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Ask Slashdot: Should Employers Ban Smartphones?

An anonymous reader writes "Due to a concern that smartphones (and other electronic devices) could be infected with malware and used to spy on sensitive information, my employer has recently banned all personal electronic devices from their spaces. The concern comes from articles like this one. My question to slashdot readers: How reasonable is this concern? How can this sort of malware be prevented from showing up on our devices? Is there a way to educate employees about preventing this sort of thing rather than banning the devices altogether? This current reality is that people have started to rely on having their smartphones with them at all times for things such as receiving emergency calls from day cares and schools, making personal calls during normal working hours (i.e. to make doctor's appointments), accessing password managers, and scheduling calendar events."

510 comments

  1. No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You have asked an audience that knows just how ingrained smartphones are to our everyday lives. The last half of your question is a "given."

    The burden of proof is on the employer to show that no other mitigating measure can address the risks. Summarily banning child protecting, emergency-aleviating technology, not to mention the tools with which we coordinate the rest of our lives, is truly bad form and will bite the employer more often than they know.

    If you are working with sensitive documents, these people will remove the camera from your iPhone for $20:
    http://www.iresq.com/iphone-camera-removal.html
    Want to do the whole office? A 79 cent roll of electrical tape will do the trick.

    The problems are solvable and worth solving. That management favors solutions that are simply a matter of writing policy, is in their nature, so don't sit in the dark and bitch, fix the bulb.

    1. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The burden of proof is on the employer to show that no other mitigating measure can address the risks.

      My current employer has banned all personal cellphones and personal laptops for some time. It is really not that hard to get around, and the burden is not on them to prove anything. You are paid to work and presumably want your job. If not having your pacifier with you at all times makes you that uncomfortable, find a different job. Or you can give out your work number for emergencies or set your cell phone to automatically forward calls during business hours to your desk phone. If you need to make a personal call that you do not want to/cant make from your desk line, go out to your car during lunch and make it.

      That management favors solutions that are simply a matter of writing policy, is in their nature, so don't sit in the dark and bitch, fix the bulb.

      So if a concern is the microphone on the phone you have no problem filling that with epoxy?

    2. Re:No persuasion required by tepples · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you need to make a personal call that you do not want to/cant make from your desk line, go out to your car during lunch and make it.

      What do you recommend for people who use public transit instead of driving to work?

    3. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They haven't banned phones, just smart phones (aka personal computers witht their own unregulated Internet connection) . Get a $10 prepaid phone and forward your calls during the day. Leave the smart phone in your car and go out there to make personal calls at lunch if the employer won't allow reasonable personal use of your work phone. Problem solved.

    4. Re:No persuasion required by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 0, Troll

      My current employer has banned all personal cellphones and personal laptops for some time.

      Of course, you don't need that sort of technology for flipping burgers.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    5. Re:No persuasion required by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      You are paid to work and presumably want your job. If not having your pacifier with you at all times makes you that uncomfortable, find a different job.

      Exactly. And if the company can't find anybody competent to fill your role, it's their problem.

      The only thing wrong with this argument is that companies always go screamming to the government, asking for help.

    6. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Intel for a long time banned flash drives, cameras, PDAs, laptops, etc. Presumably this would also apply to smartphones and other devices today.

      They were righteously worried about their trade secrets, designs, etc. making their way out into competitor's hands.

      So basically, yeah, if your company has any serious trade secrets, technologies, etc. they're right and should be worried about other devices as well however their apparent reasoning is partially(at least) for the wrong concern.

    7. Re:No persuasion required by Minwee · · Score: 5, Funny

      What do you recommend for people who use public transit instead of driving to work?

      Death

      I see that you work for the Muni.

    8. Re:No persuasion required by Monsieur+Canard · · Score: 4, Informative

      My company does a lot of DoD work. The policy is: no personally owned electronics may connect to company assets. Ever. We can have personal smartphones (but no notebooks or tablets) as long as they do not have a functional camera. For Android phones the only option is to remove the camera or JBWeld over the lens. For my new iPhone the local AT&T store enabled restrictions on the camera with a password only they know and gave me a letter as such. That's good enough for our security folks. It's not a perfect situation as disabling the camera kills things like having Siri dial phone numbers for me (as apparently that somehow involves Facetime) but it's better than any sort of destruction. Plus I was able to get the camera un-disabled (yeah, I know) when I went on vacation for a week and then have it re-disabled.

      --
      He took a duck to the face at 250 knots.
    9. Re:No persuasion required by PmanAce · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Summarily banning child protecting, emergency-aleviating technology

      What happened to giving them your work place number like you know, your parents did? Children were just as safe before smart phones...

      not to mention the tools with which we coordinate the rest of our lives

      I don't agree with this at all. 10+ years ago we didn't use smart phones and we coordinated the rest of our lives just fine.

      The problems are solvable and worth solving. That management favors solutions that are simply a matter of writing policy, is in their nature, so don't sit in the dark and bitch, fix the bulb.

      I think management just wants you to do your job and not have you sit there browsing facebook on your phone, texting your friends or calling for appointments while you are getting paid.

      --
      Tired of my customary (Score:1)
    10. Re:No persuasion required by jedidiah · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Unless there are genuine state secrets lurking about the company, they really should have no right to be so intrusive. This is corporate feudalism at it's finest.

      You corporate bootlickers are helping build a new Guilded Age.

      Don't say you weren't warned.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    11. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess you're screwed if you work for, say, Nokia, Ericsson, Motorolla, Apple, Samsung...tell you what, you can buy 500000 desk phones for their employees...

    12. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An employer has the right to exercise the degree of control over their workplace they so desire, provided they do so within the bounds of applicable law. That said, if they are doing so when it's not feasible to the job environment to be without the devices, then they're only harming themselves.

    13. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      The burden of proof is on the employer to show that

      Bullshit. You have no need for a personal cell phone while on the clock. If you have it listed as an emergency contact number then take 30 seconds and figure out how to use your call forwarding features.

    14. Re:No persuasion required by shawn(at)fsu · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Removing smart phones is the easiest and most secure way to handle these issues. The burden of proof is to prove that there exists ways that are just as secure. For example If you work in a DoD environment then you have to accept the possibility that you're not going to be able to bring your device in the building. It sucks sometimes sure but if the risk is information coming in or going out then this helps mitigate it a great deal.

      --
      500 dollar reward for tip(s) leading to the arrest of the person(s) who stole my sig.
    15. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A pay hike because they are allowing more parking places to be accessible, fewer people on the road, and less dino juice turned into CO2? One place I worked at even had free breakfast stuff set up for the bicyclists because the cost of catering food (as well as providing secured parking, showers, and bike lockers) was more than offset by the health insurance savings.

    16. Re:No persuasion required by Runaway1956 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Burden of proof? WTF is that all about? We have problems with phones in our plant. They haven't been banned - yet. But we have problems with people's attention being distracted from their jobs. An issue that has never been addressed at our plant, is the possibility of "sensitive" and "secret" documents being recorded. Trade secrets are trade secrets, easily recorded and sold to whoever might be interested in them when everyone carries a phone with a camera.

      There is no "burden of proof" - if management becomes aware of risk, they can ban anything and everything that they deem to be a part of the risk.

      We also suffer from vandalism. So far, it has been confined to physical vandalism of equipment. Some day, some bright boy is going to figure out that he can plug in a WIFI, and use his smart phone to introduce anything he likes to the computerized equipment. The older equipment may not recognize a WIFI device, but the newer machines certainly do.

      Bad form, you say? This is the United States, in the year 2012. Management has dismissed half of the lessons ever learned about keeping personnel happy. They don't give a damn about happy employees. There are four or five applicants for every job that opens up. They don't NEED to keep more than some key personnel happy. Even junior management is subject to layoff at any time.

      Bad form and burden of proof, you say. Either you are a very lucky person, and have a really great job where management actually thinks about you and your needs - or you're stuck in the mid-1980's. Nowadays, management doesn't even measure their turnover rates among labor, skilled labor, and trades people. Moving up the chain of command, there is a little superficial "caring" shown to the engineers, and a little more "caring" for junior management.

      More, the states are backing up employers far more than they did in past decades. I think it was Michigan that just became a "right to work" state. The employer need prove nothing - the employer rules, and you obey. There is no civil right being infringed if the employer bans your electronic toys during work hours.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    17. Re:No persuasion required by Cigarra · · Score: 3

      "10+ years ago we didn't use smart phones and we coordinated the rest of our lives just fine."

      It's quite a different world ten years ago.

      --
      I don't have a sig.
    18. Re:No persuasion required by realityimpaired · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They pay you to work, not to sit at your desk playing farmville or tower defense on your cell phone.

      My office has noticed a genuine drop in the quality and quantity of work that gets done by folks who screw around with their cell phones when they're supposed to be working, and has banned them at your desks. Put it on stun, and put it in a drawer. On your own time (breaks/lunches), it's allowed to come out, but as a courtesy to other people who *are* supposed to be working, they ask that any phone calls/whatever you make be done in the hall, lunch room, or outside.

      How is that intrusive, or corporate feudalism?

      And for any emergencies, I have a company-provided e-mail which can be used, and I have a desk phone which people can call.

    19. Re:No persuasion required by 1u3hr · · Score: 1

      Summarily banning child protecting, emergency-aleviating technology, not to mention the tools with which we coordinate the rest of our lives, is truly bad form and will bite the employer more often than they know.

      The same load of wank I hear whenever people make excuses for why they NEED to have their phones on in a cinema. I believe every mobile phone has a redirect that can send phone messages directly to any other number. You have a phone on your desk?

      And "child protecting"? Right. If you are Jack Bauer and your daughter has been kidnapped again and you have 43 minutes to rescue her.

    20. Re:No persuasion required by element-o.p. · · Score: 2

      10+ years ago we didn't use smart phones and we coordinated the rest of our lives just fine.

      What are you doing on /.? Back when I was in high school, there was no public Internet access, and we managed just fine!

      Times change. Expectations change. Communication mediums change. There are technologies available to allow BYOD in a safe manner; we are starting to look into such tech where I work, since we understand that, like it or not, employees WILL be bringing smartphones and tablets into the workplace. You can either recognize that people are going to bring their own devices to work and structure your networks and applications accordingly, or you can stick your head in the sand and pretend it isn't happening. One of these allows you to manage the risks; the other will catch you unprepared when the inevitable happens. Your choice.

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    21. Re:No persuasion required by John+Hasler · · Score: 2

      "The only thing wrong with this argument is that employees always go screaming to the government, asking for help."

      FTFY.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    22. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      If you need to make a personal call that you do not want to/cant make from your desk line, go out to your car during lunch and make it.

      What do you recommend for people who use public transit instead of driving to work?

      Turn it off, if your boss has a problem with that then he can provide a secured locker for you to place it in instead. Your phone has call forwarding, send your calls to your work phone. Fuck, it's a miracle anybody managed to find their dick to take a piss prior to having a phone the way you idiots talk.

    23. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's pretty funny considering that iOS is so frequently jailbroken and rooted. The reality is the only thing keeping you from using your camera is your honesty and desire not to pilfer national secrets.

      Anyone else with that letter can have that camera re-enabled with modest effort and without AT&T's assistance.

    24. Re:No persuasion required by schnell · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This whole question is based on a false premise that personal and corporate smartphones can't be managed. The answer is very simple:

      Are these work-mandated/provided smartphones that have access to the company e-mail/intranet system? If so, then the company needs to invest in Mobile Device Management (MDM) software like Good, MobileIron or even a BlackBerry BES and lock down which apps end users can install, what can be downloaded or forwarded, etc.

      Are these personal smartphones? Don't provide any access to the company e-mail/intranet or any other system on non-company devices so whatever malware you decided to install has no impact on the company.

      Whether personal smartphones are allowed in a business should not even be a question unless you work in an environment where employees taking pictures of documents, people or facilities is a security risk (the government has a lot of these environments), and generally in those cases you are not allowed electronic devices in those restricted facilities, period - work or personal.

      BTW the linked Washington Times article (quality news source, there) describes a proof of concept app but does not describe the platform(s), attack/delivery vectors or anything else about how you would actually hijack a phone in this way. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't get approved in Google Play, the iOS App Store, or any other reputable app source. So if your employers are afraid of that, then they need to up their med dosages.

      --
      "95% of all Slashdot .sig quotes are incorrect or completely fabricated." -Benjamin Franklin
    25. Re:No persuasion required by Tauvix · · Score: 2

      I believe you missed the point about the "Guilded Age."

      "Gilded" means to be covered with gold, which would make no sense in the context of the post.

      He (assuming from a username of "jedidiah") was making a play on words to indicate that we are returning to a time of the medieval guilds, referencing his statement of "corporate feudalism" from the previous statement.

    26. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

      I see software developers must have modded this to +4 informative. The key word here is "personal". You don't need your personal phone and personal laptop for business work. That's why the company provides you with a phone and laptop. I pointed out that it's developers who modded this up because developers rarely understand computer security, and often are the first idiots in a company to apply a script kiddie crack to get admin rights on their laptop. "Debug isn't enough! I have to install my program after compiling it! I also have to install Diablo3_keygenV0_3,exe because it's vital for my work! I had to repartition my drive because I wanted to install MyPC@home so that I could keep up with my side-job." Debug is enough. Installing your program is what the test lab is for. Diablo3 isn't part of your job, and if it were, you'd have a valid license from us. Really? You're admitting to the last one? Let's go have a chat with HR.

      In the course of writing this, it's down to +1, so it seems some other mods are sensible, but this message still stands for the early dummies. Captcha:bemoan

    27. Re:No persuasion required by fast+turtle · · Score: 1

      Buzz:: Turn in your Geek Card and don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. Wrong as it's the employer who gets to decide as it's their systems. The employee must bear the burden of proof to convince the employer to allow them to bring in their own devices, not the otherway around. I tend to agree with the employer in this instance due to the ever increasing burden of regalatory requirements on both a State (United States) and National (EU/U.S.A) level in regards to both privacy and financial (SOX/HIPPA) compliance. Businesses are Risk Adverse for a damn good reason when there is no profit in it as there isn't in these cases.

      --
      Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
    28. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Before cell phones, the expectation was that business phones were for business use, except in emergencies. What has shifted that you expect to take care of personal business while working.

    29. Re:No persuasion required by mark-t · · Score: 1

      What if I brng it in but just leave it in my briefcase? Off, if necessary

    30. Re:No persuasion required by TubeSteak · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's quite a different world ten years ago.

      The technology may be different, but the mechanics of our daily lives haven't changed much since the wired telephone, refrigerators, and cars became ubiquitous.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    31. Re:No persuasion required by Max_W · · Score: 1

      A 79 cent roll of electrical tape will do the trick.

      Tape is messy, it leaves traces of glue.

      I would prefer a lid on the camera. On any web-camera and microphone. A physical well visible (open/closed) lid.

    32. Re:No persuasion required by h4rr4r · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You would be out of a job soon. Threaten me with violence and HR and the police will be hearing about it. I would also be calling my lawyer to prepare for that hostile workplace/unlawful termination suit.

    33. Re:No persuasion required by CohibaVancouver · · Score: 1

      The burden of proof is on the employer to show that no other mitigating measure can address the risks.

      No it's not. The employer can say 'no smart phones' and that's that. If you don't like the rule you can go work somewhere else. There's no burden on employers to prove anything.

    34. Re:No persuasion required by h4rr4r · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That is the tradeoff from expecting people to take care of business during personal time.

      It cuts both ways. You want me on call 24x7 for a week and available if you really need me other times, then I will be making personal calls on the clock.

    35. Re:No persuasion required by weiserfireman · · Score: 1

      My company doesn't do a lot of DOD work, but enough of what we do has a NOFORN or higher classification that we have banned all cell phones with integrated cameras from the building.

      Even the company president and the sales manager leave their iPhones in their car.

      We haven't tried the "destroy the camera" exception.

    36. Re:No persuasion required by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      What do you recommend for people who use public transit instead of driving to work?

      Well, for the 3-4 people in the US that actually do that....I'll be happy to loan them my cell phone when we walk out to the parking lot.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    37. Re:No persuasion required by Chewbacon · · Score: 1

      Burden of proof? Ha! My state, among many others, is a right to fire... er, work state, yeah that's what they call it. You can get fired just because you like asparagus much less carrying your banned phone at work. I work with sensitive information all the time, but it's healthcare information and is of little value to most people. But really, should you be piddling with your phone at work other than to take that emergency call? How often does that happen? If my phone gets my attention, say my wife calls me 3 times in a row, I'll excuse myself from the work area to take the call. I'd be willing to bet the guy's boss in fact gives himself such a luxury.

      And btw, I can remove the camera from my phone with a nail and hammer. Save that $20 for some beer it sounds like your boss drives you to drink.

      --
      Chewbacon
      The Bible is like Wikipedia: written by a bunch of people and verifiable by questionable sources.
    38. Re:No persuasion required by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      Children were just as safe before smart phones...

      Only because every boy carried a knife, and owned a .22, and every girl had six brothers and twenty male cousins (one of which might have been her intended).

    39. Re:No persuasion required by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      3 or 4?
      I would say 80% of our companies call center takes public transit, and at least 25% of the rest of the employees. During summer that number only goes up.

      When smart phones are being given away for nothing with service even people who cannot afford or have no use for a car will have them.

    40. Re:No persuasion required by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      That's why the company provides you with a phone and laptop. I pointed out that it's developers who modded this up because developers rarely understand computer security, and often are the first idiots in a company to apply a script kiddie crack to get admin rights on their laptop.

      I've never known a developer who wasn't his own root on his workstation at work. What's this stuff about cracking admin rights?

      I also have to install Diablo3_keygenV0_3,exe because it's vital for my work!

      That's like arguing against kitchen knives because people get regularly stabbed by them. You see how idiotic this argument of your is, and you make it anyway.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    41. Re:No persuasion required by erroneus · · Score: 1

      If an environment is that security sensitive, such requirements may be coming from slightly higher than local policy makers. If it is simply a way of exerting control over their environment, it is their choice. No burden of proof is required.

      But I will say that at my office, we have enough business visitors and enough executive users with gadgets that we maintain three wireless networks. "Business Guest," "Employee Guest," and "Business Network." (No, those are not the network IDs, just the classifications) Business guest is for clients and other business visitors to our site. The others should be self-explanatory.

      Frankly, we have more than enough trouble with just allowing business machines on our network. Users routinely do things they shouldn't do and we can't control it -- out of our hands for various reasons. So for use to put restrictions on the network is more of a feel-good effort than one truly focused on security simply because it doesn't go far enough in light of other obvious problems.

    42. Re:No persuasion required by mycroft16 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "10+ years ago we didn't use smart phones and we coordinated the rest of our lives just fine." This argument is ridiculous. It assumes that nothing in the world has changed, which is obviously flawed. It's like saying that people didn't use cars in the 1830's and still got around just fine, so why should we be using them now? Progress and innovations are made to make things easier and more accessible. Rather than carry a 12 month calendar around everywhere you go, or a planner as a separate book, now you have your email, calendar, to dos, notes, voice recordings, phone, etc all in a single device that fits in your palm. No more need for a briefcase worth of crap. Just a single phone. Sure people got along find 10+ years ago, using the best that was available to them at the time. And so should we.

    43. Re:No persuasion required by weiserfireman · · Score: 1

      More, the states are backing up employers far more than they did in past decades. I think it was Michigan that just became a "right to work" state. The employer need prove nothing - the employer rules, and you obey.

      "Work at Will" and "Right to Work" are two different things. What you are describing is a Work at Will, not Right to Work. Michigan has been a Work at Will state for a long long time. But they do recognize the Public Policy and Implied Contract exceptions. If your firing would be in violation of an Official Public Policy, or break an Implied Contract with your employer, they can't fire you.

      But you are correct, 43 of the 50 States are "Work at Will" States, and the employer has a lot of leeway to fire you for anything, if there isn't a contract in place. Right to Work makes it more likely that you won't have a contract to protect you.

    44. Re:No persuasion required by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      None of the devs here are. They will surely fuckup the machines. Even faster than a normal user.

      That is exactly what happens when devs are given admin/root. They will install stuff for home and even cracked software to use at work if they like that version better. They never think of the security or legal implications of doing that.

    45. Re:No persuasion required by Thorodin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Nice, 1950's management style you got there. You do realize that threats reduce productivity to the minimum necessary to keep a job?

    46. Re:No persuasion required by h4rr4r · · Score: 0

      Oh look an internet toughguy.

      I invite you to try it. The payday will be great. You have any idea how fast you would be unemployed?
      The Police call those "Terroristic Threats", just so you know. I would of course only be calling them so I can have even more evidence for the lawsuit.

      The moment I heard that kind of threat I would bring in the phone to get you to act out. More evidence for my lawsuit and the cops. You are literally ensuring a huge payday and/or a secure job for me.

    47. Re:No persuasion required by Thorodin · · Score: 1

      I work in healthcare also (IT). It may not be of value (PHI) to most people but CMS will fine your company if it gets out.

    48. Re:No persuasion required by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      He is no ones manager, just another internet toughguy. Here in reality HR gets rid of lawsuits waiting to happen ASAP.

    49. Re:No persuasion required by Max_W · · Score: 1

      and lock down which apps end users can install, what can be downloaded

      There is immense innovation which is coming into business with mobile apps. Locking down will stop this technological revolution for this company and it will demise quietly..

      Smartphone should have a physical well visible lid on web-camera and microphone. So that they normally closed and open only for a phone call or taking a photograph. And it should be well visible if these lids is open or closed. This is all.

      The problem is bad engineering of smartphones by monopolies.

    50. Re:No persuasion required by 0xdeadbeef · · Score: 1

      The burden of proof is on the employer to show that no other mitigating measure can address the risks.

      No it isn't.

    51. Re:No persuasion required by SydShamino · · Score: 2

      Ten years ago, when I took public transportation to work, then took a cab from work to dinner, I would be able to use a pay phone to make a call that night if necessary.

      Now, pay phones are gone, because I and everyone else have cell phones.

      Of course, you could go back and point out that in 1924 I wouldn't have access to pay phone for that call either, and I would need to catch a ride home on a trolley for a nickel to check in with the nanny. But that's just as silly as the argument you're making now.

      The world has changed.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    52. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That sounds like an awful company to work for. Fact is, employers demand longer and longer hours for less pay. People still need to do other shit in their lives despite those demands. So a complete ban on personal computers, personal internet use is just controlling and mean. Enlightened employers get higher productivity from their staff by just not being dicks. Not so hard to work out, is it?

    53. Re:No persuasion required by greyblack · · Score: 1

      Sounds like you were a terrible (but sadly a stereotypical american) boss

      --
      Everybody uses broad generalizations.
    54. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I also have to install Diablo3_keygenV0_3,exe because it's vital for my work!

      That's like arguing against kitchen knives because people get regularly stabbed by them. You see how idiotic this argument of your is, and you make it anyway.

      It is not anything like that. Tangentially, I don't think people are "regularly" stabbed by their own kitchen knives. Were you taking the argument the other way and saying bad things don't happen when you bring in software from home just like people aren't "regularly" stabbed by kitchen knives? The AC wasn't saying that bringing in the software itself was 100% bad...just not needed.

      If you for some reason have to compare a piece of software to a kitchen knife...I guess it is like if he said you shouldn't bring your kitchen knives into work because you don't need them there and they don't help you do your job.

    55. Re:No persuasion required by mabhatter654 · · Score: 1

      He meant guilded... Like a pack animal with its happy bits cut right the F* off.

      First ironically, then figuratively, then literally.

    56. Re:No persuasion required by Monsieur+Canard · · Score: 1

      Sure. Of course they can. All I'd need to do is a factory restore and not allow iTunes to restore the backup files and I'd be golden.

      But the truth is 99% of the job for security is a combination of preventing accidental disclosures and preventing malicious outside parties from trying to compromise hardware. We have clearances and there's a level of basic trust that goes with that. They'll fully admit that if someone on the inside is fully dedicated to causing problems there's not much they can do - at least initially.

      --
      He took a duck to the face at 250 knots.
    57. Re:No persuasion required by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      I would say 80% of our companies call center takes public transit, and at least 25% of the rest of the employees. During summer that number only goes up.

      I'm guessing you live outside the US?

      Anywhere I've ever worked.....I didn't know anyone that took public transport to/from work. Only recently where I'm currently at, do I see some of the custodians taking the bus that runs near here. But, they are likely only doing that because they can't afford a car.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    58. Re:No persuasion required by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      By your sig, are you bragging or just wishful thinking?

    59. Re:No persuasion required by Drethon · · Score: 1

      Summarily banning child protecting, emergency-aleviating technology

      What happened to giving them your work place number like you know, your parents did? Children were just as safe before smart phones...

      That worked when the places I worked at gave me a business number...

    60. Re:No persuasion required by Monsieur+Canard · · Score: 1

      The policy I mentioned above only applies to open areas. For closed areas it's a no-phone-at-all/leave-it-outside-the-room policy.

      The policies have been evolving though. It used to be much stricter in the days when cameras were the exception rather than the rule. Now it's an attempt to balance the prevalence of smartphones with the needs of security. The real problem seems to be that at the government level the rules are vague and poorly worded at best leaving implementation to the local offices.

      --
      He took a duck to the face at 250 knots.
    61. Re:No persuasion required by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      Children were just as safe before smart phones...

      No they weren't. Violence against children has declined significantly in recent years. It is debatable how much of this is attributable to smartphones, but children certainly were not safer in the "good old days."

    62. Re:No persuasion required by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Buffalo NY.
      Many of our employees take public transit as they cannot afford a car or live very close. I live within 5 miles and in the summer might start taking public transit as well. My household has two cars, but the cost of gas and hassle of driving make even the bus seem attractive.

    63. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "Gilded" means to be covered with gold, which would make no sense in the context of the post.

      No context except there is an actual time period in US history called the "Gilded Age" and during this time workers were exploited heavily. This was most likely a typo and not wordplay.

    64. Re:No persuasion required by cellocgw · · Score: 4, Informative

      Your company may be in the minority (on the conservative end of the spectrum). I've worked for several different DoD contractors over the years, and once they got past the "OMG phones cameras run RUN" stage, they all figured out how to allow personal cellphones, even with cameras, into the main plant area. There are rules, carefully enforced, about maintaining airgaps (and no WiFi) between personal and corporate networks, etc. There's no reason, other than panic or deep-seated distrust of your entire staff, to ban personal devices in the workplace.

      --
      https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
    65. Re:No persuasion required by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      I might be considered coarse by my language, but I will terminate someone before I stoop to threats of violence. I would terminate anyone I had that did use them, no second chances.

      The reality is, you keep that up and even in the sticks you will be paying out big one day. You might even spend sometime in the county lockup. I have lived in the sticks and the cops there would love to have someone to fill up their cells. Helps justify keeping them.

      Worse yet, you may end up dead. In the small town I worked in before this job many people carried concealed, they would not hesitate to shoot someone larger than them attacking them.

    66. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Padlock a box with a phone in it to the bike rack.

    67. Re:No persuasion required by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      While good engineering for some jobs would be useful, the bigger answer is that the whole security concern is dumb for most jobs. I understand that some jobs require high security, but most jobs very simply do not. Right off the bat, any job that allows the employee to work remotely, or take work home at any time clearly does not need super locked down, no camera, no data transfer security.

      Even for jobs that don't ever happen off site, at most jobs, any data that was wanted could easily be hand copied, or photocopied and carried out in a purse, backpack, or briefcase. The discussion on whether smartphones should be banned from the premises should only even start if the company has already implemented physical security at the front door that searches every bag and briefcase that passes through.

      In all but the rarest of cases, a ban on smartphones would be nothing but security theater. It is paranoia with delusional fantasies about how data can be prevented for being stolen.

    68. Re:No persuasion required by DougDot · · Score: 1

      Ask the good folks at Los Alamos National Laboratory: the are experts at applying epoxy to computers: http://lanl-the-rest-of-the-story.blogspot.com/search?q=jb+weld

    69. Re:No persuasion required by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      The interesting thing about your point of view is that most of the people who abuse the personal phone at work privilege are the 9-5er basic employee. The one that goes home and stays there on a regular basis unmolested by work.

      We are reviewing, again, the use of cell phones at work and I think we will come down on the side of no personal cell phones on the hospital floor - too many people spend too much time doing things totally unrelated to work to the detriment of work. Use the phone on break, not on the floor. Got an emergency? Call the main desk, we'll get a hold of you.

      Please note that family death-level emergencies are pretty rare, I can't even recall one. The typical 'emergency' is that the teenager has done something they weren't supposed to do (again) or has run out of money (again). Deal with it on your own time. We had a pretty liberal policy for a while, but there are way too many people who can't stay on the right side of the line even with prompts, discussion and clear guidelines as to where the line is.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    70. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, he wasn't. He was referring to the Gilded Age, which was marked by numerous workplace abuses by big employers against workers, and which saw the resulting & widespread rise of labor unions.

      Maybe you should go brush up on that 8th grade world history. This is pretty basic stuff, ace.

    71. Re:No persuasion required by rwv · · Score: 2

      If you need to make a personal call that you do not want to/cant make from your desk line, go out to your car during lunch and make it.

      What do you recommend for people who use public transit instead of driving to work?

      If your employer is paranoid about security, I'd expect them to have a security desk in the front of the building. If there is a security desk, I'd think that instituting a policy where the guards will trade numbered cards for phones when you enter/exit the building would be reasonable (hint: the cards correspond to numbers cubby holes where your phone is stored safely throughout the day).

    72. Re:No persuasion required by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      That is the part that the "work is for work" people seem to miss. There are jobs that are punch in at exactly 8 and punch out at exactly 5. For those, I can acknowledge that a "Time to lean, time to clean" mentality could be fair (not necessarily the most productive, but fair). For any job that you might be asked to stay 15 minutes late for a meeting, called in on a day off, or in any way deal with the job during off hours, saying that "work time is for work, no exceptions" is an acknowledgement, and act of exploiting those in a vulnerable position.

      For jobs that might actually ever be on call, it is over the top despicable.

    73. Re:No persuasion required by whitroth · · Score: 1

      Don't live in a city, do you? Work in the farther 'burbs?

      Or is it that you just *adore* spending all that time in traffic jams?

      Chicago, before I moved to DC, I remember riding the Metra commuter rail down the middle of the Interstate near downtown, and cruising by all the idiots doing somewhere between zero and 40, as we clearly were doing 60.....

                          mark "why, yes, I *am* a big city guy"

    74. Re:No persuasion required by Imagix · · Score: 2

      He meant guilded... Like a pack animal with its happy bits cut right the F* off.

      I think you mean gelded.

    75. Re:No persuasion required by DerekLyons · · Score: 2

      No, really it isn't.

    76. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh for fuck's sake.

      GELDED = "a pack animal with its happy bits cut right the F* off."

      GUILDED = "belonging to an association of tradesman."

      GILDED = "covered with a thin layer of gold;" In a historical context, the Gilded Age refers to the period between the US Civil War and the early 20th century. The term was coined by Mark Twain and Charles Dudley Warner, who satirized what they believed to be an era of serious social problems hidden by a thin layer of gold. (source)

      This is fucking basic vocabulary, folks. If you don't know what you're talking about, try to stop making yourselves look like fucking idiots.

    77. Re:No persuasion required by rwv · · Score: 1

      Management has dismissed half of the lessons ever learned about keeping personnel happy. They don't give a damn about happy employees.

      One thing I wonder... does this mean that self-employment is a happier lifestyle choice?

    78. Re:No persuasion required by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      Yep - we have concealed carry. Yep, cops like locking people up. Yep, if I worked for you, you'd probably fire me. Also - I've done and said things for which almost any employer would fire me.

      I'm still here, and I'm still doing things my way. Concealed carry doesn't bother me, the cops don't scare me, and being fired never killed anyone.

      Meanwhile, as long as I have a job, my shop will run to my standards. Simple as that. Given a choice, many people would prefer some foul language, or even an ass kicking over being fired. II think that I have things balanced pretty well. It's not like I go out of my way to find reasons to terrorize people who work with me, or work for me. We just got rid of a "supervisor" who did exactly that. If anyone in the plant ever feared me, it was that man - but I digress . . .

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    79. Re:No persuasion required by sjames · · Score: 1

      It's not the employees moaning about needing more H1Bs while refusing to revise HR practices that keep qualified Americans from being hired.

    80. Re:No persuasion required by Cajun+Hell · · Score: 1

      Unless there are genuine state secrets lurking about the company..

      Interesting that you are willing to make an exception. From here on, the strumpet and the john are just haggling over the price.

      Why draw the line at "state" secrets, not some other level of secrets? Who are you to say that the exception is reasonable in that one instance and not reasonable in others?

      --
      "Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
    81. Re:No persuasion required by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 2

      Fuck, it's a miracle anybody managed to find their dick to take a piss prior to having a phone the way you idiots talk.

      About half of humanity can't find their dick.
      And providing a phone is unlikely to change that.

      --
      Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
    82. Re:No persuasion required by Monoman · · Score: 1

      Or reading Slashdot. :-)

      --
      Keep the Classic Slashdot.
    83. Re:No persuasion required by sjames · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I know this may come as a surprise to you and the rest of corporate America, but nobody gives a crap about your secret documents. Really, nobody cares at all. Sure, it's fun to play "secret agent man', but nobody is actually clamoring for them.

      Most of your double deep dark secret methods and techniques are actually SOP at any company in your field. REALLY! The rest are obvious but only applicable to the particular situation at your company.

      If you actually had worthwhile secret documents, someone would have already sold them in exchange for a nice retirement to a tropical paradise somewhere. There was a time when employee loyalty might have prevented that, but it went out the window the day after loyalty to employees did. If your employer REALLY had secrets that were worth anything, it would pay above average, offer generous vacation time and other perks and generally treat it's employees as if they held the future of the company in their hands. But that costs money, so it's out of the question.

    84. Re:No persuasion required by snadrus · · Score: 1

      We don't even have phones on our desk now. What should I give people?

      --
      Science & open-source build trust from peer review. Learn systems you can trust.
    85. Re:No persuasion required by wed128 · · Score: 1

      Hire better devs. They cost more; it's worth it.

    86. Re:No persuasion required by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      Self employment has advantages and disadvantages. I went that route for awhile. I got out of contracting when I had a guy get hurt on the job. I simply could not provide meaningful health or accident insurance for the guys who worked for me. I was able to provide a decent wage, a pretty good work environment, training, and some small perks, but I just couldn't provide insurance. That was one hurdle that I simply couldn't overcome. To pay for insurance, I would have had to raise my estimates on jobs quite a lot, and that meant I could no longer compete with all the illegal aliens flooding the market.

      So, I got scared, and quit, and went back to working for other people, and small companies. Let the big bosses worry about meeting payroll at the same time they were providing benefits like insurance.

      Luckily, my employee wasn't seriously hurt. Lucky for him, lucky for me. I could have been paying for his continued medical care for the rest of my life, I guess.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    87. Re:No persuasion required by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      No, I've just noticed that many people are proud of their faith and cite the wise tidbits from the Bible, and I didn't want to be left out of it. :-)

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    88. Re:No persuasion required by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      They will install stuff for home and even cracked software to use at work if they like that version better.

      On a Debian box? I take it we're both talking about completely different kinds of people.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    89. Re:No persuasion required by sjames · · Score: 1

      The Gilded age was a reference to intense greed and corruption covered over in a thin veneer of gold.

    90. Re:No persuasion required by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      I think you're at least 90% correct. But, it seems that our "secrets" haven't been sold yet. I expect that they will be, sooner or later.

      Of course, half of our "secrets" can be reverse engineered in any decent tool maker's shop, and the rest can be reverse engineered anyplace the engineers are actually competent. Nothing we do is extremely technical.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    91. Re:No persuasion required by wed128 · · Score: 1

      This. If my company banned my cellphone, my resume would be posted within 24 hours.

    92. Re:No persuasion required by sjames · · Score: 1

      Before cell phones, the expectation was that at 5P.M. you are done working and have plenty of time for all the personal matters.

    93. Re:No persuasion required by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Yeah, these are windows using devs.
      They would not know what to do with a debian box.

    94. Re:No persuasion required by idontgno · · Score: 1

      If you're gonna argue about the idiocy of other peoples' arguments, you might choose a stronger analogy, or condition it properly. As stated, your analogy doesn't support your argument. "Kitchen knives" is entirely situational, and this argument is actually all about the situation, not about the tools.

      It would be perfectly reasonable to ban kitchen knives from work, if "work" isn't a kitchen. They are, indeed, potentially dangerous, and outside of the context of cooking, a completely unnecessary danger.

      And if "work" is in a kitchen, you might ban personal knives, if the kitchen provides all the kitchen tools and cutlery and management expects those to be used.

      And yes, I know that in most high-end professional cooking situations (above the fast food level), chefs are expected to provide their own cutlery. And you may see some technology settings which operate in the "bring your own mobile device" mindset. But obviously, we're not talking about that, since it's beyond stupid to simultaneously ban and require personal mobile devices.

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    95. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > You are paid to work and presumably want your job. If not having your pacifier with you at all times makes you that uncomfortable, find a different job.

      It's wonderful your current employer is so upfront about treating its employees like slaves, to the point that merely carrying around a normal everyday device and expecting to bring it into work is treated with words like "not having your pacifier with you at all times".

      Where do you work, just so I can be sure to never work there, and preferably never to business with them if I can avoid it?

    96. Re:No persuasion required by Belial6 · · Score: 2

      If you are working for the DoD, fine. For the person working in a real estate office, no it isn't. There is no security, and banning cell phones is just being a petty tyrant. The same 99% of other jobs. Heck, I have known accounting firms that literally outsource work to India. Security is always shades of gray. Going nuclear on smartphones because they are new and scary while outsourcing data entry to inmates in a prison is not being "secure".

    97. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are a bloody fucking idiot, sir.

    98. Re:No persuasion required by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      We also suffer from vandalism. So far, it has been confined to physical vandalism of equipment. Some day, some bright boy is going to figure out that he can plug in a WIFI, and use his smart phone to introduce anything he likes to the computerized equipment. The older equipment may not recognize a WIFI device, but the newer machines certainly do.

      You have fallen for the "Smartphones are scary" line. If someone can plug a wifi router into the network, they can plug a thumb sized computer into the network. No smartphone necessary. The only way that a smartphone would make this a bigger threat is that the thumb sized computer could be tethered to a smartphone, giving remote access to the vandal from home.

    99. Re:No persuasion required by Max_W · · Score: 1

      I would agree to that. The best way to guard secrets is not to have them.

      Even the mighty USA state, with all its power and technological prowess, could not guard secrets. Bradley Manning took them out on a musical CD. What about hall-alive commercial company, which is still have to produce something and pay taxes?

      The memory and cameras are already everywhere, on everything. Shall we also ban wristwatches, MP3 players, pens, future iPods, etc.?

    100. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Better secure the printer. Paperback can copy 3 megabytes per page, maybe 50MB or more if you hack in support for color images.

    101. Re:No persuasion required by cayenne8 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Don't live in a city, do you? Work in the farther 'burbs?

      I live in New Orleans...I guess that qualifies as a city. I've pretty much always lived in a city....but the only people that ride the buses regularly are the bums and lowlifes that can't afford a car.

      I mean...why would I want to spend 2+ hours on a bus with some smelly hobos, changing busses a number of times to get to work, carrying my lunch, my backpack, and possibly my gym clothes (close to work), and my work laptop, when I can jump in my car and get there directly in about 10 min or less (I tend to drive VERY fast).

      Sure, some cities have mass transit that everyone can use and works, but most cities I've lived in, either you have to ride with the less than desirables....or it is so inconvenient to have to switch buses numerous times, etc, that it just isn't worth the effort for the perceived reward (saving some gas money?).

      During rainy season (which is a LONG time here in NOLA, along with the high heat and humidity), I'd not want to be changing busses and running around all the way to work....I'd definitely not very professional coming into work rained on and sweat soaked from my many bus trips to get here.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    102. Re:No persuasion required by chris_mahan · · Score: 1

      I have a 7 year old child in school. The school has my cell phone number in case of emergency, so that I can go pick up the child. I am often away from my desk in meetings and other such things. I also would rather not use the company technology (phone, internet), since it may be monitored, in order to protect the privacy of my child.

      I guess my answer would be that I would not work at such an employer.

      --

      "Piter, too, is dead."

    103. Re:No persuasion required by Grishnakh · · Score: 2

      The world has changed. 15 years ago, in most parts of the US, it was expected in most well-paid jobs that you'd have a car to get to work. Sure, 150 years ago this was an unreasonable expectation, but it's expected now, and as a result, employers have parking lots for their employers to park in. No employer is going to last very long if 95% of their employees need to commute (by car) to work due to the geography and local culture of the area, yet they provide no place for them to park.

      Similarly, these days it's normal for people to carry around a cellphone with them wherever they go. Many (if not most) people in many industries now do not even have a landline phone. I haven't had one in about 10 years, and I was a bit of a latecomer to the cellular party myself. It's been normal for people to carry cellphones now for at least 15 years; for someone in high school, that's all they know. Asking employees to not carry a cellphone, in 2013, is utterly ridiculous, and a lot like asking them to wear 1800s-style dress to work.

      And where are employees supposed to store their phone anyway? In their car maybe, if they drive to work, but there are a fair number of people who ride bicycles in the warmer months, or walk if they're close, or most especially carpool or vanpool, not to mention take public transit (more so in some areas than others). I don't see many employers going to the expense of providing secured lockers; that's wishful thinking at best. Forwarding to a work phone may or may not work; lots of work phones are behind extensions and don't have their own number.

    104. Re:No persuasion required by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Come here to NYC and say that again.

    105. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The only thing wrong with this argument is that employees always go screaming to the government, asking for help."

      FTFY.

      We (the workers) don't have to - we'll just unionise and keep that process going until we are the government... do you prefer that option, or do you want to play fair after all?

    106. Re:No persuasion required by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      I used to work at Intel, starting in 2000. For the first year or two, they still had a policy of having the security guards check peoples' bags on the way out of the building, to make sure they weren't taking home any sensitive documents.

      It was an extremely stupid policy, because at this same time, every single employee was issued a laptop computer, which they normally brought home with them, and obviously contained lots of work data. Whoever made that policy was still stuck in the 1970s. After a couple years, they finally dropped the stupid policy.

    107. Re:No persuasion required by lgw · · Score: 1

      How would a dev not have root? Are devs actually using dev boxes that are on the domain? That's a bizarre concept. Any box I've ever gotten from IT has been wiped an given a fresh OS install as step 1 (often with IT's help - usually they prefer devs to self-segregate form normal users).

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    108. Re:No persuasion required by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Make sure that when you quit, give the stupid cellphone policy as the reason, and don't give any notice. Bonus points if they're coming up on a big deadline and you're critical to the project.

      Fuck 'em.

    109. Re:No persuasion required by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      It isn't necessary to plug into the network. Plug it directly into the machine. Our machines aren't networked, they only have the capability to be networked. A: none of our people are sophisticated enough to network them, or to realize the advantages of them being networked. B: unwittingly or not, none of our production machines are vulnerable to network malware

      But, some of our machines have the port necessary to plug a router in, directly. Once plugged in, an iPad or smart phone with WIFI has access to the machine. Of course, as you point out, things can be set up so that the iPhone can reach it from home.

      I guess my whole point is, people have physical access to the machines. It's only a matter of time until one of the vandals figures out a way to vandalize one or more of our systems.

      What makes that scenario so bad is, management doesn't see the need to keep disk images, or anything like that. An Engel machine took ill just last week. It lose the EBIAS somehow. We searched and searched, and could not find any of the disks necessary to restore the EBIAS. Engel sent us the disks we needed, but again, no one had ever seen it as necessary to make backups of jobs or parameters. EBIAS got the computer functioning, but the computer didn't know how to operate the machine. Two more days of downtime went by before we had it in operation again.

      A vandal can hurt us pretty bad, if that vandal has the know-how.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    110. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd much rather have a phone with a disabled camera than no phone...

      And since you do DoD work it seems like your employer might have genuine extenuating circumstances.

      Normally though, the only valid reason I see for a phone ban is: "Your employees are children and can't do their jobs if they have any form of electronic device around them." This sort of ban is really common in low wage jobs, especially ones where idiots (consumers) come in and assume that someone spending two minutes on their phone never does anything and so the idiot (consumer) should get a discount.

    111. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't have a smart phone. I don't even have my dumb phone turned on unless I'm on call or have to make a call. Life doesn't stop just because you can't post to Facebook to say you're at the pub.

    112. Re:No persuasion required by sjames · · Score: 1

      I think it is safe enough to say that the secrets will be sold, not grabbed by some uber-hacker attacking employee smartphones.

    113. Re:No persuasion required by lgw · · Score: 3, Informative

      That's an answer straight from the 80s, back when admins thought they should control everything on the network.

      In the modern world you want a remote destop (via a product from VMware, Citrix, etc). The users can bring any damn device they please, virus-infested nasty things that they are, but the only access they have to corporate services is a remote desktop connection to a VM in the datacenter.

      BYOD is the corporate future. The safe, modern solution is to send "pixels, not files" to those devices, so there's no data at risk.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    114. Re:No persuasion required by MysteriousPreacher · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure you understand what slavery entails. It's not typically about earning a wage in a place where they won't allow you to have an Easy-Bake Oven on your desk, to make biscuits to munch while you browse Slashdot. I'm led to believe it's a little more grim than that.

      --
      -- Using the preview button since 2005
    115. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No shit Sherlock. About half of humanity doesn't have a dick...

    116. Re:No persuasion required by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      Really? So, one can't buy a briefcase, calendar, or day planner anymore because they are obsolete, right? Oh, wait, they are still made and sold buy the hundreds of thousands.

      Anyone can get along just fine without a cellphone, let alone "smartphone". Your dependence on technology makes you weak and short-sighted.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    117. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And when your child dies of aniphylactic shock because the school could not reach you on your listed emergency number and the company IP based phone system was down, then you can sue that company for everything they have or ever will have.

      It is an illegal policy (reckless child endangerment) - nail em for it.

    118. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your argument is flawed as well. The argument isn't going without the technology at all, it's working around it's absence at times. How do drive to a shop in the mall or a pedestrian precinct? Do you drive into a lift? No, you park somewhere else and walk. What if you worked in such an area and had to do it on a regular basis? For that matter, if you work in a customer facing role do you think those employees spend their work time looking at their smartphones. Hell no. All of this technology is valuable, useful but not indispensable to our lives. We can go without and adapt, especially for short periods. Just like park and ride on trains to avoid traffic congestion, phones could forward the essential services. On my android phone practically all the data services are synchronised to web portals. If I'm focussing on the computer, I'd prefer my appointments, reminders, todos, even my messages and calls to pop up there. At this point my phone is not necessary.

    119. Re:No persuasion required by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Many of them can. 'Their' dick is attached to 'Their' asshole. (ref old joke Q: What does a JAP do with her asshole every morning? A: Sends him to work.)

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    120. Re:No persuasion required by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      Burden of proof? Seriously? This is a workplace matter, not a logical argument. You certainly don't have a legal right to bring your personal computer or smartphone to the office.

      The workplace is not a democracy, it is a dictatorship. If the boss doesn't want you to bring your smartphone into the building, you have 4 choices: quit, sneak it in and hope you don't get fired, try to convince the boss he is wrong and risk getting fired or him suggesting you quit, or accepting the policy.

      And, remember, if you take the third path, the boss does not have to provide any evidence or proof or justify his reasons to you. You have to prove your case to him and he is under no obligation to listen to you let alone accept your evidence as sufficient. And, in the end, the boss can say "You are right on all counts. But, we are still implementing this policy. If you don't like it, quit."

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    121. Re:No persuasion required by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Yep, that works good. It's not like the malware can't eavesdrop on your remote connection or even take it over. Oh wait...

    122. Re:No persuasion required by Mr.+Mikey · · Score: 1

      Here, in reality, there is no such thing as an HR. You don't get it, do you? I guess you're moderately wealthy, nice house in the 'burbs, etc ad nauseum. In the real working world, companies don't HAVE an HR department. I've never worked for a company that had one.

      What modern company of any size doesn't have an HR Department? I know of companies with thirty or so employees who have an HR person on staff. I call "shenanigans" on this claim... not to mention noting the scent of "Internet Tough Guy" coming off of this post.

      --
      wants to be the first monkey to touch the monolith
    123. Re:No persuasion required by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Let me guess: You weren't born before cell phones?

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    124. Re:No persuasion required by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Our devs are developing software to run on Linux servers, they are using windows desktops. They have no need to do anything special on their desktops.

    125. Re:No persuasion required by lgw · · Score: 1

      This solution is used in heavily-regulated and heavily-audited industries. It's a mature solution now, only the BYOD trend is new.

      It's won't match the security of airgapped machines with USB ports welded shut and a huge degausser at the door, but for 99% of work environments it's quite secure when compared to a desktop on the domain.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    126. Re:No persuasion required by snspdaarf · · Score: 1

      Yes. Giving devs admin/root is one of the classic blunders of all time. I worked with one that wrangled root from the Boss. Soon, we had test data files all over the production file system, because there wasn't enough room in the test environment to replicate all the production data. The Boss is no longer the Boss.

      --
      Why, without your clothes, you're naked, Miss Dudley!
    127. Re:No persuasion required by Grand+Facade · · Score: 1

      The other 10% has already been stolen as well, via the Chinese routers deployed on the network!

      --
      Rick B.
    128. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's exactly how I handle it. I used to put in 10-12 hrs a day at work, which means trips to the post office, bank and the doctor were during company time. In a 9 to 5 job on the other hand those chores would definitely be done after work hours if at all possible (the doctor sometimes isn't).

    129. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yes, 10+ years ago we also had the wonderful boxes on street corners with phones attached to them that you payed for. They were called Pay Phones and were a wondrous invention allowing us to not have to carry a phone all the time.

    130. Re:No persuasion required by snspdaarf · · Score: 1

      He meant guilded... Like a pack animal with its happy bits cut right the F* off.

      First ironically, then figuratively, then literally.

      "Gelded", not "guilded", unless he is joining a union or something...

      --
      Why, without your clothes, you're naked, Miss Dudley!
    131. Re:No persuasion required by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      Well, when I see the government (at my country or yours, you can choose) mandating that companies to permit that their empoyees use their own devices at work, I'll cede my point. Not before that.

      I've seen too many times the governement (lots of them) helpping companies that can't be productive.

    132. Re:No persuasion required by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      Come here to NYC and say that again.

      Ok.....NYC...Chicago, and maybe a couple of other US cities, but other than those..the majority of major US cities don't have any really viable, reliable mass transit that the masses can use.

      Most of the rest of us out here, own and use cars as our primary means of transportation anywhere.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    133. Re:No persuasion required by micahraleigh · · Score: 0

      This invisibly pushes a lot of brain capital out of DoD. Glad I'm out of that world, and the entire public sector for that matter.

    134. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or you can give out your work number for emergencies or set your cell phone to automatically forward calls during business hours to your desk phone.

      Some people are employed in jobs where giving out their office telephone number could get them killed. And call forwarding can be traced by the originator with sufficient motivation. I have worked in government offices in which some civil servants openly brag about using illicit substances and yet somehow manage to keep their security clearance; I was tempted to put a bullet in their skull as they sat at their desk.

    135. Re:No persuasion required by vakuona · · Score: 1

      If your devs are installing illegal software, it is probably because you make it hard for them to acquire software they need easily and legally.

    136. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I used to take public transit to and from work daily when I was consulting for the government or private industry if the bus route was convenient; it was in 90% of the cases. Even at eighty dollars a month for a bus pass and the convenience of bus stops near home and work made it a no-brainer compared to paying one hundred twenty dollars a month to park plus roughly sixty dollars a month for gasoline.

    137. Re:No persuasion required by Tauvix · · Score: 1

      Fair enough. It's been almost 20 years since I last took a history class and I'll admit that there are things I don't remember, if I was ever taught them. Legitimately, I don't recall any history class in k-12 here in upstate NY ever talking about anything other than very narrow focus attention on various wars the US has been in. And history of anything outside of the US was alluded to, but ultimately not really discussed. I did attend a public school after all.

      Both concepts seem equally applicable to the situation, except that I see little chance of it going any other way other than complete corporate ownership of everyone on the planet, or at least in the United States.

    138. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What if an employee does not want to lug the 5 lbs. notebook computer to and from the office but would rather carry their 2 lbs. ultra-notebook? The last place I worked required us to take our corporate-issued notebook computers home each day in case there was a problem at the office we could remotely connect to the corporate network and do our jobs. Most people left them plugged into the docking station on their desk and walked out each day.

    139. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ditto Baton Rouge and Pittsburgh. There are plenty of cities where traffic isn't NYC/Chicago/Boston-level terrible, and public transportation is unreliable and just downright nasty.

    140. Re:No persuasion required by Tauvix · · Score: 1

      As an addendum to that, taking the concept of "Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it;" it seems to me that we're doomed to repeat it anyway, from where I sit in my tiny cubicle.

    141. Re:No persuasion required by sjames · · Score: 1

      Actually, I was born enough before cell phones to also remember when the expectation was that a single 9to5 was enough to support a family and that there was another adult at home that could take care of the house and the kids so you didn't have much reason to be making personal calls at work.

    142. Re:No persuasion required by lgw · · Score: 3, Informative

      In places where desktops are locked down for software install, with choice of images as the only way to get software, trying to support devs usually isn't even on the radar. There's always some tool or utility specific to one dev's preferences that really will make him more productive.

      In places where desktops aren' locked down, any decent dev will have root anyhow, soon as he gets around to it. Although, giving Linux devs Windows dev machines would be a particularly evil way to delay the inevitable.

      My favorite story is of a group os devs where IT insisted that SMS (the old MS management client, not the mesaging tool) be running on every desktop so that they could inventory and push software to the devs at will. Of course, that started an arms race with the devs getting ever more clever with deleting the SMS client, until managment handed out dire threats to anyone caught deleting it. At which point, thanks to backchannels, an internal test version of SMS (that would respond successfully to any server requests with scripted answers) somehow made it out of MS and into the devs hands. IT never twigged to the substitution.

      I've been known to virtualize the image IT insisted I use, so that everything looked just fne to them via their tools, while I could get on with my job using the rest of the machine.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    143. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I used to work for an employer who also had this policy, focused on customer service. Worse for me, because I could be at any of 10 different locations between Waltham, MA and Cranston, RI from one day to the next - I could even be moved between locations mid-day - and needed to be reached in case of an emergency with my son. It was more annoyance for me as my phone (Nextel at the time) didn't even work in half of the buildings anyway. My solution was to simply forward all incoming calls to wherever I happened to be at for the day and leave it plugged in in a drawer, until I was able to get the hell out of there that is.

    144. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And providing a phone is unlikely to change that.

      Hello? Booty call! That's how half the population finds 'their' dick.

    145. Re:No persuasion required by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      We seem to work together better than that. If they need something they can ask sysadmin or more likely get helpdesk to install it. Any screwing with the machines will likely end in termination.

      If a dev wants a mac or linux machine then they are assumed to be competent enough to handle it themselves.

    146. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... nobody gives a crap about your secret documents ...

      A spy hopes that industrial espionage enables it to make the same product and under-cut the original manufacturer. That is profitable which is why the US has such onerous export controls. It's not enough to have the 'recipe', one must also have the high-tech tools for 'cooking'. Russia was never able to make their own tools but I doubt China will have the same problem.

      If you actually had worthwhile secret documents ...

      There are 3 reasons for treason: Revenge, adventure, profit.

      Revenge: Firstly, promote only employees with a thick skin. Secondly, don't treat employees (who handle your trade secrets) as disposable and fungible assets.

      Adventure: If work was fun, employees wouldn't be paid. This danger is reduced by making the workplace a social experience, not just rules and repetition.

      Profit: Everyone wants more money but those in debt are suspect here. Or those suffering reduced wages via an economic crisis like the GFC.

      ... sold them in exchange for a nice retirement ...

      Unfortunately, secrets are a buyers' market and the buyer can wait for a seller who wants 1 or maybe 2 years' wages. Since the seller didn't have a difficult job stealing the secrets, he probably won't be asking for much either. Also, as above, profit usually isn't the motive for stealing so the cash is just a bonus.

    147. Re:No persuasion required by cbeaudry · · Score: 1

      You thing like a union man who sleeps on the job, and gets away with it.

    148. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shouldn't the school contact somewhere medical first?

    149. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't get paid to be treated like a fucking toddler either. Unless there is a genuine security or health and safety risk, any workplace which bans personal devices simply on the grounds of 'you'll waste your time on facebook' basically views their employees as dirt and I would never work there no matter how desperate I was. There are legitimate ways of dealing with slackers, facebook addicted morons, and people who just like to try it on because they can. These methods are known as appropriate supervision and if necessary, disciplinary procedures.

    150. Re:No persuasion required by DrVxD · · Score: 1

      Stand in the car park?

      --
      Not everything that can be measured matters; Not everything that matters can be measured.
    151. Re:No persuasion required by DrVxD · · Score: 1

      Children were just as safe before smart phones...

      They were dangerous back then - and they're still dangerous now.

      --
      Not everything that can be measured matters; Not everything that matters can be measured.
    152. Re:No persuasion required by mabhatter654 · · Score: 1

      But then you wouldn't have anything to complain about on the Internet. I'm just doing my civic duty.... Besides our corporate masters get those confused all the time.

    153. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      About half of humanity can't find their dick.

      They are called "Women" you insensitive clod !

    154. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The burden of proof is on the employer to show that no other mitigating measure can address the risks. Summarily banning child protecting, emergency-aleviating technology, not to mention the tools with which we coordinate the rest of our lives, is truly bad form and will bite the employer more often than they know.

      "The burden of proof". Seriously? They are paying you a wage to work for them. If they don't want you bringing a potential security risk into the work place, that's their prerogative. Also, I have yet to work for an employer who would not allow you to receive an emergency phone call relating to your child over the office phones. As for "coordinating the rest of your life", that's not what you are being paid to do, so do it on your own time.

    155. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obviously the management at your place are the ones who get to "screw around with their cell phones when they're supposed to be working" instead of actually managing their employees. You really think sufficiently demotivated people can't find other ways to slack off without their toys? With that kind of environment and workplace culture the only ones that are going to be left before long are those who actually deserve the to be treated like infants.

      And for any emergencies, I have a company-provided e-mail which can be used, and I have a desk phone which people can call.

      How convenient that just about every corporate IT policy in existence reserves the right to spy on any use of their phone or email. Need to deal with something sensitive or personal during work hours? Now your boss knows everything. Corporate feudalism.

    156. Re:No persuasion required by ktappe · · Score: 1

      If not having your pacifier with you at all times makes you that uncomfortable, find a different job.

      Yeah. My mom is critically ill in the hospital right now, so my iPhone is not a 'pacifier'. It is a lifeline to the doctors, nurses, family members, and friends who are helping care for her when I can't be because I have to come into that job you are so cavalier about me ditching. And several of them prefer texting (so they can communicate silently without bothering the patient), so forwarding the cell to my desk (which I often have to get up from) is not an option.

      --
      "We can categorically state we have not released man-eating badgers into the area." - UK military spokesman, July 2007
    157. Re:No persuasion required by ktappe · · Score: 1

      If you work in a DoD environment then you have to accept the possibility that you're not going to be able to bring your device in the building. It sucks sometimes sure but if the risk is information coming in or going out then this helps mitigate it a great deal.

      The problem is multifold, but the main one that jumps out at me is what if these rules are enacted AFTER you accept the position? And what if there is a completely valid reason for you having a cell phone (family crisis, etc.)? Employers who don't support their employees' needs are likely to suffer talent drain. Of course, they won't admit or recognize this until it's too late.

      --
      "We can categorically state we have not released man-eating badgers into the area." - UK military spokesman, July 2007
    158. Re:No persuasion required by ktappe · · Score: 1

      we have problems with people's attention being distracted from their jobs....

      We also suffer from vandalism...

      Management has dismissed half of the lessons ever learned about keeping personnel happy. They don't give a damn about happy employees.

      You don't have a smartphone problem, you have serious H.R. problems. Taking away cellphones ain't gonna help one little bit with that.

      --
      "We can categorically state we have not released man-eating badgers into the area." - UK military spokesman, July 2007
    159. Re:No persuasion required by clay_buster · · Score: 1

      What do you recommend for people who use public transit instead of driving to work?

      How did this comment get rated insightful? Your neighbors really don't want to hear you yaking away on your personal calls anyway. Go out the loading dock and hang with the smokers.

    160. Re:No persuasion required by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      I have a 7 year old child in school. The school has my cell phone number in case of emergency, so that I can go pick up the child.
      Schools, children and emergencies all existed for thousands of years before cell phones and people got by just fine.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    161. Re:No persuasion required by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      It's quite a different world ten years ago.
      That's true. 10 years ago, we had 1/10th of the methods of communicating that we have now and we communicated 10 times better than we do now.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    162. Re:No persuasion required by PmanAce · · Score: 1

      Really? I have many friends that don't have cell phones and/or smart phones. I would say their world is the same. Should I go out and buy them smart phones since they are now living in the dark ages?

      --
      Tired of my customary (Score:1)
    163. Re:No persuasion required by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      And when your child dies of aniphylactic shock because the school could not reach you on your listed emergency number and the company IP based phone system was down, then you can sue that company for everything they have or ever will have.
      How is the company responsible for you giving a cell phone number instead of your work number? Also, there are multiple emergency contact numbers requested just for the reason that the primary emergency contact is unreachable. Also, if your child was dying of anaphylactic shock and they got ahold of you, what would you do? By the time you drove to the school, your child would likely be dead, or at the hospital, which is where they would take someone who was having an emergency of that nature, with or without your permission. To do any less would mean to get sued, thanks to today's sue-happy hoverparents.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    164. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The way to address 'the possibility of "sensitive" and "secret" documents being recorded' is to not give that information to people you don't trust.

      That's how Coca-Cola and KFC have kept their formulas secret all these decades. There are employees who have earned trust, and those who haven't. Don't give that sort of sensitive information to the second category - it's not that hard.

      Alternatively, if all your information is 'sensitive', then you have a classification problem.

    165. Re:No persuasion required by LinuxIsGarbage · · Score: 1

      Our facility has big scary signs at the gate "No cameras allowed". I have an authorized photo taking device with a big tag on it, but the head of QA must authorize any photo that leaves the site.

      Meanwhile we just moved to a BYOD (ugh acronym) mostly subsidized smartphone policy. So according to them I'm required to have a smartphone to be able to access company email, meanwhile it has a camera that's better than my ancient authorized device. It's sure as hell easier to be pretending to text while taking pictures than it is to sneak in a real camera.

      We aren't allowed to install Chrome on our desktops, meanwhile our phones are practically owned by Google.

    166. Re:No persuasion required by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Now you ave touched on the real reason employers want to ban smart phones at work. Their employees will spend all day playing with their smart phones and very little time on actual work. Sure, you can fire slackers when you spend weeks confirming their smart phone addiction but the cost of refilling the position with new advertisements, interviews et al only to repeat the same outcome when attempting to hire from the current generation of smart phone addicts. So full ban.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    167. Re:No persuasion required by swalve · · Score: 1

      Sure it has. When's the last time you sat around waiting for an important phone call, or stopped at a phone to call and check in with the family/work?

    168. Re:No persuasion required by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Except that you can't do that and get any decent employees. Anyone under 35 (and probably older now, maybe 40-45) who's any good is going to have a smartphone, and that's going to be their only phone. Try telling them they need to buy an additional dumbphone for use at work, or leave the smartphone at home, and they'll just go find a new job. That's like telling people they need to get a special, separate internet service for their house so they can do work at home, only even more asinine.

    169. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did they ban use of all computing devices or just smart phones? After all every day there is a new exploit, malware, etc... Just about any computing device. Heck I'm fairly sure I could get a tftp service running on one of your works computers without much trouble.

      My guess is that this is yet another management method to attempt to increase productivity, and they are using articles like the one you pointed to in an attempt validate their policy.

      if you want to get he policy revoked, you need to do some actual research. In fact you may want to see if you can find any studies that prove that the cell phone is a riskier environment than the computers you are using. (Or preferably the reverse)

      It is not proof that malware exists that can be used for spying just because the navy managed to write some software that can. Nor does it indicate that any device own by one of you employees s running said software. it's far more likely that an employee will purposely steal documents suing their cell phone than malware will manage to.

    170. Re:No persuasion required by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Oh fine, fussy teen, we'll tell you, you can't have it on site for security reasons ;P.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    171. Re:No persuasion required by PmanAce · · Score: 1

      Because of texts, kids today and some adults have no attention spans and expect replies and everything now. Now, now, now. Not all technology advancements are beneficial. But before anyone cherry-picks my response, it isn't my original point. Do you get paid to go on Facebook using your smart phone at work, check your emails or text or do you get paid to work? I enjoy being disconnected from everything once in a while, maybe you should try that freedom too. Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm waiting impatiently for the Galaxy S4 to come out!

      --
      Tired of my customary (Score:1)
    172. Re:No persuasion required by PmanAce · · Score: 1

      Really? So the entire point about smart phones at work (ie 9 to 5) and your response is that schools are less violent today because of said smart phones? Hmmm, you'll have to explain why and how a cell phone and a land line at work (your work phone) are different and save children.

      --
      Tired of my customary (Score:1)
    173. Re:No persuasion required by PmanAce · · Score: 1

      Your work number after you ask your boss for a phone.

      --
      Tired of my customary (Score:1)
    174. Re:No persuasion required by Door-opening+Fascist · · Score: 1

      I work in Seattle and 65 percent of people bus, carpool, walk, or bike to downtown Seattle. I actually work at University of Washington (a few miles north of downtown), but of the people I know, only around half drive alone to work. It wasn't too long ago when driving was a luxury, and most people either walked or took public transit. Skylar

    175. Re:No persuasion required by Door-opening+Fascist · · Score: 1

      Most of the rest of us out here, own and use cars as our primary means of transportation anywhere.

      I feel true pity there - I've never owned a car, but it means I live close enough to work, grocery stores, and parks that I have the freedom to walk, bike, or bus. I never have to worry about the price of gas or where to park.

    176. Re:No persuasion required by hobarrera · · Score: 1

      The burden of proof is on the employer to show that no other mitigating measure can address the risks.

      My current employer has banned all personal cellphones and personal laptops for some time. It is really not that hard to get around, and the burden is not on them to prove anything. You are paid to work and presumably want your job. If not having your pacifier with you at all times makes you that uncomfortable, find a different job. Or you can give out your work number for emergencies or set your cell phone to automatically forward calls during business hours to your desk phone. If you need to make a personal call that you do not want to/cant make from your desk line, go out to your car during lunch and make it.

      You're payed to do your job, not cut all ties with the outside world during those six hours.
      Also, forwarding calls usually has a cost (for me, the receiver), while receiving calls does not. Plus, plenty of people don't have their own work phone.
      And cars? No one at my work (software development) has cars.

      Sometimes my GF will come to pick me up after work, and she'll ring me when she's close by. That means I can get some extra job done while I wait. If my employer forced me not to use the phone, I'd [have to] be though the door at 16:00, not a second later.

      That management favors solutions that are simply a matter of writing policy, is in their nature, so don't sit in the dark and bitch, fix the bulb.

      So if a concern is the microphone on the phone you have no problem filling that with epoxy?

      For the record, plenty of other things can have hidden microphones. Like ties, or buttons. I don't think most employers need to worry about this sort of things.

    177. Re:No persuasion required by hobarrera · · Score: 1

      Plenty of cities have awful traffic, and buses are no faster than cars.
      In my particular case, I get to work faster by foot that bus/taxi. So I walk to work everyday. So does a great deal of people.

    178. Re:No persuasion required by hobarrera · · Score: 1

      In places where desktops are locked down for software install, with choice of images as the only way to get software, trying to support devs usually isn't even on the radar. There's always some tool or utility specific to one dev's preferences that really will make him more productive.

      In places where desktops aren' locked down, any decent dev will have root anyhow, soon as he gets around to it. Although, giving Linux devs Windows dev machines would be a particularly evil way to delay the inevitable.

      I'm in a similar scenario. We each got our own iMac. Mine had ArchLinux about 48hs later, my coworker had Ubuntu, etc, etc. Devs will just plug in a USB drive and install their prefered OS, there's nothing you can do about it. Especially *nix devs, which tend to be more tech-savvy

    179. Re:No persuasion required by hobarrera · · Score: 1

      Summarily banning child protecting, emergency-aleviating technology

      What happened to giving them your work place number like you know, your parents did? Children were just as safe before smart phones...

      I can quite clearly remember not being able to reach my parents when I was sick at school (about 20 years ago). I'm sure as hell that my 4year old sister doesn't have the same issue.

      not to mention the tools with which we coordinate the rest of our lives

      I don't agree with this at all. 10+ years ago we didn't use smart phones and we coordinated the rest of our lives just fine.

      Times change. 10 years ago, you'd loose contact with people who moved a lot. You'd never be able to see that always-busy friend that happened to be free that afternoon the the last minute.

      The problems are solvable and worth solving. That management favors solutions that are simply a matter of writing policy, is in their nature, so don't sit in the dark and bitch, fix the bulb.

      I think management just wants you to do your job and not have you sit there browsing facebook on your phone, texting your friends or calling for appointments while you are getting paid.

      Fine; I'll just facebook on my desktop.

    180. Re:No persuasion required by hobarrera · · Score: 1

      I've a 15year old [female] friend. If she finds herself out late past sundown, she can call her dad to pick her up, instead of walking home alone at night. Phones do help children/minors a lot.

    181. Re:No persuasion required by strikethree · · Score: 2

      So because management can treat employees like shit, they will. Sounds like a bunch of great people. What ever happened to just being a pleasant person? You know, the whole "do unto others" thing. Yes, I know, making that widget is all that counts in this world. It is after all how you put food on the table.

      What a miserable existence. I would rather be dead.

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    182. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Asking employees to not carry a cellphone, in 2013, is utterly ridiculous, and a lot like asking them to wear 1800s-style dress to work.

      They will wear what they are told to wear, and they will bloody like it.

    183. Re:No persuasion required by jasen666 · · Score: 1

      Data is still at risk. I can take a screenshot of those pixels.

    184. Re:No persuasion required by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      Well yes, that's because half of humanity is female. :)

    185. Re:No persuasion required by YeeHaW_Jelte · · Score: 2

      "Bad form and burden of proof, you say. Either you are a very lucky person, and have a really great job where management actually thinks about you and your needs - or you're stuck in the mid-1980's."

      Or he's employed in a first world country other than the US. If that's luck or not, I'll leave up to your judgement.

      I do know, as a dutch IT worker cooperating with foreign companies from a few different parts of the world, that I'd never want to work for an American company. Very little vacation, very inefficient hierarchy, sociopathic employers and a near total disregard for the employees are a few of the reasons.

      --

      ---
      "The chances of a demonic possession spreading are remote -- relax."
    186. Re:No persuasion required by Demena · · Score: 1

      About half of humanity doesn't have one. Where do you think you came from?

    187. Re:No persuasion required by Demena · · Score: 1

      BYOD is the corporate future. The safe, modern solution is to send "pixels, not files" to those devices, so there's no data at risk.

      'Scuse my why I laugh my arse off. You ever hear of a capture? You ever hear of reading software? You ever used scanner software with a convert to text option?

      Safe - No. Pixels don't even make it harder work.

      Modern? - No. Archaic in its simplistic assumptions.

    188. Re:No persuasion required by Demena · · Score: 1

      Mature solution? Archaic and failed. You think this would save you from HIPA (for example)? Your imaginary regulators and auditors would be liable and carrying maximum exposure.

    189. Re:No persuasion required by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      I feel true pity there - I've never owned a car, but it means I live close enough to work, grocery stores, and parks that I have the freedom to walk, bike, or bus. I never have to worry about the price of gas or where to park.

      I take it that means you somehow have never changed jobs which often involves moving to a different city/state?

      Or have you been lucky enough every time you change jobs and move to get that close to work again?

      I mean...pretty much the only way one moves up in salary and position (if working the usual W2 job) is to change jobs every 3 or so years....is this maybe your first job out of school you're talking about?

      Seriously, just curious...it sounds like you've not moved about a lot.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    190. Re:No persuasion required by Agent0013 · · Score: 1

      Really? So, one can't buy a briefcase, calendar, or day planner anymore because they are obsolete, right? Oh, wait, they are still made and sold buy the hundreds of thousands.

      Anyone can get along just fine without a cellphone, let alone "smartphone". Your dependence on technology makes you weak and short-sighted.

      Perhaps my use of technology makes me more productive. Your paper calendar or planner will not give an audible alarm for work meetings, my smart phone will. It's fine if you want to live in the past, but I would not work at a place that had such onerous conditions. Just imagine how much your tech knowledge will degrade when you have worked there for a decade and no other employer will hire you due to being so out of the loop. "What? You don't know how to use a smart phone to manage your daily work tasks and meetings! Goodbye!"

      --

      -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
    191. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you explain how AT&T enabled restrictions with a password only they know? I am not sure I am buying that...

    192. Re:No persuasion required by coolsnowmen · · Score: 1

      For the middle class, The point of taking public transportation isn't so that you can save a couple $ on gas, it is so:
          You don't have to drive in aweful traffic so you can actually relax and read a book or newspaper, and these days catch up on all the BS work email so I can actulally work when you get to work.
          Your family can be ok with just 1 car and not 2. The cost of a car is large when you add it all up -- the initial cost of a car good enough it won't break down because I'm a young kid who knows how to configure a linux server, and not how to fix a car; the taxes; time spend at the DMV/MVA/whatever; insurance costs. This all adds up to more than about 2K per year.

    193. Re:No persuasion required by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      No, they'll find another job. Tech jobs are plentiful these days; I have recruiters bugging me all the time for them. Sure, in retail jobs, employers are more likely to wear what they're told to wear, because there aren't that many openings for non-skilled workers, but we're on Slashdot where most readers are in IT or engineering. People here are not stuck with the job they have; they can (relatively) easily move to another one.

    194. Re:No persuasion required by Shempster · · Score: 1

      Smartphones are vulnerable, uncontrolled front-ends to the web & "cloud" apps like dropbox and GPS surveillance. Ban non-corporate smartphones, while allowing call-forwarding. Disable PAN ports & Wifi on all workstations- anything that connects unauthorized devices to the corporate network. This will not stop stealth cameras/camcorders/GPS from spying. As these devices get smaller and smaller, anything short of an invasive strip search will not prevent spying. You'll need to rely on usage policy statements. Regardless, if you run an R&D outfit, or you're Gordon Gecko, and give a damn about your private corporate data, consider banning non-corporate smartphones. .

    195. Re:No persuasion required by El+Rey · · Score: 1

      Depends on the laws where you live, but there are definitely laws out there making, "criminal threat", an arrest-able offense (eg. California PC 422, Kansas 21-3419, etc.). In some cases it can even be a felony (eg. California).

      In addition, your employer could also be liable under OSHA regulations (in the US) and open themselves up to civil suits if they are notified of your threats and do nothing about it. Most companies have a zero tolerance policy on threats and violence just like they do on sexual harassment because they aren't willing to put the company at risk so that you can exercise your preference to behave badly / break the law.

      If you and your employer want to take that risk, it's your right, but I don't think anyone here will be crying about it if you go to jail.

    196. Re:No persuasion required by lgw · · Score: 1

      What are you going on about? Desktop remoting has certainly been used in hospitals, as well as banks, brokerages, and so on. Thin clients actually make sense in those verticals.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    197. Re:No persuasion required by lgw · · Score: 1

      Especially *nix devs, which tend to be more tech-savvy

      That's a laugh. There may have been a time when that was reasonable, back in the good old days when most devs were geeks, but that time has long passed.

      These days most of the worlds fresh and clueless college grads have only ever used Linux boxes for dev work, while a few have done Android/iPhone apps. Remember, American undergrads are only a slice of the worlds coding degrees, and there's almost no Windows presence in universities outside the US.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    198. Re:No persuasion required by lgw · · Score: 1

      How much malware in the wild actually does that? I can't say none, but if it exists it's quite rare.

      In any case, you're always safer to just send pixels than to send files. Worst case, someone gets a screen or two of information but they can only get what the user accesses normally, there's no pathway at all to attack deeper into the network. No way to attempt injection attacks or fuzzing on protocols, no direct access to the servers - you know the parts that matter - at all.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    199. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is a significant difference between what you can do on your time and what you can do on company time. Frankly rightfully so. Your employer is paying you to work not to fiddle with your phone in the office. It is a matter of needing something vs. wanting something. You don't NEED your personal cell phone to do you day job.

      Now that said it is possible that an employer can make arrangements to have a BYOD policy but don't be shocked if their are significant limitations when and if that occurs.

    200. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well said. There are no "secret sauce" in most companies.

    201. Re:No persuasion required by cynyr · · Score: 1

      I live in a first ring suburb of Minneapolis (for those of you here, inside the 494/694 ring) and work in a second ring suburb. There is a bus from work to home in morning and from hoem to work in the evening, so unless I want to work nights I have to drive the 16 miles.

      --
      All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
    202. Re:No persuasion required by cynyr · · Score: 1

      Right, MAC lock the main wifi network (if you have company WIFI devices) or otherwise keep the personal devices off the network. If you want to provide a network for the personal devices, then provide employees with access to a separate firewalled off network. Since the post is about malware it seems like the real issue is letting the devices on the network, and not in the physical space.

      Is the issue the camera's on these devices? If so, time to get lockers in a space outside the "secure" space.

      --
      All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
    203. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As annoying as it maybe, I am glad to hear your employer is at least concerned about the topic. KRO here in the Netherlands had an interesting report showing the damage small simple breaches can create:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okhfDsKmAoY ... the report even covers some files owned by Europol (European Union Police) who could be found on the internet because an employee who worked for the security company they hired took the documents home (probably to work on them from home).

      Companies need to be more concerned about the topic of security so that the concern perculates up the supply chain to the manufacturers.

      What I see here is an opportunity. They are banning smart phones because they cannot trust them in the hands of many employees who are not tech savvy (and even ones who are but are simply lazy). Therefore, this means that there is an opportunity in the market for someone who can deliver smart phones that are more secure.

    204. Re:No persuasion required by Demena · · Score: 1

      What am I on about? Only that it is not secure and cannot possibly be. But then not much is secure of can be secured anyway.

    205. Re:No persuasion required by Demena · · Score: 1
      Ummm... What is the HIPAA fine per page? All I am saying that if people think that it is secure they are wrong. Very little is secured or can be secured. That is just a fact of life. Any body who talks a bout a secure server of a secured network is someone who you might want to reconsider hiring.

      Security is an active process that needs constant monitoring. Then who watches those who do the monitoring?

    206. Re:No persuasion required by klingers48 · · Score: 1

      About half of humanity can't find their dick. And providing a phone is unlikely to change that.

      Very true. World-wide obesity rates continue to climb.

    207. Re:No persuasion required by Door-opening+Fascist · · Score: 1

      I feel true pity there - I've never owned a car, but it means I live close enough to work, grocery stores, and parks that I have the freedom to walk, bike, or bus. I never have to worry about the price of gas or where to park.

      I take it that means you somehow have never changed jobs which often involves moving to a different city/state?

      Or have you been lucky enough every time you change jobs and move to get that close to work again?

      I mean...pretty much the only way one moves up in salary and position (if working the usual W2 job) is to change jobs every 3 or so years....is this maybe your first job out of school you're talking about?

      Seriously, just curious...it sounds like you've not moved about a lot.

      Nope, not my first job, but for my last job I again lived close enough that I could walk or bike to work (transit kind of sucked though).

      I am happy where I am, so I haven't changed jobs in years. There's a lot more to life than money - I make more than enough to be happy, put food on the table, and pay the rent. I don't have to waste hours of my life being miserable in a car. What more is there to want?

      If I really need a car, there's plenty of car sharing programs around. If I need to move across the country, I can rent a UHaul or (even better) get my new employer to arrange the move.

      I think it's far more likely that I'd change jobs within the same city, or move to another city with good walking, transit, and biking. I think (and hope) the days of metastatized suburbs are over.

    208. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I pity you, when the first storm comes and power is knocked out or just a week or two of civil unrest, it is the millions coped up in the cities that will have no food, water, heating or cooling and fighting in the streets for what if anything is left. Oh, and that fighting will most likely be with you having no real protection because big city laws prevent you from having a gun. You will eventually wonder off to the suburbs and the outskirts to the people that have a few weeks or more of necessities but do not expect any help. Sandy should have been a wake up call for people living in the cities and it was just very minor inconvenience aside from the property damage but property does not sustain life, supplies do. Stock up your condo and apartment with some basic fucking needs to make it a few weeks without power. Many people away from the daily casual lifestyle they have grown accustomed totally freak out in a very short period of time when things go wrong. Everyone does not but enough people do to make the ones that do not have to take action to protect themselves.

    209. Re:No persuasion required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've been a developer for over 10 years, and have always had admin access to my workstation. No harm ever came out of it - from me or any of my co-workers. Nobody installed cracked or otherwise illegal software. Open source products were installed when appropriate, and no harm ever came out of that either. Your comment is one of extreme ignorance.

    210. Re:No persuasion required by pete6677 · · Score: 1

      Good idea. Lets go back in time 20 years just because it makes life easier for control-freak employers. Hire professionals, treat them well, and be amazed at the quality of work they do. Or continue your approach of paying peanuts, hiring monkeys, and being disappointed that they goof off all day. Which one do you think will lead to a better company overall?

  2. No by Eightbitgnosis · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Would you ban laptops at work for the same reason?

    1. Re:No by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Personal laptops where the user has keys to the kingdom? Yes, those are banned. Laptops I have locked down and set to our our policies, provided by the company? No, they are allowed. The same applies to smartphones. Any further questions?

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    2. Re:No by jimbolauski · · Score: 4, Interesting

      We allow personal laptops and smart phones but we have two internal networks one that is for the unclean and one for verified systems. The unclean network only allows access to to the internet and a few of our internal systems, email, calendars, and contacts, only stuff that is exposed to the outside all ready. Plugging in an unverified computer into the clean network will usually cause our IT guy to come find the person. I got dinged for that after plugging in a Micro-Controler board that was not recognized by the network in about 5 minutes.

      --
      Knowledge = Power
      P= W/t
      t=Money
      Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
    3. Re:No by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      I'm glad I've never worked for a company like that.

      I've worked somewhere a tiny bit like that, but they were still allowed to give out everything except "sudo bash" access. The sysadmins knew that it was effectively equivalent. But they generally knew that anyone who could figure it out could root the machine anyway should they need to. So they stuck to the letter of the rules very closely.

      And for some reason laptops didn't have the same rules as desktops. Neither did embedded kit. So I had one workstation with sudo access but no root access, two company laptops with root access (I installed ubuntu on one, the other shipped from Dell with ubuntu installed) and a bunch of random ARM linux boards on which I had root access.

      Hideously locked down boxes are generally a developer's and engineer's nightmare and also pretty much prevent skunkworks projects from ever getting off the ground.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    4. Re:No by Rhacman · · Score: 1

      Originally people in my office were allowed to use their own personal laptops and PCs till the day came when they banned all personally owned computer equipment from the office. I can only speculate, but I think it had to do with some instances of serious corporate policy violations that would have been discovered sooner or even prevented had they occured on machines under company control. It never went quite as far as personally owned smart phones but given that there have been a few key indicents that involved personal smart phones additional prohibitions could certainly be in the future.

      --
      Account -> Discussions -> Disable Sigs
    5. Re:No by AngryNick · · Score: 1

      If you want to ban something, ban the Washington Times...and any other news outlet that tries to sell fear, myths, and partisan politics from under a cloak of objectivity.

      Yes, governments and entities with very valuable data and secrets should always have concerns about espionage, but your average Joe doesn't come into contact with information that is either interesting enough or valuable enough to warrant this level of risk aversion. Your company is either a government contractor, bank, KFC, or possibly megalomaniacal and irrational.

    6. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It depends on company.

      The best solution I've seen was a company that used a VDI and multiple VLANs.

      Someone could bring their smartphone and connect it to the "public" [1] network. The "clean" network was similar to the parents -- each device on a switch was documented in a database, with static IPs, and an active IDS/IPS. Plugging in something unknown that didn't respond to NAC stuff would send alerts and get it isolated until the network admins figured out what the heck it was and dealt with the device (or its owner) accordingly.

      Access to the Exchange server was also allowed... but devices had to have a profile downloaded to them and installed. Depending on what part of the company, the profile might just enforce a PIN, or it might disable the camera, and so on.

      Using virtual desktops also added another layer to the mix, and a central choke point. If someone wasn't authorized to get to a virtual desktop, they were not going to get to any resources, even something as simple as a way out to browse the web.

      The VDI also helped mitigate malware. If a client computer got infected, they might be able to get the username and password for a VDI in an active attack, but passively slurping documents and copying Word documents offsite would still be difficult.

      [1]: public as in employee with a WPA2 key that changed monthly.

    7. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes! In your entire lifetime, did the thought that maybe you are a flamming ass ever possibly enter your head.

    8. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Would you ban laptops at work for the same reason?

      More than smartphones! At my previous job, that was a small private owned company, my boss one day too a computer with him to work from his church and hooked it up to the network. I found out when my harddrive went nuts! I pulled my network cable as soon I saw some foreign local machine. Sure enough, it was loaded with viruses (was the computer used by an older lady that did voluntary accounting for the church that has no computer knowledge.) So yes. Always ban everyone's personal computers!

    9. Re:No by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Good comment - much more helpful than the "employers should understand VLAN's" one I was going to leave. :)

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    10. Re:No by Nimey · · Score: 1

      We've got a bifurcated VLAN setup as well. However, the DHCP server authenticates against a list of known MAC addresses, so if you're not on the list you don't get an IP address. That's rather more secure than IT getting a "hey, someone's plugging an unknown device in, come take care of it!" alert.

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    11. Re:No by kelemvor4 · · Score: 1

      Would you ban laptops at work for the same reason?

      Many companies ban personal laptops at work locations already. My employer does. If I were making that decision for the company, I would do the same. Smartphones would be included as well. Even though they're slightly less powerful, they're connected directly to non corporate data networks and therefore probably a much greater risk than the laptops. Allowing them in would be negligent.

      Unless you don't have any data that needs to be protected (such as customer or employee records).

  3. Execs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What? Are you telling me all the executives and C-level types can't show around their latest iPhones, Galaxies, BlackBerries, etc? Or does it just apply to the minions?

  4. Suck it up. by gti_guy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Surprisingly smartphones have not been around forever and little Johnny & Sally still managed to make it thru daycare okay. If there's an EMERGENCY, outsiders can call your employer's main number and ask for you. You get paid to work, not deal with personal matters.

    1. Re:Suck it up. by nospam007 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      " You get paid to work, not deal with personal matters."

      Amen brother!
      This view illustrates that people at work are busy organizing their private lives, making doctor's appointments, calling family, brokers, schools, daycare, tweeting nonsense and updating their online presence and other crap instead of doing their fucking job and they apparently feel entitled to it.

    2. Re:Suck it up. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And besides that: Teachers and daycare professionals will like the fact that they have your work and home phone number and not just a mobile number that may or may not work depending on whether the phone is on, you've paid your bills, you have wireless reception, etc. And if you are tech savvy you can always redirect calls from your home landline number to your mobile phone or your office phone (provided that you have your own phone at work). In other words: No problem here really.

    3. Re:Suck it up. by slackware+3.6 · · Score: 2

      My daycare insists on my work number or I can't drop the kids off. I think making personal calls or text msging is the big problem. If you need to make a doctor apointment you can easily do that from your desk. Where I work I can bring whatever phone I want but half the time there is no cell service anyway.

    4. Re:Suck it up. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For those of us whose kids have special medical issues, it's critical. Most schools no longer have nurses on full-time staff, they delegate daytime medical support to lightly trained and much less expensive staff, and rely intensively on contacting the parents for anything critical.

      If you tell me that I can't have a smart phone, or at least a phone capable of paging and email for my highly allergic and seizure prone son, I will have my union climbing up your management's asshole with a claw hammer. Forbidding phone use while operating equipment, fine, I can live with that. But I need to guide the school's medical staff on how to handle my son's very occasional emergencies.

    5. Re:Suck it up. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      As long as my job pays me for every minute they intrude into my personal life or past the 8 hours a day I owe them, sounds fine with me.

    6. Re:Suck it up. by gagol · · Score: 2

      So, your workplace have no phone? I always had a phone on my desk.

      --
      Tomorrow is another day...
    7. Re:Suck it up. by Jason+Levine · · Score: 2

      Question: Did you post that response on Slashdot from work?

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    8. Re:Suck it up. by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Surprisingly smartphones have not been around forever and little Johnny & Sally still managed to make it thru daycare okay.

      You make it sound as if the advent of smartphones was the only thing that changed since the fifties. Guess what, people are now required to be "time flexible", and I guess the society changed in many other ways that make it desirable to be reachable.

      If there's an EMERGENCY, outsiders can call your employer's main number and ask for you. You get paid to work, not deal with personal matters.

      And that switch to the desk phone makes that call somehow...impersonal?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    9. Re:Suck it up. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Then learn how to manage your time better - it's not your company's job to do it for you.

      If they intrude into your personal life past the agreed-upon hours you're supposed to work, then ask your boss to establish an on-call rotation (with additional flexibility built into your schedule for the time(s) when you're on call), or work out a comp time arrangement with your boss, where if you need to work an hour in the afternoon, you're able to shave an hour off another day later in the week.

      If you don't ask for it, they'll gladly take it. Stop giving it to them for free, and you'll be surprised at how flexible most managers will be. You see, they have lives and families and things to do outside work, too - they understand the issue - but if you don't bring it up, they're sure not going to.

    10. Re:Suck it up. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      surprisingly, brains have not been around forever and your great^1023 ancestors
      got along just fine with no brains at all. they just used basic metabolic pathways.

      c'mon. life moves on. eventually you'll have to change too, our become a
      dinosaur.

    11. Re:Suck it up. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, I'm on salary. I get paid to make my skills available to my employer and complete the work I need to do. If you want to pull that bullshit you make me hourly, and do not bother me outside the 9-5 unless you want me to bill you for it. Oh, and expect the additional annoyance from me like reimbursement for all the home electrical power being used to charge your company cellphone and run my company laptop. Ditto for ISP charges.

      Asshat.

    12. Re:Suck it up. by jimbolauski · · Score: 1

      " You get paid to work, not deal with personal matters."

      Amen brother! This view illustrates that people at work are busy organizing their private lives, making doctor's appointments, calling family, brokers, schools, daycare, tweeting nonsense and updating their online presence and other crap instead of doing their fucking job and they apparently feel entitled to it.

      Your forgot /.

      --
      Knowledge = Power
      P= W/t
      t=Money
      Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
    13. Re:Suck it up. by Arkham · · Score: 1

      So, your workplace have no phone? I always had a phone on my desk.

      Welcome to 1992. The last three companies I worked for (AT&T, Nokia, and a startup) did not have desk phones. They're dinosaurs.

      --
      - Vincit qui patitur.
    14. Re:Suck it up. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no. you'll do/get what you contracted for.

      just like everyone else. don't like it? get another job.

    15. Re:Suck it up. by jordanjay29 · · Score: 1

      Not everyone works at a desk.

    16. Re:Suck it up. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know they don't. This "YUO PAID TO WORK" bullshit is always one-way street, and usually emanates from the mouths of sociopaths.

    17. Re:Suck it up. by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 2

      Sure, no problem, if you live in the 50s and have a nonworking wife who doubles as a personal servant. Absent of that, I'm sure the company won't mind paying for a personal concierge to manage my doctor appointments, arrange for the plumber and/or electrician and go to my house and wait for him, her or it until arrival in that 4 hour window, pick up the kids from school, take care of them when they're sick, pick up the car when it's ready.

      A smart phone is a cheap solution. Texts are quicker and more concise then conversations and you have a record of what's said. It can get me whether I'm in the server room, or the sandwich shop at lunch. While it's perfectly understandable that IT doesn't want you to connect to the network, it's delusional to ignore the economic and social reality all around you. The 50s are over. Deal with it.

      --
      Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
    18. Re:Suck it up. by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      But, in The Corporate States of America, you owe your company everything and they owe you nothing. Be happy with the $8.00/hr they give you and, if you speak up again, expect to be terminated. Be glad that's just another term for "fired". For now.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    19. Re:Suck it up. by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      What this startup also a phone company? I love irony.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    20. Re:Suck it up. by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 2

      You get paid to work, not deal with personal matters.

      I hear this argument a lot when the topic of personal calls / errands during work hours comes up. And it’s true of course. the real question is how your employer establishes that you have fulfilled the day’s obligations. Have you done what was asked of you? Or have you kept your seat warm for 8 hours? The two are not the same.

      There are some employers who are very clear on this: they expect you to work for 8 hours, no personal stuff allowed, and no work stuff after hours. And some employees enjoy such a clear separation. I however am not one of them, and I’d be reluctant to accept work in such an environment. One of my current clients took the opposite road and allows people to access their corporate email on personal smart phones. They also allow you to do some personal stuff in the workplace, within reason, and as long as it doesn’t interfere with your job. The idea is that this makes us happier and more effective workers (hey, works for me).

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    21. Re:Suck it up. by MightyYar · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Am I too old or something? We always ran our personal lives from work, but it used to be a lot more invasive. You couldn't take care of many things online, so you had to leave work during working hours to take care of it. Any time you needed customer service, you had to use the telephone at work. You'd have errands to run, so you would either come in late, take an extended lunch, or leave early. Expecting a call? You had to hover near your desk so that you wouldn't miss it.

      I won't defend tweeting, updating Facebook, and the like - but I think that most employers recognize that letting people take care of some personal stuff while at work ultimately improves productivity.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    22. Re:Suck it up. by realityimpaired · · Score: 1

      Most folks who don't work at a desk either work in a fixed place (such as a cashier), or have *some* way to phone in to a control center (walkie-talkie, pager, company-provided cell phone, etc). Even if you don't have that, such as working on a factory floor, there's still the option of using the overhead page system to call you in to a manager's office to take an important call.

      Having a personal cell phone is certainly a convenience, but it's not a necessity. And banning personal cell phones most certainly does *not* preclude having a company cell phone. Most companies are (rightly) worried about your productivity when you're on the clock. Allowing smart phones doesn't necessarily mean that peoples' productivity will drop, but the adage says, give an inch they'll take a mile. *some* (not all) folks will take permission to have a cell phone with them as permission to spend their days reading twitter, facebook, and playing little flash games. They're the ones screwing it up for everybody.

      My experience, btw, with companies that ban cell phones is that as long as it isn't a disruptive influence you're fine. The rule is on the books, but most reasonable managers won't complain if your phone is at your desk (or in a pocket or bag or whatever), as long as you're not actually *using* it, and are getting your work done. That goes for having worked at Dell, HP/Compaq, federal government, and my current job with Ma Bell.

    23. Re:Suck it up. by HereIAmJH · · Score: 2

      A question I get nearly every time I make a Dr appointment. "And why are you coming to see Dr zzzzzz" No, I'll leave my desk and use my cell phone when I make my Dr appointments. My health concerns are not my coworkers business.

      --
      Another day, another update to a Google android app.
    24. Re:Suck it up. by NJRoadfan · · Score: 1

      Not just any phone company, but THE phone company. The irony of not giving workers their primary product: priceless.

    25. Re:Suck it up. by LMariachi · · Score: 1

      "Instead of?" How about "in addition to?"

      If your metric for measuring employee productivity is "do they appear to be doing something directly work-related every second of the day," you are an incompetent manager. All you need to be concerned with is whether an employee is successfully getting the job responsibilities correctly taken care of in a timely manner. If the employee does that while making personal calls or going out for a cigarette or taking a 90 minute lunch or standing on his head, none of that should make the slightest difference. And if you can't tell whether employees are getting their jobs done without personally witnessing them stressing out at their desks for x hours a day, you are the problem.

    26. Re:Suck it up. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think one of the main problems with "work 8 hours, no work at home" is that it can be abused from multiple different angles. The employer can abuse it by working you to the absolute bone for 8 straight hours. It's simply unhealthy to be trying to put out your absolute fastest, 100% productivity for 8 hours, even with the lunch or 15 minute breaks (seriously, WTF is a 15 minute break? You can't even REMOTELY decompress in that time, never mind force-feeding a lunch down your throat that fast.)

      The employee can abuse that by just working hard enough to not get fired, then just get up and leave at exactly 8 hours, no matter if something ridiculously urgent is half-completed or mostly completed. Alternatively, they might just refuse to 'start' something that day, because there isn't enough time left to finish it. Employer needs more employees to do the work that isn't being done.

      And on a side note, I've worked at a company where absolutely any non-work anything is allowed. No even opening a web browser if it's not explicitely needed, no cellphones, no books, no magazines, no writing personal notes, nothing. And guess what, if that day you only had say, a few hours of work... you can either attempt to drag that out for the entire day, or you're stuck literally staring at the wall for hours.

      Do you have ANY idea how hard it is to just sit in one spot and stare at a wall for 4 hours? You would not BELIEVE how annoying it is to essentially stare at the clock and watch the minutes tick by. If there was at LEAST a 'second' display, I could watch the numbers go by. THIS is horrendously demoralizing. Literally nothing to do, but you're not allowed to leave a minute early, and can do nothing to fill the time. You can only re-sort the paperwork on or in your desk so many times before it's either perfect, or so shuffled you have no idea where anything is.

      So being ultra strict is simply bad for everyone. Just let us browse the internet in our downtime. You can block a ton of sites, but at LEAST give us a local news webpage or two. Hell, Wikipedia in general can fill a lot of time. Because what am I supposed to do when I'm caught up to everything otherwise, aside from count the number of stitches in cloth on the cubicle wall? And don't just say 'there's always something you can do', because during the slow season such as right now, right around Christmas and new years, no, no there is NOT anything I can do. Everyone in the office has already done everything that can feasibly be done.

      Thankfully, I now work at a place with a more relaxed atmosphere, and can basically absorb more information by browsing online.

    27. Re:Suck it up. by LMariachi · · Score: 1

      No, you get paid to perform your job responsibilities, not simply "to work." Unless you're a security guard or receptionist or in some similar "warm body" position, there's not necessarily any 1:1 relationship between "time spent working" and "work done." If at the end of the day you can't tell who got shit done and who was slacking, you fail at management.

    28. Re:Suck it up. by celle · · Score: 1

      " You get paid to work, not deal with personal matters."

      No, I work to get paid so I can have more of a personal life. The job is a means to an end not the "end all, be all" of life. Get over it.

    29. Re:Suck it up. by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 1

      A question I get nearly every time I make a Dr appointment. "And why are you coming to see Dr zzzzzz" No, I'll leave my desk and use my cell phone when I make my Dr appointments. My health concerns are not my coworkers business.

      Have you noticed that whenever you call the Dr office from work, they have trouble hearing you at their end? You usually have to repeat yourself several times before finally loudly yelling "Hemorrhoids!"

      --
      Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
    30. Re:Suck it up. by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      The problem is that we now have a culture that does not respect management as a real and independent skill set. Because of this, people who have no skill in management are consistently hired to do that job. This leads to massive incompetence in management. (particularly middle and lower management)

      This then leads to management making decisions that lead to creating more work so that they can rationalize their existence while simultaneously being less productive. It is the equivalent of using KLOCs as a metric for software development. More work doesn't mean more productive. Often it is exactly the opposite. Unskilled management does not understand this.

    31. Re:Suck it up. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      " You get paid to work, not deal with personal matters."

      Amen brother!
      This view illustrates that people at work are busy organizing their private lives, making doctor's appointments, calling family, brokers, schools, daycare, tweeting nonsense and updating their online presence and other crap instead of doing their fucking job and they apparently feel entitled to it.

      Because there is never, ever, a phone call that needs to be made to an organization that closes at 5:00 PM and is only open on weekdays.

    32. Re:Suck it up. by celle · · Score: 1

      "You get paid to work, not deal with personal matters."

      No, I work to get paid so I can have more of a personal life. The job is a means to an end not the "end all, be all" of life. Also I use personal devices so I can protect the privacy of my personal life from my employer who hasn't any right to know about it. The work phone for non-business use was necessary in earlier times, it isn't now with everyone having their own personal carry around phone. If you don't think my personal independence is worth how much I make for the company, fire me and my abilities to bring value will go to someone else, maybe even your competitors who respect my independence more than you.

    33. Re:Suck it up. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, employers rent my personal time to perform a task. If my 'rental' contract says it's 40 hours a week and I put in 40 hours a week work, I can make personal appointments during a 'work-day' if I want to as long as I hold to my end of the contract.

      Especially if a lot of businesses are only open during business hours, which would make things like making appointments quite hard to do outside of business hours.

      Employers rent my time, they don't own me for 40 hours; every employer who does thinks they 'own' employees can go f&*! themselves.

    34. Re:Suck it up. by HereIAmJH · · Score: 3, Funny

      You usually have to repeat yourself several times before finally loudly yelling "Hemorrhoids!"

      Yeah, and my doctor keeps telling me he can't do anything about my boss.

      --
      Another day, another update to a Google android app.
    35. Re:Suck it up. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Given that I can walk at any time and probably have a job within a week, as has been the case for the several jobs I've had over the past few decades, I really don't have to stand for any corporate BS. They need me, I don't really need them.

    36. Re:Suck it up. by Talderas · · Score: 1

      Many times, employees that do not have a phone are performing more physical tasks. Tasks where distractions can be safety hazards. Calling the main work phone number is the best and safest course to get a hold of such a work during an emergency situation since someone WILL answer the phone immediately and the person can get away from their work safely in order to answer the call.

      It's the same thing with someone who does have a desk phone. They may or may not be at their desk. Calling the work number ensures that you get an immediate answer by someone.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    37. Re:Suck it up. by slackware+3.6 · · Score: 1

      Thats funny if I take time off for a Dr. or dentist I have to be able to prove I was there and get permission to go in the first place. So my boss knows anyway. How do your employers know you are not just skiping work. At most work places thats a firing.

    38. Re:Suck it up. by AgentPaper · · Score: 1

      Not everyone works at a desk.

      True. Moreover, even if you do have some company-provided means of contact for your non-desk job, that number may not remain the same from day to day, or even throughout your day. Case in point: as a staff nurse in a large, busy emergency department, I might be issued any one of twenty-four SpectraLink phones at the start of my shift. Each phone, ideally, goes with a job assignment (e.g. "RN #2, Blue Team"). Thus, if you change assignments in mid-shift, as frequently happens (and frequently with little or no notice), you turn in the phone associated with your old assignment and pick up a new. In any given twelve hours, I might switch between team service (we run four teams), Ambulance Bay, Float, Triage, and/or Resuscitation. Overhead page only works if you're in the department (not a given, particularly if you're on float service, as that means you're usually assigned to transport the real sickies to whatever flavor of Critical Care they'll be occupying next). Moreover, we are routinely admonished by Admin not to use the overhead paging system, as it's considered a noise hazard and detrimental to patient well-being. (See also: Press Ganey happy horsepuckey, but I digress.) Call forwarding isn't an option since, as previously mentioned, the phones are tied to jobs - you need to know you'll always be talking to the Ambulance Bay if you call that number, for example.

      Given a system like that, the likelihood of an outside party being able to successfully get hold of you at work, without the assistance of multiple operators and several failed attempts, is pretty slim. Somehow, I don't see the staff at Sometown Elementary being able to reason their way through a parent contact sheet that says "On Mondays from 11A-3P, call 555-1212. From 3-7, call 555-1222. On alternate Tuesdays between 7A and 11A, call 555-1223, unless it's the third Tuesday of the month, in which case I'll be at 555-1335 until 1P," etc.

      To that end, our administration runs a fairly benevolent policy on personal cell phones: they have to be silenced while you're on the unit, you can't make calls or use text-based communication in patient care areas, and the phone has to be completely off and stowed (i.e. even "airplane mode" doesn't count) if you work in a no-electronics unit (i.e. Electrophysiology, Interventional Radiology, Critical Care). Phone cameras, and any other form of recording device, are all lumped under the existing regulations on patient and visitor privacy. Luckily we don't have too many issues with phone impairment of productivity, as the nature of the job makes it quite evident when someone isn't working...

      --
      First rule of trauma: Bleeding always stops.
    39. Re:Suck it up. by hobarrera · · Score: 1

      So, what you're saying is a get payed to not-care about my kids and family during six hours a day?

  5. No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't ban smartphones completely, obviously, unless you are working on extremely sensitive stuff or something. I think the more interesting question is apart from providing basic guidelines of what to do and what not to do and have some page with some helpful security tips, shouldn't an employer be able to expect that folks will be smart and not put un-reliable apps on their smart phones? The issue in the article above is the same problem one can have with laptops with webcams right? Or am I missing something here?

  6. what about people in the feild who use them for wo by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 2

    what about people in the field who use them for work???

    also useing a smart phone is cheaper then cell phone + data card in a laptop.

  7. Excuses, excuses by petteyg359 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    This current reality is that people have started to rely on having their smartphones with them at all times for things such as receiving emergency calls from day cares and schools, making personal calls during normal working hours

    Guess what? Your normal "dumb" phone can do that.

    accessing password managers

    Really? Surely your employer will allow you to install the damn thing on your work computer.

    and scheduling calendar events

    Ever heard of this old invention called "paper"? They put a bunch of sheets together, draw grids and numbers and month names on them, and call it a "calendar". If you're really desperate, perhaps you could use the internet access your employer provides to access your Google calendar on your work computer.

    1. Re:Excuses, excuses by jordanjay29 · · Score: 1

      accessing password managers

      Really? Surely your employer will allow you to install the damn thing on your work computer.

      Not in places with locked down workstations where the individual doesn't work in IT (and thus have the permissions to change it). Besides, you're going to put a password manager on the computer that your employer manages? Do you also browse Facebook/Google+ or other sites with logins at work? Now you've just given your employer your passwords. Good job.

    2. Re:Excuses, excuses by petteyg359 · · Score: 1

      Why are you on Facebook when you're supposed to be working?

  8. What kind of workplace is this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    If its a nuclear weapons research facility then this isn't that unreasonable.
    If its just some normall business then its typical over reaction!

    1. Re:What kind of workplace is this? by jedidiah · · Score: 0

      This is just a manifestation of the 19th century mentality that you should thank the robber baron for the job they have consented to give to you and that you should just accept any bullshit they heap on you and never complain.

      It's just the current anti-labor mentality applied to personal technology.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
  9. Absolutely not (disclaimer within) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My vote is strongly in the 'no' camp. There are other things I use my phone for while I'm working, like listening to music.

    In some very secure areas, like what we have where I work (where banking/financial things are processed), I would say yes. Not so much for the malware, but other information-gathering methods, like cameras and whatnot, that can be used to simply record data on screen.

    1. Re:Absolutely not (disclaimer within) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My vote is strongly in the 'no' camp. There are other things I use my phone for while I'm working, like listening to music.

      And playing Angry Birds, and posting on Facebook, and taking pictures of the hot chick's cleavage, etc. Ya we know what you do with your smartphone, and you could have chipped out $5 at a pawn shop for a used mp3 player so try another excuse, dickweed.

  10. Betteridge's law of headlines. by Raven42rac · · Score: 2

    Someone has to say it, may as well be me. What is this MSN?

    --
    I hate sigs.
    1. Re:Betteridge's law of headlines. by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 1

      Someone has to say it, may as well be me. What is this MSN?

      Nope. It's a serious news source: The Washington . . . Oh, wait. Nevermind.

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
    2. Re:Betteridge's law of headlines. by asylumx · · Score: 1

      What is this MSN?

      No, but this is "Ask Slashdot" (ask.slashdot.com) -- I do expect the headline to contain a question and the answer to not always be "no."

    3. Re:Betteridge's law of headlines. by jordanjay29 · · Score: 1

      I generally expect more open-ended questions out of Ask Slashdot. Yes/No questions are so...finite.

  11. Ban of outside laptops by tepples · · Score: 5, Informative

    Would you ban laptops at work for the same reason?

    A lot of businesses do in fact ban laptops that aren't company-owned.

    1. Re:Ban of outside laptops by TubeSteak · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A lot of businesses do in fact ban laptops that aren't company-owned.

      Exactly. You have a work phone number in exactly the same way that you have a work computer.

      I don't really think "but daycare and school" makes for a compelling argument.
      They have your work number on file, let them use it.

      All the other reasons listed are ones of convienence, not necessity.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    2. Re:Ban of outside laptops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      All the other reasons listed are ones of convienence, not necessity.

      Almost certainly. That said, all employees expect a certain amount of convenience, which varies greatly by situation.

      I'm an IT guy. If a company I worked for started with the, "no smartphones at work" thing just because they wanted to make sure they were getting every last second of productivity out of you, whilst working you overtime for no additional pay (as this rule will almost certainly be, every time), I'd add it to a list of reasons to go elsewhere.

      As with most things, it's not necessarily one thing that makes you leave... it's a lot of things adding to employee dissatisfaction.

    3. Re:Ban of outside laptops by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      It has nothing to do with productivity, it has to do with information security. Usually, smartphones naturally wring more work out of employees. When you invest millions of dollars in collecting and analyzing data and generating a report that can be lifted by taking a picture (assuming other data control procedures are in place and working), you have a valid concern over smartphones floating around your premises. Data tends to end up everywhere. Now imagine you have a report that teams of people have developed over a two year period that contain the essence of your competitive advantage. Do you want smartphones hovering around when you have restricted access to that report, locked out usb devices, blocked unauthorized email access, password protected/encrypted the report files, and locked down the collaboration system? All of that is for naught when an unauthorized or authorized person clicks a few pics with their phone.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    4. Re:Ban of outside laptops by Leti · · Score: 1

      I don't really think that the ability to take pictures is a useful reason for banning smart phones, if I worked for you and really wanted your information and I had physical access to the documents do you really think a ban is going to stop me? Even supposing that your building is super secure and has guards with metal detectors and authority to search people (which I'm pretty sure most places don't) and could catch everyone who attempted to bring a smart phone into the building i doubt they could catch everyone with cameras these days. a 5 second search on a website that's not even specialised in spy equipment turns up a key fob camera and a spy watch camera both of which can probably get through a standard security check without problems. http://www.ebuyer.com/search?q=spy+camera So you've just wasted everyone's time for no appreciable gain in security, yay!

    5. Re:Ban of outside laptops by hobarrera · · Score: 1

      How about "I need it because my life goes on after I leave work".
      Most days I see some friends, or go to collage after work. It would suck if I had to travel home to pick up my cell phone, and loose about an hour a day, because my employer is scared I'll photograph his secrets (while I could simply email them to my personal email).

    6. Re:Ban of outside laptops by pete6677 · · Score: 1

      This is a non-issue 99% of the time. Your company's competitors don't care about seeing your TPS reports. Besides, an unauthorized person could just print that report and take it out the door with them. I've never seen a company with restricted printing. I hate to disappoint you, but nobody cares about your data besides you.

  12. I read something about... by alphatel · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Anything that can breach security in a government setting is worth withholding indefinitely until a practical policy can be approved which reduces risk to near zero.
    For unrelated/unregulated industries, this approach is unreliable, impractical, unprofitable, and let's face it, just plain stupid.

    --
    When the foot seeks the place of the head, the line is crossed. Know your place. Keep your place. Be a shoe.
    1. Re:I read something about... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anything that can breach security in a government setting is worth withholding indefinitely until a practical policy can be approved which reduces risk to near zero.
      For unrelated/unregulated industries, this approach is unreliable, impractical, unprofitable, and let's face it, just plain stupid.

      Are there still unregulated industries left?

    2. Re:I read something about... by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 1

      I think a valid point can be made for R and D shops and certain types of meetings. The real issue are people that are addicted to Twitter Twaddle, games, Facebook - whatever - and never put the thing down to do actual work.

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    3. Re:I read something about... by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      For unrelated/unregulated industries

      Those are often the ones with the most to lose. I did some security work for one which had its entire existence and investors' value 'stored' in the form of trade secrets on one physical server. You can bet security was important to them. Fast forward a few years, they now have licensing deals with several Fortune 50 companies.

      Outside a few specialized agencies, governments tend to do a very poor job with security - it's inconvenient and the political appointees don't have time for that kind of 'nonsense'.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  13. ofcours by Kkloe · · Score: 1

    if the company provides a suitable phone as an alternative and doesnt cost the employee, its called having a work phone and its the employers responsibility to make sure whatever phones they allow that to be secured in the proper way if needed

  14. Key Logger by whitedsepdivine · · Score: 1

    There has been many projects that use statistics to create a remote key logger based off of sound or vibrations picked up by the acceleration of the phone. The sound and vibration in the table you make by typing actually can be used to figure out to a high accuracy what you typed. Meaning a virus in your phone could figure out where you work and your passwords. But also, they could use lasers to measure the vibration of the window to pick up the sound waves. Your screwed either way.

    1. Re:Key Logger by jordanjay29 · · Score: 1

      It's always the lasers that'll get ya.

    2. Re:Key Logger by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Of course at that point, a $5 wrench works wonders.

  15. Device administration software by tepples · · Score: 1

    I imagine that company-owned smartphones managed by the company's device administration software would be allowed, but no others. Upper-level management and phone sales staff would get these as a perk; those under them aren't supposed to be receiving personal calls on company time anyway.

    1. Re:Device administration software by saihung · · Score: 1

      You can take that indentured servitude attitude back to Victorian England where it belongs.

    2. Re:Device administration software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you're missing the point. Most companies I've seen in the past few years, including the current one, has different rules for executives vs. minions.

      We have standard-issue equipment and policies for everyone, but we make exceptions for the C-level guys because they want to have the latest wiz-bang gadgets to play with. CEO overrules CIO and that's that. The policies become meaningless because you made an exception. Although I think rules against personal smartphones are misguided anyway, but that's besides the point.

    3. Re:Device administration software by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      A work phone is not a perk, it is a way to contact you after work. When they are expecting you to work more for free.

      Stop being such a doormat.

    4. Re:Device administration software by pete6677 · · Score: 1

      This is the biggest problem with IT people. They put up with whatever shit gets shoveled onto them, and then wonder why management does not respect them. Try asking any other department to be on call 24/7, regularly work 60+ hours per week, never do personal stuff at the office, and be super-expendable whenever quarterly numbers fall a bit. It would not fly.

  16. Depends on how they are used by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It entirely depends on how the devices are used. If it is BYOD scenario then education and anti-virus should be the norm.
    If the devices are not attached the the corporate network then there is really no issue.

  17. depends where you work by alen · · Score: 3, Insightful

    if you work in a sensitive area then expect high security
    if you work for a US GOVERNMENT agency around classified information then you're probably following these rules already
    if you work in a start up with cool tech you might expect something like this

    if you work in your average workplace no one is going to care

  18. How reasonable is this concern? by spikenerd · · Score: 4, Informative

    How reasonable is this concern?

    Very reasonable, if your employer is a CA. Not at all reasonable if your employer sells hubcaps. Need more info.

    How can this sort of malware be prevented?

    Educate employees. (But your next question shows that you already know this.)

    Is there a way to educate employees...?

    Yes. Employees are not algorithms. That's why we employ them instead of just computers.

    This current reality is that people have started to rely on having their smartphones...

    Yes, if you want effective employees, you should allow them to use their brains, as well as extensions that make them more effective.

    Do you have any questions that lack obvious answers--perhaps something worth discussing in a forum?

    1. Re:How reasonable is this concern? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Think in depth.

      Very reasonable, if....
      Several work organization types, (Dept. of Defense, all their suppliers and researchers, Medical services (doctors offices, medical groups, hospitals) any industry investing in research or depending on being at the front of technology and not having an unlimited budget to finance such expense. All will require corporate privacy to manage risk. Burger flipping at the local McD's? not so much., though perhaps who a company source is for some business or supply relationships? maybe...
      Educate employees....
      Impossible. a few simply can't grasp the concepts or needs which mandate implementing security restrictions, an equal number are sure that their personal desires should never be subjugated to ANYONE or anything, such as restriction of that employee's personal choices, they will not ever comply with any restrictions, except in a token way. With 13 years in the field, many won't get or will resist technology restrictions.

      Can you prevent malware (from getting into personal devices)?
      No... See the previous answers and add to that that malware is driven by money for a solid decade or two. Malware writers have the backing of governments and many of the best minds to break any technical solution.

      This current reality is...
      The point of view wasn't realistic until telephones (wired) became available at individuals homes. We certainly could survive without communications between children and parents if Society wanted to pay for suitable management of children... As individuals we put the hundreds of dollars a month into telephony for convenience and modest improvements in safety. The reality is that the bulk of usage of personal technology (cell phones, smart phones, laptops, etc.) is used for strictly personal use and is a willful robbery of the employer of that time which the employer is using their own technology for personal lessons.

      The current reality....
      Personal technology reduces employee productivity though willful misuse by each employee. A reasonable person can argue the employee's children are safer, which is certainly at the very least somewhat true.

      Simply put everyone knows that personal technology is misused (who hasn't browsed the Internet on company time?)
      The company does suffer loss and can be expected to try to take reasonable measures to improve the productivity of employees.
      When I was influential in making policy in such issues (prior to retiring) I opted for a policy of separate but available. The company provided a 'guest' vlan for personal devices, and actively discouraged use of personal devices for company work without approval of each individual device. That guest vlan had unrestricted access to the public Internet, but no access at all to internal resources. The company also provided technology, such as laptops, to individual employees who were likely to be required to perform work while not on the company 'campus' (hospital involved with several buildings). Most of the management level staff were happy with this, a few weren't. Most of the non-management staff were okay with this, they commonly had plenty of work to keep them busy. The most common failing was in taking personal calls.
      The need for privacy (patient information) is clear, but there is no concern over theft of intellectual property/assets. So this solution might be weak in some commercial or government situations.

      As a final thought. I wonder what happened to the company at the original poster's work place which caused them to spend the resouces of it's staff to implement the outlined change?

  19. Dogfooding where everyone's an app tester by tepples · · Score: 1

    Then why not add "app tester" to everyone's job title and call it dogfooding?

  20. Certainly in some contexts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Researchers from the U.S. Naval Surface Warfare Center have developed malicious software that can remotely seize control of the camera on an infected smartphone and employ it to spy

    Is your organization one that would likely be the target of a reconnaissance attack by the US Navy? If so, then yes smartphone use should probably be limited because it appears that they have some pretty slick malware at their disposal. If not, then for fuck's sake get a grip. If you don't trust your employees enough to neither keep their phones relatively malware-free AND to not point them at sensitive things (never point a camera at something you wouldn't want anyone else to see, just like you never point a gun at something you wouldn't want to shoot) then you probably need to find new employees (or work on your trust issues).

    1. Re:Certainly in some contexts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The Navy showed that it can be done. Presumably, the same could be accomplished by foreign governments, corporations, and even individuals.

  21. There are solutions, and the users would complain by morcego · · Score: 2

    It is entirely possible to allow employees to have their smartphones and even notebooks, while keeping them isolated from the company's main network. I did this once for a client. It is not trivial but it is also not magic.

    However, after some time, the complain about people not being able to use those equipments to have full access started piling up, to a point it was decided it would be a lesser problem just to ban them.

    What people need to understand is that they are inside a company, not their homes. Yes, it can be interesting to the company to allow some accept and freedom, thus improving morale and productivity, but controls are needed, both for security and legal reasons. That is unaccepted to enough people to make it not worthy for the companies to implement.
     

    --
    morcego
  22. Email/calendars in the corporate world by relikx · · Score: 2

    Yes, these functions can be easily taken care of with a laptop. However with the constant shuffling from meeting to meeting many times the phone often becomes the go-to device when away from the desk. When away from the office, communications in the evening, over the weekends, etc. are becoming increasingly more prevalent.

    This brings up the entire philosophical debate on how much more (or less) productive everything makes people who now no longer have the luxury of checking out, having a singular focus, is forced to multitask, etc. but the greater point is if the expectations are for the constant connectivity of employees in a workplace then you have to take the good with the bad.

  23. Paid to WORK by mindcandy · · Score: 1

    Is it reasonable? .. absolutely.
    I routinely visit a location like this .. when you go through the metal detector/xray if they see a phone (or anything else with a microphone/camera) it gets confiscated and you get it back when you leave. I don't have any issue with this at all.

    You're forgetting that you're being paid to WORK .. not attend to personal matters. You have a phone on your desk, don't you? .. I'm fairly certain that in an emergency, someone can call the main number of your employer and say "this is X's daycare, Y just fell down the steps .. we need to speak with Z immediately" and you'll get the call. Remember .. kids survived just fine before cellphones and Google calendar.

    The malware concern is legitimate as well .. while it might be technically feasible to create separate networks or require MDM middleware for BYOD it's easier for them to just say "leave it in the car". Think about it .. a simple app can turn your smartphone into a GSM->Wifi bridge, webcam, remote bug, etc. Heck, just this week we reprogrammed a old Android phone and stuck it in a plant to catch somebody stealing out of the office fridge.

    1. Re:Paid to WORK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You're forgetting that you're being paid to WORK .. not attend to personal matters.
      Ok, I'll stay until 5:03 this evening to make up for the time I spent taking that phone call.

    2. Re:Paid to WORK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So ... I take it your company pays overtime for any additional minute of work past 5pm, right?

  24. It Depends... by IonOtter · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If you're working on material or systems that are classified, or something akin to the iPhone 6, then yeah. Letting *any* communications device into the work area is a very bad idea. You are being targeted. Probably very specifically, too.

    If you're not working on anything of that nature, then probably not. Who cares if anyone sees the inside of your office? Or hears you talking sports scores? It's creepy as Hell, and you should probably be more worried about the fact that someone is mucking around inside your phone, listening to you.

    The exception to this, is when you walk by some moron's desk, and they have their smartphone plugged into the USB port of the computer, MOUNTED AS A HARD DRIVE.

    A computer which is inside the company firewall.

    Sometimes, you just have to assume the lowest common denominator, because convenience in listening to an MP3 collection will always trump common sense.

    --
    [End Of Line]
  25. Verizon and Sprint do not use CSIM by tepples · · Score: 1

    Guess what? Your normal "dumb" phone can do that.

    Only in countries where it is common practice to share one SIM between two different phones, a "dumb" phone carried to work and a smartphone used elsewhere. In the United States, on the other hand, Verizon, Sprint, and MVNOs using either of their networks do not use CSIM cards; instead, they program the subscriber identity directly into the handset.

    1. Re:Verizon and Sprint do not use CSIM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Verizon uses A combination CSIM/USIM on all 4G LTE phones, meaning most 2011 and newer Verizon smartphones are able to perform a SIM swap scenario. All data is on the SIM, nothing is manually programmed into the phone. AT&T and T-Mobile also use SIM cards (USIM) so you can swap any GSM phone. If you are a big enough business to worry about data theft, you're not using Sprint anyway!

  26. I'm not allowed to have ANY cell phone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I work in pharmaceutical research. Policy is no cell phone at all, not laptop. No electronics go in and none go out.

  27. Back a few decades ago .... by PPH · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ... when I worked for Boeing, this was their company policy. No cameras, radios, or recording devices were allowed on company property. Although this was necessary in areas where classified DoD work was being done, they just applied this policy to all facilities. As cell phones and PDAs with cameras andd recording capabilities became commonplace, they pretty much gave up on enforcing the 'no devices allowed' rule (probably still in force in actual secure areas).

    I would consider them (Boeing) and others in their line of business to have about the most conservative position on such technology. Seeing as how they have pretty much given up on such rules, I don't see how any other employers expect to get away with them.

    Also, if employees are going to steal proprietary data (for which I'm sure there is a company policy prohibiting said activity), sneaking a camera, USB drive or whatever onto the property in violation of rules is not going to be a deterrent.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
    1. Re:Back a few decades ago .... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My experience is that it's only in the "secure" areas these days at most DoD contractors. YMMV, anecdote is not the singular of data, and other typical disclaimers apply, but in general - you can leave your phone with security personnel before entering a secure area, or locked in your desk if your desk happens to be in a non-secure area. And if you need to make a call, nobody gives a shit unless you're trying to do it in a secured area on an obviously personal device.

      I don't understand all the people lining up to shout about how they can't have the bountiful teat of a cell phone data connection in their mouths 24x7, though. If you have kids, give daycare your work line/extension, or your "corporate-issued/secured" device number, and/or forward calls from your cell phone to your land line during the day. Most employers also have a "reasonable personal use" policy for your work phones: as long as you're not calling phone sex lines based in Fiji and racking up thousands of dollars in charges, they probably aren't going to say much. Most legitimate personal calls I can think of needing to make from my employer's office during business hours are either local numbers (doctor, dentist, little johnny's daycare, little jeany's school, the pizza place around the corner), or are toll free numbers (the bank, the credit card company, the irs, etc. etc. etc) - it's not costing the company anything above and beyond the cost of standard phone service at that point, so why would they care, as long as you're not abusing the privilege? Almost every private company I've worked for has had a "we understand things come up, but please do minimize personal use" policy when it comes to corporate equipment.

      Alternately, if you have kids, and really do need to be completely "dark" during the day, rethink your choice of employment, or think about whether mom/nanny/dad/grandpa/grandma might not be an appropriate & willing emergency contact as well.

    2. Re:Back a few decades ago .... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the OP's company isn't worried about intentional theft via employees (or at least understands that banning such devices won't help that situation) but rather unintentional theft via malware installed on their personal devices. At least that's my take from the specific questions asked.

      The problem is banning the devices doesn't get to the core issue, and that is having an insufficiently secured network. That's the real problem they need to address. If they don't, they are asking for problems the first time that policy is broken by anyone, from a new employee who doesn't know the rules, to an employee who thinks they are above the rules (especially management) to a visitor that the rules doesn't technically apply to, and wouldn't know about it anyway.

    3. Re:Back a few decades ago .... by mlts · · Score: 1

      For sensitive applications, as well as confidential+, banning cellphones goes without saying.

      However, if a company is afraid of people taking pictures in general, then they have an HR issue or an issue with their management technique, something that is not going to be solved by anything technical, even mandatory body cavity searches.

      Company morale is a concept often ignored by the PHB types (it isn't a revenue stream like the MBA class teaches), but ignoring that aspect means that employees can and will get around rules put in place. Yes, that cellphone may be banned... but there will be the guy coming in with the spy camera who will be doing it just to get around what he/she feels are tyrannical rules.

      The ironic thing is that companies who focus on the morale aspect tend to have fewer security problems in general, mainly because employees tend to either actively adhere to policies in place, or even actively report "hmm, that's not right" incidents. If a fire door is ajar, an employee would make sure it is closed.

      Contrast this to companies with poor morale where at best employees might comply to policies only if their job was at stake, and anything out of the ordinary would be ignored, "they don't pay me enough to report that the fire door is cracked open."

  28. Good luck by ironicsky · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If, after 20+ years of personal computers we still can't stop people from accidentally downloading malware, good luck preventing it on smart phones and other portable devices. The problem is, and always will be, the ignorance of the user.

    1. Re:Good luck by PPH · · Score: 2

      Bring your cell phone to work. Just don't connect it to the company network.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    2. Re:Good luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      or better yet, don't have a company network.

      BYOND - Bring Your Own Network & Device

    3. Re:Good luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If, after 20+ years of personal computers we still can't stop people from accidentally downloading malware, good luck preventing it on smart phones and other portable devices.

      Well, this sort of thing is trivial with the blackberry platform.

      Many very smart people at Research in Motion have thought long & hard about how to secure mobile devices & communications from end to end.

      It's kind of sad that most people don't care and would rather have an iphone/android that makes it trivially easy for a rogue app to steal all your information.

    4. Re:Good luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      iOS has been around for at least six years, and there has been -zero- issues of malware on the platform with regards to non-jailbroken devices. Were I worried, I'd make a profile that is pushed to devices if they want to connect, force iOS 6 and either iPhone 4S or 5, and be done with it. With an OS that has demonstrated 100% security in the field, I'm not really worried. Android, on the other hand, I'd not let near any network of any value.

    5. Re:Good luck by Thyamine · · Score: 1

      Exactly my thought. People can't protect their workstations, so how is the phone the problem? If people are going to steal data or download malware, it will happen regardless of lack of intent or rules preventing devices.

      And yes, I'm being paid to work, but since I also expected to have a smart phone to respond to emails/calls after hours, I expect to have the same applied to family/personal issues during business hours.

      --
      I will shred my adversaries. Pull their eyes out just enough to turn them towards their mewing, mutilated faces. Illyria
    6. Re:Good luck by Lodragandraoidh · · Score: 1

      I think you have that backwards: the problem is and always has been the creation of computing systems that require the average person to understand computer science to safely use these devices. That was a failure from day one - but having a EULA that says "company X is not responsible for your use of the software" was easier than fixing the problem.

      I would say this is our failure - the minority of people who are in the IT/Technology field that are computer scientists and responsible for designing and building the devices and networks; our purpose is to help people (all people) - not just a few who are clued in.

      --

      Lodragan Draoidh
      The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
    7. Re:Good luck by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 1

      I have no problem with that. Last I heard, they didn't even allow iPhones to connect with our network. But I still have my phone in case my aging mother needs to reach me. And considering how often I'm in a meeting or working with a cow-orker at his desk, it's easier to reach me at my cell than at my work phone.

      --
      Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
    8. Re:Good luck by ironicsky · · Score: 1

      Right, until you accidentally surf to a site like jailbreakme.com, which jailbreaks your phone instantly. Unlike Jailbreakme.com, which has white-hat purposes, using the same methodology a blackhat could have hacked any number of websites, installed a similar exploit, but instead of installing Cydia with a nice UI telling you what they are doing, they do a blind install, they installed a keylogger, call logger and proxy all your web traffic through their servers. You wouldn't be any wiser since there are no 3rd party virus scanners for iPhones that have access to anything outside of userspace.

    9. Re:Good luck by ironicsky · · Score: 1

      I disagree. You don't have to browse to pr0n sites and download the too good to be true unlimited free pr0n browser, you don't have to use bearshare to download files from people you don't know. If people stuck to reputable sites without going off the beaten path looking for grey area content they wouldn't get in trouble You wouldn't take candy from a stranger in the real world, and if someone said "Hey, I have this awesome 55" 4k TV, its yours for $1,000" You would probably be skeptical, considering they cost around $20,000. People seem to forget to apply the same judgement they use in the real world when deciding whether to trust someone or something to the digital world. Also, in the real world people tend to read warning signs a bit more carefully, online everyone just clicks "OK" when a popup happens without actually reading the message.

    10. Re:Good luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It only jailbreaks your phone instantly if you are woefully out of date on your iOS system version, so this really isn't a practical problem, just a theoretical one.

  29. Re:what about people in the feild who use them for by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 3, Informative

    People in the field would have a device provided by the company, because the employee would be billing back all related expenditure (data and voice) to the company anyway. That device would be locked down by the IT dept; Both Android and iPhone support device policies and central management now, and BlackBerry was designed for this use.

    --
    Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
  30. Re:what about people in the feild who use them for by mindcandy · · Score: 1

    Then it's a company-issued phone with company-controlled software. That means no angry birds or other goofing-off apps.
    If you're allowing BYOD for company use you're asking for problems, but that too is manageable with the proper software containerization.

  31. Actually... by dubdays · · Score: 1

    A lot of people I know are using their personal smartphones for work, including me. Check on a server, bring up an app. Check out the WiFi, bring up another app. I have tons of apps on my personal phone that have saved countless hours diagnosing issues

    Fact is, an awful lot of employers should be kissing our asses for using our own personal devices to be more productive at work.

    1. Re:Actually... by filthpickle · · Score: 1

      In your case, that is a fact. For most other cases....let me stand up and look around...yeah, at least half of my co-workers are half-assed surreptitiously watching TV on their personal phones.

      There are, without a doubt, legitimate reasons to have your personal phone at work. But the vast majority of people are going to abuse it.

    2. Re:Actually... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like you're half-assed browsing /. at work, in stead of working... You're suggesting your employer should ban internet browsing as well? And bathroom breaks, surely people are going to abuse those? Your argument is incredibly short sited; if the employees are fart arsing around instead of working, they'll do so with or without smart phones.

    3. Re:Actually... by filthpickle · · Score: 1

      No, not at all.

      I can look at a web page in as many tiny slices as I care to take. Watching a show doesn't work as well when you do that. Also, I am on lunch right now....but that doesn't matter. I am not trying to turn this into a working class hero debate....I am just saying that people saying that they use their personal phone for things that are beneficial to the company are either in the minority, or lying.

      An aside...I think this watching TV or movies while at work thing is a good test for how old you are. Over a certain age (that I am over) and it just really, really bothers you. If you were reading a book or a webpage it would bother me a lot less. Perhaps it is a get off my lawn thing...but it is just incredibly disrespectful IMO.

  32. Not just malware that is an issue by oobayly · · Score: 5, Informative

    We were have some pretty bizarre network problems in our office one day - some machines were able to connect to our db server whilst some couldn't, and other could intermittently. Long story short*, somebody's smartphone (Android in this case) was responding to ARP requests (requesting the MAC of the server) even though it was showing its IP address as being assigned by DHCP. I reckon its previous IP on the user's home network was the same as our server, and for some reason kept answering to them.

    *Once I realised that packets didn't seem to be making it to the server (pings were intermittent), it dawned upon me to check the ARP tables on the clients. Looking up the manufacturer of the MAC address didn't immediately help as I didn't recognise the name, though I assumed it was a phone. At that stage I wasted time looking through all the phones looking for an IP address conflict (bad assumption). Finally looked up the DHCP leases for the offending MAC, found it's current IP (no hostname was provided by the client), found the offending phone, and very nearly shoved it the arse of the owner.

    1. Re:Not just malware that is an issue by cwj123 · · Score: 2

      Why in god's name would your DB server be on the same subnet as your wireless network? Never mind having some sort of arp-protection in place (ie if the local DHCP server didn't assign it's IP don't listen to it).

    2. Re:Not just malware that is an issue by oobayly · · Score: 1

      Why in god's name would your DB server be on the same subnet as your wireless network?

      Fair point, unfortunately this is a small office with 20 odd desks, and it's a case of "it works, so leave it". It's not ideal, and there's a great deal that I would like to fix.

      ... arp-protection ...

      In this case, I'm not convinced that that would have helped - as far as the DHCP server was concerned, the phone was using the IP assigned to it.
      The phone was responding to ARP requests for 192.168.0.3 and 192.168.1.50, thus corrupting the ARP tables of other wireless clients. Please correct me if you're wrong.

      Your point still stands - having the core machines on a separate subnet would definitely have prevented the problem.However, again, correct me if I'm wrong - if the core machines are on a different subnet then the client will forward every frame to the router - something I had been hoping to avoid.

    3. Re:Not just malware that is an issue by oobayly · · Score: 1

      Erm, that should say, "please correct me if I'm wrong"

    4. Re:Not just malware that is an issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      . Finally looked up the DHCP leases for the offending MAC, found it's current IP (no hostname was provided by the client), found the offending phone, and very nearly shoved it the arse of the owner.

      I think I saw the video of that on YouPorn. 3 stars.

      But seriously, kudos for thinking to check the ARP tables. I would have been messing around with the DB server software.

    5. Re:Not just malware that is an issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe it's time to separate your semi-public wifi network from your highly important, mission critical, LAN...

    6. Re:Not just malware that is an issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fact that you allowed Wi-Fi connected devices to pull from the same address pool and sub-net as your wired LAN means you don't know what you are doing.
      ALL Wireless should be on (at the very least) a different VLAN or an entirely separate, firewalled sub-net that cannot route back to your LAN (dump it out on the Internet and be done with it.) Not doing so is inviting disaster (and very simple to accomplish.)
      If you catch any employees connecting Wireless Routers to your network, make it an HR matter by having a written policy against it.
      Once the first offender is dealt with, it won't happen again (and if you get the "but I'm a VP!!!" argument, it's time to look for another job anyway.)

    7. Re:Not just malware that is an issue by celle · · Score: 1

      "found it's current IP (no hostname was provided by the client), found the offending phone, and very nearly shoved it the arse of the owner."

            Maybe you should give the guy a finders fee for finding a design flaw in your network.

    8. Re:Not just malware that is an issue by oobayly · · Score: 1

      Just out of interest, what would your response have been if I had said "another wireless client A” instead of "db server"? In that case when packets were sent from a peer on the same subnet, or possibly packets from the WAN to client-a, they wouldn't be received as the offending phone would be still be corrupting ARP tables in the network. In fact it would have been harder to troubleshoot as I would have assumed it was client-a's problem. No amount of playing with the machine would have fixed the problem.

      Yes, it showed up a flaw in the network, however my point was that a simple bug on a phone can very easily do something such as ARP poisoning, and no matter how many VLANs you use, it will always be possible.

      I suppose everyone is using private VLANs, dhcp snooping and static ARPs on their switches.

    9. Re:Not just malware that is an issue by SkimTony · · Score: 1

      I don't know: I think I like it the first way better. I might have to sneak that into an e-mail.

  33. People are thinking of things wrong by RobertLTux · · Score: 1

    1 you don't have a "cell phone" you have a Mobile Computing Device (that does phone calls)

    2 you don't have to be connected to your personal/business world 24/7/52

    for the lower end get a metal box of some sort line it with paper and then for a few hours a week put your MCP in the box and CLOSE it

    for the 1% folks get somebody to line an old cigar box with metal and then silk and a few hours a month put your MCP in the box and close it.

    and no but then BYOD policies are STUPID if your business requires cells/MCPs then ISSUE THEM

    --
    Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
    1. Re:People are thinking of things wrong by celle · · Score: 1

      "1 you don't have a "cell phone" you have a Mobile Computing Device (that does phone calls)"

      Given, So is the microwave in the lunchroom, the printer, the deskphone, your car, etc.

      "2 you don't have to be connected to your personal/business world 24/7/52"

              You have no right to tell me what I have to do or don't have to do in my personal/business world.

              Next two lines are just stupid. MCPs are bought and kept with your person to be used where ever you are not sitting in a box.

      "BYOD policies are STUPID if your business requires cells/MCPs then ISSUE THEM"

            Then use them for business only and keep your personal cell for your personal business. And IT use static address and hard-wired network connections for real security instead of being lazy about it with wireless and dhcp.

  34. Don't connect to the company network by Rastl · · Score: 2

    It's that simple. Buy a wall charger (if you need to charge the phone during the day) and keep the thing completely off the grid at work. There's no way I would connect a storage device to my company network. They tend to frown on that kind of thing.

    So where's the problem?

  35. As ye reap by Amorymeltzer · · Score: 2

    Is it fair? Sure. But if they want to ban your phone in their office, politely tell them you are quite fairly banning their office on your phone. No work after 5, no emails over the weekend, no contact over holidays; that stick goes both ways and if you can't bring your life to work you shouldn't have to bring your work into your life.

    --
    I live in constant fear of the Coming of the Red Spiders.
    1. Re:As ye reap by zacherynuk · · Score: 1

      Oooh I like this sentiment. If only life was so black and white!

  36. Wifi by zacherynuk · · Score: 1

    A properly managed wifi infrastructure should mitigate most of the concerns.
    We normally roll out Internal, Internal Limited Access (eg to internal mail gateway or intranet only for pool devices) and Guest wifi AP’s.
    Phones, tablets and non corporate-controlled notebooks get guest AP access only, so that any internal access is through normal firewalled routes. All wifi access is via firewalled connections, even internal.

    1. Re:Wifi by zlives · · Score: 1

      must take into account USB connectivity as well.

  37. Good luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Good luck getting smart/skilled people to work for you -- anyone with half a brain (and/or a shred of self-respect) wouldn't subject themselves to such a workplace for half of their waking hours.

  38. Only the IT department... by Sir_Eptishous · · Score: 1

    should be allowed the use of smartphones.

    --
    We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
    1. Re:Only the IT department... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and the execs and their favorite cronies

  39. This pisses me off by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The assumption that you can't just leave your smartphone in your car is absurd.

    This current reality is that people have started to rely on having their smartphones with them at all times for things such as receiving emergency calls from day cares and schools

    If only you had a phone at your desk and work and could give out this "work number" like people have been doing for about, oh, a hundred years?

    making personal calls during normal working hours (i.e. to make doctor's appointments)

    Pick up the phone at your desk and dial.

    accessing password managers

    This is pretty absurd. There's a few million people in this world who don't require a password manager on their PERSONAL PHONE.

    and scheduling calendar events

    Jesus H Christ, get off facebook and get back to work. What is this world coming to.

    1. Re:This pisses me off by mark-t · · Score: 2

      The assumption that you can't just leave your smartphone in your car is absurd.

      No, it is not. For several reasons.

      First of all, insurance companies explicitly tell customers *NOT* to leave any valuables in their automobile.

      Secondly, auto-insurance does not cover any property stolen from an automobile anyways, and personal property insurance often doesn't generally cover things left in an automobile while you are at work anyways unless you are paying on a special (and much more expensive) plan that explicitly covers theft from your car.

      Finally, not everybody drives to work in the first place.

      This is work, not school. I can keep my cell phone turned off or even in my briefcase if my employer feels its necessary, but I can't think of any reason that I should not be allowed to bring it onto premises at all other than unhealthy paranoia.

    2. Re:This pisses me off by loonwings · · Score: 0

      I work for a snack food bakery, and they ban cell phones on the production floor. They cite microbes on phones for the reason. Of course, that's the one food safety rule that managers and supervisors are allowed to break...

  40. Get out much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative

    EVERY worker does not have "a desk", in fact less than 10% of the workers at my present workplace do NOT have "a desk", they have toolboxes on wheels.

    Your experience does NOT define ALL reality.

    GET OVER YOURSELF!

    1. Re:Get out much? by filthpickle · · Score: 1

      If less than 10% of your co-workers do NOT have desks, then most of them do have desks.

    2. Re:Get out much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      EVERY worker does not have "a desk", in fact less than 10% of the workers at my present workplace do NOT have "a desk", they have toolboxes on wheels.

      So what you're saying is that there is NO PHONE anywhere at the job? Nobody else who could answer a call and fucking come get you?

      How about YOU quit crying like a bitch and figure shit out? Seriously, how the fuck did you manage to take a piss without someone holding your hand this morning?

      I have no doubt you're the same AC with the sob story about your fucking kid, and that is SO much bullshit from start to end. You think special medical issues just fucking showed up last week? Do you NOT know how to leave the school specific instructions including that they contact an actual medical professional? Never heard of a medical bracelet?
      And seriously, do you really think that you're not a very extreme fucking edge case? Most places will make allowances for that sort of thing. If your precious little flower is in such danger of immediate death at any instant that 5 minutes to walk to the shop floor and get your ass is too long, then they shouldn't be in a regular fucking school to start with!

      Look plenty of people have had NO problems dealing with shit far worse than you long before there were cell phones. You can still get a fucking pager. And if all that still isn't enough and you just absolutely MUST have that phone with you 24/7 then you need to buckle down and find a different fucking job. Or maybe your precious union can chip loose with some of your union dues to pay to have a goddamn phone installed in the shop!

      Fuck, all you people do is cry, there are a million solutions to your problems that don't require you to have your personal youtube/facebook/email/amazon slacker device on you all the goddamn time.

      (sorry for the rant, but this shit is just really getting under my skin lately. I get so fucking sick of people who spend a metric assload of effort looking for an excuse when 30 seconds would present a perfectly viable alternative.)

    3. Re:Get out much? by Talderas · · Score: 1

      Most of our employees do not have a desk. They have toolboxes on wheels, as you put. Those types of employees should not be carrying smartphones on them anyway for multiple reasons.

      They're more likely to damage their property throughout the course of the workday and having it ring or vibrate while they're working on equipment could be distracting and consequently a safety hazard.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
  41. Ban cell phones by cod3r_ · · Score: 1

    If you are going to ban cell phones ban them. Don't single out "smart phones" that to me just seems silly. A lot of jobs probably require to some degree that people have their cell phones though, but we are entering an era where there will be nothing but smart phones. An exercise in futility to ban them I'd say.

  42. MobileIron by hagrin · · Score: 4, Interesting

    We are actually in the midst of going through something similar at my company (a very open, not secretive environmental firm). We recognized through employee surveillance and traffic logs that cell phones were a huge security risk at our firm and the decision was made to control as much as we could while still maintaining our "Mom & Pop" company feel.

    We switched all of our cell phones from one carrier to ATT and we purchased the MobileIron software (VPS and Sentry) to control all the aspects of the company phones that enter our buildings. In addition, for the people who chose the monthly subsidy as opposed to a company phone, we prevent them from getting WiFi access from within our offices as best we can (MAC whitelisting isn't foolproof but helps with 99% of our users). We don't allow the non-company provided phones to work if they are plugged into workstations via USB cable. With MobileIron I can control basically every aspect of their smartphones including camera control, data usage, app installs, etc.

    Now, we don't have this fully running in production yet so I can't comment on the pitfalls I'm sure to face, but the short answer is workplaces don't necessarily need to ban smartphones as that could actually cripple some business processes; however, they are definitely a security threat that need to be managed just like other corporate and employee owned devices.

  43. What a good little slave you are by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 4, Insightful

    My god, this attitude is amazing, what primitive part of the world did you grow up in? Most normal employers realize that work and private live are not so easily seperated and simply allow the two to intertwine. If I ask someone to stay late because of deadlines, can I then deny them time to make calls during office hours to arrange private things? Hell, this must be an American thing. Do you also object to people using the company printer?

    Of course, normal people realize there is a line, you can print out a form, your CV is a bit touchy and you do NOT print out a thousand copies of your novel but come on!

    If your tried that master slave attitude in Europe, you would find yourself soon with no employees left.

    Unless there is a VERY real need for security, everyone carries a mobile phone with them in Europe. The idea you shouldn't answer a personal call during office hours is just so 19th century. Come on, join us in the future, we got cookies!

    Ten to one this gti_guy doesn't have a job, lives in a trailer on government assistance and whines about all those leeches living of the state.

    People good enough at their job to have one know they are valuable and companies are willing to keep them happy.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:What a good little slave you are by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If your tried that master slave attitude in Europe, you would find yourself soon with no employees left.

      Yes, please cite more examples of economies in protracted recessions for us to look up to! Oh how eager we Americans are to model ourselves after the wonderful European model of poverty and despair (with a touch of war thrown in every 50 or so years).

    2. Re:What a good little slave you are by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No, it's certainly not an "American" thing. It's a bunch of indignant unmarried, childless aspies who've never actually faced the problem spouting off about their "issues" with policies like this. And I'm pretty sure there's no national boundaries for that.

      Most employers have a "reasonable personal use" policy. If you're spending hours on the phone gossipping with your neighbors, then yeah, you'll probably be talked to. Have to take a short break to call the doctor's office to schedule a checkup? Call your wife to ask her to pick up the kids because you're going to be stuck at the office a little later than expected? Call the plumber to come fix that frozen pipe? Arrange with UPS to pick up the package at their delivery center since you won't be home to receive it? Get a call from daycare to let you know that little Johnny just had an allergic reaction?

      These are all typical things you might need to do during the day, and these are all typical things that corporate "acceptable use policy" will deem "acceptable use," except for certain very specific cases - i.e., DoD contracting, very very secret "trade secret" work, etc. Most companies won't allow you to connect personal devices to the corporate network, but more and more of them are setting up secondary "internet only" networks for phones, tablets, personal laptops, and the like. This concern about "they could hijack your phone and take pictures of your facility and map the interior!" is silly for anybody who doesn't work in a top secret facility.

      Here's an easy rule of thumb test: if you can bring your kid into your office and let them sit around there with you... you don't need to restrict cell phone use.

    3. Re:What a good little slave you are by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 0

      I've found that there are two kinds of people that allow work and the rest of their lives to intermingle, and I can't stand either.

      The first are those that have no lives, and are their work. These people work to live and live to work. They are rotten humans of the worst kind, and are impossible to have any sort of friendship with, even at work.

      The second are almost as bad as the first, and often turn into the first. These people, work to "get ahead' and typically will do anything "extra" to earn brownie points or brown nose points. Most of the time, these people slave away, and never "get ahead", and it ends up eating them up and spitting them out, or turning them into the first kind, after they have killed any relationships they once had. On a few occasions, someone from here can advance to a higher stage in life.

      Me, I work hard for my 8 hours, and after that, you either pay me more, or I go and live my life. I emphasize that I work hard for 8 hours, if that isn't good enough for the boss, too bad, pay me more.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    4. Re:What a good little slave you are by Nadir · · Score: 1

      Oh please, the US is just offloading their economic fragility on everybody else because they can: so you may not be in recession technically, but the fact that you are printing dollars on demand and dumping your crappy "financial inventions" on the rest of the world is hiding the fact that you are in fact far over the edge of a default.

      --
      --
      The world is divided in two categories:
      those with a loaded gun and those who dig. You dig.
    5. Re:What a good little slave you are by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The idea you shouldn't answer a personal call during office hours is just so 19th century. Come on, join us in the future, we got cookies!

      That's probably because until the 20th century, nobody HAD a phone.

      Most normal employers realize that work and private live are not so easily seperated and simply allow the two to intertwine.

      Most of them do. That has nothing to do with carrying a phone with you all day long. If there aren't any phones at your job, then I can understand that you might need to have one with you. But except for actual emergencies, don't use them while you're working. You get breaks, use it then. But if you do have a phone available, and/or someone to take messages or get come get you in an emergency, you have no need for a smartphone at all.

      Do you also object to people using the company printer?

      Of course, normal people realize there is a line,

      Yes, exactly. Normal people realize that there is a line regarding phone use. But there are fewer and fewer normal people these days. And just like you almost always end up with some jerk trying to print his college textbook on the company printer, there's some other jerk busy on their smartphone all day long while the other employees have to pick up his slack.

      Small shops often have the ability to recognize who is abusing their personal devices and who is not, and can take action. Large companies don't have this luxury most of the time, and often will open themselves to lawsuits if they appear to treat one person different than the others. Some jobs there is absolutely no excuse for taking a phone call while doing them. Like the cashier last week at my grocery store who had an "emergency" call in the middle of my transaction. The emergency? The guy who was going to purchase booze for her and her other under-age friends wasn't available, and they had to line up another buyer in time for the party. Yes, she thought she was being discreet, but I heard the entire conversation because of how loud her volume was turned up.

      People good enough at their job to have one know they are valuable and companies are willing to keep them happy.

      Bullshit. There are a million idiots who aren't worth a shit out there with jobs right this second. And I'm more than happy to fire them for slacking off on MY dollar so I can hire the next guy in line who actually has a work ethic, and frankly I'd much rather feed his kids. No, I'm not a slavedriver, and I don't generally ban personal electronics even smartphones, but there are plenty of employers who should.

    6. Re:What a good little slave you are by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny, I work in a DoD vault with no portable electronics (government property specifcially included). Somehow, I manage to live my life, My kids still get sick occasionally, and I go get them. Somehow, in spite of being me, I manage to survive with a government desktop with netnanny and a DSN phone as the only electronics on my desk. The horrors.

    7. Re:What a good little slave you are by dandelionblue · · Score: 1

      That's nonsense. There are plenty of European workplaces that don't allow mobile phones to be used except on breaks, and a decent number that don't allow them to be carried. I've only actually worked at two different companies, and one had the first rule and the other the second rule. This was in England, from 2009 onwards. This is because we're supposed to be dealing with patients, not sodding around on Angry Birds or taking a distracting, non-emergency personal call (what fancy smartphone doesn't have a voicemail feature?). Emergency calls can go to our normal landline phone system.

    8. Re:What a good little slave you are by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      How about people like me that enjoy having lunch every day with my son? Who likes being able to take off for a 10am matinee with him, and then make up for that time at 10pm when inspiration hits and I get even more done? Who enjoys just hearing my son playing in the other room? Who took a two month road trip around the country... working from the back seat of the minivan while my wife drove, and then stopped and enjoyed all of the various attractions when we got to them? Most people can't just take 2.5 months off of work and go on a road trip. Because I had a manager that was skilled in the trade of management, and I mingled my work and home life, I was able to take a trip with my family that is out of reach of most Americans without taking any more of a financial hit than most people take during a weekend trip to Disneyland.

    9. Re:What a good little slave you are by Kjella · · Score: 1

      I've found that there are two kinds of people that allow work and the rest of their lives to intermingle, and I can't stand either. (...) Me, I work hard for my 8 hours, and after that, you either pay me more, or I go and live my life. I emphasize that I work hard for 8 hours, if that isn't good enough for the boss, too bad, pay me more.

      Well if it's a choice between keeping a strict separation and a one-sided invasion of your personal life, then I'd do the same. But that is actually quite impractical for both of us, so if they're willing to be flexible then I'm willing to be flexible. Now I sure as hell don't work for free and I am keeping score, but it's not very important to me that those 8 hours are 9-5 and neither is it to the company really. The more I can have flexible hours, the more I can take time off or during business hours do deal with personal business, the easier I can convert long hours to extra holidays the more willing I am to work when they want me to as well. It's either that or they can pay me to be on call service, if not I'll drop off the face of the earth until start of next work day.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    10. Re:What a good little slave you are by Alomex · · Score: 0

      This was in England, from 2009 onwards.

      When it comes to workers right, England is not part of Europe. I'm not even sure they are part of the XXth century either, which is why the European Human Rights court spends so much time declaring their disgraceful caste system with all its consequences illegal.

    11. Re:What a good little slave you are by micahraleigh · · Score: 0

      I'll pass on Europe's unemployment numbers, economy, etc.

      The only masters there are the wealthy government class.

    12. Re:What a good little slave you are by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This isn't an American thing.

  44. Re:If you make more than minimum wage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    No, it most certainly is not. Salary negotiated by both parties is indeed enough compensation because you were involved in its negotiation. The number of hours per week you owe to your employer is part of your employment contract. Beyond that contract is not covered and therefore NOT COVERED. I am happy to go above and beyond for a company I enjoy working for, but my rights are my rights.

  45. Back in the Day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Enron used to keep their fax machines locked up to prevent "espionage". Of course, we all know why they did that.

  46. The Dumb Phone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Only works as a phone, not even a camera on it. Costs me $7 a month.

    It also lasts 4 days on a battery charge.

    The concept only worked from 1876 till....

  47. Depends on the ban. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Banning them from connecting to your network is completely reasonable. Banning them from being physically in the office is both unreasonable, and ridiculous. Pew did a study in aug 2011 that said 35% of adults have a smartphone. The numbers are obviously much higher in Jan 2013, and higher among office workers. Do you really think you stand a chance of banning anything that eventually everyone is going to have?

    If you try to ban smartphones, you'll lose eventually. The people in charge will just tell you were to stick it.

  48. What is it to them if it has internet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The internet access on the phone is paid for by the individual, the company doesn't have to pay for it, so why is it any business of the company that it has "unregulated internet access"?

    As long as the device isn't connected to an internal company PC in such a way as to make the phone a "wireless router" to allow the company's computer access the internet without the company firewall and protection, safeguarding THEIR equipment, its access is immaterial.

    If the company wants to make people buy a second phone for work, then maybe the company ought ot buy one for them, sim unlocked, so they can use it.

    1. Re:What is it to them if it has internet? by queazocotal · · Score: 1

      Because 6 out of the top 7 calculator apps have the required permissions to record audio, and ship it off to china on command.

  49. Opposite Problem by Moof123 · · Score: 1

    I have opposite problem. I left me cell as an emergency contact on my out of office reply, and now boss man keeps using it instead of either me desk phone, email, or the lab phone. I previously strictly only answeered calls from my wife (who knows only to call me for very important issues during the day), and had previously not read text until the end of the day. I've missed enough impromptu meeting he called via text message that I had to take that off of silent, which is very annoying for all the other texts that come in during the day. Several gentle "cease and desist" conversations have not gotten through. I am tempted to send him a bill to see if that gets through.

  50. The companies complained. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "What happened to giving them your work place number like you know, your parents did?"

    The companies complained about users "abusing" their kit by using the phone for personal reasons.

    Dilbert has several times illustrated this problem. Usually Alice (who has kids). The secretary is too powerful to be told off for this.

  51. That kind of managers... by gmuslera · · Score: 1

    ... usually is the kind that force users to have windows and to use outdated versions of internet explorer (because some specific internal app depending on it) and Outlook and enables internet browsing. Or not enable internet browsing for most employees, but surely he does it in his window pc, and/or enables non-it managers to do it, connected at the same time with the most critical networks of the company. And, of course, there is always the point to VPN/internal portals connections from his home or whatever access point that he finds outside, again, from his personal windows computer/pc/tablet. Extra points if connects with secure networks/protocols like vpns, https, or ssh, from unsafe computers, saying that anyway the communication is all encrypted.

    Cellphones are a threat, but a far less probable ones than all those scenarios so far. In fact, those managers are a bigger threat than cellphones.

  52. Advice from the field by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As a "mobility specialist" working on BYOD efforts... only one of the four major smart phone OSes was designed with enterprise usage in mind. Their security is crap. Their implementation of what security features they do offer is crap. Integration with existing laptop/desktop security systems is even worse.

    It costs more to implement BYOD (Bring-your-own-device) than it would cost to give each employee a smartphone (including data plans).

    The only reason people are seeing big pushes for BYOD acceptance is that it's being pushed top down from the executives in love with their "Executive Bling".

    If this was about the lower ranks, you'd see a lot more "just ban them all" approaches.

  53. Simple policy by mindcandy · · Score: 1

    No, if you are professional staff (meaning EXEMPT) you work until the job is done. There is no overtime.

    For those that say "if you want me to be on-call, you need to give me a toy" .. the policy is simple .. for this job, you must be reachable if you are on-call. We don't care HOW you are reachable, but you must be reachable.

  54. Banning? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What does that even mean?

    Banning any non-corporate device from connecting to any corporate network/device? Fine, that's pretty much what i expect from a serious company.

    Banning the personal usage of a private smartphone? Not gonna happen.

  55. If the concern is strictly for malware... by sabt-pestnu · · Score: 1

    I have only one question:

    Do they allow outside email to reach you?

    Actually, that goes for preservation of secret information, too.

    In either case, the greatest security concern is the meat they call the employee. Hardware is easy to secure by comparison.

  56. Occam wanna sell you a razor by luis_a_espinal · · Score: 3, Funny

    If you need to make a personal call that you do not want to/cant make from your desk line, go out to your car during lunch and make it.

    What do you recommend for people who use public transit instead of driving to work?

    Go outside and make the call? I mean, how many people are out there working in submarines, underground silos or a bunker in the middle of the Mojave Desert for whom the simplest, most general case solution is not applicable?

    1. Re:Occam wanna sell you a razor by Big+Hairy+Ian · · Score: 4, Funny

      You can get a mobile phone signal on a Submarine? I didn't even know they'd licensed the ULF Range :)

      --

      Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.

    2. Re:Occam wanna sell you a razor by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      So if you are banned from bringing the cellphone in, where do you keep it if you take public transit?

    3. Re:Occam wanna sell you a razor by cayenne8 · · Score: 2

      So if you are banned from bringing the cellphone in, where do you keep it if you take public transit?

      At the front desk with the guard/greeter for the building?

      I'm sure the company would happily set something up for people to check their phones in/out.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    4. Re:Occam wanna sell you a razor by h4rr4r · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That will be fun when one is stolen or misplaced. I am sure the company will love replacing them.

    5. Re:Occam wanna sell you a razor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Winter in much of the northern part of the US, not to mention our wonderful neighbors to the north. Put on a parka and boots to make a call? I don't think so.

    6. Re:Occam wanna sell you a razor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure most employers would be fine with you leaving it turned off at the front desk. If they are that crappy that you can't even do that, you really should find another job.

    7. Re:Occam wanna sell you a razor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The company I work for had (for a short time) a policy banning personal cell phones
      It has since been limited to our datacenters (where it makes sense to have such a policy), but at no time during the company-wide ban was there an option for Transit users to lock their phones in a secure place (even the main office assistant/greeters desk)
      I had asked for this type of bypass many times, falling each time on deaf ears; the act of bringing the phone in the building (even just to hand it to a security officer) was breach of policy.

      The companies that institute these kind of policies don't care about their employees, only the security.
      These are also the type of companies that for some reason think limiting your access to the tools you need to do your job will make for more productive employees.

    8. Re:Occam wanna sell you a razor by sjames · · Score: 1

      Go outside and make the call on what? The expensive phone you hid in the bushes when you got to work?

    9. Re:Occam wanna sell you a razor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If your employer doesn't want you to have your phone they should supply you with temporary lockers to store them in, mine does. Little 4"x4" lockers.

    10. Re:Occam wanna sell you a razor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They keep it at the gate or in a locker, which you access when you get out.

      Do you people ever fucking go outside?

    11. Re:Occam wanna sell you a razor by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Don't be so sure. There's tons of places where you're not allowed to bring in various personal items (backpacks, food, etc.), and they have security that even checks to make sure you're not bringing that stuff in. However, if you have it, they're not going to give you a place to store it while you're inside the building; it's either throw it in the trash or don't go in.

      You really expect employers to have enough consideration to give employees a place to check and store (securely) their personal belongings like smartphones? I think that's asking too much, at least in America.

    12. Re:Occam wanna sell you a razor by ericloewe · · Score: 2

      It's reasonable to ask management for lockers...

    13. Re:Occam wanna sell you a razor by LanMan04 · · Score: 2

      I'm sure the company would happily set something up for people to check their phones in/out.

      What, something that requires money AND accountability to run?

      LOL, doubtful they'd set that up voluntarily.

      --
      With the first link, the chain is forged.
    14. Re:Occam wanna sell you a razor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Security? Front Desk, Receptionist? take your pick. Or maybe a locker in a locker room. There are many solutions to this. if no locker then ask for a locker at the front to store personal stuff. or hide it in the drop ceiling of the bathroom on the 3rd floor, or bury it out front in the bushes in a lock box.

      I cant be the only one thinking this stuff up.

    15. Re:Occam wanna sell you a razor by hab136 · · Score: 1

      >It has since been limited to our datacenters (where it makes sense to have such a policy),

      It does? How are pics of racks of servers in any way sensitive?

    16. Re:Occam wanna sell you a razor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      keestered ......

    17. Re:Occam wanna sell you a razor by TENTH+SHOW+JAM · · Score: 1

      Have a series of small lockers in the lobby. Place phone in a locker. lock same. Take key with you. When business within building is complete, take key to locker, unlock same, remove phone, leave key.

      This works fine in secure areas I have worked in. (I still think there is a level of paranoia built into the article that is unfounded)

      --
      A sig is placed here
      To display how futile
      English Haiku is
    18. Re:Occam wanna sell you a razor by hobarrera · · Score: 1

      Don't be so sure. There's tons of places where you're not allowed to bring in various personal items (backpacks, food, etc.), and they have security that even checks to make sure you're not bringing that stuff in. However, if you have it, they're not going to give you a place to store it while you're inside the building; it's either throw it in the trash or don't go in.

      You really expect employers to have enough consideration to give employees a place to check and store (securely) their personal belongings like smartphones? I think that's asking too much, at least in America.

      I'm suprised how that sort of employers manage to keep employees around really. I'd be out the door in no time if they expect me to put up with that sort of crap.

    19. Re:Occam wanna sell you a razor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The location of some data centers is kept secret.

    20. Re:Occam wanna sell you a razor by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      But how prevalent is this really? I've actually never heard of such a ridiculous policy until I read it right here on Slashdot yesterday, and it's only one level down with one commenter saying their current employer has actually done this (the main article isn't even an article, it's an "ask slashdot" with someone proposing it).

      But I agree, I'm surprised that employer manages to keep any employees around. There must be more to the story: maybe they're in some rural-ish area where the employees are older and don't want to change jobs because it'll mean having to sell the house and move. This would never fly in a major metro area like Silicon Valley.

    21. Re:Occam wanna sell you a razor by Vlado · · Score: 1

      If companies have gun safes then lockers for personal devices that are much more pervasive will surely be made available.

    22. Re:Occam wanna sell you a razor by greenzrx · · Score: 1

      Pictures are not the only threat that this policy would seek to avoid. Would you allow people to bring a laptop into your datacenter? probably not.

    23. Re:Occam wanna sell you a razor by wallsg · · Score: 1

      You can get a mobile phone signal on a Submarine? I didn't even know they'd licensed the ULF Range :)

      You have to speak very slowly. It's really only suitable for Ents.

    24. Re:Occam wanna sell you a razor by nobaloney · · Score: 1

      Pictures are not the only threat that this policy would seek to avoid. Would you allow people to bring a laptop into your datacenter? probably not.

      I'm sure our situation is different from that of many others, but in fact we do allow it.

      We provide colocation services and many of our clients need to log into their servers from inside the datacenter, but outside our network. So we allow laptops and even supply wifi from both within and without our network. Sure we could provide multiple work stations but to use them effectively many of our clients would need to bring in data (for example passwords), and while you can do that on USB memory, that would multiple encryption/decryption methods on our workstations to handle the USB memory, and could in worst case situations encourage insecurity if clients opt to use easy-to-remember passwords or no encryption at all.

      We vet our clients as carefully as possible, we use locking cabinets, escorts, and video monitoring, and I'm not sure what you can with a laptop inside a datacenter that you can't do from your car parked outside, with suitable connectivity.

    25. Re:Occam wanna sell you a razor by hab136 · · Score: 1

      >Would you allow people to bring a laptop into your datacenter?

      First, "people" would be the employees authorized to work there, not the entire company and certainly not guests. These are your trusted administrators, not random idiots off the street.

      And yes, I've brought a laptop into a data center more than once to connect to a serial console, or to verify that some change I'm making is fixing the problem at the other end.

  57. Well, you could get a "dumb" phone by mikein08 · · Score: 1

    They're cheap. I've managed to live without a "smart" phone for a very long time. Yes, they have some nice features, but nothing I cannot live without. And yes, your employer is perfectly justified in banning personal electronics on company property or a company functions. He does, after all, pay your salary.

  58. Re:what about people in the feild who use them for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    all it takes is for some PHB to make a rule and so how it ends up hitting people who need a phone to do the there or let say some one who is in office and in field.

    And let's say it's use your own phone and we will give some cash to offset the voice + data cost.

  59. no news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Depending on the environment this is not really news. I have been politely but firmly asked to leave my not (very smart back then) phone with a camera at the gates of some places for at least 5 years. And it was not only places where people usually wear a uniform...

  60. What took them so long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If I were in charge of a site where sensitive data is being handled (i.e., any self-respecting business/government/military environment) then I would ban any external computing/storage device from the site. This is not even worth discussing.

  61. I envy your InfoSec team by endus · · Score: 1

    While completely banning smart phones altogether does seem a bit extreme, yes, the concerns are real and, yes, they are right to ban them.

    A more reasonable approach would be to have company issued smart phones which the company enables strict security policies on, but banning them works too if there is no business need for them. I do hope, however, that the rest of your security posture is ramped up to match this somewhat stringent measure, and it's not some one-off policy that some manager got a bug up his ass about...I suspect that's probably exactly what it is, though.

    BYOD and smart phones are rapidly becoming the bane of Infosec's existence. Companies are spending very significant amounts of money on MDM solutions to enable their employees to use whatever devices they like. If this is consistent with the company's culture and is affordable for them, that's fine. However, people push this privilege way too far. They insist on being able to use the latest and greatest tablet that just came out for their job. They want to use their iPad rather than a company issued laptop for work and will whine to upper management when they can't. Companies are not in business to give you an excuse to use your new toy, they're in business to make money and you need to comply with whatever policies they set.

    The first post where the guy talks about how the "burden of proof" is on the employer (!!) is the most asinine thing I have ever read. It's typical of the entitlement mentality that I see every day. If you don't like the company's policy on smart phones, go work somewhere else. The company can set whatever policies it likes for interaction with it's systems, and you can take your labor anywhere you like if you're not on board with those policies. The company is under no obligation to "prove" anything.

    At the end of the day, it's all about risk mitigation. Do smart phones pose a significant risk to the company? How big a risk? Are the benefits they provide worth spinning up an MDM solution? What policies need to be enabled to mitigate the risk? Are there other ways of mitigating the risk such as DLP? Do employees need remote access to their email? Do they need to be able to access the company wifi from their phone? Does every employee need this, or just some? These are the questions you have to ask.

    1. Re:I envy your InfoSec team by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      The Bane of BYOD is the fault of upper management and their scumbaggy ways. HONEST companies supply the employee with the tools they need. Scumbags try and scam the employee by having them use their own devices and cellphone plans.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    2. Re:I envy your InfoSec team by celle · · Score: 1

      "The company can set whatever policies it likes for interaction with it's systems, and you can take your labor anywhere you like if you're not on board with those policies. The company is under no obligation to "prove" anything."

            The employee is under no obligation to do anything outside the work he/she agreed to do, period. And the work obligation is contingent on getting paid. Beyond that my on/off life is none of the employers business, you'll never pay me that good. As for policies, how about building networks without gaping holes in them then such employee irritating policies wouldn't be needed. Oh ya, that would take work and cost slightly more money as opposed to the work reduction of irritated employees.

      rant
              If you use an id card and are dictated about how you live at work you've already reached the "papers please" for work life, next step government for your non-work life, then business and government merge. Nice knowing ya. /slight rant

  62. Its not malware, its called "analytics" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    back in the 90s we used to call it Spyware,
    now its been successfully re branded as "analytics" and there are hundreds of companies doing it because they know you have no way of stopping them.
    from Apple to Adobe Omniture to Flurry to AdMob to Mydas to Conduit, the list is endless.
    its a plague and everybody seems to be fine with letting their GPS location, address books etc be slurped up by these bottom feeders so why not your images ?

    i have deliberately avoided smart phones because the ecosystem and all its apps seem to be designed around getting as much of your personal info they can and selling it to anybody with a dollar, all apparently legal and acceptable to its users (its not hacking if you ask the user in a 10000 character eula).

    Stick a packet sniffer on your network and watch, its an orgy of http(s) requests to these silent/unknown companies who have nothing to do with the problem your "app" was supposed to solve.

    1. Re:Its not malware, its called "analytics" by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      "because they know you have no way of stopping them."

      I do. They get nothing from my home computers, and they get nothing form my phone or tablet Rooted Nexus 4 and nexus 7.. Both have blocking hosts files that eliminate all that crap. I also block all adverts to my devices. They want me to see adverts , they can pay my data bill.

      Smart people can stop them. They know that most people are not smart enough to take control of the devices they own.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  63. IT by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

    It's a good concept, my only question is, what is the point of IT then. You can isolate smart phones on to seperate wireless networks and then ultra scan those networks. However I agree that sometimes just blocking it can be the best answer.

  64. Why? by Lumpy · · Score: 1

    They wont ban using windows for the exact same reasons, so why would they ban smartphones?

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  65. Got layered security? by A+bsd+fool · · Score: 1

    Anyone with a WAP connected directly to a LAN deserves *exactly* what they will eventually get. External firewall, internal firewall, and the area between them (the DMZ) is where the WAP belongs, if it belongs on your network at all. Chances are, it does not.

    As someone who's worked for a defense contractor, wireless devices were not restricted when I worked there, because there was no on-site wireless access. Anything that had a camera or could act as external storage *was* restricted though. Check it in when you get to work, pick it up when you leave. This is not a bad policy for non-governmental entities either. Only the me me me generation thinks they have any legitimate need (or "right", *snort*) to have any personal devices of any sort with them when the are *at work*.

  66. Solved problem in computer science (and practice) by davecb · · Score: 1

    Various companies happily allow BYOD phones, and allow one to expense a proportion of one's bill to the company. A subset of them expect BYOD pads and laptops.

    In general, a company could permit almost any device if it provides "mandatory access controls", such as lockouts for the camera when in the office network, and encrypt-all-corporate-data using a company key. The general case was figured out circa 1985 (orange book) and encryption-as-MAC by the personal electronic health care records in the last few years.

    --
    davecb@spamcop.net
  67. BlackBerry - RIM thought of almost everything by ArhcAngel · · Score: 1

    It's funny how problems that companies are experiencing today were addressed by RIM YEARS ago. Funny Apple and Google chose to ignore this...unless of course they never intended to address the enterprise market.

    Don't want your employees playing games (or other time wasting activities) on their phones during working hours - There's a BES policy for that

    Need to ensure your office is shutterbug free - There's a BES policy for that

    Need a way to allow your employees to have personal information and work information on the same device but kept separate - There's a BES policy for that

    I'm sorry but having to have your camera physically removed/disabled is ludicrous in this day and age. Even having to go to the local carrier to have a block installed is borderline insanity. BYOD is going to bring some enterprise to its knees and there will be outcries that something must be done to protect sensitive data. Companies are already lining up to provide solutions to problems created by iOS and Android not addressing security up front.

    MY answer to the question is - Does your job benefit from you having a smart device with you? If yes then they need to provide it pre-configured to best serve their needs or reimburse you for bringing your own device. If you are just bringing a personal device for personal use then they have the right to restrict its use while on their time and property. Years ago I was studying for my EE degree. I had a job working for Compaq on their assembly line. I was not allowed to have my books at my station even though there was an area under the station for personal items. I had planned to study during breaks but was informed that would not be allowed. It was their right. It was my right to quit so I did after about a week when I had found another job.

    --
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
  68. It's called an addiction by SuperCharlie · · Score: 1

    Smart/Cell phones have become an addiction. Pure and simple. Just the thought of leaving it at home or maybe your plan expiring sends people into a DT OMG nothing else matters till I get this thing back frenzy. A couple years ago I was there. I recognized the signs of addiction. I made the choice to put it down and walk away. Yes I have a piece of crap that we take on trips and whatnot..but the vast majority of the time I live untethered. I have to admit the first couple weeks without it in my pocket was pretty difficult. But after a while the sense of being free from the nonstop barrage of texts and calls and not to mention the surveillance..just the freedom of not being tied to the damn thing was worth the pain of separation. But..but.. I can turn it off any time I need to... yea.. sure you can..sure you can. This story isn't about security.. it's about how can I keep my addiction.

  69. Virtualize and restrict by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    VMware is piloting a software solution to allow you your public smartphone identity for outside the workspace, couples with a company-controlled VM on the phone, which will be authorized to access company resources. The VM can be deleted by administrators and updated as necessary. It functions a two-factor authentication, and role-based SaaS. I see it as having potential in this area.

  70. Re:what about people in the feild who use them for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The people in the field would use a company-issued or a company-sanctioned and locked down phone. Again, the story was about personal phones within their in-building workspace.

  71. The most dangerous to security... by ameline · · Score: 1

    The most dangerous thing to security is a disgruntled employee.

    If your regulations increase the likelihood of annoying your employees, they are actively counter-productive to security.

    --
    Ian Ameline
  72. Re:If you make more than minimum wage by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

    The fuck it is.
    You get X hours for Y dollars. You want more you pay more. That is it. If I had a manager that tried that BS with me, I would be sure to take full advantage of all my breaks, work only to the clock and any on call or after hours would of course be done in such a way to only barely meet the requirements and time limits. Sure I could be paged at 4am but since I have a 4 hour window I will go back to bed until 8am and do it then.

    That shit cuts both ways.

  73. That sounds completely dickish, but let's assume.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    ...that you were trying to be informative.

    >If not having your pacifier with you at all times makes you that uncomfortable, find a different job

    Not sure why the pacifier jab was necessary, but the logic is valid, if you don't like the restrictions of an employer find a different job, and let evolution punish the employers as shortsighted as your post. I'm all for a Libertarian approach to the problem and would never advocate any legal guarantees in this regard.

    However, I actually have people skills, and talented managers never make arbitrary employee impacting decisions in a unilateral fashion. It's not that they aren't as entitled as your post suggests, simply that they know this is a losing game.

    If you work with classified documents, or as a life guard at public pool, there can be legitimate reasons an employer wants your phone stowed. But in the vast majority of workplaces, there is no business reason and taking peolpe's connectivity away is just a cop-out for lack of manager interest "managing" employees.

    My director sets goals for me, reasonable, achievable, business aligned goals with timelines. I get them done and more, year after year, which is why, when I want my phone on my desk and to take a 10 minute break to reply to some indignant teenager on /. I can take that time.

  74. Zzzzzzzz by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ols school thinking for last century corporations.... let them wither and die.

  75. I Advise On Security Policies Like This by xdroop · · Score: 2

    Part of my job is to advise companies on security policies like this, and I have advised in favor of such restrictions when asked. However this is done out of respect for the end-user's privacy. The reasoning is that there are two conflicting priorities in permitting BYOD use and network access:

    First, as a security officer I have a duty to ensure that the network and all devices connected to it remain secure.

    Second, as an agent of the company I have absolutely no right to dictate to an employee what they must or must not do with their device to prove that it is secure. It is their device which they purchased with their money to use for their own purposes.

    Since I cannot prove that the device is secure without violating their privacy or exerting an unreasonable amount of control over the device, the only resolution is that the device is not permitted.

    If you really need a device, then the resolution to that is to get the company to buy you a device -- at which point the company owns it, and can dictate what security measures are taken.

    At the end of the day, a company pays you to do a job, and as such has the final say over how you do it and what tools you use to do it. It may not be your choice, or the best choice, or even an efficient choice. But that's how they want it done.

    Good employers will listen to their staff and make adjustments and get the tools that their staff need. But it isn't mandatory.

    If you don't like the job, and the employer won't change it to suit you, you have two choices: live with it, or leave.

    --
    you should read everything on the internet as if it had "but I'm probably talking out of my ass" appended to it.
    1. Re:I Advise On Security Policies Like This by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh I wish I had such a caring network administrator like you.... Not.

      Most firms, even big banks have second wifi networks for employees byod... sandboxed with a different set of rules.

      But thanks for caring about my privacy.

  76. Wrong, wrong, wrong. by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

    The burden of proof is on the employer to show that no other mitigating measure can address the risks. Summarily banning child protecting, emergency-aleviating technology, not to mention the tools with which we coordinate the rest of our lives, is truly bad form and will bite the employer more often than they know.

    That is just wrong. The employer has no burden of proof to show why you cannot use a personal electronic device (phone or otherwise) while at WORK. It is not some god given right to have/use a smartphone. Can it be useful, sure, but you as the employee have a burden of proof to show why you need to use such a device.

    For the list of reasons given in the summary:

    This current reality is that people have started to rely on having their smartphones with them at all times for things such as receiving emergency calls from day cares and schools, making personal calls during normal working hours (i.e. to make doctor's appointments), accessing password managers, and scheduling calendar events."

    If it is a true emergency or sick child, most employers understand that and allow those calls to come in on a regular work phone line. Making personal calls during normal working hours, sorry, most employers expect that to occur on your time, not their time, so it doesn't matter what phone you use. Accessing password managers, you don't mean to tell your employer that if somebody stole your cell phone that they would have access to everything on the company computers that you have access, do you? Scheduling and calendar events, that would be the only legitimate work related use in the list that is work related, but would be strongly tied to the nature of one's job - if you are expected to be at your desk 9 to 5, then having your schedule on your phone is not a real advantage. OTOH, if you travel a lot for your job, then it is. Another related work use, although not mentioned, would be that it allows your boss or clients and customers to get in touch with you on site or off site. Another, might be that it enables you to use job related apps when out of the office that feed back to work done in the office, etc (for instance an insurance adjuster might fill out claims reports with pictures on a smartphone or tablet instead of by paper).

    Of course, if you are successful in convincing your employer that having a smartphone would enhance your work performance, you should also be prepared for possibility that you end up with an employer provided smartphone that can only be used for work related tasks and you still cannot use your personal one at work.

    Just because we live in an age where we have all of these devices that can do all of these different things doesn't change the basic dynamic that employers set the rules for employees. The employee's recourse, if they don't like the rules, is to find a different employer. Plain and simple.

  77. Re:There are solutions, and the users would compla by HereIAmJH · · Score: 1

    It is not trivial but it is also not magic.

    How is it not trivial. You don't allow them to connect personal devices to the company network. If you feel you need to provide WiFi, then set up a guest network and you use the same access controls for company assets that you have for someone connecting via the Internet.

    --
    Another day, another update to a Google android app.
  78. Of course they should ban them. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1- With smartphones becoming infected with viruses/malware/trojans and so on why would you risk having the majority of your workforce coming to work and possibly infecting company equipment? Is it really worth the risk of infecting your office network and threatening the security of your company to let someone bring a s3 to work? The answer is no it isnt. All it would take is one retard with an infected phone to get on the companies wifi or plug it straight into their computer or something else to ruin a companys security and waste a lot of time and energy all the while potentially exposing the network to attacks and expose their private files.

    2- Why do employees need a smartphone at work? The answer is they dont. I always wondered how many thousands of hours of work are lost to companies each year because of smartphones. Employees can get on the internet, play games, send texts, watch videos, make phone calls, check their email and so on while at work in realitive privacy under their desk in their lap, in the bathroom and so on. Companies lose a lot of productivity each year because employees are playing with smart phones when they are supposed to be working. You go to work to work, you get paid to work. I dont think its unreasonable for a employer to want to ban smartphones among employees to ensure that the employees are doing what they are being paid to do. Some might argue they need it incase someone needs to get in touch with them, well if someone needs you they can call your work phone or have someone transfer them to you just like they have been doing for decades before cell phones. Well all got along just fine for centuries at work with no smart phone, the idea that we all suddenly have to have them with us everywhere we go is absurd.

    3- Companies probablly collectively lose millions a year to smart phones. If you totalled all the people across the country who charge their phones at work I bet it would add up to millions in electric bills. Sure charging a smartphone doesnt cost very much at all, just pennies per phone. But when you figured thousands and thousands of people are charging their phones at work every, everyday that really adds up over time, it adds up to money the employers have to pay out of their own pockets.

    You have no right to bring a phone to work. Youre on the companies grounds, on their time, being paid by them to do your job. If they dont want you bringing one you have no right to complain at all because during your work hours you get paid by them to work for the company to do what they want you to. Thats as stupid as saying "Well I have a right to bring my couch, tv, coffee pot and microwave from home because I work while I watch tv, sit on the couch and drink coffee". You can go without a smart phone for a few hours a day when youre working, its not that hard.

    1. Re:Of course they should ban them. by mark-t · · Score: 1

      1. Not an issue if a company doesn't give out its wifi password to employees. Simply being in the same room with a malware infected device is only a security risk if the device is permitted to connect to yours in the first place.

      2. You might not need a smartphone at work. But you might need it during your lunch break.... or possibly even on your way to or from work, so it's not viable to leave it at home. Oh, and if you don't happen to drive to work, you can't exactly even leave it in your car either (not to mention the fact that leaving valuables unattended in your car can be an extremely risky thing to do anyways, since regular insurance doesn't typically cover property theft from cars).

      And a company has no right to tell an employee what they can do when they aren't on the clock. Since ordinarily, travel to and from work and lunch breaks are on the employee's own time, so there's no reason that an employer can demand an employee leave their cell phone at home.

  79. Evolution of OS by edis · · Score: 1

    It often returns to my mind lately, that we hardly ever before had that widespread operating systems and applications with that much of connectivity and environment capturing potential, we would be so poorly in control of. There is shift, we are not even properly aware of yet. This was confirmed with some report, seen just several days ago, mentioning malware in smartphones being present on close to half of units. Thus, discussed employers are doing their stuff pretty right.

    --
    Servant of karma
  80. Okay by DaMattster · · Score: 1

    Then I just won't work for an employer that bans the use of smartphones. I can understand not allowing personal devices to connect to a corporate desktop. As long as the device is never attached to a corporate network, then there is no cause to ban this. Sounds to me like employers are concerned that smartphones are cutting into productivity but it is easier to pass HR muster if you call it a "security threat."

  81. Of course by gnu-sucks · · Score: 1

    If you operate around "sensitive" information or devices (such as prototypes, private development ideas, etc), then absolutely, ban cameras and smart phones. Or perhaps all cell phones. To compensate, issue one-way pagers to each employee and install basic desk phones into each office where personal calls are permitted.

    If you need to document something with a photo, use the company-provided digital camera in accordance with corporate policy. Need to access the internet? Use your company's computers.

    So-called "smart phones" are definitely a liability. The only reason you would allow them is if you aren't working around sensitive IP.

  82. Ban Paper, pens, pencils too by jsepeta · · Score: 1

    Since sensitive information can be carried out of an organization written or printed on paper, we should also ban paper, pens, crayons, markers, and eyeliner.

    --
    Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
  83. Re:If you make more than minimum wage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The fuck it is.
    You get X hours for Y dollars.

    real jobs go like this:
    you get X work done for Y dollars.

    X = what they hire you to do.

    If you can do X in 5 hours than they are overpaying you, nice one!
    If you can't do X unless you spend 70 hours then you took the wrong damn job.

  84. Re:If you make more than minimum wage by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

    Not sure what you mean by real jobs.
    In my profession often the amount of work to be done is not predictable in that sort of way.

  85. And miss out on the free labor? by conspirator23 · · Score: 1

    Q: Why would any enterprise allow/sanction/encourage the use of mobile devices in their workspace? Why would they add a Blackberry Enterprise Server or an ActiveSync connection and allow their staff to pull down corporate messaging onto their personal devices? Don't they understand about the security risks and the administrative/support overhead of bridging the gap betwen company equipment and personal equipment?

    A: Silly rabbit. These technologies push the executive mindset of being permanently at work down the management chain and into the front line staff. Employees "steal" 5 minutes away from work to check their bank balance etc. only to lose 10 back responding to "urgent" emails or chasing arbitrary deadlines that can only be met by working after hours. Extending the enterprise into employee's mobile devices is effectively a rollback of decades of labor law that today's workers accept willingly. Remember kids: Stay in "non-exempt" job positions as long as possible!

  86. Re:If you make more than minimum wage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm not sure what you mean by prediction? Like you don't know how long something will take you until you attempt it?
    I've only run into that once when I was doing quality control work. On one project I fucked up and gave myself two weeks to do what turned out to be four weeks worth of work and I had to work "late" and on the weekends. I didn't charge my boss anything extra since I had agreed to the terms beforehand. I said I could finish it in two weeks and I couldn't. That wasn't the owner's fault.

    By "real job" I meant one that isn't "I am scheduled until 5 so at 4:59 and 59 seconds I stop working and leave"...more a job that is a list of responsibilities and you take care of them as you see fit.

  87. Re:Solved problem in computer science (and practic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "mandatory access controls" on personally owned devices don't go over so well.

  88. Re:If you make more than minimum wage by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

    No more like you don't know what you will be doing today, because you have hundreds of servers and anything could break or be screwed up by someone. Even when you find the problem, it might not have a known cause and you will have to try to find that. It gets fixed when it gets fixed. Sometimes that means staying late, sometimes it means some dev machine is not usable for a couple days. If you want more than that I would want more money since that was not the deal I agreed to when I was hired.

    My job meets that definition of a real job.

  89. Re:If you make more than minimum wage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fuck no it's not. I get a higher salary for other reasons, and my work is managed by a contract. If it's not in the contract, it doesn't fucking happen. I'm not a charity.

  90. FLSA-exempt employees by tepples · · Score: 1

    You get X hours for Y dollars. You want more you pay more.

    That's the arrangement that I have with my boss: any work while clocked out is recorded on my time sheet the next day. It's just that in the United States, the Fair Labor Standards Act makes certain salaried employees in managerial, engineering, and marketing positions exempt from its overtime provisions. I was under the impression that a lot of Slashdot users were in exempt engineering positions.

    1. Re:FLSA-exempt employees by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Yes, and I am exempt. That does not mean I work for free. That means you get some hours and I get some back later. Like when I want to make private calls while at work.

    2. Re:FLSA-exempt employees by swalve · · Score: 1

      Exempt just means they aren't forced to pay overtime. They aren't prevented from paying it.

  91. FTFY, they are out to get me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is work, not school. I can keep my "gun unloaded" or even in my briefcase if my employer feels its necessary, but I can't think of any reason that I should not be allowed to bring it onto premises at all other than unhealthy paranoia.

    1. Re:FTFY, they are out to get me by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Guns are weapons. There is already some regulation on hidden weapons that is completely independent of the workplace.

      There are no laws forbidding you from simply having a cell phone stored away where nobody can see it.

      If there were, your analogy might make a lot more sense.

  92. Re:If you make more than minimum wage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you want more than that I would want more money since that was not the deal I agreed to when I was hired.

    Ah okay. You seemed to be of the attitude "If you want me to work longer than the standard work day, you give me more money"(X hours for Y dollars)
    I fully support "If you want me to do more than I originally signed up for, you give me more money."

  93. I disgress by drolli · · Score: 1

    a) IMHO the main danger is not the camera, but the microphone.

    b) No, in my experience there is no way to educate users against stupidity.

    c) The dangerous question is: can i use the password manager on a private phone to remember the password to my PC in the office? (yes - you can; i would even assume some peiople sysnc the note unecrypted into the cloud)

    So is forbidding smartphones the right way? No, for some reasons:

    a) it is nearly impossible to control - unless you make random searches

    b) it places you in the responsibility to provide a safe storage for the phones

    c) even simple phones have note functions and microphones. the last phone i had without a capability to access the microphone by software must have been around 2002.

    So what to do:

    a) dont use passwords alone for log-ins, but two-factor authentication

    b) structure you infromation infrastructure in a way in which everybody has access to what he needs

    c) Teach people to leave their smartphone turned off and in the locker of their desk in really confidential discussions or presentations

  94. Both devices have to support CSIM by tepples · · Score: 1

    Verizon uses A combination CSIM/USIM on all 4G LTE phones, meaning most 2011 and newer Verizon smartphones are able to perform a SIM swap scenario.

    But can these combination CSIM/USIM cards be swapped into Verizon dumbphones, such as the dumbphone that one would have to carry in a smartphone-free zone? Even if one device supports CSIM, the other has to as well, or the device portability of subscriber identity fails.

  95. Re:Solved problem in computer science by davecb · · Score: 1

    They are a danger when you allow others to set controls on things you care about. The obvious example is UEFI boot, which is fine if you use it to select who can boot, and bad when Microsoft is making the decision about your device.

    In the context of BYOD, I will happily grant MAC access over the camera and gps to an employer when I'm on their network, but they need to publicly agree with me on what they're doing. I and many other people will likely grant an employer the right to encrypt the company's files, so long as they agree not to encrypt or delete mine on the same device.

    The asymmetry of power poses a risk even in the acceptable cases, so arguably one should only use mac-implementing programs from a trusted third party, like a Google or Apple.

    --
    davecb@spamcop.net
  96. Human factor by ToAruShiroiNeko · · Score: 1

    I feel that these are feel good "solutions" that do not resolve anything. If the intent is spying on a company or organization such precautions would be greatly ineffective. For instance, even if you ban cameras the paid spy would probably bring something less suspicious such as a pen or button that contains a secret camera. Malware such as Stuxnet/DuQu/Flame (as well as many others) have proven to avoid detection for extended periods of time. Mind that these Malware have infected the actual work terminals themselves network-wide even through USB flash disks. Also mind that we only hear about espionage attempts that have failed to remain secret for one reason or another and perhaps many successful cases will forever remain a secret. One solution would be the elimination of computers entirely at a significant cost of productivity (and paper tends to be taken away from the office).

  97. multiple issues here by Sprouticus · · Score: 1

    People are reading this and applying the ban to multiple problems

    1) Productivity. As someone pointed out, if it is a real 9-5 job, hourly, then the company can and should ban use during work hours (regardless if it is on a wifi conneciton on the ocmpany network). If you are exempt, and work as needed, including off hours, it should not be an issue.

    2) Physical Security: Most phones can act as a usb thumb drive, so any company that feels the need to restrict thumb drives should also block those (again, assuming no wifi) on company machines. If you are not allowed to bring a USB drive in on your keychain, you should not be able to bring a phone.

    3) Network security: This is the real issue, having the device on your network. There is a very easy fix for this. Use a certificate based wifi system with a hidden SSID for company machines. For non company machines (phones, laptops, tablets, etc), create a guest network using a password based crypto and transmit the SSID. Then isolate the guest VLAN. This allows phones and such to be on the WiFi network, adds convenience and minimize risk for company assets. The cost is minimal for most companies to maintain a standard guest network across all sites, and employees find it valuable. (CxO's in particular)

  98. You actually asked that? by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

    Is there a way to educate employees about preventing this sort of thing

    After 20+ years of computer viruses, you are going to ask that question? If that were possible, there wouldn't be a problem with computer viruses because people would practice safe computing.

    For an even better example, look at personal data loss. After decades of "Back your shit up", as I type this there is someone in the process of screaming "Noooo!" as their personal data disappears into the bit bucket because he had a catastrophic failure and had no backups.

    --
    There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
  99. Re:If you make more than minimum wage by LanMan04 · · Score: 1

    The number of hours per week you owe to your employer is part of your employment contract.

    BZZT. I'm salaried. I have no set number of work hours other than "full time". If I get my projects done on-time, I fully expect to do whatever I want with the remaining time.

    --
    With the first link, the chain is forged.
  100. Disagree by bradley13 · · Score: 1

    You seem to be confusing "allowing work and private life to intermingle" with having no private life. Sure, there are people who just can't stop working - that's not what the GP is talking about.

    I worked a few hours on New Year's Day, because something needed done. However, tomorrow morning (Tuesday) I will be taking off to deal with some private stuff. I read private email at work; check work email at home. Work tends to come in clumps - the second half of 2011 I worked 60 hours every bloody week; this Winter and Spring I will finally be able to compensate, and expect to average 30 hours or less. My employer only cares that my job gets done (and done well); they don't care a whole lot about exactly how and when the work happens. This offers flexibility, which is pleasant. Everybody wins.

    Maybe this is a European thing?

    --
    Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
  101. Re:Start with iphone users first by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    First they came for the iPhone users, but I said nothing because I do not own an iPhone. Then we noticed how much more productive it was. And it was good.

  102. You'd have to be pretty paranoid by Kjella · · Score: 1

    A lot of companies have a policy that no employee device will ever touch the internal network. I currently have two phones, one work phone and one personal phone due to all the rules and restrictions on the work phone. But to physically ban me from having my other phone on the premises because someone could hack my phone and capture the camera/audio would take it to an entirely different level. You don't put together an Ocean Eleven team to rob a gas station, neither do you do hack an employee's cell phone for a few SSNs. Yes, if you really think you could be the potential victim of advanced industrial espionage and not just a former employee taking everything with him out the door - a far more likely scenario - then sure. But I'm guessing the few who really have reason to fear this already know.

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  103. We've had our company supplied ones taken away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Starting this year the company supplied mobile phones (ranging from very dumb and old to iPhone 5) were taken away in an effort to save money. If you want to use one you can, but you have to buy it, pay for the plan, allow the company to put encryption and remote wiping software on it.

  104. I am reachable by... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...US Mail. On Sundays you can send a courier. There you go, I am reachable.

  105. I hope.... by gatfirls · · Score: 1

    ...your first "Advice On Security Policies Like This" is: "If a smartphone is a real security risk, you have a lot bigger concerns, security wise, than smartphones." (and, yes I am aware that in fringe scenarios a phone is a very real risk because of cameras and recording devices.) A policy that says "don't connect your phone to the computer/etc" is just as effective unless you are going to search employees and get the backscatter xray out.

  106. A Revelation by r33per · · Score: 1

    I didn't realise that the only personal call one can make is to the reception of one's GP...

  107. Fuck'em by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When the pull that shit I will take as much raw proprietary data as I can take and dump it online in several places.

    It won't cure the stupids but I'll let them know it's an inside job and that it's in retaliation for their idiocy.

    That should heat up the us vs them mentality and create a hideous work environment which will help drive quality people away and keep the cretins.

    This is of course a public service. Such companies need bled white then converted to biodiesel.

  108. Good grief. by clay_buster · · Score: 1

    And when your child dies of aniphylactic shock because the school could not reach you on your listed emergency number and the company IP based phone system was down, then you can sue that company for everything they have or ever will have.

    It is an illegal policy (reckless child endangerment) - nail em for it.

    Sure and I'm in a shielded building. Can I sue them because there is no decent cell coverage at my desk? We really can't be this lame :-(

  109. Call me a fascist, but yes, I would. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Absolutely! Not even for a security issue, but people have lost so much productivity due to smartphones. DOn't try to tell me you are more productive and then give me reasons (and certainly not a link to your pintrest of how it makes you a better worker). I would bet bathroom breaks have increased dramatically due to facebooking in the stalls, and I for one, were I given the power, would outright ban them at my shop. Period. Use them on break, but do not bring one into the shop. And this is just for mechanics, let alone people( lets be honest: Nerds) who are even more tethered to their devices.

  110. No bus service on Sundays by tepples · · Score: 1

    It's hard to get to and from church when the city bus system does not operate on Sundays, as is the case in Fort Wayne, Indiana.

  111. No car in which to store the phone by tepples · · Score: 1

    How did this comment get rated insightful?

    Probably because moderators realized the implication that the phone should be stored in a locked car, but people who don't commute in a car don't have a car in which to store the phone.

  112. Running into a pair of JWs at a bus stop by tepples · · Score: 1

    either you have to ride with the less than desirables

    Some U.S. subcultures would see that as a plus. Members of certain religions, for instance, use time on the bus as a chance to witness to people.

    saving some gas money?

    That and a car payment and car insurance.

  113. Pure BS. by Cammi · · Score: 1

    If this restriction is made known before offering the job (say, during the recruitment stage), then this should be a no-brainer. However, if the employer is dumb enough to add this restriction AFTER you were higher... they can go to hell.

  114. Really? by Greyfox · · Score: 1

    I'd bring that up at the next union meet...oh. Right...

    --

    I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

  115. Who cares? by Vrtigo1 · · Score: 1

    At least OP sort of asked the right question, i.e. "how reasonable is this?" instead of flying off the handle insisting that his rights are being violated. At the end of the day it comes down to this...yes there are other practical solutions such as removing device cameras, MDM software, etc but those all have associated costs and require the company to pay someone to spend time enforcing the rules and verifying that your camera is in fact disabled, or you are indeed running the prescribed MDM software. Banning smartphones has no such associated cost. Sure, perhaps you could argue that no smartphones means lower productivity (it sure would for me, and a lot of folks I work with), but at the end of the day this is one of the things that makes America great. if I hire somebody to work for me and I say they can't bring their smartphone to work, then they can't bring their smartphone to work. If they do, then they can find somewhere else to work. Being the guy that signs the paychecks means you get to make the rules from 9-5.

  116. Unrelated but interesting by Vrtigo1 · · Score: 1

    I am the IT ops director for a small company (100 employees). About 75 of our employees have company smartphones (iphones). Cellphones fall under my purview so I am the one that people come to for ordering phones, setting up e-mail on phones, etc. The company pays for these devices and the associated wireless service and we recently implemented MDM software. You would not believe how many employees made such a stink about having MDM software loaded that gave us the ability to restrict what apps they download (we ban zynga and other games that can steal information, etc). I could understand if this was a BYOD deployment where folks were loading MDM software on their personal devices and they were bummed that meant they had to uninstall their games, but we're talking about corporate owned equipment, and the users feel that they are somehow entitled to ultimate control and privacy on those devices.

    But then again, these are the same folks that want to port their personal number in (which we generously allow them to do for convenience of carrying a single device) and want the company to pay their ETF when their personal carrier charges them one. Excuse me? Why should the company pay to get you out of your contract so you can have the privilege of bringing your personal number to your work phone? You don't want to pay? Fine, use the number we issue you, problem solved.

    Sorry, rant over.

  117. Even fast food restaurants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    .. ban usage of cellphones during work hours.

  118. Most companies already ban Android by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But it is mostly because of Androids well documented built-in spyware ... and because most Android users are uneducated idiots.

  119. You are confusing ignorant idiots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    with smart and talented. Smart and talented people will actually understand security. College kids who think that they are "skilled" (when they are not) will not.

  120. Yep .... and they didn't allow cellphones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and use old style dumb phones to communicate across the ship.

  121. So you think wi-fi is the only way to transfer .. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    .. malware?? I guess you never heard about infections via USB.

    And malware is not the only issue. Video/audio recordings, images pictures and "sensor" key loggers are security issues too.

  122. The solution is simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Quit this job. Tell them why you are quitting - then go somewhere that you can live the way that you want. When companies cannot get the type of people they need to accomplish the tasks they have to accomplish, they will change their way of doing things.

  123. if the government wants to 3d model my crotch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    they are welcome. My smart phone spends most of its time in my pocket.

  124. Moral hazard. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    About half of humanity can't find their dick.

    ...less than half, in third world Asia (China, India, Korea, et al). You see, the problem is that we shared advanced medical technologies with them. One such example is ultrasound, which they then proceeded to use to allow them to selectively abort their female babies.

    Really makes you wonder if the Prime Directive from Star Trek might be the best policy when dealing with these cultures.

  125. Re:If you make more than minimum wage by Nofsck+Ingcloo · · Score: 1

    Ya forgot the rule: don't feed the troll.

  126. Concern is Likely to become non-issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Notice that the article said that the malware needed to be installed with an app. Most smartphones run programs in a sandbox. While it's not impossible to put an unknown VIRUS on them, it's very hard to do so. This means that any programs which do this, are likely to be part of another app. While android smartphones are somewhat more susceptable to malware type solutions because of the ability to install software from untrusted sources, depending on a reputable store (like the Apple store, Microsoft store, or even some of the larger android stores) are more likely to limit the impact of these apps because the owner of the store can (and I know in the case of Apple HAS) removed programs once the threat is discovered.

    There is an opportunity here for app stores to take a more active roll in uncovering these types of programs and, perhaps, some better handling of access to the camera (maybe prompting the smartphone user to "grant" access to the camera) would help mitigate issues even further. Understand also that the government has successfully had programs that listen to keyboard clicks to determine what someone is typing, but this is not exactly something that is feasible in the mainstream. I think most companies, unless maybe there are sensitive parts of the military or government, would be fine.

  127. LANDesk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I used to work for LANDesk, but I don't anymore. But they are sure working on making IT departments able to handle many devices.

    http://www.landesk.com/products/mobility-manager.aspx

    I guess since I don't work there anymore, this isn't a conflict of interest for me to provide this answer.

  128. Not where my oil came from by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The notion of oil coming from dinosaurs is quaint, and ridiculous. The more vegan-friendly answer is: plants.

  129. Due to concerns ... by RockDoctor · · Score: 1
    ... that mobile phones of any type contain radio transmitters, which have not as a design been tested and certified as safe to use with the detonators and explosives systems that are also regularly used at our sites, many employers in my business decline to allow people to come onto their sites with a smartphone, ham radio, or any other sort of radio transmitter. That's been the case for nearly 20 years now (the bans on ham radio and other unapproved radios are considerable older).

    This isn't made any more difficult by there typically being no cellphone tower within several hundred miles of the locations. So the only use of smartphones is as alarm clocks, phone books and pocket computers. Some employers allow them out, as long as they're kept inside the Faraday cages which the office spaces and accommodation spaces constitute.

    Can't live without your mobile ... get a different job.

    (Incidentally, the ability to receive an emergency call isn't going to get you home in less than several days. Live with it ; if you can't live with it, go work in a different business.)

    --
    Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"