Microsoft vs. Modded Xboxes

hikeran writes "The Register has an article about how Xbox live service is now apparently banning Xboxes that have been mod chipped. Basically it seems this is one of the many uses of those unique id's used in Microsoft's software. Next up bannings for using foul language on Xbox live service?? Be careful what you say.. you may be playing with an Xbox Live admin..."

Comments

Um...so??

[davmoo]

Right or wrong, good move or bad, being as how its their service, Microsft can ban who ever the hell they want.

Re:Um...so??

[Anonymous Coward]

It's still lame. You have to have purchased an X-Box to have a modchipped box. They're legally within their bounds, but it certainly isn't morally cromulent.

Re:Um...so??

[runenfool]

I agree - but they should at least refund people's money or properly warn them in the first place.

Re:Um...so??

[mentin]

I agree - but they should at least refund people's money or properly warn them in the first place.

I think people who installed mod chips pretty well know what they were doing. Also, XBox 'box' probably contains lots of labels warning users that opening the case breaks any warranty.

Re:Um...so??

[cmeans]

It's probably in the EULA...but the only people who've bothered to read them...are still reading them.

Re:Um...so??

[nomadic]

Obligatory Penny Arcade reference.

Re:Um...so??

[rnturn]

``Also, XBox 'box' probably contains lots of labels warning users that opening the case breaks any warranty.''

I'm if we all look hard enough we'd find that everything that has a Microsoft logo on it also has a sticker that states: No User Serviceable Parts Inside.

Re:Um...so??

[dsanfte]

Well several Microsoft EULAs were submitted for entry into the Library of Congress but they couldn't afford to build a new wing of the building to store them in....

Re:Um...so??

[dwtinkle]

This is going to be the same situation as buying copy protected CDs. Microsoft should release a PCI version of the XBox, just drop Dead to Rights into my DVD-ROM drive, done.

Re:Um...so??

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

I think people who installed mod chips pretty well know what they were doing.

Until--as the artical pointed out--the xBox is sold 2nd-hand to some completely inocent person.

Certinaly won't do the xBox reputation any good if people are finding they can't get on-line, and that there's nothing they can do about it.

Sure--as the artical says--you may be forced to by a new box, more cash for the vendors. But would you still want an xBox after all than? Maybe a Playstation would seem like a better option the 2nd time 'round. Atleast you know you want get banned from anything.

Re:Um...so??

[scrain]

They can put all the labels they like on it, but the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act requires they prove that any problem is a result of damage caused by you. Just a sticker being broken doesn't count.

Re:Um...so??

[mentin]

Until--as the artical pointed out--the xBox is sold 2nd-hand to some completely inocent person.

Assume you are a "completely inocent person" who bought a 2nd-hand car. Later it turned out the previous owner drowned it, so it is all rusty inside, does not drive, breaks, etc. Would you blame the car manufacturer or the person you bought it from for this?

Why do you like to blame Microsoft for somebody selling crippled Xbox'es?

Re:Um...so??

[Boone^]

People who mod their XBoxes to run Linux are probably not playing games since they're too busy compiling kernels. Microsoft is trying to create an online game world that's void of cheating (something Valve hasn't done in the lifetime of Half-Life + mods), so it's just fine with me that I'm on a level playing field when I join a Mech Assault game. Modchips could open cheating, and I'm not in favor of aimbots working their way into games I enjoy.

I've been under the impression that MS wasn't going to let Modchipped XBoxes on the Live network for the past few months...

Re:Um...so??

[Anonymous Coward]

My favorite was a Microsoft mouse that had a sticker from their software police department. Something about how it should have come with a new system, or certificate of authenticity, or something.

I really wanted to call their hotline and say something like, "I got this Microsoft product from a friend, and I read this sticker, so I thought I should call and make sure I'm not pirating anything." and see how long it would take them to figure out that I had a mouse and they had no business putting that sticker on it.

Or do they actually not sell their mice, only license them?

Re:Um...so??

[domninus.DDR]

Even though you purchase an xbox, that doesnt bring them any profit. They lose at least 100 dollars on each xbox they sell, but make it up in licencing on games (this is how almost every game console works.) So even though you bought an xbox, if you play burned games you cost them money.

Re:Um...so??

[Junior J. Junior III]

You own the XBox, but they own the network you're connecting to with it, and they control the services.

Frankly, I think it's lame to ban modders, too. But here's the beauty of it -- if they piss off enough of their own customers, they'll lose marketshare. Maybe in their own minds they'll be losing undesirable customers and not care... until they end up all walking away and either moving on to a different platform or else using their modded XBoxen to build an underground, alternative gaming network. Now that'd be a hack!

Re:Um...so??

[Daetrin]

"Assume you are a "completely inocent person" who bought a 2nd-hand car. Later it turned out the previous owner drowned it, so it is all rusty inside, does not drive, breaks, etc. Would you blame the car manufacturer or the person you bought it from for this?"

That's a very different case. Someone who gets their XBox modded isn't causing inherent damage to the system. The XBox works just fine, but Microsoft is choosing to punish people for taking that action. That makes the issue much less clear-cut, and given the motives behind the people at Microsoft for instituting this policy, i would place the blame more on their heads.

Re:Um...so??

[pc486]

The analogy is incorrect. Microsoft didn't sell the Xbox, they sold Xbox Life which wont work on the modded Xbox, and without warning. I would blame Microsoft for selling me Xbox Live on a modded XBox. Even though I might get my money back it would be too much of a hassle to deal with calling in and sorting things out.

Re:Um...so??

[Ponty]

I'm down with what you're saying in principle, but it's just silly to think that the consumer should abide by certain perceived or actual rules that are a result from the pricing and marketing decisions of the vendor. They're in such separate domains that it's daffy to think that they should have any bearing on each other in the world or the mind of the consumer.

Re:Um...so??

[einhverfr]

Microsoft/Bungie makes the only good game for XBox anyway-- that is Halo. All the other games are sort of boring.

I really don't see X-Box being a long-term victory for Microsoft. It is a nice testing ground for Paladium-type technology and is quite probably a front for developing all sorts of other things, but I do not see them winning the console war anytime soon.

As for modded xboxes banned on XBox Live, I think that is fine, but as one is subscribing to a service, I would certainyl hope that refunds would be offered to people who bought the service and were unable to use if for any reason.

Re:Um...so??

[PurpleFloyd]

I've been under the impression that MS wasn't going to let Modchipped XBoxes on the Live network for the past few months...

Of course they wouldn't; it's common sense to try to control cheating for quality control purposes, if you're charging a fee for a service like Xbox Live.

The problem is that any Xbox online with a modchip is permenantly banned. Microsoft wants to have Xbox completely under their control. Remember that they take a significant loss on the console; the games make the money back. One of the main purposes of modchips on the Xbox is to read non-approved discs, and thus play pirated games. Another is to cheat. Both are Bad Things from Microsoft's point of view.

The Xbox-Linux users? Microsoft would probably want them to go away too, because they probably won't buy as many games as a console gamer. Plus, remember that according to Bill and his crew, Linux=Absolute, Total, Creeping Evil.

All in all, not too much of a surprise, but rather nasty nonetheless. What happens when a "banned" Xbox gets put up for sale used? One screwed-over end user. The funny thing is that this hurts Microsoft, as well. They will have to take the loss involved in producing another Xbox. So the moral of the story? Go out and buy as many Xboxes as you can, to bring the Evil Empire to its knees!

Re:Um...so??

[gnovos]

Assume you are a "completely inocent person" who bought a 2nd-hand car. Later it turned out the previous owner drowned it, so it is all rusty inside, does not drive, breaks, etc. Would you blame the car manufacturer or the person you bought it from for this?

Why do you like to blame Microsoft for somebody selling crippled Xbox'es?

That's different, though. In the first case the box is broken, period. In the second case, the box works fine, but Microsoft has decided to explicitly exclude your working box.

Re:Um...so??

[evilviper]

You know, I was thinking about buying an XBOX hoping to get a fairly cheap DVD/DivX/VCD/MP3/OGG player with good TV-out and a ($30) remote. The fact that it would end up costing Microsoft is all the more reason!!!

I'm still a little concerned by the heat, size, and wondering about the quality of the XBOX media player available.

Re:Um...so??

[grmoc]

I don't know why the heck the above comment was modde3d insightful.. It is missing the obvious point.

If someone sold you a secondhand car that worked -despite- having the seats replaced by the previous owner, would you be angry that the car dealer no longer allowes you to drive the car?

Just because an X-Box was modded has NO BEARING WHATSOEVER on whether or not it -works-.

I wouldn't blame Microsoft for not warranting the modified Xboxes. Fine.

What is bothersome is when an otherwise perfectly working (modified or not, makes no difference) Xbox no longer works because Microsoft has DECLARED that it won't.

Re:Um...so??

[rseuhs]

Well, as far as I could see, the XBox audience consists mostly of PC-users that love high MHz numbers and are used to pirate games.

So I guess there are a lot of modded XBoxes.

Actually, by now, there are so many prerequesites to use XBox-life, I would be surprised of more than a few percent of XBox-owners will buy it. The majority doesn't have broadband and the few broadband owners are - you guessed it - even more likely to have modded their XBox.

This is certainly a stupid move from Microsoft and another nail into XBoxes coffin.

Re:Um...so??

[gl4ss]

*** What is bothersome is when an otherwise perfectly working (modified or not, makes no difference) Xbox no longer works because Microsoft has DECLARED that it won't. ***

well, if you haven't ran into it before with ms products, you're one lucky SOB ;)

(98, me issues for example, vendors can't provide checked drivers for the first, but drivers certified for the second should work on the first, meaning no extra work, but ms declares that is not the case, iirc).

+8 anti ms, -27 bad sarcastic +4 funny = +666

Re:Um...so??

[elveu]

using their modded XBoxen to build an underground, alternative gaming network. Now that'd be a hack!

what would be even better is if you required a modchip to play. now that would really piss them off

Re:Um...so??

[poot_rootbeer]

Someone who gets their XBox modded isn't causing inherent damage to the system.

Depends on your definition of "damage". Microsoft would certainly argue that by changing the behavior of the firmware, you've damaged the machine's ability to do certain things.

Re:Um...so??

[iocat]

If I bought a car intending to seal all its leaks and turn it into a submarine, but then I discovered I couldn't, or it didn't work, because the engine needed oxygen, I don't think you could say I bought the car under false pretenses. Not 100% analagous, but you see the point. Microsoft doesn't sell the Xbox in the US for any purpose other than playing North American region games. If you wanted to do something else with it, that's your problem.

Also, it's not as if the modder is banned forever, only the modded Xbox. I think it's a lame policy, but regardless of its lameness, it does seem well within Microsoft's rights to do it. (Although they better be offering refunds if people can't use the service.)

The frustrating thing, to me, is that most mod chippers talk up a "run Linux, do hobbiest development, play other region DVDs" game, and then simply play lots of pirated games. To many people that gives Microsoft the moral high ground in its battle against harwdare hackers. If less people used mod chips for piracy, Microsoft (and others) might be less inclined to go after them.

A good example is Nintendo, which has traditionally turned a totally blind eye to region-defeating measures, while rigorously enforcing anti-piracy policies.

Re:Um...so??

[Wakko Warner]

if you play burned games you cost them money.

I can't believe this story has engendered 750 pissed-off slashbot comments already. You're absolutely right, it's costing them money. It's also against the law. Why the hell would anyone have a problem with Microsoft banning modded XBoxes from their network? I would really like to hear a rational argument from the one or two people out there who actually mod their XBox so they can do something other than steal things.

- A.P.

Re:Um...so??

[DunbarTheInept]

A better analogy would be buying a second hand car from someone and finding that I'm getting pulled over by the police all the time because the car is in police records a having once been used in a hit-and-run. Then I talk to the police to get things resolved, show them the proof that I bought it at a time after the hit-and-run occurred, and yet they refuse to remove the ABP out on my car and I cannot legally use it on the roads. You're damn straight I'm going to be mad at the police for this, and rightfully so, in ADDITION to being mad at the guy who sold me the car without disclosing this problem.

Re:Um...so??

[jez9999]

People get tarred with the same brush all the time. It's not just you. Here in the UK, my car insurance is £1500 ($2000?)/year. Because i'm a 19 year old male.

Re:Um...so??

[Minna Kirai]

No, you're thinking Terry Colon. The styles are quite different, apart from both using outlines digitally filled with solid color, then shrunken for publication.

In the waning days of Suck he started getting work in some mass media-printed stuff (as did the backup suck arist, PB), and is occasionally seen in Time Magazine today.

Censorship

[Trusty Penfold]

bannings for using foul language on Xbox live service

Is this bad because it is Microsoft? Or because your 5-year-old's 1st ammendment rights are being violated?

Re:Censorship

[n08ody]

the 5th ammendment says "Congress shall not ...inhibiting free speech"

Since when is Microsoft the U.S. Congress?

Re:Censorship

[anotherone]

the guy in the article is saying "what if". It's not happening now. READ -> COMPREHEND -> POST

Re:Censorship

[Cato the Elder]

Of course, it's worth noting that the article says nothing about banning for using foul language. It's what I like to call a "story troll" like the headline about GM corn yesterday.

Re:Censorship

[plague3106]

Since free speech is usually considered a basic human right, it doesn't really matter who is inhibiting it. Just because the first amedment says the gov't can't do it, doesn't mean that anyone else can.

Re:Censorship

[aardvarkjoe]

READ -> COMPREHEND -> POST

Majority of /. users skip step 2. Sometime they don't even bother step 1. :)

Yeah, and in this case the /. editors failed to do it as well.

Re:Censorship

[Simon Garlick]

No law degree for YOU!

Re:Censorship

[ninewands]

Quoth the poster:

Just because the first amedment says the gov't can't do it, doesn't mean that anyone else can.

Look at THAT ... WRONG in ONE!

A non-governmental entity can impose any restriction on speech that they want to at their private functions/on their private property/on their private gaming network ...

Write this on the back of your hand so you don't lose it ... the Constitution ONLY restricts the power of the US Government and the governments of the several States ... it haqs NO power over private entities.

BTW, IAAL

Re:Censorship

[revoemag]

On the internet: http://www.xbox.com/LIVE/connect/legal-coc.htm

Re:Censorship

[grammar fascist]

READ -> COMPREHEND -> POST -> ??? -> PROFIT!

(Sorry, it just came out...)

Re:Censorship

[dcgaber]

If you are a lawyer, than certainly you know that the Fed Govt has the power to enforce Constitutional rights when it interferes with Interstate commerce such as the civil rights cases (Hearts of Atlanta, or something with that name. Prohibbited discrimination at motels as that would affect interstate commerce). So while not applicable in this particular instance, the Constitution can be applied to private parties, and has succesfully (with the 14th amend).

Their rules

[ruszka]

I don't really see this as such a bad thing... My ISP does not support home networking, so they will not give help until the network is taken down and proven to not be causing the problem.. Microsoft's support team was not trained to deal with modded xboxes, so I can see why there would be a rule to not giving support to those with the mods done.

Re:Their rules

[runenfool]

Did you read the article? It essentially states that people are being permanently (FOREVER!!!) banned from XBox live (which they paid for), using the Xbox, which they paid for, if it had a mod chip installed.

Re:Their rules

[mentin]

Did you read the article? It essentially states that people are being permanently (FOREVER!!!) banned from XBox live (which they paid for), using the Xbox, which they paid for, if it had a mod chip installed.

You are wrong: people were not "permanently (FOREVER!!!) banned from Xbox live". Only their modded Xbox'es were.

They are not "using the Xbox, which they paid for", they are using modded Xbox. Makes the difference, does not it?

Re:Their rules

[Aheinz1]

There's a big difference between saying "We won't help you if it breaks" and "You can no longer use what you paid for because we said so." MS is guilty of the latter.

You're making it look like MS is going back on their word when in fact the person who is using the modded XBox is at fault. When you agree to MS's Live TOS then violate it, it's perfectly within Microsoft's rights to ban you.

Re:Their rules

[BrookHarty]

Microsoft's support team was not trained to deal with modded xboxes, so I can see why there would be a rule to not giving support to those with the mods done.

You dont turn away customers because you dont support them, you still collect the monthly fee and turn them away for support. Whats next M$ saying anyone with a linux partition cant download service packs for windows?

PS. your a troll.

Re:Their rules

[Guppy06]

"They are not "using the Xbox, which they paid for", they are using modded Xbox. Makes the difference, does not it?"

Silly me. Here I thought they bought the Xbox before getting it modded. How was I to know that 100% of the modded Xboxes out there were stolen from the local Wal-Mart?

Re:Their rules

[Phouk]

Insightful?! This completely misses the topic at hand! The problem wasn't about Microsoft not giving support for a modded XBox, it's about Microsoft actively shutting down their network services for such a box, forever. Quite a difference, I'd say...

Re:Their rules

[poot_rootbeer]

You dont turn away customers because you dont support them, you still collect the monthly
fee and turn them away for support.

But we're talking about an online service here, where every additional user can add additional complexity to support and troubleshooting.

It could (in theory) only take one user with a bad mod to infect the entire commuinity and ruin the fun for everyone.

PS. your a troll.

P.S. You're childish and barely literate.

Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

You'd think Microsoft didn't have the right to refuse service to anybody they wanted to, especially people they thought could potentially ruin the service.

Slashdot uses the same rationale to justify its IP banning and $rtbl'ing. But hey, it's "M$", so it must be wrong!

Re:Wow

[Mike Schiraldi]

It's wrong when Slashdot does it too. I don't think you'll find many comments, other than from editors, in favor of $rtbl.

Re:Wow

[Stephen VanDahm]

Is $rtbl'ing real? I've heard enough people complaining about it that I can't believe that there isn't at least some merit to their claims, but I've never seen the editors admit to having implemented it. Has anyone confirmed that this is built into the Slashcode? Have the editors said anything about it?

Steve

Re:Wow

[AftanGustur]

You'd think Microsoft didn't have the right to refuse service to anybody they wanted to, especially people they thought could potentially ruin the service.

I don't see how people who want to pay microsoft for a particular service "could potentially ruin the service." ?? All they have done is to increase the capabilities of the hardware they have payed for ?

Re:Wow

[Babbster]

Yes indeed. And one of the capabilities that they've added (which is not present on a stock Xbox) is the capability to run unlicensed code. As soon as that capability is added, one of Microsoft's primary blocks against cheating on Xbox Live is removed, thus potentially ruining the service when people inevitably start cheating.

It still works...

[doofsmack]

Just disable your mod chip before you use Live. Some people have been reporting that it works fine for them. Be careful though - if you forget to disable it before logging in, your box will be banned permanently.

Re:It still works...

[xenode]

Knowing how things always seem to happen, lets see how long it is before someone comes up with a way to make your X-Box report a different ID than it's original one, giving those people who got banned many extra chances.

Re:It still works...

[Bios_Hakr]

I'd prefer to see someone do an ID sweep _with_ a modded XBOX in order to ban _all_ the legit XBOXen. Hell, you probably don't need an XBOX to do it. Just sniff the line and find the portion responsible for the ID code. Then set up a PC to generate those types of packets with different ID codes.

I'm sure they use some form of encryption on the network side, but _strong_ encryption would add a lot of delay.

Once they see that 90% of their network is banned, they'll freak. They will try to ban the IP generating the packets, then the entire subnet. Pretty soon, IRC will distribute the packet generator to thousands of geeks looking, not to kill, but to prove that banning modded XBOXen is stupid.

Re:It still works...

[Daetrin]

I can already see the market for switch boxes that on setting A turn on the mod chip but disconect the ethernet cable, and on setting B turn off the mod chip and reconnect the cable, so you can't accidently forget to kill the chip before logging in.

Re:It still works...

[Joe Rumsey]

Seems like the ideal solution, if you have an actual physical switch for the mod chip, would be to mount it such that it physically blocks the ethernet port when it's turned on.

Re:It still works...

[Woko]

Thats a brilliant solution. Of course MSFT may just have the FBI knocking on your door as a potential terrorist, but its still a great idea.

Re:It still works...

[psych031337]

I'll volunteer. I am well out of the FBI's reach.

Ceterum censeo microsoft esse delendam. It had to be said.

Re:It still works...

[NetJunkie]

Go ahead. Know how to break the Kerberos authentication?

Re:It still works...

[Abcd1234]

Just a note, strong encryption doesn't necessarily add a lot of delay. Symmetric key encryption, like AES, is *very* fast (can be done on the order of GB/s with dedicated hardware) and is (assuming no breakage in the algorithm) quite secure. So, the latency added is probably not that bad, especially relative to the latency induced by the network itself.

This is good and bad

[Sourtimes]

I think this is good on the side that hopefully it will keep out rogue players that want to write their own code, or hack a game for cheats.
Although it is bad because I have a mod chip. Although I have played online with it, turned off of course.

I am sure they will continue to try and fight it, but like everything good luck on fighting piracy/modding, if it uses 1010010's then its hackable.

Level playing field

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't this just help maintain the integrity of the game play? Can't modded X-Boxen be altered to give unfair advantages by changing the software like players did in Unreal?

Re:Level playing field

[Mark (ph'x)]

This depends on the game, and the level of 'trust' the server has in the clients.

In the good 'ol days, the clients replicated to everyone what they were doing, and everyone trusted them implicitly. (Yes I did jump 200ft in the air, honest.)

Later with the server being the authority for much of the game state (a la Unreal) it made it harder to implement obvious hacks (such as your character running faster, taking no damge when told, etc). Hacks still abounded though in the form of wallhacks (see players though walls), and aimbots (autoaim)... these things being client-side of course and impossible for the server to know about.

Decent games these days, such as UT2003 which has built in anti-cheat from the CSHP guy keeps mucho things on the server. Many effects and such are replicated to the client to be simulated proxys and actors such as an enemy player are only replicated if they are relevant (ie: the player should be able to see it). This works well against wallhacks, as the client only is told where an enemy is if it should be able to see it.

Unfortunately we have a situation similar to copy protection, there is allways going to be ways to work around... at least now its not as simple as dumping the unrealscript sdk and modifying some variables.

Still the more objects that the server has authority on the better. Your hacked client interface might tell you that you have 900 rockets left, but the server knows better ;)

Re:microsoft isnt the smartest...

[FordPrfct]

Well, if you had read the article, you would see that there are quite a few non-modded boxes that are experiencing the same problem as the modded ones. They are pissing off a lot more than the pirates here.

Modding should be banned!

[eMilkshake]

As an xbox live subscriber, I take comfort that the 13-year old blowing me to bits (and bits and bits) hasn't downloaded hack o' the week to beat me. There are so many ways to subvert online gaming it really is getting tiresome. So, preventing modded boxes is an effective way of prevention.

Btw, users can nark on anyone for foul language -- it doesn't have to be caught by an admin. (Again, foul language seems to mainly come from 13-year olds who think it makes them sound older.)

Re:Modding should be banned!

[tc]

I would think differently about this if it was a FREE service, but it's not. I am paying to play these games online, I expect to do as I please.

Why should you expect to do as you please? If you're disrupting the service for others, they have every right to ban you - pay or no pay. If I buy a ticket to a movie, that doesn't give the right to act as a please in the theater - the management could quite reasonably throw me out if I distrupted the experience of other paying customers.

Indeed, one of the things you are paying for when you subscribe to Xbox Live is precisely that it is a controlled service. You are paying for a reasonable expectation that people are not going to cheat, or be consistently abusive. You know that when you sign up.

Re:Modding should be banned!

[imr]

It's funny how we are all different in our ways of doing the same activity.
Personnally i don't care if anyone is cheating to seem better. To me I just face someone better than me and it's part of the game. Wether it's one of those talented 13 years old kids or one of those untalented script users don't make a difference. More challenge, more fun.
On the other hand, there's just no way i'm going to a server with lag. That's my limit.

As to the foul langage, they can cancel xbox live here in France. There is just about everyone who use foul langage. So gamers!
Picture yourself the french soldiers of the "holy graal" arguing with the redmond official about getting kicked for
farting in the admin's general direction"
Anyway nobody will buy it here, it's too expensive, so that settle the matter.

Re:Modding should be banned!

[Daetrin]

Modding should be banned? But i haven't even gotten to be a moderator even once yet! I want at least one chance to use some mod points before they get rid of the system :(

*goes and cries in the corner*

Re:Modding should be banned!

[slantyyz]

If I buy a ticket to a movie, that doesn't give the right to act as a please in the theater - the management could quite reasonably throw me out if I distrupted the experience of other paying customers.

If only that were true. I have yet to see someone get the boot from a cinema for yapping on a cell phone, using a laser pointer or heckling the movie. Buying that ticket may not give some idiot the right to be disruptive, but there's nothing stopping them either.

That's why I don't have too many issues with the XBox live policy. I just wish cinemas had idiot-detectors.

Re:Modding should be banned!

[tc]

Two points:

1: They are if they might be cheating.

2: Read the post I was replying to. The poster was complaining about the possibiliy of being banned for being abusive to other subscribers.

Re:Modding should be banned!

[Tokerat]

The way it should be:

Microsoft implements a disk checksuming feature which ensures the copy of the game you are playing on your modded X-Box is authentic according to their database. Also included is a detection feature such as the one currently employed to detect the mod chips. If the checksuming hardware has been modified, deny the user. If the mod doesnt' affect checksumming and the validity of the games can be confirmed, allow the user to play. Everyone is happy.

The way it really is:

MS doesn't want to piss of content providers by allowing region coding to be broken. Nor is it willing to show that it will tollerate bending the rules of the DMCA, for any reason, valid or otherwise. Nor is MS smart enough to come up with a good plan the first time and by the time anyone realizes, it's way too late.

The way it should be:

Microsoft should work with those interested in using their device to do other things than play video games. For once there is actual geek intrest in a Microsoft product (a hardware one at that), and especially interesting is there is intrest from the Linux community. This is their chance to make some bucks of the people they fear are going to run them into the ground. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Microsoft should also make changes to accomodate those who wish to import content from other areas of the world for their own use, and usually pay top dollar to do so. Seriously, what exactly IS the big deal with me playing some awsome video game which was only released in Japan?

The way it really is:

I'll be buying a PlayStation 2 and a GameCube.

Re:Modding should be banned!

[marauder404]

Disk checksumming? You gotta be joking! Surely you mean that Microsoft should have come up with some sort of encrypted disk format that would cryptographically ensure that the code is signed and deemed authentic before running it.

Oh, wait ... they already did! Modded Xboxes allow your Xbox to run unsigned code, as every piece of Xbox software you can buy from the store has been digitally signed by Microsoft's key. That is the most important feature behind Xbox modifications. Once you can run unsigned code, the hardware already does the decryption for you and you can simply copy games straight from the DVD onto your drive by writing a program that does that for you. No need to tangle with the encryption on the disk.

Re:Modding should be banned!

[Babbster]

You should definitely buy a PS2 and a Gamecube. You will then quickly find out that neither of them is any more able to play imported games than the Xbox.

Personally, I think that region coding is stupid, especially in the US - why especially in the US, you might ask? Because we have a significantly larger number of people in this country who speak languages other than the accepted "national" language.

That being said, modchips aren't around to simply allow playing imported games. Their purposes go much further than that, extending into the ability to read burned discs and run unsigned software. That latter ability is the reason I'm happy (as an XBL subscriber) that Microsoft is preventing the use of modded consoles on their network.

It also seems relevant to point out that being banned from the Xbox Live service does NOT mean that you can't continue to use your modded console to run Linux and the rest. You can still do so. Hell, you can even play your games online if you choose (at least games with the system link option) via the Gamespy Tunnel.

My last comment on this subject (I've already replied too much tonight :]) is this: Anyone who modded their console knew a long time ago that there was a possibility their console was not going to work with the Xbox Live service. This would particularly be true amongst those with "legitimate" purposes for modding such as the homebrew folks working on Linux, media players and the like, who have discussed this at length in the past. Therefore, if someone blew $50 on Xbox Live, they were, in my opinion, taking a risk and Microsoft bears no responsibility for any loss incurred doing so when they couldn't get on XBL.

I do hope, however, that the people who were mistakenly banned - assuming they're telling the truth - get taken care of in a timely fashion so that they can get the service they paid for.

Re:Modding should be banned!

[Tokerat]

...here's a stretch, but what about "homebrew" developer kits?

Re:Modding should be banned!

[Tokerat]

You should definitely buy a PS2 and a Gamecube. You will then quickly find out that neither of them is any more able to play imported games than the Xbox.

I'm aware, I just hate Microsoft. ;-)

Hell, you can even play your games online if you choose (at least games with the system link option) via the Gamespy Tunnel.

Ahh, I was not aware of that. Cool.

Therefore, if someone blew $50 on Xbox Live, they were, in my opinion, taking a risk and Microsoft bears no responsibility for any loss incurred doing so when they couldn't get on XBL.

Oh, absolutely. My point was wouldn't it be nice if this was accomodated for, i.e. doesnt' matter if your system is modded as long as you are playing a valid, licensed game?

Re:Modding should be banned!

[Tokerat]

Should MS sell a Linux version of the XBox for $500 since it won't be used for gaming?

I hope you are serious with this statement, because think about this. $500 for a web server/mail/ftp server? Custom PVR? Anything else that Linux can do? And when you get bored in the middle of the night, watch a movie or play a game (possibly not online but oh-well)?

Hell, that's almost cheaper than building your own hardware. And it's not like Linux costs anything...

But it'll never happen. You gotta admit all this "MS should accomodate" sutff I've been posting sure sounds good but the reality is even if they found a way to work it in their advantage, they'd never do it. Even if it ran Windows only, and even if if cost $1000.

Which sucks balls, but that's reality I guess. :-\

Re:Modding should be banned!

[Quixadhal]

There are lots of ways to prevent subversion of online gaming...

1) Store all pertinant game data on the server and don't allow it to be altered except through server-side processes.

2) Publish your API so anyone who wants to can make a client and make use of any legitimate data which is exported by the server.

3) Use ENCRYPTION! Blizzard has whined for ages about how evil people are for picking apart their precious protocols and figuring out how to hack them. If the morons would establish an SSH tunnel between the server and the client, they wouldn't have that problem.

You will always make mistakes and players will always find ways to abuse them until you fix them. That's life. But designing the protocol as wide-open and then refusing to detail it is just begging some high-schooler with too much free time to hack it apart.

To bring this back to the Xbox... Each unit presumably has a unique ID number. That should have been a public/private keypair instead. Then all traffic could have been tagged or tunneled via the public key.

Re:Modding should be banned!

[TheLink]

Your suggestions don't work for hacks which allow the player to see what the client program must see, but should be kept hidden for game play reasons.

Microsoft's method of limiting what a player can do with their hardware does work somewhat.

That said barring issuing unique certificates to players and making them pay for it (you cheat, cert revoked and you never get a new one), it could be hard to cut cheating to insignificant amounts - hackers could theoretically still subvert the program. But by forcing an O/S to not run programs that don't pass signature checks correctly it means that hackers may have to subvert the O/S as well which could be more difficult. One would have to change the base root certificate which might be possible, or not. But if it's embedded in the hardware (CPU, etc) and not possible to change that would be difficult. Of course that would mean if someone screws up the root keys/certs, tons of hardware would be affected.

Re:Modding should be banned!

[ivan256]

Microsoft implements a disk checksuming feature which ensures the copy of the game you are playing on your modded X-Box is authentic according to their database.

You do realize that checksuming the disk would require reading the entire disk, right? Do you have any idea how long that would take? It would be great for customer satisfaction. Xbox Live, now with 20 minute load times!

MS doesn't want to piss of content providers by allowing region coding to be broken. Nor is it willing to show that it will tollerate bending the rules of the DMCA, for any reason, valid or otherwise.

If this was true, why wouldn't they just do something like what DirecTV does and actualy disable the hardware?

There aren't many things that I typically defend Microsoft for, but I think they're doing the right thing here. You can mod you box, but then you can't use it with their online service. What's wrong with that?

Re:Modding should be banned!

[Tokerat]

I get the point. Dont' buy Sony, or I contribute to the RIAA/DMCA problem.

I'll buy a used one. At least that way, Sony doesn't get any more money than they already did. (Goes for games, too.)

WTF.

Re:Modding should be banned!

[Tokerat]

You do realize that checksuming the disk would require reading the entire disk, right?

Not nessisarily, refer to my other reply somewhere in this thread regarding sectional checksums. Basically a scheme for the XBL server to query for specific sector-sector checksums at random. Coudl even happen durring disk-idle times while the game is playing to prevent some kind of "swap-for-a-cheat-disk" method.

Either way someone will crack the mod detection on XBL anyways, it's a never ending battle, no matter which way you slice it.

If this was true, why wouldn't they just do something like what DirecTV does and actualy disable the hardware?

MS do something logical? Ummmm ;-)

There aren't many things that I typically defend Microsoft for, but I think they're doing the right thing here. You can mod you box, but then you can't use it with their online service. What's wrong with that?

Well, nothing much, I suppose. My point with all this is it would have been nice is MS had taken a friendlier approach to it. What's wrong with modding my box if the games I play online are checked for validity and fairness anyways?

Re:Modding should be banned!

[ivan256]

Not nessisarily, refer to my other reply somewhere in this thread regarding sectional checksums. Basically a scheme for the XBL server to query for specific sector-sector checksums at random. Coudl even happen durring disk-idle times while the game is playing to prevent some kind of "swap-for-a-cheat-disk" method.


This would be very unreliable if a cheat only changed a few bytes, which is very common with cheats. There would be other ways around it too. Hijacking the checkum routine and calculating the checksum based on the real data for instance. It also wouldn't stop things like locked memory value cheats which are popular, and don't require any changes to the media, and could be done with just a firmware change.

What's wrong with modding my box if the games I play online are checked for validity and fairness anyways?

If the box is modified there's no sure way to guarantee fairness. Even with checksums, what if you modded the box to calculate the checksums from the real disk in a second drive. It's just IDE. I think the heavy handed aproach is the only real way to stop cheaters, and as a nice side effect it punishes people for doing something they have other problems with. Seriously, if somebody doesn't like it they can just go get a PS2 instead.

Re:Modding should be banned!

[Tokerat]

True, it's just unfortunate that some have to er.."suffer" because people need to feel l33t and play invincible...

Possibly server-side checks to game anomolies? I.E. This didnt' quite happen as expected, so check the following disk sectors for modifications, check firmware, check for second drive, etc. But now we're talking more bandwidth and server power, and staying ahead fo that game could quickly become unmanageable.

It would be great to see some kind of creative system for preventing cheats while allowing "fair" mods, however, and to see what cheaters would do to try to try and exploit it. Almost a game in itself. ;-)

Re:Modding should be banned!

[hyphz]

Hey, you want to complain about region coding - consider the plight of people who live in Asia but not in Japan.

In most cases, these folks get Japanese consoles that can only run Japanese games, in Japanese. They then get Japanese games, with stickers on the front saying "this is an official release, ignore the 'for Japan only' bit in the license". Sometimes there will be a translated manual in Chinese and English slipped into the box.

But the entire game will be in Japanese. NONE of the big consoles have ANY support for games in Chinese, Urdu, or in any number of languages you might care to name. And - I HAVE HEARD BUT NOT CONFIRMED THAT people in Australia speak English but still get Japanese games because they're considered to be in the Asia region - and they can't buy the English language ones because their consoles are Japanese and won't play them. (If this is true it would certainly explain why their government nearly outlawed region locking at one point.)

In other words, for these people, EVERY major console game is IN A FOREIGN LANGUAGE. EVERY SINGLE ONE.

Oh, and do I need to mention that until recently people in Europe were forced to play games 20% slower than everyone else because game manufacturers refused to support 60hz PAL displays?

Good!

[spectecjr]

That'll get rid of all the cheaters, pirates and Linux users.

Hah!

Re:Good!

[jglow]

A cheat-free online game experience is something most people I know would give their first-born for.

you must know some sick, sick people.

Re:Good!

[xenode]

It'll help keep cheaters off XBox Live. Up until someone comes up with a way to report a different "unique" ID, and a way to make it not detect the mod chips.

Re:Good!

[stratjakt]

>> Up until someone comes up with a way to report a different "unique" ID, and a way to make it not detect the mod chips

Just like the keygens for Half Life and Quake 3, right?

Oh wait. Unique keys. With a central database containing all valid keys, and associating them with a MAC address.

More likely, you might see rogue servers set up, which would fit the bill for things like Unreal Championship.

Personally, I'm not excited about the idea of paying a subscription to play a game that'd benefit perfectly fine from a decentralized, P2P method of online play, like UC or some sports titles. There's no need for an online community. I hate online communities, they're full of idiots. Just look at this one.

Hopefully MSFT and Sony realize this, and start releasing some games that allow me to just connect to my kid brother and beat the crap out of him from 500 miles away, without having to 'log in' and pay a bill.

Until then, I'll just keep filling my shelves with nice free pirated single player games, and not bat an eye at the xbox lives policies.

As for this 'news' that never was - it's been known for a long, long, long, long time within the mod world that xbox live would not allow chipped consoles.

Re:Good!

[BigJimSlade]

A cheat-free online game experience is something most people I know would give their first-born for.

you must know some sick, sick people.

No worries... these people aren't likely to have a child anytime soon.

Good!

[Chester K]

It'll help keep cheaters off XBox Live. A cheat-free online game experience is something most people I know would give their first-born for.

And as fair as the implication that Microsoft banning people who've modded their XBox, as soon as you modded your XBox, stop whining and just take some responsibility for your actions. It's not like you didn't know full well what you were getting yourself into when you cracked open the case and started messing around with a soldering iron.

It's MS's Service.

[A Commentor]

If you don't like MS's terms, just don't use it... Vote with your money... don't buy the XBOX, don't buy XBoxLive...

Re:It's MS's Service.

[Phosphor3k]

No no no! Buy the Xbox, just dont buy anything else, games, controller ect. Use it as a DVD player(unless your anti-MPAA, no-one here is anti-MPAA right? :) Use it as a linux terminal! Remember, they take a hit on the hardware. Enough small hits, and you get, well, alot of small hits. Every bit helps!

Re:It's MS's Service.

[tunah]

That should be... Vote with your money, buy the XBOX, don't buy XBoxLive.

Re:It's MS's Service.

[A Commentor]

Or better yet, buy 2... after all M$ is counting on the ammount of games you have to make a profit, they are losing money on the consoles.

So if the equipment costs MS $300-$350, if you buy it for $199, they are losing $100-$150 on the XBox console. If you don't buy it they just lost $300-$350... It just sits on the shelf and they lost more money. Also when you buy it, it provides MS with the numbers they want to present to game makers. The more 'units sold' MS can boast to the game maker, the more software and 'exclusive' titles they will be able to get for the box, which will in turn cause more 'real' customers to buy more XBoxes (and games). Each unit sold allows MS to get to 'Critical Mass'.

I still don't have a passport account because I don't want to add to the 'critical mass' for their Passport system. Even though it means I can't follow crash reports that I send to them. I think they are 'illegally' tying their bug reporting system to their passport accounts just to get the 'critical mass' needed for developers/websites to decide to support the passport system. It would be just as easy for them to give me a unique tracking number for each crash I submitted so that I could track the problem, but of course they wouldn't gain anything (new account, more personal information, etc) from it.

Re:It's MS's Service.

[ewhac]

...Except that, if I own an XBox, and I want to play online, I must subscribe to XBox Live. I can't sign up with AT&T Broadband or Speakeasy.net or Earthlink or Covad; Microsoft won't let me. It's either their service, or tough shit.

Sounds like I can either vote for the democratically elected leader, or not vote at all. Yeah, that's competing on the merits, all right...

Schwab

Re:It's MS's Service.

[gvonk]

Yeah, and it's not like you could use Gamespy Arcade for free!

Nosirree, you'd rather prance about in your fanboy-ness...

Personally, I appreciate that MS is controlling the user experience so much. That makes it that much higher quality.

Oh, and don't compare the online play system for a console to elections in Iraq. That's just stupid. There's three major console systems, each with a good chunk of market share, in good competition with each other, each with plans for online play, two of which have working online systems.

Re:It's MS's Service.

[poot_rootbeer]

No no no! If you want a DVD player, buy a DVD player. Cheap ones that you can crack region encoding on can be had for as little as $60.

If you spend $200 to be able to play DVDs when you could have spent a third of that instead, just to hurt Microsoft's profits a tiny amount, well, you're dumb.

Re:It's MS's Service.

[Phosphor3k]

Yeah, cause they look at console sales and not game sales, right?

OT: ok

[Zeebs]

What does using 82's have to do with any thing??

Ok ok I'm going I'm going, just put the gun down.

The summary isn't really fair.

[kaosrain]

I'm all for modchips in Xboxes, it's one of the large reasons I use them (I helped work on them before the protection scheme got cracked.) However, I believe it is fair for Microsoft to ban the use of modchips on their Xbox Live service. We all know that Microsoft loses money on their Xboxes, and the regain it with the games. If a player is costing them money, I don't believe they have a right to complain when they can't utilize another (in my opinion) underpriced service. Further, this won't stop everyone, as dual-BIOS setups (one with the regular BIOS and one with the modified chip) for the Xbox have been around for ages.

Re:The summary isn't really fair.

[packeteer]

I heard from a saleman that they only claim to lose money. He said that in any business there is no way they will actually lost money by selling something but they just use it as an excuse as to why they arent making money. I think Microsoft is not doing a bad thing if they dont want xboxes to be modded and used with the live service but i wont buy an Xbox just because its not even that good of a pice of hardware. You can buy a barebones pc at twice the speed which is nice if your using the xbox as a server.

Re:The summary isn't really fair.

[packeteer]

Yes you would lose $5 but they arent making it for $400. I mean honestly in bulk you think it costs em that much?

Re:The summary isn't really fair.

[packeteer]

Uh huh... Enron told us all they were making money too. Im not saying Microsoft may be deciving us becuase there are many legal ways to fudge the number.

I can't believe I'm torn...

[Cali Thalen]

As much as I hate to admit it, I'm torn between my hatred for the heavy-handed M$ action, and the proported resoning that it will help prevent cheating in their online games.

Nothing destroys a game community faster than the proliferation of cheaters. And, the Xbox stands to profit nicely if it can develop those communities (it's certainly not profiting without them). If I pay my hard-earned money every month to play an online game, the last think I want is to have no chance to fairly compete.

On the other hand...is that what's happening, or is this just another excuse to enable the control freaks at M$ to continue their reign?

Re:I can't believe I'm torn...

[imr]

don't tell anyone as it's not common knowledge but, hmmm... yes... it's an excuse.

Online cheat protection == a JOKE! Waste of $$$

[SexyKellyOsbourne]

Sierra has agressively pursued permanently banning cheaters from WON -- and you know how much success they've had? Almost NONE.
Don't believe me? Go here: http://www.cheat-network.net/ and get the 4dv4nc3d GLHack for Counter-Strike -- it can't be detected.

MOD chips are quite difficult to hack -- and even if the games do have it, it will either be fixed by a crack group in the game rip, or the mod chips will be modded further. Any decent Xbox hacker would be in the know, and it will hardly do anything -- it's just more of Microsoft's money down the drain feebly attempting to stop piracy.

omg

[papasui]

You mean you actually have to *gasp* buy the games to play them online? Jeezus I know slashdoters are cheap but come on. Blizzard has been doing this forever but because their parent company is a foreign evil empire nobody cares. Get over it, if you want to use a Microsoft product you gotta pay for it.

Re:omg

[bstadil]

Modding is in my opinion a perfectly reasonable thing to do, if you do it to circumvent the probably illegal regional setting system.

Selling software and DVD's that can only work in special regions of the world is against Free Trade.

If you notice this has never been pushed by RIAA etc into the courts as they are more than likely to lose.

Xbox is being launched in Singapore as we speak and one of the strategies MS is following to counter Sony PS2 is allowing US game versions to be sold.

Re:omg

[Guppy06]

" You mean you actually have to *gasp* buy the games to play them online? (...) Blizzard has been doing this forever"

Actually no, they haven't. A single Blizzard CD can be used to install up to 8 "spawn" installations that will let you play multiplayer games while only buying one copy of the game. Even on Battle.net. You can't play the one-player campaigns and (on the older games) you don't get CD sound, but other than that... You can even do this with Warcraft III.

Personally, I wish more game companies had this kind of attitude. It shows they're more concerned with gamers having fun than squeezing every cent out of games for the bottom line. Of course, with most Blizzard games, you don't really need that kind of incentive to want to go out and buy the game. Which brings me right back to "I wish more game companies were like this."

Re:omg

[btellier]

So you're telling me that you only use Kazaa to download free music? Bullshit. You and 95% of Slashdot's population (including me) pirate music every day. If you want to listen to a piece of copywrited music you gotta pay for it, right? Or is that different somehow? Topics like this piss me off because it brings out every other fucking hypocrite on the internet.

Re:omg

[btellier]

If you break the EULA you terminate any obligation MS might have for you. Is this so difficult to understand? You broke a contract. Repeat after me: YOU BROKE A CONTRACT. If you don't like it, don't fucking buy it.

Re:omg

[pacc]

Selling software and DVD's that can only work in special regions of the world is against Free Trade.

If you notice this has never been pushed by RIAA etc into the courts as they are more than likely to lose.
</i>

This only works because of local taxes promoting locally produced DVD's and putting a fee on imports.

In areas like videogames there are no such endorsement from the states and the companies could easily end up paying fines for artificially keeping up the prices, like nintendo recently had to.

However, Microsofts right to only have signed software running on their products could simply be based on copyrighted parts of the code itself, but this doesn't seem to fall in any of these categories: You are running legitimate software and Microsoft is blocking your use of it.

Re:microsoft isnt the smartest...

[mentin]

The difference is that those non-modded boxs have the warranty, and thus will be fixed or replaced (or the server software updated).

if this weeds out cheaters then so be it.

[revoemag]

I'm a game producer that has worked on online games, I will say that this is a very good thing. You don't know the trouble that we go through to make sure that people do not cheat in an online game and you know what, they figure out a way around it anyway. This is the first time that we have hardware level control over the game .exe's integrity. With MS's code sign system the game .exe is not hackable and this is a good thing for all of us. Hacking RUINS online games and if this is what they have to do to stop it then ok.

Good for them.

[Keebler71]

How many times have your heard a "Leet" Linux nazi shout RTFM? Well, in this case RTFE. (EULA). It is their service. The box is your hardware Now, I'll side with you that you have the right to modify said hardware anyway you choose. IMHO, you paid for it, you can use it how you want... however connecting to their network is completely another matter.

Why would they want to be responsible for some hacker bringing down their server because they hacked their box to do [fill in the blank] and screwed with some important protocol or something that causes their server to crash?

As for using foul language... what is your problem with that? Again, their server, they make the rules. You are not entilted to anything. If you have problems with their rules, than I suggest you don't buy one. Oh, and anti-language rules are relatively common in MMRPGs so it's not like that would be so shocking either. I actually prefer to play games with others who do not continuously spam my screen sexually immature comments.

Where is all the outrage about all those stickers on your components that say "warranty void if removed"? Or do you only rant about Microsoft (that was rhetorical).

bannings...

[Lumpy]

Next up bannings for using foul language on Xbox live service??

I'm all for it! at least they need to make 2 channels.. 1 for kids and 1 for those that think profanity is an art form

All I know is that after playing one of the Ps2 voice enabled games, I will never ever use the voice side again... too many immature pottymouths and idiots just screaming or jamming.. it ruins the idea of it.

so yes it needs moderators banning those that have no self control.

Good for microsoft!

[grahamsz]

Microsoft aren't doing anything illegal here, put simply - to use xbox live you require an original microsoft xbox.

People should be free to mod their hardware as they see fit (since it's theirs).

This is a bit like me fitting rocket boosters to the back of my car and driving it around at 200 mph. Sure i can do it and that's probaly legal. Driving it on public roads is of course not.

Anyway i thought everyone that bought xbox mod chips wanted them to make them into linuXBoxes - what the hell will they be doing with xbox live, what they realy need access to is apt-get live :)

Re:Good for microsoft!

[BrookHarty]

If my dvd player had an EULA, that stated I could not play rated R dvd's on it, do I still have to agree to its EULA?

I hope people find a way to mask the Mod chips, this EULA business is getting out of hand.

Think first, then post

[kaosrain]

I will admit that not everyone uses modchips for legal purposes, but there are many uses for them other than pirating games. With a modchip, you can write and run your own code, and run Linux, things you cannot do on an unmodified box.

Re:Think first, then post

[BrookHarty]

I will admit that not everyone uses modchips for legal purposes, but there are many uses for them other than pirating games. With a modchip, you can write and run your own code, and run Linux, things you cannot do on an unmodified box.

Amen, svcd/vcd/mpeg/divx/mp3 player...

Re:Think first, then post

[k_187]

yes, but if you're doing that then you're not going to be using Xbox live very much.

Re:Think first, then post

[scrain]

I use my mod chip to play games imported from Japan. Which I pay for. my mod, as it stands won't even play a burned disc.

Re:microsoft isnt the smartest...

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, you're a moron.

It's so that people can't cheat. Cheating ruins the gaming experience, and unlike online gaming, Xbox users cannot simply switch to another server. Xbox Live users who are being affected by cheaters will simply stop subscribing to Xbox Live. In Microsoft's case, cheating directly affects Microsoft's bottom line. Microsoft has ever reason to wipe it out. And i'm glad that Xbox Live gives me the ability to have fun, in a cheat-free environment. No more accusations of being a 'wallhacking hax0r', or a 'aimbot'.

Talk about DoS...

[NoMoreNicksLeft]

So I buy an Xbox, have it connect through a sniffing proxy (a linux box with a modem and a serial nullmodem connection). Then I mod it, do the same. At this point, I should be able to start spoofing Xboxen, with fake or even strategically chosen GUIDs. That asshole that beat me at Q3 3 times last sunday? He better hope his GUID isn't available to me through my proxy. The admin who chewed me about about saying "cunt" in the #kindergarden area of Xbox Live? He better hope I can't find his GUID.

Hell, you might even just start carpet-bombing things. I can imagine even writing a little worm, that goes out hitting cable modem users, who still have a dialup. Late at night, it dials out to the service, and spoofs a modded Xbox. Hundreds of them, thousands of them. This could be fun...

I mean, there are cryptographic methods that could prevvent something like this, but after all, we are talking about M$.

Re:Talk about DoS...

[SSJ2 Labsuit]

Dogbert, no! Don't do it!

Re:Talk about DoS...

[Saucepan]

Repeat after me...

With every X-Box purchase, MS helpfully provides chips containing both the encryption keys and the instructions for using them.

Use as much encryption as you want, it won't help much when you are giving the key to the attacker.

Re:Talk about DoS...

[toopc]

So I buy an Xbox, have it connect through a sniffing proxy (a linux box with a modem and a serial nullmodem connection). Then I mod it, do the same. At this point, I should be able to start spoofing Xboxen, with fake or even strategically chosen GUIDs.

Hell, you might even just start carpet-bombing things.

Okay, so let's suppose you get these GUIDs and you.....?

What? What do you do with it? Connect to Xbox Live? Okay, but first you have to buy an Xbox Live starter kit, so you can get a subscription code and the required software. Not just one either, but one for each unique GUID you plan to sabotage. $50 a pop.

Okay, but you're a real genius and against all odds you figure out how to spoof subscription codes, and simply copy the software off of the net. Sure it's illegal, you're stealing $50 with each code, plus you've illegally copied the software, but you're determined. So install your stolen software, connect with your fake GUID, enter your fraudulent subscription code....

What's this? You need a credit card number to sign on. Damn, now you're looking at breaking real laws. The type that get you sent to Federal Pound Me In The Ass prison, but hey, you're messing with Microsoft, so I'm sure it's worth the risk to you.

Re:Talk about DoS...

[marauder404]

Even without encryption, they are probably using 128-bit GUIDs. The chances of you hitting upon a permitted GUID is impossible at best.

But they probably are using encryption and are using a key to sign the serial numbers. You don't have any ammo against that.

Re:Talk about DoS...

[hyphz]

> But they probably are using encryption and are
> using a key to sign the serial numbers. You
> don't have any ammo against that.

Umm, not necessarily. Non-nonced encryption is no defence against a replay attack.

If your password is "sesame" and a hacker sniffs that, they can pass on "sesame" to the server and connect as you.

If your password is encrypted to "f73hr89", a hacker sniffs that, and the encryption doesn't include a nonce, they can just connect to the server and send "f73hr89" again. After all, the server's expecting encrypted data, and the hacker doesn't need to understand the password, just to repeat it.

However, one hopes that even MS wouldn't manage a big enough security hole that it would be possible to sniff another user's GUID, username and password. A better use for that proxy would be to replay the responses an unmodded XBOX gave to the login sequence when a modded one is actually connected.

Who wouldn't?

[Flamesplash]

This is done in many arenas. Mini dish hackers, cable tv boxes modders, etc.. etc.. it's been going on for a long time, and well it's their service with their contract/EULA, you don't have to agree to it.

Fyi: Read article first, comment second?

[erax0r]

People with "unmodded" machines are being wrongfully banned as well. Happened to me when I hooked up my xbox live kit.

Article title.

[Night0wl]

Is it me or is the title of the article a little out there?

"MS accused of banning mod chip Xbox from Live service"

They later go on to say,

"...we're already seeing how unique hardware IDs could be used in anger by certain companies."

Well goddamn. I know microsoft is evil, but come on. Just because you don't want to follow the rules, doesn't mean they'll let you play with there toys. And I'm sure Xbox Live is burried in enough EULA's and of course backed with enough laweyrs to prove it.
I would have no problem if this article was rewritten as a non-attack on microsoft, and more as an informative article. Who's accusing them? I'm fairly damn certain,

"MS Found guilty of locking out modding bitchez from Xbox Live, Snoochie Boochies!"

All your fault. You cracked the case. You installed the chip, or had it installed.

--

I'm not anti-mod here either before the flames roll in. I'll be waiting for something worthwhile to mod my Xbox. As an added benefit of waiting for something worthwhile, if I do mod my Xbox modchips will be several years more mature.

Like the Palladium info here

[Jus ad Bellum]

It does talk about an interesting situation though with the future of Palladium. Where a lifetime (of the product) ban can be enforced. This could be very difficult on a computer where sometimes even a person who doesn't ever rip a CD/DVD/TV streams can by mistake and without knowledge play content that has been taken without permission.

This could especially be a problem if some malicious person were to put together a e-mail virus that could act as such content, and in effect cripple massive amounts of computers...

nothing you can do about this

[GoatPigSheep]

Microsoft is allowed to ban whoever they want, for whatever reason.

This is very similar to what sattelite providers have done. Some have used eeprom updates that completely ruined systems that had pirated cards. Microsoft in turn is banning users who have used illegal mod chips which in turn could let a user use pirated games. This is no different than blizzard using serial numbers to prevent people from playing online using pirated versions of their products (blizzard is a prime example of a company that tries hard to curb piracy, despite many attempts to hack their protection such as bnetd).

Most importantly though, if you don't like MS's perfectly legal tactics, you have the perfectly legal solution of not buying their products.

Re:nothing you can do about this

[Spazholio]

Your lack of facts regarding the bnetd project is staggering. You state that bnetd was created to promote piracy by circumventing Blizzard's protection. Nonsense.

Bnetd was created to get around the *bloat* that surrounds the battle.net servers. It was ideal for things like LAN parties or hosting a campaign for a few friends, instead of fighting to find the people you you wanted to play against on the battle.net network.

I tend to agree with your MS views - it's theirs and they can do what they want with it - but please don''t fall for the hype that open source alternatives are only designed for piracy.

Re:nothing you can do about this

[Alien Being]

"Microsoft is allowed to ban whoever they want, for whatever reason."

Good one! That makes step 4 a cakewalk.

foul language

[harlows_monkeys]

Foul language is a banable offense on most online games.

Is there an issue here?

[Anonymous Coward]

Once again, Slashdot is blowing things out of proportion...

If people want to mod their XBoxes, Microsoft should have no say in what they can do with what they purchased. I think we can all agree on that. Now, if Microsoft wants to ban modded XBoxes from their service, who are you to say what they can or can't do? This is much like what happened with the bnetd people. Blizzard didn't want bnetd clients to connect to their servers (because of issues with cheat protection and the like), so they blocked them.

If you don't like what Microsoft is doing with XBox Live, don't pay for the service. Or better yet, don't but a XBox! Hell, you could even make your own XBox Live service for all the banned boxes if you felt so inclined. Their rules may be stupid, but it's their house, and it's their rules. If you don't like them, go elsewhere.

Re:Is there an issue here?

[imr]

But it was out of proportion before that.
People say: "but if you don't like their policy, don't use xbox live."
But right before that, if there's too much cheaters, use another server,use another game!
We just don't need no fscking internet police to say who has the right and who hasnt to play a videogame!!
We're not talking about crimes, for christ's sake!

Re:Is there an issue here?

[WildBeast]

If there are too much cheaters, then the ranking system becomes useless.

You have a modded XBox? Fine, you can play the game, as long as your mod is turned off. Why would you turn it on when online anyway?

Chat with MS lackey

[Anonymous Coward]

William Hello and welcome to the Xbox interactive online chat support! My name is William.

Jon Do you have my question or do i have to type it again.

William Microsoft will defend the gaming experience for our users on Xbox Live, and will not approve the use of any game cheating devices for the Xbox gaming platform. This is a violation of the Xbox Live Terms of Use. If users attempt to access Xbox Live with an Xbox installed with modified hardware or unapproved software, their Xbox will be blocked from accessing the service now and in the future. Microsoft reserves the right to take other appropriate action in the future, which could include canceling the user's subscription.

Jon So when Microsoft said we wont take action they were just lying

William No, the software for catching and blocking hadn't been fully perfected before.

Jon People use the mods to access music, movies, and pictures for legit reasons. So i guess to play online and acess data on a pc I should go with a Sony.

Jon So is the account blocked or is the xbox itself blocked

William The Xbox itself, the account is actually useable on a new console. The original console with the chip will never work again even if it is removed.

Jon OK. Thanks for your help. I'm off to buy a Sony.

William Thank you for using Xbox Interactive Online Support. I hope that you have found our session today helpful. For your convenience, you will receive by e-mail a detailed transcript of our chat, including all site links, with a ticket number for your future reference. At the end of the chat, there will be a small survey. Be sure to fill it out! If you need further assistance, please come back and visit us again.

Jon Thanks and I'll tell Sony how great Microsoft has been in convincing me in buying a PS2

William I guess it depends on whether you want superior gaming or semi-PC possibility. Either way have fun!
------------- ...so which is the "superior gaming" platform and which is the "semi-PC"? ;)

On a side note, I'm saving the $50 I would've spent on XBOX Live. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. You claim you're losing money by people modding their Midways? What WTF do you think is happening if you won't even let them PAY for a service like XBL?

Re:Chat with MS lackey

[Forkenhoppen]

I wonder how long it'll be before someone writes a random serial number generator for these things, and people who haven't even heard of a modchip start getting bumped because someone else impersonated them.

I'm sure there are a lot of possible numbers, and the chances of someone hitting a correct serial key before Microsoft boots 'em for too many connections'd be pretty rare, but still.. all it takes is one legit game coder who does something stupid and uses that serial key as a unique user id number in a network game, and bye bye security. All it would take is some smart fellow with a packet sniffer to get that value, and suddenly it isn't safe to play against people you don't know because they might steal your xbox's serial key...

Okay, so it ain't gonna happen all that often. *cough*.. Am I missing something? They've got this pretty well thought out, don't they?

Uses

[TheOnlyCoolTim]

It also allows you to play imported games or try and develop stuff for the X-Box.

Tim

It's Their Right, Good For Them

[MBCook]

For all the MS bashing here on Slashdot (which I'm usually a part of) I've got a few things to say about this. First off, we all know that it's their right to do this, it's in the EULA (along with giving them your first born son, etc, etc) and it's OK for them to do this. And with more and more games going online and being mostly online (as we'll most likely see in the future) this will be a major deturent. I would expect Nintendo and Sony to do the same thing if they setup online gaming the same way. I do think that you should get one warning first though. Just as a question, I believe that there is a mod chip that can be switched on/off, can they detect that when it's off? Just wondering.

As for the implication about swearing, GOOD! I don't mind a "Damn" when something happens now and then, but if I want to hear non-stop-increadibly-vulgar-peel-the-paint-off-eve ry-single-thing-within-ten-miles swearing, I'm sure I could go find that somewhere. But I don't want to hear it when I'm trying to play on online game. If you can't deal with not doing good in a stupid game without shouting enough obscenities to make all nuns on your contenant have a heart attack, then you need some serious help. I've been using Live a little (I got into the beta) and I haven't heard much of it, but I am expecting a certain level of maturity when I play online (about age 7). The constant idiotic trashtalking is anoying too, and people who make tons of sexual references and innuendo. I HOPE MS bans people who do this repeatidly. Considering that they are positioning this as something for kids, they most definatly should controll that sort of thing.

Re:It's Their Right, Good For Them

[Rew190]

I've been using Live just about every night now, and swearing isn't really rampant. I've found that so far most folks just mute their headsets, and the ones who don't are usually polite. I think for some reason people hold back a little when they're on voice.

Also worth noting is that Live has a system where you can mute users who you don't want to listen to and provide feedback on that player, a la EBay. Supposedly there will be punishment for those who're found to abuse the voice system.

Basically, I don't think it'll really be an issue in the long run, and if it gets that bad I'll just take off the headset or block all of the kidz.

Re:It's Their Right, Good For Them

[slantyyz]

It's an interesting commentary on society when someone can get banned from an online service for using foul language, while all the rule abiders get to stay online and frag their enemies and see all the blood and body parts bounce all over their respective screens.

What's wrong with this picture?

Re:It's Their Right, Good For Them

[0xA]

I agree with you about the swearing but I don't think this is a good what to do it.

I was frankly astonished to find out that MS didn't include a "Mute this player" function ala Counter Strike and the other Half Life games. I mean really, would it have been that hard?

What do the users have to say?

[phyxeld]

Well, according to this less than believable thread on the official site, xbox fans actually support banning mod chip users. Here's some choice quotes:

Don't mod the d*mn thing in the first place...Why do people do stuff like that? Xbox is tehe best anyway so why bother moding it???
...
That's what I'm saying, if you mod it, it's your own fault.
...
well mod chips cost 500 dollars or so to get installed with all the games you get with it, if you have that much money i bet you have enough to pay for a second xbox to play on live with, you just need to rebuy the games that are live compatable. I heard that mod games cost 5 bucks a piece and you get all the old arcade games and nintendo and snes and all that with a bigger hard drive for 500 dollars
...
Ms is the sh*t i love you ms.... die faggots who like to cheat bill gates out of his money... lol actually bill gates you dont need more money. GIVE ME IT!!
...
Personally i'm glad they're banning mod chips. I don't really care if people use the mod chip to do Linux or development or pirate games. But I persoanlly bought an xbox for online gaming becaue i'm sick of playing against cheaters on the PC. So anything MS is going to do to eliminate cheaters is ok with me.
...
Hehe, cheaters and hackers get the beat down. Why should we care if modders can't play.

So, see? People love it! Xbox fans don't want to make full use of their hardware!

/sarcasm

It's obvious that microsoft wouldn't ever run an unmoderated message board, but that thread is so uniformly in support of banning modd'ed xboxes that I suspect the whole thing is faked. Kind of funny to think about microsoft paying people to sit around writing stuff like "Xbox is tehe best anyway so why bother moding it??" and "well mod chips cost 500 dollars". I'm just waiting to see someone with a PhotoCD stock image for their user photo...

Re:What do the users have to say?

[TCaM]

I have the Live service and where I do tend to disagree with a great many things that MS has done and continues to do, I do agree with this. Any device that modifies the XBox, such as a modchip could also likely be used to load modified code that would and will most assuredly be used by pinhead assholes to cheat. Having seen this type of cheating on the PS2 with certain online games, and also with just about every online PC game I have no sympathy for the people who do this and get banned.

Re:What do the users have to say?

[blincoln]

i'm sick of playing against cheaters on the PC

This is one sentiment I can agree with. I never play games online anymore, because at least 3/4 of the people I ended up playing against were using one or more hacks to cheat.

I imagine that MS is going to be very dependent on the fees for online gaming in order to turn a real profit in the long run with the XBox. If the PC experience repeats itself on their console, IMO the users will drop like flies, and they will be back in the hole.

MS does do things I don't like, but this isn't one of them.

Re:What do the users have to say?

[Guppy06]

Sadly, it looks as if Xbox has hit its target audience.

Re:What do the users have to say?

[Yottabyte84]

It's not like after detecting a mod chip the system explodes

Shhh! You'll give them ideas!

Re:What do the users have to say?

[nedric]

Online gamers are hilarious when they get miffed about cheaters. Spoils their clean little virtual world, it does.

Bottom line is:
In the real world, people cheat. Often.

You're the kind of jerk

[carlcmc]

that most of the online world detests to play with. The one that get a case of potty mouth and spews profanities when the rest of us are playing to HAVE FUN and RELAX. It is their service. You don't have to sign up for it, if you do, its under their conditions. Grow up and act like a 23 year old instead of a 13 "young boy".

sheesh, it feels good to flame someone for being retarded.

Re:You're the kind of jerk

[mbogosian]

sheesh, it feels good to flame someone for being retarded.

So does it feel as good when you find out that you just flamed someone for an attempt at humor through sarcasm?

I guess "retarded" is all relative....

I wonder how I could emulate a Xbox and the ID #

[Kasmiur]

Then we could connect to the live service and get microsoft to bann a twenty thousand Xbox numbers.
Just go in sequential order and make them think there are 30-40K Xbox's out there with mod chips in them. Perhaps if all thier customers were banned microsoft would rethink thier stance on it and open it up.

Its a great thing too...

[pcx]

No modchips to let you cheat :-)

It's not unprecedented either. Drop in a modchip on your cable converter to get HBO for free and see how fast your cable company splices YOUR wire when they find out.

Hack YOUR copy of quake or unreal and see how many anti-cheat servers will let you log on if they discover you're not running the default client.

It's very, very simple. If you don't like the rules, don't join the service.

Re:Its a great thing too...

[BrookHarty]

It's very, very simple. If you don't like the rules, don't join the service.

Ya know, name one EULA you agree with. Modchips and hacks have legal uses, like my dreamcast linux box.

Re:Its a great thing too...

[monthos]

Did you get a modchip for your dreamcast, and if you did, dont you feel dumb now :).

Dont get me wrong, i have a dreamcast and run netbsd with it. however the xbox live service depends on unmodified consoles to prove that players dont cheat, and becouse of that requirement mod chips are not allowed, becouse it then becomes an uncontrolled enviroment. Sad but understandable, if you dont liek it, i guess you shouldnt get the service then.

Re:Its a great thing too...

[mark_lybarger]

i agree with your other points, but is getting HBO for free really stealing? stealing what? a signal that you didn't ask them to send to you anyway? sure, your getting something without paying the normal price for it, but they're sending the signal to your house and you didn't even ask for it. it's not your fault they have a flawed delivery mechanism.

you've always gotta throw an analogy in, so here goes. if i order just a side of eggs in a resturant, and they bring out the whole breakfast complete with hashbrowns, toast and sausage, i just might pick up the fork from the table and eat everything on the plate (yep, i'm pretty sure i would). but i'll be damned if i'm going to pay for anything more than the side of eggs that i ordered though.

it wasn't brought up, but i don't think the DMCA comes into play at all here since with cable descrambling you're not copying anything, and it's not encrypted/scrambled to protect copying, only viewing.

Re:Its a great thing too...

[Guppy06]

"Drop in a modchip on your cable converter to get HBO for free and see how fast your cable company splices YOUR wire when they find out."

Depends. Is it your cable converter or a rental?

Re:Its a great thing too...

[marauder404]

99 out of a 100 modded XBoxes aren't for running Linux. They're for playing copied games.

Re:Its a great thing too...

[NeMon'ess]

its illegal to listen to cell phone conversations isn't it? unencrypted, analog cell phones are a thing of the past, but the law was passed because some companies wanted it that way. most people don't have airspace rights to their property, or mineral rights underneath. by arbitrary law americans don't have the rights to a cable signal passing through their property.

How dare microsoft!

[nobodyman]

You mean, they're actually trying to ban people from using pirated software on their network? What nerve!

Seriously folks, does this shock (or even surprise) anyone? Any company would do the same damn thing (yes even Redhat).

REAL nerds view this as a challenge

[sam_handelman]

The challenge is - can you install the mod and get on Xbox live, anyway?

Can you enable your intellectually pedestrian friends to do the same? The entire nation?

MS is doing this to *encourage* modchipping. It's like a contest; MS awards m4d pr0p5, in the form of a l4\/\/5u1t, to the first h4x0r who builds a kit that can modify the xbox in a way their servers can never, ever detect; it must be usable even if the person you give it to:
1) Has no technical training.
2) Lacks even a basic understanding of electronics.
3) Hell, they can't change a lightbulb.
4) They're blind.
5) They're a technophobe, they have alzheimers disease.
6) Hell, they're dead. Ease of use must be total.

The winner gets instant geek celebrity and free representation by the EFF.

And why not?

[erydo]

I don't understand why people are making such a big deal about this; as far as online gaming on a console goes, what's the difference between banning hardware mods and banning unfair software mods? This type of banning has been done since the first multiplayer games. Albeit the mod-chip is intended for a good use, but just like allowing software to ignore and allow mods, letting it go would just be an opportunity for the lamers of the community to abuse the power and ruin it for everybody. I suppose I'm playing the devil's advocate, but I think that Microsoft certainly has the right to do this. Heck, if you're going to be doing X-Box hacking, why doesn't anyone make a new mod-chip to connect to mod-chip specific network?

Re:microsoft isnt the smartest...

[McCarrum]

Nonsense. Whilst modding the box allows an opportunity to pirate, it also provides a number of different services ... even to run Linux on the thing. It's only a specific type of use of this technology which is piracy. Remember when this same old argument was taken up to try to stop VCR's?

This pre-emptive 'you must be a pirate because you use this technology' argument has been dribbling from the chins of many organisations, it would be laughable if it wasn't for the fact it's being taken seriously.

Gee, Microsoft run an astroturf campaign ???

[Salgak1]

I'm shocked, shocked to hear that M$ would stoop to astroturfing. Again, that is. . .

You'd think, getting caught once or twice at it. . .

Fine.

[Scotch Game]

Ban foul language. After playing Halo on GameSpy for the past four months I, personally, would be just fine without having to have my fifteen-year-old sit down next to me for what should be a relatively innocent game while a box named "Cunt" comes online for a game, sporting players with names like "CumzEezy" and "KlitLickker".

Yeah, yeah, I know, "just turn the channel" blah, blah, blah, but when the vocal minority is comprised of thirteen-year-olds that think that sort of thing is phunny, heh, heh, it just starts to sap fun out of the game and then what are you left with? Eventually you have to "turn the channel" so much you might as well not play? To hell with that. So ban the morons. If you can't think of a decent, social way to express yourself then stick to high quality software like GameSpy.

LETS HAVE OUR SIMS PROTEST!

[stratjakt]

That'll show 'em, boy howdy.

Side note:

Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated.

Damn you Microsoft! Oh wait, I read that here.

Free Play

[Sean Clifford]

Sony supports screwing with their boxes. Certainly not with regard to piracy, but promoting by promoting dinking with the OS & generally giving folks a big thumbs-up with hobby-izing their platform. They want ubiquity, and they're gonna get it.

I own an X-Box and a smattering of PCs - one runs Windows XP/Linux the others Linux when they're not in various stages of disassembly/reassembly. My X-Box sits unmodded and unused. It was fun for a while. A PS2 is on the shopping list this X-Mas, mostly for Linux. It nice to have something for Free (as in Freedom) Play.

Re:Free Play

[WildBeast]

Your XBox is left unused? Please ship it to me.

Hack in their favor.

[man_ls]

Someone hack it to run Windows 2000.

No kidding, either. Instead of a Linux install on the HDD...put a Windows install on it.

It is, after all, standard X86 hardware, with a different graphics processor, that's all.

I bet if someone did this, there would be zero complaints from MS about it.

It's not heavy handed

[Sycraft-fu]

It's no different the iD banning pirated Quake 3 keys, DAoC banning people using cheat programs, or anything else. It is THEIR SERVICE, they get to choose what is acceptable or not. Your roof, your rules, as the old saying goes.

When you buy a physical good, it becomes yours. The company can't tell you what you are and are not allowed to do with it. You can take it apart, change it around, wahtever you want. You own it,so it's yours to play with.

However, a service is something where they allow you to use their stuff. That means they get to set the rules. If you break them, they can stop selling you the service. If you don't like their rules, you are perfectly free NOT to use their service.

It's just like your house, you can impose whatever rules you like on guests that come there. If they violate your rules, you are free to throw them out. They don't have any inherant right to do what they want in your house.

hehe

[mrpuffypants]

i just called xbox tech support about this and asked them what would happen if i tried to sign on with a mod chip

the guys was really cool about it, he said that it "may or may not" work after i signed up

he asked what it was for, i told him the xbox linux project...he tells me that he's done that to his own xbox and that it works great, but that he'd never tell his boss about it =]

Re:Shades of things to come ...

[imr]

SInce his great prediction of "internet will never be popular", bill gates has tried to established his own private giant network.
First round: msn. doesnt work.
Second round: ie everywhere. people don't notice the difference.
3rd round: .net nobody knows what it is.
4rth round: drm product. modded down.
It could have been simpler to admit that he was wrong.

Microsoft ID

[His Nastiness]

I was just wonering if anyone knows for certain how Microsoft is id'ing these boxes. I only ask because it seems to me to be a simple thing for Microsoft to simply use a processor ID. The X-Box uses an Intel pentium chip and I know Intel used to, or still does, put an id number in their chips. Many bioses even allow you to choose if you want to enable the processor ID. It seems that this would be the best way for Microsoft to identify the suspect boxes as if it was software related then eventually Microsoft could assume that a hack would come out that would change the offending boxes ID. It seems to me that these are the only two ways Microsoft could be doing this besides perhaps a unique id in the bios but that would perhaps create production issues and again allow for "easy" reprogramming.

Competitive Counter argument

[bstadil]

It's Their Right, Good For Them

I agree with you but it surprises me that you (nor anybody else afaik) has mentioned the superior online strategy adopted by PS2 and GC.

They leave it to the individual game makers to provide the infrastructure and rules how to play. This is much better

If you get banned due to modding from Xbox Live you are hosed as far as internet gaming is concerned. Not so with the other consoles.

You can play US games on your Eur PS2 with minimal penalty risk as an example. Second you can decide to give your business to the game maker that mostly align themselves with your "View of the world" .

Rule 1: Screw the customer

[ackthpt]

There's a line by Carrie Fisher (Princess Leia) in Star Wars (A New Hope), I wish I could remember it verbatim, but it goes something like this:

addressing Darth Vader: "the more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers"

The reason I bring this up is because game players loyalty is only so strong. Keep trying to steer them toward your revenue vice and they'll just walk away. Better to work with them, you may lose a little, but you gain so much more with a loyal following.

Re:Rule 1: Screw the customer

[Babbster]

As a business, I don't think that Microsoft cares one little bit about having a loyal following of modders, particularly modders who didn't bother installing a switch so that they could turn the mod chip off which, by the reports I've read, allows a modded console to access Xbox Live just fine.

On top of that, the idea that Microsoft cares about having a loyal following of people who are trying to make it easier to pirate software is also hard to believe.

The loyal following that Microsoft wants includes people like myself who:

1. Enjoy games on the Xbox.

2. Buy Xbox games.

and 3. Know the difference between a PC and an Xbox and use their Xbox as intended.

Banning modded consoles from Xbox Live does nothing to alienate that following...oh yes, and Mechassault is a downright blast on Live, if anyone is interested. :)

Re:Rule 1: Screw the customer

[kableh]

Problem with that is that if you have a non-original hard drive in there it won't boot with the MS BIOS. And frankly, that is the only reason I modded my box. Halo loads like 3-4 times faster off the hard drive.

*sigh* Good thing I just bought GTA3: Vice City =)

Re:Rule 1: Screw the customer

[Babbster]

Having all three consoles, Halo is about the only game on Xbox whose load times I find oppressive. By the same token, GTA: Vice City is also a quick-loading game (once past the initial load) compared to virtually every other PS2 game.

I think that if I had modded my Xbox and then found out I couldn't play on Xbox Live, I would probably be looking hard for someone who WANTS a modded Xbox (and doesn't want to play on Live) to trade...Maybe this would be a good idea for a website - make a little matching service to hook people up so that modded Xboxen can be traded for unmodded Xboxen?

modders != cheaters

[stagl]

i agree that microsoft can do whatever they wish with their service.

yet i keep reading a common theme here in this thread, "good it'll keep the cheaters off".

i've been investigating modding my xbox this past week, and i have to say, i haven't seen one single "cheat" implimented into any game yet. and i really don't think that's the point! i think i shall still mod my xbox for reasons like:

backing up games
giving my xbox ftp functionality
patching the dashboard so it will display it in progressive scan
playing homebrew games and software like mame, quake2 (port), etc.

so you say that i lose out on xbox live? we'll figure a way around it :)

Re:modders != cheaters

[WildBeast]

Fair enough, so if you're not gonna use your mod chip to cheat, why exactly do you refuse to turn it off when on XBox Live?

I think...

[C0LDFusion]

...it'd be interesting to see the people who like to mod chip make ANOTHER mod chip that makes it possible to use custom "Live" services. Perhaps an open-source multi-player server group for people who don't want to have their money taken from them by Microsoft if they say something Anti-MS or cuss on an X-Box Live server and get banned.

Besides, if only a certain number of really dedicated mod-chippers were to do it, I'd go buy an X-Box and mod it, too, because I'd finally play with people who care about games enough to have skill at 'em.

Wow, there's a job

[LostCluster]

XBox Live Admin... play XBox Live games all day long. But when you win and the loser swears at you, you get to ban them.

Vote with your money

[rainmanjag]

I'm gonna drop the "if you don't like it, use your money to vote" argument here, but in a different way... if you have a banned mod-ed xbox, then really make microsoft hurt and go buy another xbox... they lose $150, you're not going to buy the games for the additional xbox so they won't "make up the loss in game sales" and you get to use xbox live if you want to... if everybody who had a modded xbox did this, microsoft's gaming division would lose even more money...

So yeah, vote with your money!

-jag

Re:microsoft isnt the smartest...

[catwh0re]

Sorry if I left any doubt in my clarity. There has been recent argument as to how much control MS has over their network, as it sharply contrasts to the control sony has over the PS2 network.

Again I reiterate that it's probably a smart move for MS to block modded boxes as they can then run software which could take advantage of a MS security lapse in the network, as well as make future customers think twice about mod chips.

Re:I wonder how I could emulate a Xbox and the ID

[k_187]

yes and piss off all the people that want to legitimatly use their xbox? Not everyone cares that MS is evil and if something like that did happen don't you think that it'd be reported and MS could just lift the ban? Not to mention that I'd be supprised if 40K people get into xbox live. MS is going to know how many kits are out there. They'd be able to tell that its someone with too much time on their hands trying to make a political statement by hurting those people that want to use their product.

This is news & NEW GBA Player on GameCube isnt

[Viewsonic]

BTW, Metroid Prime came out today, Game of the Year.

Fine With Me.

[NetJunkie]

I have a modified XBox. It's great for things like streaming movies to the TV. I was on the Live beta and got caught in the first ban on Nov. 12th playing legit games. I figured it was coming... Anyone with sense saw it coming...

I just bought a second XBox to play on Live and it's well worth it. I'm glad I won't be messing with cheaters. I'm sure chipped boxes will eventually get on, but most likely they'll be with the chips disabled. I suggest anyone that has a modified XBox be VERY careful. It's easy to target modified HDs.

For those bitching that they spent $50 and can't use it, read the EULA. It says plainly that you can't use a modified XBox on the service. Once it is modified they say it will NOT be considered normal if you remove it. Too bad. My only complaint is I wish MS would have come out right off and said "Yes, we banned modchips." or at least had the XBox give a better error than "XBox Live Not Found.". That just makes it look like a connection problem.... It ends up causing their support too many issues.

Re:Fine With Me.

[hyoo]

I'm glad to see that someone (especially a slashdot user) respects the EULA and doesn't bitch and wine because they violated it and got what was coming.

Microsoft is getting burned on this because they are one of the first to take a proactive step in online cheating. Also because their OS hold a significant share of the desktop market and 1337 linux zealots are jealous. So instead of making a difference by writing a better OS these users spend the daylit hours on slashdot posting libel.

Woops, kind of went off on a tangent there.

Anyways, don't go disabling all the lights on your car (you OWN it so you have the right), and then bitch when the cop pulls you over.

Foul language on Xbox Live

[Cheese Cracker]

Next up bannings for using foul language on Xbox live service?? Be careful what you say.. you may be playing with an Xbox Live admin...

Microsoft will soon announce that they've signed up Jerry Falwell as moderator for Xbox Live.
Prepare yourself for a life in eternal hell if you use foul language on Xbox Live, son!

I'm not sure this can be done...

[lightspawn]

So I buy an Xbox, have it connect through a sniffing proxy (a linux box with a modem and a serial nullmodem connection). Then I mod it, do the same. At this point, I should be able to start spoofing Xboxen, with fake or even strategically chosen GUIDs. That asshole that beat me at Q3 3 times last sunday? He better hope his GUID isn't available to me through my proxy.

You probably need to supply an account username/password to log into the service, which means logging on with multiple GUIDs from the same account can easily be detected. If that's the case, you can only do what you propose for $50 a GUID.

I'm not sure about the specifics, but one of the things that really really sucked about SEGA's Phantasy Star Online was that you could only play your saved game on the console you started it on.

Re:I'm not sure this can be done...

[NoMoreNicksLeft]

So they charge you $50, even if the box is banned?

How fucked up is that?

Re:I'm not sure this can be done...

[btellier]

Christ.. it's the same for virtually every online game pay service. You sign up on the web or with their special GUI. Then you log on and have a modified binary so they ban you. How would NoMoreNicksLeft handle that situation in his hypothetical online gaming world of fantasy, elves and make-believe?

Some strategy

[whereiswaldo]

This sounds like something Apple would do: limit your customer base before you have gained a critical mass.

Re:The label MS really want's on all their product

[SEWilco]

If this device fails to function, buy a new one.

What if this was just a normal ISP?

[Kilmor]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but what if this was say, aoltimewarnercnn-multi-whatever, and they banned users off their network if they were found to be running linux? and used the excuse "All of our complaints and legal inquiries involving hacking and spam ended up resolving to end users that ran linux, so we've made this proactive step to ensure a secure online enviroment for our customers."

Total BS, but what can an end user do about it? Ask for a refund? "Sorry , TOS violation, suck it."

Its not all that far-fetched....

Re:What if this was just a normal ISP?

[hyoo]

What would happen? People on slashdot would bitch like there is no tomorrow. The rest of the world will carry on.

Either way, the standard 'linux beat by large corporation' hypothetical situation you posed here does not weaken Microsoft's right to do what they wish to their proprietary hardware and network. How about this wild hypothetical situation, the linux kernel comes to life and kills all the women and children of windows users. OOHHHH... linux is evil!!!

To any pro-linux/anti-microsoft user on slashdot, this whole Xbox Live thingy isn't an issue since you really shouldn't be owning an xbox. The 'lets make MS bankrupt' excuse for buying an xbox doesn't disguise your true lust for sexy microsoft hardware.

Score:-1, posting anything negative towards linux

Modchips are not illegal...

[Fulg0re-]

This modchip issue has been quite the 'problem' lately in the Xbox 'scene'. I, like many others, have a modchip in my Xbox, and also have Xbox Live! Now, how is this possible?

It's actually a matter of simply installing a switch. When I'm using Xbox Live!, I simply use the switch to disable my Enigmah modchip (use a DPDT switch for wires 15 and 21). That turns off the modchip, and there's no conceivable way that Microsoft can detect the presence of the chip because the voltage going to the chip is simply shut-off.

If a person wants to use their modded Xbox, do not go on Xbox Live! What this means is that one should disconnect the network cable going to their Xbox when the chip is enabled, and presto.

So that's how to by-pass Microsoft's pseudo-detection. The overarching issue, however, is if Microsoft has a right to 'ban' modchip users from the Xbox Live! service. Arguably, they do because their is always the possibility of users downloading 'hacks' and 'cheats' for Xbox Live! enabled games. This would obviously be 'unfair' to other legitimate users, as well as Microsoft. And obviously, they have a right to protect their service.

Perhaps someone may argue that the modchip detection deters piracy. Maybe, but the amount of people who have the technical skills to install a modchip are arguably a negligible amount. In my case, soldering ~ 30 wires for my chip was a huge hassle. I doubt any of my friends and collegues could have done so. Nor would they even bother. How many people really want to run Linux on their Xbox just because it can be done?

In the end, if a person has the 'smarts' to install a modchip (even if it is the no-solder Matrix/Xodus chip), they should also have the intelligence to forsee that using such a chip has obvious consequences.

Don't you want to grow up to be just like Noone?

[yerricde]

Don't you want to grow up to be just like Noone?

Noone seriously runs linux on an xbox.

What did this Noone fellow think about how Mandrake runs on his Xbox console? Does he also run homebrew games on his GBA?

Noone legitimately backs up their software.

So do I. When I download free(beer) software or video clips from the Internet, I put it in a folder to be burned to a durable CD-R next time I get 600 MB or so worth of stuff.

Noone uses the iso images they leech off their friendly neighbourhood Gene6 ftp server to 'evaluate' before making a purchase.

The next console title I plan to buy is "Balloon Kid" for Game Boy, because I liked it on the emulator. I have recommended that a university buy copies of Syntrillium's Cool Edit for my senior project team after having tried the waveform editor's demo, because I liked the graphical interface for signal processing, and recreating the same thing in Matlab would be a chore.

I find myself to resemble this (fictional?) Noone quite closely.

Modchips are so you don't have to pay for the games.

Perhaps, but they have the same substantial non-infringing use as console emulators: letting anybody with a PC and a console write and run homebrew software for the console.

A game being 60$ one week, 30 the next, then 20, then eventually 10. It's crap. I refuse to pay an unreasonable price for a game. So I pirate them

Or just rent it for $5 or so at Blockbuster. If it's a PC title (which can't be rented in the USA due to 17 usc 109(b)(1)), just wait until (as you pointed out) the title hits the $10 bargain bin.

Dial-up users have no problem with this

[yerricde]

if you're doing that then you're not going to be using Xbox live very much.

It doesn't matter whether or not I use a mod chip on an Xbox because I don't subscribe to Xbox Live. I don't subscribe to Xbox Live because Microsoft doesn't want me. Microsoft doesn't want me because I'm on dial-up.

Re:Turn it back on them

[aderusha]

it's being worked on already, and basically as you've said - there's an eeprom that holds the serial number, and it can be reprogrammed with a different serial number. the suggestion of "flooding" m$ with hacked serials has been brought up, but i suppose the success of that will depend on how acurate m$'s database of known xbox serial #s is.

xbox =&gt ebay

[Sean Clifford]

I'm actually gonna stick it on ebay - bundled w/my games and extras. Figure WFT, might as well fund my foray into PS2.

This is all out of spite

[mao che minh]

Microsoft has nothing to lose by letting owners of a modded Xbox use the Live! service. Microsoft has already lost money on the sale of the hardware, but they could stand to gain that money back in subscription fees. Instead, they ban the modders' outright, without refund, out of spite.

This type of behaviour is directly related to their monopoly status. Microsoft is able to deny the owners of modded hardware the "privilege" of paying them money to use their service. This can be compared to the way in which they sustain substantial losses in all of their ventures except Windows and Office.

A normal competitor would just "look the other way" and take the money. Let's pretend that Electronic Arts launched a console system comparable to the Xbox called the "Ebox". Like Microsoft, EA accepted a loss on each system sale in hopes of gaining the cash back in software sells. EA's flagship game at launch was "UO: Generations". However, alot of people around the world didn't like EA's business practices, started a movement, and ended up modding their systems to run Red Hat. After all of that, however, these people then signed up for the "Ebox Live!" service so that they could play their favorate MMORPG on their Ebox. Would EA refuse the cash from these customers? Hell no, because they could not afford too.

This is silly and immature.

Is this, even unusual.

[InnovATIONS]

If you play EQ and use a hack like ShowEQ and they find out about it. Guess what? You're banned. No refund, banned. Even though it is a service that you paid for and you are just running programs on your own computer, all the other things you are griping out. So come on folks, get off of MS for once EVERY online game service has this provision. You play the game on the service fairly or you are banned, end of story.

Re:Is this, even unusual.

[lightweave]

That's ok. But you apparently didn't read the article. They don't ban you for using a cheat, they ban you for being ABLE to use a cheat. See the difference? Modding doesn't neccessarily mean that you are actually cheating but you are banned because of it and not because you were caught cheating.
If this would be transfered to PCs then this would mean everybody with an internet connection must be banned because he is able to download a cheat and use it. Or your harddisk is scanned and when a cheat is detected you are banned. Even though you might never have used it. You could have the cheat lying around on your harddisk because you are curious how it works and how to guard against it, but you are banned for that nevertheless.
Are you sentenced for murder because you have a knife at home? No? Why not? After all you could use a knife to kill somebody and don't tell me you have no knife at home, so this means you are guilty.

Re:Is this, even unusual.

[YrWrstNtmr]

"... it said nowhere that I may not carry a hammer with me just because I can use it to break the window of a shop."

Try buying a set of lock picking tools if you are not a bonded, licensed locksmith.

Flawed anology

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

No, but if the manufacturer refused to service the car because someone put a mod-chip in the onboard computer to get more HP out of it, and put it back to normal before they sold it to me. I would be pissed off at the manufacturer because there is nothing wrong with the car. If the chip was still in the car when I took it in for service, then that would be a different story.

Mullet doesn't feel sorry for you.

[Mulletproof]

As much fun as I know you would all have, an unregulated XBox in such an environent is akin to dropping a pirahana into a salmon farm. The point of Live is that it's a level playing field. A closed circuit. My box isn't souped up and neither is yours. I don't have to worry about you having some script that'll ping my connection to death, auto-aim for you or whatever because you're running Linux behind the scenes. I didn't say you would do that, but we both know there are plenty of assholes that would like nothing better than to gut Microsoft's gaming network from the inside. "Look ma! I'm 133t!". You may even be legitimately using your mod to increase hard drive space or store stuff other than the MS sanctioned material. Which is fine. But their's a trade off you're going to have to decide on. In fact, I'm betting that if you were smart enough to mod your XBox, you were smart enough to see this very real possiblity on the horizon and now you actually have the nerve to bitch about it. I can't count how many times I posted here to that effect either. there are simply too many tricks MS can pull with this quasi-computer of theirs.

So does Mullet feel sorry for you because you thought you were sticking it to the man by getting a $300 (now $200) machine with an advanced graphics card, only to find out one of it's key features has been disabled in modding it? Fuck. No.

a non-religious post

[kraksmoka]

i hate M$.

that said, i hate game hackers even more. there is nothing that spoils an online game like hacks. i'm a starcraft diehard. everytime someone uses a hack, the game slows to a crawl, someone drops, and the game is lame.

anyway, who really thought the same people that make IIS and Outlook Virus spreader could make an online service that doesn't have bugs for regular users on the first shot???

i'm gettin a PS2 anyway.

Re:SOLUTION: "Exchange" you XBox

[Mulletproof]

Viola, something tells me the MAC addresses wouldn't match up. Whether Live checks them or not is a different story, but "Viola" sounds too easy.

Stop the Insanity! Buy another bloody XBOX

[cryptowhore]

I never thought I'd be stepping up to defend the big M but I think that you're missing the point. 1. I like the xbox live, it keeps me sane when I need to play games instead of smashing my client's head open in frustration. Games with modded xboxs will give rise to cheating and then live will cease to be a fun place to play. 2. It's not like Microsoft is using questionable business tactics here, they're protecting their investment on an enterprise that is currently operating at a loss. Why would any company just turn a blind eye to theft? You wouldn't stay in business very long. 3. If you want to mod your xbox, that is, alter something that was designed to be a closed system, then go ahead. But please don't expect the world to bow down because you think it's your god given right to steal from game developers. Besides, if you're that into gaming, buy another xbox for online play. Of course, if you do buy an "straight" xbox then I guess you'll have to actually start supporting the developers who make those games afterall. Wow, let me shed a tear for the poor little kid living in his parent's basement. In conclusion, Video Games are not a right. If you want to better the world and reduce monopolies, go use Linux and quit bitching about capitalism. Regards, A REALLY TICKED OF GAMER....

You will not be banned for what you say.

[kick3r]

Xbox Live uses a 'warning system' where users can submit feedback on an abusive user (or good) with prepared comments like "Poor gameplay," "Harassing/Lewdness," "Good attitude," "Great session." After enough (and it takes quite a bit) complaints, your voice usage is banned for a month or so. When it returns and you continue, you will be be banned from the entire system for a month or so. After that, your account may be permanently bad. But believe me--no one's going to be banned for bad language.

A couple things

[Anonymous Coward]

Just a couple things I'd like to know about this situation which is quite humerous to me, at least.

1. A modded X-Box will probably eventually start generating "Unique" IDs of their own, possibly each start up or every time you tell it to. How long it'll take to actually do this is questionable, but the whole mod chip running things sort of points out that this whole setup won't work unless you start banning more than specific UIDs.

2. All the remarks about cheating, see #1. While anti-cheat tools make it harder to cheat by forcing you to appear that you're not cheating, at some point the connection to the physical box is just data and any data can technically be manipulated. Whether or not it'll be done in a reasonable amount of time might, however, might make it unreasonable for most people so at least in that they've served that purpose, but it doesn't fix #1 since the same people who spent all the effort to mod their X-box in the first place have a pretty large incentive to mod again their x-box to void the whole setup scheme (read PS1 mod chips, mod chip detectors, and future generations of stealth mod chips).

3. Banning people for modding their systems is bogus. Read #2. Those who are motivated enough can, if given sufficient time, cheat. This is true with or without mod chips. Encryption, hashing, etc are what is meant to protect the X-Box in the first place from inserting "invalid" code. Mod chips might be able to let you run arbitrary programs, but unless MS and co. are complete morons, they're encrypting all traffic to/from each X-Box system to avoid sniffing. You still can't debug an X-Box very easily and while you might be able to run arbitrary programs, you still need to use the system keys to run the games involved. So, if that's given you're back to doing physical tapping to attempt to read the unencrypted code at some step.. Or you could always try to brute force check all the encrypted output. In any case, all this amounts to is a very small and arbitrary additional barrier to #2. So, modding a system is more about a "we don't like mods" than any nature of true protection for gamers or their network at large. After all, an X-Box is just a computational device so it's not like using it to run arbitrary programs makes it any more of a threat than any other equally fast/bandwidth capable device. And the data coming in is still just data so it can always be sniffed. UIDs just make it harder but that won't stop people, just will slow them down.

So, all this rant amounts to is apparently a vain attempt to slow down the modding of systems in the hopes it'll actually prevent modders from getting on the network. Good luck with that, MS. Hope that works out well. If you've written a secure enough system with encryption and signings at every turn, you may make the system so unreasonable to break that no one but a tiny few will bother attempting to break your system for their own needs. If not, you're back to square one.

Re:That is so true!

[marauder404]

Are you paying $x/mo to RedHat for a service? Nope. There's a big difference between a product and a service. You can do with the product as you please, but you can't use a product to subvert the service. If you do, you're a threat to the service as a whole and the service can be denied to you. The product is still yours to keep.

Purchasing an X-Box?

[Nogami_Saeko]

Well, it would sure influence my decision to purchase an X-Box, knowing that MS might decide to cut me off if I modify it.

I think I'll pass. Thanks anyway MS. I'll go with a PS2 or just good Ol' PC games instead.

Re:Purchasing an X-Box?

[forkboy]

For the record, Sony has been very anti-mod as well. I'm sure once their online PS2 service is launched, they'll have a similar method for checking for mods.

#include standard_not_that_Im_defending_Microsoft.h

The devkit is expensive, modding is not

[neonstz]

If you're going to develop stuff for Xbox, you need a devkit, not a modded Xbox.

I have a modded XBox with the developer bios instead. It works great. I can use the XDK on my PC for developing and even use visual studio as a remote debugger.

Why a PERMANENT ban?

[clickety6]

From the article, it seems when you connect to XBL, sofwtare is downloaded which checks to see if you have a mod chip. If it finds one on, then you are banned forever. But why can't it just ban you for that session, so that if you connect with the modchip turned off, or even decide to remove the modchip permanantly, ytou can get back on. MS's claim is that they just want to amkea fair service. This would make a fair service - nobdoy with an active mod chip can log in therefore no cheating. From the permanent ban status, it seems this is just a front for trying to kill modded xboses totally...

Just imagine!

[EnglishTim]

Just imagine! When you're playing a game on XBox Live, they're checking the internal state of your Xbox to see if you've just pressed one of the trigger buttons! Bastards!

Damn them! DAMN THEM ALL!!111!

can anyone name a single mod...

[zonker]

that lets xbox users cheat? i mean how prevalent is this for xbox users (or ps2, gcn, etc.)? i haven't even heard of such a thing (most modchips just allow nongame code and nonregion games or movies to run), however i don't doubt their existance or probability in the future though...

Re:microsoft isnt the smartest...

[Babbster]

Remember when this same old argument was taken up to try to stop VCR's?

A big difference between the argument against VCRs and the argument against modding an Xbox is this: At the time of the court case, VCRs were the only way to obtain the legal benefit of timeshifting broadcast television. On the other hand, modding an Xbox is pretty clearly not the only way to run Linux. The question becomes whether the significant legal use is compelling enough to override the piracy question. Since IANAL, I won't try to answer that question, but the issues certainly seem light years apart in my eyes.

That's just terrible

[peterpi]

What is the world coming to?

Next thing you know, /. will ban IP addresses it deems "flamebait".

Careful, you could be replying to a /. moderator!

Speaking as one who works at EB...

[Ephemeriis]

...I can tell you that the average consumer isn't going to have any problems with this. Most of these folks don't even know what a mod chip is, and wouldn't install one if they did. Most folks are basically honest, and they just get even more honest if you inform them that they won't be able to play online if they install a mod chip. Furthermore, I would be willing to bet that the "average consumer" will actually be in support of it. I'm constantly hearing people complain about the rampant cheating in various game communities. If Microsoft takes an active role in banning those who abuse their services & hardware it'll be seen as a step towards eliminating cheaters.

The folks who do care about mod chips usually fall into two categories - collectors and pirates. The pirates want mod chips so they can play all their games without having to pay for them...and honestly, I can't think they'd be terribly surprised by getting banned. The collectors usually want mod chips so they can import games that aren't available here in the US...but that really isn't a problem (yet) with the Xbox. Sure, there are also some other folks who mod their Xboxes...tinkers and developers and such...but again, I don't think they'd be very surprised to get banned.

yrs,
Ephemeriis

Re:Turn it back on them

[aderusha]

well, if you read those posts, you'll find that changing the serial number is possible, but it's not trivial. the biggest problem is ATA locking on the hard drive. in order to change the serial, you have to unlock and then relock the ahrd drive with the new serial, which involves a couple trips swapping the hard drive into your pc and back into the xbox. it'll take about an hour to go through all this, so randomly chaning serial numbers until you hit a good one could be a bloody nightmare...

As usual, Microsoft wastes money to support...

[Alex Belits]

...Gates' wounded ego.

"Cheating" is pretty much bullshit -- if they cared they would demand games to be more cheating-proof. It's not that difficult to limit information sent to clients so "transparent walls" will show empty rooms, and messing with updated data will be pointless because server recalculates it. In any case invisible chips or proxy hacks are likely to appear. Microsoft only loses money on this -- users that can't use service aren't going to pay for it, and likely to make their networks -- and thanks to Microsoft's assholeness those networks will have to allow ONLY modded boxes because it's easier to make PC game run on a modded box than to reproduce Microsoft's protocol. That will leave Microsoft with their loss of $150-$200 as the final result of the sale.

So in the end it's the same thing as with Netscape -- Microsoft directs its attacks against people that enrage Gates (how dared they mod the Xbox to run the archrival system!!!), as opposed to doing something that actually profits the company. Judging for their numbers, only Windows and Office actually bring them money, everything else may look like a "strategic development" but now it seems more like a playground where two freaks at the top of the company exercise various ways of spitting into their customers' faces.

Re:As usual, Microsoft wastes money to support...

[Alex Belits]

Because Microsoft does not lose money to pirates -- it loses money to Intel and Nvidia that make the hardware. The whole operation is a loss machine to begin with, and will be for quite a while.

Re:As usual, Microsoft wastes money to support...

[Alex Belits]

The problem is, Microsoft does not get enough revenue from Xbox to cover those expenses. That including the game licensing.

Less Evil Reason.

[jellomizer]

With a modded XBox it may be possible for you to modify a game and play it online with a super charactor. or in other words cheat. and I am willing to bet the security on XBox live is weak at best without the getting that key. There is nothing that makes playing online games more fustration when people hack their software so they have super stats and kill all the honest players who are playing with all the balance code built in. Then when you get a bunch of cheaters most of the honest people will just stop playing the game and not use XBox Live. I am willing to bet sometimes when they try to do something that we think has pure evil porposes it may be to help their other users. But I still think if they stopped making Crappy Software and price them fairly then they dont need to worry about all this extra protection.

Perhaps

[mr.nicholas]

Next up bannings for using foul language on Xbox live service??

This might be a good thing. Has anyone played on Battle.Net recently? The strength and vocalness of people's anger and rudeness absolutely astounds me.

The people are what have prevented me from allowing my son to play on it.

Re:That is so true!

[nobodyman]

My point is: Microsoft's behaviour here cannot be construed as unjust. The submitter of this article seems to think that Microsoft is doing something out of turn or perhaps overboard in banning modded machines, because Microsoft is inherently evil. My claim is that Microsoft's actions are the logical and appropriate response to people that are trying to use pirate software on their network. Any company thrust in a similar situation would behave the same way. For example: Blizzard will ban you if they catch you using pirated copy of Warcraft III. So will Sony, as well as virtually any MMORPG operator.

I used Redhat as an example because people on slashdot seem to label them an "AntiMicrosoft": completely altruistic whose actions are not motivated at all by want of a profit. Yet I guarantee that Redhat would behave the same way if put in this situation.

Re:microsoft isnt the smartest...

[Darby]

Actually, you are the moron.
This can in no possible way have anything to do with cheating.

That's not what mod chips do.

Cheating is done in other ways which this will not affect in the least.

Please...

[Featureless]

Count me in. In fact, count in the entire XBox/Linux group. A $200 Linux box is a very important thing to many people...

Quite right

[Featureless]

Well said. Although permanent banning is probably a bit over the top.

Why forever?

[phorm]

That's the biggest question I have. If MS wants to keep all the cheating hacking losers off of 'live, then hell more power to them. How many stories have we seen where services are hurting because some idiot kid made the newest cheat/hack and distributed to all his friends? Ban the lamers, good!

However, a permanent ban is a bit much. If somebody is - par example - using a mod to allow them to play out-of-region games they couldn't ever get here, or perhaps to run linux... then no problem. Having a mod that could be turned on/off would solve this, except that the first time you're caught, you get nuked. If you're not cheating, it's not hurting the network (piracy is another matter).

Besides, will it really be all that long before somebody builds a "stealth mod" or something less detectable? I've already seen a lot of mentioning using a hacked ID /w modchip to knock other legit customers off the network. Probably not a good move by Microsoft, but hey - sometimes these companies don't know a bad idea until it blows up in their faces...

Re:How this is a Good Thing

[GMontag]

If Microsoft can be aware of losses in the tens of thousands of dollars then they will quickly reverse their stance on modding. Still, modding is a very good way of sticking it to them.

Humm, I like the thought but I am really not sure that MS cares if they loose money in that area.

Recently I heard a report that the only thing MS makes money on is their operating system and most/all of their other efforts loose money. Granted, most of their other efforts are designed to support use of their OS and I am a bit fuzzy on how XBox promotes this.

I keep thinking back to the 70's (or was it early 80's?) when GMAC, GM's credit arm ("public" company with all shares owned by GM) began 0% interest offers (lots of strings) on new GM cars. We had to study this in an advanced topics Finance class. The instructor wanted us to value the firm after the new loan product was out.

After the excercise he wanted to know why GM would do such a thing. He seemed suprized when I said "to sell cars, period". That idea had never dawned on him all the times he taught the course and apparently nobody else had suggested it. It seemed obvious to me and my team mates too, but they were just too tired of the guy to suggest it.

Re:microsoft isnt the smartest...

[Darby]

Cheating (AIMbot's and hacks, like what's made FPS online play suck so much) on a X-Box, requires the ability to run Unsigned Code.

No it doesn't.

Have you ever heard of a proxy?
Intercept the data and replace it.
No mods to the XBox are required.

Re:Blizzard's Battle.net vs. bnetd

[stilleon]

You can do whatever you want to it. Put a mod chip in. Just don't expect to play your pirated hacked games on Xbox Live.

You don't like the rules, don't buy the product.

Stop whinging on

[drinkypoo]

Microsoft makes the box, microsoft runs the network, microsoft licenses the games (and owns the people who make some of them), microsoft sets the TOS and writes the EULA. It's a one hundred percent Microsoft system. For once they aren't trying to hide these kinds of things from us, which is the only surprising part about the whole experience.

Consoles are all about a pure reference hardware platform which can reasonably be expected to operate in an identical fashion for all users. Microsoft is attempting to provide this service, and it's not easy what with all the people running around modding their hardware.

No one is telling you that you can't mod your XBox to your heart's content. If I revive one of the stupid car analogies so many of you have been trying to apply to this situation, it's like making a bunch of illegal rice boy modifications to your car (clear flashing lights, for example; the lenses can be clear but if they flash any color other than amber (or red on the back) then they're illegal period in most states) then you're not allowed to drive on public roads. Even then you might find a way to do it (IE, avoid cops) but you can get in trouble (banned from driving on those roads whether your car is modded or not.)

Also I'm tired of all you people who say "What about the innocent person who doesn't know it's been modded!?" First, when you buy something from someone, you should get a guarantee of some sort in writing. Know what you're buying, and know what to look for. Second, modded systems are typically advertised as such, because they are worth more. BTW, I have a chipped Sega Saturn for sale, anyone who's interested should contact me. :)

Up in arms?

[vmfedor]

What is everyone up in arms about?

People that mod an X-box usually do so for one of two reasons:

1) To put Linux down on it.
2) To play pirated games.

.. in the case of #1, why would you want to play online games anyway? If all you want your x-box for is some underglorified computer, by all means, but don't demand to be able to play online, too.

In the case of #2, if you're pirating x-box games, you're cheating Microsoft out of money. Whether or not you think Microsoft should make a profit out of their products is irrevelant.. the fact remains that you are still playing pirated games, so why should you demand to play online with them, too?

I'm not a huge fan of Microsoft, but I'm with them on this one. If you crack open your microwave and mod it so that you can run Linux on it (Imagine that! MicroLinux ;)), would you call up and bitch to the manufacturer that you can't heat up your dinners anymore? I think not.

- vmfedor

Re:microsoft isnt the smartest...

[Darby]

Show me the Cheater kiddy who knows how to do that to IP.

For this particular case (XBox some particular game),
they probably can't right now, but neither can they cheat with a mod chip.

Once someone with real knowledge figures it out and releases it then it's just clickety click.

The difficulty is the same either way though.

XBox Live's AOL Issues

[Winterblink]

One other notable thing I read about this, is that XBox Live doesn't play nice (read: not at all) on AOL's broadband service, and that MS is currently pursuing obtaining rights to have the service work on their network. Not that I'm some kind of AOL sympathizer or anything, I think they're a sad, sad service but you'd think MS would have locked that kind of thing down earlier. Like it or not, there's a pretty hefty userbase on AOL (although admittedly I don't know any numbers on how many people are on their broadband service). Comments?

Re:XBox Live's AOL Issues

[Nonesuch]

Actually, AOL's broadband service is known to have issues with a number of "non-standard" services and protocols.

I know from dealing with support calls from my users that many VPN clients cannot function on AOL Broadband. Given that Xbox Live operates much like a VPN, I can see how they would encounter similar problems.

For my VPN users with AOL broadband, we have had no success getting any assistance from their technical support, and the only solution has been to suggest to the user that they switch providers...

Drooooooool

[Featureless]

Where does it stop? AT&T (back when it was ma bell) used to forbid people from using answering machines not made and installed by AT&T at enormous expense. If you broke the rules, you could be sued, but worse, they could permanently refuse to sell you phone service as "punishment."

How dare we tamper with ma bell's own lines? How dare we?

Dont change the subject. Mod chips have many legitimate uses, and many legitimate users. Microsoft disagrees - what stunning moral logic of you to assume Microsoft is acting honestly in doing so.

I expect them to suck it up and take it like a multi-billion dollar monopoly.

Re:Blizzard's Battle.net v. bnetd - BAD COMPARISON

[Frobnicator]

There's a difference between the battle.net v bnetd and the xbox thing.

In the xbox world, Microsoft has a good claim that the mod chips hurt their business. People wanted to get pirated software, and MS said 'that hurts our profits'. If you want the ability to run Linux they have made a way to do that: GET A DEVELOPMENT KIT. If you want to make your own games, get a dev kit. If you want to play pirated games, you are a theif, (but could do it with a dev kit).

In the bnetd world, Blizzard has a poor claim that bnetd hurts their business. People wanted Blizzard to improve their online sites. People offered to pay; ISPs offered to host; Consumers complained. They could have EASILY said "We'll offer new servers", or "We'll license ISP's to host", or "We'll let corporations like McDonalds host and add BigMac items that restore lots of unit health". When the bnetd folks asked them for help, they just said "no." When bnetd didn't do the things Blizzard did, they could have made an agreement with bnetd to include their 'security code'. Did they? No. They filed a law suit instead of implementing their 'security code'.

To finish the comparison: Where Blizzard just filed law suits, MS said "keep stuff you have changed off our servers." Where Blizzard said "No other networks, period, we don't care if you are legit or pirates", MS has said "Developer networks are fine, just show that you are developers and not pirates."

See the difference? I personally dispise xbox mod chips because they hurt my paychecks. But MS were to somehow require that you used their servers and couldn't use dev servers? Or if their servers get clogged and they won't let new game developers enable custom servers? Then you will have a valid comparison.

frob.

Re:microsoft isnt the smartest...

[McCarrum]

Good points. I think it does come down to the ethics -- as expressed in the specific law of the nation/state itself. The modding of the XBox allows a 'function expansion' to the machine. How this expansion is used SHOULD be the issue, rather than the expressing the technically innaccurate view that modded xbox == cheating pirate.

I make copies of 90% of any VCR tapes and PC games, so I can use (and thus trash) these copies and keep the 'gold' media away from exposure (spot the slashdotter who has small kids ... this practice started when I spotted my 3 year old using my Diablo CD as a rollerskate). This is quite legal in my part of the globe ... is this (even mostly) universal?

It is MS's network, and they can do what they like. But then, in Australia, this action could come under the attention of the ACCC, the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission. Does the US have a simular group?

Re:HD cost, DVD cost, motherboard cost ??? Ideas?

[packeteer]

You can buy a 10 gig hard drive for $40. In bulk and from Microsoft its prob much cheaper. Im sure they could work out a deal to have a company not pay for their MS licenses if they give em some hard drives.

Count me!

[danro]

Count me in!
I'm going to use it as an el cheapo web server and for oggenc when im not gaming.
Huge thanks to the XBox/Linux people.

But I'm bloody well not giving you my email adress.