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Science, Technology, Natural History Museums?
beadfulthings writes "An unexpected windfall has enabled my husband and me to plan a road trip next year. He's expressed a wish to visit some good science, technology, and natural history museums along the way. Of course it's easy to obtain a long list of them via Google, but I'd like some insight and input. What does your area or city in the US or Canada have in the way of science museums? Are they worth traveling to visit? Do you have any particular favorite exhibits or 'must see' recommendations? This man was brought up in Philadelphia and apparently spent most of his boyhood and adolescence at the Franklin Institute and its Fels Planetarium, so I guess that would be his 'gold standard.' I grew up going to the Smithsonian. Any area of science, math, technology, natural history, or even industrial stuff would be fair game. I think we'll probably want to miss out on the 'creation science' stuff."
Yes it's a "Kids" museum, but if you like anything hands on, it's awesome. Even to a 25 year old BSME.
http://www.childrensmuseum.org/
That and the museums in Chicago.
The field museum in Chicago has an exhibit on Pirates (the old-fashioned kind). It's awesome. Go there.
The Saturn 5 exhibit at the National Air and Space Museum in DC is my fave exhibit, but the entire museum is not to be missed. The IMAX theater is great too, unless you get motion sick.
http://www.poi-factory.com/
stephen
I saw the Body Worlds exhibit at the Denver Natural History museum a couple years ago, and I LOVED it! It was so fascinating to see the inner-workings of the human body. It is definitely a must-see... head over to www.bodyworlds.com to see schedule info, as they tour around the world.
Here in Washington, DC. Perhaps you've heard of it?
The Henry Ford museum in Dearborn, Michigan has a large variety of automobile, historical, and industrial/manufacturing exhibits. http://www.thehenryford.org/
Balboa Park in San Diego, CA is a fun destination with several museums.
~ I am logged on, therefore I am.
Washington DC: Holocaust Museum, Smithsonian
Cambridge: MIT museum is really interesting. They have a 12 ft slide rule, and some other curiosities
New York: Natural history museum is really good
I've always been a fan of the huge Van de Graaf generator in the Boston Science Museum. Also they may have a display of flayed people there - I don't remember.
I think we'll probably want to miss out on the 'creation science' stuff
really? i'd think that would be most fun, besides being a wonderful exercise in critical thinking. i'm not an advocate of 'creation science' but to see what their view of the zoological world is would be very interesting.
My sig has been answered.
Chicago Museum of Science and Industry.
Check out The Geek Atlas by John Graham-Cumming.
Kind of important information, IMO.
I live just outside of DC, and as you probably are well aware, there's literally MONTHS worth of things to see/information in the museums here in the metro area.
if you're road tripping from the NE, head for the Southwest. There are more ruins than you can shake a stick at out there.
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The Ontario Science Centre in Toronto, Ontario, Canada is really wicked. It also has new exhibits all the time. However, the Centre tends to have more of a kids focus, although they do have really cool exhibits on that are very adult-oriented like Dr. Gunther von Hagens' Body Worlds exhibition happening this season.
http://www.ontariosciencecentre.ca/
If you make it to the DC area and like the Air & Space museum on the National Mall, take a day to visit the Udvar-Hazy Air & Space museum where they have everything they couldn't fit into the National Mall site. http://www.nasm.si.edu/UdvarHazy/
The American Museum of Natural History (with the Rose Center for Earth and Space and the Hayden Planetarium) in NYC is always a reliable bet. I would definitely put it on a must see list of museums in this country. There is also the Museum of Sex, which you might find interesting.
The Udvar-Hazy Center (Smithsonian Air & Space Annex) is a must see if you're near DC. http://www.nasm.si.edu/UdvarHazy/
Attractions include a space shuttle, a Concorde, an SR-71 Blackbird and hundreds of other aircraft, spacecraft, missiles, engines and so on. Also has a 6-story IMAX.
SciTrek in Atlanta used to be a winner but I hear they closed.
The U of Hawaii telescope at the top of Mauna Kea in Hawaii is a neat thing to go see, but it is only rarely open to the public so schedule carefully. Plus how many places can you drive from sea level to 13,000 feet in just a few hours?
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
Exploratorium in San Francisco
Balboa Park in San Diego
Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago
Kennedy Space Center in Florida
Boston Museum of Science is pretty good, we've gone several times a year since moving to New England.
Denver Museum of Nature and Science has some excellent natural science displays. Great dinosaur exhibit, watch out for that giant pig, a really scary animal.
Yale's Peabody museum has the Zalinger murals, Age of Reptiles and Age of Mammals, which I've always wanted to see in person. I don't know about the rest of the museum, but I bet it's pretty good.
Monterey Bay Aquarium blows the competitors away.
There are *lots* of Indian ruins in New Mexico/Utah area. Drawings on rock walls, cliff dwellings, etc. Have a reliable car and carry some water.
Monument Valley is in northern Arizona, lots of weird rock locations in Utah.
Steve
The Computer History Museum is free and has an unbelievable collection of computer artifacts. It is in the Bay Area, so there are lots of other things you can see in San Francisco, San Jose, etc. I will leave recommendation of those up to others who will certainly chime in.
Here is a link to the museum: http://www.computerhistory.org/
Enjoy your trip!
Todd
Omne ignotum pro magnifico.
New York Hall of Science
http://www.nyscience.org/exhibitions/explore_exhibitions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Hall_of_Science
its on the old world's fair grounds seen in Men in Black. It is one of the few remaining structures from the worlds fair that is still in good repair.
Bring back the old version of slashdot.
Two places in Southeast Michiagan are definately worth a visit. Caranbrook Institute of Science in Birmingham, small but well put together scinece museum and the magnificent Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn. The Henry Ford has the best car collection anywhere as well as a great history of technolgy collection. If you like you can do the Greenfiled Village next door and see what daily life and technolgy were like at the turn of the 20th century. The Detroit Science center is just OK but the nearby Detroit Art Museum is great. BTW I also endorse the recomendation of the Field in Chicago... First rate.
The ROM (in Toronto) is quite good for natural history/anthropology. Some nice dinosaurs, etc., good exhibits on various world cultures, and right now they have the Dead Sea Scrolls on loan. Plus, the Ontario Science Centre isn't far and is also fun.
Chicago is an excellent destination for museums. The Museum of Science and Industry would be along the lines of the Franklin Institue, Field Museum is good for natural history, Shedd's Aquarium is alright, you can even check out the Art Institute if you decide the right side of your brains need some stimulation.
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As I am ore interested in technology, I have visited NASA Houston and Cape Canaveral. Though the displays are often very kiddie centered, seeing the original mission control is worth the trip. As long one is in Houston, the Museum of Health is worth a trip, as well as the other 5-10 museums in the area. One of the best is the Menil Collection which is a testement to the social value of oil money. The Menil is a collection of several indoor and outdoor exhibitions.
I would also recommend the Bradbury Science Museum in Los Alamos, yes the Los Alamos National Laboratory, and the National Museum of Nuclear Science & History in Albuquerque. It has artifacts I have not seen elsewhere, such as fully reconstructed planes and missles. Way cool. Of course, the Trinity site is also a museum piece, though I have never been able to make it. It is only open twice a year.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
Then go see the Science Museum of Minnesota in Minneapolis. I've been there numerous times ever since I was a kid, all the way through adulthood. Loved it every time.
I would also recommend the Field Museum in Chicago, but first see the Museum of Science and Industry. C'mon they have a German U505 sub! I just got a chance to visit the Bradbury Science Museum in Los Alamos NM and would highly recommend it--if your interest extends to nuclear physics. The museum is somewhat small, but Fat Man and Little Boy replicas were interesting. Seeing the bombs in person made them seem more "real" to me. I always imagined them much bigger. Los Alamos itself is very unique in many ways.
It's a museum for people who enjoy thinking about museums.
http://www.mjt.org/
The longer you're there, the more you'll realize that what's on display isn't the point, but HOW it's displayed. Also, they have a tea room upstairs that serves "real" tea, cookies, and occasionally live accordion music.
+1 The Chicago Museum of Science and Industry has several one-of-a-kind exhibits, including a German submarine, a simulated coal mine, and an incredible art-deco streamline modern train.
The Mutter Museum is right in downtown Philly, you should check it out before you leave or when you get back.
It's chock full of medical curiosities. I think it is affiliated with the University of Pennsylvania. A must see.
They even have a museum of people who used to go to museums. Make sure you're out before closing time.
which is totally what she said
Once you've figured out where and when, don't forget to check for lectures and special events at the places you're visiting. They may not be as heavily publicized as the "normal" exhibitions. I live in Manhattan and regularly attend evening events and lectures and the Natural History museum here. A few months ago I saw the Phil Plait (the Bad Astronomer) there. Last week I went to a digital universe presentation in the on motion of bodies in space. Who knows, you may get lucky and see something great.
Chicago does have the Museum of Science and Industry, but also houses the Field Museum, Adler Planetarium, and the Shedd Aquarium. While it seems that this would be less interesting, it's worth mentioning the Chicago Art Institute too. All of these museums are fairly close to each other (with the exception of the Museum of Science and Industry).
âoeItâ(TM)s a funny thing about life; if you refuse to accept anything but the best, you very often get it."
Ontatio: The ROM (Royal Ontatrio Museum) -Toronto http://www.rom.on.ca/
The Science Center -Toronto http://www.ontariosciencecentre.ca/
Science North -Sudbury http://www2.sciencenorth.ca/
Alberta has The Royal Tyrell Museum of Palentolgy (which may still have day trips in to the bad lands to active dig sites where you get to help). http://www.tyrrellmuseum.com/
My two favorites are the American Museum of Natural History in NYC and the Mutter Museum in Philadelphia.
The AMNH is enormous; you could easily spend an entire day there, and you'd be hard-pressed to see everything in detail. It has the best dinosaur and primate sections I've ever seen.
The Mutter is just plain cool: a museum devoted to medical oddities, like the skeleton(s) of Cheng & Eng, the 'Siamese twins'. As a PhD-wielding developmental biologist and geneticist I was happy to see some medical information on the various diseases or developmental problems that are on display. Sadly, you cannot take photos; they prefer you purchase their (expensive) photo book.
There was a Geek Atlas review posted very recently, try that.
Washington D.C. = Smithsonian Institution - Natural History Museum
NewYork = Can't remember, but good museums
San Diego = Balboa Park
Baltimore = Baltimore Aquarium
Liberty Science Center in Jersey is pretty decent, and has the advantage of being right near the Statue so you can do that too.
If you're aviation/space types, I recommend the Air Force Museum in Ohio.
http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/exhibits/
There's also the NASA sites - Houston and Canaveral both have extensive places to walk around and see things.
I wish there was a choice that said "Factually Wrong -1" when I mod.
The Oregon Museum of Science and Industry is incredible. I go there every time I visit Portland. I put it ahead of any technology museums in the surrounding states, including my native California.
The wheel is turning, but the hamster is dead.
I second the Computer History Museum, Mountain View, California.
Everything from a working Difference Engine to the Crays and Connection Machines that we kids dreamed about in the 80s. A fully-functional PDP-1; it still plays Slug Russel's "Space War". Within an hour's drive of anywhere in the Bay Area.
I'll see your computers and raise you some nukes. Next time you're in Vegas for some trade show or conference, take a day and see the Atomic Testing Museum, Las Vegas, Nevada.
Thankfully, there's nothing fully-functional here, but there lots of fascinating artifacts nonetheless. Everything from Einstein's letter to Roosevelt, to bits and pieces of a NERVA nuclear rocket prototype, to engineers' notebooks filled with humorous mementos of projects they'd worked on, to Doc Edgerton's impossibly-fast cameras. Within a 10 minute cab ride from the Strip.
Although both museums have material suitable for laypeople and/or children, they're targeted primarily at adults with engineering backgrounds. Expect to spend at least 3 hours at each of 'em.
Nukes are pretty cool, but you can have a lot more fun with a bunch of used pinball machine parts. And everything is fully functional in the Pinball Hall of Fame. Hey, you're already in Vegas -- flashing lights and wacky sounds are what it's all about. You won't need a DeLorean to go back in time, and it'll cost a lot less per hour than the blackjack tables.
In Saint Louis county Missouri is the Museum of Transport with lots of trains, streetcars, autos. Kids love it. http://transportmuseumassociation.org/
Maybe it's because I grew up there, but I've always had a soft spot for Cincinnati's Union Terminal. It's a collection of museums: they have a Children's Museum in the basement (lots of fun with balls, water, and a nice big tree-like playground thingy), a Cincinnati Historical Society Museum (starts with a giant miniature recreation of Cincinnati, lots of WWII history, and includes a full-size recreation of Cincinnati's steamboat days), and a Natural History Museum (some very excellent versions of pretty standard exhibits, including a very nice walk-through cave, walk-through glacier, and some neat human-body exhibits designed for kids (but that I find fun nevertheless)). And, of course, there's the full-on old-style spherical OmniMAX theatre that just can't be beat for giving you vertigo. Add to all that the fact that Union Terminal itself is pretty interesting---it's an old train station with huge murals and an enormous lobby.
I'm not saying it's the greatest museum ever; but it's well-done, has three museums in a single building, and I always have a good time when I go.
If you want to see real museums go to Europe. The US has been around only a very short time. Londons museums are huge. You will need a week to skim each one. La Louvre in Paris is on many floors, and each wing is well in excess of a mile. Museums in Europe have stuff going back millenia, not just 200 years or so.
Bear in mind the Europeans helped themselves to other countries treasures in days of empire. Even European cities go back in many cases to Roman times.
Just suggesting that the world is not just the US.
Phil
-Boeing Museum in Seattle http://www.museumofflight.org/
Fairly small, but has a lot of early pioneer planes hanging there.
-Evergreen Aviation Museum in McMinville Oregon (About 1 hr south of Portland)
http://www.sprucegoose.org/ (It houses Howard Hughes' famed 'Spruce Goose'... you'll never understand just how huge that puppy is until you're nose-to-nose with it.)
If you pass San Antonio, visit the Witte Museum. They tend to get the major touring exhibits (the plastinated Human Body exhibits, animatronic dinosaurs, Egyptian artifacts/mummies).
If you pass Denver, stop by their natural history museum (and their zoo too, if you have the time). I was only there for a week on business once, but made it a point to visit both. It was well worth it.
Another vote for Deutsches Museum. Awesome place - easily a two day trip by itself.
I have a photo of me standing inside the core of a CRAY-1, and another standing next to the operator console of a System 360.
Check their operating times before going -- if I recall correctly, they tend to close on religious holidays (ehh, Bavaria!)
Chip H.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I used to work at the Franklin Institute, so my recommendations are based on that. I'd like to say that while I love the American Museum of Natural History in New York, it doesn't have the same kind of interactivity. The Exploratorium in San Francisco does, although I don't remember it being as large at the Franklin Institute. It did have some very cool unique exhibits I hadn't seen elsewhere. I quite liked the Boston Museum of Science - very similar to the Franklin Institute in many ways, so your husband may like it a lot. The Liberty Science Center in New Jersey was opened by ex-Franklin Instituters, I believe, but the last time I went (admittedly, something like nine years ago), many of the exhibits were in terrible disrepair.
The American Museum of Natural History of course, the NJ State Aquarium - excellent main tank, cool jelly-fish and some of the few dragon fish in captivity (it's in Camden, so watch your step!) and the Edison Museum.
When It Counts.
I have no idea if its still there, but the American History Museum in DC had an Information Age exhibit that was there for at least 8 years... started with an exhibit where you could speak over the actual wire Bell used for his first phone, through pieces of eniac, other huge bohemoth computers, an Enigma (cipher machine from WWII), A TRS-80 Model 1, An Apple I, through modern computers, and ending ith HDTV exhibit (before HDTV was commonly available). I loved that exhibit.
You just missed the Adventures of Al's Brain in 3D at the Orange County, California Fair. http://www.alsbrain.com/weird/index.html
You can see a you tube video of it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OyljwuuJ58
Like the beaver, it's just Dam one thing after another
Okay, fair enough question to ask. But there is a stipulation that you want to avoid "creationist museums" is exactly the same as an avid follower of fox news refusing to accept the BBC as a valid authority for no reason other than "I don't believe that."
As for me? I expose myself to every input, at every venue I possibly can. Whether I disagree with the source is another matter, but *ignoring* the source is tantamount to saying that "I have made up my mind, and I believe your opinions are of utter disinterest."
Personally, I may not agree with the person I am talking to/hearing from, but "communication" is worthless if you choose to ignore the other person/people.
Communication is little more than the exchange of ideas, and lots of ideas are ones with which you will disagree. However, by ignoring this input, you are no better than those who do the same. You have already made up your mind, I do not think that being brainwashed is a legitimate fear. Be the bigger man. That's all I have to say about that.
National Air Force Museum, Dayton, Ohio. Everything from a Wright Flyer to a Mach 3 XB-70 Valkyre and all in between.
Pacifist paratroopers yell, "Ghandi!" when they jump.
Sam Noble Museum of Natural History in Norman (OU Campus)
The National Cowboy & Western Heritage Museum
The Oklahoma City National Memorial and museum about bombing
45th Infantry Division Museum - lots of good WWII stuff
Oklahoma Railway Museum if you like old trains, and
The Red Earth Museum with Native American traditional and contemporary culture and arts
There's more, just use google maps!
Come on by! Bring money and spend it!
Chaos maximizes locally around me.
They even have a nice virtual tour: http://www.ontariosciencecentre.ca/tour/default.asp
--- http://www.astroturtle.com
I would highly recommend the Cradle of Aviation Museum on Long Island. Lots of early aircraft (the museum is on the site of the old Roosevelt Field where Lindbergh took off from), and extensive artifacts from LI aerospace manufacturers, including 2 Apollo lunar modules donated by Grumman.
http://www.cradleofaviation.org/
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Many science and technology museums belong to an organization that allows for discounts on admissions for all the museums. Frequently making entry free.
Just because you can, does not mean you should.
Fantastic museum, and almost worth the airfare. I did not get nearly enough time there.
---
ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
I too grew up at the Franklin Institute, but it went downhill. They took out the cool mechanics room and replaced it with the dumb sports exhibit. I've heard they also took out the math exhibit and replaced it was god knows what. At least the giant heart is still there. Here's my experience with other museums (not really organized) : The Franklin Institute used to rank above the other US science museums I've seen (San Francisco, Cleveland, and Boston), which are all good too (although I'm not sure how I'd rank them -- it's been a while since I've been to them).
However, the ultimate science and technology museum is in Munich Germany -- the Deutsches Museum. You can easily spend several days there -- it covers everything (it even has one of Ben Franklin's glass harmonica's, along with everything else the Franklin Institute has...)
As for natural history museums, I've only seen two. The Philadelphia natural history museum is good, but is on the small side. The natural history museum in New York is huge -- definitely go there (and see the attached Hayden Planetarium, if for no other reason that to hear Neil deGrasse Tyson narrate.)
The Smithsonian is a great technology museum -- you know it's worth visiting. The MIT museum in Boston is small, but has some very interesting stuff (from robots to sculpture).
As an airplane nut I really enjoyed the Air Force Museum (http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/). We had originally planned to stay one day but ended up staying two. And make sure to sign up to see and tour the retired Air Force Ones that they have in a separate hangar (along with experimental prototype planes like the X-1).
Also while in Dayton, check out the Wright Brother's Bicycle Shop!
The more you regulate a company, the worse its products become.
The Boingboing discussion of "Geek Atlas: 128 nerdy must-sees and an education in science, technology and geek history" describes a good reference.
I can recommend the The American Museum of Radio and Electricity in Bellingham, Washington. My daughter and I dropped by for an hour and found ourselves staying until closing time.
You didn't specify continent, so:
http://www.deutsches-museum.de/
While others have mentioned both the Field Museum and the Museum of Science and Industry, it should be noted that they are co-located with the (also excellent) Shedd Aquarium and Adler Planetarium. Not far away is the world-class Art Institute of Chicago. Much of this is the legacy of the 1893 Chicago World Fair, and in terms of density of world-class museums, is more bang for your time and dollar that you'll get anywhere outside of Washington DC (Smithsonian, etc) and perhaps London. You can get a multi-day pass to all of these museums for anywhere from about $70/person, and it is well worth it.
Try the National Naval Aviation Museum, Pensacola NAS, Pensacola, Florida. Allow two days. (www.navalaviationmuseum.org)
If your trip brings you out to the West Coast, be sure and spend a day at Exposition Park. The Museum of Natural History there has, among other things, some great dinosaur exhibits. And, of course, there's the California Science Center, the best hands-on science museum in the West.
Good, inexpensive web hosting
If you can find your way to Hilo, on the Big Island of Hawaii, we have:
- 'Imiloa Astronomy Center of Hawaii - first planetarium in the world to have full-dome 3D projection. It's a bit of an unusual place as the exhibit space deals both with astronomy and Hawaiian culture (yes, the signage is bilingual.)
- Mauna Kea Observatories and the Ellison Onizuka Center for International Astronomy's visitor station - rent a 4WD and catch a free tour of something extremely large and shiny. Weekends, it's the 10-meter Keck I telescope, tour meets at the visitor station at 1pm; weekdays, Japan's 8-meter Subaru telescope* offers tours; reserve yours on www.subarutelescope.org. After the tour, hang around the visitor station at 9200 feet for stargazing.
- Hawaii Volcanoes National Park - active volcanoes, of course. 28 miles south of Hilo.
- NOAA's Mauna Loa Observatory, where they've done the atmospheric CO2 measurements for many years. www.mlo.noaa.gov has info on viisting.
Those are the first few things that come to mind... Hilo also has the base facilities for the CalTech Submillimeter Observatory, Gemini North, UK Infrared Telescope, James Clerk Maxwell Telescope, Subaru Telescope, NASA Infra-Red Telescope Facility, Harvard-Smithsonian Submillimeter Array and the UH 2.2-meter telescope, and NOAA's (small) Mokupapapa educational center about the Northwest Hawaiian Islands National Monument; Waimea (north part of the island) has the Keck and Canada-France-Hawaii base facilities. Kona side has the Natural Energy Laboratory of Hawaii (NELHA); I haven't been there.
If you have any marine geeks, we have snorkeling; plant geeks we have rainforests; avian geeks we have hard-to-find endemic native birds... life is like one long natural-sciences field trip here.
*which I call "work"
Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
The Toronto Museum of Science and Technology had a 40 foot long CO2 laser and a lens made of NaCl back around 1977 or so. Their demonstration of focused laser light to write the name of the presenter in a sheet of glass (it was vaporized instantly!) and burn through a firebrick in about 3 seconds was almost topped by the Argon laser that could pop a red balloon inside of a clear balloon in the same way eye surgery could be done with an argon laser. I remember the floor space of the museum was huge (I was about 15). I've always wanted to go back.
The Museum of Science in Boston is the best one I've been to. http://www.mos.org/
they have some really good exhibits showing documented evidence which supports the Creationist view.
What? There's evidence that a superbeing created the universe? If that were indeed true, the discover(s) would be a shoe-in for a Nobel Prize.
Trolling is a art,
As for me? I expose myself to every input, at every venue I possibly can. Whether I disagree with the source is another matter, but *ignoring* the source is tantamount to saying that "I have made up my mind, and I believe your opinions are of utter disinterest."
It is perfectly ok to make up your mind at some point, and once you realize that creationism is meaningless drivel you really don't need to expose yourself to it again and again and again in the faint hope that it might all somehow make sense one day. Isn't that the definition of madness, doing the same thing over and over again in the hope of a different outcome?
Besides, you go on a roadtrip to have fun, not to be subjected to endless fundamentalist stupidity. I'd say skipping creationism-oriented museums is a perfectly valid approach.
It's from Futurama:
[after being kicked out of a theme park]
Bender: Yeah, well... I'm gonna go build my own theme park, with blackjack and hookers. In fact, forget the park!
[after being kicked out of the lunar lander]
Bender: Oh, no room for Bender, huh? Fine! I'll go build my own lunar lander, with blackjack and hookers. In fact, forget the lunar lander and the blackjack. Ahh, screw the whole thing!
The submitter didn't tell us what the intended route for the road trip was, so that makes it kind of hard to suggest what might be along the way.
For example, if you are going to go through Idaho, you should see EBR-1, the first breeder reactor and the first reactor to make electrical power.
If you are passing through Oklahoma City, you'd likely want to stop off at the Omniplex.
If you are passing through Socorro, NM, you'd need to see The Very Large Array.
How about you give us a bit of an idea of the route you are taking?
www.eFax.com are spammers
but the tour of the generator room at the Hoover Dam is impressive. And road-tripping there gives many opportunities for further fun. Also: tour of the Trinity Site, outside Alamogordo, NM (check schedule); Museum of Science, Boston -- I still love the van de Graaff generator (if you go, the MIT Museum and the Harvard Museum of Natural History are worth visits as well); tour of the VLA, "near" Socorro, NM; California Academy of Sciences, San Francisco.
The Rose Center for Earth and Space (attached to the Natural History museum) has an awesome collection of photos and a really great "Scales of the Universe" exhibit. It starts with subatomic particles and, 400 feet later, jumping an order of magnitude every 10 or so feet, ends with the size of the known universe. It uses the sphere of the planetarium itself as a reference point, Check it out: http://www.amnh.org/rose/scales-moreinfo.html
That's a ridiculous argument.
In my 43 years I've never believed in a god or gods. (My parents must have raised me properly!) Would my time be better spent going to a museum/science exhibition to learn something or going to churches, synagogues, mosques, cult retreats, etc. to have supernatural woo-woo fed to me?
Going to the religious bits wouldn't make me a "bigger man", it'd make me a "man wasting his time".
Trolling is a art,
Agreed. I used to hear about the whale, and I was like "great, it's a life-sized model of a blue whale. I get it. It's big. Why is that so exciting?"
Then, of course, I walked into the room, and as soon as I could pick my jaw up off of the ground, I said "holy fuck". I hope I said it quietly enough that the little kids around me couldn't hear, but that was my reaction.
It is a life sized blue whale, and it is bigger than you can possibly imagine.
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Flagstaff: Museum of Northern Arizona is excellent for local geology (Grand Canyon vicinity, dinosaurs) and Native American archaeology, arts and crafts, etc www.musnaz.org Phoenix: The Heard museum (Native American stuff) is absolutely top notch! www.heard.org And Tucson's Arizona-Sonora Desert Museum if fantastic! www.desertmuseum.org If I were doing your trip, I'd also catch some caves along the way. In Arizona, that would be Karchner Caverns (you might want to make an advance reservation, however)
The World War One museum in Kansas City is first rate. They make the causes of the war, and the technology used very interesting and easy to understand, and with a depth that will give you hours of stuff to read about. Even if you have little to no interest in history, you will like this place for an hour or two visit. Their interactive trench exhibits really do make you feel like you're there. Liberty Memorial Museum
The sending of this message pretty much inconveniences everyone involved.
Its so cool, I don't know if I will tell you about it. You should pay me $10 to tell you. My 8 year old son said, "that was the best day of my life". I am serious. You will never find it, and I won't describe it, because I would never do it justice. Ask me and I may tell you. (I dont want it crowded/slashdotted!!!!) I have been to tons of lame science centers and while they are fun, this is a whole new level. Like discovering Pluto.
wear flowers in your hair, and visit:
Exploratorium. This is the original hands on museum.
The Golden Gate Park: Strybing Arboretum, Beautiful, stunning diversity, reminder of what that giant ball in the sky is for... oh and, ummm.... Biological Studies.
California Academy of Science is nice too, as is the DeYoung.
Over the bridge in Berkley is the Lawrence Hall of Science. I remember spending a little time with Liza there on a Pdp-11!
Chabot Space and Science Observatory is a great little place to study the stars.
Shockly's Semiconductor Labratory is also nearby: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shockley_Semiconductor_Laboratory. Not much to see, but Palo Alto is a mecca of technology.
and of course, the Computer History Museum.
http://www.computerhistory.org/about/
Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
Wright-Patterson air force base museum in Dayton OH is great!
Growing up we used to visit the museum 2 or 3 times a year. There is lots and lots of information. There is everything from the history of flight to the latest fighters. You can see the planes, read the history, touch and walk around the planes and jets. There are explanations of the technology from the wright brothers through the stealth planes.
Did you know that we refuel helocopters mid flight?! Have you see an atomic bomb? A B-52? A retired Airforce 1? A space capsule? A glider used by the US in Korea?
There is enough information to occupy 4 days. I last about 6 hours on a trip; 3 hours, eat, 3 hours, drive home.
I've been disappointed by the Smithsonian and Chicago Museum of Science & Industry, because they are tailored to people who aren't techies. I grew up in a science oriented family (we read the encylcopedias for fun kind of family) and always learn something new when I visit WrightPat.
Joe Batt
Joe Batt Solid Design
they have some really good exhibits showing documented evidence which supports the Creationist view.
Unless you're actually claiming that there's evidence that snakes didn't have venom until a few thousand years ago:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/scalzi/1970009866/in/set-72157603091357751/
MOSI - Tampa, FL
Great Explorations - Saint Petersburg, FL
Sunken Gardens - Saint Petersburg, FL
Growing up in Florida, I used to go to MOSI (http://www.mosi.org/index.html) and Great Explorations (http://www.greatexplorations.org/index.php) all the time.
I've heard that MOSI has gone downhill a bit, though I haven't been in a while (not since they first got their IMAX theater about 15 years ago).
Great Explorations is a kid's museum, but *any* geek would have a good time there, regardless of age. They used to do summer camps, bringing in all kinds of animals, field trips out to the beaches, random activities like learning ASL. If you've got kids, they'll love it.
Sunken Gardens is a botanical museum. It has kind of an interesting history to it as well. It is right next to Great Explorations, too (the new Great Explorations building is the old Sunken Gardens gift shop, which was originally a Coca-Cola bottling plant). Not very impressive during the winter, but late spring to late autumn it is gorgeous.
Much as I hate to say it, I gotta agree with a previous poster about Kennedy Space Center. Growing up in Florida, having friends at NASA and working for a retired astronaut, I've been to that place more times than I care to count. Even in the off-season, it's still way too crowded for my tastes.
I can't believe nobody mentioned Los Angeles as far as I can tell! These are some of my favorite museums in the area (and there are many, many more) Griffith Park Observatory LA Natural History Museum CA Museum of Science and Industry Southwest (Indian) Museum Getty Center
The National Museum of the US Air Force is worth a look if you're passing through the Dayton area along I-70. You can easily spend an entire day there, but it's segmented into different exhibits that you can pick/choose from to fit your allowed time. Lots of nearby hotels, as well.
The brand spanking new California Academy of Sciences in Golden Gate Park, San Francisco. "An aquarium, a planetarium, a natural history museum, and a 4-story rainforest all under one roof." http://www.calacademy.org/visit/
Cheers, Tim -- Tim Janke Part mad scientist, part lion tamer: sr. software engineer, global team leader, project mana
Chicago, IL
Museum of Science and Industry - U505, captured by Dan Gallery's jeep carrier on the high seas in the Atlantic during WWII. A full size Boeing aircraft (727?), coal mine, and more. Plus it's free on Thursdays (or was in 98. A number of Chicago museums have a free day each week) Take time to walk around teh U of C next door - birthplace of the atom bomb, and a few good free museums on campus. Plus the Robie House (Frank Loyd Wright - if you really liek architecture take an architecture tour of downtown Chicago)
Field Museum. Simply first rate, and the Shed Aquarium is next door.
Washington DC
Everyone's heard of the Smithsonian and the Udvar - Hazy Air Space museum (hint - take the 5a Metro Bus from the Roswell metro station to Dulles airport if you use public transportation); but if you are interested in technology take the US Mint tour, stop by the Navy Museum at the Navy Yard or the International Spy Museum, 800 F St. NW (both are also Metro accessible)
Fort Meade, MD National Cryptological Museum - NSA's museum, complete with an Ultra device. Located just north of DC at I295 and MD 32. Baltimore MD
B&O railroad museum if you are a train fanatic, then stop by the Inner harbor, grab some seafood at Phillips and see the Constellation, Submarine USS Tang and the USCG ship and lightship there. (If you really like submarines, there's the Navy Submarine Museum, home of the Nautilus in New London, Conn as well.)
Dayton, OH
Wright Patterson AFB museam - palnes, planes, and more planes
Pensacola FL
Naval Aviation Museum, more planes and some of the best beaches in the world. Home of Officer and a Gentleman.
As a side note, check out the major military bases near your routes - many have museums on base as well that are very good if you like military history. For example, Aberdeen, MD has the Ordnance museum, complete with a large tank park, V2 and German Railway Gun. Fort Bragg has the special forces museum, Fort Knox the armor museum.
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
I just got back from a trip to Los Angeles that included a stop by the Getty Center and it was as amazing and beautiful as always!
Check out the College Park Aviation Museum, just north of DC. I took a friend who was a nut about that stuff, and he went wild. He kept saying, "I knew that happened, but I didn't realize it happened HERE!"
They also have a full-size mockup of the controls of a Wright Flyer hooked to a flight simulator program. After attempting that a few times, I thought it was a miracle that the first fatal accident didn't happen a whole lot earlier.*
http://www.collegeparkaviationmuseum.com/home.htm
OTOH, if you don't care about pre WWII airplane history, don't bother.
*OK, imagine this. You're sitting in the plane. Your air-speed indicator is a piece of string hanging from a spar in front of you. You've got two levers, one on each side of you. If you're sitting in the pilot's seat, moving the left-hand lever front or back moves the alerons, changing your angle of attack from up to down. Moving the right-hand lever controls the warp. Pushing forward rolls you right, and pulling back rolls you left. Or maybe I'm mis-remembering and it's all backwards from that.
Now imagine moving over to the co-pilot's seat. The levers are reversed: right is alerons, left is warp.
And the throttle is a switch. It's either on or off.
I thought it was a minor miracle that it only took me three or four attempts to keep it in the air for two whole minutes without crashing.
Three that I have enjoyed are:
Marshal Space Flight Center, Huntsville, AL
The Atomic Museum, Albuquerque, NM
The Cosmosphere, Hutchinson, KS
There are many more possibilities. Most large government labs, such as Fermilab have tours and/or a visitor center. Most large universities have museums. These are often small but sometimes excellent and some have not been "dumbed down" like some of the larger public museums.
I also have to recommend the Natural History Museum here, it's spectacular. Also the Hayden Planetarium hits my geek nerve in just the right way. Also if Science is your thing, you can try to swing by City College to catch a glimpse of Michio Kaku. :)
The military kind of tank, that is. You could go to the United States Army Ordnance Museum for a day of wandering around a huge collection of tanks and other military stuff. Very cool museum. I once spent several hours wandering around it. And it's not too far from Philly.
My family recently returned from Idaho, where we saw the world's first nuclear power plant. Tours are provided of the entire plant, including the control room, the rod storage area, and even the actual core. You can also play with the fuel-handling control arms. The tour guide was great as she knew a ton of engineering details and many anecdotes about the people who made history there. Check it out at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_Breeder_Reactor_I
Have you tried turning it off and on again?
Plan your drive around the missile test schedule http://www.wsmr.army.mil/wsmr.asp?pg=y&page=202
The drive out to the VLA is worth it to see the telescopes, though there's not much in the way of a museum there. http://www.vla.nrao.edu/
I've also heard good things about lanl's Bradbury Museum, but I've never been there. http://www.lanl.gov/museum/
Spaceport America was originally scheduled to have a hangar and terminal in 2010, so there might be something there worth checking out. http://www.spaceportamerica.com/
I know you specifically asked for museums in North America, but you'd save a lot of travel time and get to see some of the best museums in the world within walking distance of each other if you go to London. I spent a week there once, just going to museums and I wanted to stay for a month. Hyde Park is the best place to start IMHO.
872835240
I have not done the Exploratorium, but have done the others. And yes, I would say that they are the best. As such, next time I am in SF, I will have to hit Exploratorium.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
So grandpa finally kicked the bucket, eh? Why don't you think about what he would have liked to spend the money on? Maybe find a young, hot gold digger and shower her with money. Maybe you'll get a threesome out of it. After that, if you're still hung up on this museum thing you can all go check out the Erotic Heritage Museum. I'm sure grandpa would approve.
If you are near Seattle I highly reccomend the Museum of Flight at Boeing field. See some great history and awesome jets. http://www.museumofflight.org/
I would recommend the Marshall Space Center in Huntsville AL. It is about 15 miles due east of I-65 if you are making a north-south trip across the middle of the country.
Tisha Hayes
Try Upper Canada Village in Morrisburg, Ontario, Canada... it is very nice. The people there talk and act as if they are still living in that era, you can ride in a horse drawn cart and in a horse drawn boat. A walk around the village lets you see back in time to how the black-smith made horse-shoes, the broom-maker made brooms, etc. There is a mill there where they make boards out of trees in an actual working mill (powered by water). If you has the moolah (I think it was $20), you can dress in the old style and you can also ride a penny farthing bicycle!
I wanted to try the old-fashioned pan-fried perch, but hadn't the money. Ended our day with a loaf of fresh baked bread from a stone oven though!
It is old science, but very exciting (geek alert) science/tech.
soylentnews.org Go there to enjoy the people!
Goldendale Observatory is a small public observatory. Since it's not booked up by astronomers doing studies, you don't just tour the facility and then peek through the telescope and leave. Instead most of the time is spent looking at things. Groups are small and the volunteer guides, who are knowledgeable amateur astronomers, will point the telescope at whatever you want. Last time I was there nobody else had any requests, so I asked the guide to show us some stars with distinct colors. He launched right into an impromptu sky tour of 6 or 7 good ones. I really like that place. About 15 miles south is an interesting full-size concrete replica of Stonhenge, built by a concrete industry tycoon after WWI.
Start with the Museum of Science and Industry. Amazing.
I think the private aquarium in the basement of Mall of America deserves some credit. To compare it to the old National Aquarium in the basement of Labor on the D.C. Mall I think would be an insult to Underwater World, but it obviously doesn't have space like the Shedd. Lot of sharks, many species and many displays but it doesn't do something like a dolphin show. The main attraction is one of those acrylic walk-through designs for better or worse. Mostly better because it's a lot of fun and reasonably long.
Science Museum of Minnesota. Dunno. They all look alike to me. Floors of demos and interactive projects for kids, dinosaur bones, theaters and a marine emphasis with the tugboat and Mississippi River education. Plan for good weather and the veranda on the St. Paul Mississippi River bluffs is superb.
Couple specialties:
The Pavek Museum of Broadcasting, 12,000 sq. feet of antique equipment display, training, restoration, etc.
Mill City Museum. Postmodern in the sense of a modern tech history museum built within the fire-ravished ruins of a national heritage site they didn't care enough about quickly enough to preserve intact. Technology of flour milling back when Minneapolis/St. Paul was where Great Plains wheat went to become flour for the country.
The "butterfly house" at the Durham Life & Sci is spectacular.
ScienceWorks Hands-On Museum in Ashland, Oregon. It's not big. It's for kids. It's a bunch of cheaply made science demonstrations. But this is the most brilliant museum I've ever seen.
First, there's enough stuff in it that kids actually get to do hands-on, rather than crowding around in a big group watching one kid do hands-on. Second, the stuff is either tough and durable or well-maintained or both, because it all works.
When I walked in, the first thing I saw was a column, with two ends of a long length of 3" flexible pipe hanging down within reach, and a placard suggesting you put one to your ear and talk into the other. On craning your neck back, you see that the pipe runs up the column, across the ceiling of the building in big hanging loops, across, around, back, and down the column again. You talk in one end. You hear your voice come back with a half-second delay.
You can stand on a platform surrounded by a little moat of soapy water, and pull on a rope which lifts a ring out of the moat and surrounds you so that you are inside a cylindrical soap bubble.
No kidding, it's sensational. The nearby Crater Rock Museum in Central Point is also small--five or six big rooms--but, dare I say it, a little gem and worth a stop if you happen to be in the area anyway.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
ScienceWorks in Ashland, Oregon. Am I right?
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
Why settle for exhibits when you can visit live labs, see real data and meet interesting, famous and soon-to-be-famous scientists? Come to Tucson and visit your dollars at work.
If Hubby weaned happily at Franklin he's gonna flip out for the University of Arizona's Steward Observatory Mirror Laboratory where almost every major telescope on Earth (and beyond) gets it's mirror -- some are up to 20 feet across. Tours, interviews, whatever. While in Tucson make sure to sample our cooking, the food's insane great here! And, of course, you can marvel at the Grand Canyon either before or after.
Newest Scope is the Large Binocular Array Observatory, at Mount Graham, AZ (70 miles east of Tucson but close enough to I-10 for a day trip) Dual 20-foot mirrors, scanning the Universe with public tours, seminars, etc. Google it.
Star of the show is Kitt's Peak just 42 miles southwest of Tucson. It's the largest, most diverse gathering of astronomical instruments in the world and the only advanced astronomy site on this continent, with three major optical telescopes plus 19 other major instruments. Visitor center, tours, transportation all explained at the website.
What's up there? About two billion dollars of technology and fifteen or twenty of the best living astronomers, that's what. Including the Large Binocular Telescope with two, count 'em two, of the afor-mentioned 20-foot reflecting disks mounted in a dedicated six-story building.
Inventory:
KPNO Nicholas U. Mayall Telescope 4.0 m Ritchey-Chrétien reflector
WIYN Telescope 3.5 m Ritchey-Chrétien reflector
McMath-Pierce Solar Telescope Unobstructed solar reflector
KPNO 2.1 m Telescope Fourth largest on the mountain
Coudé Feed Tower Coudé spectrograph
SOLIS/Kitt Peak Vacuum Telescope Solar telescope
Razdow Telescope Weather monitoring for the solar telescopes
WHAM Telescope Milky Way temperature and density mapping
RCT Consortium Telescope Remotely controlled
WIYN 0.9 m Telescope Galactic studies
Calypso Observatory Only private telescope on the mountain
CWRU Burrell Schmidt Galactic studies
SARA Observatory Variable stars, undergraduate training
ETC/RMT No longer operating
Spacewatch 1.8 m Telescope 72 in mirror scavenged from the Mount Hopkins MMT
Spacewatch 0.9 m Telescope Spacewatch
Super-LOTIS Follow-on to the ETC/RMT
HAT-1 Recently relocated to nearby Mount Hopkins
Bok Telescope Versatile
MDM Observatory1.3 mMcGraw-Hill Telescope Originally at Ann Arbor
MDM Observatory2.4 m Hiltner Telescope Galactic surveys
HF radio-telescope, built atop a tank turret
ARO 12m Radio Telescope One of two telescopes operated by the Arizona Radio Observatory, part of Steward Observatory
VLBA One of ten radio-telescopes forming the VLBA
Nothing terribly much locally. Kansas Cosmosphere and Space Center in Hutchinson was pretty cool last I saw it. Indianapolis Museum of Natural History was also pretty cool. They have a few here in Wichita, but unless it's just on the way anyhow I'm not so sure I'd bother.
Ashfall just underwent a massive expansion and is a completely amazing place to visit, if you are in the area of north-eastern Nebraska. Look it up if you are into mammoth-era fossil sites.
I loved the National Cryptologic Museum just outside Fort Meade in Maryland.
The facility isn't flashy, but they have real Enigma machines, a cipher that may have been owned by Thomas Jefferson (they can trace it to near Jefferson during his lifetime - he described something similar in his writings), the US "Cryptographic Bombe" used to break Enigma 4-wheel machines after Bletchley Park initially cracked the code, Super Computers, government crypto gear, and displays on US missions involving cryptology.
We were fortunate to get a very helpful dosant who was ex-NSA. Best way to see it
If you're in DC, you'll see ads for the "Spy Museum", which is interesting, but half fluff. The National Cryptologic Museum is the real thing.
...and I've been building exhibits for science museums for the past 25 years. In my experience, the following are the best in the U.S.:
Liberty Science Center, Newark, NJ
Chicago Museum of Science and Industry, Chicago, IL
Indianapolis Children's Museum, Indianapolis, IN
Science Center of Minnesota, Minneapolis, MN (don't miss the Museum of Questionable Medical Devices!)
St. Louis Science Center, St. Louis, MO
OMSI, Portland, OR
Reuben H. Fleet Center, San Diego, CA
California ScienCenter, Los Angeles, CA
And when you're in L.A., don't miss the Museum Of Jurassic Technology. Absolutely fascinating.
Raleigh's NC Museum of Natural Sciences has the most complete (by far) Acrocanthosaurus skeleton on display. The quality of exhibits, in my opinion, rivals that of many I've seen. It's worth a visit to their website: http://naturalsciences.org/exhibits
38.638864,-90.18779
Allow me to suggest spending more time outside the museum.
John White's fine essay The Power of Live Steam is the perfect introduction to our most authentic steam railroads.
No static exhibition is going to have quite the same impact as walking the yards of the East Broad Top.
The simplest of things can teach you so much: Walking the Brooklyn Bridge, The High Line
I'd recommend:
* National Cryptograpy Museum, Ft. Meade MD
* Atomic Testing Museum, Las Vegas, NV
* Trinity test site (only open to the public like 2x a year, google it)
IIRC there's also interesting NASA-related stuff in FL and Huntsville, AL... Not sure how much "modern ruins" gear is still left lying around near Cape Kennedy though..
There is a museum in Dayton, OH which is just about Dayton's only attraction. This is the National Museum of the United States Air Force. Some of their exhibits include:
Admittedly, this may not be as electronics or computer nerd like we all assume you are, but if you are into any level of mechanical engineering or have been a pilot at any level, then you will surely appreciate this place, even if you only visit it once in your lifetime.
There are no parking or admission fees and they're open just about every day of the year, except for three major holidays.
Visit the Royal Tyrell Museum http://www.tyrrellmuseum.com/ in Drumheller, Alberta. Right in the badlands so you can visualize the dinos roaming around outside.
It's rather specialized and so may or may not be of interest, but an unusual and little known museum is the JAARS Museum of the Alphabet near Waxhaw, North Carolina. It's about the history of writing systems and how writing systems are developed for languages without them. Its associated with Bible translators, but non-Christians (such as myself) need not be concerned: it has no Creationist axe to grind or anything like that. (JAARS originally stood for "Jungle Aviation and Radio Service". It is the technical support organization for Wycliffe Bible Translators. Think of them as the Indian Jones types of the missionary world.)
If you're going to be in the Chicago area you'll have the Museum of Science and Industry, Natural History Museum, and Adler Planetarium all within an easy walk of each other. If you like pan pizza check out Gino's East. One day may not be enough though.
In Chicago there is also the Shedd aquarium, and the Adler Planetarium, Lincoln park and Brookfield zoos.
Can fill up a week no problem.
One of the best museums I've been to. The SR-71 is unbelievable.
Don't know how far you plan on driving, but our new website called Where's URL (www.wheresurl.com) is a visual travel directory. Type in a city, set the category filter to one of the museum types (science, aerospace, art, etc.), then zoom or drag the map around to see what's nearby. Each place shown gives you a direct link to their website - no spam or ads. Over 2,000 museums, plus 21,000 hotels for when you get sleepy... ;-)
Fine Arts
Science
Aquarium
Natural History
USS Constitution
Plus MIT, Harvard, and a great live music scene. I visited for a week about a year and a half ago, and had a blast. Planning a 2 week trip in 2010.
A visit to the Burgess Shale might be of interest This is the location of one of the major deposits of fossils from the Cambrian Explosion, the subject of Steven J. Gould's book Wonderful Life and Simon Conway Morris' Crucible of Creation. Tours are are run both by Parks Canada (for those without prior knowledge and the Burgess Shale Geoscience Foundation (for more knowledgable visitors). Note that the tours involve some real hiking, so you must be physically fit.
This year is the centennial of discovery of the deposit so there are all sorts of special activities going on. The point of departure is the town of Field, British Columbia, near the Alberta border.
OMSI is excellent, but I really have to recommend The Evergreen Air And Space Museum. The Spruce Goose itself is worth seeing, but the incredible collection sitting literally under it's wings is what makes it fun.
My wife and I got to the DC area and took in the Smithsonian last year, including Udvar-Hazy - It was incredible, but really didn't compare in many ways to Evergreen.
-- I really need to bleed off some of this
Over the past few years, IEEE Spectrum magazine has been running a series of reviews of "Sci/Tech Museums". You'll find most of the reviews simply by searching there:
http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/search?media=all&q=museums&x=0&y=0
You'll get a good dozen or so reviews right there, and done by sharp, observant technology professionals.
One simple rule for its versus it's
I'm not sure if you're trolling, but in case you're one of those people trapped in a religious school that pretends to teach biology (and I'm gonna ignore at least three major factual errors in your biological diatribe, because I wanna talk theology with you anyways.)
The problem with YEC types is that they aren't giving God the benefit of the doubt. And they're ignoring the awe-inspiring experiences that - assuming He exists - God's set out there for us to figure out. We've got answers most of the things in God's rant in the Book of Job, "Thus Spake God The Lord Out Of The Whirlwind", yet God could still lay that rant on us, He'd just have to change the scientific questions.
One thing is absolutely certain about our Universe. No God hashed the whole thing together in a week some time around the invention of human writing, and He sure as hell didn't fill it with faked evidence that it's much older than 6000 years. That's the kind of hack job a human would imagine.
God, if He exists, is way smarter than that.
Now, take a Being that could, by nudging a couple of mathematical entities (branes), set things up such that when they intersect, a different mathematical entity (a universe) gets spawned, and one of them (maybe more than one, but how would we humans know?) just happens to be spawned with physical constants suitable for stellar nucleosynthesis, and some 13.2 billion years later - intelligent life evolves on a 4.5-billion-year-old planet that's smart enough to notice (stellar parallax) that the nearest stars are very far away, some of them vary regularly (Cepheid variables), and can be used as yardsticks to compute the distance to other consistently-bright objects (supernovae), which could be used as yardsticks to compute the distance to galaxies, which revealed the Hubble red shift, and ultimately, the mapping of variances in the cosmic microwave background radiation from the Big Bang...
And that's just the stuff we've managed to figure out, all by using the big brains our universe and our biosphere and natural selection has enabled us to evolve.
My God created something 13.2 billion years ago that continues to boggle the world's greatest physicsts. Science is a game we play with Him to figure out what His rules are. The smarter we physicsts get, and the more we learn about His creation, the smarter our God has to have been in order for us to still be perplexed by the awesomeness of it all.
Six thousand years? Painstakingly creating each species, one at a time? Your God appears to be a obsessive-compulsive micromanager who - if you're going to use the Bible as your "science" textbook - hasn't revealed a damn thing about Himself to us since the days of the Roman Empire. Stop shrinking God to human standards and timeframes. If you don't comprehend a 13.2 billion year old universe, if you don't fathom a 4.6 billion year old Earth, and if you don't like how amazingly awesome it is that sentience evolved a mere 50,000 years ago - barely a tip on a 3-billion-year-old iceberg of biological awesomeness - then please, give God the benefit of the doubt that He might have done something you can't understand, to say nothing of what a shephard wrote 4000 years ago.
The Ontario Science Centre - great place.
ROM - Royal Ontario Museum
As far as a Science and Technology type Museum trip, you don't want to make Milwaukee you primary destination, but if you are hitting some of the Michigan sites that have been mentioned and of course, the Chicago Museums it may be worth your time to take a little jaunt up to Milwaukee. The Milwaukee Public Museum has been hurting for cash (I believe they basically laid off all the curators) but there have a decent "Earth" exhibit that includes some dinosaur stuff, plate tectonic stuff, and geology stuff. They also have a somewhat interesting rain forest exhibit and participate in a traveling exhibit (not sure what they have right now). I heard they also have some kind of planetarium thing going on right now but I do not know what that is about.
Not to mention the Milwaukee County Zoo is really spectacular. I know I'm pushing the bounds of what you asked about but if that type of thing interests you also it really is a nice zoo to visit. I don't know if it really gets the credit nationally that it deserves.
Mind you I don't want to oversell these attractions in Milwaukee. If you made a special trip for them you probably would want to find me and kick me in the face....but being two hours from Chicago might make it easy enough to be worth your while, should you choose to go in that direction.
...in Gatineau is definitely worth your time. It's also within walking distance (across the river into Ottawa) from the Canadian National Gallery and the War Museum, both excellent. There's also the Aviation museum there, which has the nose cone of a CF-105 (Avro Arrow).
In Alberta, there's the Royal Tyrrell Museum, one of the finest dinosaur museums on the planet - and in the midst of some stunning landscape as well!
I rather like Boeing Field in Seattle when I was there, and the endless museums in San Diego's Balboa Park are good for a completely full week if you're so inclined. (The Air&Space museum and Car museum stuck out quite a bit in my memory.)
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
Gotta mention my former employer, Linda Hall Library in Kansas City, MO.
It's a privately-funded library open to the public and focusing on science, engineering and technology.
The rare books collection is spectacular... if you can go in during the week, and give them a day or two notice, the folks in the rare books area will be happy to show you some of the neat stuff in the collection.
The library underwent a major renovation/building project a couple years ago.
In addition to the library, the grounds are maintained as a very nice urban arboretum. ...brig
-- When I grow up I'd like to be a systems defenestrator.
London--the Natural History Museum is right next door to the Science Museum and both are world-class, if not the best in the world.
Okay, not a museum... but as far as zoos go, it's pretty interactive. Make sure you walk through the indoor rainforest. AFAIK you might otherwise hit an open stretch of no museums while you cross the midwest, so it's a valid excuse to drop in!
I volunteer at the Exploratorium, and it's great. I think it must be one of the top, if not *the* top, hands-on museums in the world. Also, the other poster's advice about the pass good at multiple museums is a good one. My fine arts one is called a "reciprocal pass". Some participating museums give you free admission, and sometimes it's discounted. A great value for your scenario.
Science World, in Vancouver, BC, is awesome. There are lots of things to play with -- many are kinda "aimed" at kids, but I still love it every time I go there.
Never been to the US, but I hear there's a man with a beard of bees on the road from Las Vegas to New York.
I'm sorry; I had typed in a long list of places with explanations, and then something happened, the UPS beeped, and the computer shut down. Just as I was about to post it. Heck darn. I had hit "preview" several times, so there's a copy in Slashdot's database until it expires, but I don't think it's possible for me to recover it. (Slashdot editors, a feature suggestion: when we are editing an article, give us a unique URL; when Firefox comes back up, our article will be pulled back out of Slashdot's database instead of being orphaned.)
All I can do for you right now is just type in the bare list. Google will find them and you can read about them.
Columbus, Ohio: Center of Science and Industry (COSI)
Monterey, California: Monterey Bay Aquarium
Berkeley, California: Lawrence Hall of Science
San Francisco, California: Exploratorium
Portland, Oregon: Oregon Museum of Science and Industry (OMSI)
Seattle, Washington: Pacific Science Center
And in Canada:
Vancouver, B.C.: Science World
Victoria, B.C.: Royal BC Museum (awesome natural history museum) (and while you are there, Victoria Bug Zoo)
Edmonton, Alberta: Telus World of Science (maybe not worth going all the way over there)
Not exactly what you asked for:
Eatonville, Washington: Northwest Trek (I really love this place)
I love the idea of your trip, and I hope you have a great time!
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
Humans have way less chromosomes than a fern for example, but are much more complicated organisms. There is plenty of space in the genetic code to record information. No, I never studied biology or genetics so perhaps I'm getting my terminology wrong or whatever, but I do know that it's pretty difficult to tell how complex an organism is just by looking vaguely at how much 'genetic information' it has. It's another pseudo-scientific nonsense that appeals to 'intuition' rather than science, and it of course would work on most people that don't know anything about genetics..
As for recombining information, aren't there only 4 'characters' in genetic sequences? Yet millions/billions of life forms can result. And in fact we share There are only 2 states in binary, yet given enough bits you can store basically any data you want. A 256 bit value doesn't have anywhere near as many values as a 512 bit one, but it can still store a lot of values. And we aren't just recombining info we already have, there are weird mutations happening all the time when new life is created - some are visible, and some not-so-visible.
Believing in God doesn't entail a tireless pursuit of truth - if anything I've become a lot more interested in the world and 'truth' now that I don't believe I have all the answers laid out on a plate for me. It's just as valid to ask "where did God come from?" as "where did we come from?", but if you do a lot of Christians will look at you as if you're a blasphemer/idiot. They like to just pretend the buck has to stop somewhere, despite talk of eternity and no beginning/end, they can only apply that concept to god rather than the rest of existence. I believe that people grasp hold of that because feeling there is some overarching meaning or purpose to everything is comforting. It certainly was to me, and it's still a disappointing idea in some ways that the universe may have no 'purpose', but I'd rather look at things with my eyes open than try to explain away everything that we are discovering about the universe we live in, in an attempt to keep a desperate grasp of beliefs that we just made up a few thousand years ago (I'm going to get flamed so much for this, heh).
which is totally what she said
I missed your second last paragraph because of your rambling and my need to start replying near the top. I spent most of my life giving God the benefit of the doubt, I took my beliefs very seriously and considered myself a Christian from the ages of 14-24. Yes the bible does have an explanation for the evil around us, but I believe now that that explanation has been fitted to the world rather than the other way round. Once you can accept that it is made upm then there are no longer any 'mysteries' (as most people would call them) in the bible about why god made the devil/sin, or why he blames us for acting in a way which he actually designed us to act (not to mention that statistically if there were any chance of people taking fruit at all in the garden of Eden that it would have to happen at one point, the whole thing is a 'set up' as one of my Christian friends has recently realised - IMO this sort of thing made me think that even if your god was real, I wouldn't worship him, because he's a jerk).
These things to me show that the bible is a bunch of crap, though when you already believe in God (most likely because you were brought up doing so, though some people are roped into it later, usually trying to get rid of some guilt in their life IMO because it's often the 'worst' people that are attracted an offer of salvation) you have to think up ludicrous excuses which place the blame for sin upon anything but God, even if he is all knowing and in control of everything, which would really make him responsible for everything that happens in his creation (especially considering in the bible Adam and Eve are not meant to have any concept of good/evil before they eat the fruit from the tree). It is a parent's responsibility to supervise a small child, the child can't be legally held responsible for anything it does before it knows the difference between right/wrong in certain situations.
which is totally what she said
Four come to mind:
1. The Tyrell Dinosaur museum near Drumheller Alberta. That's 3 hours gone. Nearby is Dinosaur Provincial Park. I had a school group there, and one of the kids actually found a significant bone sticking out of the cliff.
2. If you are interested in early technology, Head Smashed In Buffalo Jump Interpretive center is worth your time. Technology of dealing with 2000 lb food when you don't have a horse.
3. In Toronto the Royal Ontario Science Museum has lots of hands on stuff. Can spend days there.
4. In central washington there is an interpretive center near dry falls where the channeled scablands were formed when glacial lake Missoula drained. At the center you overlook a shallow canyon -- about 1000 feet deep. On the horizon you see another rim -- 20 miles away. For two weeks water poured through this gap 700 feet deep, moving 70 miles an hour.
The center is worth an hour or two, the walks another hour.
This, along with continental drift, shattered the geological theory of uniformism.
Third Career: Tree Farmer Second Career: Computer Geek First Career: Teacher, Outdoor Instructor, Photographer.
It's the strangest thing that people allow the internet to convince them that there's no longer a need to experience things first-hand, especially with something like a museum.
I know I'm on /., so this will probably fall on dry earth here, but at some point you may find out that actual sex with a living, breathing person is actually a worthwhile addition to browsing pr0n. And driving a car at breakneck speeds actually adds a bit of a thrill when compared to a round of Need for Speed.
You'll have to trust me when I tell you it's pretty much the same thing with museums vs. Wikipedia articles...
visit the creationism museum here in Kentucky. Who on /. wouldn't agree with that?
At one time the Museum of Nature (Ottawa, Canada) was the most surreal experience you could imagine. The building is literally a massive castle. Beautifully built with an atmosphere without comparison. They had the most fantastic paleontology section where you would start at the bottom of a ramp, very dark and foreboding and see fossils from a billion years ago. As you walk up the ramp you see newer and newer fossils - they did an excellent job showing transitional fossils. The ramp would wind around, showing the incredible assortment of life our planet has seen in the past. Finally, it would open up into a large chamber with dinosaur skeletons as far as the eye could see. You would begin with Triassic, Jurassic then Cretaceous. The chamber would then lead to the rise of mammals, ice age, etc... I swear the designer was a genius.
After renovating (I kid you not) they've lumped everything together in a horrible assortment of ice age animals, dinosaurs, mammals, etc... in a set of adjoining open ceiling rooms. There's no atmosphere (everything is bright white with phosphorescent lighting) and the science is certainly gone. I've tried to look into what idiot designed the new layout and I was certain I would find some slack-jawed creationist being responsible but no luck.
Anyway, this is just me venting and telling people not to waste their time on this travesty. However, the three museums of war, aviation and civilization in the Ottawa area are fantastic!
The Cheyenne Mountain zoo in Colorado Springs has the best giraffe exhibit I've seen. You are face to face with the long necked giants and are allowed and encouraged to feed them. A deep purple prehensile tongue grabs the snacks from your hands--grossing you out and inspiring entries like this all at the same time.
http://www.cmzoo.org/
Try the Baltimore Museum of Industry. They do a good job of highlighting the industrial era of the 40's, 50's and 60's. The size makes it doable in a few hours. The Domino Sugar Plant makes for a nice background and they have what has to be Steampunk sculpture out front.
I've been to a handful of science museums both here in North America and in Europe. I've rarely been as impressed as I have with my home Toronto's own Ontario Science Centre. Forget what people say about it being great mostly for kids. It's great for everyone, not everything is targeted at the younger ones. There's a significant amount of hands-on exhibits, active and animated ones, in quite a variety. I highly recommend it.
New slang when you notice the stripes, the dirt in your fries.
http://www.customwoolenmills.com/ and http://www.tyrrellmuseum.com/ in aberta canada for industrial age machinery in a working situation and a look into earths past
Is really cool. It just had it's pre-opening, so not all the displays are in yet. The official opening is in Sept/Oct of 2009.
Everything is interactive, very cool.
http://www.ctsciencecenter.org/
Downtown Hartford, CT
Shameless plug alert: Game server control panel
While I very much enjoyed the MIT museum http://web.mit.edu/museum/ while hunnymooning in Boston, we live in Nebraska, and I can recommend a few places here... Pioneer Village in Minden http://www.pioneervillage.org/ Stuhr Museum in Grand Island http://www.stuhrmuseum.org/ Of course there is the S.A.C. museum near Omaha http://www.strategicairandspace.com/ Elephant hall in Lincoln http://www-museum.unl.edu/ And the Omaha Zoo http://www.omahazoo.com/ There is also a local history Museum in Gohner, http://www.sewardcountymuseum.org/home.html which has a miniture live steam train that you can ride on weekends http://www.the-chippewa.org/index_content.html
"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are."
If anywhere near Kentucky, then Mammoth Caverns, otherwise whichever cave you pass along the way. You'll learn about geology, karst, minerals, environment (water cycle), natural history, unusual wildlife, natural formations, local lore, climate (cave temps average of region), etc.
Chicago, Chicago, Chicago
Peggy Notebaert Nature Museum
Adler Planetarium Museum
The Field Museum
Museum of Science & Industry (The one I like the best, Subs, Space, Planes, a coal mine, etc)
Chicago Children's Museum
National Museum of Mexican Art
Chicago History Museum
Chicago Art Museum
Zoo's
Etc, Etc, Etc
If you're anywhere near San Francisco, the Exploratorium is a must-see, fun and amazing "hands-on" experience.
A little further south, the spectacular Monterery Bay Aquarium is one of the best in the world.
Yes, it its run by the Rosicrucians, but don't let that scare you off - the artifacts are real! Very cool if you like history.
Wright Patterson Air Force Base (outside Dayton Ohio) has an amazing museum of all things flight related. http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/visit/
The Space & Rocket center in Huntsville is billed as "Earths Largest Space Museum"
There is even a full sized shuttle on display in it's Launch Ready configuration.
We are Dead Stars looking back Up at the Sky
...is the Museum of Jurassic Technology. Here's their webpage: www.mjt.org. A visit costs a few dollars, takes maybe 2 hours, and is fascinating. You may also be served cookies and tea. Don't miss it.
Two great small natural museums - Fairbanks Science Museum in Saint Johnsbury, VT (http://www.fairbanksmuseum.org/) is a beautiful, old museum that's a polished old-style jewel. And the Monte L Bean museum in Provo, UT (http://mlbean.byu.edu/home/) is great as well. Neither of these take more than a couple of hours to enjoy and the exhibits are very well done.
The Montshire museum in Vermont is a nice place. While it is geared towards children, I found it just as interesting. The planetary walk is long, but a nice view of VT forests and a better respect for just how far Pluto is from the Sun.
"No matter where you go, there you are." -- Buckaroo Banzai
There is the Museum of Science and Industry, the Field Museum of Natural History, the Adler Planetarium and the John G. Shedd Aquarium. The Lincoln Park Zoo is also nearby. They are all located on the lake front in Chicago. There is a free trolley from the commuter train stations (Union Station and Northwestern Station) which stops at the museum campus. You can also go to the Chicago Children's Museum at Navy Pier and see a movie on the iMax screen. It's 3 to 4 days worth of entertainment if you want to take it all in.
The Master (Angelo Rossitto) in Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome, "Not shit, energy!"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_Science-Technology_Centers
Get a membership at one of the science centers that is part of ASTC (most of them in NA seem to be) and you can get free admission in essentially all of the other ASTC member institutions via their "passport program". The ASTC also lists their members:
http://www.astc.org/members/passlist_about.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_Science-Technology_Centers
Get a membership at one of the science centers that is part of ASTC (most of them in NA seem to be) and you can get free admission in essentially all of the other ASTC member institutions via their "passport program". The ASTC also lists their members:
http://www.astc.org/members/passlist_about.htm
Not Minneapolis.
The Strategic Air & Space Museum (http://www.strategicairandspace.com/) is for you if like Strategic Air Command (SAC) aircraft. From a restored B29 to B36 to a B47 to a B52 To a B57. Even a SR71 is there. For those of you who are into "big bangs," there is even a mock-up of an "H-bomb." Really cool!
I was last at the Toronto Science Centre about 6 months ago (I lived in TO at the time), and it was actually pretty dull. Perhaps I just went at a bad time, but there wasn't really all that much there that was extremely interesting for either myself or the kiddies. This is the one on Don Mills Road (I think Don Mills + Eglinton)? Again, I have heard others that said it was interesting, but those that went with me found it rather dull so it really might have been just a bad time.
On the other hand though, the ROM (Royal Ontario Museum: downtown on Bloor St) on the other hand, was awesome. The dinosaur and nature exhibits are great, and a lot of the natural history sections or other sections were quite interesting as well. If you're in Toronto I highly recommend visiting it.
If you have some extra time, you could also visit "Casa Loma", which is a castle mansion in Toronto a short drive from the ROM (or up the subway and a bit of a walk). The grounds are beautiful in the summer, and it's got some pretty neat stuff inside including a underground passage to the carriage house area (where you can take a hand at archery if you care to pay for a few tries or lessons), a neat underground pool-area, some "secret passages" and other cool quirks.
In terms of aviation the only place I've been was the air-museum (I forget the actual name) in Seattle, which I would also recommend to anyone visiting that city. The Zoo in Seattle was equally worth visiting on a good-weather day, just make sure you have to time to get around everywhere so you're not rushed.
Hands down the best paleontology museum. I've been 5 times, and am still fascinated. And after the museum, you can explore the Canadian Badlands where many of the fossils were uncovered.
http://www.tyrrellmuseum.com/exhibits.htm
The gold standard for the country would probably be the Smithsonian group in the National Mall. You have the National Museum of Natural History and the National Air and Space Museum. A few blocks north is the Marian Koshland Museum. There is the National Zoological Park for a nice biology lesson. An hour drive away in Chantilly, VA you have a REALLY big air and space museum that is a branch of the National Air and Space Museum, only about 4 times as big, called the National Air and Space Museum's Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center.
While at Fort Walton Beach, Fl, years ago for work we visited a small aircraft museum there. Can't recall the name, but it should be locatable as a local attraction. They had at least a couple of dozen really cool old aircraft, including MiG jets and one of the 3 SR-71s in museums at the time (there may be more now). You could really get up close to most of them too.
Battleship Cove in Fall River, MA, is also really great. Had a lot of fun roaming around the battleship Massachusetts - marveling at how big, and small, it was. Still has some scars of battle damage too - a great legacy of another age.
They have a large room with a bunch of military vehicles/artillery as well, spanning from bore loaded cannons to Leopard Tanks and M109 Mobile Guns. Some of these have decent signage (most of the tanks, and vehicles along the outer building wall), while a lot of the stuff in the middle is interesting, but unfortunately not presented with any documentation.
The main galleries, however, are excellent, as described. If you're going soon, there's an exhibit about camouflage that's currently running there, created in conjunction with the Imperial War Museum in London, that was quite interesting. If you're hardcore into museums, as you seem to be, allocate a full day for this one.
If you find yourself in Eastern Montana, be sure to stop in Glendive. We have 3 museums with a population of around 5000 people. There is Makoshika State Park's museum which contains dinosaur, sea life, and mammoth fossils found in the area, there is the Gateway Museum of old west stuff and a suit of armor for some reason, and, best of all, Glendive has a creationist dinosaur museum. Just don't think too hard on how you go about considering yourself seriously when building a creationist dinosaur museum.
"Whoever loves instruction loves knowledge, But he who hates correction is stupid." Proverbs 12:1 (NKJV)
Science Museum of Minnesota is a remarkable place, esp if you want to learn about the earth's surface. They have teamed up with the National Center for Earth-surface Dynamics to create some pretty amazing exhibits, including the Big Back Yard (mini-golf that teaches you about rivers) and Science on a Sphere (just go see it to see what I mean). California Academy of Science in the Golden Gate Park of San Francisco has just reopened in a remarkable new building. Its a green design with an entire tropical ecosystem contained in a 3 story tall glass sphere.
Wow. I'm impressed you took the time to rip apart my post line for line. That's good. We need more dissections of errant posts around here.
I certainly hope nobody does that. This kind of discussion is exactly what is needed.
I've made two or three posts now and I've already got someone questioning my user ID. Awesome. I suppose it doesn't count for anything I've been reading here since the 90s? Why join now? I didn't think it was worth it before. I enjoy the site. I read a lot of the discussion. I saw a lot of misinformation on my hot button topics I thought I'd like to weigh into, though, so I thought I'd join after hearing my buddy join up recently too.
And, yes, I'd love to know what you think the real reason is.
You know, mostly, I just assume if people wanted info on creation they'd google for "creation", maybe "creation science" if they think nothing of creation relating to science is out there. That's honestly why I didn't link to anything. I guess I'm seeing that most people just don't know about the creation "scene". I call it a scene, I know, but really there is a whole area of people and of study out there surrounding origins. There is so much serious research and data out there.
Without further adieu, Answers in Genesis (quite solid, I think), True.Origin (quite impressive the history between them and Talk.Origins), Institute for Creation Research (can't vouch for them but they've been around), Creation Research, and, I wish I had this in front of me, but a few weeks ago I was reading this dense, dense study on the atmosphere, it's composition, and relating it to young earth concepts.
This is just an example of what I thought most people would do: Google for "creation". Those are the items of interest which I particularly respect or that have a history. There is a whole world of creation science out there just a google away.
You are amusingly abrasive. That's ok, I can take it. I have a fuller apprecation than you know, although I'm always willing to learn more. The linked article is interesting and something, as I've read the news over years, I've already thought about (ie. "junk dna" is just our name for something whose purpose we haven't figured out yet).
Perhaps you want to read up on genetic mutation. My layman terms for pedant terms aren't really that confusing.
Did a mutation occur in which the genetic material acquired new information? My suggestion is that the mutation we're seeing is a re-expression of existing information.
Selah.ca. Pause, and calmly think on that.
No, I'm not trolling. I'm not in school so, no, not trapped in any school teaching questionable topics. I would love to hear the factual errors, I'm all about knowing what is the truth.
That's really interesting. I've always thought many people put God in a box so we can understand him. Some christians go along with evolution because it makes things really simple: God is God and, if I don't think about it too much, evolution is an unproblematic way that things came to be.
What I'm doing is sitting back, letting God say his piece, giving him the benefit of the doubt, going out and seeing if he's on crack or not.
My idea of giving the "benefit of the doubt" is counter to what I see many people do. What I see are people who love the idea of a faith and a god but then they go and ignore the texts they call holy and think that certain thigns can fit into the bible.
My view on the bible is that it is way too coherent and way too cohesive to be, for example, shoe-horning evolution into the account of creation.
I would not believe in a god who couldn't get his bible right. What I've found, through numerous discussions just like this, is that the bible has proven itself time and again.
Hashed? The guy made a brilliantly elegant, partly organized and partly chaotic...complete universe. It's work of art.
Yeah the "faked evidence" bit is a popular conception of the account of creation. When you really get into it there's really much, much more going on. Why do things look so old? I don't know exactly off the top of my head. Try googling "starlight and time". It's an interesting cosmological theory that tries to solve some time problems while taking the genesis at its word. It may not stand the test of time but I've always been impressed at the outside the box thinking. The flood of genesis, and the surrounding issues of what the world was like before and after, may also be related in many ways to why the world appears old. Note this is all due to calibration of dating methodologies which make assumptions about half-lives and life spans.
Hey, no qualms there, God is smarter than I give him credit for. Nobody will ever truly fathom him until, perhaps, we die and see what's what
On first im
Selah.ca. Pause, and calmly think on that.
I wonder, when you started questioning the integrity of your belief, did you keep going that route or did you try to make your faith prove itself?
I had a very similar situation. I considered myself a christian from 0-23 or so. For some reason, I told myself that I didn't want to believe a lie and if I didn't want that than my faith had better be true. So I put it to the test. I've had countless disussion about the integrity of the bible and of questions about the faith. Researching every accusation I came to the conclusion the bible resoundingly stands on its own. That cemented my faith.
I should note I didn't just test my own faith. I started researching other faiths to see if they were in fact true.
Sin is an interesting aspect of christianity. Many have argued that in order for there to be any free will at all - actions counter to what is good for you must be possible. And what is good for you is the point tht God was trying to make: That you should obey Him in everything that you do - which up to that point was just simply not eating of one tree. God created them and put them in a perfect situation. Is that the sign of someone with bad intentions?
That's so classic. The worst people are attracted to salvation? You betcha! It's only when you realize your depravity (simply because you couldn't keep up your own version of "good") that you realize you need salvation and there's nothing you can offer anymore for it. All you can do is except the grace that would save someone as unworthy as you or I are.
Jesus told the religious elite of his time that he came as a doctor, not to for those who were well, but for those who were sick. It's just that most people's pride blocks them from seeing or admitting they are just as sick as the worst offenders in society. And so those religious elite didn't get it. Even today many don't get it.
Are you claiming that, in your adulthood, you don't know the difference between right and wrong? We all know the difference. We know the difference in our own ways because we violate our own versions of how we "ought" to live - when we break our own code. And the amazing thing is God knows that not everyone has His absolute law of what is right or wrong - but he made each of us know within degrees how we should be acting. That's how we know something's messed up. That's a prompting to go and look for something - that something is God who has been telling us a single thing for all eternity: Follow Him.
Selah.ca. Pause, and calmly think on that.
I wonder, when you started questioning the integrity of your belief, did you keep going that route or did you try to make your faith prove itself?
What do you think? I have always questioned my beliefs and had answers from others, or answers that I thought up myself (based on the bible, which I have read in its entirety, twice, and the new testament lots more times..). It would be a lot less objective of me to always consider things from the point of view that "the Christian god is real, now how can I twist everything else to fit into that worldview?", which is what I and most of my friends and family have been doing their whole lives. They never truly consider the idea that god might not be real, and that just creates a very biased mindset. Having seen it and argued it from both sides now, I like to think I am being more objective.
Note that I didn't consider myself a Christian from zero, I took the whole issue very seriously and wanted to make sure I was genuine without too many doubts before becoming a Christian when I was 13/14. Since then I have had multiple times in which I questioned things, and as you say most things made my faith stronger and made me think wow the bible explains the world so well! But now I have come across things which the bible simply gets wrong or doesn't account for, and see that it would be quite easy to make a religious book that fits to the known world, but later on starts failing, which I think is happening now in educated countries.
I've never particularly looked deeply into other faiths, there are usually basic things about their beliefs which I feel make it obvious that they aren't true. Same as I now feel with Christianity. It's obvious that most religion is simply man-made pap, and it's seems quite likely to me now that it all is.
God created them and put them in a perfect situation. Is that the sign of someone with bad intentions?
Yes, considering those who do sin are supposedly punished eternally in Hell. If an omniscient and all powerful god created us, he would have basically been able to set a slider saying how many people are going to heaven, and how many are going to hell. If sinners were simply wiped out then I'd find that easier to accept as a "loving" act, but overall I just find the whole situation rather farcical these days. To try to equate the whole thing with love, when the majority are meant to end up in pain, seems foolish. It would be more loving to not create anything at all rather than start such a silly game just so he can feel more "loved" (which isn't he meant to feel perfect love and communion in the trinity anyway? I just think it is all such a load of nonsense now, it makes much more sense as a story created by humans, because it just doesn't tie up very well IMO).
I accept that I do wrong things, and I was self-convicted of my sin most of my life. I get it. But now that I have experienced things from the other side I don't think that all atheists are simply pretending god isn't there because they hate him, or that all people are just ignoring their consciences etc. Christianity really exaggerates a person's conscience by making them feel guilty for perfectly natural things (yes you could say they're only natural because sin entered the world, whatever - combined with everything else, it doesn't seem to be that way).
No, I was talking about small children. We aren't like adults when compared to some all powerful God. And even if we now are with our levels of knowledge, any Adam and Eve wouldn't have been. To then punish the children of those people before they have done anything wrong themselves is also dumb.
You can keep preaching at me all you want, but I sat through 24 years of it, and I can usually see flaws in the argument that aren't being addressed. It's amazing how you just 'discard' a lot of sensible arguments as a Christian because you assume that people are only saying them because they "don't get it" or are just
which is totally what she said
If you are heading to Boston/Cambridge, don't miss the Harvard Museum of Natural History and its excellent glass flower collection.
http://www.hmnh.harvard.edu/on_exhibit/the_glass_flowers.html
This unique collection of over 3,000 models was created by glass artisans Leopold Blaschka and his son, Rudolph. The commission began in 1886, continued for five decades, and the collection represents more than 830 plant species.
Busy helping non technical users of OpenOffice.org - http://plan-b-for-openoffice.org/
...try the Liberace Museum in Vegas. You'll wish your brother George was there.
Downmodding is the refuge of the weak. Don't downmod, make a better argument!
If you're in upstate New York, the Corning Museum of Glass has a nice history of glass, including modern technological applications. It is close to the Glenn Curtiss Museum which has early airplanes, bicycles, and motorcycles.
I'm sorry, I find it very difficult to write these in-depth posts. I don't know why, it used to come easier. At any rate, that's my excuse for my tardy reply.
I know my explanations sometimes come off like "assume god is right," but I honestly try to word it in such a way as to deflect that.
The truth is I approach any biblical issue like anything else that needs proof. I see a statement implying truth and I say, ok, let's go out and prove it.
I honestly think most christians doubt their faith quite a bit, perhaps daily. They're not great doubts, they're just nagging doubts. Most christians work out their faith in a very internal way so you wouldn't notice. I often find my second-guessing my faith and I have to remember all the moments in my life that prompted my belief.
I think you should give them a little more understanding. People pose in public but mostly people aren't as hard as they appear.
Now that's where I came from. I had these things thrown at me, these flaws in the bible. I told myself that if I was going to believe in this god than his bible had better stand on its own. So I went out and found out how the bible does stand on its own.
Oh it's been happening for a lot longer than that. In any age where knowledge has been respected, wise men have "doubted" and people followed. Who wants a cosmic killjoy anyway? It's so much easier to just live without him anyway.
These religious quandaries have been going on ever since man was created. Many come to faith by it (and "faith" it is, in the end) and many do not.
I say it's a "faith" not because the bible gets things wrong--I don't believe it does after years of studying it and researching it--but I call it a faith because god, being outside his creation, may or may not be able to be observed by the laws inside the universe. That's why, when it comes right down to it, if we can not observe God, than belief in that God is a faith matter. Again, many have come to the conclusion that it's a natural conclusion to come to.
I've absolutely had that same thought that it's clear most religions are clearly man-made. The beautiful thing about God's faith is that it's downright topsy-tervy, not at all like what man would think up. It's foolishness.
God claims we're sinners and then provides an effortless way out? We sin, so God sacrifices the one person who couldn't be blamed to save us? God, the perfect one, provides forgiveness to us, in comparison worthless to a god? God puts up with Job questioning him? And then he turns around and doesn't answer a single question but raises more questions about just how strange and amazing this creation actually is? God uses sacrifices but never thought of the sacrifice of humans except in the single case it was least warranted? God calls King David a man after his own heart, this guy who slept with another man's wife and then had the man killed? I'd could go on and on and on...
Just thinking about all the little things God's word speaks about and which are absolutely not what man would've written about a religion...I am ceaselessly amazed.
I get this idea because
Selah.ca. Pause, and calmly think on that.
Oops, I somehow clicked post anonymously.. if you're going to reply, reply to this post please!
which is totally what she said
http://www.corvettemuseum.com/