Slashdot Mirror
Recycle Fee For Each PC?
UncleJosh writes: "The New York Times (free reg rq'd) has a story about a $25-30 fee to be added to the price of a new PC to cover the cost of recycling it. Sort of like a bottle deposit, but you don't get the money back." What if I just want to buy the case?
Politicians don't have to pay a recycle tax for each stupid piece of boneheaded legislation they keep recycling from election year to election year.
first post... I think...
*** I had a
Does this mean I can take my machine to Michigan and get my $25 deposit back?
Believe nothing -- Buddha
why not goto FreeGeek if you're in portland, ore. area
You mean people throw PCs away?!?
As I'm sure a horde of people are going to say: That's not fair.
But, what if you just buy parts? Do they seriously think someone would pay $24-30 for like a $50 set of RAM chips?
And, what if I don't plan on "recycling" my computer? Say in ten years, nothing around will play a game I buy in a week, and I have a computer that plays it? Do they take that money off my computer price if I promise to keep it forever?
Sounds to me like it's just a crock. I can't think of any reason to get rid of a working old computer. If it can run Linux, it could be a firewall or something. If it can run old DOS games(with sound), hell, I'd keep it.
Really, computer cases are the least of our environmental worries...
Got Rhinos?
This is a good idea. The recycling is good idea and the only way to get it done is for it to be paid up front. If we legislated recycling but allowed aftermarket payment, we'd find the roadsides littered with abandoned PC's. The EU is trying (rather unsuccessfully) to do the same thing with cars.
i saw a story a while ago about the cost of recycling PCs, and how america just ships them off to africa or something cause they are hazardous to just bury or burn.
IS THIS MY PROBLEM?! no. if i pay the fee, and still just throw the PC in the dumpster, my money never went towards the cause of recycling it, just the cost in general.
america is retarded.
MARIJUANA, SHROOMS, X: ONLINE?! - E
You mean people actually throw their computers out? None of my computers have ever hit the trash in many-o-years.
Buying a Dell computer is equivalent to dropping the soap in a prison shower.
And then we'll end up with one company not only collecting that extra $25-$30, but also charging Joe Schmoe an additional $45 to dispose of his PC.
... try to get something DONE!
This is what has happened with bottles. I don't know about anywhere else other than here in the bay area, but now, scavenger companies are charging to haul away recyclables.
---
Keep you Eye on the Ball,
Your Shoulder to the Wheel,
Your Nose to the Grindstone,
Your Feet on the Ground,
Your Head on your Shoulders.
Now
I pay a fee for oil disposal when it gets changed. I pay a fee for tire disposal, when I change my tires.
Personally, since I've never had to dispose of a computer (I still have all but one that I've ever bought, the other one I sold) Why should I get stuck with a disposal fee that I may never use?
Why not just make it illegal to throw away monitors, etc. in the regular trash, then have a collection point with a fee for disposal, just like oil and tires?
If that meant I could plunk my old box on the sidewalk and let it be picked up by the recyclers (garbage crew, because it ain't recyclable), sure.
But what do you want to bet that "since there's a recycling programme, we can ban picking it up at the curbside", the way they have in California?
In other words, I pay the tax, and I still can't throw away the boat anchor? The only difference I can see here is that some preferred contractor gets a cushy pork-barrel project.
because the electronic components have become extremely poisonous.
But the price must be variable and depending on the estimated disposal cost of the individual equipment. Otherwise there would be no incentive to make 'cleaner' boxes.
Just my 2 cents
Personally, I have no problem with this, as long as recycling centers are widely and easily available. I have half a dozen cases and a few boxes worth of broken parts I can't do anything with (and yes, I've tried donating them to a school or non-profit--they are even less able to use them than me) but I can't throw away because its unsafe for the environment. I would gladly pay an extra 20-30 dollars to finance being able to take this crap somewhere and forget about it and not have to worry about poisoning drinking water or wildlife. Look at it this way: at least microsoft (probably) won't see the money.
There is a disposal fee for monitors and TVs to be paid at time of disposal.
DCMonkey
been something like "When Good Intentions Go Bad". I agree I don't think I've ever thrown a PC out, I've always been able to find someone who would find it useful and pass it along.
Who knows maybe this is Di$ney's way of getting back at everyone -- if they can't get content restricted and locked down then lets see if we can't focus on making the hardware more expensive.....
Okay, some people recycle their PC cases. That's not the big thing worry about. The chip fabrication process alone produces huge amounts of polution in itself. Since companies like Intel and NS buy off EPA officials and use loopholes like there's no tomorrow, it's no wonder why communities are screwed, many of which are near Silicon Valley. I don't remember the numbers off my head, the chip fab process produces a huge amount of toxic waste. Now add the rest of the parts of a computer together and you can estimate just how much damage building a PC involves.
.smell my feet.
I like the concept: you put down a deposit on each computer. You get it back when you turn it in. The difficulty is in verification: you have to turn in the computer that went with a deposit. That in turn requires an expensive verification system (for example, checking serial numbers on motherboards). Overall, though, it might work.
Miko O'Sullivan
Also have three old 386's downstairs waiting for lemmings, linux 0.1 (something to do) and my own homebrewed OS i plan on messing around with.
They never get recycled if they never run out of use. Why not just an extra payment to the collectors when you toss a PC? Pay 25 bucks now when we could have technology to do it at no cost in years to come? (nano) makes no sense to me.
Oh, still have my C64 too.
Question
http://www.ironfroggy.com/
Does the money help my monitor decompose?
Will computer companies start making cases out of recycleable material? Will there be a discount if the computer is smaller or made out of recycleable material? What if I get alot of spam? (sorry couldn't help the spam bit)
I would be interested to hear how they would go about recycling the equipment. Are the companies doing the recycling required to just store the equipment somewhere that's not a dump? Would they actually need to take the lead out of my monitor?
A criminal could rent a warehouse, take as many computers as they could at 50 dollars a piece and fill the warehouse, then default on their rental payments on the warehouse. I'm sure this sort of idea isn't so new. But since computers don't cause cancer like asbestos it probably won't be as closely monitored by the government.
This is a good idea, and if it wasn't for general public apathy it would have been implemented long ago.
Cradle-to-grave manufacturing *is* the future, unless we plan to relocate mining operatings to metropolian landfills sometime soon. Aside from the strict environmental viewpoint of not shi*ing where you live, there is a limited supply of some of the critical elements used in electronics manufacture. (I've momentarily vented the mineral they were contemplating mining in a active volcano for)
So, implementing something like this (after stepping on the people who whine when anything suddenly costs more than yesterday), you can either tag the fee driectly to the MSRP, or thru some more complicated method involving total mass of harardous/recylcable materials. Each removable component sold in a OEM box would have an individual prce attached to it, summed to the total fee for the box, allowing components to be turned in individually, and allowing individual part purchases and upgrades.
Ideally, the fee would be treated as a deposit, with the fee being returned to the consumer upon return, the cost being made up by the materials vaule of the item. Which would act as a general incentive for users to actually return the parts (much along the lines of pop bottles (where such incentives exist))
Most of us are thinking, "Well, that doesn't apply to me since I never buy whole systems. I buy each component by itself and build the whole thing myself. So how would this apply to me?" Well, what I think would work a whole lot better is to create a fee for each component individually. So motherboards, monitors, hard drives, etc would each have their own fee that relates exactly to the resources required to recycle that one part. This would make a lot more sense than a per-computer fee. Even if you don't look at it from the component level, why should someone who buys a new iMac, which is mostly plastic and doesn't have a CRT at all, pay as much as someone who buys a full tower with multiple hard drives and multiple monitors? I hope by September when they begin to roll this out they will have resolved this issue. Otherwise, I'm all for the fee. I think it's definitely needed.
Nicodemus
Doing my part to boycott the blackout.
Sigh. The recycler/scavanger companies charge the city to pick up your stuff. The city charges you.
BUT if the scavanger doesn't pick up your recyclables, then the garbage company does and tosses into a landfill. Figuring folks might recycle 30% of their garbage, the city (and you) save 30% off of the landfill fee. Why is that important? Because landfills cost money, and the further the landfill is, the more it costs. And the faster you fill the landfill, the sooner it closes and they have to build another one, most likely farther away.
So recycling means you're not making new landfills further away that are costing you more money to dump your trash.
And by recycling your computer and monitor, you don't have to pay for toxic waste cleanup after the lead and other chemicals leech into the ground.
"I may be Love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it."
Motor oil is a perfect example of why pay-for-disposal doesn't work. If you have to pay to throw away the oil properly, people will just dunmp it in the sewer and let it get into everyone's ground water. I'd prefer a system where you pay a deposit when you buy the oil, then get it back when you dispose of it properly.
Miko O'Sullivan
It seems that due to this retarded proposal all the the EU is not only banning certain usefull substances in the manufacture of electronics, they are also requiring manufactures to help facilitate the disposal of any waste due to their products :/
It sure may be better for the environment but its like a tax on electronics which are where most of (imho and circumstances) the commercial innovations lay. I doubt itll really make much difference in the grand scheme of things as it will just infiltrate its added price into the component industry.
Although imho the fact that the American market is going to cost more aswell is a complete pisstake, as the Americans wont have to pay any extra.. just us Euro's.. this is just the corperations exploiting this to make a fast buck out of you yanks, which will (seeing as you out number us) probably easily gain back any costs the encounter due to this new Euro legislation!
Disgracefull :/
The problem with slashdot is that most of its users were bullied and stuffed into lockers as kids!
That's right - even in a densely-packed metropolis like NYC, where you don't have to haul small amounts of junk halfway across the state to recycle it, the "blue box" types of curbside recycling are big eaters of tax dollars.
Apart from paper (which is marginal), most plastics/glass, while recyclable, aren't recyclable at a profit.
If you want to recycle, you can either pay a tax at the point of purchase (like the one being discussed for computers), or in the form of higher bills for waste disposal and property taxes (like the "recycling programs" at the municipal level.
Of course, nowhere is the notion of "Hey, how about just stuff it into landfills, because we don't want to pay more" ever discussed. Funny, that.
Why not just make recycling voluntary? Those who want to "help save the cute fluffy bunnies" can pay market rates to dispose of their waste in an environmentally-friendly manner, and those of us who don't give a rat's ass can just dump it. (Hey, if you enviro-types really believed that recycling stuff - even at a net energy loss - why aren't you buying landfills, digging them up, and recycling them with your own money? :-)
Interesting note - apparently, you burn less fossil fuel over time if you "dig more oil out of the ground to make new plastics from scratch" than you do in "melting down old plastics to make new plastics". Newsprint is about the only commodity for which recycling makes sense (on either an energy-use or a dollar-cost basis)
They shouldn't be taxing computer buyers but manufacturers of computer components based on how environmentally unfriendly the component they make is. Of course this cost will trickle down to the consumer some way or another but it's better than taxing the consumer directly. I don't like to pay more taxes any more than the next guy, but hey, it's better than having lead (or whatever harmful chemicals a PC contains) in your water.
What harmful components do PCs have that harm the environment?
--
The Grid Report The state of Grid computing
... no more taxes.
Just setup a dumpster at the local recycling center where people can take old computers and toss them in.
Why is that such a hard concept? Charging people $25 isn't going to stop them from tossing them into the trash. Who cares about $25 you paid 2 years ago and wont get back anyway.
It doesn't sound like bottle deposits where you actually get the money back, it sounds more like you just give "them" $25 and that's it.
I am guessing this is being pushed by people who want to make a shitload of money from recycling computers (i.e. throwing them in a big hole in the ground when no one is looking).
This is just an other clever way to charge a tax by tying it to something that sounds good on the surface but which in practice will be completely unrelated to the tax. I hate it when the government does this.
The reason I think this "just an other tax" is because there appears to be nothing tied to recycling, to keeping computers out of landfills or anything else. The money isn't clearly earmarked for such ventures either. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for computer recycling and recognize the problem of lead and other such things. Yet this will, despite some claims, do nothing to address the problem.
For real effect we need the tax combined with some sort of recycling payment for when you dispose of your computer properly. A lot here have mentioned that, but I want to emphasize that without this we have nothing more than a new way to add to the cost of a computer.
Every old machine I've ever gotten rid of, I've done so at a garage sale or swap meet. I don't think I've ever thrown a piece of hardware away into the garbage. Working or non-working.
.
Although I have some old ISA SCSI cards and 48-pin 4-meg simms I'm thinking of tossing. .
(Ironically, I've got about 250 megs worth of RAM in the form of 48-pin simms that are probably all perfectly working, but obsolete to the point of useless. I think they'd make good secondary storage if there was some sort of PCI card to plug em all into - they'd make a great RAM drive - they'd outperform disk).
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
It makes people say "The environment is expensive to keep. Stuff it!".
:-)
Trust me, anyone who goes through _forced_ environmentalism _hates_ it. A city local to me (Guelph, Ontario) has forced garbage separation. I avoid even eating in the food courts there. I refuse to go trash picking. I ain't no hobo! After asking others outside that city what they think about that rule they usually say "Huh?", then "Oh yeah, that stupid city where I have to pick through my trash. Ugh!".
Same thing here. I'd gladly pay a few extra dollars of tax money for the option of putting the old computer beside the blue box, or even pay a few dollars to get it taken away knowing its going to be reused.
But if you _force_ me to pay directly, without any direct benefit to me (and not seeing my computer in a landfill is not a tangible benefit to most anybody), you've made me your enemy. I don't take being forced to do anything very well when it doesn't harm anyone else, and neither should you!
I believe this is the reason the EU is having a hard time applying this idea to cars? Because people are tired of paying hidden taxes to support a bunch of soft-hearted-and-headed green thumbs?
Oh, there's also the little problem of the fact that recycling certain materials is actually more harmful to the environment (energy usage and byproduct wise) than making them in the first place (eg: Can recycling plan hooked up to a coal/gas power station).
And no, we wouldn't find the roadsides littered with cases at all. Very few people throw anything out like that (speaking from personal experience). Example: Most everywhere you have to dispose of old paint specially. As someone living in the country (which is usually a popular dumping ground) the worst I've EVER seen around here is a set of tires. Never any paint cans. Why? Because the paint cans can usually be left at the curb for pickup, unlike tires. I've never once seen an old computer tossed out randomly here because these can either be left beside your garbage or at a dump.
The answer is to make recyling paletable and easy, never _force_. _Force_ is exactly why you don't get voted in and is exactly why you never get into government in the first place. (ever seen someone choose to vote for someone by choice in a democracy?
Choosing my words carefully to avoid becoming flamebait:
Why is it that when something like this comes along, the first thing we geeks do is complain about how stupid it is? We are a minority, we who keep machines long past their prime, using them to their full capacity as web servers, mail servers, firewalls, gateways, etc... The majority of computer waste comes from major corporations, who dispose of these machines after they have passed the point of obsolescence. The cheapest method of disposal right now is to have it "taken care of" (i.e. put in a landfill in China). See this site for real info.
Giving major corporations an incentive to recycle computers is an incredible step towards changing the way we deal with computer waste. Who knows, maybe the next step will be to device a whole new model for computer sales that generates less waste by creating more interchangable parts; rather than throwing out the whole machine every 1.5 years, companies can purchase core processing units that all machines use... distributed computing... but i digress.
if the PC is running Windows, all those resets and forced power cycles will wear down a PC. Not to mention the machine you bought last week has no hope of runnig the bloat-ware coming out next month.
But what about the people running real OS's that don't need to upgrade hardware every week ? Why should they be punished for the sins of Redmond?
Si vis pacem, para bellum! For evil to succeed good men need only do nothing!
We have this Tax for some time in belgium. For more information, check http://www.recupel.be/ (dutch, french).
Why can I see this now? In the news tonite: "The 11 month voyage "Operation Silicon Flotilla" is trying to find a port of call. The barge was funded by the national PC recycle control bill. On the barge over 32,000 tons of clone PC parts are destine for burial somewhere other than the United States. Mexico and Ghana have already turned down the 56 Million reward for accepting the load. Currently the US is engaging in talks with Pakastan, where the Minister of communications there was said as quoting. "We'll be happy to take this burden off of the USs hands." "Were trying to get e-terrorist training Kiosks up and running, and we need those parts out in the Bazzars and streets."
Give me $15 and I'll take your computer
Casual Games/Downloads
Yay, lots of replies from people who don't read the article first.
It's easier to finance the recycling program if it gets money up front than if it has no money until people start recycling the things, wouldn't you agree?
New cars are already more expensive as a result of laws mandating what percent of the car be recyclable -- I forget if the U.S. has such a law yet, but all it takes is one European country (Sweden, I believe) to mandate it, and suddenly everyone effectively has to do it for every car they sell. Would you be happier, then, if the $25 were added under the table so that you don't know you're paying it anyway?
We have been living in a false world for a while. It time that garbage / recycling costs are part of the cost of ownership.
This is not a "tax", it is a deposal charge. You pay it when you buy it. Think paper cups will sell for less than striofrom. Gas cars cost more than H2 Cars.
This will push us all into better resource management. Because the FULL cost is incurred during the purshess.
About not thoughing a machine away... It will be not this year or next but one day in the future that 386/40 with 8megs will be no more.
In fact, for any hardware appliance you buy here in Belgium (a PC, CD-ROM, freezer... *whatever*) you pay a certain amount (35 or so for a freezer) which also guarantees that the store where you purchase your stuff will also take your old junk in, and in theory have it recycled. Our local green party got that legislation through about half a year ago I think. I've never thrown away a PC so far so it's been a big waste of money. I wonder if the money really goes where it's supposed to go - to cover the recycling costs.
Does this mean perhaps after a few years I can take my PC to the supermarket and put it into those huge machines that determine if you are recycling glass, aluminum, plastic, or PC?
This is the single most important piece of information, and they nearly swept it under the rug in the article. I saw a program about three months ago on one of those TV "news" magazine shows covering this problem.
The used PCs being "recycled" are essentially shipped to third world countries. Peasants there then melt down the boards to "recycle" them. They essentially grab the parts that have resale value and let the other parts seep into the environment.
The video on this program was disturbing, to say the least. A huge junkpile of cases and monitors, everything covered by the soot of the burning fires melting the boards... and the people doing all this completely unprotected in any way. Not even masks. The ground around the entire site had been poisoned beyond any possible near-term use.
This program interviewed a clean recycler in the SF Bay area that said the costs of recycling locally in accordance with California environmental laws was very expensive but that this particular outfit never shipped anything overseas.
Basically, this has to be paid for somehow. Right now we're paying in environmental capital in third world countries. If we want to recover that, then the payment needs to come from the profit margin of the machines, the consumers' payments, or the government (taxes). Your choice.
He looked at me and said, "Kid, we don't like your kind, and we're gonna send your fingerprints off to Washington."
"Sort of like a bottle deposit, but you don't get the money back"
So in other words, it's nothing like a bottle deposit.
"when life gets complicated, I like to take a nap in a tree and wait for dinner" - Hobbes.
The only time that I have ever really recycled any computer parts, other than putting them into different machines, is the few times that I have tried to shove a 5 1/4" disk drive into a golden goat. It really was as fun as it sounds but it made some really ugly sounds ;)
There is no question that we in the first world need to do something about electronic waste. If you don't agree, read the Silicon Valley Toxic Coalition's report "Exporting Harm" at http://www.svtc.org. And no, I'm not affiliated with them.
In fact, I work for one of the large US PC manufacturers. I personally don't like the idea of an eight-year old kid in China inhaling lead powder while beating apart my company's old monitor with a Crescent wrench.
So let's tax the sale of components? I'm not so sure. (and yes, it will have to be at a component level, aggregated up for TV's and computers and such. Don't think you won't be charged a $3.73 take-back fee for your new 600GB hard drive.)
If our goal is to drive manufacturers to take end-of-life concerns into account while designing products, then the European WEEE directive is a better solution. It mandates that manufactuers are resposible for taking back anything they ship. No up-front fees. No back-end fees. Just call up Compaq or Dell or Sony and say, "Thank you, I'm finished with your pile of lead, cadmium, and mercury. Please take it away now." And they will. And if they're smart, they'll eliminate the lead, cadmium, and mercury in the design because it will cost less to recycle. Who knows what the EU will be doing with home built computers. Maybe if you built it you should be able to take it apart and dispose of it properly, instead of poisoning our environment just so you can have the latest video card.
The era of throwing stuff away is over. There is no "away".
Perhaps a more viable alternative would be to encourage hardware manufacturers to use more easily recyclable materials. We, as consumers of so much of it, en masse could maybe have some positive impact if we "expect" that. It just seems to me that social attitudes tend to be more effective in a long run than legislature. Personally, I'd be willing to pay $5-$10 more for a case which is fully recyclable and/or made from recyclable sources. What do you think?
Is that a reference to this famous two part seinfeld episode? If not it reminded me of it anyways...
And is there a good seinfeld episode guide hosted somewhere besides the google cache?
They all seem to be on dead servers, or returning 404's...
__
Choose mnemonic identifiers. If you can't remember what mnemonic means, you've got a problem. - Larry Wall
Microsoft has been recycling the same OS for years and charging US for it. Shouldn't they have to pay a tax?
But seriously, if Joe Consumer is willing to pay the bucks for the Microsoft/AOL/recycling tax and fewer PC parts are dumped in a third world country or shot into space, then it's all fine with me...
As I understand it, there are enviromental nasty stuff in several of the components that constitute a typical pc. So pc's aren't so easely, and inexpensive disposed of.
So there is a problem.
A short digression:
Almost all enviromental pollution are caused because, those that pollute finds it cheaper to dump their pollution where others must pay the bill, usually taxpayers or property owners, or just live with the consequenses.
Another factor regarding pollution, and its cleaning up, is, that it is cheap to pollute, but expensive to clean up. And since most pollution is done with a economic motive, those that pollute, rarely pays the bill.
So I believe, that economic incentives, like enviromental fees, is a good way to reduce pollution (which may benefit us all), is fair (since it should payed by those causing the pollution, not by the public at large), and most importantly; may cause a shift from manufacturing and consuming enviromental harmfull stuff, to, at least, lesser harmfull stuff.
Back to the topic:
So if such a fee should be imposed on pc's, it should be done in such a way, that it "hurt" components, that are the most envorimental damageing (eg. cadmium etc), but not those who aren't.
Lets suppose CRT's are enviromental nasties, so lets "fee" them. But if some new CRT technology is not, remember not to leverage a fee on that.
Or else there will be no economic incentive to change behaviour. It is important to keep that goal in sight.
On most motherboards, there sits a tiny battery. I really don't know whether it is enviromental damaging or not, but lets assume it is, but a slightly more expensive battery technology is not.
One can shurely predict, that all motherboard manufactures will use the polluting but cheap solution.
But if the polluting solution becomes more expensive by fees, all the manufactures will turn on a dime, and start using the more enviromental friendly, and cheaper solution.
Eg. At least older Compaq pc's had ATA-IDE cables, that were way shorter than the industri standard.
Alledgely this was because, that when somebody really produces something in bulk, it pays of to save even a few yuans per produced unit.
Here's some articles about the problem:
...is to encourage manufacturers to develop PCs that can be efficiently recycled. If someone figures out how to build a PC that can be recycled for less than the deposit amount and makes a profit, cool, the system works.
Same idea behind the European car recycling deposits. It's more-or-less the same market principle behind the pollution credits program President Bush announced today, which is based on an existing successful program.
How will they tax me if I only buy individual components and not a prebuilt system? They'll have to tack on a 10% charge to all components or something. Taxing a "new PC" seems pretty impractical.
How will they enforce that this money be spent on recycling/properly disposing of used computer parts? Like any other tax, I expect it would end up getting spent on things like balancing the budget.
Why don't they have a recycling tax on things like used batteries, smoke detectors (radioactive!), motor oil, and so on? Well, perhaps they do, I wouldn't know because it's certainly not easy to figure out where and how to recycle them. I don't have some battery recycling truck coming by every Thursday to pick up my used batteries along with my empty bottles and old newspapers. If they're worried about computers poisoning the environment and using up landfill, they should be doubly concerned about the more common and hazardous stuff too.
Personally, I think this is great. I mean, while I don't exactly relish having money tacked on to my computer, I'd rather pay $25 now than be drinking leaked chemicals down the road.
Some of you Germans can verify me on this, but I understand that in Germany they've got a law that forces venders to take back packaging and recycle it (not allowed to incinerate/dump it). This has taken down their excess waste a lot. I'd love to see that be put into place - think how much foam and plastic crap comes with a moniter, much less with a computer (especailly if you put it together yourself and buy everything seperately). Less solid waste is always a good thing.
Let's hope they do. Recycling really isn't necessary in the states due to the fact that we have millions and millions of unused and rarely seen acreage.
Old computers end up in my appartments and I take them with me whereever I go. I just can't seem to throw them out... might be good form something someday! ;)
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Here you pay that amount on your computer gear as well. I think it's worth it not to have potentially poisonous PC parts fucking up the environment. On the other hand I've been to a so called recycling place here and basically they just use the stuff for landfill anyway after grinding it up so we're screwed by the politicians yet once again.
Now I can finally think, "The components of the old, obsolete computer I just recycled could be part of my next pop bottle or can..."
Raises a few issues about what's in pop, though...
It didn't work. Maybe they caught on.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
What is exactly a "computer"? My set top dvd player is a computer..so why shouldnt that be included. Come to think of it almost all the electronics we use today have computer components, so why shouldnt this be a called a Electronics Recyling program and include everything with hazordous electronics?
All the volume of materials that is now being recycled will still be generated if it's NOT recycled. Perhaps it's only 20% of NYC's refuse volume... that still means the landfills fill up much faster. What then? How about we repeat history? Perhaps not.
:)
Recycling now is very likely to be cheaper than developing a new landfill 20% sooner than planned, or finding a new source of clean water, or a myriad of other long-term consequences... like the humiliation of having your garbage chased home by Mexican gunboats, for instance.
With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter. -- William Lloyd
The only way, and I do mean the only way, to successfully implement recycling of anything is to require manufacturers to use recycled components.
If you did that, the private sector would find a way to get old computers. If they had to buy them from you, they'd do it. You'd see the same fee of about $25 per computer (since this would raise costs) but you'd know where your money was going.
Unfortunately, in the new global economy, this is not possible, since the US guvmint hasn't the power (well, it has the power to crush anybody, economicaly if not militarily, but not the wherewithal) to enforce such a requirement on foreign manufacturers (it'd be restraint of trade, or somesuch.)
We end up dumping the stuff in Asia where it's manufactured, anyway. From whence it came, it returns. The best we can hope for is that the governments in Asia will do the sensible thing and start recycling it. Unfortunately, the PRC doesn't seem to be moving in that direction.
Anything we do in the states, that doesn't effect what happens during the actual manufacturing process (which happens over there) is just to make ourselves feel better (except in this case it is a cynical ploy to avoid regulation) it accomplishes nothing.
The good and new comes from no quarter where it is looked for, and is always something different from what is expected.
Is there a problem? Oh yea. The Sacramento News and Review has an article showing how in spite of current laws, CRT's and other components still end up in landfills all the time. There is sometimes 4 pounds of lead in one CRT, all of which could easily leech into your drinking water.
Then there's the proposal itself.
Hello? They're going to tax computers to pay for hauling away TV's? That's baloney.What really needs to be done is local goverments should have a small tax they impose on everyone. That tax should go for proper disposal of toxic waste -- all toxic waste. Checking back with that SNR link above, private contractors are currently ignoreing the law and knowing dumping illegal CRTs in landfills. This sort of thing doesn't get done right unless the government removes incentives to cut corners -- i.e., it does it itself.
All of society benefits from not having toxic chemicals in their landfills and drinking water, so a general tax is fair. Regardless, please get involved. Support whatever you want but do it, the cost of clean up once this stuff is already in a landfill is huge. Find groups in your local area and support them. (Bay Area link ).
Peace, out.
I pay a per-device fee when I junk PCs ranging from US$10-20 to the waste management company/recycler.
I do large scale gutouts occasionally, and this gets pricey. A pre fee to the buyer wouldn't be a bad thing, but the logistics of paper-trailing the transactions would be a bitch without a good asset management system.
This type of recycling fee is already built into the cost of rechargeable batteries.
http://www.rbrc.org/licensee/
According to this web site, 90% of rechargeable battery manufacturers are members of this organization. They recycle the batteries and they are funded by the battery makers, which means that a recycling fee is built into the cost of any battery bearing the RBRC symbol.
I'd pay $100 per complete PC if I knew it was being taken care of in a environmentally safe manner. Period.
t ml?legacy =cnet
If you look at the total lifecycle of a PC and the damaging effects it has on the environment in a landfill situation, a hundred bucks is a paltry cost to know that it is being recycled properly to be used for something else, which is no mean feat if you look at it closly.
While I'm not some super Eco-freak bent on saving the planet from the man-apes, I think its admirable that someone took some time to think up a possible, reasonable way to pay for disposal of PCs and it associated parts, and paying for the enormous costs such disposal costs.
Personally, I'd pay 2-3 times what I'm paying for garbage disposal if I knew my trash was going through some process to sort and recycle the waste. (I'm not in any municipal recycling program where I live) I don't really relish my legacy to be one of excessive waste.
You can mod me off the planet, but those that nit-pick at the cost, or perform analysis per part, or use this as some Big Brother tactic are completely irresponsible. I betcha they would love to just throw their garbage on the street and hope it would just mysteriously vanish.
*Poof* It's magic!
Get real and take some responsibilty for your lives. Before you spam me with your idiocy, take a look a look up the actual costs of PC disposal. You might find yourselves a bit enlightened.
Here was a lame quick Google:
http://news.com.com/2009-1040-256833-3.h
Enligten yourselves before you get your panties all in a bunch about a few bucks.
No. Seriously. I love you.
Here's what you do...take your old system, the one totally devoid of anything you may possibly ever use. After dark, set it outside beside your car near the trunk. Arrange it to look like you just took it out of the trunk, set it down and forgot to carry it in. It will most likely be gone in the morning. If not, just leave it there a day or two, eventually someone will make it disappear.
A while back there was a story on The Screensavers,(I looked I can't find it) where someone took a case filled it with concrete, and set it on their front porch. As I recall it sat on his porch for about 3 days, then it disappeared during the night. They found it about 3 blocks away, in a ditch.
people like me might be the cause of that (though i live in california... just people *like* me)
;)
you see my blue recycle can does get the garbage segregated for it, i do my part, i throw all my paper and plastic in there. same for my green yard can, with grass clippings and leaves.
but when it comes to those allmighty beer cans, i haul a van full down the street every couple weeks and get some cash for em, even manage to cover the cost of my whole garbage bill per month off em...
Note: i sure have to spend a WHOLE lot on beer to accomplish this "free garbage service", but it sure is fun
I don't think this model precludes a "capitalist" model, but the waste disposal corps client would need to be the PC vendor, and not the customer.
. If we're going to be serious about getting something accomplished, it has to be made hard to avoid. Otherwise, enough people would "free-load" on the system to make it ineffective.
...
download your mp3s however you want, then pay the artists via fairtunes.
I have never thrown out a single computer... heck in my dorm room alone I have 4 computers running doing my bidding. I know I cannot be alone in this.
Help Brendan pay off his student loans
Its just another way for the government to legally launder money. They dump tax dollars into big pointless funds and they simply shave the top into their own pockets.
- If they say that they have documented the mating habits of the australian fruit fly on the third wednesday of July in every other leap year would you go and check?
Linux boxes don't go obsolete because they get incrementally upgraded, and the old parts are kept for emergency repairs or recycled into units for friends or schools which, because even a 486 runs a decent Linux Webserver, don't end up on the curb like M$ OS idiot boxen. M$ OS users also upgrade incrementally, but toss the old parts, and by about when they've replaced most of the box they upgrade the OS. So put the tax squarely on the M$ OS license. Further two social goods at once.
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
Classic article
http://www.uoe.dk/csworld/security-.html
Real Computer security
Way down Louisiana close to New Orleans
Way back up in the woods among the evergreens
There stood a pile made of metal not wood
Where lived a country boy name of Johnny B. Good
He never ever learned to recycle or reuse so well
But he could throw out a PC, by-laws can go to hell
Go Go
Go Johnny Go
Go Go
Johnny B. Good
He use to carry his Amiga's in a gunny sack
And throw it 'hind the trees by the railroad track
Oh, the engineers used to see him sitting in the shade
Rebellin gainst the system that the senate made
People passing by would stop and say
Oh my that little country boy should pay
Go Go
Go Johnny Go
Go Go
Johnny B. Good
His mama told him someday there would be a ban
And he wouldn't be able to discard his lan
Many laws and rulez from miles around
Tellin him he had to keep his PC's or pay by the pound.
Maybe someday the fines would give him a fright
Johnny B. Good told them he'd just work at night...
Go Go
Go Johnny Go
Go Go
Johnny B. Good
Canadian Bred with American Buttering
If I pay a fee, it would be a DISPOSAL fee. If it's going to be recycled, someone is going to make money off it and they should be paying ME! Just like aluminum cans.
Thank you. Drive through. (:wq)
I am all for it if it helps. Personally I would rather pay some recycle tax and have recycling centers all over than see something like what's going on in New York happen. If you haven't heard they are thinking of recycling almost all recycling because it costs too much, this is a huge negative and if I have to pay 25-30 bucks upfront on my PC to help defer the cost of recycling the stinking thing that's good for me. Here's the NYTimes Article on the push to stop recycling in NYC due to budgetary reasons.
what was that about plastic bad for the environment? and how come I actually see more and more plastic being used?
....... modularity in hardware is in order.
maybe improvements in the way electronics, such as computers are designed and used is in order.
Rather than building in obselesence (sp?)
First of all, im not partisippating in that free reg bullshit, theyll prolly just sell it to microshaft to help passport become the largest DB in all of history. but this means that i can take my PCs someplace locally and get a refund when i recycle them...RIGHT!? or did i misinterpret the soad bottle analogy?
"....Same thing here. I'd gladly pay a few extra dollars of tax money for the option of putting the old computer beside the blue box, or even pay a few dollars to get it taken away knowing its going to be reused.
But if you _force_ me to pay directly, without any direct benefit to me (and not seeing my computer in a landfill is not a tangible benefit to most anybody), you've made me your enemy. I don't take being forced to do anything very well when it doesn't harm anyone else, and neither should you!..."
1st you say here its better to finance recycling through hidden taxes.
"...I believe this is the reason the EU is having a hard time applying this idea to cars? Because people are tired of paying hidden taxes to support a bunch of soft-hearted-and-headed green thumbs?..."
Now you are saying its bad to pay for recycling with hidden taxes.
Make up your mind.
Its just a matter of throwing the household garbage in the right bin.
The rectangular black bin for bottles 'n cans.
The yellow wheelie bin for paper 'n cardboard.
The green wheelie bin (or compose heap) for garden refuse & foor scraps.
The grey bin for everything else.
The grey bin goes out once a week, the green bin with it every fortnight, the yellow 'n black bins every other fortnight. The black bin is designed so it can sit inside the yellow bin for transportation. So it just means wheeling out 2 bins one night a week instead of 1 bin.
Doesn't matter, there were some good comments in this thread about the matter:
California Considering Recycling Fees on PCs
StarTrek.org Free Webmail
In The Netherlands this system has been used for a couple of years now. It's not exclusively used for computers, but for other household appliances as well. From walkmans to refrigerators. The amount you pay depends on cost for recycling the product. For a walkman you pay somewhere around 2,50, for a refrigirator this can be around 75.
Insert nifty comment here
The next Service Pack for Windows XP will add a toll for using the Recycle Bin.
I design user interfaces for a free network management application,
Here in .BE, we already have that kind of thing, sort of ...
When you buy an new electronic or electric device (from your PC to your coffee-maker) you now have to pay a fee called the Recupel Tax. This tax (from € 0.5 for "small IT" over € 11 for a monitor to € 20 for a freezer) goes to an organisation that recycles the equipment.
As a side-effect (and this is quite handy) every time you buy something, the dealer is forced to accept your old equipment.
Somehow i think it's a GOOD thing, collecting a fee in front to make sure the disposal services have money to properly dispose of the goods! The article speaks(in my oppinion) wrongly about recycle money like on bottles, remember they use the money to properly dispose of all environment bad substances! i like that idea (not just becouse i am a father and want my kid to see trees in the futere too!) but not a per computer fee, it must be worked on a bit more before putting the raise on it :) (some materials of a computer are worse than others :)
Inkey
In the Netherlands, we have this already since a few years. It's a seperate tax on all electrical equipment and it has to mentioned on the pricing tag. I personally think it is a good thing.
Here in the Netherlands, we also pay environmental fees for most machines we buy - this money finances other environment-programmes. We have,for instance, an adequate pickup-service for small chemical waste (batteries, paint and stuff) which visits most Dutch houses regularly. Also, when you buy products that isolate houses (currently, you have to buy over 20 square meters of isolation) you can apply for a deduction - 30 to 70% of the costs, depending on the type and isolation-value of material, can be deducted this way. Projects like these are all financed by the fees we pay for 'polluting' hardware. Works like a charm, if you ask me. Last time I heard, there was actually more money coming in than out, so the gouvernment tuned down some fees.
This seems so unfair.
I've kept every computer I have ever bought. Why should I pay a fee for machines that are never disposed of? Of course there was that one Compucolor II that I placed into a dumpster quite a few years ago, although now it is worth more than I paid for it as a collectible! Go figure.
It doesn't make sense:
I would expect to get *paid* to recycle something. Getting paid for recycling means that the effort which went into recycling has value to society - when you do something that creates value for society, you expect to get paid.
When you do something that costs the society resources, you expect it to cost you something. Now, if it *costs* the consumer money to get the computer case recycled, it means that it costs more resources to recycle the case than what the product produced as a result of recycling is worth.
Which means that, on the balance, recycling *costs* the world resources. Which means that (in this case at least), recycling is a bad idea.
The other explanation is that the consumer is providing a subsidy to a company somewhere in the food chain...
And not only for computers, but for tv's, microwaves, even electrical shavers. Basically any electrical household equipment.
It's called a 'verwijderingsbijdrage', which literally means something like 'removal fee'. You don't ever get the money back. The fee is used to dismantle and recycle old stuff.
It was a clever decision, commercially. People usually buy more than they throw away. I hardly ever throw something away.
...that I can fit inside a computer case for only $30.
Now I have a way to get rid of all that depleted uranium in my basement.
SPAM
Here's a link to their general recycling program for laser and ink cartridges and PC hardware: http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/community/environment/rec ycle/index.htm.
HP is a bit expensive - to take a single PC, monitor and inkjet printer they'll charge US$59. For more than 10 pieces (say 5 old PCs, 3 old monitors, and 3 old printers) they have a custom quote page, so I assume prices get lower from there.
fencepost
just a little off
Hey, I'm all for it. :)
Of course, the irony of that is that paying the MS tax ensures that the computer will be obsolete and unusable much sooner than if it was running linux, thereby increasing the probability that it will end up on the scrap heap within three or four years. Whereas with linux you can easily get another four or five years of fileserving or routing out of a box, or even some kind of diskless workstation after the hd craps out.
At least not where I live. For a person to recycle their PC's THERE MUST BE A PLACE TO RECYCLE!!!! I gather from the comments that the idea is to use the tax to finance such centers. Fine, if they make them easy to get to and use. Based on past history, they won't! People will grumble about the extra cost, much like the SUV drivers grumble about gas prices, but they'll find it's more trouble than it's worth to recycle.
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
Basel Action Network
Silicon Valley Toxics Coalition
Here in Portland, Oregon, we are doing much the same thing. FREE GEEK takes in the donated hardware from individuals and small businesses and refurbishes them with GNU/Linux through the great efforts of our volunteers. I'm am really pleased that the ACCRC is self-supporting. We operate a 5,000 S.F. facility with a 5,000 S.F. annex with three staff. It costs us over $7,500 month to keep this facility running. At our current volume and capacity, we only generate about $5,000 per month. We dream of increasing our capacity to the point where the money we make from recycling exceeds our costs.
One problem I would like to hear how they solve is the monitor issue. It costs us an astronomical sum to process a monitor properly (about $18 per) and we receive about 20 a day. The closest facility that can handle them correctly is nearly 200 miles away in Seattle. Monitors need to be handled like hazardous waste if your going to deal with them domestically. If they get brokered overseas, there is no telling what happens to them. We sure as hell don't want them in a ditch by a river in China.