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School Shooting Prompts Legislation To Study Violent Video Games
New submitter seepho writes "Senator Jay Rockefeller (D-WV) has introduced a bill directing the National Academy of Sciences to lead an investigation to determine what impact violent video games have on children. Senator Rockefeller commented, 'Recent court decisions demonstrate that some people still do not get it. They believe that violent video games are no more dangerous to young minds than classic literature or Saturday morning cartoons. Parents, pediatricians, and psychologists know better. These court decisions show we need to do more and explore ways Congress can lay additional groundwork on this issue. This report will be a critical resource in this process.'"
This legislation was prompted by reports that Sandy Hook shooter Adam Lanza was a gamer. A draft of the bill is available online.
When you have an anti-religious, secular bureaucracy and secular judiciary seeking to drive God out of public life, something fills the vacuum. And that something, you know, I don’t know that going from communion to playing war games in which you practice killing people is necessarily an improvement.
Huckabee:
We ask why there is violence in our schools, but we’ve systematically removed God from our schools. Should we be so surprised that schools would become a place of carnage because we’ve made it a place where we don’t want to talk about eternity, life, what responsibility means, accountability?
My work here is dung.
And watches the same movies, and listens to the same music. Yet we're the only ones with a mass murder fetish, and the shittiest mental healthcare. Media isn't the problem.
Is Rockefeller going to distribute copies of his driver's license with a Batman photo pasted over his face, too?
Everything is better with chainsaws.
...right along with gun owners, we are at the twilight of those two industries unless we put this to a stop. Logical people know video games and guns don't cause violence - crazy assholes do. But as long as we're willing to be vilified, we will be picked to pieces in the chaos.
Endless war, militarized police, drone strikes, torture, gangster lifestyles, and overall general violence, it is all a contributing factor to devaluing life.
But let's ignore the real problem: mental illness. Lets blame guns and video games.
Adam Lanza's mother received nearly $25,000 a month in alimony, maybe the should study the connection between receiving ludicrous amounts of money for no reason and violence in children as well.
The shooter played Star Craft. Not a FPS, not some blood and gore style of game, but a strategy game. Its about as violent as chess (ok, it has a bit more blood then most chess games).
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
There have been reports that Adam Lanza obsessively played Call of Duty and Starcraft before he went on a shooting rampage at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., last Friday.
Starcraft? Seriously? That breeds killers?
...of why these mass murders are not being caught by the mental health system? Before we jump to conclusions and condemn the tools used by these insane criminals, we need to find out WHY someone would want to commit mass murder and WHY the mental health system is not catching these people long before they commit these acts of murder.
"They believe that violent video games are no more dangerous to young minds than classic literature or Saturday morning cartoons."
Classic literature and Saturday morning cartoons are, in many cases, bloody as hell. And people have gotten plenty hysterical about them in the past.
But hoarding guns and spending your time on a shooting range apparently isn't.
This looks more like a case of "shit happened, we need to blame somebody" than actually trying to solve anything. If a violent video game is going to turn someone violent it's more likely as a result of a preexisting condition.
They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance. - Terry Pratchett
is how nobody understands that in roman times, medieval times, heck, even just 100 years ago, mankind was peaceful and loving
ever since these video games came out, murder has gone through the roof /sarcasm, for the sarcasm impaired
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Good, so we can finally put that myth to rest. Or by "study" do they mean "find some evidence that shows a correlation between them no matter how faulty the logic may be"? I'm guessing it's supposed to be the latter. After all, you can't earn many political points by commissioning a study that doesn't allow you to create a scapegoat or enact some laws to crack down on the "problem", and the fact he is proposing this now means it is, most definitely, a political move to create the appearance of action (never mind most of the time what should be done is nothing, because bad shit happens sometimes).
"None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
If there is an actual link between real world violence and violent video games (and I am skeptical of that) then maybe the violent video games merely reflect the world we live in. Saying violent video games cause real violence might be like saying that Brain Injury causes Football. (American type football.) After all, a link has been established between football and brain injury.
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
Really? Julius Caesar played violent video games? Ghenghis Khan? Al Capone?
Legislation passes, researchers arm themselves to the teeth, accidentally snuff themselves during oral hygiene operations.
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
has anything better to do. Who cares about the fiscal cliff?
Preventing events like this is equivalent to trying to stop lightning strikes. In fact death by lightning is more common.
"To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "
We have bloody idiots who are standing in the way of actually dealing with these problems by promoting ridclous scapegoats to push an agenda that doesn't even make an ounce of sense when even remotely scrutinised.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers
1949: Unruh, Howard Barton, 28; 13 killed, 3 injured
1958: Starkweather, Charles, 19 & Fugate, Caril Ann, 14; 10 killed.
1984: Huberty, James Oliver, 41; 21 killed, 19 injured.
Violent video games, right?
See also: list of books not allowed in school/public libraries
Yes, the rest of the world plays the same violent video games, same movies, same music. And yes, the rest of the world may actually take care of their mentally ill. But there is one big difference between us and the rest of the world.
We have the mostest, biggest, baddest guns.
(Baddestest?)
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
...by funding a study that determined how the Rockefellers have conspired against humanity for their own greedy and nefarious purposes.
Of the many contributing causes to American violence, I don't think video games are an especially high priority. But neither do I think the possibility can be ignored. These attrocities have to end, and we should all be willing to consider all potential causes. I love video games, but if a thorough and valid scientific inquiry shows a causal or aggravating relationship between violent video games and real-world, violence, then I would be willing to accept restrictions on sales to minors.
I will be insistent that the NRA and other pro-gun groups contribute constructively to the debate and possible solutions, and be willing to compromise, and gamers need to be part of the conversation too.
By all means, let's not over react, and knee-jerk reactions are not helpful, on either side of the question. But there are no sacred cows.
Why aren't we looking at keeping the crazy people themselves off the streets? As someone who has known someone that was mentally unstable and worked with their doctors to have them committed it's next to impossible to have an unstable person committed involuntarily. Typically the best you can do is 3 days, and beyond that nothing can be done unless they are an /immediate/ risk to themselves or others.
The standard needs to be changed to indeterminable risk to themselves or others, as this would make all the difference in the world in keeping unstable people off the streets and the rest of society safe. The standards are simply too stringent and by closing the institutions we have gotten rid of all of the economies of scale that allowed unstable people to have access to the physical and mental health care that they need. The result now is that the mentally unfit are homeless and society isn't protected from the unstable. The idea that this is somehow more 'humane' is ludicrous.
Yes, because video games are totally the only thing violent in our society. /news/, totally don't display graphic violence at all. Nope.
Books, movies, cartoons and hell, even the
The problem is never what's on the screen, it's the mental idiot that decides he should bring fantasy into reality.
What do I know, I'm just an idiot, right?
Children in Britain play exactly the same video games that American children play and they don't run around shooting each other all the time. America has a culture of gun violence and until that changes these terrible events will keep happening.
Let's try to keep deadly weapons out of the hands of crazy people, hmmm?
Even the NRA shouldn't have a problem with people properly securing their firearms.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
As a gamer, I would welcome any real study that examines the link between video game violence and real world violence. That said, a study that has as its aim the goal of finding such a link is worthless. And I suspect, based on Rockefeller's quote, "They believe that violent video games are no more dangerous to young minds than classic literature or Saturday morning cartoons. Parents, pediatricians, and psychologists know better," tells me that the answer has already been decided, and that any study undertaken at Rockefeller's behest will not accept "there is no link" as a possible outcome.
It's like watching a broken record player.
Here's an idea... How about researching what drove him off the deep end? Or how he managed to amass such crazy weapons so easily?
But no, instead we just get another round of political masturbation where Politicians try to make it look like they're doing something without actually doing such.
*facepalm*
Yes, the religious right does that -- and the extreme left does it too. You don't have to look at only one extreme to see all the hate being generated. Your post is an example of yet another one-sided hate spewing viewpoint.
... or both.
Our recent politics on all sides have generated the idea that anyone who disagrees with the One True Viewpoint is either Evil or Stupid
A pox on all your houses.
The way to combat such stupid, ignorant hate is to stop doing it!
But there is one big difference between us and the rest of the world. We have the mostest, biggest, baddest guns. (Baddestest?)
Switzerland issues fully automatic assault rifles (real assault rifles, not just "scary looking semi-autos") to every mentally competent male of military-eligible age. The type of weapons that are incredibly difficult to acquire in the US (for those of us not obscenely wealthy, anyway)
By your reasoning, Switzerland should be a madhouse of old-west style gunfights; I'll leave it to you to discover whether or not that is the case.
But there is one big difference between us and the rest of the world.
Indeed, and you already pointed it out:
the rest of the world may actually take care of their mentally ill.
There's the real issue at hand.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Every time something like this happens, they try to blame video games for it. Other things too, yes, but one of the main targets is video games. I know the point is to pretend they've accomplished something, but people see that, right? It's like professional wrestling... we all know it's mostly soap opera mixed with some jumping around in speedos. How long can they keep this up? Imagine the time and money wasted for these people that are doing this. Think about all of the other issues that have been ongoing that they are ignoring to rush for the attention grab. I would like to think these people are not really that out of touch with the public that they think something like Starcraft would make him want to murder innocent children. If they are that out of touch, it's time they retire from politics.
FTA:
"'Recent court decisions demonstrate that some people still do not get it. They believe that violent video games are no more dangerous to young minds than classic literature or Saturday morning cartoons. Parents, pediatricians, and psychologists know better."
If all the parents, pediatricians, and psychologists already *know* that violent video games are causing violence in children, why bother wasting money on a study to show what we already know?". I am not sure the Senator or most politicians in general realize what the point of a scientific study is. You do it when you *don't* know they answer and want to find out, not when you have already decided what the answer is and fabricate a study to support your prior conclusion. You have to use like real science and real statistics and stuff to ensure your study is as objective and free from bias as possible so that the answers are somewhat close to being true rather than merely supporting your position.
What is shocking to me is not that people would try to use BS science for political reasons. It is that they are not even trying to make it look like real science. The only reason I can think of why they don't is that they don't even know what real science looks like, so they can't even fake it.
It's like we have a bunch of people running the country that are at the intellectual level of mediocre high school students practicing to be adults through mock trials and model united nations.
America's first and deadliest school massacre - in 1927 - no games or guns involved. Games don't make people crazy, and if guns are "controlled", mass destruction can still be utilized, and it will make it harder for law abiding citizens to stop them.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster
Indeed, the amount of gun violence in the US is disproportionately higher than any other country on earth.
[citation needed]
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Saying this man killed his mother and then a bunch of children and teachers because he played video games is about and logical as saying he did it because he ate fatty foods, so we need shut down all McDonald's. There is no link whatsoever, beyond the fact that somebody wants to milk the events and the heightened emotions it is generating for their own crusades. Tighter gun control would not have stopped a determined and unstable man from stealing guns to go killing. Even if there had been no guns, Im sure he could have found another way. Hell, this was the 2nd deadliest elementary school killing because the deadliest used a bomb.
This really is getting ridiculous. I am getting really tired of all the politicians and lobby groups trying to spin this tragedy to their own agenda.
Common Sense isn't as Common as people think...
As a philosopher, I would assert that some pieces of classic literature can be very dangerous: children may learn how to think.
Not that I have a high degree of confidence in the Federal government's ability to assess threats. After all, even without this massacre, statistically one person dies to gun violence every 20 minutes in the USA. That's one Sandy Hook massacre worth of people before I get up for work, every day. But I can't buy buckyballs because 0 children died after swallowing them. Good going there, Federal government! Way to "protect the children!" I'm sure filing a suit against the buckyballs guys will surely save 0 more children over not filing that suit! Oops! 20 minutes have passed! I guess that means another person just got shot!
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
The cause wasn't that the shooter played video games, the cause wasn't that the shooter had shot a gun before. The cause was that this guy seriously had some mental issues. You can't fix humanity.
Look at China, they've got some of the strictest gun control laws in the world. They've got censorship of nearly everything and yet this happens: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2248054/China-stabbing-22-children-elderly-woman-stabbed-outside-primary-school-Chinese-knifeman.html
You've got to strike at the root cause which is the mental issues. Not guns, not knives, not baseball bats, not video games, not comic books, etc.
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
And so is another billion people in the world that don't go outside killing each other.
Actually, psychologists know better... only the ones that know that is better a kid that relieves its anger on a shooter than the one that keep it growing until they find a real gun.
Guns don't kill people!.
But more guns will help kill people who kill people.
So we need to legislate fewer games where people use guns to kill people who kill people! Also those games where people don't kill people, because they're gatway games. We also need to allow people to carry guns to kill the bad guys!
But movies are okay. It's a different kind of violence. As long as they don't show a woman's nipple.
I think I understand the position now.
We have an unhealthy fascination with guns in America. It stems from our enshrinement of that oh so important "right" to own a gun. We will never touch the 2nd amendment but we keep chipping away the 1st 4th and 9th.
This is yet another case of certain people using a given tragedy to push their agenda.
The folks who already have an anti-gaming viewpoint are always going to use a given media event like this to push for bans on / studies on video games.
Last time I checked, it wasn't a troubled teenager taking out their peers, it was a legal adult slaughtering defenseless children. You can study the effects of violent video games on children all you want, but it's not going to address a situation like this. Maybe someone might have legitimately wondered about the connection between the Columbine shooters and video games, but I believe the studies that came out then pretty much said that "batshite f-tards will be batshite f-tards with or without video games" (I may be paraphrasing a little)
Ok, so I don't know either, but just really??? sick bastard ADULT shoots children and someone's proposing studies of video games effects on kids? Yeah, yeah, this guy was a kid once, but honestly - it's pretty obvious that this is yet another "We gotta do SUMTHIN'" knee-jerk response that politicians feel the need to whip out so they can seem like they're taking action... without actually threatening the interests of their donors.
For the record, it's my opinion that anti-gun folks are pretty much doing the same thing - they're going to take every opportunity to push gun laws regardless of the actual situation - they do it because it's how you move an agenda forward - throw it up against the wall enough and something will stick sooner or later.
The Digital Sorceress
Move to Iraq, anon.
IMHO anyone who wants to "blame" something that has no will of its own for the acts committed by something that does should not be included in the conversation.
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
Canadians manage to watch movies and play video games without shooting each other. Regardless of the reason why someone picks up a gun, the problem is that they are still able to get one when they are not fit to have one. Issues about mental health and culture SHOULD be addressed, but I think the NRA and other pro-gun people are going to use those things as diversions to the real issue.......keeping automatic weapons away from most people.
Yeah, you are right! Those people with sub-one-million slashdot UIDs really are whores. Something should be done I tell you!
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
Senator Jay Rockefeller (D-WV) is introducing a bill to beat dead unicorns.
Besides, research has already been performed. Unless there's some real need to conduct yet another study, the funding is better placed elsewhere.
Who cares what effects violent games have on children? If you don't want your kid playing such a game, then don't buy it for them! It's that easy. Plus it's not like they can do it in secret.
The Internet King? I wonder if he could provide faster nudity.
Instead of people taking responsibility for their actions, let's blame something else! Its the high cap magazines! No! Its video games! No! Its movies! Its all guns! Its assault rifles! Its the Democrats! Its the Liberals!
For fucks sake, talk to your kids. Teach them hobbies. Show them from right and wrong. If they have mental issues, sort them out. Take the proper precautions like locking up weapons they may use to hurt themselves and others. I have a four year old at my house. The Mossberg is locked up separately from the ammo. My handgun is in a place he can't reach. When he gets a few years older he will be taught the guns are, at least where I live, a way of life. We all open carry. We reload our ammo. We go to the range often. Teach them the responsibility of owning a firearm. It all start with the parenting.
Someone needs to stop this research!
The first study of violent video games was never completed because the researchers ended up killing each other after being exposed to just one minute of play.
Think of the researchers!
I suggest getting people to watch this video. That, among other things, is brought up.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
Then Video Games, but nothing said about violent movies. When Video Games are banned, they will ban toy guns, or any type of violent toys. Will they just give everyone a pill to remove violence from out thoughts?
-- By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out.
as long as it comes with a 100% ban on personal gun possession.
While at one time they used to issue 50 rounds of ammunition along with it they no longer do. And 90%+ of the ammo that was issued has been returned when requested. You can't buy more, and purchasing another firearm of that type is impossible, and handguns are very difficult. Hunting rifles and shotguns are about it. So a society that has been shown to be responsible is given a gun, and one that is showing it isn't should not be. Trust is not only something you have to earn, but you have to be able to keep. Our forefathers earned it, the current batch not so much.
This has nothing to do with video games. The kid was mentally unstable and his mother trained him in the use of firearms. If that is not a recipie for disaster I don't know what is so stop blaming video games. Maybe not teaching a mentally challenged individual how to use firearms is the message to take away from this tradegy.
Chris Sheppard
If you want to have a reasoned debate you cannot selectively use facts.
Wikipedia tells me that for the past five years, Switzerland has only permitted 2,000 of those with military issue weapons to store ammunition at home. Prior to that the ammunition was strictly audited. It's hard to kill using a gun with no bullets. Prior to 2007, the auditing requirement would make use of the weapon rare.
You also neglect to mention that the weapons are issued to civilians who have undergone military training. This is not like turning up at Walmart and buying a semi-automatic.
Comparing gun use in Switzerland to that in the US is like comparing chalk and cheese. Unless you're suggesting as a solution to gun crime that everyone of age should be conscripted to receive military training and the government should be allowed in private homes to audit your weapons?
Guns are banned in Mexico, and many other violence plagued countries, yet...
Newsflash: shit that happens when you are a child affects what you do as an adult
It's still a pile of bullshit, but throwing shit at shit doesn't solve anything.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
When bringing up Switzerland in a discussion about gun control, you're being dishonest unless you also point out a few things:
1) For someone to have a gun, they need to serve three months in the military where they'll be evaluated and trained
2) The population of Switzerland is smaller than that of New York City. Sample size matters.
3) The poverty in Switzerland is half that of the United States.
And finally, Switzerland's voters are increasingly in favor of tighter regulations and ending the military-gun-at-home policy.
I'm also a bit unclear about some of the ammunition laws in Switzerland. While guns are easy to come by, it seems the ammo is more controlled than it is in the United States. And, the free ammo that the militia get only contains 50 rounds, sealed and numbered.
-David
Where have you found an extreme left even existing in the United States? The Communist Party USA has like, 50 members.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Ban video games with guns, while letting everyone keep real guns? Yeah, that makes sense.
I'm not American, but I've worked there for a while. And back home I keep up with the news about the US.
I fail to see that hate-spreading-left you talk about. All I see is crazy people from the Republican Party spreading hate and intolerance, promoting ignorance, forcing their warped puritan religious views on others, but promoting extreme selfishness, against the very basis of the religion they claim to love so much.
Most of those people would be considered mentally ill where I live.
I played a lot of Carmageddon in high school. I had better just hand my keys in...
"but money is the God of Algiers & Mahomet their prophet." - Rich. O'Bryen June 8th 1786
Oh, and if you look at the list of homicides for 100k people with guns Switzerland is the next highest "western" nation after the US. 2.97 to .77. ~ 4:1. Granted, not too bad. Now compare that to Japan which has about the most strict laws of .01, or 1:77 of Switzerland. Which is the larger impact?
http://bluntobject.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/violencegraph1.jpg
anyone got a continuation of this famous graph?
Switzerland issues fully automatic assault rifles (real assault rifles, not just "scary looking semi-autos") to every mentally competent male of military-eligible age. The type of weapons that are incredibly difficult to acquire in the US (for those of us not obscenely wealthy, anyway)
Switzerland's gun control is very different from ours, but is more strict. For one, while they issue automatic rifles to militia members (generally at the age of 20), those weapons are either returned or converted to semi-automated at the end of militia service, at the age of 30. There is no longer any at-home government-issued ammunition. Purchase and distribution of ammunition is highly controlled; for the most part it's only available at shooting ranges and only for use at those ranges. A carry permit is required to have the gun in public at all, and generally you can only get those if you work in security.
I find the school shootings to be similar to the rashes of teen suicides that follow the media coverage of a teen suicide. There are lots of other teens that decide to copy the first suicide to get the attention that they did. The media got smart and rarely covers teen suicide like it used to to help cut down on the copy-cats. The school shootings are just the new version of that. The person is thinking of suicide and wants the attention. Regular suicide won't get it, but the shooting spree suicide gets lots of national coverage, which one would you choose. When the media stops covering the school shootings, then the homicidal/suicidal people will need to find a new way to get attention. It doesn't solve the underlying problem though, the mental health of the suicidal person. I still think it would go a long way to keeping young people in school safer though. You can't ban the news coverage though, as that's a first amendment right. It needs to be a decision of the news people themselves.
-- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
i see a lot of posts on good old slashdot here saying that "the real issue is clearly mental illness" (to quote one of many).
so but, .. male.
according to Mother Jones,
of the counted 62 U.S. Mass Murders in the past 20 years,
38 of the 62 (61%) showed signs of mental illness,
while 61 of the 62 (98%) were
which correlation do you think more strongly deserves attention.
The idea that our society is incapable of handling violent videogames or media, but infallible with regard to possessing and handling professional military weapons is beyond absurd.
They should do a study on overbearing legislation and its effects on mental health. I'm sure they won't like what they find. When everyone except criminals are living in a padded box because doing anything is illegal... well, what do you expect?
So how many rights are we going to have to give up this time? Did we even have any left?
Whatever happened to crazy?
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
The current violence over there only began when you guys invaded it, so AC has a point.
Recent comments demonstrate some senators just don't get it. I don't understand why he thinks "Parents, pediatricians, and psychologists know better" I've never heard of a single study that indicates games cause violence. In fact I've seen studies that claim the exact opposite. That is violent video games give people a release valve.
One recent example: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/12/data-helps-rebut-the-violent-video-games-cause-shootings-argument/
Switzerland issues fully automatic assault rifles (real assault rifles, not just "scary looking semi-autos") to every mentally competent male of military-eligible age.
What I really find weird as a European is that gun loving Americans always tend to point to Switzerland. I think there is a lot of misinterpretation regarding swiss gun politics as it totally different of the situation in the states.
* There is mandatory yearly training for people that are a member of that militia.
* As of 2007 they don't issue personal ammo. Only special rapid deployment & military police has ammo stored at home.
* When a person service is ended and he wants to keep the weapon it is first sent to the factory to remove the automatic feature. * The sales of automatic weapons and silencers is forbidden.
* To carry a gun you need to have a "Waffentragschein" permit which in most cases is only given to private persons working in security
* To buy a weapon as a private citizen is regarding permits and background checks not that much different as in most European countries. Switzerland is also a Schengen country.
The swiss gun politics in no way is that similar as in the States.
Indeed, the amount of gun violence in the US is disproportionately higher than any other country on earth.
[citation needed]
I have no citation that the statement is correct, but here is citation that it is wrong:
List of countries by firearms related death rate.
If you sort on gun-homicides, you will see that the USA is 14th. Most of the "winners" are in Latin America.
What do you mean you can't buy more?
If you can buy hunting rifles which can be chambered in the same caliber how do they know if you are buying it for the SIG or the varmint gun?
How about they do an actual worthwhile study to show:
A. What effects religious brainwashing have on people (ie. members of the WBC); and
B. How the underlying psychological effects of these mental cases (murderers, religious loons) can and do alter a person's behavior and sense of reality without ever being exposed to video games--just shitty parents, maybe combined with some kind of "hidden" mental problem.
Indeed, the amount of gun violence in the US is disproportionately higher than any other First Worldcountry on earth.
FTFY
citation
But not all is bad. In homicide rate, you're right below Zimbabwe. Take that, Zimbabwe! Festering shithole you!
...and I am as surprised as you, but I am almost completely serious now. We need NRA for gamers. We need:
No. Because. Fuck You. Association.
Only then we can have some peace. For the record, as a kid, I played most of the violent games of the day. I am hardly a violent person; in fact, I am mildly derided for not being aggressive. Maybe I had a proper outlet..
But what do I know. I am just a mass of inluences in the culture that propagates violence at every turn.
I know. Maybe we could ban wars. Wait, I know. People cause wars. Maybe we could ban people. That would prevent wars and violence. No people. No violence. No problem...
This post is provided without warranty as to reliability, accuracy or otherwise or fitness for any particular purpose.
They also issue knives to their army with corkscrews and magnifying glasses....
Lets see, classics: Romeo and Juliet: Massive family feud between two wealthy "merchant" families, resulting in street battles and pub brawls with deaths. Ending with two main characters committing suicide. King Lear: King splits up kingdom to his daughters based on who loves him the most. Two of the three daughters conspire together and lie to get the largest shares. King disowns daughter who didn't lie. Once having the kingdom, the 2 daughters proceed to treat their father like crap, and plot to kill him. The good daughter goes to war with the other two. Good daughter is executed. King finds out his good daughter was executed, dies from grief. King's good servant commit suicide to continue serving the King in the afterlife.... Hamlet: Brother of King, kills the King, and then marries his now dead brother's wife. The son of the original king confronts his mother and can't believe that she would marry her former husband's killer. Girlfriend/lover of the son/prince commits suicide because the prince declairs that marriage should be outlawed in rage of what his mother has done. Oedipus Rex: Son/prince kills father/king. Marries mother who he is in love with.... No, there was no violence in classic literature, as long as you don't consider child molestation, incest, rape, murder, and suicide violent....
We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
Why is that not a requirement?
Esp if:
1) You have a semi auto
2) hi cap magazines
3) children
4) any mentally challenged occupant in the domicile.
Make the owner(&next of kin) liable if that cabinet is accessed and its contents used by others.
H.
Games are an activity that you can play solo, so perhaps socially isolated children resort to videogames. Being socially isolated is a symptom (cause?) of emotional issues. This does not mean that healthy people cannot play games. Its the old correlation does not imply causation. There may be a connection, but the danger is that videogames will make a handy scapegoat regardless.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland
Don't get me wrong, I think the way the Swiss (and several other Nordic countries) handle their gun laws is probably the best way to go about it; however, considering the US government's recent track record, I don't trust them to enact such measures in a fair and even manner.
Which is, ultimately, the issue American firearm aficionado's have with restrictive gun laws - history has shown us that men with power ought not to be trusted.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
I've been playing call of duty since it came out, I've played almost all of my friends also have played these, I also play paintball where you shoot people for real so I guess that's worse. I've never owned a real gun and don't want to. This is the so stupid, you might as well get rid of movies, books, theater, newspapers, and any type of media. Then you might as well lock up anyone who witnessed a violence because they would be affected by it as well and might go crazy as well.
As sure as the sun will shine tomorrow you can count on politicians crawling out of the woodwork. Rockefeller is an idiot and he is wasting taxpayer money debating this. Even if video games did cause teenage boys to run out and shoot people (it doesn't) there is no way to prove it. What's next? Ban violent movies, and music videos? Might as well ban sports too because of all that violence in football and boxing and MMA and hockey and God knows what else.
The problem, as I see it, is that congress is unable to pass meaningful legislation. The republicans are wed to the NRA and Christian Coalition. The democrats are wed to the unions. Back in 2008 congress had the McCain sponsored bill to ban assault weapons and it never passed. If someone wants to have a gun for protection that's fine but I can't think of a single valid reason for any private citizen to possess an automatic weapon. Yet the republicans can't get behind it because of pressure from the NRA.
All you get is grandstanding by the likes of Rockefeller. Blaming video games is simply idiotic.
I'm not European, so I have a very limited picture.
But in light of all these economic problems, it sounds like not issuing (and taking back) the ammunition is more of a matter of money than anything else.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
Ok, I'm going to get modded to hell for suggesting this, but I can't help but to wonder. I read all these comments from non-USians about how this is a US problem, not a video game problem. So, ok, the rest of the world consumes the same video games, same movies, same news broadcasts, pretty much same everything. So what's different?
It's not even gun laws that are necessarily different. Look at Sweden.
What's different is that we mutilate the genitals of boys at birth.
Why can't we have a study to see whether there's a correlation and causation there between circumcision and tendency to violence and extreme emotions? I heard over the summer that the rate of circumcision is down to something like 50%, so we should have some populations to gather data from.
It seems to me that it's more likely than causing the forming mind of an infant to undergo an experience of indescribable pain might be more potent than any violent or disturbing video game.
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Adam Lanza brushed his teeth. Clearly, toothpaste causes school shootings.
For great justice.
Anectdote != Correlation.
So he was a gamer.
He was also male.
He was also 20 years old.
He was also intelligent.
He was also fill-in-the-blank.
Even if there is a general connection found between violent video games and real-world violence, it's not likely a significant factor in this case.
From current news reports (which are admittedly incomplete and possibly wrong) it looks like this shooter was mentally ill. One media outlet reported yesterday that the shooter's mother had begun the process of having him involuntarily hospitalized and that the shooter found out and was upset. The same report says the police are looking into this as a possible motive.
Perhaps the lesson here has nothing to do with video games but rather the need to improve access to mental-health resources and to not knowingly have guns within reach of people who are both mentally ill and who are under stress or who you know are about to be put in a high-stress situation where they might "snap."
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
What the hell is a "military grade" weapon and how would banning those stop shootings?
.223 Remington, a caliber too small in most states to legally shoot a deer. Meaning that the majority of hunting guns have much more energy than your so-called "military grade" weapon.
.30-06 is absolute bullshit. The idea that these "military style" weapons are somehow more dangerous demonstrates a lack of knowledge or a willful ignorance to the facts.
Banning "assault weapons" to help reduce crime is like banning red cars to reduce speeding.
The gun used in the Sandy Hook Shooting was a
These guns aren't fully automatic, they are semi-automatic, the same types that many hunters use. You pull the trigger once and it fires once. You can't hold down the trigger and spray bullets everywhere, to get those you have go to through a LOT of paperwork and they are quite expensive and because of that very, very, very few civilians own fully-automatic firearms.
These guns have detachable magazines, much like any hunting rifle, either bolt-action or semi-automatic. The magazine capacity doesn't matter all that much when we are dealing with unarmed people in a school, the 5 seconds it takes to change in a magazine doesn't make a difference in a massacre like that.
The only other things that separate an "assault weapon" from an ordinary hunting weapon is the use of bayonet mounts and some other stylistic differences, none of which make a difference when it comes to the Sandy Hook Shooting.
The idea that the gun used in the Sandy Hook Shooting is somehow more dangerous than your grandpa's
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
what about the billions of video gamers all over the world that never gun down anyone?
So sick of these fascist lunatics....
Whether you agree or disagree with a hypothesis (in this case, "violent video games cause violent behavior"), you should be in favor of scientific investigation. I am always amazed at the amount of logical fallacies that Slashdotters trot out every time video games are attacked; it reminds me of the NRA. Why can't we just say, "Interesting hypothesis, let's see if the data supports it." The only reason to be against science is if you know you're wrong and you're afraid that other people will find out.
Granted, TFA is talking about a "commission" and not a "scientific study," but it's at least purporting to look at facts (and hopefully science) in a thoughtful way. If it turns out that violent games do cause violent behaviors in certain cases, and that we could take some reasonable actions to prevent that violence, then I would be in favor of doing so. I'm not going to sit here like some gun nut screaming "You ain't gonna take away my video games!" I always thought the only benefits to giving up video games were more free time, money, increased productivity, weight loss, and a better sex life. If we could add "fewer mass murders" to the list, that wouldn't be a bad thing.
No guns are not banned in Mexico - read the second paragraph.
"For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert"
I think that is your first line of defense, and your first line of inquiry, to start with. How about Mom and Dad stop chasing what the Joneses down the street have? How about Mom and Dad stop worrying about working all the time so they can have a $650,000 McMansion like Sue and Bill do? How about Mom and Dad teaching their kid(s) to be happy with what they have and not lusting for what Bill junior has? How about Mom and Dad get over the stigma of having a conversation with their children and, you know, FUCKING TALK TO THEM - NOT _AT_ THEM? And for the love of whatever you hold dear, do not do this once they are 12. Start the conversations at age 2 - they won't understand it all then, but the topics are there and they will absorb that information. That concern. Those values. Instill in your children respect for adults, respect for others, and respect for themselves. Teach them right from wrong and how to tell fantasy from reality. Do NOT try and teach this to them when they are too old to give a shit what Mom and Dad think or believe - teach it to them from the beginning.
Tell the government to get the hell out of deciding how we discipline our children. Until and unless one is drawing blood and/or leaving bruises in places they should not conceivably be such as around the shoulders, ankles, chest, head, upper arms and so forth - basically, if it is within a few inches of the ass of that child AND this is not a persistent pattern, then fuck off and let them discipline their children. I'm not saying every child needs a spanking, but I know that my generation (late 30 year old and into 40 year old group) grew up respecting adults, authority, and without the vast sense of entitlement pervading our society today AND most - I would say 90% - of my friends and acquaintances had their ass spanked when needed. Or we were grounded and sent to a room NOT filled with every electronic marvel of the age so it was an actual punishment. We were not bribed to be quiet with a toy. We were told to be quiet or you'd get a real reason to cry... and we believed them.
I could go on but I think most people get my point. How about we start with getting Mom and Dad to be Mom and Dad and not "that authority figure I can ignore because they are never home and always working"? How about we start taking personal responsibility for ourselves and our children and stop blaming the TV, video games, and everything else BUT ourselves?
Dream as if you'll live forever.
Live as if you'll die tomorrow.
~Anonymous~
So you take away the video games from the kids, and what they do? They turn on the TV, where we have a nonstop news cycle of violence, drone strikes, wars all around the world, graphic footage of people blowing their brains out on the news; and when that "news" gets too much, you turn the channel to the movie channel, where you get more films of people blowing each other up in various gruesome ways. Video games may very well be a major problem, but singling out that one tree in a huge forest of a violence-obsessed culture seems a little shortsighted. In the USA, violence is entertainment, and we don't even think twice about it. Then everyone starts wondering why people do shit like this? Give me a break. It's not video games; it's not Marilyn Manson. It's EVERYTHING put together.
And that's before you even consider the other factors here, one of which is – surprise! – the fact that basically anyone can purchase an automatic assault rifle for a few hundred bucks. (My 21-year-old unemployed little brother owns an M-16, for God's sake.) It pisses me off, because all of these people who bang on about the Second Amendment seem to never have read it – the actual words are "a well-regulated militia" or something to that effect, not "every US citizen has the right to be armed to the fucking teeth." Furthermore, the Second Amendment was written when the most dangerous weapon available was a muzzleloading musket; a pretty far cry from an AK-47. I have no problem with somebody owning a small-caliber pistol for their own defense, or a rifle for hunting, but I haven't heard one single compelling reason why your average citizen should be able to own as many assault rifles or other semiautomatic or automatic weapons as he or she wishes. Until somebody really honestly addresses that issue and stops pissing their pants because they're afraid of what the gun lobby is going to do, the rest of the discussion is basically moot.
What baffles me through all of this is that the worst school massacre was in the 1920s. Before videogames were even an idea. before assault rifles, i want to say before tvs but not exactly sure when they made those. Obviously we have to look at mental health factors and not blame everything on outside forces. Unless someone thinks that goddamn newfangled jazz led him to murder. This is the culture that we have made for ourselves tho, where no one takes personal responsibility for their actions, your kid gets bad grades, oh thats not your fault for being a horrible parent, lets give him some aderall and he will be fine. Oh you are morbidly obese, thats ok, no amount of diet and excercise will ever solve it, you are beautiful just the way you are. Oh hey billy have an award for participation even tho you got last place, good job. Kid shoots up a school, lets blame everything else except for the kid. I remember not too long ago people were blaming rock music and dungeons and dragons for turning kids into violent satanists. We need to stop blaming every fucking single piece of new media just because we dont enjoy it ourselves. I also find it quite odd that both this shooter and the aurora shooters fathers were going to testify in the Libor case. Maybe someone should look into that a bit instead of blaming videogames and guns.
Never mind the effect of violent video games on children, I'd support a violent video game ban just to raise the maturity level of your typical BF3 server.
Of course, that probably won't help, will it?
If you want to have a reasoned debate you cannot selectively use facts.
Agreed, and that's a two way street:
Wikipedia tells me that for the past five years, Switzerland has only permitted 2,000 of those with military issue weapons to store ammunition at home.
From the article:
Re: selective use of facts - the article refers to government issued ammunition. Waffentragschein (gun permit) holders can still purchase (and, therefore, possess) non-government issue ammunition.
Pot, meet kettle.
You also neglect to mention that the weapons are issued to civilians who have undergone military training. This is not like turning up at Walmart and buying a semi-automatic.
I neglected to mention a lot of things, as they were non sequitur to the point I was making, and I'm not in the habit of needless pontification.
Regarding this point of yours, I personally believe proper training should be mandatory prior to allowing an individual to purchase any firearm.
Unless you're suggesting as a solution to gun crime that everyone of age should be conscripted to receive military training and the government should be allowed in private homes to audit your weapons?
I suggested no such thing - I will, however, recommend for future reference that you fully read and understand the premise of a post before you respond to it, thus assuring that your statements are at least relevant to the topic at hand.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
There are billions of gamers in the world who are apparently able to separate digital fantasy from reality or we'd all have perished under the wrath of their sheer numbers a long time ago. The world would now look like something crossed between Mad Max and World of Warcraft if the argument for "violent video games" held any salt.
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No, it has to do with the tool. You are wrong.
Guns are the problem. You can be a mentally ill person and run around waving a knife, and you might even kill one or two people. But everyone else will run from you.
There are nuts all over the don't go around shooting up classrooms and theaters.
Do you know why? Because they DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO THE TOOL.
The tool (gun) is the clear problem here. It is staring us in the face.
riiiiight...before the US went over there it was the most peaceful place on Earth...
Unless you actually know anything about the history of the middle east....which has, for 2000 years, been in a nearly *constant* state of war.
This should say, "There are nuts all over the world that don't go around shooting up classrooms and theaters."
While the OP had it wrong, it's not by much. Only a few countries have a higher amount of gun violence per capita.
So, citation provided.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
That's what the problem is with games and TV shows in the US today. Kids are presented with violence all the time but when a nipple is flashed there's an outrage.
Just look at the outrage caused by Janet Jackson.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
When bringing up Switzerland in a discussion about gun control, you're being dishonest unless you also point out a few things:
Maybe, but this particular discussion isn't about gun control in general, it's about whether or not having prolific firearm ownership directly leads to increased acts of violence, as suggested by OP:
Training, population size, and poverty rates are non sequitur to this particular discussion.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Yeah, man, one of these days I am going to hit the bank with all this karma I've accrued and do ... um, buy that ... uh, what exactly does that get me again? Screw it, moderate my post to -1, I don't care. I do care that some people are informed of more batshit insane politicians. I would love to see Jay Rockefeller, Gingrich and Huckabee never hold office again.
We get lots of pay outs. We rate people more often and... that's about it.
Oh, and if you look at the list of homicides for 100k people with guns Switzerland is the next highest "western" nation after the US. 2.97 to .77. ~ 4:1.
That's general homicide.
Per the Wiki article, the homicide rate involving firearms is much lower: 0.52 per 100k population.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
He was being sarcastic. You either missed it, or are quite dense yourself. The problem is the easy access to assault rifles.
The gun is the problem.
Now, I have deliberately avoided most of the coverage of this event but this is literally the first time I've heard any mention anywhere about Adam Lanza's father. And you mention him only indirectly. Before now I had to assume immaculate conception, which helped explain a lot, but now all my theories are laid to waste..
Naturally now I'm very curious. Did he have a relationship with his father? Was it close? How did his father treat his mother? With kindness, compassion and respect? Which came first: sociopathic child or broken home (indeed, I imagine if there is causation it can go either way- some marriages destroy kids, some kids destroy marriages...)?
FWIW the video game connection has been studied and reported on extensively. Two examples:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/17/ten-country-comparison-suggests-theres-little-or-no-link-between-video-games-and-gun-murders/
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/04/09/us/they-threaten-seethe-and-unhinge-then-kill-in-quantity.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm
If congress feels the need to revisit the question then I smell a pork barrel.
So long, and thanks for all the Phish
We should obviously do something about video games because you can kill so many more people with a game controller than an Armalite AR-10.
A carry permit is required to have the gun in public at all, and generally you can only get those if you work in security.
According to Wikipedia:
Seems recreational shooting is far too popular a sport to be relegated solely to security personnel.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Media, as in news media is the problem. Every time a fucked up nutcase goes out on a killing spree, there is non stop media coverage. News media glorifies the murderers yet no one remembers one of the victims. So the next nutcase sitting at home watching this is probably thinking: Man, I could do the same thing and the world will remember me!
Is this sarcasm? Is there even any correlation between mass murderers and illicit drug use?
If anything, we should be seeking medical help for the mentally unhinged instead of having the "its the family's problem" attitude we've taken. And god help us if we try to tell you how to raise your kid.
Its time we stop treating mental illness as some sort of shameful failure and as the medical problem it is, just like drug addiction. But that doesn't sell on the airwaves, and there is no one left in the news media with even a shred of integrity, which means we are going to have to do it all ourselves.
You want to stop this? Leave the guns, just charge $1000 a bullet. No way anyone can afford the 50 grand it would take to do this type of killing.
Problem solved.
sigs are for losers (except to point out that sigs are for losers)
You've missed the point: GP stated their belief that firearm violence is commonplace in the US because gun ownership is prolific. I offered a counter-example of a nation that has prolific firearm ownership, but very low rates of firearm related violence.
What you've listed are likely some of the reasons why, and speaking as a firearm aficionado, most of them are not ideas that I would necessarily disagree with implementing, granted it was done in a fair, legal, and proper fashion.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Indeed, the amount of gun violence in the US is disproportionately higher than any other country on earth.
[citation needed]
I have no citation that the statement is correct, but here is citation that it is wrong: List of countries by firearms related death rate.
If you sort on gun-homicides, you will see that the USA is 14th. Most of the "winners" are in Latin America.
Yes, facts are quite handy for disarming emotional nonsense. That is, assuming your audience has any stomach for reality.
Thanks for the info.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
no, democrats disagree with each other all the time, have open disagreements.
Right now, if you a pub and do that, you will be ignored and your career sabotaged.
You're illusion that both side are equal and behave the same way all the time is stupid. stop acting stupid.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
You may be thinking of Saturday morning cartoons of a few years ago. I got up early this Saturday and decided to go look to see what cartoons were on. Sadly, Doc McStuffins, Rescue Heroes, and Thomas and Friends was the closest thing I could find. Other channels where as a kid I would watch cartoons had paid programming or news.
Sadly, Cartoon Network seems to be one of the only channels that has real cartoons (i.e. ones with a plot that don't bother teaching lessons to preschoolers)
You do realize some of those statistics are almost/over 20 years old, don't you?
WTF, New Zealand doesn't have any data more recent than 1993? Why are they even being included?
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Most types of ammunition are available for commercial sale, including full metal jacket bullet calibres for military-issue weapons; hollow point rounds are only permitted for hunters. Ammunition sales are registered only at the point of sale by recording the buyer's name in a bound book
That quote seems to disagree with claims about ammo control being strict.
You'll also see the gun-homicide rate in the US is about four times that in Canada, which is still quite striking even after the hyperbole has been cleared away.
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
Government issue, government property, ammo control and inventory is very strict.
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
The United States has lots of extreme viewpoints, right, left, center and "other". And they all hammer their own little, ignorant hate messages.
What's wrong with circumcision? I've heard things on both sides, but never any real facts.
21st Century Renaissance Man
Which means very little when commercial sale is an option. Which wikipedia indicates is.
Feel free to link to alternate sources of information.
*sigh* Thanks, I needed another example of ignorant hate speech, ignorant grouping of people under a label and ignorant generalities about them. Just what I needed.
Yes, the military issues firearm to their militia. No one ion the us is talking about removing guns from out military.
If they want to own a gun, they must be in a security profession where it is needed, and under strict licensing guidelines.
So, lets make it so ONLY people in them military can be issued a gun, and only people who are in a security field where one is determined to be needed, and licensing happens every few years, and is very strict.
People who bring up the Swiss as proof the gun ownership in the US is safe are idiots.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
There have been guns in this country since its founding. These rampages seem to be something that started happening in the last few decades. What is the cause of them? That's the hard question!
... supply perscripting drugs with violent video games... or a military draft card...
Since the shooting, I've heard calls to weaken the First Amendment (to silence the Westboro assholes), the Second Amendment (take ALL the guns), and the Fifth Amendment (pre-emptively locking up people who are deemed "weird.") Why not just throw the entire document in the shredder at this point?
My mother always told me to never make a decision when I'm upset. I wish the people of this country would take that advice.
The way I read it, you can get Assault Rifles with a special permit. You can do it, just gotta pass that test.
I don't care if I'm wrong. I only care about everyone obtaining something from the discussion.
I remember one talking head on the evening news make the following statement, "If you don't have a gun you can't kill anybody", I'm not kidding!
The simplistic bullshit is just absurd! And that predatory opportunist Dianne Feinstein who is always looking for a way to get her face on TV, whining about "Gun Control" has a concealed carry permit and full time armed body guards!
Since the "recession" hundreds of cops have been laid off all across America and in some communities a 911 call has to be routed to a "nearby" community so in some places you might get a cop today, maybe! But remember "they" want you disarmed!
I killed da wabbit -Elmer Fudd
Good thing we banned pillars in schools.
21st Century Renaissance Man
After skimming the other posts here, I don't see where anybody else noticed that this came only a day or two after Ars Technica published a story about how statistics show a NEGATIVE correlation between violent video games and actual violence.
I understand you completely missed the point. I didn't say "both sides are equal" and I didn't say they "behave the same way all the time". But I did say that stupid, ignorant hate speech isn't isolated to one "group" and the person making such accusations is pretty likely spewing hate speech themselves -- love the irony.
...". That one person said it. The hallmark of an ignorant person is that they cannot properly spot the source of some statement and, therefore, tend to generalize.
Here's a tip. If person X says stupid, ignorant things, they said it -- not "Democrats", not "Republicans", not "those crazy
I disagree with much of what Republicans, Democrats, liberals, conservatives, religious right, et.al. believe. But I can talk with them, I can find agreements, I can understand their viewpoints even when I disagree. They are not, for the most part, "ignorant", "stupid", "hateful", "evil". The idea that one must demonize those who disagree with you in order to be right is not a very bright idea.
When we can talk to those we disagree with, when we can understand their viewpoints, then we can find a way through our difficulties. The desire to demonize ensures we can never find a real solution to our common problems.
I agree that we're becoming less violent, but the news is becoming more sensationalist and therefore people think we're becoming more violent.
This comes up a lot around the fact that it's frowned upon to let your 10 year old child walk somewhere alone in many places, even though child kidnappings are way down from the 80's when 10 year olds walking around by themselves was perfectly normal.
Why not support the study? Why not give science a chance to bear out these arguments?
Because there is no way to study this in a scientific way. You can't have a control group that gets no video games, and an experimental group that gets them, and then measure how many acts of violence occur. It is obviously completely unethical to conduct such an experiment, not to mention the rate of incidence of mass murders is so small that it simply would never happen -- your sample size would be zero.
Barring any experiment, all you can do is look at the data that already exists. And the data shows that there are very few (double digit) mass murderers, but tens of millions of violent video game players. And suppose we DO find some correlation between the two. How are you going to prove that it's causative? You can't do the experiments required to determine that, because they involve acts of violence. The whole question is pointless, and all that can come out of it is some statistical bullshit that politicians will use to justify all kinds of stupid shit.
Prior to that the ammunition was strictly audited.
For the purposes of going on a killing spree, it really doesn't matter, so long as it's in your reach. It's not like you care if they're going to audit your use of that ammo afterwards...
You also neglect to mention that the weapons are issued to civilians who have undergone military training.
People keep saying that, but what exactly about the aforementioned military training serves to limit the use of those guns in killing sprees?
Comparing gun use in Switzerland to that in the US is like comparing chalk and cheese.
You can compare it to Czech, if you want. Those guys have more than guns at home - they also have concealed carry of handguns.
Waffentragschein (gun permit) holders can still purchase (and, therefore, possess) non-government issue ammunition.
Is that actually true? My understanding was that ammunition for the service rifles (whether military full auto, or converted to civilian semi-auto) is only available for sale at the ranges, and must be used there after purchase.
His post is generally correct, if by "in public" you understand as "in public outside of specially designated venues (e.g. gun ranges)".
Sure, but Swiss experience demonstrates that even when you have a large number of citizens with immediate access to fully automatic weapons and ammunition for the same, it doesn't necessarily result in an all-out rampage and regular killing sprees. That's the relevant part - the gun control argument is that giving guns to people is inherently dangerous and inevitably results in situations like this, but we know that it's plainly not the case.
US certainly has a problem with violence, and, of course, guns are convenient tools to use for someone who's bend on violence, but they are not the cause of it. Socioeconomic policies have far more to do with it - e.g. does Switzerland has a public healthcare system with strong focus on screening and preventative measures (including mental health)?
Is their study going to take a look at this game?. For those loath to follow the link, it's a google search for "drone cockpit", a game in which you actually do live killing. I understand that some participants have become mentally ill after playing the game.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
"The idea that the gun used in the Sandy Hook Shooting is somehow more dangerous than your grandpa's .30-06 is absolute bullshit. The idea that these "military style" weapons are somehow more dangerous demonstrates a lack of knowledge or a willful ignorance to the facts."
No it isn't.
I'd love to see you shoot 30 rounds out of a bolt action .30-06 as fast as I could should out of any semi automatic assault rifle, be it an AK, AR-15 or whatever you want.
In Soviet Russia, the television watches YOU!
that there was no correlate between video game violence and real world violence with kids.
I used myself as a model; I don't care how much Halo or Mass Effect or Fallout (3) I play, I just am not going to go on a shooting spree. Correct. No ****, I win a prize.
The reason that we -- me, and *probably* (ha ha) everyone else here won't either is, because while there may be some measurable desensitization to violence, most of just aren't wired to do go off. We have impulse control.
Teenagers on the other hand, not so much. I finished this this year On Killing.
Intriguing multi-decade study primarily on WWII era to Viet Nam era soldiers' propensity for killing. A later chapter in the book talks about violence, kids, and video games. Up until that time, I thought the connection was bull****. Now I have/am seriously rethinking this.
I think it is disingenuous to think that on one hand, video games are used to train soldiers eg but there is no overlap/carry over with unintentional civilian applications. Is this a simplification? Maybe, but look at the commonalities.
All I am saying is that, yes, it can be a problem, but really it is only the tip of the iceberg -- to focus on this and not the larger issues (as so many have already stated) is maddening.
TL;DR video game violence is a (small) problem, there are larger problems out there.
another example of ignorant hate speech, ignorant grouping of people under a label and ignorant generalities about them.
You mean, like Sara Palin or Glenn Beck do?
riiiiight...before the US went over there it was the most peaceful place on Earth...
It was definitely more peaceful before. Not meaning that it was a paradise...
anything about the history of the middle east....which has, for 2000 years, been in a nearly *constant* state of war.
You mean, like Europe?
I thought Roger Ebert's comments after Columbine were interesting:
"Let me tell you a story. The day after Columbine, I was interviewed for the Tom Brokaw news program. The reporter had been assigned a theory and was seeking sound bites to support it. "Wouldn't you say," she asked, "that killings like this are influenced by violent movies?" No, I said, I wouldn't say that. "But what about 'Basketball Diaries'?" she asked. "Doesn't that have a scene of a boy walking into a school with a machine gun?" The obscure 1995 Leonardo Di Caprio movie did indeed have a brief fantasy scene of that nature, I said, but the movie failed at the box office (it grossed only $2.5 million), and it's unlikely the Columbine killers saw it.
The reporter looked disappointed, so I offered her my theory. "Events like this," I said, "if they are influenced by anything, are influenced by news programs like your own. When an unbalanced kid walks into a school and starts shooting, it becomes a major media event. Cable news drops ordinary programming and goes around the clock with it. The story is assigned a logo and a theme song; these two kids were packaged as the Trench Coat Mafia. The message is clear to other disturbed kids around the country: If I shoot up my school, I can be famous. The TV will talk about nothing else but me. Experts will try to figure out what I was thinking. The kids and teachers at school will see they shouldn't have messed with me. I'll go out in a blaze of glory."
In short, I said, events like Columbine are influenced far less by violent movies than by CNN, the NBC Nightly News and all the other news media, who glorify the killers in the guise of "explaining" them. I commended the policy at the Sun-Times, where our editor said the paper would no longer feature school killings on Page 1. The reporter thanked me and turned off the camera. Of course the interview was never used. They found plenty of talking heads to condemn violent movies, and everybody was happy."
You might say they have a well-regulated militia.
Apparently there is more recent data (and rates have actually dropped), but I can't find it on Google.
So do tell me: How many genocides have been attempted/carried out since we got involved?
Brush up on your history, Today's Middle East is nothing compared to the atrocities that have been going on there since before Christanity.
What a bunch of bullshit. Please!Please!Please! already, stop blaming objects for the death's, objects are not alive or have any conscious but we humans have both attributes. Dumb shits! Humans have been killing each other for centuries. Yeah, blame video games for Hitlers decision to wipe out 10 million people, oh wait there were no video games back then.
What about the 1920's Bath School Massacre in Michigan? # 3 bombs went off killing 38 elementary school children, 2 teachers, and four other adults with 58 injured. This atrocity was executed by the school board treasurer Andre Kehoe, age 55. Why? he was angry after being defeated in 1926 election for township clerk.
The columbine shootings, Colorado Movie shootings, and this one at the Connecticut school, all done by people who had nothing in life, felt like a bunch of losers, so they took their rage on innocent people, because life was not fair to them boo fucking hoo. Same with that Kehoe idiot. Fucking spoiled brats.
It's amazing how fast Obama jumped to blaming guns and yet he is going around the world backing up psychopath's(rebel fighters or Al-Qaeda bullshit bla bla crap) removing governments and as a result thousands and thousands of people dead including children. What happened to the fast and furious program? I read that it lead to 68 college students massacred in Mexico by drug cartels in one night same spot. Why did the FBI allow the gun owners to sell the weapons to the drug cartels in the first place?
I guess from a European perspective, U.S. politics looks like it ranges from center-left to far-right...
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Switzerland issues fully automatic assault rifles (real assault rifles, not just "scary looking semi-autos") to every mentally competent male of military-eligible age.
Switzerland also requires that said mentally competent males of military-eligible age go through military boot camp and be part of their National Guard Reserve equivalent. Once their term of service is over, the automatic capability of the rifles is disabled.
Interesting.
I'm afraid I just don't understand the linear plotting of viewpoints. The people I know and talk to cannot be plotted on a simple line. I picture all the various possible viewpoints scattered about in some kind of three-dimensional space. That whole left-right paradigm doesn't actually fit real people -- only the extremists.
You're right, guns are the most dangerous mass murder tool. Thank god the psyco's haven't figured out there are other means of killing people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Land_fire
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2003/05/14/loc_mahoney.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dupont_Plaza_Hotel_arson#Fire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childers_Palace_Fire
Guns don't kill people...donkey kong does.
Lanza's father is a corporate executive. The kid grew up in a $1.6m home. His parents were well educated. Median household income in Newtown is $90000. These are well-off people in an affluent community.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2248782/Adam-Lanza-How-classmates-remember-genius-turned-heartless-killer.html
If your comments show one thing, it is how people like you just fabricate facts to support their ideology. I find it sickening that you misuse a tragedy like this to push a political agenda.
You're being rather daft. The poor kids were murdered by pistols. Banning any kind of rifle is useless in just this case.
So do tell me: How many genocides have been attempted/carried out since we got involved?
The several estimates range from several hundred thousands to more than a million people killed as a result of your invasion. Is that not a genocide?
Brush up on your history, Today's Middle East is nothing compared to the atrocities that have been going on there since before Christanity.
That's pretty understandable. People used to be pretty uncivilised in ancient times, you know? Besides, the whole history of the US is just a pimple in the ass of the history of Middle East.
...because the media will make you famous posthumously.
This legislation was prompted by reports that Sandy Hook shooter Adam Lanza was a gamer.
He probably was also a fan of breakfast cereals. So what?
Because, clearly, a shotgun can't cause much havoc.
What, did we allow the people over there to start owning guns?
Guns were banned under Sadaam, and they remain banned. So clearly the legality of owning weapons is not the only factor in violence or even gun violence. Indeed, those people might well be better off if each family had an AK-47 in the house. It would make troops on all sides hesitate to kick in their doors and drag them off to be raped/murdered/tortured.
You also neglect to mention that the weapons are issued to civilians who have undergone military training. This is not like turning up at Walmart and buying a semi-automatic.
Hey that's a really good idea. Why not restrict gun ownership in the US to members of the militia? So you have to join the militia and receive training on proper gun ownership and the responsibilities of being in the militia before they let you have a gun. Doesn't that kind of more closely follow the intent of the constitution, you know, the whole 'well regulated militia' bit?
Hmm, I guess hunting rifles could be acquired without being a member of the militia since hunters will probably never give up their rifles, and a bolt action hunting rifle is not exactly an UZI anyway.
Interestingly enough, even Canada ranks as more dangerous (in terms of gum related homicides) than Zimbabwe.
Wow. The fact that the USA is rubbing elbows with the likes of Nicaragua and Zimbabwe should be ALARMING.
Instead you seem to be taking some sort of smug satisfaction in pointing out the fact that Honduras and El Salvador are even worse.
All you've proven with your citation is that the USA really does have disproportionate gun violence. It's a first world developed country with gun violence numbers that lump it in with countries ravaged by shooting wars between drug cartels run by despotic warlords.
But hey, since el salvador is worse, I guess your right, the the USA isn't the worst in the world after all.
Now salute the flag and be proud. U-S-A. U-S-A.
The issue was NEVER video games. The issue is the lack of gun control, anyone who blames anything else is just hiding the truth. A violent video game does not make you kill, a fucked up mind makes you kill. Video games have NOTHING TO DO WITH VIOLENCE!!! Give an idiot a gun and he'll shoot up a school, give an idiot a video game and he'll grab a gun and replicate it, so just DON'T GIVE HIM A GUN! I'm fucking sick of hearing people blame video games, schools, teachers, bullies and everything else under the sun, the issue is you gave an idiot a gun and he used it, you fucked up by giving him the gun thats it!
Circumcision kills small boys.
Circumcision mutilates small boys.
Circumcision is an assault.
Circumcision has no verified medical benefits across the general population.
Circumcision benefits people with specific medical conditions.
Those are all facts. Less factual evidence includes:
Circumcision in the US is often based on "I want my son to look like me"
Circumcision in the US is often based on "As my son's mother, I want him to have a pretty penis"
In other news, I'm a little worried by how much I know about cutting off part of a male human.
Pay a little attention. The homicide rate in Canada is nowhere near Zimbabwe. The first column lists gun-related deaths, which includes suicides. There are no data for suicides in Zimbabwe, which makes the total gun-related death rate close to Canada. There are many countries with no data for suicides, which makes the total gun-related death rate a pretty uselss data series.
Order the list by the Homicides column, you'll see the US ranking very high, just below Zimbabwe, and Canada quite a few places below.
You put porn in front of a 15 - 30 yr old male and what happens?
The incidence of rape goes down. Go check the research and stats.
But video games don't influence anything?
Maybe, maybe not. But nobody's found any causal link being playing computer games and killing twenty children. An independent honest study is worth doing, although it's going to be a difficult hypothesis to prove.
Unless of course you classify 'violent Video Games' as including "any video system in which the action is user influenced through use of a controller". Apache helicopters and drones definitely cause violence.
It's not really a proof, but violence has been decreasing in the U.S. for 20 years which is coincident with the huge increase in video game playing. So it seems a reasonable conjecture that video games reduce violence. Possible reasons include kids working out their aggression in a virtual world and kids simply having loads of fun. Having loads of fun keeps them off the streets and reduces their interaction with criminals. There might be some unstable people who confuse the real world and the game world, but so far it seems pretty clear that video games are not a disaster for public safety.
Ray Seyfarth, ray.seyfarth@gmail.com, http://rayseyfarth.blogspot.com
I keep hearing THIS solution over and over... I ain't buying it. I think this has caught fire with the folks who wish to blame anyone and anything except the free access to firearms. There are some assholes you cannot fix. There are some idiots you cannot fix. There are some folks one lab accident away from being a super-villain. And there are some folks who are going to miss a hug one day and implement their own personal doomsday plan. Reckon some readily available health care would've fixed Charles Manson?
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
What assault rifle????
You want guns to be the problem.
The problem: maniacs with unregulated access to guns.
The solution: investigate video games, and bring God back into whatever.
Never mind, you religious retards, per your own recognizance God is everywhere. We're not in the fucking power to "bring" God anywhere. But yeah, reasoning is not one of your strong skills, I get that.
Why do people keep voting for those fuckers, again?
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
Except for the fact that hunting rifle != bolt action. Other than my bolt action high caliber guns (.404 Jeffery, .416 Rigby) for dangerous game, most of my hunting rifles are semi-auto. And in an unarmed situation, the fact that the magazines only hold ~8 rounds isn't a drawback. Sure, if I was in a situation where people were firing at me, extra rounds would be nice but in a situation like Sandy Hook, the extra 5 seconds to change a magazine isn't going to make much of a difference, I mean, what is a 6 year old going to do in that time?
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
This sounds like a good idea to me. Sen. Rockefeller clearly thinks he knows how the results will come out, but I tend to trust the National Academy of Sciences to do an honest study of the subject, not just write a rationalization for someone's preconceived beliefs. If there really is a connection between violent video games and real world violence, I want to know about it. I'm not going to deny the possibility just because it conflicts with my preconceptions. And if they conclude there's no connection, maybe Sen. Rockefeller will even accept that. (Yeah, right, but I can still dream!)
Disclaimer: I'm a gamer. And frankly, I find some of the more violent games out there pretty disturbing and choose not to play them.
"I'm too busy to research this and form an educated opinion, but I do have time to tell everyone my uninformed opinion."
Comparing gun use in Switzerland to that in the US is like comparing chalk and cheese. Unless you're suggesting as a solution to gun crime that everyone of age should be conscripted to receive military training and the government should be allowed in private homes to audit your weapons?
Which one of you can tell me who Charles Whitman was.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Indeed, the amount of gun violence in the US is disproportionately higher than any other country on earth.
[citation needed]
I have no citation that the statement is correct, but here is citation that it is wrong:
List of countries by firearms related death rate.
If you sort on gun-homicides, you will see that the USA is 14th. Most of the "winners" are in Latin America.
The US is in the same league as third world nations. There's no point in saying "yay, Philippines and Colombia have more gun murders" because the Philippines and Columbia have serious civil insurgencies. Compared to other nations with a similar socio-economic status it's a huge difference. The US homicide rate is over 4 times greater than the next first world nation, Canada (CAN 0.76 / USA 3.7 ).
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Not picking on you particularly geekoid, more on the general responses to the whole Swiss gun ownership debate: must be nice to live under the protection of the American military without paying for it. Without it you'd have a lot more people with guns running around there.
This, Notoriety matters to the super-villain.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
For all the Gamers here in WV, We are sorry, we will vote him out as soon as we can. -_-
Sorry, I'm not a person. I'm a smart human.
You're forgetting the bible. There is a lot of nasty stuff in the bible.
~X~
I've killed millions if not billions of people in video games but I have only killed a few hundred in real life.
Clearly killing in video games does not cause you to kill in real life.
The Official Site of 1337 Pwnage
Don't believe the per-capita numbers.
I have a quarter of the guns in America, so the numbers are skewed.
-- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
Also, even with government issued guns, Switzerland has half the guns per capita of the US.
It seems to me the only people besides those with serious mental problems that can not distinguish between reality and fantasy is the religious minded people in the world.
Video games are fantasy. They are NOT real. Sure, some people live as if their online lives in games matter in real life, but then we got people that think some invisible dude in the sky is going to let you in his big ass resort of goodness after you die. We got people that think if they set off a suicide bomb that they will get 100 virgins in Heaven.
The problem isn't video games, the problem is that acceptance of stuff that isn't real, as being real.
I never thought things on TV was real. Even as a kid, and as I kid in the 70's, the TV was my babysitter for most my growing up.
You want to help stop stuff like school shootings to happen? Then make healthcare free for everyone. including mental health. We can try to help people that have a bad grasp on reality and a better chance of seeing the warning sides. I'm not talking locking up people that are suspected they might go batshit crazy, but instead make sure those people are getting the help they need mainly in times of stress, like they lose a job, etc.
Worse, Obama talks about how kids are the future, and yet he wants to spend trillions in wars and not spend money building up our schools and giving the children the help and care they need to be.
Everyone knows what the problem is, but it's cheaper to throw money at other things (the usual scape goats, like Gun Control and Violence in Video Games, then to actually make sure American Citizens have a support system to keep this from happening.
Be seeing you...
Note the false equivalence in your post. Religious right = extreme left. You have to look to the farthest fringes of the left to find what is routine among the establishment right-wing. That isn't an equivalence.
I'm not even sure what you're arguing about, I was reading a bunch of posts about banning guns before I came across this.
Lanza was also a vegan, yet you don't see politicians clamoring for investigation on the potential mental health effects of veganism (B12 deficiency which is common among vegans can lead to mental disorders).
Lanza was on Prozac, yet you don't see politicians asking for investigation on the potential mental effects of Ritalin, Zoloft, Prozac and assorted powerful drugs.
Why this fixation on guns ? Why never investigate any other trail of evidence ?
Maybe we deserve this world ?
"and I'm not in the habit of needless pontification."
You mean like that?
Yep, reality is the US compares to some of the most war-torn and violent places on the planet. Yay! It's only the 14th worst country for gun homicides.
Funny, because Saddam committed all those crimes using US supplied weapons and had US blessing.
Ban alcohol.
Also the shooter probably watched sexual/violent/whatever TV program. ban TV. ooooohhh this is a fun game ! Can I participate too !?
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Unless you have money, no one wants to help.
Lots o' money in the SSRI biz, its just too bad murder/suicide is a "rare" side effect.
They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
I should point out that Justin Bieber is a lot less popular here in Ireland than in the US.
This is the same BS that they always say when there is a shooting: we will study the effects of violent games, we will check the gun laws, NRA backs out a little while the storm pases. Then is back to BAU. Legislators and authorites are to affraid of lawsuits that they wont do anything to help the persons with mental illness even if they know there is a risk.
Switzerland has 14 times the number of gun related deaths (per head of population) than that of the UK where guns are much harder to acquire. So although Switzerland may look like a peaceful place compared to the US it still has a significantly worse gun problem than equivalent European countries:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
Don't forget to look at the statistics as well, the gun related death rate in CH is NOT insignificant:
They have the second highest rate of gun related deaths in Western Europe, just below Finland. That's 14 time the number we have in the UK.
Ban spoons!
Okay, let's re-phrase it, the US has the highest rate of gun related deaths in the first world.
You are less likely to get shot in the Philippines, South Africa, Nicaragua or Zimbabwe to name just a few.
Another reactionary bunch of bullshit to point fingers are everything but the people actually at fault here. The mother had the guns available, trained a child with some mental issues how to use them, and then everybody scratches their head wondering if violent video games had anything to do with the guy going ballistic on his mom and unfortunate bystanders.
Why can't bad parenting simply be the problem. Why can't studies start up to improve the quality of parenting? Why is it impossible to for many parents to accept they suck at raising children?
I haven't thought of anything clever to put here, but then again most of you haven't either.
I'm talking about all the hate I'm reading here. There are lots of people who are so willing to group "others" under a label and then ascribe to that "group" all sorts of attributes such as "stupid", "evil", and assign various opinions and statements to them -- and then hate "them" and spread that hate.
That's ignorant, incorrect and not helpful.
Half the country thinks the other half is ignorant, stupid, evil. That is, Republicans seem to think Democrats are all that. And Democrats are sure that Republicans are all of that. Neither attitude is correct and that viewpoint ensures we will never find solutions to our problems.
I never said that various extreme viewpoints are "equivalent". You just want to create that strawman so you can "win" against him. That's nice, but neatly avoids confronting what I actually said.
And, you are an example of what I am talking about. You are happy-happy-happy to demonize a group you apparently know nothing about -- except what you have been told. While I am not, in any way, religious, and definitely not conservative, the fact that you paint everyone who is Republican and religious as "extremist" simply means that you are part of the problem.
If you only talk to people who agree with you, you will remain ignorant. If you talk to people who disagree with you, you will learn something.
Ah, never mind, I'm talking to the problem.
http://youtu.be/MaF9nbLo8as (Caution! NSFW)
I'm curious, did you mean to miss my point entirely, or was this an incident of pure ignorance?
Yes, the military issues firearm to their militia. No one ion the us is talking about removing guns from out military.
If they want to own a gun, they must be in a security profession where it is needed, and under strict licensing guidelines.
You didn't even read the Wiki page, did you?
Sport shooting is one of the most popular sports in Switzerland. So, unless you honestly think that the majority of Swiss people are "security professionals," that concept doesn't hold water.
So, lets make it so ONLY people in them military can be issued a gun, and only people who are in a security field where one is determined to be needed, and licensing happens every few years, and is very strict.
Or, you know, we could do the smart thing and train people to use guns, instead of resorting to the typical kneejerk, emotional reaction that does more harm than good.
People who bring up the Swiss as proof the gun ownership in the US is safe are idiots.
People who can't make their argument without resorting to childish name calling and personal attacks have no valid argument to make.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Switzerland issues fully automatic assault rifles (real assault rifles, not just "scary looking semi-autos") to every mentally competent male of military-eligible age.
Switzerland also requires that said mentally competent males of military-eligible age go through military boot camp and be part of their National Guard Reserve equivalent. Once their term of service is over, the automatic capability of the rifles is disabled.
Right - proving my point that the issue in America isn't the presence of firearms, but rather the lack of proper training requirements.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Waffentragschein (gun permit) holders can still purchase (and, therefore, possess) non-government issue ammunition.
Is that actually true? My understanding was that ammunition for the service rifles (whether military full auto, or converted to civilian semi-auto) is only available for sale at the ranges, and must be used there after purchase.
Seems you are correct, per Wikipedia:
Certainly, though, there are exceptions for concealed-carry permit holders.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Prior to 2007 members of the Swiss Militia were supplied with 50 rounds of ammunition for their military weapon in a sealed ammo box that was regularly audited by the government. This was so that, in the case of an emergency, the militia could respond quickly. However, since 2007 this practice has been discontinued.
Re: selective use of facts - the article refers to government issued ammunition. Waffentragschein (gun permit) holders can still purchase (and, therefore, possess) non-government issue ammunition.
Someone else contradicted this elsewhere by saying ammo can only be bought at ranges, but even if it isn't true, there is a world of difference between giving gun permits to trained members of the army reserve - people who've proven themselves to be of sound mind and body, among other qualities - and the US approach of letting anyone who isn't demonstrably insane or criminal buy as many as they'd like.
That is correct, but it is by no means a contradiction of what I said (i.e., I never specified where the ammo could be purchased/possessed).
Also, there is an exception for concealed carry permit holders.
The situation in Switzerland is not even remotely comparable to the US situation, which is one big reason why the don't have the homicide rate you do, or the frequent mass killings you do.
Indeed - the Swiss actually train their youths in proper firearms use and maintenance, and when someone does something bad with a gun, they hold the person responsible instead of blaming the tool.
Pot, meet kettle.
Please god let this obnoxious phrase pass into the history books.
Good luck convincing people to stop saying shit that warrants such a response.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Not the point.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
By your reasoning, Switzerland should be a madhouse of old-west style gunfights; I'll leave it to you to discover whether or not that is the case.
And my point was that relatively speaking, compared to it's neighbours with lower levels of gun ownership, Switzerland has very high levels of gun related deaths.
Define "nearly constant". 33 years is the longest stretch without a conflict in the history of the US. That sounds like near constant to me.
33 years? of 237?
Vs. how many of 2000 years? (I bet you can count them on one hand...)
So, if modern video games are to blame for people's violent behavior because they are acting out what they see, how come there were no incidents of people wearing blue and red suspenders and hitting things with large hammers or large apes kidnapping women back in the 80's?
-- Senior Software Engineer, Attorney appearance services, locallawyerapp.com.
It was more Peaceful, dammit! Stop throwing things like actual *facts* at me! I don't care if they were busy killing each other...they were doing it with *our* weapons...which means they were being peaceful!
Yeah...
That's it...
Right?
I really do love the extremes some people will go to in order to keep themselves from admitting they just might possibly not have been correct.
FWIW: I misread your OP. Specifically the "current" bit...so I take back my disagreement on that specific issue. But any claims you have made regarding it being "peaceful" in the middle east are well, still quite laughable.
Sorry, maybe I misunderstood but you said:
By your reasoning, Switzerland should be a madhouse of old-west style gunfights; I'll leave it to you to discover whether or not that is the case.
And my point was that relatively speaking, compared to it's neighbours with lower levels of gun ownership, Switzerland has very high levels of gun related deaths.
Overall gun death -. A figure that includes suicides, which are non-sequitur to the discussion of firearms-related attacks.
Try sorting by homicides and you'll see a completely different picture.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
And the same holds true for about any other place that actually has that much history. Do you think Europe was free from warfare for very much of the last 2000 years?
I also think you are unfairly extrapolating current events to 2000 years of history. In the middle ages the Arab world would have looked on the west as the backwards tribes of warring people that didn't have the same level of knowledge of math and science.
This is all off point. daem0n1x was being a douche to imply that everything was fine and dandy there before the US arrived.
I'm actually pretty sure the middle east has been "The Place To Go" for religious war, terror, death and persecution for over 2000 years now... ...and I really cannot think of any other location on this or any other planet that has seen as much bloodshed and death...which considering the religious fervor of the folks in that region...says far more about religion in general than I ever could. ;-)
I'm not saying we in the west are "Angels" by any stretch. I'm not even saying we're better. We just haven't gotten on that kind of a roll yet. Give us time...
Hmm... not so much. Switzerland still has gun related homicides ~13x higher than the UK
... so ban drinking water to prevent extermination of millions of innocent people.
Also make sure you have tax payers foot the bill for enforcement.
Coca Cola will fund the study.
I never said it was peaceful. I said it was "more peaceful". You're trying to use a straw man against me.
Was there any active conflict in Iraq at the time of the Baby Bush invasion? Has Al Qaeda ever set foot there before said invasion? So yeah, it was definitely "more peaceful" at that time. The American invasion was completely illegal and unjustified. Like all American interference there, the only result was to make things worse.
the same people have the same studies conducted to achieve the same effect as they always wanted to have but have so far failed to achieve
anders breyvik killed A LOT MORE people and he claimed to have been an avid world of warcraft player, so there you go blizzard, it's not violent games, it"'s dumbed down games who are to blame
i think the media uses headlines like this just to spark a surefire discussion on the same topic with the same arguments over and over, internet media need traffic after all and slashdot has maybe finally turned into mere 'media' ?
i know a possible soution here : sell videogames only to people who don't have guns?
or just acknowledge that in the breyvik shooting probably 20-30% or more of the victims played the same games the killer did and leave this old world of yours to die and this new world to start growing from under the festering plague you provided as birth ground here
always the same discussion, yet, even i, in all my flawlesness fall for it again
Free speech was meant to be free for all... how can anyone grow up in a nanny state ?
stop this /. myth that "there is no left".
just stop it.
this is semantic game, and a very droll one at that. no one when talking about this country and saying right or left cares about comparisons to other countries outside our own border unless they specifically say and make a comparison to said other country.
any time a poster starts talking about right and left in the US, you'd have to be an idiot to not make the immediate conclusion that the terms are references to relavtive political positions within just this country. republicans are generally to the right and dems to the left on the right/left spectrum used within our country.
this "there is no left" crap is idiotic and only makes you look like a fool
The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
not true. germany china australia and france, and others, tend to ban or require edits to many games.
The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.