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Is Carpal Tunnel Syndrome A Hoax?
ZaMoose writes: "It seems as if all of the hoopla re: repetitive stress injury (RSI) in the high-tech sector might just be group hysteria. Canadian officials are quoted in the
following article as saying that many RSI cases have mysteriously 'gone away.'" Hard to deny that extended typing sessions can have painful after-effects, but at issue here is how serious (and permanent) those effects can be. I know plenty of painful typists complete with wrist guards and wincing who probably won't agree that their symptoms aren't genuine.
now we're going to have to listen to that guy who sued mattel for RSI whine and whine and whine
So, how old are you? For every RSI sufferer, there was one age at which he could say "Never been a problem for me" and another, later age at which the problem was very real. These things don't come in a day, you know.
My RSI started in my mid thirties, after about 15 years of steady, daily typing. After only 14 years of steady, daily typing, I could say "Never been a problem for me." Can't say that any more.
It's amazing to me how much people who have never experienced a particular problem can reach the conclusion that "the problem is somewhat hysterical." For decades they couldn't figure out what caused ulcers, so the conclusion was that it was the result of not handling stress well. Blame the victim! Now they've found a virus that causes it. So sorry for our total lack of compassion.
Shit. Getting medical info from Slashdot is even worse than getting computer news from the AMA.
Try using a ten-key all day long at work and then tell me that Carpal tunnel syndrome does not exist.
It is very painful and I have taken steps to prevent staining myself like insisting on more frequent breaks...something I've had to fight tooth and nail for. Most employers prefer to ingnore the reality and will probably love the concept of this article.
Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, the common name for the diagnosis of median nerve slowing in the carpal tunnel region of the wrist, is not a repetitive strain disorder. In the simplest terms, CTS is caused by intra-articular fluid pressure pinching the nerve, causing numbness, tingling and pain. Research by Patrick Radecki, M.D., on patients complaining of CTS symptoms evaluated clinically (n=2000+) has shown that work-related risk factors are not significantly significant compared to obesity, thyroid disease, physical shape of the wrist and family history/genetic predisposition towards CTS. He is frequently asked to testify by insurance companies to dispute claims of on-the-job injury with his research.
I regret that I have no links to share, as it does not appear that his research papers have been published on the internet. CTS is real - but generally classifying it as a work-related or repetitive strain disorder is inaccurate.
I was originally diagnosed with CTS about a year and a half ago. After numerous tests, (Nerve Conduction Studies, Bone Scans, Cat Scans, etc..) it was concluded that I actually did not have CTS, but a combination of tendonitis and cumulative trauma wear-and-tear arthritis (I forget what the medical term for the wear and tear arthritis is). After much physical therapy and reduced computer usage (ie, I used to work in the field and now I don't) the pain persists, even when I don't type for a very long time. I take anti-inflammatories and have a TENS unit to deal with the pain. I'm returning to college to pursue an entirely non-computer related field. RSI is most definitely real.
However, I noticed a snowball effect. When I was first diagnosed, I worked for one of the largest ISP's in the US. Shortly afterwards, people saw me on reduced work duties, an ergonomic setup, etc. The company was very good and all but promoted me to work with me on it. It seemed like before me, nobody around the place complained of wrist pain, etc. After the incident with me, it seemed like just about freakin everybody was complaining, comments like, "Oh, I'll be seeing the doctor next week!" "Oh yea, me too! Yay!" became abundant.. I think it's people's desire to be lazy that leads to results like the Canadian study. I eventually resigned from the ISP because I am in effect unable to work at any job where more than very small amounts of typing are required.
Oh yea, and god damn it! Playing golf even hurts now! !$@#%!.
Well, that explains a whole lot...
Can you run for hours on end every day without your legs getting cramped up and hurting painfullly? If so then you should be the world's endurance running champion!
Your wrists and fingers are controlled by muscles just the same as any other muscle in your body. You have to take breaks and stretch them to keep them healthy.
Repetitive use in a confined space of motion hurts a lot faster and a lot more than using a muscles full range of motion. Try riding a bike with the seat too low. Your legs will get tired very quickly. However raise the seat so that your legs get full extension on each revolution and your power increases and your legs don't get tired nearly as quickly.
Gee, here I thought it was caused by lack of oxygen, when a car full of cow-orkers all got stuck in traffic in the Holland Tunnel. Guess they should've taken the bridge, no?
I had a start of carpal tunnel about five years ago from working way too hard and relaxing only by playing a musical instrument that also contributed to the problem. I've slowed down, and the problems have cleared up. But it was real.
OTOH, this slashdot story is a hoax.
Only in one format: the $99 combination wireless keyboard and wireless mouse. I have it. It rox.
Hmm. I thought that was a little weird myself. If you somehow interface those prostetics/cybernetics to the nervous system well enough to type like he did, why not stick a USB port or a little wireless transmitter in your hand and skip the finger-splitting step altogether. Those fingers have to be murder to maintain, a simple direct connection seems faster and more efficent.
Then again, it did look cool.
Down that path lies madness. On the other hand, the road to hell is paved with melting snowballs.
I read the internet for the articles.
So according to your logic, because I've personally never heard voices that means schizophrenia doesn't exist? Wow, my discovery is going to save a lot of people a lot of hassles with all that dimentia and hallucinations they've been putting themselves through.
I've heard a lot of people say that typing "correctly" with your fingers on the home row and all that causes them a lot more pain than just typing any old way they feel like it. I personally touch-type but my hands go where they are comfortable and I rarely have any pains in my wrists. I also don't use the ergonomic keyboards. Have there ever been any real studies of the effect of "correct" typing on wrist strain?
For my money, the old Logitech MouseMan (the sort of wedge shape with the thumb crater) is the best mouse around. Too bad it's not made any longer...
> It's like they're subconciously looking for
> way out without having a concrete plan of what > they'd rather do, and this malaise gives them
> cause to quit.
I'm pretty sure it's the other way around. Because rsi has such an emotional impact you start to question the way you stand in life (including your work).
Francis
Stereotypes are an ingriddible part of America's culture.
(I think they have a subliminable effect on us Canucks)
;)
Actually, the rates of carpal tunnel in typists are really quite meagre. While they do occur, one is far more likely to develop carpal tunnel from some industrial activity.
Also, Lithuania is not so far behind the West that Industrial Engineering concerns should be so completely ignored. Such an attitude probably has more to do with lack of good sense than lack of relevance.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
It was very prevalent in the 80's but since people became aware of it and took precautions you might say it never existed unless you lived in the 80's and saw it in person. Not many slashdotters probably remember the 80's.
Of course Lithuania is not as rich as, say, Sweden, but I'm surprised to hear it classified as a development country.
Even more interesting is the fact that both JWZ and RMS are (or were) both huge Emacs hackers (ever hear of Lucid Emacs).
Now, I am a huge Emacs fan, but I have seen way too many Emacs users with serious RSI problems to think that this isn't more than coincidental. So next time you need to hit some obscure key chord to get emacs to do something cool remember to take it easy, and don't put your fingers in an uncomfortable position.
I've never met anyone who had RSI of any sort who wasn't under a whole lot of stress. I suspect that people who type a lot are more likely to manifest their stress as CTS than people who don't do much with their hands. Media exposure probably also increases the chance, as the article suggests.
Whether the physical damage is real or not is questionable. Stress could either be manifested as pain or as susceptability to damage, and it could vary among people.
All in all, I think RSI is better for you than heart disease or chronic fatigue or whatever people will get when they stop getting RSI.
Agreed. I used to do a lot of typing back many years ago on the Digital Equipment LK201 keyboard.
;)
This was the standard keyboard that came with VT340 terminals, DECstations, etc. Wow was it ever a bad keyboard, very mushy plus you had to press hard to register keys. So a days worth of typing was a lot of work.
My wrists were incredibly screwed up after about two years of that. About that time I got a new machine, switched keyboards, started doing wrist excercises, etc.
Now my pains have gone away.
Actually if I recall DEC was sued over that keyboard, but convinced the judge that the pains were imaginary.
It was after using such a keyboard for two weeks that I first began to experience symptoms of CTS. I love 'em too, but I can't use them.
--
-- Slashdot sucks.
It's the posture. The problem comes in when you have a hyper-extension of the wrist, which can be caused by a lot of different things. One especially common one is a seat that's too low. Another is people who slouch before their keyboards, placing their palms and wrists *below* the level of the enter key. Ever see a piano teacher? The wrists must be held straight.
The keyboard and mouse wrist rests *work* -- not because they pad the joint, but because they make it impossible to hyperextend your wrist.
--
-- Slashdot sucks.
All they have said is that for each person who actual has CTS there are 2 people who just think they have it. This stuff actualy hapens.
I remember once the condum broke and a few months latter my girlfriend started having what looked like morning sikness. She gained 20 pounds, mostly in the abdomen and brests.
This went on for over a month ontil We tried the home pregnancy test and it came up positive on 1 out of 3 attempts. We waited another cople of weeks before seeing a doctor. she reported that my girlfriend has never been pregnant before (can they actualy tell that much?). the sintums then vanished except for her bust being a size larger.
A more sevare case however was someone who lost around 100 LBs and was obviusly on the virge of death ontil he was told at the hospital that he did not have AIDS. He is now back to a comforteble 260 pounds.
These cases don't say anything about the AIDS epidemic or the propegation of our specie. It's just that not everyone with sintum has the same condition.
Add a little publicity and you have an epidemic.
BTW: 10% means that most offices would have a few people with RSI. The real ilness.
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
Quit while you are ahead is my policy on this. Next time the belly might stick around :)
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
RSI may be another case of Ritalin and ADHD hysteria. My grandmother had it and for her it was bad. Hardly surprising when you consider that she was a 70 year old woman trying to chisle out the staples holding the curtains to the chicken house windows.
What she had was a very inflamed carpul tunnel that had to have the pressure releived. They tried first with anti-inflam medicines, but in the end she had to go under the knife.
My on the other hand have been diagnosed with carpul and RSI, but all I was doing was bike riding. Yes I know that some handle bars are prone to cause RSI and carpul, but I didn't buy that type. I got a second opinion and I was put on Ibuprofen for a few weeks.
Funny, mine went away too. Guess it wasn't RSI after all.
Odds were it was a low-level sprain or strain that a brace and drugs helped
My two centi-cred
Phoenix
-- Wiccan Army, 13th Airborne Division "We will not fly silently into the night"
Others have already noted the biases of the interviewee and publisher, but what I want to point out is the disingenuous use of CTS.
Dr. Shorter is quite correct to note that "most [RSI sufferers] didn't have carpal tunnel syndrome", but a right bastard to then claim "hysteria" as the culprit.
I do not know Dr. Shorter, but I do know this - most RSI sufferers do not suffer from CTS, but plain old tendonitis or neuritis. Those of you complaining about elbow, shoulder, and wrist pain in the right arm due to mousing are probably (I am not a physician, this is not a medical opinion) suffering from ulnar neuritis (an inflamation of the sheath containing the ulnar nerve - this is the nerve that runs along the outside of your arm, terminating in the ring finger and pinky). This has nothing to do with CTS, other than also being a repetitive strain injury.
I do agree with the doctor that CTS as an injury is far less common than is commonly believed, and that most people who think they have CTS probably have something else. I don't belive they are hysterical.
And I think the recent moves against OSHA standards for preventing RSI are driven more by the meatpacking industry wishing to continue to do business as usual (working low-wage meat cutters until they're crippled, then discarding them) than by the white-collar sector, but that's a different rant entirely.
-Isaac
I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. For Entertainment Purposes Only.
Yeah, that's what one of my former coworkers, a native of Lithuania, thought too. This guy had survived the Red Army and was (is) one of the hardest workers I have ever met in my life.
Then one day, after two weeks of 16 hour/day hacking, his wrists froze up and his wife found him lying on the floor screaming in pain.
Good thing he had that other American excess, health insurance. 6 months of surgery and physical therapy and he can pretty much work 4-5 hours a day now.
It's a strange kind of malingering that strikes the people who are driven to work the most, hardest.
sPh
The article isn't saying these people don't feel pain and discomfort. They are just saying it is being misdiagnosed as RSI.
Now, I currently don't have an opinion as to whether it is real or not, but implying that people aren't experiencing pain doesn't seem to be the goal of the article
Vermifax
Vermifax
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Carpal Tunnel was definitely not a hoax for me. No way would I go under the knife just to get out of a few months of work. My carpal tunnel did not however develop from typing. Mine was from working with an air impact gun at a tire store, and developed in a very short period of time, about 3 months.
Thankfully, the corrective surgery for the problem ended up fixing me up good as new. I no longer have any numbness, or pain in my wrists or fingers. Since I was only about 23 years old when I had the surgery, my body was able to recover much more rapidly than most people having the surgery later in life.
Good luck to anyone who is unfortunate enough to have to live with this condition.
Linux user, and proud of it. M$, now the worlds greatest marketing organization... Too bad they aren't marketing a dec
Hmm - - BS...
I had an employee who had suffered from Carpal tunnel syndrome before he was an employee of mine. Sorta funny that he had to have surgery to get some relief??????
I think someone in Canada has been having more than an extra brewski....
Have you compiled your kernel today??
It seems they've proved that malingering is possible. I guess that means that the disease doesn't exist.
-- Truth goes out the door when rumor comes innuendo. -- Groucho Marx
>the sintums then vanished except for her bust >being a size larger.
Try it again!! Try it again!!
-Kevin
The wristwrest may be helping to cause some of your problems. The best typing position for your hands is not with your wrists resting on anything, but suspended over the keyboard.
The same goes for mousing around -- no wrist rest for that either. My RSI problems come more from the mouse than the keyboard, which is why I switched to the Kensington TurboMouse trackballs.
Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
I've thought the same thing. I will never trade my IBM Keyboard of Might for some wussie ergonomic POS. I've been hacking for upwards of 12 years, and I haven't had any major problems.
But on the other hand, I really don't type for long stretches. I'll write a function or two, then I'll compile, then I'll test. If it breaks, I'll have to sift through the debugging information. Then maybe I'll type another line or two to try to fix it. Not a whole lot of continuous typing is going on.
Basically, I would expect that this whole problem would be much more pronounced among typists, secretaries, admins, etc. who actually type for hours without stopping.
The enemies of Democracy are
Take the source for what it's worth. Isn't the newspaper source a decidedly conservative press with an axe to grind against the injured, as well as every other group it sees as a threat?
After all in this country, the US, we have an adminstration that makes pronouncements on the safe level of arsenic in the water not based on safety but on the cost to do it. And it threw out the Americans with Disabilities Act as it applies to municipal facilities solely on the cost to implement? So maybe it's the same thing here - politicized science that lobbyists trot out as truth?
Next thing you know they'll dicount mental illness because it's only in your mind.
Ten years ago, virtually no one had heard of ergonomics. Meanwhile, the number of people using computers all day at work, and often all night at home (with the rise of PCs and then the Internet), skyrockets.
... many doctors are uneducated and useless on RSI issues, many employers want employees to see company-recommended doctors who will dismiss the employee's symptoms so they won't be liable for disability claims or workplace accomodations, some doctors will try to force you to have inappropriate (but profitable) surgery or else accuse you of faking it, etc. The health care system is not necessarily an injured patient's friend.)
... if you tell me that all that was hysteria, you will soon have many decidedly nonpsychosomatic injuries to deal with.
This corresponds with a skyrocketing number of RSI cases a few years later.
Now, any self-respecting workplace gives some attention to ergonomic issues, often gives workplace training with education on the importance of taking breaks, setting up workstations appropriately, etc, and even relatively uninformed computer users are aware of the dangers and warning signs.
And gosh, whaddaya know, the number of RSI cases might be going down. (I say "might" because I see no numbers quoted in that article, and don't trust their quoted sources worth a damn.)
There is plenty of solid research backing up the validity of repetitive-strain-induced tendinitis and carpal tunnel syndrome. The fact that it's difficult to externally verify any given case, and might attract malingerers, does not refute this.
(Do not mistake reluctance to see a given doctor with evidence that the person is malingering
And yes, if you tell me to my face that the six months I spent in constant pain and unable to work or type, and the months I spent in physical therapy to fix the postural problems which were reducing bloodflow to my arms and increasing my proneness to injury, and the years of stretching and strengthening exercises to get my arms back to something close to healthy condition modulo occasional recurring pain and inability to resume some of my previous hobbies
Sheesh, I hate stereotypes.
:)
Stereotypes are the basis of a lot of humor. Phonetic spellings are welcome. I would never survive without spell checkers!
Feel free to lay those America sterotypes on me. I usually just get a chuckle out of them.
...is that the computer programming boom has fallen somewhat, so those who have only heard of HTML can no longer get work, so less people are doing less work at the computer causing less RSI?
Eeh? (Thrown in for the Canadians.)
I would like to say that RSI is definitely real, and that it definitely can be made better with heat treatments, better ergonomics, etc. Switching to an ergonomic keyboard has done wonders for my hands, but they still hurt every now and then. Hand massages seem to help, too.
"It's pychosomatic; you need a lombotomy; I'll get a saw."
As a software developer I can state unequivically that after several weeks of serious deadline programming, 16 hours a day, my wrists and hands were in absolute agony begging for mercy. Of course while the pain is absolutely real, it is entirely plausable that it was "hysteria" in that having heard of RSI and carpal tunnel syndrome, the pain did make me have visions of the end of my career : i.e. how do you program when you can barely move your fingers?
What's my point? The pain is absolutely real and it is idiotic for anyone to say that extended keyboard use can't cause damage to your tendons/muscles. However, it is possible that the hysteria is the fact that many "office workers" have a bit of a panic when they get these pains because they have heard about life long conditions and debilitating illnesses. I think it's ridiculous for the article to paint it as a bunch of whiners looking for compensation and legal settlements, instead of what it really is: A lot of people genuinely concerned about their long term career who, in the face of overwhelming media talking about RSI, worry about what it could do to them.
Consider the facts:
1) People tend to get them at the same time. This is probably because of some kind of "mass hysteria".
2) All of the people striken with colds have had their colds "go away".
If carpal tunnel is a hoax, then so is the common cold.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
That's the deal - a few genuine cases and a lot of suspicious wanna-be ones. Seems there was a big outbreak of monitor-radiation miscarriages many years ago as well.
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
So if the folks afflicted with carpel tunnel syndrome didn't get it from using their PCs at work, how did they get it? I suppose they got that numbness from the vibrations transmitted through the steering column on their way to and from work. Yah, that's it. Blame on poor roads and not the crappy furniture that corporations buy that (after how many years of people using PCs at work?) doesn't allow computer users to sit with a comfortable posture.
If these injuries are declining, one's gotta wonder if they've been disappearing since the use of trackballs became more widespread? I've been using one at home for several years and it seemed to help a great deal. (I still have to use a mouse at work on some systems and heavy use still is a problem.) The good thing about many RSIs, however, is that they do get better. My finger joints seemed to recover when I was on vacation and the most strenuous thing I did with my fingers was trip the shutter on my camera.
All in all, though, something about this report smells bad. As Deep Throat said: ``Follow the money.'' The article didn't mention just who funded the UofT study and I doubt the regents/board paid for it out of the goodness of their hearts. I know of too many people who have wrist, finger, and back problems that cannot be blamed on anything else but their heavy use of computers at work. Far too many people to attribute it to ``hysteria''. (What an insult that one was.) Companies that employ large numbers of computer users would certainly have an interest in seeing RSIs labeled as mass hysteria. American corporations were quite successful in killing off legislation that would have made workplaces more ergonomic. How many policies were cancelled in the past few months that would have benefitted either people or the environment because it was too expensive for corporations? (My eyes fill with tears just thinking about the horrendous expenses corporations would have to bear -- sniff) Surely some major insurance companies could've banded together to fund this study; they'd just love to claim that RSIs don't exist so they could avoid paying the medical bills of corporate employees.
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CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
While I agree with you that psychosomatic illnesses are just as real as physiological illnesses in that the suffering is no less acute, the notion the repetetive strain injuries are psychosomatic is, to put it bluntly, a crock of shit. I know several people who are suffering from this and, indeed, suffered a little from it myself before taking longer keyboard breaks and mixing up my duties enough to take myself away from the computer every so often.
Repetetive strain injuries are real and, if not taken seriously and treated properly, can become absolutely debilitating. Imagine not being able to grip a tennis ball or hold a pencil. I've seen people in that bad of shape, with swollen writsts, etc. and it was not in their heads. In one case I know for a fact that his physician agreed, pointedly ordering him away from the keyboard for several months.
This article (while not as extreme as the slashdot headline leads one to believe, nevertheless) reminds me of the idiots who were telling Gulf War who were dying from Mustard Gas exposure in Iraq (the ingredients of which were sold to the Iraqis by US companies, with US government approval, from 1985-1989) that their symptoms (passing blood, exhaustion, etc.) were psychosomatic, a result of stress.
It makes me seriously wonder if the author isn't a shill for insurance companies wanting to get out of covering the medical bills of tens of thousands of programmers now entering their thirties and beginning to reap the physical consiquences of those 80 hour weeks of repetetive typing. It certainly would not be the first time in our (very recent) history something like this has happened.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
And, as anywone familiar with repetetive stress injuries knows, if you treat it early on (and one aspect of treatment is to STOP THE REPETETIVE ACTIONS CAUSING THE INJURY) yes, the injury will heal itself. But, if it is not treated early, the injury can become very permanent. This should not be a surprise, many physical injuries share similar traits (treat it early and it heals, ignore it and the damage worsens, ultimately becoming irreversable(.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
[Business] Posted by CptBurrito on Monday, June 11, @04:20PM
from the mysterious-stories-from-ether dept.
TheSource writes: "It seems as if all of the hoopla re: economic forces in the background at Slashdot might not just be group hysteria. Andover.Net officials are quoted in the following article as saying that many Slashdot story sources have mysteriously 'gone away.'" Hard to deny that stories of dubious origin can have painful after-effects, but at issue here is how serious (and permanent) those effects can be. I know plenty of sickened readers complete with stomach pains and wincing who probably won't agree that their symptoms aren't genuine.
( Read More... | 28 of 115 comments )
Umm, aspirin has similar anti-inflammatory properties to ibuprofen (Advil). I believe that the painkiller in Aleve is also an anti-inflammatory.
Acetominaphine (Tylenol) is not a good anti-inflammatory, but it used for most pain relievers because of its perceived safety. I say perceived because acetominaphine does not have any warning signs (like aspirin's ringing in the ears) before fatal overdose, and a fatal overdose will flat out kill your liver. A dead liver is a recipe for a nasty, unpleasant death.
As for RSI being 'all in your head', I'm willing to believe it, though the article presents insufficient evidence. IMNSHO, that in no way diminishes the seriousness of the disease, or makes the pain less 'real' (since pain is a perception). It just suggests a different method of treatment. We, here in America have a strange disdain of suffering caused by some non-physical source.
Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
No, it's not the keyboard. The misbegotten microsoft keyboard doesn't work any better than any other keyboard (so far as I can tell.)
I'd argue that that the keyboard makes a huge difference, athough I'd agree that the Microsoft ergo doesn't help the real problem one bit.
I find that if I'm typing on the average "smooshy" feeling keyboard that's almost universal now days for even a couple hours, I start to feel wrist tension. However, I can use a keyboard with positive key action almost indefinately without special pads or keyboard trays or unnatural postures.
If you have problems with your wrists, I highly recommend the IBM "clickity" Model M keyboard which shipped with AT and PS/2 systems, if only because it can be found fairly easily at flea markets and thrift stores or ebay for only a couple bucks. To minimize mouse usage, I'm currently using a "TrackPoint II" model, which is standard Model M with the thinkpad nipple on it. Also, learn as many keyboard shortcuts as possible to keep your wrists in the same location.
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
It's probably worth noting that RSI's are not confined to "tech" industries either. My wife's father had surgery to both his wrists for carpal tunnel somewhere over a decade ago. His job? Stocker at a grocery store. I don't think he would have put himself through the pain of that surgery for a "hoax" either.
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
As someone who suffers from RSI, i can definately tell you that you are selling yourself short with Aspirin. Ibuprophin is a much better choice. Not only does it relieve pain, but it also reduces swelling, a major helper for carpel tunnel pain. As always consult a doctor, but i take 600mg twice a day, and you can take 600mg up to every 4 hours i believe without ill effects.
Tis better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open
Tis better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt --Abraham Lincoln
Carpal tunnel syndrome isn't a disease of the rich. In fact, it took some time before it was connected with keyboard use. The first instances of diagnosis were of manual laborers, especially farm workers and most particularly slaughterhouse employees. In the US, meat processing is pretty industrialized, and it takes mass numbers of minimum-wage employees chopping away at carcasses to produce the cuts of meat we enjoy in our supermarkets. The production increases have led to people banging a cleaver through meat against a cutting board five times a minute, for eight hours a day.
Now, granted, Lithuania may have problems just getting enough jobs for people, or building democracy, but don't imagine it's a class thing or limited to developed countries.
The cynic in me will agree that RSI did not become a "big" problem that people in the US cared about, until higher-paid office workers began to be diagnosed.
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lake effect weblog
lake effect weblog
{Network engineer in Chicago--looking for work!}
I'm a fan of the Kinesis contoured models, which put all the heavy use keys under your thumbs (Ctrl, Alt, Enter, Space, BS, Delete). Also all keys are programmable, so you can fix any quirk about it that you don't like (e.g. the Caps Lock next to the A can be made to do something useful).
The Maltrox (sp?) looks interesting too. Possibly better, though more expensive (and the Kinesis ain't cheap to begin with).
By the way, I've been a heavy keyboard user for decades now, and I didn't feel any ill effects for the first 10 years or so of typing. So you slash kiddies who're feeling smug because your fingers are never sore, remember that you're just getting started...
Computer Users Not at Higher Risk of Carpal Tunnel
... Because the syndrome is a common condition in the population -- one in 10 will develop symptoms -- some computer users will develop it, Stevens said."
"'We had expected to find a much higher incidence of carpal tunnel syndrome in the heavy computer users in our study because it is a commonly held belief that computer use causes carpal tunnel syndrome,' said J. Clarke Stevens, a neurologist at the prestigious clinic.... 'The findings are contrary to popular thought but nobody has studied the problem carefully,' Stevens said. 'I'd like computer users to know that prolonged use of a computer does not seem to lead to carpal tunnel.'
(Edward Shorter -- upon whom another poster cast aspersions, perhaps rightly, perhaps not -- is not mentioned in this story. Stevens, quoted above, is the researcher mentioned in the National Post article.)
Stupid job ads, weird spam, occasional insight at
Alcohol consumption and blowjobs are the obvious cure for RSI.
:)
I don't know about that, but in the movie Swordfish it helps you break encryption faster!
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
Couldn't agree with you more... about the keyboards.
First thing I did with my G4 was get a plastic cover for the mouse and a ADB->USB adapter so I could use my old keyboard.
When that died, I just got a nice full-size USB MacAlly keyboard.
Sure you probably couldn't do much about the desk, but the other things you certainly could have. Heck, get a Tensor(r) wrist bandage: worked wonders for me.
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
I suffered from RSI for a while, mainly in my right wrist (not being a touch typist, my typing "style" uses my right hand more than my left). It got so bad at one point, I couldn't hold my mouse. A wrist brace, heat treatments and anti-inflamatories helped, but six years later I still get a twinge when I've been typing too much.
I think the article contains its own answer to the question it raised: RSI has significantly declined in computer-related injuries mainly because of heightened awareness of ergonomics. I know in my own case, I can go a lot longer because my desk is the right height, my keyboard is at a comfortable height and angle, I chair is more comfortable and holds me at a better posture....
This whole debate reminds me of Y2K. Everyone perceived it as a huge fiasco in the making (which it was, in 1998), and dumped $millions into fixes, redesigns and contingency plans. Then, when the actual fallout was insignificant, rather than congratulating IT for averting a disaster, people asked "So what was the fuss all about? Why did we spend so much preparing for nothing?" Guess what, folks, if you didn't spend so much, it (probably) wouldn't have been "nothing".
So in response to a medical condition, let's increase awareness and knowledge about ergonomics, develop solutions, roll it out industry-wide, and perform audits check and maintain compliance. Then, when the condition declines, let's label the whole thing "hysteria".
Brilliant.
I ocasionly get numbness in my hands... usually it happens after I sleep on them for a few hours, but I'm sure it's because of the typing that I do.
/. users seem to think - rather that it is a valid personal injury that can occur. However, it is my opinion that you are responsable for ensuring that you are taking care of your own body. This may mean that you have to be responsable for your own RSI injuries. If you employer won't let you take a break from typing, go work elsewhere. I'm sure they will reconsider if they realize they will lose your skills.
I've been typing for nearly 15 years and I think my carps are suffering for that. However, there are a few things that __I__ accept as my personal responsability:
1. I chose this lifestyle. I may not have fully understood the risks, but that's my own fault.
2. It is not the fault of my employer (past, present, or future) for my career choices - if I were working in a factory, I'd wear safety shoes.
3. While I feel that my carps _are_ squished (which is what cts is), I don't seem to suffer pain from them.
Carporal(sp) Tunnels, btw, are nerve bundles that run up the arm to the hand. They are divided into two sections - half for your thumb and index finger side and half for the other side. These nerve bundels exist in a tunnel - the carporal(sp) tunnels. The positions that a lot of people take when typing - putting excess weight or pressure on the wrists - can cause the tunnels to collapse. When this happens, nerve signals are interruped from that section of the hand - causeing numbness in part (or whole) of the hand.
I do not believe it is a "made-up" illness - that some
That is all.
---
Computer Science: solving today's problems tomorrow.
Price, Quality, Time. Pick none. What, you thought you had a choice?
They should have classified it as permanent vs. temporary pain. RSI definitely does exist. WHen I type for a long time I do feel pain in my hand and it is real (my brain determines that reality at least). There might not be much physical evidence but the pain is pain.
That has got to be the most ignorant coment I have ever seen in my life. How can you even compare sitting in front of a desk to working on the ocean or on an oil derrick ? Severe cold, frostbite, explosions, isolation vs. eye strain !?! They don't even comapre.
As for myself, I never had Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, but I have developed nasty cases of tendonitis during long coding sessions. However, I've found that if I arrange my workspace in such a way that both of my elbows are resting on the desk when I type, I almost never have any problems.
Just because I've found a way to minimize chances for reducing future re-occurrances of my tendonitis doesn't mean I didn't have a real problem in the past...
--
Interesting... I have always credited the fact that my wrists have always felt fine with the fact that I am also a guitarist. I play a steel string acoustic in a loose fingerpicking style; to those who aren't guitarists, this translates to stiff strings that are manipulated individually with seperate fingers (no pick, no strumming... well, not what most non-guiatrists would term strumming).
I have my guitar hanging on the side of the rack holding all my workstation (and development server, MP3 server and A/V equipment). Every couple of hours, I click over to my songbook (maintained as a PDF from chordpro files), and play a few songs. You can generally tell how my coding is going by what I play.
I've always felt that the alternate hand positions (curled right wrist, tilted left wrist) and complex finger manipulations tends to balance out my typing position. I know that without a guitar, I can feel it when I've been typing all day (actually, heavy all-day mousing seems to hit my wrist harder. Perl can work in NT too, remember... that saved my wrists in the past).
Okay... the above has rambled damn well enough. I just slept through the afternoon, and it sure shows.
--
Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
I have had CT type symptoms in my right wrist after weeks of extended development time. The symptoms always go away with rest and change. I try to vary the angle my wrists are to the keyboard and mouse and stretch alot. Don't know if this supports the argument or not.
So is group hysteria, and Carpal Tunnel is probably the *least* common RSI.
If we had everyone actually coming down with carpal tunnel syndrome, then we'd have a lot of *extremely* unhappy people. The surger is harsh, I believe they do both wrists at once, and you lose the use of your hands during recovery, so you can't even wipe your own ass.
Ergonomics are as important as ever; I've had debilitating wrist pains from typing before. Granted, I never blamed them on my employer, or carpal tunnel syndrome. I blame myself, for a) not exercising enough and b) not bothering to watch my posture.
In the three years that I have been suffering from this pain (usually just a slight twinge in my wrist and the palm of my hand, but occasionally reaching up to my elbow or even to my shoulder) I have not had to undergo surgery, wear a brace, or even take any kind of pain killer or anti-inflamatory drug. What I have done is obtain a host of assistive ergonomic devices (wrist support pads for keyabord and mouse, and assorted 'ergonomic' keyboards and trackballs) and pay extra attention to the position of my arms and body while I'm working at the computer.
I've spent several hundred dollars on these accomodations (all of it my own money) and I've been able to reduce the pain from the arm numbing agony I was experiencing in 1999 to slight twinges in the hand and wrist. There may be folks for whom CT, and other RSI's, are real debilitating disorders, but not for me.
That said, I wouldn't be suprised to find lots of folk exagerating the seriousness of their problems in order to get some concession out of employers in tight labor markets. Similarly, I wouldn't be suprised to find that, with the loosening of the labor market, there has also been a reduction in CT/RSI claims: the sqeaky wheel quiets down when there's less grease to be had, if it knows what's good for it.
Yeah, I get that symptom too. I get it when I rest the corner of my elbows on the edge of the table and cut off my ulnar nerve. It's a freaky feeling, non?
Lowmag.net
What? Are you suggesting we don't judge a book by it's title?
Ever want to know what carpal tunnel feels like?
1. Locate a friend and an 8 pound sledge hammer
2. Place your wrist on an anvil (train tracks work nicely too).
3. Have your friend bring the sledge hammer up over his head, and swing downwards allowing your wrist to stop the motion of the hammer before it hits the anvil.
Over the next few days/months, you will experience the exact same feeling that people with carpal tunnel experience. Fun isn't it?
Need Free Juniper/NetScreen Support? JuniperForum
I also noticed that the mouse was my main source of discomfort, but I'm not a big fan of trackballs. I went to Best Buy and got a Caselogic jelly wrist rest mouse pad for just a few bucks. My pain is now history.
-B
A friend of mine got CTS from fishing. He does not even touch a computer or keyboard. So this is not just a computer user problem.
--
_|_
The above is not worth reading.
As a spouse of a CFS sufferer, I can tell you that it's quite real. I've seen her go from a nearly 4.0 undergrad (3.87 at graduation time) to bedridden without being able to concentrate on anything for more than 30 minutes at a time - in a span of 12 months. While I can agree that too many people hook onto the current 'fad' disease, there are also true sufferers.
"Software is the difference between hardware and reality"
But yeah, emacs people seem to get hit a lot. What's more, in a group of emacs people I know, the RSI diagnosis of choice turned out to be ulnar nerve compression---and we all got the diagnosis before we found out the details of the other people. "Ulnar nerve compression---that's funny, that's what my doctor was thinking...."
Back when RSI was new, I lived in an environment where a lot of people were coming down with mysterious wrist injuries.
The environment: RIT, where 25% of the students are deaf (lots of hand signing). The signing interpreters were coming down with it left and right. The odd part was that the deaf students weren't. In the end, they concluded that stress had as much to do with the initial injuries as the actual motions. A while after this incident they came up with the term RSI to deal with similar problems.
As to permanent: one of those affected interpreters was still struggling to lift a book 8 years later. The pain shooting up his wrists and arms was too much. A multi-million dollar lawsuit still couldn't give him back a peaceful life.
Let us live so that when we come to die, even the undertaker will be sorry -- Mark Twain
I just switched the mouse to the LEFT side and I've never had problems since. I was overusing my right arm.
It took about a week of cursing, but pretty soon everything worked out.
It's quite fascinating how the body learns and how it can adapt. At first my movements were like watching a 5-year-old play a video game - lots of concentration and emotion, but a pretty low score. Little by little my fine motor skills developed and the mouse cursor ended up where it was supposed to. Now I'm pretty much ambidextrous mouse-wise.
Another side effect is in FPS games, I use a left-handed mouse, and my right hand uses the cursor keys for movement. This is a little more intuitive for me.
You take it with food. Food first; buffered analgesic afterwards. That way it doesn't attack the stomach lining so quick. Best to avoid coffee with it too.
Simon
Coming soon - pyrogyra
COld at first to keep the swelling down, stop the bleeding whatnot. Once the healing process starts, gentle heat helps. Im not sure how this applies to RSI, since it keeps happening. When in doubt, use cold/ice. -sdvice from my high school football trainer.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
I've used Mice from other companies, but I prefer Microsoft. I like their keyboards (mostly, the first ergonomics were awfull; but I dislike all ergonomic keyboards since I don't touchtype).
Now if they could just get out of the OS business...
While they may help reduce pain, they do not do it by blocking the pain receptors. (either at the nerves, or in your head).
I have every reason to believe it is a combination of things, including stress which causes it. When people are stressed they tend to stiffen up their muscles, they tend not to relax them and I think this creates the environment for the problem to show up.
There is also the possibility it may in some cases be caused by another ilness, something similar to the flu and which simply agitates the system causing what would otherwise be ignored and quickly go away to get worse.
I had to quit playing Black & White because of it. I bet I could start playing it a few days from now (currently dehydrated a bit from a recent flu) and it wouldn't bother me much, if at all.
When I start feeling any symptoms I tend to change my posture, I change how I do tasks and, I event went so far as to remove my wristwatch. I happen to wear my watch on my right wrist, and I the same hand for the mouse. Sometimes this causes problems; and the watch restricts my movement.
Decent keyboards, realistic posture, and less stress (I expect I'll have the same job tomorrow I have today.. unlike 5 years ago... etc) are probably the main reason it has disapeared.
How do the last two books support your hypothsis at all. Book two is a history on the philanthropy work of the Kennedy Family in the field of Mental Retardation. The third one discusses bedside manners through the last 200 years. From the abstract it doesn't seem to be 1. focused on a disease, 2. bashing anyone. Looks like you've got two humanities and social science books. No bashing there.
The test for Carpal Tunnel is very simple and one that anybody with the syndrome should have done. Take a needle, stick it in your hand, wiggle it and measure how long it takes the pain to get to your arm pit. Run a current through one nerve and measure how long it takes the signal to travel to another part of your body. If it falls within the parameters you have CTS, if it doesn't, you don't.
I don't know what this doctor is talking about in the article but CTS is a proven measurable syndrome. There are at least three known possible cures for it, the first is wrist protection, the second is anti-inflamatory, and the third is surgery.
When they say "Ergonomics" will help, they are lying, most damage is done at night, which is why that is when you are supposed to where the braces.
The surgery is pretty much painless, except of course the three or so months of recovery your hand goes through.
As I tell my friends, I traded numbness for pain. All in all it was a fair trade.
Could it have gone away on its own? Probably. Would it have gotten worse? Probably.
Beware the wood elf!!!
but it got better. It must have been a hysterical illusion, along with the 220lb linebacker who hit me.
Doctors trained with a bias towards intervention tend underestimate the body's capability to heal. I read recently of a meta-analysis study that indicated this is behind the infamous "placebo effect" -- things just get better on their own. This makes total sense to me. Medically trained researchers so underestimate the body's own healing powers that they'd sooner attribute spontaneous recovery to an almost mystical force called the "placebo effect" than thinking of including simple rest and waiting as an experimental group.
In this case, the researcher is invoking "hysteria" in a similar vein. If somebody's keyboard induced RSI gets better, it must be some kind of insidious psychological phenomenon causing the person to report a non-existent condition. <sacrasm>That's certainly a more reasonable explanation than assuming the patient just got better without some kind of heroic action on the part of the doctor.</sarcasm>
One of the worst parenting experiences I've ever had was when my daughter's pediatrician wanted to perform an invasive test for a certain condition. I asked him (a) what the prevelance of the condition was in the population; (b) how the symptoms he saw affected this baseline probability and (c) what the statistical properties of the test were (false negatives and positives). He couldn't answer any of this. It was a hunch. I went along, against my instincts, because he browbeat me into it, even though he could not justify the test on objective grounds nor did he have the statistical information necessary to interpret the test (which in the event was negative as I expected).
The point of this story is that MDs (among which I have several personal friends) practice an art rather than a science. They have to go on what the prevailing standards of practice are and their own instincts much of the time, since they lack the scientific data to make an objective judgement (and in some cases lack the mathematical sophistication, which is somewhat less forgiveable).
The less than scientific nature of medical practice is what is responsible for fads in diagnosis, not defective personalities in the patients.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
*** Work like a king, command like a slave, create like a dog.
When I was at school (say about 17) I spent every break in the computer lab, and thought I was enjoying myself, but I wasn't really stretching myself - I was more in the habit of going and tinkering than actually getting on and doing something fun.
About this time I started getting pain in the back of my hands down over my fingers. I found it hard to hold a pen or type. It was painful, it was real. It wasn't happening 100% of the time - it came and went, but bouts could last all day.
Then one day, when my hands had been fine all morning, I went to the computer lab for break. At the exact instant I passed through the door of the lab, pain shot down the back of both hands. I stopped, stunned, looked down at my hands and said "You b*st*rds". For the pain to have happened at that point it could only be stress. The pain went and didn't come back until years later - at which point I realised I was stressed out and (while not typing less) took steps to organise myself and remove stress - hey presto the pain went away.
So it is painful. It is real. It can be crippling. And I am prepared to believe that for many people it's not psychological. But for me - and I'm sure many others - it is.
Peter.
(Now 29, very busy Software Engineer, RSI-free).
Interesting you should say that...If a thing like apotemnophilia (where people become convinced they'll be better off without hands or other bits) could be contagious even though `all in the head', why not a few cases of RSI?
My father was a workers compensation lawyer for the Australian government and worked on RSI cases. ;-)
In about 90 or so they got all the medical evidence together and they could say one thing for sure, RSI is not pathalogical, i.e. there is no test that you can do that can show some sort of specific cell damage that corroborates the condition. So the Australian government was able to throw out most of the RSI cases. My dad used to say that it was easy with medical experts on RSI. The were neatly divided into 2 categories, those who 'believed' in RSI and those who didn't, you picked your doctor and got your opinion. Unfortunately the judges also knew this...
But this does not mean it does not exist. It may be something mental. New Scientist a year or so back had a really interesting thing about how it might be a mental problem from rapid activation of certain areas of the brain.
Anyway, my wrists hurt and I should get back to coding
When you are actually typing you are right. The "piano" way of typing is the best way of typing. When using the mouse I always lay my wrist on the mousepad. My fingers move the mouse around. This helps relax my shoulders.
BUT, when you are not typing it is good to relax your hands onto one of those pads. They are warm, so they don't stiffen your wrists and they make sure that your wrists are not bended too much.
I relax a lot, because when you are able to type more then 300 chars/min then your hands are faster then your brain. I think that 10 finger typing helps too in the use/relax cycle.
PS: I had a severe wrist problem (permanently unfit for army duty), I used to play piano and I learned typing on _mechanical_ typewriters. I think I therefore know (by experience) what to/not to do.
nosig today
I'd like to see Dr. Shorter tell my wife that the pain is all in her head.
;-)
No, no, she's imagining that it's in her hands, not her head.
You'd have to surgically remove her hands from his throat.
Nope, won't help. Phantom Limb Syndrom (or Phantom Limb Phantom Pain Syndrom, in this case) would be a problem.
On the other hand, what struck me[...]
So, one hand is in pain, and she's hitting you with the other one?! Time for some serious mariage consuling, here.
The term is used as shorthand
Well, if she's already deformed, I guess she was prone to such injury. Hardly a valid sample demographic....
--
Aaron Sherman (ajs@ajs.com)
You can also change your diet; the modern Western diet is skewed towards promoting inflammation. I've changed my diet, and my tendonitis has gone down considerably. Typing less would eliminate the problem, but hey...
2 ,0 0.html
h tm l
http://www.drweil.com/database/display/0,1412,7
http://www.drweil.com/archiveqa/0,2283,1580,00.
I did not blame the modern Western diet for "all that ails me;" I said "the modern Western diet is skewed towards promoting inflammation."
You might want to lookup research done at the NIH on omega-3 to omega-6 EFA ratios, before firing off the old quackometer.
I had not seen the Dr. Weil vitamin episode; my dietary changes are a result of reading Dr. Weil's "Eating Well for Optimum Health" text, and reviewing the scientific evidence presented therein with external sources.
If you do dispute the casual relationship between the dietary change and corresponding reduction of tendonitis symptoms, what alternate explanation would you offer?
The tendonitis isn't gone; it's greatly reduced. In fact, I'm typing *more* now that the symptons have gone down.
:)
The reason why I switched to the new diet was that neither reducing the amount of typing nor physical therapy had helped in the past.
And no, I'm not about to change my diet back for the sake of scientific curiosity.
It's not that global warming doesn't exist, it's that it isn't a big problem, and that it *is* relative.
A letter to the editor in the Globe&Mail today brought up my favourite point - the Vikings were farming Greenland successfully in the Middle Ages. It obviously was a lot warmer then than it is now, and that is well before the industrial revolution.
Nevermind the dinosaurs who roamed Northern Alberta back when the climate was hot and humid.
I fucking hate environmentalists who don't research things in any more depth than is presented in the Greenpeace pamphlets. (Yes, if it gets warmer, diebacks will occur. In a word, deal.)
--
If a tree falls on an anonymous coward yelling 'first post' in the forest, does anybody hear?
Oh here are a few.
Before the election.
We will pull out our troops out of kosovo.
Soon after the election.
We will let the israelis and the palestenians settle their own disputes.
We will not bail out Turkey
We will back out of the Kyoto Treaties (global warming is not real).
Guess what the troops are staying in kosovo for a long time, turkey got something like 3 billion dollars, the US is now actively trying to broker a treaty in the occupied lands, and Bush is going to Europe to see if he can save face with the kyoto treaty.
Add to that the following whoppers.
We did not apologize to china
It's possible to drill for oil in alaska while preserving nature.
We will vigorously defend the roadless initiative.
Oh yea the arsenic thing was pretty funny too.
I guess none of that is as important as "I did not sleep with monica lewinsky" to the republicans but then again they were obsessed with the size, shape and whereabouts of Bill Clintons cock. I saw Ann Coulter describing Bill Clintons cock on Fox news or MSNBC or one of those other republican media outlets one time and I just about died laughing. She was talking about the shape of his cock and how Paula Jones was going to "kiss it". It was oddly pornographic yet hilarious at the same time.
I never understood why you guys became so obsessed with the whereabouts of Bill Clintons cock so much, I still don't.
War is necrophilia.
I, like most others, use "improper form" when typing. From what I remember of my typing class from hell in 7th grade, "proper form" consisted of raising the wrists/forearms above the level of the keyboard, so that you fingers pushed down from above, rather than "stretching" to the keys.
This does seem ideal, however, it is tiring - and we are all lazy here. It is tiring holding your arms up at that position. Building a wrist rest to that height wouldn't help matters any, because more pressure would be placed on the carpal region.
What if, instead of that, the keyboard was angled more sharply at the rear, so that the "pushing" of the keys came back and the "stretching" to the keys was lessoned - a wrist rest could still be used, but the stretching would be minimized - maybe that would help more?
Worldcom - Generation Duh!
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
I always ask myself, why did someone write an article (being an ex-journo myself).
Something like this was submitted either by
the university in question or an interested party.
The lack of any data to back up most of the claims, (canadian offices don't have RSI)
brings me to think it was the latter.
Interesting - and it makes sense. Turn it off, you measure the background/ambient radiation. Turn it on, and perhaps some sort of Deep Magic from EM fields around the monitor is deflecting stray betas (i.e. electrons) away from the detector.
(While I think RSI is a real, albeit preventable problem, the "radiation" scare from VDTs was hogwash, perpetrated by scaremongers who didn't know (or deliberately obscured, because they knew the public didn't know) the difference between ionizing and non-ionizing radiation.)
That it's highly probable that your tendonitis may have gotten better all by itself.
I chose the "tobacco cures the common cold" for a reason -- many people are of the opinion that taking antibiotics for a cold is a good way to cure it. If the cold is caused by a virus, as opposed to bacterial, antibiotics are useless. The overwhleming majority of colds are caused by viruses - they're self-limiting infections that go away after 7-10 days.
Joe Sixpack feels sick for 4-5 days, so he goes to the doctor and beg and screams for antibiotics. The doctor relents, prescribes, and wow, within three days of taking the antibiotics, Joe's feeling better. "Gee, those antibiotics really cleared up my cold! My doctor is the man!"
The fact is, there's a 90% chance that Joe would have been feeling better by days 7-8 with or without the antibiotics.
In your case, the pain of tendonitis may have caused you to favor the wrist (i.e. "It hurts when I do this." "Don't do that!") or do things that would otherwise alleviate your symptoms, with or without the dietary change.
Not to say that the Western diet is healthy, or that the diet change you made wasn't a Good Thing. Just to say that it probably didn't cure your tendonitis.
(I suppose you could eat a bunch of Big Macs for a week and see if it comes back... but even skeptical me wouldn't recommend that. Eating nothing but Big Macs for a week would make me yearn for tendonitis. :-)
Ditto here.
Most frequent problem: pain on the back of my right wrist caused by excessive mouse activity during marathon sessions (2-3 days of 6-12 hours) of real-time-strategy games, which require repetitive and accruate drag-and-drop operations.
Most effective solution: Stop when it starts to hurt. Duh. I lay off the games for a week. Pain goes away within 24 hours.
At the orkplace, my posture is atrocious - wrists resting on the desk in front of my non-ergo keyboard. Screen is dead-center at eye-level, 18 inches away from me. Seat is typically tilted backwards by about 5-10 degrees. Feet are resting on a footrest, as opposed to dangling in midair (OK, I do one thing right!). Elbows typically sit on chair arms. 8 hours a day, 10 years, no problems. Lighting? I'm a cave-dweller, yanking out fluorescents on sight. The 21" screen provides most of the light for my workspace. 1280x1024 and small fonts, woo-hoo! More stuff to read on each screenful of information. (OK, I do one other thing right - rather than reading screens in landscape mode, e.g. 80x24, I read in portrait, e.g. 80x80 strips. Eyes scan down the screen, not across. Feels like reading a book.)
Conclusion: RSI and other ergo problems are real. They are also entirely preventable.
What was important about my atrocious posture at work was that (for me), it's comfortable.
If it ceases to be comfortable, I change it or rejig my workspace until it is comfortable.
I'd also like to modify my conclusion somewhat. I'd originally written:
> Conclusion: RSI and other ergo problems are real. They are also entirely preventable.
I'd like to add one thing -- RSI is entirely preventable in my office.
A few posts ago, someone made a comment to the effect that many RSI sufferers were just lookin' for a settlement. While I somewhat sympathize with the sentiment, I'd like to take issue with it.
While I have no doubt that some RSI sufferers are (I'm using the stereotype for a reason, bear with me) lazy, good-fer-nuthin' civil-servant clerks or other data entry drones just lookin' for a fat disability check or settlement, I'd point out that it's precisely those low-skill, high-stress, Dilbertian-work-environment jobs where the workers are the least likely to be able to fix their ergonomic problems.
At my office, I'll ask a few cubemates if they hate fluorescents. If enough of us in a given cube-grouping agree they suck, we come to a consensus about which bulbs we can yank without disturbing those who do like lots of light, and we yank the offending bulbs. Likewise, if there's glare from a nearby window making it hard to read the monitor, we block the window. Or we move the gear around the cube so the window's no longer a factor. Presto-changeo, no more eyestrain.
Doing either of these things at a government workplace would probably be grounds for termination.
I have a hunch that for RSI, it's the same deal. My posture sux0rz, but I feel more comfortable that way than The Right Way? My employer doesn't care. I get tired and want to walk away from the desk for a while? I will.
If I worked for the government, I'd probably have the Ergo Police writing me up for violations and forcing me to configure my workspace in a way that would give me an RSI, and my manager writing me up for taking 10.5 minutes, rather than 4.2 minutes, whenever I take a dump.
The next time you think most RSI complainants are BSing, consider the working environment of the typical RSI complainant.
If the typical low-level gummint data entry drone is more likely (by virtue of being $STEREOTYPICAL) to exaggerate their symptoms, keep in mind that (by virtue of being supervised by equally-$STEREOTYPICAL managers!) they're also more likely to have the symptoms as a direct result of their employer's poor working environment.
Blaming the Western Diet for all that ails you sets off my quackometer ;-)
> I've changed my diet, and my tendonitis has gone down considerably. Typing less would eliminate the problem, but hey...0 0.html
> > http://www.drweil.com/database/display/0,1412,72,
You mean this Dr. Andrew Weil, as featured on Quackwatch.
Stephen Barret (operator of Quackwatch) on Weil in an interview is particularly caustic:
Color me skeptical.
(I don't dispute that your symptoms went away after you changed your diet. I do dispute that this implies a causal relationship between your dietary change and your tendonitis relief.)
Me? I had RSI in my right hand from wanking far too often. I tried my left hand, but it wasn't the same. So I got a g/f who'd give me head six times a day while I reconditioned the muscles in my right hand by repeatedly lifting 12-oz weights (usually Guinness, but sometimes Murphy's Stout), and the pain went away after a few weeks. Alcohol consumption and blowjobs are the obvious cure for RSI. (Just don't tell her I'm cured!)
Now hang on just a minute. You can't be sure your problems are caused by the keyboard. Remember, "...a keyboard never hurt anyone...". Maybe the keyboard dropped out of the sky and landed on your wrists, causing long term inflammation and pain?
</JOKE>
I, too, suffer from RSI symptoms, and was kind of outraged to come home from seeing a doctor about just those symptoms to see that my injury wasn't, in fact, genuine, but just a figment of my imagination. I think the people in the article are drawing too strong conclusions from the information they've gathered. I won't discount the fact that probably a large amount of sufferers of carpal tunnel syndrome were, in fact, just paranoid.
But, even upon proving that, I don't think the conclusions they draw are valid. They seem to believe that EVERY case of "computer related repetitive stress injury" is in fact fake, and I don't buy it. Mostly, because I suffer from problems myself, and have for a few years now. I just don't think they have the evidence to make the sweeping statement that EVERY case isn't valid.
Hmm, well, I suppose that this is the point at which we begin mincing words, just what kind of pain would only be considered psychological. Perhaps I AM biased, but I don't think it's necessary to prove to myself or others that the pain I'm dealing with is physiologically based; it's enough for me to see that the pain I'm dealing with seems to come about when I type a lot, and get better when I stop.
Back to the point I was making; I still think there's a conclusion jumped to that every case of repetitive stress injury is psychological, and not physiological. There's a big difference between the words "every" and "most"
Okay, I've just read a large article explaining that these pain suffers do not have their pain caused by CTS, CFS, etc.
So why are they actually in pain?
Saying "It's psychosomatic" or "It's all in your head" is not good enough, because that is precisely what ALL pain is!
He's NOT SAYING THE PAIN ISN'T REAL. So get off your high horses and read the damned article.
He's saying that for some people, the pain, WHICH IS REAL, does not necessarily have an entirely physiological cause. Namely, nothing is wrong in the arm, but they still hurt because they've heard about RSI.
Is it still debilitating? yes. Should they still be treated? yes. But the point is that the enormous media coverage itself may be causing the problem in many people.
If so, it's important to discuss this as a possible problem, instead of blindly bashing the author.
He's right when he says that pain perception is a very complicated issue and the brain has alot of control in what it perceives as pain.
So can we stop flaming and start thinking for a second?
-Brad
I'm sorry, but you could not be more wrong. The hardware is developed at Microsoft in Redmond. Well, at least the following is/was: mice, keyboards, joysticks, gamepads, sterring wheels, & speakers. As far as the newer stuff goes, I'm not sure as I am no longer working there.
The article does not claim that CTS is a hoax, the claim is that people have symptoms of CTS because they believe computer use causes CTS, not because they actually have CTS.
Don't underestimate the power of the mind. It's a well-documented fact that, for instance, people will report feeling hot more often and estimate the temperature in the room to be much higher if accompanied by someone complaining that "it's hot in here!"
Pain is notoriously subjective, and while tendonitis is a real condition, many people who have heard of the problem and have an unhappy workplace might focus their feelings of dissatisfaction on their hands and wrists even if they don't have tendonitis. I know mine are twinging more as I write this because I'm thinking about it.
So to say that sometimes disease sufferers are suffering from a psychosomatic rather than a physical condition does not suggest that the disease doesn't exist or that people who report problems are "faking it." Psychosomatic most emphatically does NOT suggest it's being faked (i.e. someone who is pain free is reporting pain to gain sympathy in a court trial) but that its origin is in the mind.
Mass hysteria is a fascinating subject--witness the fainting spells that would communicate through suggestion in Vienna during Freud's time. Witness the waking dreams accredited to UFO abduction now versus demonic possession in the 1600s versus not at all in Japan. Suggestibility is also a fascinating subject: it is notoriously easy to suggest an alternate version of events to an eyewitness and get them to swear that something happened that didn't happen ("Now, did the man with the green sweater cross the street in front of or behind the car wreck?" when in fact there was no man in a green sweater).
So someone who studies these phenomena is not, ipso facto, out to prove they don't exist.
I have always had terrible posture when typing at my computer. Considering the way I sit, and the fact that my keyboard is not an ergonomic keyboard, the fact that I do not have RSI leads me to believe that a lot of the problem is somewhat hysterical. Every once in a while, after a long session of typing in a bad position, I will feel some pain. If I simply take a break for a few minutes, or adjust my position, I am fine.
.... very bad for the back.
In fact, my biggest problem has been in my right shoulder. I am having a problem with tendonitis as a result of the awkward way I sit at my desk. (My monitor is off to the side and so i sit somewhat sideways
-sirket
I am 20 years old, and 3 years ago i was (mis)diagnoised with radial tunnel syndrome, and last month with carpal tunnel by a neurologist at Yale.
From 16-18 i wrote the tech support mail for an ISP, which is the main reason that i have CTS (that and the crappy compaq keyboard).
If anyone is wondering about pain, there is pain. Lots. Not to mention hand spasms (uncontrolled constriction of muscles lasting up to a minute).
I wear braces at night to take the strain off of my wrists. They have improved the situation, and if i use them for several months, i should approach a normal state.
Anyways, whomever is responsible for the article that says CTS is fake is gullible and has not done any homework.
disability you say?
how wonderful that would be... *sigh*
I remember reading a website about a year ago, by one of the lead developers of EMACS. Unfortunatly, he can not type anymore, so he can not develop anything. Try telling this guy that it's a hoax.
--
microsoft, it's what's for dinner
bq--3b7y4vyll6xi5x2rnrj7q.com
it's a sig, wtf?
wrist splints at night would probably only be needed if something about your sleeping position or habits would aggravate your condition. wrist splints during the day can *prolong* various RSI conditions by not allowing weak muscles to strengthen.
Hot vs. cold is a similar issue. Heat increases blood flow, allows better stretching, but acts to aggravate inflammation. Cold decreases swelling, and can reduce pain, but also decreases blood flow.
Different situations call for different treatment combinations. Consult a physician (which I am not!) experienced in successfully treating conditions like yours, before accepting what some other person tells you what worked for them.
His point is that even though the risks of, say, deep-sea oil drilling, are very real and are often deadly, because they are so tangible, great expense is incurred (in most Western countries) to avoid them. (E.g. oil rigs designed to withstand a 100-year storm, robust lifeboats, drills, and procedures)
He is contrasting it to IT professionals who face risks from RSI that could disable them sufficiently to end their career, but because RSI is such a varied, nebulous medical phenomenon that is dependent almost entirely on self-reported symptoms to diagnose, hardly anything is done by employers to prevent these risks.
He may wish he had phrased it a bit more clearly.
In related news, the moon landing was a hoax, the holocaust never happened, and the American Indians are actually the long lost 12 tribes of Israel.
People can call anything a hoax and drag up enough circumstancial "evidence" to "prove" their point. More often than not, it's a case of people not wanting to believe the truth, or creating controversy.
-Ted
I think part of this is that people mistake other RSI injuries for Carpal Tunnel. Probably a good number of them have tendonitis like me, and think it is something more serious. But certainly long keyboard use can cause pain.
Stand up. Put your hands at your sides, so your palms are touching the outside of your thighs. (e.g. as if you were lining up for the drill sergeant.) Notice how your thumb points towards your front, and your pinky points toward your back. This is position #1.
e.g.
Now keeping your elbow beside your body, raise your hands up 90 degrees so your arms form a L and your thumbs are pointing upwards. (Think of shaking someone's hand.) Now rotate your hands inwards so your thumbs are pointing towards each other. And finally, move your hands together so your thumbs are touching. This is position #2.
Notice the "unnatural" angle your wrists are making in position #2, while the "natural" position of shaking someone's hand doesn't put your wrist in constrained positions.
RSI is real. I have personally noticed symptons over the last few years. After typing all week, I would get a inflamation in my wrists while driving on the weekend. Hurts like hell, and nothing you can do makes it go away. Fortunately it would only as 30 mins.
I switched over to M$ natural keyboard, since there is more space between the TGB and YHN keys versus the traditional keyboard. It is certainly not the best ergonomic keyboard, but I notice that if I go back to a normal keyboard, my wrists tend to get sore.
Interestinly enough I haven't had any symptons of RSI since I started taking Aikido and doing the standard wrist stretches. e.g. Ikkajo, Nikajo, Sankojo, and Kote-gaeshi.
Disclaimer: Consult a qualified doctor before doing any stretches, etc.
Cheers
but probably more complex than just "my keyboard made my wrists hurt" - I know I was typing for 15 years before my tendonitis kicked in and I had to wear a wrist brace for 5 years more. On the other hand I'm pretty sure that the thing that kicked off my pain was not typing - but having kids and all the lifting and bouncing etc involved .... getting a laptop seemed to be the thing that finally fixed it for me - maybe not just because of the less stressfull angle that I hold my wrists at but also because I use a traditional keyboard a bit as well which means I have lots of different ways to work
Tried several other trackballs but unfortunately they just didn't quite compare to the one signed with the mark of the beast hehe.
Seriously though, Microsoft makes outstanding hardware. Maybe it's because I've used them for so long, bu Microsoft mouses (mice?) just *feel* right. When I have to use some custom mouse from Compaq or something, I really notice how crappy other people's designs are.
I also got me one of them split-down-the-middle Microsoft keyboards (why can't I remember their name?) and DAMN it feels good to have the wrists in straight angles to the keys! There's also this cool little proggy that will let you assign any command you want to the round blue shortcut buttons along the top of the keyboard.
(Even more OT: It seems to me that when Microsoft wants to extend a tentacle into a new market, the pretty much always know how to do it right. Evidence: hardware, the upcoming Windows Messenger in WinXP, the upcoming Xbox, web browsers, etc. The list goes on. Just thinkin' out loud...)
---
python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
Often, real RSI sufferers are reluctant to seek the help that goes along with a government check. We love our machines too much. I for one, suffer through the aches, stiff joints, numbness, and keep a-typin.
I've a very rapid typer. Quite fast, in fact. I've been typing since I was 9 years old, and around the age of 21, I started to feel sharp pains in the back of my shoulders, in my elbows, in my wrists, and sometimes even tingling in my finger tips.
I assumed forever that this sensation was carple tunnel syndrom, and that it would only get worse in time. In fact, it did get worse for a very long time until one day I moved my computer desk and bought a new chair.
Oddly enough, I didn't ever feel uncomfortable in my previous chair, and my new one never really felt any more or less comfortable. But the pains vanished none the less. I've been pain free now for about 5 years.
And to think, I was actually considering surgery.
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
Here's something that I gather from your statement (as well as my own experience)... there seems to be a good possibility that it is a temporary condition!
If that's the case, you wouldn't need to go see a doctor, file any damn lawsuits, or wear any braces.. all you would need to do is get a wrist pad or a Natural keyboard.
I know that I only experience any sort of pain after a long typing or mouse using session (such as writing code or playing a game for hours in a row)... if I lay off it for awhile, I'm fine. Could the same be said for all RSI sufferers?
I think I agree about the "faking," but not for the causes you site. Not to dismiss the suffering of people who are genuinely afflicted, but I've noticed a strange pattern of RSI among friends of mine.
It seems that many of them are conveniently stricken when they want to get out of the computing industry anyway, but can't seem to admit it to themselves. One guy I knew took an early retirement when he was diagnosed with RSI, and another friend was starting to question what he really wanted to do with his life when he "came down" with it. It's like they're subconciously looking for a way out without having a concrete plan of what they'd rather do, and this malaise gives them cause to quit. They do, and bam, symptoms go away. But of course they can't return to work because it would lead to a flare up of symptoms.
I don't know. Again, I don't mean to dis anyone's particular situation. It's just kind of shady sometimes, from what I've seen.
---
1) Repeated repetitive movements cause pain in both my wrists. I tend to avoid the activities that cause the pain, so I have avoided CTS to date.
2) A friend of mine has this condition, and I am sorry, but seeing her struggle to pick up a fucking cup of coffee is no hoax.
Feed the need: Digitaladdiction.net
I have RSI pain and I used a tens unit for pain releif and there appear to be two camps on how that helps pain - one being it alters the brain since you are sending signals using the body's communication and the other is that by stimulating blood flow to the region it helps with injured tissue restoration. So for a pain that apparently not everyone agrees is real I'm fighting it with a treatment not everyone can agree how it helps - kinda makes sense in the end I guess...
Wheeeee
I had a painful wrist from using a mouse. It went away when I changed hands. This was a sore wrist, not carpal tunnel syndrome. I met a young lady in Colorado with the real thing. It was very unpleasant, required special braces, and did not abate while I knew her. Computer users should emulate one characteristic of club runners. They should listen to their bodies and treat pain immediately. If something hurts, the person is doing it incorrectly or excessively, possibly both. Back off, rest, and investigate more comfortable ways to do the same thing.
There actually *is* a condition called "conversion disorder", wherein psychological conflict unacceptable to a person is manifested by neurological symptoms. It usually manifests as paralysis, and it's generally not following any pattern that can be explained by real nerves. Therefore, most RSI cases probably aren't conversion. However, you have a good point --- some of them *might* be. Probably a good thing in this case, since it lets the person do what they want.
OK, right, you got me on one of my profs' classic sayings: "any drug can hurt the liver". Touche'. I maintain, however, that NSAIDS in general are not nearly as hepatotoxic as acetaminophen. (There's a *reason* it's a board question.)
That's not Advil, that's Tylenol. The massive liver damage is very specific to acetaminophen. The other drugs bother your liver *far* less; the real problem is that they decrease the secretion of protective mucus in your stomach and can lead to bleeding gastric ulcers (hint: bad).
And as several other people pointed out, acetaminophen has no anti-inflammatory effect, only anti-pain, so you don't want to take it for RSI anyway.
Comment: Repetitive stress injuries are real. Even if they are a matter of "hysteria", the pain is real. If a person thinks they are in pain, then they are actually in pain. Pain is subjective. Perception is reality...
Resource: The Facts About Repetitive Strain Injuries
How to Download YouTube Videos
Edward Shorter is the history of medicine chairman at the University of Toronto that is quoted in the article. Here is a page that seems like a review of his work on RSI. Mildly useful.
From Paralysis to Fatigue: A History of Psychosomatic Illness in the Modern Era
The Kennedy Family and the Story of Mental Retardation
Bedside Manners
So, the point of these links is this: This dude's whole career is based on bashing illness. He seems to think that almost any illness or disease is in the mind.
The pain in your wrist, elbow, arm, and back is fake. Do you hear me? Fake! Just ask Edward...
How to Download YouTube Videos
If you investigate hearing loss, you often find that people develop a "ringing in the ear" which eventually "goes away" if they don't remain around very loud noises.
What actually happens is not that the ringing stops, because it's reallly a result of some permanent damage in the ear. Instead, the human brain gets accustomed to the ringing sound and learns to block it out, so the person suffering doesn't even notice it any more. This, however, results in reduced hearing.
Why should carpal tunnel/RSI be different?
I know more than one person who was diagnosed with crippling carpal tunnel and had expensive surgery to fix it. Now, I suppose the doctors say those individuals are "healed", and skeptics may even claim they never needed treatment because it would have "gone away on its own".
I know that neither of these people can ever go back to typing and using the mouse with anywhere near the same frequency as before, though. Typing a little too long will cause symptoms to flare right back up. That says to me, there is permanent and irrepairable damage there. Sure, if they don't use a PC again - they might eventually feel fine after the surgery, but it doesn't mean they're 100% normal. If they were, 2 hours of typing wouldn't cause them pain.
#611: People on Slashdot assuming they are more intelligent on a particular topic than the "world's leading" authority. A person in this position does not state things at random, duh!
Unlike your story (+5 Insightful), the story it mocks deserves a (-1 Troll)
This is a manual virus. Copy it to your sig and help me spread!
It's a well known fact that dealing with repetitively stupid questions on tech support leads to a near constant pain in the ass. In fact, I only have to read a story like this and my ass starts hurting in sympathy for all the tech support people who had to deal with questions relating to it.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
How about if RSI has been an occupational hazard since the 19th century.
Telegraph operators spent their working lives pounding out dots and dashes on a vertical up and down key. And many developed a condition that was then called "Glass Arm", but is now called RSI.
In fact there were many designs for ergonomic keys that worked sideways instead vertical, the most popular and effective was the Bug (invented in 1904) which would make a dash when held in one direction and a series of dots when held in the other, requiring far less movement to operate.
It has been known for over a century that repetative up and down movements of the fingers and wrist, similar to that involved in typing, can cause a longterm painful injury to the wrists.
What typing method do you use?
Have you read the article on Dvorak keyboards in the latest 'The Perl Journal' ?
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
I think it has to do with improving the musculature. Used to be I would have some tendonitis after a long coding session. Same think for the neck pain. Had some neck pain a web page recommended simple excercize: slowly tilt head forward then slowly back, forward...back, 5 times. then left, then right, etc, 5 times. Voila, no neck pain. IMHO, I think the cause is overworking one part while underworking another. Balancing with excercise pays off. -Wargames
-- Each tock of the Planck clock is a new world and here we are still life. --
Be that good, bad, or indifferent -- It's infotainment -- After all, if you really want scientific information, you'd read a scientific journal.
Advil (along with other over-the-counter painkillers) is also well known for causing liver damage, including acute hepatic failure in rare cases. Large doses and alcohol exacerbate this effect.
"Although the majority of ibuprofen overdosages are not very serious, acute renal failure, hepatic failure, and hypotension and coma have been described" "Tissue levels of ibuprofen after fatal overdosage of ibuprofen and acetaminophen." Steinmetz JC, Lee CY, Wu AY.
"In the group of propionic acid derivatives, ibuprofen, pirprofen and naproxen have been implicated in hepatitis of various types" "[Hepatitis due to nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory agents]" Furet Y, Metman EH, Breteau M, Bertrand J.
"Ninety years ago aspirin was discovered, and within the last forty years phenylbutazone, indomethacin, ibuprofen, the oxicams and many others were discovered. All of these drugs are acidic. They inhibit the prostaglandin synthetase, combine analgesic and anti-inflammatory activity and show side-effects mainly in the GI-tract, liver, bone-marrow, and kidney...Intensive hepatic metabolisation may be related to enhanced hepatic damage...These observations indicate that certain pharmacokinetic characteristics of distinct nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) are responsible, at least in part, for well-known side-effects." "Towards safer nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs." Brune K, Beck WS.
This could also be interesting reading:
"Drug-induced hepatic injury: an analysis of 1100 cases reported to the Danish Committee on Adverse Drug Reactions between 1978 and 1987." Friis H, Andreasen PB.
Surgery will ruin any chance of full recovery.
Someone set us up the bomb, so shine we are!
Ice will make the soft tissue more fragile and slow down healing. I dunno what you're thinking when you say compress, YOU NEED good blood flow to heal. And my last statement goes for elevating too.
Nice thread subject though...
Someone set us up the bomb, so shine we are!
Gobble Ginkgo Biloba instead, improves memory too!
Someone set us up the bomb, so shine we are!
Its not a good idea to have your wrists stuck at some horrible angle while you bang away either.
Someone set us up the bomb, so shine we are!
But where can I find a nice mushy Dvorak keyboard that doesn't have any windows logos on them?
Someone set us up the bomb, so shine we are!
There is quite a difference betweeh "fake" and "psycological".
A psycologically indiuced pain is just as real of a pain as one caused by physical ailments. It hurts just as much. The brain is where pain exists anyway - ALL "pain" - with or without a physical ailment - is "all in your head". The only differenc eis whether there is a real physiological reason for the pain or if pain and apparent physiology is caused .
They are simply reporting what they have found by gathering data. Perhaps you are outraged because you don't want to believe that this horrid pain could have come without physical ailment? Perhaps the social implications of problems "in your head" carries enough stigma that you immediatly dissmiss any such idea without giving the evidence a fair look? In short, perhaps you are biased in this case?
The law of fives is never wrong.
-Steve
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
That is true...
however, if most are psycological and not physiological, then alternative treatments need to be found. Taking large amounts of anti-inflamitories like ibprofin are not only bad for the stomac, but for the liver.
slightly hepatoxic medications are great for pains and inflamations... but if they are just being used as placeblos, then perhaps something better is in order?
knowing the real underlying cause of the pain is the first step in comming up with treatment plans that actually solve the problem, rather than just make the symptomes go away for a while.
-Steve
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
You know, I got out of the Computer Science degree (I'm still in college, mind you) because my wrists started to hurt.
I found that when I didn't type for hours on end (with or without breaks) my wrists didn't burn nearly as much.
I submit to you that it's the continual aggrivation of the inflamation that causes the majority of the problems and the removal of that aggrivation will solve many of them.
Isn't it more reasonable to say that in all but the most extreme cases, the damage isn't permanent and if you take a keyboard vacation, you very well may get your wrists back.
What's so contraversial abou that? --NF
Take a look in one of those drug side-affects books (you know the ones that are almost as thick as they are wide). You'll find that one of those side-affects is *Swelling*!
There: Something at a specific location.
Their: Owned by someone.
Please make sure your english compiles.
I don't think that keyboard-related pain is a myth, and anyone that has ever worked in an ergonomically-challenged work environment knows that. However, I know that once the ergonomic problems are corrected (chair higher, desk lower, wrist rest, whatever) the symptoms do disappear for most people. I nearly got fired for stealing a chair from a conference room at work because the pain in my right shoulder was unbearable because my chair was too low. As soon as I started typing the symptoms disappeared. However, that doesn't mean they were never there to begin with.
---
Actually I like fridgeOS. Its pretty straight forward: door open = light on.
Luckily for me my body came preinstalled with balls for me to roll around. Also I got a bonus sack to hold the balls in!!!
The article is not about whether they hurt, it's about whether they are a permanaent injury, or something that magically goes away if people can get away from their keyboards for a while.
Got Rhinos?
I'm tired of all these Karma whores writing "insightful" and "informative" responses to articles they haven't read.
Got Rhinos?
Doesn't Alex Chiu have something to combat repetitive stress injuries?
Got Rhinos?
I agree with you 100% -- In fact, I think for me it was the mousewheel that did it. Since I shut that off, and started using the keyboard for everything but web browsing, my wrist has gotten a lot better. I second your comment!
Like many other folks here, I had problems with RSI such as carpal tunnel syndrome, and have had improvements to my keyboard/desk/mouse/etc which have improved my situation.
The article said nothing about a hoax, but rather that it was real pain introduced by the brain but perhaps without physical cause. A hoax would have an entirely different meaning; in that people didn't feel pain and were claiming RSIs to "MAKE MONEY FAST". This isn't the case.
Check out our infosecurity industry blog: http://securitymusings.com/
As boomers get older, I expect new hysterias to surface.
It may or may not be developed by Microsoft, but they contract out production to other companies. Many of the SideWinder joypads, for example, are made by Mitsumi (according to the circuit board) with Microsoft's name the visible outside name. In fact, I seriously doubt that Microsoft will build X-Boxes themselves, either -- that, too, will probably fall to one of these other hardware companies.
I used up all my sick days, so I'm calling in dead.
Did anyone bother to read the article? No, that would simply clog the disucssion with useless facts.
/. discussion now... "Are they saying my cousin DIDN'T die in that crash? How dare they!!!"
They don't say RSI is a hoax. They say that a lot of people suffer pain. They also say that the vast majority of people that COMPLAIN of pain are not really suffering from a clinical RSI. That the number of real clinical RSIs is small by comparison. What is controvertial about that?
Kind of like saying that not all car accidents are fatal. I can see the
no, actually, they have been outlawed in Canada. Apparently, they can be used to do bad things. So they say.
I'd like to offer an alternative viewpoint with regard to CFS. I have had it for 8 years. It's very debilitating. The inability to think clearly and the physical weakness are real symptoms that I cannot make go away even though I know that they are "all in my head".
/. readers. I don't want or need excuses. I want to function well so I can perform as a contributing member of society and follow my ambitions.
Although I suspect there are many different things that might case one to be chronically fatigued, my best theory so far for what is causing MY fatigue is that I went far too many years not properly caring for my body and brain, and one day, things just fell apart. I didn't have problems until I got Mono, but that was probably just the straw that broke the camel's back.
I have come to realize is that my sleep patterns have always been poor. I get to bed late, and I don't sleep soundly. I have also eaten a relatively poor diet. And I have led a sedentary life in front of a TV and a computer keyboard.
Changing my habits has had a profound effect on my health and energy levels. Exercising before bed helps me get to sleep easier, in addition to improving my general cardiovascular efficiency. Eating a proper diet and cutting out certain foods that seem to cause me trouble (soy gives me headaches) have also yielded significant improvements.
I would honestly like to forget that CFS exists. I hold a good job and make a salary higher than most of the best paid
So, even if there is some mysterious pathogen or systemic failure which is causing me problems, optimizing my health to its maximum will get me at least near normal levels, and with my immune system improved, any other causes will surely go away in time themselves.
I know full well what it's like to want to go out an have fun but be entirely unable because you're just too tired. And I know full well that CFS is not depression. Recovery is a long, difficult process, but there is no magic cure. You just have to treat your body right and fix it yourself, because whining about it isn't going to make other people want to help, understand, or care. They can't.
When I took it, it was called 'typing' umpty-many years ago, and the old battleaxe* who taught the class kept telling me to put my feet flat on the floor and straighten up. I really thought she was making a big deal out of nothing -- but here it is a couple of lifetimes later (How old are you?), and when my hands get tired, I stop and it goes away... unlike an RSI.
*I mean that affectionately. Really.
--
"Ain't no right way to do a wrong thing."
Call me cynical either about malingering employees or heartless callous companies, but I can't help but suspect some sort of correlation.
-John
Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage
Examples. Please.
I'm waiting.....
You don't have any, do you.
Find somewhere else to troll your little lies.
I've found that "shutdown now -h" is a very bad way to make friends when you're sharing a server.
That's shutdown -h now, skippy.
--
BTW: If you have tendonitis, a lot of doctors will tell you to take Advil (or a generic version of it). That's because Advil is an anti-inflamitory drug that actually reduces the swelling in your wrist. Since the swolen tendons is what is causign all the friction (which causes more pain and more swelling), reducing it is a Good Thing. Other pain killers will 1: not reduce the swelling, and 2: ease the pain, allowing you to cheerfully type away and hurt yourself more.
Yep! Advil is an NSAID (Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug). Any NSAID will have the same (or similar) effect.
However, be warned that NSAIDs are not a magic bullet; constant use of them has been shown to cause stomach ulcers/bleeding.
If you type a lot, get an ergonomic keyboard (the Microsoft Natural Keyboard Pro is a great piece of hardware) and a decent chair (I highly recommend the Aeron Chair if you can afford it -- it's like floating on air, even after sitting it for hours on end!). Your body will thank you!
--
Fuck me to tears. I wish I had moderator points to mod this up to Funny +3. Thanks for the laugh. Rich
"Elephants are about to rampage through downtown Calgary and kill us all!"
"No they aren't!"
"YES THEY ARE! Quick, everybody blow these magic elephant-repelling whistles to keep them away!"
*tweet* *tweet*
(Elephants fail to appear.)
"Whew! Looks like we saved the city, and just in time, too!"
"BUT THERE WEREN'T ANY ELEPHANTS..."
"YES THERE WERE! SHUT UP AND BLOW YOUR WHISTLE!"
Now, I'm not saying that either environmental concerns or RSI/carpal tunnel are hoaxes, but there are an awful lot of cases out there that bear a strong resemblance to elephant whistles...
...some doctors don't feel RSI is real. My insurance company sent me to one when I was diagnosed with tendinitis. He refused to believe I was actually injured, stating that I was having 'chronic arm pain' from a 'lack of conditioning'. That my wrists were just _tired_ from typing all day. And he prescribed physical therapy ... which caused damage to my wrists that was much more severe than the original tendinitis had been. A crushed median nerve isn't exactly fun...
I have a good doctor now, and my wrists are healing (I can feel some of my fingers again), but a significant amount of damage was caused by a doctor's refusal to believe RSI exists.
Doctors who don't believe their patients' injuries are real will cause more injury.
---
reverend lola
the titanium sheep
reverend lola
the titanium sheep
provider of steel wool
I'm dying to know where the funds for this "research" came from.
I first got carpal when I was 21, before I was a tech-geek, before I'd ever heard of it, and way before I even had health insurance. I got it under control with way too many ibuprofens daily, and by stopping all "unnecessary" manual activities: reading books, sewing, crochet...
Ibuprofen helped, and I took it for seven years every day, until it started giving me an ulcer last fall.
Since then I've switched to a much better alternative for treatment, lifting weights at the gym. I wish any of the doctors I had seen had recommended this method of control to me, since nothing else I have tried has been effective without other side-effects. But carpal is still always there, I'll always be prone to it (as long as I stay in my writing profession), but at least I can pick up a pen, and open a jar, and live like a normal person.
The article mentions the woman who's carpal "went away like it had never been" after her company spent all kinds of money on a dictaphone for her. Did it not cross anyone's minds that perhaps this device helped her? Or that her increased awareness of how she sat and what activities caused her pain allowed her to adjust it?
Carpal is more prevalent than ever. When I started wearing a brace years ago, almost everyone assumed I'd done a header on my bike or otherwise injured myself "acutely". They were surprised when I told them it was chronic, because I was so young. But I was apparently just being a trend-setter. In my office of 25 or so, about 6 or 7 of us either wear braces, do physical therapy or have those kooky side-impact keyboards (funded from our own pockets).
Perhaps these researches are frustrated because they look at medidal conditions as a specific set of symptoms that can be "cured" by some drug or surgery. I agree carpal is not like that. As a result of my complete lack of success getting any medical treatment or even good advice for it, my entire view of doctors and my willingness to put trust in them has been greatly lessened. I miss it. I want to believe that when something hurts, they can make it better.
These people are on crack if they think we're all torturing ourselves just because we don't like our jobs and can't admit it to ourselves, or whatever psychological justification they're going for. I am really happy for those who have gone into remission, but how dare they use some special-interest funded study (HMO's perhaps?) to tell the rest of us we're just imagining that we're injured.
Doing my part to piss off the religious right.
Actually, this is explained by Masamune Shirow in his notes for the manga (upon which the movie is based).
According to Shirow, the typist in that scene belonged to an older generation that reached maturity before the advent of reliable commercial direct-to-brain electronic interfaces.
As a result, he was typically uncomfortable with the idea of some "newfangled cyber-doctor" shoving wires into his brain, but was willing to accept older and more proven surgery on his hands to radically increase his data input rate.
On a side note, Shirow is generally pretty obsessive about documenting the technical concepts in his work. He often includes fairly large appendices containing a wealth of background philosophical, mystical, and technical information - most of it apparently to justify the "look and feel" of his characters and equipment.
Shirow regularly acknowledges the maintenance costs of high-tech solutions, and suggests that this is the main challenge facing gov't and military purchasers when selecing new hardware.
Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.
Oof. You might be helping your hands out with the Ibuprofin, but you're definitely not doing your stomach any good. I'm pretty sure that studies have shown that people who take Ibuprofin are at increased risk for ulcers. (Yes, studies can show just about anything, but I think these are legit).
My mom was a waitress for a fairly good while, and while they didn't call her condition Carpal Tunnel (this would be, eh, say 1985 or so), she did have to have surgery on the nerves in her wrists due to carrying around big trays with bent wrists all the time... Krilia
Tendonitis is far more common, in my experience -- I'd like to have seen that discussed in this context.
Agreed. I was recently diagnosed with DeQuervain's Tenosynovitis, a painful inflamation of the tendons that move the thumb and its tendon sheath. In my case, it started without apparent reason as a general soreness around the bone that sticks out as a bump at the base of the thumb, combined with nasty sharp pains with certain movements of my hand. My first thought was "Carpal Tunnel Syndrome?" since a friend in the IT industry had been diagnosed with this. As you say, CTS is "the flu" of hand injuries.
A word of warning: After my doctor told me what I had I, naturally I checked the web to find out more about it. Many of the pages (but not this one) describe "Finkelstein's test" along the lines of: "form a fist with the thumb inside, then move sharply outwards." DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME! - I did, and was in extreme pain for some time afterwards (and made some rather pointed remarks about Finkelstein's parentage...) I also made the overall problem several times worse that it was and set the healing back at least a week. As the link above explains, this description is wrong and can cause pain even in normal hands. The correct test as described in the link is what my doctor used.
"Curiosity killed the cat."
and your going to be backing up that comment with what facts?!?
who sez death can't be funny....www.endlesssorrow.com
I have RSI like anything. Comes back every so often. Like any body part, if you strain something it stays for quite some time. Being a tech person, I tend to type a lot. To get rid of RSI permanently, I'd need 3 months' holiday. I can't fall behind like that, so....
Oh well, maybe someday I'll get done with typing.
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. - G.B. Shaw
my fellow-coworker had RSI. Got some nerve inflammation. Had to go through some surgery and change her profession. I don't think she just faked it. OTOH, even if I type a lot, I have more or less professional typing skills, and so my hands move very little when I type. Never had any problems, even mintor one.
Besides switching to an ergonomic keyboard, I started practising Aikido (Japanese martial art) a year ago. I've never had major problems since then. Aikido puts a lot of controlled stress on the wrists so my guess is that this helps keeping them elastic. Go find a DoJo in your vicinity at: http://www.aikiweb.com/search/ ;-)
DI Robert Lichtenberger effad@gmx.at
I'm a Unix Admin and C/Perl coder/scripter ... I have had various degrees of these types of pains. They way I could remove them is taking three golf balls into the palms of my hands (palms up) and rotate the balls around for a few minutes each day. The pains went away with in weeks and have not had pains for quite some time now.
.. i'll get the ol' three golf balls out for a few minutes ....
Every once in a while if I feel the pains to even start to come back
Ryan
My wrists would always be really tight after typing and it started to get worse and painful so I bought a wrist support from relax the back. It did an incredible job helping me out. It probably took about a month for it to go away completely.
This support actually attached to the mouse and moved with the mouse.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
The high-tech equivalent of that of would be a certain Micro$oft employee telling companies 'It's not your fault you're not making money, it's that evil GPL software sucking down profits'. This doesn't convince people right out, but it is giving people a scapegoat, and an excuse to push in the direction they wanted to go anyhow.
---=-=-=-=-=-=---
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
I have thought about this a lot.
My grandmother was a typist. In her day the typewriters were black, heavy, and the keys were hard as hell(compared to todays keyboards) to press.
No one of here generation ever complained of wrist problems, and some of them typed all day for 8+hours with only 30 minutes to stop for lunch.
Yet today, many people have Corpal tunnel syndrome, Why? whats the difference?
Proper form. All typist I have ever met have a very specific way of holding there hands over the keyboard.
Once that occured to me I started watching people who comp[lain of wrist problems(myself included) all of themrest there wrist on the table when using a keyboard and mouse.
So I adopted the 'old typest' way of holding my hands over the keyboard. within a month mymproblem went away.
in conclusion Is corpal tunnel syndrom real? yes. But proper form will prevent it from occuring, and could help it go away.brM
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
CTS and RSI are all in the mind. Why don't we go audit them away? You'll feel much better tomorrow...
--
Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
Although I've never suffered anything beyond minor aches from extensive typing, a friend of mine had/has a serious case of RSI. She developed it after extensive typing in during a single summer internship. She had to use a brace as well as take some time off from school since she was not able to write. In the end she's done quite well even though she needed to stay an extra semester.
She's worked extremely hard to do well despite RSI, its no hoax for her.
Once you have a genuine RSI injury, you never recover - you live with it. I had wrist, hand and shoulder pain and went through two months of physical therapy, and now work at an ergonomic bi-level table. I'm fine most of the time, but pain can come back if I use my PC improperly (particularly with mousing) or I stop doing certain flexing exercises. A healthy person can do all sorts of "improper" things with their PC use and think RSI is a hoax, but after you sustain an RSI injury it makes all those simple things much more prone to pain. I relish the old days of 6+ hour sessions at the computer, not giving a damn what angle my arm was at, where my wrist was sitting, etc.
This statment implies that CTS is faked -- or the person has something else, but they claim it's a condition that is a class that is they can be compensated for.
Verbal score on a GRE, I thought it was a silent test.
Fight Spammers!
But, many people clump all RSIs are CTS. Some doctors will either decide Carpal tunnel or tendinitis. If it's CTS they cut, if it's tendinitis, they use drugs and tell you to change careers.
What you have to keep in mind is that if you rest, there will be reocvery. If you correct the ergonomics, and rest it won't be a problem after you recover. If you put your hand in a fire, take it out, then let it heal, your hand won't hurt.
Fight Spammers!
I sued Mattel for trying to shut me up by using illegal litigation. Just like they did with others.
Keep in mind, if you say something they don't like, they may try to bankrupt you with litigation. And as a condition of settlement, they would require you to only say nice things about them.
Fight Spammers!
I spent three weeks in Hoboken, NJ and don't have lung cancer, so lung cancer must not exist.
They have shown that people with CTS have denervations in the median nerve that are relieved with surgery. I find that to be convincing evidence of a condition.
You don't need a 1:1 correlation on cause and effect to establish an existence of a condition. Things besides typing cause CTS and other RSIs.
Fight Spammers!
However, my wife DOES have CTS, due to many employers refusing to deal with ergonomics. One even fired her for it, right after they refused to to get her an ergo keyboard. I don't want to say who it was or anything, but if you live in Arizona, it's the utility company with "The Power to Make it Happen.(disappear)"
Know what helped that? Not surgery, thats for damn sure. Weekly massage therapy and an hour a night with her arms up to the shoulders in ice water. That is true pain, really. I would definitely suggest holistic methods for getting rid of it thought, you will keep the use of your hands during recovery, and if it doesnt work, at least you don't have 6" scars in your wrists and no use of your arms below the elbows.
"See, we plan ahead! That way, we never have to do anything now."
You can find the article here.
For geek dads: Contraction Timer
>I know plenty of painful typists complete with
>wrist guards and wincing who probably won't
>agree that their symptoms aren't genuine.
I don't think I haven't never seen double negatives that ain't that bad neither.
I'm sorry, I don't normally poke fun like this, as I am a terrible typist. Mod me down if you like, or up if you smiled.
---Lane
What's the point of moderating?!
Your government
People who suffer from these injuries actually do vanish. They say "Screw the pain! I gotta have my clicking FIX!" and go back to playing Diablo II all day.
Men believe what they want. - Caesar
John Emmer -- VidEo GAme eNthusiast, Philosopher, Software Engineer
jjustice@sensus-communis.com -- www.sensus-communis.com
jjustice@veganpub.com -- www.veganpub.com
SO if the pain myteriously dispears. It must not exist. Much like the headache I had last week. What is this the middle ages???
It's a new kind of Hytsteria
Seems to me that most "discoveries" in medicine nowadays (at least in America) follow a similar pattern:
- Medical journal makes announcement of new breakthrough treatment/drug/cause/prevention technique. Rest of medical community hails this as a major breakthrough.
- American public spends billions of dollars, either their own or their insurance companies, on said breakthrough.
- Fast forward 2-3 years, when another medical journal reports findings that are the exact opposite of what the original journal found.
- Repeat until public is paranoid of everything, and quite willing to pay any amount of money to cure the "affliction of the month".
Wow, that's cynical even for me. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of doctors, researchers, etc out there doing some great work. Mostly I blame the media I guess (yeah, there's an easy target). Every disease is a death sentence, every cure a life saver on the 10:00 news.
I mean if it takes over a hundred years to discover that most stomach ulcers are caused by a bacteria; perhaps all these diseases are symptoms of a viruses that spread and only very occasionally cause these symptoms in some of the affected people.
;-)
After all, most diseases that we hear of are the nasty ones. But nasty diseases don't tend to last as well as the (mostly) innocuous ones.
Perhaps CTS is caused by a virus that has passed its epidemic! Just because they can't find a cause, doesn't mean that there isn't one. If there was a virus that weakens the nerves in hands or something, how would we know? Who would look for it?
Maybe there was a virus that caused low blood sugar in the 70s too.
Or perhaps not...
-WolfWithoutAClause
"Gravity is only a theory, not a fact!"I completely agree.
I myself have the Trackball Explorer and the MS Natural keyboard Pro, in response to the aches and cramps I have been having with normal keyboards and mice. This change is HIGHLY recommended; getting good components will significantly reduce the pain experienced during computing sessions.
I've tried the logitech marbleman fx and it just doesn't compare to Microsoft's ergonomics. Sad to say, but this is one thing Microsoft (or whoever make their products) excell at.
If she's well enough to strangle doctors, she's well enough to type.
-- the most controversial site on the Web
I don't know why I'm saying this, because /. is perpetually misrepresenting the articles it links to, but the article in question DOES NOT say that Carpal Tunnel Syndrome doesn't exist. Rather it says that there does not appear to be a link between keyboard use and carpal tunnel syndrome. (i.e. Office workers using regular keyboards, have the same incidence of carpal tunnel as the rest of society).
/. were told that they were not infected with HIV, they would conclude that AIDS is a big hoax...
I suppose that if the editors of
. --- If you're looking for free e-mail you won't find it here! http://www.noemailhere.com
I'll probably get flamed for saying this by people who think yoga is a form of religion, but in my experience it works. I suffered a lot of pain from working at keyboard and mouse until I took up yoga. I think the best pose to combat wrist pain is a simple one - bend over and stand on your hands. The posture is a variation of uttanasana, where you bend over completely and allow the weight of your head to pull your head toward your toes (it's a great stretch for your spine and legs too). Then place your hands under your feet (one foot at a time if you don't want to fall over), with palms touching soles and with toes touching wrists. When you are stable, lift your chest and look forward, trying to flatten your back. Then use your arm strength to fold your torso in deeper. The tension will help you massage your wrist muscles. It's a tough pose for beginners to hold very long but well worth it. I think there's a book called office yoga or something like that with simple explanations of poses for people who have never tried it before.
Personally, I take a single 200 mg tablet if & when I feel pain, and if the pain is still there a half-hour later, I can always pop one more (I have not needed to yet).
For me, this ammounts to about 2-3 pills per week, rather than several per day.
But then, I'm one of those people who believes all medicine should be used very conservatively. Our bodies are pretty good at fixing themselves if we don't mess them up too much.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
Acetominophen is a wonderful substance for getting rid of pain... but that is not the goal here.
If you just get rid of the pain, without dealing with the swelling, you dramatically increase the chances of injuring yourself.
(Pain is, after all, a survival mechanism which is supposed to prevent us from damaging ourselves.)
Or as Governor Jesse "The Body" Ventura would say:
"Pain is the feeling of weakness leaving the body. Pain is good, and extreme pain is extremely good."
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
You are not really an RSI sufferer (yet). The pain you have experienced is from the friction of your nerves and tendons passing through the carpal tunnel. That kind of thing heals quickly when you get away from the cause for a while.
People with CTS had the same thing happen, but rather than "lay off for a while", they continued to crank away at their data-entry jobs. Their tendons swelled up, resulting in even more tightness, which not only caused even more pain, but also caused some long-term damage to the nervous system. Their hands are now useless pieces of meat.
One indicator of the relationship is that smokers tend to suffer from RSI less... because they take smoke breaks every couple hours. Non-smokers don't feel comfortable telling their boss that they want to stop working and hang out at the entrance of the building for 10 minutes several times a day, so they soldier on straight through, breaking only for lunch.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
If you have pain in your wrist that doesn't go away after a day away from the keyboard, it does not mean you have permanent RSI damage yet. Change your ergonomics and/or work habits, and you may be back to being your old self. Or you could ignore the pain, pop a couple asprin, and end up crippling yourself. Your call.
BTW: If you have tendonitis, a lot of doctors will tell you to take Advil (or a generic version of it). That's because Advil is an anti-inflamitory drug that actually reduces the swelling in your wrist. Since the swolen tendons is what is causign all the friction (which causes more pain and more swelling), reducing it is a Good Thing. Other pain killers will 1: not reduce the swelling, and 2: ease the pain, allowing you to cheerfully type away and hurt yourself more.
In spite of articles like this... take care of your hands. Getting along without them would be tough.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
Yahoo is running this article on carpal tunnel syndrome. It reports on research done on the association between heavy computer use and carpal tunnel syndrome. Basically, 10.5% of heavy computer users who report symptoms of carpal tunnel syndrome actually met the clinical criteria; and in 3.5% the diagnosis was confirmed by electromyogram (that is, nerve conduction survey).
Frylock: That's not a toy!
Master Shake: You say that about everything you own. You should own toys. They're fun.
I saw this article posted on the Mayo Clinic intranet, so I thought I would post it here, since I don't think it is accessible through their web site to the general public (yet).
Here it is:
Mayo Clinic Study Debunks Possible Link Between Heavy Computer Use and Carpal Tunnel Syndrome
Surprising even the researchers themselves, a new study from Mayo Clinic found that heavy computer use, even up to seven hours per day, did not increase a person's risk of carpal tunnel syndrome (CTS).
The results of the research, to be published in the June 12 issue of Neurology, indicate that only 10.5 percent of the study participants, all of whom used computers extensively, met clinical criteria for CTS. This incidence is similar to that found in the general population in past studies, according to the authors of Mayo Clinic's manuscript.
"We had expected to find a much higher incidence of carpal tunnel syndrome in the heavy computer users in our study because it is a commonly held belief that computer use causes carpal tunnel syndrome," says J. Clarke Stevens, M.D., Neurology, and lead author of the study. "The other finding was that among our cases of carpal tunnel syndrome, two-thirds of them had very mild carpal tunnel syndrome. Our study results were unexpected," said Dr. Stevens. Dr. Stevens formerly served as chair of the Department of Neurology at Mayo Clinic in Scottsdale, Ariz.
This is the first major study to consider the association between the syndrome and computer usage.
"The findings are contrary to popular thought, but nobody has studied the problem carefully," says Dr. Stevens. "There has been very little formal study of carpal tunnel syndrome in computer users, and there is not much to find in the literature on this topic. We studied computer users because though there is a commonly held notion that using a computer causes CTS, there really have been few studies published that looked at this in a scientific way."
Dr. Stevens offers a message of relief for those who may have wondered about their risks of the so-called "office plague" due to long hours spent in front of a computer. "I'd like computer users to know that prolonged use of a computer does not seem to lead to carpal tunnel, at least not in our employees who used computers up to seven hours per day," says Dr. Stevens. Carpal tunnel syndrome is a common condition in the population, however, which means that some computer users will develop carpal tunnel syndrome. Our study suggests, however, that the risk of developing the syndrome is not increased by working at a computer."
Dr. Stevens indicates that though computer use may not be as highly associated with CTS as thought, it is associated with numerous other medical issues. "Carpal tunnel syndrome in computer users has been thought of as a repetitive motion disorder, and it has been assumed that computer use might cause carpal tunnel syndrome as part of such a disorder. People who use the computer do get a lot of other aches and pains in the neck, shoulder, arm and wrist, but most of them do not get carpal tunnel syndrome from using a computer."
As CTS is not the only ergonomics issue related to computer usage, a correct office setup still has great merit, according to Dr. Stevens.
"The question arises as to whether ergonomically correct work stations are important," he says. "I think they continue to be very important, because there are a variety of aches and discomfort that can result from using a computer. A majority of the computer users in our study, including those without carpal tunnel syndrome, had experienced neck and upper extremity pain during the two years prior to the study. "What we are saying is that at least in our employees studied, computer use did not seem to increase the risk of getting carpal tunnel syndrome."
There are a variety of factors that do contribute to CTS, according to the study authors. "The major risk factors for developing carpal tunnel syndrome are being female and middle-aged," says Dr. Stevens. "There are many other causes of carpal tunnel syndrome, such as wrist trauma, diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis and pregnancy."
Repetitive motions in industries outside the office also have been linked to CTS, Dr. Stevens says.
"There is certainly a whole variety of other jobs that are much more labor-intensive that we think might cause carpal tunnel syndrome, such as working in a meat packing plant or using a jackhammer," says Dr. Stevens. "There have been a number of studies of factory workers and people in packing plants that suggest that type of repetitive motion does seem to be associated with carpal tunnel syndrome."
Though the Mayo Clinic study authors consider their study to be an important first step in studying CTS and computer use, they would like to see further research conducted on the topic.
"I think the study needs to be confirmed by other centers, possibly with a larger number of computer users," says Dr. Stevens. "I think more study is needed of this question."
The Mayo Clinic study was conducted with employees identified to be heavy computer users at Mayo Clinic in Scottsdale, Ariz.
"We chose Mayo Clinic employees because we knew we could find out who were computer users at our medical center," says Dr. Stevens. "We have a large number of secretaries and people who do transcription and patient accounts billing. All of those are occupations that make heavy use of a computer, so we had our own ready-made study group right in our own facility."
The investigators sent surveys to 314 employees inquiring about hand numbness and sensations of "pins and needles," common symptoms of carpal tunnel syndrome. Of the 257 people who responded to the survey, those who indicated symptoms suggestive of carpal tunnel syndrome were invited to a clinical study unit for an interview and completion of further questionnaires. Unless these patients were clearly diagnosable with a condition other than CTS, they were tested for CTS via electromyogram (EMG), or a nerve conduction study. Only 27, or 10.5 percent, of the participants met clinical criteria for CTS, and in nine, or 3.5 percent, EMG confirmed the syndrome.
Though the researchers did not discover CTS in a high percentage of the participants, other conditions potentially linked to the office work environment were present in a larger number of participants.
"There were about 30 percent of our employees surveyed who had tingling of various sorts in the hand, but only 10.5 percent of them turned out to have carpal tunnel syndrome," says Dr. Stevens. "They had tingling from involvement of other nerves and a variety of symptoms that are likely not clinically significant. The vast majority of the people who had tingling in the hand but didn't have carpal tunnel syndrome did not have any serious illness as far as we could determine. A few of them had what is called an 'ulnar neuropathy,' which relates to another nerve in the hand, a few of them had pinched nerves in the neck, and a lot of them had rather mild and nondescript tingling that really did not mean much clinically."
For those who suspect that they may have problems in their hands, Dr. Stevens suggests consulting one's family physician first, who would then make a decision about obtaining nerve conduction studies or perhaps refer to a hand clinic or surgeon for further evaluation.
Research suggests that one person in 10 will develop symptoms of CTS over a lifetime. CTS is a compression of the median nerve at the wrist, leading to numbness tingling and pain in the hand. The median nerve passes through the carpal tunnel at the wrist and into the palm where it sends branches that control feeling to the thumb, index, middle and part of the ring fingers. Symptoms of CTS include tingling, pain or numbness in the hand and fingers. "It's typically worse with reading a newspaper or book, talking on the phone or driving a car, and frequently it wakes people up in the middle of the night with tingling or pain in the hand," says Benn Smith, M.D., co-author of the study and neurologist at Mayo Clinic in Scottsdale, Ariz. "Very often, people obtain temporary relief by shaking the hand or rubbing it, causing the numbness and tingling to go away."
CTS is treated by wearing a splint at night to reduce waking up or by an injection of cortisone to reduce swelling. If these measures are not successful, carpal tunnel release surgery, which sections the tough transverse carpal ligament and relieves pressure on the median nerve, may be performed.
moo
Here's a URL link to the article I just posted:
l
http://www.mayo.edu/comm/mcs/news/news_1633.htm
moo
for example, with hypnotism you can cause someone to experience and displayed the most amazing and diverse display of medical symptoms, all of which when examined by a doctor would be completely convincing.
Under such a situation, you could even have surgury ordered. But since the original cause would have been a hypnotic session, the symptoms would always return.
I do not recommend this as a personal experiment.
Under such a situation, the symptoms would be drastically real, regardless of the source. The problem is, of course, if you say to some one that it is "all in their mind" that the immediate reaction is that it is not real, that it is a fantasy. What that critic would need would be to live with a hynotically induced headache or toothache for a few days. This would be convincing as far was how much a fantasy it is. It would, of course, be under-helpful to criticise the person all along that they were imagining it all. The pain is real.
What all this seems to indicate is that there are multiple causes for the set of symptoms for Carpal Tunnel. And that mental conditions can contribute to the medical condition
and that the medical condition is quite quite real. Of course, do they know what it really is?
The list of hysterical diseases in the article is fascinating, but does not make even those conditions less real. Mis-diagnosed, maybe, but still real.
Of course, how are they going to treat this? just shout at everyone that they are hoaxing?
feh.
Check out the Vinny the Vampire comic strip
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
I started using computers around age 9/10 (a ZX81). Through the years I've progressed from machine to machine, and now it's my job - I'm a consultant. In the past few years I had been more careful about workstation setup (I helped do a workstation assesment at a 500 user site), but prior to this it was all sorts of fucked postures and ways of typing.
/. very much now, so it's unlikely that I'll see any replies to this post - I just thought it might be useful to someone.
Until just over 3 months ago, I'd never had a single problem - not even so much as a twitch, no aches, weird pains, numbness - NOTHING. Then one night my right arm just felt 'tense'. By morning it was mostly unusable and I couldn't comfortably lift a can of coke. Typing for greater than about 60 seconds led to severe pins+needles and burning pain in my lower arms and wrist, lasting for hours, calming back down to its normal ache after. I had to stop driving the car, I couldn't carry groceries or do the dishes, turning the front door key in the lock hurt. The left arm followed a few days later. I had to leave the contract I was on and go into sick leave, after being given some very good advice by a friend who has been in recovery now for 2 years. He suffers from Carpel Tunnel, but mine appears to be a different kind of RSI (note - in the UK this has now been renamed to "Overuse Syndrome" - I can see insurance companies using this definition to avoid claims...).
3 months on, and I can do 'about' an hour a day (it varies), and have had to give up gaming more or less entirely - thankfully they do recover after about 20 minutes now. I can't write on paper either because it causes the same problems, even channel surfing for about the same time will cause it to fire up again. Slowly, they ARE getting better, but that's with physiotherapy sessions (ultrasound, laser, massage) twice weekly , flexing exercises, and lots and lots of time to reflect at home, while I'm bored out of my skull. I don't know when I'll be truly able to work full time again.
I'd like the above to be advice for all you non sufferers. It doesn't always build up over time with noticable symtoms, it can just attack all in one go and without warning. If you get ANY issues at all that 'feel' more serious than just a tired wrist, for god sake SEE A DOCTOR and stop doing whatever causes it IMMEDIATELY. You might just end up with a week or so to recover. You might like me have a recovery time of months (if ever in terms of intensive working), you might end up like my friend with your arms in plastercast and unable to work without speech recognition software for a few years, or you might never recover to a usable level at all. It's career threatening, and the *really* scary thing is you might not get a warning. If I'd known how serious and real forms of RSI can be - I'd have found something else to do.
I'm afraid I don't read
james
--
--
ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!
I'm borrowing my husband's name and email (forgive me!) A few years ago, I had RSI injuries which may or may not have been carpal tunnel. I had pain in the center of bottom of my palms and had tendonitis near my elbow, where you feel tendons move when you move your fingers. I do a lot of data entry. It was definitely painful! There were days I couldn't even turn the page of a magazine, it hurt so bad! What caused this? Stress. I had a horrible supervisor and the stress manifested itself in my hands and forearms. Gee, when that supervisor left, I slowly got better. Now, the pain is sometimes there, usually when I'm under stress again. Caused by hysteria? Maybe it was caused by *my* hysteria when under stress. Carpal tunnel is not new. My aunt was a typist for years and had to have carpal tunnel surgery in 1980. And as for chemical sensitivity being the latest "fad" illness, well, my sister-in-law has had it since the early 1970's. She almost died from it a couple of times. So, no, chemical sensitivity has probably always been there. Doctors just didn't know what was really wrong and people were mis-diagnosed as having other illnesses.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts."
Personally, I have never found any long term effect from keyboarding. A mouse, on the other hand, (er, the right hand) was making my right wrist sore for longer and longer periods and was actually causing numbness if I had an intensive day of mousing. I switched to a trackball and the problem went away for the most part.
I also have terrible computer chair posture, and suffer no back problems, despite sitting at a desk all day for many years. Yet I find "proper" posture uncomfortable for more than 5 minutes at a time.
I think that between 'head games' and such great differences in people's reactions to various harsh conditions, CTS is a pretty hard beast to nail down in terms of causes.
W9x:Thanks for the make-work project Bill.
Sounds like you have same screwed up PT (physical therapist that I had). I had tendonitis that took a year and a half to get over. It should have taken a month or two tops: I wasn't given any anti-inflamatories (which help big time) and was told to use cold. Cold is great right after you have overdone it, but you need to increase blood flow for it to heal.
I finally found an artical in keyboard magazine.
An engineer who ran for Congress. http://herbrobinson.us
I got tendonitis from typing on an early 80's vintage computer terminal for a large number of 12 hour days with bad posture. I had it in the extensors; so, it was not carpal tunnel (actually, piano players are the ones who usually get carpal tunnel -- and that's not new, it's a time honorred career killer for musicians).
It took me a year and a half to recover, and I later learned that the physical therapist who was taking care of me completely screwed up. One should be using cold initially, in conjunction with anti-inflamtories (Naproxen is really good) to bring the swelling down. Once the swelling is down, you need warmth to increase blood flow so it can heal (and keep taking the anti-inflamatories).
Once I got over it, I got a wrist support to keep my hands in the right position and haven't had a problem since. I've come close a few times, but I know what it feels like when you are getting close and I know enough to stop. Of course, my piano playing has never been quite the same, but I get by...
With the newer keyboards, the wrist supports no longer seem to be necessary. I think it's quite possible that better keyboard design has made the situation a lot better. The mouse bothers me some, now, but changing posture seems to work for me...
An engineer who ran for Congress. http://herbrobinson.us
"I'd like to see Dr. Shorter tell my wife that the pain is all in her head. You'd have to surgically remove her hands from his throat." There's no way she'd be able to get her hands around his neck if she had any real pain. Faker
The problem is that everybody thinks RSI=Carpal Tunnel. Even general practitioner doctors! RSI=9 diffrent conditions including Tendonitis, Tennis Elbow, Pinched Sholder Nerve. My story is almost exactally the same as the woman mentioned in the story (but I can't type that fast). If you get testing and treatment for Carpal Tunnel (in the palm of your hand) when you can have the EXACT SAME SYMPTOMS WITH TENDONITIS OF THE WRIST. As for the problems "DISAPPEARING" most of the RSIs will heal slowly if you do the following R.I.C.E. R = Rest I = Ice C = Compress E = Elevate RSIs may still heal with only part of RICE but will take much longer. But most important, an RSI is telling you that, like in the old joke, if it hurts, you don't do that! So TAKE BREAKES, EXERSIZE YOUR HANDS, AND REMEMBER EVERYONS HANDS ARE DIFFRENT, AND WHAT IS ERGONOMIC FOR ONE PERSON ISN'T NECCISARILY ERGONOMIC FOR ANOTHER!
Funny, same thing for me: I'm 29, been typing on computers since I was 10. Never had a problem 'till a year ago. First I noticed my wrists hurt from being turned in with normal keyboards. Then I switched to MS ergo. Shortly after, in between my finger started to hurt really bad b/c of longer reach to get to some keys. Now my company gave me a Goldtouch keyboard, and I keep it dialed out to ~30 horizontal AND vertical. It looks wacky, but damned if my fingers/wrists feel way better.
;)
But sadly, I think it's just old age.
---
https://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
I am coming to believe that after many years of working in the computer field, working on an oil rig, or on a deep-sea trawler in the north Atlantic might be a bit safer. The dangers are understood, the safty regulations are in place and injuries are tangible.
I'd bet the jobs that caused the carpel tunnel syndrome have mysteriously "gone away" as well.
It'll help my case against the keyboard industry when I sue them. Let's learn from the tobacco lawsuits -- when They try cover up something harmful, your eyeballs shoult turn to dollar signs.
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
(I'm no doctor, standard disclaimers apply)
:)
According to motrin.com, ibuprofen is easier on the stomach than aspirin-- the key is to take any stomach irritating medicine with milk or food. But I've never experienced any stomach pain that I can associate with ibuprofen, in spite of the fact that I often take 800 to 1000 mg of ibuprofen for headache and neck pain-- and I do not have a strong stomach, nor do I usually take it with food or milk. YMMV.
I do not have a signature
Of all the drugs in the world, I've never before worried if I was abusing ibuprofen. :)
In my case, I consider 800 mg to be a normal dose. I'm very resistant to pain medicines of all types (or overly sensitive to pain). Even the dentist has to give me a larger than normal dose of novocaine.
I do not have a signature
Now that would give you RSI!
sulli
RTFJ.
Definitely some people claim RSI to make their jobs easier unfairly, but I can assure you that this shit is real.
So: Don't overwork your hands, you won't get any new ones!
sulli
RTFJ.
Yep. Naproxyn sodium (Aleve), ibuprofen and aspirin are all anti-inflamatories and have similar effects and side effects. Definitely good first treatment for tendonitis. (Using naproxyn sodium for tendonitis in my shoulder at the moment).
Acetominaphen isn't an anti-inflamatory at all as far as I know.
Well actually capsasin is not cure for the CTS
but a rememdy for pain. Apparently pepers exaust
some chemicals in nerve tissue, so they do
not transmit pain anymore. Injury it still there,
apparently reported to be very effective painkiller
for CTS just look for 'capsazin' on google.
p.
First important point: Not all repetetive strain is CTS. I cannot stress this enough. True CTS involves compression of the median nerve through the carpal tunnel which can be measured in changes in nerve conduction velocity and drops in the peak of the compound action potential. Subjectively this is felt not only as pain but as a loss of sensation and strength in specific fingers supplied by the median nerve(humb, first and middle, plus part of the ring).
Second important point: True CTS often doesn't go away. I finally complained to my doctor when after an 8 week absence from the keyboard and other laboratory techniques that gave me wrist pain the problems came back just as bad, the first day back in the lab.
Third important point: Not everyone can or will get CTS. Anatomy matters, as do other activities. Just because one person doesn't get it, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all.
I'd love to be able to feel my hands all the time, but I can't. Same with opening jars.
well stop doing that. the reason repetitive stress syndrome is on the wane is simple, people have changed their habits, and started using more ergonomic equipment. because therapy works doesn't mean the disease never existed. their example of the lady who was in so much pain that she had to stop typing for 4 years is silly, she stopped typing, so yes the pain went away, as if it was never there. how long did she type before it developed? given her rated typing speed, a long time, so it will take a long time before it shows up again, assuming she hasn't improved the way she works, but less time than it did the first time. if canada continues to deny the existence of repetitive stress syndrome then they'll probably have a rise in cases in a few years.
It seems to me that there is a lot of confusion about RSI...
I think that anyone that has used a keyboard for a serious amount of time has noticed those angry red areas that tend to show up on one's wrists, especially after a long day of typing.
This is NOT to be confused with ACTUAL repetitive strain injuries! This is like the difference between getting a headache, and having migranes...
"If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards."
As a sufferer of a wrist aggravation I would have to guess that many of these types of problems are miss-diagnosed.
One morning I woke up and my thumb was almost completely numb. I went to see a doctor and one of the first questions he asked was what I did for a living. After I told him I was an IT professional the diagnosis period ended even though all the doctor did was a few reflex type tests. He told me to wear a brace when I slept and it would go away which it did, but I have often wondered if that was really the problem. I have problems with my mouse hand from time to time but not the other.
I think many people place way too much faith in the opinion of doctors. It's true I could have gone for a second opinion but I figured I would get more of the same.
Finally someone is not afraid to tell the truth.
... mass hysteria, I tell you.
... this pain I must think I feel is...just a hoax. The fact that sometimes it gets so bad I can't even hold a pair of chopsticks properly ... hoax. The fact that I sometimes wake up at night with my hands - especially the right, mousing, hand - feeling numb, it's ... a hoax.
This concert pianist friend of mine, whom I, literarily, JUST visited in the hospital, had surgery for the second time - different hand - for what she thought was RSI. It was becoming increasingly difficult for her to play through a whole concert, not to mention that she was unable to practice more than four or five hours a day. So, it must be that she was just tired of traveling around the world, staying at nice hotels, and mixing with people you and I only see on TV...essentially life a life most of us only dream about. Hoax, I tell you.
And the fact that there were three other people in the same room who also had surgery for the same reason
And myself
Yah, that's the ticket. It's all a hoax, I tell you.
"Consistency is contrary to nature, contrary to life. The only completely consistent people are the dead." A. Huxley
Sure, my pain "just went away"...
After I quit working on the Macintosh keyboards, the puck mouse, and the picnic table "desk" that was up way too high.
Shooting pains are not just imagined. I couldn't write at home because my hand would freak at the slightest exertion of effort. My life is code and paper is my primary resource. I was crippled while working with the Macs. (OS X Server, incidentally, not that the OS matters too much, save with respect to how fast it lets you set your mouse speed.)
This reminds me of an experience with a coworker. He, a staunch republican, noted just how phony environmentalist concerns were. "A while ago, everyone was complaining about how CFC's would destroy the world by now. But see? Everything is perfectly fine." I said, "Well, yah; That's because you are forbidden to produce CFC's now, save in a few developing countries who's time is almost up." I suspect the same sort of thing going on here. We've learned to work around Carpal Tunnel, so well, that people think it's just a myth.
I had pain in both arms which got so bad I could not type a single line without pain. Although I argued with the doctor, I was diagnosed with Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. Basically, if your arms hurt and you work with computers, many doctors will diagnose carpal tunnel. I didn't agree with the diagnosis, and saw 3 other doctors, each of whom gave a different diagnosis and a different prescription. After a year and a half of no improvement, I gave in and had a carpal tunnel release surgery, which did not help in the slightest. Having thus proved to the doctors that I didn't have carpal tunnel syndrome, I began physical therapy (stretching, strengthening, and massage) which ultimately fixed me enough to the point where I can work and type this message. I still have pain every day and have to constantly stretch/etc to maintain my ability to work.
Just keep in mind if you have some of the symptoms for CTS that the median nerve goes through a lot of other areas besides the carpal tunnel where it might be impinged (eg the chest, armpit, at the elbow, etc.)
See the page in my sig for more info about my experience.
This is exactly the problem that the article is addressing. People are so defensive that they refuse to believe that any pain could be caused by faulty signals in their brain instead of physical injury. Perhaps your wife's pain is from damage to her body, perhaps not. But being completely unwilling to even consider that the pain might be psychological is just ignorant and stubborn and could potentially cut off possibilities for relief of the pain. I mean this as no offense to you or your wife, as the attitude is very common, but it is an attitude that must be combatted.
I wish that my inferiority complex were as good as yours.
-RenderHead
The article is very clear about it I am afraid, you are mad, loopers, round the twist, insane, cuckoo and utterly bonkers. It is best for all concerned if you learn to live with it and visit a psychiatrist.
Slashdot: Proof that a million monkeys at a million typewriters can create a masterpiece
I was out stacking hay in my barn last night (no, really, I was!) and today my shoulders were a little sore. That's what a computer guy gets for doing physical labor, but I'm not going out saying I have hay-bailing shoulder syndrome. I simply overworked myself. Now, it would be possible to overwork myself to the point of doing damage, but just because there's a little pain doesn't mean that any real, permanent damage has been done. Same with CTS. Pain in the wrists doesn't mean you have carperal tunnel syndrome. That doesn't mean that CTS doesn't exist. But I think a lot of ergo companies made a lot of money selling ergo stuff that they wouldn't have been able to sell without all the hype, or as the article put it, "hysteria".
I know plenty of painful typists complete with wrist guards and wincing who probably won't agree that their symptoms aren't genuine. The article doesn't claim that the symptoms aren't genuine, just that they might not have a physical cause.
I'm glad that that pain in my wrist is not for real. I can feel it going away already... If it was not for this article, I would still think I am in pain. :)
Just have to add my experience here...
When I first started working in the computer field, 3 years ago, (I am 25) I had major problems after the first few months of constant mousing. I would wake up in the middle of the night with numb fingers and hands, and could feel scratching in my wrists.
I switched to left handed mousing for about 3 months, and then eventually back to right. I'm still mousing and typing all day everyday, but have not had any problems since the first incident...
I don't think Carpal Tunnel is a hoax, however I do think it's been way over used. I think for one thing that a number of people claiming carpal tunnel are just going after benefits, and that the massive number of people claiming injury are probably are fine. They might even believe it, one of those mind over matter things. I've felt pain at times, nothing bad mind you, but enough that I'm not willing to discount everyone.
The other thing I will say is that in MOST (not all, but most) of the cases of Carpal Tunnel I've seen, the people who get it and talk about it the most are people who need to get out more! And by get out more I mean walk further than from the computer to the mcdonalds dinner. If you're unhealthy and out of shape in general, it should come as no surprise that sitting around and using computers all day isn't going to make you a physically better peerson.
Scott
I used to think that it was all a concoction by malingerers, until I got it.
Real or imagined, the sypmtoms disappear after surgery. The pain is real, the disease is real.
- - - If the sun is a star, why can't I see it at night?
I'm reminded of a recent New York Times article about efforts to improve marital stability in the Bible Belt. I quote:
Besides Sara, now 17, Mark and Cathryn Hinderliter have a daughter, Greta, who is 3. The couple agree that their marriage is working. Still, they have problems, and Ms. Hinderliter has insisted on working them out in sessions with a marriage counselor, who is also an evangelical Christian.
''How do you do this right?'' she said. ''Well, basically, I think you just communicate until your knuckles bleed.''
Unsettling MOTD at my ISP.
Yes, but the article uses "carpal tunnel syndrome" and "RSI" interchangeably, as though one is the entirety of the other. Let's say that keyboard use has no effect on carpal tunnel syndrome. I don't see where that supports a headline of "Repetitive stress pain was just 'hysteria'" except for anecdotal stements from Shorter like "The whole RSI thing has sort of evaporated in a cloud of smoke." (Can we see some numbers on that?) To me, it seems entirely consistent with the results here that keyboard use does cause the kind of injuries popularly called "carpal tunnel"; but not true carpal tunnel syndrome.
Hell, Shorter even says "[people should not abandon their expensive office chairs and keyboard trays, because many office workers report having neck, arm and upper back pain, even if they do not have carpal tunnel syndrome.] I think having a properly set up work station and so forth is still very important."
Incidentally (and this also applies to the AC who responded), I am a scientist, I understand the difference between anecdotes and statistically valid samples and I don't claim that my wife's opinions are proof of anything. But Shorter strikes me as similar to the people who claim that soft tissue pain is the result of fibromyalgia, TMJ, sexual abuse or whatever: his career is psychosomatic pain and here's a diffuse condition that he can claim to explain. My job is to read assertions and try to poke holes in them. (That's probably why 90% of my Slashdot posts are argumnetative challenges to the posted article.)
Unsettling MOTD at my ISP.
On the other hand, what struck me about the article was the emphasis on carpal tunnel syndrome. My impression is that very few people have that. The term is used as shorthand for RSI injuries in general, much as people talk about having "the flu" when they get a cold. Tendonitis is far more common, in my experience -- I'd like to have seen that discussed in this context.
Unsettling MOTD at my ISP.
When every I'm "viewing" the internet, my right hand and fore arm can get quite sore from over use. Though, I'm not completly sure its Carpol Tunnel or just an "over active imagination".
Burn Hollywood Burn
Yep, Advil and Motrin are just Ibuprofin. 3 to 4 pills (200mg ea) is equal to a perscription dose. This is helpful to know, as many of my trips to the doctor about back and shoulder pain resulted in the standard advice: "rest, ice and lots of Ibuprofin" Now I know to just treat myself unless it is something serious.
A Mayo Clinic study will be published tomorrow with a headline saying something like "CTS not found in computer users".
Something decidedly fishy is going on here. The raw numbers for the study are 250 users, none of whom ever used a computer for more than 7 hours a day! And these are supposedly heavy users?
Whoever said follow the money hit it dead on. Somebody's trying to sell us an idea here...
I want the kind that guy in Ghost in the Shell had! With the pop-out fingers that became two each...man could he type!!! :)
LEXX
"Gold still represents the ultimate form of payment in the world." - Alan Greenspan, 1999
Carpal tunnel is a specific and rather rare (among keyboard users) instance of repetitive strain injury, and one can only hope the interchangeable use throughout the article comes from the writer, not the researchers. No doubt other posters are disassembling the various logical departures in this article, so I'll restrict myself to this one: there's an inconsistency and logical break in mentioning carpal tunnel syndrome in the same damning breath as "imaginary" diseases which cause the suffere to become maniacally obsessed with the volume and texture of their semen discharges", while admitting that the former is a genuine condition seen in meat packers. "Hysterical illnesses exist" does not support "RSI claimants are hysterical." I also find it curious science to say that because a condition went away, it must have been hysterical. What about rest, ergonomics, or removal from the conditions under which it was incurred? If I were to use the same journalistic standard, I would note that claiming a famous illness is hysterical could do much to raise the profile and lecture circuit fees of a medical historian such as Dr. Edward Shorter. But though true, that would hardly be fair, would it? Of course, if my TOS goes away tomorrow, I'll owe these guys a big apology.
is this.....is this for REAL?
great comedy company.
Find yourself a good chiropractor. Mine has actually been able to correct the onsluaght of Carpal Tunnel. As he explained to me, the carpal tunnel is an arch similar in nature to those constructed by the Romans. Just like the Roman arches, the carpal tunnel arch has a keystone/keybone. When doing repetetive motion, one can knock or wedge the "keystone" out of place. The body then attempts to compensate by building tissue. This results in an extended period of pain.
Luckily, after he moves the "keystone" back into place thus restoring free movement of the carpal tendons, the pain seems to go away. If you are in the SF/East Bay area, send me an email at jbanes@techie.com and I'll get you my chiropractor's info.
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
Both my parents have it,
my dad is worse.
He is a landscaper, and has been using Shovels, Rakes, etc for most of his career.
It hasn't flaired up on him in a whole, but when it did, he couldn't use his hands to grip anything at all. Very painful stuff.
What to do if you have it is a simple exercise.
1. Hold your arms out straight, palms up
2. bend your hands towards the ground, and pull your arms towards your head.
That will help out a lot, its why my dad hasn't had it lately.
Hoax or not, I know my S*#$ hurts from time to time, but I dont know if its all keyboard involved.
*squirt*
EOU
Even though I am a techie who suffers from CTS, I can confirm that meat packers in particular are subject to RSI. Living in Northwest Texas, I reside within commuting distance of one of the largest beef-packing factories in the nation and know many people who work there. Any one 'on the cutting line' who does not eventually complain about arm, wrist, and hand pains from repetive use of electric knives and saws is an oddity.
Of course, with that many elective knives and saws, quite a few of these people also complain of missing appendages and nightmares about body parts in the ground beef...
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
Tell that to the 2 inch scars on my fathers hands he got from carpel tunnel surgery.
Okay, i will avoid the WAY TOO EASY crack on "Canadian Officials", and simply point to the fact that many people, especially those responsible for large chunks of digital life as we know it, including Richar Stallman, emacs guru, and Jamie Zawinsky, mozilla guru, suffer from something, whatever you want to call it. You should really take a look at Jamie Zawinski's excellent page dealing with this fact, and only expect it to get more and more important as we progress into the age where people are typing starting at age 5.
I had RSI for several months a year or so back. After seeing three doctors, none of whom could really help, and a masseuse, who helped tremendously, I figured out that my pain was basically stress related. I suppose you could call that "hysteria". No less painful for that. At one point I could barely move my right arm well enough to drive. The pain had crept up my forearm, into my bicep, and up into my shoulder, and was severe enough that I was quite reluctant to move. I wore braces, gobbled ibuprofen, got a new mouse and keyboard, exercises, posture training, the usual regimen. It took getting away from the medical establishment to get better.
As always I want to recommend the books of John Sarno. He writes specifically on back pain, but I found his ideas very helpful. Mind Over Back Pain can probably be found at your public library.
Obviously there are lots of testimonies about surgery, better ergonomics, stretching, other stuff fixing RSI as well. My brother had some type of RSI that went away with a cortisone shot. I'm not knocking other treatments, or the idea that RSI is sometimes a purely physical problem. But if you have gone to a lot of doctors and gotten no relief, I'd recommend either checking out Sarno's books, or going to an experienced masseuse and getting a deep tissue BACK massage. You might end up rethinking your RSI.
Matt
As best I can tell after reading the National Post article, the reporter was to some extent sensationalising what is a very simple fact: injury often leads to pain, but injury does not exactly equal pain. What might have saved the article from blistering critiques (but garnered far less readership) would have been to clearly differentiate injury and pain, terms which the medical profession clearly distinguish from each other. Injury = physical, objectively measurable damage Pain = distressful or unpleasant sensation or experience
This is the new fad sweeping the Canadian government and prettymuch all unionized Canadian employees.
Apparently, if your job stresses you out, you deserve a couple of months off to alleviate the problem.
Whatcha doooo with those rollin' papers?
Make doooooobieees?
Carpal tunnel, IMO, is one of those ailments largely invented by the ambulance chasing plantiffs lawyers.
I've never known anyone to have it, and I've worked with computers and people who work with and on computers for 9 years now.
I'm 29. I've had a computer ever since I was 8 years old (Commodore Vic-20). I've spent an EXCESSIVE amount of time using standard keyboards, many MANY hours a day, throught childhood, adolescence, and adulthood. No evidence of carpal tunnel for me. Surely, if it were to affect anyone, it would be me.
I've used nothing but standard QWERTY keyboards, I never cared for the strange "ergonomic" Microsoft keyboard or it's many clones, as I don't care to abandon 20 years of typing expertise and re-learn a skill that is vital to my job and recreation.
IMO, as the article implied, RSI is nothing more than a "fad" condition that lawyers and "labor groups" have used as a way to go after wallets.
=== The price of freedom is eternal vigilance
And besides, they don't call it work b/c it's fun. I've never had a job that didn't entail some kind of nagging discomfort.
Not that I'm denying there are people with legitimate complaints; rather, I'd think that anything you do forty hours a week is probably going to give you some kind of trouble, be it sore feet, back pain, toe rot, sunburn, dishpan hands, or unsatisfying BMs. We're born to trouble as the sparks fly upwards, folks. It's the human condition.
The same thing can easily happen with RSI. You complain your arm is numb and your wrist is sore. The doctor asks you if you use a computer or type and you answer affirmatively. You're diagnosed as having RSI. RSI becomes a catch-all for people with sore joints who use computers.
Chris Kuivenhoven is a thief, beware
Obviously we all see the filthy Lucire joke, so here I decided to preempt it to remind you that as stated above, this is how important laws get neutered or skipped for public health care by hiring some yokel to provide FUD. If you're not angry that you've been scammed and unwilling to go up the ladder of crooks, I can say nothing else. When the apathetic sheep stop getting in the way, the real people can get something done.
"Face it, a nation that maintains a 72% approval rating on George W. Bush is a nation with a very loose grip on reality.
I have had two motion related problems over the years, one in the jaw (TMJ) and one in the knee with no fancy name. In both cases I identified the motion which was the cause of the problem and stopped doing it.
I can also move my fingers on the keyboard in such a way as to cause sharp stinging pains. I suggest anyone suffering from it, learn to more your fingers in a way which does not cause those problems.
As to its reality, in the old days there were typing pools, nothing but typing all day, and CTS was unheardof. If any programmer types that much he needs be inducted into some Hall of Fame or needs to use much shorter variable names.
I remember the one time I took some Motrin for a headache. Within about 5 minutes I vomited out the entire contents of my stomach...
Tim
Omnia vestra castrorum habetur nobis.
I think it's worth noting that this article cuts a very big swath through a complicated issue without much apparent justification. The evidence that there's "no such thing" as SRIs is basically anectdotal, with the exception of the one rather small and unscientific study at Mayo. I think it's a little irresponsible to then go and attribute it all to "hysteria." Yes, some impressive names and titles express the same opinion. But this is not real data, not real science. On the other hand, I have witnessed first hand, with conditions from tinnitis to panic attacks, how incredibly resistant people are to the idea that their ailments stem from their neorological physiology, rather than some more esoteric doohickey in the elbow, ear or heart. So all of you writing in to say "it is TOO real!" aren't demonstrating anything either.
It Is the Nature of Information to Transgress Artificial Boundaries
I find this question a little silly since the effects of RSIs can be measured quantifiably. I actually don't have carpal tunnel (gasp), but I do have ulnar entrapment, which is the same thing on a different nerve. I was tested for it, and the medical test involves measuring a certain length on your arm and sending currents through the nerve to see how well it works. The output is a numerical measurement of how well/poorly your nerve is working. Am I missing something here? Sure, there are fakers who haven't been tested, but faking the RSI nerve tests seems almost as difficult/absurd as faking an MRI or EEG. Or am I missing something here?
That would explain why RSI is not a very big deal in Lithuania (see my previous post #19): we do not have a very developed law system that would allow to make lawsuits, so, there is no incentive to pretend that RSI is a widespread thing.
Well, i do not know what the fuss was about. It seems that the only people that were worried with this kind of thing came from developed countries, and here in Lithuania noone seems to care. I don't even know if there is a direct translation for RSI in Lithuanian. Maybe it is just because we have other more important problems.
I don't think it's a hoax. It affects violists/violinists/cellists and other musicians as well as typists and programmers. the real question is 'does carpal tunnel syndrome really affect people who type alot'. -TheNoodle
It does NOT say that Carpel Tunnel Syndrom does not exist. It says that Carpel Tunnel Syndrom is not caused by RSI.
In fact, it says that on average, 10% of the population has it at any given time, irregardless of whether they use a computer.
Many people seem to be posting "I know someone with RSI and their pain is real". The article agrees that their pain is probably real, but says that RSI is not the cause, and therefore ergonomics may not be the answer.
I get the feeling reading this article that very little scientific study has gone into all this, and now that real results are becoming available, it is starting to look like a bunch of misinformed hype.
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The internet is the greatest source of biased information in the history of mankind.
I'm sure there are legitimate cases, but not nearly as many as have been claimed.
I'm also sure that the makers of those stupid (IMHO) split keyboards will tell anyone who feels the slightest twinge that they have RSI.
Certain positions strain my wrists and hands; certain other positions don't.
Given that I can spend upwards of 100 hours a week on a keyboard, it's obvious I spend most of that time in positions that don't.
Some people may not be able to find such positions on available hardware and workspaces. OSHA rules meant to encourage employers to correct that problem were, predictably, turfed by the current administration.
Should everyone pay for that in terms of higher keyboard prices to cover lawsuits? I don't think we do. Fry's Electronics in San Jose has a big stack of keyboards priced at $2.99 each. (Ironically, they had the best sound and feel of any of the dozen models on the shelf; except the Enter key, which clanked like a Daihatsu trunk lid...)
The two phrases that best describe this issue are "IANAL" and "YMMV".
--Blair
Ms. Thiverge tried everything she could to fix it: wrist bands, steroids, diuretic pills and physiotherapy. Her employers spent $4,500 on a microphone device so she could dictate into the computer.
What did they do? Build a recording studio? I'd like to see that microphone.
Too busy staying alive... ~ R.A.
I guess the Y2K bug was a hoax too, since there wasn't any apocolypse. Not even a downed power plant or a stock market crash.
A very profitable hoax, though! Oh, to know COBOL...
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One of my best friends is a sports/medicine massage therapist. He works specifically with rehab patients. I thought I was going to need surgery cause my wrists hurt so bad. He said "forget that let me work on you". He worked on my chest/arms/wrists/neck for about 1 hour and the pain was completely gone. The deep tissue stuff he did to me hurt pretty bad while he was doing it. But I didn't feel any pain for 2 months after that. Anytime it hurts too much now, I just have him work on me for a while. Anyone with carpal tunnel should go to a deep tissue specalist and see if they can help. It sure beats surgery...
RSI is very real, unfortunately. A friend of mine who types a lot had a very bad case of it - could not use his hands virtually at all for months without intense pain, tendons were swollen, and was almost a year on a wrist brace before it went away completely. This is a programmer who loves to write code, not a poor data-entry guy so he could take breaks, but the RSI came on so quickly there wasn't a thing he could do to mitigate it. Personally speaking, I sometimes stress my fingers (being a programmer and a fast typist), and ocassionally I'll do something that hurts the rest of the day, but that is *NOT* RSI. RSI is serious stuff. -Matt
-Matt
I get wrist pains all the time and am thinking of suing Miscro$oft one of these days. Constantly making me press the ctrl-alt-del button unnecessarily is absolutely uncalled for!
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Did you just fart? Or do you always smell like that?
eTrade SUCKS
Yes, and I should clarify the results, which will explain my use of a wrist-wrest. My carpal tunnel is relatively mild, compared to joint pain that's about 85% beginning arthritis, and 15% non-carpal-tunnel RSI. My doctor basically told me that if using a wrist rest reduces the pain in my joints, it's an acceptable evil despite the increased risk of making my CTS worse. Basically, my wrists, hands, and all associated joints are doomed anyway, in the long run. Hence my desire for replacements someday. ;)
So to sum up, yes I have been diagnosed, by a general practicioner at least; we both agreed it wasn't necessary to seek a specialist at this point. And yes, I know about the wrist-rest not necessarily being helpful for my CTS, but it helps everything else.
- Turq - "That's TRON, he fights for the users."
Speaking as a sufferer of carpal tunnel and other repetitive-stress-injuries, aggravated by a genetic predisposition to arthritis, RSIs are -not- a hoax. However, for every one true RSI sufferer, there're probably a dozen fakers who smell a big lawsuit/government check, and claim mysterious pains here and there. These cases up and disappear whenever someone bothers to scruntinize them.. "What? See a doctor? Oh, I, uh, feel much better now. My wrists have healed! It's a miracle!". Often, real RSI sufferers are reluctant to seek the help that goes along with a government check. We love our machines too much. I for one, suffer through the aches, stiff joints, numbness, and keep a-typin. I use a wristwrest and try to keep my wrists/arms/hands at happy 90 degree angles like in those oh-so-nifty ergo diagrams, and I may as well own stock in Bayer for all the asprin I consume. And one day, when the arthritis sets in full force, I hope somebody's perfected cybernetics to the point I can buy new hands from Wal Mart. ;)
- Turq - "That's TRON, he fights for the users."
I'm not sure why I'm writing this, it's obviously not because it's gonna be read (after 439 posts), let alone to gain some Karma. ;o))
/. which usually seems to take the side of the underdog publish such an un-thoughtful article.
Anywho, this kind of press makes me so mad. What the hell kind of superiorism could one possibly be possessed by to call someone else's misery a hoax?
I mean, questioning something is one thing but to insinuate that it's an outright lie? It's sad to see a site like
The people that have problems between the ears are these freaks that apparently can't handle a stronger opponent to fight than a sick man. Beating the dead, is what it is.
Unfortunately, for those suffering from the symptoms, these illnesses are _real_. Imagine what it's like to be in that position and hear others claim that you are 'faking'.
I hope Dr. Shorter will die a sudden death, and not from some 'curable by positive thinking' disease like cancer. Or he will have a lot of explaining to do.
A few years ago I started to experience wrist and hand pain that I associated with CTS. A programmer friend who had fought that battle some months before suggested that I get a pair of phone books and place them on the desk in front of my keyboard; resting my forearms on them as I typed. It was surprisingly comfortable and within a week or two my pain was gone and has not returned. Cheaper than surgery or custom keyboards. Your mileage may vary. -Coach-
Perhaps the world's greatest tragedy is that ignorance is not impotence.
light at the end of the carpal tunnel.
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The Cap is nigh. Time to get a fresh new account.
What do you qwerty-devoted slashdotters have against dvorak? It just takes a month or two to learn, and your wrists will thank you for the rest of your life!
' , . P Y F G C R L / = \
A O E U I D H T N S -
; Q J K X B M W V Z
Free unix account: freeshell.org
The National Post, the source for this article, is well known as an unashamedly pro-business newspaper. They frequently publish articles which defend existing business practices regardless of their cost - as an example, one of their regular columnists, Terrence Corcoran, is famous for his articles denying the existence of global warming.
In this case, it's likely that the article is intended to reduce the perception of employers' liability for their employees' carpal tunnel injuries, and thereby to dissuade those who are possibly suffering from seeking redress.
Toronto-area transit rider? Rate your ride.
I do not suffer from CTS (but I play someone who does on tv? sorry, mandatory joke 8-). The simple fact is that a neurologist can measure the neurologcal "static" associated with CTS. That means that it can't be "faked" in the presence of an honest and well-informed practitioner. This makes it "not a good candidate" for false claims. The test stings like a bitch if you aren't under general anestetic. A fact that alone could be responsible for the fakers taking a powder.
Factoid #1: There are exercises that can almost completely releive/remove the phenominia if started before the inflamation reaches the point of no return and a good sports-medicine doctor should be able to teach them to you. If you have reached the aforementioned point the exercises *can* bring you back but they are agonizing and so the sufferer usually can't stick to the regimine(sp?)
Factoid #2: The medical community sucks. A family friend (doctor) commited suicide after taking years abbuse from his coleagues in the AMA because he was trying to get general approval for a procedure where the neurologist would be in the opperating room taking measurements durring CTS surgery. Cutting to proceed until, and only until, the "static" was gone. His success rate was near 100%. Operating times were drastically lowered. Nobody had to come back for a second opperation. Virtually no complications. Recovery rates were usually 1/3 the time of the "normal" proceedure. In short it was faster _CHEAPER_ and better.
He was hounded to death.
Frankly there are a lot of things like this happening all around you, medically speaking. If you are male go to your doctor and tell him you have the symptoms of "Fibromyalgia" and you will get dismissed outright. "It only happens to women, men never get it." (and it's not like prostate cancer where there is some gender-unique feature of the body involved). With the predisposition of doctors to their views I wouldn't be surprised if cancer whent away "statistically" if it were declared financially unprofitable, and all those people were suddenly rediagnosed as having an imbalance of green and yellow bile...
Don't get me wrong. I am a great fan of doctors. At least the ones who will pay attention to you and work for you instead of an HMO or otherwise try to keep themselves "up stat". A truely good doctor combined with a good insurance carrier can be a breathtakingly positive and useful experience. If you are poor, uninsured, or not used to standing up to authority to get yourself heard-out your medical experience will, of course, suck.
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Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
--"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
I have been typing awy for 15 years now Without a single problem. Then all the sudden my right wrist started to hurt. I think it was from the mouse. I switched hands and now use my left hand for the mouse. THe right hand still hurt when I typed and bent it a certain way. I did some experiemnts myslef and noticed the condition went away when I got some weights and started to strengthen the Extensors in my right hand....
Really? Hmm, I'd better test it then. Wait, no, NO!!!
I thought as long as you take breaks from typing every 45 minutes or so with a pr0n break, your wrists should be okay. Or at least one of them.
I heard somewhere that the IBM KoM is actually good for you - the feedback from the keys helps you out. I'm in the same boat wrt that, but all i find are Keytronics keyboards (not that they're bad or anything).
Reboot macht Frei.
Just look at the claims -- when Australia stopped paying to treat carpel tunnel syndrome, the number of cases dropped. Imagine that... here we have an injury that makes it very difficult to perform your job. If the health care system covers the treatment, then your employer won't necessarily fire you for your lower productivity, and you have no reason to not get treated. If the health care system doesn't cover the treatment, then your employer notices the lower productivity and fires you, since there is no "real" reason. Then, you are out of work, which means that you are no longer doing the activity that keeps the injury from healing, *and* you don't have the money to pay medical bills that are no longer covered. If you are able to switch to another job that doesn't bring back the problem, then there is no need to go to the doctor, and if you are incapable of getting work, you don't have the money to go to the doctor. Next thing you know, doctors are treating much fewer patients with carpel tunnel syndrome, even though the problem hasn't gone away.
It's just like Reagan's magical drop in the unemployment rate -- they redefined what it means to be unemployed, and next thing you know the unemployment rate dropped literally overnight.
I'm not impressed.
The fact is that repetitive strain injuries are looking to cost insurance companies and employers a lot of money. That means they have a strong incentive to avoid having to pay out. If a few million in bribes can get you out of hundreds of millions of expenses, that's good business.
I have spent the past weekend working on various projects on the computer. Most have involved typing and mousework (Visual Baisc coding, PowerPoint presentations, etc). I feel jabs of pain from my fingertips to my lower forearm if I type for a long time. Has the author ever typed continuously for several hours, over several days? I speak from experience - keyboards CAN hurt you, and I long for the day when alternate technologies (speech recognition) are accurate enough for the masses (and long typing sessions). Also, living in Canada, I know that in almost every article by the National Post there is some sort of pro-buisness right-wing slant. Read their articles with a grain of salt.
I've been on the computer scene for over 20 years now. I'd like to know how did it came to be that "you should place both arms with the wrist resting in front of the keyboard with four fingers on sdfg and four more on hjkl...blah blah blah" and that you have to purchase "wrist rests" and other items.
The way I type I learned naturally - no silly rigid rules. And how do I type? I only use a finger per hand plus the right tumb for the spacebar. That's about it. And I can type almost as fast as an experienced secretary if I put myself into it. (And I can play FPS games with the keyboard, too). I don't mean to say that you should adopt my style, rather, why should you blindly adopt a particular one? All persons are different.
I have never ever been worried or felt anything regarding my wrists. I began to believe the "unnecessity" of "wrist rests" because my previous employer required them - I couldn't stand the damned thing.
I have been a technician for some years now, and I have interacted with a reasonable amount of users, of all kinds. To be honest, I rarely see people with discomforts on the wrists, and I have never seen a serious case.
I think that the "benefit" of the "rigid sdfg-hjkl typing rules" should be reevaluated. Maybe it's not OK for everyone.
i am 21 years old. about three months ago my wrists, fingers, up to my forearms began to hurt excruciatingly. all the time. idle positions, typing positions. i can't lift a bag of groceries without wincing and calling out now. it's real. and it sucks a whole lot. i haven't even written my best stuff yet. i can't use a pencil or pen anymore. i nearly fail finals in school because i begin to abbreviate things to quicken the process. i've yet to go to a doctor, but will be soon. for now i wear proflex by ergodyne on each hand. seems to help a bit, but the pain is still getting worse in idle positions every day. is it carpal tunnel syndrome? i don't know. but it hurts like hell, and i feel devestated that my life may be compromised just because I like to type. i have a feeling those new mouse wheels don't help much either.......
d. Taylor Singletary,
reality technician techra.el
This doctor is a moron. Of course the pain is something that shows up in the brain. That does not mean that the injury is bogus. It's because we have a central nervous system. I'd have thought that such a celebrated researcher of medicine had heard about the central nerveous system. The purpose of that is to send and receive signals to and from the brain. Damaged nerves is just as serious injury as other things. There's many documented examples of excellent piano players and golf players who get the "jips", which is a nerve injury.
I am not buying that this is hysteria. Instead I'd say that many of the common cures to the problem are bogus and snakeoil.
-- Another senseless waste of fine bytes.
I had recently been experiencing something similar to RSI.
As it turns out it was all related to the fact that my arm was having its circulation cut off, due to the fact that i was pinning my arm on the edge of my desk.
Anyhow, merely adjusting my arm position solved the issue. I make sure to place the keyboard as close to the edge as possible so as to not "pin" my wrist on the edge.
I've never really had any persistent issues with pain in my wrist, I also consider myself an avid gamer.
I had carpal for about three weeks. Numb as all hell in the left hand (the WASD hand). Came from extended NOLF sessions. Inflammation went down on its own. I'm sure there are worse cases than mine, however.
AD: what's so unpleasant about being drunk?
all that stuff about going blind isn't true either?
I would beat the living daylights out of you for such a retarted comment, but my hands hurt too much.... ouch.
D/\ Gooberguy
Karma: Meh (Mostly from meh.)
My right wrist gets store, mostly from using the mouse. Anybody's thumbs get sore from playing video games too long. You get sore. But like the article says, that doesn't mean it's an injury or medical condition.
I have a suspision that anybody wearing braces on their wrists and taking pain killers might not have tried the most common sense approach to soothing their pain: doing something else. Taking a break. Riding a bike. Anybody wearing a brace without seeing a doctor first is probably causing themselves more harm than good.
Technically, the statement you cite does not contain a double negative, since the two negatives are not in the same clause. It is analogous to the statement, "I didn't say he wasn't here", which is not equivalent to "I did say he was here"; I might, for instance, have made no statement at all concerning the alleged presence or absence of the unnamed gentleman in question.
</NITPICK>
On a more on-topic note, I observe that my wrists perversely didn't start hurting until after I'd read all the comments here...
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#/usr/bin/perl
require 6.0;
sed 's/In Soviet Russia/In NSA America/g' < yakov-smirnoff-jokes.txt
The report asserts that there is no actual carpal tunnel damage it doesn't address the possibility that dozens of other symtoms erroneously called carpal T S don't exist.
Runner sweat cuffs or a gym sock around the wrist works great to. Occasionally I rest my forarm on a 2 liter pepsibottle so my hands don't touch the desk works to.
If your hand hurts away from the desk, wrap it in several layers of alluminium foil or even stick it in a steel waste basket & seal the top with your body.
T R Y I T !
b (owie) u (ouch) l (ah) l (yikes) s (medic!) h (arg) i (doh) t (uuhhhh)
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"i was saying gnu-rd"
R.S.I. is definitely not a hoax. I have suffered the symptoms in the past due to my near-perpetual computer usage. The symptoms can be alleviated in many a fashion. It is best to take a corrective course of action as soon as the symptoms manifest themselves: if you use a computer all day, you should take a few minutes every hour or so to lightly stretch your fingers back the other way, roll your wrists, etc... You will do even better to try hatha yoga, which will further strengthen you wrists and make you more aware of your posture.
Maybe what they are seeing with R.S.I is Mind over Matter, like the case of Dr. Andrew Weil's lifelong allergy to cats being cured by a single dose of L.S.D..
Anyway, the symptoms of R.S.I. come, and the symptoms may go away--Sounds like any other syndrome/disease to me. Why aren't these people calling all other syndromes hoaxes?
"What is the sound of one belly slapping?"
Doesn't it just seem logical that one would develop pain and physical problems from repetitive movements that aren't exactly 'natural' (ie. typing)? I used to pitch for a few years in a baseball league, and developed problems with my elbow, and sometimes my wrist would get sore, does this fall under the same type of idea? I do agree though, that much of the hype over all this is just that, hype. As someone mentioned above, if someone feels pain, the pain is most likely there.
WWJD.... for a Klondike bar?
yes, /. misrepresents the article, but even worse, the actual content of the article is full of quotes that are just plain wrong or misleading. It really sucks because RSI sufferers, like many people who have symptoms of chronic pain, are already misunderstood, and 99% of doctors don't have a clue.
Check out Penny Kome's (hopefully, soon to be published) dispute for some insight on the article's psuedo-facts...
TO the Editor of the National Post;
Re: Repetitive Stress Injury was just "hysteria"
Your article starts with wrong premises, adds inaccuracies, and comes to a fallacious conclusion. RSI never existed? Wrong! Check any Workers Compensation Board annual report. Oh, but you have to look under the proper name: Musculoskeletal Disorders.
Here are a few of your inaccuracies. You quote Dr Dean Louis as saying that "A keyboard never injured anyone." Wrong! I invite you to flip over the keyboard on the next personal computer you see. You will find a warning label there, that says something like, "Continuous use of a keyboard may cause injury."
Similarly, you have got the OSHA ergonomics standard fight backwards. Your story asserts that, "It took organized labour 10 years of lobbying to have the standards written." Wrong! On the contrary, Elizabeth Dole (George Bush's Labor Secretary) enacted the meatpacking ergonomics standards in 1990 and directed OSHA to develop general standards which were brought forward in 1994.
Dr Melzack says that in other parts of the world, RSI is unknown, but he doesn't say where. Strain injuries are recognized as serious occupational hazards in Asia, especially Japan, which had an epidemic in the 1960s.
In Europe, all nations in the European Union now require certain minimum standards to protect computer workers. The UK provides criminal penalties for employers who leave their workers at risk for workplace injuries. And the first year-long, continent-wide occupational health program (which ended October 2000) was about preventing strain injuries.
With the Australian example, you omit the essential fact that the government changed the name from RSI to OOS (Occupational Overuse Syndrome). So it is meaningless to say that the "epidemic....ended when the government ruled it would no longer compensate workers for the condition." The government officially abolished RSI therefore, nobody had it any more.
In 1992, a rueful editorial in the Medical Journal of Australia lamented how eagerly doctors had abandoned their patients: "We are left...with a residue of patients with chronic arm pain related to their work, some of whom are still working reduced hours and some of whom have been off work for months or years and are still in considerable distress."
But the key point, where your story is half-right, is that carpal tunnel syndrome was widely over-diagnosed for many years. Every patient with wrist pain got a CTS diagnosis, and too many of them had unnecessary surgery, which failed to correct their condition. JAMA reported in 1991 that 57 percent of post-op patients complained their symptoms returned within two years.
Contrary to your report, true CTS is not that common. In fact, the most common strain injury is tendinitis, which is still (alas) very much with us. So when Dr Stevens agrees that office workers' "neck, arm and upper back pain" is real, he is acknowledging the reality of strain injuries, or RSI.
We expect the NP to put a political spin on every story, but this is outrageous, even for you. Take the word "hysteria". If the Post bothered to mention that two-thirds of Workers' Comp claims for strain injuries are filed by women, then readers could judge for themselves how politically loaded the "hysteria" label is.
Despite the prestigious persons quoted, your reporter simply does not know what he is writing about, as demonstrated by the fact that he uses "RSI" and "carpal tunnel syndrome" interchangeably. The odd thing is that your story could be read as a tribute to the success of ergonomics, a science which has proved its worth in factories and offices all across the world.
Strain injuries can be excruciatingly painful and profoundly disabling, not to mention extremely expensive. Prevention protects employers and the public purse, as well as workers. That's why Republican administrations keep trying to implement ergonomics regulations. If your editors had made even a token effort towards balanced reporting, you'd know that.
Yours truly,
Penney Kome
Author, Wounded Workers: The Politics of Musculoskeletal Injuries (University
of Toronto Press, 1998) Copyright Penney Kome 2001
I tend to agree it was hysteria. About 5 years ago, I started having pain in my wrists, and was diagnosed with carpal tunnel syndrome. My chiropractor, who is from Japan, did some manipulation of my wrists, then told me to start taking vitamin B6. So I did a little research on B6, and found that food coloring, especially the yellows, will deplete pyridoxine from people's systems, which is linked to tendonitis. I started looking at the ingredients on food, and almost EVERYTHING, even if it is nowhere near the color yellow, has yellow #5 or #6. So with that in mind, I started to avoid foods with food dyes, and took 500mg. of pure B6 once a day, and the carpal symptoms just simply vanished. Whenever I slack off and the pain comes back, I start up with the B6 again.