work a 2 week notice, it's nice that you are willing to do so but if they are not going to be happy with just a 2 week notice then give them nothing. I'd certainly not ask the new job to delay your start date, your obligation is to them now ,not your old job.
Obviously, you have some capabilities that they can't do without. You should be able to capitalize on that.
Tell them that you can be put on a retainer, so, for a nominal fee (maybe triple your new hourly salary), you will help them out for up to 8 hours a week - either by helping them with particular projects, training new people, bringing management up to speed, or whatever. Also, require them to give you a stellar written review on company letterhead.
They are being assholes - I've never heard of such a thing. Generally, in my experience, the employer entices the employee to stay by offering a higher salary, bonus, upgraded position, or other perks. Badmouthing employees (or employers) is generally an awful strategy.
But don't get mad. Scratch their itch by giving them what they need and by getting a lot out of it yourself.
Carry a tape recorder, and get them to threaten you again. Also return the favor, and tell others what these dirtbags are up to.
Tell them if 3 weeks isn't good enough you can leave now instead. Call their bluff essentially because you obviously have the upper hand in the situation. They need you more then you need them. Don't let your personal feelings get in the way in regards to how they will reference you.
Furthermore (at least in my state, Wisconsin) there are only two questions a former employer can answer when being called for a reference about previous employment.
a) How long did you work there? //IANAL
b) Would they rehire you?
IMAGE VERIFICATION IS EVIL!
I had a similar situation happen to me. My asshole of a supervisor said I HAD to give them more time I changed my date from 2 weeks to one week, he decided to make it immediate and I had a nice little vacation between jobs.
I understand he has since been fired.
You can't trust someone who is going to threaten you.
Depends on what you mean by "implied". If it's in any way been directly stated, I would recommend addressing this directly with HR. Ask for a written letter analyzing your performance right now. If they're unwilling to do that, consider upping the leverage to "If you can't make that commitment to not screw me, then I'll just be leaving today".
Honestly I'm not sure written recommendations make that much difference. I don't think I've used one in any of my technical jobs.
We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
Get it on record and make certain HR and upper management are aware of the situation. Be aware that this may make your last weeks more difficult if you have to continue to work for the (I assume) immediate supervisor you were threatened by. However, if your HR department has any common sense, they will flag this person in their records and arrange for you to work with someone else until you leave; or, offer to let you go early with severance for the 2-3 weeks you offered to stay.
Then if you get a bad mark, show that request to the new employer. If they take that as a bad sign for your employment, you're better off leaving.
And sue the arse of the old company for disparagement, damages and libellous conduct.
IMHO as a long term member of the software engineering community, I think that you're covered and can reasonably get out. Your previous employer is greedy, and wants more of a good thing.
Since you're part of a development effort and may have a body of unique knowledge, it would be a good idea to offer to help them transition in a new person to replace you, and to be willing to answer questions they might have on a contract basis after you've left. This is really up to you, though. You're not required to do this, and if they get mean or greedy about it you should definitely cut them off.
This is no more than we can expect from employers these days. We get our two weeks severance and we're out the door, and we consider ourselves lucky to get that. You may want to consider any personal relationship you have with the management, but professionally speaking, I think you're doing just fine.
Wake up - the future is arriving faster than you think.
Change all the passwords on the routers/switches/wireless and DON'T TELL THEM!!! Not even if they send you to jail!
tomorrow who's gonna fuss
It may be a bit late to help you, but publicly traded companies fall under the purview of Sarbanes Oxley.
When I worked for a publicly traded company a couple years back, a letter was included in my new hire packet that provided the phone number of a third party I could call if I believed some kind of fraud was going on within the company.
See if any of this helps you too - http://www.sox-online.com/act_section_806.html
If you've got another job lined up and they want you in three weeks your hands may be tied but if the new place can give you some leeway or if the old place doesn't mind paying you whatever figure you give them per hour you may be able to help them out after you leave.
-EB
Do you ever walk alone like a drifter in the dark?
That's what they want you to do. You leave without fulfilling your notice, so then they write bad things - self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts and they win. Get your concerns in writing with HR, find out what they can legally say about you in your area, and then do exactly what you said you would do.
If one of your references is the one making threats, however, you're kinda screwed because you essentially gave permission to go beyond the basic information. In that case, follow other advice here.
I don't think you are required to give any notice and giving them more than the customary 2 weeks should make them happy with you, not threaten you. This is extortion and, as someone else said, libel. If you have any official documentation of that claim, I would sue them. . .and I am NOT a big lawsuits, but a company trying to threaten you like that deserves one.
I will be marked as leaving the company 'on bad terms'
Ooh, a bad mark! Scary. "This is going on your permanent transcript, son."
Think for a minute: You're an adult now. Your self-worth is not dependent on what some vague authority figure thinks of you. From now on, it's your personal relationships with coworkers that will matter for future recommendations/networking/etc. You're leaving the company, for pete's sake, so it doesn't matter what it says in your HR folder - no one will ever look at it again.
The most rabid believers in American Exceptionalism are the exact same people whose policies are destroying it.
You don't state which country you are in. In the UK, it is illegal to give a bad reference if the person being referred to do did not perform badly.
If anything the law has gone a little too far in this area - its very hard to hand out bad references because of this law. Which means bad people end up with OK references.
You still have recourse to the law if you find they have said untrue things about your performance.
As someone else has said, if thats how they treat you, retract your extra week of time, giving them only two weeks notice and move on. No point being nice to people that treat you badly.
It's the American way!
Or you can tape record the buffoons threatening to give you an unwarranted bad reference if doing so is legal in your state.
A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
Offer to extend your time but get something in return. A retention bonus etc. They will probably decline the offer.
I agree with the other posters who said to get out now.
The worst thing you can do is to start off with your new employer by delaying your start date.
Three weeks is more than enough to be professional about it all, even if the company you're currently at does not reciprocate.
Go to HR and report the manager who threatened you. Ask for clarification: "Is this standard company policy? Are you going to allow it?" Most likely, they will speak to the manager and tell him to back off. Even if HR encourages this sort of behavior normally, they'll likely discourage it in the case of the person who confronts them on it. If they don't encourage it, then you're doing the company a favor by reporting the manager.
If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
let your buffoonish boss you intend to speak to the FBI (assuming this is in the USA) about being blackmailed, and legal counsel.
bottom line in this country, they can't say boo negative about you, all they can do is confirm employment.
if you already have a new job, then call in sick for 3 weeks. or just leave.
hell, if you have any proof (witnesses) that can attest to this, you may never need to work again.
Have the PFY get the van and a roll of carpet; no one blackmails a Bastard... Seriously though Make copies of everything, talk with a lawyer. Possibly try and gather evidence or reliable witnesses.
for mal practices, intimidation, slander, blackmail, and intent to slander
If they'e going to try to pull that shit on you, you have no obligation at all to remain polite. Call your new employer and see if they'd like you to start sooner, or just take some time off.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Seriously, hire a PI to phone your company as an employer seeking a reference for you now.
Have him do the same thing once you've left.
If there are any serious differences between the two reports, unless you drastically changed what you are doing at work, the company has now set themselves up to pay you a very large settlement. Also, if the reference is the same, but negative, you will find yourself in the same position.
You do not need to put up with this, but you do need to protect yourself by doing this now.
You could hire a lawyer to deal with getting you the same information, but I'd suggest at this point just hiring your own investigator. If everything is peachy, you've saved yourself the cost of the lawyer. If it isn't, you should still have the necessary info--I imagine PIs are used to getting calls from lawyers for this sort of thing and they'll know what to do.
If they lie about you in the future, you may have a cause of action for libel (if written) or slander (if spoken).
For this reason, most companies have policies in place regarding disclosing information about past employees. Most of these policies dictate that the only information given out will be to confirm that the employee worked there, and possibly starting dates/ ending dates. It's easier to give out just this basic factual information than have to deal with lawsuits from disgruntled employees.
I suspect the 'on bad terms' designation is either (A) an internal only designation that will only affect your future with this specific company or (B) a fiction invented by your supervisor to intimidate you into staying longer.
IANAL
You do have recourse.
Call the SEC and your local DA's office.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
If you can document your past above average performance appraisals, you have nothing to worry about. Most new employers will understand the source of sudden animosity as being due to the separation. In fact, any business that doesn't understand the games being played in the employment market isn't going to last very long. They'll end up having their best employees poached and have nothing to show for it but thrown chairs.
Have gnu, will travel.
The following is not legal advice - just my personal experience and some ideas: 1. Do not take this lightly. It is criminal conduct covered under Pub Law 107-204, 116 Stat, Sec 745 (Sarbanes-Oxley Act) and relevant to Title 18 USC Sec 1519 and 1513(e). Specifically, unlawful forced employment beyond the specified time is Title 18 USC Sec 1201 (read it). 2. Further, threat to carry out an action pursuant to your condition is Title 18 USC Sec 875 related conditional interference in future employment violating Title 18 USC Sec 1951. I know this because I'm filing on such a matter presently, pursuant death threats against myself and my family related kidnapping of my child without court order and false trial spanning 7 years with no lawful action of State and Federal officials. 3. You need the content of this threat in writing if that is the case, for criminal evidence, and should bring it to the attention of HR as a criminal complaint which you intend to file - as well as request with reasonable cause for an immediate letter from the company supporting your conduct and any review or documents regarding your person be provided immediately for such action. Denial of such evidence is cause for further Federal charges (all files relating an employee are the property of that employee, and must be provided and disclosed on demand of the employee). Failure to do so, in regard to a supporting supoena (which would be your next step) would be Title 18 USC Sec 1509 (Obstruction of Justice), so they should be very serious in their consideration of such denial or any alteration of documents after the fact. Failure to do so may result in corporate criminal charges applying to the Director or CEO of the firm who did deny or did refuse willfully to execute such request on demand (SOX). 4. Under public law, no person shall accuse another of a crime. This is up to a grand jury - which the U.S. Attorneys office or FBI (referring the matter to the US Attorney) will carry out. However, such a threat is a direct threat to life, property, and welfare - and as such may be responded to publicly and in association with the name of the firm, the officer, and the parties in the complaint, in addition to relevant legal citation of laws - before the media in case of public threat or publication or disclosure of libel (false information) or other means of duress against the victim of such initial threat. This matter covered in NY Libel law and the right to defense before public scrutiny pertaining self-defense. In my child's abduction at 81 days of age, I was publicly libeled and my full name taken out as a dot com address by the abductors from 2002-2004. Because law enforcement did not accept the seriousness of this and death threats published online in 2002 and assaults related in 2002 and 2003, my case was refused equal enforcement of criminal law (14th Amendment) over civil judgment ordered 'without right to face the accuser in court' or their counsel (plaintiff did not appear twice, defendant was denied access to the court room in subsequent and final hearing, and mistrial complaint ignored or denied despite 24 hours notice of hearing due interception of summons). The net result, 7 years of child concealment and $108,000 in damages on top of $900,000 in lost income, has led to a pending $400M lawsuit and 14 Federal Criminal counts under submission by our office on Title 18 USC Sec 872, 875, 1201 (The Lindberg Act), 1202, 1204, 1509, 1513(e), 1519, and 1951 (The Hobbs Act). In class action, the State of Texas plead Sovereign Immunity to avoid hearing the case, and then the Federal class action was dismissed denying the existence or reality of any legitimate complaint without investigation or interview or access of witnesses to the court. What you are encountering is a very criminal act, and should be recognized as such - as well as prosecuted. It is extortion in the most clear-cut sense, Interstate and International by nature of threat and job market, and can potentially ruin your chances at employment in the present corporate
No kidding. I wonder why the author of the post is asking advice from slashdot readers, when he or she should be talking to a lawyer.
Stop worrying about it. The chances are exceptionally high that you current employer won't say squat about your employment with them, and besides any future job after this one will be more interested in you last employer who won't be your current employer.
There have been so many lawsuits over employer comments about past employees that any large employer, and any smart small employer, won't say anything more than Mr. X worked here from [start date] to [end date]. While this works against you if you left on glowing terms, unless your current employer and some future employer are close buddies at the tennis club this is not anything you should need to worry about.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
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Regardless of any recommendation or how long you have left at the company, IMO it is your duty to report this to HR immediately. If not to HR, then if your company has an ethics group or legal department, then to them.
Depending on the company and where you work, this could be not only a violation of company policy, but a legal issue.
If this has happened to you, it may have (or probably has) happened to others and will happen again if nothing is done to prevent it.
Also, most companies will keep who/what/when details confidential regarding the reporter so reporting this abuse shouldn't be your concern.
Additionally, although since your a short-timer this doesn't affect you, look negatively on people who don't report this type of abuse (as is the case where I work) and actively pursue not only the reporting of this, but the prosecution of it through company standards and training, and for the abuser reprimands, time-off without pay, and even termination.
Ask them what the company policy is regarding giving references. Explain you are worried because of what your manager has said.
HR exists to protect the company. Your manager is jeopardising the company since any unfairly poor reference would leave the company open to legal action. HR won't like his actions.
I had a similar issue.
I left a position where I had performed above and beyond my entire stay at the company, and my boss knew it. When I gave my notice he:
1. First offered to double my salary.
2. Said he would ruin me professionally.
3. Said he would sue me.
4. Said he would kill me.
I knew there was no merit to any of the four, so I took my leave. When interviewing in the future, I explained in minimalistic details that I preferred not to have the new companies contact the old one. I do not recommend this, but I didn't know what to do at the time (he was the owner and HR department). I found that I made the most progress with companies that put there potential programmers through rigorous person-to-person, technical questioning. I ended up landing another job that did actually pay twice my salary and have lived happily ever after since then.
This is a classic tactic.. you have vertical skills that really cannot do without, have done no succession planning and find themselves with their arse hanging out if you leave. I am sure there is a scramble to get "bob" to mind meld with you for damage control. I have been on both sides of the fence with this one, both as the "valuable" employee who knows way too much, as well as a CTO with my "A" team members threatening to leave.. I handled the first situation thusly: "I cannot extend my employment beyond my original departure date. However, I would be happy to provide remote support on a T&M basis as long as you desire my assistance." Tell your new employer that you will be providing some off-hours support for your old company to ensure a smooth transition. This does a few things for you. It lets the old company know that you have no desire to leave them high and dry as a corporate knowledge keeper (giving them access to you after your departure), and lets your new company know that you are a stand up kinda person who "cares for the better of the business entity" (the one you are leaving). I have supported this arrangement when on the receiving end and have participated in it when on the departing end. It is a worthy compromise, not to mention if they really ping you hard after you leave, you get paid for every hour you work. This serves as a reminder to those of us in IT, train your replacements!!, document where you can and always have contingencies in place.. If "bob" were hit by a bus tomorrow, where would you be. SOL is not the answer you should be giving yourself.
"The world is moving so fast these days that the man who says it can't be done is generally interrupted by someone doing
Talk to a lawyer. In at-will states, this kind of intimidation is probably illegal. A lawyer will know. Also in your state, the state attorney's office might have an office or complaint bureau set up for this kind of thing. Again, a lawyer will know. Armed with the law, it's easier for you to stand your ground. If this policy is local to your company's branch or division, the corporate office might want to know about it too. Some of them frown on bad PR and legal entanglements. They may even take action on your behalf.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
1. Get a friend or contact to write to the manager in question, asking for a reference. ...
2. If, as expected, reference is libellous, sue.
3.
4. Profit!
This has happened to me several times. If they feel you can be of any help whatsoever they naturally want to hang on to you however most will accept that you have other plans. There are a few, very much like the people you are dealing with that want to jerk you around. My suggestion is to ride out your three weeks then say goodbye. Move on to your next job and if any negative comments come from that part of your past show them your performance reviews and any praise you may have received while there. If you still have problems after that contact your attorney, as you may have a libel case on your hands. -Siege10
Its a publicly traded small company ($150MM market cap). Doesn't matter. The GM fired me shortly thereafter.
If you've got proof, it's probably something that local law enforcement and the SEC would be interested in discussing with you.
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
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I once gave a company 2 months notice as I valued them and my coworkers, and knew I would be hard to replace and wanted to give closure to open projects. The result was 2 months full of passive agressive hostile behaviour by upper management. As a result I learned my lesson and won't be doing it again. Two weeks and I'm out.
I always kept off site copies of my performance reviews. Asking for a copy of your HR file is also a good idea.
From the sounds of your problem description the negative statements are from an isolated individual so penalizing the whole organization is not professional. Most of the "leave immediately" advice is unprofessional, it may be legal but thats not the point.
Once you have done paragraph one and assuming paragraph two is correct, discuss the situation with the person, preferably with someone you trust and/or an HR rep present and explain how you interpreted what they said. Ask if you have misunderstood, take notes and or record the meeting. Once that is cleared up and assuming they still want you around, continue to do the best job you can and make sure you leave the company on as good terms as you can.
If you really want to slap the turkey then have their manager present as well. The sheer fact that the person said something that could be easily construed as blackmail is very serious and can only be dealt with when the people responsible for the person are involved. If I had a manger make such threats I would want to know immediately so that proper training and incentive could be provided to make sure they never do it again.
If you feel you need legal advice, see a lawyer.
If you live in a single party notification state I would attempt to get the boss to incriminate themselves on tape.
You can then choose to various actions from that point. Sit on it just in case, Go to HR, go to a lawyer or Let the boss know you have his balls in a vice.
If the dude is rich and he causes damages you might want to look into civil litigation.
I once had a boss who told me to do it his way or take the highway. This was one step below taking a blood oath. I left the company. I did put in a six-week notice to finish my project. Turned out that I was the third of a dozen senior employees who left the company because of this manager. The company later went into bankruptcy.
Remember that you're a professional who expects to be treated as a professional. If not, take the highway to find a better company.
From your post, it appears that you have received the following message: "Work for me or I'll say something that will embarass you professionally."
This meets the elements of extortion; not that it would ever be charged.
It is also the foundation of a tort--an intentional tort. Intentional torts, in many States, get punitive damages.
Here is where it gets funny. A threat has been communicated to you. This means that you could file a lawsuit. This means that they have to answer it. If they try for summary judgment, they will lose because you will say the threat was made and they will deny it. This means that there will be a trial. This means that the other side will have to hire lawyers and get witnesses and experience some anxiety over the fact that the jury just might believe you. This means that they will probably want to settle (although maybe not for much).
So, you have a potential piece of canned whoop-ass in your backpack. Your negotiating position with your employer is not inconsiderable. If the threat made to you was in writing, then you have a can of extra-strength woop-ass. This whoop-ass has a limited shelf-life (the statute of limitations), so you can't rely on its potential forever.
You ought to consider taking the threatening lawyer letter one step further. Offer to settle your extortion claim in exchange for a small severance package and an expressly defined (by settlement contract) absolutely INCANDESCENT letter of recommendation.
Make a photo-mounting of your boss doing dirty stuff with prostitutes and threaten him with showing it to his wife.
Offer to work as a part-time consultant after your three weeks are up, at an appropriate rate of pay (MUCH higher than your current pay there)
I guess it depends on your definition of large, but many large business have a policy of not doing references. Typically for just this reason. References can be a slippery slope to go down if things are said out of spite. And besides, no matter who you are, a month after you leave they'll have forgotten about you. You aren't nearly as important as you think you are. Not being personal, just reality. There's a saying that is pretty true, 'The cemetery is full of irreplacable people.'
Me? I'd be very careful who I talked to about this. It sounds like someone dangerous wrote it... someone who might snap at any moment, stalking from office to office with an Armalite AR-10 Carbine-gas semiautomatic, bitterly pumping round after round into colleagues and co- workers.
Even if the company you're leaving from throws you a ticker tape parade as you walk out the door, how do you know that they won't give you a poor recommendation down the road?
Get a lawyer and sue them till the cows come home.
Just get some stable references from co-workers that you can trust. Gather all the positive reviews and notes that you are bound to get. Collect evidence for the attempted blackmail through your employer and directly confront HR with it. Then just go to your new job. When someone brings up a "negative" reference from your old job pull out the evidence collected and show them what a bunch of lying bastards they are. If the new company will still hire you after that you'll know you've done the right thing ;) other than that I'd ask a lawyer if you can sue your current company.
This pseudo-warning has no merit whatsoever. The worst they can do is mark you as ineligible for rehire - which usually prompts questioning by HR and your manager's superiors. Although most states prevent anything other than dates, positions, salary and rehire verification - some metro areas do have a tight IT network. You did your part by giving more than a two-week notice. Your manager is trying to squeeze every last ounce of talent from you before you leave. Stick with the three-week notice...and if he/she still has a problem, make it two weeks and give yourself an extra week of vacation! :)
At my last employer I was very open with my manager. I think I even warned him that I had an interview and got his permission to use him as a reference. He gave me an excellent reference. Later, when I told him I had accepted the job and negotiated a start date with HR at the new employer he was quite annoyed because he had negotiated a different start date with my new hiring manager (I did not know this). I contacted the hiring manager and HR and changed the start date to make my current manager happy. One of the issues was I was getting married in a few weeks, then had a trip planned to England a few weeks after that, and he wanted me to be around for a little while after my trip. I think it ended up being at least 2 months from when I gave my notice to when I started at my new job.
Make sure your current employer gives you their demands in writing, and take notes as to what and who says what to you regarding it.
Go to HR and ask to see your personnel file now (you are allowed by law to see your file), if you can make copies.
Even if the boss won't give you the "threat" in writing, having your documentation before anything happens will allow you to at least sue for libel/slander if they indeed go through with their threat.
The key here is, document, document, document.
Get copies of everything that's been written to you. And if it's not written, if your supervisor told you orally, then make sure he tells you again ... while you're wearing a hidden recording device and microphone (make sure it works first). Check with a lawyer, but I know (because I asked) in some states recording phone conversations (without letting the other party know) is legal. Even if it isn't, that's an ace you can keep in the hole; the legal consequences of playing it may be outweighed by the benefits you achieve.
You caught your manager committing a crime?
And HR and legal BOTH put up with it instead of investigating?
Ok, your manager is a shithead, and HR and legal both either got their heads up their butts, or are in on it.
Since it's a publicly traded company, you may also want to escalate this internally. Tell the board of directors about BOTH the embezzling AND the fact that HR and legal didn't do squat about it.
Lastly, if it's not past the statute of limitations for embezzling, I would suggest you report this as a criminal offense to the local DA or SEC.
Respond to a veiled threat with an all-out nuclear assault. Escalate everything! Turn all dials right the hell up to 11!
Contact the union TODAY, get ready to file the grievance TODAY, do it all TODAY... and then actually file the grievance with the HR office at corporate headquarters on the day you leave (your original departure date). Better yet, phrase your grievance to say that this threat of negative action was WHY you felt you were forced to leave.
This is not only to make that particular manager suffer, perhaps ending his career at the company. This is to establish a track record, so that if they ever say anything about you that isn't absolutely glowing, you can sue, sue, sue, again and again and again.
Oh, and put the telephone number of the local Fox news station on your speed-dial list, just in case this calm, rational approach fails.
The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them. - Mark Twain
Is to say if you are eligible for rehire or not. I work for a state university, and since we are a government entity they are very careful about all the lawsuit related stuff. If someone calls and asks about your employment, HR will tell them your dates of employment, and if your are eligible for rehire. They don't say why you are or aren't, but they will confirm that.
Now if you use a supervisor or such as a reference, that's different. Since you've marked them as a reference, they are free to answer the questions they are asked in that capacity.
In general though, you are correct in that there isn't going to be any problem and if they do create a problem, you can make an even bigger one for them. If a future employer calls them about your employment, it'll be HR they talk to not your boss. HR will not know or care who you are, they'll just pull the records and say "Ya he worked for us from X date to Y date."
You have recourse and need to talk to a lawyer.
"The Corporate and Criminal Fraud Accountability Act is part of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act of 2002, enforced by the Department of Labor. It protects employees of publicly-traded corporations from retaliation for reporting alleged violations of any rule or regulation of the Securities and Exchange Commission, or any provision of Federal law relating to fraud against shareholders. Not only does this landmark Act criminalize employer retaliation, it also requires publicly-traded corporations to create procedures for internal whistle blowing. Additionally, it requires attorneys to become internal whistle blowers."
Having been there for 7 years, are you on good personal terms with either your boss or his boss?
If not, why the hell not? If you couldn't get on good terms with your bosses, you should have left years ago.
If so, explain the situation and ask for a written recommendation.
Almost nobody checks the full employment history. They check your three references and they check your immediately preceding employer and that's about it. If you ever need a clearance, they'll check your employment history but don't sweat it: they almost don't care what your employer says about you as long as it matches what you claimed they'd say about you.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
The answer is strangely detailed in the previous Slashdot posting, namely the Conficker worm. Just install the Conficker/Downadup worm/virus on every PC and server in the building and walk out!
return 0; }
I think there is confusion about the doctrine of "at-will" employment. No law, outside of involuntary servitude to the government, will force someone to remain in another's employ. It simply means that the employer can terminate employment, at any time, with or without cause, barring any reason barred by Federal or State anti-discrimination laws. Even if you had a contract for employment with the employer, you could still leave at any time, although it is likely there would be some form of monetary damages specified in the contract for breach of said contract, by either party. Indeed, if there was damages for only one of the parties, the contract would likely be held to be malformed, and a court would probably create a damages provision for other party, should the contract require legal enforcement by the judiciary.
Slashdot: Playing Favorites Since 1997
You absolutely need to let H.R. know the situation. Otherwise the company has a valid 'bad apple' defense -- that your manager was a bad apple and if only you had brought the issue to management's attention....
Continue to work for as long as they want, up to the three weeks you specified in your letter of resignation. In any case they'll have to pay you for all three weeks.
Then, have a friend call the company posing as a potential employer and ask for a referral. (If your state allows it, record this call.)
Either you'll have nothing to do as a result, or you'll have a very compelling case against the company.
Oh yeah, IANAL
That's what they want you to do. You leave without fulfilling your notice, so then they write bad things - self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts and they win.
How is that them winning? If their *goal* is to give you a bad reference then they will find an excuse, whether a real one or not. You might note the HR person made it immediate, which has different legal implications than somebody quitting early, so it sounds like the HR lost in a fit of rage.
If you don't have an agreed notice period, then you can't be held to one except by a mutual agreement. If one party isn't mature enough to accept this then it isn't going to work.
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
If this is as you say, and the threat is as clear as you're describing, then don't mess around- contact the HR Department immediately and report this. Your boss is a liability (legally and figuratively) to the company as well as your career.
If that doesn't work and they follow through on the threat, it's time to "lawyer up".
I'd ask for them to put in writing what they said. For instance, "based on our conversation last Friday, I understand that is it Acme Company's position that if I do not continue my employment at your organization until xxx date, you will mark in my file that I left the company on unfavorable terms." Can you please confirm in writing that this is your position? I'd also ask that they confirm in writing what date you can leave an be on favorable terms. If this is truly thier policy, then they should be able to put it in writing.
Go see a lawyer.
I had a similar situation with threats. The lawyer letter took care of it in a day. It's usually $100-300, but mine didn't charge me.
I have to wonder if this really just has to do with his ability to be rehired at the company at some future date.. rather than being "bad terms", which would imply some kind of wrongdoing.. The "recommended for rehire" status should not be a given.. and there is nothing wrong with using that as leverage to the companies advantage. It's not exactly blackmail as much as an extra incentive to work on making the transition smoother for the company.. and not really that much of an incentive because to use this "insurance" the company would have to be hiring, and that would still be no guarantee that when they were hiring, that they would not hire someone else that had something they liked better... So you would have to seriously weigh the value of this "status" based upon the amount of times you have seen former employees return.
waiting for ad.doubleclick.net
Call your new company and explain the situation. Ask if they will let you start working for them sooner. Then leave your current employer immediately.
I have a bad feeling about this...
As stated by other commenters, Previous employers are only asked for two things: 1) Length of employment 2) Title when leaving(sure about this) or titles when employed(not sure about this) and that subjective reference is taken from people whom you give as references.These are your friends from your current company. Make sure you at least have one friend before leaving.
the most important thing is to have them keep this on file. so that when ref calls come in, they'll be too SCARED to say a god damned thing. only name/rank/employment date range. nothing else!
you don't want to TRUST them for anything else. so, force this via the letter. they've already shown you they are scumbags. assume they will try to dick you over, so take the upper hand NOW, pay the few hundred (sigh) for a lawyer and pre-empt their threat with your own defensive threat.
this will 100% silence them. they won't want to fark with you if they know you have already gotton a lawyer in advance.
its all it will take. do it.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
I once quit one company to join a competitor for double the salary and much better group of people. The owner of the company I was leaving called the owner of the new company to ask him not to hire me. This freaked out my new boss and puzzled me. At the time I never figured out how I should have reacted to this. I happily moved to the new company but what did my old boss expect; That I would have stayed. If somehow his tactic had worked I would have quit on the spot. My only regret is that I gave the old company 2 weeks notice. Looking back I should have packed my desk and left immediately when they pulled this stunt. So my advice is that you collect as much evidence that your old company is screwing you and leave immediately. Your new employer will be happier to get you early, your old employer is going to screw you anyway and with any good evidence you can always defend yourself. Otherwise you will feel violated and your new employer will know that you are a wimp which is not something that most good employers are looking for. Don't be an ass about it just state that what they did was unethical and made you feel uncomfortable about your staying then leave. Just make sure that this statement is made at least one level above the people strong arming you (this is what CC is for). Otherwise they will be able to blame everything on you. Commonly employees leave trying to score all kinds of petty hits but often they are a source of pure gold information about troubles in your company and higher ups will listen to what is usually rare and refreshing honesty. Good luck
Usually companies are too worried about potential defamation suits to give negative reviews of former employees. Lawyers usually instruct companies to just give the dates you worked and what you were paid. If they lie about you to a potential employer in bad faith they are opening themselves to a defamation suit. Human resources doesn't want that to happen and may therefore have reason to fix things.
Tony Soprano style.. tell him if you are going to leave on bad terms any way there will be serious consequences.. Including (but not limited to) punches in the face, slashed tires, sex with the guys wife...
Don't take no shit from nobody.
Just because you live in an at-will state, doesn't mean you don't have legal protection. They have threatened your future livelihood if you don't agree to their terms. That is certainly outside the bounds of any at-will contract.
You should agree to stay longer on their terms, and then immediately submit a formal complaint to the relevant employment authority in your state, detailing all contacts and conversations regarding this matter.
Of course, they will be indignant and say "you should have just contacted HR first", but you can claim that they created a hostile environment in which you felt you could no longer trust anyone in the company regarding this without having established legal protections for yourself first. Trust me, after their indignation fades, they will cave immediately and then apologize (or at least HR will). HR exists largely to protect the company from liability when management does f***ed up things like this.
I suspect that your manager is threatening you with this because of a project the company wants you to finish. There would be no legal recourse since the manager could word a reference as failing at achieving results or something that is true, but obscuring the truth. I don't know if it is possible in your situation, but a company I worked for had many major ethical issues leaked to the press that convinced the CEO that it was worth her time to provide help. She would willingly answer questions and thank you as well. Try discussing the situation with a higher up in the company. Managers get reviews to. Imagine him getting "threatens and intimidates direct reports" would send a clear message. I would hope companies would smarten up and realize that legal recourse is not the best recourse. When the media wants something to sell and ethical issues always go over well with the public.
Why would you assume the extra time taken would make any difference to how they report your departure. Are they suddenly going to become honest and upright when your departure is a week later?
I have found there is never a "good" time to leave a job, something is always left undone. What do you do when they ask you for yet more time?
This has been learned from many movies, and applies to real life. Kid throws a temper tantrum - you cannot give in as that would be negotiating with terrorists. A LOT of threats are idle. Those that aren't almost always pose more severe consequences for the person doing the threatening. TBH they have just given you a lot of leverage as whoever is doing the threatening must answer to someone. Perhaps it would be prudent to get the contact information of that person and have a little conversation.
The company had made me sign a contract that stated I had to give 3 months' notice. I gave 3 months' notice. They asked me if I could leave more quickly as they did not want me looking at customer records for the next 3 months knowing that I would be leaving. Companies can be morons sometimes. Call the HR team, they are probably going to be more reasonable.
Nullius in verba
Whatever else you do, make sure you give them the passcodes when they ask for them.
I had a manager who did this to me without my knowledge once. Even though I fixed the entire network for him and gave an entire month's notice, he marked my record saying he would not hire me again. When I went looking for a job later I had difficulty because the one thing my former employer was allowed to report to reference seekers was false information. Fortunately for me, that manager had actually been fired for incompetence just after I left so the HR dept was happy to amend my records to show the truth. In your case, if it is the HR dept that is threatening you then get all your records and get them to make the request in writing. Then take that to the authorities. If you already have a job offer, then tell them what is happening and ask if they will let you start a week later. If you don't, then go ahead and work the extra week. Heck, if they want to pay a disgruntled, short-timer to stay in the building for an extra week, that is their problem.
Document your contacts with them on this issue. If in the future, you fail to receive a job from a company that contacts them for a reference sue them. They told you that if you leave after a three week notice, they would black ball you. If you have this well documented, they can't afford to black ball you. Lawsuits are why most companies won't give out any more information on former employees than, "Yes, they worked here. They are eligible/ineligible for rehire," when asked for information about a former employee. If it is well documented they might give out information regarding attendance.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
What do you care about these fuckers! If they are doing this to you now that you are there. What do you think they will do when you are not around.
Let's assume that it was the other way around, that they were laying you off in 2 weeks (which is very rare that they give you even a 2 day notice) would they accept to keep you for another week?
Any group of lawyers will cost $300-500 just to talk to, as they'll have to do a conflict of interest check against their current client base, get the legal papers in line, and start the process. The last time I needed one it ran me about $400. I had hoped my "friend" would take a look at the papers I needed reviewed, but he was too busy and had to pass it to a subordinate to work on. I'm not bitter; I provide the same type of service and know how fast you can blow an hour or two on setup and filing on the smallest job - just that unless you have a lawyer friend in a single office who doesn't care about checking conflicts you'll be in for a bigger bill than $100.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
I brought in a tape recorder once to an interview with a boss and asked them to be on tape. They didn't want to be on tape, but the conversation we had after solved all the problems to my satisfaction. Sometimes it just takes them knowing that you're really serious and not going to allow them bad mouth you if you don't deserve it.
I like what others have said about making sure you have records of your file. This way even if the former employer slags you, you can still show that you're a model employee.
If you were in a court of law, would you be able to testify exactly when and where this happened, and particularly what was said by whom? You may wish to give them another chance to say it, by calling a meeting with the perpetrator and taking explicit written notes, beginning with "I'd like to understand the details behind the statement you made on X date about extending my employment beyond the three weeks' notice I've given in my memo". If they're unwilling to repeat this, it will reveal that they are in fact harassing you, and they know it. Then immediately get your personnel records copied, and after that have a discussion with HR. Be prepared to be escorted out that day. You can always contact your State Labor Department for advice, and employing a lawyer to write a memo is a good idea, especially after you're gone. Recording a conversation without telling someone puts you into a bad legal position in court (although it seems fun, and I've done it).
I'd hate for, you know, their website to go down or the programs you wrote for them to suddenly blow up in their face... ;)
I am not an expert, but I live with one-my wife is an HR director for a mid sized company so I have some basic tips she has taught me over the years
1) Talk to HR, be professional and take any proof you have
2) Be sure to get a copy of your employee record before leaving
3) Cold call your current company and ask for your employment history as new employer
4) Who is trying to blackmail? Most often it is not HR and HR usually takes most employment verifications, so unless it is in your employee record they will have no knowledge of the blackmail attempt
It will be more effective to tell the top lawyer in your current company of what has happened. Write him a short letter with the facts as mentioned above (including the supervisor's name and the date of when the threat was made). Ask nicely if he can help or if he would advise that you hire your own lawyer. Given that he won't want the pain of dealing with a lawsuit, he will be motivated to provide meaningful assistance.
We have experience in helping people like you in situations like these. Charles H. Leverage III CEO www.leverage-inc.com
OK there are legal answers, and practical answers.
Legal
Do you have an employment contract? If so, be very certain that you are complying with the terms. Also, read carefully for any trade secret agreements, confidential information agreements, or non-compete agreements. The extent to which that sort of thing is enforceable, depends on your state's law and whether the agreement is drafted correctly. Assume that your employer has these agreements set up correctly.
Most states hold to employment-at-will, meaning either the company or the employee is free to end the employment relationship at any time, with or without advance notice. Employment at will does not trump an employment contract, but is an important idea where there is no contract.
Also, in many (probably most) states employees have no legal right of access to the company's personnel files, even their "own" file.
As a general matter, there is at least some legal risk if an employer gives a bad reference to someone. BUT - in the face of a jerk,you have to be willing to hire a lawyer and go to the courthouse. You would then have to prove defamation, which is not particularly easy. How do you know what they said? Can you prove it at the courthouse?
Practical
I'd agree that it would be a good idea to have copies of your performance appraisals. Don't monkey with the companies files, but just make a copy of performance appraisals you have been given.
Before talking to HR, remember they are not your best friend. HR exists to serve the company, and respond to management. HR should take the view that managers doing dumb things are bad for the company, but you can't automatically assume they will side with you.
I'd suggest a call or visit to someone in upper management who is friendly. Tell them you are puzzled by the situation, and ask for advice. Be low key.
Sure, you could just walk out the door immediately and never look back. But - the company might decide to mark your file as "not eligible for rehire" because you left without completing your two weeks notice. If potential employer calls old employer for a reference and old employer says, sorry all I can tell you is that his file is marked "not eligible for rehire" - that would be true (not libel or slander) but might cause the potential employer some concern.
Remember, this advice is worth exactly what you paid for it, and I don't know your facts in detail or what state you are in. The fine level details matter a great deal when it comes to legal problems. Just like you could not expect a Dr. to diagnose and treat cancer based on a one paragraph Slashdot posting, you can't get useful legal advice that way either.
1. Use people you've worked with that respect you as a reference, not the manager. Potential employers want to talk to people that really know your work not the political management.
2. Offer to go on contract as a consultant at 1.5x your pay rate.
3. Have attorney send letter to HR, Boss and bosses boss. Cost $100, result, priceless.
That ought to do it.
-- $G
Just tell them you'll be having friends call periodically posing as potential employers. Let them know that if they say anything untoward about you while providing a reference, you'll see them in court.
For bonus points, mention that suing their asses for something as petty as that will likely be more profitable and less work than having whatever job they're trying to torpedo out from under you.
...carry a small pocket audio recorder with you and clandestinely record your conversations with them. In most states, it's perfectly legal to do so as long as one party knows the conversation is being recorded, and that one party is you.
After 7 years leave company giving them only few weeks for rearange IT is for me unethical.
After 1 year I have always feel obliged to give at least 3 months. Sometimes it was possible to work in both, old and new, jobs simultanously.
Your boss is probably now in deep sh..t and bad reference is quite natural from my point of view.
Too late if they have chosen the intimidation route. What evidence to you have that such threats took place. What you should have done and well in advance of any falling-out is to. Keep a full record of your job performance reviews, emails or requests for information etc. Document any evidence of management bullying, tape conversations, phone calls etc. As far as possible, acquire any potentially embarrassing information on the company. Eg, who's incompetence lost a contract, who is paying for 'recreational' nights out on company expenses.
Well before you give your notice, ask for a reference for a 'bank loan'. Give minimal notice. Don't tell your current employer the name of your future employer. If they ask, lie. They have no business in contacting them anyway. Ask for a reference. If they refuse and make threats, then explain that you will have no option but to go before an employment tribunal and produce evidence such as I described above. If they then still refuse to give you a reference produce the 'bank reference' and ask them to explain the discrepancy ...
davecb5620@gmail.com
In all seriousness, this is why you keep copies of your own performance reviews. These are documents signed by both you and your employer showing the above average performance.
Given the above situation, I would respond by walking out the next day in response. Make sure to tell them you have no need of their "recommendation." You have what they believe in writing. Although, an above poster had a good idea of working out those weeks at higher pay. See how much they actually value you.
I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.
First, you don't get a reference from a former employer. You get a reference from the PEOPLE YOU WORKED WITH at a former employer. Employers will rarely ever say anything other than "we verify that so-and-so was employed here from this month of this year to that month of that year, and it's our policy not to disclose anything further."
When you've given your notice at any job, go to one or more people there - it can be your manager, coworkers, even subordinates, just pick people you have a good working relationship with who you think will want to help you - and ask them very nicely if they would be so kind as to give you a "letter of reference". Explain nicely that you know people change jobs over time and you'd like the letter so that you'll always have their reference and so they won't have to be bothered with many phone calls about it. No one I have ever asked for a letter of reference has ever said no after I explained why. Some were concerned about giving me a reference on behalf of the company... I told them that I wasn't asking for a reference on behalf of the company, I was asking for a reference on behalf of them personally, and it didn't need to be on letterhead. They then agreed.
Once you've got the letter (or preferably letters), you can include it with your resume when you submit it for jobs, or send it when they ask for references. It's a little old-fashioned, but it often impresses potential employers and makes you stand out.
Now, after you've got the letter (and get it HOME), you don't need that employer who is giving you a hard time any more, and they don't have anything to hold over your head. So:
1) Explain bluntly to HR that you are fully aware that you've had stellar performance reviews and that you have given them the normal amount of notice that anyone in any industry gives, that it is inappropriate for them to be threatening you to demand more, and that if they ever give you a bad reference, you will sue them into the ground for defaming you and harming your career.
2) Leave at the end of your two weeks notice.
3) If they give you any further hard time about it, write a polite note to your manager at the company you're leaving, explaining that you're terribly sorry and really wanted to finish your two weeks but due to their hostility you feel this is no longer possible and that you consequently resign immediately. Give it to your manager, be apologetic, and leave. Take the rest of your two weeks off, then start your new job.
4) If you feel they'll be okay about it, you could call the new job, tell them the old job decided to let you go early, and ask them if they'd like you to start right away. Likely, they'll be happy.
Anyway, get that letter, or preferably several, and then you have nothing to worry about.
And you need a lawyer right now.
IANAL, but if I understand this correctly, what they are doing is literally extortion and is a felony in most states. And you can recover damages in a suit.
Dog is my co-pilot.
or he's very politically connected (which is unlikely if he's stupid enough to try a move like this).
The large majority of the most successful people I've seen in the corporate world are stupid, egotistical, loud-mouthed bullies who live their lives without an ounce of introspection or regret. Mostly due to the complete and total lack of repercussions they receive for being so.
You send out that email and he'll probably get a promotion.
I don't understand it either - but I've seen things go that way often enough to understand that that's the way it works.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
While I concur with the consensus advice that you have the legal and moral high ground, what is your employer's perspective that would trigger their response? Is there a high-profile project that will not be finished on time or in budget if you leave? Is there a cost (budget, personnel, prestige) to him if you leave early? Did you make any representations - even if they're unenforceable - about your commitment to staying?
This is not to blame the victim, but we need to see both sides. It may be the best resolution is one that tries to achieve both your objectives (getting a new job) and your current boss's. Maybe having a private, frank conversation with a cool, professional tone will not only prevent a bad reference, but create one that's even more positive.
Actually, the best reference I got from a former employer started out as sounding negative:
New company HR: "What was geobeck like as an employee?"
Former supervisor: "He was lazy."
New company HR: "Um... really?"
Former supervisor: "Oh yeah, definitely. If he had an inefficient process he had to do over and over again, he'd do everything he could to make it more efficient so he wouldn't have to do as much work."
Find environmentally and socially responsible products on http://buy-right.net
Oh, and I should explain what the letter is, sometimes people have never seen one and don't know what to put in it. A typical letter of reference would say something like:
To whom it may concern,
I have been Jane Smith's manager at Spaceley Sprockets from Juiy 2057 through September 2063, where she was initially employed as a Sprocket Tooth Tester and later promoted to Senior Sprocket Engineer.
During this time, Ms. Smith's performance has been consistently excellent and she has received consistently positive performance reviews. She has been a pleasure to work with and manage, and I would not hesitate to hire her again. I am confident she will be an asset to any employer.
Regards,
John Doe.
I had a very similar position two years ago when I was leaving the company. Instead of staying on I offered to work at time and a half of what we paid our contractors.
This made it worthwhile for me to work the extra hours, and allowed them the flexibility of having me around if they needed me. Most importantly the high fee kept them from abusing my time.
I should also note that most companies allow you to specify who your references are - so you can always use a a coworker instead of your superior.
Good luck! Just remember to remain professional on your end no matter what you do. Don't get angry or burn bridges.
I would approach your HR group and ask about code of conduct and business ethics policies. I would also ask about what constitutes a "hostile" work environment and see if this "threat" falls into that category. I would also make it clear to HR that you feel your work environment has become too hostile for you to work your last three weeks. What you do from there would depend on their actions. That's what I would do.
write a letter to the CEO of the company on the company's own letterhead. Make it a WRITTEN letter.
Ensure it's in the company's own stationary. Mail it to the company from your home.
Explain the situation. Tell the CEO that you don't believe your decision is subject to your supervisor's approval.
Also explain the complete lack of ethics your supervisor has shown. 3 Things could happen, a) the ceo will call your boss 'on the carpet', b) your ceo will pay you more money or fire your boss, or c) the CEO will ignore your letter and ask you to leave immediately.
I don't see how any of those is a bad deal.
They're using their grammar skills there.
I've never been good at them. I know I do what is right by myself and by those I work for. If they don't like it, they can go have intercourse with themselves.
I'm a hiring manager. I never ask a former employer company to give a reference for someone. All of the references come from people that are supplied by the prospective employee or from my own network. If you have been a great contributor at your company then there are plenty of colleagues who will vouch for your time there, whether or not some weenie manager says you are leaving on 'bad terms'. Just don't use that one bad manager as a reference.
IANAL: but i would definitely check with a lawyer before recording conversations without letting the other person know.
Have a friend in a single party recording state call them up pretending to be a hiring manager and ask them about you. Record this and if they bad mouth you sue them for everything they have.
I live in Texas and here the only things that an employer would be LEGALLY able to divulge is the date of hire/date left company, pay (with your permission ONLY) and "eligible for rehire". Unfortunately there is nothing you can do about the "eligible for rehire" portion except go to HR and ensure that they are protecting your rights as an employee. You are not hurting anyone by going to HR, as you are leaving the organization anyway and it is probably best that their HR group are aware that their management is doing this. If they were to give you a "bad recommendation", they would be breaking the law and would be subject to civil suit for defamation. The problem here is trying to prove it. It is not likely that a prospective employer would tell you that you received a bad recommendation and even if they did, you would likely need this information in writing. I would have to recommend either going to your HR department, stay longer or put in your two weeks' notice and leave. On subsequent applications, state on your "reason for leaving" the information that when you gave notice you were threatened with penalties if you would not extend your employment. Good luck!
Do not under any circumstances go out like a bitch. You have done good work and been reasonably loyal to your employer. And now, you're being threatened in such a way that it brings your professional competence into doubt. Sorry, but you've worked too hard to stand for this. As many have suggested, you should go to HR. Describe the threat that was made and make a display of being fairly distraught about the whole thing. Explain why this is unfair and explain that it puts you in an uncomfortable position. Make mention of the word lawsuit. Not reporting the matter...or worse, acquiescing to their demand, is NOT an option. Corporations do the sorts of things that they are doing to you because of a belief they can get away with it. As the Dunning-Kruger effect proves, stupid people never realize just how stupid they are acting. If they weren't stupid, they'd behave in a way that was remotely intelligent. You're smart. Take a stance against this stupidity. Future employers should talk to HR and become aware that not only did you do outstanding work in your time there, but in your final days, your boss resorted to using extortive tactics to get what he/she wanted, and you refused to give in. That might be a better endorsement of your character than anything your sleazy boss(es) could every say about you.
but you should notify the EEOC when they give you a bad reference. Usually all they should give is name, rank, and serial number, how long you worked there. If they give you a bad review they are in violation of employment law. Esp if you did nothing wrong.
Now note they can just start documenting stuff that didn't happen to try and prove you are a bad employee, they did that with me. Lost doctor's notes to make my sick days look like days I just didn't show up to work, deleted their PBX system calls I made calling in the sick day so it would not show up.
Your best bet is to document everything they say to so, maybe get it voice recorded on a tape player or voice recorder system. Then present it to the EEOC as evidence they are trying to blackmail you. You might have a case against your former employer if they give a bad review.
Some companies don't care if an employer gives a bad review, they know that sometimes employers give bad reviews because they don't want their ex-employee working for their competition. But if all gets worse you can always work as a contractor or start up your own business.
Me, it made me so sick that I ended up on disability because of the stress and discrimination my former employers had against me. But after 180 days ran out I no longer had the right to sue after the job was over. I was sick those 180 days and didn't know any better.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
Best advice. Period.
Even if you stay the extra time you can never use that manager for a reference since he/she is dishonest and will likely bad mouth you anyway.
That means do what you want about your length of stay but cover yourself with HR so that manager can't put something false and negative in your record that will pop-up if other companies call your HR dept. As everyone else says get your own copy of your record as well.
Don't be vindictive, lazy/not work your last days or gut a fish at work - that could easily come back and bite you since you'll run into your other co-workers again elsewhere. Plus it just the wrong way to act.
Do not worry at all about this. Your 'previous' employer is bound by laws to give only certain and specific information about you just as future employers are only allowed to ask certain questions. If they dare make false accusations about you, they are screwed, they know this, and their blackmail tactic has no teeth. Some of the information they can give is about: tardiness, performance, professional conduct (if negative, documented), was 2 week notice given, etc. If a company does receive 'bad information about you, you can request a copy and go straight to your lawyer.
I worked once for a national-chain retail computer store, as their lead technician in the tech shop at one of the stores. This chain had a knee-jerk reaction to slow sales: lay off whoever is making the most money.
Never mind that it is an asinine strategy... it actually does work for positions like cashier, because they can always grab another person off the street, give them a day of training, and voila... a new cashier. Trying to tell them this strategy does NOT work with educated & certified techs fell on deaf ears.
So, guess what? We had a slow couple of months. And I made the most money in my department. So I was called in one day to the manager's office, where I was read a list of completely bogus complaints from other store managers: not just exaggerations but things that never actually happened. I was told these complaints were going in my employee file and that if I wanted to stay on with the store, I would have to take a $6/hr. pay cut.
I was furious. By law in my state, I have the right to examine and reply to anything that is in my employee records. So I went home with a copy of these "complaints", and wrote up a detailed and carefully worded reply, including solid evidence that 2 out of the 3 complaints were completely false, and casting doubt on the 3rd. It was false too... I just did not have much evidence to back up my side of the story.
I took this in to the manager's office, and demanded that my reply be put into my employee file. He told me okay (as he had to, under law). But... I got access to my file a month or so later, and my reply was not in the file. It had "mysteriously disappeared".
A week or so later, we had a visit from the corporate HR person. Very nice lady. Always "on our side", etc. After the formal meeting I went to her with my story, told her that I had a copy of my reply to the complaints, and I would like to make sure it got in my file. She told me to give her the copy, and she would see to it personally.
Yeah, right. Of course it never made it in there.
I quit not long after that, for a better job. But I learned: don't rely on HR. They can be slaves to the people who pay their checks... it is a position that is very close to having a built-in conflict of interest. No doubt some are legitimate, but don't count on it.
Just as an aside: after I left, that manager was caught embezzling. He had created fake employees and was somehow managing to put their paychecks in his own bank account(s).
I would contact HR immediately. As I've seen posted, HR exists to protect the company, not your or your manager. They will usually cover the manager in a situation such as this, UP TO A POINT, but they will always cover the company. By contacting HR proactively, you are leveling the playing field and putting the company on notice that you don't intend to accept this blackmail. I would also request a copy of your personnel file, or download it if you are a large enough organization where it's kept online and you can immediately get access to it. Although I'm confident they would never give you a bad reference for fear of legal repercussions, you can verify this by having a friend call up after you have left and asking for a reference. I had to do this at a company where I experienced a similarly combative parting also due to an incompetent manager (the worst in a 25 year successful career). Finally, be aware that the one thing your manager CAN do is flag you as "not eligible for rehire" which will bar you from ever returning to that company unless you get HR involved asap and call your managers bluff.
But I agree with one poster suggesting you contact a lawyer.
If you cannot afford one or you just plain "don't want to"
What you can do is conceal an mp3 player with recording capabilities on it and engage in a one on one conversation with that person.
Go home, duplicate it onto a CD or download it and retain the player. Print out the pertinent state laws on giving notice (if any) and providing replies (whatever they may be).
Go to the person and give them those and then play the recording.
If they give you a hard time after that they're of questionable intelligence.
"everything you know is wrong", Crowley and yes I know he was a drug addled wacko, but it is still a catchy quote
I see this with people all the time. They have this bizarre idea in their heads that they have to give 2 weeks notice. Some companies require you to agree to the notice when you start but most won't really care if you don't.
There are really only 2 things that a prospective employer is going to ask a previous employer.
1)Did they work there and under what dates?
2)would you rehire them or are you eligible for rehire?
Aside from that, your former company can be sued for all sorts of things if they expand on your employment in a negative light. Keeping you from earning a living. Defamation of Character. etc etc.
Unless you really care about the answer of 'are you rehirable' to be a yes, why even give 2 weeks notice aside from being nice?
Unless you're with a very small company and your boss is also HR, chances are the background checkers are never even talking to your boss. They're getting the info a smart HR knows is all they're allowed to give out to limit liability.
My last question is, didn't you say you've already GOT the new job? As in, you've accepted an offer and will be starting on date x? If that's the case, your current company has nothing on you. I'd walk to HR, let them know what your boss said and go home. It's not like the new company is going to rescind the offer after making it.
You just need to "imply" that if there's any problem with references in the future, causing you to become unemployable, you'll feel you have no reason not to go on a shooting spree with your former manager as target #1.
I presume you want to "do the smart thing" by ensuring you will have good references.
However, were they laying you off, would they extend just because you threatened to say bad things about them? Hell no! They would fire you immediately and lawyer up. Look, at the end of the day you got to live with yourself. I would not stand for this. If he is going to try and strong arm you, then f*ck 'em. Leave immediately.
In the future, don't give notice until you've been offered the new position. It avoids all sorts of problems, including your boss firing you on the spot for looking, OR pulling this kind of shit.
AND save up sufficient "go to hell" money.
Most of my references are team mates that I have learned to value and trust (read friends). Same with managers, the one who are worth being my reference wouldn't pull stuff like this anyway. The one's pulling stuff like this won't be my references.
I refused to work on the 6th straight weekend when i made 2000$ in bonus the previous week. Bonus was for about 20 weekends on nice summer days (bitches). I was warned, I still refused. 3 days later they had no position for me. That single experience taught me I am an asset, not a person. I should have sued for overtime, but I landed an excellent opportunity in under a week, through references at the same company.
Point is, your references are your trusted team members, those who you could count on during the project, who have come to know you more than an asset and respect you.
I had an employer that told me I could not leave, that I "owed" them. Not sure for what. So I arranged to work as a consultant for some time post employment. I determined a fair rate based on my pay and loss of benefits (i.e. health insurance) and didn't even take into account yearly bonuses. They came back with a contract rate less then my base pay. From there, it was not hard to say fuck you.
Your implier would be stupid to follow through, but if you think he might, try this.
Get your records from HR.
Get lawyer. Have lawyer contact police.
Quit on time, not giving in to the extortion. (It's extortion BTW, not blackmail. Blackmail implies that the jerk's revelations would be substantially true.)
Setup sting with police. Police will contact the jerk for recommendation. Jerk follows through with threat. Police arrest jerk. Publicize the drama to discourage other jerks from trying it.
You made a mortal enemy. Congratulations. Not many people can say that.
A company that I left (because I was fed-up with the management) wanted to temporarily get me to consult on a project as a contractor that we hadn't finished yet. Since I had a new day job already, and I didn't really trust them to pay me in a timely manner (since they had stiffed other contractors when I was working there) and I didn't really need the money, I decided to work for barter.
Basically, the arraingment was that after work, I went back to the old company for an hour or two to consult on this project. After those couple of hours, I got to take my ex-coworkers out for a nice dinner on the company (the current employees had to pay and get expense reimbursed for the company and I'm pretty sure they didn't stiff their employees as that would piss them off).
With this scheme, I didn't get a 1099 (no self employment/income tax), got to take my ex-coworkers out for nice dinners every day I consulted on the company dime. Probably cost the company about $200/hour for my time. If later on, I needed a recommendation, I'm pretty I could have coaxed a good recommendation from my ex-coworkers even though the managment wasn't too happy with me for leaving and taking a new job...
Unless you signed a contract that states that you must give two + weeks notice you are under no legal obligation to give any notice. The same holds true for themâ¦they can fire you at will. Given that you feel the boss is implying this I would, as others suggested, clarify thisâ¦.preferably in writing. If you donâ(TM)t trust this boss donâ(TM)t use this person as a reference. Use co-workers, other supervisors etc., or ask to use them as a reference but have someone you know act as a perspective employer and see what they say about you. Now look at your employee manual. Is there a company policy that states that you will not receive unpaid vacation, or cannot re-hire at the company if you do not give two weeks notice. If neither of these things are stated then you are dealing with grey areas. I saw one place that explicitly asks for two weeks notice but will not pay out unused vacation upon termination from the company. With that place I would not give two weeks unless I felt it was going to benefit my reputation, or if I wanted to possibly re-join this organization down the road. If neither of these were at stake and I felt it was a hostile work environment that would be a situation where I would give no notice. Now, on the other hand if you are in a situation where you have unused vacation, would like to be able to re-hire into the company or feel that it would benefit your reputation with other co-workers then I would follow the steps outlined in the employee manual to the tee with the notice period. In your case you are giving ample notice. If your boss confirms that this is a threat I would go to HR. The way that I would approach the conversation would be to say that you have tendered your resignation, your intent is to be fair to them and your new employer. In writing offer to provide them with a transition that would stand up in court as reasonable based on case law. Share the details about the conversation between your boss and you and express your concerns about this boss taking retaliatory (use that exact verbage) action against you. Follow up the conversation with written communication and document everything. An HR department worth their salt will see one thingâ¦â¦potential lawsuit. They will have a conversation with your (soon to be ex) boss to ensure that you have a smooth transition, that you receive any owed benefits upon leaving the company and that you will get paid for the remaining two weeksâ¦even if they ask you to leave that day. If they donâ(TM)t, then you definitely have enough of a case to file a complaint with your department of labor and file a small claims case. How far you want to take it is up to you, but that is what I would do.
The average manager at a large software company has no ability to blackmail you.
From my experience as a contractor - manager references are also highly overrated. You should be able to get references from other sources (such as former coworkers and the coworkers at your new job).
If this really bothers you and you don't need the money I suggest leaving the company earlier. Life is too short to get pushed around. Alternatively - if they bring it up again just say you probably won't give them a good reference either. They'll probably say something like "heh - I don't need a reference from you". Then you say, "ok, sounds like we're even".
My one year old just got 6 stitches in the ER after he fell and split his lip open. The ER bill was $5000, that does not include the bill from the attending doc.. I hope you do not ever have an accident or get sick.
you should have blackmailed him.
Ugh. Sue them. Most companies will not fuck around with you once they've received a summons. It's not worth the large amount of money that a defence lawyer costs for such a case. Say nothing. If anyone asks why you aren't talking about it, tell them that your lawyer advised against it. Scare the shit out of them. Begin taking a recorder to work. Copy the email records. See a lawyer who's willing to prosecute for a percentage. This kind of abusive crap must end.
Ok, not much use this time, but for the future:
Get those letters regularily. Like whenever you take up a new position within the company. When you have three favourable letters, and the one when you left looks very different, your next employer should realize that there was something fishy going on.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Just to take a stab in the dark, the company isn't Reynolds and Reynolds is it?
I provide the same type of service and know how fast you can blow an hour or two
I'm pretty sure that it would take an hour or two to blow an hour or two. If you can do this faster, I know a company that could use your skills....
You worked at this place for seven years, and are only giving them three weeks to deal with your impending departure? You're being unfair to them. If you were a valuable employee, then it will take more than three weeks to properly wrap up your position and move your responsibilities to other people, much less replace you.
Don't forget that you are leaving behind human beings who will have to take over what you've been doing for seven years. By sticking it to these people with only three weeks notice, you *are* leaving on bad terms, and they'd be remiss not to mention it to people calling for references about other positions you may want to hold for a few years before bailing with little notice.
If this is their attitude, submit a new letter of resignation giving them 2 weeks from the time of the original letter.
All the company is going to do if called by a prospective employer is verify employment dates. They will not provide you with either a good or bad reference or open up your employment file. To do so risks lawsuits. If they give a bad reference, you will sue them. If they give a good reference and you don't work out with the new employer, your new employer will sue them.
If they are going to be dicks, leave sooner so you don't have to spend any more time there than needed.
What they are doing is called blackmail, and it is also an attempt to enslave you. Yeah, being forced to work for someone against your will is *slavery*.
Grab every bit of documentation you have and take it to a *lawyer*.
You do not want to talk to HR until you get a lawyer. You want your lawyer with you from now on every time you talk to any one in management.
Why are engineers and scientists such cowards? If a manager tried that tactic on a lawyer or an MBA they would *own* the company in a couple of weeks.
Get a Lawyer.
I am not a lawyer, but I have learned when to call one.
Stonewolf
It is illegal in most states to record without permission of both parties. If you want to do this see a lawyer first. I left my former job with 3 days notice. They cut it back to two days, because I had nothing left to do, after handing over my work. They paid me for the extra day. I started work on the next Monday at my new job.
Never trust a man wearing a coat and tie!
if they want you to stay longer, it's because they need or want you. You have the advantage.
So, if they say "Stay four weeks instead of three, or we'll give you a bad rap", counter with "How about one week instead of three?"
Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
I would tell your HR that since they are going to list you as having left under unfavorable conditions you might as well not give them any notice. You will leave today unless you get a signed letter of recommendation, in which case you will give them the three weeks you had offered.
References can legally only confirm whether or not you were employed there. Said another way for emphasis, they legally can't bad-mouth (or good-mouth) you to a prospective employer.
I really don't get how everyone is so concerned about their resume and references. Do your skills not speak for themselves? If not, you're in the wrong career...
Should have contacted the cops instead of legal, no? That should be a crime...
The nice way would've been for them to admit your leaving so soon will cause them problems, they need more time if you can please...your boss has completely mishandled a valuable neh critical business asset. You, on the other hand, might give your boss another chance. What's at stake is your severance package, which can be quite generous or nothing at all depending on company policy or how generous the company feels, who signs the check, and their feelings about your stay and departure. 1. It is ILLEGAL for a company to say anything negative about a former employee; they may only say no comment, something positive, or nothing at all. Many companies have a no references policy. 2. Get letters of reference from whom you can inside the company.
You should have sued. You definitely have legal recourse. Not sure why you would think otherwise.
Just because the HR dept is only going to reveal employment dates, salary, and "eligible for rehire" (which usually gives all the information you need, anyhow), doesn't mean the hiring manager can't get an unofficial review.
In fact, my wife was trying to fill an open headcount on her team, and they had some applicants from a local firm that just had a large round of layoffs. Many good people were laid off, so it was a great opportunity.
There was one particular guy who interviewed well, but my wife happens to know some folks at this other firm. So she made a few calls to see if anyone was familiar with her candidate. Turns out they were, and this candidate was not part of the layoffs at all as he claimed to be. He was fired for cause, and for some very good reasons. All of this communication, of course, was off the record.
Naturally, my wife simply rejected the candidate without explanation. He'll never know he was not hired due to multiple damaging reviews from his former colleagues.
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
Does this apply in your legal code? If so, you could sue. IANAL
That's the one that can be damaging.
Q: "Is John Smith eligible for rehire at Company X?"
A: "No."
That's all the information you need, and it cannot be considered defamatory, as the truth is an absolute defense against a defamation claim.
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
Most gaining companies don't expect to get a new hire within two-weeks. At my work (software), we extend offers and people often don't start for MONTHS later, due to current job requirements.
Seriously, what is the harm in waiting one more week to start with the new company? It really DOES say a lot about you to leave your current company, even if it is an "at will" state.
My read of the situation is that your current boss is just messing with your head. He wants to hurt you by upsetting your relationship with your next employer--by having you start there later than you originally planned. Do not allow this to happen.
I don't know why some people act so childish and bitter, but they can and they do. Leave at your appointed time or earlier, spend a year working diligently at your new employer and that will become your best reference. Your old boss will no longer be part of your life and you will be very, very happy about that.
Your resume lists your employer not your boss. Just don't list him as a reference and that's the end of it.
These days prospective employers are more likely to weigh things like personality tests and credit scores. It's almost unheard of for anyone to call up an employer and ask to talk to your old boss.
You'll be fine, don't stress about it.
"they say bad things. "Doesn't follow through", "lack of focus", "wouldn't show up"" ... Hey bro, that's legally actionable! Get `em! Or keep taking it up the anus, your choice.
If I had a employer tell me that I would walk out the door that very second.
Got Code?
I have been considering creating a front company that can be hired to contact former employers for employment verification, we would record the call and provide the information about what was said directly to the former employee of said company and if anything other than dates of employment, position held and salary range was disclosed, especially derogatory information provide witness and documentation in court against the former employeer.
Basically a company that exists to help former employees sue their former employer should negative career affecting information be exchanged.
Burn the bridge completely. Publish. Send to everyone. Deny the company profits - put it out of business by word of mouth.
You obviously have little to lose, and if you do it anonymously, there's little recourse the company can take.
Tor, an anonymous remailer, and a free blog somewhere is all you need.
Or, if you want to just get back at them, call the BSA on them. What are the chances that they don't have unlicenced software? Plus, you could get a reward, supposedly.
Get to it. It's better than murder.
I live in an 'at-will' employment state, so I know that they have no legal recourse to keep me. I am concerned about the references they could give in the future
Just forget about it. You can get references from the co-workers who you are still on good terms with. If your boss is the one causing the problems, I assume that in 7 years, you had at least one other boss or supervisor that you can use as a reference.
No Sigs!
You owe you your company the same level of commitment that they would show to you. So if you were being laid off how much time would your company give you? You owe them the same amount of notice in my book.
Sure you have recourse. Either involve a lawyer with a strongly worded letter or a local newspaper reporter... Buy 1 share and show up at the shareholders meeting handing out leaflets...
Hardball works BOTH ways.
... because, from personal experience:
- HR departments will not help you (I complained about the astounding bullying of a female colleague my our manager - nothing was done)
- Lawyers will not help you without it costing you (I was dicked out of considerable money by a client and it would have cost MORE to get the money back via lawyers than I was owed)
Just stick out the two weeks and then leave, as per the company policy. Don't leave a bit later out of goodwill, or fear, just stick to the rules as specified by your company.
I've been bad mouthed AND given good recommendations by past employers (and girlfriends...) and there's f**k all you can do about either, except note that most people who want ot bad mouth you will already be well known for being dicks and no one will listen to them (that's what happened to me ...)
I am truly sorry to hear this. It sucks and there is nothing good about your situation at the moment. Frankly, i can appreciate how you'd get that jaded through going through that.
the situation i've come through is better tahn yours, but even so I've come to have a really cynical attitude towards management due to how shabbily they've treated workers in downsizing in the current recession (manipulating redundancies to be sackings so they don't have to pay out redundancy for the workers).
Having a wife and kids, when you have money running out is not a good place to be. Given you posted as an anonymous coward (as I did), you may not be notified of this reply, but know that I'll be praying for you and your family.
I see lots of malicious comments here.
Rule 1 of Professional Survival: Never burn your bridges.
Everybody knows everybody in this day and age, and if you make somebody look stupid or get them in trouble, odds are they will cross paths with you sometime in the future and kick you in the cojones for it.
A couple other suggestions:
Get your ducks in a row before giving notice - Get your personal stuff out of the office, gather your contacts/email/phone lists, and remove any property that's yours but might be debated beforehand. Work on the premise that the day you give notice, you will get walked out the front door under supervision.
Worry about the future, not the past - Get the new job, give notice and get out. All the suggestions here about contracting for the old place and similar are utter nonsense. A couple weeks of extra money don't mean anything when you are going to spend the next several years working for the new place. Give priority to that.
HR departments are actually pretty powerless - For the most part HR answers to management, and if your boss wants to make life tough for you, that's whats going to happen. No matter what gets said, the back room policy is the reality, not whats on the front door. Sorry! I have been in jobs where the manager did not want to lose me and blocked me from internal transfers. I was locked in and had to quit the place in order to move on. (HR stated: We have an open transfer policy for employees..... blah, blah, bs...)
You get the idea. In extreme cases, you can get a labor attorney to help with certain issues, (but don't expect to survive in the place after that) but the reality of the matter is a little different. If you are in conflict with those above you, its time to "Hit the Road Jack...."
One of the reasons I work as a contractor is because it keeps you out of office politics.
www.effectiveelectrons.com "chips that work" Analog, RF, Mixed Signal
I can't tell you how many times I wished I had taken that advice. You can't expect anybody to do the right thing anymore. Having a lawyer represent you is just common sense now days.
Ask for your reference letter and say that you need it by tomorrow. The fewer days you have left at this company, the less leverage you have. As long as management still depends on you to do some more work, they will be hesitant to seriously piss you off. You also should now that in most countries, making wrongful allegations in a reference letter is illegal and you can sue an employer over this. Therefore if there is a record or any proof of good past performance, you should get hold of it. Good luck!
... you aren't really depending on the company to provide your references.
It seems to me that what they're trying to pull is something like a counteroffer which most people will say accepting such an offer is always a bad deal for you. If you accept it, you'll always be suspect to the company and the next time you forget to turn in your TPS report with the new cover sheet, you'll get fired for cause.
The company -- unless they're dumber than a bag of bolts and willing to get sued -- will only be verifying your employment dates, your salary, and possibly, whether you're eligible for reemployment. The people you provide as references will be speaking to your skills, ability to work in a team environment, and other touchy-feely things. I can't see how the HR department's threat to put a black mark on your record would necessarily kill a future job. It's possible that your personal references may out-weigh the comment that HR makes. Especially, if your former boss is one of your references. You will, of course, want to slip in the fact that you gave more than the customary notice.
BTW, sorry to hear about your predicament. I guess this sort of shenanigans is to be expected what with the job market the way it is nowadays.
Good luck...
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
After seven years at a company, you must almost certainly have made plenty of friends there. Sounds to me like just one guy is being a dick.
Can't the reference simply be directed to a particular person within the company - someone with a higher opinion of you? Obviously, you've probably got to pick someone more senior than yourself, but where I work, if I'd fallen out with the CEO, there would be two or three senior project managers who I could direct the reference to instead.
Just give them a call informally to mention the situation you've been put in, and ask them not to mention the reference to the problem guy. This seems a much simpler option than escalating the situation further than it needs to be.
Most people are offering advice, but I have a question:
What kind of manager would want to have an employee who is there *only* because they were *coerced* by threats?
Are they stupid or fricking insane?
It's been a long, long, time since I heard about this but I think there are outfits that will do this for you and report back what your former employers are saying. Smart employers aren't going to do much more than verify your dates of employment and salary. Some companies, in order to shield themselves from the random doofus that gets all chatty during one of these inquiries, have outsourced the employment verification function to a third party. Smaller companies are probably not doing this so you're more apt to get one of the chatty idiots. If your work history includes a lot of small companies, you might want to look into the third-party checkers. I'm guessing they do this for a fee, though.
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
They want to imply that they will mark you as leaving on bad terms? Fine, imply right back to them that you're in a position to arrange for all sorts of nasty shit to happen after you're gone should they do so
Single male, are you? Probably fairly young? Healthy enough, I bet.
Have a family, where there are annual visits for the wife and unbelievable numbers of well-child visits for young children. I believe a newborn in MN is expected to have visits at 1, 2, 4, 6, 12, 15, 18 and 24 months with between one and four shots per visit. Want a hint how much a visit costs? Somewhere betwee $200-$600, depending on what shots are called for. My company's insurance only covers $700 of well patient visit benefits a year so we deferred a lot of shots on our youngest until after 1/1/09. That's after approximately $25000 of total bills for the birth.
There's a time in life where people can stoutly sock away their money and claim that insurance is a scam, but there's a time in most lives when that's just foolish. It comes a lot sooner than you think, so don't be too big an ass is your fun, cheap youth lest you find yourself looking foolish at 30.
I don't know about the software company part, as I am not much of a believer in such businesses (YEA! VIVA LA GNU!!!)
But it is common in many companies/organizations when the members are being bullied if they switch boat or step on two boats simultaneously.
Personally, I'm not worried about the recommendation part, from what I've seen and experience, negative recommendation could get one hired; while positive recommendation could get one denied. In the end, it is up to your skill and fruit that count.
If your lawyer won't write a letter on his letterhead for $100, get another lawyer.
If this is a corporate deal, there is NO WAY they are going to say anything else than what HR tells them to. Just as long as you pass the screening and drug tests, you pass on your own merits. Since you have the new job in the bag, you already have nothing to worry about. If you haven't cleared the checks, then yes you should keep your nose clean until you have the offer in writing.
Rather than just handing it to someone who will never properly file it, by using the fine services of the USPS, you can mail your response letter to the HR department, and with a return receipt you can obtain court-friendly evidence of your letter being received.
You know... Just in case you REALLY wanted to bust stones.
Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
"High road". You told them three weeks. Stick to it. It's much better to say, "I gave three weeks notice when I was required to give two and they are giving me a bad reference because they wanted four. I stuck to the three that I initially told them as I had already made a commitment to another company." You stuck it out for seven years. You can handle three weeks.
People give references, not, in general, companies... Give the new employer the names of non-crazy people you worked with.
The most a company would likely ever give out officially would be an acknowledgment that you worked there at a certain time. There would be all kinds of legal consequences to them bad mouthing you.
If your new employer is ok with it, offer to consult with them freelance after you leave for a decent rate. Else, forget 'em.
In general, when merely verifying employment, someone will call your previous employer's HR department and ask "Did Joey Ramone work there?" and the HR person will say "Yes, his employment was from November 2001 to February 2009," or whatever.
My understanding is that's all they're allowed to say by law, but even if I'm wrong, corporations aren't stupid about CYA -- they'd rather just give a bland fact like the above and leave it at that, so they don't position themselves on the receiving end of libel or slander suits. And at any rate, the HR drone answering the question probably has no idea who you are or why you left, nor cares. He or she will check your employment date and termination date, verify it to whoever is asking, and leave it at that.
Your references are altogether different; you get to hand-pick those. So whoever is "implying" that they'd bad-mouth you about this, just don't list them as a reference -- then nobody will call them and they'll never get a chance to carry out their threat.
Remember, nobody at your new company knows anyone at your old company. Just list a few co-workers or immediate managers with whom you've worked closely. They'll be in a position to say "Oh yeah, I worked with Joey Ramone for three years, great programmer, very professional."
If it's all "a little more complicated than that" (it usually is), consider emailing the person: "I want to reiterate that I'd prefer my last day to be X, three weeks from now, and asking me to extend this date is not something I believe I can accomodate. Can we work something out?" Wait for the reply -- it'll probably be a rehash of the same veiled threat. Now you have something in writing showing that you gave ample time, were shot down, and you can bring it up with your Legal department, who is likely to take a pretty dim view of anyone placing the company at risk of litigation.
mirrorshades radio -- darkwave, industrial, futurepop, ebm.
Disclaimor: IANAL....
Discmaimer: IDKHTSD...
"I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
I've been fired for that before. All hail the status-quo? No!
__
New company HR: "What was geobeck like as an employee?"
Former supervisor: "He was lazy."
New company HR: "Um... really?"
Former supervisor: "Oh yeah, definitely. If he had an inefficient process he had to do over and over again, he'd do everything he could to make it more efficient so he wouldn't have to do as much work."
Embezzlement is a *CRIME*. Crimes should be reported to the police and not to the company's HR or Legal departments. As others have said you should talk to the SEC or DA. I'm sure they'll be only too happy to deal with it for you (unless they're in on it too and I doubt it for a piddly little sum like $20,000.
Also I'd suggest getting a lawyer and explaining you figure that your former employer is giving you bad references which is illegal in most places to do more than confirm employment dates and pay rate. I'm sure if they are bad mouthing you as badly as you suspect they will more then likely be able to get an investigator to prove it by calling them up and asking them for references for some bogus company and position that you'd typically apply for. People can win big $$$ if it can be proven so the lawyer might work on retainer taking like 10-20% of the take if they think it might be an open and shut case.
09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0
+2 Troll is Slashdot's way of saying groupthink is confused
I worked for a company like that once. It had a 1-week notice period so it didn't have to wait to get rid of people.
That tells you something about the company.
So when I gave in my notice, they dropped a new project on my desk and told me to have it completed by the end of the week. Basically they were angry that I dared to leave them when they refused to give me a raise they promised me.
I completed the project in one week and left on Friday, thinking pulling off a design project (encrypted pin-pad that ran of scavenged power from a serial port) in my last week would leave me in good standing.
Two months later, they were still unable to find a replacement to do the next project and asked me to come in on a weekend and help them out.
They even got my friends who worked there to make the call.
I asked my friends to get me an invoice number. (Why? So I can bill them....)
My friends called back that night and said the manager was furious. He expected me to do it for free (ie, if I didn't ask, he didn't have to pay was his attitude)... Seems he had been vilifying me in the intervening weeks too.
Four years later, I had some important email come to me regarding them and passed it back to them.
Spoke to my friends again. The manager was still vilifying me to the employees and several of the employees who knew it was all lies were threatened into silence.
Bottom line? Anyone who will threaten you like that is bad news.
The term is Sociopath.
You can't bargain with a sociopath. You can't win. No matter what you do. They already hate you just for leaving and nothing will remedy that - not even staying.
So just meet your legal obligations and go.
And be glad that you found out the truth.
GrpA
Enjoy science fiction? "Turing Evolved" - AI, Mecha, Androids and rail-gun battles. What more could you want?
For some reason, reading this discussion evoked that scene from Fight Club where Edward Norton's character beats himself up in his managers office...but that's just me.
Most companies refuse to give ANY references -- good, bad, or otherwise. They usually confirm dates of employment, job title, and that's it. Fear of lawsuits, you know.
The good news is they are unlikely to give you a bad reference. The bad news is you won't get a good one either. Future potential employers are unlikely to expect much disclosure because they know what their own policy is.
Turnover being what it is these days, it won't be long before nobody at the old company remembers you anyway.
If you have a good relationship with your supervisor or other higher-ups, keep track of these people outside the company and see if they will help your career along with good references, etc. If not, hold on to hardcopy performance reviews. Ask HR for a copy of your file if you need to. Get letters of recommendation from anyone willing to write one.
Under no circumstances should you be bullied into staying longer than you have agreed to. When they have layoffs, zero notice is the norm. For employees resigning, two weeks notice is traditional (but not required). I have supervised many people over the years. When someone quit, I expected to get two weeks notice. In most cases I got it. I could tell some fascinating stories about one bizarre exception, but I won't.
In that one bizarre case where I didn't receive the traditional two weeks notice from my employee, the company had a tendency to fire people as soon as they gave notice. I never did that to anyone, but it was traditional at this company to pack up your stuff BEFORE giving notice. It was THAT bad.
This business of asking employees to stay on longer after giving notice is a standard management ploy. It is used by relatively unskilled managers who think they can squeeze all aspects of the employment relationship. Run, don't walk to the nearest exit.
publicly traded company eh. well if had gone to a lawyer and filed a whistle blower suit. where as you were fired for reporting a criminal incident. it would ruin the reputation of the company and posably get them audited and investigated by the sec. in the end you and your lawyer would be laughing all the way to the bank and there stock price would be in the shiter as well as some of them going to pound your ass prison
She had to give someone as a reference so I told her to give my phone number at the office and a fake name I gave her so I would know what it was about. Not only that, but the name I had her give them was one I had registered with the state's fictitious name registration agency, so we weren't even doing anything the slightest bit either illegal or improper! As slimy as dead mackerel in the moonlight, but 100% legal.
The lessons of history teach us - if they teach us anything - that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.
Blackmail and extortion are both serious federal crimes. A quick Google search turns up USC TITLE 18, PART I, CHAPTER 41, section 875, paragraph (d) which seems that it might apply in your case. Speak to a lawyer and perhaps the FTC, DoC, and FBI.
true enough, single HR/Manager negative reference is non issue outside that company. And large company HR will never violate the "yes he worked here [end]" however if you burn bridges enough, it will be permanent within that company, and all acquisitions (including new employer, if ever bought out). ignoring a threat from manager is fine, burning HR. Even becoming known to them, not worth the risk (unless your a good ass kisser.)
sorry it is worth the pain to kiss HR ass, and get written singed proof from HR of 2 weeks or more notice.
unfortunately.
We have to sneak around to get research done anymore. It's all develop, with a chorus of idiots asking us if we can use even cheaper Chinese parts...that fail almost immediately.
Truth isn't Truth - Guliani
Grow a spine and start your own business, then, and build a company that has some ethics.
Obviously the whole thing's not going to end well. End it like a friend of mine did when a company royally screwed him over. Walk back to your desk, strip to your skin, and walk out... naked. Everyone in the industry to this day knows EXACTLY why he left, and no matter what the company officially says, his action and the reasons for it were never forgotten by anyone, ten years later.
+++OK ATH
That refers to telephone conversations, not face-to-face conversations. There is no law that I'm aware of that regulates that.
You can point out to your boss that at work, there is no expectation of privacy. Management likes to use that against workers. You can now turn that slogan around.
which explains everything quite easily.
If any of you benevolent dictators out there are listening, most people out there are blackmailed like this. If I can prove my technical worth and if I can prove my blackmail episode, then can the internets help me get a job at least? I'm willing to take a 75% pay cut, given the times, but can I get a decent name and support to remove the effect of this blackmail system?
I'm sick and tired of wallowing before corporate badass crooked managers who believe that "notice period" is actually "license" zone, because the employee cannot do a thing. In the US there's law and sanity. Outside, much more is demanded (not always obtained by the boss though) in return for a good parting letter and references.
Can we get companies to see LinkedIn profiles or Orkut/Facebook connections rather than reference letters - that way we have some control over our future.
***************
Meanwhile, buddy, if you can, contribute to an opensource project by testing or contributing code - you might get a couple of contracts to pull you through the tough part.
***************
If any company pulled that crap on me I would have immediately called a lawyer and contacted the labor board. I wouldn't even bother telling the company I would be doing that since they had already proven they could not be trusted. Fark 'em.
-- Will program for bandwidth
I had this once. My 2-weeks' notice was agreed with my manager, and I confirmed my starting date with my new employer. Then the CEO found out, and told me "I can't just have people leaving willy-nilly, you'll need to work 2 months'". We argued the toss for a while, and eventually I pointed out that if he really insisted, I'd happily work the notice. However, I felt like I was coming down with a bit of a cold/flu, so might need to take some time off sick. And obviously I couldn't guarantee the quality of my work during that enforced period - so I might write some really awful code (yeah, same as normal ;)).
Eventually he got the point and understood that there was no way he could force me to work, so re-agreed the terms.
If you are the weak point in the company then it is a problem that they have to resolve without you.
Give them 2 weeks. The company must run in a position that can absorb pressure and they must do what is necessary to ensure that they can never get hurt by loosing an employee.
They are probably running with too few staff and it is not prudent to run a business like that.
I should mention my theory on references, which is to get in writing all resume files and promise to terminate the employee on any fraud. Then, if we ever have issue with the employee we call the references and verify. It isn't relevant unless we turn up fraud and we take all referenes with a grain of salt (refs are easily faked, esp at interview time). But later, they make great excuses to deal explicitely with nasty bad hires - granting leverage that often generates good hires without all the nasty 'firing' after the first 90 days. HR officers of companies cannot be trusted to be honest and accurate in this day and age, with only 4-6 years of education and no leadership experience at most centers, they are little more than cattle rustling pr reps for the non-union shops. But a fake reference is gold on the chopping block. Then you can talk blackmail, albiet constructive retention oriented make-a-man-out-of-you (sings) sort of incentive to shape up. When I can't find a fake line in a resume in today's market, then I worry.
Send your boss a link to this comment page, saying "here's lot's of options for how we can proceed, let me know what you think the next steps are." He may reconsider his mistake and you can both avoid HR and lawyers.
I would tell the manager you would be able to consider his request to extend your stay
if you receive the request in writing including a reference... ie. something like,
due to your good work over the last X years we request that you stay on a little longer.
Then that with your previous copies of good performance reviews, you'd be covered.
After that, make the decision to stay a little longer for twice the money, or move on
to the new company safe in the knowledge that
if they try and say anything bad in the future then you can just produce the evidence and say
that they were just bitter at losing you.
Good luck with your decision.
AdrianA
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I've run into a similar problem with a company recently that is basically a mirror of your problem... I was forced to resign by this company. The company I speak of is AVDS (Automated Voice & Data Solutions) ( http://www.avds.com/ )
I'm not the only one they have forced out, and in this market... Corporations with compromised ethics seem to be able to get away with this sort of behavior. Another guy they forced out is suing them for back pay, unpaid vacation and a few other things (last I heard).
I was forced to resign on Dec 22nd. Just 3 days before Christmas. I'm now penniless, and because of the market the fat-cats have crushed... I'm now finding it impossible to find another job. The sad thing is... AVDS is doing similar things to CUSTOMERS, not just to their employees.
I'm a Certified Interactive Intelligence, Inc. Telephony Engineer. I'm very good at what I do, and the customers I've worked with know it. I think AVDS simply wants to get rid of their top-paid talent to hire newly certified engineers willing to work for less than what us seasoned professionals are willing to accept.
The so-called Technical Support "Manager" (Michael Lavespere) while I was working there is an absolute control freak. Few (if any) of the customers like him, none of my ex-coworkers (from the original company, at least) like him. He has a propensity for lying and deceiving. He spends his entire day reading everyone's emails instead of trying to improve customer (and employee) satisfaction. Working there for the first three months or so was great... I worked from home. I have an entire office set up with several servers of my own that mirrored everything they could do in the office, but with much better results than they could have had with me in the office.
Unfortunately, from what I've experienced and heard from my ex-coworkers... Lavespere isn't the only one like this. Most, if not all, of the upper management are just like him.
I was available 24/7 and frequently received calls from customers directly because they knew that I could resolve their problems quickly. After all, I'd worked with many of them since 2006. I'm going to be writing up a nice long article about the company outlining the juicy details of the inner-workings of AVDS... Hopefully, I'll help someone avoid being put in the same situation I've been put in because of these jokers.
But either way... I feel your pain, just in a different way. Companies with compromised ethics need to be dealt with. Unfortunately, for the average person, it's not possible. We simply can't afford the teams of lawyers required to make these companies pay for their unlawful ways. All we can do is draw them out into the light for what they are and show the world just how corrupt and unethical they are.
There. My rant is done for now... Thanks for the opportunity to share my own experience alongside yours. Good luck with your situation... You're still better off than many of us!
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." -Thom
Normally, this can be handled simply. What you do is send them a letter stating that if they feel they can not give you the reference you deserve, that they should then only confirm that you were indeed employed by them. That any unfavorable reference would be taken as libel, and you would be forced to take action. Then you have a friend ask for a reference to make sure they are compliant. If they aren't, sue the heck out of them. Not a perfect solution, but an option. your first stop should be an employment lawyer or union steward (if you are unionized). The company is clearly in violation of employment law if they are trying to force you to work for them like this, especially in an at will employment state. A lot depends, of course, on any contracts you signed with them. Please check your contracts and employment policies.
Open Source: Eroding the Digital Divide
The author said this was a large company. I'd be surprised if their policy is for HR to do anything more than confirm "Yes, he worked here from X to Y" when called for a reference check, even if the employee is fired for cause. From what I've read over the last few years, that's the trend. So a manager who threatens to give a bad reference is unlikely to ever have a shot at doing so unless his name is offered as a reference. Rule 1 for people looking for a job is to never name a reference who will do anything other than gush over how great the person was.
Besides, if one already has a new job lined up, the company doing the threatening will already be two jobs back the next time a reference check is needed.
"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." -- George Orwell
So they're doing this to try to screw over your future chances for employment.
Turnabout is fair play: what company is this? If they get a bad rep, nobody good will want to work there...
Most companies do not even chase up references when taking on new candidates. I have never had a company I have worked for ask any of my referees for a reference.
The only exception I know of is if you are applying to work for the security services (MI6 , CIA , FSB etc).
Ask the manager for what he has said in writing, you could secretly record ahy conversations, but you should really approach a solicitor to see if it would be admissable in a court of law or if it would contravine legislation (RIPA 2000 etc dependant on your country / state etc). If it is not legally binding, it would still make good listening for your HR dept.
I was in a similar position a few years ago involving a dispute with my ex-employer over termination & bonus pay. It was resolved simply by not taking their bullying attitude and standing up to them.
If they want you to stay on longer that means they need you more than you need them. Tell them that 3 weeks notice was a consideration on your part but if they're going to try to bully you you'll reduce it to the standard 2 weeks _and_ take any remaining vacation and sick time in that period as well.
Also, before I left, I insisted on a full copy of my employment file (they are obliged to give it to you by law) so that I had proof of my good HR assessments over the years. If they state they will give you a bad reference in future, point out to them that you have your employment records to refute the reference and that any such action would be considered defamation of character and may well result in a libel suit.
Don't forget - they want you to stay and that makes you the one in control, not them.
Are you crazy? Get a lawyer, now. If you've got any documentation at all, most would take your case on a contingency fee basis.
Yes, and I made sure I could prove this, as well as being sure I made objections, giving reasons and making sure I could prove that also (copies of emails, mostly). When they proceeded as threatened, I sued for retaliation (I think that is available in states generally, but I am not sure). The money was very good, though I agreed not to disclose the terms of the settlement - think large numbers.
And if they still want to be dicks after that, make it two weeks, and say that you'd prefer not to get attorneys involved, with a bit of stress on the prefer.
Many companies have strict policies no to re-hire former employees, irrespective of the way the work relationship was terminated, so the above question is frankly pointless.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Honestly, this reference business is over hyped.
You have control of who your company can contact, so I don't know whay they even bother to ask for them.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Honestly, I keep hearing this but frankly it is not true.
You will meet the odd acquaintance here and there, but it will be rarely in a situation in which they can block your professional progression...
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Here in London, one of the most expensive cities in the world, you can find lawyers for around $100.
Surely you can do better than that wherever you are?
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
People here most likely have something useful to say because they have been in similar situations.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Why do you quote that company in your CV?
Unless you worked there all your life then there is no reason you should put them on your CV.
You could put that you were unemployed or at home during that period for personal reasons.
You could also ask the old company to substantiate those claims, otherwise they could be in hot water for defamation.
As others have indicated you should have blowed the whistle any way. Talk to a lawyer, they will sort out the bad references and advice you how to engage with the respective authorities in order to prosecute your former employer.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
It is a sad thing when competent, faithful service is rewarded in this manner. That you've been a productive and effective member of their development group is more than evident by the fact they don't want you to leave, and your own dedication by giving them three weeks notice (something I myself have done in the past).
Such an action smacks of immaturity and short-sightedness; even after you muster out of the job, on their terms or yours, they'll probably need to ask you questions about your past projects when new developers work with them. And you won't be inclined to help.
Consider this: because of their own juvenile attempt at manipulation, if you push back they could very well fold and give in, letting you have your 3 weeks.
However considering their antics you should get a Letter of Rec *before* agreeing to anything; quitting in three weeks or three months, they'll have to provide one no matter what. And if they decide to give you a bad verbal rec, you'll always have the letter to fall back on (not to mention a good story to tell).
The best way to deal with this "company reference" stuff is the old fashioned way. Ask people you respect in the soon to be former employer who are familiar with your work and skills to write a letter of reference. On company letterhead.
Of course you'd prefer your direct manager to write a LOR for you. Ask him / her.
These letters belong to you. You can present them with your resume to prospective employers. They are much easier to track than contact or personal reference information. They are always fresh. Any company will only confirm employment these days. You need to provide the endorsements of employment yourself.
Lots of people will offer anecdotes about how they were in a similar situation and did something totally bad-ass and made the bastards pay. Just ignore all that - if it works out then it'll make a great story, but more likely it's just going to hurt you. Making the following assumptions: 1) You're in the U.S. 2) Your story is true and not just an invitation for trolling. Do the following things: 1) Stay calm. If you're the type who gets riled up then make sure to keep yourself under control. Practice what you're going to say beforehand - this helps. 2) If you haven't already done so, get your boss to flat-out voice the threat in no uncertain terms. A lot of managers have perfected the art of implying, insinuating, but never actually brandishing the carrot or the stick. If he/she keeps beating around the bush, just ask "look, maybe I'm totally misunderstanding this, but are you saying that I'll get some kind of black mark for leaving in three weeks?" Hopefully, before you get to the point of asking that question, you'll find out it was just a misunderstanding. Most folks hate their bosses because they're incompetent. Very few bosses are true rat bastards - maybe you've got one of these, but probably not. 3) If you get past step 2 and you still think that the threat's there, then write a follow-up email to your boss saying the exact same thing. Something like "Hey boss, I'm a little shaken up, and I just want to make sure there's absolutely no confusion. If I leave in three weeks, am I going to receive a mark of leaving the company 'on bad terms'? If so, how much longer do I need to stay in order to ensure that I don't get that black mark? Have I done something to create these 'bad terms' other than hand in my resignation? I've really enjoyed working for you and for company X, and I would like to leave on good terms. KTHXBYE." 4) Immediately make a copy of all those emails and your performance reviews (that's obvious, right?). 5) If your boss doesn't reply or refuses to say anything clearly (I'm assuming that he won't be dumb enough to actually say "yeah, that's what I meant!"), have a quick chat with HR. Tell them your concerns. Some (OK, most) HR folks are useless, but they very rarely see direct threats, and they'll definitely take an interest. If your boss writes back "no, of course not! You've been great! You must have misunderstood...", then skip this step. 6) Leave no later than at the end of those original three weeks. 7) Fuggedaboutit. Nobody's ever going to talk to your boss. If you're really concerned about it, wait a couple of months and call up your old company, or ask a friend to call for you and ask for employment verification. Even better, talk to a recruiter, and ask him/her to get the skinny for you, since they've got experience getting those kinds of details anyway. If your recruiter does, in fact, get some info like "left on bad terms", then call a lawyer. I really, really, really doubt that'll happen tho. Believe me, life's too complicated to worry about that kind of crap. Just be honest and clear, and this will all work out.
--Nate