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USA Busted Trying to Bug China's Presidential 767
morcheeba writes "A new Boeing 767-300ER was refitted to become China's presidental aircraft. What goes into a plane like this? Besides the bedroom, sitting room, bath with a shower, there was a 48" TV, satellite communications, anti-missile defense systems and advanced avionics. And oh yeah, numerous high-tech listening devices. Wonder how those got in. Read the article at washingtonpost.com." CD: The question is, what was the bug in the headboard for?
Don't let the CIA bite.
Maybe they set their watches wrong, and are now set to Apr 1st?
Could it be true?
Make even shorter URLs - 8LN.org
The bug in the headboard? For picking up pillow talk, obviously.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Ummmm I'm just waiting for the washingtonpost to actually post these stories in their paper before I believe them ... and I would really like to see other sources.
Right now it's looking like someone is having fun with their systems and submitting the faked stories to slashdot. I mean really ... since when does slashdot link to any paper besides the (Registration Required) NY Times?
Ignore the "p2p is theft" trolls, they're just uninformed
How's M$ software like chineese plains?
Both are filled with bugs that are hack by the Chineese.
Payback for CodeRed anyone?
Make even shorter URLs - 8LN.org
Since so many things are manufactured in China and exported to the USA, who's to say that the Chinese haven't been doing this for years? I think it would be very easy to covertly place bugs in things the president has in the Oval Office or Air Force One (electronics, etc.) They just might be doing it a lot more effectively.
The future isn't what it used to be.
OK, where can I buy one of these (without the listning devices) and how much would it cost?
/* FUCK - The F-word is here so that you can grep for it */
It's not a bug, it's an undocumented feature.
What the hell? That is a really bad analogy. There would be no reason to get the helicopters fixed by Al Quida. China is getting planes from one of the only places on earth where they produce them; they have to get them from somewhere. China buying planes from Boeing is logical, unlike your analogy.
Buying a Dell computer is equivalent to dropping the soap in a prison shower.
those washington post articles have been wonky lately. I'm just waiting for China's official statement on the whole situation to appear in this week's national enquirer...
This aircraft may belong to the chief of state but what aircraft does the head of government use?
--Metrollica
That is an odd thing to complain about when there are so many other glaring human rights problems that are much more serious in china.
Anarchists never rule
This is not exclusive to China, it happens everywhere. (yes, in the US too).
Makes me wonder where the United States get's off. We complained when the Soviets bugged the embassy they were building for it in the former Soviet Union. Then it turns around and does this. Welcome to the Neo-Soviet Union comrads!
-
Steve's Computer Service, Hobbs, NM
Whether this is true or not does not matter. China figured that they overpaid for the work on the plane. The Chinese government paid $30 million to the Chinese Air Force, who paid the American firms $10,000,000 to do the job. What's a great way to get out of paying your bills? If you're a big nuclear superpower, just make an international incident out of it!
Cryptnotic
My other first post is car post.
We've got the technology; the bugs, the transmitters, the surveillance airplanes...
What do the Chinese have? Wen-Ho Lee?
I guess the Chinese are winning... -_-
The CIA bugs everyone regardless of if they are our enemy or not. As a US citizen I'm a little worried that the CIA is slipping and got busted, I'm sure that a lot of my hard earned tax dollars funded this mishap.
We all know countless stories have come from pillow talk. A tryst between a reporter and a govermental official is not unheard of, though I am not sure you could get away with it on a government airplane. Perhaps they were hoping to eavesdrop on the President recounting his day to his wife, you never know what night get said.
Just a thought.
-OctaneZ
You know I've often wondered how countries can trust US equipment sold to them (or Russian equipment, etc): Who says that the day Saudi Arabia pisses the US off all of their F15s might respond to the "die now" signal and plummet to the ground? If I were ever to buy hardware from a country other than my own I'd go through every single mm of it with a fine tooth comb, and then I'd reflash every piece of circuitry, etc: There is no way I'd ever trust what was delivered. Sorta defeats the premise of military trade, but perhaps that's a good thing.
If this story is true then this will be a disaster for US military and commercial companies: Already there is a world wary of Echelon, but if now they have to worry about every other device being trojan horsed. Having said that, the next time you drink from that "made in China" cup, think to yourself "Would it be in their national interest to put a chemical that slowly leaches into Westerner's systems, causing cancer or just stupifying the society (i.e. lead)."
What are the odds that these bugs were put there to be found. Now China will take the plane apart looking for bugs and when they are sure there are no more, there is a good chance that it will go back into service for its intend use. Is the CIA good enough that there will still be working bugs on the plane after its declared clean?
If there are in fact bugs on China's presidential jet then it is not the fault of the US. Boeing is not a division of the United States government, it's a private corporation that makes its own decisions. No one is to blame but the executives at Boeing. If the wheel fell off your new BMW would you blame the German government??
Bugging products you sell is certainly not a friendly business practice. I suggest that China take its business to a company that more appreciates it such as AirBus.
...was for Cinemax's new "World Leaders: EXPOSED" series. Coming this fall. You don't wanna know what they caught Jean Chretien doing -- or DO you?
- A.P.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
Is this a surprise? Gotta wonder how much of the tech China bought during the Clinton administration is booby-trapped
Well, the other side will own up to it... now for the CIA....
---
Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
(I read with sigs off.)
The US has also used the following nifty tricks to spy on its enemies and its allies:
1. The ambassador in some Communist country (maybe even the USSR, I don't remember exactly which) would avoid potential bugs in his office by holding conversations on the balcony outside. Intelligence officials noticed there was often a lot of branches on the ground, so they put together a fake tree branch containing a listening device and planted it outside the balcony. Eventually a gardener picked it up, but said intelligence officials grabbed it out of the trash, dusted it off, and replanted it.
2. When Khruschev came to visit the US during the 1960s, the CIA spent $2 million to divert the plumbing to his hotel bathroom to a special container so they could analyze his fecal matter. Apparently they were hoping to find out if rumors he had cancer were true. The $2 million conclusion? Khruschev needed more fibre in his diet.
3. The Cabinet room in Ottawa (the capital of Canada for the ignorant) has special curtains that are always drawn. The reason? The US Embassy (an ugly postmodern glass-and-steel combo with foot-thick windows) is just across the street, and happens to have a ton of spying equipment on the roof, including laser devices capable of picking up subtle vibrations of windows and passing the data to a computer that spits out a coherent version of the conversation.
4. The CIA (although I thought the NRO - National Reconnaissance Office - ran American spy satellite operations) is rumored to have at least one satellite that has the space version of stealth technology. This satellite reportedly uses mirrors to foil visual detection from the ground, thereby enabling to spy on without knowing he is being watched.
What's the bug in the bathroom for? Some things you just don't want to listen to, no matter what intelligence you might gain!
From Lenin to Jiang Zemin is obviously not progress.
farewell my concubine
to live
Qui Ju
life on a string
raise the red lantern
red firecracker, green firecracker
raise the red lantern
Historically, most of the people have been poor. All the way from Ching dynasty to the present. I doubt having bugs in the plane will really create additional problems as the article stated. Both government already expect this kind of behavior. They're simply using it to embarras Bush and the administration.
A CIA spokesman, Bill Harlow, declined to comment on the report, saying, "We never comment on allegations like these, as a matter of policy."
...did you by chance work for Microsoft before?
doesn't mean its true.
As for me, if it turns out to be true, I'm glad at least that we, the USA, are starting to push back a bit.
I'm still working on a clever footer.
CIA agent to Boeing exec, after arriving at Boeing facility at midnight: "Hi, we're taking over your facility for the next 8 hours for a matter of national security. Go home. If you tell anyone about this, you'll be put in jail for the rest of your life."
Boeing exec: "Uh.... ok.... uh...."
Probably not too much more complicated than that.
q:]
MadCow.
I used to have a sig, but I set it free and it never came back.
Okay, it's certainly the most likely scenario that the CIA would bug this plane, but I can't help but wonder if it isn't too obvious? Besides isn't 20+ bugs a little overkill? With that many you're almost certain to get caught and the you'd have to really want the intelligence enough that you'd hope a few wouldn't get found.
So what are the alternatives? I suppose there are a few other countries with the technology, and a few that might want to spy on China. India might be the next most likely, but they still seem pretty unlikely to be in a position to pull it off. Perhaps it was an inside job then? Maybe China wants a diplomatic incident? Or, maybe their spy agency would be interested in bugging their own president?
Since no one ever confesses in these situations, and it's unlikely that there will ever be enough proof to really say who accomplished this or how. My money is still on the CIA though, but it forces me to wonder whether the administration is a bit more frightened than they let on? I mean what does it really say if the intelligence is so valuable that they'd risk an almost certain diplomatic incident by using so many bugs on the hope a few bugs would remain undiscovered.
On the other hand, it's equally fair to wonder whether the US wants a diplomatic incident? But I have a hard time justifying that one in these times. Isn't terrorism a good enough evil for the 21st century?
Well you know we had to try. If they didn't try, I'd want my money back. This is much less embarassing than the "tunnel beneath the Russian Embasy in Washington."
Name one communist country where the vanguard of the proletariat didn't use its power to gain material advantages.
Just ask Trotsky.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
China doesn't give Communism a bad name, Communism gives Communism a bad name. Can you name a single Communist nation that you would hold up as a shining beacon to the rest of the world?
Now, a certain degree of socialism, on the other hand... I'm down with that.
China: Nuclear Arms
America: Espionage
Great, I am certain this double standard will go over quite well with arms negotiations.
Even the Politburo concurs with Process of Elimination http://process-of-elimination.net
Pretzels part of the menu?
Buy a Nintendo DS Lite
CIA Spook: "Boss, we've heard some rather interesting transmissions from the Chinease leader's bedroom"
Head Spook: "Please, don't tell me if this is gonna be some more 'Happy Fun Time' stuff with him and his missus."
CIA Spook: "No, sir, we have the translation for you, right here."
++++++++Begin Transcript****TOP SECRET+++++++
"HAHAHHAHAHAHAAHA! YUO IZ OWN3D HAHAHAHAHAH COCKSUCKER HAHAHAHAHAHA DUMB LAMAZ, ALWAYS PLAYING HW GUY! HAVEN'T YOU GOT A 1337 RIG LIKE ME? I IZ USING VIRTUAL PC ON MY WICKED 233 IMAC!!!! I CAN RUN TEAMFORTRESS ON UNIX, THAT'S LIKE LINUX, WHAT ALL THE SMART KIDS USE, BUT, NOT AS GAY HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!"
++++++End Transcript**********************
This is not suprising: the US spies on everyone, including allies (yes, even Britain.) (In fact, I saw a documentary the other day about how we bugged the Xerox machine at the Soviet embassy, and got snapshots of all their documents for years.) So while it may be a little embarrassing to get caught, it isn't a revelation. China shouldn't take it personally--we spy on everyone.
Of course, that doesn't mean spying is moral or ethical--that is another discussion entirely.
The lessons to take away are what was done wrong that led to the bugs being discovered.
dominionrd.blogspot.com - Restaurants on
China doesn't give Communism a bad name, Communism gives Communism a bad name. Can you name a single Communist nation that you would hold up as a shining beacon to the rest of the world?
All so-called "Communist" nations are about as far from true Communism as you can get, and are nothing more than petty dictatorships that operate under the guise of being Communist. I find it amazing most people fail to realize this.
It was a joke.
That was supposed to be a joke? Please dont attempt to make jokes when you are obviously not capable of being funny in any form. I can assure you that was the worst joke I have ever heard.
Your intellect is comparable to that of a garden tool
Please dont try to pull this typical slashdot-esque superiority bullshit routine. First of all, you are too much of a little girl to even make this claim under a real account. Second, you have no grounds to make that insult Your logic is faulty in every sense. You base this on the fact that I didnt get your "joke". You should realize that when you post shit like that we cannot see you winking. The only way one could ever make this joke in real life would be to put it in to a sarcastic context. The truth is, the only thing here that is a joke is you. You should think for a second before you go ahead and submit this trash to the comments section for a story.
Please get off of AOL and learn how things are done.
Buying a Dell computer is equivalent to dropping the soap in a prison shower.
(start sarcasm here) Publicly undermining the integrity of our great nation while at war with a nation, which, according to many accounts, recieved funding from China. Gee. Why would we bug China? (end sarcasm here) They're funding terrorist groups. The Post can't help itself. This type of expose thrives on diminishing the appearance of government, but in fact, such tactics are necessary to the welfare of our nation.
When the new Chinese embassy was built in Canberra, Australia, the Australian intelligence agencies attempted to riddle the building with bugs. Unfortunately, they got caught and it made the national papers. However, the Chinese barely made a squeak about it in public. I think we can safely assume they try to do the same things to us.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
Nah, communism did that for itself. Come on - Marx wrote books to pay for his kids education, travel, etc. then on to Lenin, Stalin, and everything that made russia what it is today (which is: not a communist country).
Communism is a really interesting idea, and a very noble set of ideals. But what it comes down to is controlling people, and all it takes when you have power is one person to use it and all those lofty goals are subverted.
Final note: in business or in government, don't trust 5 year plans that don't have month-by-month goals. 'Cause no-one can procrastinate that much and still do the work.
-Peter
== Just my opinion(s)
Last year, the People's Daily, the official Communist Party newspaper, carried an editorial in which it SAID the import of high-tech products from the West constituted a security risk because Western governments would place secret codes or technical Trojan horses inside the products to collect intelligence.
So do the Communists think they are the only ones having their privacy invaded by the Western government?? What about the bill that was passed after 9/11 that allows the U.S. government to implant back doors into encryption? By the people, for the people, my ass.
as you can imagine. I've heard a rumor when I was working for IB? in 1994 but since I couldn't find proof of it so take it a grain of salt.
A report saying that H? has shipped to Middle East some printers which have suspicious chips hidden. It was discovered by China's agents. Due to embargo China had problems getting many advanced equipment thus must rely on their 'partners' to resell some of them, and discovered the case.
Rumor said that these chips are not merely listening devices, but for more dangerous missile-guided purpose.
Soon after this instance Microsoft shipped software that included anti-communist messages.
China has already lost much confidence in using US' technology since.
China gives communism a bad name
Which country gives communism a good name then? Seriously I'm curious.
Many people who are `anti-communism' are so not because the dreamed premise is bad, but rather because practically it always seems to devolve into China, the USSR, North Korea, etc. See the book Animal Farm : It's called human nature and it is virtually inevitable in such a scenario.
Maybe China forgot that the extra $20 million they spent were for the bugs.
Typical American.
What do you expect when you get your plane refitted in an "enemy" nation? A hug?
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
Goddamnit, noone wins in nuclear war. Period.
Now to make the obvious WarGames reference:
"Interesting game. The only way to win is not to play."
"CD: The question is, what was the bug in the headboard for?"
All Your Headboard Are Belong to Us
=)
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur
In 1917, the Russians were a pre-industrialized nation of very poor and very ignorant peasants.
By 1943, the USSR had built up the industrial infrastructure necessary to open up a can-o-whopass on the Nazis. No small achievement.
In the 60s, the USSR put the first satellite in orbit, the first man in space, and probably would have beat the US to the moon if Chief Designer Korolyev hadn't died and the N-2 program hadn't been so badly botched.
They had the whole Western world quaking in their boots for fifty years. The USSR consistently put forward great advances physics and mathematics, and their engineers were among the best in the world.
Say what you will about the excesses of Stalin and his succesors, no one denies them. Dictators are antithetical to true communism, and modern communist do well to disown Stalin, Mao, and to a certain degree, Castro. Yet cannot we deny the scientific, social, educational and industrial achievements of the USSR, nor deny that, unlike the current governments of some prosperous nations, the Soviets under Lenin actually tried to do good by the little people.
THS
---
"Poor girl looks as confused as a blind lesbian in a fish market." - Simon R. Green
In the words of the great Homer J Simpsons, "In theory! In theory, communism works, in theory."
What?
So saith Frederick Engels. In summary, you need a state to take the extant wealth from its owners and to transition to a classless society where the state concerns itself merely with administration of production.
So, the first step in true Communism is to take over the state. Even the Communist Manifesto acknowledges that this must be done through violent revolution, because the capitalists running the show have stacked the deck so heavily in their favor in the politcal arena.
But violent revolution doesn't result in you taking over the state... it results in the state being destroyed, and in need of rebuilding. Of course, this is just a transitional state, so it doesn't need to be anything too fancy. And it needs to be small and efficient, so it can be reduced to factory and farm management as rapidly as possible. And of course, only the leaders of the revolution are trustworthy enough to be given any power in this state.
So the second step in the development of a true Communist system is a dictatorship. It's supposed to be a benign dictatorship where the man in charge steps down as soon as the means of production are back in the people's hands, but as the entire world knows from experience that never happens.
The problem with true Communism, comrade, is that you never get past the second step.
Hacked by Americans!
(* The U.S. spys on everybody, including friends, so how did they think they would send an airplane back to the U.S. and not have the CIA get their hands on it? *)
The article said that Chinese security guards watched the entire retrofitting.
It appears US hired a lot of card-trick magicians or something to pull that off.
Table-ized A.I.
Rather than searching the plane to make sure all bugs/listening-devices are discovered, it would be easier just to fit a cone of silence
"What's that Chief?!"
"I'm sorry Max, you'll have to speak up!"
:)
When a country has found itself being spied on like this, it is far less likely that they will lash out at the perpetrating nation. Rather, they will be upset with their own people who allowed the lapse in security. That countries will attempt to spy on others is a given nowadays; it's not an act of war or an aggressive thing. I can just imagine China's leadership: "Oh, those sly Americans are still up to their clever tricks. Now who's the dead man who fucked up and let it happen?"
-------------------------
Stupid people suck.
So, a regime that murders tens of millions of the people it rules through forced starvation doesn't bother you, but when that regime demonstrates hypocrisy, you have a problem all of a sudden?
I'm just boggling at the idea of "giving communism a bad name." It's like calling the Devil himself a "meanie".
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
After that incident, I could see the U.S. wanting to "get back" at the Chinese. Maybe they put the bugs there specifically so that they would be found, or just because they think the Chinese like taking apart planes. You could see it as an "international practical joke".
This is of course, assuming that the bugs were actually there. Right now, all we have to go on is second hand statements from the Chinese military. Personally, I think it is more likely that they are trying to get out of paying the bill.
Cryptnotic
My other first post is car post.
So they can hear Xiang sob over his tiny, tiny Chinese penis.
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
I've figured it all out. The US has been spying on China for quite some time (the new cold war?) and I know what they want. I can't believe I didn't discover this fact when the US spy plane went down over China. They want the infamous egg salad recipe. So much trouble for such a small item.
(* Besides isn't 20+ bugs a little overkill? With that many you're almost certain to get caught... *)
Perhaps each department planted its own bug without coordinating with the other departments.
Or, perhaps many other countries planted a bug of their own in the same plane.
How would the French know if the CIA already planted one, for example? (or care)
China should make money off of that by starting a bug/spy museum. I would rather pay to see actual spy widgets than Disney Land.
I visited China once. Their "off limits" signs sometimes say "no into".
Table-ized A.I.
Way back when Xerox sold copiers to the Soviets, they installed little microfilm cameras in them. The Soviets paid Xerox for maintenance contracts. The field technicians who serviced the copiers would secretly replace the microfilm cannisters when they changed the ink cartridges. The film cannisters were given to the US government as part of a separate service contract with the US.
Eventually, the Soviets figured out the ruse.
Obviously, the US government has taken advantage of US technology to bug the Chinese plane also. Just shows there is a benefit to being the world's technological leader. All your enemies have to come to the US for parts and service.
I have not doubt our government would pull this. Actually, I can't blame them.
:) Red Flag Linux anyone?
Should we spark up the topic of the NSA key in windows? Remember how China almost banned MS operating systems from government use? I bet they are reconsidering that now.
If you want a job done right you have to do it yourself
Heck, it's not the spying they're taking personally. It's the insult of not bothering to cover your tracks well enough.
To put 20+ bugs in a plane and assume that the Chinese won't find them is simply insulting the Chinese intelligence community and via them, the Chinese government. That's what they're taking personally. It's kind of a "Just how stupid do you think we are?" personal.
That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze
I recently returned from there, and I can tell you it's not nearly that bad. I travelled through the countryside and large cities, and can say that although the standard isn't up to the west it's still very liveable.
People aren't starving by the millions, people aren't generally homeless (though this is a problem for the migrant workers in the large cities, as it is in any number of capitalist countries in south america or asia). By and large, the average standard of living is far better than most of south-east asia.
Now, the issues of political freedom are entirely different. Yes, the oppression of speech and religious freedoms is extreme and prohibitive, and the corruption is significant (though whether it's truly worse than the US is debatable).
Don't blindly jump on a cause without knowing what you're talking about, in this case you look like a fool.
Now to make the obvious WarGames reference:
"Interesting game. The only way to win is not to play."
You know what? That goes double for Russian roulette!
is not that we did it, but that we got caught. China wouldn't pass up on a chance to eavesdrop on our leaders....hell, FRANCE probably wouldn't. But anyone contemplating this kind of move has to consider the risk benefit ratio. What were we risking? Not much. China already knows we spy on them, just as they do us. But getting caught does make us look stupid, and someone's head should role for that.
Ah....but who will Moderate the Meta Moderators?
I can't imagine what, but I bet it had something to do with an inuit carving...
Too bad the Chinese government can't find the people responsible for this and run them over with tanks.
I think a better question is, how did the bug on the headboard get there?
Oh, come on. Do you know how many Americans live in gutters and under bridges, while our president has already taken two months of vacation in his first year in office? Jesus, where do you get off. You think the president of China shouldn't have a shower or a $5000 TV when he goes to conferences that might help decide the fate of the world? Fuck you.
I am sure the fact that we (USA) could sink most of there boats before they got in range of ours and shoot down most of there aircraft before they got in range of ours would have no effect at all??? After all Sheer manpower sure helped Iraq. They where the 3rd largest army at the time...
I'm wondering: were this bugs marked "made in USA"?
Seems silly, but (slightly offtopic): years ago, the US tapped a Soviet military communications cable that was running underwater in some bay somewhere near the Asian Soviet coast. Worked well for a while, but when the Soviets finally discovered the tapping device/recorder, it turned out it was marked "Property of the United States government". Somewhat amusing.
You can read all about it in "Blind Man's Bluff" by Sherry Sontag et al.
MSN 8: Now Microsoft even has bugs in their ad campaigns.
Don't forget, the USSR lost...
We have these things called Facts...
1: The American spy plane was in international waters (as recognized by the rest of the world save China)
2: The pilot of the Chinese plan was killed because he flew too close to a larger plane and ran into it
Which country gives communism a good name then?
Cuba! Great cigars and nice weather! And everybody speaks Spanish!
MSN 8: Now Microsoft even has bugs in their ad campaigns.
Don't confuse Karl Marx with communism. They don't have the word "marxism" for nothing.
Marxism evolved into communism on the one hand, and socialism on the other hand. Communism has not been a great success, partly because it was first implemented in Russia (which had a long history of oppression), and partly because it denies a few basic human impulses, such as greed and the need for religion (I know, those are part of Marxism as well).
Socialism on the other hand has been rather successful in quite a number of cases, especially when it is merged with democracy ("social democracy").
MSN 8: Now Microsoft even has bugs in their ad campaigns.
Don't forget, the USSR lost...
Lost what, the Cold War? Maybe they (Gorbachev) saved themselves and the rest of us from World War III? We'll never know. The US "victory" in the Cold War cost this country dearly: defense spending that took the economy 20 years to recover from.
MSN 8: Now Microsoft even has bugs in their ad campaigns.
But apart from the name Washington which WP seems to misusing i have been analysing their articles for the last three months - seems they get the scoops or they have very imaginative writers - why does this remind me of a Bond Movie? ha?
Trust the US govt? When they have once again proven that they think laws only apply to them when it's to their advantage? (Note - not talking about bugging the plane here).
...
I don't think so.
I can't say my govt (Australia) has had a stellar record, but we're quite simply not big enough to get away with what the US is doing
.. even software.
Any manufactured item which doesn't have it's guts wide open always have the possibility of stuff like this.
It is actually rather impossible to know wether for instance MS-software does not have government requested back doors.
Free software probably also have some risk, because it would be impossible for someone to be sure that the millions of lines of source code, some which are rather difficult to understand, could not have some small back door.
Ok, I found a web page for it!
From the Associated Press, in response to the Enron ordeal:
[snip]
The spokesman [Ari] said Bush is always ``looking out to protect America's jobs and taxpayers' money.'' He noted, for example, that Bush has talked to China about purchasing a Boeing aircraft.
[snip]
I'm always looking in this paper for the dumb shit they report, but this is got to be the funniest thing I've seen in a while.
Of course they want them to buy Boeing aircraft, the special ones.
I must somewhat defend the CIA or whoever did this. I mean, they spy on us... why not spy on them for a change. I'm sure the Chinese have planted a few bugs here and there.
It's just funny they got caught is all.
Get your Unix fortune now!
Whenever I hear people make this argument, I like to point out that capitalism ain't doing so hot, either. And while communism may have never been implemented properly (and it may, in fact, be impossible to do so), socialism does pretty well for itself.
By 1943, the USSR had built up the industrial infrastructure necessary to open up a can-o-whopass on the Nazis. No small achievement.
Please, don't use this as an example. While the Soviets were one of the only countries to repel the Nazis look at the cost to do so. 27,000,000(yes scary when the number is typed out) million soviet people lost their life in WWII. Think about that number for a moment and it will bring chills up your spine.
Space may be the final frontier, but it's made in a Hollywood basement. --Red Hot Chili Peppers, Californication
Why in the name of all that is un-american, would the chinese let a bunch of yankies have _anything_ to do with their leader's transport plane? we all know that the american government cannot be trusted, period, (especially since bush came in). surely they can make their own planes and 48" tv's?
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
Socialism existed long before Karl Marx. The main influence on Socialism was Robert Owen who was the first capitalist mill owner to realise that making people work 14 hours a day for a pittance might be sub-optimal.
Marx's influence on 'Marxism' is probably less than his influence on capitalism. Lenin reinvented Marxism to the extent that their names were hyphenated together 'Marxist-Leninism', which is to say he the influence of Marx on the USSR was similar to that of Christ on the Catholic church under the Borgias.
Marx's influence on capitalism was profound. In the first place he scared victorian society into social reforms by conving them that the alternative was revolution on the French model. Secondly, Marx provided one of the earliest explanations of how capitalism works. It is not unusual to hear some loony right wing Conservative senator unwittingly repeat a Marxist theory.
Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
In other words, the population of Canada.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
It takes a good business man to sell an idiot something he does not need!
And Bush lives as well as an average American?
The point was that communist ideals state that every person should be equal in property and belongings, yet the Head of State of one of the largest "communist" countries in the world has much more property than the people.
>So, the first step in true Communism is to take over the state. Even the Communist Manifesto acknowledges that this must be done through violent revolution, because the capitalists running the show have stacked the deck so heavily in their favor in the politcal arena.
The Russian revolution wasn't violent. And the Communist manifesto never says anything about violent revolutions. Revolutions has always been in defence of democracy.
> But violent revolution doesn't result in you taking over the state... it results in the state being destroyed, and in need of rebuilding. Of course, this is just a transitional state, so it doesn't need to be anything too fancy. And it needs to be small and efficient, so it can be reduced to factory and farm management as rapidly as possible. And of course, only the leaders of the revolution are trustworthy enough to be given any power in this state.
In the Russian revolution the leaders didn't have power over the state. Ordinary people had, but they listened to Lenin, Tryotsky and the others.
> So the second step in the development of a true Communist system is a dictatorship. It's supposed to be a benign dictatorship where the man in charge steps down as soon as the means of production are back in the people's hands, but as the entire world knows from experience that never happens.
Umm, from where have you gotten that?
The first thing that was decided after the Russian revolution was to have a public election to get rid of the dictatorship.
> The problem with true Communism, comrade, is that you never get past the second step.
There is no such second step. So I think you should read a bit more.
/Erik
Erik Dalén
Lenin abolished death sentences in Russia. Stalin took them back.
Read a bit more...
/Erik
Erik Dalén
In the eyes of the chinese govt, this cannot be but another reason not to trust closed source operating systems made in the US.
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Comment removed based on user account deletion
The achievments you mention can not be marginalized, but neither can the fact that those achievments were made possible by ignoring several things. There can be no argument that the former Soviet union conutries are among the most poluted in the world and that the Soviet regime is responsible for several major environmental disaters (Aral Sea for example). By the way - a large number of rusian are still ignorant pheasants living in small cottages and depending on what they them selves can produce as a result of ill-figured priorities!
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Anyone has the specification of a
2x2 cm device that can contact
american spy satellites?
The more time Govenor Bush spends on holiday and the less time he spends in the Whitehouse the better.
The less time he spends working out new schemes to give his cronies corporate welfare and tax breaks the better. His idea of a stimulus bill is giving $254 million tax breaks to Enron and its ilk, even though they haven't paid tax for 4 out of the past 5 years.
Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
I must be missing the point to all of these "Well the US president lives better than I do!" replies. The US isn't communist. Capitalism is all about a handful of people at the top of the economic ladder, and a lot of people at the bottom.
From way back in 10th grade government class, it was my understanding that real communism is all about everyone having the same amount of everything. Of course, such a society doesn't and has never existed. I think that was what the original poster was trying to say.
an you name a single Communist nation that you would hold up as a shining beacon to the rest of the world?
Cuba.
Maybe it was one of the X10 cameras...?
Anyway, you can get the headboard pics and wavs over at alt.binaries.erotica.amateur.chinese.government
I gave myself to Jesus, but now he never calls
There is a good reason you put 20+ bugs on the aircraft.
You know the Chinese will inspect the aircraft with a fine tooth comb - they aren't stupid. So, one of two possible outcomes:
So the trick is to plant N+M bugs, making sure that they are all so difficult to find that the Chinese are likely to only find N+X bugs, where X<M.
As for the issues of spying - EVERYBODY SPYS ON EVERYBODY ELSE. That's how the game is played. You don't get pissed when you get fragged on "the hill" when you are playing King of the Hill (unless you are a complete lamer), and you don't get pissed when you find you are being spyed on by another contry. However, you DO make political hay of the event - that's part of the game as well.
If we DIDN'T spy on everyone else, if we DIDN'T bitch when we caught them spying on us, then the rest of the world would point at us and make "googley" circles around their temples.
www.eFax.com are spammers
Let's look at this from the conspiratory angle:
1) china begins building up nuclear arms
2) china buys us-made jet from boeing, a company that could use ANY business
3) china pays $30 mill for a $10 mill job
4) bush chokes on a pretzel
6) the plane gets bugged (wow, what a surprise...)
7) china makes a big deal about this...
the only conclusion that makes any sense is that china wants baywatch
It sounds like somebody has been reading David Gerrold's _War_on_the_Chtorr_ series.
Um things like this have been going on for years, during the cold war the cia had xerox implant a survelance device into the copier that was installed in the russian embassy, apparently it provided information for quite a long time. (Thanks discovery channel documentary and my personal boredom)
I hear the secrets that you keep
When you're talking in your sleep
Dictators are antithetical to true communism, and modern communist do well to disown Stalin, Mao, and to a certain degree, Castro.
The problem is that they didn't disown them when they ruled their countries. They disown them NOW. That's a little too late in my book.
Funny thing:
The leader of the Norwegian Communist Party (NKP) wrote in 1980 (82?) a book where he admitted their mistakes in supporting the various communist dictators. However, he also pointed out that not all was lost: Ceaucescu in Rumenia was a promising leader, he claimed, without the faults of Stalin, Lenin and the others.
Of course, these days, no communist will say Ceaucescu was a beacon for the communist world. I wonder who's their favorite cock today?
...to have joined the Mile High Club much earlier in life, and simply be - ahem - maintaining my membership status while in my eighties. 62 years is too damn long to wait, sorry. Seriously though, if Ben Franklin was bonking french court chicks while a diplomat in France during the Revolutionary War, why can't this guy be enjoying one of the perks of power? Good ole' Ben was, I think, in his seventies at the time.
One last thought: if I were the Chinese premier, I would be flattered the CIA thought I'd still be an active member of the mile-high club.
I'm the stranger...posting to
It seems like the purchasing party always finds bugs in these kinds of deals. In fact, the Chinese probably wouldn't have been happy stripping the plane apart until they found at least one bug.
So, if your the CIA, the obvious thing to do is plant a few bugs were they will be found....and hide the others much better.
Kind thoughts do not change the world
In all seriousness, would YOU recommend sending our Air Force One to China for refitting? Of course not. It would be an obvious security breach. Hence the "Duh."
It's one thing to buy toys and trinkets from a hostile country, another to give your most important military air vehicle over to them to refit. That's just stupid.
And as far as those toys and trinkets go, we shouldn't even be buying them from China. McDonald's Happy Meal toys -- what could be more American than a Happy Meal? -- are made mostly in terribly unsafe factories by young Chinese women and girls who are fired if they try to unionize.
When another Chinese toy factory burned down a couple years ago (it happens a lot) several workers died choking on poisonous smoke because there was only door out of the factory. "Witnesses interviewed by Guangdong television said the workers were unable to escape because the windows were sealed by metal screens to prevent theft." Many women have died from handling toxic chemicals without being provided with the proper education or necessary protection. Many more are breathing in chemicals every day which are known carcinogens.
In America, we wouldn't let anyone work in these conditions, yet we let corporations manufacture and import goods that were produced under such conditions.
So, yeah. I feel no pity for the Chinese government. They deserve what they get and more. But I wish the same retribution on Corporate America for sacrificing people's lives and safety for cheaper Barbies.
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
This was explained in another Slashdot story. They were installed by another branch of the Chinese government to monitor the email and web surfing on the plane..
;-)
I think that the fact that 27 million Soviets died in the war, and that the USSR actually had to fight the Nazis on their own soil should be taken into account by more of the idiots who continually say, "Communism Sux! Look who won the cold war."
The only reason Russia was not wiped off the map by the Nazis is AMERICAN-provided armamaments (which we were never paid for) and AMERICAN military support for the Allies in general.
Sure, 27 million commies may have died fighting the Nazis. But at least twice that many died in COMMUNIST soviet prisons, labor camps, political executions, mass starvation, and so on.
Try reading some Solzhenitsyn sometime. Solzhenitsyn experienced the wonders of Communism first-hand--unlike you, you self-hating suburban piece of shit.
ha! The French/German aircraft is slower and less efficient due to POOR aerodynamics.
Boeing is a far superior aircraft to Airbus.
have you been to Cuba?!
on a recent vacation, i had a tour boat operator who had a Ph.D in psychology who could not survive working in his profesion. he made more money driving a boat full of tourists.
come on, is free school that is useless (in Cuba or anywhere else for that matter) a good aspect of communism? what about the poverty? the average wage of $13US/month? the realization that as a Cuban you cannot leave your country for vacation of any other reason?
First off two wrongs don't make a right. The bigger question to me is why would the US do this to a plane that will be examined from the top down the second it gets delivered? The mostly likely conclusion is to generate more tensions between the US and China.
From the get-go the bush administration has been very adamant on trying to create a new red-scare ostensibly to help defense contracts get through. Think back before 9/11 and look at the various games of cat and mouse the US has been playing with China.
The sad part is that there is lots of trade to be lost by being percieved as the world's biggest spy. Look at the European take on MS and government collusion, Echelon, etc.
In the end this kind of strategy will cost companies revenues, jobs, and negatively affect the economy just to appease the military-industrial complex. In a slumping economy pissing off your potential customers is very bad business and I doubt the big defense contracts are going to make up for what the US is going to lose in trade by its reputation. Even if they did the money comes from American taxes, so its a no-win situation.
This is cold war politics at action. The Russians took this kind of thing as par for the course, but our current administration does not have a firm grasp on how important perception is in the 21st century. The old cold war games may now not be non-event exchanges but could cost us dearly.
They spy on us, we spy on them, and generally it's not a bad thing because it gives insight into whether those you are spying on are posing a real threat or just being belligerent, and prevents either side from preparing surprise attacks. The diplomats know this, which is why you rarely hear of spying - it's just business.
The question you should be asking is, why is China making such a big deal out of this now, when they haven't before? Why were they so aggressive towards that EP-3, and more recently the P-3? What might they have up their sleeve - an actual push on Taiwan, or a military challenge to the US in the Pacific? You should read Jane's and Stratfor's reports on the subject before you go crying on how unfair this is, particularly when the US has strong alliances with South Korea, Taiwan, and the Phillipines, and an obligation to defend Japan.
---If you can't trust a nerd, who can you trust?
There are always bugs in the residences of diplomats and the various cubby holes of mid-range political activity. But at the higher end of the scale. . . That is, if there are bugs on the Chinese version of Air Force One, then you can safely bet that they WILL be found.
Which means that they were meant to be found.
Bugs aren't interesting.
The interesting thing is that it made high profile 'real' news (i.e., the Washington Post).
Why? Easy. -To further the programming of public awareness on both sides of the Atlantic.
-See stories about how China now filters Email. Look for similar material over the next few months.
The highschool play unfolding on the world stage is clearly being performed in order to cast China in the role of the next big bad guy.
Why?
So that when the curtain finally goes up on 'act 2' (-That'd be the whole plot development between Pakistan, India and China, each with nukes, BTW), the U.S. will have paved the way for public sympathy in supporting the country most able to provide, um, oil. And general fear.
I'm betting on concentration camps being open for business in the U.S. in another ten years. Maybe sooner.
Why?
Cuz Fear is Food. Solution? Refuse to play. Fear is a choice. Laugh a lot. Love your friends. Stay healthy. Learn how to avoid the bullshit, in the air, in your food, in the programming. The end of the world, (beginning of the new), only happens once in a very long while; Try to enjoy it!
-Fantastic Lad
They should have ordered the plane as a
shell and retrofitted it themselves;
in the same situation I am sure they
would do the same thing...
They should have known better.
jmho
Unix, an obscure operating system developed by bored researchers in an attempt to get a better game playing experience.
Yo misunderstand. Marx says "from each according to ability, to each according to need." The idea is that everybody contibutes whatever they can, and receives whatever they need. A Communist kernel hacker can have a much nicer computer than a Communist carpenter, who in turn has other tools. As for the Chinese president--if a shower in his plane helps him do his very important job, I don't see anything about Communism that should prevent him from having it.
This country has nuclear weapons and the delivery system to get to the US. If our intelligence teams haddn't tried to take advantage of this chance, they would have been failing in their duties. My only regret that they got caught. They would have done the same thing if the situation had been reversed.
I'm wondering: were this bugs marked "made in USA"?
Try "Made in Taiwan." Or even, "Hecho en Mexico."
All Your Conversations Are Belong to Us
-nd
From the BBC:
"The reports in Britain's Financial Times newspaper and the Washington Post quoted Chinese security sources as saying that the tiny, satellite-controlled bugs were discovered when they emitted static during test flights in China last year."
Static? As in they made noises? When last I checked, listening devices have small microphones, not speakers. And while a problem could cause sound to come out of the microphone, would it really be loud enough to hear? And are US listening devices so unreliable that all 20-something malfunctioned in the same way at the same time?
Either the story is made up, China isn't saying how they really found them, or these devices were meant to be found for whatever reason.
At any rate, finding the bugs only when they made their presence known is what happens when you have a system that values loyalty over skill...
Ya know, considering the microphone in the headboard, I guess this adds a whole new twist to the saying "Don't let the bed bugs bite."
;-)
You may all groan now...
Bruce Lane, KC7GR,
Blue Feather Technologies
and why isn't this moded down?
Since the story validates most Slashbots' worldview, (US evil, everyone else good) I guess that's not surprising. I wouldn't doubt that these are the same people who during October were saying that any attacks against the Taliban were unjustified because the US gov't was fabricating evidence, and are even now a bit disappointed to learn the truth.
But then, what do you expect from people who also believe The X-Files is a documentary.
Looking at the political fallout in the PRC because of this, I wonder if they were really bugs at all.
Here's what we know so far of what happened: A plane that was built in a hangar guarded by the People's Army, put together by workers under constant surveilance by officers in the PRC military, using parts gone over with a fine-toothed comb, had not one, not three, but over twenty "listening devices" planted on it. By all accounts, there is already some big political backlashes working their way through the ranks of the PRC military, with several arrests already made of the soldiers that were supposed to be guarding the plane.
On top of that, we know the plane was supposed to have the best defenses that money could buy. It might very well be the most secure plane in all of the PRC. But now that it's known to have been bugged, can the Party really believe that all the listening devices were removed? In a crisis with the US or one of its allies (like, say, Taiwan), can the plane truly be considered a safe and trusted hideaway for their president?
So will he be using an older, less well-defended plane instead? Wouldn't it be funny if that plane was the one that really had the bugs?
All the "listening devices" on the plane were discovered after somebody reported hearing static. Was that really static, or was it really an MP3 of the Marine Corps Band playing Stars and Stripes Forever, flaunting the PRC with the placement of these "listening devices?"
>>By 1943, the USSR had built up the industrial infrastructure necessary to open up a can-o-whopass on the Nazis. No small achievement.
Sure if you consider that the can of whopass was at a ratio of 39 russians for every nazis. Overwelming numbers does work, but does not make it a can of whopass. just a dog pile.
>>In the 60s, the USSR put the first satellite in orbit, the first man in space, and probably would have beat the US to the moon if Chief Designer Korolyev hadn't died and the N-2 program hadn't been so badly botched.
Whom does not have failures. At least the americans are mostly public. They don't hide to much. and what they deciede to hide never stays hidden for long anyway.
ONEPOINT
if you see me, smile and say hello.
they spy on us... why not spy on them for a change.
:)
For a change? That's a new one. You either have to go for the big sarcasm price or be the most naive person alive.
Not that it is necessarily a bad thing to spy on the Chinese, that judgement I leave to others.
"Chinese Diplomats are Weenies" :)
/^[A-Z0-9._%+-]+@[A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,4}$/i
So much for the word, "intelligence".
A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess? - Joshua (Wargames)
I can just see a "Boeing vs Airbus" holy war starting here... at least it's a good change from Linux vs Microsoft and the like.
Anybody look at their website lately? Here is their lame attempt to respond to ubiquitous evidence that the CIA in the past provided training and funding to terrorists like bin Laden. Even the tobacco companies did better than that! But what I really want to know is how much of our tax dollars funded the CIA's development of this "terrorism busters" logo. yeesh.
You're such a funny, racist man.
Grow up fuckwad, and come out of your cave.
different!=bad.
-- I speak only for myself.
If I have to give someone a second overcoat I worked to own then why would I bother with the effort in the first place..?
Anything material I accumulate affects someone else about as much as my not eating peas as a child affected kids starving in Africa.
********************
I object to Intellect without Discipline.
Actually, she is the Queen of Canada, and the United Kingdom.
More accurately, she is the Queen of Antigua and Barbuda, Barbados, Belize, Canada, Grenada, Jamaica, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea, Solomon Islands, St Kitts and Nevis, St Lucia, St Vincent and Grenadines, The Bahamas, Tuvalu and the United Kingdom.
Apologies to any people that I have forgotten, or included erroneously.
What does Raise the Red Lantern have to do with the revolution? And you listed it twice too, btw.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Us - China relations were FINALLY starting to improve, even with the national missile defense program: now it's all straight down the crapper.
"The crows seemed to be calling his name, thought Caw."
Deng Xiao Ping once said "There is nothing wrong with getting rich". When the defacto ruler of your country says that, you don't live in a communist country anymore.
When Mao died the CCP leadership basically decided that 'capitalism' was better then 'Maoism' and the related insanity. They now claim only to be 'socialist' and are trying to model their government on the neo-fascist Asian governments in Singapore, South Korea and (formerly) the Republic of China on Taiwan.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Are you NUTS!?. Sure, the USSR may have managed to industrialize quickly, but so did the damn Nazis. That isn't much of a statement in and of itself. Stalin's Russia was a brutal nation and loaded with oppression. Inside and outside of the government. Probably as close to Orwell's '1984' as any society so far.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Dude, cuba trades with every other contry in the world. Not trading with the US couldn't possibly be hurting them that much.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
hahaha
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
The chinese government hasn't claimed to be communist since Mao died. Read a history book!
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
The dumb shits in North Korea?
The guy's name is Kim Jong-il.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
As of now China only has a few nuclear weapons. Mostly just a 'see we have nukes too' kinda thing. China basically said that if the US goes ahead with their missile shield, they'll start building more. In a couple of years china will have a whole new lineup of modern, shield penetrating technology.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
The government of Taiwan calls itself the "Republic of China", and at one point claimed to be the legitimate government of the whole thing. It's easy to see how people with the inelegance level of Janet Reno could be confused.
(Also, there are three ethnic groups in Taiwan, Taiwanese, who are Han Chinese who immigrated in the 1600s. Chinese or "mainlanders" who moved over in the 1940s when the communists took over, and promptly took over the island. And 'natives' who would be like Native Americans here)
Oh, and btw Anti-communism in the Kuomintang government that took over Taiwan in the 1940s would have made Joe McCarthy look like Karl Marx. But they did have a lot more to worry about : P
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Boeing didn't retofit the plane. Three smaller contract companies did! Boeing made the plane, but they didn't furnish it. And they would never had had a chance to put bugs in.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
And of course there's the 1950's era cyborg cat we tried to cook up. Didn't work to well though.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
(* Even a perfectly trained engineer can't see through the sealed components, and most of components are like that - tested and sealed at the factory. *)
They should have X-rayed everything I suppose.
(* For example, it would be trivial to add the surveillance circuitry to some existing electronic component,.... *)
The description hinted that they were fairly obviously bugs. But, we don't really know the details.
I wonder what would happen if Boeing sued the US gov for harming its reputation. I bet the US would deny any involvment. IOW, it would be Boeing's burden to show that the defendant planted them, which nobody will ever admit to.
But, it would make a cool trial.
Table-ized A.I.
Why the hell would you want to have a monarchy anywhere?!
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
jails and murders it's own citizens in record numbers
Actually, the US just surpassed Russia in the percentage of population jailed, making us in yet another field 'number one!' We are way, way ahead of China as far as jailing goes. Btw, Texas kills more people as a percentage of the population then China does.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Arg! Boeing didn't do the refit job. Several US contractors did. Quoth the artical "Dee Howard Aircraft Maintenance L.P., Gore Design Completions Ltd., Rockwell Collins Inc. and Avitra Aviation Services Ltd., a Singapore firm, " Also, They purchaced the plain from Delta Airlines, not Boeing.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
No, the message we sent was more like "We can't install bugs for shit."
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Why is it that people can base such strong convictions on such stupid foundations. The static mentioned could have been radio static, or static electricity. audio static would have been the last thing I would have thought they meant. Haven't you ever heard the stewardess say 'turn off all cell phones and electrical devices during takeoff' before? It's not because they make white noise in the cabin that distracts the pilot.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
If you read carefully you'll see that the Bush administration just inherited this from Clinton.
...
Just for the sake of accuracy
D.
Yes, in the US too--but there's nothing ironic about "hey, we're capitalist, and some folks have a whole lot of money compared to others."
(where, you see, theoretical communism touts equal distribution of wealth; while practical communism looks a lot like practical capitalism)
(sometimes posts are like jokes and mice--kind of ruins them when you dissect them)
1: The American spy plane was in international waters (as recognized by the rest of the world save China)
I had the strong impression the case was such that the plane was in international airspace (as defined by the US for China), but if a Chinese airplane were as close to the coast of the US, the US would say it was in US airspace (as defined by the US for the US). Pretty damn close, anyway.
yes, we have no bananas
The US should have delivered the plane as parts for them to assemble.
War crimes, torture, lies, illegal spying... Would someone give Bush a blowjob, already, so he can be impeached?
With all the Cameras going up in the world to look in on the general population, why should the governments feel left out?
I mean, if having cameras on the general population helps to curb crime, then imagine the crime reduction we can all experience from making the government internals public broadcast.
and think what we could do with the savings!
> The russian revolution WAS violent. The start of the October revolution itself was when the armoured cruiser Potjemkin started to shell the Tsar's palace in St. Petersburg, and the fighting continued long into the 1920's.
nope. There's actually a telegram written by one of the tsarist generals on the morning of the revolution and he writes that it's very quiet and few people on the streets.
there were a few people killed by some guards, ten I think.
The violent part started some weeks AFTER the revolution. But then it was because the capitalists in other countries invaded russia. Especially France, Germany & Japan, as they had large investments in the russian industry.
Also some of the old tsarist generals launched attacks on russia.
And in the parts they conquered they butchered people (especially jews, long before hitler). They also said that they were fighting for demovracy, but in all parts they ruled it was dictatorship. Except in one part in ukraine were only rich people were allowed to vote.
>> "Umm, from where have you gotten that?
The first thing that was decided after the Russian revolution was to have a public election to get rid of the dictatorship"
> With the only nominees for the major positions being Lenin, Stalin and Trotskij...
no, it was an election to the parlament. where you voted on different parties. The bolsjeviks said before that if they won the election they would take the parlament away and give all power to the soviets(a far more democratic institution). They got 38% in that election. But the Socialist revolutionaries(that where against the revolution btw.) was split into two sections and one of them supported the Bolsjeviks in giving all power to the soviets. so then it was done.
/Erik
Erik Dalén
personally I'd like to see a purly Canadian (ie, non shared) monarchy in Canada.
What! Why on earth would you want to return to an archaric leadership concept. Monarchies represent a past littered with cruelity, poverty, slavery, oppresion, injustice . . . well you get the idea. Time to let it die. The French had the right idea a few hundred years ago.
AC, do you know what the word "effectively" means?
< tofuhead >
It is still the dark of night.
A bit like the modern US of A then ...
A vapid swipe with no justification.
Oh, and the French went on an imperialistic rampage throughout Europe after toppling the monarchy, with associated cruelity, poverty, slavery, oppresion and injustice.
Actually the French wrongly went from a Monarch to an Emperor. Bad move.
It should be noted that Napoleon did destroy entrenched feudalism thru out Europe. He did grant constitutitions and instantiated formal law codes where none existed before.
However, the point of this discussion that privilege and power by birth is absurd and wrong. If you prefer to be ruled over by an aristocratic class hurry, get your passport ready, there are a still a few more ruling monarchies around, but not for long.
All totalitarian style governments are unjust and immoral and fortunately fast becoming obsolete. The Monarchy is one of this set and should be relegated to the reject pile of history.
Last October, days before its planned maiden voyage, Chinese military communications experts discovered numerous high-tech listening devices planted inside the plane, according to Chinese and Western sources, who said they had been told of this by Chinese military officers and aviation officials. The plane was grounded and has not been flown since it was delivered.
Ahh... let's see... Chinese and Western sources heard it from some Chinese military officers and aviation officials.
Definitely must be the truth.
I'm not saying they didn't find them, but I haven't seen any pictures, or anything other than hearsay.
Remember, this is being put out by the same government that did wonderful things like the Tiananmen Square massacre, countless human-rights violations, more executions than all other countries combined last year, and other fine things.
Personally, I hope we've got listening devices planted everywhere we can in their government.
"Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
Try now.
They're elated 'cos "only 20 of the bugs were found."
For example, when communicating with China (or a compromised computer), the NIC might stop sending for, say, 20s. In an even-numbered minute for 0, or odd (for 1). And depending on the type of NIC, there are probably much broader channels.
Ask me if I've been required to disclose any crypto keys.
Here's a good article that describes the extensive security measures taken by the chinese during the retrofitting. For example...
- chinese experts swept the plane for bugs 3 times before the plane left san antonio for beijing
- a 6 foot chain link fence around the plain guarded 24 hours/day by 25 chinese troops
- close supervision of work (i.e. someone looking over your shoulder all the time)
- control of tools and equipment brought on to the plane.
The article ends up suggesting that maybe the chinese did it... after all, 21 chinese airforce people were arrested.
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets