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Software Tracks Kids At School
Carpediem55 writes: "The Associated Press is reporting here on school districts using software to let parents track the movements of their children at school. The scariest quote, 'I think the more we can control our kids, the better off in the long run they'll be.' Am I glad I'm out of high school." Seems like a natural extension to me of the webcams in institutional babysitting places so parents can watch their kids -- of course, what does that say about schools?
Point is some parents are just plain overbearing nature despite technology.
Sometime I believe that the only way these places could be so horriable is if they were designed like that. A government has an easier job when it's people depend on it to provide the basic item the people need to exist(jobs, food, money, security, etc.). A responsible voter doesn't vote for the other guy becuase the media says a man is dumb. Nor do they vote for someone becuase they talk about a free drugs. A responsible person can make his own choices based on factt and provide things by himself without help from government, by the very meaning of being responsible!
If a person doesn't learn how money works, the history of the world's mistake, the skills needed to read a government report, or even to slove a problem logicaly, how can anyone expect that person to make a logical well rounded choice in the voting booth?! The answer is they simply can't.
Now going back to the monitoring bit. The US Government has a long history of watching it's people, and a desire to control it's people. Bill Clintion said once "If personal freedom gets in the way of government policy, then get rid of freedom." However the people of the country would raise hell if they knew they were being watched like people are in the UK. Programs like this might impower the parents to be somewhat envoled, but a side effect is it teaches the kids to accept being watched and controled, a noble goal if you what to be dependance of someone else.
Take the story of the girl that couldn't buy ice cream and move it, oh 20 years, ahead. The lady want to buy something. Since the government implanted camaras and watching devices everywhere, they think little miss shouldn't buy something, what it is isn't important. If you care, say it's a book on a subject that the government think she has read to much of (You don't learn computer skills by reading one book.). Anyways, she won't protest it becuase she is use to it! Thus the government can walk over her freedoms.
A great man once said "He who is willing to lose freedom for security, shall soon have either."
And that is the one line you have to remember.
...in the US is really quite simple, and I agree with both of you. I feel that the widespread binge drinking at US universities is the result of a too-high drinking age (you can vote, but you can't drink! What the hell is that?), and kids who have been babied to death until they were 18. They get to college, and bam! tons of freedom, never having drunk responsibly in their life (for non-US readers, giving a child any quantity of alcohol, no matter how small, is considered a no-no most places in the US.) These students are presented with unlimited alcohol, of course they're going to drink as much as possible. This retarded program only intensifies the babying and its inevitable consequences.
The teens who were trying to be controlled/babied the most by their parents at my high school were ALWAYS the ones going to keg parties and getting drunk night in and night out. Now, all this being said, of course you have to set some limits -- but setting limits that allow freedom and responsibility are essential. Limits that tie them up completely are going to come back to haunt you once they're broken.
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A two year old is generally not competent to make decisions regarding crossing the street. A fifteen year old can make these decisions, but is similarly unable to make intelligent decisions regarding sex.
If you don't think you need to keep a close eye on a kid, you don't have to. On the other hand, if I have a kid who starts acting out to the point where it becomes dangerous, I want to have the ability to keep tabs on them at school, monitor how fast they drive, and even test for drugs if I have to.
Parenting means getting your kid to adulthood by any means necessary. This doesn't mean you have to keep an eye on every kid, but it means you should be willing to if it becomes evident that it's necessary.
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Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
I know that this isn't a popular concept with the Slashdot hivemind, but the fact is that certain kids demand constant monitoring -- these devices, from those that make sure they're not driving the car too fast to gadgets that check to be sure they're at school are simply means to this end.
High school kids are not adults, despite what the criminal justice system seems to think lately (and what they've thought all along). Some are more mature than others, and some need closer attention than others. Hell, when I was in high school I saw a father have to recussitate his kid after an all-day boozefest on Senior Skip Day. That image is burned into my mind -- it was the first time I saw things from an adult rather than a high school viewpoint.
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Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
Of course, I should mention that no one parenting approach is appropriate for all kids, but...
You are not your child's friend. You are your child's parent. As such, it is your responsibility to make sure they grow up, and you must be willing to use all the tools at your disposal if need be, even if it means you have to be the bad guy.
Kids naturally explore their limits. This is normal and healthy, but they also will almost always go too far and require corrective action (what used to be called "punishment"). Some kids decide to catch air in the car, some skip school, some do drugs, etc. A good parent will put a stop to this behavior one way or the other -- that's just the way it has to work.
Children, even high schoolers, are not miniature adults. They lack both the biological maturity and life experience to make intelligent decisions on certain subjects, and it's the basic role of a parent to persuade, convince, or force them to straighten out.
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Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
If children grow up in this kind of environment, what kind of citizens will they be when they magically turn 18 and are enfranchised?
The more you know, the less you understand.
In my state you can get a ticket for not wearing your seat belt. A cop can pull you over JUST FOR THAT. Why? What if I WANT to fly through my windshield?
If you or your front-seat passenger is flying through the windshield, you are jeopardizing the control of your car. Even after an initial impact, you can often do things to lessen the severity of an accident to others, and the seatbelt keeps you where you can do so.
Note that if you want to fly through your windshield, I believe that you are legally entitled to do so on your own private road. You can also drive an unsafe vehicle there. On government-owned roads, however, you have requirements that your vehicle be in reasonably safe condition and that you are capable of controlling it.
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
...not to mention: SUGAR is a GENUINE nutrient. It is needed by the body as anything else. Infact, it's what powers you. While other parts of the body can live off of fat if need be, the brain needs sugar no matter what.
Fruit juice is not necessarily any worse than Fruit itself. I wonder if this flake is anti-fruit as well.
Apples are eViL!...
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Fructose is the primary usable in Fruit to begin with. A fruit juice quite often is merely a reflection of the original article.
Mindless hysteria about sugar in general is the result of having a very superficial understanding of nutrition primarily the result of rumour and pisspoor journalism.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
I can just see it...a nationwide underground "union", formed by PO'ed kids, that fund a group of blackhats to update their records on the servers so the parents think they're doing great in school. It could be the biggest moneymaker on the Web .
The Wknd Sessions - Malaysian and South East Asia independent music
In the hundred-odd years that we've seen teenagers as something unto themselves, they have, by and large, not been subject to anything like the kind of scrutiny, surveillance, and distrust that they are subject to today.
And lo, the race has survived.
While I will grant that there are things that are more common among teenagers today than they were thirty years ago -- getting falling-down-drunk on senior skip day comes to mind -- the proper solution to the problem is probably not to make adolescence weirder and more difficult than it already is. Far better to find the cause of what is seen as undesirable behavior on the part of teenagers; then work on solving the problem, rather than just treating kids with less and less and less respect (which -- hey! -- may just be part of the problem in the first place!)
I don't expect anything to be done along those lines anytime soon, though, because actually solving problems requires careful thought, observation, and an open mind. It's much easier to fit kids with shock collars, if necessary.
I think you're looking for a scape-goat. I had what I considered a fairly restricted up-bringing... but I've re-adjusted since then. It started by doing a foreign exchange year at university, and then emmigrating after graduation at 21 years old. Let me tell you, the personal challenges and the efforts involved of living in a foreign country (even ones similar like the UK and Canada) are enough to bring you out of your shell. Look within, don't try to blame your parents. Blame is for the lazy, and won't solve your problems. Challenge yourself.
Sorry if that sounds harsh, that's just my view and experience on things.
Better idea still, try actually helping them become adults you don't HAVE to control.
What? Kids are supposed to become independent, responsible adults eventually? You mean they're NOT just adorable little pets?
~ radiographite: art by john shepard
Whats stopping him from getting/paying another kid to buy it for him or just switching lunches?
Next year they'll install a few thousand hidden cameras throughout the school and all around the school grounds, to ensure such insidious behavior is no longer possible...
~ radiographite: art by john shepard
Fruit juice isn't bad for you, but something tells me that the stuff in question wasn't fruit juice. To be called fruit juice, it probably has to actually derive from fruit - this stuff was probably derived from FD&C Red 40 and high fructose corn syrup.
~ radiographite: art by john shepard
My experience has been that the parents of the bullies already KNOW what their kids are doing - they either don't care, or don't believe it, or worst of all, don't see anything wrong with it.
~ radiographite: art by john shepard
Rather than learning to be accountable for their actions, the students will just learn that Big Brother is Watching. How do you think they'll behave when they are in places where they're NOT under constant surveilance?
It does, but it doesn't. It basically makes you a legal unit of your parents, so in a sense, they can't deny bill of rights, unless your parents give approval. Or so I understand it...
Um, how many times have we seen reports of Amazon's customer information being hacked? Skyward is pretty stupid if they think that comparing their security to Amazon's security makes them look good...
It is the typical desire for a quick fix for one of lives problems. We all want a quick fix. Eat right? Heck, no. Just give me the blood thinner to keep from having another heart attack.
Spend time raising Johnny? Heck, no. Lets just find out why he is acting crazy and try to treat it after the fact with high-tech devices. "This new technology is great! I can see what John did today without even having to talk to him. Now I can work 14 hour days and not bother with seeing my family."
This reminds me of a story about elephants (I believe) that were moved to a new area to try and rebuild the population. They were running rampant and destroying various structures. That is until some older animals were brought in. The elders let the young bucks have it and suddenly the population was a well behaved group. (Unfortunately this mirrors the lack of parental responsibility taken today far to well.)
I don't know how you define junk food. This kid has now been banned from buying fruit juice!!!! How can you call that junk food?
Lets try: Fruit Juice is just liquid sugar. Like soda with a few extra vitamins and no fizz. The obesity and dibetic problem with America's children has a major cause of all the sugars we feed them (in addition to the sedate lifestyle of TV and video games, instead of exercising). Have a coke. Have a fruit juice. Have some Kool Aid. Ever hear of water? Thirst quencher without sugar?
Fruit juice is not necessarily any worse than Fruit itself. I wonder if this flake is anti-fruit as well.
Yes, Fruit Juice is VERY different from the actual fruit. Fruit contains ruffage which causes the body to use the sugar in the fruit much slower causing a longer release into the bloodstream. Fruit juice is rapidly sent to the blood stream causing a rapid spike which upsets insulin balance.
Just because something sounds against popular believe does not mean that it is incorrect or that the given of this knowledge is a flake.
Yep. That way, when you die, your kids can flounder completely lost with no means to control themselves.
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
I'm sorry I've heard abotu this and heard ppl trying to market teh idea, but if parents arent' even watchign their kids at home, why woudl they watch them at school. my sister, my mom, my gf mom, well there are many teachers inmy family and the biggest complaints are parents who are non existent when it comes to monitoring their childs behavior. be on purpose or not, if there isn't time to do this and spend time with kids whats th epoint now all you will have is kids that are carefully watched by some online snoopy parent but rarely gets the physical interaction they need. and I'm not even going to talk about the perverts who will tap into this to watch kids.
What does this say about kids?
--The very fact that they need this kind of supervision says something. I'm not for one believing that the media & games are responsible for more violence in schools today, just worse parenting. No--I'm not calling everyone out there bad parents, just on the average, I'd bet that parents spend a lot less time with their children today than they did 15, 20, or even 40 years ago.
Children need guidance. Without guidance, things become chaotic. I don't know what else to call what's been going on in schools the last few years besides chaotic.Hopefully this will change, eventually.
-Julius X
-Julius X
remove "-whatkindofspamdoyoutakemefor-" from email to send
It's strict parenting in the same sense that having the government track me would be strict governing.
Parenting is not about knowing everything your kid did today down to when they took a bathroom break (well, at least not by the time they get into school, that *is* reasonable parenting for an infant and toddler), it's a lot more about how you view and relate to and treat your kids.
The problem with this (and numerous other 'parenting' devices, and that's exactly what they are) is that it allows parents who use them to *believe* they are being better parents, when, the truth is, no monitoring, no device, can make you a better parent, and good parents have been around a hell of a lot longer than modern tech.
Incidently, I had strict (I didn't have a curfew -- I was expected at home every day directly after school or official school activities, where I could then request to go elsewhere, and that request could [and often was] denied, simply because my parents didn't want me to leave the house that day) parents who also gave me a hell of a lot of responsibility (housework, car work, caring for the younger sib and cousins, and I worked full time from the age of 15, and worked odd jobs long before that). Even though they were abusive, rotten folks in some ways (don't even tell me I'm wrong without knowing of what I speak) I managed to turn out okay in the responsibility department. (Which is different than turning out okay 100%, but gives one a much better base for dealing with abuse issues than *not* turning out well in the responsibility department)
Strict parenting and giving responsibility, however, are two separate things. I know plenty of kids whose parents were strict, but never gave them responsibility, and those are the ones who have major problems. I tend to refer to such kids as having "rich kid syndrome" -- they lack responsibility and forethought, and expect the world and everyone in it to come to their aid. While it's not *just* rich kids who have it, and while not all rich kids have it, it seems that the parents who are more interested in money than spending time with their kids, and are often also interested in making it easier for their kids than it was for them, and end up making it too easy for their kids, turn these kids out more than poor parents. It might also be that without their mommy and/or daddy's money such kids don't end up places where I'm likely to see them.
I suspect that these kids are what the original poster is referring to as 'spoiled'.
OTOH, kids who are given both freedom and responsibility from a young age seem to do pretty well as well.
Kids given neither freedom nor responsibility, well, I pity them and society.
I can think of some specific instances when tech like this could be useful for parenting. In most of them it means that *someone* has already screwed up in parenting that child.
And yes, I'm talking from the perspective of a parent.
rark!
I'm inclined to agree that just blaming parents is useless, but one wonders if there's a better way to convince people that parenting is an important job, and that bringing up another human being, helping them learn how to live in a society, will be the hardest and possibly the most rewarding job in their lives, but that the reward comes much later. Babies are cute. That doesn't really compare to 24/7 care. But that having a kid because you want to continue playing with dolls/to keep a relationship/to keep up with the jonses/to shut up the grandparents/etc is screwing with another person's life.
And I agree, it *has* to begin young. It has to begin from the time you bring that kidlet into the world (well, obviously if you adopt the rules change somewhat, but you get the point)
rark!
It's more then a slippery slope that we're dealing with. The system is supposedly there to allow _parents_ to track their children. How many parents are really going to take time our of their day to look and see that "ooo, my kid's out there in hallway B"?
No, I think it's much more likely that that's the surface of the real intention: to allow the authorities (be they teachers, security, or police) to monitor the children, with or without the consent/knowledge of their parents.
"You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocketship underpants don't help" -- Calvin
I would prefer the school districts use webcams in the classroom to show parents how their kids really get treated by teachers and other students.
This might also be a good idea to use in prisons..
Quite opposite. The kids will learn the value of not being monitored, and won't grow lethargic to future attempt of control.
BUT! Notice substatial difference.
Parents care for their children, because they love them. Govenrment will never love you or your children. They might love your money and servility. While govs are obliged to serve for the money they are getting from us, the dark side of some causes them slipping to tendencies to use power and entrusted money to extort more money and assume more power for their own benefit and prosperity.
Even aside from this aspect, while I finance you, you are answerable for what you are doing no matter how often and using which means I check you - whether you are my child or government official.
If you fail and misuse my money (for lunch that I did not authorize or for government control spying on me), it's up to me what I'll do. If you are my kid, I will perhaps still finance you, just cause you are MY kid. If you are government official, time to stop financing you and get somebody more honest in replacement.
Because, honestly, we will still love our kids but we will ever hardly love such government.
Petrus
BTW: If I would always police my child, will he ever learn to use some self-control?
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IANAL, but see Gideo v. Wainwright and other such cases involving Incorporation. Basically, the Supreme Court has upheld that the Bill of Rights, yes, all of it, applies to the States as well as the Federal Government. So if the schools are state run, then yes, this applies to them.
On second thought, I should say this would apply to them. I believe the phrase is "unreasonable search and seizure," and checking up on your child's performance in school is certainly not unreasonable.
To extend the argument both ways:
/. earlier) we have thought-sensing devices, do parents then have the right to implant them in their kids, so they'll know when the kid is thinking about committing a crime, fantasizing about having sex, or maybe having a snack before dinner?
As a child, I want to be able to track my parents. I want to make sure that they're not up to no good, cheating on each other, acting in ways counter to my best interests. I want to know how much time they spend at their desk, how much time at the water cooler, and whether they're late home because they're playing Diablo II or cheating with their secretary (by using alpha-channel video card mods while playing quake, of course).
On the other hand, those folks who say that children have no right to expect privacy because parents are liable for the childrens' actions, where does this line stop? If (as mentioned on
Broad generalizations are always harmful. (laugh, okay?)
Kevin Fox
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Kevin Fox
> 'I think the more we can control our kids, the better off in the long run they'll be.'
I guess that explains why so many kids get killed in drunk driving accidents their very first weekend away at college.
Responsibility isn't something that magically appears on your 18th birthday.
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Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
If the system described in the article fit with either the comments or the title then this would be a big scary deal. Seeing a kid's grades or lunch menu is not the same as tracking or controlling.
I know that my kids eat junk at school - big surprise. I tell them to eat better, and hope that they'll live long enough to learn why. If they get detention I know, because I have to wake them up early to get there.
On the other hand, there are times when it would be great to see their detailed grade records. They don't remember all the grades they've gotten in their classes. Sometimes they don't even know which work got graded and which didn't. If we could log in and see where they're really at then I could help them learn to apply some strategy to their grade averages. That's a good life lesson.
Now if we could just get software that prevents morons from becoming newswriters...
You never really know how close to the edge you can go until you fall off.
There is no blanket formula for raising responsible, capable, well-adjusted kids (read with a threshold below 2 around here for further proof). Each parent needs to be as involved in the supervision of their own kids to the level the child demonstrates is necessary. Helping kids learn the right way to make choices - sometimes dictating those choices for them - does not equal spoiling them, or crippling them intellectually or emotionally. It also does not make them incapable of making appropriate choices or being less well-rounded. Responsibility != Freedom Freedom = Privelage Responsibility comes with expectations and is given. Privelages are earned. Each is done to the level the individual has shown an ability to handle. To do otherwise is to be foolish.
Have you looked at the ingredients list for most "fruit juice" drinks lately? The first 2 things on there are water (makes sense, from concentrate, after all) and SUGAR. Then you get the fruit part.
If it doesn't say "100% fruit juice" on it, you don't want your kids drinking a lot of it. And frankly, for the cost difference betwen the flavored sugar water and real fruit juice, do you really want to guess which most schools have?
This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is... Oops. Frank, I've got your sig again! Where's mine?
It seems (at least to me) like a fairly simple concept. The more one enacts control, the less control one has. Think about from the perspective of the person who is being "controlled".
If you're forced into things (no matter what they may be) aren't you more likely not to want to do them, if only because you don't want to be forced into things?
The sad thing is that as far as the teachers/parents/administrators/whatevers are concerned, the system works just fine. They just need to try a little hard to make it work perfect.
As far as I can see, the more they try, the worse it's going to work.
--
Give a man a match, you keep him warm for an evening.
Give a man a match, you keep him warm for an evening.
Light him on fire, he's warm for the rest of his life
This is starting to drive me crazy. Over the past few years I have watched as the restrictions, metal detectors, web cams, and ID badges have gone in place at schools. Is it just me, or has this gone too far?
I had the unique position while I was in High School to help make some policies that are still in place today. In my last week there (which happened to be a few weeks afer Columbine), I watched as the "School Saftey" committee reported on what should be done. ID badges for everyone, metal detectors at the door, police patrols of the building, and cameras everwhere. Excuse me for a moment, but schools are supposed to be a place of learning, correct? If that is the case, why not teach wrong from right?
It seems to me that all the teachers and aministrators are treating the symptoms and not the cause of these problems. Someone brings a gun to school, the immediate response is add metal detectors. Shouldn't the response be teaching that bringing guns to school is wrong? Someone unknown is roaming the halls and we didn't know. Immediate response: everyone must wear ID badges at all times. Wait a minute, I knew alomst everyone in my class, and I think the student population could easily identify someone out of place. But, no teaching the students to question folks would be bad. Instead let's show the world who everyone is, just in case someone does get in with someone in mind to find, they will be easily spotted.
I admit, I came from a smaller school (around 600 students total), and these solutions are not suited to larger ones. However, I still don't think treating the symptoms is the way to cure the desease. How about we stop pushing kids to always give 115%, and let them do what they can. I get a little bent when I am required to put in long hours and extra effort at work for extended periods. The current thinking is that if you are not in the to 0.05% of your class you will never get anywhere in life. With conditions like that, no wonder students are doing irrational things.
-Carl "No, we already thought of that one. 'Why?' '42' - It doesn't fit." -Hitchhiker'
The work of a child is play.
The work of the teenager is separation.
The reason it's really hard being a teenager or the parent of a teenager is that they need more guidance than they think but less than their parents think. What develops is a series of uneasy trials where privileges are granted (or taken), abused then temporarily withdrawn (e.g. "You didn't come home by 11 like you said you would so I can't trust you yet with the car. When you show you do what you say I'll reconsider.")
It's messy and difficult but character building.
I don't think monitoring is a big deal for younger children, and could be valuable in cases where there are custody disputes. But for older kids, too much supervision is almost as bad as none.
If they never have to be trusted, how will they learn to be trustworthy?
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
I'm not American so I can't speak from experience here but it seems like the problem is that no-one keeps track of kids whilst at school. If they can run 'off the tracks' without anyone that is capable of stoping them noticing then how is knowing what they ate for lunch going to help? While I think you could probably understand a great deal by looking at the parents, I'm sure there are cases where the parents simply can't connect with their kids through no real fault of their own. Where are the teachers at this time? If the teachers don't know their students, I suggest that is the thing you first start addressing rather than taking away the privacy of students. As a student I had a student mentor, a peer-support leader and a roll-call teacher. Most days I saw at least two of these people about (obviously roll-call was mandatory) - this is in a school of 1200 people. If a teacher knows a students personality, has day to day contact with them and teaches them, each student has a valuble long-term relationship with at least one person in their school and through the teacher the school has a better understanding of their students. 'Big-Brother' seems to be an answer to everything these days. I see it as a loss of privacy and an incredibly large cop out.
"kids nowadays"? Who are you to make such rash generalisations? But I'm sure when you were a kid you were perfectly capable of seeing the consequences of your actions. No, the problem is with the kids today.
spoo
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The future of tracking is already implemented, just not cost effective enough for schools yet. There is no need to take attendance if every student's ID is being tracked continuously as they move through the campus. Arrival time, exit time, even bathroom time can be added up and presented for review. This has been a labor negotiation issue for hospital workers. Hospital administrators like to see how fast a patient alarm was attended to but nursing personell objected to the second guessing that such absolutest, although seemingly objective, standards implied. High school students don't have the negotiating power that employees do and it is unlikely that their parents would prevent such a system from being installed. What protects students today is the cost of such a system.
Similarly, an OnStar equipped car has the equipment onboard to allow it to be tracked continuously but to do so would require a cell phone connection to be maintained whenever the vehicle was in motion. Much too expensive for the benefit. In the future however cell phone antennae based tracking will allow all vehicles with a powered on cell phone inside the vehicle to be tracked even if the user is not talking. It will be possible to track no only how fast a vehicle was driven, but where it went and how long it stayed at each stopping point.
I could see this school web site as being useful to students as well as parents if it forced teachers to unambiguously state what work was expected of students and when the work was due. My biggest problems were with teachers who vaguely mentioned an assignment and then graded you on how well you caught their drift when you handed work in. Unfortunately I doubt it does anything to ease the burden on students to figure out what was expected of them.
This is the best idea they've come up with so far. All they need to do is tie in some web cams and we can have a whole new reality based TV/Web show. With a subscription model to sell feeds of the girls locker room!
"Tommy, why were you spending so much time in the bathroom at school today? Are you feeling ok?"
No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow. - Cmdr. Susan Ivanova
From all of the "24/7 monitoring" responses it looks like people are not reading the article. This kind of system is something that the schools have been waiting for eagerly. Many parents are technology savvy and are used to doing realtime online banking, managing investments, getting wire news &c. Now that it is increasingly likely that teachers have email at their schools, and the taxpaying parents are shelling out for it, it is natural for parents to expect increased interaction, news, and feedback from the teachers.
On the other hand, most teachers are not comfortable using technology, they do not have a lot of time in their day to add correspondance, the training provided by the schools is usually bad, and they are increasingly expected to use email or the web for school-home communication with no adjustments made to their schedules or compensaion. There are already a number of web sites that allow browser based updating of course assignments or news, and I know of many teachers that are setting up mail lists. (eschoolhouse.com, highwired.com) All that this system purports to do is add attendance information -- otherwise it has all been done before.
This is a Good Thing. Systems like this will reduce the (time) impact on teachers of using the Internet in a meaningful way, it will keep parents more engaged in the education of their kids, and it will increase accountability of the schools once the parents have a portal through which to view things. The only assumption is that the school districts adopting this will give the teachers additional prep time or increase their compensation. I would be intersted in knowing how all of those Washington schools are handling it.
the "new software" sounds remarkably like a database. As far as the article states, the purpose is
"to see whether their kids skipped class, handed in their homework and even what they had for lunch."
This information is already available to parents. The fact that it's on a database, denotes efficiency, not espionage.
... challange for childern to get around.
For example, in the article a kid was eating all junk food, the parents found out and now he can't be served that sort of food anymore.
Whats stopping him from getting/paying another kid to buy it for him or just switching lunches?
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
State control and monitoring is always done in the name of "law and order". But it is always done for the benefit of state power.
And this sounds like another plan to get the kids used to being controlled and monitored, without protesting.
--
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
Isn't it funny how those of us who _know_ technology know better than to think that technology is the panacea. Those who don't are easily susceptible to the siren song: "This technology will solve the problem".
--
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
Did you catch Frontline last night? No control is *way* worse than too much control.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
I once heard a guy say that sometimes his teenage daughter would say that she hated him for making more rules. His response (he said) was along the lines of, "I love you and respect you so much that I'm going to make sure you can handle freedom when you're an adult, and if that means that you hate me, then that's a price I'm willing to pay."
This guy was a retired CIA agent, too.
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
The more you control your children, the more likely you are to have a mindless robot. Maybe that's exactly what some parents want ... a minion to do their bidding... but it's the last thing society needs more of.
---
I hope you're not pretending to be evil while secretly being good. That would be dishonest.
Not only that, but then the geeks/nerds get to have mom and dad watching how badly they're treated at school, which is a real great way to add insult to injury. I've been there, the last thing I wanted to do was have mom and dad feel sorry for the way I was treated in school.
These days, it seems like kids are being controlled more and more closely by their parents. They don't get to make mistakes, because mommy and daddy are there to tell them what to do and what not to do. I just finished my freshman year of college, and I saw the results of this kind of parenting: even at a prestigious technical college where you'd expect only smart kids to be enrolled, these kids were acting like it was high school with no rules. They did drugs and drank too much, failed classes, etc.
Meanwhile, my friends and I, whose parents allowed us to learn from our occasional mistake, were trying to get our lives started by becoming adults. I think this system is a really great way to babysit our kids' every moves, but I think that doing that, then expecting them to magically become responsible adults when they graduate is a grave mistake.
The fact of the matter is that the parents of bullies are either:
a) Bullies themselves
b) Think what their kids are doing is just playing.
c) Just don't care
So it's not like they dont' know what their kids are doing, they just dont see anything wrong with it.
more dumbed down adults who will be even LESS equipped to deal with stressful situations and to survive on their own than now
Exactly. We are not sheep, but a majority of us certainly fit the description...
We put warning labels on everything, sue restaurants for serving us hot coffee, and make ridiculous laws for the 'sake of the children.' In my state you can get a ticket for not wearing your seat belt. A cop can pull you over JUST FOR THAT. Why? What if I WANT to fly through my windshield?
An above poster mentioned watching a father having to try to save his son after a nasty bout with alcohol. Sorry, that doesn't tug my heartstrings. I am a firm follower of evolution and Darwinism. (Go listen to a few George Carlin albums.) People do stupid things. It's a function of evolution that people who do stupid things DIE so their stupid genes don't spread around the pool and irritate the rest of us.
We don't need to monitor our kids. If parents (and teachers) were worth anything themselves, the kids would have a decent head on their shoulders and wouldn't need supervision. Hidden cameras won't make up for bad parenting.
"Smear'd with gumms of glutenous heat, I touch..." - Comus, John Milton
The House Between - Original Sci-Fi Series
All these replies are missing the point. Maybe I rambled a bit but the idea I was trying to get across is that "hidden cameras don't make up for bad parenting."
(You were correct in pointing out my bad choice of grammar to describe my philosophy on evolution. We are all subject to it but some folks are in denial of the law of survival of the fittest; I was merely trying to point out that I am not one of those people. If I am stupid enough to drink Windex I deserve to get sick.)
And for those who nit-picked, my Honda has automatic seatbelts. It was just a freakin' example. Can we get back to talking about the student tracking now?
"Smear'd with gumms of glutenous heat, I touch..." - Comus, John Milton
The House Between - Original Sci-Fi Series
Actually yes it is easy to tell from the crash if the occupants were wearing their seatbelt.
In reality that has no bearing on what goes on in court, which is who is going to make the insurance company pay lawsuit damages. In the state I live, the fact that a driver was not wearing a seatbelt is not admissable evidence or I wouldn't be in the lawsuit that I'm in. (See response to above). So, ultimately it does go right back to the government.
Spyky
Actually there is a very good reason for seatbelt laws. If you go flying through the windshield and break your neck, who pays for your million dollar medical bills? Yeah, your insurance company. And who pays for that? Everyone who has insurance. So for my sake and everyone else who drives and has to pay insurance bills, wear your god damn seatbelt.
Hey you can do something stupid and die and thats just fine with me. But if I gotta pay for it, well I got a problem.
Spyky
Well good argument, but I think you are the one on the slippery slope.
Having cops not burst in to your home is a right (see 4th Amendment), and although less explicitly, so is sexual preference. Driving is not a right. You give up certain rights to drive on public roads. If you want to drive on such roads you have to get a license right? You also have to stay under the speed limit and obey other traffic laws. By extension, if you want to drive on public roads, you have to put on a seatbelt. Freedom snatching my ass, you give up freedoms all the time. You want to get paid/invest in the stock market/purchase goods, you give up your freedom to *not* pay taxes. Same deal.
I'm just as freedom coveting as you are in reality, and I bitch about taxes every time they eat half of my paycheck. The real reason why I feel the way I do about seatbelts is that I was involved in such an accident 4 years ago, where the other driver was not wearing a seatbelt. I was. He was hurt, I walked away.
Four years later, the pain-and-suffering lawsuit (for $300k) is finally entering court. His medical bills were already covered by insurance.
Spyky
>It is up to us to tell them:
>"You are not numbers! You are free persons!"
Repeat after me: We are all individuals!!
//rdj
No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
--Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
Just make sure that it's neck-collars, not bracelets or anklets. Those would permanently damage the jocks...
//rdj
No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
--Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
no.. kids do NOT need control.. they need guidance.
//rdj
No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
--Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
Are they going to place trackers in the kids' clothing? It could be just like "Ender's Game" and such -- kids running around naked to avoid detection.
.sig!
Help! I forgot my
This is absolutely correct -- my parents treated me as though I was 18 when I was 15. (Responsibility wise, not alcohol wise.) Now that I am 19, I am able to solve problems myself -- I am fairly independant.
---
Well, Perhaps "easy" was overstating it, because drawing the appropriate line is hard. But describing *what* to do is easy. The advice was actually given to me by my father-in-law, who is the only parent I know who successfully raised an extremely mature woman whom I later married. So this advice was from a man who had seen a child from birth to marriage.
This is an excellent way to spoil your kids. Want to know the best way to raise responsible kids? It's easy! Treat them like they're 2 years older than they really are. This doesn't mean they get ultimate freedom, but if you treat a 13 year old like they're 15, they'll act that way. If you treat a 13 year old like they're 11, they'll act that way too.
:) But the best way to teach kids to act responsibly with a lot of freedom is to slowly give them more and more freedom, and trust their choices. (Of course, you're allowed to comment on your preferences as long as you're clear that you'll respect any of their decisions on the matter at hand.)
The more you trust your kids to make their own decisions, the more responsible they'll become. Things just go wrong when a 17 year old is treated like they're 13, and when they become 18, they don't know how to act responsibly with their freedom.
Cameras in schools just encourage parents to treat kids like they're younger than they are. This might be good for 13 year olds who act 9 (ie. spoiled), but perhaps some better parenting would have a bigger impact.
Now I'm not going to get all SlashDottish now and go overboard on "rights" and stuff.
-Ted
If you use this system you are a spineless coward and a lousy parent. And having a job isn't a good excuse for not parenting, it's confirmation that you don't spend enough time with your kid(s).
This post expresses my opinion, not that of my employer. And yes, IAAL.
Given that probably the biggest problem with kids these days is related to the fact that parents do not take a decent interest in what their kids do, and that they mainly leave it up to "The System" to raise their kids properly, I highly doubt parents would use this kind of a system.
It is more likely that school officials and other 'officials' would be using this type of technology.
Let's face it... In today's US society, the government and school system have taken over the role of parents in raising the kids to a large extend. Child protection services and such have a higher authority than parents do, and school have so many responsibilities that parents should have kept. Parents in the past being lazy about their task obviously has led to a society where common sense is extinct.
In a society where it is perfectly fine for a school bus to cause all traffic to come to a complete stop to let kids off the bus, and where then crossing guards stop traffic to allow kids to cross AGAINST the traffic light signals...
When I was in high school (79-83), I always carried a knife with me. I had drugs on my person, and gave them to others. I routinely ignored a teacher, I walked out of class, I walked out of school with a printer one day. I played video games.
Was I horrible? Incorrigible? A thug?
Hell NO!
I carried a knife because it was a tool: I was always being asked to fix things for other students.
I carried asprin in my billfold because I got incredible headaches. When my friends also got headaches, I gave them asprin as well.
I ignored the teacher because he was an imbecile who could coach tennis, but not teach math. He once was unhappy because I found the slope of a line by differentiating the equation in my head, rather than computing (y2-y1)/(x2-x1) as the teacher's guide said.
I left class to go work on the school's computers. I was in charge of the computer room: the principal himself gave me the authority to deal with troublemakers.
The printer was broken and out of warranty, and I could solder the broken connection faster than the local computer shop could fix it.
In short, I was the typical geek. I had several honors, and I am now a (very ) productive member of society, and I've never even killed anyone.
But now-a-days I'd not be let within 100 meters of a school....
A friend of mine mad an interesting point: "We grew up with Johny Quest. The rules were simple: we kill the bad people with guns. We grew up OK. Now these kids grow up with Smurfs and Carebears, and they are doing crack and killing each other!"
Something is wrong here....
www.eFax.com are spammers
SCOTUS would probably suggest that there is no reasonable right to privacy for students in a school. ISTR that they've (well, maybe not the current members, but not THAT long ago) upheld locker searches on a similar basis. And as long as the school makes sufficient effort to restrict access to the monitoring data to parents and school administrators, that argument might still stick.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Children are children.
... Just because many parents do not care of pay attention to what their children are doing doesnt make it wrong for those who do care.
Your exactly right. The problem that you run into is the defination of child:
A person between birth and puberty.
When a child is no longer a child, it's not approprate to treat them as such. As it's mentioned in the article, once children hit middle school, the attitude has changed from emptying out the backpacks to don't touch my stuff. I think at this point we, as responsible adults, need to take our children's needs and wants into consideration when we make decisions. You wouldn't continue to kiss your child every day in public after they asked you to stop. In the same way you shouldn't monitor their actions if they ask you to stop.
As a parent I have the right and responsibility to know what they are doing and where they are at any time I want to until they are of legal age.
By taking this hard line approach, your going to be teaching your children that's it's acceptable to have someone, even their parents, watching their every move, making decisions on their behalf.. For their own good, of course. Now just think if that could be done for you. I could just see it now.. I'm sorry Dave, I can't let you have that ice cream, you've had too much fat today.
Those parents who have properly raised their children with morals and respect don't need to worry nearly as much. Those who also keep an open line of communication as children become young adults and can talk about what's going on in their child's life don't need to worry at all.
Dude, fruit juice is not bad for you. Glad they're allowing parents to have such useful influences over their children at school. Guess it'd be better if they ate a burger and fries every single day, which was the "healthy" choice in our HS cafeteria.
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It has become quite popular among the students and parents. About 40% of the students have signed up for it voluntarily, and less than 5% of the parents have signed up, even though the URL is placed on the automated attendance warning letters.
It is interesting what concerns came up during the development of the program:
This leaves the kids, of course, to monitor themselves, which is exactly what they do, and exactly who should be responsible for it in the long run. I really love the fact that I have a large number of kids who were able to use my program to watch their own bum, and not exceed the absence maximum and get kicked out of school.
In this case, I think the monitoring is to the benefit of the kids. I plan on doing more work, to include things like intelligent course selection, online awards applications, and so on...
Wouldn't they at the very least provide some measure of protection, such as contacting school staff to look out for you, or consider homeschooling as an option?
The parents should be expected to lead by example, or be exposed as hypocrites.
-----------------------
Nicotine free Amish .sig.
You bring up good points. Lots of school systems would give their left arm for $20 million to spend on computers and textbooks, etc... this seems like an awful waste of money to me.
--
--
"What do you want me to do? Whack a guy? Off a guy? Whack off a guy? Cause I'm married."
That's a pretty bold assertion, Mr. Insightful. Got anything to back that up?
--Lawrence Lessig for Congress!
Ok, I can understand the rest, but tracking lunch purchases? Is it just me, or is it a little odd that the school keeps track of what individual students eat to begin with? Is such information being tracked without the consent of students and parents who do not use the system?
And what else does the school system do with the information?
Of course, but so what? You're making that assumption that just because a parent has told his child what to do (or not), that the child will listen. How absurd!!! For all you know, the parent could have been trying to get his kid to stop eating ice cream for months now, but the kid just doesn't care and does it anyway.
--
Lord Nimon
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
I wont get into the whole weither this software is right or not convo, but I can tell you what it's like to be followed like this.
I started high school the exact same time my mom took a job as (tada!) Attendance Secretary at the school (now she's the principal's secretary, ie, the one who's really in charge). She knew all my teachers because daily they would have to bring the slip saying who was at what class up to the attendance office. She could see weither I Was in class or not, as well as talk with the teachers about what was going on (This is how I suddenly found myself going to tutoring in Math. My Mom knew about my overall failing grades and bad math score before me).
This had a couple of effects:
Good: For one, I paid attention more in classes, I was a lot nicer, I got some better treatment from the teachers. My grades (except math:b) were very good and I actually made National Honor Society.
Bad: I _had_ to follow the rules to the letter. I could never speak out against the school. EVERYTHING I did was reported to my parents. I couldn't support friend swhen they had problems with teachers else it'd suddenly become a problem on the homefront as well as school. They would know where my money went for school lunches.
In the end while I did do good in school, I really felt like I was being stalked by 'big brother' (for lack of a better word.). So I came out of high school with honors, but somewhat paranoid and didn't have as much fun as I felt my friends had.
Where was citizen 626-45-8892 on the night of tuesday the 14th?
Citizen 887-14-0923, we noticed that for three days last week your traffic pattern analysis deviated by 15 miles from its usual pattern. Would you mind explaining what you were doing?
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I find it interesting that in the USA, the bill of rights doesn't apply if your under 18.
I think it's about time this was implemented. Kids get the idea, real early in age, that when they are at school there is no control. No one watching them, making sure they are behaving. There are lots of examples: the first school yard bully I ran into was at 2nd grade. No teacher: lots of bullying. Teacher showed up: he behaved himself.
I also like this idea of being able to monitor my child in school. I give him money to buy lunch, I want to make sure he buys something other than candy bars and soda. Sugar does not get you through the day as good as a well rounded meal.
Link this up with live video feeds and I can find out which kids in school are harassing him verbally and physically and BRING A STOP TO IT before it gets out of hand.
Kids aren't interested in trust. No one is interested in trust. It doesn't enter into the equation.
And I for one look forward to having kids, just so I can PING them all day long...
That's a scary thought. Think of what it says when the ping comes back: "Timmy is alive". The odd days when there's severe packetloss would give me heart attacks!
J
Who moderates the meta-moderators?
It only means parents can keep track of their kids, it doesn't make parents have to care about what they're doing...
- Sig
I could call the school tie up some mid level educrat every day and find out all this information. Its just allot easier now. As a Taxpayer I think the schools should put up all the data as a whole, sans the identify of the students. Then I as a taxpayer can hold the school board more accountable.
Letting parents track their kids' movements so they'll stay on the straight and narrow - what a great idea! And since parents have their children's welfare at stake, I'm sure they'll have no problem with applying the same principles to themselves and letting their kids track THEIR movements with the same software.
Now, when Johnny comes home to an empty house after school, he can log in to this system and see mommy lingering at the gym counter and daddy stopped at a street corner in a strange part of town, and know just what they're doing instead of spending their time raising him well.
(-1, Angry Former Kid, right? Thank God I'm not trying to grow up in present-day America.)
TomatoMan
-- http://frobnosticate.com
The quote is: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary security, deserve neither Liberty nor security."
You sure about that? The on I have written down goes: "A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order will deserve neither and lose both." I'dl like to get the correct one for my collection.
-----
"Goose... Geese... Moose... MOOSE!?!?!"
Higher Logics: where programming meets science.
Parents with NMK (not my kid) syndrome have taken the teeth from the teachers. I remember getting threatened with the paddle when I was in grade school. You will never see that now! Also, the first thing I will tell, my kids teachers and principals, is that they have permission to do whatever they want (within reason that is...they don't have permission to beat my kid black and blue) so long as they tell me. If I ever here my kid is acting up and the teacher did nothing, then I want to know why!
I agree with several others on there that posted that kids don't have rights and, to a certain extent, they don't, nor should they! During the formative years, if kids are treated like adults and are given the freedom to do what they want when they want, then this country is going to fall apart. Kids, we are hard on you because we are trying to teach you the right thing. My mom wanted me in by 9 pm every night I was out unless I was on a school activity, or had permission (prom night we were out most of the night). I never went to places to drink, because in my house, you followed my parents rules just like I expect my son to follow mine. They aren't draconian, but they are designed to teach me (and now my son) right from wrong. You get out of line, and well, you have to face the consequences. If I ever talked back to my parents or tried to blame someone else for my mistake, ooo I'd get in so much trouble. Kids are to respect their parents. How can they if they are left to walk all over the parents??
Gorkman
>There are some children that probably should be watched closely
as a 15 year old, I think that there are a *lot* of adults who should be watched closely
"huhuhuhh, go away. we're like closed or something"
The difference lies in the day-to-day monitoring aspect, detail of it and ability to prevent your kid from doing "bad actions" like buying icecream. It has absolutely nothing to do with parenting. Checking the logs wether your kids did their homework that day or what they ate at lunch, is no assurance of their good health and well-being. The net effect being that the kids be further alienated from their parents, learn to accept monitoring and having no real choice and responsibility.
Furthermore, irresponsible parents will continue to be irresponsible. They will still do the wrong choices.
- Steeltoe
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
I agree. I would just like to add to your last sentence, that the total meaning of childhood is not just to produce an adult. Happiness NOW is pretty important no matter age. Maybe it should be The most important thing?
- Steeltoe
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
I've also seen it quoted with "safety" replacing "security".
I am still undecided (being a parent and a parent to be again) about this thing. Here's another view.
I suppose Ben was right, but other people here raise some good points. All teenagers are not created equal, some do need more supervision than others. The question is should we monitor everybody because of a few bad apples.
I suppose not. But I'd probably be singing a different toon if monitoring could somehow have saved my childs life. It's really not as cut and dry as some are making it out to be.
Stupid sexy Flanders.
Here is slightly different (s/obtain/purchase).
Quote Aholic does a s/security/safety.
This site agrees, but also gives a source: Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.
This site agrees, but attributes it to a letter to Josiah Quincy in 1773.
In fact, I find that more than any others.
However, I also read (sorry, don't have the source) that Ben was fond of borrowing ideas from other sources - reading lots of old books (he did own a book store at one time, if I'm not mistaken), and simply rephrasing some of the general ideas from them. Not that he wasn't a wise man - if it's true, he certainly picked up on the best ideas. Regardless, if it is true, then it's probably not necessary to get it exactly right, and he probably said it several times himself - perhaps interchanging obtaining/purchasing and security/safety himself.
Stupid sexy Flanders.
If McDonald's served 94 degree celcius coffee on purpose then they must have done they same every other time they served coffee.
If this was the first time that lady ever bought coffee from McDonald's I would understand, but shouldn't she have known how hot it would be from past experience?
That's kind of like buying [some heavy object] and then suiing if you drop it on your foot and injure yourself. Sometimes shit happens.
Actually, there is a very simple solution that doesn't involve the Government intruding in our lives. The PRIVATE insurance company can put it in their policy, if they choose, that they don't cover victims who weren't wearing a seatbelt. It's very easy for them to tell from a crash whether the seatbelt was employed or not.
I'm assuming they tell you what your kid had for lunch, so they can be confronted if they have an eating disorder. Confrontation is a much better way to solve that then "Let them starve and they'll learn the consequences themselves". It's a phase they'll grow out of as adults anyway. Well, what do I know? I am not a psychiatrist.
Anyway, fuck all that. It's nobody's damn business what their kid had for lunch. If they lose 50 pounds, then be concerned.
- control-freak parents will activly monitor their children, rather than the passive monitoring they can now do;
- It will further erode the need on the part of parents to observe their children on a personal level in order to have an impression of how they are doing. Whereas before, parents had to have at least a suspicion of deviant behavior before they would access these records, that need is being removed. Updates on a student's performance in school can now, for the lazy parent, be reduced from archaic things like talking and observing in the home to web-browsing.
- every class, homework assignment, and sandwich a student attends/hands it|ignores/consumes will now be on a long-term record. Students will operate with the knowledge that, once a day is over, their parents will be able, if they want to, scrutinize their actions of a few years ago with greater precision than a police would in an investigation. That's what is scientifically termed a 'mindfuck'.
- Following from point 3, students will be (further) socialized to accept background monitoring of their every action as normal behavior. Why would a student who has gone through this _begin_ to consider a system such as Carnivore to be anything but status-quo? Put another way, why _would_ a system such as Carnivore be anything but status-quo?
- from point 4, current and future parents will be (further) socialized to view a database of day-to-day actions on the part of their underlings to be expected. Why would they think _their_ superiors don't have the right to the same level of knowledge?
I guess what I'm saying is that the damage this will cause is that it will unnecessarily erode the expectation of privacy on the part of the current and future generations of decision-makers, towards themselves and those they have responsability for.Linus has,in fact,grown,and explosively-JonKatz
Parents are legally accountable for the actions of thier children. The parent is in charge of making sure the child goes to school, does thier schoolwork, and is in class. I don't see any reason why the child should have access to that kind of information about thier parent. The child is not accountable for the adult.\ =\=\=\=\
=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=
There si an easy solution. Monitor the teen, if they are being responsable then they shouldn't require thier every move to be tracked. Some kids NEED to be watched every second, it's just the way kids are.\ =\=\=\
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" A cop can pull you over JUST FOR THAT. Why? What if I WANT to fly through my windshield?"
\ =\=\=\=\
If you ahve an inury that could have ben prevented had you ben wearing a seatbelt then more people then yourself are hurt. Insurance rates will rise or stay high because of it, ambulance crews will be stressed beyond thier limits when they should be saving other people's lives.
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That's an awful lot of "supposing". You can up with things that will never happen in todays society. No one would put up with changing the number of years of schooling. Why would we want the middle class to stop gaining power? I can hypothisize anything if I "suppose" enough things...
\ =\=\=\
Suppose that a war breaks out with canada
Suppose that schools are employed to breed genetically supperiors solders by feeding them special foods for lunch.
Suppose that after the war these super kids are used as a new police fource to supress everyone in the country.
See how stupid it can get?
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It puts power into the hands of the parents, where it should be. We are always saying that parents need to watch thier kids while they are on the internet, many can't, this will help a little in allowing them to see what thier kids are doing. This could be a bad thing if the records are given to people other then the parents. This data is a gold mine for corperations that want demographics.= \=\=\=\=\=\=\=\
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I graduate from a private institution this Friday, and we implemented a similar system this year. While this may protect kids or not, what it will do is violate the rights of kids over 18 still in school, and allow serious abuses of power. What network is safe? And we're trusting this data in the hands of largely incompetent administrators?
I am ok with this idea, as long as it is consentual, as it is here, just as I may give permission for my parents to access my medical records or not.
For conspiracy theorists, get over it - the government already tracks what you do, so what?
For you "concerned parents" out there, consider the rights which you regularally deny children. Are those not the very same rights which you pride yourself on, the ones which we founded our country to preserve? I have never been property of my parents; I have been a sentient being forced to live under conditions mandated by so called 'responsible' adults, who were regularally more irresponsible than I. And I'm pretty irresponsible, admittedly. I recognize your concern for your children, but at least recognize your children's concern - remember these are the people who will pay your social security, decide to put you into a home or not(when you no longer become 'fit'), and decide how long to keep you plugged in.
While that last remark is rather bitter, I am very happy with my personal situation, but cannot fathom how you can justify controlling another person like that, regardless of their capacity. I guess the other sticking point is that children are only considered adults when it is convienient for adults, in court when they want to demonize kids. Make up your mind - either we are irresponsible and need this treatment, or we are capable, and deserve our rights. What I can say is that the selective treatment of minors is not alright in America. Even now, I can be drafted by the government and still not be allowed to legally drink alcohol. I wish I understood what logic backs any of this up...
<gets off soapbox>
"Hex, Bugs, and Rockn'Roll" --The Programmer's Digest
"Hex, Bugs, and Rockn'Roll"
lol! Ok, I will :-) I know parents who bring their children up this way, and they are some of the most healthy people I know. You obviously have different(perhaps more normal) experience than I and I respect that. I may just find that you are right. Maybe children's rights may become more of an issue as we stray more and more from athoritarianism enforced by phisical distinctions.
I just believe strongly in that the distinctions do not lie in age, but experience and maturity. While a governing body must handle this problem, and makes blanket rules for these people, there are important distinctions between different types of minors. Perhaps my complaint could be fixed with something as simple as more regular grants for emancipation for minors. I don't claim to know the right way, but I have presented my opinion and thanks for considering it at least. And no, in no way am I going to mess up the world :-) I'm a pacifist programmer with a terrible sense of humor, and politically a passionate socialist/libertarian.
"Hex, Bugs, and Rockn'Roll" --The Programmer's Digest
"Hex, Bugs, and Rockn'Roll"
Here's a hypothetical situation. Let's say that a parent goes into Parent-Teacher Conference nights and says things like "How's little Jimmy doing on his assignments?" or "Does Sarah have any unexcused absences this semester?" Naturally, the teacher would answer (except in the cases of 18-year-olds or whatever). Would that be an invasion of rights? Some big civil liberties thing? Or just a parent and teacher both doing their jobs?
I don't understand how having this available on the Internet is any different. So.. what? It's easier for parents and teachers to do their jobs? Academic performance is eroding steadily. Maybe if parents were a little more responsible and involved in their childrens' education, then this wouldn't be happening.
This just makes it easier for the parents to be responsible.
- In Capitalist America, law violates YOU!
Yup. Of the parents I've seen it's the baby-boomers that are too self-absorbed to pay attention to children. And the older generation(s) wonder why the younger generation(s) have little respect for them.
If Jesus saves, does he make any backups?
To-do List: Receive telemarketing call during a tornado warning. Check.
Really, how much of a stretch of logic does it take to move this from parents watching their kids to the government watching all of us. If you can rationalize letting parents (or anyone, for that matter) have "tracking" abilities, then you can rationalize giving the government authority to track all of us. The arguments are all the same.
I'll tell you another thing. I think all these overprotective parents quoted in the article need to have their asses kicked. I suggest we start tracking their movements and let their parents see what they have for lunch. How bad does "fruit juice and ice cream" sound compared to "3 martinis"? Besides, if you think your kid isn't eating well at school, so what? Make him eat at home. It's called "Being a parent," give it a try.
How are they going to handle students who DO have legal rights to not show information to their parents. For example, I am NOT required to show my parents my college grades, and they cannot legally request them. As of the age of 18, wouldn't this fall under the same general legal rules? When a senior comes of age, should the monitoring just stop???
I'm an AIX Systems administrator, and yes I do cry myself to sleep at night....
In my opinion, the problem is more of a slippery sloap problem. If we allow this, then yes we can monitor our children from work or home. But, what if someone was doing this in your work place? Would you feel comfortable with it. " It was good enough for me when I was a kid." I know I've heard it said around the office several times. Now that its in your workplace, why don't we just start monitoring people all over the nation. Its for your safety as much as anything else. And then of course that leads into a bunch of privacy issues.
We need to watch these kinds of things and be wary of anything that takes away the privacy of our children because they will grow up without knowing the importance of privacy.
What about racial issues or religious issues. Maybe these childrens parents will see that they are hanging around too much with those white kids or maybe the hispanics seem to be grouping together to much and parents may come demanding diversity be enforced or that their children shouldn't be fraternizing with any jewish kids. Very extrem points and very unlikely I know, but what if. We shouldn't invite this kind of thing. The writers of our constitution give us the right to pursue happiness even. It doesn't disregard children in that matter.
There are some children that probably should be watched closely, but I don't like the whole being punished for the few. I will conced however that it is nice to be able to see what your children are up to, but will its positives outweigh the negatives. Just bear that in mind when you think about your children. And remember its not us against them with children. We may be older but we were young once. We have learned from our experiences and we can teach that to others young or old, but we can't make them follow our lessons. Even by constant monitoring.
"He who gives up liberty for security gets neither." - Ben Franklin
I am a highschool student who is taking his courses in college instead of highschool. I know that my schedule is pretty full, taking 23 semester hours. My friends in highschool are typically there from 7:00 AM until well after 4:00 PM with extra-cirriculars and course work.
I know my parents do not have the time to live their lives, both busy with work, and mine, busy with school, at the same time. They, instead, ask me about my life, look at my grades, and have conferences with my counselors and teachers.
Believe me, they can tell if I don't do my homework or don't go to class. It's pretty clear when you have all A's and a D, like last semester for me, that homework or attendance or something became "optional."
More cameras are not a solution. Of course, I wouldn't mind pocketing a few of them and adding to my webcam collection...
I don't know how you define junk food. This kid has now been banned from buying fruit juice!!!! How can you call that junk food?
He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom
I can't say that I don't give a fuck. I've just run out of fuck to give.
Not exactly. For the most part despite their claims they know exactly what their children are doing, and they'll scapegoat it on someone else too. I should know. A few years back this kid tried to kick my ass (it was more of a draw than not) and I defended myself accordingly. Well, his mom was at school and you know what she did? She started yelling at me asking ME why I had started a fight with him even though I was attacked first. Not to mention that teachers are entering the data. The guy who ran the class was an ignorant jerkoff who couldn't prevent a fight if he was told it was coming. Another case I got kicked in a class, but an adult who was a friend of the family saw it. He was a teacher visiting the school, and when he told the guy he didn't say or do anything. we must realize these problems start with ignorance and end with the truth, something that will not happen as long as teachers play the role of ignorant fools and try to sweep it under the carpet. My pardon to the many good teachers out there who do care and do their best to provide children with a good education, this was not addressed to you.
Don't call my crazy, that's what they called me back in the home!
Whatever happened to kids developing their own sense of self? Most of the kids I teach have such scripted lives. School, then Soccer (or Baseball, or football, or all of them), then homework, then.......Its crap. These kids are KIDS. Having 6th graders stay up till 11:30am doing homework is not right.
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It's either on the beat or off the beat, it's that easy.
I moderate therefore I rule!
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Everyone who's watched Ferris Buller's Day Off knows that schools have kept attendance records on internet accessible computers since the 80's at least!
The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
I don't have kids right now... too young, but my wife and I will someday, so we take this crap seriously. I can easily say that this method will cause many more problems than it will solve. Or perhaps I should say, if it is used on the average kid it will. If your kids suck, and spend all their waking hours trying to find ways of doing stupid crap then this might be an intermediate step before prison, or on familial side, before military school... hehehe, its not that bad. However, like with all things in the world, this is a decision of the parent, NOT any governmental, corporate, or special intereste group to mandate.
As for rights of kids, well I take the approach of historical analysis. Notice how in the past, that kids got married at 16 and had a 3 kid family by 19 or 20? Knights, depending on the era and region, could have received their rights to arms at 16, meaning they were not only able to fight, but were leaders of men, not just footsoldiers or conscriptions. Hell, they often became great commanders by 17 or 18. Now do you think they had that stupid rebellion streak in them, hell yeah! But they grew up in tough times and were instilled with honor and respect (both ways those streets run, mind you).
Therefore, I personally think that by adding REAL responsibilities to these kids empty lives, you will see really good results. Treating them like criminals, or subjects of a tyranny, see: China, with UK, USA and especially Australia coming up fast, will most likely result in criminal behavior. Perhaps I just saw too many shallow pathetic loosers in high school, while the quite outcast 'kids' were out fighting fires, saving lives and such. Now look at all the social butterflies (includes the 'Anti...' folks), they are now the adult version of their childhood, automaton drones with little true value to their lives. Oh well, too ranty, gotta stop now.
Conclusion: Parents - you are responsible for your kids, but remember what the road to hell is paved with, don't be like so many foolish Americans that become enamoured with processes and forget about testing results. Children: next time you have a choice on whether to do something stupid or not, remember that your choice will tell the world how mature and stable you are, and you gotta live with the consequences later... suck it up. Hehehe, I say send them kids to boot camp and meet the cheery caring Marine Drill instructers, "welcome to hell, pukes"
I seek not only to follow in the footsteps of the men of old, I seek the things they sought.
Regardless of what you think of monitering technology it will do no good to thos students who would most benifit from more stringent supervision. In order for this to be effective the parrents must be willing to both use the system to get information on their children's (mis)behavior and then must be willing to do something about it.
Many of the problems schools face stem for a lack of parental involvment in there childs education (and life in general). I applaud this system for making it easyer for involved parents to get this information easier but it will not slove any problems and in my opinion is not worth the cost. Imagine the senrio where parrent X calls up and says "My Son/Daughter wasn't in class this morning. It's your fault. Go find him/her" You may think this is silly but a teacher in my old High School was sued when a student in his class was hit by a truck while ditching class. (The lost but...)
One of the root problems which must be solved if public educatiuon is to improve is parential involvment in there childs education. To the extent that this system will facilitate that i aplaud it, but any parrent who can't figure out that there child is ammassing a stockpile of wepons with the intent to shoot up the school won't even be looking at ther childs ice cream addiction.
Strive to make your client happy, not necessarly give them what they ask for
Comment removed based on user account deletion
There's more to parenting than punishing kids every time they make a mistake. You have to teach them why some actions are right and some are wrong. And you have to trust that they'll be able to find their own way through the gray areas. Lead by example.
it's the basic role of a parent to persuade, convince, or force them...
On the contrary, you should encourage kids to make their own decisions. Just make sure they know the consequences of their actions. We're talking about high schoolers here--if you try to clamp down on them, they'll just rebel.
The sooner the kids learn to protect themselves from a surveillance society... If you want your children to be protected from a 'surveillance society' how about trying to keep said society from being implemented in the first place?
HIRE ME, I'll do it for $1 million. For $2 million, I'll even hire a designer so it looks nice.
And I thought that the days of overblown and overpriced web hype was over.
Somewhere in the middle, that is the answer.
WTH?? Do you honestly think that the webcams in daycare centers are to keep an eye on their kids? Heck no! It's to keep an eye on how your kids are treated by the babysitters!! There are way too many people in that career who haven't a clue how to properly treat other people's kids!
I worked as a classifieds ad taker at a small newspaper a few years ago, and this one daycare owner came in, with about 8 kids in tow, to place a daycare ad, while screaming and yelling at these kids to shut up! Sometimes there are cases of neglect or even hitting - I sure as heck wanna know what's happening to my kids!
I do think that parents have a right to know what their kids are up to - but I also think that constant monitoring is a huge sign of a lack of trust, and probably other problems (although, there are some kids who'd merit such monitoring...) ...I even know of parents who read their kids' diaries... >:-(
Children are children. As a parent I have the right and responsibility to know what they are doing and where they are at any time I want to until they are of legal age. In small town America parents used to depend on the community to know what their children were doing. If I want to use technology to know where my children are then that is my perogative. Just because many parents do not care of pay attention to what their children are doing doesnt make it wrong for those who do care.
This, frankly, is completely untrue. Middle teenagers are in all ways biologically mature. Every previous culture has instituted it's "you're an adult now" ceremony at around the age of 13 or so.
We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
Kids need guidance. Kids need rules. Kids need discipline. Kids need responsibility. Most of all kids need opportunities. They need to be able show that they can be responsible. They need for us to trust them. Programs like this one show that we don't.
I agree with you, but what's sort of scary is that by changing the last sentence to something like, programs like this let kids prove their responsibility, and although it contradicts the argument it could be used by the company that makes this to market it in just the other direction.
As a father of three children I think that this is a great idea! However if I was still in school it be a hole deffrent story.
Once again, the Simpsons' has already covered this:
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Episode==BABF03
Apu: Well, sure we have but the decision to have a child is not to be made lightly. [Manjula does that "blowing-onto-the-stomach" routine with Maggie] On the other hand, monkey see, monkey do.
Homer: [chuckles] Kids are the best, Apu. You can teach them to hate the things you hate. And they practically raise themselves, what with the internet and all.
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Krispy Cream is people
Somebody point the creators of this system to the subdermal GPS implants. Time's a wastin'. We need Utopia. NOW!
there is no good reason for a school system to be spending this kind of funding on such a worthless product, especially with other school in the nation crumbling to pieces using 15 year old textbooks.
that said, i'm wondering what this system will actually accomplish. yes, a high schooler is going to skip classes. so what? the majority of you did it in high school, you probably did it twice as much in college. if attendance issues become a major problem, most school districts are more than happy to continually call the parents houses/workplaces until the issue is resolved. the advancement of technology is not the answer to problems at school, the advancement of classes and materials is the only way students are not going to be compelled to want to leave.
yes, it is a database of public information, just like most states prison records. the question is, is there a reason to have this type on information available online? is this going to encourage parents to join the PTA? come to more school activities? i highly doubt it. i see the overprotective/law-paranoid parents cracking down harder on their children who probably don't have the same views, causing a plethora of more problems in those households. why are all these parents in such a tizzy to run online and check the stats anyway? oh wait, lack of effort == parental enthusiasm.
looking through most of the 'insightful' postings below, i noticed the phrase 'teenagers are not adults' come up a few times. well, here's the thing, they're not, but there's no reason to treat them like such. personal sidenote, my parents let me skip classes as much as i want. all they cared about were the grades i'd bring home four times a year, and i knew better than to let a system like this fuck up. it was/is my life, and i don't regret the choices i made in my academic career. i did the detention time for what i'd skipped, yet still managed to keep my GPS above a 3.2 at all times. so parents, let them make decisions for themselves, they're the ones who usually pay the price in life. i can't believe the amount of parents whos problem extend from an idiotic vicarious relationship with their child. get a grip parents, they're your children, not your peons.
your jesus is another mans xebu. chew on that hypocrites.
No more kids cutting class -- Of course, there are a lot more brains to clean up, but hey make an omelette, break a few eggs, right?
If it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features yet.
Of course I won't have to worry about this because my kid is home-schooled. I always know where he is.
The Angry Armadillo
I have one thing to say FUCK OFF I avoided getting a mobile phone so my position cannot be triangulated, I'm gonna let my parents strap some fucking tracker on me? GET REAL! *after 10 minutes* Oh darn mother, it seems I accidentally hit this little piece of shit with a hammer against a brick wall. What a pity. I'm glad my parents respect my privacy, I want the right to be able to say things, and do things without being tracked everywhere I go, talk about big brother is watching *literally* As another guy said one step closer to having chips implanted in our asses at birth, for your own good of course.
The assumption is that parents will use this information responsibly. I wonder if this can be used to make the school liable for instances where parents don't use it responsibly? Say an abusive parent: "You missed PE again? What's wrong with you? What kind of nancy-boy are you?". Or can the parents use it to make the school liable for the school's performance? Concerned parent: "Look, according to your database, Johnny attended all his classes and turned in all his homework. How come he can't read?" (didn't get admitted to Yale...etc.) How involved do schools *really* want to be?
Years ago when I was in high school, my parents used a radical technique to track my whereabouts and educational progress. Get this, they used to ask me!
Holy Shit!
IMHO, parents and schools have every right to do this. I wish Slashdot would stop spreading FUD about how "students rights are being taken away" and triggering a flood of flame mail into some poor school administrators Inbox. To tell you the truth, students didn't have these "rights" in the first place.
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Friends don't let friends use multiple inheritance.
The slashdot 2 minute between postings limit: /.'ers since Spring 2001.
Pissing off hyper caffeineated
1q2w3e4r5t6y7u8i9o0pqawsedrftgthyjukilo;p'azsxdcf
Oh, I see: "We are doing this because we Care about you." Translation: Let us scare the shit out of you so you are so full of fear you can't function and are therefore under our control 24/7. Then we will feel that we have done a good job as a parent.
Parents might do well to note that the danger is not that Other kids will watch Mighty Morphin Power Rangers and kung-fu someone to death on the playground, but that their own kid will snap under the oppressive and anxiety-ridden lifestyle they have chosen for them, grab the gun from under Dad's bed, and start shooting up the school, thereby dealing with the insane pressure in the way his peers taught him.
For a quick example of how someone can lose touch with reality and his own sense of self-worth, here is one of those poor souls. The poor guy has lost touch with himself, and feels that there is no where to turn. How many of our children are lost like that? And how is monitoring their life day after day going to help them become the strong adults we hope to raise?
Insanity heaped upon insanity, that's what it is...
SDMI: Finally! Music that won't rip or burn! Brought to you by the fine folks at RIAA.
Not all kids would just accept this and go on as normal. Look what happens if you back a perfectly nice animal into a corner. There is a very good chance that it will become frightened and agressive. Granted, the analogy isn't perfect but it will work.
I know that if this was implemented when I was in high school (3 years ago) I would have not gone along with it without one hell of a fight. This system would have turned me into a trouble maker instead of a easy going student. There are bounds as to how much control can be had on minors. It is true that they aren't adults yet, but that doesn't mean that they can't think for themselves or that they need to be watched 24/7.
A much better system would be if a student did not show up for school one day, send a letter to the students parents at work where it could not be intercepted by the student, and then let the parent / student work it out.
"I have a porkchop, you have a porkchop. I have a veal, you have a veal".
To begin with, I'm 16 years old. By definition I am biased, and my comment shall speak from only one point of view. However I tried to put it down well.
To me, such enforcement of parental control over their children clearly defies all wisdom that has ever been collected while bringing up children. It all comes to trust.
Trust is a vital aspect in any kind of a relationship. It persumes a certain degree of independence, yet it also provides a degree of security. And old saying states that "where there's no trust, there's no love". However, it is also true that where there's no love there's no trust.
It also disturbs me that many parents try to shape their children the way they would like themselves to be. Indeed, I dare not imagine how many Mozarts, Turings, Tolkiens or Hilberts are being born each year, of which just few get to do what they're good at.
Another issue is horizon of knowledge. I believe that there should not be any single book that is forbidden to the youth. I've already heard (not being a citizen of the US) that the American authorities deprecate a wide range of books (e.g. "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn"). I am Jewish; yet I find a higher wisdom in the fact that my parents allow me to read Erich von Manstein's "Lost Victories", since I'm interested in WWII history. I fail to understand why the youth is considered basically unable to distinguish good and bad, right and wrong. It is this treatment that diminishes its ability to do so.
The traits which development I consider most important are creativity, originality, freshness of perception, good judgement, love of the fair. Many of these are virtues of freedom. They are impossible to achieve by keeping children in a cage - even if the cage is gilded.
The last point I'd like to make is regarding freedom. The Convention on the Rights of the Child speaks of this clearly: Articles 12 to 19 speak about the children's rights, specifically the right to information and Article 16 specifically forbids "arbitrary or unlawful interference with his or her privacy, family, home or correspondence". I will only mention such issues as curfews or various sorts of giving-in organizations which sponsor unlawful deprivation of rights which is combined with ghestapo tactics. I think that such policies may laugh a totalitarian country to scorn. What do you think?
Ok, so say a teen wants to find some information on something important, but embarasssing, or something they don't want their parents to know about... say teen pregnancy, breast and testicular cancers, etc. Parents are going to be watching at school, so you can't look it up there, the same obviously goes for at home. Libraries are going to block it becuase it has to do with sex. What other avenues are there? I think we have sucessfully fucked ourselves over in trying to protect our children....
High schoolers are NOT children, they are adolescents. Turning teenagers into children is a 20th century phenomenon which is an utter failure.
Adolescents need to be LED, not controlled. Micro-management does not accomplish anything, besides creating immature, dependent adults. Leadership encourages responsibility and self-worth.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
We may think now (or not) but decades ago we all where a bunch of mindless cells. It is part of our growing learn the concepts of right and wrong, and somebody must teach us that: our parents, mainly
So, be under control of someone isn't bad, it is necessary, at least in the first years of life. Today people have much less time to take care of its children, I think is perfect to use the technology that took our time to gain some.
It is just a matter of being carefull about abusing the power, but I'm no father yet, so I don't give a &%$#@@. Maybe in 5-10 years...
- Please, ignore everything written above.
After reading the article the first thought I had was that this will probably not last very long as planned mainly due to the hassle factor. Can you imagine as a bus driver having to scan every kid every day and then having to deal with the inevitable bugs, exceptions, and screwups that occur? What if a kid has to take a different bus home to study with a friend? There's bound to be problems with the software/hardware/database that the teachers and principals are going to get tired of dealing with. I bet within a year the checks will be reduced to just during homeroom, and maybe after lunch. The irony is that only the schools in the nicest areas (and with the least problems with truancy and violence) are going to be the ones to get these systems, while schools in rough areas where it might actually be beneficial will never get them.
As for installing webcams throughout schools, just wait until the first 40 year old stalker gets caught using them to monitor his favorite school girl.
Easy...go there. Ask the teachers. Volunteer to help out when feasible. Make time for your kids and their friends. Personally, I couldn't give you an idea what my daughters do during a normal day at school, but my wife who volunteers can tell me all about their freinds, who whacked out on drugs, etc...
Bottom line, just because the Internet is conveinient doesn't mean it's a substitute for decent parenting...
B
Flamebait
Serious inquiries only.
The only three major differences with this system are that it circumvents the "forging your parents' signatures" problem, it adds food, and it lets parents check all kinds of intermediate grades. The first is only an issue if you were cheating the system, anway. The second one I'm a little mixed on. However, it's generally accepted that parents should have an active role in making sure their children eat a healthy diet. As for the last one, I know that I, as a student, wouldn't have minded having access to that. I was always too disorganized to keep track of what grades I got and such. Graded papers went into my backpack and didn't come out again until I dumped everything out. Besides, the parents are getting to see the final grades, anyway. You might as well let them see the rationale behind that grade. It'd certainly help in circumstances where you've got one or two early bad grades that brought your average down, followed by a number of good grades indicating improvement.
Now that I've gotten that out of my system, I can reply calmly. =)
You make a very good point, in that the kid's eating habits at school were certainly not good. I think, however, that we don't know enough about the case. This goes for me as well, actually. We don't know if the parents talked with the kid first before having the school start regulating his diet. My knee-jerk reaction was that they didn't, that they just up and took no input from the student at all, but only because the article didn't say a thing about them talking with him first.
Regarding the quality of food served at the school, I'll have to take your word for it. =) We brown-bagged it in middle school, and in high school the cafeteria actually seemed to have slightly healthier than average food. Which wasn't to say it was entirely palatable. =)
So, mea culpa, I shouldn't have assumed that the parents didn't talk to the kid first. Be better if we could find out one way or another. Does anyone out there have more details about this system?
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Chief Technician, Helpdesk at the End of the World
"I am an Adept of Tantric VAX."
I like to think that I'd be a halfway decent father. I know what mistakes my parents made (and I admit to being lucky: there weren't many) and I know that the important thing about raising a child is to teach them how to be an independant, emancipated human being. If kids in general didn't freak me out so much, I could be a damn good parent, I think.
(Caution: Ranting ahead. Not that you'll really care! =)
Reading this article made me so glad I'm out of school, and made me realize just how fscked up some people are. For a variety of reasons, I may never have children, but reading this article made the prospects of raising a child in this culture bleak and depressing.
There's no other explaination. These parents, these administrators and teachers... they missed something seriously vital in this whole thing. I mean, do they really think that their childhood and teenage years would have been better and more tolerable if their parents had implanted brainwave recorders in their heads, given them microcameras for eyes, and clipped radio-tracking tags to their ears?
Hell, no!
Your child is not an automaton! He or she is not a little version of yourself with no consciousness! They are not zombies who without constant supervision would just walk off a cliff (but some of them might very well do that if it was the only escape from this culture of control that is developing!)
Let's get serious here:
Hmm... you think, possibly, that, maybe, the parents should have asked their own kid if there was something bothering him?! Call it a hunch, call it FSCKING INTUITION, but maybe, just maybe, something was eating at their kid badly enough to screw with his appetite. Or perhaps that there was something going on in his biochemistry which was making him crave sweets -- you think maybe this could be the first stage of diabetes, you stupid ignorant baka parents?
Oh, no. Nope, never in a million years. So they start to remote-control their kid. That's all this system is. Remote control for little automatons.
Parents, get it out of your heads that your teenagers can't open up bottles for themselves. Sure, they seem messed up, but think about what it was like when you were going through middle school and high school. The teenage years are the years where kids are starting to wake up to the fact that they are independant human beings, and a lot start craving their emancipation. Trying to keep a tight leash on your kids will do one of two things:
If the first happens, you have failed miserably as a parent and your kid is destined to be a doormat for the rest of their life unless they can get up enough self-confidence to fight themselves and seek help and get their lives together. Or they kill themselves before they get out of school, and you'll have nobody else to blem but yourself. (Though you'll try to. Oh, how you'll blame everyone else but yourselves! Your cries will ring out into the night and on till past dawn and drown out the funeral bells, but in the end, deep down inside, you stupid baka, you know it's your fault for pushing them and being clueless the whole while.) You certainly can't help them, that much is obvious.
If the second, you have just served to make your kid one of those wonderful disgruntled, disaffected few who get so much media attention these days, and they will revel in every second of discomfort they put you through before they finally kill themselves or run away, piling curses upon your name as they go.
Ultimately, we are responsible for our own actions. Each of us has it within ourselves to be an emancipated, independant human being, and this capability requires of us responsibility for our own actions. But make no mistake: until our children emancipate themselves from us, we are responsible for them. We must raise them and teach them what it means to be independant. It is up to us to tell them:
"You are not numbers! You are free persons!"
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Chief Technician, Helpdesk at the End of the World
"I am an Adept of Tantric VAX."
I would think that parenting should involve raising your children so that by the time they are legal adults, they have already been acting adults long before. If young people are treated like children right up to their 18th birthday, the learning curve of "adulthood" that is forced on them must be incredible.
Your reality is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. - Baron Munchausen
OK, I can understand a (micromanager)parent getting a little put out with their kid for ODing on ice cream, but *fruit juice*?!? WTF?
Maybe part of the reason this surveillance is so wildly popular is that parents think it may help prevent further school shooting-type situations, as they figure an added degree of control would catch potential 'snappers'. But, really, doesn't it just feed the paranoia that can lead to such an occurrence? Kid X, who feels like he's being watched and ostracized all the time, gets home from school and is greeted by his dad - "You had French Fries and 4 bottles of Pepsi for Lunch at 12:37:22 PM Today ! WHAT DID I TELL YOU ??" Somehow I don't think that will help.
I alternate between posting +5 and -1 Comments. Karma: +53 -47 = 6
Seems to me one could make an "illegal search" argument against this, since the government is doing it (or does that only apply to the Federal govt.?). Further, and on a related rant, anyone besides my paranoid brain wonder if someone higher up than the schmucky TV execs had a hand in the creation of the "reality TV" shows, which also serve to introduce/reinforce the concept of 24/7 surveillance into popular culture?
Eloi are stupid, throw morlocks at them!
I have mild autism and was bullied quite a bit when I was in school. I was afraid to leave the teachers sight and most teachers ignored me when I was bullied on a regular basis. I know most slashdotters here are geeks and can sympathize.
:-)
A system such as this one, would be great for people like me. Its not a problem if the kids are staying out of trouble. I would rather have this form of accountability then to have super strict rules thanks to extreme paranoia from Columbine and rediculous lawsuits from over-protective parents.
Alot of superintendents know they can't control the children, so they make ridiculous and harsh rules and pay for things like security camera's to justify their inability of control to parents.
This is especially true with school districts in rich and conservative suburbs, where alot of parents are control freaks and have really expectations. MY school district was one of these. My High School was already putting security camera's in my high school during senior year. The hope was that the school district could have less harsh rules as a result since a few punks would ruin everyone's time. Here is an exapmle of how one legal threat by a parent who was a lawyer changed my schools tardiness system. My high school was huge and in the new tardiness system we had only 2 mins to run from class to class to avoid tardiness. More then 3 tardies a semester and you were shipped out to an alternative center were no talking was allowed. 5 times and you were expelled!
Why this? Because some kids were goofing off in the bathrooms and were smoking when a parent who happened to be a lawyer walked in. Now we all had to suffer so the principal could keep his job.
With security camera's someone could come in and punish the bad kids and meanwhile make things nicer for the rest of us who follow rules. It would help school districts avoid lawsuits because in court the principals have video tape evidence that they were doing there jobs, and they can show parents that they can babbysit, oops I mean monitor their childrens safety.
Not to mention we can avoid bullying and avoid another columbine like attack by a pissed of kid.
http://saveie6.com/
This sort of shit is only necessary in a world where parents have spent the previous however-many years of their child's life ignoring them 99.98% of the time and teaching them that the last thing in the world they should do is communicate honestly with their parents.
You need more control over your kids? Try having a bit of LOVE for them, dumbshit!
I'd rather remove society, if society is that which removes the right to freedom and privacy. Maybe the constitution isn't doing its job?
--
A new development following the tracking of kids. Now we can implant a chip in the back of your child's head that lets our computers drive them around by remote controll. Plus if they get out of range they automatically just sit down untill they are again brought in range.
Never have to worry about them getting in trouble again. Because the software in our computers that controlls your child never acts bad, or improperly.. they will get good grades in school because they have access to all the answers in the databases of the comptuers that drive them.
God bless America.. Forget free and brave, we are civilised. (civilsed n : controlled, not necessarily self control)
==>Lazn
After all if parents can find kids slopping of behind the bike sheds, the kids should be able to find their parents slopping off down the local pub for an extended liquid lunch.
Phil
--
www.scorbett.ca
"Computer,"
(quick, high-pitched "dee-dee-doo"
"Locate the position of child 9 of 7."
(softly speaking woman's voice) "9 of 7 is currently in corridor 2, deck 6."
"Set up a level 5 force field on corridor 3 until 9 of 7 is done with his homework."
"Level 5 foce field has been set up on corridor 3."
Seems like a natural extension to me of the webcams in institutional babysitting places so parents can watch their kids -- of course, what does that say about schools?
I disagree. There are reasons I would want to watch my baby: make sure he is generally doing alright, make sure that he is not constantly crying (for whatever reason) and the sitters can't stop him, and to make sure that the sitters are not abusing him in some way. Babies are not self reliant; they need constant attention.
OTOH, older kids don't need the constant attention. They should be able to take care of themselves (at least for the school day). I would hope that I have been a good parent and educated my child enough to know the difference between right and wrong. If I am successful my child should not require constant supervision to make sure that they are not going to get in trouble.
Children are adults when they are capable of taking responsibility for their decisions. This largely occurs around the age of 5. Eventually children must make their decisions without parental control and suppervision, and imo the easiest (best) way to do this is by letting the child do this in a fairly safe way.
Some people disagree, in that case, let them have the school track their own children.
I'm 17 right now, and basically my father has told me that he considers me an adult, with all the responsibilities that come with it. He'll finance my education, but it's up to me to make mature decisions about what to do with my life. He's been like this all through high school, and guess what...I've never gotten drunk, done drugs, or had sex (despite numerous opportunities). I think that treating a kid like a mature adult makes them a mature adult. Just my 2 cents.
No, I don't believe they do. I just saw the documentary in WETA "The Lost Children of Rockdale". Parents don't know what is going on, and if they get to know and learn, they don't know, how they could have done something against it. There is real denial, real helpless reactions and, if going through the experience to be confronted with the consequences of how much damage kids are being allowed to do to themselves, real despair.
There are so many reasons for what IS happening that it can't be discussed just on this example.
It is the saddest thing that in order for the parents to be able to beat the system and get back some kind of knowledge and possibly guidance and control back into their hands, they have to rely on software. That's just one more bitter irony of what technology has brought us in progress with regards to our communication skills with each other.
I think there is a big difference between small children ( age 5 ) and school age kids. I would be the first to say that babies NEED constant supervision and control. But as they get older you should be "lengthening the leash" so to speak, giving them more and more freedom so that they can learn to handle making decisions on their own, even when *gasp* no one is watching them.
Basically I think trying to draw a correlation between webcams in daycare (watching babies) and tracking a teenager's every move is quite a bit of a stretch.
This is a Bad Thing. Next your boss or government will be using this to keep tabs on YOU.
It's 10 p.m. do you know where your employees are?
Think how educational it would be if kids could check up on what their parents are doing all day! Boy, the adults would really be ducking those cameras.
Electronic surveillance in daycare is bad, too. It may make some parents feel better, but it only works in one direction, and the babies are being deprived of the kind of interaction and sensory stimulation they would get if their parents were actually with them.
... on getting out of there alive. Now go forth and don't f*ck up the world. And keep a copy of your remarks to read when you become a parent, and again when you become the parent of a teenager.
I grew up in a small rural community, and every bit of mischief I got into would be reported to my parents via numerous gossip-related channels.
It's about time that these spoiled city kids start suffering the way I had to suffer.
It's not about the student's rights. It's about what this kind of system does to the student. As many other posters have noted, close monitoring to stop a problem doesn't fix the problem, it only creates a new one: the student doesn't learn how to be responsible.
I know this may seem rather idealistic, but if parents and their children had a good, trusting relationship, there would be no need for the parents to even think about checking this information.
Parents can see how students are doing with homework by looking at report cards. If the student has good grades, then he either did the homework or it wasn't worth doing and there was no loss. Attendence is the same way. When I was in high school, I could go to my mom or dad and explain that I needed the day off and they would allow it because they trusted that I was doing fine.
All of this monitoring breaks down trust and causes more problems.
Supposedly the teachers are supposed to keep an eye on students and report their behavior to their parents... (what do you think all those parent-teacher conferences were for?) In effect all we have here are videocameras doing some of the work. Where a teacher with 30+ students per hour can only remember a few, these will remember all of the students...
Even better if such things as theft, vandalism, or worse occur there will be video evidence of the events.
Certainly we must be careful when we give up our priveleges (and being unmonitored is certainly a privelege) that we don't give up to much. We must also though give the tools necessary to maintain order in a school as well.
Homework assignments: Do they really expect teachers to spend the time to type in whether each individual student turned in any given assignment? Don't they have anything better to do?
I don't know if you realize this or not, but currently, most teachers do their record keeping/grades on a computer. Assuming that the software they use on the website supports the software they use for keeping track of grades, updating would simply be uploading a file or two every night.
Fortunately, I went through high school long ago, and was able to read and think what I wanted. Even if my parent didn't approve of it.
If your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd murder you in your sleep
Lets make sure the teachers, faculty, staff, and administrators are being "watched", so we can be sure that they are doing THEIR jobs. Lets hold them accountable for being on time, prepared, focused, etc. Lets just have everyone that comes into or goes out of the school take a mandatory drup and alcohol test entering the school then let them walk through a metal detector. Then when you leave have your bags searched to make sure you have not stolen anything.
See how much they like that .
"children have no right to expect privacy from their parents"
I think that statement is a little dated. Legally yes, the parent is responsible for the actions of the child therefore the child has only those rights which the parent chooses to give him/her.
Morally however I think we're approaching a point where the technology is available but shouldn't necessarily be used. Parents have to ask themselves whether knowing what Johnny had for lunch is a good thing.
Children, particularly teens need a certain amount of privacy in order to develop a sense of identity, violating that privacy constantly is IMO a very easy way to produce a poorly-adjusted adult.
This is a bowel disruptor, and you are just full of shit. - Spider Jerusalem
This is a absolutely *HORRIBLE* idea. All this will do is condition people to used to 24/7/365 monitoring of their actions by The Government. Is that what we want? To say to our kids, "Screw what you say, we don't trust you at all, even in a controlled environment. Now let the doctor put the chip in your ass so we can see what you do all the time."
All this does is remove MORE responsibility. Children (to a point) SHOULD be given responsibility. Otherwise, how will they learn it? This is simply a invasion of privacy, put under the guise of "Help" and "Protection".
BTW, all of those who just think it'll make a parent's job easier are not looking towards what it could be used for. Besides, how come the majority of people today are not complete Rocket-Toting Crazy Bastards? In past generations, we didn't have this. Society isn't the hell the proponents of this make it out to be. This is very much anti-privacy BS. Damn, I hope this gets smacked down.
dingo2000
--------------------------------
--------------------------------
This space reserved for valid arguements, not pointless ramblings.
Back at school we thought it would be cool to set up a webcam in a lounge at our dorm. It's still there, at webcam.mit.edu. But it became instantly less cool when the parents found out about it and used it to keep an eye on their kids away at school. "Damn, hide those bottles -- my parents might be watching"
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my disk????
"chools across the country are adopting computer programs that allow parents to check the Internet daily to see whether their kids skipped class, handed in their homework and even what they had for lunch."
Oh yeah, heaven forbid someone actually knows if their kid(s) is(are) doing the basics like going to school, doing their homework and using that money they gave them in the morning for lunch. What is this world coming to? Next they won't be able to go outside with thier friends till AFTER their homework is done, or in the worst case being fussed at for smoking. I mean, if kids wanna skip PE and smoke a cig down the street, what business is it of the parents. The kids obviously can take care of themselves, since they don't have to pay bills, make morgage payments, buy groceries, pay car insurance, or anything like that.
Get real, idiot.
Burn Hollywood Burn
"I am a firm follower of evolution and Darwinism. (Go listen to a few George Carlin albums.) People do stupid things. It's a function of evolution that people who do stupid things DIE so their stupid genes don't spread around the pool and irritate the rest of us."
The idea of anyone declaring himself a "follower of evolution and Darwinism" strikes me as exactly as ludicrous as the idea of someone declaring himself a "follower" of the law of gravitation.
I have a feeling that the process of evolution will get along just fine without your faithful service, my friend. Not that I think that you're serving anything, but merely employing social Darwinism as a weak excuse to justify your being an asshole where "people who do stupid things" are concerned.
hyacinthus.
Murphy's Law of Copiers
I love the smell of Karma in the morning
ha, your funny
I am a sophmore in High School.
I have a proposition..
If the school board votes this programs use,
I will demand the right to use it to monitor them at there place of business, after all, they are doing the same to me.
They already put video cameras in.
I hate it, I feel like I am being watched continually!
'I think the more we can control our kids, the better off in the long run they'll be.'
/troll
troll
That's right, the more we control them, the more they will lose creativity and free thought. Just means more boy bands, right?
My dirty uncle will be spending all of his time looking at the 'Girls Locker Room' Section of the school instead of calling me asking me for whiskey money!
For parents to know the footsteps of their children, their spending habits at lunch, what classes they went to, the grades on their homework, if they turned it in, all live, is insane. Some schools are experimenting with webcams in the classroom. Aren't there federal wiretap laws in existance for a reason? We can track every movement about children without their knowing what is being monitored is not a good thing. What if there were webcams put into the teacher lounges and offices? The principal's office? See just how fast they'd all get removed. If it's going to be anywhere, it is going to be EVERYWHERE in my opinion.
On the bright side, this might have the potential of reducing classroom agression. In high school, there was a second-time freshman who made a lot of my time in that class hell, because I was smarter then he was. I think he got a referral for attacking someone else one time, but when he would randomly walk up and club me in the back of the head with blunt objects, that would have been seen and stopped also.
Censorship and monitoring go hand in hand. In this situation, the potential loss of freedom at an age when that amount should begin to increase, far outweighs the benefits of increased security for the students.
I, for one, would not send a child of mine to any school where they were being recorded, presumably for anyone else's family to check up on, no matter what the government tried to get me to do.
How are our children ever supposed to learn responsibility and how to make the right decision if they are controlled like inmates. If you don't give them respect and trust, they won't know what it is to be respected or trusted, and will relay that leter in life.
These people worry about thier children being criminals, but if they treat them like criminals from the get go, isn't it likly thats exactly what they'll turn out to be?
They say it is for the childrens own good, but I think it is more likly that it is a desprite need for control in thier life that they otherwise can't have. The people who seem to oppose this plan seem to be the ones who are in control of thier own life.
Wouldn't it make more sense to teach the children how to take control of thier own life, and make good judgements then to take that control, and the need to make good judgements completly away through the use of survaliance? I guess maybe, thats where the problem lies. The parents who ar ebehind this plan would rather not have to work a raising a child, and teaching them good judgment skills. They would rather just have instant control and breed little orwellian citizenry.
I wonder if these same parents would opt for a plan to allow thier children to be programmed (literally) like a machine on what is right and wrong, good and bad, or would they be opposed to that because it 'would take away thier individuality and personality.'
I believe that this is a critical time in the history of mankind, in more ways then one. A decision like this isn't just about watching our children, its a very important moral decision on where control should be placed. Should a person be allowed to be in control of themselves, or should authority be allowed to take control for you.
Right now some don't see this as a big deal, but let me give you a hypithetical situation.
Our parents put cameras in our streets, in our stores, and in our workplaces. We grow up with the idea that being watched is part of daily life, and we put cameras in schools to protect our children. Those children growup and become parents and but chips in thier children so they can protect them better. This continues ad infinitum, all the while personal freedom shrinks up untill it blows away. This is happening as we speak, It has been happening for at least 50 years and will continue to happen as long as we allow it.
I personally will never allow this to happen to my children and will bust my tail to make sure they never let it happen to thier children.
RA7
-
"Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds" - RWE
Well sorta... celphones do let the people in power track where you are... and with the right equipment, you can narrow it down to a few inches. And for those of you that think you are safe with a pager... guess again. How many "kids" have a cell phone... or pager?
What will the consequences be? IMO, even more dumbed down adults who will be even LESS equipped to deal with stressful situations and to survive on their own than now.
Do we want to condition CHILDREN to expect to be tracked and monitored 24/7? Will this create adults who will think this sort of thing is "ok and normal" and go along with the Government tracking EVERYONE in this way?
This is freaking scary stuff! All the more scary because it's SCHOOLS who are doing this. Schools that are run by GOVERNMNET. Aren't there some serious Constitutional issues here?
=== The price of freedom is eternal vigilance
I suppose this takes the place of the good old-fashioned methods which involved showing up at PTA meetings, making oneself known to the kid's teachers, and occasionally putting pen to paper (or picking up the phone) to say "How's Junior doing?" By that method it's not a question of snooping (however much the child may think so). It's a question of a set of parents and a school forming an alliance with a common interest: The benefit, guidance, and oversight of a child.
I may be the only one, but I can pick out some common threads here with yesterday's story about the standardized tests. It's as though we are now building a sort of Kid-o-Matic. Parents don't want to guide. Schools don't want to educate. Let's just choose a few pieces of expensive software, put our hands over our ears, close our eyes, and in a few years the kids will grow up and go away. If they don't turn out real well it won't matter because they won't be our responsibility any more.
Sorry,
Annie
(Who is aware that this does an injustice to every caring parent and conscientious educator who reads it.)
DUCT TAPE: The Election Supervisors' Secret Weapon
This is not a privacy issue, as children have no right to expect privacy from their parents.
Well...it's not a privacy issue until someone hacks the web server and makes the private information available to anyone who wants it. Or maybe the smart nerdy kids that always gets bullied decides that he wants to get a little revenge on the bullies. Maybe he hacks the server and posts the bullies information for all the students to see. Or maybe he just changes some of the information to make the bully look worse than he really is, with nobody (but the bully) being the wiser. There are certainly some interesting prospects for abuse here. Especially considering that many script kiddies are high school students...
As a Taxpayer I think the schools should put up all the data as a whole, sans the identify of the students. Then I as a taxpayer can hold the school board more accountable.
As a taxpayer I don't want my tax money lining the pockets of some clever programmer who wrote some spyware and marketed and sold it to gullible schools and parents in the name of "good parenting." Good parents won't need this software. The article quoted a pricetag of some $20 million dollars for this program. I'd rather they spent the money on some teachers that actually care about helping students learn or on creating tougher educational standards. As a taxpayer, I don't want to see my money wasted, and we should hold school boards and state legislatures responsible for this kind of horseshit.
I could call the school tie up some mid level educrat every day and find out all this information.
If you would/are doing that, then you have far worse problems than figuring out what little Johnnie is doing.
Seriously though, the problem with American society today is that everyone is a victim, everyone denies personal responsibility, the ex-president openly committed adultery, the porno business is our second largest industry (beaten only by our arms industry), religion and duty have been totally forgotten and our main passtime these days is watching TV which pours out an endless stream of filth like having an open sewer in your living room.
Me and my wife decided to get out of the USA while we still could. Fortunately I have dual British/US citizenship so it was very easy for me to simply pack up and go. And I must say that looking back at events since I left (Columbine, rodney king, Clinton, etc) I am glad I left that country. It is not the America of my parent's day. It has become a hell-hole of extreme wealth vs extreme poverty, racism run riot, uncontrolled litigation, and virtually no freedom whatsoever.
For me it was emigrate or join the militias. I think I made the right decision. Today, I get free healthcare, there are no guns on the streets and me and my children can sleep safely at night without any of the paranoia that an alert US citizen must feel.
I would urge any of you out there with dual nationality to leave the USA while you still can !
You can complain and protest all you like, eventually you will be tagged and released and tracked like a mountain goat. Whether it be through something overt like a chip in your ear or something more insidious like your always-attached cellphone or your credit card activity, you can and will be tracked. What are you going to do? Remove yourself from society?
Dancin Santa
Actually, I do believe that you have the right to complain all you like. It's that your complaining is going to have no effect one way or the other.
Dancin Santa
Will kids be brought up to think that having an authority figure constantly monitoring them is ok?
Do kids have privacy rights or not?
How long before Skyward or some other business, sells the information parents receive through this program? Kids habits and tastes are valuable to marketers, and plenty of schools eagerly seek out corporate funding. Will Skyward sell the information to businesses, or will schools cut out the middle-man and sell it themselves?
How many third parties will get a hold of the information when they aren't supposed to?
Can information collected on state property (schools) be held from the Government, if they demand access?
Big Brother (and everybody else) is watching you!
# root is the greed of all evil #
It's ok for adults to sleep around with anyone they want, skip work even when they're not sick, and cheat in their work, but we want to monitor children 24/7 so they can't do the same? Does that make any sense?
AAAAAAAGGGHHHHH!!!! I am still in high school, and it is getting worse. Luckily for me, I live in a community that the majority feel that poeple must have the freedom to decide what they wish to do with there life, and the majority of the adults feel that they should give advice and direction, but not control. (My parents are geniuses at making me go threw a guilt trip, but it is still my choice) The school system does not seem to reflect this though, and some of the poeple feel that the school doesn't have too, which leaves me a tiny bit scared.
But look at all the extra baggage that comes along with it:
Okay, let's take a look at this:Attendance: check.
Grades: check
Homework assignments: Do they really expect teachers to spend the time to type in whether each individual student turned in any given assignment? Don't they have anything better to do?
What foods have been charged to their child's lunch money account: I guess I don't need to go into how totally ineffective this is likely to be, or the inherent problems with using a charge (likely debit) account for lunch purchases.
Think about this: Who's going to make sure that the database really stays accurate? Okay, it'll mostly just be annoying if some kid tries to buy a pizza lunch and the system incorrectly comes up with a "PIZZA DENIED" error message. I worry more about the grades and attendance figures. Elsewhere in the article, they mention that the information is updated "continually". For attendance, that presumably means every day. If somebody keys in an absence for the wrong student, it's much more likely to get through the system than in the old "call the parent up" system. Similarly, for grades: I think that people will naturally make more mistakes if they're constantly updating each student's grades. It's not unknown for a few grades to get reported incorrectly on quarterly report cards, but I expect that weekly updates are going to have many more accuracy issues.
And then there's the security angle:
Translation:1. They use SSL encrypted traffic to the servers (which doesn't matter much since it's pretty unlikely that anyone is packet-sniffing the connection between the parents and the school). On the other hand, they don't say anything about security of the system itself. I will bet you anything that the physical security of the servers is a lot better at Amazon.com than at some random school.
2. The system is easy to compromise, but that doesn't matter, since teachers will be updating it on a regular basis. Okay, sounds great until J. Random Script Kiddie finds out how to run a script that automatically updates those attendance records during last-period computer class...
What I really don't like is the distance this puts between the student, their parents, and the schools. Seems counter to the stated goals, but think about this: instead of telling your kid to eat a healthier lunch, you punch a button and take the choice away from them. Instead of asking to see you children's homework (or heaven forbid, actually going over it with them), check the website.
Jsut what the world needs - a tool to make it easier for both overly-controlling and lazy parents to drive their kids nuts. parents
That doesn't particularly surprise me, but I would be surprised if the two packages worked together, unless they came from the same company. Of course, that's just "leverage" for the school to standardize on products from one company, right?
Parents have every right to know the activities of their children. This is not a privacy issue, as children have no right to expect privacy from their parents.
If the information is available to others, then there may be other issues.
In reality, the information available on this system should be made available to parents if they need it whether it is over the net or not. Making it easily accessible will simply make it easier for parents to become involved, to manipulate, and to encourage their children earlier than before.
To those people who don not believe that parents should actively "Control" their children, then they should rather debate "When are children no longer children?", or alternatively, "What is a parent?" This is where the issue becomes personal / individual. People mature at different rates, and parents are always confronted with the issues of whether their chil is old enough to be able to take responsibility for themselves. My philosopy is that parents should be able to influence their children in all matters until the child has moved out of home, basically the rule "While you live under my roof you are my child...".
Regardless, it is up to a parent to determine the involvement they want with their child, it is not up to the child to determine the involvement of their parents.
.. if only.
I think that teenagers as a rule need more independance, not less. We have to be able to screw up, to teach ourselves what is right and wrong occaisionally. Making us prisoners until our 18th birthday will only make us good prisoners. Is that what America wants from a generation of children?
I posted and all I got was this stupid sig
Christ, and I thought my highschool career sucked. Imagine being peered at by cameras all day, every day while you do all the stuff highschoolers do. Check out chicks, pass notes, scratch your whatsit... all on TV. Where Mum and Dad can see you. At will, in secret.
Can you say pressure?
Add to this the possibility of being suspended or even jailed for offhand comments about people you are pissed at. Even drawings for crap sakes. My average public school notebook cover would get me suspended for life these days.
My kid is going to private school, I don't care if it bankrupts me. This is friggin' madness.
What you said, kid. Damn.
I mean, just think about it. Here you are, 13 years old and you instantly know what a crock this idea is. I'm 45, I've been in some REAL crappy schools and I've seen a lot of dumb shit in my life, but this takes the cake. Murderers get more slack than this.
Just imagine what a dick the guy must be who thought this up, eh?
But don't sweat it. School ends eventually, even school run by dicks. And the best part is, you get to pick Mom and Dad's old folks home. Remind them of that if they stick you in one of these high tech fishbowls.
We must teach our children to obey the law!
Unless we introduce tracking software at an
early age, these kids might some day grow up to
be software pirates, privacy nuts who don't even
share consumer information, or worse yet, music
pirates! It's better that they know (and are OK with) big brother's constant surveillance from an early age...
What would you rather have: slashdot readers or aol subscribers??
To say that this allows parent to make up for all the parental responsibilities we gave up to hollywood, television, and other mass media. Parents, and soon-to-be parents need to wake up to the fact that having a direct link to your childs educational system looks to be a blessing, but in reality your child will only succeed if you give them more than a television with MTV and the newest B.Spears CD is grossly oversimplifying the problem. Even the best intentioned traditional family is in a losing battle against the media and peers.
Install this software on an NT system. It'll have more open ports than a crack whore has STDs. Then I'll hack it (between reboots).
Kids should be free! All software that tracks stuff must be eliminated! Resistence is futile...
Sorry about that, I really need sleep.
Blame baby monitors. Once parents start with one of these they have trouble not constantly monitoring their children
This whole system is extremely impersonal. If you want to know what your kids eat, try talking to them, giving them a little love. Want to know if your kids are skipping? Ask their teachers. The whole database thing with your secretly knowing everything that happens to your kids is extremely scary to me, an 18 year old high school student. I would treat my parents COMPLETELY different if they stopped asking me how my day was, etc in place of looking on the internet to see what I'm eating and what classes I'm skipping. The whole system seems way too impersonal, and I believe it would lead to worse relationships between kids and their parents.
Many school districts are using SASI like systems to maintain a huge database on attendance, discipline problems, medical info, and grades.
Now parents can log in and find out exactly what homework assignments are missing for a child in high school.
We initially thought this was a great idea until we get a little busy and don't grade tests for a couple of days.
No kidding, I get calls the same afternoon that I give a test from parents bitching about the fact that the web page has not been updated with the latest scores...
Now teachers seem to give less tests with more multiple choice questions and easy to grade problems. Whether this is a good thing depends on your point of view....
Luckily I just finished my senior year in high school. Personally I think parents should have more involvement in a childs life... not more control when they reach these last few years of legal childhood. One other side note; every year I was at high school, it felt more and more like, well prison. No outside windows, guards patrolling the halls, drug sniffing dogs, etc. The school recieves high marks academiclly and yet has no problems to speak of.
In addition, within a year students will know their way around the system. In high school, I realized that I could change the attendance without anyone knowing very easily (not by cracking).
Quoting from the article: ``I think the more we can control our kids, the better off in the long run they'll be.''
I agree that with the kids that may have bad influence on them or even have serious health risks(everything from bodily harm to unwanted pregnancies to motor vehicle accidents all done under peer pressure), there are parents out there that would make the kids life miserable.
The idea is to have a relationship with your kids based on trust, understanding, and friendship, not by controlling them or doing all you can to keep trakc of their every move.
How would those parents feel if they were in their position, even right now? "Youre invading my privacy!"
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Having 50 karma is an itchy feeling; I know I'll get
Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
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Having 50 karma is an itchy feeling; I know I'll get
Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
A diet too high in fruit isn't good for you either. It's too sugary, and causes your blood sugar and insulin levels to yo-yo. Foods with a high glycemic index (GI) have been shown to cause belly-fat accumulation and pre-diabetic symptoms in rats, and you can't get much higher in GI than simple sugars like fructose.
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Having 50 karma is an itchy feeling; I know I'll get
Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
Let mom and dad watch little Johnny at nap time while he's still so cute. Once he's old enough to pack his own backpack for school though, leave the cameras out of the classroom.
-Coach-
Perhaps the world's greatest tragedy is that ignorance is not impotence.
I don't think it should be characterized as a natural extension of the systems found in daycares. In a daycare setting, the parents typically only have access to the rooms in which their children are located, and common areas. Also, these are PRIVATE facilities, and the video systems there aren't used for surviellance, they are mostly used for contact. It lets the parents feel involved when they can't be. Putting a system like this into publicly funded institutions is different. It should be used for security purposes, not so that every parent in the district can call in and ask why little Billy is sitting at the back of the classroom, etc. Allowing public access to a video system in a public school is a major distraction from what the school is "supposed" to be doing, teaching.
Where's my lobbyist? Right here.
Now all these lousy parents can see how wonderfully their little darlings behave... I hope they have audio as well...
TODO: Something witty here...
We always find new ways to control what our children is doing or watching. I think that we need to raise them in a way that we do not need to do this.
Children also have their identity and we need to help them to recognize it, and preserve it. Who are they going to be if we don't teach them how to live without a cop always nearby?
We need to raise citizens that know what are the rules, and that the rules exist so they can live in society in peace. Police is good, not bad. Watching camera is for their security, not for watch what they are watching.
C'mon... we need to think better what we do with our children. They are not grown ups yet, we still can teach them that the world can be (and should be) a better place.
Don't worry, I'm to worry [to}every]day
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I know life isn't fair, but why can't it ever be un-fair in MY favor!?
It's not as if they implanted a chip into the kid to track his every move. They only give parents access to information I think they should have access too, namely attendance and grades.
:-) The sooner the kids learn to protect themselves from a surveillance society...
However, it seems they went a little too far in applying this new technology. The lunch thing set of a couple of alarm bells with me. Shouldn't they explain to the kid:"hey, don't do this" instead of just reaching out their hi-tech arm forbidding him? Of course, Goofyboy is correct: he could just get another kid to buy it for him.
At least in encourages creativity in kids. Perhaps soon kids will use RSA encryption to protect their secret notes from the teacher.
xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
You're supposed to be the parents of your children, not their overlord. They are individuals, who you shouldn't be trying to mold in your own image. If you want them to do what you tell them, try being nice to them. Try giving them freedom and letting them make their own decisions from the day they're born. Which would you rather, a kid who grudgingly acknowledges your requests and does things "because my parents are forcing me" or a kid with enough sense to stand up and show you that you're wrong. The fact that people are steeped in the idea that a 12 year old kid is a mindless idiot who has no idea about the consequences of their actions frightens me.
I guess the good news is that the hacker types will tear these system into little pieces because the teachers and administration will have no idea what they're doing.
"Parents will start using the V-Chip as soon as their children show them how." -Craig Kilborn, the Daily Show
What rise in teen violence? it's been falling for years.
Reboot macht Frei.
It is the teen's job to rebel against this. And do everything to thwart a system like this.
If nothing else this will teach kids good computer skills as they try to hack the school's computer for something else than changing grades.
And I for one look forward to having kids, just so I can PING them all day long...
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Once: you're a philosopher. Twice: a pervert.
Remember, kids, they can only track you if they can find you. Now, this is called the bash shell...
And it would lessen the amount of crap that DOES go on, as well as make the parents all the more responsible.
The parents of the bullies just might know what the hell their kids are doing now!
There IS an upside to this.
I'm all for making technology available that will make a person's life easier and more convenient. This software doesn't really let a parent do anything they couldn't do before, it just makes it a great deal easier for a parent to interface with their child's school.
Of course, like any other technology, this system is open to abuse. It helps to increase the degrees to which a parent can exercise control over their children, perhaps to a damaging degree. In the US it's really up to parents how they want to raise their kids, and if they want to be overbearing and overcontrolling then it's perfectly alright for them to have kids who go to an out of state university, fail out because they've never dealt had freedom before, and live the rest of their lives dreading holidays with their parents. I don't see technology really have impact on parenting, good or bad.
I would like to point out that when I was in school, we were assigned to read 1984. Why would we be asked to read such a paranoid polemic against human surveillance? Because there is good reason to fear the consequences of a freedomless environment. People need to feel as though they are free to do as they will within reason, and creatures of all sorts wither and become antisocial under constant observation. How could one of these schools assign that reading to these kids with a straight face? This will lead to MORE school violence, MORE insecure people, and less quality of life. It is good to have your parents pay attention to you. It is not good to have your parents watching you at all times through one-way glass. No good can come of this.
Amen, brother. I had similar treatment by authoritarian figures. People who are for this 'solution' apparently do not understand how it feels.
This assumes that parents on average are actually more mature than their teenage children - which, from my purely anecdotal viewpoint, is one hell of a stretch. Better at *faking* it, perhaps. But actually more mature? Wishful thinking, I suspect. Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
I agree that security is an issue now more than ever, but this program sacrifices the mental development of our nation's youth for adults' own piece of mind. That's sick.
Kids need guidance. Kids need rules. Kids need discipline. Kids need responsibility. Most of all kids need opportunities. They need to be able show that they can be responsible. They need for us to trust them. Programs like this one show that we don't.
You talk about this as if it is a good thing. As if there's nothing wrong with turning kids into complacent little cynics as early as possible.
Instead of acclimating kids to all the things that are wrong with the world, I believe we should make them into idealistic people who will be appalled (rightfully so) at "a world in which the cops are watching you drive, the convience store is taping you, and your boss is looking over your shoulder", and will change their world for the better, or at least dedicate their energy to trying to do so.
We have a choice in what values we instill into our kids. We can train them to be complacent parts in the machine. Or we can make them idealistic, intelligent, imaginative, forward-thinking social revolutionaries who will be aware of themselves and of the world around them, and who will work to change society for the better!
I'm no American, so I can't be sure, but how much money does the Information Processing Cooperative spend actively upgrading computer systems that can actually benefit students? I am not saying that this new tech is inherently bad, but it seems like just one more step down the already very slippery path towards a corporate-owned and run country by creating tame citizens in the earliest stages of their development. Accessing detention records is one thing, but who wants their parents knowing what they had for lunch? Isn't school supposed to be about having fun as well as learning? Or are the two now mutually exclusive?
A word can paint a thousand pictures
I have a few bones to pick with your arguments:
...but the fact is that certain kids demand constant monitoring...
Given the fact that parents are legally reponsible for making sure their kids are in school and not out getting into trouble (not to mention that this is also a basic part of good parenting), I'm not sure what the problem is here.
Parents may be legally responsible, but they should trust their teen just a little bit. If you can't trust your teen, they won't trust you. They will find other people that they can trust, whether those people are good or bad doesn't matter. Good parenting is ensuring that your child grows up to become a productive member of society. Watching your teen constantly will make them stray farther away from you, makeing your duty as a parent harder.
Also, what is to stop someone from breaking into the system and doing everything from changing lunch menus to grades to detention slips? Just once, we should trust teens and give them some freedom. Teens need freedom to become adults.
The only teens that need constant monitoring are ones in jail. Most will learn from thier mistakes and try another behavior. This is the process of becoming an adult. If we are treated like children, we will behave like children. If we are treated as adults, we will behave like adults.
You, yourself started thinking like an adult because of a drinking party. Maybe you should reconsider your viewpoint.You cannot control who your child will become, you can only advise them and form a mutual, trusting bond with them.
D/\ Gooberguy
Karma: Meh (Mostly from meh.)
So, dig this: suppose the time-frame of compulsory education has been hiked up for the purpose of keeping children off the job market longer, so as to not devalue labor and thereby devalue the labor system.
Suppose the compulsory educational system, which is economically (and therefore ideologically) linked to every other industry, is regearing to keep the middle class from further expanding and gaining power.
Suppose that, with all the psychological research that's been done, someone actually thought ahead and said, "Okay, if we can institutionalize middle-class children within the first 2 decades of their life, we'll be able to not only increase the size of the prison-industrial-military complex, but also to grab more power for ourselves and our friends overall" Just the same way some retailer once said, "Let's hire some of these behavioral psychologists to figure out how to organize the store in the most influential possible way[s]."
The net effect of our compulsory school system is obvious: 23% illiteracy in America, 13% prevalence of social phobia, Major depression (18.9%), generalized anxiety (14.8%), and the 'Suicide Rate Among U.S. Teens Keeps Increasing'.
And I nearly left out the continuous rise in teenage violence...
You see, the problem is, as Adam Yauch is quoted in the last link, that "Being on either end of a violent situation, whether you seem to have come out with the upper hand or whether you don't seem to, it doesn't resolve anything. It escalates the problem. Hatred leads to more hatred. Violence leads to more violence." Violence is not by any means limited to its overt outbreaks; it is a sadist/masochistic cycle which perpetuates itself. Our "educational" system suffers the Disney syndrome: the violence of management over the tenderness of interaction.
"Nature once had a chance to run riot in South Florida, producing jungles and swamps; now nature must submit to control. " And nature (which, yes children, is very much alive in each and every one of us) is pissed.
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Art Schools Dietzilla
There was a study published a few months ago indicating that no matter how much teens dislike supervision and say they dont need it, those same teens end up better overall (ie- less likely to use drugs, better grades, etc) if their parents maintained their supervision of hem as opposed to the parents who gave in. Moral: This is just another situation of parents wanting to supervise their teen's actions vs teens not wanting that supervision.
The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
Man, im 13 in 7th grade. I would not want this crap in my schools, I think having grades and teachers notes would be ok on a website, but all the crap they were saying, even lunch. DENTENTIONs, my god, i would be grounded for long time then, because my asshole PE teachers given me 7 dententions in 3 weeks, mostly for no reason, not pretisipating. Well, i probley gonna get off subject, so basically , this is a bad idea. Children shouldnt have complete restrictions and crap...... if my spelling/grammer bad, sorry,
A young person deserves all the rights to privacy that any other person has. Has anyone considered that perhaps the prisons that we force our children to spend their days in are in fact responsible for much of the "problem behaviour" that we're trying to protect them from by instituting such Orwellian invasions of their privacy?
David Schneider-Joseph
If they had that when I was in school, I can just see myself typing in everyone's user ID's and going to gayporn.com or oedipuscomplex.com with it.
I'm in year 11 in Mulbourne, Australia, just read 1984, and this scares my shitless, quite frankly. How long until this system is implemented here? And the system administrators are all completely incompetent. Hacking is rife among the students, and we have NO formal qualifications, against the "qualifications" of the sys admin. The parents of kids whow ould benifit from this kind of system would look anyway, so it is pointless in that respect. I think that some kind of test needs to be developed, and people who can pass that are legally adults. There are complete idiots over 18, who should have any of the rights, and people like me and my friends, who are well under 18, and would love these rights. The thing that worries me most is that this system is being applied to people who have done nothing wrong, who have no way to fight bak. Is the goernment trying to force my generation to accept monitoring? It's coming true, and only 17 years later than predicted. School teaches me little "real-world" knowledge. I wouldn't touch drugs, and I know all about safe drinking and sex. But, if my car broke down in a desert, I could die, as I can't change a fanbelt. Jump start, change a tyre. I don't know how to write a cheque, get a loan, open a bank account. As for this "won't somebody PLEASE think of the children!!" (whoa, flashbacks to Mrs. Lovejoy on the Simpsons), children from previous generations had much more freedom, and they aren't screwed up. I think that we will end up more screwed up because of this "save the children" mentality. Is the human race doomed? I think in all likelihood, yes.
----------------------------- Currently serving a 13 year sentence at juvenile "education" centre.