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"Install Other OS" Feature Removed From the PS3
Hann1bal writes "The next system software update for the PlayStation 3 system will be released on April 1, 2010 (JST), and will disable the 'Install Other OS' feature that was available on the PS3 systems prior to the current slimmer models, launched in September 2009. This feature enabled users to install an operating system, but due to security concerns, Sony Computer Entertainment will remove the functionality through the 3.21 system software update."
Updated 3:49 GMT by timothy: An anonymous reader writes "This comes as something of a surprise. Particularly because only a month ago Sony Computer Entertainment management seemed committed to the continued support of the Other OS option on the PS3."
It doesn't run linux anymore.
This is BS, I don't see this being a good PR move, Possibly might even fall into
Does anyone know if we can install another OS BEFORE the update and still keep it? I don't want to lose the option just because I haven't exercised it yet.
Something sounds awfully fishy about this. If it's real, that's not exactly a day I'd want to release something like this.
OCO is Loco
It's not totally implausible that the feature allows some sort of exploit, but I can't seem to find anything about one actually existing, or it having come up in the past as a security concern. Is that just a cover to remove it, or are there actually security concerns?
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Now might be a time for the folks @ ps2dev to be a bit less arrogant/worrisome and allow things to be opened up.
While they do have some valid concerns, their excuses are wearing thin.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
...screw you right back atcha Sony!
- sigs are stupid
Guess I'll have to get on installing that copy of Yellow Dog Linux I have kicking around.
For optimal comment enjoyment, take red pill now.
It says if you have data on a linux partition before you update, you must copy it off because you won't have access to it after the update.
So that sounds like you'll be unable to run linux after the update.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
This is what happens when Sony gives us a limited, but useful, homebrew/open source support and an idiotic media-whoring kid decides to use it to attack Sony's OS security for no good reason.
Thanks, geohot. Good fucking job, you've managed nothing practically useful with your attack, but you pissed Sony off and now a) nobody can duplicate it any more, at least not if they want to keep using their PS3s for on-line gaming, b) the rest of us who didn't care for your retarded antics are now screwed.
-- Anonymous Hacker.
You heard right. Even the YDL distro designed for PS3 installation was so slow and artificially hampered that it had little use outside of curiosity for the occasional hobbyist. I touched it once and that was it, it was painful.
How can they sell something with a certain set of features and then just take it away? Thats like Ford saying we are disabling the air conditioners that were previously working on pre 2008 vehicles. WTF? I know, it didn't (doen't) really work all that well (slow) but I did run PowerPC Ubuntu on mine. This is more of an "eroding consumer rights" issue. Why now, considering the rootkit etc.. This just proves once again that Sony gives a rats ass about its customers rights.
"Computers are a lot like Air Conditioners" "They both work great until you start opening Windows"
People finally got into the Hypervisor on the PS3. That's pretty much the key to everything from legitimate homebrew to illegitimate pirating. I don't see a way for Sony to secure things in Linux. The Genie is out of the bottle. So this is the option they have taken. It's sad to see even though I never used Linux on it, or know anyone who did. It was nice to know the option was there.
Most tech products improve during their life cycle. Not Sony's. Emulation, Linux... every iteration removes one more feature. By the end of the year, they hope to have removed sound from the PS3, and a year from now the PS3 Omega will do nothing at all.
Some people are going to be very unhappy about this. Unless it's an early April Fools.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
I bought my PS3 for two things, cell development and games. So to play games I need the latest firmware but the latest firmware makes it impossible for me to do cell development. This was an advertised feature when I bought it(a few months after launch) so I don't see how Sony can do this without facing a class action suite.
In addition, disabling the “Other OS” feature will help ensure that PS3 owners will continue to have access to the broad range of gaming and entertainment content from SCE and its content partners on a more secure system.
lulz...
I think that they'd try to point back to the EULA that they can take 'update' as they see fit, but it would be like your car dealer 'updating' your XM radio to a normal one. It won't stand up in court on any planet (except maybe Texas).
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
I can't think of a better case for a class action lawsuit. They are extorting us out of features that we paid for. I bought this version of PS3 for several reasons, installing an alternative OS was high among them.
--why?
Twice the memory bandwidth would have made a useful platform.
Well, pretty much killed linux on the PS2 as well, so anyone who is surprised by this move doesn't know them very well.
It might have amounted to something yesterday. Now it's just another fringe platform. In the long story of computer history there have been many processors that have been marginalized by their vendors when they really did rock. The Cell is one, and now it's lost.
The thing is, I expected that from Sony because that's what they do - so I never bothered to master programming for Cell. They just don't get it. They never did and they never will. They've got some world class engineers and the poor bastards are restrained from ruling the world by the idiots they have in marketing and the executive branch.
To be fair, Toshiba and IBM (who participated in the Cell design) don't get it either - they'll never release a Cell platform that normal people can afford, and so they'll avoid the synergy that takes it from the fringe to dominance. It'll live and die in their mainframes and that's it - and they'll make a mint migrating their customers to the next fringe platform because God & Everybody knows you can't run mainframe OS's on x86 harware (right?).
But Sony? No, I expect this from Sony. Some people will find a way to break their DRM and run any OS you want on the thing now - but it's too late. That's too marginal and conditional for people who build stuff. Dammit Sony: we have enough stuff that doesn't work with our other stuff! Will you quit with the breaking flexibility please?
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Aw man, this means I'll have to take off the "My other OS is Other OS" sticker on my PS3.
I read TFA and all I got was this lousy cookie
There is no such thing as "consumer rights". There are "customer rights", but being a customer to be sold, and not a consumer to be culled has gone away. Remember Sony is run by the movie division. IP (theirs) is all that matters.
* Carthago Delenda Est *
My question is: did they advertise the "other OS" thing as a feature of the PS3?
If so, now that they are removing it, would you have a case if you took them to small claims court for false advertising? You might want to consider trying that actually, if you feel like parting with your PS3.
I wonder how the HPC community is going to respond; there is a not insubstantial community who heard "150Gflop/$400" and "Linux" and decided to build clusters from PS3s. Those machines can probably just have updates held back, but it makes replacement a problem. To forestall the inevitable "that isn't a serious use" argument, US Airforce owns Something like 2,500 PS3s for compute work.
Killing Linux on the PS3 also presents something of an issue for the other Cell "partners", who seem to be looking at the PS3 as a low-cost Cell development starter kit. The other Cell machines on the market are *much* more expensive (an IBM QS22 blade is $8-20k, depending on configuration, and Mercury Computer Systems doesn't even like talking about how much their Cell boards cost). Given that Cell is an enormously difficult architecture to target, having relatively inexpensive systems to test and train on is very desirable for the other vendors, especially now that so many of the HPC folks are fixated on GPGPU, which is also terrible to program for, but has a far lower cost of entry. It could be that IBM's decision not to pursue Cell in the HPC market is how it became politically tenable for Sony to kill off Linux on the PS3.
Poisson d'Avril much?
I don't buy that... if this was a joke, you'd ANNOUNCE it on 1-April, not announce it ahead of time that it will occur on 1-April. The announcement would be the joke. You don't joke on 29-March about something that won't happen on 1-April. Not if you understand the concepts of humor and the celebration of the day, anyway.
am I the only one who noticed it's on april fools' day?
I used to play my games on my SNES or PSX, just like I used to play my games on my computer. Both were fun.
But now, if I pay money for a console, all I can do is play Sony's games on Sony's console. This isn't good enough. I'm not paying $500 for a computer that I don't have root on, thanks.
As someone who used to buy exclusively Sony products this is just one more reason for me not to buy their products anymore. Lets recap shall we.
They buy draconian laws from clueless congress critters? .. Check.
.. Check.
.. Check
.. Check.
.. Check.
.. yep
.. yep
They want to ban consumers from possessing devices with a record button?
They want to proprietize the marketplace with proprietary DRM infected media formats?
They lobby lobby lobby for broadcast flags?
They lobby to close the analog loophole.
They lie to politicians (about piracy killing profits) for more draconian laws while turning record profits ?
They want to disable you ability to record CDs on you computer with rootkits while lobbying for a piracy tax on blank media?
They sue their customers ?
They are pro DRM, ACTA, DMCA,
Slapped red handed giving payola to radio station DJs to skew the song charts."
Anti fair-use?
And they support the view and by proxy have told Congress that countries that support open source software as part of a gov. procurement policy should be on a watch list.
Hmmm did i miss anything? When I take all these things into account a disturbing pattern emerges hence, when it comes to their products I'll take a pass.
Even if a class action suit is filed and they are found guilty or w/e ill receive a coupon in the mail for something i didnt want and have to pay real money to get anyways. Thanks alot Sony. I dont use my Linux on my PS3 whole lot, but i didnt give up 10 GB of precious HDD space for nothing.
Good-bye
There would be an uproar heard in Congress if General Motors used their OnStar download links to remove a feature. Suppose GM did something so that third-party audio players like the iPod couldn't use the car's speakers. This isn't totally unreasonable. GM's onboard entertainment system has a port for connecting a CD changer. If you didn't buy the CD changer option, that port is unused. There are third-party non-GM adapter kits for connecting an iPod to that port. The dashboard CD changer controls then control the iPod.
GM could probably download an update to change the interface so that this would no longer work. GM would prefer that customers buy a GM audio source; they remarket XM Radio. Arguably, the iPod is a device for pirating music, and removing that capability would enhance the security of the system. It would also eliminate the possibility of unauthorized iPod software interfering with the car's networks, and perhaps the OnStar system.
So why shouldn't GM do that?
The Memory Bandwidth of XDR is well on par with that of some of the fastest DDR2 on the market.
Maybe a little more ACTUAL MEMORY would've been nice.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
They're still advertising the "Open Platform" feature on their website:
http://www.playstation.com/ps3-openplatform/index.html
"There is more to the PLAYSTATION®3 (PS3(TM)) computer entertainment system than you may have assumed. In addition to playing games, watching movies, listening to music, and viewing photos, you can use the PS3(TM) system to run the Linux operating system."
Let's see how long that page lasts...
I haven't used the Other OS feature on my PS3 that much, but it was a motivator for buying the unit. Now, it's going to be gone. Sad. I'll remember this in in the future, SONY.
They took down most of the options on their 'Contact Us' page. You can't e-mail, or anything.
BUT they were stupid enough to leave the phone numbers on the site so feel free to clog their phones with calls expressing your displeasure over their violation of your property rights.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
How can they sell something with a certain set of features and then just take it away? I know, it didn't really work all that well....
1 Because the feature was never advertised
Wrong.
Even professional console developers use PS3Linux at home and work for prototyping. If they sold a Debugging Station for $2000 I'd rather do that, but then you need to do all that legal bullshit. Also taking kits home would set a bad example / end up losing kits depending who does it. :D
yes they did.
and even now their current ad campaign is "It does everything." Which is a flat-out LIE.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
More than a bummer. This option is what has made the PS3 a popular machine for clusters in the science community. This will be a big set back until a work around turns up.
I guess I'll just hold back on the update until a Custom Firmware is released that gives me all of the features and none of the bullshit.
Because in Texas the courts don't want to deal with your piddly shit, go shoot the guy with a shotgun and don't bother the courts.
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
You could leverage the full power of all the cores minus the graphics core for processing. I re-encoded videos on my PS3 under linux far faster than my Windows system.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
It's probably the minor hypervisor glitch I discovered back in 2.7 that allowed me to send more commands than I should have been able to send to the GPU, right past the hypervisor.
That was the best potential vulnerability we had at the time and I just stumbled upon it trying to figure out if I could tweak the encoder I was writing for the PPC Ubuntu install I had on at the time.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
Well.. not any more it doesn't.
I am the maverick of Slashdot
Hmm....
I use my ps3 for cell development, video streaming and playing games.
Sony is forcing me to choose between games or development.
Well... that means I've bought my last ps3 game.
I choose my ps3linux over the next call of duty.
http://www.stolk.org/tlctc
You missed the weeks (months?) Gentoo spent building up their "We are going to switch to the NT kernel due to all the issues we had with the 2.6 series."
and perhaps Sony unhappy enough to think twice next time..
just because you personally wont gain more then a "$10 off when buying God of War 3" coupon, doesnt mean Sony doesnt deserve some repercussions for this
People, what a bunch of bastards
Is it just me, or does this imply that someone at Sony found a way to hack the PS3 firmware through the install other OS option?
The ______ Agenda
Any of you who have run Gentoo on yours and seen how fast it can handle non-graphics-related tasks like compiling know it's not a "slow" unit.
finally, an excuse to run Gentoo!
People, what a bunch of bastards
Why is this modded funny? Does "Finkelstein" sound too much like a jokey "stereotypical Jewish lawyer" name? 'Cause a quick Google search seems to confirm that this is a real law firm.
Sony is negating an advertised feature of their products after consumers have bought, paid for, and privately own them. Sounds like ripe material for a legitimate class-action lawsuit to me.
Some people claim that Sony supported 3rd party operating systems in order to prevent the homebrew community from hacking the PS3. A lot of effort went into hacking the original Xbox in order to run homebrew on the device (the key part done by Bunny). Once this was opened up, it was only a matter of time before people could easily pirate games for the console and circumvent all copyright protections. Therefore, if Sony had not allowed a 3rd party OS to run from the beginning, then more people would see a need to hack the console and it would have been done.
To address the issue about properly hacking the PS3, the PS3 allowed 3rd party operating systems to run however it didn't allow full access to the graphics chip. So you could run linux but getting 3D hardware accelerated graphics was not possible. So if you are no longer able to purchase a PS3 that supports linux, it is possible that someone in the community shifts their efforts to opening up the console to run homebrew or linux which would then allow full access to the graphics hardware and thus properly hacking the system. Unless I am misinterpreting your definition of proper but either way it would be properly f***ed.
People want to use their devices for whatever they desire rather than being locked into what the manufacturer deems acceptable. So by not allowing owners to run their own software / OS, people will now put more effort into hacking the system so they can (or so goes the theory).
For some reason this story seems like I've already heard it a long ass time ago.
At any rate, the fact that Sony went so far as to implement a freaking HYPERVISOR to lock everyone but themselves out of the full capabilities of the hardware shows how much they support third party code.
Just to play Devil's Advocate here, was the "Install Other OS" ever a feature that was marketed? Was it on the side of the box, or in the commercial?.
-David
It is SONY, people. The spineless fat giant known for rootkits, support of insane copyright restrictions, etc.
The greedy company that created its own sound file format to protect you from copyright infringement.
The ones that shaft you with memory stick instead of adopting standard storage media.
To those poor wretches that are going to have their expensive toys broken, do not forget your lesson: Never deal with people you cannot trust.
I never deal with SONY.
For some reason, I feel like waiting until April 2nd before I get bent out of shape about this.
Right we shouldn't spoil this for the masses.
Hivemind harvest in progress..
I had Linux on my PS3 within a day of purchasing it. I knew it would run it and I wanted the extra functionality. It (and Linux on the PS2 before it) meant that we could make do with a cheap windows box for everyone else, who could use that machine more often with less sharing necessary.
Just helping others out:
It's geohot.
because sony is enough of an idiot to do an april fools joke enraging a lot of nerds rather then publishing that starting april first, the only PS3 on sale will be the special pink hello kitty edition.
seriously, today isnt april 1st, this isnt funny, and the only people who would notice, would become angry. How can anyone think this would be a joke?
People, what a bunch of bastards
Sony already caused massive issues with number crunching by removing the ability to install Linux on the latest slim PS3 models.
The old ones never need to be connected to the internet or have the ability to play the latest games, so they will not need this firmware update and will be unaffected.
This isn't big news, except maybe if they need second hand replacement PS3s.
Never saw it mentioned by Sony themselves other than on a Sony website, but it got plenty of "nerd press", just like the Linux kit on the PS2 did. (I have one of those too)
You not only hit the nail on the head, you drove it in with a single blow Daniel-san style.
This is why I've avoided Sony hardware like the plague for years now.
It's not that they don't release some EXCELLENT stuff.
It's just that they're such control freaks that they eventually decide to take their ball and go home with it.
Never mind that they're killing their own product.
Never mind that they're destroying a potential developer base.
Never mind that some of the things being developed on said platform are incredibly innovative uses of the equipment.
No, it's "MY BALL! MY BALL! MY BALL!"
Wake me when someone catches a clue.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
As I've told some friends, their Slims are inferior to my CECHE model PS3, because their Slims don't "do everything" my CECHE can do.
When I look at products I like to see Linux support listed. So I buy stuff from ZA Reason and System76 and used to like the PS3. If you have to hack it, the product has less of a future. Imagine a marketing department deciding to remove a major bullet point from the sales brochure, does this really make sense if you want to sell something?
This is going to lower the value of the device - its odd that they don't understand that.
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
From my point of view, I don't think that piracy is in fact the issue.
The main problem with allowing linux is the fact that a lot of people buy this set of hardware as a set of hardware and not as a gaming console.
This means that Sony will not only be making less money then if the sold it as a gaming console, but they actually lose money since they are selling the console itself at a loss.
They should be selling more expensive versions with linux enabled though, upping the price by a couple of hundred dollars would still make them a very cheap source of cool hardware.
Disabling it in all-ready sold products is just a bastard move though.
I thought the option was only there to skirt tax laws and get the machine taxed as a 'computer' ... perhaps the laws have now closed the loophole? It could have just been a rumour of course.
I've given up boggling at the bone-headedness of Sony's marketroids - their engineers create fabulous goodies and then the marketroids get them crippled. All the markets that Sony could have dominated but don't because of the blunders of these short-sighted nitwits. Without the Install Other OS option, the PS3 will almost certainly be reclassified by the EU as a games console and not a computer and be subject to an extra 2.2% import tariff in the EU, cutting significantly into their margins. I mean, the marketing guys are forcing the engineers to spend money so they can lose more money in the future? What other company would ever condone this idiocy?
Why do they have so much trouble understanding that honest people are honest and pony-up for their games and dishonest people are dishonest and will never pay for their games? Market to the honest people and forget the dishonest ones cos you'll never, ever convince them to pay for your stuff no matter how hard you lock down security.
One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors - Plato
1st of april release? Doesnt that seem a bit... Foolish?
I am very sucseptible to "let's have another drink"
I fail to see how this was the reason... Given that his 'hack' requires physical disruption on the memory controller...
Oh, I'm sorry, you didn't read the linked article.
The Bible: Historically verifiable fact from an observers point of view
The fact it's being done on "April 1st" doesn't ring any alarm bells? Maybe I just become cynical around this time of year :p
This is SONY, folks. Backwards compatibility?
Sony lie and lie and lie and people just continue to buy their products. Well, except they don't so much, these days. PSP-GO... oh dear, it's tragic how badly it's selling.
I almost want a PS3 for God of War 3 and FF13, but crippling restrictions and Sony's "f**k you" attitude to customers mean I'll never put any money their way.
So... I want half my money back as this will be disabling HALF the functionality of my PS3.
You may never post of ./ again. You obviously have too high an IQ to be here. Personally I feel your gift would be better served if you applied yourself to solving world hunger... or the DRM crisis which ever you like.
/whisper DRM, DRM, DRM
Like the another poster who replied, the install another OS feature was there for tax reasons. But then someone got closer exploiting the system to enable rampant piracy on PS3, so Sony thinks its good to close the hole once and for all. The slim versions don't have the feature anyway (and the earlier ones aren't sold anymore)
Again you can blame pirates for this.
...but also switch, surely?
++ Say to Elrond "Hello.".
Elrond says "No.". Elrond gives you some lunch.
Couldn't the science community just not update the firmware?
If a firmware removes/disables/breaks a feature you don't like, you don't install the firmware.
Random Thoughts From A Diseased Mind (Not For Dummies)
YOU can blame pirates for this. I'm going to blame Sony.
Wouldn't have happened if that hacker hadn't cracked the security core through linux. You can go ahead and tell yourself that Sony is being all demonically evil here, but the truth is they are acting in response to a legitimate piracy threat. If that threat didn't exist, then there would be no reason for Sony to waste the time and effort to remove an existing function from a product.
You can blame Sony if you want. I'm gonna blame the root cause of the problem.
Their not They're....
I'll meet you at the intersection of "Should be" and "Reality"
When the Cell was first announced, I was very excited about it - I do signal processing and protocol simulation for a living, and having something with 8 powerful signal processing engines plus a dual core CPU to run the protocol stacks was just about a perfect fit. So I got my boss to approve buying a PS3 to begin evaluation on, and we began trying to find a vendor for the Cell chip (we can do our own PCB design and fab if needed).
After many talks with IBM, we found that unless you were willing to buy millions of parts, they didn't want to talk to you, didn't want to sell you the chips, didn't want to support you, here's a nice mainframe blade, isn't that good enough (NO! I need something like microTCA, not a big ass blade!).
Add to that how the PS3's Linux had really crummy support for graphics (because rather than being SMART and making the PS3 have the best OpenGL implementation out there, Sony crippled the system with a dumb framebuffer).
Recently, IBM has announced they are end-of-lifing the Cell blades, and moving everybody over to the newest Power series CPUs. So, you can pretty much bank on the Cell only being in the PS3, and maybe one or two TV sets (and even there, I would not hold my breath - until those TVs are shipping the vendors can and likely will change their minds).
While I would still recommend anybody wanting a Blu-ray player buy a PS3, and they are a decent video game platform, I would NOT recommend anybody even think about trying to support the Cell outside that platform - it will not happen, IBM has moved on, Sony doesn't want to support it.
And while there is much typical slashbot dick-waving posturing about "I'm gonna SUE! CLASS ACTION BABY! I'm gonna DESTROY SONY!" - good luck with that. You are taking a minor feature that most PS3 buyers don't even know about, that is periphery to the main function of the device, and trying to say you are in some significant way harmed by this? You expect an attorney to take on a major class action like this, for what - lulz? Against a multinational with a large army of lawyers? At best, you will get US$10 off your next Sony purchase.
What needs to happen is all the companies that bought PS3s to explore Cell programming need to start pressuring IBM and their limited set of third-party vendors like Mercury Computers to release the next generation Cell (with double-precision SPUs) on something reasonably sized and priced.
Meanwhile, flood eBay with all the now-useless PS3s they had in their clusters - drive the price down and cost Sony money.
www.eFax.com are spammers
Can you give us some citation to support this? I'm curious.
You are welcome on my lawn.
If the PS3 becomes hackable, Sony will sell a lot more units.
This is the problem when a company sells the razors and the blades. There gets to be a conflict of interest.
Anyway, my last Sony product was a miniDisc recorder about a decade ago which I bought second-hand so I could cannibalize the AD/DA converters. I don't shop with them, ever. So this is y'all's problem. You want to do business with a company that's openly hostile to you, go ahead.
You are welcome on my lawn.
i would have thought sony would be prepared to ship "other os" enabled firmware on units being sent to research / commercial outfits.
(1.21 gigawatts) / (88 miles per hour) = 30 757 874 newtons
I seem to remember that one of the reasons why Sony allowed Yellow Dog Linux was to be able to classify as a computer in the EU, thus avoiding some taxes in some EU states.
sigh... I got nothin'...
mmm... yeah... You see, we're putting the cover sheets on all TPS reports now before they go out...
...it's hacked in a month. Probably wouldn't be too hard, either. Just run the current OS in a controlled environment to figure out what makes it so special, then make a Linux distro to duplicate that. Install the new distro on the hard drive through a regular computer, then transplant into the PS3.
Wow, citing Twitter as source material. Damn, /. has sunk to new depths...
If there is a class action I will deffinatly join. I use my ps3 to run Linux and to play Bluray movies. When I am in the PS3 OS I disconnect from the network. However there have been 2 movies that forced me to update in the past or I could not even watch them. This will be how sony forces you to lose OtehrOS. The will come up with some lame excuse that to enable 3D support they need the space in the firmware that OtherOS takes up. Sony is far more deceitfull than Microsoft and Apple combined. Hopefully the BluRay of Sherlock Holmes that comes out tuesday will not force an update either, but I would put money that the first majory sony picture to come out on BluRay after they push the update will force you to update for one reason or another.
This is just step one in the overall sony plan. Rumor has it that later they plan to begin charging a service fee for PSN. That would be fine but there will be no concessions for people who have already downloaded or bought games that depend on it under the guise that they would have free continued access. Beyond that the required updates will also only be available via the PSN so if you dont pay, you wont be able to update, and if you dont update you will not be able to watch new movies that you bought. It's economic terrorism.
Couldn't the science community just not update the firmware?
Only until the PS3's they are running break. Which is scarily looking like it will start occurring soon; the community of users with early PS3's have been seeing early warning signs and ramped-up failure rates for some time now.
What they need, and probably will look for now, is a way to get "behind" hypervisor, install an alternate bootloader or some other method of loading Linux up, and go that route. And the moment that happens, the "pirates" (yarr harr fiddle de dee) will get hold of it and we're off to the races...
Never ever install anything that comes out on April 1st.
Don't be a fool!!
April Fool's Day. It could all just be a joke. After all, one of the few advantages the PS3 has over the 360 is the ability to install other oses
If you only use it as a computer I don't see what's your problem. You only need to update the firmware if you use it to play games or bluray movies.
Mada mada dane.
Seems that is the same argument about shopping with Microsoft... Their OS is a DRM dream, their console is a lemon, and so on...
You must not buy much, then. Perhaps you don't even go to Sony Pictures movies either... Because the games division has nothing to do with the sins of the Music/Movie division. The same can't be said for Microsoft's divisions...
It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.
This might be one of the main reasons they are retracting this feature. Companies are selling game consoles at a loss. The real money is made with the games they sell. If Universities and NASA are buying up your consoles as cheap processing power, that's not good for their business.
But the point is that Sony is *removing functionality after a sale*. When you sell a product, and you advertise a feature of the product, and people buy the product, you have *no right* to then remove that functionality from the purchased products.
If you bought a laptop computer from Sony, and they pushed a 'system update' that disabled your sound card, you wouldn't just say 'I can still listen to music on a music player or stereo, and watch movies on a TV', right?
"I have no sympathy for people who render some devices even useless" - apparently you have no sympathy for people who bought a product with a feature, and then the seller unilaterally decides to remove that feature after the sale.
I don't see *how* this can be possibly justified. I mean, if Sony wants to stop selling *new* units with that functionality, fine, that's their business, but you don't go removing functionality from already sold products. If not illegal, that at least goes against any common sense notion of what is permissible for sellers to do after the sale of a product.
What Sony gave us was a glimpse of proprietary computing platforms: "Sorry sir, but we will not grant you access to the graphics accelerator -- you are only supposed to be using Other OS if you want to run HPC workloads, not just to watch movies." I waited years for a hack that would break the PS3 hyperviser, so that I could use my PS3 the way I wanted to use it, as a media center, and I am not the only one.
Of course, respecting their customers is not something Sony has ever expressed any interest in, so I really should not be surprised.
Palm trees and 8
This comes as something of a surprise. Particularly because only a month ago Sony Computer Entertainment management seemed committed to the continued support of the Other OS option on the PS3
Right, because eliminating support for it on the current model hardware they are selling shows shuch strong commitment.
Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
I think this is a good time to make a disk image of your playstation hard drive.
Is the ps3 firmware stored in flash?
That said this is my last Sony product.
As I understand it, for a class action to happen, you have to have several preconditions:
1) there has to be an easily identifiable group of people to belong to the class. This would NOT be "the set of all people who bought PS3's that could run Linux" for reason #2 below, but rather "The set of people who bought PS2 to run Linux."
2) There has to be a harm to the class. Thus, just having bought a PS3 that could run Linux would not be enough - you would have to have bought the PS3 to run LInux. Moreover, the harm to you is in proportion to the time you run Linux on your PS3 vs. the time you use the GameOS - so if you only run Linux 10% of the time, you are at most going to get 10% of the price of the machine.
So the only folks who are going to be able to get ANYTHING are the people running Linux close to 100% of the time - folks running clusters, doing Cell research, etc.
And were I Sony's lawyers, I'd then ask "OK, so why are you applying the update? Unless you are playing games or accessing Sony's online network, you don't need to update. Thus, if you really ARE using this mostly to run Linux, you aren't harmed, since your machine will continue to run Linux. And since we aren't selling new machines with this ability, they don't fall under this class."
Thus, the whole "harm" aspect is shut down - thus no suit.
And even IF some set of users could show they both run Linux AND run the GameOS, then the argument would be "OK, so you run Linux 50% of the time, and so need to update. OK, we just cost you 50% of the amortized value of the box. When did you buy that? Two years ago? OK, GAAP says depreciation on that is 18 months, so it has depreciated to zero. 50% of zero is zero. Go away."
www.eFax.com are spammers
Idiot?
Well, you buy a console with X functionalities, and then Sony decides to remove some of them. If you paid for a console which can install other OS, will they return the money to you?
Figure that they want all consumers to buy the new PS3 and in the next update, they close the functionallity of playing games. Would it be acceptable?
Is it acceptable to have functionlities removed after you paid for them? Come on!
Idiot is thinking that because some people abuse something, you can remove it from legal users.
That is exactly how most people think, and is why I hesitate to use a turn signal. Most people are just rude and speed up. Reminds me of a family guy episode where an Asian lady cuts across several lanes with no turn signal.
no comment
"The next system software update for the PlayStation 3 (PS3) system will be released on April 1, 2010 (JST)" I smell a april fools joke... smells like cheese...
This needs more cowbell!!!
Or maybe sony will release/have released a special firmware to the science/military community, allowing them to keep their Other OS feature... Just a thought.
Stupidity only gets you so far, then you've gotta try
While suing Sony sounds great, it involves finding a lawyer (ideally a class action lawyer) to handle it. But here in the US, we have another mechanism: the FTC.
If enough of us file FTC complaints online, they might take note. I wrote something like the text at the bottom of this post.
The company in question is:
Sony Computer Entertainment America
919 East Hillsdale Boulevard
Foster City, CA 94404
---BEGIN FTC COMPLAINT---
Sony (as Sony Consumer Entertainment America, Inc.) sells, and has sold for several years, a popular device called the Playstation 3. Up until now, this device has two features of note:
1. It supports a feature called "Install Other OS." This allows users to install operating systems such as Linux on their Playstation 3, which many users use for scientific and other purposes.
2. It supports something called the PlayStation Network. This is an online network of gaming users and is critical to obtaining the full gaming experience advertised by Sony.
Yesterday, Sony announced (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/03/28/ps3-firmware-v3-21-update/) that they were going to disable the "Install Other OS" feature on all PlayStation 3 units, even those already sold. Users can opt out of this disablement, but that will in turn disable PlayStation Network.
Sony claims that this is due to "security concerns." These security concerns are probably that Sony realized that "Install Other OS" might allow PS3 owners to bypass digital rights management restrictions. In other words, Sony is crippling an existing product to aid in preventing users from doing something that may hurt Sony's relationship with content developers. (Users attacking the Playstation 3 may or may not be legal, but that shouldn't matter here.)
I am not an expert in the relevant law, but it seems to me that a company should not be permitted to disable functionality of products already sold, especially when the reason that they disable that functionality is to prevent their users from doing something.
"They didn't use to be...and they can be DRMed again at the drop of a hat."
What does that have to do with anything? They can't suddenly re-DRM your old purchases. If Apple decides to reinstate DRM on iTunes then the people who use it can decide whether or not to continue using their service.
In other words, it's not some looming threat that'll suddenly turn your iTunes library into a DRM minefield.
So maybe they took out the "Other OS" to finally test the hackers.
"Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"
Next will be /b/!
"Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"
"I agree with piracy in some respects, I think it's a great tool to get what you want while protesting some aspects such as DRMs, agressive pricing, inconvenience, etc..."
Wow, what a load of crap. I mean, really - that's an impressive stack of feces. How exactly is that a protest? Do you stand on the steps of Microsoft HQ with a bullhorn and announce you're pirating their product?
Of course not. You just steal it and convince yourself that you're doing some kind of good because you don't like the terms under which the product is offered to you. You're a thief, not a protester.
What terrific self-delusion you have. If you really wanted to protest you could switch to another O/S, some of which are, in fact, free of all those things you dislike about the product you're stealing. well, most of those things... if they really were inconvenient you would switch away from the MS products.
Grow a pair and own up to your thievery.
Sony might be convinced to sell them special purpose units for non-loss leader pricing and perhaps with certain game-related features disabled to prevent a second hand market for them.
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
Actually, for a long while MS Games was doing great things for the PC gaming community - bringing some pretty awesome developers with cool and innovative games the needed money and advertising power to get their games out into the world.
Then, that crashed when they rolled all those developers into the Xbox fold. Crimson Skies was followed by the pukefest "Crimson Skies: High Road to Revenge." Mechwarrior 4/Black Knight/Mercenaries saw Mechwarrior 5 canceled in favor of the crapfests Mechassault and Mechassault 2. The "Shadowrun" for Xbox? Epic Fail. Digital Anvil were forced to produce the crapfest Brute Force. Repeat ad nauseum.
MS has four big divisions: OS, Office, "Toys" (mobile OS and mobile programs mostly) and Games. Blame each in turn for their own fuck-ups.
Does the PS3's license agreement say that Sony can add or remove features at will? If so, it seems like all the ranting and noise about a lawsuit is for naught.
"Never mind that they're killing their own product. Never mind that they're destroying a potential developer base. Never mind that some of the things being developed on said platform are incredibly innovative uses of the equipment."
They're not killing their product. They're just divesting themselves of a client base that costs them money. What good does it do them to sell these things at a loss to people who aren't going to buy games?
Perhaps they could sell a version at a higher cost that would permit alternative O/S installation, but then you've got the costs of maintaining two code bases...
The vast majority of their users are not affected by this decision in the slightest. To me this looks like a smart business decision. You might not like it, but they're making a video game console for profit. They aren't in the business of selling processing power at a loss.
Imagine a marketing department deciding to remove a major bullet point from the sales brochure, does this really make sense if you want to sell something?
I almost spewed oatmeal (cinnamon and raisin, btw - yum yum yum!) all over my monitor laughing at this. Are you seriously going to contend that Linux support was a significant factor in helping customers decide to purchase a PS3?
Fanboi-itis knows no shame.
Power does not corrupt - power attracts the corrupt.
I see this sentiment a lot whenever class action lawsuits are discussed, but as a lawyer that has absolutely nothing to do with class action lawsuits, I would like to point out that one of the biggest purposes of class action lawsuits that people normally overlook when complaining about them is the deterrence effect.
Class action lawsuits are basically one of the most, if not the most, expensive form of litigation a company can endure. Even though due to the number of plaintiffs, in the end each person might only get a $10 gift card, the combined cost to the company of that are staggering.
In this case, it would be taking Sony to task, and hopefully Sony would see the error of its ways and back down. Even if that is not the eventual outcome, it sends a message to all the other bad guys out there, if you engage in this type of shenanigans, you should think twice because it will cost you dearly.
In a way, the lawyers who bring the suit are acting as private attorney generals, punishing wrong doing that may not rise to the criminal level, but affecting large swaths of the populace in a tortious fashion nonetheless. While no doubt the lawyers involve need to be incentivized to engage in this activity somehow, whether they should be rewarded as richly as they are for it currently is another issue entirely...
I saw this coming as soon as Geo blogged how he'd managed to get around some of the protection on the PS3.
The community who wants PS3-like computing power can still purchase it. You can purchase cell processor plug-in PCI cards for PCs too.
The whole feature was a bit of a novelty, except in some computing circles where it was used to save money on clusters (since the PS3 was/is sold as a loss-leader).
its a shame. I used the feature. But I hardly see it as horrible or anything.
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
Security engineering used to be about protecting people or their possessions...about 30 years ago. For the past three decades, as consumers have become more and more able to copy books, music, movies, and software, more and more security engineering work has gone into restricting access to "media." Thus, we saw AGC hacks, watermarks in music, CSS, hundreds of different software restriction systems, PDF restrictions, gaming console restrictions...these are security systems. As you have probably noticed, these systems are becoming more and more advanced -- PDF restrictions are simple to break, Kindle is not so simple.
Palm trees and 8
The problem with your analogy is that a lot of people actually use the A/C in their cars.
And how is this eroding consumer rights? They are removing a little used feature, one that I doubt by itself sold many, if any, consoles. I'm sure people will still figure out a way to run linux.. they just won't have an easy as a time because sony isn't helping them anymore, not that they were obligated to provide this feature in the first place.
And when you explained this particular feature, did any of them give a rats ass?
Compared to other consoles, Sony's is amazingly free. They allow any usb drive, any laptop hard drive without voiding your warranty. They allow usb wires for charging controllers, and let you use any cameras / mics / keyboards / mice /printers / remotes that you want.
They allow you to download bought psn games onto up to 5 PS3's, and redownload as much as you want.
They give you a free browser and don't charge you to connect to the internet / use multiplayer.
You can use any random image for wallpaper, and you can play tons of video and audio formats from either the internal hard drive or usb devices.
I steal signatures. This one used to be yours.
The question now is "Where can I buy these ARM-based desktop computers and how much are they?"
They are coming in significant numbers to the net book range. Specially since Nvidia starded its Tegra chip serie (Dual-core ARM Cortex A9 + Nvidia GPU).
Several of the major Netbook producers have announced ARM-based laptops with longer battery life.
(And they have already been popular in the homebrew world with development kits like the Beagleboard or hacker-friendly machines like Always Innovating's TouchBook).
They might not be able to run WoW (there's not even a port of Windows 7 planned for ARM). But they run enough of Linux to feature web, mail and chat (This all coming with an increased battery life), and that's what most of the people do most of the time.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Can't; the link I was going to use was 404...
Seems like a dick move, but I already found a way around it before I even bought a PS3 slim; I have a real computer connected to my television.
I don't exploit distributed computing in any way, however, but the previous "Other OS" still gimped the potential of a PS3 for it. It was just inexpensive and on Sony's tab because they're not selling a computer, they'll selling a gaming system and the fact is they have some price competition to deal with. They subsidize with the expectations people will buy games, lots of games, and lots of people do.
No love lost here for me, and besides... this will only force the hand of the homebrew community. Sony turned a challenge into a tournament and now they'll have to face that. In the next couple years we'll really see how sturdy the PS3 is.
"Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"
So very true. It's like a dysfunctional "Married: With Children" sort of arrangement among the divisions. Sad, really. But that's what happens when monolithic companies do "their thing"... generally speaking the monolith implodes and Jupiter blows up. (I may be mixing metaphors here.... but you get the idea. heh.)
It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.
No, it's not thanks to legal precedent. Legal precedent is when a case establishes a rule that can be used in future cases, and is, in effect, creating a new law.
This is setting an example, where if you do something that screws over a lot of people in a very small way, you can't get away with it just because nobody is damaged enough to care. Instead, all the aggregated damages are counted together, and that tends to be enormous.
And it's not really that big a problem that 99% of the people in the class are too lazy to care they've been screwed. As long as they can get together a few people that care, and get lawyers to represent them, then they can bring a class action on behalf of all of them.
I doubt this is one of the main reasons, if it was they'd have done this long ago. As it is, the cost of the PS3 has come down to the point where they are more or less braking even now, so any more consoles sold aren't really gonna make a huge difference to them, they'd have been better of doing this 2 years otherwise when the manufacturing cost was much higher.
But this is closing the stable-door after the horses are already let out. Since he's owned the system already, he can work on his own version-spoofing. Pulling linux support just throws a bunch of honest linux junkies into the same pool as game pirates.
Smart honest hackers with the same goals as smart dishonest hackers...
Sony is not only hurting their users' interests. They're hurting their own.
I guess the phrase "significant factor" is what you thought my comment was about. I do not believe Linux is a large or even significant consideration in the sales of PS3s. It would be a consideration if I were going to buy one. With the feature removed it is a definite lost sale and others in the Open Source community feel the same.
It is strange to watch people throw money away yet I've seen it happen many times.
I'm going to guess this is Japan Standard Time, what with Sony Corporation being headquartered in Minato, Tokyo, and Japan being such a big market for the PS3.
As the owner of a "Slim" PS3, I'm hoping that this prompts a complete crack of the whole HV system, so I can eventually install Linux on this thing. No, I don't want to pirate games or anything like that, I just want the ability to run a better browser on it.
One did, and asked if they could get a PS3 like mine, another wishes they had PS2 support, but can live without it since they have a PS2.
...nobody calls me "kneejerk!"
The days of running Linux on consoles is way past over. It all started with Micro$oft holding this feature back from the XBox 360 (a feature that first appeared in the original XBox). This was a long time ago.
Dear Sony,
I am writing to complain about the new 3.21 firmware update. I went through a lot of trouble to obtain a 60GB PS3, partially for the backwards compatiblity with PS2 titles, and partially for the Other OS feature. As an electronics hobbiest, I built it from parts out of non-working systems, as this was far cheaper than the alternative (essentially paying someone else to do the same for me) although still more expensive than buying a Slim. Then the unit was stolen in an apartment robbery just as I finished work on it, and I did it all again. I have, in total, spent a little over a thousand dollars on PS3 systems, parts, games, and accessories (and the games and accessories were all purchased new.) One of the main features I intended to make use of was OtherOS.
I almost didn't purchase a PS3 at all because of the XCP debacle some years back, as this demonstrated a certain contempt for customers as well as an astounding level of arrogance, not to mention an overall lack of responsibility on the part of a trusted content provider. In fact, the aforementioned has caused me to look at other brands first in most product categories. The fact that you are releasing an update specifically to remove a feature, and not to address any of the numerous bugs on the system (such as the web browser that seems to freeze the system habitually during use) only serves to reinforce the notion that you still hold a certain level of disdain for your paying customers.
I really wish that I could treat my customers like criminals after they've paid me their hard-earned money and cancel services they've paid for once they're no longer convenient for me. Of course, I'd be out of a job, and most businesses would close down if they acted in such a fashion. I really don't see why you can't update the hypervisor to close the hole, or simply be content with the fact that first-gen consoles are becoming harder and more expensive to obtain compared to their newer kin - as well as the fact that the only exploits that currently exist require advanced skills and delicate modifications to the PS3 hardware. Instead, you're putting your normal users through the risks of a firmware update simply to remove a feature they know nothing about, and you're simultaneously telling a small but highly taltented niche that you no longer want their business, and - most troubling - that they won't be able to continue using their systems as they're accustomed WITHOUT resorting to hardware modification.
I do hope you realize that the hobson's choice you've presented your advanced users with is only going to encourage significantly harder and more in-depth work on finding workarounds for every last ounce of security your system has. The majority of the users you're disenfranchising are the type who have little to no fear of taking a soldering iron to their PS3, who in the past would've been happy to dabble with their interests within the confines of the sandbox you provided. You've just given them a reason to do so. I myself am probably going to break out the soldering iron in the very near future.
The funny thing is, every time attempts are made to squash potentially threatening technology, said technology always gets a lot more attention than it did before. Remember the MP3 format and the Diamond Rio PMP? DeCSS? How about the significant step forward in CD ripping techniques that came about as a result of the efforts you and others made to obliterate Red Book compliance as thoroughly as possible, even to the point of your own XCP debacle? Most people had never heard of the PS3 exploits before Marth 28, but now some individuals with a high level of skill and a lot of time on their hands are very, very motivated to change that. When piracy on the PS3 finally does become a problem, I hope you'll be able to rest well with the knowledge that you initiated the chain reaction yourselves.
April Fools, but this is a little early and it looks like though not a joke, it is quite foolish, I purchased a system that had this functionality, they're removing it; could you imagine Microsoft pushing out an update that made your pretty duel boot fail forever?
I think there are enough consoles to be consider a 'class' and I paid a lot more for my fat PS3 than the current rate, maybe a refund to match the current stripped model is due.
Unix, an obscure operating system developed by bored researchers in an attempt to get a better game playing experience.
Glad to see you're in complete agreement.
How much is the PS3 now; about $400 AUD? I can get a second hand PC with a 3 Ghz processor and at least 1 Gb of RAM for less than that. Some places will include an LCD monitor in that price, although if they don't, a refurbished one of those will cost you $100. With that, you can do everything that you'd want to do on a PS3 running Linux, and no soldering iron required. The last console I owned was a CBS Colecovision; for me it's been all PC ever since.
I know; I'll probably also get the usual illiterate, Trotskyite, Eurotrash 14 year old from Stallman's drone army, spluttering in rage in response to this, but I really don't care. If you're one of the people who is obsessed with the cool factor of running Linux on devices which weren't intended for it, I'd suggest you get a life. If you're also one of the brainwashed cultists who thinks that the entire planet needs to be brought under the unholy dominion of Richard Stallman, then again, get a life. Forcible deprogramming might help in the latter case, too.
But Sony are needlessly being evil, corporate douchebags about this, I hear you say? Tell me something I don't know. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if such was part of Sony's corporate motto; being enthusiastically evil at every possible opportunity, is fairly simply what they do.
The answer is simple, though, Slick. Vote with your wallet, because being the corporate reptiles that they are, that's all they care about.
I had Linux on my PS3 within a day of purchasing it. I knew it would run it and I wanted the extra functionality. It (and Linux on the PS2 before it) meant that we could make do with a cheap windows box for everyone else, who could use that machine more often with less sharing necessary.
I was really eager to install Yellowdog Linux. I even bought a larger hard drive for the console for it.
I think I used it once. I gave up when I discovered how neutered it was by Sony's hypervisor. :(
It was for ME. I can't say how big of a percentage I belong to here, but for me, it was the tipping point. I don't own many game systems. I have an Atari 2600 and an SNES. I read about the PS3 - standard USB ports, standard memory card slots, support for Bluetooth Keyboards and mice, uPNP media player that can play XviD, Blu-Ray.. it was all very nice but then "Able to install Linux without hacks, and can switch back and forth between Linux and Game OS." Awesome!
Of course, it turns out that they totally nerfed the Linux support by not allowing access to the GPU. It's not as if I wanted to run 3D games - I just wanted a damned decent double-buffered V-Sync video display. But it's still a cool thing and I do use it on occasion.
So basically, I won't install any more updates, and that means I won't use their store to buy any more of the TV shows or games they have available on there. Oh well for them.
The most disappointing aspect of all of this is that I've really enjoyed my PS3 a lot and I've been a pretty good advocate for it, but this sort of thing - and the fact that their patch to fuck us ended up breaking a bunch of systems - just ruins the whole thing.
Leave it to Sony to fuck up a perfectly good deal.
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
Do you really think that the sales of PS3 units for these purposes even makes a little tiny dent compared to the total number of PS3's sold?
I mean, does NASA have a secret stash of 600,000 of these things or something?
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
I bet you're a school teacher, that will punish the entire class if one kid throws the eraser.
And your example is stupid, because something like Subscription compares 1:1 to a massive functionality change? This comparison would be more akin to "You must now load OtherOS only from the Game OS. Other OS will no longer be able to be launched automatically." Instead, it's "You can no longer have a subscription to demos and such. In fact, you can now no longer download demos at all. No more video, no more demos, no more downloading."
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -