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"Apple Tax" Report Backfires On Microsoft
Ian Lamont writes "A Microsoft-sponsored report that describes a hidden "Apple tax" has fallen flat among the technology press. Roger Kay's report (PDF) compares various PC and Mac configurations, and claims an all-Apple household's costs would add up to an extra $3,367 over five years. Tech columnists and bloggers have slammed the comparisons and claims made in the report — even Mac-baiter John C. Dvorak calls it propaganda. However, some Mac fans still see a pro-Microsoft press conspiracy. Even if the comparisons are questionable, Kay's report and the accompanying television ads have clearly struck a nerve among the Mac faithful."
Meanwhile, Linux users everywhere are scratching their heads.
The price tag clearly displays it before the 1,000 unit separator..
*scratches head*
The disappearing pencil trick. Let me show you it.
I buy and use what I like and what I feel lets me work best. I don't think the Apple Tax is that high (hell, it might not even exist), but if Apple can command that price and have people pay it, what's wrong with that? It's just economics: things are worth only what people will pay for them.
Those who anthropomorphize science and/or nature already believe in an intelligent designer.
See Page Three of the PDF:
"And by holding a price umbrella over the entire market, even with arguably better products, Apple allowed the entire Windows ecosystem to establish itself underneath."
Imaging that. Charging more for a better product!
Soccer Goal Plans
Are you kidding me? Apple has been the darling of newsrooms for as long as I can remember. There was a time you could walk into any newspaper or television newsroom in the country and not see anything BUT Apple computers. The press LOVES Apple. They slovenly follow every Apple product launch with almost rapturous attention (at the iPhone launch, I think I saw more than one reporter have an on-camera orgasm) and talk up even the most mundane Apple announcement. Hell, they've been treating Steve Jobs' recent illness as if the Pope himself had cancer.
Only the most rabid Apple fanboy (who thinks NOTHING good should ever be said of MS, and Apple can do no wrong) would think there is anything even resembling a "pro-Microsoft press conspiracy" out there. Most of the positive press coverage I see about MS is either when they have a MAJOR launch (the 360, a new Halo game, etc.) or is related to Bill Gates' considerable charitable activities (which *deserves* to be covered and extolled, if nothing more than to encourage other rich guys to do it). Most of their stuff barely gets a nod. I don't remember a single mainstream, non tech-press, story on the Zune launch, for example.
If anyone is getting cheated by the mainstream press, it's Linux. I've yet to see a single mainstream news story on THAT. It wasn't even mentioned in any of the news stories on the OLPC program (which got considerable press).
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
Meanwhile Linux users everywhere are scratching their heads.
No, no we are not. We're used to this shit from Ballmer and Co. Surprised that they turned their sites on Apple with it?
No, I've bitched about this before and I'm sick of hearing about "hidden costs" that you don't pay when you install Linux or OSX or whatever but that you pay later. Or the cost to train to a new OS being a "hidden" cost because Microsoft starts these reports with the assumption that everyone already knows Windows XP.
I'm not scratching my head, I'm sick of it. And I hope that this finally causes people to realize that you can only assume the price of what you initially pay for software because they all have flaws and problems down the line. It's a futile exercise to try to itemize that in a cost list because--surprise surprise--you're often subjective and biased when you do it!
Microsoft conveniently ignores these "comprehensive" reports when they ask you to upgrade to Vista despite all the retraining and migration problems you will have.
My work here is dung.
I'm pretty sure just about every self-minded tech journalist/blogger/twitterer/etc. would jump on the Microsoft bashwagon if it makes him/her look cool and worthwhile.
It doesn't matter if everyone bashes Microsoft. Apple is also a design firm, hence the Apple tax on the Apple logo. It's like paying 300 for a pair of Gucci sunglasses: they're damned good for your eyes but 250 dollars of it is a tax on design.
Viable Slashdot alternatives: https://pipedot.org/ and http://soylentnews.org/
On a high end window's machine you can easily spend just as much. That being said, Apple's generally are more expensive, but that being said, is it really a wise move for Microsoft to point this out? Shouldn't they just get some comedians to point out how Apple is full of chic jerks and PC's are where real computing is done?
The musings of just another geek and his junk.
"Meanwhile Linux users everywhere are scratching their heads..."
trying to figure out how to install their word processor on the newest ubuntu distro
You have to admit, they are really well hidden.
That's because using Linux gives you dandruff.
I'm just kidding.
Living in a basement is what gives you dandruff. :)
http://twitter.com/onion2k
Roger Kay's paper was a lot like the movie Supersize Me, wherein he accepted anything he was offered. Microsoft has a huge product line. If that standard were applied fairly one could easily make Windows PCs appear expensive. "Would you like Office with that?"
The "cue the foo posts in 3, 2, 1..." posts will commence with no subsequent foo posts in 3, 2, 1...
At some point, I think most people grow up and tune out this kinda of shit. It's really tiring to see folks root for one corporation over another.
Millions of smug Mac users and the four hundred smug Linux users pointed and laughed, having long given up trying to convince their Windows-using friends to see sense.
"There's a reason the Unix system on Mac OS X is called Darwin," said appallingly smug Mac user Arty Phagge.
"It can't be stupid if everyone else runs it," said Windows user Joe Beleaguered, who had lost all his email, business files, MP3s and porn again. "Macs cost more than Windows PCs."
"Yes," said Phagge. "Yes, they do."
Ubuntu Linux developer Hiram Nerdboy frantically tried to get our attention about something or other, but we can't say we care.
http://rocknerd.co.uk
Meanwhile Linux users everywhere are scratching their heads.
If they'd shower a bit more often scalp dryness wouldn't be a problem.
If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
Five licenses, less than $200:
http://www.amazon.com/Apple-Version-10-5-6-Leopard-5-User/dp/B000BR0NPO
(and no feature variation betwixt home and work)
How much will 5 upgrades to Windows 7 cost me?
William
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
And it's not "Linux users everywhere...."
It's "Linux users in their Mom's basement...."
(Yes, I'm a Linux user, and yes, I own my own house.
It's a joke, mods.....)
"City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
They only talk about the hardware, not the software. Most people I know buy a Mac because of Mac OS X and iLife, not because the machines "look good".
given that Apple's quality has dropped as of late,
Can you link some of those for us to look at? ("pictures, or it didn't happen")
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
There are so many things to pick at Kay's article, but that one point is a decent representative example. "Apple has done something we haven't been able to duplicate yet, but we think we've got it this time. Really! Not like last time, not at all."
Of course there is an Apple tax, there always has been. It's easier to see now that Apple is building their computers using the same processors that PCs are. You can get the equivalent components in a PC for around 70% of the cost of the Mac basically across the board. But Macs have some things the PC doesn't (the Mac 'style', the magnetic power cord, the unibody constructions of the higher end notebooks... and then there's Mac OS X). If someone wants a Mac, they buy a Mac. If they don't care about the OS or the style and just have specific requirements (most hardware for the $, just the usual web/email/documents, a 17" laptop under $1,000, a netbook, etc) they buy a PC.
Portable versions of Firefox, GIMP, LibreOffice, etc
For many people, even if Apple's prices are high, they're preferable to a typical Vista-based PC for reasons similar to why it's better to live in overly taxed Europe than under-taxed Africa.
Oh, so your mom lives upstairs?
(also a joke, mods...)
He has a point. Macbook discoloration (pre-unibody), case chipping (pre-unibody, and this has happened to mine as well), as well as razor-sharp edges on all unibody macbooks. That and the overuse of heat paste, the general heat problems, screen backlighting unevenness... these are things I haven't seen on my dell, oddly enough.
Viable Slashdot alternatives: https://pipedot.org/ and http://soylentnews.org/
Neckbeard getting a bit itchy?
Is Apple for years has made outrageous claims about performance and productivity (remember the intel snail ads? You don't? Here's a reminder...). I won't even talk about the wierd and inaccurate claims they make in their mac vs. pc ads.
But Microsoft (who has been quiet for ages!) makes one or two not even dubious claims (whoa - macs cost more - big news) and everyone gets all bent out of shape.
Software Installation Reboot Tax
Virus Tax
Anti-Virus Installation Reboot Tax
MS Word Document Corruption And Formatting Instability Tax
MS Office 2007 UI Redesign Tax
Windows Genuine Advantage Tax
Windows Update Reboot Tax
DRM Tax
Internet Explorer Web Deficiencies Tax
Idiotic Advertising Campaigns Tax
Ballmer Squirt Tax
Rich And Stupid is not so bad as Working For Rich And Stupid.
You got to have your head very deeply insides balmer digestive tract to think the quote above is a good way to describe your own product.
Kay doesn't just drink the coolaid, he slurps it straight from Ballmers wiener.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Microsoft releasing less than honest information about a competitor? And it backfires as people call them out for dishonesty? Wow that's never happened before. Microsoft doesn't seem to learn from their mistakes do they?
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Note that the 5 licenses only apply to computers owned by the same family and in the same house. If you read the license it does not cover, for example, a Mac owned by a child who has gone to university (or, at least, didn't last time I read the license, which was about two years ago - feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about this). I don't know many people who own more than 2 Macs, and so the five license thing could just as well be an unlimited site license for personal use. For most people it is not particularly good value. Now, a few years ago when the family license for iLife was (briefly) the same price as the single license, things were different. I own two Macs, but one of them still runs Tiger because I didn't want to pay for Leopard on it and I got the very-cheap - around $20 - upgrades for both machines by buying them just before the new OS was announced.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Who was honestly expecting an unbiased report on Apple products when it says on the first page "Sponsor: Microsoft"?
Did you think Microsoft would approve publication of something they paid for that didn't put their own products in a better light than Apple's? People seem shocked by something that (to me) should have been clear from the very start. Or am I being too simplistic?
You can advertise in this sig from as little as £99.99 a month!
He owns his own house, but doesn't live in it!
Being an avid Linux user, I fully admit there is a linux tax. Lets see, I make roughly $18/hour. To build, install and trouble shoot a machine until it is running the way I like takes me probably on average an hour. So that is roughly an $18 dollar tax for using linux verse OSX or Windows! But the lack of hair restoration from dealing with Windows and the trying to get around the idiot proofing of OSX probably more then makes up for that.
Of course your 'Tax' may vary but for me I don't mind paying the linux tax.
This is like saying that when you have a BMW, you pay a special BMW tax. We could all buy used Chevy Novas an replace them every year and half, but I fail to see how that would really be cheaper in the long run if your time an grief are worth anything to you.
I thought the entire point of the word tax, as in Microsoft tax, was that it was something you have to pay whether you want it or not. Paying Apple to use OS X isn't a tax. Paying Microsoft to use Windows isn't a tax. Paying Microsoft to use Linux because it's damn difficult to find a similar PC without Windows preinstalled or get a refund is a tax.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
The point John makes (I heard it on Twit.tv podcast as well) is that if you replace Apple with Microsoft, and Microsoft with Linux the argument stands true. Microsoft just told their customer to buy based on cost. Its hard to bet Free on cost, so if people stop and think about this ad campaign, MS is pushing people to Linux.
Think Deeply.
with their mud flinging pc (vista) vs mac ad campaign, when they decided to tout their superiority and drag vista (but implying all pc's) though the mud on TV. Apple stores have found themselves situated in malls among designer shops, as thats where they should be, as they are a high priced, high style, "elitist" product line, just as their obnoxious commercials suggest...
Does it do what you need? Can you afford it? Then why worry about it.
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
He has a point. Macbook discoloration (pre-unibody), case chipping (pre-unibody, and this has happened to mine as well), as well as razor-sharp edges on all unibody macbooks. That and the overuse of heat paste, the general heat problems, screen backlighting unevenness... these are things I haven't seen on my dell, oddly enough.
And still, try to sell a Dell laptop after two or three years and compare that to what you get for a MacBook after two or three years...
People expect a certain amount basic honesty from others. If I ask a taxi-driver to take me to location X, I expect him to say if it is just ten meters down the road, not charge me for the ride.
Is it to unreasonable to expect a company to not outright lie, consitently on facts? Sure, of course Vista is great and will improve your life. But don't claim it boots in 2 seconds when it doesn't. Their is sales talk and their is lying and there is a difference.
MS, and various other companies have lost sight of this difference and it makes everything they say suspect and on the whole, irritating as hell. Coca Cola is not exactly telling the truth that when you open the can a party comes out, but neither is it claiming Coca Cola is more healthy then fruit juice or a glass of milk.
MS with this campaign is once again not just trying to show how good there products are but trying to bend facts until they break and claiming it is just advertising. For most of us, there is a limit.
Compare it to a job interview. If you tell the truth, that you are an average coder, well that is very honest but won't get you hired. Say you are a really good programmer and you might not be to honest but hey, it is a sales pitch and they know it so might hire you hoping for a good programmer. Say you are the best programmer and people will just laugh at you.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
While I agree that people clearly understand that they are paying more to buy a mac, I really dislike the monopoly position Apple takes with what hardware can run OS X. What if I want to use a different setup or just plain don't like the look of the box? Of course I could use a hacked version, but thats just like saying DRM doesn't mean anything...
I am sure Apple has patented some of the cooler things about the new Macbooks. I have to admit, I want one, with that magnetic power plug, the solid aluminum case, etc.
But it's more than just costing more for the hardware -- they have exactly the same tax Microsoft does. If I buy a Mac, I will get OS X, there is no way around it.
What I really want is the option to buy a machine very similar to modern Macbooks, but with hardware known to support Linux, and without having to pay for an OS I don't intend to use.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Erm, how about dell hard drives getting the click of death, dell hard drives showing up partially formatted (on machines bought with preinstalled software), Dell monitors arcing and frying themselves, Dell laptops gradually disintegrating over a period of about two years. Right, for every anecdote you've got against Apple, I've got one against Dell, because I've seen just about every problem and issue with them both. It doesn't make either of them right. When you actually dig up some statistics on average lifetime of computers by brand and their return rate due to defects, come talk to me.
As for me, I'm typing this on a four year old macbook pro that looks and runs about as good as the day I bought it. I could be wrong, but given that I expect an apple laptop to run about five years before it gets too slow to fix, I'm betting that the increased lifetime destroys most if not any advantage you get buy buying a cheaper machine. Are they perfect, sure as hell not, there are issues, but I've seen enough shitty laptops out there to realize that sometimes you get what you pay for.
Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the war room!
Multiple physical buttons, and HDMI out (not just DisplayPort). Please?
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
He has a point. Macbook discoloration (pre-unibody), case chipping (pre-unibody, and this has happened to mine as well), as well as razor-sharp edges on all unibody macbooks. That and the overuse of heat paste, the general heat problems, screen backlighting unevenness... these are things I haven't seen on my dell, oddly enough.
Pre-unibody, pre-unibody... So I guess his point is that quality of Mac builds had dropped, but is now improving?
modding on parent brought to you by the humour impaired sheesh
Dvorak has admitted in the past that he deliberately trolls in order to get traffic, and thus ad revenue.
I am therefore giving him neither traffic nor ad revenue, no matter how insightful his comment might be.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Just another instance of 2 giants fighting for the market using any means available... Nothing new, nothing special
Given the choise between Hitler and RIAA/MPAA I'd go for the first one - at least he knew when to shoot himself.
Oddly enough this white paper idea for the apple tax looks a lot like the "Cost of owning a 360" comparasion Sony came up with to show why the PS3 was really cheaper than the Xbox 360.
I guess its no shocker that MS would steal someone elses marketing ploy. Not that it really worked all that well for Sony either.
What's this unhealthy obsession with making sure that someone else doesn't spend his money as he pleases? Even if Apple costs more, it's none of my business when someone spends the money he earned to get what he wants.
I see Mac user community a much bigger problem than prices. Cultist behavior gives me the creeps.
End anonymous moderation and posting on
Apple's core market is not just the delivery of a commodity computer and a commodity operating system. It is the end to end receipt of a solution. People that buy Apples buy them because you will get good service out of their store, and you will get solid hardware that works.
There is a reasonable premium to be charged for that and I don't think arguing Mac on price is alone is really indicative of the kind of market people have. Some people are willing to pay a good premium for a good experience. I for one have had an absolutely excellent experience with Macintoshes. I tell myself the same thing as I tell everyone else. If you want the best possible consumer experience, and you don't mind paying more, just go and buy a Macintosh. It's the simplicity of experience, that people pay more for.
I will have to say, that I don't have the money, so right now I'm running a home built dual Opteron with yesterday's CPUs (Opteron 270s), using Windows Vista Business on one drive and Linux on another... but, hey, if I did have the money, I'd buy the Mac.
This is my sig.
A b.s. claim of a "Microsoft Tax" = Good
A b.s. claim of an "Apple Tax" = Bad
Slashdot's logic seems a bit inconsistant in it's application.
Apple only has a 2% market share so why does Microsoft care?
Simple the only reason that Apple doesn't make a Cheap Mac that is the same price as HP or Dell is they don't want to.
I don't own a Mac. But I have to wonder just how much cheaper a Dell or HP is to a none techie user. Throw in a few visits to the Geek Squad and subscriptions for anti everything ware and I am not so sure that a Windows Box is cheaper in the long run.
Microsoft is just so opening themselves up with this.
MicroSoft: Sure Macs may be a better than a Windows box but not at the price they charge.
Apple: And now for just one more thing. The new eMacBook for $699 and eMacTower $499.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
Okay, I'll bite.
Release dates:
2001: OSX 10.0/.1, Windows XP
2002: OSX 10.2
2003: OSX 10.3
2005: OSX 10.4
2007: OSX 10.5, Vista (retail)
5 user upgrades from XP to Vista Home Premium at $129 ea = $645
4 OS upgrades for OSX (5 pack, since you'd upgrade all 5 people) @ $200/5pk = $800
I'm tired of people saying their apple runs just as good four years later. Its almost technically impossible. Hardware degrades. It has nothing to do with the OS and no, the component quality in a macbook is *not* that much better than what you'd find in a high-end laptop. I guarantee you its NOT running as well as the first day you bought it, you just can't admit it to yourself. No CPU, RAM, harddrive, etc etc etc is going to run as well as it did after four years of usage unless its never getting used in which case the same principles can be applied to any other computer.
The only reason they sell for so much now is precisely because they don't offer any low budget lines. If they had, then you wouldn't be able to sell your stuff second hand so easily.
If any Apple cultist says their machine runs just as well as it did four years after purchase OR touts how much they can resell it for, they're just as disillusioned as a MS apologist. I think OS X is a very fine operating system. I *do* think it *is* better than Vista. However, its not the second coming of Jesus Christ like so many of you people believe. Its *NOT* good enough to base your entire lives around it NOR is it good enough to bash other people just for not having one. Its also not good enough to justify any sort of elitism any cultist has (I'm not saying you're one of them, but you can't deny that Apple groups are overrun with them). There are PLENTY of situations where OS X is *NOT* the best choice for someone and that includes various home consumers, not just business environments.
The Xbox360.
Wifi = $100
Xbox Live =$50/year = $250 for 5 years.
Hard drive $100/$150
Batteries for controller $20 (play charge kit)
Total = $470
Add the $200 for the arcade to get $670. And people say PC gaming is expensive. At least you online for free. A decent graphics card is only $200, if a pc is relatively new it should run most games (maybe not at full settings but at 720p shouldn't be a problem).
So there isn't really a conspiracy here, but there is an undercurrent fighting against the pro apple news. The loudest news about apple is pro apple, but only a little less loud is the anti apple news and complaining that said devices aren't perfect. How many people here on slashdot railed against the Mac because it didn't have a command line for so long? Or rail against the iPhone because it's not 100% open or doesn't support Ogg? These are valid arguments, but as people speak out, the almighty dollar takes over, and some journalists pick up on this sentiment and look to make money off it. They establish their niche in reporting and, often, becomes as dogmatic as the pro apple news, and many times stops providing any real content and just keeps finding more ways to say "apple sucks."
You might think "well duh, of course there are two sides to the story why are you saying this" but if you are swept up in the bipolar press, you aren't realizing there is a third voice, very quiet and very small. Those are the moderates who are actively trying to be objective and are somewhere in the middle. But in just about all news these days, not just tech news, objectivity doesn't sell very well, only the extreme viewpoints do.
Of course, all of this does not include the fact that Microsoft has a vested interest in getting as many journalists on their side as they can and if they could would bribe anyone and everyone into believing their OS is best. There is a small, anemic conspiracy there, but that's not Apple specific, that's Microsoft trying to fight against any and all competitors. They've done this with Linux before too.
"All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"
When I, a security engineer, buy a machine, I'm not the the average consumer. But my wife is.
If her current Dell laptop broke, I know what her requirements are. She wants something with a 15 inch screen and it has to do what she wants, basically surf the web, email, and edit her photos in Lightroom, that's really all.
To purchase a 15" Dell will cost me about $800-900 shipped.
To purchase a 15" Mac will cost me $2000, minimum.
For the average consumer, I think people can see that some Mac's are overpriced.
If the vendor of the word processor (like Word Perfect) cares, then they will make
a shiny happy installation program just like any other commercial software vendor
on the planet (including Oracle).
Otherwise, I can just just double click on the binary package (like an MSI file)
or just search for "word processor" in my package manager. There is a shiny happy
GUI for this and everything.
1998 called, it wants it's FUD back.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
The white first gen macbooks certainly had issues. I believe they were the first to attempt a matte finish white plastic case for a laptop computer, which was bound to cause issues with discoloration. There was one bad run of white topcase plastic that stained from skin oil and makeup, though the rest were ok. As to the cracking, there were actually not one, but two separate cracking issues. One was IMHO a design flaw, placing the top lid rests to land at a weak spot where the top case was thin and bridged a gap over the optical drive. The other less-known issue was hairline cracking near the ports. I have no idea why it was doing that, I can only assume it was again a plastics issue of stress cracking. (I'm not a plastics engineer) In all three of these cases though, Apple has been replacing these parts for free, as far as one year out of warranty. Although you can still count those as quality issues, I'd say repairing a year out of warranty is a pretty good reaction by Apple. That's the price you have to pay for cutting edge technology.
"razor sharp edges" is a bit melodramatic don't you think? They've got an edge like a butter knife.
The whole heat sink compound issue is entertaining at best. There are only two ways to overuse hsc: put on so much that you can't press the heat spreader down flush on the die, or put on so much that it oozes out and blocks ventilation, neither of which has happened with macs. You'll notice none of the people discussing this "issue" are citing anyone with a clue. (like an electrical engineer) Having worked with electronics for over 30 years, all I can do is laugh at these people that think because they see some hsc oozed out from the spreader that it's somehow defective. The only two common ways to screw this up is use cheap/contaminated hcs, or not get your heat spreader down firm and flush, and that's never been an issue with Apple.
Heat is turning out to be a tradeoff though. You want it to run as fast as possible, you want it to be small, and you want it to always run cool. Pick two, you can't have all three. Don't set it on your lap while you're doing video rendering. Apple does some of the best cooling of any computer, desktop or laptop, using multiple fans and temperature sensors with zones, and intelligent fan speed control with acoustic consideration. They run cooler (and quieter) than any laptop or desktop of their size and speed. Compare with your dell's size, acoustic level, and processor speed. Apple also figured out early it's a stupid idea to put vents or intakes on the underside of a laptop.
Jury's still out on the backlight issue. I haven't seen enough examples of this problem yet to figure out what's going on with them. CCT lighting issues are extremely rare and are actually almost alway defective inverters. There seem to have been an early run of LED backlights with the "stage lights" effect but I haven't seen a single one of those show up, I'm assuming those are also very rare or occurred only very early in the initial run.
I'm surprised you didn't mention the hard drives in the macbooks. OMG seagate needs to be publicly beaten. I've lost count of how many seagate hds have failed in macbooks. Bad choice by Apple to OEM them. Thankfully they're going WD now. Speculating there hasn't been a major outcry because people can more easily recognize an OEM isn't directly responsible for such a clearly outsourced part.
I haven't heard anyone say a word about issues with the desktops lately. Considering how Apple likes to keep near the bleeding edge, it's surprising to see two entire generations of new systems with no common early issues. (talking about the silver cased imacs or mac pros) Has anyone heard anything at all bad about them? I've ran into a few 24" imacs with bad power supplies, but haven't heard anyone discussing that publicly.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
I'm tired of people saying their apple runs just as good four years later. Its almost technically impossible. Hardware degrades. It has nothing to do with the OS and no, the component quality in a macbook is *not* that much better than what you'd find in a high-end laptop. I guarantee you its NOT running as well as the first day you bought it, you just can't admit it to yourself. No CPU, RAM, harddrive, etc etc etc is going to run as well as it did after four years of usage unless its never getting used in which case the same principles can be applied to any other computer.
Not to defend Apple here, but please explain to me how, for example, a CPU or RAM "degrades". As far as I can tell, either it works or it doesn't. Does RAM run slower? That would be hard to believe, because it is externally clocked by the MB.
That's not to say that RAM or a CPU won't eventually -fail-, but until they fail they don't really degrade.
I call BS.
A house divided against itself cannot stand.
Did you say something? I was getting work done here, rather than worrying about Microsoft's next great evil plan... you know, life without walls, yada yada yada...
8==8 Bones 8==8
Ubuntu 9.04 works out of the box with my USB Wi-Fi dongle but now I can't get the proper resolution on my laptop's screen (I get to choose 640x480 or 800x600 on a machine capable of 1440 x 1050). The situation was reversed in 7.10 - the screen worked straight out the box whereas I had to recompile ndiswrapper to get the Wi-Fi working. Bag of shite, mate !
Squirrel!
This is funny no matter which side of the PC/Mac/Linux debate you are on. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbJSuduTrPs
Seriously, before I ditched windows entirely I burned through more than $700/year in personal labor costs just to keep M$ software functional.
There's a reason why I BUY macs for all of my relatives after their PCs have died. It saves me time and money.
1998 called, it wants it's FUD back.
The list of devices that you have to be fearful of on Linux
continues to grow smaller and less relevant.
Interestingly enough, a principle similar to what some like
to apply to Apple can be used here. Simply avoid using the
cheapest piece of crap you can find. Even in 1998, this was
useful for avoiding trouble in Windows as well as Linux.
Sometimes you really do get what you pay for.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
I'm not so sure on that. My old iBook G4 is easily 5 years old, and it still runs fast enough to do everything my GF needs it to in a reasonable manner, and it still looks pretty good (the case is scuffed as shit and there's a couple of chips, but it still looks pretty good) The only issues are that the screen isn't very bright (I'm not sure if this is because it has degraded or because over the years LCDs have risen in quality) and the HD is potentially on its way out.
I don't know if a comparably priced Dell/HP etc would still be working, though FWIW my Compaq bought at the same time died utterly three years ago (motherboard committed suicide and took the PSU with it)
cmd-q.co.uk - some sort of stupid fucking internet bullshit
Maybe Apple is more expensive, maybe it isn't.
Did I miss the memo where we have abandoned capitalism? Demand and supply meet at the price point of agreement. I'm perfectly willing to pay what Apple asks for its products. Sure, I'd be just as happy to pay less, just as they would be happy to charge more. But that's not the point.
The point is: Is it worth it?
Standard PC with Vista - 2000
or iMac with Leopard - 2500
I'd rather pay for the second, because not everything is about price alone.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
What the hell are you talking about? Maybe you better clean out the registry on your windows machine, or better yet reformat, and find out how fast your machine used to be before you start trying to tell me about my much RAM is degrading. Yes, things like backlights on LCDs fade with use, and batteries have shorter lifespans, but that's normal wear and tear, the laptop itself runs just fine. I don't get any fewer floating point calculations per second, nor do my 3D rendered objects get any fewer frames per second. You can bitch and moan all you wish about how the Apple computers use standard components, but that doesn't explain why my Dell laptop fell apart after two years and my macbook pro is going strong after four. It's called QA/QC and it's expensive, look it up.
Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the war room!
My desktop: Mac Pro, 2 x 2.8 GHz quad-core Xeon, 10 GB RAM, 1.5 TB disk, 2 x Radeon 2600 XT. Cost $4.8K. Similar Dell: $ 9K (Precision T7500 64bit). This does not include iWork and iLife which I got with the Mac.
My laptop: MacBook, 2 GHz Core2 Duo, 4 GB RAM, 160 GB disk, 15", camera, bluetooth, etc. Cost $1.4K. Similar Dell: ~ $1.3K, but the Dell comes with no camera and no additional software.
My point: Apple's problem (or strength) is that they refuse to make low-end stuff. In the middle range, Dells cost as much as Apples, as my laptop shows. At the higher end, Apples are significantly cheaper. It's not a tax, it's money you pay for more features.
Of course if you compare the cheapest possible Apple (a mini for $600) with the cheapest possible Dell (Inspiron for $300), it looks like there's a tax but I'd argue that the mini's 2 GHz Core2 Duo beats the inspiron's 2.2 GHz Celeron any day, even if the Inspiron comes with twice the memory -- and the Inspiron would need to run Vista Ultimate for an extra $ 150 to even compare with OS X Leopard; and might need some more memory then.
Cheapy crappy products are cheap and crappy, in regards to both hardware and software. If you like Windows software, and want reliable+fast hardware, it costs roughly the same as a Mac. Nothing to see here, move along.
lol, you actually think a MacBook is a good long term investment?
They devalue at similar rates.
Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
MS has ordered thousands (rhetoric) of reports on how migration to other, non-MS products are very expensive because of the 'lack of interoperability' caused by MS' lock-in. I find it amusing MS is so happy to say things like the hidden cost of apple computers when MS' business' model is all about hidden costs. I.e: you buy a windows netbook and since it is 2009 there's quite the subvention on them. But when we'll buy them in 2013 and due to the new monopoly on them, they will charge us all they didn't charge today. The same happens with all OEMs, hidden windows tax everywhere. And hardware makers having to go through 'windows certified' programs. All my country paying thousands of windows licenses because the tax office created a 'free' .net, sql-server intensive client for their tax system (which is impossible to run in WINE or Mono). Or SUSE users paying extra for MS' protection. Or tomtom customers now have to pay more just so they can use FAT-32, one of the simplest filesystems with an implementation you would guess after any good OS course... Etc, etc, etc. Hidden MS costs everywhere.
Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
While off-topic to the post at hand, I am uncertain how voicing an opinion such as the one above constitutes a troll. Perhaps I have hurt someones feelings in which case I apologize. Any of the lower UIDs care to fill me in?
"Quote me as saying I was mis-quoted." -Groucho Marx
Only idiots buy all their equipment from high street retailers and pay full price, I expect better from /.ers
Most of the consumer market isn't made up of /.'ers, let alone the informed.
The disappearing pencil trick. Let me show you it.
Xbox Live =$50/year = $250 for 5 years.
Unncessary to play the vast bulk of games. You can also get it for around 35/13 months by buying subscription cards. But if you want to play figures 15/month WoW subscription for 5 years = $900.
Hard drive $100/$150
Already comes with the 360 unless you buy the crappy Arcade. But even still isn't necessary unless you play online which most games are single player anyway.
Batteries for controller $20 (play charge kit)
Or you can spend 6 dollars and get a set of rechargables.
Total = $470
Oh noes! Not 470 dollars!
Add the $200 for the arcade to get $670. And people say PC gaming is expensive.
If you want to play any games from the last couple of years you would have spent at least 670 if not more on your PC.
At least you online for free.
For some games. If you want to play any decent MMO you are going to pay way more in fees over the same 5 years than anyone would pay for a 360 pro and a 5 year subscription to Live. And they would have enough money left over to buy at least a dozen or more games in that same period and still come out ahead.
A decent graphics card is only $200, if a pc is relatively new it should run most games (maybe not at full settings but at 720p shouldn't be a problem).
Yeah but it's going to cost you around 600-800 dollars to build a system (assuming you do it yourself) that will be able to do that. So basically your whole argument seems moot.
I buy and use what I like and what I feel lets me work best. I don't think the Apple Tax is that high (hell, it might not even exist), but if Apple can command that price and have people pay it, what's wrong with that? It's just economics: things are worth only what people will pay for them.
I completely agree with you. It's taken me quite a few years to realize this, but I've found that the most valuable thing to me is my time. That alone justifies any premium with Apple, as I find myself spending MUCH less time maintaining a Mac than I do a PC.
Besides, there's a "tax" on damn near everything you buy. Apple has it's own value-add, and so does Microsoft. Same with Lexus vs. Toyota, or even Ford vs. Ferrari.
Ultimately, you're buying your satisfaction no matter what the end object is, so the only person ANYONE should be arguing and justifying "taxes" to is the one in the mirror. Funny how we seem to allow our satisfaction to win quite often, and ultimately pay the "extra tax" on a lot of things in our lives.
Their monitors are nowhere near what they used to be... And screens on the macbooks
I'm not surprised there's a backlash, I just read the report for the first time and I found it absurd
Let me state for the record that I use a mix of Window and Linux; that I own a Dell, two HP's, and an iPod; I write software for the Windows platform for a living. Let me also state that I do believe that Apple machines are more expensive than a typical HP or Dell box -- what your paying for is industrial design aka "style"; and, if you find a comparable HP or Dell desktop they're usually on par or pretty close to the Apple price, with the laptops still being slightly pricier. Having gotten that out of the way...
The report has the family buying a Mac Pro -- a workstation class machine???
For hardware upgrades, Apple's online store prices are quoted and then compared to Newegg prices, instead of HP or Dell online store prices.
It quotes an external Bluray drive to upgrade the Mac -- even though they have a Pro chassis to stuff an internal drive into
The report includes the cost for the Apple user to subscribe to Mobile Me, a service they can get for free from somewhere else like Google. It assumes the PC user will use MSN for free...
It has the Apple user buying home office software but not the PC user, you need to buy at least the basic Office pkg
The Apple price includes buying Quicken, software which is not included in the PC price
The cost includes an upgrade for the software on the Apple, but does not include any upgrade costs on the PC
The Apple user pays for software support, the PC user does not
The "Apple Tax" should amount to at most a few hundred dollars, if the report was honest.
Ubuntu 9.04 is still in beta; it is for testing purposes only. Final release is due on the 23rd. Ubuntu has come along way since 7.10. I hope you gave this feedback to the community as we work to making Ubuntu and all other versions of Linux easier to both use and understand as we move toward wider distribution.
sudo apt-get lost
I will agree, Apple notebooks look like they're a quality build, however, that does not reflect reliability.
My Dell Inspiron from July 2004 is still active today with zero issues over the course of nearly 5 years. It still has original 2 batteries and can last several hours on each. No hard drive failure, no battery failure. It doesn't look pretty, and has wide gaps in the plastic.
I also have a Thinkpad from October 2004. Again, no failures, although I upgraded the hard drive to a bigger size. Again, gaps in the plastic pieces, does not have a tight fit and finish.
MacBook? Looks tight. A hard drive failed twice because it overheated. The first time it was replaced under 1-year warranty. The second time, it was out of warranty. The battery started acting up after 1.5 years.
My wife's HP laptop - replaced the motherboard and the battery shortly after 1 year because the battery would not charge. HP did it for free, although it happened 4 months after the warranty ran out. Kudos to HP for service. Sucks for product. Now the CD-RW/DVD drive does not read all DVDs.
What's my conclusion? I don't find any laptop being any more "reliable" than any other laptop on average. The overheating issue with the Macbook makes me less convinced of Apple's supposed reliability.
They made it extensible with a standard port that hasn't changed too much over the years, and managed to get a bunch of other manufacturers to support it with extra gizmos and such (remotes, speakers, etc) from a very early point in the product's history. Anyone wanting to compete with ipods needs to have a plan for fwd hardware compatibility and a product ecosystem, not *just* focus on UI and 'features' in the product. One of the 'features' of an ipod is the ubiquity - any gadget I want has probably been fitted to work with the ipod already.
creation science book
As a dumpster diver, I can tell you that it's pretty much always the software. The hardware is usually 100% operational...
Now components might fail (fans, harddisks, powersupplies are quite typical), but hardware doesn't decay at all in the way you describe.
So, allow me to say: [citation needed]
least 670 if not more on your PC.
My Gaming PC, recently retired to running media center...athlon2800 overclocked, NVIDIA6800, NF7-Sv2 MOBO, 80GB hard drive, 2GB ram....have had it for well more than two years and would play any game on the market. You can put that system together for under $200 now adays easy.
CS: It is all sink or swim...oh and did I mention there are sharks in that water?
Whether or not you are a mac, linux or windows user, I don't know how anyone can say their marketing backfired. Techies read tech press, others do not, so they are unlikely to even hear those voices. Marketing is about creating buzz for your product, and judging by the reactions to MS's latest campaign, it has done that. It's when people don't talk about you at all that you have a problem.
I've never seen any person actually buy the WiFi accessory except for morons. And this is including a whole host of people I know who have 360s who aren't tech savvy. They just plugged their's in to a router via the wired connection. The GGP's attempt to add that in as if it was some sort of mandatory cost (on top of all the other nonsense) just makes the post entirely laughable.
It most likely would. Up until January 2007, I ran a Fujitsu-Siemens P-III 600MHz with 512Meg RAM as my primary laptop. It started to physically fall apart and that's why I replaced it. The hardware itself was fine. Anyway, I bought that laptop second hand from the company I left (which was Fujitsu Siemens) in December 2004, to that's a full 2 years in my possesion. That laptop had already served someone else for about 4 to 5 years. (P-III 600MHz was released when? Fall 1999?)
Before this long-lived laptop I owned a iBook G3 600MHz/640Meg RAM. It died after three years of usage due to logic board failure. Since Apple had already announced the Intel switch, I was not going to invest in a new iBook G4. Oh, and for the record: I treated my iBook like my firstborn and the Fujitsu-Siemens thrown in my backpack more than once.
All I want to say: longevity is just a matter of luck....
(Oh, and another one: my dad uses to this day is P-III 733MHz Dell which he bought new in, no idea... 2000? (We did upgrade the RAM and the harddisk though)
You still haven't convinced me. Why I should pay more now (Apple License and a Windows License) for a mac with bootcamp, when I can just have my regular ole PC (Just a windows license) to play games?
Because if you really are beta and alpha testing games, wouldn't you like a PC that had the games aspect totally isolated from your "working" OS?
With the Mac, you have the choice of running OS X, running Windows in Bootcamp (for games) or running Windows in some kind of VM (for any other Windows app and even some games). Add Linux to any of those variants as well and that's more choice than you get with any other system.
Plus you can use the Windows install you already have so it's not like that's extra - in fact it makes less sense for you to buy a new PC since it duplicates your Windows license.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
It explicitly includes a Mac owned by a child who lives on-campus at a university. However, I doubt the Apple Police are going to come after anyone because they live in off-campus housing but still use their parents' family pack license.
Technically, most macs sold in 2001 can't run higher than 10.3, so they wouldn't be upgrading anyway.
Then again, I'm pretty sure most PCs sold in 2001 won't run Vista or Windows 7, either.
A more realistic comparison might be a 1 or 2 year old machine or set of machines to be upgraded.
semantics are everything!
You can put that system together for under $200 now adays easy.
Yeah and have fun not being able to play a whole host of modern games at decent quality.
I'm not the guy claiming that hardware degrades, but longevity of hardware is mostly a matter of luck. I tried explaining that above to another poster too.
Transistor degradation such as gate-oxide breakdown and hot-electron effects will effect transistor performance. Eventually the chip will fail, but not suddenly. Basically, the chip will be closed for x cycles, however, its not capable of pulling that off. Eventually the difference is too great and it will fail. Transistors don't always work at the same speed and then fail, they degrade. Most electronics degrade, thats what eventually leads to failure, but not some sort of binary failure of "it either works or it doesn't."
I'm not saying there will be a drastic change in speed, but it will be there assuming you use the device frequently.
I posted this in response to someone else...
Transistor degradation such as gate-oxide breakdown and hot-electron effects will effect transistor performance. Eventually the chip will fail, but not suddenly. Basically, the chip will be clocked for x cycles, however, its not capable of pulling that off. Eventually the difference is too great and it will fail. Transistors don't always work at the same speed and then fail, they degrade. Most electronics degrade, thats what eventually leads to failure, but not some sort of binary failure of "it either works or it doesn't."
I'm not saying there will be a drastic change in speed, but it will be there assuming you use the device frequently.
Wikipedia transistor degradation if you'd like. I'm not going out of my way to do research, just know it exists and its not difficult to find. I don't have to convince you. If you actually want to know, you'd do the research, if you refuse to believe it, you won't, there's really not much I can do beyond that.
I'm tired of people saying their apple runs just as good four years later. Its almost technically impossible. Hardware degrades. It has nothing to do with the OS and no, the component quality in a macbook is *not* that much better than what you'd find in a high-end laptop. I guarantee you its NOT running as well as the first day you bought it, you just can't admit it to yourself. No CPU, RAM, harddrive, etc etc etc is going to run as well as it did after four years of usage unless its never getting used in which case the same principles can be applied to any other computer.
...says someone who's never used one. It's not the hardware that degrades, it's MS Windows that degrades, what with all that spyware and virus and bot crap. And those cheaply built Dulls.
Five year old Macs are still quite usable, because Apple isn't cramming more crap into the OS every other year to force people to upgrade. You just don't get to run Parallels Desktop on PowerPC. OS X so far has been consistently able to run the latest version on a five year old machine. But Vista was barely able to run on many computers that it was shipped on when it was new.
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
Transistor degradation. I went more in depth in other posts, but I don't feel like repeating myself to multiple people. If you're curious look it up, if you don't feel like changing your mind, ignore me like you would have even if I did the research for you.
I didn't say Apple didn't use higher quality, I just said not by much. Plus, you're comparing Dell components which are vastly cheaper than Apple's. At a time however, they *did* get their components from the same manufacturers.
I had a trawl through the Ubuntu forums and found that other people had reported the same bug (ATI Rage Mobility M4 chipset). I'll certainly be trying the final release of 9.04 (the Wi-Fi functionality was a very pleasant surprise) to see if the graphics issue is cured. If not, I'm just going to revert that machine back to completely XP, rather than Win/Lin dual-boot.
Squirrel!
I was recently in a situation ( rented apartment ) where the WiFi would have been a mandatory cost as I wasn't allow to run cables anywhere ( through the wall or otherwise ). Perhaps the GGGP was/is in a similar situation?
The disappearing pencil trick. Let me show you it.
*clocked for x cycles.
I have to buy all that to run windows on a PC? you've convinced me. wait. Oh, this is a completely unrelated rant? now I get it.
I'm an Apple fan. I own 2 MacBook Pro's, a Mac mini, and a Power Mac G5. Notice I still have a Power Mac G5. It needs to go but what do I replace it with? Spend $3000 - $4000 for a new Mac Pro? Or settle for an iMac. Thats out of the question. No expandability. Plus it will cost another $700 to upgrade to 8GB of memory because it only contains two memory slots and 4GB DDR3 modules are not cheap. Alternative: Build my own machine for around $1500 - $2000 and hope that I can get OS X to run on it. I run Final Cut Pro so Linux is out of the question. Now if Adobe ever released Photoshop and Premiere, I would probably move back to Linux.
Agreed - I actually took an old router that only had one working Ethernet port, flashed it with DD-WRT, and made it an Ethernet bridge. I do have the official adapter as well, but I bought that afterward when a friend who was selling his Xbox offered it for $20.
Sure it's nice when I take my Xbox with me various places because I can always find a Wi-Fi signal and it's very easy to configure, but unless you get a great deal like I did it's really not worth it.
Well gee, of course an all-Apple household would cost more... because after all, previous studies have already show that MacHeads are more honest than their Windows brethren... so likewise, MacHeads are obviously more likely to pay for all of their software (as well as their media files) instead of pirating it, right? ;-)
Well... that, or both studies are contrived and worth less then the ad-click-throughs that they generated for the sites reporting on them. Like Mark Twain was so fond of saying... "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies... and statistics."
The white first gen macbooks certainly had issues. I believe they were the first to attempt a matte finish white plastic case for a laptop computer, which was bound to cause issues with discoloration. There was one bad run of white topcase plastic that stained from skin oil and makeup, though the rest were ok.
Whereas the aluminum models, ever since they replaced the titaniums, (I don't know about the new unibody) had a finish that would be etched by skin oils of some people. Like me. It made some nice pits where my palms rest. That's why I got a Marware pad for my newest one. And the tops of the keyboard keys would erode over time from my fingernails with normal typing.
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
I don't know what hardware you are dealing with, but I expect most of my computer hardware to work for several years without any degradation at all. I'll allow that hard drives or fans might fail, and hard drives might develop bad sectors. But the CPU, motherboard, RAM and pretty much everything else shouldn't degrade at all in a 5 year period, especially if you clean out the dust now and then. Laptops certainly might have problems due to the abuse they experience, but they should not just "degrade". The only reason any computer on any OS should get any slower is from too much crap getting installed (or subconsciously comparing it to a newer computer) and should be fixed by a clean install. At the most you might need a new hard drive if the hard drive is going bad.
Ugh.... It's "affect".... But that's not the issue here.
like this? You should start an article, don't you think?
Technically, what you are telling me is that my parents server, a machine bought in 1999, should be extremely slow. It's been running 24/7 for the last 5 years or so. (Same thing for my dads laptop, which was bought in 2000, IIRC... but that one doesn't run 24/7, but at least a couple of hours a day)
I'm not saying it doesn't degrade, I'm not an electrical engineer, but if it does, the effects are insignificant. If it slows down 0.0001% (number pulled from somewhere very dark), it simply doesn't matter.
This is not about belief. You asserted something, and I asked you some evidence. You said, wikipedia it, but there is no article. Google does have some interesting links, but nothing that I can comprehend. Where is the article for the layman, stating that after (for example) 5 years with moderate usage, his computer will run at about 25% of original performance? Not everyone is an electrical engineer, and I cannot asses such things.
A lot of people, for example, don't care about FireWire 800, 802.11n, or ExpressCard, or dual-layer DVD-RW, and a machine lacking these can easily be cheaper.
Or, for that matter, quiet. Geeks comparing printed specs are deaf, unless they've actually bothered to cost out quiet computing.
While desktop Macs aren't silent, they're generally very quiet, and it carries tangible value.
I couldn't build a silent small-form hackintosh with IPS monitor for video editing for the same price I got a refurb iMac 24", it would have been about $150 (+ shipping) more just in parts from ncix, plus lots of labour and a dozen different warranties to worry about.
Damn those pesky terrorists
"If you want to play any games from the last couple of years you would have spent at least 670 if not more on your PC."
WRONG!!! You are the weakest link!
$350 for my 2.6GHz AM2 Athlon64X2, 4GB PC-5300 DDR2, 2TB HDD space, and a 512MB 9800GTX+ superclocked with a 700w Rocketfish PSU.
You must be a Best Buy consumer.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
I BUY macs for all of my relatives after their PCs have died. It saves me time and money.
I wonder how fast i can make my PC "die" so that you can buy me one of those slick, sexy and resellable Macs?
I don't mind if you ask me: "Who's your daddy?" at all you know...
I was recently in a situation ( rented apartment ) where the WiFi would have been a mandatory cost as I wasn't allow to run cables anywhere ( through the wall or otherwise ).
Then run it around the baseboards to your router. It's really not that hard.
You really ended up purchasing lots of "small" apps for the Mac? I've found that Shareware in the Mac community blows away the Windows community by about x100. There are a TON of non-crippled apps for the Mac that are shareware, way more so then on Windows.
http://macupdate.com/
http://versiontracker.com/
With the first link, the chain is forged.
Years ago, for those old enough to remember, Macs were criticized for being "toy" computers. They were unlike the computers that were used to do "real" work. In those days, "real" work meant a command line.
Today, Macs are criticized for not having enough games.
I think that it's funny.
un-ALTERED reproduction and dissimination of this IMPORTANT information is ENCOURAGED
Hm, maybe this is just like the "Linux myths" campaign of years ago. Just a place to consolidate all the talking points. Accuracy or even honesty are not important. What matters is putting workable arguments in the mouths of opinion formers, which in the Windows ecosystem are usually store sales people, support "IT guys" and the neighbor's kid. They don't need to know a lot to defend or even understand the arguments. They just need to sound like they know what they're talking about and this kind of article does that for them. The real news to me is the fact that MS seems to be worried enough to launch a campaign against Apple.
$350 for my 2.6GHz AM2 Athlon64X2, 4GB PC-5300 DDR2, 2TB HDD space, and a 512MB 9800GTX+ superclocked with a 700w Rocketfish PSU.
That's such a bullshit lie. I priced out all those things (including the cheapest ones for each part I could find) and the cost was 500 dollars. Besides you don't even mention the case or any DVD/CD/ drives, the network card, sound card or any other vital pieces of hardware for gaming. Adding in all those even with the cheapest parts push it over 600 dollars.
You must be a Best Buy consumer.
Nope, build my computers from wholesale parts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbJSuduTrPs&feature=player_embedded
I'd rather have a Mac, tax or not.
Except that you don't have to buy memory from Apple. Get the base system from them, there's no tax there. And go buy memory at the best price you can get. This is just Apple saying they don't want to be in the accessory market...
I guess I'm a moron then. We bought the WiFi accessory (but not for $100, it came in a well priced bundle) because the console gets played in various rooms in the house and dragging a cable around through hallways and up and down stairs didn't seem to make much sense.
MacHeads are obviously more likely to pay for all of their software (as well as their media files) instead of pirating it, right?
So that's why the report included Microsoft Office as a cost on the Mac side and not on the PC side. Microsoft's saying "It's OK, go ahead and boost a copy of Office from work... so long as it's on Windows".
And in case you want to see how I did it: AMD Athlon 64 LE-1640 Orleans 2.6GHz: $46 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103239
Rendition by Crucial 1GB 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 667: $10 ($40 for 4GB) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148240
HITACHI 0A38016 1TB: $85 ($170 for 2GB) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822145233
ZOTAC ZT-98PES3P-FCP GeForce 9800 GTX+ 512MB: $130 http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010380048+1305520548+106792522+1067942261&Configurator=&Subcategory=48&description=&Ntk=&SpeTabStoreType=&srchInDesc=
COOLMAX CTI-700B 700W: $55 http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010320058+113142557&Configurator=&Subcategory=58&description=&Ntk=&SpeTabStoreType=&srchInDesc= Now that doesn't include case, DVD drive and motherboard but your price is already $441 and at least $500 with a motherboard. I bought a 360 Pro and with my 3 years of Xbox Live and having bought 1 extra controller I've barely spent $500. So any claims that a PC is cheaper than a 360 with Xbox Live is just false.
Things that are comparable to some degree:
Linux, OSX, Vista
Also:
Dell, Mac, Gateway, Alineware.
Things that are not comparable:
Mac and Linux
Mac and Vista
Mac and OSx
OSx and Dell
OSx and AlienWare.
By comparable, I mean they are in the same area, so you can comparable them, not comparable as in '
the same'.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I used OS X as my primary desktop for two years.
I'm coming up on two years of daily use, and have just switched from Tiger to Leopard a few weeks ago, FWIW.
The one thing going for it is that it's pretty. Other than that, it's unnecessarily slow, has a shitty filesystem, is no more stable than XP and certainly not Vista, always had issues sleeping and waking, ilife was buggy (specifically iPhoto), is only secure through obscurity (as we've seen with the recent pwn2own contest).
Never had a problem with it being slow. At tasks like video encoding, it's faster than my desktop, which is a 2.6 GHz dual-core Opteron. In terms of user experience, the slowest thing I've experienced is waiting for Word or OpenOffice to launch, neither of which are known for being fast applications.
Not sure what "shitty filesystem" means. In terms of actual everyday usage, it's fine for me. Spotlight is amazing, so I rarely use the Finder, which admittedly does kind of suck (why does pressing "Enter" on a file take me to rename it?). At least as good, if not better, than Google desktop search, and Windows Desktop Search is horrid by comparison.
Stability? Yeah, I'd say same as XP - in my experience both are very stable, and single app crashes don't bring down the whole system. I've had maybe three or four hard lockups in nearly two years. Vista? I tried it a year ago and gave up.
Never, ever had a problem with sleeping or waking. Maybe you have a hardware issue.
I don't use iLife/iPhoto/iMovie/iTunes. Front Row is pretty, but this is primarily a work/school machine, and I don't care for Apple's "user-friendly" applications, which to me feel far too confining.
So yeah, YMMV. I'll tell you what did suck, though - using Ubuntu on this MacBook. PITA to install and configure, and when I was finally done, had hard lockups every time I used it. Maybe it's just 8.10.
"Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
Hmm, $3,367 over five years for a household...
Am I the only one who thought that paying an extra $600/year per household to escape the burden of dealing with Windows (for all users, not just non-techie ones) wouldn't be that unreasonable a price?
'Kay, I don't use Ubuntu, but on Gentoo, it was easy: "emerge app-office/openoffice-bin".
MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
Try again. This time with real numbers.
Xbox 360 arcade can handle most saved games. It does after all come with a 512MB memory card.
So $169 from Dell if you're patient.
Xbox Live Gold is $30 a month if you buy it in January. So 5 years = $150
That's all you need $319 for 5 years of gaming. (Of course then games etc.)
I don't need Wifi. I use a primitive technology called CAT5. Since there is a conveniently placed cable plug right next to my television.
Meanwhile I just built a quadcore system and it cost me about $1200. Impossible to buy as a mac. And also a fare penny more than my Xbox which I own not because it's cheaper but because it's a better gaming system.
Microsoft's new advertising push is focused on something they call the "Apple Tax," the notion that the relative cost differential between PC's and Macintosh computers amounts to an unfair surcharge for their products.
Apparently, the company's marketing wizards have surmised that after a quarter century of personal computing, no one has ever bothered to look from one price tag to another to notice that Macs cost more. And who can blame them? Consumers are busy people. Microsoft knows that, which is why they hired actors to do the comparison shopping for them.
For example, someone could buy a Vista-powered laptop for $1200 that would operate at full speed for about ten months before clogging up with registry errors, worms, and a tangled mesh of incompatible third party software and drivers. On the other hand, that same person could pay up to $200 MORE for a laptop that, according to customer feedback, works trouble-free for several years.
As you can see, the numbers just don't add up in Apple's favor- especially if you completely ignore issues like stability and reliability, which Microsoft has for decades.
What Apple doesn't want people to know is that Microsoft's Vista is a fantastic operating system for people who don't know much about computers and don't plan on using them very much.
In some sense, it comes down to temperament.
Mac users, it seems, just aren't cut out for the PC life. They're type-A personalities who push the power button and expect things to happen. For whatever reason, these special snowflakes seem to think that they feel they deserve a working computer just because they paid for it. They run several memory-intensive apps at the same time and when something does go wrong, it's such a rare occurrence that the spoiled brats actually have the temerity to get upset about it.
On those occasions, they flood Apple with complaints and demands that the company improve their products- as if they're special or something. Imagine how expensive PCs would be if Microsoft had to constantly tweak their products for better security and usability. Ridiculous, I know. That's why PC customers are lucky that Microsoft made the decision long ago to forego these areas and pass the savings onto users who would then, in turn, pass that money onto anti-virus companies.
A PC, on the other hand, teaches you how to take life as it comes, to roll with the never-ending series of punches that life, and this sparking metal and plastic brick in your den, have thrown your way. There's something very Zen about the PC user experience. When you encounter a catastrophic crash and lose your family photos, you blame yourself for not backing up regularly enough. When you re-install the OS for the third time in a year you completely understand when tech support informs you that you need to buy a whole new license or a new computer. You learn acceptance.
Buying a dogmeat-cheap PC is penny wise. You've suspected this all along, and thanks to Microsoft's new ad campaign, now everybody knows it. If your expectations and self-esteem are low enough, perhaps you too can be a PC.
and say Microsoft is great for let's say $10,000. I think this is less than what they paid. Think M$, I can do the same thing cheaper.
I would love to buy a 17" mac, but every time I look at the price it insults me.
I find it really difficult to make the case that macs are not significantly overpriced, especially for people who use macs primarily as a windows machine. The paper points out the obvious: spec-for-spec, PCs destroy macs in terms of value.
The only way I can see anyone justifying paying this premium is if they're dead-set on use OS X. Otherwise, it's a waste of money.
Note that I'm not saying that macs are bad --they're fantastic. But Mercedes are also fantastic, but are overpriced compared to similarly equipped cars.
And as for market share, Apple doesn't *want* a large market share. If they did, they would lower their prices. They have a strategy that gives them insane margins, and it works. In would be crazy for them to wade into the low-margin ring that Dell, HP, et al fight in.
If you have Apple stuff then chicks know you have money or at least you did have it. I guess that could work the other way too.
Do you want a Cadillac or VW beetle, that is the question.
find the Green computer. Just list how much more green the Apple systems are.
At the end, have them choose the 1500 Mac notebook.
Go after the hardware.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
If they didn't want to be, they wouldn't.
You will shoot back with...well they have to be because they need to sell replacements if things break. OK fine. But why the masive gouge? That is really what it is, a MASSIVE gouge on their sheep.
I'll try anything once. Twice if it tastes good
No you can't. Not one the high performance games anyways.
Price out a 200 dollars system that can run a performance game at a decent resolution.
You will need to spend at least a 100 bucks for the video card alone. Another 20 bucks for a really cheap case, and another 80 for a decent power supply.
You could squeeze a system into 500 bucks, but it will not be running next years games. 1000 bucks and you can build one that will last 4 years.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I didn't mention other parts because I do the SMART thing and reuse parts that still work, like case, DVD, and I can bet you don't have half a clue on where to get the good stuff for dirt cheap.
Quit being a pretentious assuming prick. I can do it for that price because I've been in this industry for nearly two decades. I know the good sources, I also know where I can find the same stuff probably cheaper from someone else second hand. Are you that ignorant of where you can go to buy things? You can find similar systems in pawn shops for $150!
God, you have a lot of growing up to do if you don't know about things like pawn shops and second-hand merchandise.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
No. They have to because people expect them to. They can't just say "go buy your memory some place else." People expect them to offer it. So they do. For a price. I don't think they make a lot of profit from ram sticks though, despite the huge markup. I just don't believe a lot of people buy ram from Apple.
> Not sure if it will be in Jaunty or not, but Ubuntu is working on a fix for that.
Oh! So Ubuntu will finally catch up to where Fedora has been for a couple of years. Fedora has had repos installable as packages for a long time. CLick here to add the Adobe Flash repo, etc.
Maybe in a few more years it will backport to Debian?
Kinda like the Debian based distributions only recently got GPG signed packages while RPM has had PGP signing since before GPG was available.
Maybe someday the Debian based systems will get bi-arch and make 64bit a seamless experience instead of basically stuffing a whole seperate 32 bit system into a chroot. Oh, but dpkg/apt doesn't support that either.
Yet in any distro comparison thread we hear the zealots proclaim Apt-get the ultimate and whinge that if RPM would just go away we would have much better world with only one package format.
Democrat delenda est
See, your problem is you're shopping at Newegg. Newegg isn't even close to being a first-tier source.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
The xbox online play annoys me no end...
I want the freedom to play on my own servers, not be forced to use company supplied ones.
I want to be able to play lan games, sometimes in places with no internet connection (getting a bunch of friends together in a hall somewhere is great fun).
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
Computers are no "investment". But that most PC machines are virtually worthless after a few years and Macs still sell for good money is just a fact.
Okay, then show me where you got the components and the prices of them. I'm doubting you only paid 350 dollars. Either that or you are intentionally leaving out the prices of things like the case, motherboard, dvd drive, etc to make your claim.
Not to defend Apple here, but please explain to me how, for example, a CPU or RAM "degrades".
I think after a while, bits fall off...
< *ducks* >
May contain traces of nut.
Made from the freshest electrons.
Bullllllllllllllllllllllshiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit.
$200 IF
You use an old mouse, keyboard, cd drive, hard drive, case, monitor, etc.
You steal windows / scrap your existing machine's installation. (Or you could run WINE, but support isn't perfect, especially for newer titles or STEAM)
When people claim you can build PC X for $Y, they always leave out the details. Most people DON'T have spare parts lying around, or, if they do, don't WANT to use their shitty old parts.
I always build my own. But there is no denying that for budget-based builds, Dell wins every fucking time, plus you get damned easy support and you won't have to dig through some Taiwanese site or wait for Newegg to process an RMA. Their hardware (motherboards and power supplies) are lame, sure. But the CPU, GPU, and other components are the same shit you would get off of Newegg. The cases (interior) are well designed now (yeah, they used to be terrible) and give you room to upgrade later. Plus, the damned thing comes built. Sure, it's fun building a PC, but I have yet to experience a blood-free build, and wire management is always a bitch.
Case in point, for $499:
Intel Core 2 Duo E7400 (2.8GHz, 3M, L2Cache, 1066FSB)
2GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM 800MHz - 2DIMMs
Dell 22 inch Widescreen E2209WFP Analog Flat Panel Display (It says analog, but yes, it has DVI-D)
250GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache
256MB ATI Radeon HD 3450 -supports DVI,HDMI,VGA Connections
Single Drive: 16X (DVD+/-RW) Burner Drive
FREE Genuine Windows Vista Business Bonus w/ XP Professional downgrade Installed
The OS licenses add a lot to the cost, sure, but most people need them.
I don't have an all-Mac house, but we have 2 MBP's, a white MB, and an airport extreme and my costs aren't any higher than if I had all-PC. Student discounts has helped me out a lot. It is just propaganda. Buy a Mac if you want to, if not, don't. Nothing to see here.
I can do it for that price because I've been in this industry for nearly two decades. I know the good sources, I also know where I can find the same stuff probably cheaper from someone else second hand
Which makes your point on this thread about as useful as "health care is cheap, just take out your own appendix!"
So I'm sitting on the couch watching TV and this commercial comes on. It's about this guy who is going to buy a laptop and Microsoft is going to pay for it. So he's looking around the store and there's a large variety of PCs around, and he's looking at them all, being very picky.
Then he comes across this Mac and he says something about people who like Macs are about pretty things, I think that's what he said. So I think to myself, Vista WASEN'T about making the OS look nicer?
So the commercial goes on, guy buys a PC. Then the ad states something like PCs are best buy for your dollar (over MAC). Well there's so many things wrong with this statement. Microsoft has no control over the price of laptops, that's controlled by the vendors. Microsoft still charges you for the operating system, it's just rolled into the price of the laptop. Yes, Mac does the same, but when it comes time to format your Mac or replace your hard drive or something, you don't need some damn key to do it. It's a Mac, you paid for the Mac, that means you paid for the OS. That's great.
I'm a Linux guy and I like not paying for software. I also like making that software better. Sometimes I wish Canonical, Novel or RedHat would put in their two cents worth. Then again it might be better that Microsoft seem a little schizophrenic. Anyway, Linux isn't about the corporation or sales figures.
The moral of the story: don't watch TV, especially commercials.
Except you seem to be oblivious to the conversation that was going on. The person I was responding to was comparing the costs of a brand new Xbox and all other components involved were also the retail price of new components. You are talking about secondhand shit and pawnshops which isn't even remotely a comparable situation to the one we were talking about and one in which almost no consumer is going to also do. They are going to either go to a place like Newegg/FRYS, to an OEM like Dell or some local computer dealer who isn't going to get them a PC like you mentioned for only 350 dollars.
But usually the lower priced value for money guys are the bottom feeding under dogs while their competition has the market share and huge margins and chic image. Here it is topsy turvy that is new.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
I leave out those prices because I reuse components. Same Case for years, same power supply for years. Same SBLive! from 7 years ago. Same speaker system. SAME INTERNAL CABLES.
Go to pricewatch.com. Even NEWEGG advertises on Pricewatch, and they don't show up very often at all in my searches for the exact hardware I want.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
So if we are going to play the game of secondhand parts I can get a 360 with controller, Hard drive and Wifi all used priced out for less than 250 dollars. Throw in 2 years of Xbox Live and it's still less than your purported system. So basically that makes the original poster's and your point even more moot.
Okay, I'll bite.
Release dates:
2001: OSX 10.0/.1, Windows XP
2002: OSX 10.2
2003: OSX 10.3
2005: OSX 10.4
2007: OSX 10.5, Vista (retail)
True, but maybe Microsoft should try this too? It may cost more in the long run, but in the short it feels cheaper. Also, Microsoft keeps on wanting to go the subscription route, but if they provided incremental upgrades that people wanted, then people would spend money as if it was a subscription.
It should be noted that Linux also goes though just a many yearly revisions as MacOS X, with Ubuntu leading the pack. I think bite sized improvements help people stay interested and also means each release is trying to focus on less features but push more quality.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
So basically you're trying to compare the cost of a system built with reused and secondhand parts to a discussion with someone who was pricing out a brand new 360, brand new 360 hard drive, brand new WiFi accessory and brand new controller with recharger? Yeah those are totally analogous situations. Since they were pricing out everything as brand new to try to make a claim that the Xbox 360 is more expensive than PC gaming then it's only analogous to price out new PC parts. Using secondhand and reused parts as a way to lower the price on the PC while not doing the same by pricing out a used 360 and accessories is disingenuous at best. I suggest you actually read and comprehend the conversation that is going on before you just throw yourself into it with guns blazing.
It's like arguing that a shovel is better than a rake.
Different operating systems and different computers have different feature sets are are intended for different applications.
I have Linux machines, Macs, Windows, and Solaris. Each has its place and each is useful. I don't really worry too much about which is "better".
Even if there is an Apple tax, amortize it over the life of the computer and it's pennies a day.
The price of the computer is just about irrelevant when you consider the value of all the time you spend in front of it.
Fedora has had repos installable as packages for a long time. CLick here to add the Adobe Flash repo, etc.
Cool. Yes, the Debian world needs that as well.
Maybe someday the Debian based systems will get bi-arch and make 64bit a seamless experience instead of basically stuffing a whole seperate 32 bit system into a chroot.
Actually, last I heard the Debian team was working on multi-arch, rather than bi-arch. I won't go into the details, but it's a much more powerful and flexible concept. Of course, that also means it's more complex and slower to get done...
Oh, and the current solution isn't to use a 32-bit chroot. What Debian systems do is install 32-bit binaries and libs in a particular set of paths. Effectively the same file structure as you'd get with bi-arch, but of course for now those 32-bit-files-in-64-bit-packages have to pretend to be 64 bit so that they can be installed and managed.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
I am so tired of the "all Apple gives for the extra charge is style" flawed analysis that I have to respond to this. It is utter nonsense--most Apple buyers, when pooled mention ease of use. power, flexibility and reliability over style. Style is the icing on the cake not the core reason to buy. This is the same bogus emotional ignore the facts appeal as the Republicans used to call the Democrats tax and spend, even though Republican presidents spend more and, worse, borrow to do it. Not quite the whole story, you are also paying a robust 32- and 64-bit UNIX with a remarkably easy to use GUI and free apps for video, photos, mail, web publishing, and more that few commercial apps rival n terms of ease of use. There are otehr platforms advantages too: I can run OS X, many falvors of Windows (in VM or mative boot), plus many flavors of UNIX and Linux in VM on one machine.On my 8-core 13GB Mac Pro right now I have running: OS X Leopard, Ubuntu Server 8.10, SuSe 10 desktop, and Window Vista Home Premium 64-bit. I am cross-developing OpenGL/SDL and Qt apps for all three platforms on OS X using UNIX tools. No other OS or System let's me do that on one box at one time. Plus Final Cut Studio kicks a*s compared to Similarly-priced Windows alternatives.
If we're going that route, let's start checking the failure rate of the 360 versus failure rate of PC parts, and let's do a comparative overhead cost.
Oh, and for every game you pay to play online, the same PC version doesn't require such nonsense.
There's lots more to think about, we could keep this up all day. How about all that lost time waiting for your stuff to be repaired or replaced? There's the factor of convenience.
All around, a PC is the way to go. Hell, we're already working on emulating the PS3 and the 360, and PS2 and XBOX emulation is nearly rock solid. PS3 Emulation won't really be possible without an 8 core machine and some killer programming, but it could be done. 360 Emulation would require at least a quad-core, but since the 360 uses almost identical hardware that the PS3 uses emulating one should lead to emulating the other eventually, once the hardware itself is understood.
Give me a minute and let me reboot my computer into arcade mode so I can record you a video of something your 360 sure as hell can't do - let you program your own ultimate fighting game.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
My parents bought a G5 tower about a year and a half ago. New, shiny, and sleek. The machine came with all of the software that they needed.
To date, they have installed the following applications that they've paid for(or cost money - they're not pirating it, either):
Apple may be more expensive initially, but it's perfectly possible to pay the same as Linux for the software that you use. this blows a huge hole in Microsoft's claims.
You can not build it for $200. The unfortunate problem is that a gaming PC must have a copy of Windows on it. A legitimate copy is going to run you $75-100 by itself. This is why I stopped building PCs myself, with a Windows License, Dell and HP will come out cheaper than parts. Unless of course you get sucked into the high markup "add-ons", it is usually a better deal. I'm sure they only pay in the $40-$50 range for the license which sucks because I not a volume dealer I get charged twice as much.
If we're going that route, let's start checking the failure rate of the 360 versus failure rate of PC parts, and let's do a comparative overhead cost.
You mean the overhead cost of having the thing paid to be shipped back to Microsoft to be fixed? You mean all of 0 dollars? Secondly, I have not had a single issue with my 360 in 3 years nor anyone else I know.
Oh, and for every game you pay to play online, the same PC version doesn't require such nonsense.
I already factored in the price of Xbox Live into the cost. You really seem to have poor reading comprehension. I'll quote myself:
Throw in 2 years of Xbox Live and it's still less than your purported system.
Xbox Live via subscription cards has will cost you around 35-45 dollars depending on where you buy them. Adding that to the cost of a used 360 with used HD and used controller is barely 320 bucks.
There's lots more to think about, we could keep this up all day. How about all that lost time waiting for your stuff to be repaired or replaced? There's the factor of convenience.
So you never have to wait for things to be repaired or replaced when you have a PC? That's an amusing claim.
All around, a PC is the way to go.
In your opinion. Others would disagree.
Hell, we're already working on emulating the PS3 and the 360
Yeah and it's going to take huge computing requirements to do so and you are never going to get remotely the same level of support for games that the consoles will provide. You still don't get full compatibility for all PS2 games on PC emulators and those have been out for ages.
and PS2 and XBOX emulation is nearly rock solid.
Sure for a fraction of all games. There are tons of PS2 games that have little or no compatibility.
PS3 Emulation won't really be possible without an 8 core machine and some killer programming, but it could be done.
So basically you spend more on the PC to emulate the PS3 than to just buy a PS3? Brilliant idea!
360 Emulation would require at least a quad-core, but since the 360 uses almost identical hardware that the PS3 uses emulating one should lead to emulating the other eventually, once the hardware itself is understood.
Actually not it won't. The hardware of the two systems is drastically different in many cases.
Give me a minute and let me reboot my computer into arcade mode so I can record you a video of something your 360 sure as hell can't do - let you program your own ultimate fighting game.
Because most gamers care about that? Oh wait, they don't.
Go to pricewatch.com. Even NEWEGG advertises on Pricewatch, and they don't show up very often at all in my searches for the exact hardware I want.
Funny cause I did that and it doesn't help your case.
2.6ghz AM2 process: $52 9800GTX+ 512MB: $122 2 1 TB HDDs: $162 4 GB RAM: $36. 700 W PSU: $40
That's still a price of $412 all from the lowest prices on all those items at pricewatch. Including a motherboard makes it over 450 dollars. Sorry, but that didn't help your claim.
No but a lot of people rather not have cables running everywhere and unless you have your PC and 360 in the same room you'll end up running cable.
Secondly, MS likes to brag that the 360 is cheaper than the PS3. However the PS3 has more features out of the box, like wifi so you don't have to clutter your house up so everyone thinks you're a dirty pikey. If you want a comprable package from MS it costs as much if not more than a PS3 because MS does charge extortionate rates for their peripherals knowing full well that people will want them.
Why are linux users scratching their heads?
Because they are the ones paying for software that they do not use!
Regardless of whether the machine they buy is set up with MS or Mac software, they have to pay for a preloaded OS that they have no intention of using.
How bout an article on how buyers should not be forced to buy ANY proprietary, expensive, unnecessary, software with their hardware purchase?
How bout giving consumers the choice to keep $150 of their hard earned money in exchange for not recieving software that they have no intention to use?
Oh, and for every game you pay to play online, the same PC version doesn't require such nonsense.
Well unless you want to play an MMO that isn't a Korean POS. The same 35 dollars I pay a year for Live would buy me less than 3 months of playing either WoW, EQ/EQ2, EVE Online, etc.
"You mean the overhead cost of having the thing paid to be shipped back to Microsoft to be fixed?"
No, the price you're going to have to pay later on for their next-gen system in order to recoup from the major losses this system has caused.
"So you never have to wait for things to be repaired or replaced when you have a PC? That's an amusing claim."
I can go pick up a part needed to fix my system in ten minutes or less and have it installed and running. Have fun waiting weeks for your replacement 360!
"You still don't get full compatibility for all PS2 games on PC emulators and those have been out for ages."
The only incompatible games are the new ones being released on the PS2 (Persona 4, for instance) and usually the only reason for that incompatibility is the BIOS revision one uses.
"There are tons of PS2 games that have little or no compatibility."
See above.
"So basically you spend more on the PC to emulate the PS3 than to just buy a PS3? Brilliant idea!"
By the time it works, the hardware required to run it will be cheaper than the system at initial launch. You don't think about time, do ya?
"Actually not it won't. The hardware of the two systems is drastically different in many cases."
BZZT. Both use IBM's Cell-based hardware. Better go re-check who has investments in which console.
"Because most gamers care about that? Oh wait, they don't."
Gamers care about entertainment value per dollar. I'm getting FAR more out of my second-hand or first-sourced stuff than you are with a next-gen console. You're just NOW getting stuff like Netflix and whatnot for your 360 - we've had it since it was out. The PC gets all the fun stuff, consoles just try to play catch-up and lock you into their stuff.
Your main argument, way up there, was pretty much hinting at entertainment value. Try beating a PC in the hands of someone that knows how to use it. You won't. Consoles are copying computers, nowdays. Might as well buy a computer!
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
Wow! I remember 1998, too :D
RPMs and DEBs are just different. While I am a fan of apt-get, they make a lot of assumptions and take away from a lot of the configurability that an rpm allows. Of course, the same old argument between Linuc and Windows in general, is that it is whether or not it is useful to the average individual to take the time to learn the difference, and as usual no, but just the same, that is no reason to take such configurability away. Most people never install anything ever, especially not system "stuff". So where is the line? Each to their own :)
:) as for what apt-get does is store the metadata such that it can know what script sets have already been run, and if others need to be run, etc. The limits comes down to what the package maintainer chooses to put in their install script.
I find it funny, and a little sad when I hear people trying to tell other people what to do or how to standardize Linux. If you make hardware and you would like your hardware to work with other peoples hardware, and both pieces of hardware are in development, then there is room to suggest a standard and find some way for your stuff to work together in the end. On the otherhand, if someone writes a great program, but only specifies dependencies in a README, but never bothers to package it, you have three(ish) basic options: 1) Deal with the fact that it isn't package and compile it yourself. 2) wait for someone to package it for your system, then install it, or 3) Package it yourself.
Not to make it out to be more work than it is, but packaging takes time and effort. From what I have seen, programmers are almost always a different group of people from package maintainers. Any project that packages its own software likely has the job of just package maintenance.
deb packages are also very configurable. I don't think there is anything they can't do. Technically, there is nothing in its design to stop someone from a deb package running the binary every time you install it and never actually installing anything. Just the same, debs can install repositories, it just isn't standard to do that. Personally, I think it is better to let people choose whether or not they want their installed third party software to be self maintaining along with the rest of the system. If there is a repo, make note of it on the website and in the documentation. All a deb has is metadata, install script, uninstall script, and files. This means debs can do anything scripts and files can do.
rpms are easier to build and maintain. debs are much more of a pain in the ass. debs are convenient for the vast majority of users, and they are a lot of work. Would deb users like to see every project out there have a deb available? Of course! But at the sacrifice of development time, or your own? Even if debs were "always better in every way", you are only talking about an end product and not the time that went into putting it together.
So whenever I hear someone say "I wish there was a deb", I say "Your probably not alone, why don't you go do that! Never done package maintenance? Wonderful, here's the manual and if next week you are still confused, i'd be happy to walk you through it."
Linux is about personal responsibility that can ideally easily benefit everyone, imo. Not everyone can really handle that.
And you're not paying attention to CPU/Mobo/Memory combo deals, either.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
There is no Ninnle?
Bull.
I wrote Ninnle!
I just haven't publicized it, so it's not on Google!
You can't prove a negative!!!!!11lol!!
"City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
D'oh!!
"City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
Private servers. I don't pay for WoW (not that I'd even play it,) and there are tons of free MMOs out there that do not suck. And Graphics do not make the game.
And Maietz: Gunz is not a Korean POS. Do you even bother looking that deep into the gaming community or are you just a surface corporate player?
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
http://www.groklaw.net/articlebasic.php?story=20071023002351958
There is a section on evangelism steps to take to build support, which he calls guerilla marketing, or "The Slog" and and that's the section that includes using supposedly "independent" analysts and consultants:
-- Analysts: Analysts sell out - that's their business model. But they are very concerned that they never look like they are selling out, so that makes them very prickly to work with.
-- Consultants: These guys are your best bets as moderators. Get a well-known consultant on your side early, but don't let him publish anything blatantly pro-Microsoft. Then, get him to propose himself to the conference organizers as a moderator, whenever a panel opportunity comes up. Since he's well- known, but apparently independent, he'll be accepted - one less thing for the constantly-overworked conference organizer to worry about, right?
The source for the original document written by James Plamondon, first trainer of "Technical Evangelists" (TE) for Microsoft, is at the Comes vs Microsoft lawsuit website. An article titled "Evangelism is War!", px03096.pdf, page 53.
The "Slog" and the "Stacked Panel" are very interesting reads and describes EXACTLY how Microsoft stuffed the ISO committees when it stuffed the OOXML "standard" down IT's throat. It also explains what they are doing NOW with the European FOSS Strategy paper. http://wikileaks.org/wiki/How_to_Hijack_an_EU_Open_Source_Strategy_Paper
Running with Linux for over 20 years!
It's doubly weird because Microsoft only makes software (and a few peripherals) for PCs. The campaign would make a lot more sense if it was being run by one of the companies who actually make the computers that are featured...like Dell, HP, etc.
Think about it -- this is a Microsoft ad campaign that says absolutely nothing about any Microsoft product whatsoever. It seems like they are running from their own brand rather than executing a strategy to improve it.
Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
I am not a Mac person... at all. I used a friends once, and I just do not like it. They don't make sense to me. I understand they make perfect sense to a lot of people... just not me.
But where that "hidden" tax is going is hardware support, or call it lock-in if you will. It's a different approach, where they make sure that your SYSTEM works, as opposed to MS where they don't directly control the hardware. While you're locked into more expensive hardware with Mac, it works and works well. People are obviously willing to pay for that. And support, which I understand is pretty good with Mac.
I'd love to hear Microsoft's view on what their tax offers the consumer.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
No, the price you're going to have to pay later on for their next-gen system in order to recoup from the major losses this system has caused.
That's no price I've paid or will pay. You're just inventing stuff out of thin air now.
I can go pick up a part needed to fix my system in ten minutes or less and have it installed and running. Have fun waiting weeks for your replacement 360!
So in the meantime I'd just play on my PC and it won't really matter much.
The only incompatible games are the new ones being released on the PS2 (Persona 4, for instance) and usually the only reason for that incompatibility is the BIOS revision one uses.
No, there are plenty of old games with poor support if any. Check out the list at PCSX2 and you will see that they don't support even remotely close to all PS2 games and it's one of the better emulators.
See above.
It's a bullshit claim. Just going to the supported games list on an emulator site shows this.
By the time it works, the hardware required to run it will be cheaper than the system at initial launch. You don't think about time, do ya?
Or instead of having to wait years to get partial support, one can just buy a PS3 now and have been playing the games while you wait 5 years to get support for 1/4 of all PS3 games. Still a brilliant plan!
BZZT. Both use IBM's Cell-based hardware. Better go re-check who has investments in which console.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA. No they don't. The 360 uses a 3 core Xenon PowerPC processor. The Cell processor is different architecture. Way to make yourself look stupid.
Gamers care about entertainment value per dollar. I'm getting FAR more out of my second-hand or first-sourced stuff than you are with a next-gen console.
So in your opinion it's better. Yet millions of console players (or like me who play both PC and consoles) thoroughly enjoy having their console and it's games. You keep acting as if your own preferences are the preferences of every gamer.
You're just NOW getting stuff like Netflix and whatnot for your 360 - we've had it since it was out.
Huh? I don't get why you act like I have no PC. Just because I own a console doesn't mean I've never had a computer. I've been streaming movies from Netflix on my PC since it first started.
The PC gets all the fun stuff, consoles just try to play catch-up and lock you into their stuff.
That's great, but I also have 5 PCs so this claim that somehow I can never do anything that involves a PC is quite bizarre.
Your main argument, way up there, was pretty much hinting at entertainment value. Try beating a PC in the hands of someone that knows how to use it.
I have and do all the time. I've been doing PC gaming for 20+ years now. Just because I play console games doesn't exclude me from being able to play PC games. Again this makes for bizarre claims on your part.
You won't. Consoles are copying computers, nowdays. Might as well buy a computer!
I already own computers, multiples in fact, and have since some of the earliest PCs came out.
how many people by a mac as their first computer? how many a windows based pc? how many buy a mac after having owned a windows pc? and vice-versa? never yet seen that analysis. could tell you a lot. you'd expect people to pick one and stick with it, to avoid replacing software, if theres a significant number of people for whom thats not enough of an issue to stay the same. thats a problem for one side or the other. speaking as a mac owner, and former windows pc owner. I was *happy* to spend about £500 over the odds to get a MPB compaired to what I could hve spent on a windows pc laptop, the lack of time spent keeping it running *to me* was worth it over so far two years.
LOL, I love these shifting goalposts every time your claim gets knocked down. BTW this still doesn't help your claim and actually only further confirms what I said. The cheapest cpu/mobo/memory combo for what you stated added on to the price of all the other components still has the total price of 440 dollars. Keep flopping around though, it's hilarious to watch. So what next? I need to price them at some super secret discount club that only you have access to?
Private servers.
Oh yes, what great fun to play on servers where there is rampant cheating and the runners of the server give away all sorts of powerful stuff to themselves and friends.
I don't pay for WoW (not that I'd even play it,)
Good for you. The whole point of bringing it up was to dispel the notion that you can play all PC games allow you to play online for free which is just false.
and there are tons of free MMOs out there that do not suck.
Doubtful. There may be 1 or 2 but I've played plenty most of the free MMOs you will see listed on a site like MMORPG.com and they are overwhelmingly shit.
And Graphics do not make the game.
Never made the claim so I have no clue what this is a response to.
And Maietz: Gunz is not a Korean POS.
Did I ever say it was?
Do you even bother looking that deep into the gaming community or are you just a surface corporate player?
Do you think I care that you pretend to be some sort of badass because you try to act nonconformist?
This would imply that the Mac has some kind of superiority over Windows (since the Porsche has some unique features over other less expensive cars), but I don't see anything OS X can do that Windows can't.
Even in Apple's own territory, like graphics, Windows out-does OS X since applications like Photoshop are only available in 32bit on OS X while on Windows, there is the possibility to use a 64bit version, making work really well with very large images (due to being able to address more than 3.8GB of RAM). I simply cannot think of any applications where there is no equivalent or better. Sure, there are UI differences, but I don't see it being a significant difference where it's a comparison between, lower range car that has a cooling fan system verses the air conditioning systems in a Porsche.
Hardware wise, there is no significant difference from what I've seen in life span, durability between the brands, all the brands have made crappy hardware and good hardware and Apple is no exception.
In summary, I don't agree with your statement that a Mac is a equivalent to a Porsche in the car industry.
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
I'm tired of people saying their apple runs just as good four years later. Its almost technically impossible. ...
If any Apple cultist says their machine runs just as well as it did four years after purchase OR touts how much they can resell it for, they're just as disillusioned as a MS apologist.
On a fairly regular basis, we get people in here with 5, 6, 8, even 10 year old macs, to have them repaired or upgraded. Compare that with how often we even see a windows box 6 or more years old that is still usable.
"You can't install the latest os. There's not enough HD space, you don't have enough memory, can't add any more memory, and it's dirt slow compared to today's machine. Time to buy a new one." "But why? This machine still works fine? It's not even seven years old yet!"
Yes we really do have to have that conversation with mac owners from time to time. We like to recommend they get a new machine very 5 years or so, just so upgrading their software isn't too difficult. This is a totally different mindset from windows users that have to get a new machine every 4 years to even have it still be functional.
As for resale value, we just got in a rush of used macs and sold them. They were anywhere from 2.5-4.5 yrs old, and sold from $800-$1450. I want to see you TRY to get $1400 for a 3 year old windows machine. I was surprised the powermac g5 went for under a grand. Macs certainly do retain their resale value. I upgrade much more frequently because my work requires a high end laptop. I have yet to sell one used for under $1300. We've had to stop accepting G4's (2001'ish) as they are starting to get difficult to sell.
Curious where you're getting your numbers from?
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
The DIY $200 PC notion always makes me apprehensive. Although you can indeed get good deals by using high-end components from last year, inexpensive power supplies tend to be complete rubbish (talking from experience)
Spending $50 for a decent PSU, in addition to a bit more for a nice case (if you value aesthetics) puts you well above the $200 cost.
If you value reliability, and want a few modern features (eg. a hard drive that holds more than 80gb), you'll probably end up spending closer to $400 or $500. Still not a bad deal, but considerably less of a bargain.
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
In short plan around what a user might do, and not what they should do.
Excellent advice!
The sad thing though, is after a stint at tech support, you realize that your imagination cannot grasp the reality of what your users may try! GHAHHH!
"Now, could you explain again how you got that LS-120 disc in your floppy drive...without a frickken' HAMMER?" [yes, I did get one of these calls!]
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
"That's no price I've paid or will pay. You're just inventing stuff out of thin air now."
No, I speak from actual business experience. Go run one for yourself sometime and you'll understand.
"BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA. No they don't. The 360 uses a 3 core Xenon PowerPC processor. The Cell processor is different architecture. Way to make yourself look stupid."
From the PS3 site:
"PowerPC-base Core @3.2GHz "
From the 360 site:
"IBM PowerPC-based CPU"
It's the Cell Architecture - go look at the damned SDKs.
"Huh? I don't get why you act like I have no PC. Just because I own a console doesn't mean I've never had a computer. I've been streaming movies from Netflix on my PC since it first started."
You're arguing 360 vs PC - you stick with your 360 and quit diverting by mentioning other hardware you own - it's YOUR 360 vs MY PC.
"That's great, but I also have 5 PCs so this claim that somehow I can never do anything that involves a PC is quite bizarre.
Your main argument, way up there, was pretty much hinting at entertainment value. Try beating a PC in the hands of someone that knows how to use it.
I have and do all the time. I've been doing PC gaming for 20+ years now. Just because I play console games doesn't exclude me from being able to play PC games. Again this makes for bizarre claims on your part.
You won't. Consoles are copying computers, nowdays. Might as well buy a computer!
I already own computers, multiples in fact, and have since some of the earliest PCs came out."
See above. Stick with your argument and quit detracting by mentioning other things.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
"Oh yes, what great fun to play on servers where there is rampant cheating and the runners of the server give away all sorts of powerful stuff to themselves and friends."
Get honest people and start your own server. It's not that hard.
"Good for you. The whole point of bringing it up was to dispel the notion that you can play all PC games allow you to play online for free which is just false."
See above.
"Doubtful. There may be 1 or 2 but I've played plenty most of the free MMOs you will see listed on a site like MMORPG.com and they are overwhelmingly shit."
Note how you first say MMO then say MMORPG - I just talking the whole MMO genre, which is NOT limited to RPG games.
"Never made the claim so I have no clue what this is a response to."
It's not a response to anything - you're just looking for things to nitpick at. Were it a response to anything, it would have had it's own little quote before being mentioned.
"Did I ever say it was?"
You mention Korean gaming as a whole as a POS since you do not list specific games. You made a blanket statement that is grossly untrue. I just pointed out one example.
"Do you think I care that you pretend to be some sort of badass because you try to act nonconformist?"
No, I know you don't care, you're too busy being an elitist. I don't act like a noncomformist, either, quit assuming.
Let's break this own to the ORIGINAL QUOTE that started this mess:
"If you want to play any games from the last couple of years you would have spent at least 670 if not more on your PC."
In your own post here you use my site and find out you can build my system for about $440. And that's mid-range. A low-range system to play any games made within the past couple of years would cost LESS! 8800 graphics cards are still good! That old x2 4400 will do the trick! that 2GB of PC-4200 Works!
YOUR ORIGINAL CLAIM, THE ONE I QUOTED, IS BLATANTLY FALSE. You can BUY A CURRENT DELL FOR LESS THAN $670 and run Crysis.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
No, I speak from actual business experience. Go run one for yourself sometime and you'll understand.
So you're telling me that PC hardware manufacturers don't pass on the cost of returns and things in the pricing of their items? The fact of the matter is the cost I paid for any other person returning their Xbox is negligble at best and in fact I paid less than the early adopters.
It's the Cell Architecture - go look at the damned SDKs.
No, the Xenon is a modified version of the SPEs that the Cell processor also happens to use because they are both PPC processors, but the Xenon is not a Cell processor as they have a different architecture. If the 360 had a Cell processor, than why was Sony touting that the PS3 was better because of it's use of the Cell? That makes absolutely no sense.
You're arguing 360 vs PC - you stick with your 360 and quit diverting by mentioning other hardware you own - it's YOUR 360 vs MY PC.
No, that's not what I've been arguing at all. I was arguing against the claim that console gaming was more expensive than PC gaming which is what the person I first responded to was trying to claim. I on the other hand was showing that this wasn't the case. It had nothing to do with whether PCs or consoles was superior to one another. That was some bizarre nonsense you interjected.
Your main argument, way up there, was pretty much hinting at entertainment value.
No, it wasn't. You bringing in Netflix or something else had nothing at all to do with any of my claims which were strictly on the price of console gaming (in this case the price of buying a 360) to the price of PC gaming (the price of buying a PC to run modern games).
Try beating a PC in the hands of someone that knows how to use it.
I do. All the time on my PC.
See above. Stick with your argument and quit detracting by mentioning other things.
Stick with what argument? That consoles are not more expensive than buying a PC to game? I've been sticking with that the whole time and have shown that they aren't more expensive.
$25 2.3 GHz AMD X2 dual core - Newegg w/ coupon /w coupon
$15, AR - 4GB Corsair DDR2 memory - frys.com
$15 rifle CPU cooler, fry's
$58, EVGA SLI MB, from EVGA B-stock
$35 and $34, ARs - 2 9600 GSO's in SLI (both from Newegg)
$38, AR 650 Watt OCZ StealthXStream PS (Newegg)
$40, 500GB hard drive - Ebay
$8 SLI bridge - ebay
$15 - old case
$15 - old DVD drive
$60 - Windows vista home retail, ebay after MS CB
$30 - razer mouse
$free - old keyboard
All of these prices include shipping (AR = After Rebate)
Total: $388
most of the above found on slickdeals.net
The key here is wait for a deal, don't just go out and buy.
Also, average retail for XBox 360 games is always more than for the average PC game (compare call of duty, left 4 dead, etc).
"There can be little doubt that union activities lead to continuous and progressive inflation." F. A. Hayek
I like your point but this one is wrong:
least 670 if not more on your PC.
My Gaming PC, recently retired to running media center...athlon2800 overclocked, NVIDIA6800, NF7-Sv2 MOBO, 80GB hard drive, 2GB ram....have had it for well more than two years and would play any game on the market. You can put that system together for under $200 now adays easy.
Dammit, Moore and his law! All of our thousand-dollar gaming rigs are crap in a year and a half!!!
> Since all you have to do is drag it into iTunes, I disagree. If there's a codec issue you may have to transcode, but again that's one more click... ...which leads to the inevitable question: "What the f*ck do you want iTunes? Why don't you tell me?"
It's "information hiding at it's finest".
"use some 3rd party app foo" is NOT acceptable.
It's a major FAIL that iTunes doesn't handle this on it's own.
This is perhaps GEEK friendly (perhaps) but it is hardly n00b friendly.
Other devices (esp Archos) are much more accomodating.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Could you give more details of your configuration?
No sig for the moment.
The point in digital equipment is that the end result is either wrong or right. And computers run at a fixed clock speed.
So the transistors in RAM and CPU will slowly degrade until they cannot do their task within the time frame dictated by the clock speed. Up to that point you will notice nothing, afterwards you get bit errors. Note that this can take decades, and the idea that cheap RAM always fails within 2-3 years is wrong.
In short, computers don't get slower. They will fail at some point but that may take much longer than a few years.
C - the footgun of programming languages
I am waiting for Toyota to talk about the "BMW Tax".
Oh, wait, they are not going to because it is SILLY to name your competitor because then they will think of the competitor. Toyota ads and campaigns therefore talk about Toyota brands and products.
So, hey, Microsoft, keep mentioning Apple and Macs. Put those names into people's minds. Heck, you hardly have any brands left yourself...
Antivirus
Antispyware
Defragmentation utility
Remote Access (Windows Pro upgrade at a minimum)
Not so odd, when you realise people just want that Mac if it's been used a bit and just a tad cheaper. It's like a car; get something with some miles on it, bit it'd be out of your price range otherwise.
Dell? Go grab a new one. Not all that more expensive, and probably on sale. Again.
It's already installed, you insufferable clod!
Um... you realize that you have stories from both because they both get their hardware from the same place, right?
What I mean is, Dell sells me a Seagate hard drive in my laptop, and Apple sells me a Seagate hard drive in my laptop. It's not quite fair to say "Apple's hard drive" or "Dell's hard drive" because neither hard drive was made by either company.
By the way, I'm writing this on a two-year-old Dell, and it works just as well as it did when I bought it. Before you say "I said my Macbook is four years old!", I used an IBM Thinkpad (pre-Lenovo) for eight years without issues.
IMHO, laptop longevity is much more a function of how the user treats the laptop than of how the manufacturer made it. In other words, if you treat your laptop like a textbook, it's (generally) not going to last very long, no matter who you bought it from.
Please back up your claim, thanks.
Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
And the tops of the keyboard keys would erode over time from my fingernails with normal typing.
You're supposed to cut those every few weeks, you know ;)
I'm pretty sure OpenOffice comes preinstalled on Ubuntu... so there's nothing to figure out.
Several of Apple's "Mac vs PC" ads have quite clearly claimed that Apples are fun but [Windows] PCs only know how to do boring things like make spreadsheets.
They conveniently neglected to mention that the gaming market for Windows is much, much, much bigger than it is for OSX.
I know they're not targeting gamers; that doesn't change the fact that they're being deliberately misleading.
I wrote a forum post here about some of the misleading or outright false things in Apple's ads. It was written in August of 2007, so it obviously doesn't deal with any ads newer than that. Perhaps it's time to revisit the subject...
Just believe what you like, this is easier for both of us.
What about the role of software in all this? When did you last buy a PC (I mean a computer running Windows) and get any useful software with it? You get a whole lot of useless trialware, that will reappear when you reinstall Windows from the image they put on the system.
Macs come with (I'm not joking with this stuff) X11, a diskcopier (It's called Disk Utility), professional developer tools (the exact same tool chain used by Apple and professional developers, not some half-baked "lite" version), as well as all the more well known stuff like iPhoto, iMovie et al. Macs also come with PIM software, a "couch" interface (Front Row), backup software, PDF writer ...
I guess none of this is worth anything? You just want Notepad and Solitaire.
What's the fixation with the tower again? What exactly are you putting in there? (Don't say RAM, please don't say RAM - you can add RAM to iMacs 8Gb of it)
Now who makes these wonderful PCs you guys keep banging on about? (The cheap ones, that are brilliantly put together and not built down to a price in a way only an accountant could possibly love.) 'Cos I don't know these machines, I really don't. When I wanted a system like that, I ended up building the thing - not because I wanted to (heaven knows I didn't WANT TO) but because the "big brands" either make systems that cost a fortune or the same people make something so dreadfully nasty I didn't want it at any price (and I'll admit they were cheap. Now honestly, that's not a great use of my time - but I at least have a system that didn't cost a fortune and it isn't totally horrible. Clearly I've not ruined it with Windows.
So yes, I have a Mac - and my "other computer" is a self build. Do I think the Mac is "overpriced"? No, clearly Apple have made a more solid system than many of the OEMs do, and that's reflected in the cost. But the point is, it IS reflected: Macs are wonderfully put together. At work we have a Mac Pro, that thing is fantastically well put together - no PC OEM makes a system this well at ANY price. If a Mac Pro more expensive than a Dell Inspiron? Yeah, a heck of a lot. But these things are as different as they can be. Compare it to a Dell Precision, with similar specs, the Dell is at least as much, usually quite a bit more.
We end up at the point where Apple don't make a system at every price point - but we knew that. We don't end up at: Apple Macs cost more than PCs. Sure, there are a few gaps, where you can't get a Mac EXACTLY to the spec we might want, so if we want a Mac we have to compromise. Either live without something we wanted - say a separate tower (that we wanted for some inexplicable reason) or spend more to get a system that exceeds your minimum requirements. What I think really galls Windows buyers is people DO. People actually care about build of the system and/or the OS (and hence applications) enough to not plonk down on some Dell or HP.
If for you a "cheap" PC with Vista (or XP if you can still get that on the PC you've selected) is what you want - great, I'm happy for you.
But pardon me for giving a damn about the computer I use and the OS I run.
Just as I doubt the Microsoft Police will come after someone because they're using an OEM license in place of a retail one, or because the university-going child lets his parents use their computer with the free Windows license he got from his university.
Still, legality is legality and if we're gonna ignore that, we may as well go to ThePirateBay and be done with it.
No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
Holy crap man, scrap all of that and upgrade already! Fedora 10 has been out for months and Fedora 11 is coming out in about a month. You really really really should no longer be using Fedora Core 5, nobody is going to be able to help you with it anymore and I don't even think the repositories for it are still up!
Just install Fedora 10 clean and let yum (the package manager used by Fedora) handle all the hard work with installing things. `yum install gimp` will install gimp for you and all of it's dependancies, it really couldn't be simplier.
"linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
So the misleading ads from Apple were okay, but the Microsoft ads that point to the higher average price of Macs isn't?
The .so name of a shared library under Linux encodes not only whether the library has been revised, but also indicates ABI compatibility.
If the library authors know what they are doing, when they release a new version of a library they will set the .so version number (different from the human-targeted source-code version number) to reflect which previous versions of the library the new release is compatible with. As a result, ABI-compatible software does not need to be recompiled.
See, for example, the shared-lib versioning documentation for GNU libtool.
If a thing is not diminished by being shared, it is not rightly owned if it is only owned & not shared. S. Augustine
I give approximately 2 sh*ts about this.
How do you come up with that price? You can get a decent motherboard for $75. 2-4GB of name brand DDR2 ram will run you $50. A dual core CPU will run you $50. Now that stuff won't be cutting edge or anything like that, but it'll all be name brand, reliable parts that will give you years of service - no junk like PCChips, VIA, or no-name ram. That's less than $200. Spend a bit more on the CPU ($75-$100 more), and you're already in iMac territory in terms of CPU and ram.
People who complain about the "Apple Tax" shouldn't wear Levi jeans, Nike shoes or drink Coca Cola either.
www.ebay.com
(Sorry for the brevity, but every time I've looked at both on eBay, the Mac stuff commands high prices years after release while the PC stuff is virtually given away. Personal experience, your milage may vary, contents may have settled in transit.)
I'm a New Zealander who had a 3rd Generation 15GB iPod. I bought the remote at a later date, and loved it fine. I dont see why having the hold button at the top (or bottom) is right/wrong. I'm sorry it was opposite to how you wanted it ok? But really, thats like complaining to Toyota when you wanted the gauges in a different order than what they went with. (sorry to use a car analogy)
I need a new iPod, and basically the new iPod Classic is my only choice. I'm waiting until the big 3.0 iPhone OS release, hoping a newer model will come out with new features.
I dont like the new iPod classic OS, the way it does half a menu on the left, and then on the right random album art? Is that right? I dont like the idea of it anyway.
Anyway, you really cant complain about everything Apple does if you only had one of their products like 5 years ago. They're had a whole 3 newer models since then, we are up to Gen 6 with the Classic, and Apple is slow to make whole new generations, they are not like Dell.
I hope you use an iPod someday soon! Your problems you mentioned with your 3rd Generation, I had NONE of those and still love my 3rd Gen, I'll be buried with it :P
---
Xbox Live Gold is $30 a month if you buy it in January. So 5 years = $150
30 * 12 * 5 != 150
30 * 12 * 5 = 1800
I was playing plenty of modern games, given I couldnt do Crysis at any real entertaining level, but I could play most of the games on the shelves easily with my 6800, I guess I should have mentioned the 6800 was modded a bit. But if I am not looking for 100+fps I could easily have upgraded my PC for sub $200 and I would still be under the $650 mark. In fact I did when my mobo fried just the other day, bought an X2 with 2GB Ram and an 8800. That lets me fly just fine.
CS: It is all sink or swim...oh and did I mention there are sharks in that water?
Dont get me wrong, I build for speed, and I am 100% with you on the whitebox vs brand pricing. But unless you need cutting edge, $200 will get you a gaming pc and $500 will get you a damn good one.
CS: It is all sink or swim...oh and did I mention there are sharks in that water?
Holy hell, where do you shop? Best Buy? Vid Card: Nvidia 9500 $50 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130378 550W power supply $23 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817170010 And these are brand new parts, lucky for us we can hit e-bay or craigslist and get em used if necessary...The only real thing you have to worry about in a system is the graphics card. I dont think even crysis cares all that much about your mobo, psu, processor (within reason), and hard drive.
CS: It is all sink or swim...oh and did I mention there are sharks in that water?
Finally, a post I can get on board with! Yes you are correct, the $200 PC is going to have 2 gen old parts, but if you know what you are looking for in PSUs and Vid Cards you can slash prices easily. Problem is, people like to brag about their systems, and if you are going to get into that game you need to spend $500+
CS: It is all sink or swim...oh and did I mention there are sharks in that water?
I have seen the new "comparison" commercials with people running back and forth between Mac and "PC" systems and finally walking out of the door with a PC and then they get a bunch of money or something stupid like that and this report, DUMB ALL DUMB. I am an avid user of both Windows installed machines as well as Macs and I can say honestly, and anyone that has ever used both on a regular basis should agree, that they both suck as much as the other. I dare not throw Linux into the mix because of the dozens of flavors of Linux and BSD that I have used over almost the entire decade, the only useful ones have been dedicated firewalls, web servers, and FTP servers. You want stability and efficiency. Build me a bad ass windows shell like GNOME or KDE or even Windows 3.x that runs everything we need today and but runs off of DOS. Ok, that is crazy, but it is wishful thinking and me living a little in the past.
What the FUCK.
$200 will not get you a gaming PC.
The chip won't slow down, it'll simply fail.
Individual components can degrade in terms of becoming slower to change state, less able to hold a charge, increasing in resistance, decreasing in voltage tolerance, and so on. But those are individual component characteristics.
The things made from those, like CPUs and motherboards work on the assumption of that its component parts have characteristics within some tolerance value. When some component goes out of the acceptable range, all sorts of things can happen. Critical components failing can result in the CPU getting fried, getting constant crashes or the computer not turning on. You might also get lucky and had some unused part fail to no ill effect.
So no, you won't find evidence that the computer will become 25% slower. What possibly gets slower is something deep inside the CPU. Eventually it doesn't change state fast enough, and the CPU starts working incorrectly.
Well, that's pretty much what I thought. It simply breaks. That's fine with me, but the person actually asserted that the hardware became slower and that was highly suspicious to me.
What are the timeframes of this happening? Within the lifespan of a typical computer? That a 10 year old computer eventually fails is to be expected. Now, a 1 year old failing due to degradation would be a outrage.
Yes it will, you just wont brag about it to your friends. $30-HD $20 Power Supply $15 case $40CPU/Mobo Combo $20 2GB RAM $50 Vid Card $15 CD ROM. Viola, sub $200 PC. Sure you wont get the bragging right's of a cutting edge Video card or the overkill of a quad core CPU. But you will play any game on the market today.
CS: It is all sink or swim...oh and did I mention there are sharks in that water?
No, he spoke about transistors. Transistors is what a CPU is made of.
You can think of it as a huge rail network. The system relies on the timing to be right. If the rails break down, or a train slows down too much, you can end up with a huge crash.
Now what he also said is that failures aren't necessarily huge and dramatic. You may have an absolutely vital part break, then the computer one day stops working. But there exist subtle failure modes. For instance bad capacitors can cause random crashes with no easily determinable origin. Bad RAM may cause all sorts of issues, like none at all (if you're very lucky), a bad pixel on the screen, or disk corruption.
I've had hardware die in different ways, and it usually doesn't suddenly die one day. I've had a laptop screen fail over a period of weeks, getting worse and worse over time. Hard disks may keep working with some bad sectors. Components with overheating or soldering problems often display intermittent problems before really dying. Worn out fans keep on spinning for some time before failing. LCD backlights and OLEDs gradually decrease in brightness, and so on.
How long it takes for something to break in this manner depends on the component, usage and environment. But no hardware lasts forever, and doesn't necessarily just die one day, having worked perfectly the day before.
Okay, I'll bite.
Release dates:
2001: OSX 10.0/.1, Windows XP
(four OS X versions later)
2007: OSX 10.5, Vista (retail)
5 user upgrades from XP to Vista Home Premium at $129 ea = $645
4 OS upgrades for OSX (5 pack, since you'd upgrade all 5 people) @ $200/5pk = $800
Then again, our two Macs are happily running Panther (10.3) and Tiger (10.4), respectively. The idea of upgrading has crossed my mind, but not very seriously, because they both work fine. Only the older one might benefit from a newer version of iLife - newer, not the newest.
Usage: km/h for speed (kilometers per hour); kph for very slow impulses (kilopond hours).
"under-clocked-as-standard graphics card" oh really? First clue you didn't rally buy a MBP. "over a thousand pounds" for a MBP? And there's the second: MBPs cost closer to two thousand.
Perhaps you bought a Dell without realising because you strike me as being stupid enough.
Bad analogies are like waxing a monkey with a rainbow.
SO MUCH FAIL
Let's grab the cheapest shit on Newegg.
$34 gets an 80 GB HDD
$50 gets an ATi 4650 with 512 MB of slow ass RAM
$16 for a DVD drive (let's face it - games come on DVDs now, and the only thing cheaper was a PATA CD ROM)
We're at $100!
$35 for the cheapest motherboard
$40 for a 1.8 GHz single-core Conroe
(The cheapest mobo/cpu combo was over $80)
$18 for the cheapest 2 GB ram kit
$24 for the cheapest case
$16 for the cheapest PSU with 2 SATA connectors
That's $233. No free shipping on anything, either, like you get with Dell.
You won't be playing any modern games on this turd.
Oh, and you need a mouse, keyboard, OS license, and monitor. You get all this included with the $500 Dell (as well as a second OS license, LOL). Oh, and the Dell blows this piece of shit out of the water performance-wise.
No.... He said said that computers deteriorate.. The original post din't even mention transistors:
So if you state such a thing it must deteriorate in a measurable way for the end-user. That isn't exactly true. A component that starts to get flaky is by definition already defective. You get random crashes? You investigate. A computer component no working within specs is broken.
I'm not contesting transistors deteriorate, but I am contesting that this has a real effect on the end-user experience. I have several consumer-end computer over 7 years old that work perfectly fine. That 24/7.... 7 years is pretty much "old" for a computer, even for Macs (from which this discussion originated) Sure, if the transistor decay makes my hardware unusable in 45 years... does it really matter?
It simply is not the same as saying "computers deteriorate". If this had any real effect at all (except for dying components) this stuff would be published all over the place. It simply is not relevant for the end-user.
Have you checked prices for PC parts lately? I would not say it's cheaper to PC game than XBox but you can build a powerful enough PC to play all modern games for about $700 if you are getting the right parts and keep your system clean. Keep in mind you also probably need a computer for other things so spending an extra $200 can make that shitty workstation you were going to buy into a gaming PC.
If you want to achieve the mythical Sub $200 PC you have to cut corners, used parts and whatnot. There are P4 CPUs and ASUS mobos to be had for pennies. You wont get 3 year old P4s at newegg (Which are overkill for any game I have ever heard of. Check Craigslist and Ebay. We arent going for quality here. Local auctions and garage sales often have PCs for $4-$50 that have a dead hard drive and are only a couple years old. Not to mention an easy $15 at your local university for an OS or free if you are a wine geek but not very many gamers are that OS proficient.
But even with that as you said, you can get a much better OEM PC from HP or dell for a little more. Personally I look at the sub $200 PC as a good challenge, not everyone is up for it but it can be done, you just have to shop carefully, hit up deals and rebates, and not be afraid to get your hands dirty.
I usually tell people $500 for a damn good rig without monitor. You shouldn't have to spend more than $1000 on a full out bragging rights gaming machine. Completely tricked out.
CS: It is all sink or swim...oh and did I mention there are sharks in that water?