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Spider-Man, Star Wars and the Power of Myth
Like Star Wars, Spider-Man has the classic elements of a successful myth. A typically American story, it's less pretentious and hyped than Star Wars and more accessible to kids and die-hard comic book buffs, who remember the great, golden age of Marvel Comics. I'm one of them, I was there.
The old form still has legs. One film analysts told the Wall Street Journal last week that with the success of Spider-Man, the blockbuster bar has been raised. In fact, he said, this movie has changed Hollywood's perception of what a blockbuster is. That makes it interesting for George Lucas, next up at your local megaplex.
It's tough to explain, in the age of cable, gaming, the Net and the Web, just how central comics were for years to a culture of brainy, nerdy, alienated pre-Net teenage boys. Now, hostile jerks can flame people on the Net. Before, they could only read sci-fi books, build model planes and erector sets, but mostly, feast on comics and dream of becoming more powerful.
In the 21st century, they can download, program and game, but in the 50s and 60s, comic books and rock-and-roll were prominent among the few accessible forms of popular culture for individualists with brain cells, a cheap, simple pleasure that cost a dime, then a quarter. How shockingly primitive when compared to the world of the computer nerd or hacker.
Mainstream culture was dull, religiously appropriate and homogenized. Comic books and rock music were rebellious, subversive and naturally came under murderous fire from parents, teachers and politicians.
Before, they could only read comics and fantasize about becoming more powerful. Elaborate ratings systems and restrictive codes eventually suffocated the comics' angry, biting spirit and made them as bland as network TV -- a cultural loss and free-speech outrage heading soon to a computer near you -- but not before Marvel and other comic creators cranked out some classic yarns, from Spider-Man and Batman to the X-Men and other superheroic tales.
What makes these stories so popular and enduring? Perhaps because they all embody certain themes. There's the split-personality hero, usually a nerd who acquires great powers but at enormous cost, who always gets something and loses something. He gets to zip along past New York City skyscrapers, for instance, but we know he isn't likely to end up with the girl. Or, he lives in a mansion and drives a Batmobile, but he's depressed and lonely. Or he's a mutant wolverine with fingers of steel who can't ever have a casual beer with his pals.
He cherishes his powers, but we know he can't ever be comfortable with his life. Robert Kane's early Batman: The Dark Knight was disturbingly dark and angry before the moralists turned comic books to bland mush. Few people remember that Kane ended his first Batman series with our hero giving up on life and essentially committing suicide by turning himself into the famed Arkham Asylum, where villains from the Joker to the Riddler were being held.
Stories like Spider-Man and Batman also have a uniquely American and, until September 11, old-fashioned sense of civics. Spider-man's motto is "With great power comes great responsibility, " a bizarre notion even to hackers. Wouldn't that have seemed clunky before the terrorist attacks? Now it has a certain resonance.
Batman's Bruce Wayne, along with the Superhero stars and any number of X-Men, never shirk their duty to the public, even though the fickle populace is sure, at some point, to turn on them. No matter how tempted, they are, they do what they're supposed to do.
The late teacher and mythologist Joseph Campbell wrote that myth was still one of the powerful forces in the world. The origins and power of myth are still central, from the comic book lover to the hacker. The success of revived yarns like Stan Lee's Spider-Man, while they rarely seem to take themselves as seriously as their fans take them, is amazing, and proves his point. We seem to constantly be turning backwards to myths for inspiration and entertainment, while we are busy making the myths of tomorrow but don't really know which ones will take.
The Spider-Man story is pretty basic, especially when compared to the lumbering twists and turns of Star Wars: wimpy outer-borough kid contracts enormous powers, learns to use them wisely and well, faces terrible danger, sacrifices much.
Peter Parker isn't as deep as the Skywalker brothers and Uncle Ben is no Obi-Wan. But as the box office receipts demonstrate, the writers at Marvel comics have held their own when it comes to myth-making. Sometimes, simpler is better.
hate to tell you, but Lucas ripped off the Campbell angle quite a few years ago. Katz is just regurgitates crap from Salon -- and poorly at that.
there is no spoon()
Katz posted something reasonable!
I'll bet there will be more reasonable and pleased responses to this than to any other Katz article, and hopefully teach Katz something about the power and nature of a good review.
is competition good, or is duplication of effort bad?
"more accessible to kids"
Isn't it rated PG-13 vs. Star Wars' PG ratings?
Kiss my bass.
SW2 would actually have to be worse than SW1 for it to make less money than Spider-Man, while it looks as if it is at least marginally better.
Here's my summary of the Spider Man Myth (AKA The Human Spider)
5 minutes action, 115 minutes love story.
Too many inaccuracies between frames...
Skywalker had a brother? Which Skywalker? Not Luke (maybe Jon Katz has the Really Special Edition, who knows). I know Anakin doesn't have a brother... hmmm... another Katz mix up?
"Backups are for wimps. Real men upload their data to an FTP site and have everyone else mirror it." -- Linus Torvalds
The skywalker brothers? Is that a typo?
There is no spork.
Behold, the power of cheese. (just joking :)
Say what you want about Katz, I think he got this one right.
The simple truth is that interstellar distances will not fit into the human imagination
- Douglas Adams
What about Steve Ditko?
The answer is simple: advertising.
JonKatz, if you looked around you would have seen how much advertising and tie-ins there were to these movies.
I do not think they in any way qualify as modern myth. Something more likely to have that honour is `Lord of the Rings' (the book, not the movie! I hated the movie).
...not Bob Kane.
A sentence you'll never see on an Internet discussion board: "You know what? You're right."
Should have read this first. This article should be moderated -1 Flamebait.
.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
Actually, Leia and Luke are brothers
the web-slinging arachnoid-nerd from Queens who gets the bad guy but really wants the girl
This reminds me of something!
$ /usr/games/fortune -o
Fortune's Guide to Movies:
G: No girl.
PG: The hero gets the girl.
R: The bad guy gets the girl, then the good guy gets the girl.
X: The hero still gets the girl in the end, but he's never sure which end it will be.
XXX: Everybody gets the girl.
I am so witty today!!1!
That's a bet I'd take.
Never take moderation advice from sigs, including this one.
Why is it so essential to try to analyze something that should just be left alone. Let it be what it is, don't try to explain it, compare it, what ever. Those of us who read/saw/etc Spiderman etc and those who didn't really don't need the effort. Its part of your life and it relates to you, or it doesn't, you learn what you can from it, the experience is solely yours. Sheesh.
Perhaps you can learn a bit from Ben Parker: "With great power comes great responsibility".
Now how about adapting that to more meaningful journalism, instead of trying to over analyze everything.
I'll bet Peter Parker's adventure surpasses the upcoming opening weekend of Attack of the Clones
When considering the fact that unless my sources are mistaken Spiderman made MORE money on opening weekend than Episode One (in fact I heard that Spidy set some records) and there is MUCH LESS hype about Episode 2 than Episode One I think that might just be a somewhat safe bet.
I stole this Sig
Salon had an interesting editorial presenting
a different perspective, suggesting that Star Wars had
its roots in sci fi fiction rather than grand myths.
Check it out, it's a worthwhile read.
-- Martini
I'm confused tho, what's Katz conclusion about why spider-man succeeds where the Star Wars saga is failing?
I'm not the least surprized that spiderman did that well. IMHO it was a combination of a character that we (well tons of us any way) loved since childhood, and the fact that it was not marketed to death like the episode 1 was. I don't really expect the movie industry to pick up on that, so I'm sure they will market the sequal out the yang, and it won't do as well.
Sigs are out of style, so I'm not going to use one...oh wait..
A quick glance over his last 20 stories show an avergae of 370 comments per story, his top three garnering 1021, 713 and 633. This man walks right behind the fury of the anti-MS brigade.
Strange thing is, Katz is universally (face it, Slashdot is our universe) abhorred, belittled and flamed week after week, yet remains gainfully(?) employed by Slashdot, and continues to pull in the page views.
In summation, the perfect troll. ;)
Seriously, you guys should be getting money for hyping these films. In a year, when Spider-Man is long forgotten (except for the upcoming sequel!) and everyone is jonesing about Hockey Wonder Twins in Space or some New Great Movie, I suspect we'll be seeing articles about how nothing that came before Hockey Wonder Twins in Space would ever match up! And the storyline of these two loveable twins playing hockey in space is a bombshell for Hollywood! And no one ever expected the movie to do this well! (Yeah, right. When you pay 50 million dollars to hype Spider-Man, here's a hint: Spider-Man is going to do well.)
As far as teaching Lucas new tricks about mythology, didn't he basically rip off the storyline of Star Wars from other places (most notably, Kurosawa's Hidden Fortress) and put it in a sci-fi costume? I think Salon just had a story the other day about how Lucas is hardly a bastion of mythology.
Batman is a DC Comic, not Marvel.
Marvel: X-Men, Spiderman, Hulk
DC: Batman, Superman, Justice League
...that Spider-Man will have a significantly larger opening weekend than AOTC, because AOTC is opening on far fewer screens. The only valid comparison will be what their total gross is once they've had their runs.
Incidentally, there is concern in the press that Spider-Man may peak too early because it opened on so many screens; however, I'm sure it was intentional, as they knew they had to make as much money as possible in the two weeks before AOTC opened.
On the farm in SW, uncle owen was the related family member. Was this "uncle" in name only?
As I begun to read it:
"Oh great, another JonKatz rant..."
After the first paragraph or two though, I began to think:
"Hm, maybe Jon gets a bad rap too much, this actually makes a bit of sense."
Then he started tying in the net and how script kiddies are today's version of comic book readers:
"Well, he started off well, this is kind of a little out-there, but I'll cut him some slack."
Then he starts talking about the post-9/11 meaning of sci-fi:
"Forget it, this guys a twit. I shouldn't have even started reading it."
Moral of the story: Jon can write pretty well if he wants to. Not everything has to deal with 9/11 though or about the alienation of nerds and geeks.
int func(int a);
func((b += 3, b));
Did you know that spider silk has a tensile strength stronger than steel, is the toughest fibre known to man, and is compatible with the biology of the human body? Also, my girlfriend wanted me to mention that like spiderman, I too can shoot out a sticky white substance.
consider coffee a lubricant that helps one penetrate the coding zone
"compared to the increasingly elephantine Skywalker saga, which seems more like a graduate program than a story each time there's a new movie"... hmm, seems like Katz was busy reading the New York Times review of the movie. A.O.Scott wrote a clever and interesting review. Katz, obviously "borrowed" from that, but didn't manage to borrow the "clever" or "interesting" factors. What an idiot. OK...I understand that there's a feature here somewhere such that all Katz postings never show up for me, eh? Time to make use of that!!
It only took 1 week for the Katz analysis. I should have known that Cmdr Taco's review would not be the final word.
We all hoped too soon.
"Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion." Sun Tzu
How about the (soon to be movie) Hulk? He always seemed to be the prototypical super hero for stereotypical pimplyfaced teens. The Hulk was someone that kids could easily relate to as he centered around the base emotion of anger. Everyone knows anger.
" I'll bet Peter Parker's adventure surpasses the upcoming opening weekend of Attack of the Clones and teaches George Lucas something about the power and nature of myth. "
Can you moderate a post as Flamebait?
Tell me that throwing this into a nerd discussion isn't like throwing raw steak into a den of hungry lions
I was reading the summary and noted that the use of "elephantine" sounded both odd for a Katz article and strangely familiar.
From the New York Times review:
---
Like weary Brezhnev-era Muscovites, the American moviegoing public will line up out of habit and compulsion, ruefully hoping that this episode will at least be a little better than the last one, and perhaps inwardly suspecting that the whole elephantine system is rotten.
---
Very interesting..
Spider-man's springboard was an comic which has it's glory days in the past (comic sales are lower than decades past, probably due to computers, video games, etc.) and an incredibly inane and plodding newspaper strip. That it's done so well most likely speaks volumes (largely ignored in Hollywood) at the value of producing family entertainment. I'm old enough to remember when 'R' rated films only came through town once in a while, now they're usually 50% of what's showing, if not more. Even PG-13 stuff can be pretty awful, so when the old web slinger hit the screens it was a safe bet that kids would be there, most of the viewers in the lines I saw were of the ankle-biter variety. Lasting power, of course remains to be seen.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
This space for rent.
How come Slashdot never gets Slashdotted?
It's tough to explain... just how central comics were for years to a culture of brainy, nerdy, alienated pre-Net teenage boys.
Are you fucking kidding? Comic books were cool for everyone when they were kids. It's really fucking weak that you people try to say that everything you like is "for nerds only". Or that only nerds understand comic books. Every kid liked comics when he was growing up, nerd or not.
-dbc
Plenty of advertising and marketing tie-ins.
Pathetic movie, mercifully forgotten
There's more to a making a story popular and enduring than hype
Or he's a mutant wolverine with fingers of steel who can't ever have a casual beer with his pals.
Obviously, you're talking out of your ass again. Wolvie has adamantium claws and frequents bars quite often, usually enjoying a brewsky or two. Hell, he's Canadian and if you don't drink at least two beers a day, they'll deport your ass faster than you can say "Hockey Night in Canada".
Nothing to see here, move along.
Linux - Because Mommy taught me to Share.
The movie caught the spirit of the old superhero comics, and did it well. Dafoe was exactly OTT enough for a Spiderman villain, and the girl just as curvaceous as I (nearly!) remember from the 60's. Any more analysis than that is just pretentious crap. Lighten up, enjoy the comic!
for all you midless twits in an attempt to save some bandwidth and disk space: "Jon Katz BAD. Linux GOOD. Jon Katz like MICROSOFT. Jon Katz like RIAA. Jon Katz like WIPO. Linux like SOFT FLUFFY BUNNIES. Linux like, uh, like LINUX."
...you decide.
stop starting your sentences with "or" or "but", jackass.
Mr. Katz, before you run your mouth about what does and does not consititute myth, may I suggest you do something really basic: learn what myths are and how they work. May I suggest you take a look at the works of Joseph Campbell before you decide whether Lucas has anything to learn about myth.
We have sentimental attachments to Star Wars because it's myth lite: the orphaned hero, the vision quest, etc., etc. Many of us have seen or read the Joseph Campbell take on the Star Wars trilogy, and I won't bother rehashing it here.
The advertising and tie-ins prolong the life of our sentimentality, way, way beyond what its natural lifespan probably would have been. But make no mistake: Star Wars succeeded because it was a greco-roman myth masquerading as a western masquerading as sci-fi.
Not to mention Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford were f***ing hot in that movie.
Here are some of the themes:
t ion
Sexual jealousy
Murder
Envy
Revenge
Paranoia
Domina
Repressed Homoeroticism
Oedipus complex
Rock On !!
>and Uncle Ben is no Obi-Wan
Um Well, actually...
Now, hostile jerks can flame people on the Net.
Oh please! Like you have any experience with that!
And I am not sure what people are talking about on the marketing stuff. I tried to get Voice Stream first because I think Jamie Lee Curtis is HOT! She turned me down, so I have Cingular on the VisorPhone now. Just check my journal.
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
Campbell is a dead-white-guy (even while living) who saw everything in terms of other dead-white-guy stories. He attempted to shoe-horn other cultures and their stories into Western style myths, and then pointed out how clever he was.
Anybody why even glibpses a page of Mr. Campbell's PBS-style writings starts seening everything in tems of myth. "The milk being poured into my fruit-loops is like the story of the Hero's of Yore who travel on an Adventure, only to come back to a decimated homeland"
The guy had a cerain nack of getting grants to do his "craft", I'll give him that, but his readers rank up there with readers of and Ayn Rand and Chompsky, they start to see everything in terms of their favorite new book.
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
Now, hostile jerks can flame people on the Net.
/. users who always pick on my film reviews!) ;-)
(Like those bastard
Before, they could only read comics and fantasize about becoming more powerful.
Yeah, and I'm floored that he didn't stick a "post-Columbine" reference in here! And I didn't see globalism mentioned once! Has the world turned topsy-turvy?
GMD
watch this
Why not just say "arachnerd"?
Best Slashdot Co
To me it doesn't make much sense to compare these two movies nor do I think there's anything to be gained from insinuating George Lucas needs to learn something from Spider-Man.
First, they are two separate genres. Sam Raimi needed to live up to the expectations set by the comic book. George Lucas needs to live up to his previous films. Lucas has to create the material where Raimi needs more to interpret. Lucas doesn't always succeed at not ripping off others but still, he has to create his material. This doesn't lessen Raimi's work--in many ways it is more difficult to interpret.
Second, film is art. Art shouldn't be derivative of what is "hot" at the box office. If Star Wars was derivative of what was being shown at the time we'd have a much different film. If anything, Lucas should *ignore* other films and get back to making a story that interests him. Star Wars interested him--Episode I sought to provide something for everyone else.
I have to disagree, as always, with Katz. Lucas needs to look inward and not to Campbell, Raimi, or even Stan Lee for help with his picture.
Of course we torture people, we need the information --Gen. Pinochet
I went to see Spider-Man because I've loved the character since I was a kid. I've since recommended the movie to anybody who wants to know because I liked it. Yes, Spider-Man was heavily advertised. None of that made any difference to me.
Obviously advertising can make a big difference in the popularity of a product, but if you would bother to read any Advertising 101 textbook you'll find out that advertising is most effective for differentiating products that have litle difference. That's why there's so much advertising for laundary detergent: they're all the same. Movies may appear to be very different to movie fans, but in terms of consumer perception movies are almost a commodity: they are one of several options for a weekend's entertainment. Lucas could have done no advertising whatsoever for AOTC and all the Star Wars fans would have still showed up with their plastic light sabers, but the general public who simply want to know what to do for a date or some time with the kids would have ignored it.
(There are also other intentions for advertising besides product differentiation. Insert standard AIDA lecture here.)
So now I put the question back to you: you've spent your money on products before. Do *you* only buy products because of advertising? If not, whty do you assume everyone else is an advertising drone?
Miko O'Sullivan
Peter Parker isn't as deep as the Skywalker brothers
;)
The "Skywalker brothers"? Is Jon just a dumbass or did he just spoil the new movie?
Guess I'll find out when I finish this download
Who is this "mutant wolverine with fingers of steel who can't ever have a casual beer with his pals." that you speak of??? I know of a mutant who is named Wolverine and has metal claws on his hands. Is that who you were referring to? What's this about Skywalker brothers? Did you mistake Carrie Fischer for a man?? Have you even seen Star Wars??? Perhaps you should actually acquaint yourself with the material before commenting on it. Just a thought.
He managed to squeeze a reference to 9-11 in a freakin cartoon review. I love it. I had no idea the world was as deep and mysterious until Mr. Katz started writing. I think I will go buy his book on dogs to see if I am missing something there too.
***I GOT NUTHIN***
He gets to zip along past New York City skyscrapers, for instance, but we know he isn't likely to end up with the girl. Or he's a mutant wolverine with fingers of steel who can't ever have a casual beer with his pals.
From those two statements it's pretty obvious (like we didn't already know it before) that he's full of shit. I'm guessing he's talking about Wolverine as the mutant, but to call that him a "mutant wolverine" is a pretty good sign that you know absolutely nothing about the character.
And some of the best Wolverine stories told involve him out with his friends for a beer. One of my personal favorites is when Wolvie and Nightcrawler took Colussus out for a beer. The night ended with Colussus getting drunk and picking a fight with the Juggernaut.
And Spidey never getting the girls? Where the fuck did that come from? Sure it started out that way, but Gwen Stacey was a babe. He married Mary Jane, and she was a friggin model / tv star.
That's enough outta me.
I can't help but notice... First, two passages from the recently posted NY Times review:
"Clones" takes place 10 years after "Episode I -- The Phantom Menace," and it is as thick with exposition as an undergraduate history course.
Like weary Brezhnev-era Muscovites, the American moviegoing public will line up out of habit and compulsion, ruefully hoping that this episode will at least be a little better than the last one, and perhaps inwardly suspecting that the whole elephantine system is rotten.
Now take a look at Mr. Katz's blurb, where he opens up by describing the flick thus: "increasingly elephantine Skywalker saga" and "seems more like a graduate program." Coincidence, subliminal residue from a review he probably read 15 minutes ago, or something a bit more sinister?
"I am just a customs officer; but I, too, wish to understand what is going on" -- Bertold Brecht
I'll bet Peter Parker's adventure surpasses the upcoming opening weekend of Attack of the Clones and teaches George Lucas something about the power and nature of myth.
The first part wouldn't surprise me too much, the second part would surprise me greatly.
Brian
In 1939, Gone With the Wind grossed a total of about $192 million ..adjusted for inflaction, it made about $2.3 BILLION DOLLARS.
i es.html) for my info.
In 1997, Titanic grossed about $600 million...adjusted for inflation...$0.6 BILLION.
So..Gone With the Wind made 3.83 TIMES AS MUCH as Titanic...
You wonder why they don't do things in terms of tickets sold don't you? They just keep increasing the price of movies so they can say last year's movie beat the year before's.
And yes, I do realize that these aren't opening week ticket sales; they are the total income for the movies.
I used this: Site (http://history.acusd.edu/gen/filmnotes/costs-mov
...sigh...you'd expect the Slashdot crowd to realize this...but since we're talking about Katz...I guess it slides.
...before the moralists turned comic books to bland mush.
Well, they obviously haven't gotten hold of Johnny the Homicidal Maniac
Not everything has to deal with 9/11 though or about the alienation of nerds and geeks.
;-)
He writes about Columbine too! Well, ok that is covered by the alienation thing but it IS a different event
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
...committing suicide by turning himself into the famed Arkham Asylum
I knew Batman was powerful, but I had no idea that he could transmute into works of architecture!
-- Give me ambiguity or give me something else!
Spider-man and Batman have been around longer than Star Wars. Had Star Wars been created created about the same time as these two, it would be a different story. Star Wars would also be a popular comic book (or some other form of medium).
NEWS FLASH
Some of us non-nerdy girls can relate to Peter Parker, too.
This film didn't shock anybody. The critics pretty much universly loved the film. JonKatz should do just a tad more research before he bases an entire article off of a preposterous claim.
If you just go to RottenTomatoes.com which compiles move reviews into one big list and takes the ratio of good to bad you'd know that SpiderMan got an unusually high 84% positive reviews. Check out the reviews
Offtopic: also check out the review for one of the worst movies of all time: Battlefield Earth. Some of the reviews are so funny it nearly makes me want to cry.
The Generation
I'd say something witty here, but I'm not that bright.
Which analysts and critics are these? I heard not one person say anything about Spider Man before it debuted except that it would be a blockbuster.
in case of slashdotting..... (Score:-1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 10, @11:05AM (#3497247) Spider-Man shocked analysts and critics last week, racking up a record-breaking $114 million opening weekend for Sam Raimi's warm-hearted adaptation about the web-slinging arachnoid-nerd from Queens who gets the bad guy but really wants the girl. Spider-Man embodies the simplest, most elemental tenets of myth, especially when compared to the increasingly elephantine Skywalker saga, which seems more like a graduate program than a story each time there's a new movie. I'll bet Peter Parker's adventure surpasses the upcoming opening weekend of Attack of the Clones and teaches George Lucas something about the power and nature of myth. Like Star Wars, Spider-Man has the classic elements of a successful myth. A typically American story, it's less pretentious and hyped than Star Wars and more accessible to kids and die-hard comic book buffs, who remember the great, golden age of Marvel Comics. I'm one of them, I was there. The old form still has legs. One film analysts told the Wall Street Journal last week that with the success of Spider-Man, the blockbuster bar has been raised. In fact, he said, this movie has changed Hollywood's perception of what a blockbuster is. That makes it interesting for George Lucas, next up at your local megaplex. It's tough to explain, in the age of cable, gaming, the Net and the Web, just how central comics were for years to a culture of brainy, nerdy, alienated pre-Net teenage boys. Now, hostile jerks can flame people on the Net. Before, they could only read sci-fi books, build model planes and erector sets, but mostly, feast on comics and dream of becoming more powerful. In the 21st century, they can download, program and game, but in the 50s and 60s, comic books and rock-and-roll were prominent among the few accessible forms of popular culture for individualists with brain cells, a cheap, simple pleasure that cost a dime, then a quarter. How shockingly primitive when compared to the world of the computer nerd or hacker. Mainstream culture was dull, religiously appropriate and homogenized. Comic books and rock music were rebellious, subversive and naturally came under murderous fire from parents, teachers and politicians. Before, they could only read comics and fantasize about becoming more powerful. Elaborate ratings systems and restrictive codes eventually suffocated the comics' angry, biting spirit and made them as bland as network TV -- a cultural loss and free-speech outrage heading soon to a computer near you -- but not before Marvel and other comic creators cranked out some classic yarns, from Spider-Man and Batman to the X-Men and other superheroic tales. What makes these stories so popular and enduring? Perhaps because they all embody certain themes. There's the split-personality hero, usually a nerd who acquires great powers but at enormous cost, who always gets something and loses something. He gets to zip along past New York City skyscrapers, for instance, but we know he isn't likely to end up with the girl. Or, he lives in a mansion and drives a Batmobile, but he's depressed and lonely. Or he's a mutant wolverine with fingers of steel who can't ever have a casual beer with his pals. He cherishes his powers, but we know he can't ever be comfortable with his life. Robert Kane's early Batman: The Dark Knight was disturbingly dark and angry before the moralists turned comic books to bland mush. Few people remember that Kane ended his first Batman series with our hero giving up on life and essentially committing suicide by turning himself into the famed Arkham Asylum, where villains from the Joker to the Riddler were being held. Stories like Spider-Man and Batman also have a uniquely American and, until September 11, old-fashioned sense of civics. Spider-man's motto is "With great power comes great responsibility, " a bizarre notion even to hackers. Wouldn't that have seemed clunky before the terrorist attacks? Now it has a certain resonance. Batman's Bruce Wayne, along with the Superhero stars and any number Read the rest of this comment... [ Reply to This | Parent ] in case the comment gets slashdotted (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 10, @11:11AM (#3497304) Spider-Man shocked analysts and critics last week, racking up a record-breaking $114 million opening weekend for Sam Raimi's warm-hearted adaptation about the web-slinging arachnoid-nerd from Queens who gets the bad guy but really wants the girl. Spider-Man embodies the simplest, most elemental tenets of myth, especially when compared to the increasingly elephantine Skywalker saga, which seems more like a graduate program than a story each time there's a new movie. I'll bet Peter Parker's adventure surpasses the upcoming opening weekend of Attack of the Clones and teaches George Lucas something about the power and nature of myth. Like Star Wars, Spider-Man has the classic elements of a successful myth. A typically American story, it's less pretentious and hyped than Star Wars and more accessible to kids and die-hard comic book buffs, who remember the great, golden age of Marvel Comics. I'm one of them, I was there. The old form still has legs. One film analysts told the Wall Street Journal last week that with the success of Spider-Man, the blockbuster bar has been raised. In fact, he said, this movie has changed Hollywood's perception of what a blockbuster is. That makes it interesting for George Lucas, next up at your local megaplex. It's tough to explain, in the age of cable, gaming, the Net and the Web, just how central comics were for years to a culture of brainy, nerdy, alienated pre-Net teenage boys. Now, hostile jerks can flame people on the Net. Before, they could only read sci-fi books, build model planes and erector sets, but mostly, feast on comics and dream of becoming more powerful. In the 21st century, they can download, program and game, but in the 50s and 60s, comic books and rock-and-roll were prominent among the few accessible forms of popular culture for individualists with brain cells, a cheap, simple pleasure that cost a dime, then a quarter. How shockingly primitive when compared to the world of the computer nerd or hacker. Mainstream culture was dull, religiously appropriate and homogenized. Comic books and rock music were rebellious, subversive and naturally came under murderous fire from parents, teachers and politicians. Before, they could only read comics and fantasize about becoming more powerful. Elaborate ratings systems and restrictive codes eventually suffocated the comics' angry, biting spirit and made them as bland as network TV -- a cultural loss and free-speech outrage heading soon to a computer near you -- but not before Marvel and other comic creators cranked out some classic yarns, from Spider-Man and Batman to the X-Men and other superheroic tales. What makes these stories so popular and enduring? Perhaps because they all embody certain themes. There's the split-personality hero, usually a nerd who acquires great powers but at enormous cost, who always gets something and loses something. He gets to zip along past New York City skyscrapers, for instance, but we know he isn't likely to end up with the girl. Or, he lives in a mansion and drives a Batmobile, but he's depressed and lonely. Or he's a mutant wolverine with fingers of steel who can't ever have a casual beer with his pals. He cherishes his powers, but we know he can't ever be comfortable with his life. Robert Kane's early Batman: The Dark Knight was disturbingly dark and angry before the moralists turned comic books to bland mush. Few people remember that Kane ended his first Batman series with our hero giving up on life and essentially committing suicide by turning himself into the famed Arkham Asylum, where villains from the Joker to the Riddler were being held. Stories like Spider-Man and Batman also have a uniquely American and, until September 11, old-fashioned sense of civics. Spider-man's motto is "With great power comes great responsibility, " a bizarre notion even to hackers. Wouldn't that have seemed clunky before the terrorist attacks? Now it has a certain resonance. Batman's Bruce Wayne, along with the Superhero stars and any number Read the rest of this comment... [ Reply to This | Parent ] Re:in case the comment gets slashdotted (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 10, @11:17AM (#3497349) Spider-Man shocked analysts and critics last week, racking up a record-breaking $114 million opening weekend for Sam Raimi's warm-hearted adaptation about the web-slinging arachnoid-nerd from Queens who gets the bad guy but really wants the girl. Spider-Man embodies the simplest, most elemental tenets of myth, especially when compared to the increasingly elephantine Skywalker saga, which seems more like a graduate program than a story each time there's a new movie. I'll bet Peter Parker's adventure surpasses the upcoming opening weekend of Attack of the Clones and teaches George Lucas something about the power and nature of myth. Like Star Wars, Spider-Man has the classic elements of a successful myth. A typically American story, it's less pretentious and hyped than Star Wars and more accessible to kids and die-hard comic book buffs, who remember the great, golden age of Marvel Comics. I'm one of them, I was there. The old form still has legs. One film analysts told the Wall Street Journal last week that with the success of Spider-Man, the blockbuster bar has been raised. In fact, he said, this movie has changed Hollywood's perception of what a blockbuster is. That makes it interesting for George Lucas, next up at your local megaplex. It's tough to explain, in the age of cable, gaming, the Net and the Web, just how central comics were for years to a culture of brainy, nerdy, alienated pre-Net teenage boys. Now, hostile jerks can flame people on the Net. Before, they could only read sci-fi books, build model planes and erector sets, but mostly, feast on comics and dream of becoming more powerful. In the 21st century, they can download, program and game, but in the 50s and 60s, comic books and rock-and-roll were prominent among the few accessible forms of popular culture for individualists with brain cells, a cheap, simple pleasure that cost a dime, then a quarter. How shockingly primitive when compared to the world of the computer nerd or hacker. Mainstream culture was dull, religiously appropriate and homogenized. Comic books and rock music were rebellious, subversive and naturally came under murderous fire from parents, teachers and politicians. Before, they could only read comics and fantasize about becoming more powerful. Elaborate ratings systems and restrictive codes eventually suffocated the comics' angry, biting spirit and made them as bland as network TV -- a cultural loss and free-speech outrage heading soon to a computer near you -- but not before Marvel and other comic creators cranked out some classic yarns, from Spider-Man and Batman to the X-Men and other superheroic tales. What makes these stories so popular and enduring? Perhaps because they all embody certain themes. There's the split-personality hero, usually a nerd who acquires great powers but at enormous cost, who always gets something and loses something. He gets to zip along past New York City skyscrapers, for instance, but we know he isn't likely to end up with the girl. Or, he lives in a mansion and drives a Batmobile, but he's depressed and lonely. Or he's a mutant wolverine with fingers of steel who can't ever have a casual beer with his pals. He cherishes his powers, but we know he can't ever be comfortable with his life. Robert Kane's early Batman: The Dark Knight was disturbingly dark and angry before the moralists turned comic books to bland mush. Few people remember that Kane ended his first Batman series with our hero giving up on life and essentially committing suicide by turning himself into the famed Arkham Asylum, where villains from the Joker to the Riddler were being held. Stories like Spider-Man and Batman also have a uniquely American and, until September 11, old-fashioned sense of civics. Spider-man's motto is "With great power comes great responsibility, " a bizarre notion even to hackers. Wouldn't that have seemed clunky before the terrorist attacks? Now it has a certain resonance. Batman's Bruce Wayne, along with the Superhero stars and any number Read the rest of this comment... [ Reply to This | Parent Read the rest of this comment... [ Reply to This | Parent ] Re:in case the comment gets slashdotted (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 10, @11:19AM (#3497367) in case of slashdotting..... (Score:-1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 10, @11:05AM (#3497247) Spider-Man shocked analysts and critics last week, racking up a record-breaking $114 million opening weekend for Sam Raimi's warm-hearted adaptation about the web-slinging arachnoid-nerd from Queens who gets the bad guy but really wants the girl. Spider-Man embodies the simplest, most elemental tenets of myth, especially when compared to the increasingly elephantine Skywalker saga, which seems more like a graduate program than a story each time there's a new movie. I'll bet Peter Parker's adventure surpasses the upcoming opening weekend of Attack of the Clones and teaches George Lucas something about the power and nature of myth. Like Star Wars, Spider-Man has the classic elements of a successful myth. A typically American story, it's less pretentious and hyped than Star Wars and more accessible to kids and die-hard comic book buffs, who remember the great, golden age of Marvel Comics. I'm one of them, I was there. The old form still has legs. One film analysts told the Wall Street Journal last week that with the success of Spider-Man, the blockbuster bar has been raised. In fact, he said, this movie has changed Hollywood's perception of what a blockbuster is. That makes it interesting for George Lucas, next up at your local megaplex. It's tough to explain, in the age of cable, gaming, the Net and the Web, just how central comics were for years to a culture of brainy, nerdy, alienated pre-Net teenage boys. Now, hostile jerks can flame people on the Net. Before, they could only read sci-fi books, build model planes and erector sets, but mostly, feast on comics and dream of becoming more powerful. In the 21st century, they can download, program and game, but in the 50s and 60s, comic books and rock-and-roll were prominent among the few accessible forms of popular culture for individualists with brain cells, a cheap, simple pleasure that cost a dime, then a quarter. How shockingly primitive when compared to the world of the computer nerd or hacker. Mainstream culture was dull, religiously appropriate and homogenized. Comic books and rock music were rebellious, subversive and naturally came under murderous fire from parents, teachers and politicians. Before, they could only read comics and fantasize about becoming more powerful. Elaborate ratings systems and restrictive codes eventually suffocated the comics' angry, biting spirit and made them as bland as network TV -- a cultural loss and free-speech outrage heading soon to a computer near you -- but not before Marvel and other comic creators cranked out some classic yarns, from Spider-Man and Batman to the X-Men and other superheroic tales. What makes these stories so popular and enduring? Perhaps because they all embody certain themes. There's the split-personality hero, usually a nerd who acquires great powers but at enormous cost, who always gets something and loses something. He gets to zip along past New York City skyscrapers, for instance, but we know he isn't likely to end up with the girl. Or, he lives in a mansion and drives a Batmobile, but he's depressed and lonely. Or he's a mutant wolverine with fingers of steel who can't ever have a casual beer with his pals. He cherishes his powers, but we know he can't ever be comfortable with his life. Robert Kane's early Batman: The Dark Knight was disturbingly dark and angry before the moralists turned comic books to bland mush. Few people remember that Kane ended his first Batman series with our hero giving up on life and essentially committing suicide by turning himself into the famed Arkham Asylum, where villains from the Joker to the Riddler were being held. Stories like Spider-Man and Batman also have a uniquely American and, until September 11, old-fashioned sense of civics. Spider-man's motto is "With great power comes great responsibility, " a bizarre notion even to hackers. Wouldn't that have seemed clunky before the terrorist attacks? Now it has a certain resonance. Batman's Bruce W Read the rest of this comment... [ Reply to This | Parent ] Re:in case the comment gets slashdotted (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 10, @11:24AM (#3497407) case of slashdotting..... (Score:-1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 10, @11:05AM (#3497247) Spider-Man shocked analysts and critics last week, racking up a record-breaking $114 million opening weekend for Sam Raimi's warm-hearted adaptation about the web-slinging arachnoid-nerd from Queens who gets the bad guy but really wants the girl. Spider-Man embodies the simplest, most elemental tenets of myth, especially when compared to the increasingly elephantine Skywalker saga, which seems more like a graduate program than a story each time there's a new movie. I'll bet Peter Parker's adventure surpasses the upcoming opening weekend of Attack of the Clones and teaches George Lucas something about the power and nature of myth. Like Star Wars, Spider-Man has the classic elements of a successful myth. A typically American story, it's less pretentious and hyped than Star Wars and more accessible to kids and die-hard comic book buffs, who remember the great, golden age of Marvel Comics. I'm one of them, I was there. The old form still has legs. One film analysts told the Wall Street Journal last week that with the success of Spider-Man, the blockbuster bar has been raised. In fact, he said, this movie has changed Hollywood's perception of what a blockbuster is. That makes it interesting for George Lucas, next up at your local megaplex. It's tough to explain, in the age of cable, gaming, the Net and the Web, just how central comics were for years to a culture of brainy, nerdy, alienated pre-Net teenage boys. Now, hostile jerks can flame people on the Net. Before, they could only read sci-fi books, build model planes and erector sets, but mostly, feast on comics and dream of becoming more powerful. In the 21st century, they can download, program and game, but in the 50s and 60s, comic books and rock-and-roll were prominent among the few accessible forms of popular culture for individualists with brain cells, a cheap, simple pleasure that cost a dime, then a quarter. How shockingly primitive when compared to the world of the computer nerd or hacker. Mainstream culture was dull, religiously appropriate and homogenized. Comic books and rock music were rebellious, subversive and naturally came under murderous fire from parents, teachers and politicians. Before, they could only read comics and fantasize about becoming more powerful. Elaborate ratings systems and restrictive codes eventually suffocated the comics' angry, biting spirit and made them as bland as network TV -- a cultural loss and free-speech outrage heading soon to a computer near you -- but not before Marvel and other comic creators cranked out some classic yarns, from Spider-Man and Batman to the X-Men and other superheroic tales. What makes these stories so popular and enduring? Perhaps because they all embody certain themes. There's the split-personality hero, usually a nerd who acquires great powers but at enormous cost, who always gets something and loses something. He gets to zip along past New York City skyscrapers, for instance, but we know he isn't likely to end up with the girl. Or, he lives in a mansion and drives a Batmobile, but he's depressed and lonely. Or he's a mutant wolverine with fingers of steel who can't ever have a casual beer with his pals. He cherishes his powers, but we know he can't ever be comfortable with his life. Robert Kane's early Batman: The Dark Knight was disturbingly dark and angry before the moralists turned comic books to bland mush. Few people remember that Kane ended his first Batman series with our hero giving up on life and essentially committing suicide by turning himself into the famed Arkham Asylum, where villains from the Joker to the Riddler were being held. Stories like Spider-Man and Batman also have a uniquely American and, until September 11, old-fashioned sense of civics. Spider-man's motto is "With great power comes great responsibility, " a bizarre notion even to hackers. Wouldn't that have seemed clunky before the terrorist attacks? Now it has a certain resonance. Batman's Bruce Way Read the rest of this comment... [ Reply to This | Parent ]
John Katz, couldn't you have looked past the first goddamn paragraph of the NYTimes review of AOC to find some catchy word to snip? I mean, my God, the NYT review was announced on slashdot today?
So, /. readers, from which articles did JK cut and paste to get his Spidey-man ideas?
Comic books by design are meant to have simple plots loaded with action. Star Wars on the other hand is a whole entire Universe filled with the complexities of real life in a distant fabled future. I'm nost so sure you can compare the two in any aspect. Just my $.02 :)
Eddy.WriteLinux.Com
What is this....star wars bashing day or something??
self-referential humor that lampoons the karma-whores around slashdot is probably too subtle for the average slashdotter these days...explaining both your current -1 (redundant) mod as well as why simple cut-n-paste karma-whoring seems to always work. no wonder you posted AC.
too many non-nerds on slashdot these days. a true nerd site would have sent that to +3 (funny) by now. future historians no doubt will trace the downfall of linux to the moment X windows worked out of the box on anything but an S3...
Fermat's other theorem: "I have a simple proof, but I can't write it down as I fear it's a DMCA violation to discuss it"
Hats off to Katz (for once), your article offered valuable insight. Anybody who flamed this one probably did it out of habit.
"A typically American story..."
oh come on! How the hell is Star Wars a "typical American story"? I find this offensive! The ideals embodied in Star Wars, the very notion of an epic saga, far outdates the formation of the United States. In its purest form, Star Wars is just a rehash of an old type of story - the Odyssey, for example. This is the kind of thing that transcends cultures.
I'm not going to comment on whether it applies to Spider Man or not - I haven't seen it - but for Katz to claim Star Wars as typically American just pisses me off. The world does not revolve around America I'm afraid Mr Katz.
-- james
I couldn't help but notice that Mr. Katz is not using his original thoughts, but plagirizing from an article posted here on /. earlier today.
Mr. Katz's quote:
most elemental tenets of myth, especially when compared to the increasingly elephantine Skywalker saga,
Quote from NY Times article, posted here:
and perhaps inwardly suspecting that the whole elephantine system is rotten.
Geez, stop stealing others' stuff and get an original thought, will ya?
Attention all planets of the Solar Federation! We have assumed control! - Neil Peart
Wow, I don't remember Batman becoming a building! Jon Katz, once again demonstrating the dangers of Spell Check vs. Proofreading. Perhaps Batman turned himself in to the Arkham Asylum, but then again it is a Comic book after all!
Spider-Man's box office success was all about timing. Box office sales in general have been very good lately, even though there has been little of worth to watch since January or so. Spider-Man offered a little something for everyone, teen-angst exhibited by two good looking young stars, a film portayal of a wildly popular comic book character, dazzling CGI effects, a two time academy award nominated actor as the villian, and a spirit of patriotism. The combination would be successful at anytime, but it didn't hurt that there was no real competition and hadn't been for some time.
IMO, Star Wars: Ep 2 will have it's work cut out to beat the $114M mark, but I still wouldn't bet against it. All the midnight and evening May 16th shows are already sold out here in Austin, and many of the weekend shows as well.
-- Adam
it is no wonder why you write such lame shit.
Either give it away or get top dollar, but never sell yourself cheap.
Comparing an apple to orange is the case here to me. We are comparing an original concept of George Lucas ("Super Genius" Wile E. Coyote) to a remake of a Stan Lee comic in which it is not Stan Lee directing it or orchestrating it. Don't get me wrong Stan Lee was also a "Super Genius," however this is not his movie.
There is also a difference in the type of movie that Star Wars is and the type of movie that Spider-Man is. Star Wars is an established epic or saga that has been successful in the eighties and is continuing now in the 21st century. Spider-Man in the other hand is a fad for all we know right now (i.e. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: The Movie) that hasn't had the long running or sequel to succeed it yet. Maybe it will, however it will never be in the same class or category. Is like matching up the Batman movies to Star Wars. Actually, that is probably a better match up, Batman and Spider-man in the box office (Marvel meet DC all over again baby!).
So, to conclude this epic long post, fine let's look at numbers, however if that is the case then compare Spider-Man to The Lord of the Rings to Harry Potter to Titanic, but leave the sacred Star Wars saga out of this race, George Lucas is going for quality here, not quantity ($).
. . . and the moral of this story kids: George Lucas is awesome!
"Entertain the Brutes"
This article sucks on so many levels, I've fscked my speech centre just thinking how to point it all out.
Katz can't write well or, if he can, he chooses not to in all of his writings that I've read. I'll grant you that he has a certain knack for artistically wrapping words up in today's style and making his writing and the events that he writes about sound more profound than they are really. However, the mark of a good writer is to communicate well and to shed some light on a subject. Katz fails miserably on both counts. His thoughts are clouded. His premises are often, undeniably, incorrect. His conclusions are often wrong, misguided, or completely unclear. Katz can't communicate anything clearly, never mind persuade. Jon's writing lacks any significant insight on anything. What's more, besides just being a hack, he's insincere. He is constantly jumping from bandwagon to bandwagon and cloaking his words in that certain vagueness to cater to his audiences' fickle cause du jour. I, for one, can't respect Katz.
... did John pay this time to get his drivil posted?
Seal up JK's mouth and super-glue his fingers together. What total freakin trash. Go ahead and mod me down, but talk about over generalizing and plain old wrong. If Katz could back up his argument and explain his perspective more effective, it would be one thing. But the man simply yaps his trap on a soap box and doesn't realize the delivery is everything.
Good movie too. Bought it for my stepdad on DVD.
I send you this message in order to have your advice.
Good try Katz, but you're full of hot air.
Spiderman will do better because it'll be a better movie. Episode I was so bad, people don't want to be tortured again. It's that fucking simple.
And this is coming from a guy with an Empire poster hanging on his wall signed by George Lucas, Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher, and Harrison Ford.
John Katz:Like Star Wars, Spider-Man has the classic elements of a successful myth.
Did I miss the part where he listed these classic elements?
John Katz:The old form still has legs.
Again. What form.
John Katz:Before, they could only read comics and fantasize about becoming more powerful.
Who is they? If your talking about the huddled masses of geekness, then I'd like to know under what pretensive storm of insight that we have become more powerful.
John Katz:Or he's a mutant wolverine with fingers of steel who can't ever have a casual beer with his pals.
Do you even read Marvel comics? I'm going to assume you mean wolverine. Who, BTW, is not a mutant wolverine, but a mutant human named wolverine. And his claws are retractable. Of course he can drink beer with his friends. Of course a long time reader such as yourself should be able to count the number of times on one hand that we've seen Wolverine drink beer. He smokes cigars and drinks the occassional hard liquor. My guess is Canadian whiskey. You do know he's from Canada, right?
John Katz:Stories like Spider-Man and Batman also have a uniquely American and, until September 11, old-fashioned sense of civics.
Huh?
John Katz:We seem to constantly be turning backwards to myths for inspiration and entertainment, while we are busy making the myths of tomorrow but don't really know which ones will take.
Again, could you please explain what Myths you are talking about. You mean mythology like Greek, Norse and biblical tales? Please show me where in the bible I can find a masked superhero with arachnid powers.
in case of slashdotting..... (Score:-1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 10, @11:05AM (#3497247) Spider-Man shocked analysts and critics last week, racking up a record-breaking $114 million opening weekend for Sam Raimi's warm-hearted adaptation about the web-slinging arachnoid-nerd from Queens who gets the bad guy but really wants the girl. Spider-Man embodies the simplest, most elemental tenets of myth, especially when compared to the increasingly elephantine Skywalker saga, which seems more like a graduate program than a story each time there's a new movie. I'll bet Peter Parker's adventure surpasses the upcoming opening weekend of Attack of the Clones and teaches George Lucas something about the power and nature of myth. Like Star Wars, Spider-Man has the classic elements of a successful myth. A typically American story, it's less pretentious and hyped than Star Wars and more accessible to kids and die-hard comic book buffs, who remember the great, golden age of Marvel Comics. I'm one of them, I was there. The old form still has legs. One film analysts told the Wall Street Journal last week that with the success of Spider-Man, the blockbuster bar has been raised. In fact, he said, this movie has changed Hollywood's perception of what a blockbuster is. That makes it interesting for George Lucas, next up at your local megaplex. It's tough to explain, in the age of cable, gaming, the Net and the Web, just how central comics were for years to a culture of brainy, nerdy, alienated pre-Net teenage boys. Now, hostile jerks can flame people on the Net. Before, they could only read sci-fi books, build model planes and erector sets, but mostly, feast on comics and dream of becoming more powerful. In the 21st century, they can download, program and game, but in the 50s and 60s, comic books and rock-and-roll were prominent among the few accessible forms of popular culture for individualists with brain cells, a cheap, simple pleasure that cost a dime, then a quarter. How shockingly primitive when compared to the world of the computer nerd or hacker. Mainstream culture was dull, religiously appropriate and homogenized. Comic books and rock music were rebellious, subversive and naturally came under murderous fire from parents, teachers and politicians. Before, they could only read comics and fantasize about becoming more powerful. Elaborate ratings systems and restrictive codes eventually suffocated the comics' angry, biting spirit and made them as bland as network TV -- a cultural loss and free-speech outrage heading soon to a computer near you -- but not before Marvel and other comic creators cranked out some classic yarns, from Spider-Man and Batman to the X-Men and other superheroic tales. What makes these stories so popular and enduring? Perhaps because they all embody certain themes. There's the split-personality hero, usually a nerd who acquires great powers but at enormous cost, who always gets something and loses something. He gets to zip along past New York City skyscrapers, for instance, but we know he isn't likely to end up with the girl. Or, he lives in a mansion and drives a Batmobile, but he's depressed and lonely. Or he's a mutant wolverine with fingers of steel who can't ever have a casual beer with his pals. He cherishes his powers, but we know he can't ever be comfortable with his life. Robert Kane's early Batman: The Dark Knight was disturbingly dark and angry before the moralists turned comic books to bland mush. Few people remember that Kane ended his first Batman series with our hero giving up on life and essentially committing suicide by turning himself into the famed Arkham Asylum, where villains from the Joker to the Riddler were being held. Stories like Spider-Man and Batman also have a uniquely American and, until September 11, old-fashioned sense of civics. Spider-man's motto is "With great power comes great responsibility, " a bizarre notion even to hackers. Wouldn't that have seemed clunky before the terrorist attacks? Now it has a certain resonance. Batman's Bruce Wayne, along with the Superhero stars and any number Read the rest of this comment... [ Reply to This | Parent ] in case the comment gets slashdotted (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 10, @11:11AM (#3497304) Spider-Man shocked analysts and critics last week, racking up a record-breaking $114 million opening weekend for Sam Raimi's warm-hearted adaptation about the web-slinging arachnoid-nerd from Queens who gets the bad guy but really wants the girl. Spider-Man embodies the simplest, most elemental tenets of myth, especially when compared to the increasingly elephantine Skywalker saga, which seems more like a graduate program than a story each time there's a new movie. I'll bet Peter Parker's adventure surpasses the upcoming opening weekend of Attack of the Clones and teaches George Lucas something about the power and nature of myth. Like Star Wars, Spider-Man has the classic elements of a successful myth. A typically American story, it's less pretentious and hyped than Star Wars and more accessible to kids and die-hard comic book buffs, who remember the great, golden age of Marvel Comics. I'm one of them, I was there. The old form still has legs. One film analysts told the Wall Street Journal last week that with the success of Spider-Man, the blockbuster bar has been raised. In fact, he said, this movie has changed Hollywood's perception of what a blockbuster is. That makes it interesting for George Lucas, next up at your local megaplex. It's tough to explain, in the age of cable, gaming, the Net and the Web, just how central comics were for years to a culture of brainy, nerdy, alienated pre-Net teenage boys. Now, hostile jerks can flame people on the Net. Before, they could only read sci-fi books, build model planes and erector sets, but mostly, feast on comics and dream of becoming more powerful. In the 21st century, they can download, program and game, but in the 50s and 60s, comic books and rock-and-roll were prominent among the few accessible forms of popular culture for individualists with brain cells, a cheap, simple pleasure that cost a dime, then a quarter. How shockingly primitive when compared to the world of the computer nerd or hacker. Mainstream culture was dull, religiously appropriate and homogenized. Comic books and rock music were rebellious, subversive and naturally came under murderous fire from parents, teachers and politicians. Before, they could only read comics and fantasize about becoming more powerful. Elaborate ratings systems and restrictive codes eventually suffocated the comics' angry, biting spirit and made them as bland as network TV -- a cultural loss and free-speech outrage heading soon to a computer near you -- but not before Marvel and other comic creators cranked out some classic yarns, from Spider-Man and Batman to the X-Men and other superheroic tales. What makes these stories so popular and enduring? Perhaps because they all embody certain themes. There's the split-personality hero, usually a nerd who acquires great powers but at enormous cost, who always gets something and loses something. He gets to zip along past New York City skyscrapers, for instance, but we know he isn't likely to end up with the girl. Or, he lives in a mansion and drives a Batmobile, but he's depressed and lonely. Or he's a mutant wolverine with fingers of steel who can't ever have a casual beer with his pals. He cherishes his powers, but we know he can't ever be comfortable with his life. Robert Kane's early Batman: The Dark Knight was disturbingly dark and angry before the moralists turned comic books to bland mush. Few people remember that Kane ended his first Batman series with our hero giving up on life and essentially committing suicide by turning himself into the famed Arkham Asylum, where villains from the Joker to the Riddler were being held. Stories like Spider-Man and Batman also have a uniquely American and, until September 11, old-fashioned sense of civics. Spider-man's motto is "With great power comes great responsibility, " a bizarre notion even to hackers. Wouldn't that have seemed clunky before the terrorist attacks? Now it has a certain resonance. Batman's Bruce Wayne, along with the Superhero stars and any number Read the rest of this comment... [ Reply to This | Parent ] Re:in case the comment gets slashdotted (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 10, @11:17AM (#3497349) Spider-Man shocked analysts and critics last week, racking up a record-breaking $114 million opening weekend for Sam Raimi's warm-hearted adaptation about the web-slinging arachnoid-nerd from Queens who gets the bad guy but really wants the girl. Spider-Man embodies the simplest, most elemental tenets of myth, especially when compared to the increasingly elephantine Skywalker saga, which seems more like a graduate program than a story each time there's a new movie. I'll bet Peter Parker's adventure surpasses the upcoming opening weekend of Attack of the Clones and teaches George Lucas something about the power and nature of myth. Like Star Wars, Spider-Man has the classic elements of a successful myth. A typically American story, it's less pretentious and hyped than Star Wars and more accessible to kids and die-hard comic book buffs, who remember the great, golden age of Marvel Comics. I'm one of them, I was there. The old form still has legs. One film analysts told the Wall Street Journal last week that with the success of Spider-Man, the blockbuster bar has been raised. In fact, he said, this movie has changed Hollywood's perception of what a blockbuster is. That makes it interesting for George Lucas, next up at your local megaplex. It's tough to explain, in the age of cable, gaming, the Net and the Web, just how central comics were for years to a culture of brainy, nerdy, alienated pre-Net teenage boys. Now, hostile jerks can flame people on the Net. Before, they could only read sci-fi books, build model planes and erector sets, but mostly, feast on comics and dream of becoming more powerful. In the 21st century, they can download, program and game, but in the 50s and 60s, comic books and rock-and-roll were prominent among the few accessible forms of popular culture for individualists with brain cells, a cheap, simple pleasure that cost a dime, then a quarter. How shockingly primitive when compared to the world of the computer nerd or hacker. Mainstream culture was dull, religiously appropriate and homogenized. Comic books and rock music were rebellious, subversive and naturally came under murderous fire from parents, teachers and politicians. Before, they could only read comics and fantasize about becoming more powerful. Elaborate ratings systems and restrictive codes eventually suffocated the comics' angry, biting spirit and made them as bland as network TV -- a cultural loss and free-speech outrage heading soon to a computer near you -- but not before Marvel and other comic creators cranked out some classic yarns, from Spider-Man and Batman to the X-Men and other superheroic tales. What makes these stories so popular and enduring? Perhaps because they all embody certain themes. There's the split-personality hero, usually a nerd who acquires great powers but at enormous cost, who always gets something and loses something. He gets to zip along past New York City skyscrapers, for instance, but we know he isn't likely to end up with the girl. Or, he lives in a mansion and drives a Batmobile, but he's depressed and lonely. Or he's a mutant wolverine with fingers of steel who can't ever have a casual beer with his pals. He cherishes his powers, but we know he can't ever be comfortable with his life. Robert Kane's early Batman: The Dark Knight was disturbingly dark and angry before the moralists turned comic books to bland mush. Few people remember that Kane ended his first Batman series with our hero giving up on life and essentially committing suicide by turning himself into the famed Arkham Asylum, where villains from the Joker to the Riddler were being held. Stories like Spider-Man and Batman also have a uniquely American and, until September 11, old-fashioned sense of civics. Spider-man's motto is "With great power comes great responsibility, " a bizarre notion even to hackers. Wouldn't that have seemed clunky before the terrorist attacks? Now it has a certain resonance. Batman's Bruce Wayne, along with the Superhero stars and any number Read the rest of this comment... [ Reply to This | Parent Read the rest of this comment... [ Reply to This | Parent ] Re:in case the comment gets slashdotted (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 10, @11:19AM (#3497367) in case of slashdotting..... (Score:-1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 10, @11:05AM (#3497247) Spider-Man shocked analysts and critics last week, racking up a record-breaking $114 million opening weekend for Sam Raimi's warm-hearted adaptation about the web-slinging arachnoid-nerd from Queens who gets the bad guy but really wants the girl. Spider-Man embodies the simplest, most elemental tenets of myth, especially when compared to the increasingly elephantine Skywalker saga, which seems more like a graduate program than a story each time there's a new movie. I'll bet Peter Parker's adventure surpasses the upcoming opening weekend of Attack of the Clones and teaches George Lucas something about the power and nature of myth. Like Star Wars, Spider-Man has the classic elements of a successful myth. A typically American story, it's less pretentious and hyped than Star Wars and more accessible to kids and die-hard comic book buffs, who remember the great, golden age of Marvel Comics. I'm one of them, I was there. The old form still has legs. One film analysts told the Wall Street Journal last week that with the success of Spider-Man, the blockbuster bar has been raised. In fact, he said, this movie has changed Hollywood's perception of what a blockbuster is. That makes it interesting for George Lucas, next up at your local megaplex. It's tough to explain, in the age of cable, gaming, the Net and the Web, just how central comics were for years to a culture of brainy, nerdy, alienated pre-Net teenage boys. Now, hostile jerks can flame people on the Net. Before, they could only read sci-fi books, build model planes and erector sets, but mostly, feast on comics and dream of becoming more powerful. In the 21st century, they can download, program and game, but in the 50s and 60s, comic books and rock-and-roll were prominent among the few accessible forms of popular culture for individualists with brain cells, a cheap, simple pleasure that cost a dime, then a quarter. How shockingly primitive when compared to the world of the computer nerd or hacker. Mainstream culture was dull, religiously appropriate and homogenized. Comic books and rock music were rebellious, subversive and naturally came under murderous fire from parents, teachers and politicians. Before, they could only read comics and fantasize about becoming more powerful. Elaborate ratings systems and restrictive codes eventually suffocated the comics' angry, biting spirit and made them as bland as network TV -- a cultural loss and free-speech outrage heading soon to a computer near you -- but not before Marvel and other comic creators cranked out some classic yarns, from Spider-Man and Batman to the X-Men and other superheroic tales. What makes these stories so popular and enduring? Perhaps because they all embody certain themes. There's the split-personality hero, usually a nerd who acquires great powers but at enormous cost, who always gets something and loses something. He gets to zip along past New York City skyscrapers, for instance, but we know he isn't likely to end up with the girl. Or, he lives in a mansion and drives a Batmobile, but he's depressed and lonely. Or he's a mutant wolverine with fingers of steel who can't ever have a casual beer with his pals. He cherishes his powers, but we know he can't ever be comfortable with his life. Robert Kane's early Batman: The Dark Knight was disturbingly dark and angry before the moralists turned comic books to bland mush. Few people remember that Kane ended his first Batman series with our hero giving up on life and essentially committing suicide by turning himself into the famed Arkham Asylum, where villains from the Joker to the Riddler were being held. Stories like Spider-Man and Batman also have a uniquely American and, until September 11, old-fashioned sense of civics. Spider-man's motto is "With great power comes great responsibility, " a bizarre notion even to hackers. Wouldn't that have seemed clunky before the terrorist attacks? Now it has a certain resonance. Batman's Bruce W Read the rest of this comment... [ Reply to This | Parent ] Re:in case the comment gets slashdotted (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 10, @11:24AM (#3497407) case of slashdotting..... (Score:-1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 10, @11:05AM (#3497247) Spider-Man shocked analysts and critics last week, racking up a record-breaking $114 million opening weekend for Sam Raimi's warm-hearted adaptation about the web-slinging arachnoid-nerd from Queens who gets the bad guy but really wants the girl. Spider-Man embodies the simplest, most elemental tenets of myth, especially when compared to the increasingly elephantine Skywalker saga, which seems more like a graduate program than a story each time there's a new movie. I'll bet Peter Parker's adventure surpasses the upcoming opening weekend of Attack of the Clones and teaches George Lucas something about the power and nature of myth. Like Star Wars, Spider-Man has the classic elements of a successful myth. A typically American story, it's less pretentious and hyped than Star Wars and more accessible to kids and die-hard comic book buffs, who remember the great, golden age of Marvel Comics. I'm one of them, I was there. The old form still has legs. One film analysts told the Wall Street Journal last week that with the success of Spider-Man, the blockbuster bar has been raised. In fact, he said, this movie has changed Hollywood's perception of what a blockbuster is. That makes it interesting for George Lucas, next up at your local megaplex. It's tough to explain, in the age of cable, gaming, the Net and the Web, just how central comics were for years to a culture of brainy, nerdy, alienated pre-Net teenage boys. Now, hostile jerks can flame people on the Net. Before, they could only read sci-fi books, build model planes and erector sets, but mostly, feast on comics and dream of becoming more powerful. In the 21st century, they can download, program and game, but in the 50s and 60s, comic books and rock-and-roll were prominent among the few accessible forms of popular culture for individualists with brain cells, a cheap, simple pleasure that cost a dime, then a quarter. How shockingly primitive when compared to the world of the computer nerd or hacker. Mainstream culture was dull, religiously appropriate and homogenized. Comic books and rock music were rebellious, subversive and naturally came under murderous fire from parents, teachers and politicians. Before, they could only read comics and fantasize about becoming more powerful. Elaborate ratings systems and restrictive codes eventually suffocated the comics' angry, biting spirit and made them as bland as network TV -- a cultural loss and free-speech outrage heading soon to a computer near you -- but not before Marvel and other comic creators cranked out some classic yarns, from Spider-Man and Batman to the X-Men and other superheroic tales. What makes these stories so popular and enduring? Perhaps because they all embody certain themes. There's the split-personality hero, usually a nerd who acquires great powers but at enormous cost, who always gets something and loses something. He gets to zip along past New York City skyscrapers, for instance, but we know he isn't likely to end up with the girl. Or, he lives in a mansion and drives a Batmobile, but he's depressed and lonely. Or he's a mutant wolverine with fingers of steel who can't ever have a casual beer with his pals. He cherishes his powers, but we know he can't ever be comfortable with his life. Robert Kane's early Batman: The Dark Knight was disturbingly dark and angry before the moralists turned comic books to bland mush. Few people remember that Kane ended his first Batman series with our hero giving up on life and essentially committing suicide by turning himself into the famed Arkham Asylum, where villains from the Joker to the Riddler were being held. Stories like Spider-Man and Batman also have a uniquely American and, until September 11, old-fashioned sense of civics. Spider-man's motto is "With great power comes great responsibility, " a bizarre notion even to hackers. Wouldn't that have seemed clunky before the terrorist attacks? Now it has a certain resonance. Batman's Bruce Way Read the rest of this comment... [ Reply to This | Parent ]
Nice writing. Very articulate. The Skywalker brothers was probably meant in a figurative sense. Anyway, I thought George Lucas consulted with Joseph Campbell concerning the Star Wars storyline. Both Spiderman and Star Wars have elements that reach a lot of people, no matter how much money was spent in advertising. If it was crap, the advertising wouldn't have helped it. But the basic elements of the hero story reach us, as each of us has a some desire to do the impossible, feel important, make an impact. These are universal human traits, and we're all suckers for it. But it's all good at the same time.
When a thing has been said and well, have no scruple. Take it and copy it. Anatole France (1844 - 1924)
This site puts Spiderman's birth year at 1977.
The hooligans are loose! The hooligans are loose! What if they become ruffians? -- Bill Hicks
Check out some of the works of CS Lewis for some amazing insight on myth. He understood how myth fits into reality better than anyone else I've ever heard. I can't find any direct references right now, but he has a number of essays on the topic.
Science may someday discover what faith has always known.
the web-slinging arachnoid-nerd from Queens
I thought Spiderman lived in Chelsea. Please correct me if I am wrong. My whole world is warped.
I was thinking of how to intentionally fail my drug test... It would make a good memoir story someday.
I doubt it will come close.
s /b aldassarre0510.html
http://entertainment.sympatico.ca/movies/review
Not to burst your bubble, but I sense more anticipation towards Scooby Doo than ATOTC. TPM simply turned off too many people.
about the power of writing without hyperbole, cant, or sophomoric pretensions of grandeur.
I think this is public knowledge, but some people may consider it a spoiler.
Luke refers to the Lars as "Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru"? His uncle would be his father's brother.
Owen Lars = Anakin Skywalker's brother... there are many variations on brother (half/step/etc.)
Greetings to my American friend John Katz and my fellow slashdot posters. I am grateful for review of Spiderman movie because stray missile blew up my camels I was to trade for tickets. Meanwhile I download AOTC on my trusty C-64. Maybe then I understand secret of Skywalker brothers. Sorry for sloppy post but I drink much beer now that Taliban gone. I love you my American friend Jon Katz!!!
-Junis from KabulReally, this movie is just the latest myth of the kind summarized by Joseph Campbell in his Hero with a Thousand Faces (Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0691017840/ ref=nosim/mythopoeicsociet/002-7808721-0644001)
The young rebel/outcast, the call to adventure,
the denial, the mentor, the token, etc.
It's all there.
The reason I went to see spiderman was for fun. And recalling my childhood days vegetating in front of the tube watching spiderman & speed racer after school, nothing more. I didn't look for anything deep in it then, why should I start now? Jon, tying in 911 is really far fetched, you neeed to get out more.
Now if only Bill Gates, Scott McNealy, and Larry Ellison would own up to their civic duty. It is interesting how our "American" lore has the very wealthy doing very positive things for our nation; building libraries, etc. Now it only seems that the enormously wealthy have only one goal ... more wealth, at the expense of being truthful, civil, or even human. Like a bunch of competing boys on the playground, after being turned down by a good woman resorting to measuring penus size.
They're all just movies. If one makes more than the other does that make it a better or worse movie? No. Movies are art, movies are subjective. So please shut your goddamn fucking trap, Katz. You have NO integrity.
After 9/11 and the following war, the
conclusion is that after all, the Empire
was right and Darth Vador was the good guy !
A rational, non-religious, technological
military superpower trying to embrace the
Universe, and some fanatics believing
to some bullshit religion trying to
fight them with inferior means, hidden
in some remote location...
Maybe the morale of SW is entirely anti-American,
and true patriots go to see Spidey instead.
(even if he could have put some web around
certain towers in his native city, but
even superheroes have weaknesses).
Google passes Turing test : see my journal
He's a leftist political advocate who gets people to listen to him based on his prior academic career. He's nothing but your typical leftist schmoe who complains about the state of the world but does nothing about it.
The below post was Necromancer's, but it is extremely important to point out this illegal act of Katz's:
/. earlier today.
I couldn't help but notice that Mr. Katz is not using his original thoughts, but plagirizing from an article posted here on
Mr. Katz's quote:
most elemental tenets of myth, especially when compared to the increasingly elephantine Skywalker saga,
Quote from NY Times article, posted here [nytimes.com]:
and perhaps inwardly suspecting that the whole elephantine system is rotten.
Geez, stop stealing others' stuff and get an original thought, will ya?
Attention all planets of the Solar Federation! We have assumed control! - Neil Peart
"This [Canadian] beer sucks!"
*crowd goes silent*
Why bother.
Considering your built your quasi-career out of being a nerdy, alienated teenage boy, its startling how little you know about the comics you're writing about. 40 years of spiderman comics are quite a bit deeper than ~8 hours of pulp sci-fi.
I can give many examples, but hey, you haven't known what the hell you're talking about before, why try to correct you now? Just compare screenplays and start babbling.
Oh, and Jon, you're not going to get bit by a radioactive spider, and you're not going to test positive for midocholrians. The high school bullies will always be able to kick your ass, and you'll always be powerless to stop them. Sleep tight.
He repetidly make the clasic error of assuming that identification of a problem is the same as fixing it
Chomsky's ideas on how to fix it have always been there: stop the lies and duplicity in the government, hold yourself to the same standards you hold everyone else to, and never never never suspect for one meager moment that you will get away with your crimes. It is strange to see mention on Chomsky's name on a posting about pop culture and movies, but Chomsky definitely deserves a place in theYeah, this pretty much was a rant, but thought some of this b.s. should have been labelled as such.....
...we are from the government - we are here to help...
in case of slashdotting..... (Score:-1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 10, @12:05PM (#3497247) Spider-Man shocked analysts and critics last week, racking up a record-breaking $114 million opening weekend for Sam Raimi's warm-hearted adaptation about the web-slinging arachnoid-nerd from Queens who gets the bad guy but really wants the girl. Spider-Man embodies the simplest, most elemental tenets of myth, especially when compared to the increasingly elephantine Skywalker saga, which seems more like a graduate program than a story each time there's a new movie. I'll bet Peter Parker's adventure surpasses the upcoming opening weekend of Attack of the Clones and teaches George Lucas something about the power and nature of myth. Like Star Wars, Spider-Man has the classic elements of a successful myth. A typically American story, it's less pretentious and hyped than Star Wars and more accessible to kids and die-hard comic book buffs, who remember the great, golden age of Marvel Comics. I'm one of them, I was there. The old form still has legs. One film analysts told the Wall Street Journal last week that with the success of Spider-Man, the blockbuster bar has been raised. In fact, he said, this movie has changed Hollywood's perception of what a blockbuster is. That makes it interesting for George Lucas, next up at your local megaplex. It's tough to explain, in the age of cable, gaming, the Net and the Web, just how central comics were for years to a culture of brainy, nerdy, alienated pre-Net teenage boys. Now, hostile jerks can flame people on the Net. Before, they could only read sci-fi books, build model planes and erector sets, but mostly, feast on comics and dream of becoming more powerful. In the 21st century, they can download, program and game, but in the 50s and 60s, comic books and rock-and-roll were prominent among the few accessible forms of popular culture for individualists with brain cells, a cheap, simple pleasure that cost a dime, then a quarter. How shockingly primitive when compared to the world of the computer nerd or hacker. Mainstream culture was dull, religiously appropriate and homogenized. Comic books and rock music were rebellious, subversive and naturally came under murderous fire from parents, teachers and politicians. Before, they could only read comics and fantasize about becoming more powerful. Elaborate ratings systems and restrictive codes eventually suffocated the comics' angry, biting spirit and made them as bland as network TV -- a cultural loss and free-speech outrage heading soon to a computer near you -- but not before Marvel and other comic creators cranked out some classic yarns, from Spider-Man and Batman to the X-Men and other superheroic tales. What makes these stories so popular and enduring? Perhaps because they all embody certain themes. There's the split-personality hero, usually a nerd who acquires great powers but at enormous cost, who always gets something and loses something. He gets to zip along past New York City skyscrapers, for instance, but we know he isn't likely to end up with the girl. Or, he lives in a mansion and drives a Batmobile, but he's depressed and lonely. Or he's a mutant wolverine with fingers of steel who can't ever have a casual beer with his pals. He cherishes his powers, but we know he can't ever be comfortable with his life. Robert Kane's early Batman: The Dark Knight was disturbingly dark and angry before the moralists turned comic books to bland mush. Few people remember that Kane ended his first Batman series with our hero giving up on life and essentially committing suicide by turning himself into the famed Arkham Asylum, where villains from the Joker to the Riddler were being held. Stories like Spider-Man and Batman also have a uniquely American and, until September 11, old-fashioned sense of civics. Spider-man's motto is "With great power comes great responsibility, " a bizarre notion even to hackers. Wouldn't that have seemed clunky before the terrorist attacks? Now it has a certain resonance. Batman's Bruce Wayne, along with the Superhero stars and any number Read the rest of this comment... [ Reply to This | Parent ] in case the comment gets slashdotted (Score:-1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 10, @12:11PM (#3497304) Spider-Man shocked analysts and critics last week, racking up a record-breaking $114 million opening weekend for Sam Raimi's warm-hearted adaptation about the web-slinging arachnoid-nerd from Queens who gets the bad guy but really wants the girl. Spider-Man embodies the simplest, most elemental tenets of myth, especially when compared to the increasingly elephantine Skywalker saga, which seems more like a graduate program than a story each time there's a new movie. I'll bet Peter Parker's adventure surpasses the upcoming opening weekend of Attack of the Clones and teaches George Lucas something about the power and nature of myth. Like Star Wars, Spider-Man has the classic elements of a successful myth. A typically American story, it's less pretentious and hyped than Star Wars and more accessible to kids and die-hard comic book buffs, who remember the great, golden age of Marvel Comics. I'm one of them, I was there. The old form still has legs. One film analysts told the Wall Street Journal last week that with the success of Spider-Man, the blockbuster bar has been raised. In fact, he said, this movie has changed Hollywood's perception of what a blockbuster is. That makes it interesting for George Lucas, next up at your local megaplex. It's tough to explain, in the age of cable, gaming, the Net and the Web, just how central comics were for years to a culture of brainy, nerdy, alienated pre-Net teenage boys. Now, hostile jerks can flame people on the Net. Before, they could only read sci-fi books, build model planes and erector sets, but mostly, feast on comics and dream of becoming more powerful. In the 21st century, they can download, program and game, but in the 50s and 60s, comic books and rock-and-roll were prominent among the few accessible forms of popular culture for individualists with brain cells, a cheap, simple pleasure that cost a dime, then a quarter. How shockingly primitive when compared to the world of the computer nerd or hacker. Mainstream culture was dull, religiously appropriate and homogenized. Comic books and rock music were rebellious, subversive and naturally came under murderous fire from parents, teachers and politicians. Before, they could only read comics and fantasize about becoming more powerful. Elaborate ratings systems and restrictive codes eventually suffocated the comics' angry, biting spirit and made them as bland as network TV -- a cultural loss and free-speech outrage heading soon to a computer near you -- but not before Marvel and other comic creators cranked out some classic yarns, from Spider-Man and Batman to the X-Men and other superheroic tales. What makes these stories so popular and enduring? Perhaps because they all embody certain themes. There's the split-personality hero, usually a nerd who acquires great powers but at enormous cost, who always gets something and loses something. He gets to zip along past New York City skyscrapers, for instance, but we know he isn't likely to end up with the girl. Or, he lives in a mansion and drives a Batmobile, but he's depressed and lonely. Or he's a mutant wolverine with fingers of steel who can't ever have a casual beer with his pals. He cherishes his powers, but we know he can't ever be comfortable with his life. Robert Kane's early Batman: The Dark Knight was disturbingly dark and angry before the moralists turned comic books to bland mush. Few people remember that Kane ended his first Batman series with our hero giving up on life and essentially committing suicide by turning himself into the famed Arkham Asylum, where villains from the Joker to the Riddler were being held. Stories like Spider-Man and Batman also have a uniquely American and, until September 11, old-fashioned sense of civics. Spider-man's motto is "With great power comes great responsibility, " a bizarre notion even to hackers. Wouldn't that have seemed clunky before the terrorist attacks? Now it has a certain resonance. Batman's Bruce Wayne, along with the Superhero stars and any number Read the rest of this comment... [ Reply to This | Parent ] Re:in case the comment gets slashdotted (Score:-1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 10, @12:17PM (#3497349) Spider-Man shocked analysts and critics last week, racking up a record-breaking $114 million opening weekend for Sam Raimi's warm-hearted adaptation about the web-slinging arachnoid-nerd from Queens who gets the bad guy but really wants the girl. Spider-Man embodies the simplest, most elemental tenets of myth, especially when compared to the increasingly elephantine Skywalker saga, which seems more like a graduate program than a story each time there's a new movie. I'll bet Peter Parker's adventure surpasses the upcoming opening weekend of Attack of the Clones and teaches George Lucas something about the power and nature of myth. Like Star Wars, Spider-Man has the classic elements of a successful myth. A typically American story, it's less pretentious and hyped than Star Wars and more accessible to kids and die-hard comic book buffs, who remember the great, golden age of Marvel Comics. I'm one of them, I was there. The old form still has legs. One film analysts told the Wall Street Journal last week that with the success of Spider-Man, the blockbuster bar has been raised. In fact, he said, this movie has changed Hollywood's perception of what a blockbuster is. That makes it interesting for George Lucas, next up at your local megaplex. It's tough to explain, in the age of cable, gaming, the Net and the Web, just how central comics were for years to a culture of brainy, nerdy, alienated pre-Net teenage boys. Now, hostile jerks can flame people on the Net. Before, they could only read sci-fi books, build model planes and erector sets, but mostly, feast on comics and dream of becoming more powerful. In the 21st century, they can download, program and game, but in the 50s and 60s, comic books and rock-and-roll were prominent among the few accessible forms of popular culture for individualists with brain cells, a cheap, simple pleasure that cost a dime, then a quarter. How shockingly primitive when compared to the world of the computer nerd or hacker. Mainstream culture was dull, religiously appropriate and homogenized. Comic books and rock music were rebellious, subversive and naturally came under murderous fire from parents, teachers and politicians. Before, they could only read comics and fantasize about becoming more powerful. Elaborate ratings systems and restrictive codes eventually suffocated the comics' angry, biting spirit and made them as bland as network TV -- a cultural loss and free-speech outrage heading soon to a computer near you -- but not before Marvel and other comic creators cranked out some classic yarns, from Spider-Man and Batman to the X-Men and other superheroic tales. What makes these stories so popular and enduring? Perhaps because they all embody certain themes. There's the split-personality hero, usually a nerd who acquires great powers but at enormous cost, who always gets something and loses something. He gets to zip along past New York City skyscrapers, for instance, but we know he isn't likely to end up with the girl. Or, he lives in a mansion and drives a Batmobile, but he's depressed and lonely. Or he's a mutant wolverine with fingers of steel who can't ever have a casual beer with his pals. He cherishes his powers, but we know he can't ever be comfortable with his life. Robert Kane's early Batman: The Dark Knight was disturbingly dark and angry before the moralists turned comic books to bland mush. Few people remember that Kane ended his first Batman series with our hero giving up on life and essentially committing suicide by turning himself into the famed Arkham Asylum, where villains from the Joker to the Riddler were being held. Stories like Spider-Man and Batman also have a uniquely American and, until September 11, old-fashioned sense of civics. Spider-man's motto is "With great power comes great responsibility, " a bizarre notion even to hackers. Wouldn't that have seemed clunky before the terrorist attacks? Now it has a certain resonance. Batman's Bruce Wayne, along with the Superhero stars and any number Read the rest of this comment... [ Reply to This | Parent Read the rest of this comment... [ Reply to This | Parent ] Re:in case the comment gets slashdotted (Score:-1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 10, @12:19PM (#3497367) in case of slashdotting..... (Score:-1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 10, @11:05AM (#3497247) Spider-Man shocked analysts and critics last week, racking up a record-breaking $114 million opening weekend for Sam Raimi's warm-hearted adaptation about the web-slinging arachnoid-nerd from Queens who gets the bad guy but really wants the girl. Spider-Man embodies the simplest, most elemental tenets of myth, especially when compared to the increasingly elephantine Skywalker saga, which seems more like a graduate program than a story each time there's a new movie. I'll bet Peter Parker's adventure surpasses the upcoming opening weekend of Attack of the Clones and teaches George Lucas something about the power and nature of myth. Like Star Wars, Spider-Man has the classic elements of a successful myth. A typically American story, it's less pretentious and hyped than Star Wars and more accessible to kids and die-hard comic book buffs, who remember the great, golden age of Marvel Comics. I'm one of them, I was there. The old form still has legs. One film analysts told the Wall Street Journal last week that with the success of Spider-Man, the blockbuster bar has been raised. In fact, he said, this movie has changed Hollywood's perception of what a blockbuster is. That makes it interesting for George Lucas, next up at your local megaplex. It's tough to explain, in the age of cable, gaming, the Net and the Web, just how central comics were for years to a culture of brainy, nerdy, alienated pre-Net teenage boys. Now, hostile jerks can flame people on the Net. Before, they could only read sci-fi books, build model planes and erector sets, but mostly, feast on comics and dream of becoming more powerful. In the 21st century, they can download, program and game, but in the 50s and 60s, comic books and rock-and-roll were prominent among the few accessible forms of popular culture for individualists with brain cells, a cheap, simple pleasure that cost a dime, then a quarter. How shockingly primitive when compared to the world of the computer nerd or hacker. Mainstream culture was dull, religiously appropriate and homogenized. Comic books and rock music were rebellious, subversive and naturally came under murderous fire from parents, teachers and politicians. Before, they could only read comics and fantasize about becoming more powerful. Elaborate ratings systems and restrictive codes eventually suffocated the comics' angry, biting spirit and made them as bland as network TV -- a cultural loss and free-speech outrage heading soon to a computer near you -- but not before Marvel and other comic creators cranked out some classic yarns, from Spider-Man and Batman to the X-Men and other superheroic tales. What makes these stories so popular and enduring? Perhaps because they all embody certain themes. There's the split-personality hero, usually a nerd who acquires great powers but at enormous cost, who always gets something and loses something. He gets to zip along past New York City skyscrapers, for instance, but we know he isn't likely to end up with the girl. Or, he lives in a mansion and drives a Batmobile, but he's depressed and lonely. Or he's a mutant wolverine with fingers of steel who can't ever have a casual beer with his pals. He cherishes his powers, but we know he can't ever be comfortable with his life. Robert Kane's early Batman: The Dark Knight was disturbingly dark and angry before the moralists turned comic books to bland mush. Few people remember that Kane ended his first Batman series with our hero giving up on life and essentially committing suicide by turning himself into the famed Arkham Asylum, where villains from the Joker to the Riddler were being held. Stories like Spider-Man and Batman also have a uniquely American and, until September 11, old-fashioned sense of civics. Spider-man's motto is "With great power comes great responsibility, " a bizarre notion even to hackers. Wouldn't that have seemed clunky before the terrorist attacks? Now it has a certain resonance. Batman's Bruce W Read the rest of this comment... [ Reply to This | Parent ] Re:in case the comment gets slashdotted (Score:-1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 10, @12:24PM (#3497407) case of slashdotting..... (Score:-1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 10, @11:05AM (#3497247) Spider-Man shocked analysts and critics last week, racking up a record-breaking $114 million opening weekend for Sam Raimi's warm-hearted adaptation about the web-slinging arachnoid-nerd from Queens who gets the bad guy but really wants the girl. Spider-Man embodies the simplest, most elemental tenets of myth, especially when compared to the increasingly elephantine Skywalker saga, which seems more like a graduate program than a story each time there's a new movie. I'll bet Peter Parker's adventure surpasses the upcoming opening weekend of Attack of the Clones and teaches George Lucas something about the power and nature of myth. Like Star Wars, Spider-Man has the classic elements of a successful myth. A typically American story, it's less pretentious and hyped than Star Wars and more accessible to kids and die-hard comic book buffs, who remember the great, golden age of Marvel Comics. I'm one of them, I was there. The old form still has legs. One film analysts told the Wall Street Journal last week that with the success of Spider-Man, the blockbuster bar has been raised. In fact, he said, this movie has changed Hollywood's perception of what a blockbuster is. That makes it interesting for George Lucas, next up at your local megaplex. It's tough to explain, in the age of cable, gaming, the Net and the Web, just how central comics were for years to a culture of brainy, nerdy, alienated pre-Net teenage boys. Now, hostile jerks can flame people on the Net. Before, they could only read sci-fi books, build model planes and erector sets, but mostly, feast on comics and dream of becoming more powerful. In the 21st century, they can download, program and game, but in the 50s and 60s, comic books and rock-and-roll were prominent among the few accessible forms of popular culture for individualists with brain cells, a cheap, simple pleasure that cost a dime, then a quarter. How shockingly primitive when compared to the world of the computer nerd or hacker. Mainstream culture was dull, religiously appropriate and homogenized. Comic books and rock music were rebellious, subversive and naturally came under murderous fire from parents, teachers and politicians. Before, they could only read comics and fantasize about becoming more powerful. Elaborate ratings systems and restrictive codes eventually suffocated the comics' angry, biting spirit and made them as bland as network TV -- a cultural loss and free-speech outrage heading soon to a computer near you -- but not before Marvel and other comic creators cranked out some classic yarns, from Spider-Man and Batman to the X-Men and other superheroic tales. What makes these stories so popular and enduring? Perhaps because they all embody certain themes. There's the split-personality hero, usually a nerd who acquires great powers but at enormous cost, who always gets something and loses something. He gets to zip along past New York City skyscrapers, for instance, but we know he isn't likely to end up with the girl. Or, he lives in a mansion and drives a Batmobile, but he's depressed and lonely. Or he's a mutant wolverine with fingers of steel who can't ever have a casual beer with his pals. He cherishes his powers, but we know he can't ever be comfortable with his life. Robert Kane's early Batman: The Dark Knight was disturbingly dark and angry before the moralists turned comic books to bland mush. Few people remember that Kane ended his first Batman series with our hero giving up on life and essentially committing suicide by turning himself into the famed Arkham Asylum, where villains from the Joker to the Riddler were being held. Stories like Spider-Man and Batman also have a uniquely American and, until September 11, old-fashioned sense of civics. Spider-man's motto is "With great power comes great responsibility, " a bizarre notion even to hackers. Wouldn't that have seemed clunky before the terrorist attacks? Now it has a certain resonance. Batman's Bruce Way Read the rest of this comment... [ Reply to This | Parent ] Re:in case the comment gets slashdotted (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 10, @12:32PM (#3497467) in case of slashdotting..... (Score:-1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 10, @11:05AM (#3497247) Spider-Man shocked analysts and critics last week, racking up a record-breaking $114 million opening weekend for Sam Raimi's warm-hearted adaptation about the web-slinging arachnoid-nerd from Queens who gets the bad guy but really wants the girl. Spider-Man embodies the simplest, most elemental tenets of myth, especially when compared to the increasingly elephantine Skywalker saga, which seems more like a graduate program than a story each time there's a new movie. I'll bet Peter Parker's adventure surpasses the upcoming opening weekend of Attack of the Clones and teaches George Lucas something about the power and nature of myth. Like Star Wars, Spider-Man has the classic elements of a successful myth. A typically American story, it's less pretentious and hyped than Star Wars and more accessible to kids and die-hard comic book buffs, who remember the great, golden age of Marvel Comics. I'm one of them, I was there. The old form still has legs. One film analysts told the Wall Street Journal last week that with the success of Spider-Man, the blockbuster bar has been raised. In fact, he said, this movie has changed Hollywood's perception of what a blockbuster is. That makes it interesting for George Lucas, next up at your local megaplex. It's tough to explain, in the age of cable, gaming, the Net and the Web, just how central comics were for years to a culture of brainy, nerdy, alienated pre-Net teenage boys. Now, hostile jerks can flame people on the Net. Before, they could only read sci-fi books, build model planes and erector sets, but mostly, feast on comics and dream of becoming more powerful. In the 21st century, they can download, program and game, but in the 50s and 60s, comic books and rock-and-roll were prominent among the few accessible forms of popular culture for individualists with brain cells, a cheap, simple pleasure that cost a dime, then a quarter. How shockingly primitive when compared to the world of the computer nerd or hacker. Mainstream culture was dull, religiously appropriate and homogenized. Comic books and rock music were rebellious, subversive and naturally came under murderous fire from parents, teachers and politicians. Before, they could only read comics and fantasize about becoming more powerful. Elaborate ratings systems and restrictive codes eventually suffocated the comics' angry, biting spirit and made them as bland as network TV -- a cultural loss and free-speech outrage heading soon to a computer near you -- but not before Marvel and other comic creators cranked out some classic yarns, from Spider-Man and Batman to the X-Men and other superheroic tales. What makes these stories so popular and enduring? Perhaps because they all embody certain themes. There's the split-personality hero, usually a nerd who acquires great powers but at enormous cost, who always gets something and loses something. He gets to zip along past New York City skyscrapers, for instance, but we know he isn't likely to end up with the girl. Or, he lives in a mansion and drives a Batmobile, but he's depressed and lonely. Or he's a mutant wolverine with fingers of steel who can't ever have a casual beer with his pals. He cherishes his powers, but we know he can't ever be comfortable with his life. Robert Kane's early Batman: The Dark Knight was disturbingly dark and angry before the moralists turned comic books to bland mush. Few people remember that Kane ended his first Batman series with our hero giving up on life and essentially committing suicide by turning himself into the famed Arkham Asylum, where villains from the Joker to the Riddler were being held. Stories like Spider-Man and Batman also have a uniquely American and, until September 11, old-fashioned sense of civics. Spider-man's motto is "With great power comes great responsibility, " a bizarre notion even to hackers. Wouldn't that have seemed clunky before the terrorist attacks? Now it has a certain resonance. Batman's Bruc Read the rest of this comment... [ Reply to This | Parent ] Re:in case the comment gets slashdotted (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 10, @12:43PM (#3497544) in case of slashdotting..... (Score:-1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 10, @11:05AM (#3497247) Spider-Man shocked analysts and critics last week, racking up a record-breaking $114 million opening weekend for Sam Raimi's warm-hearted adaptation about the web-slinging arachnoid-nerd from Queens who gets the bad guy but really wants the girl. Spider-Man embodies the simplest, most elemental tenets of myth, especially when compared to the increasingly elephantine Skywalker saga, which seems more like a graduate program than a story each time there's a new movie. I'll bet Peter Parker's adventure surpasses the upcoming opening weekend of Attack of the Clones and teaches George Lucas something about the power and nature of myth. Like Star Wars, Spider-Man has the classic elements of a successful myth. A typically American story, it's less pretentious and hyped than Star Wars and more accessible to kids and die-hard comic book buffs, who remember the great, golden age of Marvel Comics. I'm one of them, I was there. The old form still has legs. One film analysts told the Wall Street Journal last week that with the success of Spider-Man, the blockbuster bar has been raised. In fact, he said, this movie has changed Hollywood's perception of what a blockbuster is. That makes it interesting for George Lucas, next up at your local megaplex. It's tough to explain, in the age of cable, gaming, the Net and the Web, just how central comics were for years to a culture of brainy, nerdy, alienated pre-Net teenage boys. Now, hostile jerks can flame people on the Net. Before, they could only read sci-fi books, build model planes and erector sets, but mostly, feast on comics and dream of becoming more powerful. In the 21st century, they can download, program and game, but in the 50s and 60s, comic books and rock-and-roll were prominent among the few accessible forms of popular culture for individualists with brain cells, a cheap, simple pleasure that cost a dime, then a quarter. How shockingly primitive when compared to the world of the computer nerd or hacker. Mainstream culture was dull, religiously appropriate and homogenized. Comic books and rock music were rebellious, subversive and naturally came under murderous fire from parents, teachers and politicians. Before, they could only read comics and fantasize about becoming more powerful. Elaborate ratings systems and restrictive codes eventually suffocated the comics' angry, biting spirit and made them as bland as network TV -- a cultural loss and free-speech outrage heading soon to a computer near you -- but not before Marvel and other comic creators cranked out some classic yarns, from Spider-Man and Batman to the X-Men and other superheroic tales. What makes these stories so popular and enduring? Perhaps because they all embody certain themes. There's the split-personality hero, usually a nerd who acquires great powers but at enormous cost, who always gets something and loses something. He gets to zip along past New York City skyscrapers, for instance, but we know he isn't likely to end up with the girl. Or, he lives in a mansion and drives a Batmobile, but he's depressed and lonely. Or he's a mutant wolverine with fingers of steel who can't ever have a casual beer with his pals. He cherishes his powers, but we know he can't ever be comfortable with his life. Robert Kane's early Batman: The Dark Knight was disturbingly dark and angry before the moralists turned comic books to bland mush. Few people remember that Kane ended his first Batman series with our hero giving up on life and essentially committing suicide by turning himself into the famed Arkham Asylum, where villains from the Joker to the Riddler were being held. Stories like Spider-Man and Batman also have a uniquely American and, until September 11, old-fashioned sense of civics. Spider-man's motto is "With great power comes great responsibility, " a bizarre notion even to hackers. Wouldn't that have seemed clunky before the terrorist attacks? Now it has a certain resonance. Batman's Bruce Wayne, along with Read the rest of this comment... [ Reply to This | Parent ] Re:in case the comment gets slashdotted (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 10, @12:46PM (#3497564) in case of slashdotting..... (Score:-1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 10, @11:05AM (#3497247) Spider-Man shocked analysts and critics last week, racking up a record-breaking $114 million opening weekend for Sam Raimi's warm-hearted adaptation about the web-slinging arachnoid-nerd from Queens who gets the bad guy but really wants the girl. Spider-Man embodies the simplest, most elemental tenets of myth, especially when compared to the increasingly elephantine Skywalker saga, which seems more like a graduate program than a story each time there's a new movie. I'll bet Peter Parker's adventure surpasses the upcoming opening weekend of Attack of the Clones and teaches George Lucas something about the power and nature of myth. Like Star Wars, Spider-Man has the classic elements of a successful myth. A typically American story, it's less pretentious and hyped than Star Wars and more accessible to kids and die-hard comic book buffs, who remember the great, golden age of Marvel Comics. I'm one of them, I was there. The old form still has legs. One film analysts told the Wall Street Journal last week that with the success of Spider-Man, the blockbuster bar has been raised. In fact, he said, this movie has changed Hollywood's perception of what a blockbuster is. That makes it interesting for George Lucas, next up at your local megaplex. It's tough to explain, in the age of cable, gaming, the Net and the Web, just how central comics were for years to a culture of brainy, nerdy, alienated pre-Net teenage boys. Now, hostile jerks can flame people on the Net. Before, they could only read sci-fi books, build model planes and erector sets, but mostly, feast on comics and dream of becoming more powerful. In the 21st century, they can download, program and game, but in the 50s and 60s, comic books and rock-and-roll were prominent among the few accessible forms of popular culture for individualists with brain cells, a cheap, simple pleasure that cost a dime, then a quarter. How shockingly primitive when compared to the world of the computer nerd or hacker. Mainstream culture was dull, religiously appropriate and homogenized. Comic books and rock music were rebellious, subversive and naturally came under murderous fire from parents, teachers and politicians. Before, they could only read comics and fantasize about becoming more powerful. Elaborate ratings systems and restrictive codes eventually suffocated the comics' angry, biting spirit and made them as bland as network TV -- a cultural loss and free-speech outrage heading soon to a computer near you -- but not before Marvel and other comic creators cranked out some classic yarns, from Spider-Man and Batman to the X-Men and other superheroic tales. What makes these stories so popular and enduring? Perhaps because they all embody certain themes. There's the split-personality hero, usually a nerd who acquires great powers but at enormous cost, who always gets something and loses something. He gets to zip along past New York City skyscrapers, for instance, but we know he isn't likely to end up with the girl. Or, he lives in a mansion and drives a Batmobile, but he's depressed and lonely. Or he's a mutant wolverine with fingers of steel who can't ever have a casual beer with his pals. He cherishes his powers, but we know he can't ever be comfortable with his life. Robert Kane's early Batman: The Dark Knight was disturbingly dark and angry before the moralists turned comic books to bland mush. Few people remember that Kane ended his first Batman series with our hero giving up on life and essentially committing suicide by turning himself into the famed Arkham Asylum, where villains from the Joker to the Riddler were being held. Stories like Spider-Man and Batman also have a uniquely American and, until September 11, old-fashioned sense of civics. Spider-man's motto is "With great power comes great responsibility, " a bizarre notion even to hackers. Wouldn't that have seemed clunky before the terrorist attacks? Now it has a certain resonance. [goatse.cx] Read the rest of this comment... [ Reply to This | Parent ] Re:in case the comment gets slashdotted (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 10, @12:46PM (#3497565) Re:in case the comment gets slashdotted (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 10, @12:43PM (#3497544) in case of slashdotting..... (Score:-1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 10, @11:05AM (#3497247) Spider-Man shocked analysts and critics last week, racking up a record-breaking $114 million opening weekend for Sam Raimi's warm-hearted adaptation about the web-slinging arachnoid-nerd from Queens who gets the bad guy but really wants the girl. Spider-Man embodies the simplest, most elemental tenets of myth, especially when compared to the increasingly elephantine Skywalker saga, which seems more like a graduate program than a story each time there's a new movie. I'll bet Peter Parker's adventure surpasses the upcoming opening weekend of Attack of the Clones and teaches George Lucas something about the power and nature of myth. Like Star Wars, Spider-Man has the classic elements of a successful myth. A typically American story, it's less pretentious and hyped than Star Wars and more accessible to kids and die-hard comic book buffs, who remember the great, golden age of Marvel Comics. I'm one of them, I was there. The old form still has legs. One film analysts told the Wall Street Journal last week that with the success of Spider-Man, the blockbuster bar has been raised. In fact, he said, this movie has changed Hollywood's perception of what a blockbuster is. That makes it interesting for George Lucas, next up at your local megaplex. It's tough to explain, in the age of cable, gaming, the Net and the Web, just how central comics were for years to a culture of brainy, nerdy, alienated pre-Net teenage boys. Now, hostile jerks can flame people on the Net. Before, they could only read sci-fi books, build model planes and erector sets, but mostly, feast on comics and dream of becoming more powerful. In the 21st century, they can download, program and game, but in the 50s and 60s, comic books and rock-and-roll were prominent among the few accessible forms of popular culture for individualists with brain cells, a cheap, simple pleasure that cost a dime, then a quarter. How shockingly primitive when compared to the world of the computer nerd or hacker. Mainstream culture was dull, religiously appropriate and homogenized. Comic books and rock music were rebellious, subversive and naturally came under murderous fire from parents, teachers and politicians. Before, they could only read comics and fantasize about becoming more powerful. Elaborate ratings systems and restrictive codes eventually suffocated the comics' angry, biting spirit and made them as bland as network TV -- a cultural loss and free-speech outrage heading soon to a computer near you -- but not before Marvel and other comic creators cranked out some classic yarns, from Spider-Man and Batman to the X-Men and other superheroic tales. What makes these stories so popular and enduring? Perhaps because they all embody certain themes. There's the split-personality hero, usually a nerd who acquires great powers but at enormous cost, who always gets something and loses something. He gets to zip along past New York City skyscrapers, for instance, but we know he isn't likely to end up with the girl. Or, he lives in a mansion and drives a Batmobile, but he's depressed and lonely. Or he's a mutant wolverine with fingers of steel who can't ever have a casual beer with his pals. He cherishes his powers, but we know he can't ever be comfortable with his life. Robert Kane's early Batman: The Dark Knight was disturbingly dark and angry before the moralists turned comic books to bland mush. Few people remember that Kane ended his first Batman series with our hero giving up on life and essentially committing suicide by turning himself into the famed Arkham Asylum, where villains from the Joker to the Riddler were being held. Stories like Spider-Man and Batman also have a uniquely American and, until September 11, old-fashioned sense of civics. Spider-man's motto is "With great power comes great responsibility, " a bizarre notion even to hackers. Wou
JK says: > Robert Kane's early Batman: The Dark Knight was disturbingly dark and angry before the moralists turned comic books to bland mush. Few people remember that Kane ended his first Batman series with our hero giving up on life and essentially committing suicide by turning himself into the famed Arkham Asylum, where villains from the Joker to the Riddler were being held. I think you are referring to the Arkham Asylum GN from around 1990. Bob (not Robert) Kane's 1940s Batman was very dark, but it never "ended" and the term "dark knight" was never part of the title, it generally refers to the reinvented version of Batman from the mid 80s. I thought the Spiderman movie was great. I hope sequels learn the lesson from Batman movies: there should only be *One Villain* per movie. Mike Meyers might make a good Dr. Octopus, though he may be a bit young for the part. I like the hint dropped about Dr. Connors - he would make a great complex movie villain. Reccomendation to everyone : buy the black and white marvel reprint volumes of Amazing Spiderman 1-20 and 21-40 (about $20 each). Issues 15-30 or so are just amazing.
Spidor-Man inferior bug-creature. Hooman-spidor hybrid inferior. Bug armee not scared of spidor-man. Jonkatz inferior hooman creature. Bad writer he. No talent hack he. Pollute internet bandwidth with inane drivel he. Why slashdot publish articles of he, when vast majority of readers ask them to please stop publishing jonkatz drivel. Stupid website slashdot, no listen to users, will pay heavy price.
Bug armee CRUSH all hoomans including non-scary spidor-man and ESPECIALLY drivel-hack hooman JonKatz. Bug armee set for attack on all hoomans. Also disappointed hoomans to find that all spidors are allied with bug armee. Treaty made 1000's of years ago. Real spidors not scared of hoomans. Destroy earth hoomans. Earth meant for bugs and spidors not hoomans. 100% of all hoomans die in bug armee attack.
BUG-SPLAT!
ticket prices have been going up every year, so a 70s movie like Star Wars cannot compete in dollars and cents. I just love how the marketing departments keep calling each movie the highest grossing of all time since they usually get more dollars per ticket. Of course there is less difference between one year to the next.
Frank Miller did Dark Knight, not, as Katz says, Bob Kane. It was kind of a high-water mark for its time, along with Watchmen, because it really was on a different level artistically. I'd agree that it had a sort of mythical power.
"Elaborate ratings systems and restrictive codes eventually suffocated the comics' angry, biting spirit ... but not before Marvel and other comics creators cranked out ... Spider Man and ... X-Men ..."
The Comics Code Authority (CCA) was in place BEFORE Spider Man and X-Men were written.
So what is Katz talking about?
Remember (at least, there were in my editions of
Marvel, including the Fab 4 and the Silver Surfer,
which I do not see discussed here, surely making
good movies also),
those B&W ads for "Bullworker" like
exercisers which would give you a superhero
body in 20 minutes, seducing all the blonde
teenagers in sweaters and plaid skirts around,
or the ads for distant education kits
which would make you a Bill Gates or W.Hewlett
in weeks ? (electronics or computers included),
turning your nerd powers in money ?
thinking "frustrated teenage nerd" here ?
Google passes Turing test : see my journal
This guy... JK must be a pseudonym for someone else, somebody must be writing and then throwing the JK by-line on the article... I say this because there is no way that a rational human can be this far out-of-touch with his subject. A quick scan of the postings here will show the general wrath JK incites (thank God there are no public appearances scheduled for this guy); I would have to agree with the majority of them - JK doesn't have a clue as to what he is writing about.... I don't think JK is a real person, just an Anonymous Coward's screen name.
...we are from the government - we are here to help...
The Spider-Man story is pretty basic, especially when compared to the lumbering twists and turns of Star Wars: wimpy outer-borough kid contracts enormous powers, learns to use them wisely and well, faces terrible danger, sacrifices much.
Actually this is the Star Wars story as well. First trilogy: Anakin contract enormous powers (the Force), learns to use them, succumbs to evil. Second trilogy: Luke contracts enormous powers (the Force), learns to use them wisely and well, faces terrible danger, and redeems his father.
Of course there's some other themes, like man vs. technology, but I'd say the main theme of Star Wars is similar to the main theme of Spider-Man. Spider-Man and Star Wars were inspired by similar source materials as well: a comic book for the former, matinee serials for the latter.
...of comics as he claims, (the great, golden age of Marvel Comics. I'm one of them, I was there) seeing as it was June 1938 to 1945....Unless Jon is as ageless as his prose...
http://www.dereksantos.com/comicpage/gold.html
- If This Peace Is Fictious, I Shall Destroy It
Please post a spoiler warning if you're going to give away the plot of Episode 7! :-)
For once, a semi-decent read from Mr. Katz.. right up to this point:
Elaborate ratings systems and restrictive codes eventually suffocated the comics' angry, biting spirit and made them as bland as network TV -- a cultural loss and free-speech outrage heading soon to a computer near you -- but not before Marvel and other comic creators cranked out some classic yarns, from Spider-Man and Batman to the X-Men and other superheroic tales
For the record, the only real 'restrictive' code that comics have ever had was implemented in the 1950's, known as the Comics' Code Authority. This was a voluntary system, similar to modern movie ratings in the US today. It was brought in for the same reasons - the government was ready, willing, and able to deal with the issue itself, and the industry stepped up to the plate first.
Spider-Man and the X-Men weren't even a glimmer in Lee/Ditko/Kirby's collective eyes when the Code was introduced; what Katz is talking about here is beyond me. The bulk of early Marvel comics, well into the 1980's if not further, were highly sanatized due to the Code. Yes, they had some revolutionary stories, but they were 100% in compliance with the Code (or they wouldn't have gotten any decent distribution).
The only mainsteam comic to not abide by the Code until rather recently was, oddly enough, Spider-Man. Marvel did a 2 issue storyline involving drug use in the 70's - considered quite controversial at the time, and would never have passed the Code's strict standards. Marvel took a risk and released the issues without the Code approval on them. After that, it wasn't until the 80's at least, and moreso the 90's, before we really saw any comics without the Code prominent on their covers.
Now, the Code itself has changed radically over the years, and a lot of things in your average 'tame' comic these days would have been strictly forbidden in the 60's... but regardless, saying that Spider-Man and the X-Men did ANYTHING before the Code is not only false, it does a disservice to the original creators. Marvel in the early 60's managed to put out some amazing ideas, all while toeing the line nicely with the Comics' Code.
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
... is NOT part of a weekend! Thus, all the fanboys that are going out to see Star Wars in the first one or two days are actually hurting the 'opening weekend' total... So no shit that the opening weekend will be less.
hmmm, the real spiderman story seems anything but simple. Having the love of your life kidnapped by a crazy billionaire, and then by his son (a former good friend).
Getting a super alien bio-suit, only to find out that it's eating you alive (well kinda) and then to have it show up on your ol' pal eddy brock turning him into your worst nightmare.
Having all sorts of crazy mutations and trying to work as a photographer for a guy who hates your guts.
Sure maybe if you just read one issue, it doesn't have all the crazy plot twists. But if you look over the whole spiderman story (as you should with the Star Wars story) it is filled with many suprises and lots of other funky stuff.
They're just two different genre's. Star Wars wouldn't do well as a comic book (which is why it sells as novel's) and spidey is great as a comic, but wouldn't be as a novel.
This is left as an exercise for the reader.
who remember the great, golden age of Marvel Comics. I'm one of them, I was there
I don't think you were, the Golden age was way the hell back with World War II. Spiderman, and the rest of the popular Marvel comics of today are from the Silver age, which actually ended with the story that the move was about.
but not before Marvel and other comic creators cranked out some classic yarns, from Spider-Man and Batman to the X-Men and other superheroic tales.
The rating system was more to do with the horror comics and crime comics that were coming out at the time, rather than the superhero comics, and the system was put in pretty much in the fifties, during the McCarthy years. I'm not sure, but I think all of the superhero comics from Marvel were CCA approved, with the exception of the "Goblin's Last Stand Issues" around Amazing Spider Man 96-99. But that was because of drug use in the issues.
Or he's a mutant wolverine with fingers of steel who can't ever have a casual beer with his pals.
Ahem... claws. Greatest Canadian Superhero of all time, please don't goof him up.
Enough Comic Book guy stuff...
Peter Parker isn't as deep as the Skywalker brothers and Uncle Ben is no Obi-Wan. But as the box office receipts demonstrate, the writers at Marvel comics have held their own when it comes to myth-making. Sometimes, simpler is better.
Huh? A) who are the Skywalker brothers? B) What? Not as deep? Both are as shallow as kiddie pools.. movies made to sell merchandise.. don't get me wrong they're both fun and entertaining movies, but Starwars is based of crappy "Flash" serials from the 40's. It's not very deep. Good is good, evil is evil. And you can tell because the bad guy wears black and the good guy wears white. I understand your point about myth being more easily understood and entertaining, but isn't that obvious? People in general don't like to sit there going, "Huh?" after a movie. In terms of Sci-fi/fantasy movies as an artform there are a number that aren't as commerically successful as Spider-man, or the Starwars franchise, but they are equally as entertaining and slightly more artistic. Just of the top of my head, "Bladerunner" the directors cut is a much better movie than both.. is it as fun, no... but it's a better movie
Hey Jon, terrible piece quite frankly but just FYI:
Maybe Marvel should keep from alienating millions of fans by NOT having the main character (Peter Parker, no less) wind up being a clone of the main character. Lucas has the right idea when it comes to clones: don't have a clone of your hero running around AS the hero for decades.
If you consider the Spiderman mythos simplistic and the Star Wars mythos complex, you are not comparing apples to apples....the story of Star Wars is far LESS complex than the 40 year comic book/multiverse/tv show/etc/ history of Spiderman. The concept may be relatively simple, so is Star Wars...you might even argue they are very similar in fact: with great power comes great responsibility. Peter Parker is the good side of that equation, while Anikin/Darth Vader (the main character of the 6 movies) is the other.
I love your massivley simplistic logic Jon, here is an idea for your next article:
The sky is blue.
My car is blue.
My car is the sky.
Run with it.
That's not a direct criticism of Star Wars - really, are there any new plots? It's just that these two guys are sooo full of themselves, lauding themselves as the torchbearers of archetypal mythology, blah blah.
Advice: on VPS providers
This is one of the best written articles I've read on slashdot in a while, almost makes me want to hit that subscribe button in my profile :p
Somehow I wonder if the author of the Spiderman property would agree with it being 'simple'. Maybe, but to me comic book heroes have never been simple. Their psyche, their motivations, loves, etc. are merely reflections (IMHO) of the author who writes them. It has oft been said that a painting paints the picture of an artist, rather than the other way around.
For me though, I agree that to a certain extent Batman has been horribly Saturday Morning Disney Cartoonized. I miss the more hamlet-like soliloquys that used to pervade comics like Batman. At the same time, I don't think they're "dead yet", some of the work that was done in the early 90's late 80's on the animated serious was plenty dark sometimes. Harvey in the animated series was often a chracter that brought an appropriate amount of darkness to the show.
I disagree with the assumption that most people will like Spiderman better than AoC simply because of a 'simpler story'. Look at the enormous popularity of the Lord of the Rings movie, it is far from simple.
Anyway, I've rambled enough.
Spider-Man...record-breaking...warm-hearted web-slinging...arachnoid-nerd...Spider-Man...die-h ard... pre-Net...sci-fi... rock-and-roll... free-speech... Spider-Man... X-Men... split-personality... outer-borough... Obi-Wan... myth-making...
It's true... myth is a good attention-driving-machine, it's a known-fact:
Just look at how many posts are made at JonKatz articles just to tell him they hate whatever he has to say.
It's because of the myth.. they know it's an article from the evil hyphen-man, they will hate it, but they will look at it anyway
For a couple of decades a loooong time ago, some American comics were subtly subversive. The truly inspiration Krazy Kat springs to mind. Then we had WWII followed by McCarthyism. The genuinely thoughtful comics dissappeared and the vast majority of comics, became revoltingly wholesome and patriotic, even jingoistic.
Far from being subversive, comics formed one of the most powerful and blatant mechanisms for establishing concensus. Had the government produced a deliberate plan to mould the minds of children so that they would grow into unquestionly patriotic and gung ho cannon fodder in preparation for the next war, I doubt they could have done any better. Try reading mainstream 50s 60s or 70s comics after "sed s/America/Russia/g" and imagine that you were looking at soviet propoganda. You would be horrified by the crudity and bias.
This changed later on of course, but how you can call the "golden period" of American comics subversive is beyond me.
http://rareformnewmedia.com/
The opening shot with the sidekicks arguing as they leave the battle is an obvious pull by Lucas from this classic. The droids walk away from the escape pod after miraculously surviving the battle and bicker and fuss. Don't even get me on the General(Toshiro Mifune)/Obi-wan comparison. When Lucas starts pulling long focal length shots with lots of rain and horses, his title as the primo ripoff artist will be sealed.
Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
http://www.canoe.ca/JamStarWars/may27_fortress.htm l
...who remember the great, golden age of Marvel Comics. I'm one of them, I was there.
Actually Spider-Man was part of the silver age of comics from 1956-1969 or so. He had his start in 1963 (give or take a year). The golden age of comics is from the beginning of comics in the mid 1930s to 1956.
-- the comic guy --
Sorry but I'll have to agree, the casting, the elements of the story are such that it is refreshing to see a movie of this kind with characters and situations the public can identify with.
they could have cut the BS with New Yorkers on the bridge (we're not stupid, you don't need to spell it out), but other than that, I tought it was great.
also check out Wonder Boys: Maguire & Douglas are hilarious.
there's no place like ~
"Peter Parker isn't as deep as the Skywalker brothers and Uncle Ben is no Obi-Wan."
Skywalker brothers? I know that the Star Wars story is complicated, but I always thought Luke had a sister....
Does Katz know something I don't?
This is my opinion. To make sure you don't steal it, it's covered by the DMCA.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Deconstructing Star Wars and Spider-man is all well and good. After all, there are reasons we are drawn to these fantastical stories. They are centered on the universal journey that everyone takes when growing up and dealing with a universe of strange and mysterious places and people. Adulthood is the ultimate destination of all these characters. But what sort of Adult will they be?
So it's not surprising we get the Joe Campbell comments and so on. And it's darn tempting for those of us in Jon Katz's age group to justify our childhood passions for this material. Remember, when we were young, this "pop culture" stuff was considered "trash" at best and literally "evil and subversive" by some. Even playing Dungeons and Dragons in the early 80's was akin to a Satanic Mass to the less knowledgeable. But I digress...
But Katz has gone too far imho> . Though, he's been goaded on by George Lucas and a whole mess of media filler that loved to put forth the idea that Star Wars is somehow a deeply spiritual tale. While, the less Intellectually inclined might point out that the story of a boy growing into a man is a pretty easy way to suck in the kids. Not to poo poo Star Wars as a story. It's fine really, but to apply more to it than it's Saturday Morning Serial intentions might be too much. Being an old guy, I can tell you that Star Wars has loads of elements from old Sci - Fi novels and doesn't present anything particularly new to the genre, except it's spectacular presentation on the movie screen.
And Steve Ditko created Spider-man. Stan Lee is a bit too eager to claim "co-creator" rights. Face it Stan, you were the editor.
However, I believe that anyone who does claim to be a writer has to follow some simple guidelines:
- Accuracy -- check your facts (Wolverine of X-Men fame has adamatine claws, and so does "drink with his buddies") before you write about them.
- Consistency -- Have your essay actually make one point. Don't seesaw back and forth on different topics hoping to stumble upon a point. It is like having a plot -- please actually have one!
- Integrity -- Say what you believe in. If Star Wars does better than Spider-Man, should we be expecting an article on how complex themes appeals to the mass audience more than "simple" story lines?
- Quality -- Don't make your 'editorials' your personal diary. At least don't make it read like your personal diary -- a meandering mess. Don't use buzz words like some clueless PHB. I'm sure some other
/. poster will have the "check list" (geek empowerment check, reference to hackers check, references to terrorism/Sept11 check, etc)
Perhaps you do some reading before you write next. May I suggest:"You have the option of insanity. I do not. And that makes me crazy!" - Brian to Angela, My So-Called Life
"golden age of Marvel Comics"
:)
actually Spider-Man and all late 60s early 70s comics are the beginning of the silver age
also to see if a movie has endearing qualities i'd go more box office total beyond then the blitz filled opening weekend...
i do agree though, Spider-Man, and most of the origianl Marvel comic characters, rely on normal people in extrodinary situations, which is one reason people can relate with them. with the original star wars it was kind of like that with Luke but with Anakin, we know he is 'special' and therefore maybe have a harder time relating with him and his bratty banter...
with the superpower of posting lameass
features for thousands of fellow, inferior
nerds to see, and maybe also the power
of raising or lowering their karma ?
what about responsability, here ?
I doubt you get the girl though
***Stories like Spider-Man and Batman also have a uniquely American and, until September 11, old-fashioned sense of civics. Spider-man's motto is "With great power comes great responsibility, " a bizarre notion even to hackers. Wouldn't that have seemed clunky before the terrorist attacks? Now it has a certain resonance.***
Please get off of your drama-queenesque high horse. I normally don't have too large a beef against you, but even though relating everything to September 11th may seem like a higher level of thought, it's just unrealistic. Contrary to your beliefs, most people aren't strongly/directly affected by September 11th, and as such don't change their perception of diction in American language in response to the attack. Just because it happened does not mean that it must pervade every aspect of our lives, especially movie-going, and although it may have connections to our perceptions of evil/good, it does not define them. Although this sense of detachment may seem tragic in the wake of so many senseless deaths, it's the realistic state of American society... Weaving allusions to nonexistant connotations that seem complex and relevant is just a cheap way to impress less knowledgable readers... you should be ashamed.
But as the box office receipts demonstrate, the writers at Marvel comics have held their own when it comes to myth-making. Sometimes, simpler is better.
While the article makes some good (although hardly original) points, this closing is off base.
Strong opening box office receipts are hardly an indicator of good myth-making, only good publicity, and to a lesser degree, good (popular) film making.
Most popular movies hardly far into the "myth" category. While both the new Star Wars and Spider-Man are/will be popular movies with mythicly inspired stories lines, this alone hardly qualifies them as popular myths. For instance, Titanic was very popular not really for its myth-making, just effective (in a popular sense) story telling. The Star Wars (movies and spin-offs) and Spider-Man (comic book, cartoon) franchises are good examples of myth-making that have had various degrees of pervasive influence in modern culture.
Whether Spider-Man (the new movie) contributes to the comic's existing legacy is yet to be seen and cannot be determined by its opening box-office receipts alone. Often the best modern "myth" has been only seen as such after the fact and often despite poor commercial success or critical acclaim.
Also, Spider-Man (the movie) is just a retelling of an existing and fairly well-know story - its "myth" has already been made. The new Star Wars contributes a wholly new part to an existing and evolving myth, a much better example of "myth-making".
Finally, with respect to Katz' last sentence: sometimes simplicity can help (either the story, its popularity, or its mythic characteristics), but sometimes effective myth is also very complex. I hardly see this as a determinant of effective myth-making.
My next sig will be ready soon, but friends can beat the rush!
Luke had a sister... and Anakin is an only child. Who are these "Skywalker" brothers?
If I recall correctly, Lucas has actually admitted that Kurosawa's "The Hidden Fortress" was the 'inspiration' for Star Wars. Whether or not blatant ripoffs count as inspiration is up for debate.
Elaborate ratings systems and restrictive codes eventually suffocated the comics' angry, biting spirit and made them as bland as network TV
IMO, what suffocated comics was not rating systems, but collectors. I remember reading comics such as X-Men, Spiderman, etc. back in elementary through high school. Towards the end, comics starting costing over $2 a pop, and kept on rising. It seemed as if every comic that came out had some sort of "gimic" to make it a "collector's" item, like a funky cover, or multiple covers, etc..
And ratings? Restrictive codes? Look at comics now - are they more "bland" in terms of edgy material? Or are they more "bland" because of all the edgy material... as if that makes up for innovation, or good writing.
Ah well, I'm an old fart at 28.
Jon seems to WANT to draw in myth and yet I never really saw where he did (much less why Spidey is more "myth" than Star Wars!)... Here is my take...
Spiderman is, in fact, merely a rehash of a tired theme: that the use of radioactivity will "somehow" unlock power/create powers/instill powers not granted to the normal Joe. This is "science" of the 50's - quaint, but rather foolish.
The comic was, as to my wife would put it as I am a diehard D.C. fan (I'll get to Batman in a minute), "Spiderman is a soap opera". I couldn't put it more succinctly. I found the comic to be EXCEEDINGLY dull with stories that, no doubt, interested those who enjoyed super-heroes having the ability to bash heads, but don't have enough courage to ask a woman out on a date. Give me a break already! Where is the exit!!!
Spiderman fails, for me, where many other comics fail. Jeez, if he is not whining about not having he courage to ask Mary Jane out on a date it is remembering (lower lip trembles) about Uncle Ben! Fond memories, yes, but these are, well, on the order of Tommy!
Batman, was more my style. He didn't have superpowers, didn't use a gun, and attempted to avoid killing anyone. Period. And did the man have problems! Sheesh! He SHOULD turn himself into an asylum! But he remains my fav. Why? Because his weapon is a far older mythology, the fear of the dark, the dangers of the unknown and, in this case, the angst that comes about knowing that you can't save everyone.
What Parker never was, and I will argue never can be successfully, is the person that we all are - the one that yells at those who don't deserve it; the person that secretly wishes people to JUST...PLAIN...DIE - these types of emotions just do not exist in the Peter Parker universe. This is why Spiderman does not fall within the realm of myth. Perhaps the films receipts do, but receipts do not a legend make.
Star Wars, despite Luke being a yahoo from the rural areas, succeeds in this because it describes the imperfections of man, right down to the tiny bit of greed (the Dark Side). It runs into the scare of incest (whoa, Luke, that's your sister you're tonguing!), of true paternity, and the meaning of family ("yeah, they may be charcoal briquets, but Uncle Owen an Aunt Beru were like kin").
So, AOTC may not pull in the same receipts that Spidey did, in the end, so what? The more interesting aspect of it is that EVERYONE in this country (save but a few) know what you're talking about when you say "the Dark Side". THAT, my friend, is the power of myth.
Mention Uncle Ben and most people think of rice.
May the "m*a" be with you...
IANAL, but I've seen actors play them on TV
Remember the Katz posting about the Afghan with the 'modem connected Commodore downloading stuff off the internet and watching Baywatch' story? Another posting the Katz dragged in!
wrote off the $114 million of Spider-Man as the American public reaching out for something to do. It had been a while since a good movie had been out and the time was prime. What does this say to the hollywood types who are shaking in their boots and shaking down "online video traders" for cutting into their profits? Basically it says that if you have a good MOVIE or good MUSIC(in the case of the RIAA -- these pieces are interchangable) that people will still spend real green money on your products in record numbers. And then you look like horses asses saying that the Internet "piracy" of media is killing you -- you say that with more money overflowing out of your pockets than ever before. Like Lars did when he came out against Napster -- it's ironic how people don't start "stealing your money" until you have more than you will ever need......When you were eating macaroni and touring in a van for Kill Em All' I bet you did not mind people trading your tapes to get word of mouth......(Much the same way that those suckers trying to get their $2000 film noticed for inclusion into Sundance -- would cream their jeans if they thought 1 million people where sharing their film on the net....But once that same film makes 1 million dollars -- then you better not share it..)
Greedy Pigs
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
wimpy outer-borough kid contracts enormous powers, learns to use them wisely and well, faces terrible danger, sacrifices much.
Star Wars plot summary (from me):
wimpy outer-rim kid contracts enormous powers, learns to use them wisely and well, faces terrible danger, sacrifices much. Repeat.
So, what exactly is so different about the basic plot structures here? Split personality/dark and brooding hero whos powers seperate him from those he wants to be with? Hero doesn't get the girl? Yeah, remember Return of the Jedi? Never shirks on duty to the common good, even though it may cost him everything he holds dear? Yup, got that too. Maybe you mean the Orphan Hero thing... Oh wait, Star Wars has that, too.
All the myth elements you attribute to Spider-man have already been explored, repeatedly and in greater detail, in the Star Wars series, and Episodes 1-3 are following the same basic lines you've outlined as well, with a few minor twists. If spreading it out over multiple films makes it to hard for you to follow, than you have no business publishing a critical analysis of the subject matter.
I've never been a Katz basher, but come on! This so called 'comparison' is absurd.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
Stories like Spider-Man and Batman also have a uniquely American and, until September 11, old-fashioned sense of civics. Spider-man's motto is "With great power comes great responsibility..."
That's a uniquely American ideal? Hmmm. 'Cause America always strives to be responsible, right?
-- dR.fuZZo
Spider-Man and Batman also have a uniquely American and, until September 11, old-fashioned sense of civics... "With great power comes great responsibility"
I disagree with that statement - there's nothing 'uniquely' american about recognizing that great responsibility comes with great powers. But I'm not the only one who disagrees - while Sam Raimi may have just been blabbing on with no point, he said quite seriously in an press conference for Japanese TV (shown on CSN1 in Japan) that while he thought Batman was a very American hero, he felt that Spider-Man belonged to the world.
Of course, he could just be interested in overseas cash for his flick, but he did say it and I think it's worth mentioning.
In this Post-Columbine, Globalist society in the aftermath of Nine-Eleven, Katz tells it like it is.
I think trying to figure which one is better in a sense or trying to figure out which will do better in the box office should not be the issue here. I think this story really highlights how well Sci-Fi has hit the main stream. I mean look back to about 10 years ago even. Do you remember anyone you could talk to about RPG or D&D games at school? If you did you probably meet them at the Comic book store where you spent all your money on comic books and RPG gear. I think that when the more advancded graphic games came into the sign in the 90's it really opened up the minds of a lot of people. Now the die hard fans are still debating weather this was good or not but I believe it is all for the good. Sorry to rant on but I would add more but do not have time to at work today.
Laters, Shmac
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Do they leave the advertisements off the Katz stories because nobody will sponsor them?
Maybe I'm wrong I think they both came out at the same time (I was 12 and excited about breaking the rules to see a PG-13 movie). Red Dawn was actually a decent movie but I liked Dreamscape better. It was on TBS the other day. Still kind of scary.
Everything he writes is crap. He drags down Slashdot (maybe not too hard a feat sometimes...). I realize I can turn off Katz articles, but they shouldn't be here in the first place.
Was Spider-Man release week "we like the MPAA week" and Star Wars release week "we hate the MPAA (and Lucas) week"? This gets so confusing I can't keep track.
Katz likes to go off about myth and the power of a good story rooted in the growing up of a child, but like some of these other posters pointed out, he simply bought into a US $50 million dollar mega-hyped movie and it seems he went head first.
After years of dismal summer movies and realizing that the hype machine keeps getting bigger and bigger (Godzilla, Wild Wild West, Men in Black [we saw the entire film by just watching the commercials!], Tomb Raider, Lost World, A.I., and on and on], and after seeing how the MPAA treats the general public and wants to corrupt technology to keep their coffers spilling over, I have now moved to a skeptical consumer. I don't need to see every over-hyped movie released into the theaters. I'm choosing to skip most of this summer's movies because when it all comes down to it, they pale in comparison to previous works and I feel no need to give the MPAA any more funding.
Go see more indie films, Katz. You want good story telling, some even rooted in myth, you'll find good stuff there.
I figured there wouldn't be one reference to globalization in there but I knew he was going to reference that hack Joseph Campbell.
There was a good article at Salon one month back about both George Lucas and Joseph Campbell ... and not very complimentary that.
You want to know who isn't running Firefox 2.x? They spell it "definately" and "rediculous".
Whatever, dude.
This pseudo-intellectual BS about "myth" really seems to be catching on now. Even people like John Katz can proselytize on it.
The fact remains that the appeal of comic books is rooted in Biological Social Dominance. When humans who have a dominant drive, fail to achieve dominance in their social groups through the traditional means, (grunting, sweating, feats of strength, etc.) they do what animals can't; they try to find alternate means of achieving dominance and power: Money, Intellect, or even Guile - etc. It's what drives all fields of human endeavour.
Thus, the weak, sickly, sensitive artist uses his talent to create to gain respect and dominance, in a field which utterly rejects the unindoctrinated. (when was the last time Joe Sixpack appreciated Picasso?)
The scrawny geek learns a technical field filled with obscure jargon which favors his mental talents, and ignores his physical shortcomings - and all challengers to his 1337 command of his field bow to his might.
While we're young, and still trying to reach these goals, we fulfill these biological urges through fantasy. Fantasy is probably rooted in the function of planning goal attainment. But when the goals are unrealistic (having superpowers) - they can still somewhat satisfy the urge to attain dominance, at least in fantasy.
I'm not saying that all comic book fans are failures at attaining dominance. I'm saying that even the most successful among us have times when, even though they're well on track to achieving social dominance, still require a quick, temporary fix for the urge. Comic books are one fix. Video games are another fix. Pornography is another, and drugs are also. It may even be that obcessive-compulsive disorder is rooted in the drive to master some part of one's environment that one feels one does not control.
The problem with dominance and control is - it cannot be GIVEN. It must be TAKEN. For those who have this urge. Fantasy is the mind's way of taking control of one's environment at times when one feels not in control. Myth is rooted in this fantasy, and it's not much more complicated than that. So I don't see what the big deal is. Rah-rah. Joseph Campbell is da man. whatever.
Millions of scrawny, science-aware geeks idolize Spider Man, because Spider Man represents the ultimate fantasy: being the master of alternate forms of dominance (Art (photography), Science) - and not NEEDING to resort to the alternate forms, because he has super-powers, and can kick pretty much anyone's ass. That's why, in my mind, Spider Man has always been the most appealing superhero to me.
The justice, the heroism, the drama, is all window-dressing aside from the root appeal. You can tell this by how especially weak it is in the whole X-Men BS. Comparatively, Spider Man's world and life are much more strongly constructed. As is Batman, and Superman.
I find Batman hugely more appealing, because he has no "magical" powers. He is strong on a level playing field with other men. And therefore, does not have an unfair advantage of radioactive spider DNA, or being from another planet.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Every damned movie critic and self-imposed cultural commentarian ala Katz stirs up the old "Power of Myth" soup every time an iteration of their favorite superhero / space opera comes up in a conversation, and it's tiring. Everyone's heard it already and worse, it has no proprietary relationship to the fantasy genre, thus betraying an essential misunderstanding of the meaning of the conclusions on cultures' storytelling habits as explained by Campbell and more in-depth studies by people like Claude Levi-Strauss.
The point, as anyone of the anthropological bent who's studied this can tell you, is that the prototypical mythic elements play into EVERY story. EVERY SINGLE movie / book / play / video game contains the same damned mythic elements. There is no limitation to myths, superhero comics, or the latest Meryl Streep vehicle according to structural anthropologists who study multicultural storytelling. Check out Levi-Strauss' The Savage Mind and The Raw and the Cooked for specific structural analyses of the arrangements of elements in ordinary stories from entirely separate cultures that have no relationship to one another, and yet are, basically, telling the SAME DAMN STORIES!
The similarity of elements in stories says something amazing about the common basis of human thought, but such mythic elements are NOT the property of Star Wars or Spider-Man. Real understanding of the importance of mythic themes comes when you get out of fantasy or space and see it in Three Little Pigs, Memento, last year's Pollock, Lawrence of Arabia and every other tale told on the screen or anywhere else.
The only tool you've got against psychosis is experience.
I read the entire tag, twice, and was still in confusion. It made no sense at all. I then had the bright idea to check who posted it, and guess who it was
yeah seriously, this is just disturbing.
The book is A Dog Year, about his experiences with 4 dogs. My wife is currently reading it, and I haven't asked her much about it, but every once in a while she laughs a lot, and every once in a while she gets very angry.
My wife volunteers for the SPCA, and we're both really pro-adoption and pro-mutt. Katz isn't - he likes breeds (and believes that a dog's personality is mostly determined by breed), and he likes puppies, and he thinks rescuing dogs is a fad (and possibly a bad idea, because of the dog's emotional baggage). He also believes in putting a dog down when it has a major health complication (he puts down one lab for heart problems, the other for cancer). These differences in opinion are the source of much of the anger.
His style seems to be the "personal journalism" that we all love - relating all the experiences without much censorship. For instance, he says that he bought a puppy from the mall, then admits that it is a lousy idea to do so (the dog dies young). He admits how frustrating dogs can be, and how tempting it is to hit them when they are being frustrating. He also admits throwing a ball into a flooding river, causing his dog to go in after it and get washed down the river. He jumps in to save the dog, then gets trapped himself, and his other dog has to save the two of them.
Again, I can't recommend it, because I haven't read it. My wife thinks she may be able to recommend it, but not to SPCA types. If you want a book for SPCA types, an excellent one is Lost and Found. The author, Elizabeth Hess, is also a journalist, and spends some time in an animal shelter. It hits all the interesting points, from euthenasia to puppy mills to the truth behind those AKC papers. I strongly recommend it to anyone who enjoys pets, especially if you are thinking of getting a new one.
I'd say it was semi-decent right up until the point Posted by JonKatz....
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
Why do these pseudo intellectual elitists insist on agrandizing something as simple as a good movie?
I watched Spider Man cartoons as a kid, almost everyone I know did. The movie was true to the comic, had great special effects, the plot really worked well, and the characters and dialog and delivery was the right mix of real vs comic. Some of the treatment was exceptionally good, like the wrestling cage match & the first costume and added a modernity that broadened the appeal of the movie and character.
No need to bolster flawed archetypal myth stories to explain this. Spider man does not match an archetypal mythology, if you insist it does then I can make the same case about just about any movie, good, bad or indifferent.
Why don't you go pick a real stinker of a movie that bombed and explain how it matches some archetypal mythology? Because you'd look pretty dumb to most people, about as dumb as you look to anyone with a clue when you do it with Spider Man.
couldn't help but laugh at the action/fight scenes. I kept waiting for the Green Goblin to morph into a giant robot, and for spidey to call on his other power ranger friends. That rediculous burning house scene, worst ever since MI:2. Insufferably corny, and not kitchy enough to support the cheese. The movie was boring, it stripped out the wonder and the humor from the comics. Watching one-note play spidey was depressing, 'cause you know, guys with brains don't get chicks. you gotta be built and tough first.
Luke refers to the Lars as "Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru"? His uncle would be his father's brother.
Couldn't Beru be his mother's sister? Of course, why then would she have left Naboo for Tatooine? (except maybe to get to the fringe of the republic and, thus, hide from the Emperor. Hm.)
And, actually, I thought I'd read that Shimi(?) married someone after she was freed, and that this someone was Owen Lars' brother. So Owen and Beru would be Luke's great-uncle, on his step-grandfather's side. Or something like that.
On the other hand, I could be remembering the scriptment completely wrong. Guess I'll find out next thursday.
If I am not mistaken, the comics code authority was established after Spiderman debutted (correct me if I am wrong please).
_ __
However, even during this oppresive reign, Spiderman pushed the edge of the code's envelope in every possible way. Flash Thompson who was Peter Parker's High School nemesis went to Vietnam. Yes, a comic book character went to 'Nam and they talked about the anti-war protests too!
Not only that but Harry Osbourne was a druggie who dropped a tab of bad acid. After the Green Goblin found out who Spiderman was and that Harry and Peter were friends it only led to a psychopathic move where the Green Goblin blamed Peter (and therefore, Peter) for all his son's troubles.
Add to this the fact that Spiderman was hunted as a criminal for awhile and you get some interesting stories.
Oh yes, Gwen Stacy who happened to be Peter's first big love dies when she is chunked off the Brooklyn Bridge. Before this, important even peripheral characters rarely died and never died in this kind of dramatic fashion.
At every turn Spiderman pushed the edge of the Comics code and out of it came a story that in many ways more socially significant and relfective of the times than the bland Superman and Batman comics of the time could ever dream of being until Denny O'Neil got ahold of the Batman franchise in the seventies.
_______________________________________________
ACK
No matter how dedicated a following Star Wars movies have, it's hard to expect people to take a film called "Attack of the Clowns" seriously...
The ONLY reason I can see to keep this guy around is because his posts have HUGE moderations, inevitably attrack mammonth numbers of page views are users sift through the Katz flaming, which then relates to increased Ad revenue for banners based on impressions.
You might not admit it, but thats gotta be the answer. Using the old Vince McMahon tactic... if they love you, great, if they hate you, great, if they are indifferent, find a new job. Craziness.
it is Spider-Man... please do not forget the proper usage of the hyphen, especially in the case of posting on a JK story, Mr. Hyphen to you pal....
One film analysts told the Wall Street Journal last week that with the success of Spider-Man, the blockbuster bar has been raised. In fact, he said, this movie has changed Hollywood's perception of what a blockbuster is. That makes it interesting for George Lucas, next up at your local megaplex.
... This film (Episode 2) is going to come out and not do nearly what Spider-Man did.' He noted that his film will not be playing in as many theaters as Spider-Man, because 'I'm interested in a good presentation, so I'm insisting that the film be released in theaters with digital sound and good quality theaters. ... So you don't look to us to break any records.'"
With all these comparisons between how Spider-Man has done at the box office vs. what Attack of the Clones will do at the box office next week, I thought I'd point out that in today's edition of Studio Briefing (under the "Spidey Keeps Climbing" headline), "...even George Lucas has conceded box-office supremacy to the Sam Raimi film. In an interview appearing in today's (Friday) Toronto Star, Lucas complained that the news media have 'turned it into a contest and it's not a contest. It's an art form.
"Plagurism" is a serious accusation to hurl at a writer. It isn't the same thing as telling him he "sucks" or is "stupid." Ultimately, it can hurt his career.
I have read several posts calling Katz a plagurist because both he and the NYT used the word "elephantine" to describe something that was, well, elephantine.
The "evidence" for the accusation? "Elephantine is a big unusual word! And NYT used it and so did Katz!" Well, for someone with an small-to-ordinary vocabulary, "Elephantine" is probably a big word. But to someone with a large vocabulary, like for example a writer, it is not that unusual.
If both Katz and the NYT challenged us to look at the film from a "heterophenominological perspective" or something like that, then I could see pointing that out as too odd to be coincidental. But I think it is irresponsible to cast a serious slur on someone just because they had the audacity to use the word "elephantine."
God is real unless declared integer
Dude where's my car
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Breakfast served all day!
I'll bet Peter Parker's adventure surpasses the upcoming opening weekend of Attack of the Clones and teaches George Lucas something about the power and nature of myth
Excuse me? Since when star wars can be directly compared to Spiderman? Next thing is some movie like Titanic will debut and rake up more profits than Episode II and John Katz will write that *this* would teach something to Lucas.
I don't know if Lucas even wanted the star wars to be *accessible* as Spiderman and such.
'Elephantine' is the current hot word for movies. A quick google search shows that Dune, The Fellowship of the Ring, and Jim Carrey's "The Majestic" are all described as 'elephantine'. It looks like Katz and the MYT reviewer are just being part of the Zeitgeist.
The bulk of early Marvel comics, well into the 1980's if not further, were highly sanatized due to the Code.
Back in the 80s when I read "The Uncanny X-Men" I remember Wolverine killing people all the time. There was one series with him and havok where he shoved one of his claws through the back of a guard's head so that the tip emerged from the guard's eye socket.
If anything was "sanitized," it was the X-Men cartoon of the 90s. Wolverine was even more harmless than Jubilee, making sure only to use his claws on enemies that cannot possibly be harmed by them (Omega Red, Juggernaut) but making sure to growl threatening sentences and extend/retract his claws about ten times per episode.
Come to think of it, Wolverine in "X-Men: Evolution" is pretty much the same way. I'd really like to see a rated-R version of "The Uncanny X-Men," animated or live-action. In particular, I'd love to see a full-length animated or live-action feature based on the 6-issue "Kitty Pryde and Wolverine" series. That would rock.
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
It's probably worth saying that just about any story falls into a few of Joseph Campbell's archetypes. Some fit more, some fit less, but no story I'm aware of fits them all. Indeed, some of the archetypes are contradictory.
:)
The notion that Luke Skywalker is a Campbellian hero apparently wasn't talked about until years after A New Hope was made. Still, that doesn't mean there aren't Campbellian elements...Anakin fits this, too. After he becomes Vader and his son overthrows him, it's likely that episodes 7, 8, and 9 would detail Luke's fall to the Dark Side, and another Jedi rising up to defeat him. It's cyclical, but that's part of the myth.
Some of these elements overlap with Spider-Man. Then again, maybe it's just a coming-of-age story with web-slingers. I dunno.
Here's my brief dissertation on the literary value of Spider-Man...hopefully I'll get less flames than Jon Katz.
--ryan.
Don't say, "don't quote me," because if no one quotes you, you probably haven't said a thing worth saying.
You homersexual, read above, then lick away
>The old form still has legs eight, in this case.
-1, "1337" speak
And he's an idiot. Spider-Man raised the bar? What utter tripe. I didn't hate the movie, but it did have a certain obviousness, a clunky awkwardness of the actors and their characters, and a very clearly predictable (to the point foreshadowing wasn't even required... you could predict that too...) plot. It was okay escapist entertainment, but it was hardly the reinvention of the Mythic Tale.
Even X-men which was also escapist fantasy had more of a story to tell, the characters had a bit more emotional depth and the actors did a better job of bringing the roles to life. Of the two, it was clearly the better movie. The Villain in it was twisted, but there was at a strong element of sympathy there - even the heroes had to consider the agenda he was espousing in order to reject it.
And if you want the reinvention of the myth, I think Unbreakable was the best telling of a rethought pulp comic/mythic tale I've seen in a long time (let's ignore LOTR for this discussion, it also was good). It brought to life the American superhero character with all the mythic overtones in a way that was both sophisticated and absorbing. Of course, much of that would be lost on the Spider Man fans, and maybe on Katz too, but since when is having a bit of substance or depth a bad thing? Since when is it raising the bar to produce the entertainment equivalent of pablum?
Anyone who thinks Spider Man raises the bar for mythic stories even on the Hollywood Big Screen seriously needs to get out more.
-- Mal: "Well they tell you: never hit a man with a closed fist. But it is, on occasion, hilarious."
It's probably just a choice in Thesaurus feature the right click menu of MS Word.
I don't disagree with this topic's analysis of the role of myth in these movies, but I've felt all along this spring, more that other years, people were waiting for and needing some big-time cheap diversion, and Spiderman happened to be it.
The content of the movie is very good, and a poor or fair movie would not have made it the phenomenon it was - and we've had a long late winter and early spring full of poor or fair movies.
But a big reason this is an instant $100M movie and not just a standard blockbuster was pent-up need. Now, where that need came from (besides a lousy early spring) is up in the air.
Overall, the only argument i've seen in favor of the Star Wars/Campbell relationship is that they both deal with "the eternal struggle between good and evil". Name two movies that DON'T deal with that struggle...
Well, let's see, how about rushmore and, uhm. Debby Does Dallas?
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Spiderman will do better than Attack of the Clones because the former lacks Jar Jar Binks.
They did some editing after 9/11 (The origional climax was in the WTC plaza...) but the movie was basicaly completed before the attacks.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
After reading this review, there little doubt left in my mind that Katz is purposely baiting the slashdot community in order to get everyone all fired up.
He's probably realized that he's going to get flamed no matter what he writes, so he puts up this review filled with errors and inaccuracies, with words such as "elephantine" thrown in just to see how many cries of plagiarism come up.
Aside: Use of the word elephantine does not constitute plagiarism. The rest of the paragraph, excluding that word, had nothing in common with the NYT review. But I digress...
1: I'm sure he must know Batman is DC, not marvel, if he's as big a fan of comics as he says.
2: A wolverine with fingers of steel? Again, he's just taunting you guys...
3: Throw in some reference to 9/11 for good measure.
4: Sit back and watch the flames roll in.
I think it's hilarious. Katz probably does too...
It looks like Katz and the MYT reviewer are just being part of the Zeitgeist.
And next year, "zeitgeist" will the new hot word for movies. (-;
Those who complain about affect & effect on
Campbell may in fact have failed to explain every aspect of every culture, but I don't suppose he ever tried to. Yes, there are some differences between cultures, values, and probably some of the origination of the stories. But at the end of the day, we're all human and have some of the same drives, weaknesses, foibles, and idiosyncracies which is pretty much a lot of what myth uses as a core element. I think you don't give Campbell enough credit.
-- Mal: "Well they tell you: never hit a man with a closed fist. But it is, on occasion, hilarious."
I've read a whole bunch about how much Star Wars sucks and has always sucked in the past few weeks. Now first of all, I'm not a diehard Star Wars or Spiderman fan, but I am familar with both (I haven't seen the Spiderman movie, but I've read a few of the comic books). I think that comparison between the two is pretty ridiculous - Star Wars is definately an epic in scope and feel, while Spiderman is a much more personal tale. Anyway, the problem that I have at nailing Lucas and folk for Star Wars is the nature of the attacks. Star Wars was pretty universally popular until the Phantom Menace came out, and all of a sudden the entire series was terrible. People are acting insulted as if Lucas has forever ruined something that belonged to us: the Star Wars story. Lucas doesn't owe anything to anybody; the story was always his. If you don't like the new movies, give it up and watch the old ones. Stop telling us how much they suck because we can make up our own minds. I'm going to pay $4.50 for an AOTC matinee on Thursday next week, and I frankly think that that is a fair price to pay. I thought some parts of Episode I were pretty lame, but I know the AOTC isn't going to be any worse; from what I've heard, it will be better. So either like it or don't like it, but don't take it personally.
njord
Shimi is purchased and freed by someone named Lars (don't remember the first name off-hand), whom she then marries. Shimi then gives birth to Owen. Owen is thin Annie's half-brother.
*** Quantum Mechanics: The Dreams of Which Stuff is Made ***
Must have glitched some HTML (... yes I should have previewed). The idiot I refer to is not Katz but the movie reviewer who said Spider Man raises the bar.
-- Mal: "Well they tell you: never hit a man with a closed fist. But it is, on occasion, hilarious."
Spider-Man shocked analysts and critics last week, racking up a record-breaking $114 million opening weekend for Sam Raimi's warm-hearted adaptation about the web-slinging arachnoid-nerd from Queens who gets the bad guy but really wants the girl.
My God, Mr. Katz, you make Spider-Man sound like some indie flick from the early Kevin Smith days instead of a summer blockbuster that Sony Pictures, Inc. spent over $50 million marketing the flick to the masses. How does it surprise anyone other than you that it made $114 million? Here's a surprise prediction for you: Spider-Man, AotC, the Two Towers, and Goldmember are all going to make $200+ million dollars for their studios! Wow. I surprise myself! Maybe I should go into internet journalism and write witty and insightful columns about how everything relates to the Columbine shootings and the alienation of nonconformist high-schoolers... oh, wait. That position's filled.
Light a fire for a man and he'll be warm for a day. Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
"more accessible to kids and die-hard comic book buffs, who remember the great, golden age of Marvel Comics. I'm one of them, I was there."
Wait a second, how old is Katz? He was alive in the 50's and 60's? So THAT'S why he doesn't get any of this computer and geek stuff...
1. Katz is clueless when invoking the name of Joseph Campbell in his limp-wristed review of Spider-Man. Joseph Campbell and George Lucas consulted one another at length. Mr. Campbell spoke extensively on the eloquence of Lucas' vision and its importance as a contemporary myth.
2. If one is going to try and mythologize Spider-Man, try researching what myths it might reference. I don't dispute old Spidey is a mythic figure, but it would be nice to discuss that with some rigor. (Claiming that Marvel comic characters have a sense of civic duty does NOT constitute a myth. In fact, it is a downright boring claim even as the premise for a movie review.)
3. What's with the Lucas bashing? Perhaps he'd enjoy STAR WARS better if George added little comic book balloons to contain the dialogue and eliminated all the multi-syllable words so he didn't have to 'think' so much. And instead of digital sound effects, the battle scenes could just have subtitles that say "Zap!" and "Pow!".
4. 1950 called and they want their simplistic world-view back. The reason Spider-Man did well at the box office is because it is a predictable, violent teenage fantasy with a beautiful girl. Stop equating the box office stats with the meaning of life.
What I THINK Jon was trying to talk about was the demise of EC comics. In the late 40's and early 50's, they published a line of gruesome comics, most famous of which today is Tales from the Crypt. In the anticommunist paranoia of the 1950's, EC ended up shutting down under extreme pressure. There's a lot more to the story than that, and it's a very good story, but it ain't Marvel's story. Spidey was approved by the Comics Code Authority from day 1.
Excuse me, did JonKatz just call someone ELSE's work "pretentious and hyped"?! Has the whole world gone mad?
The great golden age of comics? Now you're milking a grumpy old man act? How many comic book companies' work could you buy in an average comic book store in that "golden age"? Marvel and DC and....? For a guy who writes page after page after page about how the ease of publishing online constitutes some kind of revolution, you're brushing off web comics pretty easily.
You were reading comics in 1962? Giving you the benefit of every doubt, that says you were born in 1957, and you're 45 now. So either you're lying through your teeth about this, or all your supposed identifications with youth culture are pretty suspect....
grep -ri 'should work'
I wish Jon Katz was a myth.
Because Ticket prices have gone up at theaters since the Phantom Menance was released. Using money as an indicator of movie popularity is just plain wrong. Actual tickets sold is a better indicator.
For the love of god, STFU. How many times do I have to hear about "the power of myth"? Why are we making god-stupid comparisons between Spider-Man and Star Wars? Yes, Spider-Man is simpler than Star Wars. Why the hell does that matter? Different stories, different complexities. STFU.
Shit, come ten years from now, which movies do you think I'll still be watching quite frequently?
Maybe I should go into internet journalism and write witty and insightful columns about how everything relates to the Columbine shootings and the alienation of nonconformist high-schoolers... oh, wait. That position's filled.
No, that position is open. The "Internet journalist who writes humorless and insipid columns about how everything relates to the Columbine shootings and alienation of nonconformist high-schoolers", well, that one is open.
leem
Two words. Frodo Lives!
These two words, I have seen everywhere. From the dark and shadowed grounds of subterranian mass transit systems. From the ceilings of college dorm rooms. From overpasses across the highway. To a small, weatherbeaten shelter along the Appalacian Trail.
Frodo Lives!
Even before the movie, I could've shouted these words anywhere, and have a high probability of being met with the same.
But, finally, 'No matter how tempted, they are, they do what they're supposed to do.'.. And this makes Spiderman and such accessible? How many people do you know who act like this? (And if you know one, which I highly doubt, I suggest you laud them with unrestrained praise.)
Frankly, I much prefer my characters to make mistakes, to not always act in the best interest of those around them.. to be lifelike. (Remember, kids, Frodo failed in his great task!)
But enough of myth and characters. You try to equate myth with money. This is surely foolhardy. Dare you to think that Titanic was filled with epic myth, because it sold well? How about, say, Apollo 13? Of course not. Spiderman sold well because it was the first quality action-packed blockbuster in a long, long time. To put it loosely, 'It didn't suck'.
Myth?
In years to come, parents won't read their children to sleep with Spiderman or Star Wars.
Yes, I've read it. And there are deeper themes in it if you look and are familiar with some of Doc Smith's less famous works, like the Skylark series.
One such theme is the deliberate evolution of humanity toward a superior form and mind. The original Skylark of Space is a lot more blatant in its exploration of eugenics, but it was written before WWII, before the Nazis made "eugenics" a dirty word.
Another theme looked at briefly is that of political science: how do you make an effective, good government for an interstellar empire? In the Lensmen stories, Doc Smith postulated that a good government would only be possible with an uncorruptible law enforcement and judiciary. (That's what the titular lensmen were in Civilization, BTW--incorruptible law enforcement and military authorities.)
---dragoness
But someone once said there were only three themes. Man vs. Man, Man vs. Nature and Man. vs Himself.
I do think we can get a bit more diverse than that, but in general, those three seem to fit everything.
and if I must assial the Slashdot community, I should at least check for typing errors.
My appologies.
And I'll bet 10 to 1 that the Matrix 2 will open far better than either of these two movies, and perhaps for the same reasons Katz espouses in this article.
Linux at home
It seems to me that even though it is highly possible that in the end all the hype will bring more money to the Star Wars franchise, that it was really the Matrix that stole the show with its grownbreaking effects and imaginative storyline the year The Phantom Menace was released.
Likewise it seems to me that the amazing camera angles effects, the easy-to-digest story, and nostalgic feeling from the comic has again stole the thunder from Attack of the Clones.
My conclussions on this is that even though Attack of the Clones as amazing special effects, there isn't really anything as revolutionary (in relative terms) to it, as compared to the original Star Wars. In other words, Lucas might indeed still have the force to make money, but the "grownbreaking" force I must say gone it is (as Yoda would have said).
"I'll bet Peter Parker's adventure surpasses the upcoming opening weekend of Attack of the Clones and teaches George Lucas something about the power and nature of myth."
How much do you want to bet John?
"Smokey, this isn't Nam, there are rules." -Walter
Nooo
Han is gay!
Wow! I completely agree That was my second thought upon leaving Spiderman as I walked into the snowing mountains. My first thought being "Wow! Its snowing! Yuk!" Expecting to walk away from Spiderman pleased by the hollywood flick I expected it to be, but never did I expect to get a deep sense of the thread of Christ in the story line. "What matters is a new creature." Spidey was definantly a new creature. His enlightenment gave him the option to choose and he chose wisely.
believing the big bang requires a certain amount of supernatural faith
Yeah. He admitted it after the fact tho, in the Eighties when all the Joseph Campbell claptrap got dragged out for fun. To be honest, if Star Wars is our Nibelungenlied, then we could do much, much worse.
Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
This forum is reduced to children screaming epithets at the unpopular guy as they steal his shoes behind the gym.
I expect this from the acne-ridden Talkback recluses at Aint-It-Cool-News that Kevin Smith slaughters so effectively in Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back, but from grown professionals? How old are you people, 12? 13?
Anyone else have a slight problem with a boy being called "Annie"? :)
It was a huge surprise to everyone that S-M made $114 million in it's first three days. The X-men, a comic which sells better than S-M, movie opened with $54 over it's first weekend. S-M's opening was so huge that it grossed more in it's first three days than most movies gross in their entire runs. Most of the predicitions for S-M topped out at $80 million, no slouch, admittedly, but no one expected this!
Predicting that those movies will make $200 million is easy. Which one's will make $300 million? $350 million? $400 million? Get within $25 million for each of those movies and I'll be impressed.
I never understood why everyone has it in for Jon Katz... until now. What a windbag. Seems like he thinks every bit of efluvium that drips from his keyboard should be a all-encompasing pontificating view of whatever idea he just encountered and now wants to make his own. Fuck, you'd think the guy would have read the Salon piece on this and known better than to write this tripe...
Well he did it again, another article managing to stir the hornets nest. How did Mr Katz ever have enough credibility to be able to post here on /. ?
Cmdr Taco and crew must be desperate to rack up page views?
This is Mr Katz's modus operandi ...
PopPolitics.com - Being Jon Katz
Why can't a movie just be for the joy of entertainment ?
Digit out!
"Well hello there Charlie Brown, you blockhead." -- Lucy Van Pelt
Read it all the way through before passing judgement.
Background knowledge of NASA celestial alignments is very helpful.
Star Wars "19.5" The Phantom Symbolism
(Original Page | Google Cache)
What's a second? An hour? A day?
It has much more to do with
the Earth's rotation than with cesium.
Although I have not seen it myself, the Hidden Fortress DVD comes with an interview with George Lucas in which he talks about how the movie inspired him to write Star Wars.
This Space Intentionally Left Blank
I enjoyed this article - about Star Wars, myth and common legends - much more than Katz's.
0 23 87791.html
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/05/10/10210
Matt
"Your work is both true and original. Unfortunately, the parts that are true are not original, and the parts that are original are not true." - Edgar Allan Poe
A typically American story, it's less pretentious and hyped than Star Wars
I'm sorry, but this is COMPLETELY false. There's probably 10 times the amount of advertisement for Spiderman as there is for Attack of the Clones. I don't know what drugs you're smoking, but don't pass it around... Must be brown acid.
I have to wonder, was exclude all stories by author implemented solely because of Katz? If it predates Katz, certainly it was a prescient decision.
At the very least, I would be willing to bet that half of all slashdot user accounts were created to eliminate Katz stories from showing up on the main page. I know mine was. Maybe this should be the next poll?
Did you create your slashdot account so that you could eliminate Katz stories?
*Yes
*No
*I don't have a slashdot account you insolent clod
*I just use cowboyneals account
And what are the percentages on which authors are excluded by slash user accounts? I'll bet Katz is winning by a landslide. 70%? 80%? More?
On a side note, you might wonder why I'm replying to a Katz article if I exclude his stories. Different computer, wasn't logged into slash as me.
Oh, also, I wanted to add a me too section. Quite a number of posts have pointed out an earlier slash article disagrees with Katz about the magic of myth bullcrap and points out the true origins of Star Wars in sci fi pulp fiction. To those posts I say: Me too!
// harborpirate
// Slashbots off the starboard bow!
Chewie is one big brutha!
.... of the myth in it! What is so mysterious ?
Take a look through Campbell's "The Hero With a Thousand Faces" and you realise that Luke Skywalker fits the mould to a 't'. The classic hero story has an amazing number of similarities between all cultures ... if you ignore it then people will mostly ignore your story ... rip it off and people will say it is profound and universal. And they'd be right. Even if you didn't know why.
As an exercise compare Luke Skywalker and Frodo Baggins. Both have lost their parents, must leave their home in a crisis, journey far, make great discoveries, return, but pay a price. If this makes you think that Lucas ripped off Tolkein then think of another hero. Say Neo from The Matrix. Also a man with no family, leaves his home in a crisis and makes great discoveries, then overocmes great evil to return but pays a price for doing this (dying and coming back from the dead), but must return to his people with the knowledge.
Read Campbell however, he is better at describing this than I am.
Bitter and proud of it.
In fact...
DOUBLE HA!
THe only good mythology is the Star Trek series. Everything else is rubbish.
Speaking of bets, I'll bet that when and if the Spider-Man franchise has spun its fifth movie, the franchise will be way more "elephantine" and clueless than STAR WARS is now.
Although I am disappointed in some of what Lucas has done with his franchise, let credit be given where due: the rarest achievement in cinema is the preplotted multi-part blockbuster film saga. Arguably THE GODFATHER was first, although Coppola could have quit at any time with honors. Most other series make it up as they go along. STAR WARS was the only prewritten SF saga until Peter Jackson came along with his Tolkien trilogy, and even then Jackson had the advantage of shooting everything at once and releasing at leisure.
Spiderman really needs web shooters. At some point he has to stop chasing someone cause *slaphead* doh! He forgot to refuel them because Mary Jane and her two friends were sunbathing in bikini's on the balcony again!
I've always remembered it being Gremlins (1984) that brought about the creation of PG-13.
I checked IMDB (second to last item), and they also had the same idea, though, they don't confirm it as fact.
I wonder where we could find a definitive source.
O Brother Where Art Thou may be based on The Odyssey, but claiming that makes it a great film is like saying that Strange Brew is brilliant simply because it's based on Hamlet. I found the film unintelligible.
And frankly, when it comes to literary allusions I'll take Lucas anyday. Remember Anakin's opening line to Padme in Episode I? Sounds to me like an allusion to Odysseus and the Sirens. If we catch the reference we know what Lucas signals throughout in various subtle ways (come on folks, that blanket is RED!): Anakin's attraction to Padme is what leads him to his destruction. It doesn't hurt that Anakin's story is also that of the quest for family, much like Homer's.
Barbs about films being "grossly misunderstood by the masses" fly a lot better when people have some clue about the films they're actually critiquing.
>>>> The opening shot with the sidekicks arguing as they leave the battle is an obvious pull by Lucas from this classic.
Bickering sidekicks have been around sinced shakespeare -- witness rosenkrantz and guildenstern. don't get me wrong -- I love the original Star Wars, but I am SO tired by pointy-headed artsty-fartsy types to make more of the movie than is there.
I love the way anything can be given intellectual street-cred by invoking an appropriately impressive construct; here, it's the Power of Myth. I read comic books when I was a kid: they were entertaining, and featured quite a number of spandex-clad women with unusually large breasts. I think this latter factor may have more to do with the enduring popularity of comics than the Power of Myth crowd would like to admit.
I occasionally wander into a comic shop, and I note that the large breasts trend is stronger than ever. Indeed, there seem to be some female characters who consist entirely of breasts; Cleavage-Girl (*) and Bra-Lass (*), for example. OK, sure, there are enduring mythic themes, but don't discount the power of the breasts.
(*) Yes, I made these up.
this makes me wonder about something im not sure why i didnt realize before... Luke's uncle, his father's brother, apparently. Yet, Anakin has no brothers...
Question
http://www.ironfroggy.com/
I don't know anything except this: in an interview I just saw, one of the movie's executives said AotC is opening on 25% fewer screens than *Spider-Man* did, so he wouldn't be surprised if AotC doesn't beat the new record.
Let's face it: people were disillusioned after TPM, and the merchandise didn't sell like expected, all because it didn't live up to the standards of the Trilogy. Consequently, theater owners, like the general public, don't expect that much from AotC; and its opening won't match that of *Spider-Man*, not just because it's on fewer screens, but because except for hardcore fans people are going to be in no hurry to see it opening weekend.
Let's face it: Lucas probably didn't write or direct all the aspects which made the Trilogy great. This is evident by his Bowdlerization of those very films later, with his lack of understanding about how a small thing like Greedo firing first could change a whole character arc, and with his over-reliance on digital effects. Lucas has proven with TPM, and reinforced with AotC, that the only thing he's good at is special effects. His characters, his dialogue, his stories--they just plain suck. Great films are plot and character driven, which is why *Spider-Man* succeeded since it has a flawed hero with real love and loss, and deals with essential themes like the responsibility we have to one another, even to strangers. But TPM and AotC are all special effects with no good dialogue and hollow characters. My gut tells me with the first two episodes of Star Wars we're seeing the "real" Lucas, doing too much of the writing and directing himself now that he's old and assured. With the Trilogy, he probably took a lot of good advice and input which helped make those films meaningful. Today, Lucas is no more than the ILM special effects guy. He's just not good for anything else anymore.
Chasing Amy
(We all chase Amy...)
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws"-Tacitus
For those of you who have been to college know (hopefully) that all writers know the three most intriguing aspects of human life are Religion Sex and Death. Advertisers know this also and it is evident in the ads we see everday. I won't actually see Spiderman till tomorrow but I can tell you that Star Wars is not Christian, there may be some parallels but the same holds true for most religions in the world. Even if you don't believe the Bible and the story of Christ are fact, it would be hard to argue that it is one of the most interesting stories seeing as how the Bible is the best selling book in the world and thanks to missionaries people everywhere have heard something about Jesus.
i know this will get modded down, but seriously! this place is more ignitable than a small gulf nation, scanning all these anti*.* posts you get the idea that people need their complaints advertised.
then again, I am sure this is a topic that is well covered elsewhere. I want to get back to reading what people think of Spiderman, this is a film I have been waiting for ever since the 'Secret Wars', where Peter gets the black alien costume....kewl!!!!
There's loving to hate someone, and then there's just plain abhoring them. Isn't there enough flame-bait on /. already without Katz?
Frankly, I much prefer my characters to make mistakes, to not always act in the best interest of those around them.. to be lifelike.(Remember, kids, Frodo failed in his great task!) Where did Frodo fail? He destroyed the ring and saved Middle Earth. That was his quest.
He certainly has a problem with it, and says so in the film in no uncertain terms.
*** Quantum Mechanics: The Dreams of Which Stuff is Made ***
Or he's a mutant wolverine with fingers of steel who can't ever have a casual beer with his pals.
and also loved another man's woman (Jean was always with Cyclops despite having feelings for Wolverine), little or no memory of his real past, no real home (because of the lack of a past), torn between the ideals of Prof. X and Magneto (realizing that he's basically hated by humans and occasionally reacting as Magneto would), and so on.
What made the Marvel comics was the depth of the characters, the ability to maintain subtle undertones and themes, and the ability of the reader to identify with the characters. Occasionally particular characters in series like X-Men tended to stand out more than others (especially to readers that identified with particular characters more than others), but overall very few characters, whether heros or villains, were particularly shallow or meaningless. Not to mention that Lucas doesn't have the storytelling ability or capability for dialogue that many of the better comic book writers had over the years (not that they were all great writers either).
And fuckKatz!
B lah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Bla h//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah/ / lah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Bla h//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah/ / lah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Bla h//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah/ / lah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Bla h//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah//Blah/ / fasddsffds/etc
His posts suck and Blah/Blah//Blah//BlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah
Now mod my post +5 like the other Katz and slashdot bashers!
Actually, Attack of the Clones has NO CHANCE AT ALL of outdoing SpiderMan, and the movie itself has nothing to do with it at all. George Lucas has told any theater that is not "THX Blessed" that they are NOT going to get AotC to show in their houses. Reason being, Lucas wants the audience to get the full effect of all the music, sound, and visual effects in his movie. How can he do this? Because he owns it all, and has enough control of everything to be able to make that demand. All hail the Overlord of the Sith!
I think the best analysis for Spiderman and the upcoming superhero movies (not to mention recent Star Wars mania) has little to do with the oft-quoted power of myth and the fact that gen-x'ers are now the target demographic because of their disposable income.
Hollywood knows this and has been greenlighting many projects that appeal to people who grew up in the 80s. Marvel has been trying to get into movies for ages with many failures like the Punisher, Corman's Fantastic Four, those lame Spiderman movies, etc. They just couldn't get a multi-million production going because no one wanted to drop that kind of money on tight-wearing superheroes.
I think we can thank Tim Burton for making the first successful and serious superhero film, but what is really going on has more to do with 80's kids getting out of school and landing jobs and starting families than some pendantic revival of the power of myth theories.
In episode II anakin meets his half brother Owen, who is Luke's uncle. He eve saysy the words "I;m your half brother Owen"! Did you guys even watch the fucking movie?