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EV Owner Arrested Over 5 Cents Worth of Electricity From School's Outlet
sl4shd0rk writes "It seems you can be arrested in Georgia for drawing 5 cents of electricity from a school's outdoor receptacle. Kaveh Kamooneh was charged with theft for plugging his Nissan Leaf into a Chamblee Middle School 110V outlet; the same outlet one could use to charge a laptop or cellphone. The Leaf draws 1KW/hour while charging which works out to under $0.10 of electricity per hour. Mr Kamooneh charged his Leaf for less than 30 minutes, which works out to about a nickel. Sgt. Ernesto Ford, the arresting officer, pointed out, 'theft is a theft,' which was his argument for arresting Mr. Kamooneh. Considering the cost of the infraction, it does not seem a reasonable decision when considering how much this will cost the state in legal funds. Does this mean anyone charging a laptop or cell phone will be charged with theft as well?"
He's obviously in the pocket of Big Oil.
You save only 59 seconds over 8 miles by going 75 instead of 65. Do you really have to pass that guy? Do the Math!
In most states, Theft under $5 is just a ticket... Theft under 5 cents is a PR nightmare. :)
from Ars:
"A short time later, he noticed someone in his car and went to investigate—and found that the man was a Chamblee police officer. "
So, cops just randomly enter other people's cars? I know I used to always lock mine if I wasn't in it.
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
I didn't know a Leaf can use regular 110V using standard outlet.
Stealing is stealing. Was it his? Was there a sign saying come use our free power? Is it ok for me to walk up to your house and plug in my car or device to an outside outlet? I am not sure the guy needed to be arrested, a ticket and fine would be in order. BUT it's only a nickel... Yea... Tell that to the store when you steal 5 cents worth of candy, not that any candy is 5 cents anymore... But my point stands.
I'm getting pretty tired of seeing extension cords snaking through parking lots and parking garages.
I don't think the issue here is just five cents; some places can't handle the capacity this puts on their systems or wiring, or perhaps they don't want the liability of you screwing up your car thanks to faulty wiring, and suing you for it. And hell, what if some bright person uses a cord that's too light of a gauge for the current, and ends up starting a fire or hurting someone?
Charging should be done where appropriate, not wherever anyone wants.
He has virtually zero risk in such an arrest.
He enhances his standing, knows he'll get a conviction and won't face a drunken driver or armed robber. Easy hit for his weekly arrest and ticket actions.
I bet if the "suspect" was named "John Smith" and white he might not have been arrested.
I'm surprised that didn't make it into the summary.
I suspect it is about establishing precedent and combating the idea that EV owners are entitled to "free" power, not about recovering costs in this specific incident.
If he filled up his thermos with water from the bathroom sink, would that be theft as well?
...but it's being eaten...by some...Linux or something...
Does this mean anyone charging a laptop or cell phone will be charged with theft as well?
Yes, they certainly will.
There is a type of resistance to authority, whose name escapes me at the moment, in which the person protesting follows every rule down to the most mundane detail as a way to stop productivity. It's hard to punish people for because they aren't actually breaking any rules, they're following ALL of them. Maybe the cop was protesting against the massively defective legal system by being this pedantic?
Nah, he was probably just taking out his frustration on one of them tree huggers. But a man can dream.
kW/hour is ... how you get billed
A kilowatt load on a circuit while not unusual is also non trivial. It's plausibly increase the risk of fire in an old wire system particularly one exposed to the outdoor elements. And it's enough to trip a breaker if some other kilowatt load is present. Further this assumes the car itself is working properly. Finally the car owner could be electrocuted or electrocute someone else if the outlet or car is mid misconfugured, exposing the school to risk.
So he was wrong not to ask permission . The nickel is the least of the problens
But there should be a certain amount of common sense when enforcing the law. First did the school complain? If the school did not complain, did the officer ask the school if there was an issue? If there was an issue, I am sure the officer or the school could have approached the man and asked him to stop using their plug. They could even post a sign saying "please do not use our plugs to charge your devices." All of this would have been cheaper, more effective and infinitely less hostile than arresting the guy.
Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels.
Okay. So WE all know it was just $0.05 after the fact, but put yourself in the place of the cop. Someone has a 1+ ton electrical machine plugged into an outlet. Just how much energy is being taken? Without knowing the power, the cop has no idea.
To the cop or average person, the electrical cord is analogous to a siphon.
Anyone caught siphoning gas from a government car into their own car is going to be arrested. This looks like the same thing to the cop.
You're new to this planet, I take it.
Perscriptio in manibus tabellariorum est.
KW*h not KW/h
Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels.
Beware of water faucets too. Why were the electrical outlets not secured. It is tempting to use. In most places where homeowners have swimming pools, they are required to have gate around pool and warning signs. Lack of warning signs at electrical outlet (warning about prosecution - like shoplifter signs) and no physical security is asking for trouble. Good thing no one was hurt.
1] 1kWatt hour/ hour is 1kWatt, of course.
2] It is a kWatt, abbreviated kW, not a Killowatt or Kw. The unit Watt is named after a person and all units named after people have an initial capital - and the abbreviation is also a capital. Multipliers of 10^6 or greater are capitalised. multipliers of 10^-3 or less are lower case. 'k' and 'kilo' for 10^3 is the odd one out, being lower case.
If anyone chooses to criticise the placing of the apostrophe in "Pedant's", bear in mind that if you post here, you will make the apostrophe correctly placed.
1KW/hour makes no sense. The Watt is a unit of power; that is energy transfer per unit time. The "/hour" is just silly and shows the writer's ignorance.
Give him the chair!
This seems like overkill and that is having the cop come to your door (much less the jail part) when a letter / ticket works better.
So what was the outlet there for? If it's on a public building but not meant for public use, it should have been secured, either by locking it or having it shut off inside the building. Actually, the drinking fountain comment is a good point. Obviously, a drinking fountain is there for public use. But what if it's just a faucet? Is getting a drink from a drinking fountain okay, but not a faucet? Is charging a phone okay, but not a car? Where is the line here?
Other than the obviously boneheaded ignorance highlighted by the amounts involved, there needs to be more clarity on which public facilities are available to the public and which are reserved for the institution.
===== Murphy's Law is recursive. =====
So it's OK for the cop to not have some understanding of the crime he is charging someone with?
The judgement of the responding officer was to file a report. Sensible enough. The arrest happened a week later.
RTFA. This opinion is not applicable.
what about people who plug in phones / laptops? Will we start hulling them off to jail as well? What about homeless people who may do this just to get into jail?
Also what about at the airport lot's of people plug in there and lot's of airports are city / local government owned will they track you down and use extradition to have you come back? put out an warrant?
It is theft, but the damages involved are inconsequential. A formal warning by the officer to not do it again would have been a better solution.
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
Okay. So WE all know it was just $0.05 after the fact.
No, no we don't know that. That's what the thief claims. The officer said he had no idea how long the car had been charging.
What about if someone trespasses in my business or residence while the heat is on? Can I get them charged with theft for taking the thermal energy from the air that I paid to put there (along with trespassing charges/etc)? Or adding their body heat and thus incrementally increasing my cooling costs in the summer? What if they use a solar charger in my (let's say windowless for the sake of argument) building while the lights are on? Can I have them charged for stealing my photons?
I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
In AZ theft of service is a felony regardless of cost. Jump out of a taxi without paying your $2.50 fare and it's still a felony.
So... is electric a service or a product?
Since you can't possess or store it I think the law considers it a service (You start and stop your electric service). If GA, like AZ, considers theft of service a felony then the arrest makes perfect sense.
Article X: The powers not delegated... by the Constitution...are reserved...to the people
12A/110V.
Not 1kW.
I don't know about arrested, but this kind of situation has to be controlled. It's super easy to blow a circuit breaker charging an EV off a 110V outlet. And some outlets where the wires aren't connected well will heat up and that can be a problem.
Let's see more EVSEs installed and then we won't have to worry about this issue. And maybe we can charge a little quicker too.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
For free!
My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
In colder parts of Canada, there are outlets provided in parking lots so that drivers can plug in their electric battery/block heaters.f - It kind of ruins your day to not be able to start your car because the oil has gotten too thick. I would not be surprised if the same faculties are available in Western US states and Minnesota. My thoughts on seeing the title was that good-ol' quote from Cool Hand Luke. - Whut we have heah is a failure to communicate.
Too much to expect from some people in charge.
It is also too much to expect from journalists and Slashdot editors. 1KW/hr is a meaningless unit. It is clear from context that it is supposed to be just "1kw".
So it's OK for the cop to not have some understanding of the crime he is charging someone with?
No, he understands the crime he just does not know how serious it is. A reasonable DA, unless there is some other factors not mentioned, would drop the charges.
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
At least the current law in California. Most of section 498 deals with diverting from "utilities" though it may be considered "personal property" and fall under another theft section.
I remember a couple decades back the University Police in Berkeley were beset by complaints about loud late-night music constantly blairing from a boom-box operated by a homeless guy in one of the parking structures. "Disturbing the peace" is a tough sell and he didn't ever get the clue till they started arresting him for stealing electricty from the university since he was plugged into an outlet there.
I've always thought back to that case and wondered if I'm at risk when I charge my laptop from a wall outlet at an airport or coffee shop.
~~~~~~~
"You are not remembered for doing what is expected of you." - Atul Chitnis
[nt]
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
So, you're okay with SPAM because the stealing of services is inconsequential?
The problem isn't the one guy, it is the one guy, times a factor of a couple thousand others, each getting their own free $.05 charge. Pretty soon you're talking thousands of dollars. Stealing is wrong, because it takes from others that which is neither earned or deserved. The amount doesn't matter on one case, but when you excuse the one case, and it becomes common, then you have to "pass a law" to stop it further.
It is much easier to stop it now, before it becomes a legal nightmare.
And why are we praising someone who is being a cheap asshat, simply because it is $.05 worth? Next time, they should simply cut his power cord (unplug it first), and tell him to stop stealing.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Are the only damages (or potential damages) the $0.05 in electricity?
What if that particular circuit was being used for other things, like running a pump to deal with some flooding, and plugging in the car was enough to blow the braker?
Don't hyperbolise.
Did the cop know or reasonably suspect that a theft was being committed? Yes.
Is he required to know exactly the local electricity rates, the rate of the consumption of the car, the time it was plugged it down to the nearest second, the cable losses, and the discount that the school gets on electricity supply before he can make an arrest? No.
And if you read the article, he didn't - he made a report, the arrest came when the facts came to light.
If a kid runs out of a shop chased by security with an armful of things, the cop doesn't need to itemise what he has and whether it reaches a certain figure. You arrest, then you investigate, which is the purpose of the arrest, and then if necessary you "escalate" the arrest to a formal charge.
Being arrested means NOTHING except detaining you on reasonable suspicion of a crime until it can be ascertained whether a crime has been committed or not.
Fact is, he didn't arrest him, that came later when they checked facts. And he can arrest him because he has more than a reasonable suspicion that he took something (a product or service) that didn't belong to him, without permission, and with the intention to permanently deprive the owner of it. MORE THAN reasonable. In that he could see him doing it first-hand and query him about it and get an admission ("Yeah, but it's only 5c!" is basically an admission that you did it if you have anywhere near a half-decent lawyer on the other side).
What part of this confuses you? He was arrested, after much consultation, for a crime he admits doing, that a policeman caught him doing, which the school did not give permission for him to do, petty though it is.
You know what? I bet if he'd asked the school and even said "Here's ten cents for the school charity, can I just plug in my car outside for a minute so I can get home?" they'd have told the police that it was authorised and there'd be no issue.
I claim first post on this one 8^)
While I think this was taken to an extreme there are some issues to be addressed. Mainly, while as a singularity it's not a lot of power I'm going to guess that there could be an issue if every external outlet was plugged into by people charging their cars all at once. The second is a general safety concern. You now have extensions cords running to cars causing hazards. Most places require external cords to either be taped or held down to make them less a tripping issue, was this done? Presumably school was out, but you also have people charging at a middle school where there could be hundreds of kids of the age to get themselves in trouble. None of these warrent and arrest, but they are issues that need to be addressed.
He's not charging. He's arresting, with reasonable evidence that a crime has been committed. The prosecutor would be the one pressing charges, or not if they don't think the case is worthwhile.
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
America doesn't operate on common sense or rational context driven thinking any more, there are rules and that's it, no one is encouraged to evaluate the intent of said law in context, no one is encouraged to think.
In fact minimum sentencing requirements force judges to sentence harshly against their better judgement, and the judges are complaining about it
You might as well just have a computer handing out sentences for all the good it does to have a human judge.
They simply have no choice but to comply, and this is the worst sort of environment to live, no reasoning with anyone, no mercy, no common sense, just "you broke the law".
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
I would award treble damages.
We have the highest incarceration rate because it's profitable, and for no other reason.
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
He has some understanding, someone was stealing power from the school. He doesn't need to know how much.
Imagine if everytime you went to the store, you took a nickel out of the till. Now imagine everyone doing the same thing. No one person is "stealing that much" but in aggregate, they are stealing the store into bankruptcy.
In short, STEALING is a crime, because it wrong, no matter how little you "steal".
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
your runing teh intarnet
I RTA and come to find out the school played a part in this as well. Apparently the school told the cops he didn't have permission to plug in his car and agreed to press charges when asked by the cop.
Long story short: Both the school and the cops are going to be spending money on PR damage control that far exceeds any costs the EV owner could have milked out of their power grid.
If this happened to me, I'd pull my kid out of the school and either move or put him in another school.
seems to be the most generic statement of it. From Wikipedia.
To a Lisp hacker, XML is S-expressions in drag.
It isn't for the cop to decide which law to enforce or what line exists
Actually, to a degree it is. It's called "discretion", and if police officers didn't have it, the amount of laws on the books would render them ineffective and (even more) disliked by the community. Discretion can be abused, and laws should be written better, but the alternative to police discretion is a bunch of people over because they were going 65.001 MPH on a highway and making people into sex offenders for having a pee in the alley behind the bar at 2AM.
The office made a report and charged him 11 days later.
I think he had ample time to determine what the current draw was in his "investigation".
Also, if the guy was there 20 mins or 4 hours, it still doesn't amount to 1$.
His son goes to soccer practice there, I have a very hard time imagining that the school asked to press charges.
And if the school did, I wonder who is more evil in this case, the officer or the school.
then a dime. Pretty soon you're talking about real money!!!
Are the only damages (or potential damages) the $0.05 in electricity?
What if that particular circuit was being used for other things, like running a pump to deal with some flooding, and plugging in the car was enough to blow the braker?
So the next time you run a red light should we lock you up for killing the children that could have been crossing the street at that intersection?
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
His taxes also already paid for all the computer equipment in the school, so perhaps he should've walked right out with that, too. Or at least made off with all the playground equipment, since it was "intentionally installed outside".
You have an odd understanding of "public property".
Do we need sings on each outlet in a public place? Now when you have cops with the 'theft is a theft" mind set maybe we need to go to the extreme? even more so when jail and courts are part of it? what even happened to you can't plug in hear being the end of it?
Didn't airports used to make a big deal but never jail or stuff like this?
They likely meant 1 kW*hr, a unit of energy.
Don't just stand there, get that other dog!
Q: Is this fellow related to the guy who DDoS'd the Koch brothers for 60 seconds?
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Agreed. The line is not well defined, and it is ludicrous that with those ambiguities (why exactly is his car different from a phone, or a laptop?) the police would go to his home at dinner time to arrest him days later.
They intentionally arrested him at 8p. A time when it's hard to get paperwork/representation/hearing, and thus chose that he be forced to jail overnight. Jail overnight! Not for drunken driving, not for violence or endangerment, for an ill-defined "theft". Why would that be a reasonable course of action? If the police picked up someone over a week later for a night in jail for a stolen *anything* with small value, everyone would likely see agenda/corruption driving the decision.
Would they have done that if I plugged in my laptop? My phone? Is this outlet only for maintenance's use? If so, why isn't it secured against this "theft", tampering, or adolescent darwin-award experimentation? If it's for student or community use, why is this a problem?
Is this school private or public? What rights does he have as a student's parent vs. a student vs. anyone else? Could we expect that if one of the faculty charged their phone there, that they too would spend a night in jail?
I suspect it's got a lot to do with politics and a regional dislike of environmentalists or liberals. I'd be very happy to learn otherwise, because the police selectively seeking punitive punishment for what materials goods you possess, and what they infer those goods mean about you is not a great direction for us to be heading.
Getting diabetes AND salmonella would be a bad weekend.
People die every day because another driver is going unsafe speeds on the road, but despite what all those deaths add up to it's only in the most extreme cases of reckless driving is anything more then a ticket given.
I agree with the sentiment that this is a behavior is one that should be curbed for countless good reasons. This though is clearly a case where an arrest is completely inappropriate. A citation would likely have stopped the offender with a net gain for law enforcement rather then the cost of an arrest and the fighting and bad publicity that this is going to lead to.
Stopping the unwanted activity at a net gain to the tax payer seems like a much better deal to me.
Through a fortunate coincidence, the number of hours in a year and the average cost of electricity in the U.S. ($0.12/kWh) means if a device is plugged in 24/7, the Watts it draws translates almost exactly into $ per year. Most laptops draw about 30 W while charging. A phone about 5 W. So if people were constantly using that outlet to charge their laptops and phones 24/7, the school or business would only pay $30 or $5 extra in a year. They may very well decide that's small enough they'll just pay it as a convenience to their visitors.
1 kW to charge an EV is an entirely different matter (it's actually probably closer to 1.5 kW which is about the safe limit for most residential 110V 20A circuits; 1 kW is probably the battery's charge rate after thermal losses). Allowing your outlets to be used to to charge EVs would drive up your electric bill by hundreds of dollars a year per outlet to a max $1500. So it's perfectly reasonably for a school or business to prohibit visitors charging EVs on their dime.
Or from the EV owner's perspective, if you can leech a 8 hours of electricity from your workplace and random stores and schools 5 days/week for a year, you'll have stolen about $350 worth of electricity by the end of the year. That's what this is about, not 5 cents. Saying it's about 5 cents is like saying a bank robber should go free because he was caught before he actually managed to steal any money.
most cops give at least 5MPH more on high speed roads.
also most of the interstates / tolls roads no one is doing the 55 the 85th percentile is 70-73
1kw is meaningless, without a time period.
It's a unit of power, not energy.
What if, what if, what if... The problem with "what if" is that it didn't happen, except in your head.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
...would it have been as big of a deal?
Not sure about how things work in America...But looks like this school is a public school. If this is a public school, then isnt its building and facilities public property ? Like the park and the water fountain there ? Of course there can be access and usage restrictions...but in the absence of any known restrictions, wouldnt public property be usable by all and any ?
Public institution doesn't mean its resources are available to the general public for use as they see fit. His taxes are spent there to educate students. Slaking your thirst is not the same as slaking the thirst of your lawn, car or other personal property. That being said, the arrest was a waste of resources and a simple warning was in order.
There is some historical precedence for this this thing. One boss caught the employee using company electricity for personal purposes, and the employee explained that he had his friend fax in a wad of electricity. Oh, yeah, here is the citation for you.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
No but you don't issue him a warning either... simply because there are much more potentially serious consequences to the action.
I don't know about where you're at, but around here, we get billed in dollars and cents.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
Ernesto Ford? Hmmmm - would he have done the same for someone driving a Chevy Volt?
if you get up to 1.81 jiggawatts, then you can choose your own time period
Sings? Yessir - both Country AND Western! Ahhhhh... you mean signs!
Are the only damages (or potential damages) the $0.05 in electricity?
What if that particular circuit was being used for other things, like running a pump to deal with some flooding, and plugging in the car was enough to blow the braker?
So the next time you run a red light should we lock you up for killing the children that could have been crossing the street at that intersection?
I'm OK with that; IMO running a red light is criminal negligence.
Counter-argument: Would you say a person that discharges a firearm in a crowded place should not be punished?
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
hey can i take 10 cents of gas out of your car per hour
For calling the vehicle a Leaf
Presumably short for Tea Leaf
Chamblee Middle School (http://www.chambleems.dekalb.k12.ga.us/) is part of the Dekalb County (Georgia) School System. DCSS is the most fucked-up school district in the USA. The former Superintendent was arrested for theft by taking, the replacement Superintendent abandoned her job and the current Superintendent is a political hack who lacks the qualifications required to hold a teacher's license. The former COO was just found guilty of racketeering. The DCSS school board was removed by the state Governor and the school system is currently on "Accredited Probation", the only school system in the country with that status.
Some recent news coverage of Dekalb County School System:
Court upholds law used to suspend DeKalb school board members: http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/court-upholds-law-used-to-suspend-dekalb-school-bo/nb4Cx/
Ex-DeKalb school official found guilty of racketeering: http://www.11alive.com/news/article/313666/40/Verdict-reached-in-DeKalb-corruption-trial
DeKalb teacher accused of beating special needs elementary student with stick: http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/dekalb-teacher-accused-beating-special-needs-eleme/nb26M/
School superintendent negotiates settlement in expensive legal battle: http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local-education/school-superintendent-negotiates-settlement-in-exp/nb89X/
DeKalb Schools placed on probation: http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/dekalb-schools-placed-probation/nTYSp/
DeKalb’s graduation rate under the new state formula: 58.65% (Meaning that 42% of Dekalb Students DO NOT GRADUATE!) http://dekalbschoolwatch.wordpress.com/2012/04/12/dekalbs-graduation-rate-under-the-new-state-formula-58-65/
Not locking something up is not, and has never been an excuse for theft.
This case certainly wasn't worth pursuing. But let's not pretend it wasn't petty theft. It clearly was.
Mr Kaveh Kamooneh is clearly not white, in fact appears to be of middle eastern descent, and this arrest was in Georgia after all. If the arrrest happened up here in Canada, it wouldn't even occur to me that race might be involved, particularly since the arresting officers are just as likely to be non-white themselves. But since it was indeed in Georgia, there is a small chance that race might have been involved in the decision to proceed with criminal charges.
I need a wheelchair van for my son. Help me get the word out. https://www.gofundme.com/wheelchair-van-for-jj
Hectare (as in 100 ares, an are being 100 square meters) is standard and quite common in Metric countries, and is abbreviated ha.
The conversion is approx 2.471 acre = 1 ha
Hopelessly pedantic since 1963.
Well, there is what 'most cops' will do, and then there is what 'individual cops can do'.
Do we need signs on each outlet in a public place? Now when you have cops with the 'theft is a theft" mind set maybe we need to go to the extreme? even more so when jail and courts are part of it? what even happened to you can't plug in hear being the end of it?
Didn't airports used to make a big deal but never jail or stuff like this?
On the other hand, over thousands of people and many years the overall theft adds up to...
A tipping point adoption of the electric car
-- I was raised on the command line, bitch
kW/hour is rate of change of power, or how much demand or supply changes over time. Not something a household would need to worry about, but the folks at the power generating stations might make use of such units.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
and a smart person installs a switch and turns them off when they aren't in use.
1KW/hr is a meaningless unit.
I agree that it's completely wrong here, but it's not necessarily meaningless: you could legitimately say "The energy consumption was increasing at a rate of 1kW/hr"...
Need to type accents and special characters in Windows? Use FrKeys
1500Watts max. Meaning that to even add up to a whole dollar, he'd have to stay there overnight.
The school could have stepped in and said they have informally allowed it (thus graciously letting this guy off the hook), but now that it has become a big deal, they'll print up $30 per year tags to hang on the rear view mirror that gives parents the right to charge during school operating hours. Win for the school: they get to tap a small revenue source (but every little bit helps), and get to look progressive with parents that have the disposable income to choose EV's. Win for the parents: they get to top off during school events that they attend.
Cops don't like Hippies. What's new here?
Oh, I agree that the police officer waited and had sufficient evidence that a crime was committed. However, by his arresting the person instead of simply giving a ticket, that gentleman is now entered into the NCIC database. One major problem with that database. It's not just used by the government. It's used also for background checks to see if someone has been arrested. Doesn't matter how the case is resolved in the courts. The mere existence of that little record in NCIC is going to haunt that gentleman for the rest of his life. In fact, that little datum will in many cases prevent various corporations from ever hiring him if he ever desires to take employment with them. Frankly,that officer showed extreme lack of judgement and at the very least ought to be reprimanded.
If it was a significant problem they'd have put a padlock on the outdoor socket already. Or switched it off at the circuit breaker inside.
Actually, many stores have the change cup for rounding.
I'll bet if they had asked him for 5 cents he'd have probably given them whatever coil came to hand and told them to keep the change.
Maybe the power draw ramps up over time? Rate of change of power can be measured in kW/h.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
For powering the robots of Armageddon, I see then. Carry on.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
Kaveh Kammoneh did state that he found the officer in his car in the first article. The news article didn't include that portion in the written article even though it is in the attached video.
These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
This almost happened to me at a Pizzeria Unos in Washington DC in 2003.
I was sitting at a booth and plugged in my charger. The manager came over, starting asking questions about the service, and asked me why I had been there so long. He said he noticed I was stealing electricity from the restaurant and the police had been called, and would not let me get out of the booth.
When the cops came, they took me out to the car in cuffs. They talked with the manager for about 45 minutes. I was released with the promise that I would never return to the restaurant again.
It's strange to think how different things are today, where everyone just does this anytime they are out. But yeah, people have strange outlooks on this sometimes.
It was installed on the outside of the building for the same reason you have electrical outlets on the outside of your house.
It was installed so that visitors leaving their cars in the parking lot could plug in their block heaters?
I don't really see how that example is helping your case.
I would argue that your position is the morally challenged position. You are advocating a punishment way beyond the 'crime'. You are also arguing in favor of petty and vindictive behavior from civil servants.,/p>
Actually, we do not know that it was petty theft. It may have been, but it is possible the outlet was there for people who were legitimately on the property to charge cell-phones/laptops/other electronic devices. There are not enough details in either of the stories for us to know whether or not this was an actual crime (although it is clear that if it was a crime, it was a very minor crime).
There are so many facts we do not know that it is hard to form a solid opinion about it. I do not have particular sympathy for the owner of the car (although if certain facts come to light, that could easily change). On the other hand, my inclination is to suspect that the police officer was abusing his authority (I can think of numerous things that might come to light to change that, although that would require more than what would be required for me to start sympathizing with the owner of the car).
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
For the guy in TFA to rise to the level of spammer, he would have needed to plug in to a million outlets all over the city at the same time AND not stop when told not to do it anymore.
The whole world would be better off with a little more slack.
Me running a red light costs $0.00 if it causes no accidents. Why would I still be issued a fine? Infact it probably saves $0.05, since less oil will be burnt accelerating my car again, my brake pads will last longer. Both of those things reduce carbon emissions blah blah less oil wasted blah blah national debt importing more etc.
As the cops confirmed they'd given no permission, it was certainly petty theft.
They are all charging their phones and laptops from the provided electrical outlets!
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
Are the only damages (or potential damages) the $0.05 in electricity?
What if that particular circuit was being used for other things, like running a pump to deal with some flooding, and plugging in the car was enough to blow the braker?
So the next time you run a red light should we lock you up for killing the children that could have been crossing the street at that intersection?
No, you would get a ticket. And the jackass that willfully plugged his car into the outlet without permission should have gotten a ticket.
Charter Member of The Committee Group For The Elimination And Eradication Of Repetitive Redundancy
Before you attempt to act against the officer of the law, have the laws changed first.
Getting mad at someone for doing their job-enforcing the law-you as a citizen has asked them to do is a bit shit.
A famous law enforcement officer shared your opinion.
FTW
kW/h, not kW*h.
Or are you going to tell me you measure velocity in metres*seconds, not metres/seconds?
Or Miles * hours, so the faster you're travelling, the smaller the number? 100 miles in 4 hours is not 400 mile per hour, is 25 miles per hour.
I frequent a public school on weekends to use the grounds to fly rc planes, there are several receptacles outside I could use to charge my battery packs, I do not as these are obviously intended for school use and not public use. There is a port-a-potty on premises that I use that is obviously for public use.
I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
That Cop in the video is a scumbag and should be fired. He is a SERVANT of the people not the fricking terminator.
His attitude is disgusting and he is the perfect example of the absolute worst type of cop out there. Zero compassion, zero respect to the OATH he took.
Although I will bet $$$ that the asshole speeds when off duty and breaks a lot of laws. Cops dont have to obey laws.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
So what was the outlet there for? If it's on a public building but not meant for public use, it should have been secured, either by locking it or having it shut off inside the building. Actually, the drinking fountain comment is a good point. Obviously, a drinking fountain is there for public use. But what if it's just a faucet? Is getting a drink from a drinking fountain okay, but not a faucet? Is charging a phone okay, but not a car? Where is the line here?
Exactly where the company chooses to draw it, in most production companies taking one chocolate off the production line and with you home is a firing offense even if it's worth five cents. Things that are provided for work (materials, tools, services, products, whatever) are there to let everyone do their job, any other incidental use you might want it for is up to their acceptable use policy. Would a network manager accept that people connected their own devices to the internal networks to siphon off a few bytes of the Internet connection to check their mail? I very much doubt that unless you work in a BYOD workplace or have guest networks set up specifically for that purpose.
Most employers tend to take a reasonable approach on marginal costs (browsing the Internet, private call on work phone, printing two pages or making five photocopies, charge your cell phone) because being an ass works both ways but strictly speaking they could put me in a secure compartmentalized zone and deny me bringing almost anything in and out except myself and the clothes on my back. Of course then I'd say I'm working for paranoid nuts and not Top Secret military systems and find myself a sane employer, but it'd be totally legal. But I have worked on systems that simply didn't have Internet access, go to special terminals if you need it.
So how far could you go in the absence of any written policy, oral approval, signs or any other obvious indications? Well there's implied permission, if they offered parking spaces and those parking spaces had EV chargers on them (like one per space) I'd take permission to park to also imply permission to use the chargers. But if there just happens to be a socket in the parking lot so anyone working there could run a power tool, I'd say you don't have that. It could be things that are so commonplace that you wouldn't ask, like using the bathroom if you already have legitimate business in the building. Charging your car isn't that though.
I think they're technically correct, though I'm a repeat offender of "accidental theft of ballpoint pen" and if the law was applied to the fullest I'd have way more than three strikes. I think it's mostly because siphoning off gas to power your car is generally recognized as a crime, siphoning off electricity to do the same sounds equivalent. It doesn't sound like something you could do without at least some form of permission. It's all fairly relative though, if EVs become common it might be commonly understood that sockets are there for charging them and you'd need to explicitly deny it. But that's ten, twenty years from now and not today.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
So if I live next to a school, I can just run an extension cord over to my house and not have to pay for electricity ever again? AWESOME!
No, your tax dollars pay for the school to provide education services, not electricity services. Paying for one thing and taking something else as well is theft.
My question is how long was the chord he used to charge?
Most schools I've been to you'd need a very long chord to reach an outside receptacle from the parking lot.
I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
Only if he meant to hit someone — without a legal reason to do that.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
What are you going to do with the extra 0.6 jiggawatts? You only need one point twenty one jiggawatts to power the flux capacitor.
An informal warning of, "dude that is not right, stop that and don't let me catch you doing that again." Is all that is needed to be done, it's the honest response.. Instead the cops decided to be the scumbags and take the nuclear option.
Which reinforces the image that cops should never ever be trusted as they will not be reasonable or honest.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
No it's not. enforcing the law means you do it properly acting like a public servant, not frigging Judge Dredd style.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
I always mess up some mundane piece of the quote :)
It's true. He might have really been there 2.5 hours, and stole a whole quarter.
In Georgia? Where the temperature drops below 0 C for about twelve minutes every year?
I would be surprised if you could even _find_ a block heater in that state, let alone plug it in and use it.
This office did the exact opposite of Judge Dredd. The guy gets to see a real judge now, not get off scott free.
The cop should have just removed the offending charging cable with some rubber gloves and a bolt cutter. Problem solved.
Only when you hit 88mph.
Only if he meant to hit someone — without a legal reason to do that.
Ah, so if the guy standing next to you in line shoots a gun at the ground, and the round ricochets and hits you in the femoral artery, you don't think he should be charged with a crime, since he didn't mean to kill you.
You realize that's insane, don't you? Or are you one of those people who flat out refuses to take responsibility for their own actions?
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
I'm pretty sure if the guy plugged his laptop into the wall or his cell phone, no one would complain.
What would the ticket be for? You don't ticket thieves, you arrest them - and this "gentlemen" is a thief caught red-handed. Too damned bad he didn't consider the rest of his life before he siphoned energy without feeling the need to pay for it.
And he can arrest him because he has more than a reasonable suspicion that he took something (a product or service) that didn't belong to him, without permission, and with the intention to permanently deprive the owner of it.
Man, you are talking through you nose here... it's AC current, the electrons in school's wires are still in place, not a single one is lost.
Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
Wow, 1KW/*hour*. Does that mean it's drawing more the longer you leave it on? ;)
echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:" net@madduck
It's 12A. And the breaker will be at 15A. 12A is the max allowed for continuous on a 15A circuit (20% derate) and car charging is considered continuous use by code.
The breakers will not be rated for over 20A. It depends on the wire, but the outlets aren't rated for more than 15A usually, 20A tops and you cannot put a breaker higher than the outlet rating on a circuit in the US. In other countries like the UK where outlets are individually fused, you can have a high power "ring circuit" such as you speak of.
It is very easy to trip circuit breakers charging EVs off random outlets like this. This alone is a good reason for people not to charge off random outlets like this, think of the people inside who lose services because you tripped their breaker.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
As a matter of fact, no, I do not think, he should be charged over my death. I know, he would be, but in my not-so-humble opinion, he should not be — only with the unlawful discharging of the firearm, because that was what he intended to do and the punishment should not depend on whether the bullet ricocheted into anyone or missed.
Likewise, there should be no difference between attempted and regular murder (or other crime) — the punishment for murderous intent should be the same regardless of the success. The victim dying (or surviving) later in the hospital should not affect the punishment of the perpetrator.
I firmly believe, it would be beneficial for the society, if the criminal system prosecuted the intents instead of results. It is most unfortunate, that we can not (with today's technology) reliably know the intent in all cases...
Come, come, let's not devolve into ad hominems this early in the conversation...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
IANAL, but if a public building has a resource available in a common area without access controls or signage indicating its use is restricted, isn't it a reasonable assumption that the resource is a public accomodation available for all to use?
It seems to me that it's not reasonable to make resources available without signage or access controls in a public space and then arrest someone for actually using them.
There may be finer-grained questions about what would constitute "reasonable use" -- ie, I can't run a hose from a public drinking fountain to fill my swimming pool, and maybe charging EVs would violate reasonable use, but unless you post rules for the outlet or some kind of locking mechanism, using an outlet on the outside of a public building to charge an EV in the building's parking lot doesn't seem like theft.
An employer I had a few years ago stated that any electrical device plugged in at work premises would be "theft" and you would be fired and charges pressed against you. No cell phone recharging, no lamp, no fan, nothing that plugged in. You plug it in and they catch you = lose your job and get arrested. Seen the Operations Manager have security pull someone from their desk and walk them out the door for plugging in a cell phone and then putting it in a desk drawer to try to hide it.
I would never just ASSUME something like a electrical outlet or water or anything is OK to use just because you can reach it.
Would you park in someones driveway and decide to wash your car because HEY they left a hose right there where you can reach?
Would you just take a plant from someones garden because hey you can reach it from the sidewalk?
Theft is theft.
Your absolutism is puerile. Arrest someone for plugging a device into a public outlet? It's the height of insanity. Do you also advocate for slamming someone to the pavement if they enter a crosswalk one second before the Walk sign illuminates? It's technically jaywalking, so why not, eh? Should you face the massive fines and jail terms described in the fine print of a government document if you leave off a period in your address? Hey, you signed it to attest it's accurate, right? It's. Your. Fault. Please remove yourself from our company until such time as you can demonstrate an adult, mature understanding of the world we live in.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
We only have the driver's word that he been drawing power from the outlet for a bare twenty minutes.
In North America and Japan using a standard household outlet (120-volt, 15 amp breaker, 12 amp maximum allowable draw, 1.4 kW) and the 7.5-meter (25 ft) cable included by Nissan, the Leaf will regain approximately 5 miles of range per hour. This type of charging is ideal for the commuter that can plug into standard outlets at home and at work during the typical 21 hours a day that the typical North American car is parked. It is also useful for emergency charging from any ubiquitous 120-volt outlet just about anywhere in North America.
Nissan Leaf: Recharging
The Chamblee Middle School [Google Maps] has limited public parking
It puzzles me how anyone not on staff could have found an accessible outlet within cord length.
I think it is within bounds for the officer to ask whether as staff or guest of the school you have permission to draw down 12 amps from an unmarked and unsecured 15 amp line --- which may be in use elsewhere.
Theft of services is a crime.
But the greater crime may be to assume that any random electrical outlet you come across can safely charge your car.
Where all organizations are going to have to install charging stations. And the rate around here in 14 cents per kWh - so let's say you're in an office 8 hours a day, that would come out to $1.12 a day, or $5.60 a week, or a total of $291.20 per year to keep your car plugged in 8 hours a day for 5 days a week.
I say put them in supermarkets and charge a couple bucks to charge, put em' in places of business and charge what I showed above. Electric cars would be all over the place.
Look, I get the importance of intent in law.
But that doesn't change the fact that a person can act negligently, without intent, and still deserve to be punished.
Case in point, I doubt any parent intends to kill their child by leaving them unattended in a hot car, but they do, and society has a need to punish them for their negligent actions.
Go watch this, then try and come back here and tell me that stupid bitch shouldn't be punished.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Racial profiling? Where does it even say what color anyone was?
Are we really letting our society get so stupid that any white person who does something to a non-white person is guilty of being a racist? Are we going to have to call the black police to arrest black people, Mexican police to arrest Mexicans? What do we do if a white guy, a black guy and a Mexican guy committed a crime? Then let's even confuse it further. What if one of them was a woman?
Are we going to have to go back to separate white's and colored's facilities to avoid all the cries of racism? It seems like all of this wonderful racial accusation just incites racism, not subdues it.
How can we ignore the color of someone's skin when we are accused of racism if we apply the rules equally to everyone and one of those people's skin had a different color?
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
If it's a public school, then a tax-paying citizen can reasonably claim he has already paid for the electricity in question. Should we now ask special permission to walk down the sidewalk or drive down the street? No, of course not. We as taxpayers have already paid for it.
The policeman was way, way out of line. He should find himself without a job in short order. Boneheads like him give commanders ulcers with the PR fallout.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
No, a breaker doesn't immediately trip at 0.1A over. Not even close.
And you say there are 40A outlets? No kidding. I would think you'd know the names NEMA 14-50 and NEMA 6-50 (stove/dryer outlets). This article isn't about NEMA 14s or 6s or the rare 5-50., it's about regular NEMA 5 household outlets ("standard 115v nominal household (NEMA 5-15p) plug is rated for 15 amps").
Please tell me your name so I can know I'm not having you wire my house.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
if this goes to court ask for a jury trial
1kw is meaningless, without a time period.
It's a unit of power, not energy.
Right. Which is why 1kW / hr doesn't make any sense. Power is a rate, watts is equivalent to Joules per second. So 1 kW / hour is an acceleration in the draw of energy, or 0.278 J / s^2.
They also didn't mean 1 kW * hr for their energy, because the rest of the sentence specified that "1 kW / hr" was $0.10 and he parked for less than 30 minutes. So yeah, clearly they meant just 1kW, and the time period is 30 minutes. Or 0.5 kW * hr for the energy.
So, your interpretation is that any use of the outlet outside of official school business is stealing. That's fine. I think it's unclear.
Shall a faculty member charging a personal cell phone also expect to overnight in jail? With the absolutism you're using, I don't see how you can suggest this situation is different.
And, that should be absurd to anyone.
Getting diabetes AND salmonella would be a bad weekend.
I work at a college and we have no problem when people plug in various chargers. We're talking 60-80 watts max for a laptop, 5-20 for a phone or tablet. At a kilowatt-hour per hour for his EV, we're talking 1000 watts, or about 8.3 amps at 120 volts, give or take the efficiencies & power factors involved. There's a HUGE difference between the use of (in our case) college electricity for charging a mobile device, and 'fueling' your car on our nickel.
The entitlement mentality of the asshat driving the Leak (er, Leaf) that he has the 'right' to plug in to any outlet he sees is the real problem. Who knows where else he has plugged in, thinking that anyone who has electricity somehow owes him 'fuel' for his vehicle. I have no problem whatever that the police officer arrested him. Reading a number of comments on the ARS Technica site, I was amazed at people who looked only at the amount and totally ignored the intent. The issue worthy of contemplation here, IMHO, is the driver's intent to steal 'fuel' for his ride wherever he could find it.
Using his logic, I should siphon some gas from one of the idle school buses when I'm visiting. After all, my taxes paid for it!
The fact his kid goes to school there and he pays taxes is totally moot. If a rake was leaning up against the building, why shouldn't he take that? Yes, it's a lot more than $0.05, but that's a matter of scale, not a matter of intent. Simply because he drives an EV (which my tax dollars subsidized, whether I like it or not) does not further entitle him to steal his 'fuel.'
He was arrested at 8p, specifically to ensure he had to spend the night in jail.
Yes, they did investigate before making the arrest and determine that he did something chargeable. Good on them.
Then they threw him in jail overnight for...? What exactly? Even requesting a court appearance via the mail (such as with a moving violation from traffic cams) would be ludicrous in this case, but they wanted to maximize their punishment, it would appear.
What part of that glossed over bit that they intentionally arrested him after the courts are closed is reasonable?
Getting diabetes AND salmonella would be a bad weekend.
It is possible, that negligence — causing bad things to happen without any intent — should be punished. But, in your example, the charges brought up against such parents currently are murder (or involuntary homicide, whatever the fine distinction), when it should be just that — negligence.
Switching to "my" system would raise the punishment for some things, while lowering it for some others. But none of it matters to the case in TFA: the man is not charged with anything but theft.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
He's not charging. He's arresting
He reported. The arrest came days later.
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
Almost every new-user-hire paperwork I've read recently includes "reasonable use of facility" language that includes things like charging your phone at your desk.
The guy who rolled up on a municipal building and plugged in his Leaf was a douche. I imagine that an overwhelming percentage of Leaf owners not planning a trip to a friend's house for an overnight leave their charger firmly plugged in in their garage. ..but there's plenty of power vampires out there. [In my neighborhood, it's mostly the hipster homeless (ipads and laptops, but no home) using the power plug at the gazebo by the library for their WiFi to watch Netflix. *shrug* Priorities.]
PlugShare, among other apps, shows parking spots where users have reported "unguarded" outlets. I expect hobo-style chalk symbols soon. :/
Does that mean we've got the right to use the classrooms whenever we feel like it, too?
Need some supplies for your meth lab? Just take what you need from chemistry class, as long as you pay your taxes.
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
You need to learn a little bit about government funding and ownership. The taxpayer does NOT own things that are purchased with taxpayer money.
The law does not concern itself with trifles:
There was a young man named Rex
Who had diminutive organs of sex
When charged with exposure
He said with composure
De minimis non curat lex
Determining the size of the arresting officer's gonads is left as an exercise for the reader.
I would demand that they monitor and arrest every person using the water fountain as well, after all water is also metered and billed , so any non student drinking should be arrested as well right?
Am I the only one who actually read the article? He was banned from using the tennis courts that he was using. The cops had a 911 call about the plug. He accused the cops of damaging his porperty and was confrontational. I've got no problem with him being arrested.
Everyone else in the world that plugs anything into a public school's outside outlets deserves to have their dinner interrupted for a punitive night in jail? Gee, that's not very reasonable.
Why isn't it reasonable?
If the guy was siphoning just a tiny bit of gas from a school bus, I'd have him arrested.
If he was wandering into the chemistry department and stealing only one flask, I'd have him arrested.
If he was only digging up one plant of their landscaping, I'd have him arrested.
What's the difference? What makes stealing electricity OK?
I think the guy stealing penny candy at the supermarket is a colossal douche too. Fuck him. I have to pay a tiny percentage more for my penny candy for every one of those assholes. Fuck them all running.
Everyone's making a big deal out of what time they went to get him. You go to the address on his driver's license in the evening, because he's likely to be home instead of at work.
It takes 20 hours to fully charge a Leaf on 110. A 30-minute charge gets you 1/40th of a "tank" or about 2 miles. It's not worth going out of your way to get 2 miles of charge. It's not only a dick move on his part, it's a giant waste of time.
I don't accept "I only stole 5 cents of electricity" as a defense. HE KNEW WHAT HE WAS DOING. Those are the worst kind of assholes - the ones who'll do it because they're entitled to do it. I'll just steal some electricity from the city -- I mean, lol, what are they going to do about it...
Good. Screw him. Gives a bad name to the rest of us Leaf owners.
Sure, but only for an hour or so per day. And you have to come to wherever my car happens to be at the time. And if someone else is taking their 10 cents worth when you get there, you have to come back later.
As an aside, if you were to steal 10c worth of my of gas, assuming hypothetically it was possible to prove you only intended to steal 10c worth, not the whole tank, and that it were possible for you to do so without causing any other damage like breaking into the gas door, do you think the police would go out of their way to throw you in jail for this 10c theft? Even if I didn't report it or care, and they just happened to notice?
It was a school, that's not really a building intended for full public access. If this was an outlet in a public park I would agree, but not at a school.
Also the cop was responding to a 911 call specifically about that car being plugged in to the outlet.
Cool. Why should I buy a car? The military base near me has tanks. Sure they get shitty MPG, but they also have vast reserves of diesel for me to fill up at.
Your ad here. Ask me how!
The officer could have given him a Notice to Appear. That would require him to go to court and deal with the matter. However, a NTA is not an arrest and as such doesn't result in an entry in the NCIC database. It would have remained a local matter and dealt with locally without frankly screwing up the gentleman's life. The office quite frankly did the worst possible thing he could do for a $0.05 offense. And before you claim that the officer wasn't aware of the magnitude of the offense, that ... creature ... spent 10 days to verify his charges. You think he couldn't figure out that the maximum draw was on the order of a kilowatt? The officer basically spent a hell of a lot more than $0.05 of government money in order to screw over that person for life. And the timing on the arrest? Well, that's just icing on the cake.
I thought 911 was meant for emergency calls. This hardly seems like an emergency.
To haters over this comment, you should understand there are reasonable and unreasonable expectations of service here. Water fountains, toilets, toilet paper, soap, paper towels, hand dryers, etc are public useable in schools so long as the person using them has a legitimate reason to be at the school. They won't yell if you plug in your phone where I'm from, I doubt they'd care about a car.
Don't bring private property such as your/my house into this debate - it doesn't belong here, as a school is PUBLIC PROPERTY. Different rules apply.
Stealing a school bus or breaking into the school to hold your own function without permission/paying for the space rental is one thing, but using the utilities there when you're there for whatever legitimate reason is fine.
I see people use the playgrounds all the time during the off hours - should we arrest them for depreciating and breaking down public property? This police state crap is awful.
That's 1.81 Gigawatts. Doc Brown used the alternative pronunciation, but the spelling is the same.
Well, you were stealing.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
On Slashdot, one can get modded "troll" for pointing out that people shouldn't be considered guilty without at least _some_ evidence. "I bet" does not count as evidence.
If it was a significant problem they'd have put a padlock on the outdoor socket already. Or switched it off at the circuit breaker inside.
It wasn't a problem just a year ago because nobody would need that outlet. Now more and more outdoor outlets are locked, and lockable covers are available at Home Depot.
So, you're okay with SPAM because the stealing of services is inconsequential?
Umm, no. Let's make a reasonable analogy to this situation. Suppose I have my email address posted on a public website, perhaps as someone employed by a public institution providing public services. Someone emails me for a legitimate reason -- perhaps even offering me a service or something that would be relevant to my work or something in the context of where my email address is posted. But I don't want that service, and perhaps I'm even an inappropriate person to contact about this.
Now, is this "spam"? Perhaps. But if it was actually a specific contact meant to inform me (hypothetically a public employee) of something the sender thought was appropriate (not a random solicitation or link to some scam site or whatever), the reasonable response is to reply to the email and say: "Please do not send me any more messages like this."
Case closed.
If this person continues to actually SPAM my address, after I informed them that the initial contact was inappropriate, then yeah -- I'm in favor of levying HUGE fines and perhaps even putting them in jail. I HATE spam. But a single person targeting a single public official/resource for a reasonable reason one time? Give them a warning, and the person probably just won't do it again.
[Note I'm not getting into the debate here about whether this was a "safe" thing to do. Maybe it wasn't, and if so, maybe it justifies a ticket and fine... but not what happened.]
The problem isn't the one guy, it is the one guy, times a factor of a couple thousand others, each getting their own free $.05 charge. Pretty soon you're talking thousands of dollars.
Your math is off. A "couple thousand" times $0.05 only comes to $100, NOT "thousands of dollars." It would take huge numbers of people doing this at this outlet almost continuously to rack up "thousands of dollars" in electrical charges.
Stealing is wrong, because it takes from others that which is neither earned or deserved
Yep. But what if you don't realize it's stealing? What if you legitimately believe it's a public resource? Suppose you go to a coffee shop or something, and there's a little tray sitting out by the cash register that looks like one of those "Give a penny, Take a penny" things. You take five pennies out to help pay for your order. But it turns out that tray was actually a tip "jar". You officially stole 5 cents. Should we arrest you?
I don't think this guy did something that reasonable. But I don't know what this outlet was generally used for. If students often plugged things like phones in to charge, perhaps this guy might have thought this would be okay. In that case, you tell the guy about his mistake, warn him if he does it again that he'll be ticketed or charged with theft, and go on with your day. Or even write him a ticket, if you want to "send a message." But wait a few days and then go arrest him and make him spend a night in jail?? That seems overkill unless there were something else the guy clearly did wrong.
It is much easier to stop it now, before it becomes a legal nightmare.
Fine. Hand out a ticket. Make the guy pay a small fine. Word will get out, and people won't do it any more. Better yet, just turn off the power to the outlet when not in official use, or even just put up a freakin' sign explaining that it's only for official use. Then there's no ambiguity.
And why are we praising someone who is being a cheap asshat, simply because it is $.05 worth?
Who is praising him? I'm not praising him. But the punishment should fit the crime. Warning? Yeah. Additional measures to prevent future abuse? Perhaps. Ticket and fine? Maybe, if the guy was a jerk about it or there was some safety issue. Arrest him and keep him in jail? Nope... that's not necessary to get your message across.
If you were actually concerned about expense to taxpayers, you would be complaining about the cop wasting police department time and money, and the court's time and money, and you would have a point. As it it is though, you're just being silly. -Jay-
No, all units are lowercase in SI (in English), but abbreviations of units named after people are usually capitalized. For example, 1 joule per second (1 J/s) is equal to 1 watt (1 W).
Is citation an option, though? It is spelled out in the law for traffic violations, but is there any provision for anything like that in the law for other areas?
Maybe there should be. Maybe this case should shine the light on the need.
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
The school is very, very luck to have stopped this power drain so early. At a rate of 1kW/hr, the car would have drawn 2kW by hour 2, and 10kW after 10 hours. This is very dangerous - to have an energy draw that is accelerating!
Why oh why didn't they design a car that just draw 1kW? You know, as in 3600 kJ/hour? That would be much more sensible.
Having an accelerating power draw - 1kW/hr - is a recipe for disaster. Explosions and stuff.
Imagine if everytime you went to the store, you took a nickel out of the till. Now imagine everyone doing the same thing. No one person is "stealing that much" but in aggregate, they are stealing the store into bankruptcy.
What does that have to do with this? Nothin'.
In short, STEALING is a crime, because it wrong
That makes no sense. What is moral is not always legal, and what is immoral is not always illegal. Stealing isn't necessarily a crime merely because it's wrong.
On the other hand, over thousands of people and many years the overall theft adds up to a lot if left unchecked.
Again, that's ridiculous. You shouldn't punish someone severely to make an example out of them; the punishment should fit the crime. The end.
This is not an attitude I'd expect from the "land of the free and the home of the brave."
Looks like contempt of cop. The cop was obviosly offended and felt he had to get the guy so he waited to arrest him till 8pm for what at best is misdemeaner theft the guy is going to at worst get a small fine or couple hours community service. Likely that unless the cop is friends with the prosecuter or Judge he'll probably get a warning. But as you said, the cop knew all that but wanted to punish the guy so he arrested him at 8pm to make sure he spends a night in jail.
What part of this confuses you? He was arrested, after much consultation, for a crime he admits doing, that a policeman caught him doing, which the school did not give permission for him to do, petty though it is.
Two parts: (1) traditionally, the availability of a readily accessible power outlet has been a cue that the outlet is available for (free) use by everyone who's authorized to be in the area. It's not a theft because--in the language of our existing social norms and conventions--the receptacle is actually an invitation unless there's specific signage to the contrary. If you don't believe that, well, then you'd better not charge your personal cell phone at work, plugin your laptop at the airport, or hookup your GPS to your buddy's lighter port without getting explicit permission.
And (2) the part about it being only 5 cents. It does society no good to saddle innocent, productive citizens with criminal records for a 5-cent infraction. That's just crazy. Seeing things in such black-and-white terms creates a user-hostile society that is focused on legalism and pedantry to the exclusion of real justice.
-1, Too Many Layers Of Abstraction
Schools are not 'public' buildings, sorry to burst your ignorance bubble. They are for students registered in them to be at certain times of the day. Students can not freely roam schools whenever they want.
PARENTS MUST VISIT THE OFFICE AND REGISTER OR BE GIVEN EXPLICITLY PERMISSION IN ADVANCE IN EVERY SCHOOL IN THE NATION FOR SECURITY PURPOSES. It has been this way for years.
You are not allowed to take the computers that are in the building ... paid for by public funds. You are not allowed to walk into the cafeteria at 1am and make yourself a snack. You are not allow to take a fucking desk because you paid your taxes.
The problem is your stupid thought that these are public buildings that anyone can do anything they want with. Thats as retarded as saying that its okay for me to take every book in a library and keep it at my house forever since I paid my taxes and its public property.
You fucks with your 'I'm entitled to everything' mentality need to get a freaking clue.
The drinking fountain IS NOT THERE FOR PUBLIC USE. Its there for STUDENT USE. You're just ignorant of reality and assume that you too are entitled to use it. You're wrong.
There is no problem with clarity, you're just an idiot who hasn't learned that you're not entitled to take whatever you want.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
why exactly is his car different from a phone, or a laptop?
Are you seriously on slashdot posting that stupid of a question? Quantity might have something to do with it.
Faculty is supposed to be there. Parents are not authorized to roam around randomly at any school in the nation without prior authorization from the office.
And when he was told multiple times to stop ... but kept doing it ... oh, thats okay right? Because its on a building paid for by public funds, anyone can use that power.
Shit, why do I even pay my own electric bill. I'm right next door to a school, a few hundred feet of good quality wire and I can just use all the free public electricity I want, right? I mean thats what you're saying, right? Its perfectly acceptable for all of us to hook up to those outlets and then bitch when they blow and demand better service ... right?
God you're a moron.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
Those people aren't homeless, begging is their job. $50 says they go home to a nicer house than you do.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
We do know. Its in the article. He was told multiple times he wasn't allowed to do that.
There is no 'may' to it, you're just making shit up because you're too lazy to find out what actually happened.
The 'facts we don't know' are in the 'article you didn't bother to read'
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
Personally, I am perfectly ok with setting the precedent that if you put something that looks like a service out in public with no control over it whatsoever, you are giving them implicit license to use it.
In our state, access to a public or private school is legally restricted.
You must have a legitimate reason for being on the grounds. You will not be allowed to roam about freely. You will not be allowed access to students, staff, facilities or services without explict permission.
What the fuck are you talking about? Watts, and thus kilowatts, are a unit of power. Power is the rate of change of energy over time. The rate of change of time, times the time, is thus energy. kW*h is a unit of energy equal to 3.6MJ. On the other hand, kW/h is the rate of change of power output over time, which is only usable in measuring how rapidly a power plant will ramp up in power output.
While I agree you have the right to tell them to GTFO, I think you're a real jerk for not letting them use a little water.
This is a blatant example of how stupid people are getting day by day. Morons makes a big deal out of simple issue, I can sense authority abuse here when for something as minor (which would eat way too much tax payer's money into processing such a minor offense), Probably the cop was a jerk who wanted to show he had authority. Secondly, the entire population just stays silent and assumes it is normal that huge sums of money are being stolen by politics, fake contracts etc.. no news is made out of such major issues. It is pretty laughable at how humans have become like sheeps, feeling powerless against bigger issues and bike shedding over minor issues.
you have to clamp down on this or else people with these cars would be charging their vehicles for "free" wherever they can find an outlet... I would also include recharging electric bicyles here but not include recharging items such as the light sets for bicycles as they're a safety item.
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
At my work, the security guards found a Chevy Volt plugged into an outlet in the parking garage during the work-day. Back of the envelope calculation is the car sucked up about $1.50 in electricity. Security did an email blast (including a photo of the verboten electrical hook-up) to the site's entire workforce, chastening us to not do this, with warnings about violations of federal law and such. Based on the rate at which my time gets billed, they were already well in the red just from me reading the email, to say nothing of the time someone spent taking the photo, composing the email, or the several thousand of my contractor co-workers who undoubtedly also read it. If the local district attorney has even two active brain cells, he's not going to actually pursue this case. Ignoring the PR nightmare, the costs to pursue the case, relative to the financial loss incurred, aren't even close.
Bottom line: You want random people to not use the electricity you pay for? Don't fucking put outlets outside where random people can access them.
Case law sits at odds with that.
There's also the concept of risk vs reward. If the risk for committing a grave offense is too low, then the penalty when caught usually rises. So long as it doesn't become cruel and unusual the constitution doesn't have a problem with it.
As for this, who really cares about 5 cents? Sure the cop can issue a ticket if it is against the law, but you also need to find a prosecutor willing to prosecute it, and assuming can find that, then find a judge who won't throw it out when presented with the reasonable person standard, i.e. a reasonable person wouldn't assume there to be a crime in plugging in anything for a brief period of time.
Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
1KW/h
Impressive. That's approximately -4018267F*W/year.
It's not meaningless. It's a rate of change, just like m/s^2. As such, the car should pop the breaker somewhere around 108 or 144 minutes of charging, depending on whether the outlet is a 15A or 20A outlet, and assuming the line voltage is a solid 120V. 108 minutes is the point when the power draw would reach 1800W and at 144 minutes, it should hit 2400W, which, at 120V are 15A and 20A respectively, assuming that there is no reactive power involved.
www.wavefront-av.com
> You have a strange viewpoint. I don't share your viewpoint.
Let me try to elaborate just a bit that might help then.... I don't really think its ok to steal power, water or anything. However, I do think people can be a bit mindless, and not think, and make assumptions and do small, mostly inconsequential stupid things.
So...I think the state probably can and should step in for many issues of theft, but, really should have some sort of thresholds to determine where they will or wont: and people have a responsibility to try to not create situations that will result in them relying on the state to come in and solve their problem for them.
For example... if you put a power outlet, on the edge of your property, by the street, or by where public people park cars, or wait for the bus. That is your right. If you add no signage, make no attempt to hide it, or switch it, or otherwise control it.... you are not doing that. If someone steals a significant amount from you, sure, the state should still deal with a problem like that, but, for really small infractions, you didn't live up to your end of being responsible enough to deserve someone else coming in and fixing it for you.
If someone clearly ignored a posted sign, if they came into your property in a more than superficial manner, if they circumvented some access control...sure. But....if you just put a fountain or outlet there where any schmuck with a phone charger could plug in.
Its not that its right for people to do it.... its that you could easily prevent it without the states help, and chose not to, and yet, want them to step in at great expense to everyone else and waste resources arresting and charging people over something so small.
Its not the states job to agressively deal with everything that is unfair no matter how insignificant. Frankly, if this is the best they have, its an argument for downsizing the legal system.
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
It is possible, that negligence — causing bad things to happen without any intent — should be punished. But, in your example, the charges brought up against such parents currently are murder (or involuntary homicide, whatever the fine distinction), when it should be just that — negligence.
No, the charge is criminal negligence, and often comes with manslaughter tacked on. To be charged with murder, there has to be intent and/or premeditation.
So, basically, your argument is based on ignorance of existing law. I'd suggest you brush up before commenting on such topics next time.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
While I agree you have the right to post the above rant, I think you're a real jerk. :)
Essentially this.
All it took was a school official walking out and saying "Please don't use our power".
Bad neighborhood, then have your security guard do it.
Can nobody use common sense anymore?
I'm guessing the car owner did something that pissed off the cop, whether right or wrong, and the cop got back at him.
oh i was just gonna pull up to your garage at your home and do it so as not to inconvenience you too much, while i am at it can i take 10cents of the internet wifi and 10 cents of power from you to for that hour... :)
"not the whole tank" that's a nice assumption either way.
yup i could be arrested for just loitering around your car, especially if i am black, yay Rosa, thanks for ending racism (but that's another rant)
I was all for it until you mentioned his dinner. At that point a line was crossed!
This guy does nothing to deserve our sympathy. He was on the school grounds, using the school's tennis courts after being specifically told he did not have permission to be there. Then he decides it's a good idea to plug into the school's electricity to get a free charge for his car. What kind of thinking allows him to do that? And when he's called on it, he gives the cop grief.
He knew exactly what he was doing, and he knew he had no right to that electricity. We only have his word for it that it was only 20mins charge. He could have been doing this every day for weeks. Anything that happened to him is a result of him purposely being a dick.
I see, so this is only a theft because of the quantity, and I'm a moron for not realizing it.
Or, as other posters state, all theft is theft, and quantity is irrelevant, and I should realize that.
The point is that there's no clear line about what assumptions are common when it comes to an exterior outlet in a public space. I haven't seen anything that clears up whether this outlet was for the use of students or faculty for personal electronics, or not - though that may be due to my lack of literacy. Originally, it appeared that he was the parent of a student on premises at the time, which makes it all a bit gray, in my moronic, non-knee jerk perspective.
Thanks for the lack of toxic communication though. It's nice when we can talk things through as a community without resorting to the greater fuckwad hypothesis.
Getting diabetes AND salmonella would be a bad weekend.
Case law sits at odds with that.
I don't care what case law sits at odds with.
If the risk for committing a grave offense is too low, then the penalty when caught usually rises.
As I said, justice > security, just like freedom > security. I'm opposed to the TSA, just as I'm opposed to this garbage of punishing someone more severely merely because it's difficult to catch people who do that crime.
He didn't really get in trouble for stealing the electricity, he got in trouble for being a jerk to a cop. He could totally have gotten off with a warning if he'd only been nice about it.
The isiot cop doesn't even know the law. There are NO LAWS on the books about plugging anything whatsoever into any outlet anywhere.. and no... i can't give a citation for something that doies not exist. The judge should throw the book at that cop for wasting the system's time and money. Hiope he gets canned..
A publicly accessible outlet is an invitation to be used by the public.
The tendency for simply INSANE Americans to declare anyone and everyone possible a "thief", for the primary purpose of somehow elevating themselves, is INSANE. And many of us are tire of your brand of self righteous, indignant cray cray.
If you're going to charge him then everyone plugging in a tablet, phone, whatever needs to be charged. Fill those jails up, create plenty of criminal records, keep the courts busy.
Asshole.
Or make these outlets metered -- put in a dime, draw up to 1KW of electricity, for ANY purpose.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
In the article:
Given the uncooperative attitude and accusations of damage to his vehicle, the officer chose to document the incident on an incident report.
If he had said 'yes sir, sorry sir', nothing had happend. So the officer wanted to teach him a lesson. Look likes it backfired.
Look it up if the translation isn't obvious.
Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
Next up: Electricity companies invent DRM based electrons. "Without our spin verification, your wheels won't"
Koch blocking?
Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
As if anyone whose cell phone was dying and had a charger would think twice about just plugging that in.
Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
I bet Dad could have just parked his big old diesel pickemup truck under an open window and left the motor running the whole half hour giving everyone in school a nice dose of heavy metal particulates soaked in carcinogens, and Mr. Liberals-feel-entitled here would feel compelled to defend that due to his good libertarian principles.
Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
No, this just sets the precedent that outlets are not invitations to charge devices unless they are clearly marked for that use. It is simple courtesy that if someone puts out a bushel of apples with a sign that says "Free, take one", then you take one. Not two, not ten. RTFM
"There is no god but allah" - well, they got it half right.
Lockable outdoor outlets have been available for decades.
In fact, that little datum will in many cases prevent various corporations from ever hiring him if he ever desires to take employment with them. Frankly,that officer showed extreme lack of judgement and at the very least ought to be reprimanded.
No, that sounds more like an extreme lack of judgement on the part of the corporations.
Do we need sings on each outlet
I've always thought that if law enforcement needed one more thing to help it, it's musicals. The question is whether informative music or annoying music are more of a deterrent.
No matter how you pronounce it, nor what scripts you reference, it's still gigawatts.
It wasn't until recently that I realised why this goes on in America. A friend pointed out the sheer stupidity of some of the arrests happening in USA is an extension of a money making racket the cops have (and given that most prisons over there are privately owned, I'm sure some of those arrests also come with "perks").
So, the cops arrest someone for stealing some electricity, and if they get a fine, they get more funding. I'm pretty sure there's a lot of truth in that statement.
Not necessarily. It sounds like he had been told by school officials not to charge his car there on multiple occasions. Yes, in any given instance the theft is small, but the cumulative annual cost of a single outlet being regularly used for charging could easily reach the $1000 range. If precedent is established that people are free to charge their cars from courtesy outlets provided with portable electronics in mind you can be pretty sure that most such EV accessible courtesy outlets will be removed. Is that really a desirable outcome?
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Post your bank account details here, I and everyone else will promise not to with draw more then 5 cents a day, each and every day, everyone one of us.
The guy in the story was an asshole repeatedly trying to charge his car for free. He didn't do it just once because his car ran down, he did it as a matter of routine. His mentality is the reason everything has to be locked up and nailed down. Because if not everything is behind lock and key some asswipe will abuse it.
Thanks to this guy, if your electric car happens to run down, you won't find any socket available you can ask permission to use because now everyone will put a lock on the socket and have "regulations" to deal with this. All because this asshole was to cheap to charge his car at home.
There is only one asshole here. No wait, there is the asshole from the story and you for thinking his repeated actions are okay. Or did you not read the story?
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
So simple yet "TheCarp" just doesn't get it. Ten to one HE is an asshole to who takes everything he can get.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
You keep argueing your point even when a normal person would have realized by now he had none.
The socket was made available to VISITORS of the school to charge LAPTOPS. NOT for outsiders to charge their car.
THE VERY fact that you need a switch inside the house shows you how vile your world view is. If people just kept their paws of other peoples property you wouldn't need the switch. AND then, if someone's car ran down, saw your socket, they could charge their car, put a tenner in your mailbox with a thank you note and drive home.
Which is the better world to live in? Yours or mine? Yours were everything needs a lock or mine were you can trust people not to abuse everything?
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
And I think the guy was in the wrong. He can easily charge his car at home like everyone else. I just think this AC doesn't know what socialism and communism really means. It most certainly does NOT mean, grab whatever you can from public resources. Rather the opposite in fact.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Farmers know this, every gone past a field of corn and seen sign declaring the corn not to be fit for human consumption? It is not because 1 person stealing corn does so much damage, but a 100 people? And not all of them will take just 1 corn or care about how they trample a dozen stalks to get the one they want.
In my youth if you were to late at the station to buy a ticket, you could buy one in the train, no problem all part of the service. Assholes like in this story ruined that because they would take a seat and then when checked would say they didn't have time to buy a ticket. Since you are not always checked you could often ride for free. So they changed the law, no more tickets sold by conductors (and fuck you if you are incapable of operating the machine) and a standard fine of 35 euro's no matter what. ALL because SOME assholes abused the system.
My 15kg foldable bike has 5kg of locks on it, because some people just can't keep their paws to themselves.
It is NOT about ONE guy stealing 5 cents of current, it is about the idea of taking something that doesn't belong to you.
Do you own a petrol car? Is there a lock on petrol cap? There didn't use to be one. Used to be it was just a ordinary cap anyone could open. Then assholes started to siphon gas wherever they could and locks became after market essentials and finally standard issue.
This kind of issue is nothing new, as said, farmers know it well, from corn to apples. 1 thief is not so bad, a thousand, and you got nothing left. If you cycle a lot, you will know that SOME people will put a tap out on hot days for passerby's to cool off and refill their water bottles. This usually lasts UNTIL an asshole comes by and totally abuses the situation by leaving a mess.
The person from the story is described as a habitual offender, he didn't just run out of power and decided to recharge his car without asking from a public socket, he does it as a matter of routine while he has no reason to assume it is okay. He is an asshole who takes and gives nothing.
If he walked into the office and made a single copy each day, would people claim that was okay? If he walked into the school to take a dump each day without asking, would that be acceptable?
And ten to one all the libertards defending this guy would shoot you in the face for daring to read a map by the light streaming out of their house.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.