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The Tightening Net: Part One
JD got a letter in the mail just before Christmas, telling him his student loan application had been denied because an independent credit search agency had uncovered a $120 debt he'd allegedly incurred four years ago -- when he would have been a teenager. The bank said it wasn't responsible for the credit information, and the collection agency that listed his debt wasn't responsible for the loan denial.
With his University of Minnesota tuition money held up, he couldn't register for classes, access his grades or eat at the cafeteria. When he called the bank loan officer (it took three days to reach her), she told him a computer credit agency in Arkansas had red-flagged his loan. All she could tell JD was that the debt had showed up in an online collection agency's files; she didn't know the details. "We don't really have anything to do with it," he remembers her telling him in an odd farewell. If the bank didn't have any responsibility, he wondered, who did?
When JD called the number for the credit firm listed on his loan rejection form, he got a recording: the firm didn't take telephone calls about credit information, supposedly for security reasons (but probably to evade enraged callers.)
The message instructed those people questioning their credit problems (JD had no debts, so far as he knew; he was too young at the time of the alleged problem to have credit cards) to write registered letters, then submit the overdue payments by mail. In the meantime, there was no way he could learn the details of the alleged delinquency, or even how to pay up.
JD wrote the letter -- his tuition payment was past due by this point, and desperation was setting in -- only to get a form saying he owed the $120 for music ordered by mail. He could challenge or appeal the debt, but that would take at least another 30 days, by which time, he'd be suspended, a "ghost" student, allowed to stay in his dorm and attend classes, but not to register or get grades.
I've gotten a number of e-mails like this in recent months, raising serious questions about growing databases, the way financial firms share personal information and use tracking software, and the impact these factors have on privacy, personal dignity and consumer's rights.
We've heard some public discussion about "identity theft," and about credit ratings damaged by thieves and crackers, but there may be an more widespread problem: privacy invasions of people who have minor legal or financial problems -- all now collected and instantly reported by credit and collection agencies using high-powered tracking software -- and institutions' often disproportionate responses. Sophisticated software and growing computer networks and databases mean that no transgressions of any sort are private, or truly past. Rack up a debt or commit a crime, no matter how minor or long ago, and you're tagged for years, perhaps for life.
Suddenly, we all seem to live at the mercy of credit-tracking companies. Companies and organizations -- especially those, like insurance firms, that rely on stats and formulas -- are no longer able to make sensible or humane judgements about what these agencies uncover. Instead, software seems to be making the calls on consumers' reliability and integrity.
For instance, JP56 at earthlink writes that she was denied a teaching job because of a drunk driving arrest that occurred a few weeks after she'd turned eighteen (she's now twenty-eight). She had gotten drunk at a high school graduation party, and drove afterward. Dumb behavior, for sure, but she says she isn't a regular drinker, has had no other violations, and that her penalty was a 60-day license suspension.
Dan was denied car insurance after he hit two deer in Pennsylvania within a six-month period. "Because of mild winters, there are tons of deer around," he wrote me. "I was doing a lot of driving -- I was working two jobs to pay for school -- late at night. One time a deer ran into the side of the car, another I hit it straight on. Then I moved to San Francisco. Three years later, I get a letter from my insurance company referring me to this credit tracking company. My insurance is denied, says the insurance company. It was years ago, and it wasn't my fault. But there wasn't anything I could do. I had to get into this state pool and pay three times the going rate. And I've never had a traffic ticket in my life."
Peter agreed to buy some vintage comic books from a phone-order firm on a monthly payment plan. He says he didn't realize how elaborate a procedure was required to stop getting the comics. He went off to college, not realizing the bills were still piling up (plus his family had moved), until he applied for a car loan and got turned down because a collection agency had red-flagged him in a computer database. No car. "First off, this comic place took advantage of kids like me. I did order the comics, but didn't understand the complexity of the arrangement. Then I moved and didn't get any more bills or comics. I had no idea this was building up, and no way of straightening it out that wouldn't cost a fortune and take months and months. Now my name is in some computer and I owe a lot of money. And the original company has changed hands a dozen times. Nobody there wants to hear about this. It's a nightmare."
AndyP wrote two months ago that he'd been arrested for vandalism after one Halloween mischief night when he was sixteen. An online tracking agency dug up the arrest -- even though it was a misdeanor offense, was supposed to be kept sealed, and had happened a decade earlier. "I was turned down because my company was working on a government project and we all needed a moderate security clearance. I never got it sorted out, because it was technically true. But jeez, it was a spray-painting incident. I guess in certain quarters, I'm unemployable for the rest of my life."
My e-mailers complain that even though appeals and application procedures exist, there are few checks on these agencies devoted to rummaging through people's pasts. Most of us have messed up a bit at one point or another, and now those incidents can be dredged up and used against us without much in the way of due process. Some are in blatant defiance of supposed federal consumer-protection laws, laws which seem porous, to say the least. Do people have the right to own the details of their own lives?
Students in particular have sent me a stream of stories like JD's, but the issue is getting much broader than student loans. Credit and collection companies run down past traffic tickets, immigration problems, child support payment histories, arrests and debts, all being fed into rapidly expanding databases as records are digitalized. Banks, insurers, employers and government agencies can hire these companies to run credit and security checks, then claim they have nothing to do with the resulting decisions. For the people trapped in this tightening net, it's a procedural nightmare.
Under the federal Fair Credit Reporting Act, consumers have the right to contact these companies and get some details of their supposed crimes or debts. But since almost any financial agency can enter information into these growing and increasingly-linked data banks, it can take weeks or months to figure out exactly what the alleged problems are.
You might be surprised to know what your credit "rights" are under the U.S. Fair Credit Reporting Act, especially considering how often they seem to be ignored. You can find the complete text of the FCRA 15 U.S.C. 1681-1681u at the Federal Trade Commission's web site. Among the protections provided to you by law:
- You can dispute inaccurate information with the consumer reporting agency (CRA) involved. Anyone who uses information from a CRA to take action against you -- denying an application for credit, insurance or employment -- must give you the name, address and phone number of the CRA.
- Inaccurate information must be corrected or deleted, assuming you can prove it's inaccurate and the CRA agrees it's inaccurate, but the CRA is not required to remove accurate data from your file unless it is outdated.
- You can dispute inaccurate items with the source of the information (if you can reach them).
- Outdated information may not be reported. In most, but not all cases, a CRA may not report negative information that is more than seven years old; ten years for bankruptices. (My e-mail suggests this is wantonly ignored. Some institutions don't always have to say precisely why they took an action, and in many cases, you'll never know).
- Your consent is required for reports that are provided to employers, or reports that contain medical information. And you may choose to exclude your name from CRA lists for unsolicted credit and insurance offers, assuming you know where the CRA is and what it's doing and can reach them.
(Note: Credit rights are also covered by the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act; thanks to reader William Lockwood for the reminder.)
It doesn't sound half bad, but trying reaching a CRA for yourself to test how easy it is or how responsive they are. Notice also that there are no restrictions on selling information or passing it along to agencies the CRA deems appropriate.
And where there are disputes, people often have no recourse but time-consuming and expensive legal action. Even then, there are no clear guidelines for resolving disputes. Simply because a consumer says he never incurred that debt, banks and other institutions aren't required to accept his word. There are no uniform national laws requiring credit companies to respond in a particular way. Although I have no hard statistics, many of the people e-mailing me said they paid these debts rather than fight or challenge them, simply because they couldn't afford not to and were afraid of a time-consuming process. "It's an unconscious kind of extortion," write Jan, a student from the University of Florida. "They don't threaten you, but they don't have to. How can you prove you didn't owe $100 bucks five years ago, and can you afford to have your loan held up in the meantime? Not me."
There's scant protection for people who might have been victims of theft or simple error, or who made a minor mistake earlier in their lives, or who need issues resolved quickly. Only perfect people, it appears, are safe.
Next: Technology is eroding some rights, as the reasons for collecting data on citizens grows. Is privacy worth keeping in the country that invented the idea? Some other countries think so.
Dignity and privacy are not being eroded by technology. They're being eroded by people. The technology is simply "how" they're doing it. Take the technology away, and as long as the people are still determined to violate each other, they will find a way to do it.
So you're describing a dysfunctional organization of disconnected entities that claim no responsibility for the system as a whole, and make no sense together...
:)
...much like the latest Katz article. Is this deconstructionism? Katz, are you getting literate on us?
Seriously, though, I'm not surprised; this is the logical extension of bureaucracy and outsourcing, two horrible recent trends. Not only does everyone give you the runaround, but since they're all independent companies, they all claim no responsibility for their actions, and give you no customer service.
In fact, it sounds like there should be a niche market for people who know what the procedure is here, and help you cut through red tape for a fee. That would help a lot more than, say, home equity loans...
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pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
It seems to me as if Katz's ranting is misplaced. He argues about the evils of collected information, showing why the collection is a bad thing by showing what is done with the information. Can't information be used in good ways?
My point is that information isn't necessarily bad; what's bad is how it's put to use. Katz complaines about how the information is used; instead of ranting against the information itself, why not criticize those who misuse information?
"Feel a glory in so rolling / on the human heart a stone" --E. A. Poe, "The Bells"
I have two friends who work for collection agencies. You should hear the other side of the story, the millions of people who accumulate debt and try to run away from it.
This reminds me, I have some overdue bills to pay... oops.
Moz.
see a Text Widget
Ironically some of the people who seem to bitch the most about privacy seem to be the same ones listing every detail about themselves on their personal web page.
There's no way around it - you have no privacy, deal with it.
Part of the problem is the general confidence people have in the computer. "Well, my computer says so, so I can't think any more about the subject." It's funny to deal with someone who is in front of a computer and doesn't agree with what it's saying.
"Hmm. This can't be right. But the computer says we owe you $77, so we'll get that taken care of" (paraphrased quote, actually happened to me this week when disputing something with AT&T).
It works the other way, however, far more often. "The computer says you are denied; I don't know why. Sorry, that's all I can do." Add to this that you're dealing with "drones" most of the time who are not empowered to make actual decisions, and you see why it's such an uphill battle to fix a problem once it shows up in these databases.
The burden of proof in these situations is yours. All you can do is be vigilant with your own records, from now on....
Not representing or approved by my company or anybody else.
These stories are all sad and all, but it is part of the dual-edged sword of technology. If people want the convenience of getting a nice email telling them the new CD from ... is out, and you get a 10% discount because our records show you bought 10 CDs in the last 12 months, then those people are also subjected to the risk that the system will get screwed up, and you'll get emails about some other artist, or no discount. This is really just one tiny part of the larger problem, that technology is being introduced for the sake of it, without thought to the social and privacy implications. I mean if these credit checks worked perfectly and it was easy to find out who originally collected the information and say "but I paid that on the right date, here's my receipt" and get the loan etc. approved, are the credit checks still a bad thing? Are they a better of two evils as opposed to having to walk into a bank manager's office and conjure up paperwork of the last few years to prove you are a good credit risk?
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Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
I personally think the last scene in Fight Club said it best.. I mean who didn't love watching TRW, Equifax and Visa blow up good. Seriously I was stuck in the Kafkaesque nightmare of trying to clear a loan once which was being blocked because My wife and daughter allegedly sued me for $35,000 when I was 12 and I never paid... these idiots put the information in my file based on name only. The worst thing was after fighting them for a month to remove it. It re-appeared a year later from York who got it from Equifax and then gave it back to them.
Hell, read Database Nation for a much better overview of these types of problems.
Best Slashdot Co
Trouble is, I wonder how they can show that even accurate information ten years ago leads to a bad customer today. They seem to be going overboard, where the risk vs reward calculation is falling out of their favor.
Sure, if someone did something two or three years ago, they might not have learned much, and may be liable to do it again.... but I find it hard to believe that actions that haven't been repeated in the past ten years (like the would-be teachers drunk driving conviction) show any correlation to the likeliness of them doing it today.
In the meantime, my fellow young people, keep your nose clean. incidentally, does Katz get paid by the word?
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
In the UK I had great credit, I had a credit card with a limit of 2000 quid (about 1/3 of my annual pay).
Now I moved to the US, earning 10 times as much and I have to *plead* with my bank to get a measily 700$ limit card.The cards are both Visa cards, you'd think that this web of knowledge would show me up as having a good record in the UK... But no they only want to use this extra research when it benefits them.
And Katz is saying that these people shouldn't be held reponsible for their actions, or that credit agencies and banks are somehow intruding on our privacy by finding this out? I can't beleive this!
Things like drunk driving will and should follow you around, you'll have to put it on all of your job applications, and employers and lenders can find out about it, and should be able to. Same with any sort of delinquency in the past. It will have an effect on the way that the banks will view you as a potential borrower whether or not you like it, it doesn't matter....
Iti s a matter of being responsible for one's own actions and not trying to hide under a "this is unfair" stance. I don't see the point of this artice.
As for this particular kid's problem... what the hell was he doing signing up for classes before his loans cleared? How would he have handled it if the loan was rejected for a legitimate reason?
A credit card of mine was stolen during a break-in once, and clearing the charges on the stolen card took me almost a year... so I know how frustrating the stituation can be, but a lot of people make things worse by actually relying on credit. Every financial advisor in the world will tell you the same thing: Live within your means. You should not carry an ongoing balance on your cards, and should only borrow long-term for a house, education, and maybe your car. As spiffy as the new Apple G4 may be, you should try to get along with your P133 Linux box unless you have the cash to buy something new.
If people did not overextend themselves on credit, debtor errors would be less of a personal tragedy, and more of a mere inconvenience.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
Furthermore I would like to congratulate Jon Katz by once again filling my screen top to beyond bottom. I would be happy to find a course in compact writing for you.
Sig (appended to the end of comments I post, 54 chars)
This article is ridiculous, considering certain key passages. Most of these stories have some sort of very special circumstance, that makes that person the victim. Not to mention, he has no hard facts or statistics, just a bunch of e-mails. Now the last time I talked to my english professor (Ph. D), the basis of an argument must have a solid foundation and the source must be credible(The Structure of Argument, p6). I consider e-mails that probably left out important facts and figures to be a credible source. I deem this FLAMEBAIT. He is trying to stir people up and soon we will have all sorts of looney's posting about how large institutions like CRAs, the government, big business, are horribly out of control and severely lacking any checks and balances. Why do people let this man write? Why is he so biased?
___________
I don't care what it looks like, it WORKS doesn't it!?!
The easist way to solve this is to not patronize companies that rely exclusivly on this hoax of a credit report value.
After being turned down for a car loan, I want to a smaller bank, explained my problem to them, and they approved me for a loan on the spot. And it was at a cheaper rate than the 'big bank' was planning on 'giving me' (Like they were doing me a favor! Arogant Bastards!)
Smaller institutions are more likely to actually READ your credit report, and give you a chance to explain why something is messed up. These places want your business. Let the big banks have thier procedures. It will end up costing them customers. At the rate things are going, they are going to start getting negative credit reports on people who have speeding tickets! When they stop writing loans, you can bet they will change thier tune!
I am about to begin looking to buy a townhouse, and started doing some research, and all of the books point out that you should check your credit reports for mistakes (obviously). I filed to get copies from the 3 major companies (Trans Union Credit, Experian, and Equifax) and discovered that 2 of the 3 had "minor" mistakes on them. One had an old drivers license number, and another had my last name mispelled AND had that I still owed $30 on a student loan (paid off 2 years ago, but the $30 would not have been due for probably another 5+ years) but it still was a mistake. Even these minor problems could possibly cause problems when applying for a mortgage. Anway, people should check their credit reports from ALL 3 of these major credit report agenceies to verify mistakes. I know that Mass residents are entitled to one free copy/year from each, as well as a few other states, but even if you are not, it is probably worth spending the $8/report on all three of these at least one time, and probably keep up every so often as well.
I personally have been 'blacklisted' for things that happened over 7 years previous, which they claim is the limit on credit reporting, I had to write multiple letters to get a house, even though I made 2-3x more than the loan officer even did.
It's a screwed up system, and in dire need of a trustbusting baseball bat to the head.
"See, we plan ahead! That way, we never have to do anything now."
I'm completely unable to get a credit card, even the ones that you pay $500 for to get $500 in credit. I own a successful business, I have employees, I pay my vendors. I pay all of my monthly bills: telephone, health insurance, cable, bank loan, etc., etc. Yet I'm always turned down for credit, because I have no credit. A catch-22.
Out of curiousity, I ordered a copy of my credit report about a year ago. It reported that I still owe on a house that I bought when I was 12, a car when I was 14, and some rather-pricey jewelry that I got when I was 15. I must have been one hell of a precocious youth.
Of course, I called the credit agency. They told me that it was a "computer error," and removed all of those from my record. At least that part was easy. What I want to know is how many of those credit checks brought up the same result. And if this information has propagated to other databases.
Credit baffles me. I hate it.
-Waldo
Bad information is all that's propagated - when I was living in the UK I had a VISA card with a 2000 pound limit, about 1/3 of my annoula pay. Now I move out to california all my credit dissapears, I had to plead with the company to get a debit card with a lousy 700$ limit - despite that fact that It's also a VISA card and my salary is 10 times what I was getting in my PhD. You'd think that VISA would be able to base my application on my UK history... but that doesn't count...
These databases only deal in bad news.
"Inaccurate information must be corrected or deleted, assuming you can prove it's inaccurate and the CRA agrees it's inaccurate, but the CRA is not required to remove accurate data from your file unless it is outdated. "
Why should I have to prove its innaccurate? Shouldn't the company that put the information in there prove its accurate?
How would you prove something is inaccurate? (i.e. something in there that says you owe $ to some company you never heard of that is now out of business)
Another problem with the system is that there are three major credit reporting agencies. So, you may have a clean slate at one, but the other has red flags all over the place. So you might get your credit checked through one agency and discover everything is fine, but the same check through another agency could turn up problems. In theory the agencies share info but not always.
Personally I recommend that everybody make a point of getting a copy of their credit report on a routine basis. If there is a problem it is much better to see it early on rather than get an unpleasant surprise when you are trying to buy a house, a car, or an education. There's several services out there that offer credit monitoring services that will report problems and give you quarterly updates of your information.
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This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
one of the 'rights' of consumers as listed was "Inaccurate information must be corrected or deleted, assuming you can prove it's inaccurate and the CRA agrees it's inaccurate, but the CRA is not required to remove accurate data from your file unless it is outdated."
why is it the consumers responsibility to prove the data is innacurate, especially when failure to do so amounts to the presumption of guilt? responsibility to prove money owed needs to lie with the creditor. what's to stop any creditor from just saying i owe then 100 dollars, then, and make me prove that i don't?
10 years ago i had my wallet and checkbook stolen. i cancelled all accounts w/in 2 hours, and in the following 3 days, 3 checks were written from my then cancelled account. verisign of course recieved information that i was passing bad checks. after presenting them with certified bank statements saying i was not responsible and a police report, they were still denying my checks, and this was before the days of cash cards - check, cash, or credit card were your only options. since i was in college, i didn't have much credit, so i had to rely on checks to get by. they had effectively taken away my only means of paying for a living for a number of months, reglardless of my efforts 'proving' that i was not responsible. finally it went to litagation - funny how quickly the issue was resolved when a summons appeared.
This is a very important point that he didn't mention at all. The result of all these databases being joined together has been, at least topically, a great convenience to consumers. Credit reports can be had almost instantaneously, etc.
Whether we (personally) feel that this is an invasion of privacy doesn't matter. The consumer (as a whole) has accepted the tradeoff of convenience versus privacy.
I'd like to see some hard statistics (not anecdotal evidence from emails that Katz gets) about how often there are mistakes in credit files like this. I know about five years ago there was a big push to make it easier for consumers to get access and change their personal information.
It's a simple fact that when you have a system that supports several hundred million consumers, there are going to be errors. Should we throw the whole thing out and go back to doing everything with paper and pencil? I don't think anyone would want that.
LL
"If you are falling, dive." -Joseph Campbell
The Credit Reporting Agency("CRA") is blaming it on the reporter. The company that refuses a loan/job/rental blames it on the CRA, but not the particular item on the report. But, they ask for an explaination of everything.
A lawsuit for libel is impossible here. Not that you can show that it's libel, but how do you show damages? That you didn't get the loan/rental/job? They will argue that it's not just their report.
Fight Spammers!
I think that companies that falsely report debts should have to pay the victim of thier mistake. Luckily I haven't had any past credit problems, but I've heard reparing inaccuracies can be a pain. What really worries me is all of these Pre-approved credit card applications that get sent in the mail. I move a lot as a student, and I worry that whoever lives in an apartment that I just left will see all of the credit applications, and find out that I have good credit (USPS isn't really good at forwarding mail), and try to get a Credit Card in my name.
Also, I don't understand where past criminal activity such as misdemenors have anything to do with credit, or with future employment. I believe that employers should be able to find out about felonies, but if you got drunk when you were 19, and stupidly drove home, you shouldn't be banned from working at a nice job for the rest of your life...
I want my rights back. I was actually using them when our government stole them after 9/11.
Past performance is no indication of future behaviour. I'll put that at the bottom of all my contracts...
Bob the Martian"Where there's a pyramid, there's a pint of fish"
Its all said and done before and not much is going to change. Instead of offering just horror stories with a quickie little link on who to contact, something most people will take a second look at if people were so concerned they would do much more about about such as mailing their local representative in office and complaining.
Sure we can waste our lives clicking away on slashdot stories something that can take a few minutes at time, but then many want to bitch about no one taking a stand when all it takes is a few minutes to send a quick email to congress and express your gripes. With enough concerns raised they will act on issues.
So your life has been slightly changed, well its your life so what are you going to do sit around an mope about it or take initiative and correct these issues. Credit companies are just companies a business just like any other and can be reported to places like the Better Business Beauru of other agencies. Contact them and have them remove your questioned info and go on with life. Unless laws are set in place it will continue, who will change those laws, people change those laws, and without any forseen problems by those in power to change them will leave them as is, bottom line.
Republican National Committee Spoof
360 degrees of Karma
I used to work for a small consumer finance agency, where I'd review credit applications, look at credit bureau reports, and did telephone collections. Unless things have changed, and they either have for the case of student loans, these kids dont' know all their rights or options.
"They don't threaten you, but they don't have to. How can you prove you didn't owe $100 bucks five years ago, and can you afford to have your loan held up in the meantime? Not me."
You don't have to prove you didn't owe $100 five years ago, they should prove it. At the very least they need to provide a signed piece of paper (promissary note) saying "I owe you $xxx.xx" If they can't produce this, or some other evidence then you don't owe them anything. But in your case you probably don't have much time for all this fighting. All I can suggest is contact your state banking commission and file a complaint.
If you've ever been turned down for credit, you're entitled to a free credit report. Two credit reporting agencies are Equifax and Experian Contact them, and get a copy of your report. Its kind of tricky to read if you've never seen one, but they include instructions and everyone should check their credit report once a year.
If something doesn't look right on your credit report, challenge it. The lending institution has to respond within a certain amount of time (30-45 days?), or it will be wiped out of your credit report. That is, unless the law about this has changed since I've worked in the collections field.
That means, you do go out and get a copy of your credit report every year, right? (Depending on which state you live, it might be even free.)
Make sure everything inside of it is what you expect. If not, call them up can fix it. Fix possible problems before they become real ones. You will need to do this before you buy a house, or car, so learn now while everything is still okay.
You won't believe what you see: my wife had credit charges from her mother, just because their names are similar (not even the same!). We had to call up and have these removed.
Additionally, you will see lots of bottom-feeding banks pinging your report for "pre-approved" offers. There were literally hundreds of credit checks by people that had no fucking business looking in there. Thankfully, you can call 1-888-5OPTOUT to stop this insanity. Do it now. They will mail you a form which you need to sign, but do it! Watch your "pre-approved" credit card snailmail spam drop to zero.
I can explanate how to administrate your network. You must configurate and segmentate it, so it can computate.
Moore's Law applies to everybody. It applies to Equifax, Experian, and Trans Union the same way it applies to .mp3 files and massive works of Free Software. It applies to your police and your insurance companies as much as it applies to your cool videogames.
If you want to get educated, here's a good place to start: http://www.creditscoring.com.
Just a quick note from a PA resident regarding deer and cars. I don't believe there has ever been a time when I drove more than 20 miles in this state without seeing a struck deer on the side of the road somewhere (or several). This state is packed to the brim with these animals, and almost everyone I know has hit one at least once. To punish someone because of that is insane, blame the state and the anti-gun, anti-hunters (pretty much anit-everything) people who don't issue enough deer hunting licenses and who have turned hunting from a proud tradition into a hated, maligned activity. Now you have to deal with the over population of deer and the damage they cause.
Finkployd
Credit bureaus play the same game with credit scores (which, incidentally, the FCRA does not require be disclosed to the consumer). They know that creditors use a cutoff score, but they maintain the pleasant fiction in their written documents that this isn't done, skirting the harsher government regulation they so richly deserve. Until regulations tighten, this wink-wink, nudge-nudge arrangement will only get worse.
I just found out that the lawyers will use these same resources to track down the birthfather of the baby we want to adopt. If they find him, which used to be much harder to do, he will be provided with lawyers by the state to help him fight the adoption.
Either Andy isn't telling the whole story, or the company didn't understand government security rules. Having an arrest on one's record, particularly as a juvenile, doesn't necessarily disqualify you for a clearance. I personally know of people who've received extremely high clearances who have arrest records. What the government wants to avoid is having anything that can be used to blackmail you. There was one case where a guy with a high clearance was having an affair and the goverment security people found out about it. They offered to let him keep the clearance if he'd tell his wife about it in their presence. He took the offer. Security clearances take a long time to process (up to a year) and the employee is typically given a provisional low-level clearance after a quick investigation so that they can start working. Perhaps turning up this minor crime in the run-thru made this impossible, in which case Andy'd have been sitting around for a year while they did the full investigation and final determination.
I agree that having derogatory information in a database for all eternity is a problem. Perhaps we ought to expunge everything after 10 years as is done with credit records.
"If I have seen further than other men, it is by stepping on their glasses." - Michael Swaine
It's called filing for bankruptcy.
Since we're talking about an actual debt here, and not just a "debt to society", the people in question should make a good-faith effort to pay that debt. Then they can start building credit.
I mean, really, what happens when you steal money normally? Of course we're not going to give you more money to steal if we can absolutely help it!
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pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
One credit card company decided to "write off" a debt of thousands of dollars to my name on my credit report. A thief had stolen "credit card checks" from my mailbox and had cashed them without any problems. When I found out that the police had captured her with one of my checks, I immediately called the credit card company to inform them of the issue. They said that everything would be taken care of and I was only responsible for up to $50.00. A few months later (and still today, 8 years after) they demanded that I pay the money, even though they knew the money was stolen. It's still on one of my credit reports and I can't get the Credit Reporting Agency to remove it.
The credit card companies don't care about their customers, they don't even want to prosecute credit card fraud. We don't have any rights as consumers. We are just that, consumers, not human begings!
I will volunteer to help support his family if someone will run him over withg a big truck. The answer to this problem is SOOOO SIMPLE. Take the credit analysis company to small claims court for the maximum and charge them with LIABLE. Claim that the company is damaging your reputation by claiming false debt. Make them appear in court or default for 5k, and when they do come to court you will get all the details or they will drop it. I know this works as I've done it twice. Got 5k and an apology once and no money and the alleged debt deleted by a judge the second time :)
There are some poeple who could make it their mission to work against these credit agencies, some are hackers, some are more extreme.
One small thing everyone can do to create change is take those pre-paid envelopes that regularly come in junk snailmail, stuff them with blank forms or paper, and return them to the junk mailer.
This causes the junkmailer to pay twice for their junk, once to send it, and once to get it back. Plus all the time it takes for their staff to open and discard the blank returns. It not much more than a raised middle finger, but at least it is something, and it hits them where it hurts, the bottom line.
To the Moon!
http://www.beefjerky.com
Inaccurate information must be corrected or deleted, assuming you can prove it's inaccurate and the CRA agrees it's inaccurate, but the CRA is not required to remove accurate data from your file unless it is outdated.
Nice Law, Guilty until proven innocent. Every person is a criminal if accused by some Corporate accuser - niiiiceeee.
Was I annoyed? You betcha. But I was more annoyed at never being given any notice of my debt over four years.
What did I do about it? Simple, I called the back, asked them to send me a statement, and paid it.
Will it follow me? Probably. Do I care? No
I pay my bills, am about to close out two credit cards and a car payment, and make good money. I'm looking at buying a house right now.
Yes, people have their credit trashed (I used to have terrible credit) but it isn't the end of the world. It's usually nothing that honest work can't take care of.
But maybe I'm not being reactonary enough.
Laplace
The middle mind speaks!
I hate when people tell tell me it is in the computer it must be right. People mis use technologly all the time. The mis use of technology is always a problem. The technology was always there to do this stuff was around years ago but it was only held for the big companies. Now anyone with a computer and some brians and balls can do it. That is the real problem.
Here in the Netherlands (and more generally in the whole of Europe) these things are much beter controlled. There are very strict rules about what information a company is allowed to keep about you and what they are allowed to do with it. They are obligated to tell you on request what information they have about you and they must ask your permission to give the information to anyone else.
Also, there is exactly _one_ credit history agency in the Netherlands. They only know how much you owed and when, but not to whom or what for. Records of debts are destroyed after five years, so after five years there is no way anyone can know you ever had any debts unless you tell them about it.
Yet, when we went to get a car loan from our Credit Union, we were told we couldn't get the "A" rate because our credit wasn't good enough. Those "scores" that pop up on bankers' screens really, really baffle me. I asked for an explanation for why the score was what it was, and the standard reply was "You must have something bad in your report, but the Computer figures out your score and I have no clue how it does it." I knew that our reports were clean...
Morons! I would have pushed the issue and figured out exactly how that score got computed, but I shopped around and got a great rate from the dealer, and promptly forgot about the whole affair until now.
Lessons learned:
Get all your credit reports BEFORE getting loans on your own.
If that's not possible, definitely ask for more information if you get declined for a loan and get your report then!
If you know your credit is good, shop around!
It has been a long time since I was a student and I wasn't too clear on these things even back then, however: my impression is that situations like that are common, and forced by various deadlines -- usually the schools' deadlines, but for international students, it can be their visas. All sorts of wierd-ass catch-22 situations result from policies like "you must be a registered student to qualify (for this thing you need to register)".
I went to a private institution (not a state school, where they don't seem to give a rats ass) and I have heard many horror stories from the nice Financial Aid people about what various students have had to go through (generally in the context of the nice FinAid people trying desperately to rescue some kid's education). There are only several thousand ways to be fucked over (wrt paying tuition); a fluke credit report is only one of them, and not necessarily any less just than some of the other reasons you can be turned down for a loan or grant.
Your best strategy is always to keep on Being A Student to the extent you can, right up to the moment they throw you out. If you can't register officially, talk to the profs and sit in the classes anyways so that when/if the money clears up, you won't be behind in your studies. Stay on campus if at all possible -- going home (unless home is very nearby) makes it damn hard to walk into the FinAid office and fill out forms. Etc.
You're kidding right? Is that actually true? Most kids don't have credit, right? If you're under 18, you basically can't have credit in your name, because (unless an emancipated minor) your signature is legally worthless.
-*- Any technology indistinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced -*-
I was the victim of an inaccurate background check. Five years ago, I was hired for a job in NYC for which a background check was required. I had to give my notice to my old company before the check could be begun. I did so. Two weeks later, after my last day at my old company and as I was about to leave Chicago with my stuff packed up in my car, I got a phone call that there was a problem with the background check -- there was a bench warrent for my arrest for failure to appear to answer a drug charge. This was a Thursday and I was scheduled to begin work on Monday.
Now I've never been arrested and I've never failed to appear before a judge when summoned. The company was going to check into it further, but they wanted me to bring proof that there *wasn't* a warrant out for my address.
I called the local police who said "Come on down and we'll work it out." I wasn't stupid enough for that one. I called the office of the State's Attorney and asked them to look up the warrant. At first they said that they couldn't tell me anything. After explaining my story the guy said he shouldn't tell me this, but there were no warrents out for my arrest.
I felt more confident, but still had nothing to show my new employer. I went to the local police station and they took my ID and ran a warrant check. They said there were no warrants, but they couldn't give me anything in writing.
I left the next morning and called the company from the halfway point. They said that Equifax (a credit reporting company) had to send someone to the courthouse. Don't bother reporting for work on Monday.
I drove the rest of the way to New York not having a job. In the end it worked out alright. The warrant was for someone with the same name but different address and date of birth. I started the new job on Wednesday (and was paid for the two days that I didn't work while they were checking out the report.)
But it could have been much worse. Equifax sent me a copy of the report listing the warrant for my address, but it had disclaimers all over it that they are not responsible for the accuracy of the information. If I had lost that job because of a slanderous background check, would I have had any recourse?
I have discovered a truly marvelous sig, unfortunately the sig limit is too small to contain i
My girlfriend received a bill from the state of Lousiana claiming that she owed them back income taxes. Since she's never worked there, that's a bit of a stretch. It was a small enough amount of money that we paid it rather than risking having them put it on a credit report.
These things are usually tracked by SS number.
Illegal aliens and identity shifters just pull
a number out of thin air (perhaps yours) for
their purposes.
I can relate: I am in a similar case as yours (but went from France to the US two years ago). I'm on "the next best thing to a diplomatic visa" (yeah right) which translates into "you don't even count as a US resident so you can't have a SSN". My employer also has a credit union, but I have been fighting an uphill battle to higher my credit limit, and end up having to charge a lot of my expenses on a foreign credit card. Yippi.
The worse part is that companies keep on spamming me (phone, snail-mail, e-mail) with 'pre-approved' cards (read: pre-approved for anyone except me because without a SSN I don't _exist_). *grumble*
Some employers now check your credit report
for employment. Now it is mainly to root out
thieves. but is the job market softens in a
recession, they may use any anomaly as an excuse
not to hire.
Everything seems to have worked out fine, except that it inexplicably took over a month to get 3 of the bills forwarded, at which point some nasty letters had been sent. Consumers Energy sent my name to a collections agency (I'm still less than 2 months overdue, here), and the next time I applied for a credit card I got rejected for "excessive debt" and "failure to pay" some bills.
Excessive? The bill was $109. And I was making $48,000 per year at the time. AND the whole reason I didn't pay on time was because I was busy moving and the mail forwarded so slowly.
Another example of our tax dollars hard at work. The father doesn't probably never cared about the child, and where it is. Birthfathers, aren't necessarily the dad. Good luck in your adoption.
I want my rights back. I was actually using them when our government stole them after 9/11.
Assuming the above is correct (which it sounds), and the credit reporting agencies are denying a basic right on which the country of the united states was founded on.. How can an average consumer go about getting it changed, if not for everybody then just for himself?
:)
Not to sound like a complete shit, but what about those of us who DIDN'T vandalize somebody else's property?
If there are enough people who didn't do such a thing when they were young to pick from, why take even a minimal risk with somebody who did? I spent my teenage years quietly doing what I was supposed to do, obeying my parents, trying to work hard, and learning everything I could. Why SHOULDN'T I be preffered over somebody who spray painted "SuX0R my B4LLz" on the side of a building?
Now, the point that he was a minor and the record should have been sealed is a different matter. (of course, it could depend on the state as to whether the record is sealed or not, or to the amount of damage the vandalism caused) If that is the case, then the guy shouldn't have any problems, and should count himself lucky for that fact.
But to wave the "wild and crazy youth" flag and expect everybody to salute it is poor thinking. There are enough people who were mature enough at 16 to understand that other people's property is to be respected, not trashed. And they SHOULD be preffered over a reformed hooligan.
Course, that's just my opinion
Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
Credit and driving record databases are now being
used to screen car rentals at some locations.
Since it costs a couple dollars each check,
you don't find out at reservation time, but at
a rental counter in an alien city. The rental
companies have decided its worth screwing a few
precent of their customers at savings of the
bad apples.
Driving record databases are sold by states mainly
for insurance company purposes. But now their is
a secondary market in car rental screening and
general credit screening.
He soon became very rich by selling whiskey that had been mellowed through 10 feet of hard maple charcoal.
=-=-=-=-=
"Do you hear the Slashdotters sing,
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Oh bother.
I don't have any credit cards yet, but one thing that i do with my ATM card and Debit card is to sign the back like your supposed too. I always leave enough room on that writing strip so that i can write "See Drivers License" (yes it can be done. you can fit two lines of writing on that strip) This makes it so that when you are in a store, when they check your signature, they will usually ask for your ID, and you can show them your picture.
While this doesn't help any for online transactions, it does help if your card gets stolen. Anyway most cards have a policy of non liability for fraudulent transactions.
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. --Sun-Tzu
Anybody know how a person or company gets into a position to add data to credit report databases? I can envision a few (thousand) credit agency executives, bank officials, powerful politicians, and et cetera, suddenly finding little nasties on their credit reports one day....
Recently, I applied for a home loan so that I could stop pissing my money into someone else's pocket. I had a copy of my credit report, and had shown it to my mortgage broker, who said it was one of the cleaner credit reports he'd seen (maybe he was blowing smoke up my arse, who knows). Never mind that I got this credit report for free because I was turned down for a credit card (the Dilbert card if you must know).
Here's the rub: my broker, thinking that I had pretty damn good credit, waited to check things out a final time before applying for the mortgage. Of course, to do this, one has to check with every agency that might have given me a loan in the past, etc. Turns out a federal agency in charge of student loans said that I had an outstanding, unpaid student loan of some largish amount. What?!? I starved in college. I never had any loan. So I called them up. Turns out that is was just my SS#. The name, birthdate, etc. attached to the loan didn't match any of my information. To prove it, I sent them copies of my passport, birth certificate, a letter from my current employer about yadda yadda. Sure, they got it cleared up. It was pretty cut and dried.
But . . .
Could someone please explain to me why a federal agency couldn't have checked my federal tax number and have seen that Joe Public, who went to (I kid you not) beauty school on a student loan, isn't me?
Just think. Anyone can make up a SS# to get a student loan. And no one will check.
Sure, I put a lot of personal information on my web page. Information I want you to know. But that does not include my tax numbers, my credit card numbers, or my early experimentation with drug culture and the resulting arrest 8 years ago! Funny, when I say it's my personal information, that phrase implies ownership. I guess it's not really true.
Do not touch -Willie
No here is a beauty. And yes it is a college loan problem to boot.
After finishing my undergraduate degree, I was offered an RA to
continue on to get my graduate degree (master's program in this case).
Well, this offer came up late and I was ill prepared and uninformed
about how grad school worked. At my institution graduate students are
considered full-time if they are taking 13 credit hours per semester.
Unbelievable! What I did not release is that graduate student pad
this total by taking "thesis" hours. Of course, I assumed a rational
world and did not even realize there was minimum number of hours to
make the student loan people happy as well.
To make a long, painful story somewhat shorter, I was screwed. It was
too late to sign up for more hours and my student loans were coming
due. To this day I still live in an apartment on a dual professional
income because the whole credit situation is ridiculous. I keep
hoping that someone would have the intelligence to understand the
situation and the courage to do something about it!
(I occasionally think about the Bloom County episode where Steve
Dallas ended up in the hacker tank and had his credit threatened. I
had never before realized how scary that threat could really be.)
The real silver bullet to good programs is caffeine; lots and lots of caffeine! *twitch, twitch*
Jesus, People. Be RESPONSIBLE for your actions. You can bet your ass that if I find out that my kid's babysitter had a dwi, 10 years ago or 50, I'd not let them drive with my kids. I'm sorry, but that person made a mistake, and I'd be more than willing to give them a chance, but...
Look at it like this...would you rather know information about who/what you are dealing with? Or leave it up to some arbitrary set of rules that guarantees privacy from revealing to interested parties? I have some bad credit trailing me around, and a FELONY ASSAULT from when I was 18. I can't vote, can't own a firearm, most likely can't teach or get any moderate security job, but it's MY OWN DAMNED FAULT. _I_ did it, and I've learned to live with it. People who made wiser choices with their youth and their credit DESERVE perks and better jobs and firearms, if they want them. I wouldn't agree that they're *better* than I am, but i would agree that they have shown a more responsible history than I.
Who among the people with clean credit histories and driving records and clean rap sheets is whining about this??
Technology allows us to know the truth about who we deal with and in whom we place our trust. If, sometimes, that truth isn't always accurate, and you REALLY care, fix it. It's possible. If not, than it's probably right on the money.
Any sufficiently well-organized Government is indistinguishable from bullshit.
I'll post a better one.
;)
I was only supposed to copy one line. It copied the whole thing. Windows sux, I'm switching to Linux
Due to sloppy record-keeping on their part, the charge re-appeared (with late fees) three times over the next several months.
Needless to say, that credit company no longer has my business.
I now belong to a credit union, and do all my banking, borrowing, and car buying through them... best decision I ever made.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
And therein lies the problem -- according to the laws which are supposed to apply to everybody, a disclaimer is not a magic shield against a slander action. (That is, you can't just assert any old thing and CYA by inserting weasel words like "alleged".)
Apparently, credit agencies have gotten themselves a special loophole based on the rationalization that they'd otherwise be unable to risk reporting any negative information. This is nonsense -- they can buy liability insurance just like anyone else in a similarly exposed position, and have the cost thereof rise and fall with their error rate -- presented as a fig leaf to cover a political special favor.
/.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
One day, I had invented the thing which we will refer to as IT... the greatest revolution of our time, greater than the Internet, sliced bread, and Larry Ellison combined. So I took a stroll down to the local bank so I could get financing to create prototypes of IT, so I could pitch IT to filthy rich computer billionaires, so I could have a book written about IT, so I could get on the cover of Wired and Time Magazine, knocking off that loser boy Shawn Fanning...
But then I went down there and found out I once had an unlicensed copy of Windows 3.1 on my old 486 in the closet, and I owed Microsoft $350 or else I wouldn't get the loan to create IT.
The funny thing is, I installed Slackware on that box years ago!
Unfortunately, Microsoft themselves didn't remember me owing them $350... when I sent them the money, they thought it was for something else, and send me pictures back of a hot naked sweaty Steve Ballmer. As such I'm scarred for life, and all the proceeds from IT now must go toward my therapy.
Reportedly I'll be seeing the same shrink as that kook Jeff "Hemos" Bates.
"Hi, I never got my statements at my new address, and I overdrew on my account. I'm paying it now. Will there be any reprecussions?"
"Well, it will show up as a late payment on your credit history."
"But it was your problem, not mine!"
"There's nothing I can do, but it will come off eventually."
"How long?"
"Oh, about 7 years."
I left feeling quite upset, but figured that one late payment couldn't hurt me that much. Over the next three years I was denied for every single credit check ever performed on me. I got one credit card, a $200 limit card, and only because they sent it to my parents' house. I couldn't believe that this had happened! But when I applied for an apartment lease, I learned the awful truth.
When BayBank did not receive my payment, they wrote it off as an unpaid loan. However, they never marked the loan as paid when I settled the account. So I had a defaulted loan on my credit history, which is the worst thing you can have besides bankruptcy. Moreover, BayBank had been bought by BankBoston had been bought by FleetBoston, so no one knows where this phantom loan is! After four frustrating days on the phone, I had discovered that no one would undo the damage, even if I paid off the "loan" again!
In the end, I retained a credit attorney to challenge the $150 loan and fix my credit. For over $1000.
So my theory is the following: credit in this country is purposely complex. The reason is that if you need to retain a lawyer to keep your credit history clean, then only the rich can afford to do so. The poor, on the other hand, must cope with bad credit. Because of this, they will pay higher rates on credit cards and loans, and find themselves in debt more frequently.
The credit system in the US is designed to keep the poor in a perpetual state of indentured servitude.
I'm in the habit of making up random SS numbers when people ask for them -- so much easier than the old 'Do I *have* to supply it?' routine.
//
Anyway, I'm in the process of getting an AT&T cell, and they ask for the last 4 digits, which I promply made up. You know what? The sales droid told me "Sorry sir, that's not what I have here in the computer". WTF?
Of course, I went straight to the head-droid-in-charge and asked what the deal was. She told me that they bought my SS# from a credit agency, which didn't make me too pleased.
Anyway, when I told her that I made up SS numbers all the time, she got real upset. Told me I could screw up my credit reports, etc.
I was happy to remind her that it's a credit world, I don't need credit, I don't want credit, and I've got people lining up begging me to take it. The only thing I might screw up was the AT&T database, and that really didn't keep me up at night.
We went round & round for almost 10 minutes -- it was a *lot* of fun.
call att.tweek("garbage keys")
Identity theft -- theres almost no way to protect against it ...
And then theres totally weird shit... my brother was arrested for hit and run for an accident he was never in because some scam artist decided he looked like a good mark that day ... (Person gets you arrested for felony hit and run and says, -- um, -- if you pay us, 1000$ we won't file these charges against you (in CA they have the option sometimes) ... you can probably prove you weren't there but then you have to go to criminal court, hire a lawyer ... ).
Free Techno/Jazz/DNB/MI Music by guys obsessed with monkeys!
1-888-5OPT-OUT
. asp
Call them, then listen to the options:
"Press 1 to be removed from marketing lists for 2 years"
(forgot what 2 was)
"Press 3 to be removed from marketing lists *permanently*"
Isn't it funny how they hide the "permanent" option?
From http://www.transunion.com/General/MarketingOptOut
"If you want your name and address removed from all mailing lists offered by the
main consumer credit reporting agencies: Trans Union, Experian, Equifax and
Innovis, call 888-5OPTOUT (888-567-8688), or write to the following address:
Trans Union LLC's Name Removal Option
P.O. Box 97328
Jackson, MS 39288-7328
Requests should include the following information:
First, middle, and last names (including Jr., Sr., III)
Current address
Previous address (if you've moved in the last six months)
Social Security Number
Date of birth
Signature
If you opt-out, you will no longer appear on direct marketing lists offered by
these four credit reporting agencies. However, you may continue to receive
commercial mailings based on lists from other sources. "
This is common EU law
The problem is that these credit reporting agencies have NO accountability. If they lie about you, YOU have to prove them wrong. You are guilty until proven innocent.
Corporation is the idea that you can treat a company like a person in the eyes of the law, but unfortunately there is no accountability that goes with this. If a PERSON slanders you, they owe you damages. If a PERSON murders someone, they go to prison. If a Credit Reporting Agency screws you, they aren't taken to task on it.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
Most of the examples shown here concern college students with debts 4-5 years old. This would place most people into the age range of a minor. This is typicaly 18 years or younger in the US with exceptiong differing in each state. As a minor any contract that you enter into is voidable at your choice. You simply return that goods offered in consideration for the contract, the comic books, music or whatever. This behavior legal shows that you have voided your contract and therefore do not owe any debt. Of course this is only useful if you made the contract as a minor and there might also be aditional rules based on your state. Simply put though, you don't have to be held responsible for contracts that you entered into as a minor.
Not just you; every Anonymous Coward.
Background: I worked as a programmer on the Royal Bank of Scotland's credit system for 3 years
In the UK we have the Data Protection Act. It allows anyone to request any company to give them a copy of ALL data held about them for a nominal fee (under US$20).
The best bit, however, is that you can legally demand that they correct any inaccuracies- be they factually incorrect, or merely misleading.
Once you track down the company giving you a dodgy credit rating, you do a DPA request on them and if they're telling porkies, demand that they correct it.
If they company can prove that their data is correct they can continue supplying it, but in that case you have the option of demanding that they supply a short written statement prepared by you every time they supply the data you believe to be misleading (eg. mitigating circumstances).
I actually had to code a program that would display "bad" creditors' prepared statements- the bank was legally obliged to display these statements on-screen to whoever requested credit data about such people.
Okay so it doesn't solve every problem but it definitely does help.
--
Andrew Oakley - www.aoakley.com
This is true, and I have my own story to prove it:
About 2 years ago I applied to rent an apartment. They ran a credit check, and said my credit wasn't "perfect" and therefore I could not move in. It was the only apartment available in the area and I HAD to move immediately. The leasing office wouldn't give me a copy of the report, but told me about it. I got a copy from the agency, Equifax.
Stated at the top: Birthdate - xx/xx/1975
One credit item stated:
Creditor: Macy's
Amount: $xxx.xx
Date issued: xx/xx/1968
Apparently I was issued a credit card before I was born, and since I used to work for MasterCard, I know that this was before credit cards were even invented! I called Equifax, they wouldn't remove it even though it's impossible. After a dozen phone calls to Macy's, someone there sent a letter to Equifax and they removed it.
Point being: the CRA was able to publisize my "bad" credit when the supposed credit problem isn't even feasable! Infuriated doesn't express how I felt. This one had nothing to do with technology; only lack of compassion, lack of caring, and hunger for money.
Developers: We can use your help.
The burden of proof should be on the credit reporting agency, and it isn't.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
anybody have a link to a place that shows you your credit rating?
Why, oh why, can't the credit reporting agencies be sued for slander?
They will continue the current practice for as long as it is profitable to do so. Their system now is to take whatever information companies pay them to take and dump it into a database. Proof and error checking be damned. They just say, "We're not responsible."
Well, if I go around spreading lies, I am responsible, doubly so if I do it without even attempting to verify any facts.
Unfortunately, those denied credit are generally those who can't afford to launch a legal attack against a well funded opponent.
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
Many of these "return-postage-provided" envelopes don't have a limit on the weight of the package. Think about it for a sec...........ahhhhhhhhh, just glue it to a nice big brick and drop it in the mail box. Especially nice way of satisfying yourself if a company is pissing you off.
Not that I encourage such anarchistic methods of revenge.
"Share your knowledge. It's a way to achieve immortality." -- Dalai Lama
I have my own woes .. victim of red tape .. and it cost me well over $10k to get it fixed. :P im in a hurry.) .. it was too late. I was enrolled in school, but as far as the loan companies were concerned, I wasn't. I routienly recieved letters to my DORM ROOM ADDRESS, saying .. now that you are out of school, don't you think you should pay your bills.? .. with 2 more years of school, and no solution on the horizon, the loans went into default. (the original loans were 2 semester loans of $1200 each .. in federal student grants) .. and promptly sent them a check for $1000 (the remaining balance). Sallie Mae cashed it, but the person crediting my account forgot a zero. Needless to say .. I now had a deliquent payment, and by the time I was able to get them to AGREE it was their error (involving an attourney) THAT loan went into default. (i certainly wansnt going to give them an extra $900 for their mistake) .. its on my credit reports, becuase the company they 'sold' it to .. is now out of business, and can't be reached to verify that the debt was paid. .. take loans from family, or work through school .. DONT get any student loans. These problems took me over 8 years to fix .. and im JUST beginning to get my credit fixed. .. or the 3 paid off car loans. .. i said 8 years .. past the 7 year deadline, becuase if there is ANY activity on a debt ..(even if you pay it off. or if its sold to another company) it resets the 7 year counter. so they can keep this stuff going forever.
Student loans . that was the culperate. (please don't flame me for spelling mistakes, and say you didn't get your $$ worth
I attended Marist College on a full scholarship for 2 years, then I transferred to CT State University (Central) and thats where the trouble started. A state school, they didnt send some kind of paperwork or something, and when they tried to fix it
Needless to say
by the time I had a stable job, and had finished school, both were in default, and I paid roughly $7500 to pay them off (all at once)
My 2nd problem was a third student loan through Sallie mae. (for my senior year) for $2400.
After my schooling (i was hit by a car) i recieved a large settlement (far from fair since I couldnt walk for MONTHS). this is what allowed me to pay the previous loans (and their STAGGERING collection fees) I figured I would try to get my remaining loan covered
while THAT one i didnt have to pay anything for
god bless red tape.
my advice to future students
funny how they never seem to report all the bills i *DO* pay on time
if anyone notices
--Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum, non erravi pernicose!
something else should be added here. General lack of distrust and strict rules promotes bad behavior when overdone. If everyone around me tells me I can't be trusted, then why should I bother trying to always be honest? Might as well act the way I'm expected to.
I completely agree with your point of not spending money you don't have. Creditors are free to give money to those they wish, but the customer needs to be wise. I think the assumption that the common person can not be trusted is promoting the fraud which in turn promotes the feelings of distruct; it's an endless cycle.
Developers: We can use your help.
The system, as is, works fairly well. Yes, there are problems, and I'll address those. First, I'll deal with the Katzian whining:
Everyone knows that mail-order CD/comic warehouses try to rip you off. If you were stupid or greedy enough to think you could get 12 CDs for $1 or whatever and never be obligated for more, you deserve the hassle (especially since artists generally don't get royalties for CDs sold at a discount like that).
The deer guy? I lived somewhere with shitloads of deer, too (there were 19 on my lawn once), and I never hit any. To some degree, it's luck, but it's also a test of reflexes. The insurance company sees two claims in six months, and figures that either a) you suck at driving, b) you like hitting deer, or c) you drive at risky times in risky places. Consequently, you end up having to pay more for insurance. You still got insurance, it just cost more.
All the other people are being nailed for offenses they actually did commit. Drunk driving, and she only got a 60-day suspension? What the fuck? She could easily have killed someone. I wasn't that stupid when I was 16 or 18. Personally, I don't think she should be allowed to drive until she's 30. Getting turned down for a job seems like a small price to pay. Funny how everyone went nuts over Bush's DWI conviction, but it's somehow OK if you're just Joe Citizen.
The real problem here is not that these agencies exist and do what they do, but that it isn't easy enough for people to check and correct their own records. People should be notified whenever an "incident" is added to their record, and given the opportunity to dispute it. Jon Katz should be complaining about the errors, not the actual collection of the data. If you fuck up, there are consequences. Learn that, and everyone will be better off.
Pissing and moaning about this shit happening is not gonna solve anything. Getting off our lazy-boys and doing something about it will (maybe).
But then again, a majority of us Amerikkkans don't care unless it affects us directly, and one person against a corporate entity is like pissing in the pacific.
....Jon Katz reporting for 20-20, dateline, Jerry Springer, Sally Jesse........
What I'd like to know is, if anyone knows who in Canada looks after credit info. I know I could go to my bank and get it, but just wondering who actually looks after it, and how to get in contact with them (a website would be wondeful)
Thanks
You can get it here, although I haven't checked it out myself. I'm too afraid of the massive credit problems associated with my name and don't want to tip them to the fact that I'm not dead as I have claimed.
"Share your knowledge. It's a way to achieve immortality." -- Dalai Lama
Your attitude amounts to "The system is perfect, it's the people who screwed up even if they were not personally to blame." But people made the system, how can it be perfect? How can anything that needs a registered letter to get any information about a so-called bad debt be called anything but deliberately obstructive?
You need an attitude adjustment.
"
/ \ ASCII ribbon against e-mail
\ / in HTML and M$ proprietary formats.
X
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Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
In the US you are also allowed to append a written statement on most credit reports, but you have to know what is being reported.
"Just"? It's the employer's option to decide whether the crime will impact the employability of a person. They can hire whoever they'd like, for virtually any reason. If they think that that person is irresponsible because of a criminal history, then they have every right not to hire that person. Deal with it.
Inaccurate information must be corrected or deleted, assuming you can prove it's inaccurate and the CRA agrees it's inaccurate, but the CRA is not required to remove accurate data from your file unless it is outdated.
Last I looked, the burden of proof always fell on the company that reported the inaccurate data to the credit bureau. In other words, you dispute an item, and if the credit bureau hasn't received proof from the company in 30 days, it's wiped off your record. It's also wiped off during the intervening time, meaning that you might be able to run back in to the bank and get that loan.
That's how companies work that claim to be able to "fix your credit, no matter how bad." They dispute every single bad item on your credit report, and you have a few weeks to go out and get more credit.
Michael
Do you have ESP?
A close relative of the CRA's is an agency called ChexSystems. ChexSystems is supposed to keep information on people who have defrauded banks, but often all it takes to get on their list is one bounced check, or forgetting to move an automatic debit to your new account after closing the old one. A ChexSystems record is the KISS OF DEATH financially speaking.
I was reported to them for a car payment which was auto-debitted from my checking account. After cancelling my old account, I informed my bank that I wanted the payments to come from the new checking account. They didn't do it for three months (during which time I was calling them regularly to try to get the auto-debit moved), and the ensuing confusion was cause enough for this bank to report me to ChexSystems. Not that I knew anything about it at the time. It was only a year later, when I moved to another city and attempted to start a checking account there, that I found out what had happened. After looking all around town for a bank that did not use ChexSystems (and in a town like Dallas, there are a lot of banks to look at), I finally concluded that the only way for me to get a checking account would be to get rid of the ChexSystems record.
After some research, I determined that a ChexSystems entry stays on file for FIVE YEARS, and that it is almost impossible to either get the record removed before then (whether or not the information is valid) or to get an account with any institution despite the entry. After a week or so of trying to contact ChexSystems, it became obvious that if I was going to get anything done, it would be through the bank, not through them. ChexSystems said that the only way they would update their information would be at the request of the bank who reported me. Fine. I called the bank and it wasn't hard to get them to fax documentation to ChexSystems saying that all amounts were paid in full and that no outstanding debt existed. Thinking I had the problem taken care of, I attempted again to open a checking account.
No luck. It turns out that even if all amounts are paid, the mere presence of a ChexSystems record of the event is enough to be denied for any sort of account. I had to climb the bank's chain of command all the way to the director for the southwest region before getting any action. After spending a half hour of her (no doubt very expensive) time explaining what had happened to me, I was able to convince her to request that ChexSystems remove the record entirely. She told me that this essentially is never done, and that it was an enormous exception to their policies. I don't doubt it.
I consider myself very lucky. That was a year ago. The incident in question was a year before that. If I had not been able to convince this woman to purge my record, It would still be three years from now before I could have any hope of getting a basic checking account. During the time while I was sorting this stuff out, I was paying my apartment rent with money orders, cashing my paychecks at the local branch of the bank my company uses, and paying cash for everything I bought. No check card. No credit cards at that time. Can you imagine living that way for five years, because of either a screwup that wasn't your fault, or for one small mistake? It's appalling.
Here's an article that gives a fairly objective overview of the situation. And here's a site that takes a move combative stance.
Yo dawg, I heard you like the Ackermann function, so OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD
Since About the 30's there has been a viscious trend in corprate america, that they want all the rights and privileges americans have but don't want to pay for it. Since the roughly after the great depression corparations in America have slowly been paying less and less taxes, thus making citizens pay more in place of thier greed. You Can Make All The New Tax Laws But all corparations are gonna do is just pass the bill and the buck always stops at consumer. Or if they decide somehow not to pass the buck on they will move to some 3rd world contry and get slave labor to do thier deeds and still keep extremely high prices.
Corpratations are doing nothing really but accelerating thier own end. Eventually the way things are going now, the world is gonna be off balance a few rich business men who control everything and have no accountability for thier actions and the majority just will snap and when someone decides to snap and convinces the majoprity of people that he is right, they are wrong, and that then leads to a revolution is at hand. This should be of no surprise history repeats itself end of story.
With All That Said, Personally i think the American Goverment is pussy whipped by American Corparations, by a combination of greed, ignorance, and fear. because they are doing nothing to protect the civil liberites and privacies that are being threatened now. The End Result is alot of people are going suffer.
I'd like to root around for any negatives show ing in my online persona. How can I do it without paying some dirtbag CRA? Any good methods for checking court and financial background?
American companies have requested the right to store information on European consumers. I guess, in order to compile these profiles and credit reports and generally abuse them, like they abuse their own people.
Listen. It's very simple. All of this profiling, credit reporting, using government issued IDs and social security numbers is plainly illegal in Europe.
Better: you do that, you go to jail; and we close down your business right away.
If Americans don't stop trying to export their monkey business practices and monkey culture, dot-com, intellectual property, Coca cola, copyrights, McDonalds, patents on software, and other mental illnesses, it will end in war with the rest of the world.
With these two steps taken, anyone should be in a good position to counter credit history mistakes and block identity theft.
It would be way too much of a coincidence to typo "%0D" at the end of an URL more than once.
Here is the right link.
"Share your knowledge. It's a way to achieve immortality." -- Dalai Lama
(Person gets you arrested for felony hit and run and says, -- um, -- if you pay us, 1000$ we won't file these charges against you (in CA they have the option sometimes)
Now THAT is criminal!!
If the police were about upholding the law then this would not be an option. Fuck with a system like that the cops would be making their own money. "Um yeah we'll just write up this guy. That takes care of our Christmas party!"
Do you share your name with your father, by any chance?
I do. And it sucks. I figure I could get away with the confusion between my father and I when I moved to another state. This was good during my middle and high school years. You know, establishing myself away from him. He also has very bad credit.
Anyway, after high school, I didn't get into any of the colleges I wanted to (due to laziness, didn't bother sending in any apps... I figure this beige box will get me where I wanted to). And I decided to live out in California with him. I didn't live in the same household as him, instead it was one of my grandmother's houses (my father's mom, not my mother's). But when I applied for a bank account, he recommended me not to use that address. Instead, I needed to use his address. Something I wanted to avoid.
Later he tells me that the he stained his name so bad with that house address (he also uses that house for his business address... and still is to this day) that if I did have my name under that adderss, my credit will get scewed instantly.
I really hope agencies look at our social security numbers, or at the leat our middle names... (or even middle initials!). This sucks.
Reason I'm ranting now because when I moved in, my cousin (who also lived there), signed me over to the phone bill (which my dad pays) because my dad has been tagged for terrible credit and he's not allow to be in charge of payments (or some shit like that). This past December, a collection agency sent me a letter about not paying my phone bill. Sure, my dad said he sorted everything out... but I'm wondering if that's going to affect me when I finally apply for some credit card when the spring semester begins.
Credit does baffle the mind. And it sure does suck.
--
Neafevoc
Naeser's Law:
I would tend to agree, but I cringe at every sight of the word lawsuit. My fingers feel dirty just typing it. It's a drastically overused response to problems. In this case, I guess I could have tried to file charges since what the CRA did was illegal. I hate the feeling of a lawsuit being the best solution to a problem. I guess I just wish it would never have to come to that.
It's very sad that credit agencies exist to shed light on those who don't take responsibility, and yet don't always take responsibility themselves.
Developers: We can use your help.
Here goes...
I know how Katz makes all of these sob stories sound guys - but don't nessacarily believe that is the case. Every story has too sides to it.
JD: He incurred $120 worth of debt through what I assume to be one of those "record/CD" clubs that you can join. Can you blame them for denying his loan? Would you loan somebody $50,000 if they couldn't even handle a debt of $120? Thats just bad buisness. As far as JD being a teenager - well kids need to learn to take responsibility for their own actions. Just because you turn 18 - it doesn't just "go away". End of Story.
JP56: Yeah I really feel sorry for her. Hahaha - not. She drove while under the influence and possibly endangered the lives of numerous other people - who cares how young she was? Since when is age an excuse? Besides she probably only lost the job because she didn't acknowledge the fact that she had a prior felony/misdemeanor during the interview or on her application - NEXT.
Dan: Take the time to learn to drive
Peter: Read the fine print and keep better track of your mail
AndyP: Yeah its sealed for everyone else - but ummmmmm... hmmmm.... if I was the government I SURE AS HELL would check a person's sealed records before giving security clearance. Wah Wah.
The morale of the story here folks is that most if not all of these people need to take responsiblity for their actions. Age doesn't make you immune and neither should the severity of the infraction. Responsbility is what counts.
Now Katz is more than happy to spin the tales of these people kinda like Al Gore at a debate - but keep in mind their is ALWAYS another side to the story.
Oh and one more thing... Thank goodness for these databases. They keep irresponsible people like this out of places of influence. (Except in the case of the Clinton Administration... chuckle)
Gam
I love idealists not because I am one, but because they make life bearable for pragmatists such as myself.
1. Everybody here agrees, I'm sure, that something needs to be done to prevent errors in this type of database. Credit agencies need to be doing redundant cross checking on their data, rather than just entering it and forgeting it.
2. There needs to be some kind of coherent scheme to decide what kind of information credit agencies should have access to. If I'm 55, a vandalism conviction from my teens clearly shouldn't prevent me from getting a home improvement loan. In fact, the agency probably shouldn't even have that data. However, there has to be some sort of resource to allow reasonable background checks. Banks need to know if their customers have declared bankruptcy in the past before they are approved for a new loan, for example.
3. Once rules have been created to decide what information is allowable, there needs to be a system in place to enforce these rules. If a juvenile conviction should be sealed, it's out. If the information is more than seven years old, it's out. And so on. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be happening.
4. Lastly, banks, employers, and others who use to data from the credit agencies need to use that information responsibly. They shouldn't be able to reject you out of hand as soon as some blip shows up on your record. First, the users of the data need to check the information for accuracy. Second, the information should be used fairly, and only when rationally acceptable.
In summary, banks, employers, and insurance providers have to right to rationally reject an applicant based on their past. They should have some access to information and should be able to turn you down based on appropriate criteria. However, some information shouldn't be available at all, and the information that is available should be examined by a real person who can make a reasonable decision about the importance of that information.
Imagine that you could get your employer to pay you "under the table" in cash - they wouldn't have to take out taxes (and thus, you wouldn't have to file - but if you have been filing all along, continue to file as a "below the poverty line" type deal, then slowly stop filing - because if you don't make any [reported] money, you don't have to file). Then, figure out a way to fake your own death - and become a "non-person".
True - it would be tough living this way (very tough) - but legally, you wouldn't exist anymore as a person! And in today's society, this is rapidly becoming something worth pursuing...
Worldcom - Generation Duh!
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
Students, watch your credit cards. I had a debit card with a $300 credit limit in my freshman year at Boston College. It was endorsed by the college. All I wanted was a debit card, and I never even knew it HAD a credit portion.
I began spending what little funds I had, and as any student knows, that debit account will often approach zero. I used my card one time after to buy some computer equipment, thinking I had the requisite $330 in my account. The transaction went through, because my bank allowed the payment through the credit portion of my card I didn't know about.
Close to a month later I received my statement and let out an audible gasp. I owed more than $350 including "credit overlimit" fees, and was threatened by even more fees if I didn't pay my bank on time. I was angry and put off paying them.
A month later my card wouldn't work. I paid off the fees, but I had still gone over my $300 limit by $30.
To this day (and for 3 more years, 7 in total) I can't get a legitimate credit card. Noone will issue me one. Both of the major credit card reporting agencies cite me as having a single $30 over the limit transfer issue my freshman year, and it won't go away for a couple of years. All because I didn't know my debit card had a credit card feature built in.
30 dollars.
Students, be careful.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
Personally, I avoid all these credit report problems by having *no* credit. I don't buy anything unless I have the cash in hand. The one exception being my house, which only required proof of employment and a year's worth of reports from three sources (apartment, insurance, utilities). It's funny - I don't even show up on a credit report search. But I like it that way.
--
Nonsense. Technology does not erode privacy all by itself. People have to misuse it for this to happen.
To paraphrase something ESR might say in a slightly different context: Technology does not kill people's privacy, people kill people's privacy.
Edith Keeler Must Die
Talking about extreme, the movie fight club was kinda about this stuff in the end. Nice idea no?
---
DO NOT DISTURB THE SE
I think it is total crap that a credit agency can write anything they want to your record without full disclosure to you. I would really like to see some lawyers attack this and make credit agencies more responsible. There should also be easy to reach phone numbers for each and every entry so that the matter can be resolved quickly and efficiently. Like people have pointed out we don't have months to drag through all of the paper work to get these matters resolved. I think all credit databases should be disclosed for free to the person in question and that notification should be sent in the mail for every addition. My two cents :)
JOhn
Campaign for Liberty
Several anecdotes aren't much better - I want to know how many non-problems there are too. I wish data collection agencies were required to list how many disputes there are about the data they collect, and how many records, total, they have. Companies would be a lot less likely to trust a report from an agency when 10% of it's reports are disputed, and the agencies would at least have some incentive to collect accurate information.
There will always be the potential for unreasonably harsh policies. But that is how free market works. If a school says that they don't want to employ anyone who ever was convicted of drunk driving, that is fine with me. It really sucks for someone who wants to teach, but those are the breaks.
If an insurance company doesn't want to insure someone because they file a lot of claims, that sucks too, if you are the one in a bind. But it's just fine with me, because I don't have to finance your bad luck. You can probably survive without a car if you really need to. I know that in New York, USA, driving is considered to be a priviledge, not a right.
Credit is an expensive luxury. Everyone likes to buy first and pay later. Pop culture and media brainwash us into thinking we need so many expensive things. Most people would be really surprised at how much of their income goes to pay interest. Those of us with the self control to save first, and buy with cash, will have a lot more in the long run. Credit is a luxury, and it is not a right.
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"-B.Franklin
I found out when one of the companies called my current address (which was listed as my previous address) to notify me of my delinquency in payment. I explained to them that I had never opened an account with them, I had never been to any of their stores and the last time I was in the city that they said I opened the account in was when I was 14 years old. I told their fraud department that too.
I sent them a signed statement. Then they wanted a notarized statement so I sent them that. Then the wanted copies of my drivers license and my passport or social security card. After I would send each item they would demand more and more. I didn't want them to have copies of my drivers license or passport. I felt they were careless in letting anyone open an account in my name and I didn't feel safe giving my personal information to them. As to the identity of "my creditor" it was a Department Store in Memphis. I live in NJ!
It took 3 years before they finally removed the negative rating they had placed on my credit. I couldn't buy a car or get a student loan and I was in school. I was considered guilty until proven innocent.
Finally they removed it, but only because I called them for the 1000th time and lost it over the phone. Then they told me that they would take it off because they had been waiting for the receipts with "my" signature but they had destroyed those receipts over 1 year ago. So they had destroyed the evidence which would have cleared me but left the negative credit rating on.
Is there no was of fighting these companies against destroying your credit while you prove your innocence. I felt completely powerless and very angry that they refused to work with me.
--M.
Come to think of it, it probably isn't.
Female Prison Rape in NY
It's a good idea to track your own credit. By law, CRAs are required to let you view the credit report they have on file. By all means do this--at least once a year.
Thankfully, I have never had anything negative (yet) on my credit report, but when I reviewed my reports a couple of years ago, they showed a couple of closed accounts as still being active, and even two entries for the same loan! That showed me as having more available credit than I really did, which could mean the difference between getting a loan and being denied credit.
Keep an eye on it. Don't let a blunder or an oversight on somebody else's part screw you. Planning on applying for a loan? Get a copy of your report (from EVERY agency) BEFORE you apply. The sooner you correct it, the less chance of somebody blacklisting you.
Been denied credit? Demand to know why, so that you can correct the error or make amends "and be a customer in the future."
Give me my freedom, and I'll take care of my own security, thank you.
my wife was 2 days late on paying a traffic ticket. The county suspended her license because of late payment. she paid the ticket and was given a piece of paper and told to keep that paper in her wallet for 2 YEARS as it will take that long for the system to clear out the suspension. This is in Michigan for cripes sake, they can suspend it in seconds but the databases wont revert back to normal for 2 years? Why does the state/feds/credit companies get to run things in a shoddy manner that would get the rest of us fired or in jail but they can do it in a hap-hazardly and even illegal way?
This situation will only get worse, the credit reporting business is un-regulated and therefore can just make crap up on your record (I've seen it done!) if you pester them too much. and the state can SELL your data to 3rd parties that buy a database once and never update it again. (another unregulated function.)
Noone will pass laws to regulate this, it's not in the political best interest. and your congressman/woman could care less about your rights/problems. There is nothing that can be done, because noone wants to do anything about it but whine.
Hell, the rights of the people getting trampled caused a revolution 224 years ago... today? we whine and pout.... It's the Generation X way... Makes one impressed with the lack of backbone this country's citizens have.
(Have the geeks marched on capitol hill? have we held protests? have we formed a movement that cant be ignored? nope, and we never will.)
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
I'm a 20-year-old college student who's never had a credit card. I do have some relatively small loan to pay off when I get out of college. Is it really worth it to get a credit card now when I don't have interest in using it?
As a side note, Penn State uses student ID numbers interchangably with social security numbers. This means that fellow students' social security numbers are easy to come by. Do other colleges follow this dangerous practice?
Unfortunately, those denied credit are generally those who can't afford to launch a legal attack against a well funded opponent. When a large entity screws a lot of people over, the normal remedy is a class action lawsuit. The net should help here, as it will help the screwees find each other and get organized. Surely some lawyer somewhere has smelled blood in the water from this problem...
To a Lisp hacker, XML is S-expressions in drag.
The great thing about American society was supposedly your ability to remake yourself. You could, at any time, pull yourself up, and create a new life and a new career for yourself. Destroying this destroys an individual's incentive to right their lives, or even switch directions. Having an entire class of people denied these opportunities, rules by people who manage to pass the required background checks, is the negation of the democratic ideal.
If your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd murder you in your sleep
I wrote financial software for banks and financial institutions for 5 years. During this time I to deal with the various major credit agencies and a few minor ones. I spent a full year writing software to tie databases together and translate information from one to the other.
Some of the things that are used to get these "credit scores" are very questionable. Here are some of the fields in the databases used by some of the major agencies to calcuate the score:
1. your age
2. how often your address changes
3. how often you change jobs (even if it is simply a relocation with the same company)
4. your marriage history
5. your race
Yes, your race! I have not seen the algorithms used for the calculations but in MOST of the agencies databases there was a field for ethnic background or race.
I'd hate to see how they actualy use some of that information in the calculations...
What I find incredibly interesting is that we know lots about the shallow depths of the oceans, lots about the ocean floors, but we know very little about the deep depths between the surface and ocean floor... Can't we get some kind of sensor with a specific density that can only go down so far before ... just kinda hovering? I mean, I would expect that the pressure down there is pretty intense, and there would have to be a certain point at which some objects just couldn't sink any deeper. Of course, being the marine biologist that I'm not, I could be wrong.
Its an easy way to a free credit report.
No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?
All right.
When I was a teenager, I slipped a disk in my spine after practice (because I lifted my 50 lb. plus bookbag the wrong way) and had to see a doctor. I filled the forms and thought my insurance would pay for the procedure needed to jolt my disk back into place.
Boy, was I wrong.
The insurer started a credit file on me with all the agencies and, when I wanted credit at 18, I got no,no,no,no,no,no,NO!
I requested my files and saw this item.
I got in touch with the dispute resolution and told them that it was simply impossible for me to owe money before the age of majority. I mailed them a notarized affidavit with a xerographic copy of my passport and a few weeks later, it's gone.
Now, tips...
1. Very few people ever need your SSN. Basically, your employer, your bank (if you have an interest-bearing account), and your brokerage need it for tax purposes. Now, IANAL, but restricting access provides a level of protection.
1a. You don't need to give your SSN to a doctor, school, testing firm, grocery store, or anyone else who wants it for "identification." If they demand a 9-digit number, you can create an instant null SSN by replacing one 'field' of the number with 9's or 0's. (Eg: 999-00-9999: The 3,2,4 are the 'fields.')
2. You can pull your credit file from each of the major credit agencies at least once annually. They all have toll-free numbers for this use. Also, if you are declined you can request another personal pull.
NOTE: The 'gimme' pull they provide is much less detailed than a proper credit report given to a firm. Some firms will be able to give you a full pull, for a fee.
NOTE: It's worth mentioning that the number of pulls within 30 days, six months, and two years are factors in credit approval/denial. The more pulls, the more likely that you've been denied.
3. If you are denied for something which happened before the age of majority in your state, be it 18, 19, or 21, (check with a lawyer if you're not sure) you've got every right to contest until hell freezes over. As in my case, persistance pays off.
4. Check when you DON'T need it. Time is your friend; the more time you have, the more you can fix and rescind.
Later, when I'm less sleep-deprived, I'll follow up with phone numbers.
Joy.
I used to be someone else. Now I'm someone better.
Real life is underrated.
Be very careful about requesting credit checks on yourself, or giving authorization to a third party to keep periodic tabs on your credit standing. As I understand it, each time someone runs a credit check on you, it actually serves to reduce your credit worthiness. The thinking goes something like... if this person's credit is being checked often, it must mean that someone is having trouble collecting a debt or enforcing payment schedules. Big RED flag to mortgage houses.
-J
Actually when you are getting a DOD security clearance, the problem really isn't what is on your record but the difference between what you put on your application form, and whatever they can dig up.
I had a friend in a similar situation who was arrested for PI when he was caught by an officer while he was drunk in a parking lot and peeing on a car. It took almost a year to get his clearance (typical delay at the time was about 3 months), but he did eventually get it.
But you absolutely cannot lie on those forms. Anything you lie about the DOD considers something that you could later be blackmailed about.
For what its worth though I'd avoid government related service anyway. Anything that requires a clearance has to be staffed for maximum need, so if the work is at all cyclic you'll spend half your time sitting on your hands trying to look busy, and the other half working 12 hour days when you really are busy. But since nothing can be contracted out, and you can't actually hire someone and put them to work for 3+ months, the defense contractors really have to hire far ahead of need.
(Or if you are the sort of person who wants to work for the DOD because you want to know what is really going on, and think that getting a clearance will let you in on it all; don't waste your time. In five years of working on classified and unclassified programs the data was always just as boring either way. Some vehicle is going to launch on some day, into some specific orbit. Who cares.)
LibBT: BitTorrent for C - small - fast - clean (Now Versio
Sue them. It appears in the U.S. the only way to get anything done is to sick lawyers on negligent companies.
It depends on how lucrative lawyers perceive such cases to be. As there doesn't seem to be a flurry of such lawsuits, my guess is many lawyers are reluctant to take these cases. There's just not a very well beaten path yet.
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
I believe that a little-known feature of the FCRA (or other credit laws) limits the financial liability of a CRA, no matter how much their error costs you. In other words, even if you did get a lawyer, sue, and win, you probably wouldn't recover enough to cover your expenses. So there's absolutely no incentive for CRAs to get it right.
A small bit of progress, but progress nonetheless. And kudos to B of A finally doing the right thing--though it's a sad state of affairs when such kudos are necessary!
You screwed up one customer account, once, so you are out of business. 8-)
Okay, in order:
Crikey, how do you parse that from what I wrote? Let me try to put it another way:
Regarding only-child/tattletale, you really ought to not make assumptions because you run a real risk of coming out looking like a blockhead. I have 3 siblings. Tattletales don't last long in my family. You stand up for your siblings or you'll find your GI Joes without arms and legs come Monday morning.
So, since we're making snap judgements, I guess you're a pedophile in hiding, trying to avoid a palimony suit from your sister while finger-banging your grandmother, and you want everybody to "accept you as you are".
Geezum crow, where did that come from? I guess we're still stuck on "expecting a reward". I expect neither the government or my parents to reward me for what is decent and proper behavior. Does that satisfy you? I expect NOTHING from NOBODY -- I get what I can earn, and nothing more.
If I'm hiring somebody to be a cashier, I damn well SHOULD know if they are a repeat-offender thief! Should I then be able to take out a full-page ad telling everybody in the world "Hey! Joe Smith is a THIEF!"? No!
If you have a daughter (if($daughter) {ereg_replace("if", "when", $rant)}), will you still think that "what happens is between the person and the law" when you go looking for a day-care center? Or will you just hope that they haven't hired any pedophiles?
I don't think I made myself clear here (mea culpa). I was trying to separate the two issues for a hypothetical situation. I didn't do a very good job of it.
Let's assume, however, that this guy does live in a state where misdemeanors committed as a minor are sealed, except for certain cases where damage was done that ammounted to more than $2000, and his spray-painting cost $3000 to repair/clean up. If the employer doesn't like the fact that this guy did this, it's his choice to not hire him, and he has cause -- his employees reflect upon his business.
Conformist? I don't want conformity! Where in the hell do I say I want conformity! I want respect for property -- is that too much to ask?
For the record, I'm a die-hard, voting, volunteering Libertarian. Do I do drugs? No! If drugs become legal, will I do them? No! Do I want a nanny state? NO!
Should a criminal record be public? No, but they should be accessible in certain circumstances. Who decides what circumstances? Depends on the record -- federal crimes are dictated by federal authorities, state by state authorities, local by local authorities. If I am able to access a person's record, do I have the right to blab it? No! If I do so, it should be punishable.
I answer most of this above -- I got further afield than I intended to. Do not put words into my mouth. My premise was simple enough, you expanded it to mean things that I never said, never intended, never implied.
You apparently think that I pry into the doings of my employees -- an assertion that I can wholeheartedly deny, mostly because my employees are people that I've know for years. At this point, we don't even have an employment application!
Read my original post again, and try to see it without your pre-formed opinions of what you THINK I said. Then we can talk again.
Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
Not to add more anecdotal evidence (actually, that's exactly what I'm gonna do... *g*), but my fiance(e ?) has had at least three letters and as many phone calls about someone else's credit problems. The other person has the same name, but that's it; different b-day, SIN number, etc. Yet she's been contacted on two occasions for the same thing (once before and once after we moved) for the same wrong identity. Thankfully, there were no major ramifications, but it doesn't mean there couldn't have been (or won't be).
As to going back to using pencil and paper, not only is that ludicrous, but no one is suggesting it. What is being suggested is a little more responsibility on the part of the agencies collecting the information. Bad enough that there are mistakes in things as important as credit histories - that's at least understandable considering the sheer volume of information involved; it's even worse that mistakes as potentially important as these aren't considered important by those who have the ability to correct them.
--
--
It's not the rambling I object to, so much as the mumbled incoherancies...
Maybe we need the equivalent of a credit reporting bureau to find out about the corporations we are about to deal with...
... Sold 100 million copies of defective software. Made it's customers pay again to buy the "uprgrade" with the bug fix. Introduced new bugs..."
...Credited Joe Schmoe's deposits to the wrong account, then bounced his checks, ruined his credit rating, and made his life miserable. Took 3 months to correct the original mistake and never has fixed the bounced checks...
I could go on, but if you are over 25 you already know dozens more examples.
You can actually sign your cards 'Ask for ID' (No name needed).
However, this does not work all the time. I have this on all my cards, but only about half the time do I get asked for ID - and about a fifth of the time, they LOOK AT THE BACK, then hand the card back!!!!! However - it will make it more difficult for an idiot (aka most of the population - as proven by the cashiers!) to use the card if it is stolen.
Rusty
---- Magic is real, unless declared integer - Wiz Zumwalt
So, let me get this straight, if you screw up once in your book, you should be branded for life? So much for the land of the free.
Let's see, supposedly once you "do your time" for your crime, it's not supposed to have much (if any) effect on your life. Now, this is not the case (and nor should it be), in cases where dangerous behavior is involved (child molestation for example.)
But say I smoked weed when I was 18, and got busted (non driving offense). Should that affect what kind of driving insurance I get? How about the types of jobs I can get 5 years down the road? I did my time, I paid my dues, am I less of a "citizen" because I didn't conform to the "norm" as a youth? Easy buddy, maybe if (or when) you have kids, and they get in trouble, you might change your attitude for second chances and how long things should stay on your record.
BTW, I almost got rejected for a job due to that marijuana infraction as a youth, when it's not even on my criminal record, how did they find out? Oddly enough, from my driving record, (note: It was not a driving infraction, it was a possesion charge.)
I do not object to the collection of information, but I do object to the inability for normal people to dispute information that can be easily entered into your profile, without so much as a cursory glance to make sure it's true or not.
Enough of a rant, lord knows I doubt I could even follow it if i tried.
I've read through all the horror stories on this thread, and while I understand them and sympathize with them, let me give everybody an alternative version of this 'credit hell' that has been described.
First, I probably fit everyone's ideal of a terrible credit risk. I've got $12,000 in student loans outstanding, and I'm currently +60 on the payment. I just wrote a check for a triple payment, so granted that one is fixed.
I also have a repossession on my credit report, dating about four years ago. I bought a Camaro for $7,000, on a co-sign from my father, and I was making the payments no problem. Unfortunately, my father had to file for bankruptcy about a year into the contract, and since he'd co-signed me, the lending agency called the entire loan due immediately (about $5,500). Of course, I had to give them the car back.
I also have a defaulted credit card on my record, which dates about the same time. I had a Discover card with a $2,500 limit, and I had to let the whole thing go bad because I didn't work for a year (no sob stories, just bad decisions). I haven't yet addressed that issue, but I will when I can. It's gotten so old now that credit agencies don't even bother dealing with it.
Besides that, I have one of those dreaded ChexSystems marks against me because of an incident with a checking account I had six years ago. Basically, I wrote two checks two days after I'd deposited a check, and the bank still bounced one of the checks. I disputed it, and in the end I just closed the account and told them to stuff the remainder of their fee (about $30).
Whew! After all that, let me tell you something: I currently have a no-fee checking account with a check card, I have a car loan, I have a good job, a place to live, and I have two credit cards with a total of $1,500 in credit lines? Why? I haven't the foggiest idea! I wouldn't lend me money, but no one seems to care. When I got my checking account, they initially nixed the check card, but after I spent four months proving I wasn't a loser, they gave me one anyway. I don't expect I'd get a mortgage loan anytime soon, without a 50% down payment, but it doesn't bother me to live in apartments and let someone else do the maintenance.
Like I said, I feel sorry for those who've had bad situations, but I don't know that I see why they're having them. Maybe I'm lucky, and I know I've been irresponsible, and I AM going to solve all those outstanding problems, but it hasn't negatively affected my life in any way. Maybe that's a bad message to relate, but that's the way it is.
Hmmmm....
"You are in favor of risk taking only when it results in great wealth, never when it doesn't "
You must be a complete idiot - why would I take a risk unless I had a reasonable chance of suceeding? Be realistic man - don't blame other people for what is obviously the manifestation of your stupidity.
Gam
I love idealists not because I am one, but because they make life bearable for pragmatists such as myself.
Dear Sir:
I represent the credit information collection and reporting agency of Fuckem, Over, and Howe. It has recently come to our attention in a database we purchased that employees and agents of "Random CRA" have in the past willfully sold fraudulent databases of credit information, defrauded banks for sums of up to $500,000, incurred massive credit-card debts viewing pornographic material at http://goatse.cx, and are all drunk drivers and child molesters. Incidentally, they have all also fucked your wife.
We thought you might be interested in this information.
Sincerely,
NOTE: FUCKEM, OVER, AND HOWE DOES NOT MAKE ANY CLAIM OR GUARANTEE AS TO THE VALIDITY OF INFORMATION CONTAINED WITHIN THIS REPORT, AND ASSUMES NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ACTIONS YOU MAY TAKE AS A RESULT OF ACQUIRING THIS INFORMATION.
That'll solve the problem real fast.Okay! I just got a copy of my credit report about an hour after I posted that. Turns out the real story is just about as silly; The delinquent account was actually with a medical lab for some blood diagnostics my doctor ordered over 2 years ago. Because I lived at school and my mail came to my parents' house, the bill got lost in the shuffle. And my parents figured it was covered by their medical insurance. Nope! I was supposed to pay. So, I never got a bill but did get routed through a collection agency and it ruined a few credit card apps for me.
You can NOT get a free credit report there.
You have to join their program, and to do that you HAVE to give them a credit card number.. Its a 'free trial' scam. So its useless if you dont already have at least decent enough credit to get a card, and will probably put you in more debt as you try vainly to get it cancelled and get them to stop billing you..
That's what I wonder.
Most schools seem to have a policy that if you don't like using your SSN, they'll generate a number for you to use instead.
Actually, Penn State can do this, but not without some hassle.
Well, the doctor didn't lube my enema this morning, so I'm a bit cranky.
Nothing like tearing sphincter to start your day.
Accountability isn't forever.
When you die, everyone will say you did nothing but good things at your funeral. They will forgive you, and wish you a peacefull slumber in the dirt through eternity.
AndyP wrote two months ago that he'd been arrested for vandalism after one Halloween mischief night when he was sixteen. An online tracking agency dug up the arrest -- even though it was a misdeanor offense, was supposed to be kept sealed, and had happened a decade earlier. "I was turned down because my company was working on a government project and we all needed a moderate security clearance. I never got it sorted out, because it was technically true. But jeez, it was a spray-painting incident. I guess in certain quarters, I'm unemployable for the rest of my life."
I'm pretty damned sure that they laws in the US mirror those here regarding juve offences- ie, it's sealed untill you die. From everybody. Can't AndiP sue somebody over this? I'm not for frivolous lawsuits, but this just isn't fair. Your life until you're 18 is supposed to be getting all the mischief and spray-painting out of your system, so you can enter the world as an adult...
--Gfunk
Send lawyers, guns, and money!
Make it a felony to deny employment or credit for something that does not reasonable bear on the worthyness of the applicant or the prudentness of extending a loan, employment, or a security clearance.
People will get their hands on data, but if the penalty of misusing it to discriminate is strong enough, it won't be as much of a problem.
For example, denying employment or a loan for anything done before the age of 18 should be a felony.
If we don't trust 18 year olds to vote because they aren't responsible for their actions, then we shouldn't deny them benefits later on in life for actions committed at that age. Either a 17 year old is responsible for their actions (then let them vote) or is not (then don't discriminate on them later in life for actions committed at that age).
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
This is because skip-tracers use telephone directories to locate people. They have nothing more than a name and a usually old address to go by. I know this because I used to be a directory assistance operator and 50% of our business was skip tracers.
Enigma
Enigma
It is pretty sad but hey, welcome to the hype that is the Internet, an extension of our fucked-up materialistic disposable society.
--
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
When it was previously un-modded?
This is what happens when we have punishment for moderation.......people wuss out and don't mod how they really think. I propose an adjustment to the mod system where we take away the punishments and add a little comment box. I think it would be nice to see moderators explain their actions. It certainly wouldn't bother me to explain mine when modding. It would be nice to have an opportunity to explain to the meta-modders, who can be any joe, something that might be technical and not necessarily obvious.
Posted with no +1 bonus to avoid the mod radar. Couldn't give in and go anon.
"Share your knowledge. It's a way to achieve immortality." -- Dalai Lama
Now this wont neccesarily apply to any of you guys in the US, but in the UK most of the credit information is handled by two companies - Equifax and Experian. What I generally do is to obtain all information that they hold on me every six months (Under the data protection act.) and sort any problems out before I get screwed over. If I am going to an interview for a big job, I use a reference check agency to make sure that no-body is saying anything bad about me, and nothing has been made up about me... It's not even that expensive. You see, when it all comes down to it, there ARE things that you can do to even things up. Just make sure that you know what those things are.
People that believe in their opinions don't post AC.
You gotta imagine the thing just hits you to, you don't have time to think it out or take recordings of your phone calls or anything, because, the first time you hear about it the police are arresting you ... And its always some fat daughter who files the report and her dad who runs the scam ...
Free Techno/Jazz/DNB/MI Music by guys obsessed with monkeys!
This hot pre IPO vapor venture capital E business (E = explosive)
Is looking for 3 dedicated can do individuals to shake up the CRAs in America.
Applicants must possess skills in:
Word Perfect.
Demolition.
JAVA.
Fire Arms (M-16, AK 47 a plus).
HTML.
Hand-to-Hand combat.
Photoshop & Illustrator.
Manufacturing explosives form ever day household items.
Be a real people person.
Applicant must all so possess a Class B drives license, Pilot license a big plus but not necessary
All interested applicants pleas submit you resume to causey@thecauseyway.com
Praise Causey
Computers are not at fault here, people are, and in particular, American people. When in the US, the amount of times I have been confronted by a beuracratic morons who either 'dont have a form for that sir' or 'havent done that before, cant help you' is amazing. No doubt this is compounded by the fact that I come from somewhere else other than America (shock horror, there are other countries in the world?). If something is not exactly as their procedure state and they have to think just a little bit outside the box, all hell breaks loose and their world comes crashing down. All rules, laws and procedures are GUIDELINES. I cannot think of a single man made law that could not have an exception to it.
All women want is honesty, if you can fake that, you're in.
Um, has Katz reminded anyone here of George Orwell? 1984 was a good book, but Katz here has just re-written it as a modern reality-horror, kinda like on of those over-hyped Dateline exposes about bacteria being on phones and in cheese... Yes, I admit the problems with the beauracracy here, but it's not really that much of a plague to our society. (if it had, it would have been taken care of or prevented) And the bottom line is to protect yourself; don't just bitch here on /. When someone (Damn computer games beg you to register with them, and then ask you all kinds of personal shit...) asks for your SSN or home address, when it's not needed, just give them 127-0-0-1, or whatever. Action is the redeemer.
Gene Simmons will consume your soul...
Amongst other things, this led to a friend having to sue a court because a clerk accidentally hit the wrong button and marked a lawsuit against him as "resolved" (i.e. he owed the debt and had to be sued before he'd pay it) rather than as "dismissed" (i.e., he didn't owe the debt in the first place). This despite a letter from the apartment complex manager to the CRA saying that the lawsuit against the friend had been a case of mistaken identity. The CRA replied that they could not remove the information because it had been provided by the court, rather than by the apartment complex. The court said they had no record of such a lawsuit (it'd been dismissed, after all) and could not provide any documentation to the CRA. The CRA thus refused to remove the information. Thus the need to sue the court in order to get it to issue a letter to the CRA -- not exactly the most pleasant of things to do.
See http://badtux.org/eric/grumblings/eviltwin.html for my own experience with deadbeats who have the name "Eric Green" and getting contacted by debt collectors... Note that every time this happens, I have to send the morons a certified letter demanding that they either provide proof of debt or cease and desist as required by the Fair Debt Collections Act. So far I haven't had to go to the next step (where my attorney sends them a cease and desist -- I have a kick-ass attorney for that kind of stuff).
-E
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
I recently bought a car. I spent three months cleaning up my credit report beforehand. There were debts on there that had been discharged years ago. There were accounts marked as "open" with available balances (bad credit score!) that had been closed years ago. I dutifully sent the letters to the credit reporting agencies, which then picked up the phone, called XYZ Corps, and asked "does Eric Green, SSN 666-66-6666, have an open account 123-456-78?". This usually resolved it, but there was one credit card company that had been sold off by its dying parent bank and they had no records showing that I'd paid my bill. So I had to contact that credit card company directly. Two certified letters and a threatened lawsuit later (after I demanded proof of indebtedness, along with providing a copy of the check) and they finally sent me a letter saying that all derogatory information was being removed from my credit record. [Luckily I *NEVER* throw away old bank statements or cancelled checks... too bad banks have stopped providing cancelled checks...]
-E
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
Do note that you have to make a payment every month in order for it to enter your credit record as something that looks good. In months that you have no payments, no info gets reported.
-E
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
Note that if I had ever seen one of these credit card agreements, I would not be allowed to tell you about it (they may or may not be stamped with legalese saying that all contents are proprietary information, but I haven't seen one, right, so I couldn't tell you that! :-).
-E
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
If you want incorrect information removed, and the source of the information says "yeah, that information is correct" when the CRA calls, then the CRA has no liability. You must then contact and possibly sue the source of the information, not the credit reporting agency. Only once the source (or a court) says that the information is incorrect, is the CRA liable -- meaning, if they *STILL* refuse to remove the info after the source (or court) says it's incorrect, then and *ONLY* then can you sue the CRA (and for a laughably small amount... $50,000 max, if I recall, or maybe that's the Fair Debt Collections Act, it's been a few months since I looked all this up).
-E
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
There seems to be a lot of myths floating around about what counts and doesn't count. Basically, there's four things that count: 1) Number of credit requests, 2) payment history (do you have a history of paying your bills on time, or do you have late payments?), 3) number of accounts and current balances on your outstanding debts, and 4) available credit on your credit cards and lines of credit. All the other things I've seen appear to be mythical. They certainly haven't shown up on the credit reports that I, my bank, or my landlord have obtained.
-E
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
-E
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
-E
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
I apologize in advance if I'm covering ground others have already ...
The way I see it there are 2 different points being raised here :
1) whether people who actually did rack up debts/commit crimes should have those matters disclosed and kept in credit records; and
2) whether people who didn't actually rack up debts/commit crimes have any recourse aganst credit agencies which say they did.
I'm not even going to TOUCH (1) :)
But for (2) (i.e. innocent people) - why doesn't someone just sue the damn credit agencies for defamation ? I mean, all the requirements seem to be present
(a) publication to third parties (i.e. to the banks)
(b) of a fact which the credit agency cannot prove to be true (i.e. it is their responsibility to prove that it is untrue. The reverse is only true of public figures, which most of the affected are not)
(c) causing damage (e.g. being unable to get a loan)
I know this would work in any other common law country; does the US have any special quirks in the law ?
-E
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
Feel free to help me setup my new company: Equiphax.com
This company will be not for profit and be the first (to my knowledge) company that will keep a online database of Banks, and credit agency's and their customers overall ratings of their service. Think of this as the first "Business Background Check". Next time you are looking for a car loan, maybe you can walk in, slap down the "business report" from equiphax.com and tell them, "I'm sorry but I can't do business with you because your credit with consumers is poor."
I just reg'd the domain, so it may take a few hours to resolve in your part of the world, so in the meantime, just email equiphax@whoowl.com, if you want to give me a hand. This would be some people with experience with databases and websites, and I think I may need some legal help if/when a certain other company gets pissed at the name of my company.
VANBO
That is not to say that age discrimination, discrimination against sloppy dressers, etc. do not exist here in the United States. Just that it costs corporations more money to practice it, because U.S. law outlaws hiring practices that are common in Europe.
-E
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
The only difference is that the company towns have gotten bigger, sometimes encompassing entire nations. But the same elements of vigilante justice ("Death to those who bounced a check due to our own incompetence!") and sheer disregard for human life, still apply.
-E
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
Do that to whatever spammer you want, but not to a bank. Next time, they'll ruin your credit report, or worse, they'll stick you one of those dreaded ChexSystems marks. And there is really not much you can do about that.
as the cost of storing info drops, this can only get worse. it may even be possible to keep a list of the web pages that every individual visits. imagine ... in 2003 you're refused a job cos in 1999, you clicked on pages that were inappropriate. this is possible ....
yup ... microsoft don't want you cos you clicked on slashdot.org about 200 times.
Amen to that. Every single one of the items that Katz mentions would be illegal (in some cases to the point of criminality) in the UK and, as regards the Data Protection points, across the European Union.
-- AndrewD
A Maze of Twisty Little Laws, All Different.
Graphology and polygraph tests are also prohibited for most job applicants (polygraph tests are only allowed for certain jobs that affect national security).
Every company here in the United States knows that if they request these things, the next thing that will be waiting for them will be a subpoena to appear as a defendent in a lawsuit. There are lawyers salivating over the opportunity to stick it to some moron who blatantly violates the law. So companies don't do this stuff. Score one for the lawyers.
The lawyer thing works well for blatant "yes or no" things like "did they request a photo". It of course does not work well for less blatant violations of the laws against race and age descrimination. If they get you in for an interveiew, see that you're black, and say "I'm sorry, but after more review we see that you're not qualified for this position", it's quite hard to prove racial discrimination. The famous study where identical resumes were sent out to Fortune 1000 companies, half with a stereotypically black name and half with a stereotypically white name, shows that racial bias definitely still exists in hiring in the United States (for those who have poor memory -- the resume with the stereotypically white name got significantly more callbacks, even though it was completely and absolutely otherwise identical to the other one). So the lack of photos does not make it impossible to racially discriminate based on one's resume (curriculum vitae). But at least it's not as blatant and up-front an indicator of racial or age bias as a request for a photograph.
-E
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
Check out the liability caps in the FCRA and the FDCPA - $500,000.00 is nothing to these guys. That makes it harder, but not impossible. Just file multiple suits, each with a group of, say, 100 people asking for $5000 in damages each. Even doing this once per state works out to $25M, plus legal fees and hassle.
To a Lisp hacker, XML is S-expressions in drag.
apply for a loan you know you won't get. Whoever denies your loan is required by law to inform you of the CRA they used to deny the loan and that CRA is required by law to provide you with their records of you.
This will only work if the failed loan applications do not wind up in the CRA's records though. But it's just as possible that a "subject access" will get in there too.
There are 3 credit reporting agecies, and you may have to do this several times before getting a letter indicated all 3 so you can write to them for free info. Being turned down several times in a row shows up on your credit history and looks very bad. :)
--Chris
Well, I'm not a biologist or ecologist or whatever, but aren't wolves the natural predators of deer? Thing about wolves is, people tend to think they are extremely dangerous and hunt them to near extinction. There was a time when hunters were ENCOURAGED to hunt wolves by EVERYBODY. They were dangerous beasts!!! Hell, people are TRYING to rebuild the wolf population in a handful of preserves across America but their efforts have been opposed left and right--wolves are dangerous beasts, remember? Lovely, terrified creature my ass! How do you feel about cows, pigs and lambs, bah-ah-ah-ah. They get slaughtered for food everyday AND they generally don't cause mass damage to speeding cars because they are not in the fucking road! Deers are a major fucking annoyance for many people. You obviously don't even know the difference bewteen jack shit and bull shit you are so fucking stupid.
--Chris
Only perfect people, it appears, are safe.
Of course I'm not saying that I'm perfect! But twice in the past year I have had companies turn an account over to a collection agency for amounts that I did not owe. Fortunately the collection agencies didn't pursue the cases after receiving my explanations.
The first case was a complicated matter of a service that was not provided in a usable way but was billed anyway. That required a 6-page letter of explanation.
The second case was unbeliebably egregious; it was for an amount that I had paid. I had previously responded to the company's overdue notices by pointing that out and sending a copy of the cancelled check. Yet the dimwitted fools turned the account over to a collection agency anyway!
Now what if one of these winds up on a credit report? According to the companies, they were both debts that were more than 120 days past due. How much trouble would this be to straighten out? And why in the hell should I have to deal with this crap at all?
Do you really think so?
--
Cthulhu fhtagn!
The Credit Reporting System is grotesquely unfair and opposite to the principle of the legal system that your accuser must prove your guilt. Although you can fight the system it is very difficult. One of the really amazing things is that a lot of these creditors value their right to place negative reports than to collect the money they are owed. Currently I have some old utility bills from right before I became homeless. Although I've offered to settle, they refuse to negotiate. Fortunately, I don't have any immediate credit needs (other than the remote possibility that my next job offer could be killed by a Credit Report). Pacific Bell has created a Kafkaeskue maze of turning each individual account out to a different Collection Agency which has no power of attorney, when you call PacBell they send you to their agent, the agent can't negotiate. PG&E is more straightforward and just won't negotiate. As I write this I'm in the middle of writing letters to Pacbell's agencies threatening action under the Credit Reporting and Debt Collection Acts unless they withdraw all reports that they cannot substantiate with a written contract or judgement. In both cases I'm trying to locate other departments that might have authority to negotiate. I intend to document a history of trying to settle but even though they're making the claims I have to sue them to make them sue me, and being that I now live in New Jersey I must either go to California to use small claims court or use a regular court in New Jersey.
Minds get scrambled like eggs, abused and erased when you live in a brain storm