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Europe Adding RFID Tags to Euro Currency
An EETimes article a few days ago reports that the European Central Bank is planning to add RFID tags to euro bank notes. This would allow each bill to be tracked whenever it is used, and if the chip includes writable memory, to even record its own history.
These bills must be expensive to print, though. One question remains: how does one read the chip? Wireless? Huh... Perhaps this could be used in tracking down counterfiters (sp?). Anyone else think of uses for this?
Everything is mainstream now.
At least maybe we'll no get ecash. If the physical stuff is traceable the primary disadvantage of the elctronic stuff is gone. Not that I have anything to hide ;)
And yes, that's a pretty poor silver lining.
I wonder if they'll declare the currency worthless if you were to tear out the chip (or otherwise fry it - how possible is that?)
Lord Pixel - The cat who walks through walls
A little bigger on the inside than out
It's interesting that they will actually be able to measure the velocity of money which is a key concept in some economic theory...
However I don't think that the government really needs to know where it's money has been... This seems a little intrusive into individuals lives.
--------------------------------- Born Again Bourne Again Believer: New Life, GNU/Linux Be Free!
From the article:
:)
The European Central Bank is working with technology partners on a hush-hush project to embed radio frequency identification tags into the very fibers of euro bank notes by 2005, EE Times has learned.
Hmm. Not very hush-hush anymore, is it
---
"how can the same street intersect with itself? i must be at the nexus of the universe!" - cosmo kramer
Maybe zapping the bills with a tesla coil would help. Would a defective tranceiver still be accepted as legal tender?
A Beowulf cluster of those!
All kidding aside, if you were to microwave RFID'ed Euros, would they become worthless, or just unmarked, as it were?
They could still make fakes.. just have to reverse engineer the "chips" -n- such somehow.. then they could create there own, give it a little history.. and then it would be accepted as a valid bill.. unless they have every bill checked for every transaction to a central database or something.. interesting though...
Invasion of privacy! Waaaaa!
They're going to track us all, it'll be a police state!
"Would it kill you to put down the toilet seat?" -- Maya Angelou
What's in my wallet is my business. If a storeowner, or anyone with the right equipment can read how much money I have in my pocket, that bugs me. Heck, for all I know a well-equipped hacker/mugger will be able to spot targets using them.
people need to hide their vices. therefore they need (untraceable) cash.
once again, porn and drugs will withstand the onslaught of governmental interference.
Not really sure...but since they are telling people about it, I am leaning more towards the former. Now, if this was the US, I would be very suspicious.
the deacon...that's all you need to know for now
One small run in a microwave and the electronics are toast. and until you make the currency required to be rf active at all merchants the idea is stupid.
the ONLY way to remove counterfits and "illegal activities" is to go to a credit only system but then people will find ways around that too.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
The article says they only plan to do this for very large value bills.
When was the last tmie you used anything larger then a $20 that the ATM spits out? Every try and use a $100 bill? You get looked at strangely, they examine the bill, and preaty much assume you're a drug dealer.
Who used big bills rather then a bank tracked way? Yea, I'd want to design a tracking devices in them too if I was in charge.
Besides, criminals are all using the dollar, why change now :)
- Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
I wonder how they would survive spin, wash, dry, and iron cycles. or drying in a microwave oven.
Their has got to be a wide range of applications that would ruin the chips. I can see civil rights volunteers subotaging currency in the safety of their homes, a sort of grassroots thing.
the thousand lira notes in italy used to have a thin silver wire embedded in them. It was really easy to pull those out.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
http://slashdot.org/articles/01/02/17/1638237.shtm l
Tastes Like Chicken
Organized Crime can continue to induct illegal cash into the receipts of legitimate businesses, just by running them through the money scanner belonging to that business. If money actually passes from Joe Public to John Criminal for drugs, but is eventually labelled as having been used to buy pizza, how will the authorities know the difference?
My understanding of the situation is that the infrastructure behind this plan is going to be Linux (Red Hat, to be precise). What a decisive victory for the Open Source movement!!!
The article said the chips cost between 20 and 100 cents. I can't fathom it being economically possible to put these in anything but the largest bills. I think it could have some uses, such tracking the very large bills reserve banks move, but to track the everyday transactions.. improbable.
just my 2cents
JC
Just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD!
I saw this on the news a couple of nights ago. Hitachi makes the RFID. According to Hitachi the chips only contain 128 bits of ROM which is most likely only enough for a unique ID to trace the product or passport, etc. Perhaps another flaw in their design is the use of the 2.45GHz band which is already in use for 802.11b and microwave ovens. What's going to happen if they scan my passport while my portable microwave generator is outputting 100mW? That's surely enough to interfere with all RFID chips in the local area. I am also curious as to how these devices will power themselves considering they are .4mm^2.
All security measures will be defeated. Besides, crime is becoming more "virtual" - that is, people would rather break an unpatched IIS server and nab 10,000 credit card numbers than try to counterfeit $10,000,000.
What's amazing, is that it took no less than three minutes for Slashdot to demonstrate the futility of those electronic tags, i.e zapping currency in the microwave.
"unless they have every bill checked for every transaction to a central database or something.." Ok, the cost of not only the chips, but the checking, rechecking, cost to merchants for the technology to check when accepting (if applicable)...At some point, the monitary cost of all of this is going to exceed the face value of the money this technology is going into.
and if the chip includes writable memory, to even record its own history.
Like an automated version of the Doshtracker then ?
Hmmm, somebody is probably already brainstorming on this idea, but I could see someday a large data warehouse, used by the govt or whoever, to track the path money takes and use that information to predict spending trends of consumers.
Of course there would be some legal/ethical implications to doing this, but it would be possible.
So, what about privacy? If someone gives you money and they know which specific bills they gave you and the history up to that point, they could find out what you used them for if they encountered those specific bills again, right? Granted they would have to know how to interpret the data, but it could be done.
By they way, I cant wait until the US converts to Euros (just kidding)
I Heart Sorting Networks
The company I used to work for was dealing with a lot of Motorola smart card technology, and implementation schemes for it. One thing I don't get about smartcard/chip/cash technology is: Why bother with writable memory on-chip? It sure is useful if you're individualizing peoples' ID cards at a convention, but otherwise there's no point to it.
If someone is tech-savvy enough to hack the on-chip filesystem and change the path that piece of currency followed, then it wouldn't make a lick of difference where the cash has been. If they're tracking it at airports, train stations, or even every doorway, then a centralized database can handle the data mining without worrying about someone changing the non-static ID tags.
Although, increasing the price of currency production with useless features is pretty helpful if you plan on printing huge quantities of it... so watch out.
"Look at me, I invented the stove!" -- Ben Franklin
or more like hurdles and issues. First off, I see too many ways this could be used for Pure evil. As many have already said, the Gov knowing where, when and how I spend my money is none of their damn business (though they seems to think it is).
Since I'm going to guess that the RF in RFID means radio frequency, how long before your average pick pocket/mugger is using a detection device see just how much is in your wallet. An rightly so, I think that the store owner needs not know what's in my wallet either as I already can't stand it when they try to sell you up, imagine how much harder they will try if they can see how much your holding on you.
Now, onto the hurdles. I think they will have a hard time getting this to work since things like water, micro-wave emmissions, the crushing force of being sat on in a wallet are all factors that could destroy an RF device. Top that off with the need for a system that can read that signal while also keeping it secure so that average criminal's can't use it for thier own needs.
Another question would be, how much will this technology cost per bill and will it have an effect on the bills worth? While Europe seems to be very heavy in the way of tracking it's people (camera's everywhere) I think this is one way that will give them nothing but fits.
Trying to be different, just like everyone else.
How many times do they need to find bills from your ATM withdrawl in the pot dealer's deposit bag before they knock on your door?
This idea was written up at DEC SRC years ago if I am not mistaken.
The money in your wallet already has serial numbers on it, and of course every credit card transaction you make is accounted for in a database.
What happens when the cash register can't "read" your money because its crumpled up, or has been used too often. I often find myself at the grocery store and my debit and credit cards won't read properly without using tape or some other cloodge.
I do like the convenience of card-based money, but not enough to forfeit the anonymous nature of cold hard cash.
Now you can buy $100 worth of Euros and get $200 worth of RFID gadgets to sell and hax0r at your leisure. Hot damn.
-- Dan
If you want an insider's view of the origins of the European Central Bank, run, don't walk, to amazon.com and order a copy of this book.
Attempting to track the flow of currency is fully in line with your typical French bureaucrat's view that all good comes from the state, and that the state must be in charge of all aspects of life.
IMHO, the voters of the UK, Denmark, and Sweden are going to look very smart in the very near future.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
Anyone who can come up with something that will pass Money Abuse Tests has an amazing product.
Like for the US dollar, a machine rolls up the money into a very tight cylinder, then crushes it flat. The holograms that were being tested were totally destroyed by this test, so they don't appear on US money.
I'm going to go back in my box and will think within the limits of my box: MS Sucks Linux Good I read too much Slashdot.
Since some countries already have limits on what amounts can be imported and exported. This will finally make that unavoidable.
Those working abroad will now have to make decisions on where to work based on these restrictions.
----- Whats wrong with this picture? http://www.revoh.org:1234/whatswrong
I noticed some people asking basic questions like if RFID is wireless. RFID (Radio Frequency Identification) is inherently wireless, it works on the same principal our AC power transformers use. There is a coil inside the bill that is a certain number of turns. It is energized by a high energy coil placed where the bill needs to be tracked. The high energy coil induces a current in the bill's coil and causes it to modulate a unique stream of bits on a preset frequency. It's pretty nifty technology, it never needs batteries and will work indefinitely.
This technology has existed in access control systems for years. It's important to note that they're not 'chips' in the common sense of the word... they're actually coils of copper etching.
The coil is 'read' by emmitting a radio signal and reading the reflected frequency from the coil. This makes the currency immune to all forms of defacing short of cutting the coil out of the currency or cutting it in half. If the bank was smart, the coil spans the entire currency so it's impossible to complete remove it. It can be read from up to twenty feet away. However, it's difficult to discern different signatures or how many signatures there are when the coils are in close proximity to each other.
And no, microwaves will only serve to ignite your currency. But hey, if you've got money to burn, go for it, honey.
1 Strippers garter
2 Strippers garter
3 Strippers garter
4 Strippers garter
5 Strippers garter
6 Strippers garter
7 Strippers garter
8 Strippers garter
* End of History
-- www.globaltics.net
Political discussion for a new world
I agree with you, even though technically i'm european.. (british).. to hell with europe !
I wonder how privacy-invading schemes in traditional currencies might bring about the use of "alternative" currencies. If I own a company could I pay my employees 80% of their salary in traditional money and 20% in some other proprietary currency that I set up through some kind of partnership with local merchants?
New forms of payment might evolve via some grassroots movement that will circumvent the use of the traditional currency if it invades the public's privacy.
I Heart Sorting Networks
In theory this could make counterfeiting very difficult, or simply raise the stakes, as counterfeiters ply Central Bank employees for materials to counterfeit with. Still, with enough sophistication, merchants would be able to scan money and stop the bills quick. A possibility you wouldn't find in the US with all the whining merchants would put forth on increased costs of doing business, etc.
I wonder how well they'll survive a trip through the washer and dryer, though.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Our car-manufacturing company has developed a new revolutionary business model for making cars.
We give away the cars for free and then we sell services for those cars! If you want to we can clean your car, wax it or you can use some of our other services.
We get cash from a couple of VC's, the rest of them simple don't "get it". If we need more we just call "the suits".
Isn't 2005 a bit late to be rolling out something like this? I know lots of people and have read lots of articles claiming that by 2005 we'll be well into our cashless society stage.
Heck, I'm 99% there already. My paychecks go directly to my bank, and all but a few of the things I buy I pay for with a credit card, the bill from which is later paid for with a check. To me, money is just a number on a hard drive somewhere. (scary? I don't think so. Ask me when that number gets changed to be horribly wrong, though.)
AJ
Wow, you worked on a Master's in Econ and you didn't understand the reasoning behind the Euro? Woah. I take it you didn't go to grad school in Chicago or Michigan... I knew it was about control when I was an undergrad Econ student 5 years ago, as did the densest Management major taking a flyer at advanced Macro courses.
>It is unclear whether the ECB will incorporate >RFID chips into all euro bank notes or just on >the larger bills. The EUR 200 and EUR 500 bank >notes in particular -- equivalent to roughly $200 >and $500 in value -- are expected to be popular >in the "informal" economy. Embedding a 30 cents >chip into a EUR 500 bill would make more sense >than putting it into a European buck, several >industry sources said.
For EETIMES' info, the one-euro bill does not exist. One euro is a coin. Two euro is a coin as well. The smalles bill is five euro.
Just imagine all the underground cracking utilities that will probably appear to wipe a note's history.. "this note has not been used yet." "this note hasn't been photocopied". Serial number alteration. .. :)
To hell with Europe, keep the pound £££
(A watermark, light-sensitive line and hologram are usually enough..)
Oh, you have cash, can I see some ID please while I run the cash under a scanner to make sure it is yours?
Walking the fine line of pain and pleasure
404 sig not found
Great, I thought that as long as I used cash only (most of the times) for my consumption, I can keep my consumption behavior pretty private. That last means is being "worked on" too, eh?
Good thing the technology is not very practical at this point, and I doubt it's going to be implemented, as it is described in the article.
I've seen a lot of comments so far from people worried that this technology could be used to track the spending habits of individuals, but nothing in the article suggests that the money would be linked to the individuals using it. In fact, the article says that the current tech wouldn't even have write capability, and that it would store the serial number of the bill, or some equivalent.
Yes, an external computer at a merchant could read that number and store it, but it would not be of any use to the merchant. If they don't have your ID info then there's no problem, and if they do have your ID already then they probably only care that you spent 35 euros, and the fact that this took the form of three 10 euro notes and one 5 euro note really won't interest them.
Also, tracking "your" money is even more useless, since as soon as you spend it, it's not yours any more and someone else is going to spend it.
Can this technology be abused? Yes it can. Any technology that gathers even small amounts of data into a high capacity, searchable database can be used to invade privacy, and for this reason I oppose the creation of non-anonymous money. This is certainly a first step. The governents could require all transactions to record the buyer's ID and the bank note ID's and forward that info to the government, but this would require building a massive new IT infrastructure that would dwarf anything in existence today. Even if they starting building such a thing today, it would be obsolete before it was even a fraction of the way complete. Besides, governments don't like spending money for such huge projects unless the payoff is equally huge.
The sky's not falling yet folks.
Seriously though, does the government need to know that I spent the hundred euro note that I got from the bank at the widget store or whatever? Refuckindiculous. I guess those who want privacy will have to switch to prepaid visa cards, purchased with the change made from a fairly anonymous purchase (use a 500 euro note to buy some donuts or something?)
And it is pretty damn inexpensive. Or aren't you aware of what happens when you slide your credit card / ATM card into a gas pump? The only new infrastructure pieces would be the currency database that the government would need to set up and the currency scanner.
Care to guess how long it would take the credit card companies and banking industry to bid against each other for the privilege of administering such a system for the government? They could point out the "economies of scale" from simply ramping up their existing infrastructure. And of course a simple quarter percent "verification charge" similar to the charge on debit cards would easily fund the system. Further, use of RFID chips on that scale would make it a no-brainer for the CC companies to start using them in their credit cards - eliminating the need for a mag stripe reader.
But, yeah the article did say the chips were a bit pricey as yet. But when you have a guaranteed demand for billions of units per year, the price will come down. And then once it is proven to work, it will be approved for use in the North American Police States...
You either believe in rational thought or you don't
Why bother with the hi-tech solution when so many people are willing to do it voluntarily?
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
They are also kicking around other ideas:
1) Clerk asks you 3 slow times whether or not this is a 'Good Good' bill. "Is this thing Good Good?"
2) New to the Euro, its the FingEur; when using certain high denomination Euro bills, you roll the bill up on your index finger and cut it off, giving the sales clerk the entire package. That way if the bill is bad, they've already got your fingerprints! Though this sort of "copy protection" has already been broken, some counterfitters have already cut off all of their fingers.
3) The new Lie-DetectEur is a Euro bill that has a white patch on one end, when you go to exchange it for goods or services, you place your thumb on the patch and say whether or not the bill is real. The bill has a powerful little ARM processor that does a variety of things; first it checks your blood pressure, cerebral cortex activity, and eye movement to see if you are lying. Then, it checks your bank account to make sure that just in case you ARE lying and this bill is counterfit, you have enough in the bank to cover it. The cash is then transferred into a special holding account (provided oh so thoughtfully by the bank) until the bill is used in another transaction.
Alrighty, that's enough of that.
-- Dan
Given the current record of such folks as AG Ashcroft and the average citizen's complacency in giving away their freedoms I wouldn't be so quick to wave the flag and praise the US dollar as an eternal bulwark against abuse. There is no reason to believe the Feds wouldn't try to push that here by selling it to the population under some guise. anti-terrorism? war against drugs? war against (insert boogeyman of the day here)?
I'd say the government (and our budget chasing law enforcement agencies) hate anonymity and faceless cash represents that freedom.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
much better than Where's George. But, wouldn't the evil hearted find a way to put spam in our wallet?
Jhon
Unfortunately, if I take a bunch of these bills to a bank and deposit it, it still won't tell anyone what I did with the money.
It might even be misdetected as laundering. The money went to a bank, and then Bob Terrorist made a withdrawal, got the bill and went to Pete's Explosive Shop...
Oh no, the feds are at MY door!
It's easy to stand out when the general level of competence is so low.
I don't know about you, but I'm going to solve this particular issue if it comes to the U.S. by paying for everything in pennies.
;)
And just in case anyone saw Mr. Show with Bob and David, no, they are not Ass pennies.
I really should get some sleep
-- Dan
I'm in a business where RF id's would be of great use, but are currently cost prohibitive, as stated in the above article. I'm looking forward to someone purchasing RF ID's on a large scale to drive the manufacturing cost down, so that it will be more accessable and practical for industry use. We've been waiting to get rid of the UPC/Barcode for a long time now, maybe this will help to push the technology. It's not hard to see the benefits of waving a magic wand over an area to determine how much of which type of item exists, rather than touching each one to "scan" the barcode.
By RF tagging items/units/cases RFID's will allow for more efficient warehouse management, and inventory control, as well as stocking shelves, checkout, etc. This will also aid in the prevention of theft of goods. All in all, this would lead to lower prices at the shelves for everyone due to more efficient supply chain management, and inventory control.
We would like to see the cost of this technology come down a bit, and a large scale purchase of these items from Europe would help all of us dramatically, we just have to look at the big picture.
It's always funny to see how the points of view towards dollar or euro are linked with the
country the people live in.
Here in Europe most people would laugh about the dollar being a better "symbol of freedom and privacy".
Many would disagree with your last paragraph, although I don't want to judge which opinion is closer to reality. Many Europeans have a slightly different idea of democracy and freedom than US citizens. Money e.g. is far less powerful here in bending law, elections or being a sign of personal fame and success. On the other hand many things are much more restricted or controlled (Germany's famous bureaucracy).
The point is: the US has a more libertarian face, while most European societies tend to be more social-democratic. Transferred to the currency it means: what you think is "dangerous control" we don't care at all.
If you cry: stay at your dollar, we believe our way of "managing" the currency is free!
--- censored
So...does this 'chip' (or etched wire, or whatever) draw power, or is it a completely passive system? If there is one it couldn't be much, but what kind of battery might we be talking about here? What's the life-span?
Triv
There have been serial numbers on notes as long as I can remember. This is the same concept using new technology which will make it possible to digitally sign each serial number.
The scheme will only be used on large notes since those are most likely to be subject to forgery. Applying it to all notes would be to costly but will probably be possible in the future.
This is no secret project(as indicated by the article) since it has been in the news several times in Europe.
What if a mugger got ahold of an RFID reader and knew how much was in my wallet?
RFID is just one of the technologies being examined. It has advantages as well as a pile of disadvantages that other have noted here. Certainly whilst you may spend 1 Euro to protect a 500 Euro note, even that is pretty expensive.
Although in the US, people like to use non-cash methods for large but legal sums, say for a car or a house, in may parts of the EU, people will make major purchases in cash, yes even houses and these people have their cash legally too! Well, some of them. Certainly, there are a lot of quite legitimate users of high value bills here.
The problem here is that counterfeit money costs the issuer. It certainly costs the Fed for all those dud greenbacks. However, no central banker likes to tell how much counterfeit money is being picked up (I have asked). WHther it costs enough that it justifies RFID tags is another matter.
The EU certainly likes to support domestic technology, i.e. Siemens and Phillips, but there are limits.
See my journal, I write things there
Given that the USA has more civil rights organizations than most countries have citizens, we are in very good shape here and can be assured that the dollars of the future will not have embedded RF transmitters.
I wouldn't trust the USA: they have Echelon, Carnivore and so on. Remember Clipper?
I don't know if there is any metric on how much illegal commerce adds to a country's GDP, but I'm guessing they will find that it is significant if they can track illegal transactions. Of course, the definition of "illegal" may be pretty broad. If I give my brother a bill for a gift or I buy a jacket at a garage sale, someone should be counting the money I give them as income. Now that all those transactions can be tracked, I wonder if they would be considered "illegal" if they weren't reported as taxable income.
While I really hate the idea of some store knowing how much I have in my pocket, mostly due to not having much. It might make those big drug dealers, and big wig politicians eaiser to spot.
Beware of people asking for an ID when you are paying cash.
"We need to see it in case, uhhhh, the cash bounces at the Federal Reserve, yah that's it."
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
I can see it now, you go to pay for lunch and your cash comes up "This $ is owned by THE 3L1T3!!!" then the bill erases itself.
When will we see Eurocash virses?
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
It seems that the post office can track not only where mail is sorted, but exactly when it went through a specific sorting machine and what went before and after. This came out in the anthrax investigation where they could say when the lady in CT had her letter pass through a machine and which letters came before and after.
I'd suggest tracking money is even more interesting the tracking mail to many in a position of power. Are you all sure it isn't already happening -- there is little incentive to tell anyone.
If the coils resist microwaves, there will still be some way of destroying them. Sustained heat, just below paper's flash point, electromagnetic pulses, or if push comes to shove, a pin hammered through the center. They simply won't be able to make these indestructible and cost reasonable.
Big government will have to push the use of scanners (for "counterfit detection", of course) at as many commercial outlets as possible, or rely on the apathy of the masses....
The opinions expressed are almost certainly NOT those of my employer....
The great mystery behind the Euro was the question of why the European banks felt the need to even bother with an expensive, difficult conversion to a single currency. After all, different currencies for different countries made a lot more sense: the value of each country's currency fluctuated based on the relative trading strength of the nation. It was a very fair, consistent system. And the introduction of the Euro would hopelessly skew or destroy the currency markets that brought prosperity to so many speculators and traders.
As I see it, the goal is to unite Europe rather than have many different nations. This is why the dropped border customs almost everywhere. This is why you can travel from one European nation to another without formalities. And this is also why we're gettin a unified currency. It's about market power. The united European market is much stronger than every single nation on its own.
Marketing, based on cash usage; retroactive invalidation of paper currency, based on your credit history; tracking of every move you make
All this arguments assume, that the money stores a person's name, id or something. Well, I didn't find that in the article. They're tracking the MONEY not the PEOPLE.
And when the government wants to know where you're spending your money, the banks won't hesitate to let them know.
Same thing as above. It might be technically possible to find out where you spend your money, however what good would that be? There's a lot more useful information to be gathered by hireing a detective that spys on you.
Given that the USA has more civil rights organizations than most countries have citizens, we are in very good shape here and can be assured that the dollars of the future will not have embedded RF transmitters.
Now that's just trolling :-)
Um... I didn't do it!
Private citizens can even get into the act here
"We must standardize on the dollar, a symbol of freedom and privacy"
How many terroristic/illegal groups are using the dollar as their currency? See, this is not going to happen with the Euro.
So what is better? Giving the bad guys a shiny insecure currency to conduct "business" with, or try everything to make this world (Europe...) more secure?
say about 30 years? that way I can live the rest of my life out without having to worry about having a chip imprinted in my skin that can be tracked by anyone who wants to throw money at a receiver? or having my wallet surveyed by a potentiel mugger? Or have my cars speedometer turn me in for doing 80 down the turnpike???? Please folks, someone invent a time machine so I can live in 1971 and drive a friggin barracuda?
#include sig.h
Most of your negative points (especially invalidation of currency) are ludicrous and most likely illegal. Do you really think that banks have the power to invalidate your money just because you have poor credit? (hmm....it seems that you don't have enough money, so we'll just invalidate the money you do have). regular consumer banks do not have that kind of power.
As for "standardizing" on the US dollar, that just counters your point of the benefits of trading amongst many nations. The US dollar is currently the most used currency on earth, but most western countries would never allow the US that much control over their ecconomies, esspecially when they already control so much of it(think mcdonalds and coke). A tracking chip on the currency is a pretty useless idea anyways. More and more transactions are being done electonically anyways.
I'm not saying the euro is all good, but its not all bad either. The only thing that surprises me about the euro is why some of the stronger economies there are joining it...especially Germany.
I refuse to give ID when paying cash. That's why I haven't bought anything at radio shack for several years.
Check this posters recent comments.
He's a Computer security professional, who is also a certified electrician with a degree in Economics.
He has an uncle who works for MS, and a brother who is a multi-millionaire.
(Seeing as he can't afford his own apartment, I guess he's not on terribly good terms with his brother.)
In short this guy is full of shit. Don't feed the troll!
Which crackhead modded this troll up as "Interesting"?
</flame>
Speculators and traders may make money on fluctuating exchange rates, but they don't generate any wealth. The wealth is generated by businesses that under the current system, don't have any good way to predict what their supplies will cost, or how much they'll be able to sell their finished product for. Both of these vary because of the actions of speculators and traders.
In fact, the only variable under their control is theur wages bill. Guess which is going to get squeezed when the speculators and traders decide to increase the costs of your supplies while decreaing the value of your finished product?
<counter-troll>
Of course, this wouldn't matter in the USA, because the USA is run for the benefit of corporations. The EU appears a little more concerned for the livelihoods of its citizens.
</counter-troll>
--
E_NOSIG
Requires: Anvil, Hammer, Nail or Chisel.
Locate chip, place bill on anvil. Place nail or chisel on chip. Strike nail or chisel with hammer. Repeat if necessary.
Trolling is a art,
Imagine cashing your monthly paycheck at a bank and the bank hands you a couple of phony bills. you think the bank is going to check billions of bills?
You go out to a restaurant with your sweetie to eat. You pay in cash, EUROs, and the cashier doesn't like your looks, so he checks the bills with his EUROCHECKER. The bills come up bogus. At best, the cashier returns your bills and demands a credit card w/picture ID. Or he confiscates the bills and notifies security. Or he calls the cops.
You go to the bank to redress your grievance and they explain that it is YOUR responsibility for verifying that the bills are legal tender. However, only they and established businesses have these verifiers. So at best you are out a couple hundered, at worst you are a counterfieter.
Sound outlandish? So is going into this without oversight on who controls the verification of authenticity. Worse could be a "tax" that the bank charges to authenticate the bills, sort of like an added "feature" in you checking account.
http://cincyboys.blogspot.com/ Everything Cincinnati. Including the word 'Finnih'
Amusingly enough, 1984 is when posession of cash became a crime--or at least a punishable offense.
Check out fear.org for information and horror stories about the US's grand "asset forfeiture" laws.
If you ever get investigated for--not convicted of, not charged with, not necessarily even seriously suspected of--but investigated for any federal crime (which means just about any crime, these days), you're pretty well fucked.
Personally, I've been detained at the airport--long before 9/11--for having $300 cash on me. Only drug dealers have that kinda dough, y'know. So, having cash is cause for an investigation, and any investigation is cause for takin' all yer money, so...uh...buy gold, before they make that illegal, too.
Your mouth is like Columbus Day.
Say they bust a drug dealer on the street. They take his money, find the bills that didn't come from his ATM, and find out who had the remaining bills last. I'm betting they'll try for a court order to raid the homes of the people who last had those bills. If you happened to give one of those bills to a street vendor who then gave it to the drug dealer, then, well, thanks for helping out your government - hope that door isn't too expensive to replace.
The moral of this story is that the system can't work until every point of currency exchange is surveilled electronically, which will effectively be never, which means the information will always be meaningless at best. The risk is making assumptions about the validity of the data (which I'm sure They will).
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Electrostatic Discharge (ESD) is going to be my friend if I have to deal with this. Not my fault if all my cash somehow doesn't register in their readers. (Of course, it could get expensive if they decide not to honor my cash all of a sudden because it doesn't read. :G )
-Eugene
I wonder if you'll have to upgrade your cash's firmware when they find security flaws.
Imagine that, you go to pay for something and the serial number has changed to "L337". Sheesh.
The clothing and laundry machine industries are already gearing up to put rfid tags in garments. The idea is that your washer and dryer will watch what you put in them and then behave accordingly or warn you that you are about to turn all your underwear pink.
Oh look, I went searching for a link, and even found one on slashdot
Come on. I've read five notable comments in this thread and they all say in effect "How can I disable this protection to prevent the government from spying on me?"
Yes, I am concerned about my privacy. I find it really painful that so many people have my phone number, my email address, and my home address. People send me offensive ads every day which I wish I could refuse without inviting more.
This said, why are people instantly opposed to money with copy protection? I have no objection to this money unless something goes severely wrong, for example:
The money requires me to input my name and address after acquiring it.
The money breaks if I don't take good care of it.
Retailers refuse to accept it because the copy protection is so burdensome.
The wierd thing is that existing money often has these problems. When I go to the bank and withdraw cash from my account, they ask me for my name and address on the withdrawal form. If I leave a twenty in the wash a few too many times, it might fall apart - sometimes you can get people to still take it, but often not. And most inexplicably, the new US $100 bill that has so many copy protection features on it - I can't use it anywhere! People simply refuse it and say "there's too many forgeries around." Isn't that odd?
If the ECB puts a 1k data chip on their money, and the money still works like normal money, I will encourage it.
Do you think you could put more then one tag in the same bill? Or swap the transmitter in bills? Or even 'flash' the chip and change its history.
This isn't much different from the system already in use in the United States, where the metalized strips in our currency are encoded magnetically. The proposed system for the Euro is potentially more secure, given that information couldn't be read nor written without the correct codes, but is just as big a problem with regards to privacy.
The technology already exists to track the cash using serial numbers (OCR). Everyone just assumes this isn't being done yet.
Could 'disable' all of the money in a bank vault. Seriously, if somebody wanted to undermine the currency, all they would have to do is wait somewhere that large amounts of currency would be passing by and set off an EMF pulse that would fry any circuitry that is put on the cash. Do it to enough money, and nobody would trust it anymore.
-- Give me ambiguity or give me something else!
It should be two smaller coils with a completely different signature, or not?.. given that a small hole in a bill shouldn't upset anyone.. of course depends on how many coils you'd put in, wouldn't want it to look like a swiss cheese.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
I'm sure some of you already know about wheresgeorge.com... but if not, its a really fun thing to do. Get an account, and voluntarily track your own bills by entering the serial numbers. Each bill gets marked, and hopefully somebody else will see it and enter the serial numbers again. I've had a bit of fun with it, seeing my bills travel around the country.
But seriously though, one of the benefits of using paper currency is its anonymity. I buy my copy of 2600 every quarter with plain cash, just because I"m ultra paranoid. Hard currency is used in ways that will boggle the mind, so its somewhat hard to believe the problems that would arrise from money tracking here in the US.
Its probably unconstitutional anyway.
Skiers and Riders -- http://www.snowjournal.com
I really hope that Europeans get this working,
then we can do the same thing over here in the
greatest nation on earth, USA!
--anonymous high ranking staffer for the
Committee to Make George W. King For Life
(CMGWKFL)
'nuff said.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
Nobody wants to give the irs everything!
After all, it's the underground economy that keeps this economy afloat. On a sidenote, congress has given the dept of treasury millions of dollars to "fight terrorism"; which means, that the usa is allready planning this!
--Kill enough of them, keep your own money!
I wonder what happens to one of these chips if it goes through the washing machine? Would give new meaning to laundering money!
Chips are fragile. Check this out. Washable, wearable, durable.
Coins, if I am not mistaken, already cost more to mint than their value.
Why would a mint operate at a loss? What possible reason could they have for spending six cents to make a nickel?
And would you be interested in buying this nice new twenty dollar bill for the low, low price of $35.99? Hell, I'll even autograph it!
I'm not sure if i'd want to know how many strip joints my money has been in before it gets to me!
Pity the sad soul who cashes his paycheck at the local EuroOneStop or whatever - only to find he can't use the bills...;-()
db
Cig:
ôô
Europe is supposed to switch over to the Euro on January 1, which is less than a week away. I would imagine, if this RFID is going to be a standard thing, that the details would already have been worked out, and put into production.
If it's not a standard, then there will be a whole lot of non-RFID currency floating around, because I'm sure that they've already printed and distributed a large portion, if it's to go into use next week.
A bit late in the game to make any changes in the design, I would say.
Jenova_Six
to your first point: Even current bills in Germany and the new Euros are not that simple like the US Dollar. They contain holograms, micro-writings, special embroidery, water marks, metal twines
and many other things. Therefore I do not think
this will make the bill much more expensive.
And the Euros will - like the current DM-bills - have different sizes and different holograms.
to your second point: As far as I know, these things are just an antenna that gives an serial number. demagnetizer won't help. microwaves will
more likely lit the metal-twines than damage the chip. Only some very strong needle lace may help,
but this could be seen as wilful damage rendering the bill worthless.
But the US-Dollar is a point. These bills seem to
be made to be counterfeit. All bills have the same size, only one color on an very cheap paper. And no security measures at all. An large US-Dollar bill outside the US is most likely faked already today. So there are chances that noone will accept these, which could defeat your third point.
Great scam! "Someone give me a stack of Euros and a reader, and I promise I'll spend my time trying to defeat the RFID tag!" More likely you'll be spending Euros and giggling at the goof who's waiting for your "test results".
Virg
Credit cards will become more pervasive... And don't forget checks.
First of all: the Euro was not pushed by the banks. It was done by the governments.
Second: the European currencies have had fixed rates for a few years now and I still have to see any negative effect of that. The countries that are allowed to join in, have to have a very stable currency. Only fluctuation within a very small band was allowed. If a currency would fluctuate too much, the EMU would act upon by buying or selling the currency. It has been like this for many years now and so far this cooperation has only had benefits. In fact the system has even proven to work already waaay before we came up with the Euro. So why is a fixed currency not fair? If we decide we want to cooperate more, why not fix those rates? Or would you rather have a different currency in every state of the US? That would be more fair by your rules, wouldn't it.
Third: I don't see how the Euro allows any more control than the money we had before does. The cash is just the same, it only looks different and has a different value per unit. There is no additional tracking-system AT ALL. The banks don't get any additional control either, they only change Currency X into EURO and that's it. So what exactly are you talking about?
Next: in what way is the dollar any better than the Euro? Please give me some arguments before saying so. They're both just currencies. Money. Something to prevent us from having to trade cows for computers. It's nothing more than that. The ONLY reason why a currency would be any better, would be that it's value is more stable compared to the value of other currencies. Maybe the dollar is more stable (I don't believe it is, but I may be wrong). One thing I can tell you: the Euro is most certainly a lot more stable than 16 different independant currencies. So that would make the Euro better than all currencies we're using now here in the EU.
Last: What does the amount of civil rights organizations have to do with this? Are there really more of such organizations in the US (as compared to the EU)? Please give me some facts. And then think about why this could be....maybe they're simply needed more in the US?
0x or or snor perron?!
It is absolutely impossible to understand our world today without reading the Bible. I know most readers on /. probably don't agree with me, so I enjoy stirring up trouble with messages like this :-) Standard currency is just another step towards a one world government predicted in the Bible. Do your research, and you might be surprised how well it all fits together.
Hell all the hot strippers are strippers b/c they dont want to pay taxes. I mean shit this really is going to dent my love (aka Rosie Palmer) life!
It's not the government tracking the purchase of a loaf of bread that worries us.
How would you like to explain to your boss, or your wife, why the police came by to ask how money you withdrew from an ATM ended up in the possession of a drug dealer? Or a prostitute? History is absolutely clear on this: the "big fish" have the resources and motivation to bribe officials (or "trade" information for leniancy), it's the little guy who gets hit with 10-years-without-parole mandatory sentences or has their car (or house!) confiscated as "tainted"... and innocence is often no defense. With the "seizer gets the goods" laws, there's also clear evidence that many (not all) police deliberately target the weak for institutionalized theft - ask anyone who had their car confiscated on some southern interstates because they couldn't prove that the car (which does not have constitutional protection) was "innocent."
The stupidest thing is that these laws will have absolutely no impact on the low-level criminal activities. The *only* thing criminalization does is close the courts to people with small disputes, forcing them into big disputes. If a guy rips you off in a used car sale, you can haul him into court, possibly even file a criminal complaint. If you're ripped off in a drug deal of the same size, your options are to either absorb the loss (and be marked as an easy target for future abuse) or kill the bastard. Gee, is it any wonder why "low level drug dealer" and "dead" appear in the same sentence so much? Ditto "street walker" and "victim of sadistic mass-murderer"?
The proposal, today, is to only mark large bills. But it won't be long until the standard bill coming out of the ATM is marked (due to inflation and cheaper second-generation technology). Once the bills are marked and tracked, some grandstanding politician will be unable to resist the "get tough on street crime" temptation, esp. when data farming machines are powerful enough to track this information.
It will only catch the stupid drug user, john, etc., but what will the street find as a currency to replace it? I think most of us would prefer the occasional streetcorner transaction than, oh, a 2400% increase in petty burglaries because the street trade now uses small untracked items like CDs and the like.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
Why would a hard drive be any scarier than ...
The fact you work for a piece of paper? Money has no intrinsic value unless you want to insulate your house. You're simply trusting in the fact that people will accept it.
This post is almost too dumb and paranoid to address, but I'll do it because it was fun to find the holes. Let's look at some of them.
1.) The money doesn't "ping" or anything else. It's not self-powered at all. You need to pass it through an EM field to get it to respond. Developing an EM field of sufficient power to activate these chips such that they'd be able to return a signal more than ten feet would (A) destroy the chip and (B) kill all of your houseplants and (C) require a generator bigger than the patrol car.
2.) Drug money doesn't spend time "outside the legitimate banking system" at all. This is one of the main reasons why money laundering is so popular. Having boxes of cash is a nice thought, but most crime figures don't like having liquid assets like that because it's fragile, easy to steal (if Boss X has $100,000.00 in a safe it's right difficult to tell that his bodyguard is skimming C notes) and it draws attention.
3.) Having cash is not a warrantable offense. There are those who will tell you horror stories about being detained for having lots of cash, but if you ask all of them to leave except the ones who were detained on a warrant you'd be a lonely person. The police driving by the house would need a warrant to drive by and check (if it were possible; see number 1 above) as radio communications are protected from illegal search unless they're detectable to the general public.
4.) Assuming for a moment that 1, 2 and 3 above were by some miracle suspended, here's the rub. Radio waves don't generally pass through safes. So, you could put said cash in a safe, and it would be, well, safe. Hell, if you're really worried, you could put it in a bucket of water.
Remember, just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean you're worth tracking.
Virg
If you want to see where your old-fashoined bills go, Where's George? is an interesting site. I give rubber stamps to kids as gifts and they watch their money float around the country.
What if someone wants to track a friend or girlfriend? What if someone wants to stick a hitman on someone? What if a thug is looking for a good money target? Tracking won't take a well skilled officer or thug anymore, it will take a mad 15 year old kid with internet access browsing texts. Just as with anything technical, I am sure it will be hackable to do other things it shouldn't do.
I thought this editorial cartoon about the new Euro was pretty damn funny, although it doesn't directly address the RFID tags, it pokes fun at some of the other Euro-related concerns.
How long will it be before laws are passed requiring every transaction to be logged against personal ID? Like, transactions becoming illegal unless they're logged? For example,
"Daddy, can I have 45 euro for a new skirt?"
"Sure sweetheart, here you go"
"But daddy, you've gotta scan the money over to me, or the shops won't accept it"
"Oh sorry, can we do it on your computer, mine's in the middle of something?"
"Sure"
"What do I do?"
"I gotta scan your passport first. Then, I gotta scan my student card, then we scan the 45 euro on the government website, only takes 20 secs"
"Man this feels complicated. I remember the good old days"
"But daddy, we gotts stop the terrorists!"
-- In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was UNSIGNED, and the main(){} was without form and void...
The system can handle stacks up to about ten chips high, and can read 40+ chips in a matter of seconds, determining where on the field each stack is, and the individual serial number of the embedded RF tag in each chip.
The problem of being able to scan people as they walk through the door and determine how many notes of what denomination are in their wallet has not yet been solved...
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
Being illegal tender does not mean it won't be used. It's not like every 15 year-old stoned pizza delivery boy is going to be scanning all of his tips before accepting them. A bill with a borked chip still looks, feels, smells, tastes and sounds exactly like a normal bill, so you're still going to be able to buy things with it.
for Linux :
dd if=/dev/null of=/dev/bill bs=1024 count=8192or
mke2fsfor Windows :
format note:[Please insert bill in driver]
There are some pretty good comments about the technology and privacy issues, but frankly, both of those pale in comparison to the economic impact of the Euro. The EC is about to create effectively a whole new economy, one significant enough that the Euro may displace the US dollar as the "golden boy" of trade. The others are looming, but this is NOW.
gm
Ad luna, Alicia! Ad luna!
Didn't they have a bloody revolution over there to oust the previous state?
Heh.
Viva la revolutionne!
Or some shit. The froggies never do learn, though, do they?
"Ha ha! Puny Germany, you shall not cross our defens... WE SURRENDER WE SURRENDER WE SURRENDER!"
A federal court has ruled random thermal scannings are illegal, but since you've got the evidence, admissable.
obviously you've never been to europe.. since we have bills that go up to 200, 500 or even 1000 (at least here in germany- just for your info: 1 German Mark is about 50 US cent) it's not unusual at all to use a 50 or 100 Mark-bill. and i don't think that's gonna change with the Euro.
also, credit cards are not as widely accepted (or just not used as much) as in the US.. so it'S much more usual to pay larger sums in cash
Unless you are giving you brother more than $10,000 a year it isn't taxable.
Si vis pacem, para bellum
The only thing more annoying than a Libertarian is an (un|mis)informed Libertarian
Perhaps this could be used in tracking down counterfiters
Well, only if the counterfiters are stupid enough to put real chips in their fake money...
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Will an electro magnetic pulse render the bills useless???
;)
Privacy is terrorism.
Score (-5: Flamebait; Troll)
Does anyone with half a brain cell still honestly think the USA symbolises "freedom and privacy"???
Hahahahahahahaha
What's your sig mean? Obviously my sig and your sig are diametrically opposed, so I am curious. Post as AC if you want to preserve karma, I don't post as AC because it's too hard to figure out if someone has replied to me or not.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
Very first sentence of the article:
"The European Central Bank is working with technology partners on a hush-hush project to embed radio frequency identification tags into the very fibers of euro bank notes by 2005."
On the contrary, this would be a very good thing, If money is worth tracking (ie they go through the trouble) is has been somewhere interesting ... now I realize you might be a megalomaniac, but why the hell would you (or some hacker) care how much money I'm carrying ? I can assure you it's not much, and not very interesting. No, this would eliminate "anonymous" money, which would be a very good thing people have a point when they say that if you don't want your wife to know you did something 1 of 2 things is wrong : she shouldn't be your wife, or you shouldn't be doing it. Now 1 person would care in that case : your wife, not me, not anybody else. And she will not get access to the database. Anonymous money is what makes crime possible (think about it) it's what makes hiring assasins possible, it's what makes fraud possible, etc etc. I say we get rid of it.
Money does not really mean anything anyway. It basically sucks. Science is (right now) bringing us closer and closer to a situation where anything but research and art is worthless. Now there aren't many researches, and there are very few artists (more than enough wannabies though). Most people cannot do meaningful jobs, even right now that trend is progressing (yes there are a number of people required to run mcdonaldses but dumb loan slaves should not represent a significant amount of people)
then again the romans did this : "bread and games" they called it. Maybe that's our future too.
Argh! And I had better text to go with it, too. I should have saved a copy for just this moment. Alas, I'll just recap my concerns from my submission:
1. Because of cost, this will be probably implemented first only in the larger denomination bills. (stated in the article)
2. The security model is flawed. The authentication process encrypts the serial number, so without the algorithm you can't tell the bill's denomination. (You can track the bills by the unique encrypted number, irregardless if you know the algorithm).
3. You put these two facts together, and the mere presence of an RFID bill in your pocket means you have at least ~USD$200. If you have 10 RFID bills, you've got at least $2000. Without bypassing the encryption, you can pick off the most worthwhile people to rob.
4. Fortuantly, these are readable only at a short distance (~12 inches), but two antennas by the bathroom door will scan a whole lot of people.
----------------
Your recent submissons
Here are your recent submissions to Slashdot, and their status within the system:
2001-12-19 16:14:26 RFID in Euro Bank notes by 2005 (articles,money) (rejected)
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
I hate to see how the stupid shop clerks will handle this.
/. Privacy Brigade :) ) coming back fake through such tests. Eventually, people will believe the detectors 'cry wolf' so often as to be useless. And you're back at square one.
Give people a simple way to 'verify' if a note is 'good' or not, and they'll use it to the exclusion of all others.
If you're in the US, how often do you see someone holding up a new $10/20/50/100 to check the watermark or security thread or colour-shift ink? Compare it with how often they use those stupid colour-change pens. Exactly the principle this will bring into play. Except that I would suspect that the RFID doohickey is a little more sensitive of mishandling than the chemical structure of the paper.
If they can't make it unbelievably reliable, they'll start to see lots of notes (particularly those with a few years of circulation and mishandling under their belts, or those which recieve modifications by the
Also, I wonder how useful the serial number alone would be as a tracking device. In the US, at least, the same numbers are reused for every series and denomination (for which sufficent quantities are printed). I might have No. A12345678B of the Series 1995 $2, but someone else might be buying drugs with A12345678B from the Series 1977 $100. At the least, you've got to save more information if you want to avoid spurious hits.
"the European currencies have had fixed rates for a few years now and I still have to see any negative effect of that. The countries that are allowed to join in, have to have a very stable currency. Only fluctuation within a very small band was allowed. If a currency would fluctuate too much, the EMU would act upon by buying or selling the currency. It has been like this for many years now and so far this cooperation has only had benefits. In fact the system has even proven to work already waaay before we came up with the Euro."
Nice theory, but it wasn't applied properly. That was why Britain withdrew from the exchange rate mechanism (ERM). About 10 years or so ago, there were several runs on different currencies. IIRC, Greece, Portugal, Italy(?) and Britain. The British Chancellor of the Exchequer (sp?) spent billions in just a few days trying to prop up the pound to keep it within its fluctuation boundaries. In the end they gave up, and allowed Sterling to free-fall. They couldn't do it by themselves and the help from France and Germany was only half-hearted. Then a run was started on the French Franc. That was when Germany finally stepped up to its ERM responsibilities and helped protect the French exchange rate.
"Next: in what way is the dollar any better than the Euro? Please give me some arguments before saying so. They're both just currencies. Money"
The USD has a proven track-record of political independence. The DM used to too. Other European countries such as France and Italy have no such reputation, and are infact infamous for their politically meddling with the currency. The Euro will have to prove its political independence before it will be trusted in the same way that the other benchmark currencies are (GBP, USD, almost ex-DM, etc).
The Euro has some interesting challenges to its stability ahead, such as the over-heating Irish economy that requires higher interest rates versus the very weak German and French economies that require low interest rates. In the US, regional recessions are countered by freedom of movement (people can move to a better part of the country). In Europe, this is supposed to be possible but cultural barriers such as language make this harder, and of course, some places (e.g. France) make this kind of thing harder with their traditional govermental bureaucracy and red tape.
In Northern Ireland, we have plastic five pound notes, they are durable wipe-clean, and generally can take a lot more abuse than their paper counterparts. :)
Details available from: www.polymernotes.org/new_page_13.htm
Though they don't mention the fact that our sorting machine still havn't been reprogrammed to accept them, nor the fact that though they survive being washed in your trousers they have a habit of melting into them when subsequently ironed.
Hmm you're right (more info). I wasn't aware of that... About the dollar vs euro: I understand the political independance is very important, but that's not what the parent of this thread was talking about at all (so neither was I). The dollar on itself isn't any better than the euro with regard to privacy etc. It's only the political situation of the dollar that makes it better at the moment. And I think the advantages (stimulation of the economy) will outweigh the disadvantages (having to prove the currency again) in the long run. Or should I say "I hope"?:)... Thank you for your clarification.
0x or or snor perron?!
It's understandable that 7-11 may not always have change for my $1.99 purchase that I pay for with a $100 bill, but as long as I'm willing to let them keep the change, it seems there is no legal way for them to refuse to accept my bill.
Or have I missed something?
--
Power to the Peaceful
My "freedom of speech" or freedom of belief, or sexual freedom, etc is no freedom if I can lose my livelihood for it. As an example of where the government really shines, freedom of movement is no freedom if a private entity owns all the forms of transport, and fortunately it's a democratically accountable agency - our government - that does instead.
Ultimately I'm a liberal socialist libertarian, I don't want the government or anyone else interfering in my private life, though I'll accept limited interference where it doesn't over-burden me and it is for the greater good, by a body that's accountable. I'm more than happy for the government to regulate the other powers that govern my life, as long as the regulation is reasonable and aimed at promoting the rights of the individual.
Both socialists and libertarians have a habit of arguing that only they hold the true flaming torch of freedom. I think they're both right, and they're both wrong.
Does that answer your question?
Slightly off topic, but, don't the US bills have a magnetic strip in them that identifies the bill's amount? ($5, 10, 20, 50, 100)... It's not unique to the dollar, but from what I understand, an airport security scanner could reveal the amount one is carrying. (OK, I admit, I remember "The Lone Gunmen" on an X-Files episode talking about it). Is this just a conspiracy theory or is there any truth to this? It seems possible, IMO.
Perhaps this may be part of the reason why there's an agreement to continue using DM (search for 'emerged').
You're missing a key point here. The person is not charged with a crime, and the legal system puts the burden of proof on the state to prove that he commited a crime.
But cash is seized. The cash does not have the same legal protections as a person, and the burden is on the owner to "prove" that their money is "innocent." The owner is free to leave at any time - without his money, or car, or business, or whatever else was seized.
This is an impossible burden for most working people. There was an especially horrific local case a while back where a coed's boyfriend borrowed her car *without her permission* and used it to drive to buy pot. The car was seized "as a criminal instrument," and the woman was told that to get her car back she had to post a bond equal to the value of the car - and there was some weird catch-22 where she would have probably been out either the car or the money regardless of the way the case was resolved. She couldn't get to her classes or work, and even if she could she would need to use her tuition money to get her car back.
So this woman, convicted of absolutely no crime, charged with absolutely no crime, morally guilty of absolutely no crime other than possibly having a poor choice in boyfriends, was forced out of college and forced out of her job "to fight the drug trade." And she was damn lucky - there are other well-documented cases where women were sentenced to ten fscking years in prison without possibility of parole for no reason other than havnig a poor choice in boyfriends. He was a low-level dealer and able to negotiate a reduced sentence by turning on his suppliers, but she was a chump who got caught with a kilo stashed in her bathroom - without her knowledge or consent - and the "get tough" laws require blood.
Do some people win? Rarely, but it almost always requires broad press coverage and well-attended rallies. The only local case where I know this happened involved a popular sub shop seized and closed for several days - and threatened with forfeiture - because a single employee received money for a 'shroom sale at work. There was never any allegation of drug transactions occuring at work, much less the knowledge and consent of the owner, yet their business was closed and nearly seized.
Somehow I doubt that a similar transaction on the law on the US Attorney would result in his house being seized, his family thrown onto the street, and the prosecutor threatened with disbarrment...
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
The easy way to destroy a chip would be with one of those high-voltage zappers that are sold for self-defense. Several tens of thousands of volts will cream any MOS semiconductor. However, I can see merchants refusing to take such 'damaged' currency if it won't register on their readers, so wiping the chips out may not accomplish much except force you to take your deactivated money to a bank for replacement.
The EU is scary - Europe is often held up as an example (by the liberal media and academia) for the U.S. to follow. What short-sighted fellows our liberal friends are. Europe brought us facism and the Nazis. Why should we be so eager to follow in these kinds of footsteps? Already we are hearing of people being lashed out at by the EU for merely speaking out against the EU.
Sounds like 1984 to me - "obedience is freedom" or somesuch. It's giant lumbering soon-to-be-dictatorships like this that America needs to stay as far away as possible from - this includes the U.N. - the EU is the testing ground for many of the U.N.'s plans, IMHO. If the U.N. succeeds in its grand design, any sovereign qualities a country might have will be null and void (ie, no freedom of speech, no right to keep and bear arms, etc.). We are already seeing freedom of speech being stamped out in the EU and I'm sure it will only snowball.
Who benefits from this tracking of money? Besides those in government positions? Oh, sure, the usual spectres will be held up as the reasons: terrorists, drug smugglers, and child porn rings. But, what are the REAL reasons to track money to this degree of accuracy? Hmmm? Yes, EU is marching towards a full-on regime. Hopefully, weasely little bureaucrats in America don't try this here. That "Know Your Customer" crap they tried to pass here a while ago looks like small potatoes compared to this. You see, it's not about those spectres that are always raised - it's about making sure they can collect all the taxes they can, or having the ability to know where all your assets are, and possibly seize them - in other words, to control your life as much as possible.
I thought I read something a while ago that stated that some of these countries (including traditional hoarders like Switzerland) were considering or beginning to sell of off their stock piles of gold as the price of it remained weak. This of course keeps the price weak. Finally, it could hurt the US which has one of the biggest lodes of gold (at Fort Knox?).
The question of whether the Euro is backed by precious metals is interesting: current stocks would presumably be held at a national level, but the ECB is outside of this at the EU level. If one of the EU-11 decides to sell of its gold supply, how does effect the others?
Very interesting article. Thanks for posting a link to it. As a Brit, I've seen the benefits that have come from having a free-floating currency outside of the exchange mechanism (although Britain entered the ERM at too high a level). As a future Canadian who has lived in the US, I see how continued currency devaluation can offset differences in productivity gains... Canadians will have to make some lifestyle changes if in the future they want to ditch their dollar in favour of the USD (something I've seen discussed alongside polls in the newspaper).
;)
It's funny: I had a big discussion with my wife about 6 weeks ago about this very issue of fixed exchanged rates. I claimed that it is very hard to make it work, and in most cases it will fail. She used Argentina as an example of it working. I suggested that it would eventually fail there too... little did I guess that it would happen so soon! Another interesting country is China: an American friend of mine visited there two years ago. He said there are two ways of exchanging money there: via a government sanctioned location at their controlled exchange rate, or on the black market at a more realistic exchange rate. It will be interesting to see what happens to them in a few years time.
As for the USD vs Euro... sorry, I went off on a bit of a tangent, didn't I?
You've gotta have an antenna in order to read the chip after you've induced the AC current in the coil, right? Disable the antenna, and voila -- you've reduced the range of the bill's ability to be read, but it would still be accepted at the store if the bill was close enough.
Besides, what happens when your bill worked when you got it, but now doesn't. Do you lose your $20? $200? $500? Can you not spend it?
Bills will quickly go away if that's the case. I think the serial number should be used and scanned (and hell, make up a way to validate a serial number that's complex!). If you can't read the serial, then you should get a new bill. Technology is an interesting solution, but technology is also easily defeated by the intelligent tinkering community that lives here.
Modifying, manipulating and deleting a log on a bill will be easy, but if the bill is scanned at every location and the logs are held by the companies that take the bills, rather than the bill itself, then it would be difficult but possible to follow the bill -- just supena (sp) the records for the suspect bill's serial, and if anyone has it, they will cough it up -- time, date used, etc.
Plus, it could help to kill counterfeiting, using the printed serial. The Gov't could maintain a database of in-circulation valid serial numbers. If its not there, it's counterfeit. If it is, but has recently been requested at another location, it could return a "Valid but questionable" response, giving the clerk the notice that that serial was requested recently and far away location-wise.
However, securing that data would be difficult, and in the wrong hands, could be very destructive to either a person, a business or the government (or even our national security! Who know's how...)
Peter
TossableDigits.com: Temporary Phone Numb
The USA, despite its poor track record under the current administration, is the only country I would trust not to invade our lives through the currency we use.
And what track record is that? I must have missed the memo. IIRC, the "Know Your Customer" legislation was something that was almost slipped in under the radar during the Clinton administration. Clinton also continued to escalate the War on Some Drugs spending like never before. All these machinations were set in motion long before his tenure, but his administration didn't do much to stop them, either. Oh yeah, then there's the Clipper chip. I bet ol' Bill would have lo-o-o-ved the ability to track every dollar being spent. Don't get me wrong: I bet Bush would, too. The price of freedom (and, I would add, privacy) is constant vigilance, and we must always watch these folks in power.
Maybe you are referring to the possible war tribunals and folks being detained for questioning - but you'll notice that we haven't had any successful attacks on us lately (well, discounting the much-overlooked terrorism in this country from stupid terrorist groups like ELF) - also, some of the folks that the left was screaming so much about have been questioned and released - AND many of these folks aren't even citizens, so where's the problem here? Look, I think that we shouldn't let things get out of hand, and gov't must always be held accountable and questioned, etc., but I think all this talk over Ashcroft "shredding the Constitution" and other such hysteria from (mostly) Democrats is just pure liberal spin. There is clearly a historical precedent that Ashcroft is following, and what he is doing is quite restrained. This is just another stab at trying to make Bush look bad - the Democrats desperately need/want this; that's why they are trying to keep the recession around as long as possible, and that's why they are trying to demonize Ashcroft. Nothing more, nothing less.
Plus, it could help to kill counterfeiting, using the printed serial. The Gov't could maintain a database of in-circulation valid serial numbers. If its not there, it's counterfeit
They can already do that, as they know which notes are issued. In some of the numismatic magazines, they even run tables of which serial number groups have been issued.
Some countries don't sequentially number their notes, from what I've heard. This will stop forgers who start changing serial numbers on their fakes without careful research, but it doesn't stop someone from running off ten notes with the same-- legitimate-- number and spending them in ten different locations.
Last: What does the amount of civil rights organizations have to do with this? Are there really more of such organizations in the US (as compared to the EU)? Please give me some facts. And then think about why this could be....maybe they're simply needed more in the US?
Can't speak for the US/Europe numbers in civil rights organizations, but the overwhelming amount of "civil rights" groups we have now seem more interested in pushing radical agendas and/or extorting money from corporations, since they've largely achieved their original goals - now they are just industries, for the most part. And with all the PC nonsense flying about, it's almost impossible to shine the light of truth on these folks without getting accused of "hate speech".
The ACLU is so damned concerned about someone maybe mentioning God in public schools, for example, and I don't remember a PEEP from them when the Know Your Customer legislation was on the table. Jesse Jackson's Rainbow Coalition seems to be landing his buddies lots of cash money, but doing little about, say, getting vouchers for inner-city kids to be able to have selection for schools. NOW bent over and grabbed their ankles for Bill Clinton when he was accused of rape - even though it would seem he would represent all they should denounce, at least on an individual level. The NAACP even claimed Bill Clinton was an "alpha male" and should enjoy the spoils of such. Once again, selling themselves out for the support his administration gave them. Yes, these are the organizations that claim to look out for the little guy. When they are not doing things like the above, they are demanding special treatment that flies in the face of equality. Many do it while stuffing their own pockets full of money and still maintaining tax exempt status. I wouldn't count on too much of an outcry from any of these guys over an RF-enabled currency here.
Aww, no more unmarked bills?
Whats gonna happen when I go swimming after lunch in the summer and I forgot my wallet in my pocket?*Sizzle*
Or what if you are immensely overweight?
*Crunch*
What if you leave it in the sun and it gets too hot?
*Sizzle*
Just leave it as it is. Its fine.
In some ways, high-tech security is a poor choice for currency. If one needs expensive or propriatery equipment to test the security features, it becomes likely that there will be large groups without this equipment. These people then become very vulnerable to fraud. This is especially important for a currency like the US dollar or the Euro, which will likely serve as a store of wealth in underdeveloped countries, where the test equipment will be even scarcer.
The best security features for currency are those that can take advantadge of the testing mechanisms we already have-- our senses. Teach consumers what to look for-- things like special inks, front-to-back alignment, unusual colours, watermarks, design details, even the feel of the paper. That way, you have several hundred million people ready to say "Call me silly, but I don't think they decided to put Richard Stallman on the 200-Euro note!", rather than relying on a few (hundred) thousand "Spishak Euro Tester and Sausage Fryers" which may, or may not, be tripped before many people are left holding bogus notes.
The fundamental line of defence of the monetary system is consumers who can recognize what's right and what's suspicious. You can put a 500-LED Bank of Outer Floogistan logo (just plug the note into a mains outlet to test) on the notes if you want, but if people don't know what to look for (or don't have the equipment to look for it), it creates a crevice for counterfeiting that can undermine the currency.
long k[]={0,178};char*p=&k[1]; main(){while(p---k)putchar (72+((k[1]>>(p-k)*2)&3|(!((p-k)&1)
...?
.c file, gcc declines to compile it, giving the message: "Invalid operands to binary -", which makes sense because p and k are pointers to different types (of different sizes). Would you care to submit a correction? :-)
Who could resist trying your sig
But when I put it into a
Obviously you dont have any clue about the motives behind the Euro.
a) a single currency for western Europe makes western europe less vulnerable to exchange rate speculations like it happened in the past (Lira etc...)
b) the year the euro has existed has been giving the whole region stability in a slowing economy
c) exchanging every few weeks you go to a neighboring country is a pain. Every european has at least coins from 2-3 different countries around somewhere.
d) prices will be easier to compare so that costs and living standards in the Euro zone in the long term will equal each other out.
e) the Euro is only a step towards the long goal of some kind of united states of Europe. There are other steps done as well but in the long term there will be a single EU country
The EMU does not have a federal government ;-)
Afaik the euro notes are property of the ECB.
This sig is a true statement, but I cannot prove it.
of a story by neil stephenson or william gibson (forgot who and which, though).
people there avoided dollar bills because they were all bugged.
He was just talking about serial number tracking, not end user/merchant value exchange.
In the same fashion, you could modify the serial number or the proposed barcode to read something other than what it was. In the same fashion, someone may find out how to 'glitch' the RFID to read something else..
Sell wallets with RFID's embedded in them and line the money pocket with some disruptive metal.
I have heard conflicting stories about reading multiple signals very close to each other (such as papers right next to each other), but I believe the above should work.
In any case, this should be one of the things they should be testing the feasibility of these notes.
I buy a jacket at a garage sale, someone should be counting the money I give them as income
It only technically/legally needs to be reported as income if the money received for the jacket exceeds the original cost. For example - I buy a leather jacket for $100 in 1990 and sell it at a garage sales in 2001 for $50. Since $50 is less than $100, I do not owe any income (or capital gains) tax. Now sales tax may be another story, but that varies by location.
Beware of Sleestak
Coins do not cost more to mint than they are worth. When this happens, the government changes the composition of the coins. U.S. cents used to be made of bronze; now they are made of plated zinc. Any leftover bronze cents are worth a little more than a cent in metal content but probably not enough to melt your collection and try to find a buyer. During World War II, cents were made of steel, because copper was in short supply. Nickles used to be mostly nickel; now they contain quite a lot of copper. Quarters and dimes have been sandwiched for some time; they used to be solid.
One of the reasons that none of the proposals to eliminate the U.S. cent has made it is that the U.S. mint makes a 26 million dollar profit every year off of them.
In other words, it's security though obscurity, and very bad example of that. It would be like giving everyone except thieves master keys to everyone's house.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
As a former taco bell employee I really have to doubt that taco bell would ever refuse anyone entry into their restraunt during the hours they're open.
The only food service industry I know that runs blacklists are pizza delivery. The drivers invent secret codes to enter into the computer system to rank how well people tip. Managment is supposed to prevent this, but if you know a place where they give you no tip you'll find a way to blacklist them so thier next order is cold or whatever. OTOH you don't usually tell other drivers your code system and if people tip good you bring them thier pizza's first. Smart money won't help delivery drivers, but I have to imagine PDAs will -- when they have portable scanners and gigabytes of storage.
Let's put on our thinkin' caps and come up with ways to destroy these privacy-invading pieces of silicon!
1) Insert bill into bowl of water, place bowl in microwave. Activate microwave... Remove bill, dry bill.
2) Acquire hammer. Starting at upper left hand corner of bill, start smashing bill with hammer. Move right after each smash, then return to left edge after reaching right edge. Repeat until lower right hand edge of bill reached. Repeat once or twice for good measure.
3) Wear sunglasses. Hold bill up to bright light. Locate chip location. Acquire x-acto knife to perimeter of chip. Remove chip. Apply chip to toilet, flush. (gee that bill sure does have rapid velocity!)
4) Acquire brick approximate size of bill. Place bill on ground. Smash brick on bill several times.
5) Bowling balls? Steam rollers? Rolling pins? Car tires? Truck Tires? Bicycle tires? Plastic wheels from skateboards or roller blades?
6) Ovens? Not quite hot enough to ignite the paper, but hot enough to melt the chip... "Set to 350 for 20 minutes, and allow to cool by window..."
7) One drop of battery acid on chip?
8) Cut the antenna wires leading from chip?
On a divergent note, it's a good thing that this is happening in the EU. If it happened in the USA, those proposed wallet scanners that crooks would use to target people would be illegal under the DMCA!
Then again - that is in the land where a 17 inch monitor is a half grown lizard.
The article is extrapolating WAY too far from what they know.
Now people are ink-jetting integrated circuits onto paper, it's interesting to try that for this application.
Already reasonably useful would be a way to easily identify individual bills once they are back at the bank.
They started putting barcodes on the Dutch notes a while back. This would suffice for that purpose. I'm not sure wether the Euros will have those.
I'm not sure what an RF ID would help. Would every shop suddenly have an RFID tag reader? No.
They also speculate something about recording transactions. Well, it's going to be tricky to hide those batteries and GPS reciever in the banknote....
Roger.
We should switch to a Cocaine standard. That stuff never depreciates...
That would, of course, make Columbia the new economic super-power - but I digress.
-A.C.