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EBay Pulls MS Auctions, Neutralizes Complaints
(Boy, a ten-day-old story. I need to start reading kuro5hin more often.)
Anyway, I know from experience that my chances of getting through to a real eBay person are approximately nil, especially on Memorial Day, so I'm not even going to try. Here are the questions I'd like to ask, and if some eBay staffer would like to answer them, feel free.
1. Regarding "VeRO," the Verified Rights Owner Program. Comments from sellers who have had their auctions yanked include:
- "I own this software. It is mine to sell."
- "Ended my perfectly legit sale."
- "I was forced to buy it from Dell, I should be able to sell it. www.linux.org"
- "I have the right to sell the Windows 98 I BOUGHT.. this is BULL SHIT....."
- "ended 2 of my legit auctions. won't respond to emails."
- "Legit auction canceled."
- "MS & Ebay Cancelled my perfectly legit auction."
- "copyright violation - on unopened retail box!"
These are not spurious complaints; they come from over a hundred eBay sellers with positive feedback ratings like 40, 253, even 476! Clearly these people are not scammers, they are legitimate and frequent eBay sellers who know the rules and who feel angry that they've been ripped off.
It is already apparent that eBay is ending perfectly legal auctions of E-Meters based on illogical and unfounded claims of copyright violation from the Church of Scientology. So "Verified Rights" doesn't mean much.
Can anyone at eBay confirm that each and every software auction terminated by Microsoft was illegal? And if not, shouldn't VeRO be renamed the "Unverified Rights Owner Program"?
2. EBay claims that, upon receiving VeRO complaints, it "reviews the reported items and, unless there is an obvious error, ends the auction." Were any of Microsoft's reports so reviewed, or were the auctions just immediately terminated?
3. Where on Questionable Items: Software is it indicated that software, unopened in the box, purchased at retail, cannot be resold?
4. Has Microsoft invoked a particular law - UCITA would be an obvious guess - in terminating these auctions? Or has it pointed to its license agreements (which for many of these auctions, apparently, would not apply)?
5. EBay's page about removing feedback doesn't mention cancelling rating of feedback, which is obviously a very important part. Isn't that misleading?
6. What did Microsoft do to get this special favor done for them - neutralization of their negative feedback? Does eBay do this for all their VeRO program members, or just Microsoft?
Update, 25 minutes later: gehrehmee pointed out Microsoft's internet piracy webpage (the URL got chopped, but deserves to be seen). Scroll to the bottom to read (emphasis added):
Microsoft and eBay have initiated an aggressive program to stop auction sites that Microsoft believes may be distributing infringing product. Microsoft monitors all auction sites and conducts daily searches to identify auctions suspected of offering counterfeit or infringing software. The company notifies eBay of suspect auctions and asks them to terminate the auctions within 24 hours.
Phrases like "due process" and "guilty until proven innocent" are coming to mind.
We have the right to sell our LEGAL crappy software!
I know people who have paid a good amount of money for rare CDs on E-bay only to find them delivered as CD-Rs that someone burned in their basement. I suspect that software auctions are plagued with the same problem. Eliot J. Haquer burns copies of Windows 98 in his basement, and auctions them on E-bay. People call Microsoft for Tech. Support, and run into all the usual licensed software problems. This is microsoft trying to cover their tech support asses. How long should Microsoft be expected to wait to determine if a Win2K cd is legit? Howdoes the average comnsumer recoup their loss after buying pirated merchandise?
How's my programming? Call 1-800-DEV-NULL
BBB Complaint line
-- Speak up and be heard! or shutup and live with it.
Warning sign #1 that Microsoft believes an auction is counterfeit: It is selling for less than Microsoft Suggested Retail Price. As eBay knows, when Microsoft suggests something, you best better listen.
There are a couple of legitimate reasons both MS and the OEM do not want you distributing their CD's. For one thing, a lot of OEM CD's contain drivers and code that are specific to that manufacturer, and are designed to boot from CD and reinstall the complete system, settings and all. I believe Compaq sets up their "quick restore" CD's to do this. Now, while you may be able to use this CD to replace system files during a "Copying Files" window on a whitebox, they aren't made to install from scratch on anything other than the system they were made for. Most end users would rather just by the full retail or upgrade than try to get the OEM version working on a different computer.
From MS's side they also provide those OEM licenses at a discount in a lot of cases. Shitty yes, but it makes sense that they don't want those just floating around in the world when they can make much more money directly by selling the Retail boxes as the poster above said.
Maybe it's time to end the legal fiction of corporations. I (for one) think that the executives should have unlimited personal liability for these actions.
Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
In this case the poster goes to a lot of trouble to point out a bunch of things that people are free to do, but he conveniently leaves out
- slashdot and slashdotters are free to complain about whatever they want to, also
which of course takes us full circle back to where we started before that post which would indicate that it was a NOP.They are 'defending' their copyright and property rights (although I think it's on rather shaky ground, their reasoning I mean). They have to do this sort of thing as part of maintaining their copyright.
no, what the hell is wrong with you? All IP is not the same, trademarks need to be defended, copyright does not, and patents do not.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
A. Make money (always important)
B. Allow freedom to sell what we legally have a right to sell
C. Give us an auction site superior to all else
D. Send a nice message to EBay, MS, etc, not to mention the media... besides, whoever were to set it up could use whatever open software and standard hardware they wished and set a great example for the world of auction sites.
Would this really be so difficult? I'm really just waiting for SOMEONE to do it.
- ----------------
-----------------------------------------------
Everybody's got something to hide except for me and my monkey...
-------------------------------------------------
Everybody's got something to hi
This reminds me of the articles in the Weekly World News were some raving "feminist" (made up, I pray) vehemently argues that "most rapes aren't reported, all men are rapists, let's lock up EVERY MAN for a full week each year as punishment for unreported rapes they commited."
If someone knowingly sells counterfeit software in an auction, throw the book at them. Criminal prosecution, revocation of eBay account, etc. If they honestly acquired the counterfeit software, throw the book at the company that sold them the counterfeit software. (E.g., they got it with their Discount Dave's system - throw Dave in the slammer!)
But DON'T punish people because they *might* be commiting a crime. And don't tempt the Gods by demanding punishment for people who *might* have commited a crime when you yourself have been convicted of a federal felony and are in the penalty phase of the trial!
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
Sorry-- I've been away; I'm catching up on back email right now. You did email me about it didn't you? :-)
--
There is no K5 cabal.
I am not the real rusty.
This guy is not selling the software, it's a scam - He will send you a two page document on how if you go to a Technet briefing or other function of M$ that they will hand over software. This was found to be false and Illegal by MS in a previous case. This document suggests Defrauding M$ by impersinating a high powered buyer for a large company as well.
Maybe we should look on the bright side. eBay is preventing one more person from using a god-forsaken, POS OS. Maybe they should get a nice card or something.
</SARCASM>
My
Quux26
My
Quux26
www.crashspace.net
I've often wondered if old software boxes (complete with disks/CDs, manuals, and registeration card) would someday become a collectible. This would make selling them on EBay somewhat lucrative.
Look at what else has become collectables--old vinyl audio discs, old cars, books. Why should software be any different? I could see spending a good amount of money personally on something like a mint box of the original Infocom Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy Apple ][ edition--the plastic bag of pocket fluff and the peril sensitive sunglasses would be worth it alone.
I remember in school lugging around an MS-DOS 3.2 manual when I was learning DOS stuff. I'd love to see that old binder manual again.
Of course, Microsoft seems to not want you to be able to trade this old stuff. Or is it they are only concerned about reselling of recent versions of Windows. What about DOS 3.x?
/// Zoid.
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
After they decided that email inviting you to visit their site more often was "administrative", and changed their privacy policy to make it look like everyone had asked to receive email, phone calls, and other contact, I don't think anyone should have expected better of them.
eBay spams. eBay lies. eBay lies about spam, eBay lies about abuse in general.
eBay does not accept complaints about usenet spam or junk email unless the complaints come from registered users - and you can't be registered without giving them, in their opinion, blanket permission to send any email they wish to describe as administrative.
Even if you cancel your account, you may get additional email; I certainly did, as did a number of other people I know.
In other words, no surprise; scum is scum.
My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
statements (which they are free to change anytime)."
Not true. The Terms of Service is a contract. According to contract law, a party must explicitly agree to any modification of the origianl contract. eBay can not arbitrarily change its terms of service.
When crdit cards change their interest rates, they send you a notice notifing you of the change. The notice states that your acceptence of the new terms is to continue to using your credit card. If you do not use the credit card after receiving the notice, you continue to pay the old interest rate.
Many software and internet companies claim that they reserve the right to change the terms of service by merely changing the web page without explicitly notifing you. However, this has not been tested in court. I would think they will have a tough time selling this in court. It seems unreasonable to expect the user to read the terms of service everytime they log onto the network and try to figure out if any thing has changed since the last time.
I feel like picking a fight with everyone who thinks they are right. - Rainmakers
Is likely because there are so many unwanted preload (or bundled) copies of Windows floating around that if people started selling them instead of just shelving them, Microsoft would find they could only sell a third of what they do today...
Just imagine when Microsoft goes to sell their annual copies to Dell and Dell says 'Well, we got this really good deal for 200000 copies of w2k from www.LetsSellIt.com'.
I think this is just Microsoft bullying Ebay into submission like they do everybody else. Personally, I don't think things like this are going to stop unless Microsoft is broken up, which is why I hope Judge Jackson smashes them into so many pieces they won't know what the hell to do. Zach Hartley
User: socketware (18) (not a registered user) Date: Dec-21-99 00:54:41 PST
Praise: Got back to me after ending auction and set things right. Thanks for the help!
User: bobbennett (8) Date: Apr-06-99 13:16:33 PST
Praise: Microsoft pirates their own software, allowing full registration, & upgrades????
User: kluessendorf (265) Date: Mar-25-99 10:26:20 PST
Praise: Cancelled auction on legal retail Windows 98 upgrade with contacting me
User: twinsoft (2748) Date: Mar-22-99 20:53:45 PST
Praise: This is a COMPLAINT! They ended an auction for legal MS software, no explanatio
From this, one can deduce that there were, infact, no positive comments on the action of Microsoft. Just wanted to set the record straight.
Of course, the question then becomes, "What happens if I disassemble/mix-and-match computer parts?" If I buy, for instance, a Dell computer, and then later on I put the monitor on a separate machine, remove the hard disk, take the RAM out for a third system, put the video and ethernet adapters in a new screwdriver machine I'm building...
Where does my license for Windows go? With the processor? The monitor? The hard disk? The RAM? Can I install Windows on any of these machines, because there's at least a piece of the original that can be installed along with Windows?
True enough on most of your points. I did not mean to imply that the readers of /. have any apparent power, but they are very good at winnowing out negative stories concerning the actions of Microsoft. Therefore any such actions are very likely to come to light.
As for piracy, sure, MS has every right to try to halt sales of pirated software, but where does it show that any effort has been made to ascertain that the software being sold is in fact pirated? In this you are correct, it is Ebay that is at fault here, since it appears they simply dumped any sales of MS software as soon as MS requested it.
As for PR, I think MS does have to worry about it. Prior to the MS-DOJ trial, the average person viewed MS as the perfectly ethical giant of the software industry. Apparently many folks were shocked to hear that MS had been accused of questionable business practices and had even violated the law. I think they DO need to worry about public opinion - for the first time the media is now starting to publish articles which are highly critical of MS. The general public may not read /. but they do read ZDnet, Wired, CNN, etc. If MS starts looking less than snow-white to the average user, then other OS options might look more acceptable to those who would not otherwise consider them. Its a small point, but I don't think it should be callously dismissed.
I realize this is a minor issue when compared to the points raised in the DOJ investigation, but MS using its might to restrict users abilities to sell legitimately purchased software on a legitimate exchange is surely indicative of the fact that it has not changed its modus operandi generally. This is the sort of action that I would expect to encounter where MS is concerned. This would seem to bode poorly for MS's ability to police itself were the courts to go with its suggested penalties in the monopoly case, no?
As for your summary, I concede your point, this is probably nothing more than a big corporation trying to fight piracy, and if a few legitimate sales get killed, not giving a damn since it only means that users will have to purchase their software new from MS, and not second hand at a better price. While /. may not have a lot of power on its own (ie none effectively), it does have the power of opinion. More and more news agencies seem to be turning to /. to get the latest news on various issues. At least its appearing as a quoted source more often it seems. Ironic, given that /. in many instances feeds off of news on those same sites.
"The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
I think it would be a good idea to include a templates in Gnutella. These templates should create default directory trees:
...
...
...
...
"music/by genre/rock/mp3s"
"music/by genre/rock/ram"
auctions/computer hardware/
auctions/computer software/
hobbies/interests/books/
Users can then search only in the specific branches of the directory tree. e.g. If I were looking for computer software I'd go to that users "/auctions/computer software" directory.
A standardized directory structure will aid searches. Thus each person's computer becomes his own mp3.com, ebay.com and so on.
It would be a good idea to make the directory structure similar to that of Freenet. So when Freenet is up and running, the migration will be natural.
The company notifies eBay of suspect auctions and asks them to terminate the auctions within 24 hours.
And Microsoft is perfectly allowed to do so.
If all they do is ask politely, that's perfectly legal. I could ask slashdot to remove this story, and that's legally just fine. If for whatever reason, slashdot decides to honor my request, that's their decision.
So, it seems that Ebay is responding to Microsoft's polite requests. The Ebay usage policy probably states that Ebay can pull any auction they want to pull. In that case, there is just about nothing you can do about this. Sorry.
Roger.
The DMCA states that a statement that the information in the notification is accurate, and under penalty of perjury, that the complaining party is authorized to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly infringed must be submitted to EBay.
Seems to me that someone at Microsoft could be found being perjerous. How fun.
You should never, never doubt what nobody is sure about.
You quitting proves that the karma kap worked. The most annoying of the whores shut up. --CmdrTaco
How can Microsoft legally do this? The person who bought the software should be able to sell it. Essentially they're selling the license to use the software on the CD, correct? I don't see the problem that MS does.
Now, about potential remedies - first off there are dozens of eBay look-alikes out there. Yahoo springs to mind. Take your business elsewhere and let msoft@buddy.ebay.com know it. Also, I think it may be possible to trick eBay into tripping over itself: I say everyone takes their old copies of Windows 3.1 and puts them on sale. When MS comes around and tries to remove them, point them to the shrink-wrap license and let 'em know that it is perfectly legal to sell it. Oh, and then sue them, of course.
I would guess that Ebay can't afford to inspect each and every M$ software auction to verify an unopened retail box, or original M$ media. In the interest of not being buried under 100 tons of M$ lawsuit for failing to inspect one illegitamate auction, Ebay is deciding to end all auctions that M$ complains about. It's not fair, but it may be the only choice they have.
Ebay is a business. It's not financially sound for them to do anything besides what they are doing. Now is it right for M$ to put them in this position? Probably not. But somehow I don't see the government doing anything to stop them, and I don't see any private party with the required legal and financial backing to stop them.
If you look more closely at auctions.msn.com, you'll find that MSN does not run its own auctions; rather it is a partner in an auction network where listings appear on multiple sites. I don't think Microsoft would make enough money off of listing fees (if any) to make this a worthwhile strategy.
For more information, click here.
I also sent a note to tips@news.com to see what happens with that as well...
IMO the American government should quit being a bunch of pussies and lay down the law. THEY ARE THE FUCKING GOVERNMENT..THEY RUN THE SHOW... They shouldn't have to go through Justice to prove that microsoft did anything wrong. they should go "We suspect you of doing this and this and this wrong, so we're going to fuck your company up" and microsoft couldn't do shit about it. That will be a lesson to other companies too, "Form a monopoly if you like, but only if you want to die." Forget equal rights for something that is so powerful, they obviously do not want to be treated equally so they shouldn't be. They have shown that they do not care for the law, why should they be given the liberty to argue their case in court? Just my two cents.
I remember when this all started. When Microsoft released Office 2000, they were ready to deal with eBay. Auctions started being canceled in the truck-loads.
Microsoft realized that people had been selling full versions of their software on eBay at significantly reduced prices. These are those full versions of Windows and Office that say "For distribution with a new PC only." In other words, not for resale. Why not for resale to the public? Because Microsoft does not want you finding out that companies like Dell, HP, Compaq, and even little system assembly companies get massive discounts when they buy Microsoft software in bulk. When I say massive, I speak of 50% or more off.
It is not just system assemblers that can get these discounts either. If you are a company and want to buy 100 copies of MS Office 2000, you can get full versions at those huge discounts. This is what people have been doing -- buying in bulk and then redistributing.
They stamp, "not for resale," and make huge profits off of you and me.
The end of it is that you either have to pay Microsoft an absurd price for their software in store, or buy a whole new PC. For those of us who assemble our own systems, this is not at all practical.
I personally bought both my copies of MS Windows 95 "B", and Windows 98 SE from eBay type sellers, as well as MS Office 2000 Pro. At the time I bought it, MS Office Professional cost something like $750 in stores for the full version. The "Not for resale." version cost me $200. I simply had to buy it off of eBay from someone's website.
Microsoft is keeping the market from setting the prices on their software.
And my Debian linux disks for Sparc and i386, they cost me about 50 cents for each CD, and a little while of download time. Working at a tier one ISP with multiple OC-48s has its advantages. Unfortunately, linux cannot replace my Windows system for its gaming, USB device, and specific application purposes.
In my dialog with a Microsoft representative I had asked "Is there a class action suit that I can join that is related to this?" The reply was "perhaps there is a group of misinformed individuals like yourself that can join together and start one..."
I also posted the entire dialog to Slashdot, but I guess it was not big news back in February.
pronoblem
Hmmmm... so does this mean that I break some mythical Microsoft law by reselling one of my older computers -- including the copies of Microsoft software that came with it? Do I have to sell the machine with a wiped hard drive and no CDs, just to keep Microsoft's anal lawyers happy?
Of course, the Microsoft license agreement (like most, to be fair) says that you only buy the "right to use" the software... you don't actually own the software you pay for, at least in the minds of some sick intellectual property lawyers.
Well, this eBay-MS mess just provides more proof that extreme capitalism has rendered the world nonsensical.
I just checked eBay now, actually, and there are at least a half dozen pulled Neumann auctions.
- A.P.
--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
If you know the license is there, and you bypass it, that means it doesn't apply? So if I don't read the GPL I can do whatever I want to with the Linux Source, right? I never agreed to the license, so it must be true. Just because you bypass something, doesn't make it not exist. I can bypass a no trepassing sign and claim I didn't know about it, but it still exists, and still applies. Same goes for software licenses. Saying otherwise is just plain dumb.
"Information wants to be expensive" - Stewart Brand, the same guy who said "Information wants to be free"
Hello, I am in no way a M$ fan but it is important to remember that you do not OWN M$ software. You are licensed the software, a license in which they control. If they decide they don't want to let auctions happen they can. For example on the OEM License of Windows 95 it specifically states:
Software Transfer.
You may permanently transfer all of your rights under this EULA only as part of a sale or transfer of the COMPUTER, provided you retain no copies, you transfer all of the SOFTWARE product (including all component parts, the media and printed materials, any upgrades, this EULA and, if applicable, the Certificate(s) of Authenticity), and the recipient agrees to the terms of this EULA. If the SOFTWARE PRODUCT is an upgrade, any transfer must include all prioir versions of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT.
Therefore if DELL makes you have the OEM version of Windows then you can not sell it without the Computer you bought from DELL. So Linux.org's was not legitamate for example.
It sucks but it is one of the reasons that Microsoft may be 2 or 3 companies in 18 months. Be happy.
Get your PostgreSQL here: http://www.commandprompt.com/
Three words. First. Sale. Doctrine.
I don't know why... They obviously aren't being observed... Ain't the U.S. legal system great? All you have to do nowadays is threaten a lawsuit, even an unfounded one, and a company will cave in at the expense of users/consumers...
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
http://auctions.msn.com/Scripts/ListingInfo.asp?Lo tNo=12887227&SiteCatNo=
Microsoft's own auction site contains MS products.
And, this auction was posted yesterday..
Reminds me a bit of the Ebay/Auto Dealer fiasco of about a year ago. Apparently, an auto dealer that specialized in unique used vehicles (hearses, etc) developed a "special partnership" with Ebay. The dealer realized that, with an initial feedback rating of "0" it would be difficult to entice prospective buyers to bid on a car worth thousands of dollars. So, in an attempt to circumvent the hurdle, the dealer distributed a memo to Ebay HQ (and/or possibly, to the rest of the dealership staff), encouraging those who were able to pad the dealers feedback rating. Lo and behold, immediately the dealer's feedback rating shot up as the result of numerous glowing "neutral" feedbacks, although he hadn't completed a single auction!
Of course, when a copy of the memo was leaked to Auctionwatch, or some such site, Ebay immediately issued a statement decrying the padded feedback, claiming that it was all the result of an employee at the dealership that didn't understand the "integrity" of the feedback process (conveniently removing the monkey from Ebay's back and placing it on the dealer's)
Ebay's complicity with MS and Scientology is not at all surprising: all three organizations speak the same language.
But Ebay also sells cars, paintings, etc. that cost far more than that... Odd.
That shirt would not infringe on their copyright, however it would infringe on their registered trademarks. I wonder how that would be treated by ebay, though. What if someone was auctioning a Green Jello cd (remember that band? they had to change their name to Green Jelly because of trademark violations) Would Jello (or the company who owns them) be able to have that auction removed merely because the name on the cd violates their trademarks? If so, it's time for ebay to disappear into a cyber-void somewhere.
Tell you what: we come back and everyone's slaughtered...I owe you a coke.
IMHO, the US Govt needs to do one of two things. EITHER, it needs to impose Judge Jackson's rulings with an Executive Order, -OR- it needs to disband and declare Microsoft the new Government.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Seems to me that this "problem" the industry is having with pirated (illegally sold, or whatever) software is here to stay. Rather than having lawsuit over lawsuit over this I believe we should start looking at other ways to deal with this.
The Internet is here to stay, and and with it the possibility for anyone to send anything to anyone else at anytime. You can't stop it. Ever. So LIVE WITH IT!
- Ap
---
Let me see if I get this straight... Microsoft has (in all likelyhood) forced eBay to take agressive measures against the sale of any Microsoft products, because their own research shows that many of those sales are in some way illegal. They seem to bring it like they're concerned about people buying illegal software, and that they're protecting the customers by shutting down illicit sales, but in fact they're shutting down ALL sale of ANY Microsoft product, not even allowing the customers to buy the legal stuff.
Checking the legality of a transfer is, afaik, not up to eBay, let alone up to Microsoft - it's up to the seller and the buyer. On top of that, Microsoft has nothing to say about what is being sold there. While indeed possibly many of those sales do involve illegal or incomplete software, many again do not, and are perfectly legal.
But all that aside, there is nothing we can do. I've never used eBay, but I'm pretty sure they have some sort of agreement by which they're entitled to cancel any auction they see fit. Microsoft is in the clear aswell, for all they really do is express their concern about the possible sale of illegal goods. For fear of law suits, eBay obeys Microsoft's every whim. Nothing wrong there either, just sound corporate strategy. I mean, who wouldn't rattle, shake and grovel when faced with a giant like Microsoft who could squash your business in a heartbeat and then scrape you off its boot?
So legally, there is nothing wrong here. Morally - now there's a totally different story. But then again, what else did you expect from the likes of Microsoft and eBay?
There is however one thing we CAN do. Boycot eBay. But that would also be a bit harsh, imho, because eBay too is simply caught between a rock and a hard place, and both those predicaments are marked with a huge four-coloured flag...
)O(
the Gods have a sense of humour,
Never underestimate the power of stupidity
To err is human, to moo bovine
So what? If someone buys a computer which comes with Windows preloaded, and never agrees to the license they are NOT bound by it. At this point, only standard copyright rules apply.
They can resell it legally. Heck, they can even use it if they can manage to do so without being bound by the license. (a third-party program to finish the installation would work well here)
The license only revokes rights that you automatically have. But buying the machine does not make you accept it. UCITA will change things (for the worse) which is why we have to fight it but no judge nowhere is going to rule that you're bound by a license by opening the box. It's offensive.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
Don't bother with the FTC. Send spams like this to rbl@mail-abuse.org, and see how that goes. :)
My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
you must have gone to eBay by mistake - you wanted evilBay.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
Agreeing to the MS license you give away rights you would otherwise have. Agreeing to the GPL, you gain some additional rights you wouldn't normally have.
Similarly, by default, you have no right to go on private property....
but in the lawyer-happy paradise that is America, why aren't disgruntled sellers sueing eBay and/or MS for defamation of character?
qts
Correct, read the gpl and you'll find that's entirely the idea. You never had the right to distribute the program (due to normal copyright laws). But if you do _choose_ to accept the license, it gives you the right to distribute it, as long as you abide by the rules in the license.
User: pocky220 (73) (not a registered user) Date: Mar-03-00 21:55:59 PST
Neutral: I have the right to sell the Windows 98 I BOUGHT.. this is BULL SHIT............
User: cellar (476) (not a registered user) Date: Mar-03-00 13:38:29 PST
Neutral: Hmmm....Gulty to proven innocent? Microsoft is Un-American...Break them up...
User: ni-dan (45) Date: Mar-02-00 04:54:11 PST
Neutral: NEGATIVE!!! HITLERSOFT ENDS ANOTHER LEGAL AUCTION!!!
User: boatman9 (223) Date: Feb-29-00 19:57:57 PST
Neutral: End my legal auction. Hope Justice Dept. socks it to ya in the Anti-Trust Suit!
User: booktrapper (41) Date: Feb-29-00 01:36:48 PST
Neutral: Why can't you at least inquire about the item? You are only hurting yourselves..
User: jlindsay (92) Date: Feb-24-00 18:20:12 PST
Neutral: 268283455 another auction ended @ the hands of Micro$oft
User: carydixon (29) Date: Feb-24-00 12:12:07 PST
Neutral: I own this software. It is mine to sell. F- - ck you.
User: dbx (19) Date: Feb-23-00 15:13:32 PST
Neutral: Ended my perfectly legit sale.. This is-un american. Guilty.....NOT
User: totaltickets (41) Date: Feb-23-00 13:30:44 PST
Neutral: A STABLE OPERATING SYSTEM IS A NO-WIN(TM) SITUATION - FCUK MICROSOFT
User: bill.p (10) Date: Feb-21-00 18:03:41 PST
Neutral: NEGATIVE: You have blocked legitimate sale of new software and slandered me
User: mikeps (10) Date: Feb-17-00 20:26:11 PST
Neutral: MS killed off my legitimate auction; no wonder so many hate Micro$oft & windoZe
User: pronoblem (271) Date: Feb-16-00 16:04:28 PST
Neutral: I was forced to buy it from Dell, I should be able to sell it. www.linux.org
User: peter0175 (1) Date: Feb-15-00 22:18:55 PST
Neutral: M.S. NAZI -- Ended a TOTAL legit auction. NEGATIVE COMMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
User: kak268 (40) Date: Feb-15-00 22:08:37 PST
Neutral: ended 2 of my legit auctions. won't respond to emails. you suck monkey balls MS!
User: bruce2816 (103) Date: Feb-09-00 21:38:49 PST
Neutral: Emailed my high bidder, told him copyright violation - on unopened retail box!
User: biiin (private) Date: Feb-04-00 20:49:48 PST
Neutral: Ebay was once cool till they became Microsoft B*tches.. Legit auction canceled.
User: jt325i (98) Date: Feb-03-00 17:15:40 PST
Neutral: 25240347Will respect wishes and not relist, however the product was legitimate.
User: chrisandro (56) Date: Feb-02-00 05:03:14 PST
Neutral: Anal Retentive Microsoft wants more money & people to pay retail !!!!!
User: dhacker1 (253) Date: Jan-30-00 10:24:05 PST
Neutral: NEGATIVE! MS & Ebay Cancelled my perfectly legit auction.
User: pb3623 (11) Date: Jan-30-00 06:21:07 PST
Neutral: Anyone want to buy my LEGITIMATE NT 4.0 CD, come to my garage sale.. plain wrong
User: magnacomp (166) Date: Jan-26-00 03:02:48 PST
Neutral: Assumed guilty until proven innocent? This is a blatant constitutional violation
User: andy.888 (14) Date: Jan-17-00 15:00:37 PST
Neutral: die microsoft you suck
User: ratkins@x-networks.net (0) Date: Jan-17-00 10:21:32 PST
Neutral: Greedy 6asterds want you to pay retail! Anti-Trust - I think so!
User: mchstech (18) Date: Jan-14-00 17:10:22 PST
Neutral: Ended my Auction for a perfectly LEGAL copy of MS Publisher 98.
User: recycledelectrons (58) Date: Jan-14-00 15:54:14 PST
Neutral: email me (aba3600@omega.uta.edu) about a class action suit for slander!
What is this guy selling? MSDN advertisements? I could just see some dude paying this guy $2 for this information, and the seller sends him a letter saying, "For $2500, join MSDN and get all this software free."
sup
Ah yes, a building full of lawyers on one side, and a couple hundred users each with their own lawyer and case on the other.
Talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard case.
I just love reading these types of stories about Microsoft. This story, and others brought to light in recent years including (but not limited to the DOJ trial) prove to me that Microsoft truely does believe that it is not subject to the laws that us mere mortals have to obey. Since Bill Gates apparently believes that he is a god, I think he honestly believes that he is able to create his own rules and laws in the USA which will benefit only him. This type of underhanded tactics don't surprise. After all, just because you legally bought something doesn't mean that you should get to have and control it (at least in Microsoft's eyes).
We have bootleg M$oft products everywhere at flee markets for $0.99 each! In addition, we also sell Linux distributions for $0.99each....and they are the only LEGAL piece of software in our Great Country! BWahahahaha(imitating a certain Scientologist in a certain movie...)
Mode (3) smart-aleck mode. Press * to return to main menu.
Remember, the reason a plutocracy works is because money equates to power and votes. As soon as that ceases to be the case, a plutocracy falls apart. Right now, a politician's success is largely based on the size of his campaign fund. But, that doesn't mean we HAVE to vote for him.
Basically, we can either start a revolution within the system now or wait a few years, grab our guns, and do it the old fashioned way. Personally I'm not a big fan of death and destruction, so I'd rather just fix the current system (i.e. getting off our collective butts and doing something).
---
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
MS will abandon a case if it feels that it has to high a chance of losing, or the cost of winning is higher than the gains they will make.
In this case, the actual gains would be fairly small. Ebay comprises a large proportion of the worlds online auction market, so the benefit would be to eliminatea all MS software frm ebay, and the other large auction sites. The overall value of this is not that great even over several years. The probability of winnming is also quite remote. I'm sure they could get a lot of people to swear under oath that they had not opened the box, after which a convincing argument could be made about not being bound by the agreement (sticky label not broken, software obviously not installed), and making parallels between selling a Microsoft CD and selling an audio CD (Okay, so the RIAA probably get upset over that too, but most people consider it to be their right)
My guess is Microsoft is going to claim some line in the EULA that says you cannot resell the item. They all have it. Wasn't it already decided in courts that you agree to the EULA even without reading it? It wouldn't be too far for MS (or any evil corporation) to extend that to, "If you so much as look within 38 feet of this box, you agree to purchase it, use it, and never delete it or give it to anyone. You hear me?" In this age of Intellectual Property (more often little intellect is involved), you are buying a license to use some program. That cardboard box is no longer property, like a shoe or rusty nail.
Combine every store's "If you touch this box, you cannot return it" with this new "There's no way in hell you are ever going to get rid of this" way of thinking (not to mention the "This software in no way implies that it works" craziness), and I can only ask, "Why on Earth buy this crap?" I've seen small businesses spend hundreds or thousands on Windows software, and when someone isn't what they were looking for, what can they do? Just shove it up on a shelf and forget about that $500. Buy a used car from a dealership, if it isn't perfect people come whining back yelling about Lemon Laws. This industry needs a swift kick in the ass, pretty damn soon. Unfortunately, no one cares. Everyone buys a computer from the big companies for thousands and it's filled with "Mama Jo's Blow Your Nose Tutorial for Windows" crap software no one will ever use. We all know how asking them to remove it and refund you works out.
Of course, this reminds me of the days in boy scouts where I would buy some bags of those small candy bars and pawn them to others for like 50 cents when we're trapped in the wilderness. I engaged in this nefarious activity despite each little package saying "Not packaged for individual resale." Boy, I sure had a danger streak in me. Let me tell ya.
Micorsoft is not just trying to prevent piracy here or make examples of their zero tolerance for piracy. I think they're trying to maintain price regulation. They just jump at the opportunity to use a silk screen such as piracy.
I have sold my Windows 2000 Professional on EBAY like a month and a half ago without any problems. I included the SERIAL# which is a white sticker on the top of any retail box. Some dude emailed me and asked me why his auction was cancelled and I asked him if he had that #. If you don't state it, I think your auction is pulled.
What the aggrieved people should do now is file a complaint of some sort against eBay and Microsoft. They could either act separately and each file a complaint in a small claims court or tribunal, or join together for a class action against eBay and Microsoft. eBay does not have enough lawyers to fight a thousand simultaneous small claims suits. That's how you can win against a large corporation: you pull them to the ground with sheer force of numbers.
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
Speaking of which, does anybody know where I could find a variant of UNIX for the TRS-80? Or even if such a thing exists? I'm looking to add a couple points to my hacker purity test score. (for have you ever paged/swapped to a tape drive, and have you ever used two or more OS's on the TRS-80).
Ever get the impression that your life would make a good sitcom?
Ever follow this to its logical conclusion: that your life is a sitcom?
"I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
Plan for Microsoft's sinking:
1- Put a LEGIT RETAIL copy of Microsoft Windows (tm) for sale.
2- Put a price tag of 350 Billion dollars on it
3- Have your wife / dog / so create a separate LEGIT account.
4- Bid on the article.
5- Wait until MS gets the sale cancelled because they claim you're a criminal, and that it's counterfeit software.
6- Sue MS for 350 Billions + damages on loss of business due to slander / illegal monopolistic practices. (Remember, they want to be the ONLY ones selling Windows.)
7- Donate 349.5 Billions to Gnu Foundation, EFF, Debian, and any other charities you care about.
8- Better yet. Purchase Microsoft, open-source all of there product, and donate patents on what they have to public domain.
9- Brush your teeths, go to bed.
These opinions are mine, mine and only mine. If you want to quote me, please at least be decent enough to send me a copy of the article.
Marriage is considered capital punishment for the theft of a goat in some third world countries...
What isn't legal is buying Microsoft Office, installing it on your computer, then selling the discs on eBay. Or ordering the Microsoft 98 upgrade, installing it, then selling it. Thats what they are trying to stop. Its not legal! Sure the software you are selling is a legit copy, but its not legal if its still installed on your computer when you sell it. Now if the package is unopened then they have no right to cancel the auction, but if your selling opened software, then there is no way to prove that you dont have to the program installed on your computer.
User: twinsoft (2748) Date: Mar-22-99 20:53:45 PST Praise: This is a COMPLAINT! They ended an auction for legal MS software, no explanatio User: kluessendorf (265) Date: Mar-25-99 10:26:20 PST Praise: Cancelled auction on legal retail Windows 98 upgrade with contacting me User: bobbennett (8) Date: Apr-06-99 13:16:33 PST Praise: Microsoft pirates their own software, allowing full registration, & upgrades???? Wow, it's nice to know what people consider compliments today. Hey Bill Gates, you're ugly!
Thank you, enjoy the show.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
No, because that software in unopened new OEM software. The ones that you get with your computer has been opened and installed on your computer.
No. That would imply that there's some US federal government other than that created by the constitution which could agree to it.
The constitution *is* the government, in that it creates the thing out of thin air. Originally it didn't include any rights in it at all, because many of the framers felt that 1) no democratic republic would attempt to infringe on human rights 2) if human rights were ennumerated anything that got left out would be fair game, so it was better to not list any at all.
Fortunately there were enough cynical folks to argue against the first. As for the latter, not only are human rights being attacked all the time (including by corporations, but also by governments and individuals) but indeed, rights that aren't specifically ennumerated tend to get ignored. And the rights we do have, which Congress is prohibited from interfering in in big bold letters also tend to get ignored.
(something similar happened with income taxes - they could have maxed out at 10% of income, but it was feared that if a number were given it would actually get that high. now i pay significantly more than that.)
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
"Today fearless government agents, under expert leadership from BillG himself, stormed a factory dedicated to the eradication of the American Way!
I used to work for a computer store, and we would regularly get crap like this from Microsoft. The letters basically read "You sell computers so we think you're already a bunch of thieves, here's a bunch of people we sued this week."
The letters were grossly insulting and a pretty shitty way to treat your own retailers.
From Ebay itself
3.4 Information Control. We do not control the information provided by other users which is made available through our system. You may find other user's information to be offensive, harmful, inaccurate, or deceptive. Please use caution, common sense, and practice safe trading when using our site. Please note that there are also risks of dealing with foreign nationals, underage persons or people acting under false pretense.
https://www.ftc.gov/ftc/complaint.htm
We just need to complain to the right place. The FTC has a complaint form and I'm sure if enough people complain something might evne gat looked at.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
So, all the French would need to do to get their way is to buy up some small company and have it trademark the Svastika...
Right, that would indeed be a little harsh, if eBay was a sentient individual. But in reality it is just a faceless corporation. Those corporations don't think in terms of morally wrong or right, but rather in terms of fiduciary responsibility to their shareholder and in terms of risk avoidance. Any action that would make shutting down the M$ auctions more risky would push them in the right direction. And a boycott is just such an action. Whether eBay acted on its own initiative or was pressured by Microsoft is irrelevant here.
Remember: we are dealing with faceless, mechanical, non-sentient corporations here, not with individuals. You might object and point out that a company is just a collection of individuals. However, none of them will be harmed personnally: If eBay sinks, its employees will find good jobs elsewhere almost immediately, with the great job market that we have now. The CEO and other top executives have their golden parachutes. And the shareholders knew the risks they were taking (if they did their due diligence). After all, us penguinistas are not whining over Corel's share price decline either: we knew the risks and lost.
5.5 Manipulation. Neither bidders nor sellers may manipulate the price of any item nor may you interfere with other user's listings or auctions
Use Yahoo.
They even have a category for Microsoft Products
--
-- The Brory Stool Co.: We accidentally the best stools from behind seven proxies, since 2009.
There are other auction services out there, you know.
Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage
eBay is a business and people that use their services need to know that they can count on the ratings system. If eBay fudges their ratings system for one group, who's to say they won't do it for others?
While I wish I could sell my unwanted software as well, unfortunately software is a product you could continue to use even after you sold it since you could have made a copy left it on your HD as well. I think Software vendors are overly paranoid about this and then they wonder why no one is willing to shell out more than $39.95 for a piece of software :)
Another possible point is that Microsoft may have have a no resale clause in their EULA.
This is irrelevant if the box has not been opened. IANAL, but I understand that EULA's cannot stand up in court if you have never opened the box and have never been given an opportunity to read them. Even if you have read the EULA, if you have disagreed with the EULA, have never installed the software and can prove it, the EULA may still be unenforceable in a court. If EULA's were on firm ground legally, then why did Microsoft find it necessary to lobby for UTICA?
Oh, and one more thing on this: if Microsoft are asking eBay to pull Microsoft items that are being auctioned off the eBay website, and Microsoft have an auction website that allows users to sell Microsoft products (which they do: check out http://auctions.msn.com), then are Microsoft guilty of anticompetitive behaviour yet again?
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
I was reading in the safe harbor section of eBay. and it seems that if you put a disclaimer that says that a user cannot bid on you auction.. and they bid, and you warn them not to.. they're booted.... dunno if this applies to the god-like user of msoft@buddy.ebay.com but hey! anyone wanna try? "Persisting to bid on a seller's items despite a warning from the seller that bids are not welcome - Sellers have every right to reject bids. In order for eBay to take action, a copy of the email warning from the seller with the subject line must be sent to Investigations. If the bidder bids after this warning, eBay will suspend the bidder. "
Phrases like "due process" and "guilty until proven innocent" are coming to mind.
Phrases like "America isn't the center of the world" and "Legal systems vary by nation" are coming to mind.
>Somebody had to start every religion at some point in time. Why should only the really old one's be protected? Just because they were invented a long time ago?
The copyright has expired on the really old ones.
Christianity: copyright expired
Scientology: copyrighted (probably trademarked and patented too..)
//rdj
No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
--Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
Sadly....
**Life is too short to be serious**
This is sad. Over the year, if you had to add it all up, how much money have you personally commited to micros~1 ?
___
http://www.help.com/cgi-perl/question/5/224/504?si dx=1415190&from=http: //www.help.com&tag=st.cn.sr.hp.1
Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage
I believe 'due process' only applies to disputes between a citizen and the government, not between private parties. Ebay is already rich, what need do they have to change? Do all businesses go bad after reaching a certain size...or is it just when MS takes notice?
Often wrong but never in doubt.
I am Jack9.
Often wrong but never in doubt.
I am Jack9.
Everyone knows me.
There's plenty of microphones up for auction on eBay right now and it's been that way for a while.
Neumann has no problems at all with people selling their microphones. In fact, you can go to the Neumann web site and post to their message board the serial number of an old Neumann microphone you are considering purchasing, and they will respond (publically) with the date of sale and who they sold it to (and any other information about the microphone they may have on file). Also, their engineers frequently give advice on how to evaluate an old condenser mic you are considering purchasing.
Go to this message where Stephan Peus, Neumann Director of Development, tells someone when each of two microphones they are considering purchasing were sold. Looks like they are pretty supportive of people buying their old microphones...
Neumann is quite proud of the fact that their microphones are so well made as to be useful and valuable even 50 years after manufacture. They don't do anything to impede this as it would reflect negatively an their well deserved reputation. The community that buys and uses these types of microphones is very small (professional recording engineers, artists, and specialist dealers) and Neumann knows it. They wouldn't piss those people off.
The ONLY time I have seen listings for Neumann mics pulled on eBay is because the lister broke other eBay rules such as adding to their listing discription ads with prices for other items that aren't being auctioned on eBay.
Burris
It's funny you should mention the selling of controversial items. I once wrote a satirical letter to eBay asking them to ban the sale of all German WW2 medals and uniforms. Some paper pusher took my note seriously and replied with a typically corporate letter about eBay supporting the standard diversity party line.
Lo and behold, a few months later a story on (I think) wired.com came out about how organized whine groups were seriously asking them to ban the sale of "hate materials". I almost spit my orange juice on the keyboard laughing.
eBay used to be a good place to sell things. They even allowed FFL firearms sales before the men in black uniforms (i.e. BATF) issued threatening opinions about the legality of such sales.
Now, in my opinion, eBay is slowly turning into the "AOL of online auction sites". It will soon be a safe, cuddly site on which the Sheeple can buy and trade Pokemon cards, antique knitting needles and commemorative Elvis plates without the danger of viewing "socially awkward" items.
To be fair, I have sold a few things on eBay in the past. But I cancelled my account when they banned firearms sales. Although I'm not a gun owner, I don't support the restraint of legal commerce or civil rights for legalistic reasons. eBay can kow-tow to the government with someone else's money.
Auctioning off an Evil Thing!
It's certainly no surprise to me that something like this happened, but before you go crucifying eBay, think about the position they are in. Microsoft doesn't like this - so they threaten eBay with their buildings full of IP lawyers. eBay, threatened with a lawsuit which will certainly make it to court, simply takes the path of least resistance. Not Admirable, but practical. Not all companies have the resources to deal with high-pressure/publicity lawsuits.
I hate to be defending the bad guys here, but I think eBay may have a leg to stand on regarding changing the negative feedback to neutral. I believe that feedback that actually counts toward your total can only be left by the seller or winning bidder in an auction. Check here for starters. It's not as specific as I thought it was, but it does point out that only the winning bidder can leave feedback... presumably feedback that counts. So the people leaving negative feedback against MS weren't directly involved (as buyer or seller) in an auction with them, hence their feedback could only be entered as neutral.
It's a good thing for Microsoft, too. Ac cording to eBay, when your rating goes below -4, you can get your account pulled. Ah well.
Somebody had to start every religion at some point in time. Why should only the really old one's be protected? Just because they were invented a long time ago? Hardly a good or fair reason.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
I'm generally a Microsoft supporter but this move makes no sense to me. Why cancel legit auctions? (I'd understand if these were cd-r copies of Microsoft products, but they appear legit?) It's dissapointing that Ebay took such a step and changed the feedback to neutral (Some were apparently even changed to positive) I'm disgusted by the actions of both companies.
Phrases like "due process" and "guilty until proven innocent" are coming to mind.
Due process and guilty until proven innocent only apply to the government, not to private companies.
EBay can do whatever they want to their site.
For a bunch of people who claim to love "freedom" as in "free" software, you people sure love to give other people and companies a bunch of shit when they do something you disagree with...
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
>Ever read a software license agreement?
Ah.. you mean the click-through one, which hasn't been clicked since it's still in a sealed box? The one that hasn't been agreed too?
//rdj
No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
--Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
I have a BOX copy of IBM DOS 1.1 with origional manual/disk
Granted it came with a system, but it was made by Microsoft. Will they stop me?
But what if you buy a new machine, and you never boot the preinstalled OS? Like, if you blow away all the partitions and install Linux or something? I don't know if they could claim you are bound by their agreement then, if you never used their product or opened the packaging for the preinstalled OS.
Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
Max: "I'd be peeing my pants if I wore any!"
I'm not going to comment on the messing with feedback, but the yanking of auctions conforms to the policy Jamie referenced. If you look at the questionable items page, it states that any software on a CD cannot be auctioned unless you hold the copyright. They claim that this policy has been in place since 1999; can't verify that either way.
In any case, they've specifically said they're arbitrarily disallowing software CD sales because it's a bitch to sort pirates and OEM copies from legit sales. It's arbitrary and maybe unfair, but it shouldn't engender shock.
My guess would be that these items were gray-market items not intended to be sold in the USofA, or not purchased through the proper distribution channels in the USofA.
Audio manufacturers are some of the screwiest in this regard. I used to sell large quantities of a certain manufacturer's reel-to-reel machine to broadcasters and installers around the country. We had to open every one of the first and take out the "Win a free t-shirt for registering" crap, so that the machines wouldn't get traced back to us. And see were sell legitimate US-destined machines that we paid full dealer cost for. Wierd friggin' crap, that was.
I'll bet quite a few PlaystationII (or whatever the new one's called) auctions were deleted also.
--
NetInfo connection failed for server 127.0.0.1/local
They better not ban my sale of demon-summoning paraphenalia - I'll sue for violation of my civil rights to peaceful exercise of my religion!
Well, maybe the *demon-summoning paraphenalia will have to go - they do tend to get wild, although in a college town who can tell? - but the pentagram is entitled to precisely as much legal protection as the bibles. A quick check shows _2971_ items matching the search word "bible," so they can't claim that they ban all auctions of religious articles.
But what happens when my girlfriend, a defrocked nun, attempts to sell her old paraphenalia? Is the mummified toe of a saint religious paraphenalia, or a mere human body part?
(To be fair, eBay shows 247 items matching "pentagram", 335 items matching "satan", and a bit more seriously 908 items matching Wicca, 1349 matching Buddha, yet only 242 items matching Baptist. They haven't been totally taken over by the crazies, yet, but have clearly let specific controversies lead their policy decisions and are establishing bad precedences.)
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
Not sure who's palm they greased for this but there treading on pretty thin ice. One of the few doctrens of U.S. copyright law that actualy works to protect a consumers rights is First Sale.
As long as I include the entire package that I origanaly payed for I have the right too sell it to who ever I wish and the manufacturur has nothing to say about it. Be it a book, a CD or a piece of software (whatever there licence agreements say, they've been chucked out of court to many times to count) it is a protected right for me to transfer my licence to whom ever I wish without consulting the copyright holder or providing them with a royalty. They have rights to the profits from First Sale and nothing more.
--
"The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it."
-John Gilmore
Perhaps EBay should institute an 'escrow' type system, in which they can hold the money and software, if the software is legal, then continue the transaction; otherwise, return to sender..
If all else, fails, call 1-800-RULEGIT, turn in EBay...
Not to mention this page which says all of the following are copyright violations. http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/png-games.htm l
Mod Chips
Gameboy, NES, Super NES, and N64 emulators.
simply making backups of Sega games infringes on their property
selling imported dreamcasts
even encouraging the use of an import adaptor on a dreamcast is an infringement. What happened to free speech?
Does eBay even consult their lawyers, or do their webdesigners use monkeys on typewriters for their content?
uSoft must feel threatened by the sale of its used software by private parties. I know of no other vendor that aggressively tries to bully normal people into not selling their used software. its sad and sick that uSoft has to have every last penny; deserved or not.
I guess if you're the 500lb gorilla, you can buy your own way and make things fair. you listening to this, US courts???
so in protest of this whole stinking matter, I hereby publicly announce and commit that I'll ONLY buy used uSoft software - if I ever have to buy that crap, at all.
--
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Everytime I turn around now it seems that I'm reading another article about how Micro$haft is stepping all over it's dick, defending its property rights. Here's the big clue: Don't buy their products. If you can do without Win95, Win98, NT, 2000, CE, 3.1, whatever piece of software they're marketing or find another operating system to replace its functionality, by all means, stop buying it. As omnipresent as they are in the marketplace now, it can't last forever.
You have the good press, you have the servers, you have the knowledge, and Ghu only knows there's a lot of Microshaft software out there that people don't want :)
:v)
Vik
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=bo ycotts!
/.-ers to foget about all boycotts they decide to declare!
And the best part is -- posts expire after 2 weeks, which is just enough for
// zyqqh
Could someone post a copy of the `Warning signs' document from the
above URL here. I can't read it, it's in RTF format.
That's the problem in general with creating large, private entities: they are not subject to many of the laws and protections for individuals that we have achieved in civil society over the centuries.
So, in the short term, this should be an inducement to use companies other than eBay for auctioning, not only because they won't list Microsoft or Scientology products, but because preserving a diversity of services is important in general. In the long term, we should work towards more legal requirements on private companies that perform important social and economic functions in our society; eBay is a free marketplace, and it ought to be subject to strict regulations that ensures that they perform that kind of function equitably and without favoring particular companies
Actually, in the BeNeLux countries selling counterfeit Microsoft shirts would infringe both their copyright and their trademark. On the other hand, under the 'exhaustion' doctrine the sale of a legitimate shirt wouldn't violate either of them. Just nitpicking.
-- Spelling and grammar errors tend to be a sign of erroneous thinking.
Auction Sites
Test purchases and other investigations have confirmed that a significant portion of the Microsoft software sold on auction sites is counterfeit or otherwise infringing product. Microsoft has recently begun to work cooperatively with auction sites to help ensure that the software available on their sites is legal.
Microsoft and eBay have initiated an aggressive program to stop auction sites that Microsoft believes may be distributing infringing product. Microsoft monitors all auction sites and conducts daily searches to identify auctions suspected of offering counterfeit or infringing software. The company notifies eBay of suspect auctions and asks them to terminate the auctions within 24 hours. The vendors are urged to end their illegal actions, and the bidders are warned and pointed to information on software piracy. Although this program started with eBay, Microsoft has also begun similar programs with several other auction sites.
Consumers should be familiar with the warning signs of illegal software and practice safe Internet shopping in order to avoid being victimized when acquiring software from Internet auction sites.
"You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocketship underpants don't help" -- Calvin
Man, at least when Microsoft came after Slashdot, they didn't ask for their karma to be reset.
--
--
Mod up a post Rob doesn't like and you'll never mod again
Notice what it says under "Our Mission:"
eBay was founded with the belief that people are honest and trustworthy. We believe that each of our customers, whether a buyer or a seller, is an individual who deserves to be treated with respect.
Perhaps it is time to update the Mission Statement?
But hey- they just 'neutralized' the comments- that means they balanced them out right? I mean there must have been tons of positive user comments as well right?
No disagreement on the sheer stupidity of eBay's removal of M$ products, but isn't there a chance that all those comments got "neutralized" because no one bothered to refer to an item number in their comments? It IS possible that eBay has a problem with negative comments that aren't tied to a specific auction, since there's a chance the grievance won't be legit.
Slash has nothing to do with Slashdot.
well, i think technically they're just covering against the "negative 3 and you're out" rule. yes, there are more than three negative feedback ratings... ebay has a reputation on not investigating...like giving out my name and phone number to another user without investigating the nature of the complaint (it turned out that the user was looking for another ebay user, not me). I have to wonder why Microsoft bothers and what criteria they use to determine that an auction is illegitimate....there do seem to be plenty of live auctions...it seems like older software mostly, though....and Microsoft hardware (keyboard s and mice, something they can't get wrong).
I followed up my question to MSN auction and pointed out the MS anti-piracy page to get their response to the 'possibility' that some of their listings could be pirated software.
I wonder if EBay has tried this answer yet or if I was a MS lawyer I'd be getting different answers from MSN auctions. 8-) Here is their response:
Thanks for your message. While we encourage all of our sellers to list in accordance with our "Terms and Conditions", we cannot guarantee that all of the listings on the site can be successfully purchased, as the specific type of listings in question may be closed at any time.
If you have any further questions or comments please do not hesitate to contact us. We are happy to assist you.
Thanks,
The MSN Auction Team
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem& item=345155543
Not quite true. Look up the history of the British East India Company, the Dutch East India Company, and the Hudson Bay Company some time, to give just three examples. Something over two centuries of inflation is enough to convert the resources they had available into gigabucks of today's money.
The British East India Company was founded in 1600, with a capital of 70,000 pounds - worth about $10M today. By the time the US constitution was being framed, they were running large chunks of the British Empire.
Paul
Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate
Who do you expect positive comments from? Let me think: I'm selling legit software and my auction was canceled. Would I post a positive comment? I'm selling illegit software and my auction was canceled. Would I post a positive comment? Absolutely the only person benefiting from this is Microsoft. Maybe they should send in their droves of astroturfers from Slashdot to post praise comments.
Some people seem to have forgotten how to think.
Mmmm.. Donuts
The very fact that MS itself is running such auctions (even as part of a partnership agreement) and yet attempting to shut them down on Ebay may itself be an antitrust violation. If I were the DoJ or FTC, I'd take a real close look at this-- in antitrust terms, it's called a horizontal restraint of trade, and is about as automatic an antitrust violation as you can get. (Note: I'm a third year law student who has taken antitrust. Take it for what it's worth. YMMV.) Due process and innocent until proven guilty don't apply to private persons (incl. corporations like MS). However, this is about as blatant a restraint of trade as I can think of. Incidentally, if anyone feels like suing them for yanking an item, keep in mind that in antitrust law, private damages are tripled, and if this policy is revealed in a court which finds them liable, the principle of res judicata dictates that anyone else who can prove that MS screwed them in the same way pretty much automatically wins. One bee may not be able to bring down a bear, but a whole nest of 'em...
Those agreements pretty much give the service provider whatever they want. They often don't even have to provide a meaningful notification. Remember the trick Network Solutions pulled?
---
Dammit, my mom is not a Karma whore!
You'd think with the way the government is about to split up the company, the lawyers at M$ (ooh, do I get modded up for that?) would be taking it a little easy on this, and trying to not pull off the whole gestapo image. Every week /. has news of something evil they're doing. If I were running a multibillion dollar international company that was under threat of being MaBell'ed, I would at least try to stop doing some of the things the government was accusing me of doing. At least until after my lawyers had proven my legal right to do so.
my sig's at the bottom of the page.
For the non-EBay'ers here, could someone clarify exactly what's involved here? How does Microsoft use an account to shut down auctions? I read the link to VeRO and imagine that they're claiming ownership of the items. Is that correct?
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
We use your email address, your mailing address, and phone number to contact you regarding administrative notices, new product offerings, and communications relevant to your use of the Site. If you do not wish to receive these communications, you may have the ability to opt out on the preferences page.
Reasonable I think. However, reading further states:
As a general proposition, we do not sell or rent any personally identifiable information about you to any third party. The following describes some of the ways that your personally identifiable information may be disclosed. ....
Reading the appendix, they'll happily give your home address etc to any member of their VeRO system. I'm not going to pass judgement, but it does make me more and more wary. The last quote also make me wonder... "As a general..." What about times when it isn't general?
-- Sapere aude.
Since they are a public corporation based in California (go here for details), they are at the very least subject to the laws of that state.
Note that this is meant to bring e-bay's behavior to the attention of the Attorney General of California. It is not meant to provide personal remedies.
Please, be intelligent with your complaints.
"Don't use eBay", simple statement, but this is the WWW and ease of use is what any e-business will need to provide to the commin user.
Moft's moves are likely based on beligerency. I'll leave it to eBay to confirm or deny it.
In any case, this situation clearly points out how "hijacking" of any e-commerce endeavor can be done quite easily given the often desired lack of regulations. If they post a policy, can they be legally bound to it?
Just a thought.
Waiting for Moft to sue me over blocking there domain from my proxy...
"hey, did you hear that if play a copy of the win NT CD backwards, it contains devil worship and satanic mutterings?"
"that's nothing! if you play it fowards, it installs NT!"
--
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
But hey- they just 'neutralized' the comments- that means they balanced them out right? I mean there must have been tons of positive user comments as well right?
I like this bit from the Ebay User Agreement:
Therefore, although we use industry standard practices to protect your privacy, we do not promise, and you should not expect, that your personally identifiable information or private communications will remain private .
It's always nice to see reassurance that "industry standard" means that your personal info or private communication need not remain private.
Even the RIAA is not going after people selling used or shrinkwrapped CD's.. Gah.
-
air and light and time and space
this boggles...
--
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
User: darrenn1000 (86) Date: Oct-23-99 17:05:13 PST
Neutral: Totally Legal>>>>>RETAIL $89.00>>REALITY $9.99
I didn't use the preview button, so get over it!!!!
Mike
What, are you stupid?
The government is not a monarchy, and every step of this process must be carefully run through to give MS a harder time proving they had an unfair trial when (not if, when) they appeal.
The effect of what you propose would be for all the multinational corporations with overseas offices to immediately look at moving there. Think about it - if the government can smack down MS...
Meow
Yes, that's really my e-mail. Don't change a thing.
This seems like another example to me of Microsoft thinking the world revolves around them. They laugh in the face of the court essentially and turn right around and exercise their power as a monopoly and financial giant.
Yes, it is horrible that Microsoft stomps out all its competition but of more concern to me is when they stomp on the individual. Why do people continually buy products from this company when they have to pay ridiculous prices for substandard products, and at the same time watch a company they are supporting try and take away our freedom as consumers and individuals.
The problem with Boycotting something is that normally it takes a certain size to be measurable by the company being targeted, case in point the Amazon attempt here a few month back. Ebay is different. I would think that a fairly big portion of the Computer Section is populateded by slashdot readers or related geeks being either the buyers or sellers. If a significant portion of those boycotted eBay it might be felt quite fast. Second. Auctions houses has quite significant feedback mechanisms. Meaning the more sellers you have the more buyers you get etc. This works in reverse as well. A boycott that resulted in a migration to another auction site like Yahoo could possible result in eBay never regaining the clout in the computer equipment sector. The risk of that happening is probably enough for eBay to quickly cave in. Worth a try.
Help fight continental drift.
I have repeatedly suggested that eBay consider Linux and php for their auctions. They are currently running on AOL servers (ever get one ot those error pages?) on NT machines.
They have to have scheduled weekly downtime to baby sit their defective OS...I mean reboot the NT boxes, and they are plagued by system failures and chronic downtime.
Since they are so dependent upon M$, don't you think a threat of delayed or withheld support would prompt them to commit the actions they have?
bwt posted this earlier:
The Supreme Court rejected such notices in 1908. The case is BOBBS-MERRILL CO. v. STRAUS, 210 U.S. 339(1908).
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
I've had an account there since forever, don't use it much unless I need some routers cheap. Told them to pull my account and delete my information.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
M$ *owns* the eBay server clusters. Are eBay *really* going to bite the hand that fed them their entire ability to operate?
Of course not. Don't waste your breath.
On eBay, I am user "connectwithgreg" and I tried to leave negative feedback on msoft@buddy.ebay.com and have discovered the hideous truth! In light of the many negative feedbacks that the world was posting, eBay changed their feedback policy and also violated their old feedback policy by changing the negative(-1) feedback ratings to neutral(0). Gosh. When I keep seeing neutral(0) here, neutral(0) there, and neutral(0) throughout the eBay user information page, I start cracking-up. I am seeing not only angry people, but many (o)(o) digital boobies! Digital boobies! (o)(o) Microsofty's trick is to flood the page with premature tittys. Lets bust them on that too. I tried to leave negative feedback on them stating "I love Microsft", "eBay violated the feedback policy and Microsoft violated their software license policy", and "fuck Microsoft". However, eBay's changed their feedback policy only for the soar-ass-whacked benefit of Microsoft. eBay has become a sick place. Based in San Francisco, the last know place where gays are regarded as normal people. Before eBay had a user base, they did not censor anything. I bought all kinds of now-illegal items. I enjoyed looking at pictores of working and unrestored World War 2 and Persian Gulf War army devices and now those San Francisco gay pricks have removed it from my eyes. They keep-up and support the porno category and they removed the firearm category... Hey you fucking eBay fagets! I'm talking to you northern gay luvers. I bought the Anarchy stuff before you banned it. Also, I go by President Thomas Jefferson's philosphy of having freedom of knowledge. You should be affraid because your bestiality and faget fuckfest is being numbered. For every animal and gay person that you fudge-pack with, I am going to add one atom to my arsenal. One atom for each of you. You may have control of Disneyland on GayDay 2000 and 2001, but that is all you'll get in absence of Mr. Walt Disney. He is frowning on you. Keep polluting the airwaves with your filth. It only focuses my anger. "Man shall not lay with man." How did I get to gay bashing already? Wow! I am supposed to be protesting eBay, right? Well, eBay actions suggest their political ties. I must put them all in the same category. Goodbye fellow slashdoters and keep up the fight! WE ARE WINNING!
without prejudice
Pretty soon they're gonna ban sales on pentagrams, demon-summoning paraphenalia, and the Necronomicon ex Mortii.
Is there anywhere on the web where it's still safe to sell Evil Things?
Stay up hacking each weekend. Sleep is for the week.
I went to M$'s "report internet piracy" page and reported MSN as an offending company, giving the URL their auctions gave me for operating systems: http://auctions.msn.com/HTML/Cat17300/Page1.htm (which has a whole slew of Win2000 copies starting at "$2.00")
:)
Will be interesting to see what happens with that
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
I am purely amazed that at this juncture in the MS-DOJ trial proceedings that M$ would engage in such a negative way on such a public forum. I mean, its not like this would go unnoticed with the vigilant /. community on the prowl. You would think that if they had even half a wit between them, they would be pulling back into their shell a bit. I think they deserve to be broken up, if not closed completely.
Its bad enough that Ebay completely violated its own policies and re-rated the user comments up a notch (apparently making some negative comments into positive ones in the process), but its worse that M$ can use Ebay to ban legitimate sales of M$ software.
Mind you I have a copy of WinNT 4.0 on CD (totally legit) but I would not want to sell it to anyone - I would not want to inflict it on anyone. But then I have a conscience - I guess Microsoft does not...
"The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
IANAL, but those two items only apply in court and matters involving the federal government, and not always then. For instance, tax violations are presumed guilty until proven innocent because the argument was that proving guilt was too hard.
Anyway, to get back on subject, due process and innocent until proven guilty aren't required of businesses. If Microsoft were to charge you with selling fake copies, due process and innocent until proven guilty are required, however, if they can't cow everyone into denying you access to selling your wares, they have no legal obligation to prove that they were illegal.
Another possible point is that Microsoft may have have a no resale clause in their EULA. I'd drag one out and read it, but I seem to find no Microsoft software handy. Oh well. You know what they say. A computer without Microsoft is like a dog without a ton of bricks on it's head (especially if the computer really is a dog performance wise).
-- Superlame http://catpro.dragonfire.net/joshua/
Did it occur to anybody that an interested buyer just needs to look at e-mail addresses in msoft's feedback list and contact the people directly... I'm sure that by tomorrow everyone will have sold his ware. Especially after the publicity around this whole affair.
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/msoft@buddy.ebay.c om/
Mod this up! Now!
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Visit
Seeing as I have the moral spine of Gumby, even after seeing this article and re-reading eBay's privacy policy, I will probably still use the service.
BUT, for people like me, there is a nice way to get this info out and make other eBay users (with greater spines) to send a LOT of comments/complaints to eBay staff.
Create an auction. Tag a little "Oh, by the way, check out what eBay has been doing to Microsoft software auctions at http://slashdot.org/ar ticle.pl?sid=00/05/29/1542223&mode=nocomment to the top/bottom of your auction.
This should get quite a response. After say, 500 emails, the company *may* just have to look into the legality of its position before some of the more affluent eBay users decide to class action eBay before they can "neutralize" that.
as eBay most likely is doing this to avoid complications from MS.
Which is why we should make sure they see complications because they are doing this. Corporations don't base their decisions on morality. They base them on risk and potential profits or loss. We just need to show them that their profits could suffer if they simply cave in to Microsoft's demands. That is what it takes to change their decision. They have to see the effect on their bottom line. The problem is organizing a large enough boycott to actually affect their bottom line.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
ISTR, that the car companies were once caught attempting to fix the prices of pre-owned cars and had their hands slapped. I see no difference here.
More food for the DOJ cannons. Speak up! Contact them here: microsoft.atr.usdoj.gov
The Tick - "Spoon!"
"Bah!" - Dogbert
I sold my computer on ebay a couple of months ago. It was sold as "shipping to U.S. only" and "buyer pays shipping". In the last 30-45 seconds, a canadian took the highest bid. When I kindly refused to honor selling to this particular canadian, I was given negative feeback. Despite the fact that I delivered to the second bidder, the high bidder's feeback is the one that sticks, and Ebay doesn't give a rip.
They already do apply; MS is probably going to be broken up, remember? ;]
The following information is provided to help you avoid selling a prohibited or potentially infringing software item. This information is provided for all software listings, and it in no way implies anything about the listing you are currently submitting.
eBay Policy: CD-R and "beta" copies of software may not be listed on eBay unless you are the copyright owner of the software (and state that in your listing). Back-up copies of software may not be listed on eBay, regardless of the legality of your item. Sale of unauthorized copies of software probably is a copyright infringement. Under some circumstances, sale of OEM software (that comes with a computer) and "academic software" is a copyright infringement. Offering to sell infringing items may result in legal liability, the ending of your listing and/or suspension from eBay.
-Legion
> No. That would imply that there's some U
>S federal government other than that created by
> the constitution which could agree to it.
No...It would be what is refered to as a "Social Contract" ie a contract between the People and the "government".
> The constitution *is* the government, in that it
> creates the thing out of thin air.
No it doesn't. The constitution is a piece of paper with shit written on it. Nothing more. It doesn't "create government".
Government is a fiction. It is imaginary. It exists only in peoples minds. It is a game. The constitution is the written rules of the game that define titles and who can do what when.
The government has power ONLY because the vast majority of people believe that it has power. It has power because a bunch of armed men, called police, or army, believe that it has power, and will do what the people who have been given "titles" say.
The only thing that makes the Senate any different from any group of old men who get together to dicuss things and enumerate what is wrong with the world, is simply that there is an army that will follow the orders of this particular group of old kooks. (well in accordance with the rules of the game anyway)
> Originally it didn't include any rights in it at
> all, because many of the framers felt that 1) no
> democratic republic would attempt to infringe on
> human rights 2) if human rights were ennumerated
> anything that got left out would be fair game,
> so it was better to not list any at all.
As you seem to state....the latter was true and the former wrong. Sort of a "Damned if you do, damn't if you don't".
Too bad so many people think this silly game is real. Then again it is true that the silliest
people define reality. (one of Dilbert's Principalls)
-Steve
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
A Microsoft supporter acknowledges some faults of Microsoft and he gets chewed out for that. He is even called a dumbass for that. I think this says a lot more about the anonymous coward than it does about Zagato.
Let's keep Slashdot a little more open minded than that.
Is it legal to resell Microsoft software that comes with a new computer? I seem to recall having read once that it is not.
Afterwards those asses dare to complain about DDOSs.
the Nutcracker
The nice thing about Windows is: it does not just crash; it displays a nice little dialog box and let's you press 'OK'
uce@ftc.gov
just like I always do.
-jpowers
-jpowers
MySQL kept segfautling.. Otherwise, K5 seems alright now :-)
---
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
No, it is not as long as you are including all things you acquired with First Sale of the product in question. A previous poster mentioned precedent as to why this is completely legal, so I will reiterate.
BOBBS-MERRILL CO. v. STRAUS, 210 U.S. 339(1908).
So, even though you may see the 'This CD may not be resold, for distribution with a New PC only.' notice, it would not stand up in court for very long.
More on the lines of your question, you neither have to notify nor pay royalties on software, or anything for that matter you sell after the manufactorer has recieved profit from First Sale, this is pretty straight forward. Its yours to do with as you wish.
suddenly I feel very tired
It's bad enough that eBay have rolled over to Microsoft and are assisting them in blocking a legal trade in second-user software.
But what really infuriates me about this is that one specific account holder (Microsoft) can enjoy the privileges of a registered user without being subject to any penalties as a result of negative feedback because eBay have rigged the system to make them immune.
I have posted a complaint to this effect in four of eBay's community feedback discussion groups in an attempt to incite a boycott. Things being as they are, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if these posts get pulled. I wouldn't be much more surprised if my account gets revoked. Like I'd care anyway.
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
So, what is really being said here is that Microsoft has become Judge, Jury and Executioner for auctions, based on circumstantial evidence provided by Microsoft. Does this sound stupid to anyone else?
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As easy as herding cats!
This is not the first case. According to a posting to usenet eBay 19. May 2000 also canceled the aution of computer games (note: we are talking originals, not illegal copies), just search for 'OT: Eidos Cancelled my Auction at Ebay!!!' in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action with deja.com
This is fairly evil stuff. I don't know how it was addressed in the DoJ trials, but the way MS controls distribution of software (those annoying "For distribution only with a new PC" licenses) has always been a monopoly complaint.
Since MS is officially an illegal monopoly, eBay is sort of an accomplice. Yes, I'm hyperbolating.
...
Got Warez?
Wow. If that's true, that's just incredible. Basically, MS has this account just so they can complain to Ebay, and so they can get the sellers' email addresses and send them legal notices. On top of that, the sellers have no way to give them feedback!
This is an incredibly important point. I'm really surprised this wasn't moderated up. That's really sad.
I thought MS just stopped their actions in March, because they wanted to avoid more bad PR near the DOJ hearings. Instead, they supposedly (with Ebay's acquiescence) just censored the people who would have given them that bad PR. Yikes.
BTW, did anyone notice the date of the original negative comment on Ebay? It was March 22, 1999. This has been going on for over a year. Over a year, and no press at all. That just floors me. How many other incidents of their corporate bullying have we missed? It's a sobering thought about the state of today's "corporate" Internet. Like information, Internet portals are now power.
Plus, even though all the comments regarding msoft@buddy.ebay.com have been changed to 'Neutral' - there are still only 153 comments in total (at time of writing this comment)... and 153 people is a pretty small number of people to piss off when you have an impending date with a sledgehammer (can you say "Fifty million pieces", Judge Jackson ?)
Has anyone ever stopped to think about how much of this software that was blocked from sale was not currently available from Microsoft; usually because it was an older version that has now been superseded by a new and improved version ?
It is surprising how many places still run 16-bit versions of Word/Excel/Access - and not many people know how difficult it is to get copies/licenses for these versions from Microsoft - they would rather you upgrade to the latest, greatest (buggiest ?) version of Winblows and their new version of Office with the paperclip that deserves to have a fatwa placed on it.... It is people with these old versions of software that Microsoft truly has to fear, because how many people here *really* use AutoCorrect or any of the new features introduced into Word since 6.0 ?
Or does anyone here know what any version of Access greater than 2.0 actually does better than 2.0 apart from break backwards compatibility ?
The truth is that 95% of most Office users would be happier with an older version which uses less memory and costs much less than the current M$ Office 2000...
Microsoft clamped down on these people because it would have started a trend (retrocomputing ?); but this time, people wouldn't have been buying new versions of Office to supplement their old version... most people only need one word processor, etc, etc.
But yes, it doesn't really matter what the public wants, Microsoft has got its way yet again... it doesn't want to see people selling copies of Office 4.3 for $50 (money they don't see) when they can sell that person a copy of Office 2000 (lots more money, which lines Bill's pocket).
Tez
'What goes up, must come down' - just ask any NT sysadmin!
"Be vewy vewy quiet, I'm hunting wuntime ewwors!" - Elmer Fudd
Test cases in United States courts have confirmed that a significant portion of the Microsoft software sold in retail stores is the product of a Monopoly.
The people of the United States have initiated an aggressive program to stop companies they believe may be using a monopoly to infringe on the distribution of competing product.
Consumers should be familiar with the warning signs of illegal software monopolies and practice safe O/S shopping to avoid being victimized when acquiring software from Monopolistic Corporations.
Anyone can stop any sale on Ebay, by saying that an item infringes any law. If they are mistaken about the item infringing their rights or the law, then they have commited purgury, which is a criminal offense.
Anyone who's item is pulled can resubmit it. Then its up to the first guy to sue the second guy if he still thinks there's a violation.
I'm going to make a fake eBay auction selling a "MICROSOFT / 2" t-shirt with an Office logo and a Windows logo on each side to see if that "infringes on their copyright" ;)
I do the same thing. It's amazing how much e-mail 'i_charge_1000USD_to_receive_uce@overtone.org' gets. And it's always fun to hear the spammers remarks when I invoice them. I've never gotten anybody to pay up, but I do occasionally go to the trouble of sicking a collection agency on 'em, if only for the entertainment value.
Friends get accounts that are on a whitelist as 'always good', and then websites generally get some variation of 'devnull@overtone.org' (gee, I wonder what happens to that e-mail)
----------------------------
if you go to http://auctions.msn.com you will find a lot of MS software for sale. Are they simply killing the auctions at eBay, in order to get people to use ms's auction site?
Microsoft is browbeating eBay into stopping the sale of legitimate merchandise which Microsoft doesn't want sold. (Not that eBay is blameless in this either.)
Is this restraint of trade?
I was bidding on a pair of gold Neumann's the other day and the auction was pulled and i was given a notice about the VeRO. I'm still trying to figure out what was not legal about that.
----------------------------
A major downfall of e-commerce is the inability to picket a business. If a real world business had practices like eBay people would stand outside and let potential consumers know what they were about to get into. We as consumers can't head off other consumers before they make these mistakes, and not everyone knows about slashdot. We need to appeal to the mass media. Call CNN, ABC, or even PBS for that matter. Tell them what's going on in the WWW and point them to /. We need to inform the uninformed and if we can't picket we can at least try to get the word out on the boob-tube and let other consumers know what M$ is doing.
Bzzt Whir Click
Okay slashdotters, who's gonna set up the "Boycott EBay" site. We seem to have a boycott page for every other significant Internet Company, so how about Ebay.
On a related note, is there an index page somewhere which lists all of the current boycotts going on?
--------- Beware the dragon, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
Ahhhh, but that is not the question. The question is: is this the right thing to do, or are they being stupid? Legally they can do this, however, that I am not arguing.
I think that this is pretty crazy, as I have sold opened, legal software on ebay. And as another poster mentioned, it is legal to transfer your license to someone else.
This is not a flame, but just a clarification of what I think the other posters are commenting on.
He who knows not, and knows he knows not is a wise man
they tried and lost like 8-10 years ago.
-jpowers
-jpowers
The most recent feedback is from March 3.. Does this mean M$ has given up, or just taken a break?
Daniel
daniel@splink.net
Obviously, what i said only applies to the used software, which applies to many, if not most of the auctions.
- - - - - - -
Oliver Sosinsky
- - - - - - -
Oliver Sosinsky
OneBahamas.com
If it said it was an OEM Not-for-Resale copy... Yank
/. zealots who believes software piracy is perfectly legit, they're still screwing over customers by selling something that cost them $5 in materials to make for $75.
Why?
If I buy a computer and it comes with software I don't want, why can't I sell it to someone who wants it?
Assuming I'm selling the unopened (or as close as comes) package -- full documentation, discs, etc. -- and the software in question is deleted from the original machine, what exactly have I done wrong?
I can understand if Microsoft and eBay want to combat software piracy. But MS has an obligation to properly investigate illegal copying of software -- otherwise they open themselves up to a slander suit by accusing someone of being a criminal with no evidence. (And these people can file a lawsuit; whether or not they can win is another story.)
But then again, this is why the UCITA laws are so savory for software makers (and MS in particular); they want to stamp out the "first sale" doctrine and force people to only buy "authorized" copies directly from them or an "approved" reseller.
(Yet another reason why I prefer dead-tree editions of books and comics and such, because it's only a matter of time before someone applies this to "traditional" text and/or images, if they're served in an online or "interactive" medium.)
And, given a choice between potentially buggy software that I can't fix, sell or give away (proprietary software under UCITA) and potentially buggy software that I can fix, sell or give away (Free Software) I'm going to start opting for the latter. Hopefully others will start doing the same, if they aren't already.
Think about it. Even if you are one of these
But you could apply that to "official" copies as well. I just bought a copy of Half-Life that consisted of nothing but a CD. Is a box, a jewel case and insert, and a disk really worth $40? The only difference between the two is that one is a legally-licensed copy of the software and one isn't.
Hell even Linux is being missold on ebay. I see tons of people trying to auction off $5 Cheapbytes CD's for $20...
Which is not illegal, according to the GPL (unless, of course, they're only distributing the binaries). There's nothing wrong with buying an item and selling it to someone else at a markup -- that's how traditional retail works, in case you haven't figured it out. I've bought stuff for my store on clearance at a fraction of its "actual" cost to me and sold it for full retail price. Am I a criminal?
Now, if they're misrepresenting their product ("Official Red Hat Linux 6.2 for only 5$!") that's a different issue.
Jay (=
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I emailed eBay customer support asking under what circumstances feedback could be changed from negative to neutral. The reply was "under no circumstances". Below is their response, which includes the message I sent them at the bottom.
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 13:04:30 -0700
From: eBay Customer Support
Reply-To: eBay Customer Support
X-Mailer: Kana 5.0
Hello,
Thank you for contacting us with your question. Changing a feedback comment from negative to neutral also constitutes editing of the feedback which eBay does not do. As such, under no circumstances would eBay change the rating of a feedback comment, nor would the content of a
feedback comment be changed.
I hope this answers your question. If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us any time. Thanks for using eBay!
Regards,
Hudson
eBay Customer Support
SafeHarbor Investigations Team
____________________________
eBay
Your Personal Trading Community (tm)
Original message follows:
-------------------------
The instant answer information on feedback states the following:
eBay does not edit, alter or delete any user-supplied data, in any of the public areas of eBay, except at the direction of our Legal department.
Altering data only occurs in extreme circumstances, for example if the User Agreement is violated.
Since we do not edit feedback comments, the only thing eBay can offer is the option of hiding the feedback if a member feels a comment in their
file is libelous.
------------------
Under what circumstances might eBay change the rating of a feedback left for a user? For instance if I leave a negative comment, under what circumstances would eBay change the rating to neutral, but not edit the comment?
There is a similar story about an auction being blocked on e-bay at fetchnew.com . Apparently an inmate tried to auction off seats to his execution.
Here is eBay's prompt (12 hours) reply to my inquiry about users with negative feedback, and why the msoft users comments, which were clearly not neutral, were listed as such. Hello Nate, Thanks for using eBay. I'll be happy to help. Even though a member may have a multiple number of negative feedback comments, we are unable to take any action against them unless their overall feedback rating is a -4. Since like to give everybody the benefit of the doubt, we believe that members deserve more than one chance to prove themselves worthy of participating on our site. I have taken a look at the member's feedback profile and have found that these transactions are not actually associated to an eBay transaction. Before mid March, our feedback forum was not transaction related only. However, in order to leave a negative comment, the item number was required. Since these comments did not actually apply to eBay transactions, they could only be left as neutrals. When leaving feedback, you have the choice of positive, negative, or neutral. I hope this information will be helpful and apologize for any inconvenience. Please let us know if we can be of further assistance. Regards, Angela W. A. eBay Customer Support ______________________________ eBay Your Personal Trading Community (tm)
THIS SPACE FOR RENT
Software Product Transfer. You may permanently transfer all of your rights under this EULA only as part of a permanent sale or transfer of the HARDWARE, provided you retain no copies, you transfer all of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT (including all component parts, the media and printed materials, any upgrades, this EULA and, if applicable, the Certificate(s) of Authenticity), and the recipient agrees to the terms of this EULA. If the SOFTWARE PRODUCT is an upgrade, any transfer must also include all prior versions of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT.
Meaning, if you own it, abide by the EULA scribbled above, and the purchaser does as well, then you can do whatever the hell you want with it.
Termination. Without prejudice to any other rights, Microsoft may terminate this EULA if you fail to comply with the terms and conditions of this EULA. In such event, you must destroy all copies of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT and all of its component parts.
Meaning that IF Microsoft thinks you are being a douchebag, they can yank your rights to the software you just bought. But wait, here's more.
COPYRIGHT. All title and copyrights in and to the SOFTWARE PRODUCT (including but not limited to any images, photographs, animations, video, audio, music, text and "applets," incorporated into the SOFTWARE PRODUCT), the accompanying printed materials, and any copies of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT, are owned by Microsoft or its suppliers. You may not copy the printed materials accompanying the SOFTWARE PRODUCT. All rights not specifically granted under this EULA are reserved by Microsoft.
Which means, "What? We forgot to add that clause that places our customers into a perfect 90 degree angle, with their legs perpendicular to the floor, complete with a wall in the way for their head? Well hell, Bill, throw it on in, and git yer pants off!!"
All jokes aside, it means they can screw with you about anything. Over anything, with anything. Including farm animals, big and small.
krystal_blade
It will be easy to motivate our fellow man; there is hardly anything people treasure more than not being annihilated.
"Innocent until proven guilty" and "due process" are constraints placed on the U.S. government. More abstractly, they are ideals which America supposedly tends to like. However, private organizations aren't required to uphold these ideals.
Unless MS goes through court to gets auctions taken down, auctioneers are only entitled to whatever scraps of fairness eBay decides to hand out.
...
Got Warez?
Sorry the story is at fetchnews.com I accidently left out the "S".
Location: Redmond, Washington
Title: Ebay Warrior
Salary: 50-70K
Benefits: Full
Available: Immediately
Description: Under the direction of the legal department at Microsoft Corporation, the job holder will use the popular auction site eBay all day looking for ways to screw with disgruntled Microsoft customers looking to unload their buggy software on unsuspecting old women and teenagers.
Qualifications: The ideal candidate will have at least three months of previous unemployement, during which he or she attepted to run an at-home business selling garbage on auction sites. Lack of conscience and low self-esteem a plus. Candidates who are extremely unethical and bloodthirsty are encouraged to apply.
Seriously, someone has to do it
Praise: This is a COMPLAINT! They ended an auction for legal MS software, no explanatio
Praise: Cancelled auction on legal retail Windows 98 upgrade with contacting me
Praise: Microsoft pirates their own software, allowing full registration, & upgrades????
Praise: Got back to me after ending auction and set things right. Thanks for the help!
Only one of these praises actually contains a positive comment. I guess the praise/neutral ratio should actually be 1/152 and not 4/149!
---
"It looks just like a Telefunken U47"
If you need to report possible cases of misuse on eBay, you can email safeharbor@ebay.com.
that says it all. Email them and report this abuse.
"one treats others with courtesy not because they are gentlemen or gentlewomen, but because you are" --G. Henrichs
Apparently you're no longer allowed to sell things you've bought.
- A.P.
--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
I want to know if the users who list the auctions get their listing fees back from eBay, as they are not breaking any of the rules of ebay by selling their legal software.
He who knows not, and knows he knows not is a wise man
I sent eBay a polite note about this, and received the following response.
On Wed, 31 May 2000 12:57:51 eBay Customer Support wrote:
Thank you for taking the time to write us with your concern about our feedback policy. I will be happy to address your concerns. First the feedback for msoft@buddy.ebay.com hasn't been altered and our policies haven't been changed for this member.
About three months ago we changed our feedback policy. Before members could leave neutral comments to any other member at any time. Negative
comments had to be transaction related, so when members were upset with another member even if it wasn't in regards to a transaction they had
completed with that member they could leave neutral comments.
To answer your first question the feedback wasn't altered from negative to neutral. All of the comments that are neutral were originally left as
neutral comments.
Many alternatives to curb misuse of the Feedback Forum while still maintaining a non-transactional feedback option were considered. However, the input that we received from the community was overwhelmingly in favor of linking every comment to an actual transaction on the site.
Based on that, we decided to change the past system to make all feedback transaction related. I hope that this information helps explain why this
member has so many neutral comments. If you have any other questions or concerns feel free to contact us.
So that answers the question. The comments were neutral because that was the only option available to the people who posted the feedback.
My name is Robert Lemos, a reporter with ZDNet News. I am currently researching an article on Microsoft's ability to stop the sale of legal Windows software on eBay, and during my research, I saw your alias on the msoft@buddy.ebay.com feedback list. I wanted to get information regarding your attempted sale of Microsoft software, and if you are amenable, interview you on your sale. 1) Were you selling the original CD-ROM? 2) Was the software a standalone product that you bought at a store? Or was it included with a computer that you bought? 3) How were you notified of the "infringing action?" 4) Did eBay suspend you because of the auction? 5) Did Microsoft take further action aside from the original notification? 6) Can you give me you real name and address for quoting in the article? Thanks for your time. If you have any questions, please e-mail me. -R
pronoblem
I figure I'll apply for an artistic grant from the NEA to carry it out.
Should produce a good lightshow. Plus I get a lot of satisfaction from blasting M$ software. Maybe I'll even invite certain attorney generals and DOJ officials to take some shots
I plan to use those annoying AOL discs to perfect the shot effect on the CDs. Anyone have any ideas how to adapt a handheld skeet machine to accept CDs? Any other suggestions?
"Open code, in other words, can be a check on state power." -Lawrence Lessig
Sheesh. I was curious about this myself the other day because a friend of mine said he just bought a copy of Office97 for $50. I've seen this in the past, another friend bought a copy a few years ago which was obviously pirated as the insert was a photocopy.
/. zealots who believes software piracy is perfectly legit, they're still screwing over customers by selling something that cost them $5 in materials to make for $75.
I was kind of curious of the state of piracy today and how they were being advertised, So I went over to ebay and did a search to see what I came up with.
Quite a lot of interested little advertisements. There are people auctioning off instructions on how to buy stuff off the MS website... I love that!
There were also a lot off Office97 stuff up for sale, a lot of which had been cancelled.
What I found was that if the description for the item said "Retail copy with discs and box", the auction still existed. Or if it mentioned the statement of authenticity, etc it was still there.
If it said something about it being just a CD with no documentation... Yank
If it said it was an OEM Not-for-Resale copy... Yank
If it looked mighty suspicious like they had 100 copies for sale, no mention of boxes, etc... Yank
If you looked into this enough, you'd come to quickly realize that a large portion of the software for sale on ebay is pirated. And I'm not talking just OEM copies being resold. I'm talking blatant make a new CDROM, photocopy an insert and put it in a case, sell it for $75... pirating.
It's not just Microsoft. Adobe is having a problem with Photoshop as well. There are a slew of these counterfeitors out there screwing people over left and right.
Think about it. Even if you are one of these
Hell even Linux is being missold on ebay. I see tons of people trying to auction off $5 Cheapbytes CD's for $20...
It's a huge scam. Ebay is likely supportive because these things make them look bad as well.
There's no question that this is another blatant example of microsoft's bullying techniques used to repress ANYTHING that threatens it's profits. However, as far as the legitimacy of what they are doing is concerned, they *might* be allright here. Ever read a software license agreement? Just about every one will grant the user rights to use a copy of the software, but not actually rights of ownership of the actually software copy. So even if you bought the software, you do not actually own it in the sense that you can sell it, etc. go figure. However, my point is, since this is clear legal issue, what microsoft and ebay are doing is merely the same super-aggressive proffiteering you get from them anyway, not something corrupt.
- - - - - - -
Oliver Sosinsky
- - - - - - -
Oliver Sosinsky
OneBahamas.com
This is america, people.
Um, no, it isn't.
It's the Internet.
If it happens to be America where you type then my condolences. All you can do is emigrate.
Or do you have data that indicates that all halted E-Bay sales were by Americans on American soil?
-----
A rich couple found their ideal pet in a dog that makes e-mail programs.
- A.P.
--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
Yes, according to US law. But not all eBay buyers are US people.
If Ebay wants to loose international buyers/sellers, it is the best way in order to do so.
According to MS-EULA, OEM licences cannot be sold separatly from a computer, hard drive, or a motherboard.
So, if you plan buying a MS OEM licence, also bid on a motherboard, and you're OK, and also the seller, even if he does just sell the OEM licence. MS had never said those parts must be purchased from the same seller.
eBay, by ending the listing, is wrong and seems now to belong to Microsoft with this unjustified behaviour.
----------------
----------------
If Internet is Freedom, Linux is Democraty
You are the typical average joe who is too afraid to speak up with anything of value. I can sware that you are the same liberal that responds to all of my extreme posts. You are always going to be a half-ass wanabee orator. I can already remember Reverend John Haggee's speach exhoing in my ears on people such as yourself. I'll say this... You will be affraid when there is a revolution. You will never understand the truth about this world with such a premature brain. I ask, "why do you even give a rat's-fart by posting cheap-shot ideas?" All of your posts suck-ass and you'll never be able to hold any facts on your arguments. I am going to *biggett* my foot up your ass if I ever find out who you are. Like your post said, you are an *A*N*O*N*Y*M*O*U*S* C:O:W:A:R:D. As a token of my friendship, so you don't feel rejected by me, I want to give you something. I call it the badge of Lameness. It looks like this... *\L/* It unmistakeably looks like the *Loser* badge. Wear it with pride. I hope I didn't make you hurt inside. Whith all those animals that you were sleeping with, who needs humans, eh? Right? Now, go in pieces. Have a nice day. :o)
without prejudice
This issue I believe is symptomatic of the larger problem: packaged software is as much a manufactured good as a wrench or a hammer you buy a local hardware store. To allow companies to tell you how you can use it is as ridiculous as allowing Sears to force you to sign a contract saying you won't lend your power tools you just bought to your neighbor at the penalty of having Sears revoke your right to use them.
That also applies to movies and music. Once you buy the disk or whatever media it came on, it should be yours. Anything else is a violation of the consumers' property rights!
I haven't bought anything through ebay, but now they've sealed their fate with me, I won't buy anything through their network now!
Yes, how about this:
I believe an antique is anything older than, 25 years? Something like that.. surely some software is finally becoming antique: wether it be an Apple 2, Commodore, etc.
One would be curious to wether antiques are governed differently? Maybe not legally, but on a service such as E-bay.
Any insights?
That's why we've called them the MSPD up in Washington for years - those who dare to sell computers with OEM software besides M$FT or who will sell preowned packaged M$FT software. Microsoft doesn't follow the law - they are above it. The immortal words of Lilly Tomlin come to mind (when Bell owned the world) "We are the phone company, we are omne-tint, we do not conform to any state of federal regulations".
---
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
Can anyone actually verify that msoft@buddy.ebay.com is actually a Microsoft representative and not some joker hacking around. Maybe someone is just messing around with an exploit or has totally fooled someone at eBay. If that's the case it's really funny and my hat is off to them.
Um, EBay is a private company, and not really in the 'monopoly' position Microsoft is in, I don't see why they can't try to control what's sold through their channels.
They don't have (or don't want to spend) the time or the money to pay for investigations into every complaint, so why should they? Perhaps EBay users should be allowed to pay in to fund better investigation, similar to the way we pay taxes to pay for a Judicial system.
But, I digress. EBay can do whatever it likes, for all I care; there are plenty of other auction sites if you want to sell your licensed software.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
I love how Microsoft makes it seem that when they stop piracy, they are protecting the consumer and not their profits.
One recent poster from their piracy division said, (paraphrased) "How would you feel if you took your new car in for service according to your warranty, and you discovered that your warranty was a fraud ? That you had been duped into buying a fraudulent new car, and that your meticulous records were now worthless ?"
The idea is that if the copy is fraudulent, then you get no guarantees for good service. If the copy is exactly the same (except for who burnt the cd-rom), then any problems with the software comes from the original source (MS). If you bought the shrink-wrapped version of the software, try getting a warranty from Microsoft to fix bugs or replace lost business from downtime. You won't get it. The analogy falls flat, but sounds convincing if you don't think about it or are not computer industry savvy. It's a similar argument to MS anti-trust argument that the government was essentially trying to tell Ford that they had to use other companies engines, to use the same logic for unbundling (oops, uninnovating) IE with Windows. It's a misleading argument by those that know it, but corporate arguments are not necessarily about truth but about getting your share price stable or rising.
Ever get Microsoft anti-piracy e-mail? It sounds like propaganda from the front,
"Today fearless government agents, under expert leadership from BillG himself, stormed a factory dedicated to the eradication of the American Way! G-men conficated tens of burnt cds intended solely for weakening the red, white and blue; mom; and apple pie; by depriving Microsoft of up to $4,000 in lost war-bonds. Citizens, you must be vigilant and stop this Red Menace before they sell your children to the sex trade! If your money isn't going directly to Microsoft, then your money is going to overturn the Statue of Liberty.
(rousing chorus of "One God, one faith, one OS")
End Rant;
return 0;
legal disclaimer - Don't copy cds, ever.
We, the public, gave Micro$oft the money with which to walk on the rights of consumers and bully any non-cooperating party into bankrupcy. To complain that a neighbor is irresponsibly blasting off his shotgun in the middle of the night is unjust if he is shooting at our monster.
If we want to be free of it we must insure that we do not feed it, and give our fellow humans the means to stop feeding it themselves.
Linux was the first step
WINE was the second.
Use them!
-rpl
Pressure from Microsoft to abuse their position of power is no excuse. eBay is, until a Microsoft smoking gun is identified, the offender here. After a 'smoking gun' is found, there would be two offenders. Microsoft pressure, even illegal pressure, shouldn't let eBay off the hook.
eBay was entrusted to provide a service (that they advertise) and they appear to have refused, with no reasonable explanation given.
If they actually changed the rating of comments, that, to me, is also inexcusable. If they can't, or won't, provide an explanation for all of this, I will never use eBay.
Microsoft won't get any of my business anyway.
Geeky modern art T-shirts
MS is a sinking ship, Ebay is one of the few profitable E-companies. Ebay should have enough power and money to fight those stupid claims; they would improve reputation and respect they get from customers, and it will be good for their market power too.
Ebay, show us some guts!!!!!
___
But this is between two American companies. They have to follow American law. They don't have to follow French laws, though, for example.
He who knows not, and knows he knows not is a wise man
What M$ has done here is both slander against the individuals involved and a restraint of trade, not to mention a breach of contract with the folks that bought their stuff. I am sure there are knockoffs for sale and these folks should be closed down, but to do this in this way just re-enforces the fact that M$ should be terminated at the first opportunity. A class action against ebay and M$ uner ricco for treble damages would not be out of order. The first page of their feedback page read as follows:
User: pocky220 (73) (not a registered user) Date: Mar-03-00 21:55:59 PST
Neutral: I have the right to sell the Windows 98 I BOUGHT.. this is BULL SHIT............
User: cellar (476) (not a registered user) Date: Mar-03-00 13:38:29 PST
Neutral: Hmmm....Gulty to proven innocent? Microsoft is Un-American...Break them up...
User: ni-dan (45) Date: Mar-02-00 04:54:11 PST Neutral: NEGATIVE!!! HITLERSOFT ENDS ANOTHER LEGAL AUCTION!!!
User: boatman9 (222) Date: Feb-29-00 19:57:57 PST Neutral: End my legal auction. Hope Justice Dept. socks it to ya in the Anti-Trust Suit!
User: booktrapper (41) Date: Feb-29-00 01:36:48 PST Neutral: Why can't you at least inquire about the item? You are only hurting yourselves..
User: jlindsay (92) Date: Feb-24-00 18:20:12 PST
Neutral: 268283455 another auction ended @ the hands of Micro$oft
User: carydixon (29) Date: Feb-24-00 12:12:07 PST Neutral: I own this software. It is mine to sell. F- - ck you.
User: dbx (19) Date: Feb-23-00 15:13:32 PST
Neutral: Ended my perfectly legit sale.. This is-un american. Guilty.....NOT
User: totaltickets (41) Date: Feb-23-00 13:30:44 PST Neutral: A STABLE OPERATING SYSTEM IS A NO-WIN(TM) SITUATION - FCUK MICROSOFT
User: bill.p (10) Date: Feb-21-00 18:03:41 PST
Neutral: NEGATIVE: You have blocked legitimate sale of new software and slandered me
User: mikeps (10) Date: Feb-17-00 20:26:11 PST
Neutral: MS killed off my legitimate auction; no wonder so many hate Micro$oft & windoZe
User: pronoblem (271) Date: Feb-16-00 16:04:28 PST
Neutral: I was forced to buy it from Dell, I should be able to sell it. www.linux.org
User: peter0175 (1) Date: Feb-15-00 22:18:55 PST
Neutral: M.S. NAZI -- Ended a TOTAL legit auction. NEGATIVE COMMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
User: kak268 (40) Date: Feb-15-00 22:08:37 PST
Neutral: ended 2 of my legit auctions. won't respond to emails. you suck monkey balls MS!
User: bruce2816 (103) Date: Feb-09-00 21:38:49 PST
Neutral: Emailed my high bidder, told him copyright violation - on unopened retail box!
User: biiin (private) Date: Feb-04-00 20:49:48 PST
Neutral: Ebay was once cool till they became Microsoft B*tches.. Legit auction canceled.
User: jt325i (98) Date: Feb-03-00 17:15:40 PST
Neutral: 25240347Will respect wishes and not relist, however the product was legitimate.
User: chrisandro (56) Date: Feb-02-00 05:03:14 PST
Neutral: Anal Retentive Microsoft wants more money & people to pay retail !!!!!
User: dhacker1 (253) Date: Jan-30-00 10:24:05 PST
Neutral: NEGATIVE! MS & Ebay Cancelled my perfectly legit auction.
User: pb3623 (11) Date: Jan-30-00 06:21:07 PST
Neutral: Anyone want to buy my LEGITIMATE NT 4.0 CD, come to my garage sale.. plain wrong
User: magnacomp (166) Date: Jan-26-00 03:02:48 PST
Neutral: Assumed guilty until proven innocent? This is a blatant constitutional violation
User: andy.888 (14) Date: Jan-17-00 15:00:37 PST
Neutral: die microsoft you suck
User: ratkins@x-networks.net (0) Date: Jan-17-00 10:21:32 PST
Neutral: Greedy 6asterds want you to pay retail! Anti-Trust - I think so!
User: mchstech (18) Date: Jan-14-00 17:10:22 PST
Neutral: Ended my Auction for a perfectly LEGAL copy of MS Publisher 98.
User: recycledelectrons (58) Date: Jan-14-00 15:54:14 PST
Neutral: email me (aba3600@omega.uta.edu) about a class action suit for slander!
Under normal circumstances a score of -3 gets you kicked out of ebay. ebay should apply this to M$ as well as anyone else.
Um. Just wondering... Has anyone patented the process of auctioning something online. Hey, if POST and GET can be covered, I don't see why this can't? Why not get the patent and charge eBay a nice, juicy fee?
.02
My
Quux26
My
Quux26
www.crashspace.net
Neutral: Totally Legal<<<<<SOLD IT ANYWAY>>>>>>RETAIL $89.00>>REALITY $9.99
Best comment so far.
-A.P.
--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
>Take your business elsewhere and let >msoft@buddy.ebay.com know it
Finally! An excuse to sell those Mint-condition MS-DOS 3.3 packages that I found while cleaning my employeers basement!
Although, it is interesting to note that Micros~1/Ebay didn't pull all MS-related auctions, because there are still plenty of acuctions for older Microsoft Products like MS-DOS 6.22 and the like.
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
I just checked it out on ebay... my search turned up quite a lot of MS products...
-- Dr. Eldarion --
It's not what it is, it's something else.
Way to go!! /.ed kuro5hin.. /. now...
You
*sigh* too bad, I find I read that more than
IANAL, but I believe that this is not entirely true. When someone offers a service, and you take them up on it, there is sometimes an implied contract. The terms of the contract are often based on the service policies in force at the time you start using the service.
If this were not the case, whould eBay be free to change my auction so that I'm offering something entirely different? Would eBay be free to delete high bids to favor their friends or powerful entities like Microsoft?
The remedies against what eBay and Microsoft are doing would be civil action and Microsoft may feel safe in their knowledge that none of the potential plaintiffs in such a case have very much in the way of damages to claim. Perhaps some sharp attorney would like to contact all of the people who posted negative feedback concerning a class action?
-Jordan Henderson
How much would either of you want for DOS 1.x in a box? (OK if box is opened) I'm quite serious. -Ben
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
Welcome to the world that you get when corporations begin to run everything. Your rights are governed by contracts, nothing so noble as a constitutional right. And your rights are only as enforcable as you can afford to make them through lawsuits.
So, if this pisses you off, do the following:
1) Cancel your ebay account
2) Let ebay know why you did it
If you are feeling really malicious, buy some stock in them, and go to the shareholder meeting. Proceed to ask uncomfortable questions about these policies. Wave hi for me as you are getting thrown out
---
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
The neat thing about this is that they'll do it to anyone - including someone who only set up their (carefully legit) auction so they could make a lot of noise and call in some lawyers when it gets pulled.
:-)
So - anyone out there fed up enough with this shit? Here's you're chance to be a victim with no liability and a fight you can win, regardless of whether you choose trial by court or by media.
Ever wished that instead of people bowing to MS, you could take their shoes and fight on the side of right? Now you can do it. And since you're setting them up, you can make damn sure that you know _exactly_ what their policy permits, and exactly what their obligations are.
As a hobby, it beats model railroad
Welcome to the world that you get when corporations begin to run everything. Your rights are governed by contracts, nothing so noble as a constitutional right.
Hrm, isn't the constitution a contract, one that limits the governments power?
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
I sent a message to wired to tip them off.. We'll see what happens though..
Micro$oft just declared that the store-bought CDs of all its products contain "trade secrets."
Micro$oft's next move will be to sue all manufacturers of CD-ROM drives for supplying suspected-just-maybe-well-you-have-to-admit-there' s-a-small-chance-they-could-be pirates with the equipment to "execute" those trade secrets.
--
The real Captain Derivative has a Slashdot ID.
Its not 'is it legal to do it', its 'is it illegal for EBay to stop you from doing it on their site'
The first one is probably true, the second one probably isn't.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=bo ycotts!
/.-ers to foget about all boycotts they decide to declare!
And the best part is -- posts expire after 2 weeks, which is just enough for
// zyqqh
Sounds like another reason to break up Microsoft. It seems they like to bring out their Microlawyers if they see people recieving money if the Microsoft name is involved. I guess I can never sell my truck if Ford ever decides to adopt some of Microcraps thinking. Bill has been way too greedy for way too long. GO DOJ!!
So what were the copy's of Windoze fetching?
$2.00?
$3.50?
MS is trying to control the price fixing they've orchastrated so well... If people start seeing what Windows98 is really worth, then MS would be doomed...
It's no point complaining about MS or RIAA or MPAA etc. The law currently favours the big corporation over the small consumer.
Political "Sound bites" and BS aside, the government and law makers persuaded more by the deep purses and lobbyist of the big corporations than they are by the complaints of Joe Public.
This kind of crap will continue until the law starts to favour the consumer.
If a big corp wants to silence you, or out shout you, then they have the money, time, legal team, marketing department and man power to achieve this despite all the moral arguments that you'd care to distribute.
Even what used to be free platform for all - the Internet - can be sileced at the whims of these Scum.
-- "To ask a question is to show ignorance; Not to ask a question means you'll remain ignorant."
Head over to http://auctions.msn.com.
Enter 'Windows 98' in the search field.
Browse the results.
Here are a few of the ones I found:
Microsoft Windows 98 Upgrade 2nd Edition Retail Box - $89.99
Windows 98 Second Edition + Boot Disk - $15.00
New Sealed Windows 98 Cd (Unregistered) - $32.00
Those are on the first search page. Now All I searched for was 'Windows 98', who knows how many Windows 95, 3.1, or NTs are hidden in there.
So we're not allowed to buy Microsoft software via auction websites.......unless it's MICROSOFT'S auction website? Fuck you, Microsoft.
Chalk up more evidence for the DoJ.
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon? :P)
(If you can't figure out how to E-Mail me, Don't.
OEM software -- OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer
When computer manufacturers (OEMs) sell computers they often pre-install or bundle software
with the computer. The purchaser often gets with the purchase the original software CD-rom discs
or floppy discs in a jewel case or plain box. Such software almost always is licensed for use only
on the machine on which it is installed and purchased by the user.
In such cases, you generally cannot sell the software to someone else unless you are also selling
them the machine it came on. Anyone selling OEM software without the machine is potentially
infringing upon the software company's copyright. Be wary of offers to buy software in jewel
cases only with no other original packaging or manuals.
MS only has rights to make a profit on the 'first sale'. Meaning the copy of windows98 that came on your computer from DELL was already sold to DELL then the license was transferred, or sold, to you. If you decide to sell it to someone else, it's way out of microsoft's hands. Already in a fourth set of hands.
Geesh.
Scott Ruttencutter
We Apprentice Developers and Designers
There's been some hinting that re-selling MS software is somehow illegal. Is this the case? As I recall, various court decisions over the past few years have affirmed the fact that, once boought, a legitimate copy of software is mine to do with as I please, short of copying it for the purpose of selling pirated versions.
Why doesn't it surprise me that Ebay and MS are mentioned in the same article/context as the Church of Scientology? And Gates wants the world to believe he's battling the DOJ on behalf of consumers, so that he can continue to "innovate"? Christ, I hope Jackson and the DOJ gives it to old Bill REAL GOOD!