Alienware Refusing Customers As Thieves

ChrisPaget writes "Thinking about buying Alienware (now owned by Dell)? Think again. After buying an almost-new Alienware laptop on eBay, I've spent the last week trying to get hold of a Smart Bay caddy to connect a second hard drive (about $150 for $5 of bent metal). Four different Alienware teams have refused to even give me a price on this accessory, instead accusing me of stealing the machine since I didn't buy it directly from their eBay store. They want me to persuade the eBay seller I did buy it from to add me as an authorized user of his Alienware account — they have no concept of 'ownership transfer' and instead assume that if you're not in their system, you must be a thief."

Comments

Cars

[googlesmith123]

Imagine if the same was true for cars: Guy fixing your car: "Sorry mate...can't fix this....seems like you bought it from another human and not from a huge company".

Re:Cars

[Stumbles]

Ummm, fixing a car does not equate to purchasing a bob for a computer case. With your logic, Ford as an example would refuse to sell you some gizmo adapter because you didn't buy the car through their "authorized channel". Pfft. No, I think this is just a case of Alienware being dumb asses.

Re:Cars

[plover]

Imagine if you paid cash for a car from a guy selling one in his driveway. A few months later, maybe you need a brake job, so you head to the dealer to have them do the work.

Do you expect anything except the dealer to do the brake job? Of course not. It's your car, you need brakes, so put brakes in it. But when the dealer types the VIN into his computer and it comes up "stolen", and says to you "sorry, there's going to be a delay," you might assume that he's just running a bad dealership. But that's not how the law works. If they discover you're in possession of a stolen car, they MUST notify the police, and it WILL get impounded and returned to the rightful owner. That's pretty easy to do when it's still in the dealer's garage, but not so easy if he lets the customer leave with it.

In the case of Alienware, if they sent a random customer who asked for a part a note saying "Sorry, but your PC is reported stolen, please bring it to the cops," the chances are good the customer will simply disappear, keeping the stolen goods. What are the chances he is going to voluntarily bring it to the police and say "here, have this laptop, I bought it from eBay and it turns out it was stolen. So you can just keep it, and I'll be out the thousand dollars then. Sure, I'll have a nice day."

Bottom line: how does Mr. Paget know that his laptop isn't stolen merchandise? He says got "a good deal" on it from a "hassle free seller" who shipped it promptly. If I was fencing hot PCs on eBay, you bet I'd be a hassle free, fast shipper. I'd also be gone in about a week. I'd say there's a damn good chance it IS stolen merchandise, and he's about to lose his money.

Re:Cars

[amiga3D]

You could be right. Still...I bet I never buy a used alienware computer.

Re:Cars

[googlesmith123]

alas...my point was that the big companies don't make any profit of a second hand laptop, so they make life difficult for end user. Whether it was stolen or not it beside the point. You can't assume something was stolen just because it was bought second hand.

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

Guilty until proven innocent. What a crock.

Re:Cars

[richdun]

I like the analogy in principle, but there's one problem with it - if I bought a car from a random guy (for cash or otherwise), and didn't get the title transferred into my name at whatever government office is responsible for such things in my neck of the woods, I'm an idiot. While there's currently no government agency policing computer ownership (pause for applause / tin foil hat brigade reaction), this highlights the importance of shopping at a reputable dealer when purchasing goods for which there is no clear transference of ownership. That, most likely, is the point you were trying to make in that analogy.

Re:Cars

[GigsVT]

In the case of Alienware, if they sent a random customer who asked for a part a note saying "Sorry, but your PC is reported stolen, please bring it to the cops,"

That's not what happened. They said to send a warranty number that would prove he bought it from them. Alienware hasn't said that the laptop was reported stolen.

Re:Cars

[mpoulton]

If they discover you're in possession of a stolen car, they MUST notify the police...

I call BS. There is absolutely no legal duty to report someone else's possession of stolen property to the police. A dealership might choose to make it a policy, but that's the dealership's own choice and not mandated by law. If there is a law in your jurisdiction that requires dealerships to do this, then it is specific to your jurisdiction only - and would be highly unusual, since such "duty to report" statutes tend to be very controversial and are usually limited to "think of the children" scenarios. And yes, IAALawStudent.

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

Used computers are never good value for money. They depreciate in value so fast, that you can almost always get a better one new for the price of the used one.

Re:Cars

[mdwh2]

Bottom line: how does Mr. Paget know that his laptop isn't stolen merchandise?

What has this speculation got to do with anything?

Whether or not it is really stolen, I fail to see how Alienware can know this - computers don't have an identification number (he even later states in his blog that he was unable to send them the warranty number). So this looks to be a blanket response. It's unclear why they would care - yes, car manufacturers may have a legal obligation to report theft, but neither they nor Alienware have any legal obligation to not deal with any customer who may conceivably have stolen the product.

Re:Cars

[Non-CleverNickName]

Well no, he's not asking Alienware to fix anything for him (under warranty or paying directly), he's just simply asking to buy a spare part from them so he can fix it himself.

It's more like buying a used car from someone, trying to buy an oil filter directly from the dealership, and being refused because you're not the original (authorized) owner of the car. You're not asking them to change your oil, which would give them a reason to check your warranty information to make sure everything's in line, or recording your VIN number in their system so they can keep track of what car's they've worked on for the day, he's just someone who wants to buy a part from them. They're just telling you they can't sell you an oil filter because they don't have a record of you buying the car from them.

Really, why should he even be required to be the owner of any Alienware merchandise to buy a replacement part for the laptop? I'm not entirely sure of what he told the CSR's on the phone, but I wonder what they'd say if I called up and wanted to buy a replacement glowing alien head (from their laptops) to decorate something in my house with. Will they deny me because I'm not an authorized owner of the laptop that the glowing alien head fits on, or will they gladly sell me the part regardless of whether I own one of their laptops or not?

If they're denying him the part because he wants it replaced free under the original owner's warranty, that's one thing. Refusing to sell him the part because they have no record of him buying anything directly from them is different.

Re:Cars

[EvanED]

You just have to find a seller who knows that the computer's value is crap.

I bought a (yes, used) 2000-era laptop a year or two ago for $20. Where am I to get a new laptop for that price?

Re:Cars

[sjames]

Better analogy. Go to an auto parts store and ask for brake pads for a 2005 Taurus. I assure you they will not even ask for a vin number. They sell parts, you want to buy parts, end of discussion.

Apparently, Alienware has no actual reason to believe the laptop is stolen but chooses to ASSUME that it is because they didn't directly sell it to him.

Re:Cars

[KDR_11k]

But when the dealer types the VIN into his computer and it comes up "stolen"[..]

They aren't checking the computer, they're checking the owner. If the dealer took your name instead of the VIN and checked if he had records of a car being sold to you, then calling you a thief because he does not that IS wrong.

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

Whether or not it is really stolen, I fail to see how Alienware can know this - computers don't have an identification number

Are you retarded? I have the serial numbers of all my reasonably expensive electronics recorded in case of theft or damage. The insurance company requires it, and if it's stolen you'd be an idiot not to report that to the police and company. Many a system has been recovered when someone brought a stolen laptop in for repair.

Re:Cars

[jowilkin]

Used computers are never good value for money. They depreciate in value so fast, that you can almost always get a better one new for the price of the used one.

Your comment is so clearly contradictory it's funny. If computers depreciate in value incredibly fast then used ones would be a much better deal than new. If computers did NOT depreciate in value, then new ones would clearly be a better deal...

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

you can call bs all day but the law probably disagrees with you.
"Receipt of stolen property is a type of crime in the legal code of the United States. It is a federal crime under 18 U.S.C. Â 2315 to knowingly receive, conceal, or dispose of stolen property with a value at least $5,000 that is part of interstate commerce (i.e., been transported across state lines)." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Receipt_of_stolen_property

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

Really, why should he even be required to be the owner of any Alienware merchandise to buy a replacement part for the laptop? I'm not entirely sure of what he told the CSR's on the phone, but I wonder what they'd say if I called up and wanted to buy a replacement glowing alien head (from their laptops) to decorate something in my house with. Will they deny me because I'm not an authorized owner of the laptop that the glowing alien head fits on, or will they gladly sell me the part regardless of whether I own one of their laptops or not?

I've got Skype, a head set, and an hour to kill. Guess what I'm going to do.

Re:Cars

[stimpleton]

Fear not, I for one automatically saw your point. THere must be a few out there.

Re:Cars

[DarkOx]

Ignoring the fact that cars are registered and titles and things like that so you usually know if you are in possession of a stolen car, there is no reason to think this computer is "hot".

Unless its been reported stolen Alienware should not be hassling this guy. These things are registered with the company when you buy them. So you can probably call in and say my box is missing without needing the serial. When ordering parts its certainly reasonable for Alienware to ask for the serial, which you should be able to provide since you physically have the thing. They should be able to key that in and unless that serial is associated with an existing account that has reported a theft, they should be able to just sell you a part. There is really no good reason this should be hard.

I think this has more to do with them not really wanting to support their hardware in the second hand market. This is a company after all that makes its profit selling really high markup cutting edge (or so they claim) gear. They don't make money stocking and selling replacement parts for last years, hell probably even last months model.

Re:Cars

[erroneus]

Where did the companies of today get the stupid idea that they can do good business by treating customers and potential customers like crap? Perhaps it comes from the customers and potential customers who accept such treatment willingly.

Re:Cars

[Brian Gordon]

I think he's saying that the value of a used computer plummets with respect to its slowly-dropping price, while the value of the new computer skyrockets with respect to its also slowly-dropping price.

Re:Cars

[HeronBlademaster]

All the guy wants is to buy additional hardware for his machine. Why should he need a warranty number for that? Should car part stores ask for your VIN number when you want to buy a new headlight?

Perhaps a better analogy is laptop batteries. Why should Dell care how I got my laptop, if all I want is to spend money buying a new battery? They certainly don't lose anything - on the contrary, refusing service to me is what's losing them money!

Re:Cars

[Threni]

> Where did the companies of today get the stupid idea that they can do good business by treating customers and potential customers like crap?

Perhaps they've been studying software companies.

Re:Cars

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

I think it's a case of Chris being an idiot and Slashdot demonstrating, once again, a complete lack of quality content.

Seconded. Random rants on customer service? Hardly seems the place for it...

Re:Cars

[HeronBlademaster]

I hope you're being serious, and I hope you let us know how it turns out. Perhaps you'll post an mp3 for us to listen to?

Re:Cars

[Bazar]

bad companies don't make any profit of a second hand laptop.

A good company would sell them support and services, and judging from the summery, at $150 for a smart bay, they are close to doing just that.

Lets not forget that all PC's need to be replaced, if new owner is impressed with your service and quality, he may purchase directly from you in future.

There's also the original owner, if he has trouble on-selling his old PC because of you, he's less likely to purchase newer models from you.

1. Treat your Customers well.
2. ...
3. Profit!

Re:Cars

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

Cars: No. A car analogy really doesn't work here. All it ever does is spawn countless arguments about how your analogy was flawed. Not content to leave it at that, people will add more complexity to it, as if that somehow makes it better. And then people will reply to them, making the analogy even MORE outlandish...

So while it's great for amusement value -- after all, who could fail to find amusement in watching nerds try to stick a square peg into a round hole -- it's almost never appropriate for any discussion. Unless, of course, we're talking about cars - but usually, that just means someone will make an analogy to a computer.

In short: just say NO to car analogies.

Re:Cars

[BitZtream]

You sound like a fantasticly shitty lawyer to be then. Laws are different in different parts of the world, and i know for a fact that the act of knowingly accepting or holding on to stolen goods is illegal in at least three different states that I've lived in.

As a law student I would expect you to be aware of something so obvious. You also should consider that when you say you law student people will tend to think you have a clue, so in your case please preface your statements with something like "I'm a know it all student with no real world experience and I'm probably wrong or at least wildly inaccurate."

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

IAALawStudent

Worst. Abbreviation. Ever.

Re:Cars

[kandela]

Yeah but all he wants to do is buy a part not trade-in the laptop. Any mechanic will sell you a brake pad if you want to buy a brake pad. Maybe if you ask them to fit the brake pad they might check some register but otherwise... Why would he even need to own an Alienware laptop to buy the part?

Re:Cars

[NimbleSquirrel]

This has nothing to do with it being a stolen laptop or not (and it most likely is not stolen). He just wants to buy an accessory, so it is not like he is taking it in for warranty repairs.

Alienware are not the Police: it is not their job to decide what is stolen and what isn't. If you read the blog, they haven't directly said that the laptop is stolen. They are, however, treating him like a criminal because he is not the person who brought the laptop from them in the first place.

His point is that he isn't having anything serviced and he is not expecting Alienware to do anything except sell him an accessory. To use your analogy more correctly: it is like taking a second hand car to the dealer to buy a mirror accessory, and then having the dealer look under your bonnet for the VIN and tell you that you can't buy it because you didn't buy the car from them.

Re:Cars

[Nitewing98]

Au contraire mon frere! I just recently bought a 2002 dual processor Powermac G4 for 275 bucks. It runs the latest version of Mac OS X, runs great, and I paid about 10% of its original price.

You should qualify your statement - "Used computers aren't good value for your money UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT TO LOOK FOR."

If you're a saavy bargain-hunter you can find real gems on eBay or in the classifieds.

Re:Cars

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

Damnit. I meant to write that as "Random unsubstantiated rants..."

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

That is hands down the stupidest analogy I've ever read.

Re:Cars

[icebike]

Cars, AND Computers can be recorded as stolen.

How does the OP know it wasn't stolen by the person selling it to them?

Re:Cars

[Decado]

Alienware have no obligation to deal with this guy. They do not sell PC parts individually and they don't have to. If the sale was legitimate then the guy who bought the PC should have absolutely no trouble getting the warrenty number from the seller.

The previous rant about the hassles of DRM just to install a dual boot also suggests that he does not have the CDs to reinstall his operating system etc if needed furthering the idea that the laptop he bought was, in fact, stolen.

Re:Cars

[Decado]

A company refusing to do business with a person who they think stole a product from one of their customers is, in fact, being incredibly loyal to their customer.

The guy they are treating like crap is not a customer because with no receipt and no warrenty he is quite likely a thief. If the sale was legitimate why would he have any trouble getting the warrenty number from the seller?

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

Here in the UK at least, cars have a log book to prove ownership - it will show every owner. If you don't have one, the assumption is that the car is stolen.

Re:Cars

[Lord Byron II]

If Alienware has real reason to think its stolen, then shouldn't they collect all of the information they can about the thief (like the shipping address for the HDD caddy) and then forward everything to the cops?

Re:Cars

[jvd]

It all sounds fine, all except for a subtle detail: you're making up everything you just said. The article didn't mention anything about cops or half the bullshit you just wrote.

Stick to the fucking article, stick to the fucking article!

Re:Cars

[Mr. Freeman]

No, they're not. This isn't some guy walking into a cartoys with a radio minus a faceplate with indications that he's just ripped it out of some car in the parking lot. This is a guy asking to purchase a hard drive adapter thingy for a laptop he purchased off of someone.

There's no indication that he's stolen it, they're assuming he has. This is the problem.

Re:Cars

[erroneus]

You have NEVER bought used gear legitimately before? I seriously doubt this guy is a thief. And making that presumption is incredibly offensive. There could be any number of reasons why documentation didn't move with the machine.

But as many others have pointed out, it is clearly their intent to discourage second-hand sales. There are lots of companies and industries that operate this way. To me, the "value" or the measure of what something is "worth" is not what something costs, but rather what you can get for it if you needed to sell it. New cars are not worth what people pay for them. Diamonds of any size or quality are almost completely worthless. Alienware (Dell?) is clearly attempting to devalue the second-hand market and it may be within their rights to deny sale of accessories to people who are not the primary equipment owners. But even this is a disservice to "their actual customers" since it truly lowers the resale value of the gear should they choose to sell it at some point down the road.

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

"Your comment is so clearly contradictory it's funny."

Your are right. The funny part is you don't seing the difference between value and cost.

Re:Cars

[tomhudson]

This the place, because Alienware isn't the only one. How else are you going to find out you don't need the caddy if you don't ask on places like slashdot? I couldn't buy a 2nd hard drive caddy for my HP laptop - the part seems to exist, but nobody can convince HP to sell it - they want to bundle it with a 2nd hard drive or some such nonsense.

However, the fix is $5. Just buy ONLY the connector ($5 from various online suppliers). The drive doesn't need a caddy - the caddy is made out of such thin sheet metal because even the thickness of a piece of electrical tape will be enough to wedge the drive firmly in place in its' bay. I ran with 2 hard drives for months - without even the tape - before tracking down a caddy from a similar model.

Re:Cars

[caffino54]

that's hardly true. the companies made the profit when the original sale was made, and it makes absolutely NO difference to them what happens to their product afterward. alienware is just being *quite simply* stupid

Re:Cars

[Thinboy00]

You have a karma bonus so I'll assume the troll moderation was mistaken.

Servicing a vehicle != "accepting" the vehicle | holding onto it.

IANAL

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

alas...my point was that the big companies don't make any profit of a second hand laptop, so they make life difficult for end user. ...

But they do make money on a second hand laptop. The resale value of the laptop allows them to charge a higher price initially.

I want a laptop for 2 years. I am willing to pay $1000 to use it for 2 years. If I can sell it at the end of it's life for $250, then I am willing to pay $1250 when I buy it. If I can't resell it (resale of $0), then I am only willing to pay $1000 initially.

Accusing customers of theft is stupid. Many jurisdictions have laws that say if you buy something in good faith, then you own it, regardless of whether it is stolen or not (put in place to protect pawn brokers).

Re:Cars

[chimpo13]

Diamonds of any size or quality are almost completely worthless.

Diamonds, eh? Remember that next time you're fighting the Gorn. Kirk thought the same thing at first.

Re:Cars

[eison]

Car companies actually tried essentially that with their warranty repairs, invalidating warranties if somebody else had been given repair business for anything at any point. Congress had to pass laws against it. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/15/usc_sec_15_00002302----000-.html

I wish Congress would do something useful and pass a law clearly stating that people have the right to resell things they buy, and no company can establish practices that interfere with that. I know it's already common law with the doctrine of first sale, but that doesn't seem to be doing much in these new digital restrictions days.

Re:Cars

[Supernoma]

Yes but he will STILL sell you the part.

Re:Cars

[AHuxley]

I like my older Thinkpad 31x. Nice screen, comfy size, good keyboard. For the same price I could have got an oversized PDA

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

Will they deny me because I'm not an authorized owner of the laptop that the glowing alien head fits on, or will they gladly sell me the part regardless of whether I own one of their laptops or not?

They will deny you because you might stick it on some sub-Alienware-quality computer and try to pass it off for sale as an Alienware. That's what they'll tell you if you ask to buy an empty chassis from them (hey - they've got cool chassis!) anyway. No doubt they'll have the same qualms about selling their trademarks unattached to their product.

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps you'll post an mp3 for us to listen to?

Nope. Ogg vorbis.

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because nobody cares about stealing 2005 Tauruses. Go into your local Ferrari dealer to buy spare parts, and I assure you they will want to know a VIN number, and, if it's the first time you're there, they'll want to see the car, too.
(Gosh, why are you hassling me.. I just need a new drivers side lock mechanism, and while you're at it, the ignition lock too.)

Re:Cars

[Dgawld]

Anyone who buys a Used car from the owner for cash without any paperwork or title transfer should have to go through that.

Re:Cars

[HeronBlademaster]

Not my point :P The instant I hit "submit", though, I knew someone would comment on my choice of "mp3" for the sound format, but it was too late to change it to something non-specific.

Re:Cars

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

The key word - which I didn't include in my original post, alas - is "unsubstantiated". I looked at the blog and just saw someone's rant and claims of receiving an email. Is he telling the truth? Probably. But if he wants to make his point, he includes all the evidence that he has to date -- there should be plenty.

And I don't mean buried in older blog posts - I mean in the post that was submitted to slashdot, and thus subject to the scrutiny of hundreds of thousands of people .

Re:Cars

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

You would be surprised at how poorly policed title transfer is. I have a good friend who bought a $50K used car from a dealer only to have the FBI impound it between the point when he paid the dealer and when the shipping company should have picked it up later that week - and the only reason the FBI impounded it was because the real owner had connections to LE, even then it took 2 months before they did. The dealer had an officially issued title, it turned out that the car was stolen through fraud (fake cashiers check). My friend had to sue the dealer to get his money back and even though he won in court the dealer declared bankruptcy so my friend was basically fucked.

Re:Cars

[KillerBob]

Dell's policy is to not talk to people who aren't authorized on the account that owns the computer. Considering the number of laptops that get stolen, that's a good policy, IMO.

Now if the user bought the computer legally on e-Bay, he should have some kind of sales receipt, or at least know the name of the person he bought it from. If he knows the name of the person he bought it from he can go online to the Alienware website and fill out a transfer of ownership form. If he doesn't know the name, or he bought it from a retailer, he can fax in a copy of the sales receipt to customer care, and have them transfer the ownership for him.

But instead of doing a little legwork at his end to get the system actually transferred to his name, he chooses to go online and grouse about how a company is treating him like a thief.

Re:Cars

[notseamus]

A few months ago I picked up a desktop tower, 3.2ghz dual core, 512mb nvidia card, 320gb hard drive.

the only problem is the gamers case, and the tricked out blue leds that are inside, but apart from that, bargain.

You can find them if you look.

Re:Cars

[plover]

But when the dealer types the VIN into his computer and it comes up "stolen"[..]

They aren't checking the computer, they're checking the owner. If the dealer took your name instead of the VIN and checked if he had records of a car being sold to you, then calling you a thief because he does not that IS wrong.

Two things. First, RTFA. Nobody from Alienware ever called this guy a thief. He claims he is being treated like a thief, he makes claims like they think he is a thief, but there is nothing in his description where he was given anything but a rebuff for not following their rules.

Second, if the dealer is going to work on your car, he most certainly is going to enter your VIN into their computer, and it is going to be run through the corporate VIN database to look up all kinds of information. That's where vehicle recall notices are posted, service records are maintained, ownership records are maintained, and also where stolen cars are reported. If you want to avoid this kind of scrutiny, don't take a possibly stolen car to a dealership for service -- take it to a shade tree mechanic instead.

This guy failed to provide any requested evidence of any proof of purchase, and is mad because AW won't deal with him. He's making it sound like they're calling him a "thief" without evidence that they ever did so. So far, they've done nothing wrong, but it looks this guy has whipped himself up into a self-righteous froth.

Re:Cars

[KillerBob]

Nope. There isn't a law that specifically requires you to report a stolen vehicle in your service bay. But if it later turns out that you knowingly serviced a stolen vehicle and allowed it to remain unreported, you can be charged with being an accessory to grand theft, or if they're feeling particularly vicious, with abetting said crime.

But it's a moot point... the only repair shops that routinely check the VIN are dealers and people looking for recalls to perform. If somebody goes into a garage and says 'fix the brakes' the garage isn't going to check whether it's still in warranty so that it can invoice GM for the work, it's going to assume that if it was in warranty, you'd take it to the dealer in the first place. Most car thieves aren't stupid enough to take a car to a dealer to have it fixed.

Re:Cars

[plover]

I was using a very real car analogy for how auto thefts are handled. I see little difference here. We have no idea why Alienware is stonewalling this guy. He's claiming "oh, poor me, they think I'm a thief!" Instead, I'm claiming "there are other legitimate reasons for them to not sell him the part, especially when he is refusing to cooperate with their requests."

According to TFA, Alienware never called this guy a thief, but when you read the very title of this story, the guy makes it sound like they're sounding an alarm siren and flashing the red lights whenever they get an email from him.

Pay no attention to the hype! Pay no attention to the hype!

Re:Cars

[fumblebruschi]

That doesn't make any sense. When I needed a new power supply for my old T21 Thinkpad, I just called IBM and ordered one. They didn't ask why I wanted it, or ask me to prove I hadn't stolen my laptop. Why would they? It's a spare part. They have no reason to care what I do with it.

The same seems to apply to this case, from what I can tell. The guy wanted a spare part. He called Alienware to order it. Why did they even ask what he wanted it for? If he were going to use it as a paper weight, or as a weird kind of sex toy, what difference does that make to them? It's a spare part.

Re:Cars

[Gerzel]

Yes you can. You can't if you want to be right but if you want to have an excuse not to provide service then go ahead.

They did.

Re:Cars

[fishbowl]

That's all well and good, if the property is indeed stolen.

On the other hand, when someone falsely accuses you of a felony, that's a crime.

I'd be demanding that they either accuse me of the crime by way of notifying the proper authorities, or to admit to those same authorities that they falsely raised the accusation.

I'd be looking for tens of millions in damages, either way.

Re:Cars

[sjames]

When the Alienware laptop costs even a tenth of the Ferrari, perhaps they'll have a point.

Re:Cars

[fishbowl]

"Now if the user bought the computer legally on e-Bay, he should have some kind of sales receipt, or at least know the name of the person he bought it from."

Blah blah blah. If you accuse me of a crime, you'd better be prepared to repeat the accusation to my attorney and to a judge. You'd also better have some evidence, or you might be headed down a dangerous road.

After you accuse me of a *crime*, the burden of proof is on YOU. You don't get to ask me for receipts, names of the people I know, or anything else. The police are going to be asking YOU for YOUR evidence, and when it turns out you have none, my case against you for slander and defamation will be simple to make.

Re:Cars

[zxsqkty]

In my experience, most dealer parts stores _will_ ask for a VIN for your vehicle if you ask them for a headlight; that way they can ensure you get the right part for your model year.

However, a VIN is not taken as proof of rightful ownership - in fact I can buy parts for anyone else's car without question. Why should computer parts be any different?

By the way, VIN number contains a redundancy ;)

Re:Cars

[fishbowl]

The OP doesn't know, but that's not the issue. The company doesn't know either, but has already set foot on the dangerous path of accusing someone of a crime while having no evidence to support the accusation.

Re:Cars

[fishbowl]

My state has a law that requires a vehicle title transfer. However, there is no law that requires me to take any action if I buy a toaster oven at a garage sale, or a computer on Ebay.

If I buy a toaster oven at a garage sale that turns out to be stolen, in order to accuse me of being in possession of stolen goods, you need evidence. You cannot just walk up and say "I think you maybe stole that or maybe bought it from someone who stole it." That's slander, at best. If you involve the police in your baseless accusation, that gets into heavy territory where you've lied to the police about the strength of your evidence, and it is possible for you to go to jail for this, in some places.

Re:Cars

[plover]

There's no indication that he's stolen it, they're assuming he has.

Wrong. RTFA. Nowhere does he say that Alienware called him a thief. He quoted their denial to sell him a part, read it for yourself. He may "feel like" he's being treated like a thief, but that's miles away from Alienware actually assuming he's a thief.

It sounds like the machine is supposed to have a plate on it with a warranty number. Alienware has reasonably asked for that information, but it was stripped off before he bought it used from eBay. Is there nothing suspicious about that statement? In the automotive world, tampering with or removing the VIN before selling the car is a crime all by itself:

TITLE 18. CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I. CRIMES
CHAPTER 113. STOLEN PROPERTY
18 USCS Section 2321 (2003)

Section 2321. Trafficking in certain motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts

(a) Whoever buys, receives, possesses, or obtains control of, with intent to sell or otherwise dispose of, a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part, knowing that an identification number for such motor vehicle or part has been removed, obliterated, tampered with, or altered, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

I'd say that even if Alienware did assume the machine was stolen, they'd be perfectly justified, given the evidence provided in TFA.

Re:Cars

[fishbowl]

>Alienware have no obligation to deal with this guy.

After they falsely accused him of theft, they may very well have an obligation to deal with the guy's lawyer and the judge.

It's one thing to refuse to do business with you. It's another thing to refuse to do business for an *illegal reason.*

Re:Cars

[icebike]

But the company MAY WELL know. If the owner of record reported it stole TO ALIENWARE then they would be protecting the interest of their customers.

Re:Cars

[getuid()]

That's easy: you don't own a car until you own the two documents that come with it (I don't know the english terms for those, however, here in the EU it's 1) a document that you are always required to be able to present to the police at traffic controls, and 2) another document, that you're supposed to keep safe).

If you own document #2, it's your car, period. Doesn't matter what any record sais -- with document #2, you can order new keys, replace locking mechanisms, and you can at _any_ time claim that you bought the car from the legitimate owner, and then it's them who have to prove otherwise in front of the law.

As for a computer, it's the same as with any other ordinary object: by law, posession implies ownership, period. If I have your laptop, it's _you_ who has to provide the evidence that I stole it, not the other way round.

Re:Cars

[fishbowl]

>Servicing a vehicle != "accepting" the vehicle | holding onto it.

Asserting the option to hold the vehicle under a mechanic's lien, however, can be construed this way. And it's quite common for service contracts to assert the right to hold the property if payment is not received.

Innocent shill buys a stolen vehicle from a car lot. Takes it to a mechanic for service. Does not pay. Mechanic asserts a lien on the vehicle. Vehicle is reported stolen and the lot owner is arrested. Complication: Lot owner is a relative or business partner of the mechanic. Now the mechanic and the innocent shill both appear to be in a conspiracy with the lot owner, dealing in stolen goods!

Re:Cars

[supernova_hq]

The laptop was NOT reported stolen!

The laptop was simply sold privately to somebody else, which is completely legal. The only person who reported or even speculated that the machine "may" be stolen, was AlienWare themselves. The only "proof" they had was that the person who bought it did not re-register it under the new user, which for a laptop is fucking stupid.

Re:Cars

[fishbowl]

>They are, however, treating him like a criminal because he is not the person who brought the
>laptop from them in the first place.

Actually they aren't treating him like a criminal so much, as treating him like someone who is not a client in a private sales organization. It's not much different than the country club that doesn't let you eat at the restaurant.

From Dell's point of view, they really track their supply chain down to minuscule detail. If they don't limit their parts business to the known customer base, their whole supply chain model suffers. If you've ever done SCM, you know that what looks insignificant in a single detail, can add up to millions of dollars in waste, even at the nut-bolt-washer level.

So Dell doesn't sell spare parts to the general public. You have to have an existing, known, documented business relationship with them.

It might even be possible for someone like the OP to *create* that relationship, but probably not after screaming about how they accused him of being a thief, and posting on Slashdot about it... That's definitely not the way to go about it.

Re:Cars

[plover]

I'm fairly certain that even if it is stolen, if you buy goods without knowledge that they are stolen (i.e., in good faith) you are considered a buyer in the ordinary course of business and you'll take free of any prior interests. It's called the "garage sale rule". The person from whom it was stolen can still hold the thief liable for damages, but can't get their original goods back. If that's the case here, this guy is legally the rightful owner and Alienware should treat him as such.

You didn't have to write it, but You Are Not A Lawyer, and you should warn people before posting legal advice (especially incorrect legal advice.) There is no such legal concept as the "garage sale rule" with respect to stolen property. According to the law, as the purchaser of merchandise you have the same rights to the property as the person who sold it to you. That means if have a thing which you have used as collateral on a debt (called a secured interest) and you haven't paid it all back yet, even if you sell it to me the property is still secured by the bank, and can be repossessed by them if the loan is not repaid. It also means that if you have no rights to the property at all, as in the case of stolen property, then I as the buyer have no rights to it either.

A garage sale does provide protection from the seller being compelled to look up the serial number if such a lookup is required of an "ordinary course of business" seller; in the case of a garage sale the seller is classified as not an "in the ordinary course" seller and is exempted from that requirement. Maybe that's what you are thinking of as a "garage sale rule".

Of course I am not a lawyer either, so don't take this as gospel, but at least I do a bit of fact checking before making a really outlandish claim.

Re:Cars

[KillerBob]

After you accuse me of a *crime*, the burden of proof is on YOU. You don't get to ask me for receipts, names of the people I know, or anything else. The police are going to be asking YOU for YOUR evidence, and when it turns out you have none, my case against you for slander and defamation will be simple to make.

And there's a difference between accusing you of a crime and saying that I'm not going to help you with your computer until you've proven you own it legitimately. Dell/Alienware has zero obligation to provide any support whatsoever to you for a system that isn't covered by warranty. None. And the terms of their warranty say that it's transferrable, but you have to prove that you bought it legitimately rather than stole it. That's more than you get from most other vendors in the computer market.

Just because it's a big corporation doesn't mean that they are required to sell to you. The only circumstances under which refusing to service/sell to you are when it's a human rights issue... if they refuse to sell to women, that's illegal. if they refuse to sell to homosexuals, that's illegal. if they refuse to sell to jews, that's illegal. if they refuse to sell to anybody who's physically disabled, that's illegal. if they refuse to sell to somebody who doesn't want to prove that they came by it legally, then that's well within their rights as a corporation.

Re:Cars

[plover]

RTFA. He never wrote that Alienware directly accused him of a crime, or of being a thief. He is complaining that he is being treated like a thief. There is a significant difference between the two statements.

Re:Cars

[FatdogHaiku]

The person from whom it was stolen can still hold the thief liable for damages, but can't get their original goods back.

A little googling brings up a lot of sites to dispute that claim:
http://www.legal-explanations.com/definitions/possession-of-stolen-goods.htm
http://definitions.uslegal.com/p/possession-of-stolen-property/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possession_of_stolen_goods
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/possession+of+stolen+goods

If you can prove something was stolen from you, you can get it back or get compensated for it's value most of the time... the operative word is "prove". This is why it's important to mark your stuff in a manner most thieves will miss... like writing your name on the top of an ATX power supply before you install it. On laptops the inside of the RAM cover plate AND under the battery are both good. This also helps keep your stuff out of police auctions.

Just because you claim not to have known something was stolen does not allow you to keep the item, and if it can be shown you either have it or converted (sold or traded) it then you are on the hook for it, regardless of what you knew at the time.

Re:Cars

[fishbowl]

>Well no, he's not asking Alienware to fix anything for him (under warranty or paying
>directly), he's just simply asking to buy a spare part from them so he can fix it himself.

Just order it "through your company's purchasing agent." Do it with a written PO. Then when they challenge you, which they won't, you've got the social engineering angle that you can work: "I don't know, somebody in the our Marketing department requests it."

Re:Cars

[karnal]

Those two documents in the US are:

1. Registration. Police will ask you for your Driver's Licence, Vehicle Registration and Proof of Insurance at traffic stops.
2. Title. This proves you bought and own the vehicle. If you have a loan on the vehicle, you get what's called a white title, which means you own the car but have a loan on it. I don't know how leasing works - probably similar with a white title or something....

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

Where did you get the impression from the story that a "VIN" or serial was even checked?

What I got from the story is. Person buys a car and goes to the dealer to order part. Dealer refuses to sell part unless he proves that the car belongs to him. In my part of the world I don't have to won the car to fix it or buy parts for it. If I or the dealer suspect the car is stolen I/we are to call the authorities and have them deal with the situation.

Re:Cars

[SupremoMan]

Stop making sense!

Re:Cars

[Toonol]

Of course they have the right not to sell him a part. Nobody reasonable denies that.

Customers also have the right to complain about it, spread the word that Dell/Alienware is a pisspoor company to do business with, and that the resale value of Dell products is especially low. Everything is legal, above board, and hopefully in the long run, it will all work out for the best.

Re:Cars

[Brian Gordon]

Diamonds are great for cutting hard metals and sharpening knives.

Re:Cars

[tagno25]

yes, but a person should be able to buy a part for a car (laptop) without even having to prove that the even own said car (laptop).
If I went Into a dealership (computer store) and asked for a radio (drive tray) then I should be able to purchase said part without them asking for any information if I have cash in hand.

Re:Cars

[Mashiki]

I've never been to a parts store where anyone asks for a VIN, and if I did I'd be as suspicious of that as I would be if I saw someone wandering around outside looking *at* VIN's on cars. Perhaps you live somewhere in the world where VIN cloning isn't an issue.

I however do, so much so that they're looking at making it a federal crime.

Re:Cars

[Shimmer]

Worst car analogy ever.

Have you ever heard of "pink slip"? Car ownership is registered with the government especially for this purpose. There is no doubt who owns your car, and I think the dealership could check if they were suspicious.

You want to register your computer with the government to establish ownership? No, I didn't think so.

Re:Cars

[tftp]

If the owner of record reported it stole TO ALIENWARE then they would be protecting the interest of their customers.

Then Alienware is doing a poor job on that protection. One of smartest things for them to do would be to take your order, ship you the spare part, and tell cops all about your order and your address. Then the cops will have a chance to investigate.

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

i own an alienware m17x. paid around $6000 for it. when i call them they have given me nothing but absolute top notch service. they have answered my calls at 3am and stayed on the phone with me till 6am. i have absolutely no complaints from them whatsoever and will suggest them to people lookin to buy a new laptop.

but! the first thing they ask me when they answer is "what is your alienware account number"? i imagine if i could not provide that, the problems begin. they made money from my 6000 initial purchase. far more than this guys tiny little 150. to them 150 is chump change when you look at what they deal. while i agree they should just sell this guy his part and pocket the change, that is not their business model. if you buy a car, you make sure to transfer the title to your name, and this guy should have done the same. he bought a ferari of computers but forgot to get the title.

also, this is not like buying a battery. the part he is asking for is something i eventually decided after receiving my computer i wanted to. they placed my order and i received it within 5 days. it is not a battery, it is a specific part that only they make for their laptops. its like a dealer only car part provided only to their customers who pay the premium. i disagree with this on a personal level and am a little let down to read it, but i understand they made their money on my 6000, not the 150 i decided on later. part of their service to buy upgrades is included in that 6000 that this guy did not pay. someone did, but not him. he is not entitled to that unless he completes the full transfer of ownership.

Re:Cars

[plover]

Where did you get the impression from the story that a "VIN" or serial was even checked?

From TFA, where Alienware asked for a "warranty number" and refused to sell him the parts without it. He has no warranty number, and in fact said the name plate was removed from the machine (which would actually be a felony if this were a car and a VIN.) In order to get parts, they are requiring him to provide the warranty number.

Considering the extremely large problem of stolen laptops these days it's no surprise they are stonewalling people with no direct evidence of ownership. They've sent him a perfectly reasonable request: get the previous owner to associate him with the warranty. This will ensure he is not a thief by proving the legitimate owner they know of approved of the transfer of goods.

Re:Cars

[HeronBlademaster]

If a parts store asked for my VIN, I'd say no. I'd gladly tell them the year, make, and model, but they have no reason to need the VIN.

Last time I bought a part from a dealer was last year, when I bought a negative battery cable from a local Honda dealership. They didn't ask for the VIN, they just asked for the year, make, and model. They don't need any more information.

Yes, I realize "VIN number" is redundant... I was in a hurry, so I didn't proofread very well. A free dinner was waiting for me ;)

Re:Cars

[HeronBlademaster]

Why does it matter whether he paid the $6000 or someone else did? The fact of the matter is, someone paid the initial purchase amount, and someone is buying an additional part later - Alienware has no reason to care that those two people are different.

Furthermore, a customer account at Alienware is hardly proof of ownership, even if that account lists prior purchases - those purchases might be gifts, the computer might be a hand-me-down, etc etc; there are a dozen reasons a person might legitimately have an Alienware computer without having the customer account somehow "transferred" to his name.

In simpler terms, if I regularly buy Alienware computers, and I decide to buy one for my cousin, why should I have to put my entire customer account in his name just so he can buy a spare part? It's a completely stupid business model.

I should also point out that it wastes more of Alienware's money in terms of time to take a call and argue with a customer about whether he can buy a part than it would to just sell him the part in the first place.

Oh, and your comment here:

but i understand they made their money on my 6000, not the 150 i decided on later.

You seem to be implying that the initial purchase amount somehow subsidizes later parts purchases. Besides the aforementioned "Who cares? Someone paid the $6000" argument I provided earlier, there's the obvious "Do you really think they're losing money on the $5 piece of metal they're selling for $150?" If you think they are, you're a little confused about how the world works.

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

well then i call BS on you! as i have been arrested for dealing in stolen property. not because i sold anything, or stole anything either (but i was there at the time it was stolen and knew it was stolen). the police charged me as an accomplice because i accepted money from my friend after he stole and sold it but did not report it before accepting money on property i knew was stolen.

check your books, maybe if money wasnt involved i would have been ok, but im sure a dealer that makes money working on something they know for a fact is stolen will be considered an accomplice.

the police explained it very clearly to me. if you know of a murder and do not report it, you are guilty. period. and maybe you are a law student, but i can tell you now, the judge is going to disagree with your post here. no one listen to this persons advice as i can tell you from real life experience how it really will unfold. it will involve you being unhappy. lawyers arent always right, and i can tell you what the judge you face will say. and when he says it, your lawyers and this guy opinion will mean $#!+

Re:Cars

[jnork]

Of course they have no obligation. After the money is spent the only obligation they have is warrantee. After that they can tell everybody, direct customers included, to take a hike if they want to.

This isn't about legal obligation. This is about poor customer service and short-sighted policies.

And DON'T try to split hairs by pointing out it was bought second-hand and therefore the fellow isn't really a customer. As others have pointed out, refusing to deal with second-hand customers (even if they just cut out the ones without documentation) reduces the after-sale worth of the laptop, thus reduces the perceived worth of a new purchase. It also alienates potential new customers who may have bought a used one this year, but might decide to buy a new one next year -- unless they get treated like crap by the so-called customer service.

In fact, sales and marketing go on the assumption that ANYBODY is a potential customer. Apparently customer service assumes that if you've never bought one new, you never will. I sense a dichotomy in corporate policy, or some very stupid people.

But I guess most corporate policy is pretty short-sighted these days.

Goverment's not much better.

Re:Cars

[1u3hr]

Bottom line: how does Mr. Paget know that his laptop isn't stolen merchandise?

RTFA. Paget works at Ebay as a security consultant. If anyone can tell, he can.

But when the dealer types the VIN into his computer and it comes up "stolen"...

Fuck, what is it with Slashdot and car analogies? Can't anyone think of computers AS COMPUTERS? Anyway, there is no "VIN" or serial number (another fact I learnt from RTFA). Alienware is assuming that if they didn't sell it, it is stolen. They apparently do not recognise that owners have the right of resale. That's what the point of the story is.

Re:Cars

[thesupraman]

Actually you are very wrong.

I almost all countries selling goes without reasonably availability of parts and service is against the law.

For cars there are even often quite specific laws - same for consumer electronics in many countries.

In the 'good old days' before such laws it was very common for the repair of such items to cost *nearly* as much as a new item, and only be allowed through a 'licensed' repairer, these days (in some countries and for some goods) we have better protection for that.

A lot of this came about from people paying hundreds of dollars for a 10 cent replacement component in TVs.

Consumer Guarantees can be a good thing.

Re:Cars

[jnork]

That's funny. I own a 1996 Taurus -- last time I bought wipers the guy insisted I show him the title first, registration, license, insurance card, then he called the police and checked to make sure it wasn't reported stolen.

Amazing, you'd think they wouldn't have time to do that with all the customers waiting in line... oh wait, THERE WEREN'T ANY. Gosh, now that I tell somebody else about it...

(I really do own a '96 Taurus. The rest of the above may not have a perfect one-to-one correspondence with reality.)

Re:Cars

[mysidia]

Maybe not the best choice of analogy... they may ask to see your registration before working on your vehicle, depending on the work they're doing, and if you require a new inspection sticker or not...

This is like going to the hardware store and asking to buy some paint, but they won't sell it to you until you show them the deed to your house, to prove you legally bought a house from a realtor that is on their approved list, for security reasons (they want to make sure you didn't steal a house).

Re:Cars

[1u3hr]

It sounds like the machine is supposed to have a plate on it with a warranty number. Alienware has reasonably asked for that information,

Reasonably?

In the automotive world, tampering with or removing the VIN before selling the car is a crime all by itself:...

Another totally irrelevant car analogy. WTF is it with people here that they can't think about anything -- software, laptops, relationships -- unless they can put it "in the automotive world"?

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

it is not dell's right to mediate a property transfer from owner to buyer, theft protection or not. This is all just a publicity stunt to dissuade people from buying used machines.

Re:Cars

[1u3hr]

If he knows the name of the person he bought it from he can go online to the Alienware website and fill out a transfer of ownership form

No, he can't. He tried. Alienware don't do that. RTFA.

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

If you call Dell and you give them the part number, they will give you the part, no questions asked... more than likely Alienware too.

BUT.... 98% of the people don't know the part number, or the spare parts phone number... so they end up calling to regular customer service, and going through other loops, ending up not getting the part they want.

is like going to the auto parts store, and instead of asking for brake pads... telling the guy "hey my car is making a sound"... they will send you with a mechanic. Same with the laptop.

Re:Cars

[robpoe]

what are you smoking? They ask you the year and model.

Re:Cars

[Okind]

"I'm fairly certain that even if it is stolen, if you buy goods without knowledge that they are stolen (i.e., in good faith) you are considered a buyer in the ordinary course of business and you'll take free of any prior interests."

"There is no such legal concept as the "garage sale rule" with respect to stolen property."

WRONG: In the US, this rule doesn't exist. But in the Netherlands for example, there IS such a rule. There are some restrictions (most notably related to the price and the situation in which you bought it), and the person whom it was stolen from you can sue the thief for reimbursement.

"but at least I do a bit of fact checking before making a really outlandish claim."

You're probably in a jurisdiction where buying stolen goods in good faith is still a crime. But in some outlandish jurisdictions, this is perfectly fine.

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes there is an indication it has been stolen the serial number/service tag has been removed from the system. The only reason someone would remove this is so it cant be identified when reported stolen. Would you buy a car whose Vin number has been scratched off/removed? They are not accusing the caller as being a thief but as an unlucky victim who purchased a possibly stolen laptop.

Re:Cars

[LaskoVortex]

Another totally irrelevant car analogy. WTF is it with people here that they can't think about anything -- software, laptops, relationships -- unless they can put it "in the automotive world"?

You got me. I don't understand it either. Most of these guys who make these stupid automotive comparisons are like confused idiots driving around and totally lost. I guess they think they can get a lot of mileage out of car analogies. But if you ask me, they are running on empty.

Re:Cars

[aeiouy1]

Car dealers won't do warranty work unless they know who you are. I am not sure why this is such a big deal. If he can't prove he legitimately paid for the machine and acquired all rights to it, why should they spend resources helping him. They did not sell him the machine. None of their authorized resellers sold him the machine. He does not have a legitimate beef. If he has a problem he needs to take it up with the person who sold him the machine and tell him he did not give him everything.

Re:Cars

[phantomfive]

that's:

1. Treat your customers well.
2. Sell good stuff.
3. Profit.

Maybe more complicated than that, but not much.

Re:Cars

[Omnifarious]

I notice that law mentions motor vehicles, but not computers. I fail to understand its relevance to this discussion. Was this computer extremely heavily modded or something so it fell under this law?

Re:Cars

[plover]

That's nice for you, but me, elmedico27, and the author of the article are all in America. Other jurisdictions are not under discussion here.

Here, buying stolen goods in good faith is also not a crime, but ownership of the stolen goods never passes to you. The victim gets his property back, and the problem of recompense falls between you and the thief or you and the seller. Some companies or people may choose to behave in a different, more generous manner (Paypal guarantees, that sort of thing,) but they are not legally compelled to do so here.

Re:Cars

[PawnII]

I am going to tell you a true story regarding companies and stolen goods.

I brough a Wii 2 years ago, and after 6 months somebody broke into my house and stole it.

I tough well I will contact Nintendo and will let them know that it has been stolen so that they can have a note in the system in case the thief will bring it down to repairs or something like that.

Wrote an email to their customer service, stating the serial number and my name, guess what was their response?

"Sorry but thats not our problem we cant help you if they want to make a warranty valid we will honor it"

Not their exact words but I am to lazy to search for the email at the moment.

So I tried to inform them that my product was stolen and that if they received it for service just refuse it to do it but they didnt care about it.

I am not blaming nintendo its true its not their problem, but if Alienware is doing this I am not sure that their motive is to protect their customer, it has to do with greed and the fact that they didnt got to sell the product to the client directly.

Just my 2 cents.

Re:Cars

[plover]

I pointed it out because it shows one example in law where removing identification numbers that might hide a crime is a criminal activity in and of itself. Other such examples can be found in FAA regulations, medical devices, pharmaceuticals, and construction.

In this case, removing the serial number plate may not be a primary crime, but it would likely be used as evidence of criminal intent.

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

you can call bs all day but the law probably disagrees with you. "Receipt of stolen property is a type of crime in the legal code of the United States. It is a federal crime under 18 U.S.C. Â 2315 to knowingly receive, conceal, or dispose of stolen property with a value at least $5,000 that is part of interstate commerce (i.e., been transported across state lines)." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Receipt_of_stolen_property

If they knew the property was stolen, they could probably be charged as an accomplice to concealing stolen property.

Re:Cars

[DoninIN]

So? Ebay security consultant? Seriously, WTF does that have to do with knowing whether or not something is stolen? I don't doubt he knows a lot about online security, and ebay scams. Maybe this is a bit of a stretch but most of things I've seen stolen in the actual real world were just... Well stolen, you know? Picked up off a table at a starbucks or snatched from the back of an unlocked car... How exactly does being an Ebay security consultant empower one to determine the physical chain of custody of a particular piece of equipment? Now, if we read his side of the story it doesn't sound like it's stolen. Truthfully I don't like his side of the story, he rants and raves about how they're calling him a "thief" I don't see it that way. I do think their entire policy on this matter looks pretty stupid, and counterproductive. I just fail to see how being an ebay security consultant enables one to tell if things are stolen or not... I measure things for a living and I can't tell how much you weigh based on an e-mail.

Re:Cars

[wisty]

You forgot about opportunity cost.

If you invested the extra $125 in the share market two years ago, you would also have benefited from capital growth and dividends.

Re:Cars

[fishbowl]

Now I realize Dell is doing neither. I now understand Alienware's (Dell's) position in terms of supply chain optimization and it makes perfect sense. In fact, it makes so much sense that I can believe it is a significant competitive advantage for them. I'm also getting the picture that the ingenious choices made by the people who manage Dell manufacturing and their service supply chain, aren't being communicated very well at the consumer service level, which is no surprise of course. If the first line call-center employee or even a call-center manager understands the business at that level, his skills are being wasted. But I bet they *try* to communicate. I bet they have kaizen sessions and all kinds of training, even at the consumer tech support level. I also bet it's all dismissed as so much PHB hokum.

But it's crystal clear to me now, why Dell doesn't operate a demand-driven parts business. I'm seeing the big picture, both in terms of their own supply chain management, which I suspect is an enormous operation in its own right, and also in terms of Dell's relationship to the vendors that supply their components. In certain narrow frames of reference, "more sales is better" even if it was at the component/repair part level. But there are significant costs and consequences associated with that kind of operation.

I didn't get it before because I knee-jerked (stupid me, I took the OP at his word!)

Now I can see Dell's position, and I can recognize it as a form of kaizen / Lean manufacturing, and it boils down to this:
1. The number of units in service == the number of registered owners.
2. They can precisely track in-service failure and adjust repair inventory with precision.

It's a dream scenario for ERP.

Likely, they learned this lesson the hard way, and I bet it was tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars to learn it.

Re:Cars

[1u3hr]

So? Ebay security consultant? Seriously, WTF does that have to do with knowing whether or not something is stolen?

Yes, obviously an Ebay security consultant would be concerned with installing the office stationery from improper use.

Re:Cars

[BrianRaker]

Actually, it's Dell as a whole. I recently put in a call to Dell for support on a Latitude D820 that now fails to boot. It's covered under warranty for another year but Dell refuses to work on it because I'm not listed as the purchaser or authorized agent for the system. My business bought this system through an employee (via a reimbursement) who no longer works with the organization. I don't have any reasonable way to have this ex-employee 'vouch' that I own the system.

Whatever happened to the days where I could just give them my Express Service Code and actually get help instead of getting accusations of theft?

Re:Cars

[fishbowl]

>I almost all countries selling goes without reasonably availability of parts and service is
>against the law.

Do you think the warranty is strictly to protect the consumer?

It does more to protect the producer. While giving legal assurances to the consumer, it also limits the responsibilities to the producer to a specific time frame. If you think there is a law that forces Dell to provide repair parts past the warranty period for a given unit, or if you think there is a law that requires Dell to operate a component exchange or a retail business for the sale of repair parts, or to be willing to sell repair parts to anyone who does not have an existing business relationship with Dell, cite that law here:

Dell's rationale for not operating a demand-driven service and repair enterprise is very clear to me now. This story forced me to read between the lines, injecting some things I know from the inside of a manufacturing business, and I now recognize something that I have no doubt amounts to a significant competitive advantage for Dell. At first glance it appears to be a stupid way to do business, and I'm guessing it looks that way to the call-center reps who have to follow the "stupid" policy. But it's not stupid. In fact, I'd be willing to bet it is *essential* to the sustainability of the company.

Run the idea past anybody with a few years of experience in industrial SCM and they should be able to explain it far better than I could. I'm not at liberty to talk about it in detail, but I could tell you a true story of a cotter pin (a part with no significant accounting value) cost a company a quarter of a million dollars. There are "stupid" policies that don't make a bit of sense until something like that gets billed to your department.

Re:Cars

[fishbowl]

Right. I realize now, the "thief" stuff is his own interpretation of the company refusing to do business with him because he does not have an existing business relationship with the company.

The company doesn't give a damn about theft. The company has to minimize supply chain and inventory costs, and they do that by strictly limiting access to their service business to their customers.

I'm guessing the people in the call center don't understand the purpose of the policies. But then, maybe they do. Any slashdotters work at Dell? What do they call their optimization model? Some flavor of kaizen and/or Lean?

In the big picture, these policies that seem "anti-consumer" and "stupid" are actually very, very smart, and very much in the consumer's favor. I'm sure people at Dell work pretty hard to minimize waste and maintain any competitive advantage they can. And one really good place to look for waste is in inventory management, and avoiding any auxilliary demand-driven business units that aren't contributing to the core business.

Limiting access to the service business only to existing customers is ingenious. From an ERP perspective it's a dream. They can optimize inventories, forecast demand, negotiate with their vendors and internal manufacturing units, track in-service failures and respond in fine-grained ways, predict end-of-life dynamics, and examine the value proposition for say, a recall.

If I could do half of that for just one of our products, I'd be rich.

Don't underestimate the dollar value of waste in an enterprise the size of Dell.

Re:Cars

[Dayze!Confused]

Some do ask for your VIN because then they can make sure they get the headlight that fits your car. You would probably be pretty mad if they gave you the wrong headlight.

With wanting the warranty number though, that is a little much. If I went to the dealership I just tell them I don't have a warranty anymore and they help me fix it for a tooth and a nail, much like this guy for $150.

Of course when they run the VIN if it comes up as Reported Stolen then they call the police about it.

As someone has pointed out earlier, with cars you transfer the title and there is a clear transfer of ownership, not an implied transfer.

Re:Cars

[Dayze!Confused]

That's good for brakes, maybe, but have you tried to buy a piece for the engine? They'll ask for the VIN just to make sure; some cars of the same year have differences in the engine. It is possible that if you know enough about everything in the car that they can find it for you by deduction, but a VIN is much faster.

Re:Cars

[fishbowl]

Once I realized what was really going on, I recognized Dell's policy as *very* intelligent in terms of supply chain, inventory, and customer service. Basically they've created a dream scenario for ERP.

There are also certain risks that they avoid, by not getting into a parts business that's driven by consumer demand. Instead, they have a parts business whose demand is the service organization, not the consumer.

I can't believe I didn't see this immediately. From a SCM perspective, it's ingenious. It's probably essential. Dell probably came to this realization not by genius, though, but by recognizing waste. Or maybe it's a flavor of kaizen. In any case, they accomplish two strategic objectives:

1. Minimize waste in the supply chain for the service business.
2. Tightly control the demand against their upstream vendors (some of which would be internal manufacturing units).

#1 has direct ROI, and I'm sure is accounted for as a competitive advantage.
#2 translates indirectly to improved customer service, OP's perception notwithstanding. (If he *was* the person with an existing business relationship, Dell wouldn't have sold his part to some random other person, or worse, *sold out* of those parts to many random other people.)

One naive way of looking at it would be "why turn down business? you can sell spare parts!"
There's a much bigger picture though, and I'm sure it's the one they see in the C-Suite at Dell. Whether the front-line tech support rep in the call center sees it or cares, is neither here nor there. On the other hand, if I were a Dell exec, I'd see to it that this particular call center rep was made aware of the strategic reason for the situation, and also, was trained with a way to explain it to a person in the OP's situation without OP being persuaded to go tell the world Dell called him a thief.

But then, I don't know if I would ever be able to make an entry-level call center rep understand his role as part of a supply chain optimization problem, or care.

Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to nurse my weekly backup. I love BRU but I hate the BRU console, so I've written my own scheduler. Today is the first day I get to test it on the live system. Fingers crossed.

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

Lets take it one car analogy further!!

You buy a car off someone cash, you go to a dealer just for some rims. Just the part, no service. Then they refuse to sell you their overpriced spinnas. Remember this guy just wanted a hard drive adapter.

Any company that refuses to see accessories(almost always the highest profit margin in electronics)has some really dumb policies. All they had to do was sell the guy an overpriced piece of metal, and profit.

Re:Cars

[Tuidjy]

You are 'fairly certain' and wrong. You will not be charged with any crime, but whatever you paid will be forfeit unless the thief/seller is caught. The merchandise will be returned to the original owner.

Re:Cars

[Leynos]

I really hope you're not trying to equate Alienware hardware with Ferrari cars. I guess a valid example might be someone trying to obtain parts for a mainframe, or similar hardware that isn't sold outside of an established business relationship. But as it stands, the analogy is laughable.

Re:Cars

[Nazlfrag]

Instead, I'm claiming "there are other legitimate reasons for them to not sell him the part, especially when he is refusing to cooperate with their requests."

Can you name a single legitimate reason to refuse selling him the part? As for their requests, they requested him to be added as an authorised user of a strangers account. This is quite an unreasonable request, for both him and the stranger, and he has every reason to dispute it.

Re:Cars

[Jaazaniah]

Exactly. Unfortunately, standards have not been adopted for laptop structure or parts that would allow this guy to jump to a competitor. That leaves him trying to buy an obscure part 2nd hand because the company in control of the only source of first-hand equipment seems to think that denying sale to someone who claims to have a laptop of theirs is a brilliant idea.

Personally, Dell has been on my blacklist for a long time, no one I know ever gets that brand as a positive recommend from me, and now Alienware will get the same treatment.

Harsh? Not in the least. When I had trouble with my ASUS motherboard, sure they wanted an SN, but I never had to go through the hassle of telling them ahead of time that I bought that serial numbered product before I called up tech support. The fact that there was a serial number and (perhaps) it didn't kick back an error in their system was enough for them to just help me solve my problem, AND I never have to deal with them AT ALL if I decide to drop it into a new case, I DON'T need their say-so.

Develop standards for laptop hardware and enforce them, and then you'll see the provider market change. It worked for desktops.

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

Dell's policy is to not talk to people who aren't authorized on the account that owns the computer. Considering the number of laptops that get stolen, that's a good policy, IMO.

It's an exceptionally bad policy.

The number of laptops that get stolen is miniscule in respect to the number of laptops that are sold second hand or given to other family members and friends as gifts.

Re:Cars

[Fizzl]

Here in Finland you can be charged for Concealment of Stolen goods if you do not return the goods to the rightful owner when ownership is proven. You have to press charges for Fraud against whoever sold the goods to you to reclaim your money. Collecting from some random scumbag may prove impossible, but tough luck, you should have been more careful while making the trade.

Re:Cars

[instarx]

Well actually.... they won't sell you a key or an electronic fob unless you can prove you own the car.

Re:Cars

[MichaelSmith]

2. Title. This proves you bought and own the vehicle. If you have a loan on the vehicle, you get what's called a white title, which means you own the car but have a loan on it. I don't know how leasing works - probably similar with a white title or something....

Hmmm I wonder why the Government goes to the trouble of doing that. Here in Australia title only applies to land. Cars are just normal property. I can think of plenty of things more expensive than cars. Some boats, aircraft, even houses can and have been stolen.

Re:Cars

[EvilDrMike]

I don't know how it work where you are but here is how it works in good old blighty

1. You buy good for a really good price ;)

2. You buy goods for market price

1 you are looking at receiving stolen goods if it is stolen and 2 you are just unlucky. In both cases you are out of pocket. There is of course option 3 you wait out several hundred years in which case it is yours. Doesn't work so well with computers (or with people that last approx 100years) Still a good wheeze if you can pull it off.

Either way no you can not keep stolen property even if you did buy it on ebay/from some guy in a pub.

EDM

Re:Cars

[drawfour]

There is absolutely no legal duty to report someone else's possession of stolen property to the police.

You sure about that? In most juisdictions, it's called "an accessory after the fact". If you know a crime has been committed, and you are not in the position for that knowledge to be privileged (doctor, lawyer, clergy), you are usually obligated to report it to the police.

Re:Cars

[commodore64_love]

Perhaps they are taking-to-heart Ron Paul's comment that "A lot of bad investment exists and those companies must be allowed to fail, so they can be broken-up and sold." Alienware is just volunteering to be next-in-line.

I'm serious. Alienware's piss-poor customer service, refusing to sell a $150 plastic drive holder, is costing them FAR more than just 150 dollars. By this point they've probably lost a couple million in customer sales (like me - who was planning to buy a new machine). That's a perfect way to go bankrupt.

Re:Cars

[commodore64_love]

So in other words, using your examples, a jew, woman, homosexual, or disabled person has more rights than a white male. They can sue Alienware under current laws; the white guy can not.

What a great society we've created. I thought we were all supposed to have *equal* rights. :-( It reminds me of when a Motel 6 manager kicked me out of his hotel, despite me being there for six months and causing no trouble (he simply wanted to sell my room to summer tourists). A lawyer told me straight-up if I was black, I'd have a case based upon racial discrimination, but as a white man I should just forget about it and move on, because I won't win.

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

alas...my point was that the big companies don't make any profit of a second hand laptop, so they make life difficult for end user. Whether it was stolen or not it beside the point. You can't assume something was stolen just because it was bought second hand.

Are you kidding me? I see this as the company protecting the true owner of the laptop. All you guys see is a big company and you demonize them. I think this is a good policy and this post should be how this company is champion the true owner of the laptop that had it stolen from him or her.

Re:Cars

[fractoid]

No, but if I phone Toyota and say "I'd like to buy a left hand door glass" they generally say "certainly, that will be $300", not "You need to replace a car window? The car is stolen, isn't it?"

Re:Cars

[LordVader717]

The price for the hardware as new depreciates rapidly. And sellers generally price their systems relative to what they payed, rather than the value.
Basically most used systems older than a year or two will not likely be worth more than entry-level machines today.

Re:Cars

[tomhudson]

Fair enough, but if you've ever tried to get a hd caddy for a laptop from the manufacturer, their stance is counter-intuitive. You'd think that they'd want to sell them and make some money, instead of making them impossible to get. Maybe they're thinking that, if people can't throw in a second drive, they'll just buy a new laptop, but it doesn't work that way nowadays. It's easy for anyone to change hard drives, add a second one if there's space for it (flip over the case - if it's a 17" you should see a second drive bay), and upgrade memory.

And any geek should be able to McGiver something that works out of duct tape or a few soda-pop/beer can pull tabs.

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

If you bought a car, then take it to a dealership, they run the VIN(stolen), or even if there is no VIN(stolen), they'd most likely call the cops and you can kiss your car goodbye.

Re:Cars

[Karellen]

"So in other words, using your examples, a jew, woman, homosexual, or disabled person has more rights than a white male."

Where the fuck did the GP write that? He didn't explicitly say "if they refuse to sell to white males, that's illegal" but it's implied, just like "if they refuse to sell to black people, that's illegal" is also implied, even though he didn't explicitly say that either. Or are you calling him a racist?

Are you really so fucking dumb you can't tell the difference between a list containing a few random examples, and an authoritative complete enumeration?

We do all have equal rights. The point is that the "somebody" in "if they refuse to sell to somebody who doesn't want to prove that they came by it legally, then that's well within their rights" is irrespective of age, race, sex, sexual orientation, or any other physical characteristic you care to name. The "somebody" includes whites, blacks, jews, men, women, straights, gays, bis or whatever.

FFS!

Re:Cars

[enrevanche]

They are required to make repair parts available for a certain amount of time after the initial sale regardless of who owns the product. There is nothing in the consumer protection act that gives them the right to refuse the sale. They do so because they can get away with it and there is no way outside of suing them in the US to get appropriate redress. They are breaking the law but they know that it is not worth it to an individual to fight it.

Re:Cars

[enrevanche]

The company does NOT know it was stolen. If they did, they would be required by law to report it to the police.

Re:Cars

[Dun Malg]

Quit it with the failed car analogies already. The car would've shown up as stolen when you tried to register it. You wouldn't have even gotten to the dealership before you had the government involved trying to nail down the title.

Re:Cars

[drinkypoo]

Imagine if you paid cash for a car from a guy selling one in his driveway. A few months later, maybe you need a brake job, so you head to the dealer to have them do the work.

Except this is a case where the guy headed to the dealer, to buy a part, and they refused to sell him the part on the assumption that it might be stolen. Consequently, you have to assume that Alienware will treat anyone like this if they contact them looking for parts for a used laptop, and so the resale value of the laptop suffers. That gives me less incentive to purchase it in the first place, especially if "resale" means handing it down to a relative and they're going to be calling me in a month or two saying "Alienware says this laptop is stolen! Did you buy it off the back of a truck?! Oh my god, I'm going to Jail!"

Bottom line: how does Mr. Paget know that his laptop isn't stolen merchandise?

How do you know anything isn't stolen merchandise?

Re:Cars

[KillerBob]

So in other words, using your examples, a jew, woman, homosexual, or disabled person has more rights than a white male. They can sue Alienware under current laws; the white guy can not.

No. That's not what I said at all. They could refuse to sell to a gay jewish disabled black woman, and as long as they have a legitimate reason besides her minority status to deny her service, then she can't sue them. Refusing to prove that she came by it legally is a perfectly adequate reason.

Minorities don't have greater rights, they have greater protections against discrimination.

Using your example, I don't think you could have won a lawsuit against the motel, even if you were black. You were living there for 6 months, and a motel is not a rent controlled housing. Come peak season, they can legitimately jack up your rate to match seasonal rates, and if you're not willing to pay what he could make for the room (say $100/night, so $3,000/month), then he can quite legally expel you from the room. It's got nothing to do with minority status or lack thereof. A lot of that depends on the judge who hears your case, but in Canada, your case would almost certainly be thrown out of court with prejudice.

Re:Cars

[drinkypoo]

If he knows the name of the person he bought it from he can go online to the Alienware website and fill out a transfer of ownership form.

You are an idiot, and the people who modded you up are bigger idiots. If you would take the time to read the fine summary you would see the words they have no concept of 'ownership transfer' and instead assume that if you're not in their system, you must be a thief. The seller has to adjust the ownership of the system. If it's already changed hands even once this might be unworkable. Finally, the closing paragraph of the FA should put to rest your remaining concerns:

By day, I'm the Team Lead for the Global Information Security Research and Testing Team at eBay; my team is responsible for a wide range of anti-fraud activities at eBay. If it does turn out that this machine has a "colourful" history then it will be returned to its rightful owner, Paypal will refund my money (in accordance with the terms of their guarantee), I will buy something other than an Alienware next time, and I will see to it personally that whoever stole it is prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Now, don't be an idiot! Bad slashdotter. You have to come out of the basement and do your chores today.

Re:Cars

[drinkypoo]

Just because it's a big corporation doesn't mean that they are required to sell to you.

They do when they have a monopoly on the part.

if they refuse to sell to somebody who doesn't want to prove that they came by it legally, then that's well within their rights as a corporation.

He's more than willing to do this, but so far they have made it impossible. What they want is to force him to have someone else do something. I don't think that's within their rights. He has a legal right to purchase a used product and use it for whatever he likes under First Sale law. The company has no right to place any restrictions on HIS use of the system based on the PREVIOUS owner's activities.

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, iirc, homosexuality is not yet a protected "human right," so it's immoral to not sell to homosexuals, but not yet illegal.
On the "we do not discriminate against XYZ" thing you'll see at many corporations, when they add "sexual orientation" to the list, that is their choice to do so; it's not in the law just yet.

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

Hate to break it to you but your rationale falls apart completely when you realize that it depends upon a definition of "customer" that does not include people buying $1 pieces of plastic from you for $150.

Most companies would describe those people as customers.

Re:Cars

[Blakey Rat]

It's their legal right to refuse sale to anybody they want. At least, in the US it is. At least, in most states in the US it is-- some states have exceptions.

In short, it might be a stupid business move, but they're not actually doing anything illegal.

Re:Cars

[Blakey Rat]

Can you point to the exact law they're breaking?

This is the first I've heard of any such thing. Citation needed.

Re:Cars

[kent_eh]

It's against the law almost everywhere to be in Possession of stolen goods.
If you can prove that you had no expectation that the goods were stolen, then you probably won't be charged. But the stolen items will be returned to the original, legitimate owner, and no compensation will be given to whomever they were confiscated from.

Caveat emptor

IANAL, etc...

Re:Cars

[icebike]

Citation needed for both your assertions.

Re:Cars

[sjames]

Typically, in those cases there's a particular digit in the VIN that they're interested in and their interest is only to determine which variation on the engine you have. They are happy to explain that to anyone who wants to know why they want that. Finally if you don't know the VIN and the car isn't the one you drove there in, they will sell you the most likely part and tell you you can come back and trade it out if necessary OR if you brought the bad part with you they'll just visually compare at the counter.

Re:Cars

[Hognoxious]

Dell/Alienware has zero obligation to provide any support whatsoever to you for a system that isn't covered by warranty. None.

What's the relevance of this? He was trying to buy something.

Re:Cars

[Hognoxious]

Three separate posts absolutely full of buzzwords, and yet you can't explain why turning away a sale is a good thing.

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

very few, if any would ever *buy* support for a used laptop, as said support would cost MORE than you paid for the laptop.

that would be BAD company.

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

In practice the effect is the same.

The silly distinction only serves to keep him from suing their pathetic asses.

Re:Cars

[mog007]

WTF is it with people here that they can't think about anything -- software, laptops, relationships -- unless they can put it "in the automotive world"?

Well, analogies are like cars...

Re:Cars

[mog007]

As far as car parts and VINs go, it's possible they might ask for the VIN if you need specific information about the car's motor that you don't happen to know. VINs encode information about the car's engine, as well as offer a unique serial number.

Re:Cars

[RobertM1968]

Add to that equation that the serial number and other identifying marks are missing on the machine and I think you've hit the head right on the nail.

I have a feeling that the conversation really went "OK, can you provide me with the serial number of the machine so we can look it up to figure out what goes into it" "Umm, there is none... I bought it on eBay" "From our store? If not, we cant help you"

Of every time I call any of these companies for support, I'd say that 95% of the time, I am asked for a serial number (usually unless the request is horrendously mundane, or I am calling their parts ordering department directly, and knowing exactly what I need).

I kinda feel that "Chris" is distorting a lot of this story.

Re:Cars

[d3ac0n]

Not to be a "nooge" or anything, but you pretty much DID buy an oversized PDA. An X31 is a remarkably primitive laptop by today's standards.

Re:Cars

[mokumegane]

alas...my point was that the big companies don't make any profit of a second hand laptop, so they make life difficult for end user. Whether it was stolen or not it beside the point. You can't assume something was stolen just because it was bought second hand.

Dude, you got a Dell (pretty much)! I don't think Dell EVER had customer service, unless in the description of the word, you found the phrases: badgering the customer, harassing the customer, accusing the customer of theft, etc. I'm surprised that Dell is still around... but then again... Dude, my mom got a Dell! I suppose it could be worse... she could have problems with the thing and actually NEED customer service. Trust me... with Dell, the ACTUAL customers don't get very good service. What do you think the second-hand buyers will get? Personally, I'd expect nothing good.

Re:Cars

[QuantumG]

You Are Not A Lawyer, and you should warn people before posting legal advice

If you live in a highly litigious society like the US. The rest of us think you're a fucking moron if you get your legal advice from Slashdot and deserve anything that results from such.

 

Re:Cars

[mokumegane]

It sounds like the machine is supposed to have a plate on it with a warranty number. Alienware has reasonably asked for that information,

Reasonably?

In the automotive world, tampering with or removing the VIN before selling the car is a crime all by itself:...

Another totally irrelevant car analogy. WTF is it with people here that they can't think about anything -- software, laptops, relationships -- unless they can put it "in the automotive world"?

Dunno... BUT... cars are REALLY easy to fix... or doctor up... or "fix up" to look like normal but really make it so it'll break down about five minutes after hitting the freeway, pissing off your ex-whatever- er, I mean... Personally... I've never seen a VIN on a computer- wait, would that be CIN? Would you pronounce that sin or kin? Wait, irrelevant yet again. I guess that's too easy to do... (J/K)

Re:Cars

[Firehed]

Supply Chain Management. Dell's profitability over other manufacturers comes largely from their ability to negotiate large-scale, very specific deals for parts arrival. They don't have shelves full of ten thousand hard drives waiting for orders to come in, but rather have tightly integrated systems with HD manufacturers so that they can have just the number they need to fill the day's orders arrive the next day for assembly* (actually, I think it's more based around
EXACT, to-the-minute shipment arrival times for a standard quantity, but the idea of high-precision inventory management remains the same). Same with processors, motherboards, cases, displays, and everything else they sell. In other words, Dell's success is due to their lack of warehouses of spare parts - and that entire system is built on predictability.

So to answer your question: when some guy wants to order a spare part for his machine - even some ten-cent part being sold for $150, the lack of data about what machine it's for can very easily cause far more than the "lost" $149.90 in damages to that predictability. The extra minute it may take for their next shipment of drive trays to come in because someone had to order a spare could easily cost them tens of thousands of dollars of lost productivity on their assembly lines.

*Give or take, but that's the goal of the system. Obviously having that level of precision is pretty much a logistical impossibility, but Dell (last I looked into it, at least) is probably second only to Wal-Mart in their inventory management. Yes, Wal-Mart. How many other companies in the world have the data to know to stock up on strawberry pop-tarts in the couple of days before an impending hurricane?

Re:Cars

[mokumegane]

That doesn't make any sense. When I needed a new power supply for my old T21 Thinkpad, I just called IBM and ordered one. They didn't ask why I wanted it, or ask me to prove I hadn't stolen my laptop. Why would they? It's a spare part. They have no reason to care what I do with it. The same seems to apply to this case, from what I can tell. The guy wanted a spare part. He called Alienware to order it. Why did they even ask what he wanted it for? If he were going to use it as a paper weight, or as a weird kind of sex toy, what difference does that make to them? It's a spare part.

You're talking IBM while the story here is talking Dell. Think, man. IBM is about customer service. Why? IBM is primarily for businesses. Any service provided to businesses has MUCH better customer service than a service provided to the normal Joe out there. Case in point: Sprint. I knew a lady who worked for Sprint customer service. Sometimes, she answered normal consumer calls but usually, she was in the business call center. She said that the customer service for the average customer literally sucked, while the service for businesses was great. The same goes pretty much for any industry out there. The difference here is that IBM/Dell is selling computers/parts, while Sprint is selling cellular phones/service. The moral of this story is: while businesses mean big money, the average Joe doesn't. Bigger money is a bigger motivation for companies to roll out the tea service. Is this smart? I say no. Am I them? I also say no. If I had a business that provided people with something, my customer service would be impeccable. However, any business I would have would most likely be within the small business purview of business types. I actually HAVE had a business before... janitorial. My customers were the happiest alive and they ALWAYS came back to me- including the government.

Re:Cars

[Firehed]

I should also point out that it wastes more of Alienware's money in terms of time to take a call and argue with a customer about whether he can buy a part than it would to just sell him the part in the first place.

If Alienware had shelves full of spare parts sitting around, that would be true. However, Alienware is owned by Dell, and they do no such thing. With very, very few exceptions, every part in a Dell-owned building has already been sold to a customer; ordering extras "out-of-cycle" is actually a fairly large issue to them, and obviously not one that costs less than $150 to deal with.

Re:Cars

[HeronBlademaster]

Right, that's why it's so hard to buy spare parts from Dell's website. </sarcasm>

Re:Cars

[Mashiki]

I still can't see it. I do know how VIN's work(I was an apprentice back about 10yrs ago), while they're unique to the vehicle that doesn't mean much. They can still be cloned, manufactured, and stolen from other vehicles. So when you rattle off the VIN, it will report a valid engine/body/frame configuration and sometimes the equipment package.

Part of the reason the VIN is located on three different parts of a vehicle, sometimes up to 6. Not counting after-manufacturing etching.

Things are pretty generic these days, started in the mid 90's. For example on my Saturn, the spark plugs, EGR valve, and Ignition coil pack(among other things) are exactly the same across 3 different vehicles, 4 model years, and 2 engine types and 3 power trains(standard(4&5 speed) and automatic transaxles).

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

If I think there is the slightest chance that the company I bought a computer from would require proof of ownership to sell me accessories, there would be no purchase of the computer.

Re:Cars

[toddestan]

Actually, Macs are a bad example because the used market for them is simply insane. The value of a used, 7 year-old PC is pretty much $0, even for one that was high-end in its day and is in good working order. But you can still expect to pay hundreds for a used Mac that old, unless it's broken.

Re:Cars

[DigitalWallaby]

I pointed it out because it shows one example in law where removing identification numbers that might hide a crime is a criminal activity in and of itself. Other such examples can be found in FAA regulations, medical devices, pharmaceuticals, and construction.

You forgot mattresses.

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

the customer service for the average customer literally sucked

That word doesn't mean what you think it means. Or if it does, can we skip the phones and just get contracts to be serviced that way?

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

If you invested the extra $125 in the share market two years ago, you would also have benefited from capital growth and dividends.

You sure about that?

Dow Jones 2 years ago: 13000-14000
Dow Jones today: 8000-9000

The dividends won't offset that sort of fall.

Re:Cars

[Vlado]

Your example is not quite appropriate.

The car dealer will do what you describe when and if he gets a "stolen" notification on his computer.

Alienware (Dell) is here:
A) assuming from the start that computer is stolen
B) refusing to do anything at all since the guy is not an original buyer

Alienware has no business asking me about my goods without some good cause. Even with a good cause it's probably not up to them to actually do anything about it but notify the police. They are not an investigative body.

Re:Cars

[KillerBob]

You are an idiot, and the people who modded you up are bigger idiots. If you would take the time to read the fine summary you would see the words they have no concept of 'ownership transfer' and instead assume that if you're not in their system, you must be a thief.

Do your research.

https://support.dell.com/support/topics/topic.aspx/ca/shared/support/dellcare/en/tag_transfer?c=ca&cs=&l=en&s=gen

https://support.dell.com/support/topics/global.aspx/support/change_order/tag_transfer?~ck=ln&c=us&cs=&l=en&lnki=1&s=gen

And while I know there's a link on the Alienware site for the same, I don't have it in my bookmarks, because I don't need it to do my job. You could, however, e-mail support@alienware.com and ask them to give you the link if you felt like looking it up and couldn't find it with the search function on their website.

I *did* read the summary. and I *did* read the article. I'm just saying that the person who posted it is a twat who's talking out of his arse.

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

They do if the work is being done under warranty. It's called a non transferrable service agreement. Most valuable things work like this, for the reasons you've suggested.

Now, the piece-part...if it's anything like dell call and get the part number, then hang up and call back and order it without giving them the computer info. Solved.

Re:Cars

[matt20102]

This actually happened to my brother: One night, his car (parked on the street in a decent subdivision) was broken into. The hoods did little more than steal the faceplate to his radio (not a terribly expensive one, and yes I know he could have removed the faceplate when he left his car, but we all know this...) The conclusion? After several futile attempts to purchase the faceplate, he was forced to pitch a perfectly good radio because an idiot had stolen the faceplate.

Re:Cars

[3chuck3]

Yes Actually, the BETTER car parts stores do ask for the your Car's VIN number when you ask for replacement parts. It saves a lot of hassles over wrong car parts if your car's model has many different body styles, engine, and feature packages in the model line, like Chevy Cavilers.

Back to laptops, for example, first hand experience. IBM/Lenovo Thinkpads had a lot of variation of parts over model types, need the FRU number to order the right parts for the specific model subtype of the ThinkPad.

Re:Cars

[AkiraRoberts]

I think the point is, while you can describe those people as customers, in the technical sense, in the sense of a customer being 'someone you make money from,' they fail to meet Dell's definition. While it might seem counter-intuitive, because of Dell's system of supply chain management, what would seem to us to be a nice $149 profit (give or take some overhead), ends up disrupting the inventory, screwing with the supply chain, and costing the company quite a lot. And, since the person in question isn't actually a customer, there isn't even any sense that the monetary hit is worth it in terms of providing some sort of good customer service experience.

Now, whether or not that translates into a good, long term strategy, is an open question. Judging from the current discussion, it's annoying some number of people, and costing the company potential future customers/revenue. The flaw in this thinking is that it's focused on a) minimizing cost, through some sort of LEAN manufacturing process and as a consequence b) providing a service only to existing customers. That ignores the fact that there are potential customers out there, who might become actual customers if they had a good experience with the company.

Re:Cars

[Kalriath]

You know, I bet you're one of the people that objects to mandatory registration and notification of transfer of Microsoft software too.

Funny how one company can get away with something stupid, but another company does it, and it gets (rightly so) called a travesty.

Re:Cars

[QuietObserver]

An excellent response, with just one minor drawback; it's MacGyver.

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

Actual demand is proportional to the number of machines in service, which is hard enough to estimate by itself. If you start trying to also estimate how many have been resold (which you have almost no information about), you're just making it more likely you will predict demand incorrectly, as well as pissing off sales leads who already have hands on experience with your products.

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

i was going to post the very same thing, but read through to see if anyone beat me to it. i like alienware and dont like dell, but when it comes to policies like this, especially when it comes to laptops, i have to totally agree with dell. i have bought 3 computers from alienware, and sold one of my laptops which, with the proper information, they gladly helped with the transfer process and it took almost no time at all to put it into his name. but honestly, any good company will do this, not only for protection for themselves, but protection for the consumer. even cell phone companies do it. in the time it took you to write this complaint you could have probably already gotten everything legit.

Re:Cars

[featurelesscube]

An X31 is a remarkably primitive laptop by today's standards.

on which everything WORKS. And will keep working. That is value for me

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

That doesn't make any sense. When I needed a new power supply for my old T21 Thinkpad, I just called IBM and ordered one. They didn't ask why I wanted it, or ask me to prove I hadn't stolen my laptop. Why would they? It's a spare part. They have no reason to care what I do with it.

The same seems to apply to this case, from what I can tell. The guy wanted a spare part. He called Alienware to order it. Why did they even ask what he wanted it for? If he were going to use it as a paper weight, or as a weird kind of sex toy, what difference does that make to them? It's a spare part.

If you go in to say, Apple, and ask to have your machine repaired, don't they just look up the serial and check it in? I mean, how does a runner, who's not authorized to get the machine serviced since he's not the owner, get something done to his boss' computer because his boss is too busy (read: lazy) to come in and deal with it?

It seems very far fetched to say that someone stole a computer when there's little proof of it. Besides, pointing the finger at the consumer doesn't do a company any good except shoot themselves in the foot. Especially when the customer bought the product on good faith that the company would support it even if it wasn't a direct purchase. More marketshare is more marketshare. Plain and simple.

Re:Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

This response sounds like it is from an Alienware CS employee...whatever.
The customer shouldn't have to do legwork...this is a stupid policy and has gotten in the way of a positive experience....I can tell you that I'll never buy another Alienware PC if this is indeed the policy.

Alienware

[sakdoctor]

The monster cable of pre-built PCs

Re:Alienware

[Shadow of Eternity]

I was thinking they're closer to the sort of stuff you get on Head-fi than monster. Pink noise cable burn-in CDs and so on.

Re:Alienware

[Anonymous Coward]

More like the Extenz of pre-built PC's.

Re:Alienware

[MoFoQ]

I'd say it's even worse.

It's rare that you have to get technical support with monster cable cables...but with alienware PCs, especially notebooks...I had to deal with so many lemons from them for work...it ain't funny.

Re:Alienware

[BikeHelmet]

Not exactly. You can get monster cables cheap (OEM) from warehouses and some eTailers.

Alienware is never cheap. Or at least, never cheap enough that it comes close to building your own PC.

Re:Alienware

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep. If I hadn't got a good price on this second-hand Alien, I wouldn't have ever bought it.

Sure, it's a functional enough computer, but it's not and never was worth the $1300 my friend spent on it.

Re:Alienware

[Ceseuron]

The monster cable of pre-built PCs

Couldn't agree more with this assessment. Alienware is hideously overpriced and their systems aren't really that good. I have an Alienware D900T that a friend of mine owns sitting in my closet. The video card stopped working and it's going to cost $500 for the replacement for a wimpy GeForce 6800. He doesn't want to spend the money so I've disassembled it for the good parts and junked the rest. In disassembling the machine, it's obvious that Alienware doesn't back up their bloated prices with anything resembling quality, too.

Nobody in their right mind should be buying Alienware. There's nothing about their machines that you can't get from regular branded PCs and custom built PCs, except for a huge price hike on the Alienware.

Re:Alienware

[Anonymous Coward]

Monster sells magical power bars ($200 at Futureshop last I checked) that "clean" the power coming in. I think they're at that level already...

Re:Alienware

[windsurfer619]

I thought that was Apple.

Goodbye karma!

Re:Alienware

[KDR_11k]

The video card stopped working and it's going to cost $500 for the replacement for a wimpy GeForce 6800.

Uh, what? Does the thing explode if the replacement is not installed by an Alienware employee? Couldn't you just have plonked a new card in there and called it a day?

Re:Alienware

[X0563511]

What's in this magical power bar?

Put a few capacitors and inductors on that and it does magically 'clean' the power. It does this by giving 60hz a bandpass filter, so extra frequencies don't pass through.

Note that the price is not my point.

Re:Alienware

[Anonymous Coward]

Parent post should be setting off warning bells. Good call.

GP is either dumb as shit, or a liar (and dumb as shit).

Re:Alienware

[Nitewing98]

To the mods - this isn't flamebait. It's just a joke. The previous post is more vicious than this post.

Re:Alienware

[soupforare]

Laptop video cards are ridiculous expensive. I doubt it's $500 anymore, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was over $150.

Re:Alienware

[compro01]

The D900T is a laptop and alienware uses a special propitiatory semi-interchangeable (subject to power/cooling/size limitations) module system for the videocards in those. I highly doubt you're going to get a replacement part anywhere except alienware.

Re:Alienware

[Joe The Dragon]

you can find laptop parts on e-bay.

Re:Alienware

[Doctor_Jest]

Hell no! I thought it was hilarious! :) (and I own 3 Macs!) *applause*

Re:Alienware

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the Apple of the PC world.

Re:Alienware

[TeknoDragon]

Did you realize that the Alienware 7700 (Clevo D900T) is an MXM slot video card?

Did you try buying ANY other MXM slot video to make it functional before you butchered it?

I bought my Sager brand Clevo D901C precisely for the MXM video. You went to Alienware (DELL) for an overpriced part which isn't produced anymore when you could have gone to a place like mxm-upgrade.com for a low-end card or any of the dozens of Clevo/Sager resellers and got a modern part.

Re:Alienware

[Jesus_666]

No, Apples are like universal power adapters - they come with ports normal users aren't likely to use, they have fewer ports than a power strip of comparable price and people who don't travel the world fail to understand why anyone would pay extra money for an adapter when all their power strips work perfectly well with domestic outlets and devices. At the same time, universal power adapter owners insist that regular power strips are inadequate and ugly.

Re:Alienware

[Anonymous Coward]

D900T parts can be sourced all over the internet. It was also branded as Sager and some other notebooks as well.

Re:Alienware

[Anonymous Coward]

you can find laptop parts on e-bay.

Hmm. Just like stolen cars. Strip the parts and sell them.

Re:Alienware

[Ceseuron]

Did you realize that you are completely wrong about this? The D900T is not MXM.

So the answer is no, I did not try purchasing an incompatible MXM video card to put in a laptop that it wouldn't fit in. I also said I didn't buy the laptop, nor would I ever buy Alienware. Please read the post and know your hardware before responding.

No I wasn't aware of this unethical practice

[mysidia]

Sounds as if they're trying to force you to buy from them and never buy used equipment.

All manufacturers want you to buy from them, but usually they won't stoop so low as to try and force you to prove you bought from them to BUY parts and Equipment for your secondhand legitimately-acquired gear.

I'll keep in mind to avoid Alienware gear like the plague, from now on, whether used or new, and recommend everyone else do exactly the same.

Re:No I wasn't aware of this unethical practice

[erroneus]

This the correct answer and any consumerist bloggers should pick up this story and INVESTIGATE properly to report their findings. (I do not advocate merely copying stories as it is both immoral and pretty dangerous if it turns out you are reporting incorrect information as is increasingly the case where people use Wikipedia as an authoritative source for information, for example.) Each and every one of these cases need to be brought to light so that either the company capitulates under the burden of public knowledge or the knowledge of the public makes them better consumers and can better avoid such vendors and their practices.

Re:No I wasn't aware of this unethical practice

[irving47]

I was. I had to fix one of their overheating, POS DVR/WMC's for a customer and it turned out it was under someone else's name from the beginning of the ordering process. It was very lengthy, and very difficult to figure out the original purchaser and their information. Until we had it, they would NOT honor warranty (even though they were perfectly capable of checking the serial number) or even quote prices for parts or labor.
Never again.

Re:No I wasn't aware of this unethical practice

[mdwh2]

as is increasingly the case where people use Wikipedia as an authoritative source for information, for example.

Yeah that's right, an article with references couldn't possibly be trusted if it's on Wikipedia, but we'll trust everything from the media, blogs, and random commenters on a forum without question...

Re:No I wasn't aware of this unethical practice

[jd2112]

All manufacturers want you to buy from them, but usually they won't stoop so low as to try and force you to prove you bought from them to BUY parts and Equipment for your secondhand legitimately-acquired gear.

Actually this is (to a certain extent) standard practice for enterprise grade hardware/software. It's next to impossible to get a service contract (without which they won't even quote a price on software upgrades, etc.) for second hand hardware.

Re:No I wasn't aware of this unethical practice

[HeronBlademaster]

I seem to remember a recent article in which it was shown that major news sources had been caught using an unsourced, fake quote from a Wikipedia article. So no, it's not unreasonable to use Wikipedia as an example of a sometimes unreliable internet source.

Re:No I wasn't aware of this unethical practice

[berashith]

It isnt impossible, it is actually fairly easy. The problem is that the re-certification process costs nearly as much as buying original product.

Re:No I wasn't aware of this unethical practice

[JWSmythe]

I bought a refurb alienware laptop several years ago from a 3rd party. It worked ok, but one of the keys would stick. They wouldn't sell me a new keyboard, because I wasn't a direct customer, even though it had the Alienware markings all over it. I found who the real manufacturer was of the chassis, and they said I have to talk to the retail outlet (Alienware). I tried to go through the 3rd party, who sold a lot of refurb Alienware stuff, and they couldn't get a new keyboard.

    Alienware said I could use a USB keyboard instead. Ummm, this was a laptop, that I carried for work. I didn't want to carry a keyboard too, just so I could use my laptop.

    I also tried to get the second drive carrier, which turned out to be almost the same as the story said. It would have taken an act of god, and a virgin sacrifice to even hope to get one.

    In the end, I suffered with the bad keyboard for quite a while. Finally on one work trip, it overheated and died. The hotel's A/C was broken, and I had to work in the middle of the night (with it 90+ degrees in the room).

    I weighed my options. I had this really neat looking laptop that I couldn't do anything with, or try to beg Alienware to fix it (good luck there). I was out of country, and the exchange rate was great then, so I bought a new PC and LCD monitor, and worked from the hotel for a month like that. I went home for a week before the next 1 month job at the same site, and bought a HP laptop. Actually a HP Pavilion zv6000. That was about 3 years or so ago. I'm still using the HP, and I've put it through more abuse than the Alienware ever saw. So far it's been to 3 countries, and more US cities than I can even begin to count. I even did a live stream with a Verizon air card, 2 USB cameras, and a GPS receiver, for the length of I-10 (California to Florida) in the middle of summer. Come on, hot car, long drive, laptop sliding in the passenger seat. It never hit the floor, which was good. I left it running on my porch in Florida for 6 months straight, so I had a terminal to read my mail on, and it never failed, regardless of humidity, heat, or anything. My only complaint since then? The HP draws a lot of power, and I popped the fuse in my power inverter.

    I've bought a few replacement parts for the HP, more out of want than need. I need part of the case now, because my laptop bag fell off a luggage cart, and cracked some plastic. That was easily found on eBay for about $30.

    For those making car analogies and saying "the ownership should have been transferred, blah, blah", I work on other people's cars as a hobby. I've bought all kinds of parts, and never have I been asked to prove that the car was "mine", or that I was an authorized repair person. I walk into the store or even dealership and say "I need part .... for a ....", and they had it to me. The ONLY part that's ever required any sort of proof was a factory reproduced key for a lost key, so the owner has to go with registration in hand to get it. That hasn't stopped me from buying replacement ignition and door locks with new keys. I could steal your car, buy new locks, and it would be mine (without legit plates, obviously). I've even had my car towed, without any proof that it was mine. My word of "It won't start, tow it to here please" and a cash payment has always been enough. Maybe that's because I'm a fine upstanding appearing citizen, but those who know me know better. :) No, I wouldn't steal a car, but still.. A $40,000+ car is worth a hell of a lot more than anything Alienware has to offer.

Re:No I wasn't aware of this unethical practice

[stonewallred]

Well then, that is why they invented pirate bay, they have excellent customer service and charge nothing for the privilege of sering your needs.

Re:No I wasn't aware of this unethical practice

[penguinchris]

Funnily enough, I know a girl whose Macbook keyboard broke, and she carries around with her one of those expensive, metal Mac keyboards to use with it... and she's been doing that for well over a year as far as I know. She doesn't just leave it at home, in which case it wouldn't be a big deal, she actually takes it around with her all the time. Bizarre...

Re:No I wasn't aware of this unethical practice

[mysidia]

Alienware is great and all, but it's not enterprise grade hardware, it's a consumer product.

You don't buy support or maintenance contracts; replacement parts aren't a "warranty" or support matter, they're an I-want-to-buy-this a-la-carte matter.

Even most enterprise hardware manufacturers will sell you replacement parts without proving you bought a unit from them, you don't generally need a support contract.

In most cases, the software upgrades are provided to everyone, contract or no. Dell, HP, etc, all post the firmware upgrades related to their server hardware online for the world to download....

Manufacturers of server NICs, RAID controllers, CDROMs, etc, for server gear, also generally make their firmware updates available without contract... they just stop _creating_ new versions once the hardware is EOL..

Re:No I wasn't aware of this unethical practice

[quacking duck]

If her Macbook's out of warranty, the metal keyboard probably costs less than having the built-in keyboard serviced.

And those metal keyboards are so thin and compact you actually can easily carry it with your laptop all the time (assuming it's the one with no keypad).

Re:No I wasn't aware of this unethical practice

[JWSmythe]

    For me, any of the keyboards I had simply didn't fit in my laptop bag. I also carry a lot of gear, so I'd have to sacrifice something essential for work, to keep an extra keyboard in there.

    That, and it was hard enough to use my laptop in some places, like airplanes, with just the laptop. The keyboard would just be too much stuff in the way. I was happier when it died, so I had an excuse to get a better laptop that I could actually get parts for. :)

   

Re:No I wasn't aware of this unethical practice

[Anonymous Coward]

To continue this thought, it's not Wikipedia use that's the problem so much as it's sloppy Wikipedia use; if people accept everything that's in an article uncritically, expecting someone else to flag it for them, there's a problem. If they actually bothered to look to see if the Wikipedia article had references, and then checked those references and evaluated their reliability as sources, then they'd probably end up with reasonably reliable information.

However, there's a general expectation that if journalists/bloggers/students etc. are using Wikipedia as their primary source, it's because they're too lazy to look into other sources and references. Or, to put it another way, if someone researches using Wikipedia correctly, no one is likely to take much notice; but if they use it incorrectly, then it's a big deal, and we end up with people decrying the unreliability of Wikipedia as a primary source.

It's really not like the rest of the Internet doesn't have the same general problem...

Re:No I wasn't aware of this unethical practice

[Anonymous Coward]

...as is increasingly the case where people use Wikipedia as an authoritative source for information, for example... [Citation needed]

no honor among thieves

[slashdime]

With Alienware's prices, I often wonder who is the thief.

Re:no honor among thieves

[CSMatt]

Indeed. I have to wonder why those who want such power don't just build their own machines.

Re:no honor among thieves

[Darkness404]

Because laptops are almost impossible to really build yourself. Sure, you can upgrade RAM, HDs, and even PCI cards, but for everything else you are stuck at pre-bought systems, unless you are a really gifted hardware hacker.

Re:no honor among thieves

[skine]

Barebones notebooks (also called Whitebooks) are relatively easy to find online; most from OCZ and MSI. "Building" these systems is no more complicated than upgrading components of a regular notebook, or installing the operating system. Actually, it's a little easier considering you don't have to remove anything.

The main problem is that the prices can be pretty high. Most include the graphics, but processors, memory, storage, and OS are all left to the user.

Interestingly, the OCZ options available at Newegg range from a 10.1" netbook to a 17" notebook with a Blu-Ray combo drive.

Re:no honor among thieves

[CSMatt]

http://laptoping.com/category/barebone-laptops/

The market is not as diverse as that of desktops, and you are limited by more factors, but can most certainly build your own laptop.

Re:no honor among thieves

[adolf]

*shrug*

I've been building PCs for decades.

Meanwhile, my wife and I each have an Alienware desktop PC.

Why? Well, first, we each needed a new computer. The motherboard was dead on her venerable Dell desktop, and Dell's case was sufficiently strange to preclude replacing that component by itself. Later, I wanted a box to play games on, without disturbing my Linux desktop machine.

Second: The price was right. Before we bought these computers, I did the usual sanity check against Newegg. After buying putting a whole PC worth of good components of similar specification into my cart, the price difference was about $100.

Yeah - $100.

For that hundred bucks, one gets a very fancy ATX case which is easy to work on. Working audio ports on the front which interface properly with the sound card (instead of stupid rear-panel pass-through crap), such that the sound card can detect when headphones are plugged in and reconfigure itself automatically. An in-home service agreement. A PC which doesn't need assembled, but just unpacked and plugged in.

And unlike most prebuilt machines, when they're first turned on, they just boot Windows. I don't have to spend a couple of hours removing extraneous crap software. It comes up and behaves about the same way a new PC would if I'd have taken the time to build it myself and install Windows with a base load of drivers, except I didn't have to do it myself.

Meanwhile, they use about the same parts I'd have chosen myself if I were building a new PC. Good DVD-R, XFX video, fancy-pants motherboard with lots of expansion. The power supply is nameless, but is every bit as heavy as a good power supply ought to be. It included the same Logitech mouse I'd have bought myself. So on, so forth.

And it's pretty.

I don't think Alienware's pricing is out-of-line at all.

YMMV.

Re:no honor among thieves

[CSMatt]

Working audio ports on the front which interface properly with the sound card (instead of stupid rear-panel pass-through crap), such that the sound card can detect when headphones are plugged in and reconfigure itself automatically.

What kind of horrible case has this?

Re:no honor among thieves

[Anonymous Coward]

Good luck with that 'in-home service agreement'. They wont send out a tech. Ever. It doesnt matter what fails, it wont be something that the tech can fix on-site. They told me that for a dead HDD. Can't be replaced at your home, you HAVE to send it to us. Not only that, when you send your machine in, be prepared to wait 3 months for it to come back.

Re:no honor among thieves

[egr]

the main thing I want to choose when building my laptop is the screen (by that I mean screen resolution) and graphic chipset. Unfortunately Dell&Alienware is my best bet, unless someone knows about someone else

Re:no honor among thieves

[mellon]

The OCZ "barebones" laptop is nice because they sell it to you without a hard drive or RAM, so you don't have to throw out the ones that come with it, but it's hardly bare bones in the sense that we normally think of when we hear the term - you can't get different motherboards, or different displays, or anything like that.

Re:no honor among thieves

[catmistake]

they just boot Windows

Are you sure? I've never seen one that wasn't running Slackware. I'm pretty sure they just boot Slackware.

Re:no honor among thieves

[Nick Ives]

If you are forced to install that trash as a secondary OS, that you got via torrent,

I'll do that, I think the person holding the gun to my head would agree too - going out to a shop to buy Windows whilst being threatened with a firearm tends to draw attention!

Oh but whats this...?

because your new game does not work without it

I think you have a confused idea of what "forced" means. If you need Windows to run your games, pay for it. TBH I'd love to be able to buy a set of DX libraries from MS that worked under Linux - I'd pay them money every few years for the privilege too!

The bosses at Redmond would never do that for fear of Windows becoming a "legacy" OS and app developers using native Linux APIs, they shouldn't think that tho. The main reason games don't come out on Linux is because the APIs are terrible for games: DX10 is better than OGL3, the input APIs are terrible compared to Windows, etc.

In any case, paying for Windows so you can play games is like paying for a console. MS owns it so you should respect their copyright. If you don't respect Microsoft's copyrights then you're a hypocrite if you complain about GPL violators. That's why RMS says we should avoid all proprietary software at all times.

That's a principle I basically agree with but, well, I like playing video games on my PC...

Oh, and:

drug dealers, etc. Same thing, different business.

Drug dealers are working class heroes. They risk their liberty to give us the drugs we want, they should all get medals but I suppose they'll just have to settle for big fat margins on their deals.

Re:no honor among thieves

[Anonymous Coward]

Random lurker passing through here. Are you always this fucking obtuse, or do you consciously exert the effort required to make such shamefully retarded posts? Seriously. It's shitheads like you that give slashdot the rep of being run by a bunch of frothing-at-the-mouth, cheetos-stained, basement-dwelling computer fascists.

Re:no honor among thieves

[machine321]

when they're first turned on, they just boot Windows.

So, you're saying they shipped it to you broken?

Re:no honor among thieves

[Tycho]

I owned a Pentium D Sony Vaio system that came with a defective motherboard and went two more rounds of bad motherboards. Each time a tech came out to do an on-site and replaced the motherboard, eventually the fourth motherboard was good and has stayed good. However, I did not think that this was an exceptionally a good thing for Sony.

Re:no honor among thieves

[Anonymous Coward]

I think he means the front panel bridge connectors that most cases have, and most motherboards don't differentiate between front and rear (onboard) sound outputs - it all connects to the same pins, bridged by jumpers if there's no front panel sound. Most real OEMs have separate connectors for each and autoswitching circuitry on custom motherboards.

Have a squiz - http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/93

Re:no honor among thieves

[Gooba42]

Roughly 2004ish I bought what was on paper a very nice Alienware desktop.

While I waited, my machine bounced around their eleventy bajillion phases of testing and building and installing, etc. seemingly at random for about 2 months. When the machine arrived, it still hadn't hit "shipped" status on their site.

When it arrived, I opened the box and plugged everything in and SLI didn't work... I investigated and found that the SLI bridge wasn't seated properly. I fixed that and everything was okay for a couple days.

Then I discovered that I was getting corruption on the hard drive and things weren't working *quite* right on the RAID. After poking around I found it'd been configured slightly wrong. Being a power user I wasn't really worried, I'd paid for them to image my hard drive and a restore after configuring it right couldn't be *that* hard...

Then I discovered that my restore disc was completely blank. The only way Alienware was willing to help me was if I shipped it at my expense to their service center to be reimaged. (Reimage WHAT exactly? The RAID was hosed, there wasn't anything to reimage!) Relatively minor setback but I can install Windows, I just didn't want to...

So I installed Windows and discovered my driver disc was completely blank as well. I used my wife's machine and managed to get online to download drivers from their website. After rebooting an ungodly number of times, downloading for seemingly forever and putting together my own backups, the machine finally worked properly.

The parts would have been far cheaper at NewEgg but I was flush with cash from my mother's life insurance and wanted to have a flawless machine I didn't have to build and troubleshoot myself. The same machine was twice as expensive from Falcon Northwest and parts availability was an issue so I went to Alienware. This didn't work out. In the end, Alienware offered me the amazingly unhelpful option of shipping it back at my own expense and being refunded most of my money, the 30% restocking fee still applies when they manage to fuck up the machine before shipping it untested.

Fast forward 2 years and my Windows restore/install disk doesn't work for reasons which are vague and stupid. I installed Linux and various WINE implementations and it does what I want it to do, runs faster and more solidly than it did out of the box.

Re:no honor among thieves

[stonewallred]

mafia, gun runners and drug dealers have the stuff I want. who else would i buy it from. Windows I buy from the intertubes via a scurvy den of pirates.

Re:no honor among thieves

[Mad Merlin]

And unlike most prebuilt machines, when they're first turned on, they just boot Windows.

Ew.

At least that's easy to fix.

Re:no honor among thieves

[Anonymous Coward]

and if weight was a good enough metric for quality hardware I'd be playing Crysis on my ENIAC.

Re:no honor among thieves

[Anonymous Coward]

Sager , OCZ make build your own laptop kits

Re:no honor among thieves

[adolf]

Part of the Alienware fancy-pants RGB LED lighting is a strange little circuit board at the bottom of the case, with some dip switches to select color a large array of SMD resistors.

It had an issue wherein only certain LEDs could do certain colors, and the behavior would change a bit upon applying a slight technical tap to the card.

So I called them. They sent a tech out to replace it. Works fine, now. (I could've replaced it myself, but I wanted to see exactly how well their services worked.)

Perhaps the support person you spoke to was an idiot.

Re:no honor among thieves

[adolf]

For power supplies, weight is a fine metric. All of those copper windings and capacitors and heatsinks are heavy, and so is the chassis needed to properly support them.

Worser power supplies use fewer parts, and weigh less.

Re:no honor among thieves

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to be nit-picky, but I'm going to have to disagree. I just configured an i7 system on alienware how I would like it, and then did the same exact system, with a nicer case and twice the ram on Newegg. After tax and shipping on both systems, the homemade one was a full $950 cheaper. And these were all retail, name brand parts. You don't even get a choice on ram, hdd, powersupply brands.

So maybe this was true when you bought yours, but with the crazy low hardware prices these days, this certainly doesn't hold true anymore.

I just can't justify paying Alienware $1000 for a basic warranty (yes, that was the basic warranty, no in home or anything) when I can build an identical system with the brands I want for so much cheaper.

Just my 2 cents.

Alienware just has horrible CS overall

[firegate]

One of our offices needed a couple of PC's and I ordered two through Alienware - everything went through fine and they were set to arrive two weeks later.

Three weeks after I placed the order, Alienware informed me that they hadn't built or shipped the computers because I had asked that they be shipped to an address other than the CC billing address.

I'll never do business with that company again.

Re:Alienware just has horrible CS overall

[darkmeridian]

Alienware feels like they're trying to do business in a new age of credit card fraud but can't quite figure it out yet. Almost all vendors require your shipping address to be on your credit card as a billing address, but they can tell you about it almost instantly. Customer service tells you that you can add a secondary address on your credit card really easily. Not Alienware. Many vendors require you to have a proof of ownership for certain service. Dell lets you change the ownership online. Not Alienware.

Alienware needs to invest some of its hard-tricked money into providing decent customer service.

Re:Alienware just has horrible CS overall

[firegate]

For whatever its worth, it's never been an issue with Apple, CDW or Lenovo, all of which we do far more business with.

And either way, I'm not as concerned with their policy as I am with the fact that they took three weeks to notify us.

Re:Alienware just has horrible CS overall

[eyecorporations]

Is that why EVERY companies order form has a "billing address" and a "shipping address" and I regularly ship things to not my billing address? I'll have to inform them next time before I order that they're not allowed to ship anything to me.

Re:Alienware just has horrible CS overall

[Hurricane78]

My god am I happy that we do not have this credit card crap in Germany. Here you can also pay with a debit entry, or at arrival (for a small fee of 2.5€), can deliver to wherever you want (if you pay the transport price of course), and when you got it, and it is not what you wanted, you can
- in case you payed on arrival: Inspect it before signing and paying. And refuse to accept it, in case it's not what you wanted.
- in case of a debit entry: Send it back in the first 14 days (but you have to pay the transport back), without having to state any reason, and undo the debit entry.

Which also means, fraud is much harder if you know to use those payment methods.
Stuff like getting in trouble because you want it delivered where you work, because you can't be at home in work hours, is a total non-problem here.

I wonder how one could make this better in the USA too. I guess other than opening a new bank, offering new methods and technologies, and paying huge sums for being protected from other banks and the government crushing you because you do so, it's pretty much impossible. :(
But hey, one can always move to another country. :)

Switzerland and Estonia sounded good in their Wikipedia entries. And Switzerland is a very very beautiful country too. (Was there for 2x2 weeks [winter and summer].)

Re:Alienware just has horrible CS overall

[EvanED]

No company is allowed to mail to an address other than the Billing address on a credit card

First: I and the other people who have replied to you have bone it before, so even if it's prohibited by the CC agreement or whatever, it's pretty regularly violated

Second: You definitely can add additional, alternate shipping addresses to your card

Third: There's no excuse (other than "we're actively evil and are trying to screw you to save us a few bucks") for not giving that information instantly

With out a person to person sale there is no way to check I.D.

It's also the case that CC-merchant agreements prohibit vendors from checking your ID, so what good is having a physical person there going to do? (Barring violations of said agreement.)

Re:Alienware just has horrible CS overall

[Nick Ives]

It's not unusual for mail delivery firms to insist that the first order for a customer goes to the billing address, often the CC companies insist on policies like that for personal accounts. If you set it up as a company account though then they should have been more forgiving, the three week wait is unforgivable too.

I'm not surprised by TFA or your story tho, it matches up with everything else I've heard about Alienware: their service is terrible.

Re:Alienware just has horrible CS overall

[pongo000]

Almost all vendors require your shipping address to be on your credit card as a billing address

That's not been my experience. I routinely do business with online vendors that do *not* require matching shipping and billing addresses. In fact, I've found such vendors are rare, and I'd be somewhat suspicious of any vendor that refuses to do business with you because your billing and shipping addresses do not match. If I supply the correct billing address, and the merchant account holder verifies said billing address as a match (along with some other identifying criteria, maybe the CVV), there is no reason for me or any other vendor to refuse to ship to an alternative address.

I'll also add I accept AMEX, MC, Visa, and Discover at my own business, and there is nothing in my merchant account agreements that precludes me from shipping to an address different from the billing address for online orders. I'm covered from chargebacks due to fraudulent activity so long as I jump through the authentication hoops (address verification, CVV, etc.).

Re:Alienware just has horrible CS overall

[Anonymous Coward]

Utter bullshit. Any online transaction I make asks for both the billing address and the shipping address. If they needed to be the same, why would they bother? I've also had someone buy something my card and have it shipped somewhere else. The credit card company was happy to cancel the charge and did not even care that it had not been shipped to my billing address.

Re:Alienware just has horrible CS overall

[Anonymous Coward]

So because YOU fucked up the order it is Alienwares fault?

YOU waited for 3 weeks not checking on the order, YOU put the different address in. Last I checked ANY expensive item needs to delivered to the address on the CC.

Re:Alienware just has horrible CS overall

[MBraynard]

Then Dell/AW should have immediately notified him of that when he made the purchase or simply not allowed for a separate mailing address to be listed on the form.

Re:Alienware just has horrible CS overall

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm reminded of the debacle this week when I called a company on Monday to close an account. It was still visible online on Friday and I called again. Their response was that there was a note on the account to say a bogus attempt to close the account had been made. They had four days to contact me by email and phone and didn't try. I'd given the account number, address and other identifying info. Too many companies are assuming legit customers are crooks.

Re:Alienware just has horrible CS overall

[stonewallred]

All my billing addresses are a PO BOX(one too many mailbox replacement because of drunken teen agers with bats). That being said, I give them the billing address and have them ship it where I want it to go. Never had a problem.

Re:Alienware just has horrible CS overall

[stonewallred]

***It's not ANY companies choice. No company is allowed to mail to an address other than the Billing address on a credit card. No company can. With out a person to person sale there is no way to check I.D. I would think you would know this.*** That is Bullshit and false. PS:someone please point me to where i can learn how to do the fadedout quote thingee. Thanks

Re:Alienware just has horrible CS overall

[HeronBlademaster]

Second: You definitely can add additional, alternate shipping addresses to your card

Not always. I tried to add an alternate address to my Visa (which I got through my credit union) and they don't have the ability to do that. Granted, this is largely because it's through my credit union rather than through a "real" credit card company, but a lot of people do it this way - so it's not quite always possible.

Re:Alienware just has horrible CS overall

[Anonymous Coward]

Almost all vendors require your shipping address to be on your credit card as a billing address

BULL. The suspicious ones tell you to register the alternate address, which DOES NOT have to be a BILLING address, with the credit card company before ordering (takes about 5 minutes on the phone), and the normal ones don't mind at all. A very few pathologically dysfunctional vendors will not even trust the credit card company with the alternate address on file, and these should be reported to the attorney general's office.

I am very familiar with this whole deal because UPS and Fedex cannot deliver to my mailing address as there is no mail delivery on my street and I have to have a P. O. box, while the post office instantly returns any mail sent to my street address. Catch 22.

Re:Alienware just has horrible CS overall

[Blakey Rat]

Oh man you Germans! You're so much better than us Americans! There's nothing I love more than to log on to Slashdot and see tons of posts from Europeans telling us how shitty we are! Especially ignorant ones!

See, we have debit cards in the US. You can issue a chargeback to your debit card provider if you get delivered a defective product. There's also no particular requirement to ship the item back, although if you're not an ass you'd call up the retailer and ask about it.

There's no 15 day limit, but I think it depends on the bank. (It can be long if you can demonstrate identity theft; when I found my card was being used by some scammer, and started looking closely at my statements, I found fraudulent charges from 2 months before. My bank refunded those, no questions asked.)

We generally do not have Collect On Delivery (COD) anymore, although you can still find a few catalog shops that offer it. Why? I think it's generally because people in the US usually aren't home when packages are delivered. We have these things called "jobs." (And if you get the package delivered to your workplace, the receptionist there isn't authorized to pay for you, and the delivery guy would probably get pissed waiting around 15 minutes for you to get up to the reception desk.)

Stuff like getting in trouble because you want it delivered where you work, because you can't be at home in work hours, is a total non-problem here.

It's a total non-problem in the US. I get stuff delivered to my workplace all the time, and I've never had my workplace address added to my debit card "approved address" list. Contrary to what the parent was saying, most retails *don't* check the approved address list on your card, or at least not for smaller purchases. Dell/Alienware is unique on that one. I get orders from Amazon, Newegg, GoGamer, tons of places, shipped to work, never had a problem.

I wonder how one could make this better in the USA too. I guess other than opening a new bank, offering new methods and technologies, and paying huge sums for being protected from other banks and the government crushing you because you do so, it's pretty much impossible. :(
But hey, one can always move to another country. :)

Please come save us, Europeans! We're so weak and fragile on our own!

Re:Alienware just has horrible CS overall

[Hurricane78]

Sorry, but that is your prejudice. ^^

I do not equal and generalize a shitty feature with the whole country (and its people) being shitty. I inform myself.

But you seem to massively generalize and well... I dunno what to say, but... you do not make your people look very good. ^^

No matter what you think, and even while you act just as "We don't need anybody!"-style overly proud... just like the French (Yeah, I said it! ^^) ...we are still on your side. And with "you", I mean the people.

Oh, and actually, you are very weak and fragile. If someone stops lending you money, you're done. Finito. The eeend. ^^
So I recommend accepting this friendship. ;)

Re:Alienware just has horrible CS overall

[Blakey Rat]

But you seem to massively generalize and well... I dunno what to say, but... you do not make your people look very good. ^^

I massively generalize!? You generalized an entire nation's electronic payment system, thus judging the nation itself, based on a single Slashdot post-- one that was actually factually incorrect. And I'm the one who's "massively generalizing!"

It's also possible that my posting was made with my tongue firmly in-cheek.

Well, a lot of stuff on eBay is stolen...

[Bearhouse]

Did the vendor include the original invoice? That should work.

Can't understand their 'fix' of adding you as user of the original owner's account, though. Surely goes against the basic rules of CRM.

While we're on the subject of 'ownership transfer', note also that under most EULAs, you should also buy the software all over again...

Re:Well, a lot of stuff on eBay is stolen...

[Krneki]

EULA != law

Re:Well, a lot of stuff on eBay is stolen...

[CSMatt]

Assuming that all of the relevant discs were provided along with the hardware, that would conflict with the right of first sale, which can not be licensed away by any EULA, at least in the United States.

Re:Well, a lot of stuff on eBay is stolen...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes it does.

Re:Well, a lot of stuff on eBay is stolen...

[rolfwind]

The BSA doesn't go by discs or keys, but by invoices. Last I heard, if you don't have an official one, they consider it pirated. Now, I don't consider them good, just that they have more than enough money to make 99.999% of people settle on their terms (but this is something only business have to worry about...)

Re:Well, a lot of stuff on eBay is stolen...

[Anonymous Coward]

EULA:law::fiction:fact

Re:Well, a lot of stuff on eBay is stolen...

[nametaken]

It used to be the case that, at least with Windows, the license followed the machine on systems with OEM installs. Has that changed?

Re:Well, a lot of stuff on eBay is stolen...

[langelgjm]

which can not be licensed away [arstechnica.com] by any EULA, at least in the United States.

Non sequitur. If you read your linked article, you'll see this bit:

Citing the 1977 case of United States v. Wise, which involved the sale of used films obtained under dubious circumstances, Jones found that the Ninth Circuit's precedents suggested that the circumstances surrounding the sale of AutoCAD software constituted a sale, not merely a license. Therefore, the First Sale Doctrine applied, and Vernor was not bound by any of the terms in Autodesk's license agreement.
But the judge acknowledged that three more recent Ninth Circuit decisions involving software seemed to cut in the opposite direction without explicitly overturning Wise. Jones found that Wise was controlling precedent, and ruled in Vernor's favor. If the case gets appealed to the Ninth Circuit, the conflict among these precedents is likely to occupy the court's attention.

I don't know if that case was appealed, or what's happened to it. However, even if it was appealed and upheld, I believe that ruling would set precedent only for the 9th circuit, not the entire U.S. I don't remember off the top of my head, but I seem to recall there being a circuit split on this issue.

Re:Well, a lot of stuff on eBay is stolen...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, you stupid moron that is fucking stupid and is very stupid and I don't like because you are so goddamned stupid and just aren't very nice, let ME explain that the A in EULA doesn't stand for asshole, either.

Jerk.

Re:Well, a lot of stuff on eBay is stolen...

[Xest]

You're right, what you can't do is resell an OEM copy by itself.

It's for that reason that WGA ties your software to your hardware and never actually asks for your personal details.

Re:Well, a lot of stuff on eBay is stolen...

[Anonymous Coward]

In practice, business don't have to pay the BSA extortion, they just don't know any better. The correct answer when the BSA shows up for an audit is "NO." Turns out that except in a couple of countries in Europe (France and Belgium IIRC), the auditing clauses in most contracts are effectively unenforceable. Big companies know this and have teams of lawyers to handle the saying "NO." For small companies, they either don't know enough to say "NO," or they have so little software anyway, it doesn't matter to them.

Even if the BSA does sue, by the time they actually get all the paper work done and a court day scheduled, you can have done your own internal audit, dotted you i's and crossed your t's. Then you can just give in and let them in to audit. They won't find anything, so you can then make a big stink in the press about big companies like Microsoft and Apple harassing the little guy because they are afraid they can't compete.

Basically the BSA is a toothless Lion, so stand up to them.

The requisite IANAL, but I actually asked one about this once. It's part of why big companies don't care about the onerous terms in the MS licensing agreements. They know they can't be bullied and MS will have to back down on virtually all of them.

Re:Well, a lot of stuff on eBay is stolen...

[Miseph]

No, but it is a contract, and contracts are enforced by law. You don't have to like it, but it's true. I'll bet that if your employer suddenly decided to pay you less than stipulated in your contract, you'd go to the law for recourse, but your salary is no more or less law than a EULA.

Whether or not most EULAs actually can be enforced through law is a separate issue altogether, but if they are not it is because they are invalid contracts, not because they are not based in law.

Re:Well, a lot of stuff on eBay is stolen...

[mpe]

You're right, what you can't do is resell an OEM copy by itself.

Depends where you are. In Germany you can, since a court ruled that "retail"/"OEM" distinctions have no basis in law.

Re:Well, a lot of stuff on eBay is stolen...

[residieu]

The buyer never agreed to the EULA. So any restriction from transferring the software doesn't apply to him.

Re:Well, a lot of stuff on eBay is stolen...

[langelgjm]

No, but it is a contract, and contracts are enforced by law.

I'm fairly certain this is still not correct.

The "L" in EULA stands for "license", not contract. A license is different than a contract. What kind of written contracts do you know that don't require a signature or any kind of consideration?

Re:Well, a lot of stuff on eBay is stolen...

[mdwh2]

No, but it is a contract, and contracts are enforced by law.

Only if he really agrees with it. Which is dubious in EULs generally, but in the case of a sale, it's especially unlikely that the new buyer agreed to the original EULs.

(Replying to this post means you agree to pay me $1000, btw.)

Re:Well, a lot of stuff on eBay is stolen...

[Krneki]

Exactly any mistake and the contract can get repealed.

Consider how big companies are bulling users, I wouldn't be surprised if most of the EULA would get repealed if a proper court would analyze them.

Still not an easy task to archive.

Re:Well, a lot of stuff on eBay is stolen...

[shutdown -p now]

The "L" in EULA stands for "license", not contract. A license is different than a contract. What kind of written contracts do you know that don't require a signature or any kind of consideration?

Not all legal contracts are written, and not all of them (even written ones) require a signature.

Re:Well, a lot of stuff on eBay is stolen...

[langelgjm]

Not all legal contracts are written, and not all of them (even written ones) require a signature.

Yes, I am well aware of that. Have you ever seen an oral EULA? I didn't think so. Thus why I explicitly said "written contracts."

"Licenses", particularly the EULA kind ("here's a slip of paper we claim you must abide by if you use this software") are not contracts. They may be enforceable, but not because they're a contractual agreement.

Re:Well, a lot of stuff on eBay is stolen...

[jwilcox2009]

"Licenses", particularly the EULA kind ("here's a slip of paper we claim you must abide by if you use this software") are not contracts. They may be enforceable, but not because they're a contractual agreement.

The US Supreme Court disagrees with your claim that licenses are not contracts. See, for example, MedImmune, Inc v Genentech, Inc, 549 US 118, 124 (2007) ("We express no opinion on whether a nonrepudiating licensee is similarly relieved of its contractual obligation during a successful challenge to a patent's validity.").

Re:Well, a lot of stuff on eBay is stolen...

[langelgjm]

Your citation would make more sense if the case involved copyrights, which is what we are talking about, not patents. I will be very surprised if you can show me patents being licensed via shrink-wrap EULA.

I don't know much about patent licensing, but I suspect the terms are much more contract-like - i.e., there is likely signed paperwork between the parties. (Patents are also a hell of a lot more valuable). Shrink-wrap EULAs are essentially distributed like pamphlets in a war zone - thrown out without any regard to how the other party responds.

Re:Well, a lot of stuff on eBay is stolen...

[Petrini]

No, but it is a contract, and contracts are enforced by law.

I'm fairly certain this is still not correct.

The "L" in EULA stands for "license", not contract. A license is different than a contract.

Licenses are most certainly contracts. There are plenty of contracts that don't require signatures -- oral contracts spring immediately to mind. As for consideration, there is. If you don't agree to the contract, you return the software. You give them money, they give you software, subject to the conditions in the license.

At least, that's how courts have ruled to date.

--
I am a lawyer, but not your lawyer. Don't read the internet for legal advice.

Re:Well, a lot of stuff on eBay is stolen...

[Anonymous Coward]

So, if you order something online I don't have to pay, because no contract exists? Awesome.

Re:Well, a lot of stuff on eBay is stolen...

[Anonymous Coward]

The L may stand for "license" but it's still a contract. The consideration is that you get to make copies of the software into your computer's RAM, i.e. use the software. Some of those additional conditions in the EULA may not apply, at least in more reasonable jurisdictions, since you may not have been able to see them if you bought the software retail or bundled with a computer. Things might be slightly different if you buy software online.

Re:Well, a lot of stuff on eBay is stolen...

[langelgjm]

There are plenty of contracts that don't require signatures -- oral contracts spring immediately to mind.

Yes, I am well aware that there are non-wrtten contracts, which is why I specifically mentioned "written contracts" in my original post.

As for consideration, there is. If you don't agree to the contract, you return the software. You give them money, they give you software, subject to the conditions in the license. At least, that's how courts have ruled to date.

Care to cite that? I'm not being contrary, I would just really like to know the cases involved here. From what I've read, there seems to be a focus on the purchaser's actions - e.g., if they click an "I agree to the following terms as a condition of using this software," then an EULA is likely to be held as enforceable.

But what about all the EULAs that are just stuffed into boxes, or don't require affirmative action on the part of the purchaser? And as for your take on consideration, people download software every day that they don't pay for, but that involves an EULA. E.g., Firefox - I give them nothing, they give me software. Where is the consideration there?

So yes, while some licenses can be contracts, I fail to see how all licenses are therefore contracts. Moving beyond EULAs, how can general blanket copyright licenses, such as those found all over the Internet, be considered contracts?

Re:Well, a lot of stuff on eBay is stolen...

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you retarded? An EULA is not a contract. A contract is signed, consideration is given to both parties, the terms can be negotiated and the contract is drawn up and agreed to before the exchange of value. Pretty much the exact opposite of an EULA in every single way.

Re:Well, a lot of stuff on eBay is stolen...

[ffflala]

I believe that EULAs are considered part of the contract that was the original purchase, which itself was a contract (a legally enforceable promise to deliver goods in exchange for payment or promise of payment.) The consideration (aka bargained-for-exchange) present in the original purchase is sufficient.

If I got the question right on my contracts final, shrink-wrap & click-through EULAs are at this point generally held to be enforceable if they provide a reasonable time for rejection (by returning the merchandise.) This gives a consumer the option to agree by keeping it or reject the terms by returning it (see Hill v. Gateway 2000. http://www.lawnix.com/cases/hill-gateway.html.) So instead of signing to indicate their agreement, a customer indicates acceptance of the terms by performance (not returning it.)

Not all contracts must be written, not all written contracts must be signed, and not all written contracts even require consideration.

Re:Well, a lot of stuff on eBay is stolen...

[s4m7]

IANAL, but if they are enforceable (and I don't know that this has ever been tested in a court, so they may very well not be, certainly many provisions of many existing EULA's are not enforceable) then it would explicitly because they are a form of contract.

EULAs contain breach clauses, just like contracts. They specify the obligations of two parties, just like contracts do. They represent an agreement to abide by certain terms, just like a contract. I think that your distinction between the words "contract" and "agreement" is entirely academic insofar as the law is concerned.

Re:Well, a lot of stuff on eBay is stolen...

[Miseph]

A license (at least this kind) IS a contract. What makes you think they aren't?

Re:Well, a lot of stuff on eBay is stolen...

[jwilcox2009]

Sorry for continuing an old thread. My citation makes sense because it stands for the general proposition that licenses are contracts. Your arguments about how patent licenses differ from shrinkwrap EULAs are about whether a valid contract has been formed, not whether the proper mode of analysis is contract law or some other doctrine.

In any event, here is the "on-all-fours" citation you are looking for. ProCD Inc. v. Zeidenberg, 86 F.3d 1447, 1450 (7th Cir.1996) (upholding a copyright infringement claim based on a shrinkwrap license and stating "we treat the licenses as ordinary contracts accompanying the sale of products, and therefore as governed by the common law of contracts and the Uniform Commercial Code").

I bought one...

[Darkness404]

I bought a new Alienware system a few years back (right after Dell purchased them), and it was honestly one of the worst laptops I have ever purchased. The specs were decent for the time (1.5 Ghz Intel M CPU, 512 MB of RAM, good enough graphics, etc), it looked nice, and even the price was not much more than a comparable system from HP or another vendor. But thats where all the nice things ended. So first was the power cord managed to get frayed from about six months of medium usage, so I ordered another one, tech support was actually decent and they sent me one for only about $20 or so. About six months later the motherboard dies, thankfully it was under warranty and they repaired it no questions asked (save for the guy who couldn't speak English who kept on trying to convince me that it was really my power cord when it wasn't). About six months after that, the power cord became unusable again, due to fraying (I don't know what was with early 2000s laptop power cords, but neither my Alienware nor Gateway laptops' power cords ever lasted long) they informed me that even though my machine was under warranty, they discontinued support for my model so they sent me to a third party retailer. Upon buying the cord that they told me to, I plugged it in and it worked decently for about a month. Then the plastic tip started burning. About that time I decided to change laptops and laptop vendors.

More careful is good.

[cuby]

Do you have the original bill provided by the seller? Do you even asked for it to check if the item was not stolen? I think if companies were more careful, like this one, people would be more careful before buying 2nd hand stuff.

Re:More careful is good.

[mikael]

A simple check of the serial number should be able to determine whether it is stolen or not. Keeping a digital photograph of the serial number of every valuable item seems to be the best way of recording them.

Re:More careful is good.

[juiceboxfan]

A simple check of the serial number should be able to determine whether it is stolen or not.

It has been my (limited) experience that Dell does everything through the "warranty number". Every machine that they ship has one that can be used online to for check warranty status, shipping configuration, and upgrades. I was even surprised to find that a laptop I had bought, used, a year earlier was still under warranty (although never tested to see if they would honor it). From the fine blog;

They asked for a "warranty number" that doesn't actually appear on the machine anywhere...

Why would something like that have been removed?

Re:More careful is good.

[Midnight Thunder]

They asked for a "warranty number" that doesn't actually appear on the machine anywhere...

Why would something like that have been removed?

I would wonder that too, but maybe he should check in the battery compartment in case it is there? Also, is this visible in the BIOS? I couldn't see any site that describes how to find the warranty of an Alienware product? Does anyone know where it is located?

Re:More careful is good.

[alienw]

The guy SPECIFICALLY said the serial number and all identifying marks were removed by the previous seller. Coupled with the fact that it was purchased on ebay, I would be 99.9% sure it's stolen. Why else would the seller remove the serial number?

Re:More careful is good.

[mikael]

Very true. Another place to check would be the serial number stored in the BIOS, or on the various components (hard disk drive, CPU, LCD screen).

Couldn't you just...

[digitalderbs]

"persuade the eBay seller [you] did buy it from to add [you] as an authorized user of his Alienware account."

tagged !whine !boohoo and others as they come

[sethstorm]

For the price of an Alienware, you could end up with a Thinkpad W700ds. Order it without the tablet and you'll have a manufacturer that encourages such activity.

Besides, Dell isn't exactly well-known for originality or quality.

Sounds like standard procedure for Dell

[Anonymous Coward]

I've seen this happen many times with Dell, if you are not the original owner by their records they provide zero support. They sell computers not cars, not everyone is going to take 30 minutes to sit on hold to transfer ownership when they get rid of a virus infected windows box.

Re:Sounds like standard procedure for Dell

[Orbijx]

Except that if you are the original owner of a system that has Computrace on it (Think Lo-Jack for laptops) for example, and someone steals your machine, do you want some random Dell tech saying, "Well, you could buy a HDD enclosure to get your important data off that drive" to some mook who is smart enough to steal the computer, but not smart enough to boost the data off the drive themselves?

I'd hope not.

I'd dare say the following statement holds some truth:
Most of us here are the types of people who have two, three, ten, or more machines at our disposal, and a (semi-)permanent connection to the internet in some manner. Most of us ought to be able to key in a service tag, express service code, and the ownership data on our own to do a transfer.

And as for virus removal, it's a data change on the HDD for the technician (since for a couple of models at least, they can only offer a reinstall of the OS or transfer you to paid support that MIGHT wipe the virus), which is why they have to validate you against the records.

In my mind, legit people with legit purchases have no valid complaint about being asked to submit the form that puts it in their name so that Dell knows it's legit.

The parts aren't on eBay as well?

[assassinator42]

I had to buy some plastic components to repair a Dell laptop a while back, so I searched online and got a list of the part numbers I needed. I called someone working for Dell in India, and got the total price I'd need to pay to buy the stuff directly from them [after having the phone rep try to sell me RAM or something]. Turns out I saved a bit by buying everything online.

Warranty

[clarkkent09]

Thinking about buying Alienware (now owned by Dell)?

Nope. They are vastly overpriced for what they are and I'm not in a habit of paying extra for computers because of the way they look.

Four different Alienware teams have refused to even give me a price on this accessory, instead accusing me of stealing the machine since I didn't buy it directly from their eBay store.

If that is true then I agree it's crazy. I noticed that they were asking for a warranty number and I've never heard of a computer manufacturer refusing to SELL you a part unless you have a warranty number. However, is it at all possible that the support people were misunderstanding you and thinking that you wanted the part for free, under warranty? I know it's four different people and you explained it to them, but it is perfectly possible that all four are complete idiots and didn't even bother listening fully to your explanation of what you wanted.

Re:Warranty

[Anonymous Coward]

They are vastly overpriced for what they are and I'm not in a habit of paying extra for computers because of the way they look.

Like an Apple?

Re:Warranty

[Anonymous Coward]

Show me an Apple that is vastly overpriced for a computer with identical specs.

Re:Warranty

[amiga3D]

Nice thing about apple is...if you have money they'll kiss your ass. Most computer companies I deal with seem like they expect me to kiss their ass before they'll take my money.

Re:Warranty

[Anonymous Coward]

...I'm not in a habit of paying extra for [things] because of the way they look.

Jesus Christ dude, are you actually hoping to be sent to Gitmo, or what? Talk about anti-American!

Re:Warranty

[Achromatic1978]

Ahhh, the "identical specs" refrain. The last bastion of a fanboy, used as his out if the webcam is only 1.2mp versus 1.3mp, or there's 3 USB slots, not 4. Or "touchpad doesn't support multitouch", or other such crap, even if other specs on the comparison model are far superior. I've even heard this extending to "But yours doesn't come with OS X and iLife" when the going gets desperate.

For example. 13" Macbook. 4GB memory. 320GB, 5400rpm HDD. $1774. 13" XPS M1330, 4GB memory (but slower), 500GB 7200rpm HDD, $1174. But guess what, I can upgrade to 4GB of DDR3 memory for $69. I'm still $530 cheaper than the MacBook.

So, please, have at it. Nothing too esoteric there.

Re:Warranty

[Anonymous Coward]

Alienware has a system of issuing "Account/Member" ID Numbers. They ask for it right off the bat prior to anything else. If you don't have one, they make you jump through a LOT of hoops, much like credit card companies. Even legitimate owners are harangued over their identity.

Re:Warranty

[KDR_11k]

Apples aren't overpriced for their specs but their purpose. You can usually get a vastly cheaper computer by going with specs picked for your purpose since Apple has so few models that you don't have much choice with them. It's popular with Apple defenders to point at spec matching prices but if you did spec matching the other way, take a random PC and look for the cheapest Mac that meets or exceeds the PC's specs, you'd get a completely different result because the target specs won't fit neatly in one of Apple's product categories. An Apple computer bought for web browsing is overpriced because a web browsing PC needs almost zero specs, an Apple computer bought for gaming is overpriced because gaming spec graphics hardware is AFAIK only offered in workstation-level systems.

Re:Warranty

[pHus10n]

I own an iMac, a Macbook, Apple TV, and an iPhone. I love each and every one of them because I think they're useful, pretty, and reasonably priced for what I received. A Mac Pro is not reasonably priced. Not even remotely close.

Re:Warranty

[shentino]

I would not consider apple as overpriced, merely luxury.

Since "the package" includes kick-ass service from what I've heard.

Calling apple overpriced is like saying caviar costs too much.

Re:Warranty

[Anonymous Coward]

Dell
Price $999.99

+
HP W2408H 24-inch Widescreen LCD Monitor $350 Office Depot a few months ago $298 at Circuit City when they were going out of business
$350
$1349.99

Apple 24-inch : 2.66GHz
$1499

Chips both made by intel. Dell is a quad core, Apple a dual core
Same Ram
Same HD
Video card in Dell is better (by far).

I paid $150 less. That's the best Apple can do. Let's be honest it's not really close. To get closer you would need to upgrade to 24-inch : 2.93GHz for $1799.

But let's be honest. The apple chip still isn't as good, the video card isn't either, and you have just spent another $300.

I don't care what name is on the box. I want the best deal for my money. Most people do. That's why when they look at price and compare, Apple isn't close.

Go away fanboy.

Re:Warranty

[Anonymous Coward]

The 13" plastic Macbook with 4GB of RAM and a 320GB 5400RPM HDD is $1274, not $1774. The base model is $999, and as always (be it Apple or Dell) it's cheapest to get your upgrades on Newegg.

In order to get that $1774 price, you deliberately picked the most expensive options - 2.4GHz aluminum unibody Macbook with all the most expensive upgrades* purchased directly from the vendor. You also ignored features present on the Macbook and absent on the XPS - like the aluminum unibody enclosure or the larger internal battery - because they do not support your conclusion.
*Barring a SSD.

The most appropriate comparison - the one that would be made by a reasonable person and not an asshat such as yourself - would be the entry level white Macbook and the Dell XPS M1530. Both are priced at $999; the Macbook has a Core 2 Duo at 2 GHz and 2GB of DDR3, whereas the XPS has a Core 2 Duo at 2.2GHz and 4GB of DDR2. The Macbook would clearly be faster, as the twofold increase in memory bandwidth from using DDR3 far outweighs a 10% bump in CPU clock. The Macbook also has an nVidia 9400M, slightly superior to the Dell's 8400M or 8600M. Both machines have a 1280x800 display, although to the Dell's credit, it has a 15.3" display (as opposed to the Macbook's 13.3"), twice the RAM, and a 500GB HDD (vs. the Macbook's 160GB).

On both systems, upgrades are expensive (bordering on the retarded). Both manufacturers will gleefully charge you $300 or more just for a small CPU upgrade, and Dell will charge $615 for 8GB of RAM. (Apple won't even sell you more than 4GB, although I think the Macbook can hold up to 6GB.)

Of course, by far the most salient difference between these machines is that the Macbook comes with OS X and the Dell comes with Vista; you can install Vista on the Macbook but installing OS X on the Dell is difficult or impossible (depending on if you can find OS X drivers for your Dell hardware).

Also, experience tells me that Apple's build quality is extremely high compared to Dell's. Hardware failures are noticeably less common on Apple hardware, among other advantages.

Experience also tells me that talking to you is a waste of time (you can't reason a man out of a position he didn't reason himself into), but maybe someone else will care.

And you can call me an Apple fanboy if you like, but you'll still be an idiot.

Re:Warranty

[Achromatic1978]

In order to get that $1774 price, you deliberately picked the most expensive options - 2.4GHz aluminum unibody Macbook with all the most expensive upgrades* purchased directly from the vendor. You also ignored features present on the Macbook and absent on the XPS - like the aluminum unibody enclosure or the larger internal battery - because they do not support your conclusion.

Oh shit. I'm sorry. I didn't realize the original claim was actually "Show me an Apple that is vastly overpriced for a computer with identical specs, but don't pick the expensive options, regardless of whether they might actually be useful or not".

My bad.

True. The XPS actually doesn't have an aluminium unibody enclosure. You're right about the battery. Hey, look, the battery upgrade option to an equivalent to the MB? $40 more. Maybe it's your supposition that the unibody enclosure is worth $490. But it ain't mine.

The base model is $999, and as always (be it Apple or Dell) it's cheapest to get your upgrades on Newegg.

What person on the street says "Oh, I'm going to buy this shell of a laptop, and dump the HDD, the RAM, possibly the GPU and replace them with components from Newegg"? Maybe other Slashdot posters, sure, but the average target market of Dell, and Apple? I think not.

The most appropriate comparison - the one that would be made by a reasonable person and not an asshat such as yourself ... Both machines have a 1280x800 display, although to the Dell's credit, it has a 15.3" display (as opposed to the Macbook's 13.3"), twice the RAM, and a 500GB HDD (vs. the Macbook's 160GB).

You then go on to make the altogether amazing claim, though you describe it as "reasonable" that comparing a 15" laptop to a 13" is appropriate. Sorry, I'm still laughing there.

Also, experience tells me that Apple's build quality is extremely high compared to Dell's. Hardware failures are noticeably less common on Apple hardware, among other advantages.

Experience also tells me that the Macbook line, both pre- and post-Intel, have had all manner of large recall issues, on everything from discoloration of casing, to "logic board failure" (i.e. a completely FUBAR motherboard), and so on and so forth, and several things in between. So experience doesn't really count for a lot.

The great irony is this:

Experience also tells me that talking to you is a waste of time (you can't reason a man out of a position he didn't reason himself into), but maybe someone else will care. And you can call me an Apple fanboy if you like, but you'll still be an idiot.

You say this, having decided for yourself what I am and what I represent. The fact that I'm posting this from a current model Mac Pro, fairly well specced out, will go over your head, because it won't gel with your worldview that I can both use an Apple product and recognize that there are other options which might meet people's needs more cheaply.

Re:Warranty

[Anonymous Coward]

Then go check the bus speed, the exact Core 2 Duo model to see if the level 2 cache (or now VT support) is the same, whether the chipset supports 64 bit or only 32 etc. Some cheaper PC's are still using DDR2 memory.

The PC manufacturers are usually cutting corners below the headline price.

Then the PC will have half the battery life :)

Re:Warranty

[Anonymous Coward]

Personally, I don’t buy the “identical specs” excuse, but I do find the superior software experience to be compelling.

Don’t knock the multitouch until you’ve tried it. I find Apple’s multi-finger approach to gesturing to be much less stressful than the PC companies’ practice of trackpad danger zones.

Want to scroll? Put down 2 fingers, instead of hunting for the scroll zone on the side. Want to not scroll? Put down 1 finger, instead of accidentally hitting the scroll zone. And when gestures do more complicated things, the danger zones become worse. I recently had the misfortune of trying out a VAIO, and Sony’s idea of closing the window if you set your finger in the corner is a surprising and bad idea.

Re:Warranty

[Anonymous Coward]

ah, the 'identical specs' troll. The front line weapon of a troll, used to incite responding posts everywhere.
it goes like this: he posts an inflammatory comment, consisting of about twenty syllables. you reply with 10 times that, 'punishing' him for saying stupid things.

he wins.

Re:Warranty

[Achromatic1978]

A MacBook aluminum, 2.4GHz, 4GB RAM is $1,099? LMAO.

Re:Warranty

[m50d]

Both are priced at $999; the Macbook has a Core 2 Duo at 2 GHz and 2GB of DDR3, whereas the XPS has a Core 2 Duo at 2.2GHz and 4GB of DDR2. The Macbook would clearly be faster, as the twofold increase in memory bandwidth from using DDR3 far outweighs a 10% bump in CPU clock.

Hardly. The higher latency of DDR3 means the real-world performance gain is minimal - wheras having twice the memory will give real, noticeable performance improvements.

Re:Warranty

[MindlessAutomata]

Hah! You should see how Apple nerds defend the cost of iPods verus other personal media devices.

They'll go on and on how about easy the Nano is to use and how it *LACKING* certain features is a good thing because it keeps it less complicated, but won't have a problem shoving under your nose the little features it has that the competition doesn't.

Take for example the Nano vs. Fuze. the Fuze has better sound quality, expansion port for microSDHC cards (! double your space !), a microphone, FM tuner, ogg and flac support, etc, at around a half to two thirds the price of the ipod. But oh no! All that extra stuff makes it so much more complicated--AND, iTunes, YAAAAY!

Apple nerds are an abomination.

Re:Warranty

[hey!]

I'd say the most relevant factor is build quality. Somehow I don't think the difference between a $1000 notebook and a $2000 notebook is really specs -- at least the price differential isn't driven by a processor GHz or disk size. It is, largely as you suggest, market segmentation. But part of that segmentation is build quality. You can get a laptop for $1000 that is within spitting distance of a $2000 laptop, but it may have a dreadful keyboard because there's no spec for spec bargain shoppers to compare.

Simply put, Apple and Lenovo make the best built laptops I've seen. Other name brand laptops may spec out as a better bargain than a ThinkPad, but I've been down that road, having the things start to fall apart after six months.

Re:Warranty

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a nice machine. If I look at Dell's page I see the price is $1,049 ($1,412 - "instant savings") for the closest spec'ed one. So you've got a $250 difference to the cheapest macbook ($1,299)

The macbook does have an aluminum body, gigabit networking, a faster frontside bus, built in bluetooth, multitouch and a better graphics card in exchange for a card reader, more mem, larger HD on the Dell.

I'd spend the extra $250 on the mac, but it's personal preference.

Re:Warranty

[RazorSharp]

All I heard was "my muscle car has more horsepower than your Lamborghini." My Lamborghini will smoke your muscle car on the track. It's not "OS X and iLife" it's OS X and Apple's professional applications. Alienwares don't offer anything I can't get elsewhere (for cheaper), Apple offers the tools I need for my recording studio. When Pro Tools catches up to Logic let me know, but right now they're getting lapped.

Ahhh, the "PCs are cheaper" refrain, the last bastion of the Borg cynic.

Re:Warranty

[Khyber]

I proved this several weeks ago comparing the $999 13" Macbook (the only $999 laptop avaiable from the Apple website) versus my $999 DV9825.

You get less hardware and less features in the 13" Macbook compared to my 17" DV9825. If you wanted EVERYTHING that my DV9825 had built-in, you have to pay an easy extra half-grand, and that's *NOT* including the dongle you have to buy for video-out on the macbook, or paying extra for the remote control (which comes standard with my laptop) nor do you get dual hard drive bays, and you certainly don't get the ability to swap out your graphics card like I can on my laptop. (Hooray MXM slot!)

Oh, and my DV9825NR comes with Firewire. No base-line macbook does.

Want me to keep proving you wrong?

Re:Warranty

[peterb]

How much does it cost to upgrade the XPS M1330 to have a unibody chassis that doesn't flex when I pick it up with one hand?

Re:Warranty

[Jesus_666]

No, we pay extra for Apple because of the way their OS is awesome. For me, given enough money, the MBP is the notebook. I could buy a Dell but then I'd either have to deal with Windows and its unintuitive GUI* and integration-hostile developers or deal with Linux and KDE3 vs. KDE4, different toolkits not sharing themes etc. With an MBP I get FireWire 800 (great plus; I'm one of the people who actually use it) and OS X, which works much better for me than the other OSes. Really worth a couple bucks more.



* No, I'm not some kind of Unix holdout who has never used Windows before. I've used every consumer version of Windows since 3.11 and only switched to *nix relatively recently. And I still think their GUI is unintuitive.

Re:Warranty

[parakleta]

Well, I just compared the two machines and I got the MacBook at $1598 with a nicer case (obviously subjective), faster bus speeds (20%) and a better graphics card (also about 20% by some benchmarks), as well as gigabit ethernet, but smaller HDD. The XPS M1330 came to $1403. So in the end you get a slightly better machine for slightly more money from Apple. More or less parity.

I'm not sure where you got the extra $200 on the Mac from, but the extra $200 I had on the XPS I'm assuming probably came from the little options like the LED backlight, and the better Windows License to get a closer match for features.

Nothing is going to be an exact match (unless someone does release something with exactly the same specs I guess) and largely someone's concept of value is going to vary by what is important to them. You may not care about the gigabit ethernet, or may consider the difference in bus speed or graphics capabilities largely irrelevant, but they do create a price difference. You may not care for the aluminium case or glass screen, but I'd expect that it costs a bit more to make, and I think they're worth it. I'd also rather have Mac OS X on a laptop than Windows, and that's worth something to me as well.

Looking at Apple's website, we could ditch the aluminium and glass, and the LED backlight to take about $350 off the price of the MacBook, only saving about $200 on the XPS, and they become almost the same price.

Re:Warranty

[Anonymous Coward]

there is no need to be desperate.

some ppl are prepared to pay more to use os x.

because os x is what they like.

it's like with the alcoholic drinks - you have favourites and you have ones you can't stand or just don't enjoy that much.

why do you need a rational justification for everything? you probably took too much IT and formal logic classes.

Killing the resale value

[olddotter]

They are just ensuring there is no resale value for there products. Imagine if a car company refused to sell you repair parts if you buy the car second hand? Their products would have ZERO resale value, which means that no one would buy one in the first place, because they would know that when they wanted to trade up, there was no market for their old model.

Given the resale value of used Apple hardware, those prices don't seem so high now.

Transfer

[shentino]

Why did the former owner not transfer his alienware account to you?

Sounds like the one ripping you off is the original seller, much like if you bought a car and he didn't transfer the title.

Then again...why do you need an alienware account in the first place?

Re:Transfer

[Lunatrik]

My brother has an alienware system, and you can have multiple systems associated with the same account. Thus, it wouldn't even make sense for someone to list another person on your account as a rights-holder -- what if they stole another of your computers?

Bad system all around, bad company in my experience. Sad, too, because they started off overpriced but friendly.

Re:Transfer

[TiberSeptm]

That would be ridiculous. Assuming the seller didn't have any other Alienware computers, it would still be asinine to expect them to give the purchaser access to their private account. As this experience shows, access to that account is the primary way that Alienware employees assure themselves that they are talking to YOU. It is, unless they have changed it recently, the same account you use to make and track purchases.

Now if the seller does still own Alienware machines then this suggestion is even more ridiculous since they would still need their account for their own very probably hardware failures. Then there wouldn't really even be a possibility of them removing personal information from the account before giving access to the new owner.

This is nothing like transferring the title to a car, since there is a mechanism to do that. This is like demanding someone who sold you a used but unlocked cell phone put you on their plan. You should not have to create joint access to your private support and billing logins in order to resell a used computer.

Re:Transfer

[Eil]

Why did the former owner not transfer his alienware account to you?

Sounds like the one ripping you off is the original seller, much like if you bought a car and he didn't transfer the title.

Computers neither have no need titles.

Re:Transfer

[amiga3D]

If I bought a Mustang without a title their are hundreds of companies along with Ford that'll sell me parts for it.

Re:Transfer

[shentino]

Agreed.

Alienware should allow you to transfer machines.

1. Either the owner of record can transfer
2. With proof of purchase, the new owner can force a transfer.

Re:Transfer

[shentino]

Which is why alienware is being a complete douchebag for giving the new owner flak.

However, that still doesn't let the seller off the hook for failing to notify alienware of the sale.

Re:Transfer

[shentino]

Strike number 2 in the case of a stolen machine. Sales receipts can be forged.

Unless alienware isn't able to transfer ownership records, then alienware is not at fault here.

Blame the seller.

Re:Transfer

[nurb432]

Why do you need an 'account' in the first place for a piece of hardware?

Sounds like a company begging to go down in flame to me. Do they have this 'ownership transfer clause' in their EULA? It would still be insane, but I'm curious.

Re:Transfer

[jc42]

I don't remember ever being asked to show title to a car to anyone doing repairs or selling parts. Here in the US, the general advice is that you keep the title in a safe place where it can't be easily stolen. In particular, don't keep it in the car, because then a car thief could easily forge a sales document and they'd legally own it. (You keep the state registration paper in the car for when a cop stops you; the registrations papers aren't the title deed.)

Anyway, I'll try to remember Alienware as a company to stay away from.

Re:Transfer

[Nick Ives]

It's worse than that: by refusing to sell spares to the second-hand market they're destroying the resale value of their overpriced machines.

Re:Transfer

[Anonymous Coward]

The much easier fix is to just assume that the person who possesses a computer is the legal owner, unless you have reason to believe otherwise. We don't need to create a system of titles that need to be transferred with each computer sale.

Re:Transfer

[shentino]

I think that title is a good thing for big ticket items.

I'm assuming that's why they do it for cars.

As far as for high end computers and laptops, I would be in favor of it IF IT WERE DONE RIGHT.

Namely, for transferring to not be a complete pain in the ass.

And since electronic equipment is prone to being stolen, I think this is a special case.

Also I think it would be kinda shady for a seller to sell a box like that without knowing the buyer would run into some sort of trouble with alienware.

Re:Transfer

[fishbowl]

It's like, if you sell one of your cars, you have to transfer the title to ALL your cars.

Re:Transfer

[fishbowl]

Any negative impact to the resale market, contributes positively to the new computer market -- and when you're the size of Dell you can put real numbers on that stuff. I'd bet that when you do, you get larger numbers than the *entire volume* of smaller producers.

Re:Transfer

[fishbowl]

>Sounds like a company begging to go down in flame to me.

No, it's a company that was basically one of the first to recognize that the medium-to-large business market is all that really matters, and no matter how good or bad their model is for the individual consumer, it's a drop in the bucket. So they limit the scope and scale of their consumer business. They make their real money in server room racks (Dell switches are a far better value proposition than Cisco, for most enterprises, for example), and in office environments (seriously, how often do you see large offices that *don't* deploy Dells?)

Even my office, which is a resolute Mac OSX shop, has Dell networking hardware and quite a few 1U Dell rack servers (Windows Servers[don't ask] and Redhat Linux). There are a few people who are beyond IT policies and a few of them have Dell notebooks. I don't disagree with their reasons. When you have a corporate account with Dell, they are very, very good with the on-site service, discount pricing, and so on.

As an individual I would never buy a Dell, unless maybe I got my company's discount. Having said that, I think I would like one of the dual quad-core 1U server machines in my audio production rack. Something about Dells, they tend to be very quiet machines -- "embarrassingly" so if you've spent money trying to make a silent PC.

But seriously I wouldn't want to be an individual customer of theirs, since the same factors that make them a very good choice for a corporate vendor, work against them on the consumer side.

Re:Transfer

[Anonymous Coward]

read above. my point exactly.

Buy IBM/Lenovo

[thetoadwarrior]

Seriously, IBM make some of the best laptops around. Alienware makes shit that appeals to "core" gamers who think they're getting the best thing for gaming but all they're getting is an over priced piece of shit. It's been that way before and after the Dell purchase.

Re:Buy IBM/Lenovo

[Sir_Lewk]

Absolutely, a high end thinkpad may be "for business types" but it still smokes pretty much anything else on the market. You'll just have to live without it being covered in blue LEDs or whatever shit they're doing to "cool" laptops these days.

Re:Buy IBM/Lenovo

[cbhacking]

Are there any decent 17" Lenovo laptops with *real* GPUs yet? The main selling point of Alienware isn't the look or the name, it's the graphics - you can get dual (SLI or CrossFireX) high-end cards, good processors, and even RAID-0 hard drives, in a 17" laptop, for about $2000. I don't know of any other vendor offering that - Toshiba tries but their machines are far more expensive.

No, I've never bought from them - I don't have $2k for a new laptop and a really top-of-the-line graphics solution isn't necessary - but their specs to price ratios are actually surprisingly good. I know nothing about their customer service quality, however.

Re:Buy IBM/Lenovo

[The Rizz]

Seriously, IBM make some of the best laptops around.

IBM doesn't make any laptops, and haven't for years. They don't even rebrand laptops as their own, anymore - they sold all rights to the ThinkPad and related names to Lenovo (who had already been making ThinkPads for years) and got out of the desktop/laptop market entirely.

As for quality, I've heard that ever since IBMs name got taken off them, the quality has gone downhill. I haven't actually bought a Lenovo recently to test this out for myself (my current laptop is one of the last IBM-branded Thinkpads released), so I don't know what their current quality actually is, but would definitely suggest you go out and look at current reviews before you buy anything - don't just go off the quality standards they had years ago.

Re:Buy IBM/Lenovo

[jc42]

IBM make some of the best laptops around.

IBM makes laptops? They don't make Thinkpads, and never have. Those are manufactured by Lenovo, and are now sold by Lenovo.

Of course, it can be hard to keep track of who's manufacturing what, who's installing software, and who's doing the selling (under which brand names.)

I read what I thought was a bit of humor a while ago, which explained that IBM no longer actually makes anything that's concerned with computers. They just live off the billions of $$$ they get annually from their patent portfolio and from royalties for the use of their logo. At least I thought this was humor, but what do I know?

Re:Buy IBM/Lenovo

[thetoadwarrior]

This is true but I haven't heard any complaints from Lenovo ThinkPad owners. I've yet to transition from a non-IBM ThinkPad ot a Lenovo one.

And true, while they may look the same on the outside, anything could be inside them, I'm not sure I'll find out in the nearish future as I'll try a Lenovo ThinkPad if I don't get a MacBook.

Re:Buy IBM/Lenovo

[PiSkyHi]

... yeah but its the fastest priced of over-priced shit you can get - in fact, it may not even be the fastest, but it is the most expensive, so it must be better... right ?

Re:Buy IBM/Lenovo

[balloonpup]

My workplace uses Lenovo Thinkpads exclusively (switched from Dell last year) and I've found them to be quite good. Very near what I'm used to from the IBM ones... however, this is their business line. I've no idea how their consumer line is.

Re:Buy IBM/Lenovo

[sethstorm]

Save up for a W700/W700ds.

Then remove about any option you can live without except warranty.

Re:Simple Solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Aren't you supposed to say something about "sheeple"?

Other than that, welcome back; we missed you.

Alienware are overpriced anyway

[Lonewolf666]

Unless you have money to burn or zero skill at assembling a PC yourself, I recommend putting together your own machine. You can get a comparable rig for much less money than an Alienware that way, even if you choose a nice designer case.

The lousy customer service is merely the icing on the cake.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[Antique Geekmeister]

I'm a pro, and have built systems for.... well, longer than the lifespan of many newer Slashdot readers. Unless you like breaking equipment, wasting money, and climbing up a very steep learning curve, I recommend you buy a modest machine and spend your time instead on learning programming. The hard-won lessons of how to gracefully install or replace a heatsnk without getting silver heat sink paste into your memory slots, and to always buy a bag of those thumbscrews, what order the memory modules need to be installed, how to bundle your cabling and keep the airflow clear, how to get hard drives mounted given the knuckle-biting layout of screwing in some disk drives, etc., are a _complete_ waste of useful time for many people.

Alienware is, admittedly, pretty silly. Buy a refurbished Dell machine at their outlet or on Ebay, and spend your money on upgrades when you need them.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[Anonymous Coward]

You act like all of that stuff is difficult, you must work for Geek Squad?

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[The Analog Kid]

Alienware is, admittedly, pretty silly. Buy a refurbished Dell machine at their outlet or on Ebay, and spend your money on upgrades when you need them.

Alienware is a subsidiary of Dell. He'd just be giving money to the parent company of the subsidiary that is screwing him over.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're talking about laptops, you might have a point.

      But desktops are easier than legos. The hardest part is deciding what fits your needs best, and luckily there's tons of forums out there for helping people decide just that.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[mysidia]

Most members of the public have no business trying to build a PC on their own.

And even if you're a computer enthusiast, and you completely know how to do it.. Computers are a commodity now, and there's really no point in building them, once you've done it a few times and had your fun.

I for one would rather spend time designing software, programming, writing, and doing the things one gets a computer to do. So yeah, maybe it's laziness, or more about wanting to concentrate on more interesting things.

Nothing I build on my own will look as cool as an Alienware laptop, or other vendors that make equipment for high-end computers users, utilizing specialized parts.

Alienware uses custom designs you can't just buy off the street and build yourself, not without a lot of pain....

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[mysidia]

If everyone buys from Dell instead of Alienware, Dell will see the horrible numbers of the Alienware subsidiary, and drop them like a bad habit.

Yeah, Dell actually has a sane policy, you can buy replacement parts from them, without owning or proving you have a Dell PC. If the Dell management ever cracks down on Alienware and makes them change their rules, or they simply absorb Alienware totally, and change their policies, it'll be fine to buy from them.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[ergean]

I don't know... I can build a new system in 30min tops if I have the components on my bench and they all are OK. I take probably more to have them ready for production. Depending on the destination I stress test them for at least 24h. After that clean install, clone and be on your way.

And I would advice every one to do this. I enjoy building my computers from parts. It takes me more to chose the right components than to build them.

Take it like a puzzle and enjoy it. And don't worry even if you brake something you are still paying less than buying a DELL.

I see this trend on slashdot and I can't understand it. People saying if you make more then xx$/h you should buy that and don't bother to do it yourself. I would say to you... damn you sleep probably around 8h/day think about all that wasted money.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[Lonewolf666]

I'm more of a hobbyist, and have built half a dozen systems for myself over the years. Admittedly all of those were desktops where stuff is mostly standardized. So far I have no breakage from mistakes in assembling the machines. And no problems with the heat sink paste either ;-)
I had to replace a few fans or entire heatsinks when the bearings went bad, and in one case a mainboard/CPU combo. But all of those were bad components, which you can also get from buying a pre-made PC.

I'm not opposed to buying pre-made on principle, but I have rarely seen an offer where I liked all the components that were installed. If those were specified in detail at all.
The better office machines tend to have the quality components I want, but the GPU options often end one class below what I'm looking for. Besides, large vendors often use non-standard parts which will really limit your options for later upgrades. Compaq putting part of the BIOS onto the HD (around the year 2000) comes to mind. Or proprietary main board form factors. Bleh.
The pre-made machines for the home user tend to be built for maximum gaming performance, but without regard for reliability and energy efficiency. CPUs that eat 120 watts of power? Cheap no-name RAM (don't even think of ECC)? Bleh.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[shentino]

Indeed, I'd like putting myself on hold when I need me to service my machine.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[crazypip666]

How can you say there is no point to it? I build my own rigs because I want to know that every part in them is high quality, and I want to ensure that I can upgrade as I see fit. If I bought a Dell, I would get low quality parts, poor airflow and system layout, poor upgradeablity, and yet pay more for it. Why would I even consider buying a prebuilt system?

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[Anonymous Coward]

Slowly explain the lesson on the buying the thumb screw thing again. You lost me there for a minute. I think youre talking over our heads.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[mdwh2]

Building a new one entirely from scratch, maybe. But when it comes to a failure in a component, or wanting to upgrade the motherboard, it's an awful lot cheaper to just replace the required bits, rather than having to buy a complete new machine.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[Nick Ives]

Learning how to code is harder than building PCs. I've never once killed a part due to ESD (despite having curious cats and often not bothering to earth myself) and these days can build a PC in less than an hour.

Windows pretty much installs itself, you just have to answer a few questions and away it goes. If you install Windows with any frequency then it's worth your while to learn how to do unattended installs over your network. If you can figure out how to build a PC then you can do Windows installations for friends & colleagues and that's always a nice source of beer money.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[stim]

if you browse Slashdot you can probably do all those things pretty easily.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[rubycodez]

won't be 30 minutes for a first timer, will be hours and maybe even more if they want to run Linux. Most people couldn't be bothered with the risk and time investment, I don't blame them. I just did the barebones thing myself, had to spend a few hours with BIOS settings so I'd get my full 4GB with 64 bit Linux and the $40 used nvidia card working so text boot-up status and full X11 working. Quite frankly I could not feel bad about spending $400 more and not having the hassle.....

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[CFBMoo1]

Well I build my own computer because it's fun. After 20 years of tearing apart and building my own machines, it's not any less fun now then it was when I first watched the guy in the Radio Shack store rebuild my Tandy 1000 TL/2 (Which I promptly took apart again when I got it home only that time I rebuilt it successfully.)

I would *love* to build my own laptop or netbook specifically. Sadly parts just aren't as easy to come by as desktop parts are.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[Anonymous Coward]

Are we still talking about laptops?

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[j_sp_r]

Buy business systems, not the consumer crap. Goes for every manufacturer.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[Anonymous Coward]

You act like all of that stuff is difficult, you must work for Geek Squad?

Exactly my thoughts,

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[Kankraka]

Sorry to prod at you again, but, HP fails in this regards too. Seen many a business grade HP chew through HDD's faster than necessary, suffer from crap batteries, and overheat while making a pile of fan noise just the same as my consumer grade ones. I do have an HP business class machine from 1998/1999, and if I could find a drive adapter for it, I'd still use it. When I finally retired it a couple summers ago it was -still- getting 1.5h from the original battery, and ran debian fantastically. Somewhere between then and now, HP screwed up bad. I will never buy another one of their laptops.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[Abstrackt]

Nothing I build on my own will look as cool as an Alienware laptop, or other vendors that make equipment for high-end computers users, utilizing specialized parts.

Is that perhaps why you don't build systems? ;)

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[Anonymous Coward]

EISACFG would rape your ass no 30 min builds back in the day.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[stonewallred]

I was a HVAC/R technician for most of my life. I have a very broad skill set for specific repairs of systems and broad based knowledge of every other trade and the skills to replicate what they do. This includes electrical,masonry,roofing,plumbing,carpentry,and sheetrock installing and finishing, carpet laying and flooring, along with setting and repairing ceramic tiles. In other words if it is broke and is in a building, I can usually fix it(hence why HVAC/R techs make the most money of all the skilled trades). But when I want my house painted, I cal a painter, when I want new lights installed in new places , I call an electrician, same with all the other trades. My time is more valuable,even though I am fully qualified to do the work, than the money I save bu doing it myself. But I upgrade my own computers, replace parts and hold long talks with my geek buddy when I want/need a new one. I let him build mine, because i trust his skills much more than I trust mine. But I may build my next one myself with his advice. Well, this post was going somewhere, and had a point, but the everclear and SC has started to kick in and I have lost my train of thought. Anywhoo, even a non-geek like me knows not to buy a pre-built consumer marketed computer.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[stonewallred]

I have friends who I do stuff for free(they buy the parts) or people I know who I do stuff fro and they have to pay me something, and it is more than beer money. Fucking call me at 3am because your AC broke, you better be my mom, sister,niece or one of three good friends. Or a customer who doesn't mind being told to fuck off and wait until a decent hour. I made it a habit to do emergency calls for customers at the regular rate, but I decided what was an emergency, not them. I do think I have passed the buzz and went straight to drunk. Maybe it was the pills??

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[Anonymous Coward]

You seem to be lost. I'd guess at least 90% of the comment readers here know how to put a computer together properly. Probably closer to 99% if you consider a semi-sloppy job. Most probably spent a very limited amount of time learning how. It's not hard.

How this got modded 4 insightful is beyond me.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[Thinboy00]

And of course, HP printers never work without silly broken drivers.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[hamburgler007]

30 minutes? Clearly you are spending far to much time actually putting the screws in.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[mysidia]

Swapping individual parts is great, to some extent.

There aren't that many parts that are worth swapping in a laptop; possibly Hard Drive, RAM, maybe Wireless card (replace 802.11g card with 802.11n card). If it's seriously broken, send it in under warranty, or (if Warranty's expired) pull the hard drive+RAM, and scrap it for a new one.

It's obsolete in 5 years anyways. I've not had problems with computer parts breaking in 10 years... in general they're outdated and need replacement long before they finally fail...

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[mysidia]

Then that's one of your hobbies, and there's nothing wrong with that. But the time and research it takes to do all that work is not insubstantial, not to mention the time and expense to locate good prices on and order the various high-end parts from various vendors and time it takes actually physically building the system, after you've spent hours upon hours figuring the design you want...

I question the claim that "every part is high quality" means it's that much better than a Dell with less expensive parts.

And I question the claim it's less expensive to build, even that parts are cheaper.

And also... your time is worth something, isn't it? You consume time you could be doing other things with. That has a certain value and is part of the cost.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, you are three kinds of retarded.

I mean, it's one kind to take a simple mechanical task and be overly proud of it i.e. "I'm a good driver...yeah...definitely a good driver".

To the broadcast your accomplishments on the internet, on a the high holy of geek e-peen waving website, is another level.

Now, the 3rd kind of special retard is giving advice based on your inability to master the simple. Like Corky's advice on cooking. "The oven hot..you shouldn't use the oven..it's hot"

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[Nick Ives]

Fucking call me at 3am because your AC broke

I'm talking more like reinstalling Windows for people when their machine gets hijacked by the malware du-jour. If you use RIS then the only real work you have to do is download drivers from the manufacturers website. You even avoid inputting their product key - I've built up a decent collection of OEMBIOS files from various people's recovery media so my Windows images will activate on most major name brands.

They give you the box, you plug it into your network, you download drivers at some point and install them. Beer money.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[crazypip666]

Hardware is one of my hobbies, and no matter how many times I build and rebuild, I never get tired of it. Give me a price ceailing, and a description of what you will be using the system for, and I can have something speced out within half an hour most times. Dell and HP and the like use lower quality parts. You will get the same processor, and probably the same name brand video card, but other than that, you will get a locked down and hard to upgrade motherboard, low speced RAM, typically a lower end hard drive and DVD drive, and worst of all, a power supply which will never support any sort of upgrade. Not the mention the terrible cases, and non standard form factors some companies love to use. To know that you are being ripped off for the cost of parts, all you need to do is look at the price it takes you to upgrade from one video card to another, then compare the difference with the difference in the cost of the cards should you buy them elsewhere. As for my time, sure it's worth something, but just because my time is worth something should I hire someone else to mow my lawn? The point of my post was that for a decent computer on a budget, you build your own. If you don't, it won't be as good or as cheap as if you had put it together yourself.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[MindlessAutomata]

Holy crap! You must be getting really old, or something. Losing eyesight there, old geezer? No longer have a steady hand? Putting a computer together is really easy, especially nowadays. If you've had THAT much trouble, you're doing something wrong.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[m50d]

And I would advice every one to do this. I enjoy building my computers from parts.

If you enjoy it then fair enough. I do the same thing sometimes when it comes to making clothes, sewing my own and taking far longer over it than the cost saving over just buying from the supermarket. But treat that as what it is, a hobby that you are in some sense "wasting" your time on. If you don't enjoy it (and there will be people who don't, not everyone is the same), there is no point building your own computer any more; it's not worth it financially.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[Antique Geekmeister]

Being a different department seems to make a difference. I've never encountered or heard of that kind of wackiness with Dell's mainline hardware.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[Antique Geekmeister]

No, I still do such things professionally. There are some hidden requirements: that first 50 hours of experience is really useful. And knowing how, and having the tools to find the drivers elsewhere and get them installed so you can even get the thing booted, connected to the Internet, and the patches downloaded before the thing gets rootkitted if you don't have a good firewall and run it in a DMZ, or having the major patches pre-downloaded on local media, is a nightmare.

This is _especially_ the case for laptops, which often have some very strange chipsets for networks, modems, graphics, touchpads, and power control that are not part of the base operating system. And assembling a laptop, such as the original poster desired is... well, it's insane. Laptops are far, far, far worse than a normal PC tower at having individually extremely expensive, custom fitted components for their display, keyboards, and power supplies that are nightmarish to obtain except from a particular laptop vendor at a triple markup price.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[Carbon016]

Whoa. And I always thought there were drivers on CDs that came with hardware. I guess those are too expensive nowadays.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[dcam]

What kind of a pro are you?

These days putting together a machine is just putting things in the holds that fit. If it doesn't fit, you have the wrong hole. The only way you break equipment is by forcing something where it fits. This isn't the good old days where you could plug in a processor incorrectly.

Your examples:
- heat sink, most processors ship with a heat sink that has a small area of heat sink compound, no need for paste.
- most cases ship with the more that the necessary number of screws
- Memory modules, what do you mean about order. The only issue is to ensure that you get your memory modules in matching slots if it is dual channel RAM. Even then, most computers will display an error if you get it wrong rather than blowing the RAM.
- cabling, generally not a worry unless you are packing your machine
- HDD screws, depends on the case

Frankly, I'd be pretty confident that my parents (>60, never seen the inside of a machine) could put one together with just the component parts and the instructions they ship with.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[dissy]

Slashdot - News for lazy nerds, stuff that.. meh ;}

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[rednip]

Sorry, but I'm having a hard time swallowing your comment; First you insist that building a computer is too difficult and insist that it's best to buy a 'modest machine', then you tell people to 'upgrade as needed'. We'll unless you think that upgrades are something done by a shop, they'll need to crack the case. However I'm certain that you mean a 'professional upgrade'. Well, last year (without talking to me) my mom had some 'professional' service done to her pc, and $350 dollars later, they ran a spyware program and installed maybe $75 of RAM. The average user is MUCH better off buy a little better machine that'll last 3 or more years than being ripped off by a 'pro'. Others who have a little OS experience, dealing with difficult drivers, finding and installing new programs, you know 'power users' could find personally building and upgrading PCs a rewarding challenge. One won't save a lot of money really, but you'll get the machine you want.

Of course, sometimes motherboards can be a real bitch, but I've noticed that they gotten easier every couple of years. Better firmware, better drivers, and better manuals. I'm not sure when you've last seen a retail Intel cpu, but the fans come with pre-applied paste, and even if you wanted to use the 'real stuff', if you are getting silver paste in the memory slots, I'd serious suggest that you stay away from anything sharp. Today's motherboards are color coded, and built to be easy to install. Every thing on it will only snap in the right way, and generally you really have to screw up to do it wrong. The only downside is the occasional bad from the factory part. Even the 'missing instructions' can be found using the miracle of the internet search engine. If one takes their time, reads the instructions (a good idea ever for me), plans their build, keeps a working PC handy, and is willing to ask questions (rl friend, forum, or the part's customer service), then it should be good experience.

Also, people who buy Alienware are generally more interested in fps than threading. I'd even go as far as saying that most people, even most gamers aren't very inclined to learning programming. It's very complex, often frustrating, and I'd say much harder than snapping together a box. I love doing both, but I'm weird in other ways too.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[fractoid]

You will always, ALWAYS end up with 1 too few case screws. I dunno how it works but even if you have 500 other screws and odds and ends left over, you'll be one case screw short. Most cases these days use thumb screws (screws with big easily gripped heads on them for turning with finger and thumb, not the torture device). Hence buy a bag of thumb screws. :)

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[Khyber]

What the fuck are you talking about? Most shit now days is color-coded and pre-assembled so you don't have to do exactly what you mention.

It's actually been like that for well over 15 years. Steep learning curve my ass. I trained 50+ years old women that couldn't program a VCR to save their lives how to strip and repair a laptop, then re-assemble it in under 20 minutes. It only took two weeks and no steep learning curve required (The only "steep learning curve" is the fucking terminology, which usually has no plain-english counterpart.)

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[rubycodez]

yes, lazy in hobbies. with wife and kids can't spend hours each day farting around with computers any more. there was a time when I spent more hours on hobbies then the 40-50 hours a week working, guess that explains not dating much and not getting married until 33 years old :p

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[Jesus_666]

Alienware uses custom designs you can't just buy off the street and build yourself, not without a lot of pain....

Who needs custom? If you really need your tower to be impressive you just get yourself a Silverstone (or a Thermaltake if you like it tacky).

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[MindlessAutomata]

Those are usually out of date so there's often no good reason to just use them.

Putting a PC together is easy, though. Parent greatly exaggerates the difficulty of putting together a PC. True, you can't forget the importance of doing research for compatibility ahead of time, but it's generally really easy to do. Especially nowadays that heatsinks just pop in instead of that older-style nonsense with those ridiculous clips.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[Antique Geekmeister]

There are. But if you build the boxes from components, or you rebuild from used components, those drivers are often out of date or interfere with other components. BIOS updates are pretty important for basic performance reasons, and if you get a Vista CD and want to install Windows XP, or get a Windows XP Home installation CD and have a license and want to install 64-bit Windows XP (which I did a few days ago on a Dell laptop), it's a painful amount of extra work.

It's like knitting your own socks. If you enjoy it, fine, but it's usually a lot faster and cheaper to just buy them.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[Antique Geekmeister]

I'm an expert, who's been rebuilding custom hardware for decades (although less in the last decade, I finally have company staff who are well trained enough to do a good job). Let's go down your list.

* The pre-provided heat sink paste is usually poor quality. You get better performance, and a much longer lasting heat sink, if you spend a bit of extra money for the silver heat paste and add it. (It's a noticeable the difference between bottom-of-the-line computers and server class hardware.) Also, many heat sinks are a _nightmare_ to install: the clips break, you have to be sure to get all the cabling out of the way and often cut the Ty-wraps and re-arrange the cabling to get the leverage to clip it down. There are well designed cases that minimize this, but they cost more.

* Most cases ship with _awful_ screws. Cheap pieces of tin that strip if you blink at them. And similarly, the threaded holes in many cheap cases are badly aligned, access to the screws is badly handled and it's difficult to get a screwdriver in place to remove or thread them properly. A few extra tools, such as screwdrivers with clips on the end or magnetic screwdrivers or high-quality Snap-On tools with thin but strong shafts are invaluable for such work. The better quality screws, especially those bulky hand-tightenable external ones, make the work much easier.

* Memory is now going to DDR-3, which now means 3 DIMM's at a time, and differing performance depending on how many slots you occupy. This is going to surprise a lot of people who think that 12 slots with 1 Gig modules are going to be the same as 3 slots with 4 Gig modules. And that kind of weirdness about memory layout and matching has been a shifting field for decades. So for a new, self-assembling person, walking through the debugging of POST messages is a nightmare begging to happen.

* Cabling is trickier than you may realize. If you're assembling your machine from components, it _is_ tricky. Many home assemblers do a poor job of protecting their air flow. So do many professional assemblers and repair people, frankly. And until SATA and SAS became so common with their much thinner cables for disk drives, those wide IDE and SCSI cables in the way were a very, very nasty source of ventilation blocking. And few things are as much fun as finding that a cable is just a _tiny_ bit short, and somebody assembled it in a slightly different order or layout, and the power cable for the front panel that used to seat reliably now pulls free over the course of a week, and you have to open it up and recable. And those connectors are often easy to bend and damage: There's nothing like having to replace or resolder a mother board because some amateur bent and broke the power pins for the system controlled fans. (This is a reason that I like Dell machines: they do a good job of this without spending too much money.)

Like cooking pancakes, which so many of us did for our wives and mothers on Mother's Day, there's some up-front training that's vital to doing a good job. It's the difference between Mom saying "how *nice* and having to spend the morning cleaning up the mess in the kitchen, and Mom getting to stay in bed without the fire alarm going off even once. If you've got some experience in the kitchen, or someone to teach you, enjoy the experience. But if you don't have experience, expect surprises.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[Antique Geekmeister]

Your experience is interesting. I've had to do a lot of cleanup from other people trying to upgrade their machines, especially desktops. (I've worked in small groups where people were responsible for their own hardware, but wound up coming to me to clean up the mess.)

It sounds like you have pretty demanding specs for new machines. Good! People like you drive the market to get the components tested for people like me, who are cheaper and happy to be a year behind the curve and let you test out those newer, higher end components.

And you _have_ reminded me of the RAM quality problems. Spending hours after installling the machine, properly burning in the RAM to make sure it's not failing, is very expensive time.

Re:Alienware are overpriced anyway

[Lonewolf666]

Actually I tend to be a few months behind the latest releases myself, because I value reliability over having the very latest features. And a few months of BIOS and driver upgrades often make a difference.

My (desktop) machines are usually mid range in performance, with an eye on quality parts and moderate to low energy consumption. That means things like decent power supplies with 80+ percent efficiency, CPUs and GPUs with a power consumption of 70 watts each or less, and quality RAM with ECC.
For brands that do well in reviews which test robustness and reliability, I'm willing to pay a few euros more. In particular, that means power supplies and RAM, because both reviews and my own experience in those areas have shown there is real crap in the market.

Finally, there is one real lesson learned I'd like to pass on:
If possible, get GPUs and main boards with passive heat sinks (for the main board chipset). Or at least make sure there are aftermarket replacements available. The fans on those tend to be lousy quality and develop defective bearings after maybe a year, and getting a replacement that fits can be difficult (finding a CPU cooler is much easier, so I usually try the standard CPU cooler first and worry about alternatives later).

It's a laptop

[tepples]

Unless you have money to burn or zero skill at assembling a PC yourself, I recommend putting together your own machine.

How does one just put together a laptop? Last time I checked, laptop motherboards and cases hadn't been standardized to that point.

Re:It's a laptop

[skine]

Barebones notebooks are readily available at several online retailers (including Newegg), and similar systems to those offered by Alienware can be easily assembled by anyone who knows anything about the inside of a notebook.

Re:It's a laptop

[manekineko2]

Any so-called similar systems built from barebones notebooks you make are only similar in the sense of their specs maybe. Much more so than for desktops though, for laptops, things like build quality of the PC as a cohesive whole matters. Also, instead of having one stop for warranty matters, suddenly you now have to deal with each of your component makers. Same situation as for desktops, except that notebooks that are by nature portable break 100x more than desktops.

Any ordinary geek can put together a desktop, but it takes a pretty hardcore geek (more hardcore than any I know) to build their own notebook.

Re:It's a laptop

[googlesmith123]

barebones are barebones, once you've made your choice (which usually doesn't include everything you'd like) all you can really customize is the cpu, ram and harddrive.

Re:It's a laptop

[abigsmurf]

'Barebones' laptops are massively overpriced, the range isn't great and don't offer much over a regular laptop.

Buy the cheapest model of a laptop with a decent board, swap out the (likely) celeron cpu, replace it with the best core2 it'll take and boost the ram to 4gigs, it can save you a fair of money, provided you can source OEM laptop cpus at non-insane prices.

Re:It's a laptop

[j_sp_r]

And you can get the cooling right (and quiet)

Re:It's a laptop

[Hadlock]

You read about people alluding to companies that do this, but I've actually seen a custom built laptop in person. Back in 2002 they were available. Buddy's friend needed some sort of wacky combination optical drive plus extended battery and custom built was the only way to go at the time. Looked just like a 2002 vintage Dell. Intel and all the major manufacturers make "reference design" boards which are then sold to 3rd party manufacturers to copy and produce their own designs/tweaks from. It's not terribly hard to get ahold of a reference board and case and connect the other stuff together cobbled from newegg, it's just a pain in the ass to do it for a one-off model at home.

Re:It's a laptop

[HeronBlademaster]

While I've built a dozen desktops for other people, I've been using laptops for myself (though I'll finally be building myself a desktop next month). I've always wanted to build my own laptop, assuming it's financially viable and logistically doable...

Can anyone provide any resources (websites, articles, etc etc) for building your own laptop, instead of saying it's "easily assembled by anyone who knows anything about the inside of a notebook"? I'm quite familiar with the insides of notebooks, having disassembled a few, but that doesn't help me figure out where to buy retail parts...

Re:It's a laptop

[Kankraka]

pfffft, we can't even rely on laptop manufactures to get that right. My HP's are a testament to this fact.

Re:It's a laptop

[f8l_0e]

If the laptop I'm posting from is any indication, MSI has it right. I bought this GX620 three weeks ago. It's quiet and cool even after running video games.

Re:It's a laptop

[Kankraka]

I've been looking into them recently since the Wind was released, I may have to give them a shot based on your testimony. The specs are certainly to my desires!

Re:It's a laptop

[Thinboy00]

For buying stuff, in general, go to ebay or craigslist.

For info, you might possibly find something at wikibooks (a complement project of Wikipedia, with the same degree of reliability) en.wikibooks.org (for the english version). OTOH, you might find nothing.

I'm not an expert in any of this; I've never put together a notebook myself; I'm just guessing that if there's information/parts/etc. to be had, these websites will have it/them/what-have-you. As a last resort, try google.

Re:It's a laptop

[jnork]

Thought he'd mentioned Newegg? You could try that.

Have you considered a 'web search? I get lots of hits from Google. Take you less time than waiting for an answer on /. and the results will have 70% less sarcasm.

---

You know... I remember in the '80s reminding people to search the 'web when they were trying to find stuff. It was pretty new back then, and we'd have to use our personal dial-up accounts, like as not, but I didn't feel surprised that I had to remind people. (Clever. But not surprised.)

But now? 20 years later? The 'net is ubiquitous, everybody I know has cable or DSL connections (except one guy in the boonies), the kids growing up have no clue what it was like not to have it, and sometimes I STILL have to remind people to do a 'web search.

Amazing.

Ah, well, you know what they say -- nostalgia just isn't what it used to be.

Re:It's a laptop

[HeronBlademaster]

When I ask for resources for building your own laptop, I'm not talking about "a complete 'barebones' laptop that's maybe missing a hard drive and RAM", which is pretty much what you get at Newegg. If I want that, I'll go buy a cheaper Dell and swap out the hard drive and possibly the CPU.

What I want is a place to buy the parts necessary to build those so-called 'barebones' systems - they're hardly barebones, they already come with most of the parts! I realize there is little or no standardization in the laptop market, but that only adds to the reasoning behind my question.

Answering my question is not so easy as "go to Newegg" or even "Google it". The reason I asked was that there is a fair chance that if it's financially viable and logistically doable, someone on Slashdot has done it before, and will be able to point me in the right direction - for building laptops "from scratch", Newegg is not the answer.

Re:It's a laptop

[f8l_0e]

Sorry about the late reply.
I ordered this laptop specifically because it has virtualization enabled.
I kept the Vista Home Premium partition (will get replaced with Win7 x64 when it goes retail).
I wiped the secondary partition and installed Ubuntu 9.04. I installed KVM in Jaunty and I've installed Win7 RC1 under KVM. It runs pretty fast. Sound doesn't work yet and the resolution can't be set to the 1280x800 native yet, but I'm sure the open source community will have those figured out soon.

I look at Alienware as ....

[R.Morton]

over priced pair of shoes anymore they are no better or worse than any other laptop vendor, but some folks just gotta have the whole "Alienware case of coolness" thing going on.

  just amounts to the same parts as Dell, Toshiba, HP, Apple Ect just in a pretty shell.

just like shoes no matter how much you pay for them be it $5.00 or $300.00 they all will wear out at about the same time anymore as most makers of these products out source to the same companies in the same countries.

R.Morton

Re:I look at Alienware as ....

[cbhacking]

Could you please point me at the HP or Apple laptop that comes with ATi RadeonHD 3870 x2 graphics (yes, 2 GPUs)? I'm not aware of any, certainly not for under 2 grand (you have to cut the rest of the specs kind of low, but you can get it for that price in an Alienware laptop, brand new).

Re:I look at Alienware as ....

[Hadlock]

Alienware was cool, when I was 16, in 1998. I wasn't even aware they still existed except for their influence on the "gilled front" look case design. I was convinced they'd dissapeared. Alienware is the cool shiny manufacturer for 16 year-olds whose parents have no problem paying for a "premium" laptop. And then this "article" comes along.

Re:I look at Alienware as ....

[penguinchris]

I admit this is kind of a dumb thing to argue, but I have to agree with the other replier regarding shoes. In my experience, the people who claim more expensive items are no better either 1) have never actually tried the more expensive option, or 2) got burned by what was, in hindsight, an obviously over-priced but "fashionable" item - e.g. Alienware computers...

It *is* true in *most* cases that you get what you pay for. I love finding the best deal, and buying the cheapest thing (heck, I am a grad student, it's what we do). But I can no longer stand the really cheap stuff. If we take shoes for example, I recently used to get the $20-30 Payless shoes and they'd be totally worn out in 4-5 months. I bought *one* pair of New Balance shoes about two years ago - I use them almost every day, and often wear them instead of hiking boots for scrambling up rocks on geology trips, hiking, or whatever, and they're still going strong. Total cost over those two years is less than the several pairs of cheap shoes I would have had to buy, not to mention that these are much nicer and more comfortable (and they *never* squeak, which is what I hate the most about cheap shoes).

Bottom line is, if you do your research and get the *good* expensive stuff, you'll be much, much happier than if you just get whatever's on sale that sort of fits your needs.

Same thing with these easy examples (four Cs and two Fs):
Computers - Thinkpads and even Macs *are* better
Cameras - My Canon 40D *is* better than point-and-shoot cameras that might even have more megapixels
Cars - Up to a certain point, anyway
Clothes - If you don't go just for fashion
Furniture - Wal-Mart ( Ikea ( Hand-Made Fine Oak (less than symbol wouldn't work)
Food - I don't drink but can appreciate the good example of fine wine and more expensive beer

It goes for pretty much everything. Even my $8 mechanical pencil - most would say that's an outrageous price to pay for a pencil, but I've been using the same one for four years or so.

I recently had an argument with someone about this when they tried to claim their cheap item was better than my expensive one, so I already had this formed in my head - sorry :)

Re:I look at Alienware as ....

[R.Morton]

Really, I do not think I mentioned a complete set of specs all I was saying is that Alienware is essentially using thier brand and unique shell and case designs to attain a higher price for a product that will be available from several other vendor offerings.

as you said you have to cut the specs some, but if computers go the way they always do the same thing some one pays $2,000 for now will be half that in 8 mos or so. so why rush to be an early adopter I would rather wait a generation or so for the product to become stable.

If ATI and Nvidia have taught us one thing, it is wait a generation because the first gens usually but not always have some flaws that could bite an early adopter in the ass so to speak.

and as I said it will drop in price and yes believe it or not others will offer it with better specs than what it is now for at least half the price large OEMs can and will prevail in that sense.

R.Morton
 

Re:I look at Alienware as ....

[R.Morton]

No, Don't be sorry you have an OP and I respect that but in my personal experince this is just not the case for me.

Although I tend to just require what is needed to get the job done in my case an $80.00 pair of boots versus a $250.00 pair of Doc Martians which in my line of work died after 2yrs of everyday use.

same with computers that is why to me it makes more sense to get a well known brand of computer at the specs needed to get the job done not an Alienware eye candy cased machine.

specs for my computer are as follows:

Asus Mobo
Intel Quad core CPU
4GB ram
1 TB HDD WD
Nvidia 7800 Graphics card

15" flat panel

built from parts at Microcenter
total cost to me : 600.00

is it the best no, however it will get the job done. and that is all that matters. yeah I could have got a Dell or an HP with the same specs for about 1,700.00 but why ?.

is it better no. and that is all I am saying not every one can afford the best but in most cases the best is some times not the best.

I know that won't make any sense to most folks and my logic seems flawed but these are my personal experinces.

R.Morton

why don't you just

[Anonymous Coward]

get hold of a Smart Bay caddy to connect a second hard drive...from ebay(or newegg).

Um, so?

[Anonymous Coward]

Lots of stolen laptops end up on Ebay. Given that, I can completely understand their concerns.

Re:Um, so?

[earlymon]

No - if their concern is valid, you tell them where you bought the computer, provide serial numbers and so forth, they take any number of actions, including:
1. Working with law enforcement - if the thing was stolen, you're either out or you have a civil case against the thief.
2. Transfer the record to you

You're right to look at the social side of the issue - but go a step further - technology can solve this particular problem.

Re:Um, so?

[residieu]

It's not their problem if the computer is stolen. All this guy wants is to buy some accessories. Alienware's only response should be "Yes, sir. How many would you like? (Can we add fries with that?)" Combatting computer theft is not their job. Just like it's not Autozone's job to check if your car is stolen before they sell you a new oil filter.

Re:Um, so?

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny, I think combating computer theft is, if not their job, an important part of their business.

That's why I can see how Alienware may have their own side of the story. In fact, given the reply posted on the blog, it looks to me that they think it's a warranty issue, so he may well have the problem of communicating poorly with them himself.

Re:Um, so?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see where any of your actions involve technology at all. And while Alienware could undertake these actions, they would not necessarily tell the blogger about the first, and they did tell him about the second.

Privacy is a concern on Alienware's part, and I wouldn't expect them to divulge the details of a criminal investigation or make a change to another customer's records on some random individual.

He should just listen to them instead of bitching on the internets about the the injustice of it all.

Re:Um, so?

[earlymon]

I don't see where any of your actions involve technology at all.

Using computer information systems to track information for use with {branch} a cooperative basis with law enforcement {branch} customer fulfillment.

Privacy is a concern on Alienware's part, and I wouldn't expect them to divulge the details of a criminal investigation

I wouldn't expect that they would. I would expect to hear from law enforcement, however, were I the purchaser or proclaimed owner of what turned out to be reportedly-stolen goods.

or make a change to another customer's records on some random individual.

If I claim that I bought something from you and want the support you once had, I am not a random individual. If I am a valid purchaser (and you should provide your support of the truth of the transaction as part of the transaction) or if I am a thief you should alert law enforcement that you and Alienware know who has your stolen merchandise.

Re:Um, so?

[alienw]

Yes, but the laptop in question has had its serial numbers removed, which only supports the original premise that it was stolen.

Meh, Alienware was dead to me after Dell took over

[Runefox]

Besides, if you're looking for a truly high-end computer and you're not looking to build it yourself (or you're looking for a notebook), Falcon Northwest is one of the best there is, and they've been in the business since 1992. Of course, they're custom-built high-end PC's; They'll cost a pretty penny, and there's no assembly line, so they'll take a week or so to arrive, depending on your order.

It sound shitty, but...

[isa-kuruption]

How are they supposed to know if you bought it or stole it?

Maybe they should have a warranty-transfer process? Like automobiles do? Maybe they already do, the seller just lost the card?

Then again, how do you know the seller didn't steal the laptop? Are you in possession of stolen property?

Again, there is no way for Alienware to know whether your possession of the laptop is legit unless the legit owner notifies them of the transfer.

So I would go back to the seller and tell him/her to resolve the situtation.

Re:It sound shitty, but...

[amiga3D]

It's foolish to assume it's stolen. People sell laptops every day. I don't keep up with paperwork for out of warranty hardware and not all that many other people do either I've noticed. Imagine if you couldn't buy any parts for anything without proving that it's not stolen? I bought a fan for my heatpump condenser just 2 weeks ago. If I had to prove I didn't steal it I'd be screwed.

Re:It sound shitty, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Again, there is no way for Alienware to know whether your possession of the laptop is legit unless the legit owner notifies them of the transfer.

That is why it should be up to the original owner to report the laptop as stolen. Alienware isn't a police agency it's not their responsibility to determine the ownership of a product they are servicing.

Re:It sound shitty, but...

[sjames]

Since they have no way to know or even suspect one way of the other, shouldn't they just sell him the part?

Re:It sound shitty, but...

[icebike]

>Again, there is no way for Alienware to know whether your possession of the laptop is legit unless the legit owner notifies them of the transfer.

Did you ever stop to think that the REAL owner DID report it stolen?

Who says the seller in the present case was in fact the legit owner?

Re:It sound shitty, but...

[icebike]

What if the Legit owner ALREADY reported it as stolen? I've seen no definitive statement that the seller was in fact the legit owner here.

Re:It sound shitty, but...

[sjames]

How would they know? The only ID number they asked for is one that he couldn't find.

The only information they have is the model and that he didn't buy directly from them.

Re:It sound shitty, but...

[harlows_monkeys]

How are they supposed to know if you bought it or stole it?

What business is it of theirs if he bought it or stole it?

Re:It sound shitty, but...

[stonewallred]

Lol, if you did not buy it yourself, you got screwed. And it is a heatpump, hence it is the outside unit, not condenser. A heat pump switches the indoor coil and outdoor coil according to its state(heating or cooling) When heating a heat pump has the condensor indoors and the evaporator out doors, and opposite when cooling. If it is a rheem or rudd, it energizes the reversing valve in heating, 99% of other brands energize the reversing valve in cooling. The tank inside the outdoor unit is an accumulator. protip, cut off your heatpump or AC when you mow around it, helps keep the coil clean. second protip, usually it is the capacitor that goes out, not the fan motor. third protip, OEM capacitors are usually two capacitors sharing a common common. If that is the case, buy the capacitor you need, not a new OEM or aftermarket tyoe that is two in one. You'll save several dollars that way. And just to be an asshole, the freon they charged you$50.00 a pound for, cost around 5 or 6 bucks a pound. HVAC/R and commercial refrigeration is a license to print money.

Re:It sound shitty, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Who gives a shit if it's stolen or not. That doesn't matter. The guy just wants to buy something, it just happens to be for this laptop he bought second hand. Lets assume that it was stolen. How does it affect Alienware? None what so ever. It's not their job to be the police, hell even the police wouldn't assume it was stolen unless your running down the street with it at 2 in the morning. Alienware is is hurting it self 2 fold, first the loss of sales of parts for no good reason, second the bad PR for such stupidity.

Re:It sound shitty, but...

[icebike]

How would they know?

Really, is your imagination so weak that you can't conceive of the REAL customer calling Alienware and telling them that their machine was stolen?

Re:It sound shitty, but...

[sjames]

Certainly not. However, since he did NOT have an ID number to give them, it seems rather unlikely that they would magically know that was the one reported stolen. Form TFA:

- The machine has no serial number on it, no identifying marks (that I can see) of any kind other than the Vista license. The Alienware customized nameplate was removed, as I expected it to be (it would have gone in the trash anyway, most likely).

In any event, if they actually did believe it to be stolen, the only possible chance to recover it would be to tell him it has been reported stolen and hope he's unusually honest (he indicated elsewhere that he CAN get his money back if he has evidence that it's stolen, so it's a real possibility he would get it to it's owner) OR sell him the part and give the police the shipping address he provides.

Refusing to sell him the part does nobody at all any good. That (in)action cannot possibly cause the laptop to be returned to it's owner.

So, the possibilities include: They have some other motive to refuse (but none look like particularly decent behaviors) or they're stupid.

Re:It sound shitty, but...

[Scannerman]

It's foolish to assume it's stolen. People sell laptops every day.

Is this true?

I my experience people keep laptops until they fail (Usually mechanically) and are uneconomic to repair. I know a lot more people who have had laptop stolen or lost than who have sold them...

Re:It sound shitty, but...

[Scannerman]

How are they supposed to know if you bought it or stole it?

What business is it of theirs if he bought it or stole it?

Because any obligation they have is to the guy who BOUGHT it from them.

I've had a dell laptop stolen. I would certainly expect them to try and check anything that they support is legit.

Since this guy says the serial number has been removed I would suggest that the probability it was stolen is close to 100%

Re:It sound shitty, but...

[harlows_monkeys]

Because any obligation they have is to the guy who BOUGHT it from them.

I've had a dell laptop stolen. I would certainly expect them to try and check anything that they support is legit.

But he's not asking for support. He's asking to buy a part.

I don't see why a laptop should be any different than, say, a car or television in this regard. Neither my car company nor my TV company requires me to prove that I own my car or TV before selling me parts. In fact, they don't even require me to have a car or TV.

Dude, you just got DELLED.

[MarkvW]

I bought my wife a Dell. Just after the warranty, the motherboard died. They would not/could not provide a replacement motherboard (their statements were factually inconsistent). I trashed the damn thing and cannibalized some parts.

Dude, you just got Delled.

Re:Dude, you just got DELLED.

[Jesterace]

I ended up getting a Inspiron 9400 with the Geforce GO 7900G. After playing Bioshock the gpu fried. I called Dell and they tried to make me purchase a new LCD screen as they were insistent that was the issue for $500 as I also had no warranty left. (makes me wonder if it's related to the recent nvidia mobile chipset disaster). I could not make them believe it was actually the GPU that fried. So I went on eBay and bought an ATI gpu and got it working again. Glad it had a modular design and a changable gpu. But yeah, I will not buy another Dell either, and by the sounds of this I'd not buy Alienware either.

Re:Dude, you just got DELLED.

[cymen]

If there is one thing I like about Dell laptops it is that eBay is littered with parts for them.

Re:Dude, you just got DELLED.

[painandgreed]

Not too surprising. Dell changes their models a lot and they all seem to be custom made. I work for a hospital that used to buy lots of Dells along with the extended warrantees. Often, when one dies near the end of warrantee, they can't fix it because they don't sell that model any more and have no spare parts for it. They'll then just swap it out for a brand new unit of a similar current model.

Good for Alienware

[Kohath]

This would actually make me more likely to want to buy from them. It's good to know they would be on my side if my computer ever got stolen.

Re:Good for Alienware

[mdwh2]

Yeah, if your computer is ever stolen, the thief will get shitty customer service from Alienware. That'll show him, and make him think twice about doing it again!

Re:Good for Alienware

[icebike]

Mod parent up.

Finally someone who understands the real issue here.

Guy gets sold a stolen lap top. Blames manufacture for failing to be party to his possession of stolen merchandise.

Perhaps it is stolen

[confused one]

Did you consider the possibility that when you gave them the serial number on that laptop that it turned up on their list of computers reported stolen? Did you ask them this?

Re:Perhaps it is stolen

[confused one]

Never mind. I re-read the blog and realize now that they're just being asses.

What gets them big vs What keeps them big

[HangingChad]

Funny that service is one of the things that got Dell to the size they are, then was one of the first things that got shipped off to offshore call centers after they got big. Apparently Dell decided service was the first thing to go at Alienware as well.

That kind of silliness is what got me into building my own hardware. Too bad you can't do that with laptops...or can you?

may actually be stolen

[buddyglass]

Lots of laptops sold on eBay are stolen property. If the one you bought was stolen, then the original owner may have reported it stolen, which means the serial # is in a database that Dell maintains of "hot" laptops. No Dell-authorized repair company will work on them.

To their credit, though, they put the database online so you can see if a serial # is in there. Anyone considering buying a Dell laptop on eBay should look up that laptop's serial number first to see if it's stolen. Caveat Emptor.

Re:may actually be stolen

[Anita Coney]

It may be stolen, but that's not why Dell is refusing service. Dell is refusing service because it wants everyone to buy from them!

Re:may actually be stolen

[atraintocry]

Why should they provide customer service to someone who they don't have on record as a customer?

Re:may actually be stolen

[Anita Coney]

He doesn't really want customer service, he wants to give Dell money and buy a "Smart Bay caddy." Why should it matter where he got the laptop?

Re:may actually be stolen

[rhizome]

Why should they provide customer service to someone who they don't have on record as a customer?

Because they have a Dell product. What other industry behaves the way you allow for Dell?

Re:may actually be stolen

[Xuranova]

Partially related:

You can't buy certain parts to certain Ferraris unless you are documented somewhere in Ferrari's systems as owning the car in question.

Re:may actually be stolen

[Anita Coney]

So? No one is saying that anyone has to sell you anything. No one is saying that any service provider has to provide anyone a service. The reason why this story was posted because it was a complete dick move on the part of Dell. Do they have to sell parts? Nope. Do they have the right to treat potential customers like criminals? Yep. But on the other hand, if we don't want to be dicked around, we can simply avoid Dell buy not buying their products, even their used products. And that's the reason it was posted. This story is a warning to avoid Dell.

If you like being screwed over by corporations... go right ahead. If you like being accused of being a criminal... beg Dell to treat you as such. I choose not to.

Re:may actually be stolen

[Anonymous Coward]

Because he is offering money to buy a product. Dealing with people like that is just good business sense.

Re:may actually be stolen

[atraintocry]

If he's willing to pay for the help then they should provide it. But to me "customer service" means whatever comes with the product in terms of a warranty or built-in support.

I'm sure that in this situation you could find someone who's an authorized dealer who could source the part. But you'll be paying them for their time...which makes you their customer. On the other hand, you wouldn't be a Dell customer unless you bought something from them.

Re:may actually be stolen

[Achromatic1978]

You do realize that said parts are "parts that are likely to be damaged or need replacing in the event of theft", i.e. engine immobilizers, electronic locking systems, ignitions, panels of the body where vehicle identity tags are affixed, and so on. It's not just random "left rear disc brake of F575". They'll happily sell you that if you feel the urge to pay for it, regardless of whether or not you're the registered owner of a Maranello.

Re:may actually be stolen

[fishbowl]

You can't buy certain aircraft parts unless you are the documented owner of a specific airplane. This also has nothing to do with the fact that Dell will only sell to consumers with whom they have an existing business relationship.

Re:may actually be stolen

[Anonymous Coward]

That is how it is with the GNX line of the Buick Grand Nationals. Badge plates and other identifying items are not sold by GM to anyone who doesn't have definite proof they own that type of car.

Re:may actually be stolen

[dissy]

Why should they provide customer service to someone who they don't have on record as a customer?

It isn't service he wants provided. It's sales.

And you do have to make a sale to end up in said records as a customer.

It also sucks to know that if I was running a repair shop for out of warranty computers, if somebody brought in an Alienware system, I wouldn't be able to purchase any but the most generic parts for its repair, unless I had the customer purchase the parts directly and bring those in as well.

But I guess if Alienware considers their hardware to be of a luxury quality, they would assume no one would want anybody except them to service their systems, and for customers to constantly purchase updated hardware from them again.

Re:may actually be stolen

[jadin]

Not sure how much you can trust that database. I helped my cousin buy a refurbished Dell desktop several years ago to save money. It was purchased from Dell's website directly. About a year later she called support for some reason and they claimed it was a stolen machine. I don't remember how she resolved it, but that is some pretty shoddy book-keeping if you ask me.

Re:may actually be stolen

[Anonymous Coward]

It would be helpful if you could link to this database.

A Google search as well as a search on Dell's website turned up nothing for keywords "stolen" and "serial" or "asset tag".

Re:may actually be stolen

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't like to reply to my own post, but I just called Dell Customer Service and they told me that there was no list online of stolen laptops.

In fact, they told me that I would need more than the service tag to determine this information since they would not talk to me at all unless I had both the service tag and the matching account name.

So, if you are planning on buying a laptop off ebay, make sure you ask the person for the asset tag and their full name so that you can call Dell Customer Service to ask if it is stolen.

Re:may actually be stolen

[buddyglass]

Maybe there used to have one but they took it down? I distinctly recall trying to look up the laptop I purchased from eBay in Dell's database.

Mine is almost surely stolen, since the BIOS has been re-flashed with a bogus service tag number. That is to say, Dell's support site couldn't determine the model of my laptop based on its service tag, which it should theoretically be able to do. Also there is no "official" bar-code label on the bottom, so I had to get it from the BIOS.

Some further digging turned up this:

http://support.dell.com/support/topics/global.aspx/support/change_order/tag_transfer?c=us&l=en&s=gen&redirect=1

There is a 800 number at the bottom to call for questions regarding ownership transfer. Presumably if a service tag had been reported stolen, or was bogus, calling that # would bring this to light.

Where is the accusation of theft?

[whoever57]

The blog posting does not show how Alienware made an accusation of theft. The "theft" meme is an invention by the poster. Alienware are quite within their rights to refuse to sell parts to anyone -- although this seems like a very stupid policy. As for the warranty, it is possible that the original warranty requires that the warranty number is provided by the customer, or even that the warranty is not transferable.

All of these actions seem like stupid policies by Alienware, but nowhere is there an accusation of theft from Alienware.

Re:Where is the accusation of theft?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not only that, but since the person in question didn't buy from Alienware, he's not actually their customer.

Re:Where is the accusation of theft?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you refuse to sell things to people, that's right, those people won't be customers.

It's called losing business.

Re:Where is the accusation of theft?

[fishbowl]

>Alienware are quite within their rights to refuse to sell parts to anyone -- although this
>seems like a very stupid policy.

It's a very smart policy but it's not obvious unless you understand it in terms of Supply Chain Management.

If they allowed their spare parts business to be demand driven, it's impossible to forecast it, and it's incredibly wasteful. Their choices are basically to create a whole enterprise that does nothing but manufacture and sell spare parts, or, to plan the spare parts demand while planning the rest of the production.

Knowing a thing or two about the manufacturing supply chain, I can see how it amounts to a competitive advantage for Dell. I can imagine they translate this policy into significant amounts of money. I have no difficulty at all with it, knowing how much my company spends on nuts, bolts, washers, and cotter pins, or rather knowing how much (MUCH) we save by literally micro-managing that stuff. There's another aspect: Selling spare parts to you makes you into their competition on the parts market, even though they are the seller. It's not a matter of competing on price, it's a matter of demand on a finite resource. It doesn't make any sense when you just think about the one hinge/bracket/plastic bit. But when you look at the big picture, it makes a lot of sense.

That's what's going on with Dell. They aren't selling spare parts. They are selling parts for specific units they manufactured, forecasting demand and tracking it, and I'm willing to bet they are measuring returns on that strategy in millions of dollars of waste avoided. Whether or not they call it a kaizen or a Lean thing, that's what it is.

On the other hand, they shouldn't have sales people telling callers they are thieves. I'm also willing to bet a call center operator in Banglore or Manila knows and cares nothing about supply chain management, inventory control, or kaizen manufacturing...

But I'm sure I understand why Dell doesn't just sell parts in an open marketplace. I'd say it was ingenious except that it is a pretty standard practice in many industries.

Re:Where is the accusation of theft?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't get it. Isn't it harder to predict how many of a spare part are needed, if you're trying to base it on how many machines you think are still in the hands of their original owners, rather than how many machines are still in use by anyone?

Re:Where is the accusation of theft?

[fishbowl]

"I don't get it. Isn't it harder to predict how many of a spare part are needed, if you're trying to base it on how many machines you think are still in the hands of their original owners, rather than how many machines are still in use by anyone?"

Those aren't two numbers. They are one in the same. Number of known customers == number of units in service. And by tracking service tickets, they know what breaks. I'm certain there is a serious effort to minimize the number of spare parts on hand, on order, and with active bids, and they are able to accomplish this because they are "servicing units deployed" and not "operating a component exchange."

Expanded to an enterprise the size of Dell, this is an enormous distinction.

Re:Where is the accusation of theft?

[Anonymous Coward]

This isn't a broken part, it's a mounting bracket, an accessory that's needed to use the "smart bay" slot as intended. If you sell a thousand units, and half of all users tend to want this bracket, you can sell 500 of them no matter what. But if by policy you only sell to first owners, the number to stock also depends on the number of first owners who have resold their units, which you rarely find out about and surely is at least as hard to predict as the number of users who will be interested in the feature.

I will never buy another Alienware...

[xaoslaad]

I bought two Alienware computers. One for my wife and one for me. Both being avid gamers, we loved them. I managed to spill water in mine though, and severely damanged it. Of course, this was completely my fault and no reflection of their system.

However, their handling of the replacement is. I shipped the laptop and called a few days later to ensure that they had received it, to which they claimed they had. Two weeks from the time I sent it in I had still heard nothing, so I called them, at which point they claimed to have never received it. I managed to misplace the shipping paperwork I had because I believed the laptop had showed up, etc...

They accused me of lying and having never sent in the laptop until I was able to get replacement paperwork, etc. from the post office. The reality was that they had misplaced it in their shipping warehouse. So after the two week delay I then had to wait 6 more weeks for the out of stock part to come in so that they could replace it.

And so, with prompt service, and considerate customer service like that, who needs anyone else.

Re:I will never buy another Alienware...

[Steneub]

Would you accept someone's word over the phone?

Re:I will never buy another Alienware...

[xaoslaad]

Would you appreciate being called a liar? I'm talking about actually being called a liar here; not them refuting that they received it. They accused me of having never sent the laptop.

They refused to look into it further; no if's and's or but's about it. I was a liar and a thief, and there was no way they could have it.

You know... unless they lost it in their shipping and receiving warehouse...

its like when ford bought jaguar

[Anonymous Coward]

the generic company bought out the suffering high end company... the quality will go down just enough and slide to the back of the pack and the next new thing will take the lead

Chris, you are an idiot drama queen

[santiagodraco]

This guy is an idiot.

First off NO ONE accused him of being a "thief" or a "criminal", that's just his idea of drama.

Secondly they asked him to simply have himself added to the account. Is that so difficult?

Re:Chris, you are an idiot drama queen

[whit3]

This guy is an idiot.

First off NO ONE accused him of being a "thief" or a "criminal", that's just his idea of drama.

It might be that the real issue is just the lookup of the
correct part number. The only way the dealer has
of getting the right part (it might have to be special ordered,
and returns aren't profitable) is to type in the serial
number or registered owner name in the
warranty database application.

There is a lot of stupidity in the world, and treating all
repair/accessory/upgrade transactions as though
it were a warranty parts issue is a very common
kind of stupidity. A bad manufacturer will
require jumps through warranty hoops for every
transaction. It sounds like Alienware doesn't have
a catalog of parts that can be read without lots
of form-fill-out including info (a serial number?)
that this particular user cannot/will not disclose.

Re:Chris, you are an idiot drama queen

[fishbowl]

"It might be that the real issue is just the lookup of the
correct part number."

The real issue is the way Dell's supply chain is managed. They don't manufacture enough spare parts to allow them to be sold to a broader market than their known customers. Their supply chain is not demand-driven, that's waste they've eliminated, and I am sure, measured in millions of dollars a year.

Re:Simple Solution

[MR.Mic]

"Sheeple" is such a useful word.
It instantly lets me know who to not take seriously.

Refusing to sell to non-warranty holder

[wbean]

Nope, I've had the same problem with Dell. I spent the better part of two hours on the phone with various Dell employees on various continents before I found somebody who would sell me the disk caddy for my Dell Workstation. (I am not the original owner.) Even these days their phone bill must have been more than the cost of the plastic part.

Garmin does the same thing

[Anonymous Coward]

This happened to me with a used Garmin GPS that I purchased over ebay (in the original box, by-the-by); The unit had a problem that could only be solved by mailing it back to Garmin for "reconditioning," but Garmin flat-out refused to let me send them the unit and PAY FOR reconditioning, because I was not the owner registered to the serial number.

The purchase had been 14 months prior, and I didn't have any record of who I'd bought it from - Garmin refused to even give me an email address for the original owner so I could contact them and find out (hell, I'd have mailed them the broken unit if they had actually been robbed). Even though I find Garmin products superior to their competitors, I'll buy (new) TomTom from now on...

Re:Simple Solution

[FudRucker]

did you have an alienware laptop stolen from you recently>?

I've got an Alienware...

[SealBeater]

And I have to say, my impression of the company as a whole is that they suck royal balls. I love my laptop, I spoiled myself and got the best m15x money could buy, right? They made a mistake on the nameplate. They refused to even sell me another, they said that they don't offer them as seperate accessories and since I didn't immediately notify them, tough for me. I went out of town the day after I got my laptop, and didnt notice right away. Anyway, long story short, I love my laptop, works great with Linux, but I recommend as a customer that Alienware is one of those, buy it and hope you never have to deal with them companies.

Re:I've got an Alienware...

[phorm]

Did you buy it with Visa? There's a magic work, and it's called "Chargeback," I think the time limit on one ranges from 2-6 months.

Re:I've got an Alienware...

[Anonymous Coward]

Most credit card companies offer chargebacks if the product isn't what you ordered and the retailer isn't satisfactory.

Write the company

[t2000kw]

Write the company and explain your situation. Include copies of your eBay and Pay Pal invoices. Explain that this is not a warranty concern, that you just want to buy the part, you do not expect them to supply it for free. Many times writing a letter will get to the right people and you will get action. It's possible that this could be phrased in a way that your state's attorney general would be interested in sending a letter to them. If you get a negative response, I would pursue that next. Include a copy of your complaint, the original letter to AlienWare, and send an update to the company letting them know that you want this to be investigated as an unfair sales practice (or something like that). If you want to go full guns right away, file your complaint and then send a copy of that with your letter telling them that since they refuse to sell parts that are available for the unit to you, you are pursing legal action against them through your state's attorney general. But I think that the gentler approach might be best, then take further action only if necessary. You might find that someone will give you what you want when they see documentation that you paid for the unit and that it hasn't been reported as stolen.

Re:Write the company

[t2000kw]

I forgot to add that you could instead ask the original owner to make the call and do the transfer of the account (or add you to the account, whatever it is that they wanted you to do.)

Maybe...

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe they just got fed up with people printing 700 page books so no other person can get any print job done. Of course all it takes is for one sane person to cancel the current print job.

Re:Simple Solution

[CarpetShark]

Build your own fucking computer. if you can't do that you could always slit your fucking wrists as you are obviously too fucking stupid to even exist let alone use a fucking computer.

Or smart enough** to understand economies of scale.

** i.e., smarter than yourself, apparently.

Let me get this straight

[meist3r]

Alienware expects each customer to have an "account" in their database for the pieces of hardware they own? There you got it right there. Terrible company. Move on. Hardware is like bacon ... I get it, I use it. It's nobody's business to know what I do with it or if I still own it in an hour. Warranty registration is one thing but this sounds to me like a "customer service" scheme running wild.

Re:Let me get this straight

[socsoc]

I fail to see how it is like bacon. My bacon is very poor at performing processing commands, perhaps I should switch away from this organic stuff.

same with software!

[trum4n]

ever tried to get a driver from those bastards? you cant. we had one at work (computer shop) that we couldn't fix cause alienware wanted us to subscribe to their service plan to fix it.

I call bullshit on your bullshit

[pem]

Even the feds have a statute that relates to felonies:

Misprision of felonies"

I'd like to add

[earnest murderer]

This is pretty much one of many scenario's where people would mock the tin foil hat crowd when they get all hysterical about companies/government keeping too much data on them. In this case in the pursuit of "customer service" (read marketing opportunity) they also get to turn every second hand product (MBA's may translate that to "missed sale") into a ticking time bomb. Forget the warranty, you can't get it fixed at any price.

Sounds like a job for the attorney general and/or the FTC. Not that you can get their attention.

Re:I'd like to add

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I gotta say that my experience with my $2600 Alienware laptop has been "can't get it fixed at any price" even though I bought it directly from them. They pretty much stop selling parts for your computer before it even arrives in your mail. You're lucky if you can even find parts for them, and the AW people have no desire or incentive to help you find them. At least that was my experience. I won't make that mistake again.

Re:I'd like to add

[Anonymous Coward]

A number of other laptop companies sell use the same components/shells as AW (but without the AW price increase). Unless its a bright green piece of plastic or the tacky alien head they stick on their cases, you should be able to get parts that fit.

I dont about the US but Rock Computers in the UK used to use the same cases.

Re:I'd like to add

[Thinboy00]

Sounds like a job for the attorney general and/or the FTC. Not that you can get their attention.

IANAL. You might even claim it's anticompetitive behavior since it interferes with the ability of consumers and used computer stores to do business.

When I get a "really good deal" on eBay.....

[AnAdventurer]

I assume it is stolen. When I buy, say a phone sealed in the blister pack for half what BestBuy charges I am pretty sure it fell off the truck. Its all about where you personally draw the line and your risk threshold. I am not sure I would expect support as the poster did in the same instance. I don't know anything about Alienware, but I would have concerns about buying anything that has a high degree of proprietary fittings on/from Ebay.

Re:When I get a "really good deal" on eBay.....

[toddestan]

When I buy, say a phone sealed in the blister pack for half what BestBuy charges I am pretty sure it fell off the truck.

What are you talking about? There are plenty of reputable retailers that already sell things for half of Best Buy's prices.

Re:When I get a "really good deal" on eBay.....

[AnAdventurer]

Yes, there are Chinese manufacturing plants that do sell some items direct for 1/2 what the item can be bought for and there are a few other ways items can be had at 1/2 price such as being outdated, discontinued, recalled, reported damaged or reported stolen. Of course there are exceptions, but most of those fall under the umbrella statement "fell off the truck". I have worked in retail management as buyer and I have worked in retail manufacturing. That's what I am talking about.

This is normal for Dell

[iCEBaLM]

This is actually Dell's entire process and proceedure. I bought an off lease Dell laptop from a retailer who got it through dfsdirect.ca (dell financial services). The damn thing had a bad fan, so I called up Dell to buy the fan and just replace it myself. They wouldn't sell me the fan because I didn't know the name and address of the original owner.

I'll never buy a Dell anything again.

Oh, nevermind

[pem]

Further reading indicates this is very hard to prosecute, and requires actual attempt at concealment. So, aside from South Carolina or somesuch, you appear to be right :)

Re:Oh, nevermind

[Anonymous Coward]

A little hasty with the incendiary language, weren't we now. (We've all done that at some point)

At any rate, the statute clearly refers to having ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE of a SPECIFIC felony, not just presumption that SOMEBODY must have committed a felony.

Re:Oh, nevermind

[Anonymous Coward]

IAAL - posting anon because I don't want to get conflated with other issues.

Parent poster and thread starter are correct; while specific state statutes may exist, it is generally almost impossible to prosecute.

This is for two reasons: first, "duty to report" statutes tend to have Constitutional issues unless the person is in a 'special relationship with the government' position. This is why a teacher can lose their license for not reporting child abuse, but the neighbors who see the beatings every day cannot be prosecuted.

Second, think about it - if you see a car driving down the street, you have no reasonable means of immediately determining if it is stolen or not. However, by the logic expressed here, you would commit a crime the first time you saw one that turned out to be stolen when it got stopped for a traffic infraction a block later.

We all see things that are illegal every day, even if just traffic offenses or someone jaywalking. The majority of them we don't really realize are illegal, or have no way to know they are illegal. Besides, unless they get paid to do so or there is something in it for them, most Americans don't really give a crap. We've all seen this time and time again - people refuse to help unless they're getting paid!

build your own pc

[Ikyaat]

I looked at alienware when i was going to get a new computer last month and i didn't even see anything remotely worth the cost they were charging. after reading these comments im glad i didn't. Build your own pc, thats what i did, contrary to what some people seem to think it is very easy. just follow this one simple rule: 1. RTFM: read the f*ck*ng manual there now your fully educated on PC building and can save yourself a couple hundred bucks and get a good lesson on how hardware interacts in your machine. Plus as a bonus you can learn all the neat built in functions that your motherboard will no doubt have, and how to use all the software that will come with it.

Re:build your own pc

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

I don't have the care to build a PC anymore. I was in your shoes ten years ago, then I realized that I'd rather be out going to bars, playing poker, or otherwise enjoying my nights rather than obsessing over RAM timing.

Then I bought a mac.

Re:build your own pc

[Khyber]

If you can't get a full system built and perfectly configured in BIOS in less than 20 minutes while blindfolded, you should be turning in your geek card and surrendering that wonderfully low UID.

Re:build your own pc

[fishbowl]

"If you can't get a full system built and perfectly configured in BIOS in less than 20 minutes while blindfolded, you should be turning in your geek card and surrendering that wonderfully low UID."

Even so, you can't get the OS installed any faster than the I/O of the filesystem that holds your ghost image.

Re:build your own pc

[story645]

I'd rather be out going to bars, playing poker, or otherwise enjoying my nights rather than obsessing over RAM timing.

Then I bought a mac.

Once you factor in the time spent picking out configurations (vs. picking out parts), a new build takes about an hour* longer than anything store bought.

*give or take depending on how many boxes you've bought

Re:build your own pc

[Khyber]

Quit using bloated Operating Systems, then?

MenuetOS - 1.4MB in size and usable for most anything except games and audio/video production.

Three second boot-up, if that. No real install time. Full GUI, 64-bit kernel, faster than anything else on the planet, except maybe DOS.

simple answer:

[Ralph Spoilsport]

don't buy stuff built by Alienware.

How Bizzare

[erexx23]

With the costs involved in an Alienware system you would think that it would be been reported stolen immediately to Alienware.
I know I would have... and I have for some Dell laptops that where eventually recovered.
Is also very strange that Dell doesn't have a transfer of ownership program for one of their Premium products
but they do for their average systems.

BSA

[The Rizz]

I still don't understand why businesses let these BSA asshats even into their building. They're not cops, so if they show up at your place you can kick them the fuck out, and if they refuse to leave you can have them arrested.

Some info about the Dell/Alienware policy on this.

[Anonymous Coward]

I worked for an outsourced Technical Support Provider for Dell (and I assume the policies are similar for Alienware, though, AFAIK, their tech support depts are still independent).

This was a constant problem for us. Dell has a policy where, to provide any in depth technical support for a system, you have to be able to provide identifying information about what name the computer's acocunt is under.

I've seen this create and solve problems both ways - we HAVE had situations where this has helped catch stolen computer trafficing rings that were stealing hundreds of thousands of dollars of computers, we HAVE had this help prevent a vengeful ex girlfriend from hacking into her old boyfriends computer - but, most of the time are situations like this were a system simply passed hands several times and was resold.

He likely got some agents that weren't very good at explaining this. When I explain this policy, I state why we have it, and why it's good, but I also stress I am in no way trying to imply that the system we're working on is stolen, and say that this also unfortunately happens to a lot of used and second hand systems.

Anyway, with Dell systems, the solution is to fill out an Ownership Transfer form at support.dell.com, though it can take a few weeks to transfer if you don't know the original owners info (they have to do some background checks just to make sure they're not trnasfering a lost/stolen system).

I have no sympathy.

[bistromath007]

This is your fault for buying Alienware. High end rigs are meant to be built, not bought.

His assertion is unfounded

[gregorio]

Where is Alienware accusing him of owning a stolen computer? There is only one quote at his blog:

The reason we are asking for the system's warranty number is to confirm that you purchased it through our Ebay Outlet Store at http://stores.ebay.com/Alienware-Corporation. Otherwise, we will not be able to provide you with replacements, upgrades, or support for this system.

Where is he being accused of having stolen stuff? Ans more: most manufacturers will not sell you important replacement parts without analysing the machine first and installing the part themselves. Otherwise you can just plug their brand new CPU onto a defective motherboard and ask for your money back when the system fails to work or even worse: when the motherboard fries the CPU.

Sure, that kind of policy does suck, but it has nothing to do with accusing people of stealing shit.

Re:His assertion is unfounded

[CoolCalmChris]

"Unable" in this case really means "unwilling".

If I'm paying that much for a machine, regardless of who I buy it from I expect top flight service and at least a modicum of accountability on the end of the manufacturer. Otherwise, they're basically encouraging people to go with third party hardware...assuming it's actually available, and if not they're opening the door for all kinds of weird hardware hacks.

Re:His assertion is unfounded

[gregorio]

If I'm paying that much for a machine, regardless of who I buy it from I expect top flight service and at least a modicum of accountability on the end of the manufacturer.

Alienware will provide you with that. As long as they are the only ones handling your machine. Otherwise, they can't guarantee a "top flight service". Nerds are the worst kind of customers, as they're always trying to save pennies are extremely vocal and unpolite when in front of honest mistakes. Selling stuff to nerds is just not worth the trouble. This guy was denied a few parts and is now accusing the manufacturer of telling him that he is a thief. Would you do business with this kind?

Otherwise, they're basically encouraging people to go with third party hardware

If you want DIY repairs and cheap parts, you should not buy Alienware. That's a fact. Most people know that.

Re:His assertion is unfounded

[CoolCalmChris]

Alienware will provide you with that. As long as they are the only ones handling your machine. Otherwise, they can't guarantee a "top flight service". Nerds are the worst kind of customers, as they're always trying to save pennies are extremely vocal and unpolite when in front of honest mistakes. Selling stuff to nerds is just not worth the trouble. This guy was denied a few parts and is now accusing the manufacturer of telling him that he is a thief. Would you do business with this kind?

I've never dealt with Alienware, so admittedly I have no point of reference. Since I've only heard one side of this story, I have no idea if Alienware's CSRs are as rude and presumptuous as stated in the blog or whether this guy even tried to be civil after getting turned down the first time. (My guess is that it was a combination of the two.)

If you want DIY repairs and cheap parts, you should not buy Alienware. That's a fact. Most people know that.

Seeing as how I do all of my own repairs and upgrades, I'll keep that in mind.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

A message to Chris

[Anonymous Coward]

Stop being such a child. They won't sell you the parts because you might install them incorrectly and blame them for your own incompetence.

Your laptop might contain defective parts that can damage replacement parts, such as a bad PSU. By the tone of your complaints, I'm pretty sure that you would be crying all over the place about receiving a "damaged replacement part" if your PSU fried a new motherboard. What the hell, you would do it even if you ended up discovering that it was the PSU's fault.

Its not profitable to do business with your kind. If you want your PC to be fixed, buy the parts from the original manufacturer (probably some chinese company) or pay someone else to do it. You can't expect people to trust your diagnosis and accept a huge liability just because you want to save some money with your DIY repair solution.

Alienware Sucks

[cratermoon]

Alienware sucks and has sucked since at least 2005.

Re:Alienware Sucks

[Anonymous Coward]

It's sucked sine before 2005...even when it was a boutique company putting out great hardware they had a bad attitude and no customer service. I ordered a top of the line desktop rig back around 2000-2001 and after 6 weeks on the testing bench to "verify benchmarks" I finally cancelled the order because they couldn't give me a ship date even though when I ordered I was told everything was in stock and the build process would take 2 weeks. When I cancelled the customer rep got very irritated and refused to refund my money and hung up. I had to make a second call to another customer rep who also refused to refund my money but in a much nicer way. I then got transfered to a series of supervisors who eventually apologized and refunded my money by check (which took another 4 weeks) even though I had paid by CC. At that point I just built my own rig. Since then I have pretty much gone to laptops (apple and IBM) for business and don't game anymore but it was an experience that completely put me off of the boutique shops.

I used to work for Dell and

[Anonymous Coward]

We always accepted ownership transfers. The only times we ever gave anybody flack like that was when the machine was listed as stolen or assembled from stolen parts. Sounds to me like the original owner listed the machine as stolen. Which would mean that the ebay seller is not the original owner.

Re:I used to work for Dell and

[shentino]

Either the seller didn't take the same precautions you tried to take, or he scammed you by selling you a machine without transferring the merchandise.

File a complaint against the ebay seller and say that you received defective merchandise.

Defective in the fact that it doesn't work and may even be stolen.

BS; shoes DO differ in quality

[dltaylor]

I have a couple pair of Mephisto, one bought more than ten years ago and one bought more recently (6 years ago?) and I paid ~USD$300 for the second pair. Both pair are regularly used as cubicle wear, and have even seen the underside of my motorcycles' shifter. Absolutely top rate, comfortable, and long-wearing shoes.

It took me a few years to get my wife out of the habit of buying cute, cheap shoes that she only wore for a few hours since they hurt or broke. Now she spends a lot more money on a pair, but she can wear them for a lot longer and her feet don't hurt afterward.

Re:BS; shoes DO differ in quality

[stonewallred]

Real Sperry Topsiders, 24 years old, worn at least a couple of days a week. corcoran jump boots,16" zips, have replaced zips twice, resoled many times got them when I was 15, 25 years ago. Good shoes(or boots) are well worth the price paid.

Re:BS; shoes DO differ in quality

[R.Morton]

Thats just it you have clearly said you use those shoes in a casual setting where as folks like myself "joe sixpack" use them in a more vigerous manner unloading trucks, walking miles at time in a warehouse setting, food service, postal carriers ect.

We are the ones that see the diffrence in shoes and I have owned Doc Martins that cost me a small fortune and they have not lasted me more than 2 yrs tops in my trade as Cable Tech doing installs in all kinds of weather hot, cold, rain and snowy conditions.

where as a $80.00 pair of boots made to same specs as a $250.00 pair of Doc Martins lasted the same amount of time so I can safely stand by my original statment.

R.Morton

Re:BS; shoes DO differ in quality

[R.Morton]

and thats just it, a long time ago quality shoes and boots could be had but in an age where companies are all about faster and cheaper you see more companies going over seas for their goods.

because a company there can get the product made with a lot less effort because workers there will work for a lot less than americans do and they have an abundance of the raw materials to begin with.

why do you think China, Japan, Taiwan, Ect are the numer one leaders in Tech and Automotive sectors ?, and why almost all companies buy from them exclusively ?.

Mod me down I do not care because I have worked for places like Walmart, Kmart, Dillards Ect and I know where and why they Aquire their goods.

R.Morton

Well, you won't make that mistake again

[petes_PoV]

Never having heard (or seen) whatever an "alienware" is, I can't comment on the value side of the debate. However, it does seem that they have far too much business for their own good.

Although any company has the right to not trade with an individual (provided it's not based on illegal discriminatory reasons - just legal discrimination), it's never a good sign for future customers.

Personally, I can't think of any reason to continue owning such a white elephant, it's probably best to dump, or re-sell this thing and get a more mainstream device from a professional business - rather than a fashion accessory from a bunch of prima-donna's

Re:Well, you won't make that mistake again

[socsoc]

If you've never heard of Alienware, I fail to see how your comment has any value at all to the discussion.

find a seller who knows that the value is crap.

[djdavetrouble]

Quite right, I am selling a powerbook g4 with a bad optical drive fror $225 today.
THATS ALL IT IS WORTH. Yet I see the same computer on Craigslist / ebay for much
much more. Lots of people try to pump the value with illegit software installs
(CS4, FINAL CUT PRO!, etc.....), but we all know how much those are worth.

I always found ebay completed auctions are a good measurement for market
value (a tiny bit inflated but pretty accurate). I sell my stuff locally instead
for cash, no shipping, no paypal fees, no ebay fees (they really fckin rape you nowdays).

And, unless your seller can provide original receipt, you should assume it is
a stolen machine.

and lastly : ALIENWARE ?????
cmon now.....

Re:find a seller who knows that the value is crap.

[Anonymous Coward]

assume it's stolen? why? if i end up selling my HP because i can buy something better in the future, why should someone assume i stole it? i've not kept any of the original documentation, and i have no obligation to prove myself.

Re:find a seller who knows that the value is crap.

[enrevanche]

And, unless your seller can provide original receipt, you should assume it is a stolen machine.

Most people are not going to be able to find a receipt for something they bought some time ago. To assume it's stolen is absurd.

Owned by Dell now, hm?

[Zolodoco]

I hope you remembered to buy an extra LCD for that laptop.

Re:monster cable

[koyote-eliot]

Monster Cable has a generous and prompt replacement policy on their cables. I've had a couple of cable returns with them and it was about as hassle free as an RMA can be.

I've also experienced equipment companies assuming that an exchange of ownership meant that the equipment was stolen. Digidesign/Avid tries actively to keep their older systems off the secondary market, and requires a raft of transfer of ownership paperwork to order things like replacement cabling for their systems. Especially vexing when they deliberately used cables with alternate pinouts for their hookups.

Re:Simple Solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow was that really called for? Or do you have such low self esteem you find it uplifting to put down anyone that finds mucking around inside a computer case a little scary. I would bet most of these people have mastered the english language well enough they would not need to use "fucking" twice in a two sentence letter to get their point across. By the way, what was your fucking point?
Signed,Rugmon.

Re:monster cable

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

Monster Cable has a generous and prompt replacement policy on their cables. I've had a couple of cable returns with them and it was about as hassle free as an RMA can be.

Easy to do, when you charge 2-50x what something is worth -- and people happily pay for it.

Imagine that...

[Anonymous Coward]

...unscrupulous people sell stolen goods on ebay. This is news!

Why not?

[bumptious]

Ask the guy you stole it from to buy the bracket for you?

EBAY THIEF!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

quit stealing computers and you won't have this problem anymore....

I concur wholeheartedly

[Anonymous Coward]

I bought an alienware directly from them myself just last year, and I can promise you I will never be going back. They have no sense of customer service to begin with. I dunno why I would even begin to think they'd also keep up with their drivers (it's a laptop, and it seems the video card drivers need to come from the computer manufacturer (so says nvidia's web site).

Utterly worthless company as far as I'm concerned. Now excuse me while I go vent off my new re-arisen anger for them...

Falcon NW

[XanC]

I clicked on your link, and all that's there is a link to "Get Flash". No sale.

Geez

[Anonymous Coward]

when the dealer types the VIN into his computer

It's a vehicle VIN number. Get it right!

Re:Simple Solution

[Veggiesama]

"Sheeple" is such a useful word.
It instantly lets me know who to not take seriously.

That's exactly what a sheeperson would say.

No shirt, no shoes, no service

[NotQuiteReal]

Maybe not the best business practice, but they do have the right to refuse to sell parts for almost any reason*.

* prohibited reasons vary by state.

Re:No shirt, no shoes, no service

[plover]

Whoever dies with the most kids wins!

Regarding your sig, do you mean that in the "parent" sense or in the "school bus driver at a train crossing" sense? :-)

Re:No shirt, no shoes, no service

[NotQuiteReal]

lol

Thanks for pointing out the double entendre, I rarely miss them.

As for my meaning, I'll leave that up to you. It depends on what you think the rules are.

Of course, if your hypothetical bus driver has lots of kids at home, or even close relatives, he might win either way.

Probably a safe assumption...

[Anonymous Coward]

So much of the computer gear on ebay is actually stolen, it's probably a safe assumption on Alienware's part. My company uses a "laptop lojack" system and at least twice a year we track some piece of stolen gear to someone that purchased the item on ebay. Now that the "lojack" system is integrated into the bios, simply reinstalling a new OS doesn't protect the person purchasing the stolen item any longer. Personally, I'll never buy a laptop, phone, or other small, expensive electronic item on ebay.

You don't need the caddy - just the $5 connector

[tomhudson]

The caddy only hold the drive in place - and since it's such a tight fit anyway, you'll find that if you just buy the connector (you can get 2 for $20 pretty much anywhere - even feeBay), you'll be okay.

I ran my 2nd drive in my laptop for months with just the connector. If you're worried about it moving, a piece of electrical tape makes a good shim.

but, they dont sell it

[DaveGod]

You're trying to buy something they don't sell individually. A (admittedly brief) look at their site confirms that. While perhaps it might appear to make business sense for them to sell the part, they don't. Spare parts aren't their business. They aren't doing their customers a disservice, you're not a customer.

To try and get you the part anyway, they're treating it as a warranty/after sales situation, so they need the warranty number. No warranty number, no warranty service. My reading of your blog leaves it unclear if the "thief" thing is wholly your assumption or not. If my interpretation of the situation is true, the CSR quotes fit right in with that, no suggestions of thievery, though perhaps what to them is a bizarre situation has aroused suspicions.

By the way, I doubt it is $150 for a $5 bent bit of metal, the other $145 is for the drive that comes with it.

Apologies if I come across a little negative, phone calls to confused companies are always frustrating. But the whole thing seems rather excessive, a typical forum rant (whether justified or not) that for some reason slashdot (which is whom I'm criticising) considered worthy and reliable on the strength of a blog which can be broken down as follows:

• the first entry (wordpress installation?) on May 5th,
• welcome to my first blog! on Wed 6th,
• big rant against Alienware on Thurs 7th,
• second posting on 7th, Thursday, noting having sent "snotty email to all the email addresses I could find for Alienware Corporate [...] I'll give them until the weekend to respond"
• continuance of the saga on May 8th
• Saturday 9th, post to slashdot.

Re:but, they dont sell it

[Anonymous Coward]

actually it might make business sense for them not to sell the part. The profit margins are probably minimal for them, while the overhead is high.

and yeah, it does seem to be a bit of attention-whoring.

Re:but, they dont sell it

[socsoc]

Not only is the timeline very suspicious, he lost my favor at the snotty e-mail comment.

Impoliteness, disparaging comments about people without a brain and threats about a response deadline or he'll post it somewhere prominent aren't something a considerate and smart consumer would do. A smart person would write a plea for assistance and be courteous about it.

No wonder it's a kdawson story...

Buy the part from Sagernotebooks dot com

[Anonymous Coward]

Depending on what model you have, it's just a rebranded Clevo computer out of Taiwan. Before Dell bought them, that's all they were: a bunch of rebranded Clevo units. Many vendors sell them under many names.

Corporations and stolen laptops

[altinos.com]

A laptop was stolen from our company in August 2008. Two weeks ago, the most recent purchaser acquired it off of eBay and called Panasonic to get tech support when something wasn't working. Panasonic said "That laptop is stolen, please contact this company." We ended up buying it back from this guy for what he paid for it.

Time vs Money

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, many people who make over "xx$/h" are working vastly more than 8hr/day and sleeping much less than 8hr/night. So when you've got 1.5 hours to yourself at the end of a workday, you can choose between playing catch with your kid and building a computer by hand, guess which wins?
It's a question of balancing 2 scarce resources, time and money. Some people have more of one than the other. That $$ isn't wasted, it bought back time to use for something else

Good Grief Alienware

[theatrecade]

i work for a big Multitech company and one of the guys purchased an alienware pc. He then sold it to another tech. The other tech is a Linux guy so he tried to install several versions of it. All versions dropped his dual core to a measily 800Mhz. when he went to the site to find out what was going on, they said there was a bios update for the machine. He tried to sign up the machine to get the update. The website said something like that serial is already registered. he was stuck. he ended up finding the manufactor of the board and downloading their flash. voila golden. but because the guy before him registered the pc not even phone support would help him. When he went to sell the alienware laptop i stayed away from buying it like swine flu. I purchased a used mac instead. He's still stuck with the hardware because nobody can "reregister" the hardware. Big booo for alienware.

Hah, you think that's bad?

[definate]

You think that's bad? A pile of my friends worked for Alienware, specifically he was in customer support which included handling disgruntled customers, taking orders, and trying to find solutions to problems.

He was told "stop putting orders through so quickly" because the contract allows us to charge them and make it later. Sure it takes 6 months for the customer to receive their laptop, but don't worry, people who buy Alienware convince themselves that it's a better product, and worth the wait.

He was told "all of those machines being delivered with problems, tell them it's a problem with the software" because a lot of the laptops were being delivered faulty.

That's just 2 really bad stories.

Although this friend obviously quit and in spectacular fashion, I've several other friends who still work there, and inform me that it's business as usual.

I would never purchase anything from Alienware ever! I don't care if they are selling tissues, they'll find a way to fuck it up!

Re:Simple Solution

[definate]

The term is "Flame On".

Worst, troll, ever.

Can someone translate this to English?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Alienware Refusing Customers As Thieves"

Re:Simple Solution

[harlows_monkeys]

How many laptops have you built?

legal

[Anonymous Coward]

need to bait them into a public forum statement on this so you can claim legal slander.

Wow

[CougMerrik]

Sounds like someone should've figured that out before they bought something they expected support for off ebay.

What a whiner. Take it up with the seller and ebay.

How's this for an horror story for y'all

[joaommp]

http://gunadeluxo.blogspot.com/2009/01/fujitsu-siemens-celsius-h250-and-h270.html

Gave up on that a while ago

[bigtrike]

Ordering the parts and assembling them is the easy part.

You're failing to account for the time spent tracking down issues such as hardware conflicts or other issues. The best case scenario is that you have a spare of every part and your crashes are frequent enough to tell if you fixed the problem.

I use my computer for work, so it's very worthwhile to pay a little extra to be able to send the entire thing back when it starts locking up once every couple days.

Re:Gave up on that a while ago

[DigiShaman]

You know, some people such as myself like building custom PCs. Is it worth the time and money? No. Do I love doing it as a hobby? Hell ya!

FYI, I've had friends purchase the parts, and I would build their PC for them for free. I just love doing it.

Re:Gave up on that a while ago

[toddestan]

Sending the computer in for repair means you'll be without your computer for at least a week or two. Can you survive without your work computer for a week or more? In additon, for something like "locks up once every couple of days" the computer will probably make it through their diagnostics just fine (they don't spend long testing them - certainly not days) and they'll just send it back to you without repairing anything.

I think I'll go with the DIY option and having spare parts on hand, with Micro Center and overnight from Newegg as the backup options.

Find out this..

[Anonymous Coward]

Find out if they're marking you down in their database as a potential thief. Subpoena that database entry on yourself and then sue them for libel.

Get it in writing

[fishbowl]

Let me get that straight. Dell has falsely accused you of a felony -- theft of an Alienware PC.

You should be able to turn that into a comfortable retirement for yourself.

now this is going to hurt

[Anonymous Coward]

alienware wants the old owner to add you as an authorized user - not replace you to the old owner's account.

Lets pretend you have a laptop which you sell on ebay. You add the buyer to your account as an authorized user. The buyer is later arrested for computer related crime(S).

You are now in danger of being arrested as an accomplice. Why? Technically its still your laptop. You enabled a criminal enterprise by allowing that laptop to be used in an illegal manner.

Its not a total loss, maybe you and the buyer can share the same cell upstate.

what a scam...

[Anonymous Coward]

This reminds me of Microsoft trying to prevent people from re-using old copies of Windows from scrapped PCs. Remember folks, it doesn't matter if you acquired the physical product legitimately: everyone is obligated to pay full-price retail for goods. These companies may spew BS about promoting recycling, but that is a LIE.

Miscommunication, fraud, theft or ignorance?

[lpq]

I bought a Dell product for nearly $1000 less than new on the Dell site (the seller supposedly didn't need it or had purchased too many and was willing to take a loss). Deal was on the up-n-up, and Dell wanted (as did I) to transfer the system serial number into my name and note me as the authorized owner.

This has come about because people have too often tended to walk away with hardware that doesn't belong to them, so some responsible companies track who claims to "own" a piece of hardware and that it 'jives' with their established database.

I don't know what weird thing Alienware or the eBay seller has raised in confusion, but the system ownership should be transferred over to you by the seller. Then, as the registered owner of the computer, you shouldn't have a problem.

Is there some problem with the eBay seller NOT wanting to transfer ownership to you for a system that you have supposedly purchased from them?

That sounds like the eBay seller trying to run some scam -- keeping the system in his name while he sells it to you (?). Can't think of why he'd want to do that unless he's trying to use the warrantee on your system to make fraudulent orders for replacement parts or such.

I don't know the particulars of your situation, but assuming Alienware is operating under Dell rules -- they will treat you as a thief unless the system has been transferred by the previous owner, into your name. Is there some problem that you don't want the computer in your name? Or is it that the eBay seller is refusing to sign-over the "deed to the computer"....

Since that's basically what it is -- Dell(Alienware) is making sure you are the registered owner of the product you are ordering parts for. Plain and simple. Any confusion beyond that is either your sellers 'trip', or your reluctance to be acknowledged as 'owner' of a computer that you have purchased. Either way, I strongly doubt Alienware is treating their registered customers as thieves.

Get the ownership of the system transferred and stop whining about how mean Alienware is being. You wouldn't complain if the police stopped you and wondered why you were driving a car that was listed as being owned in someone else's name, would you? Why complain about owning or trying to get service on a computer that hasn't been transferred into your name then?

Re:Miscommunication, fraud, theft or ignorance?

[Vegeta99]

Wait, what? I need to let Dell know I bought a used laptop?

Naw, no thanks. I don't want those morons trying to keep track of who owns MY stuff.

If you think their little idea is good, why don't the dumbasses do it the old-fashioned way and hand out a PIECE OF PAPER?! Hell, let the gummint do it.

I can think of only two things more valuable in my house than my PC: The house itself, and my car. I can't sell either one without letting the government know! I dunno about a house (I'm a damn college student, own a house? yeah right.), but my car has a pretty little blue piece of paper with its VIN and my name and address on it. I can sell my car to you, you can pay me cash, hell, I can write you a bill of sale, but you don't own it until a notary witnesses me write your name on that piece of paper and sign it. PERIOD.

And I'm kind of fine with that. I don't want someone taking my multi-thousand dollar machine from me and then having to prove I own it. However, until the day that states start to require titling of PCs, FUCK OFF. If I call to order an accessory for a machine, it's none of your business who actually owns it. You're in the business of selling PCs, not in determining ownership. That's kind of the government's job, and I'd rather they butt out of it unless I ask for their intervention. In the case of my multi-thousand dollar machine thats only purpose is to move, I'll gladly let them intervene. My laptop? Not so much. Protected by Remington.

Unsolicited advice :-)

[athlon02]

Just some unsolicited advice (not like that happens much on /. ... </sarcasm>):

Treat it like going to a car dealership... If they want to know if you're paying cash or financing before you even test drive the car, politely tell them you'll worry about that later. In the case of the caddy, I'd say I'm considering purchasing one and just want to know more about it and the price. If they want to look up the serial number or anything, remind them that you are just looking and considering at this point. If you like the pitch you can buy one or come back another time and buy one. If they're stupid enough to not want your business, then let them keep their merchandise and lose a sale. As much as I believe in strong morals and ethics in all areas of life, it's a pretty stupid salesman that refuses a sale on a "what if" assumption.

eSATA?

[eggman9713]

Assuming this is a fairly recent computer with SATA, why do you need a frickin bay caddy to add a second hard drive? Ever heard of eSATA?

Re:eSATA?

[Anonymous Coward]

If the guy paid extra for a garish Alienware case for his portable computer, do you think he's inclined to duct tape an eSATA enclosure and power brick to it?

Happening more and more...

[frank_adrian314159]

This is a consequence of less and less of the value in a "hardware product" being the actual hardware. I'm seeing it in the musical "devices" I buy - try getting your Pod reauthorized by Line 6 so you can download firmware updates if you don't have a receipt from a seller. Try to get firmware updates for your second-hand Roland keyboard. Try to get firmware updates for a DVR. My assumption is that before long, if you don't have an official registration for a motherboard or video card, you won't be able to get drivers. The bottom line is that, as more value is found in the software included with the hardware, the hardware device will be treated more and more like licensed software, with all that means for registration, etc. And as this happens, it's no surprise that once sane "hardware" vendors start acting like software vendors with respect to licensing. I don't like it, but it does appear to be the way things are going - car analogies notwithstanding.

Re:Happening more and more...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hardware companies would *LOVE* to have the advantages software companies have. For example:

No need to worry about liability for anything. A product can catch fire and explode, and a customer can't ever win in court because they implicitly agreed to not suing by plugging in the device and turning it on.

Stuff is licensed, not sold. This means that a used device is technically illegal. No need to worry about first sale rights.

You can ship crap and then get patches out if/when you want. This is the norm for virtually all software companies, and hardware companies would love shaving months of their dev cycle sending untested alpha-quality stuff out to paying customers.

Remote kill switches. Someone says your product sucks? Disable it from remote, and they either try to sue you or buy another.

You can add fees. Need more revenue? Charge customers X amount per month even though it wasn't part of the original deal in the first place, and anyone who doesn't pay gets their device killed.

Of course, customers happily buy crap like this and not think twice. This is why Alienware is such a name brand even when there are so many bad stories about their CS.

Huh...?

[yoshi_mon]

I've seen a number of comments in this thread about people, who seem like pretty reasonable geeks (Which I mean as a compliment.), have had or have Alienware PCs.

I just always assumed that those of us in the know knew that something like an Alienware PC would be at best an overpriced custom build basically. The idea that actual geeks were buying them instead of building their own or having someone they knew build them a custom rig makes me a little sad.

Sure there are the Apple geeks...really geeks-lite. ;) And if your in need of a laptop well I don't expect you to build one of those but a desktop PC. Really?

Re:Huh...?

[Vegeta99]

Isn't the poster talking about a laptop? I always kinda figured a DIY laptop was more of a pain-in-the-ass than it was worth, or has that changed? I haven't built a PC in a while, I use a laptop. Building your own isn't feasible these days is it?

Re:Huh...?

[yoshi_mon]

I said as much in my OP.

I however also saw a number of posts where people were clearly talking about desktop PCs.

Re:Simple Solution

[fishbowl]

>Build your own fucking computer.

Well, I can do a certain amount of surface mount soldering, but dense component layouts are beyond my tools (toaster oven). I have no idea how to make multi-layer PC boards. I do have access to a CNC machine shop, but a one-off job for a notebook case would be incredibly costly. I think there are both patents and trade secrets involved in the manufacture of TFT displays, and that's certainly beyond my tools in any case. In the old days I could make ribbon cables but I don't know how to make the new mylar ones.

I could probably build you a decent switching power supply but making it small enough for a notebook computer or efficient enough to not be a space heater, that's beyond my design skill.

On the other hand, if you funded the operation with, say, a hundred million dollars and gave me a couple of years of lead time, I'm sure I could build you a fucking computer.

Was Gonna Buy One...

[cc_pirate]

I want a nice gaming laptop for when I have to be away from my desk, and since they weren't much more expensive than everyone else, was thinking of Alienware, but now... no way in hell am I gonna buy from them.

Dell isn't all bad, OSP

[swehack]

I've worked at Dell support, both client and enterprise, and they're not so bad. Yes, it is usually a bunch of 18 year olds straight out of high school but usually about 50-60% of the team are more than experienced enough to handle the job.

They make mistakes and stuff but they do their best.

The problem is usually Indian support, some of Dell, like the XPS in the past, was out sourced to India and this made Swedes so mad that Dell even allowed Sweden to have XPS support eventually.

I don't know if they'll have Alienware in Sweden, i don't even know if they'll be sold so much here.

Market

[Sir Holo]

So don't buy their products.

Alienware??

[dgm6780]

What does Alienware and Dell have to do with this story? Pretty sure you arent calling Dell. You even said as much in your post, you are dealing with a eBay store. This headline is incorrect and should be fixed

Re:Laptops

[Leynos]

Does the warranty, serial number, etc. matter a damn? He's asking for an ACCESSORY. Not support, not a repair, etc. If a shop asked me for my computers serial number before they would sell me an accessory, I'd tell them to "go fuck themselves" and never return.

I'd strip the warranty number from my computer before selling it too. Just as I'd nuke the hard drive. I'd rather have no personally identifiable information on a machine I'm selling to another party.

Regards,

Leynos

BBB rating

[DigiShaman]

The BBB (Better Business Bureau) gave them a rating of D+. Given that they are a trusted and respected source, I'd say being on their shitlist speaks volumes about Alienware.

Re:BBB rating

[barzok]

Based upon my interaction with the BBB, I neither trust nor respect them.

Re:BBB rating

[DigiShaman]

Ok, you got my attention. What happened?

Sounds just like Dell..

[MBC1977]

This reminds me of my purchase of a Dell Latitude D820 off of eBay (1) because Dell REFUSED to even sell me a Latitude, since I was not considered a "business user" (They tried to get me to purchase an Inspiron instead, which I personally think are junk machines, but thats off topic) and (2) because the eBay listing said the computer had the full 3 year warranty as it was a new Dell. I got the machine and the seller's info and attempted to do a ownership transfer. Had to deploy to Iraq the next week, so I didn't have a real chance of verifying the transfer, computer for reason died, I get in contact with Dell, via email / chat / Segovia IP Phone, no dice. Even though the information was verified TWICE, they still would not honor the warranty. I finally had to get it fixed from a 3rd Party repair center. When a company wants your business and is not willing to work with you or even give you a reasonable alternative, take your money elsewhere. (For the record, while I like Dell products, this will be my very last Dell Laptop).

Say NO to grammar nazis and illiterates!

[Anonymous Coward]

InterNships they are called, my friend.
Could this be the reason, they don't want to pay you?

Badly paid customer service

[Anonymous Coward]

If Dell had just said something like, "We get paid out of the money from warranties, if you can't prove that you have one we're not allowed to help you, sorry."

This would have explained everything, been very unhelpful (but honest) and shown up Dell company policy to be kind of stupid.

Gateway

[Anonymous Coward]

Gateway used to only sell spare parts to customers they invoiced. I mentioned that the computer was a "hand me down", and that they would never have to worry about the person EVER purchasing from Gateway as an "original customer" if the computer he own now could not be repaired. To their credit, Gateway changed their policy.

You're Not Alienware's Customer, But They're Nuts

[reallocate]

Well, you aren't an Alienware customer. You're a customer of the guy who sold you the thing on eBay.

But, unless Alienware can prove you did, in fact, steal it, they ought to be happy to sell you anything you want to buy.

I've never bought anything from Alienware, so maybe they really are stupid enough to sell only to people who have already bought from them. (A bit of a paradox, though.)

It's reasonable for Alienware to refuse free support for used hardware they didn't sell. But it's absurd for them to refuse to sell anything to anyone, period. They could easily sell you that part with the stipulation that they won't support the old hardware unless you buy support.

Even Simpler Solution

[Chysn]

This is all very interesting, and I can see the point-of-view of both sides.

But really, if he buys a bigger hard drive and gets over his fear of dual-booting, then there's no problem in the first place.

Alienware and Rolex.

[bezenek]

Rolex does the same thing Alienware is doing in this story. If you send Rolex a watch which has non-Rolex-made parts, they will confiscate them and charge you for the replacements. Maybe Alienware thinks it is a bit too high up the quality scale to treat their customers like real people. -Todd

points about this guys story

[Anonymous Coward]

First, I do not know if this guy bought a stolen machine or not. I do know from his own statements that there is no identification on the actual machine yet somehow Alienware is saying that he is not the owner of the machine.

Second, I do think that when buying parts for a specialized laptop (or overpriced piece of junk, depending on POV) that a dealer may be interested in proof of ownership. If I go into a ford dealer and get parts for a 2007 mustang, no one checks. If I go into a porsche dealer and get parts for a 2009 boxer, I would not be surprised that they would check ownership since the car is both relatively rare and still under warrenty

Executive E-mail Carpet Bomb

[Anonymous Coward]

I suggest you post this to http://www.consumerist.com and see if anyone there has the e-mail addresses for their top management. Then read about the EECB procedures.

In contrast, Motion Computing

[Squeedle]

A couple of years ago I bought a Motion Computing tablet PC off of eBay, from a seller that was clearly well-established. It didn't come with an install disc, so I e-mailed Motion Computing's customer service, asking if I could please purchase another one. I told them I got it on eBay, and gave them the serial number. They replied within only a few days, and said, just send us your address - we'll send you one for free. And they did so. As a result, I tell people about how accommodating they were every chance I get.

wtf

[Anonymous Coward]

And just what were you using to search the web in the 80's?

The first web browser wasn't invented until the early 90's. Neither was Gopher. And the first search engine, Archie, didn't come until Gopher was in existence. AFAIK there were no search engines for telnet/ftp sites before that.

I think you are just spurting shit just like the guys advising to roll your own laptop.

> You know... I remember in the '80s reminding people to search the 'web when they were trying to find stuff. It was pretty new back then, and we'd have to use our personal dial-up accounts, like as not, but I didn't feel surprised that I had to remind people. (Clever. But not surprised.)

Re:wtf

[fractoid]

And just what were you using to search the web in the 80's?

*** join #chat
> hay guys i need to find a maccas in springdale
fractoid: um, it's down the main street across from quik-ee-mart
> omg tahnks
>/bye

Who cares?

[RazorSharp]

This is Slashdot, everyone here should be smart enough not to buy an Alienware in the first place. Pay twice as much for your computer for a cheap plastic alien decal? Please. Alienwares aren't like Macs where the premium can be justified (I need to run Logic Studio!), you have to be a dumbass to buy an Alienware. So I really don't feel sorry for this guy, odds are that if he didn't get ripped off in the auction, it was stolen. I think it's great when companies that make nothing but junk screw over their consumers in even more obvious ways, hopefully that was less people will buy their crap.

Stupid gets as stupid does

[TheWGP]

If you're stupid enough to buy Alienware - from the company or otherwise - you deserve what you've got coming to you.

That said, it looks like Alienware just wishes there were no Doctrine of First Sale, from the phrasing of their denial.

Just Sue Them

[unixluv]

This controversy has been settled in law for a long time.

"The first-sale doctrine is a limitation on copyright that was recognized by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1908 and subsequently codified in the Copyright Act of 1976, 17 U.S.C. Â 109. The doctrine allows the purchaser to transfer (i.e., sell or give away) a particular lawfully made copy of the copyrighted work without permission once it has been obtained. This means that the copyright holder's rights to control the change of ownership of a particular copy end once that copy is sold, as long as no additional copies are made. This doctrine is also referred to as the "first sale rule" or "exhaustion rule."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

Get a lawyer.

Better car analogy

[godless dave]

Imagine if you went to the parts department at the dealer and asked to buy some brake shoes and pads because you were planning to do the work yourself. They wouldn't run, or ask for, your VIN. They would just sell you the part. That's the situation here. The poster wants to buy a part and install it himself. Most companies - car companies, computer companies, washing machine companies, whatever - would just sell him the part.

Alienware's support

[kendog15]

I own an m9700 Alienware laptop, while powerful, I would never, NEVER buy from alienware again. First off I've had to put new arctic silver on it roughly every 3 months, because the cooling system is a complete failure. To install windows, I MUST have the bottom removed from the laptop for it to stay cool long enough to complete. I am currently using a re-soldered, almost dead AC adapter to power the stupid thing. I bought this directly from alienware, and have an account with them. When I tried to order a new one from them (Less than 2 years after purchasing this laptop new from them), they told me that Li-Shin, the company that makes the AC adapter, no longer manufactured them, and therefore they couldn't help me. I argued with them for awhile and they sent me to 3 websites to buy an AC adapter from a third party. NONE of the sites actually had it. So I found out the M9750's power supply, is identical in ALL the ways that matter, (same volts, same watts, same plug, same or higher amps). But when I asked to purchase the m9750 brick from them, the foreign guy on the other end of the phone said sure just give me a few minutes to process it. About an hour later he came back on the phone and told me he wasn't allowed to sell parts from a different model. I told him it wasn't possible for me to purchase the one for mine because it's supposedly not available. He THEN tried to refer me to those 3 sites I'd gone to previously. I told him I'd already been there, so he said he'd transfer me. I was on hold for a few minutes, then hung up on. When trying to call back, I basically kept getting the same thing. Alienware cares NOTHING about the consumer, my laptop has had more things go wrong with it then any other I've ever purchased, and I can't get any parts for it from alienware. Also when I bought it, I got a dual core processor, and asked them about x64 drivers. They told me they'd be out within the month (2 years ago), guess what, never came out. Just a warning to other slashdot users, NEVER buy from this company from hell. Thank you Dell for completely killing my opinion of your company.

Ebay = not good for expensive, warrantied items

[cyn1c77]

I feel bad for the buyer, but that said, he is definitely a little naive, which is surprising given that he works for Ebay (which I put on par with Alienware in terms of integrity).

Expensive and warrantied items are best purchased from reputable manufactures. Yes, you pay a premium on the price, but you are doing that so that you can have leverage with the company when something breaks.

If you go the second-hand route, you need to call the company first to figure out what you need to do to transfer the warranty OR be willing to deal with zero support.

I think of buying Alienware as buying a Ferrari. You're paying extra because: (1) It's a status symbol, (2) it looks nice, (3) in stock form it is faster than its competitors, (4) but it's going to require more money from the owner to keep it working than a regular car would.

Obvious Solution

[Mojo01010011]

Why not just buy the caddy on ebay like he did the laptop? That way he can match his stolen laptop with a stolen caddy :O

Just Living Up To Their Name

[Anonymous Coward]

It is A-L-I-E-N-ware right! Where they don't build customer loyalty through service - they ALIENATE them by the total experience. Don't worry they'll soon declare an amnesty.

HA HA HA!!! You got Dell'd!

[Anonymous Coward]

That's what you get for buy from that shitty company!

It doesn't matter

[honestmonkey]

What people are missing here is that whether the computer is stolen or not DOESN'T MATTER! That's right! It doesn't matter if they guy bought it from Dell, or Guido down the alley, or killed some old lady and took it from her. NONE OF THAT MATTERS! The conversation with Dell should go like this:

Potential customer: "I need part X"
Dell: "What's your credit card and where do we send the part?"

The guy wants to pay, they should sell. It wouldn't even matter if he DIDN'T EVEN HAVE the FUCKING LAPTOP. Who cares? Why should they care? Sell him the fucking part. They are not cops. They aren't anything but a computer store.

Any business that makes it hard to buy from should very swiftly go out of said business.

I wonder -- Bad PR vs. $150 bucks

[bratwiz]

I wonder if all the bad PR for Alienware this is getting is worth the $150 bucks?

same problem with drivers

[Anonymous Coward]

About 2 years after I bought an alienware laptop I had to reinstall windows and needed to get drivers. I had to call their support line as they did not have their drivers on line. Before they would let me have the drivers, they insisted that i give them some reference numbers of the purchase invoice. took me 4 hours to find, I felt that they were going out of their way to kill the second hand market for their kit.

Left a lasting impression... my current laptop is not an alienware, despite being very happy with their kit. Life is too short to deal with this kind of petty crap

Don't buy alienware

[Dilaudid]

Ok - so Alienware don't know he's not going to use their parts in a stolen computer. So they refuse to sell additional parts, if they cannot verify the buyer owns an alienware pc. The major problem with their approach is that I didn't ask Alienware to try to fight crime. I just expect them to stick to what they are good at - making hardware. I think the real reason they do this is to control their sales channels to protect their oversize margins.

The answer to this is don't buy a new Alienware computer - if nothing else, for the reason that the second hand value will be zero.

been there, done that.

[cynon83]

They did almost the exact same thing to me a few years ago. I sold the machine days later, and will never touch one of their products again.

What if he hadn't purchased it on Ebay?

[CristalShandaLear]

What if someone bought it from the company and gave it to him as gift? Is he still under the same burden to prove it was purchased legally?

IMHO, I feel the company is being ridiculous. Refusing to sell people spare parts and accusing them of being a thief is, at worst, stupid and insulting and at best bound to lose them a customer.

I'm never going to build another machine again

[n7ytd]

I've built many of my machines in the past, and I can safely say that I will never be doing it in the future.

When I was younger with more free time on my hands, I thought nothing of spending hours tracking down all of the components. Then, I would order all of the components from 5-6 different vendors, along with the hassle of tracking shipments and keeping warranty information from each vendor in the case of a problem.

If I were in the market for a new machine today, I would spend about 30 minutes doing some on-line pricing of a prebuilt machine. A Dell.com price is going to meet, beat, or be within a few tens of dollars to the price that I could build it for, that it makes no sense for me to do it myself. Plus, one vendor to call for any problems.

Granted, in the past 10-15 years my expectations from my computers have changed quite a bit. I used to be on the lookout for a great deal on a top-of-the-line gaming machine, but these days just about any reasonable desktop is fine for my needs.

Re:Laptops

[tixxit]

True, but I don't think you would also advertise in the sale that it has "1 year warranty left!" If the seller sold a laptop, advertised it had warranty left, but ripped off the warranty info and didn't transfer it/authorize the buyer, then the seller is at fault. He can't claim ignorance. I would never say something had warranty without at least putting a bit of research into it to determine if warranty can even be transferred. However, the blogger never said if warranty was advertised or not, so who knows.

However, I fail to see why they need warranty or identification information to sell the guy a part. He is not getting his laptop serviced under warranty and is, in fact, paying a huge mark-up on a piece of metal. With Lenovo, I call them up, give them an FRU (part #) and my CC info and a few days later I have a part at my door.

Re:Ignorance, fraud, theft? (Protesting too much)

[lpq]

So you prefer the idea that big government take over this process and implement this on ALL PC's?

Are you an idiot?

Here we have 1 company, Dell, (there are others that sell large numbers to businesses, or sell expensive computer products who do similar), who tries to slow down the theft of laptops and PC's walking away from businesses and people.' You whine (a bit too vociferously, IMO):

I can think of only two things more valuable in my house than my PC: The house itself, and my car. I can't sell either one without letting the government know! I dunno about a house (I'm a damn college student, own a house? yeah right.), but my car has a pretty little blue piece of paper with its VIN and my name and address on it. I can sell my car to you, you can pay me cash, hell, I can write you a bill of sale, but you don't own it until a notary witnesses me write your name on that piece of paper and sign it. PERIOD. And I'm kind of fine with that. I don't want someone taking my multi-thousand dollar machine from me and then having to prove I own it.

So you have your 3rd most valuable piece of equipment, and don't want someone helping to keep it. If someone takes a computer from you, (and Dell wasn't tracking owners), then you would have to prove to the police that you owned the computer. If you couldn't, you've lost your computer - paper or not. But if you are the registered owner, it only works in your favor. You are the owner, and the thief has to prove that that they legally purchased it from you and you have to 'agree' that you legally transferred it to them. How is this a "bad" thing for a legal owner of the PC? Yet you complain like you are the one who has no legal standing. Why is that?

In addition to tracking for the purpose of preventing casual theft, something that has been a growing problem in the business world where employee theft of computers, especially, laptops that are easy to walk out a door with little notice, has been a growing, chronic problem for decades. I'm thinking they may especially be vigilant when a PC bought for 'business purposes' ends up in non-business hands. Inventory control is an automatic service that Dell advertises to businesses. May of their business PC's have built-in low-jack equipment built into the hardware and BIOS, so anytime the computer connects to any public net, if they lo-jacking is enabled (it's optionally enabled by the owner - but once enabled cannot be disabled w/o an onsite- Dell Service Call). Again, a theft deterrent for legal and valid owners that is totally under their control to activate OR not.

If you don't like such protections on a computer, than you might consider buying a cheaper computer that doesn't contain such safe guards. It still may be the case that their less expensive consumer PC's don't have such tracking, but expensive gaming-rigs like Alienware, would probably tend to include the anti-theft options to help control illegal ownership transfers.

The fact that you have such a violent, self-righteous reaction to this services seems to indicate that your are more worried about having to prove you are the owner of a "PC" you have acquired through "unofficial channels" or through some unscrupulous, third-party reseller of Dell goods. If they are selling stolen goods, then you should direct your anger at the seller. If you are knowingly purchasing stolen goods, you are an accessory to the crime. If they are not willing to transfer ownership and remaining warrantee or support contract to you, then they may be attempting fraud (by ordering parts for a PC they no longer own), OR they may be trying to force you to buy all of your addition and replacement parts through them (so they can get a mark-up). Whatever their trip, your anger should be focused at the right party - not at Dell or Alienware who is trying to "do the right thing" without being forced by some government entity. Government steps in when people aren't ethical enough to do the right thing themselves.

Will never buy alienware after hearing this

[xycadium]

I had intended on spending lots of money on several systems for me and my family but now I have changed my mind and will never do business with such a company that acts so unprofessionally. Fuck 'em! I hope they fail miserably, go out of business and all the employees lose their jobs and stay unemployed for years!

Alternately...

[opalosan]

You could always look for the caddy on Ebay =)

Re:Simple Solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Its a stupid computer, just let the guy buy spare parts... grow up dudes....