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Apple and Linux Beneficial to Each Other?
viewstyle writes "There is an interesting commentary on eWEEK discussing the 'synergies' between Apple and Linux after visiting LinuxWorld. It makes a good point that advancement of Linux is good for Mac OS X and vice versa, because of the ease of porting across the platforms (soon to get easier with the X11 on Mac OS X)." Next thing you know, most of the Slashdot editors and programmers will be using Macs ...
Frok Pok!
(_)_)===(,,,)===D ~o ~o ~O
aqua
Mac and linux both wont get first post so there. Mwahaha.
Using Win2k, haha!
Sig (appended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars)
>Next thing you know, most of the Slashdot editors and programmers will be using Macs ...
:)
But this is already happening. Cmdr Taco and Hemos both have Mac laptops, and from what I read online on their pages/blogs, they are their main machines these days!
I am thinking of buying a 12" Powerbook for myself. I have many PCs over here (8+) and an old G4 machine. But I need a new laptop, and that 12" powerbook does look good.
pronounced "10-11" by Steve Jobs!
If they can work towards an open file format system to replace MS office, they could chip away @ the MS desktop market.
That there are only 10 days, 11 hours, 58 minutes, and 21 seconds until Sun's SPECIAL web event? I'm so excited!
Next thing you know, most of the Slashdot editors and programmers will be using Macs ...
I thought you guys did use macs.
I attended Jeff Bates's talk at linux.conf.au where he gave his presentation using OS X. The only presenter all week who dared to use a non-Linux platform.
if they weren't so expensive I'd have one already
FP, if only I had something to say.....
fp?
Not only Linux wins, but all platforms capable of running KDE win. Huzzah.
check out http://www.apple.com/macosx/x11
first post!
nt
Lets get Apple kicks Windows ASSSSS
*first post* hahahaa
This is not a new idea... the integration Apple is pushing w/ the UNIX world in all its flavors is understood by many to benefit both... check out this site:
http://www.kingsofchaos.com/page.php?id=156303
I think care needs to be taken around Apple.
While they are producing some good stuff now (lets not talk about the past will we) they are a commercial company. That much won't change any time soon
As such their "priorities" so to speak are different and opposed to those of open source, linux, and software.
We could end up just feeding apple a lot in the way of open source projects, all up and dancing in a hoohaa of joy.
What happens when apple change their mind? Suddenly they're not so supportive of OSS. The commercial climate is fickle, and it WILL change
I'm waiting for Apple to get a version of Quicktime for Linux.
Most of the slashdot editors will be using macs... Instead of windows of course, which is their prefered os.
Specially OS 9!
Fuck Ya!
I'm sure Apple gets a lot of aid from the community (not just Linux), but what do we see in return? Sure we got darwin (But it's horribly outdated) and where is the updates for freebsd?!
... as microsoft wont share it with us.
Also we give them X11 support but would they ever give us Aqua support? I dont think so. Apple is in it for money, as long as they get money they'd be happy, they wont share it with us
Tell me in what ways Apple has been beneficial to the opensource movement (not just Linux).
First Post goes to techathead
>> Next thing you know, most of the Slashdot editors and programmers will be using Macs ...
Umm
Who gives a fuck?
Seriously, is this an article or an excuse to say 'Apple' and 'Linux'?
Did you not meet your quota today?
I dream of a day when people just stop worrying what OS everyone else is using and get some work done.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
X has been available on OS X for about a year. With XDarwin and OroborOSX it's about as perfectly integrated as it can get. Most X programs will compile just fine (and the ones that don't more often than not the problem is with the configure scripts.. rewrite the makefile and it works) I use gvim as my text editor and other X programs with relative frequency. OS X really is the best of both worlds IMO.
firsT! teehee
Penguins like apples. They grow quite well in Antarctica.
Of course Slash editors will be programming on Macs; Apple has them in their pocket. Any Slashdot editors willing to come on the record and deny that there isn't some formal or informal business agreement between the two?
Why the shiny interface for Mac-related stories?
Why do Mac stories invariably have an editorial gloss over them, even when dealing with Apple's bad behavior?
Seems clear enough to me. If Slashdot is honest, it'll affrim what everyone already knows anyway.
So much is the same between them!
Personal Web Sharing is Apache. Windows File Sharing is Samba. Printer Sharing is cups. The firewall is a default deny ipfw setup. OS X is OS X's killer app.
Hope we keep up the good relations, too. Should be a bright future if it's full of Linux and Mac boxen.
Don't think that a small group of dedicated individuals can't change the world. it's the only thing that ever has.
this goes to all my homiez at psu ITS
It's funny, I've used Macs since I was a young'n in 1984, and I've used Linux since kernel 0.99. I've never used anything else, except for a couple years in college using Windows and Sun on and off.
;-).
Linux has power and flexibility, and the Mac always "just worked". Sometimes I was annoyed that Macs were so closed, and sometimes I was annoyed at the lack of polish on Linux. Between the two I could do anything.
It's amazing, almost *surreal*, that Unix and Mac merged together in Mac OS X. It's truly the best of both worlds.
Of course, I'm still wary of "depending" on Mac software, because of the proprietary lock-in and other evil stuff that companies do. But Apple's continual underdog status has been keeping them in check.
I look forward to more cool stuff from Apple...just getting ready to invest in a 12" powerbook (Mac #8 in my life) and a new Linux-based mini-itx PC to build a home gateway (Linux box #4).
Life is good (well, computer-wise
What's next...
I can just see it Jobs to giving the keynote at LinuxWorld...
NAH!!!!
if someone plugged the OS X interface on top of Linux. man oh man that interface is snappy.
1) the stability of linux
2) the price-point of linux
3) the beauty of the Aqua interface
there'd be no reason to ever own a windows machine again.
smd4985
a vote for apple is a vote for linux
" Next thing you know, most of the Slashdot editors and programmers will be using Macs ..."
One could only hope...
with your MacPenguin, sir?
MS Office would just incorporate the new format. Cash registers still would ring.
"Next thing you know, most of the Slashdot editors and programmers will be using Macs ... "
I hope that was a light-hearted comment. The reason Mac's not popular with Linux users today is because PC has, by far, the broadest selection of hardware available. Perhaps if Mac clones were available...?
Apple's hardware has always been a step or more ahead of everyone else, and linux could benefit a great deal if it could take full advantage of it. When the G4s came out, they slammed all the x86s against the wall. Of course, there's always the problem with explaining clock speed vs. flops, so Apple needs to do some marketing about that to educate people.
The equivalent of tux racer for the mac. apple sleder.
First Post
I've seen all of you saying 'it doesn't matter', but it does.
From a purely technical standpoint, it might not matter. From a 'how things look to the outside world', it matters a lot. If a company as large as Apple was to have a change of heart, it would be as detrmental to the *idea* of open source to the same extent that Apple support open source has been a positive factor. You can't have it both ways.
creation science book
Macs are so pretty, I wouldn't blame anyone for switching- even if they did gut it for some other hardware/OS
lochness has the first post
down with the Bush Regime.
I thought Apple used BSD...
Linux uses GPL...
Different licenses for different things. Right?
yup. apple++
i just hit the refresh button after playing simcity 4 for about 8 hours (making sure to walk around the room every hour to prevent clotting) and BAM! i see a headline similar to the hilarious headlines generated by simcity 4.
i immediately rubbed my eyes and decided that it may be time to do something else for a while...
signatures are for fools with hands
first post!
I figured you guys had monkey that would randomly press a red button to move submissions to the front page.
This is nothing but good for both communities...
If you want to write an application for osX and you used X11, porting to linux would be much much easier.. So more applications will hopefully make there way from macos x to linux. I don't think many mac programs are X11, but if you wanted to program cross platfrom developers should start thinking about using it.
/GNU has helped make OSX much better with fink (OSX version of debian app-get) which gives mac osX users easy access to install a lot of gnu software. I got perl/ ImageMagik and xemacs running on my osX box. Its a great thing.
Linux
The fact that gcc is the standard OSX compiler doesn't hurt either.
FIRST POST!!!!!!!
Apple has proprietary hardware AND software. They've been taking from OSS community. Apple even used the OSS name/reputation to sell OS X!
I've been running both OS X & Linux boxes at home for the last 10 months. I can and do use both hardware and software as common elements, from drives & PCI cards to mail, music, browser and office apps, etc.
For me, these boxes are extensions of each other, not competitors, and I've come to think of them as one environment.
MySQL on one...MP3s and image db's on the other. Apache and PHP on both...DVD's play on both... TV on one...DVD authoring on the other. It continues to delight me that I can expand and build as they both mature. This effort started out as an experiment. Now, I wouldn't consider just running one box or one system.
The beat goes on.
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH!
first post
First off, just to clear this up...
soon to get easier with the X11 on Max OS X
X has been on X for quite some time. You could fink it if you wanted, or, if you want something even easier, you could XonX it or xdarwin it.
What's new, of course, is Apple's X11. That Apple would Aquafy X11 is really a great step forward, and hopefully means that -- and this is key -- Apple will start shipping Macs with X11 preinstalled.
Just as OS X's built in Java Virtual Machine makes OS X a first-rate Java deployment platform as Java apps look and act native without a single end user consideration about VMs, soon OS X could be a first-rate, well-integrated client-side deployment platform for open source software. Most importantly, this will continue to add new developers to open source movements, and that can't be bad. Even if Apple doesn't share everything they do, the fact that you'll have people used to making client-side apps increasingly contributing to open source projects is a great thing.
Not to mention that I've been impressed with what Apple's give back to the oss community, even though they technically often have no reason at all to do so. They've made Darwin open source, and have worked with the BSDs to share code that they have no pressing legal reason making them do so. Safari's updates to KHTML continue to be checked back in to the Konquerer source code by this paid Apple employee, which is another great move.
The only way I see Apple's new love of oss possibly being a bad thing is that Apple tends to hire the best away from open source projects and slap them onto Apple-first ones. Though this is great in that these people feel connected to the oss community, it has to shift their attention away from Linux and other F/free *NIXes a bit.
But more developers, especially good client-app developers, is a good thing, and having Apple return their contributions to the community is icing on the cake.
It's all 0s and 1s. Or it's not.
As I posted in another Mac article,
:
Here's what I'd like to see
User Mode Linux under OSX That would be interesting. Running a complete Linux distribution as a user process under OSX.
Based on the comments from the linked exchange above, Jeff Dike (UML developer) thinks it can be done.
I agree. And in fact, the only thing that keeps me away from the Mac platform is the price of the hardware. I just don't see spending $2000 for a PowerMac when I could build an x86 box with the same power for 1/4 of the price.
one of the best *nix apps sights out there:
http://fink.sourceforge.net
I'm currently running windows maker on top of aqua
kiyote
Who uses apple and linux :-)
This is Bill's world. Get used to it.
cheers
JohnGer
there's an APPLE section.
What would be even more bizzare, is if the Slashdot editors actually read their own site or used spell checkers. Why the hell don't doesnt CmdrBurrito implement some dupe checker. It doesn't have to check for exact dupes but just possible dupes and notifies the editor that this story could be a dupe and here are the list of articles it could be a dupe with.
While I snag that glorious f irst p ost...
The only benefit any mac users will see is a 3 button mouse, with a scroll wheel.
Many things that come out of Apple are very polished pieces of software and kick ass in general. Mass appeal and polish are some things that Linux software lacks in 100% of cases. I say, for OSS folks, who do most of this stuff in their spare time, should take all they can get and reap of the benefits regardless.
...Slashdot editors and programmers use you!
... While you _can_ run X11 rootless, it's only a little bit better interface-wise than Classic. Apple really should provide a wrapper to Quartz/Aqua which'd include several widget sets as well as straight X.. I'd still use X, if only so I can execute stuff like 'metatool' on my laptop, but as far as porting apps goes it's not going to be terribly convincing.. Of course, if Apple integrated X11 to the point where you didn't run all X apps in the same memory/app space, it might be close enough for art..
Granted, Qt is available now fully-supported and there's work on gtk, but there's plenty of other widgetsets and frameworks (particularly Motif) that'd be great to have ported..
Gaywads, Dorkwads Sign Historic Wad Accord
Enemy of Enemy = good friend :]
Sure we can co-exist; but where's Quicktime
for Linux? the one thing we could have used.
Apple can pirate anything they want from the
Unix world (like BSD and X), but Apple has given
very little in return. Apple markets itself
as hip and cool but acts like it's just the
alternate platform for running Microsoft software.
It's sad to say, but we'd be better of with
Apple in chapter 11 and Linux absorbing their
market share. With 10% of the desktop market,
we'd start getting more commercial software support. Apple's exclusive deals with software
suppliers and closed architecure has damaged
coherent opposition to Microsoft.
If slashdot editors are gonna use Macs, are Mac users gonna use linux?
this cant be??? no first post in like 20 minutes??? all geeks busy with the delivery boy???
And twins?
And I love you too.
Here's to love songs!
Key parts of OS X are still proprietary. Until they are free (or at least open), I still consider Apple an enemy. However, since we have a common stronger enemy, Microsoft, I'm willing to work together for now.
Luke-Jr
Word up.
first post?
why no other posts?
this is indeed strange.
If Linux is so good and stable and free, why do Slashdot Editors want to run it on overpriced of hardware like a Mac when you can run it on an equivalent featured/powered PC for hundreds (or thousands) less? Don't confuse distain of MS-Windows with a lack of appreciation for cost effective hardware. Remember, once Windows is gone, its just hardware waiting to run an O/S.
I'm scared of world leaders who think locally and act globally.
Next thing you know, linux will be running photoshop :)
strange day's are afoot....
I brought home my Ti OS X PowerBook from work one day. My Solaris/Linux loving spouse immediately downloaded OroborX (sp?), turned on the wireless networking, fired up iTunes and accessed remote Xterm apps for his job. I have asked him to stop greeting me at the door with "Hi Honey! Did you bring your PowerBook?", as it makes me feel he loves me only for my laptop.
Negotiations are currently underway for his own PowerBook, so that I might eventually recover mine.
bluesangria
Can i be first post bitch? Ok, the bitch was a little excessive, but a long time ago, i just asked to be first post, and i was told NO because i have to add a w00t, or a 'bitch' or something...so W00T!
first post! hi mom!
so try out apple's beta for X11 to speed things up..
http://www.apple.com/macosx/x11/
If together the two groups and help eachother out, that seems wonderful to me. Not every business in the same market has to be working to destroy all others. Often times a symbiotic relationship will be more beneficial than a destructive one.
At this point they have 90% of the market to shoot for. There's plenty of room for both to grow together while taking most of their customers away from MS.
More marketshare means more apps. It also means that technologies like OpenGL just might survive and keey DirectX from taking over the gaming world.
Just think, standards that are standard. Programs designed to run on multiple platforms. Sharing ideas rather than secreting them away.
Sounds good to me.
w00t! First Post!
Too bad I forgot my password...
gimp
FP
Macs rule
apples are good for YOU!
test
Normal, Apple's money can be of use to everyone, if opensourced.
PF!
post!!
it lacks a point...
the real question is, as OSS windowmanagers get better, where goes apple's software advantage?
mind you, if the IBM Power chip comes to the mac,
maybe i386 will finally have competition
Next thing you know, most of the Slashdot editors and programmers will be using Macs.
+1, Funny.
hi mum
With them both having their roots in *nix it would be quite obivous, theyre practically cousins.
X11 is the worlds largest strap on. Its pure bloat and legacy.
Apple have done a nice job on the UI, unix and the linux community are jokes with theyre little infighting and squabbling and cant agree on anything. Unix always was fragmented and always will be while it is plagued with elitist mentalities.
Dump X, use something better. Linux will not succeed on the desktop while X is around. OS X is the only thing good to happen to unix on the desktop. If they can hide X far enough away they win. Until X is either dumped or hidden forever beyond sight, unix and linux will never succeed on the desktop.
First Post?
Who gives a fuck about APPLE --- enough with the shitty stories you child rapists!
Ok, I enjoy a good In Soviet Russia joke once in a while. But this is just ludicrous. The quality of In Soviet Russia jokes in Slashdot discussion has gone down so far it's ridiculous. Use some originality. Stop making the jokes just for the sake of doing so; use them when they're actually funny, and actually make sense. For example, you might have tried, 'In Soviet Russia, Macs use Slashdot editors and programmers!' Sure, even that one's not funny, but it's better than your utterly nonsensical attempt at humor. Don't quit your day job. Why, in my day, In Soviet Russia jokes actually inverted a sentence from the article, none of this take-a-phrase-and-a-verb-and-stick-'you'-on-the-en d. Beam me up!
Wee !!
Taco's code is wacko today.
Despite what the average Troll on either side says, both do complement each other well. And when you mention Open Source to an Apple developer they light up, they truly do seem very pleased about having Linux/Open Source thriving.
But I am disappointed that Quicktime hasn't been released to Linux as a native app and iTunes still doesn't encode in Ogg yet.
StarTux
Since OSX , Mac OS has ben based on BSD. Thus porting between both is (should be) somewhat easy. Now with the XServer over OSX it will be even easyer!
But the interesting thing here is if MacOSX apps could be ported to linux?
Yay!, first post...
C-x C-c
I always knew that penguins prefer to eat small and soft fishes than Apples
getSexySig();
If this is as good at it gets I'm in deep trouble. One of the synergies between Mac OS X and Linux is that Matlab is available for the Mac again, after Mathworks had previously announced that would no longer release on the Mac platfrom. Very good news for me, however, Matlab for Mac OS X uses XDarwin and OroborOSX, and it's incredibly buggy. (I am using Simulink, which relies heavily on OroborOSX.)
What kinds of bugs you ask? I can't always navigate through the fields in parameter boxes (one button mac mouse and the key combos just don't do it). I can't use the letters 'f' or 'd' in comments when OroborOSX isn't in the mood (well, there are 24 other letters in the alphabet). Matlab crashes reliably if I choose "cancel" instead of "save" with the "save as" command (in a Simulink model).
And sometimes when Matlab crashes, XDarwin doesn't shut down completely which prevents me from being able to reboot from the system on my internal hard drive -- I have to reboot from an external hard drive and then restart. It happened (again) yesterday while I was working at a coffeeshop.
I'm not sure who's to blame here, and I'm really pleased that Matlab is available, but the integration of these various programs still has a long way to go.
blog-O-rama (more raving & ranting about my experiences with OS X, etc. etc.)
foldplay your photos won't know what hit them.
You'll still need decent hardware (128MB, >300Mhz) to fully appreciate Nautilus, but the same can be said about running Mac OS X.
Gnome is the closest living relative to NeXT/OpenStep or OS/2 Warp which both were truly wonderful environments but steamrolled into obscurity by the MS monopoly. Gnome and Linux are GPL'd so they can't be steamrolled off the market!
Gnome's the choice for a poor man since it runs on the commodity-priced x86 platform. Mac OS X is good value on Apple's reasonably-priced 'Books though.
Gnome's the choice for a free man since it allows the user to decide when to upgrade (and do it for free if desired) and on which iron to run it. Mac OS X, while nice, leaves the user at the mercy of Apple's whims. I talk from experience; Mac OS X won't run on my (back then) expensive PowerMac despite Apple's promises at the time.
Under Gnome-on-Linux users can run practically any type of apps, including classic Mac apps under Mac-on-Linux or Windows apps under WINE (only recommended as last resort IMO, won't work under PowerPC yet). Some KDE apps are truly great and they also run natively (it's all about the LIBS, not the windowmanager...). X, Java, console, emulators... it's all available.
PS. I'd buy one of those new 20" Apple displays if they came with a standard interface (namely DVI) instead of the proprietary ADC. I still want to see them around *innovating*, but not on their terms and at my expense...
Should invading one's peaceful neighbours be opposed, or rewarded with trade deals?
I laughed when I saw this story because just now I was trying to understand Apple's relationship with Linux regarding Quicktime. I complained earlier today to the U.S. Mint because of this page, which is a sublte advertisement for the Microsoft Media Player. WMP has significant proprietary features, and just linking to Microsoft as the sole standard implies something.
... I've written several emails to other government sites that sport the infernal "best viewed with Internet Explorer" links. I doubt I can take credit, but my state of Virginia dropped the MSIE tags. (They originally wrote back explaining, "Frontpage told us to say that." :)
... why was I hanging out at the U.S. Mint site? My 6 y.o. thinks the state quarter program is very cool, and the Mint even has a whole kids' site built around the damn things. I'm getting tired of state factoids, but am impressed by the savvy of the Mint. We've already calculated how much the Mint would make if everyone in the U.S. took a complete set of commemorative quarters out of circulation.
The immediate licensing problem in WMP may simply be a side effect of DRM, but of course Microsoft intends to use WMP as a wedge to push its own standards into what is now fairly generic commerce -- as it did with MSIE. I told the rep at the U.S. Mint (who knows if anyone will care) that it was unseemly for the government to tacitly endorse a private company by offering just one format, even providing a link to the company's site to get the player, especially where across town the government just recently busted Microsoft for monopoly abuse.
Anyway, Apple doesn't make a QT player for Linux (right?) but appears supportive of it (right?), and there are options to access QT content from *nix. Meanwhile, Microsoft's antagonism towards GPL is very well known, and may appear over WMP. Of course, generic MPEG does streaming, which QT plugins will play. (Also, there's Real, yech.) Maybe this is most another Windows versus Macintosh struggle, but I'd hate to see the government take sides, and I don't trust MS.
On standards and compatibility
BTW
The article makes a lot of good points, especially the fact that a lot of Linux users are picking up Apple portables. As a longtime Mac user I noticed this trend early last year on all the Mac boards I frequent. More and more Linux users were popping up talking not about how they "switched" but how they picked up an iBook to compliment their Linux desktop. The most common reasons for doing so seemed to be a combination of the stylish design of Apple's portable line, the slick GUI mixed with the familiar CLI and of course the long battery life.
:)
On the contrary, the adoption of OS X on the desktop by Linux users seems quite a bit lower in my experience. Perhaps this is a testament to the fact that Apple is losing the edge in price/performance in the desktop market (even among its own users) and that it's just so much geekier to build your own box.
Either way I agree that both systems compliment one another quite nicely. Then again, as a web developer I produce my sites on OS X, test them on XP and host them on Linux boxes so in my opinion all the OSes have something good to offer.
DigiSquid Design.
the day the editors all move to macs will be the day the editors fix the slashcode to remove dupes being posted! Vote CoyboyNeal for president.
Of course, if Apple integrated X11 to the point where you didn't run all X apps in the same memory/app space, it might be close enough for art..
what the...
In classic, the apps run as a single process (TruBlueEnv). If one app in classic misbehaves, it could bring down all of classic.. With X11.app, Xquartz is a separate process. xterm is a seperate process. xemacs is a seperate process.
Back in the day they used to fly a Jolly Roger (skull and crossbones) flag over corporate headquarters.
They basically ripped off Xerox Parc's windowing system and mouse interface ideas.
Don't turn your back on these guys for a second. This goes for 85% of the large businesses, for that matter. I have seen alot of business people's mouths moving and making sounds like "we want what is best for the community", while their actions say "profits at all cost - community be damned". The other 15% are somewhere in the middle; catch them on a good day...
While I may end up in a MAC (due to certain sadistic game makers failing to support open standards like OpenGL on Linux) - I will always have a Lintel box around for that warm fuzzy I get from compiling source code that I have lovingly massaged.
Lodragan Draoidh
The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
[snip]
1) the stability of linux
2) the price-point of linux
3) the beauty of the Aqua interface
there'd be no reason to ever own a windows machine again.
You're right, and Apple knows it. It'll never happen, because Apple also knows that there'd be no reason to ever own an Apple machine again[1].
This would be like OSX on ix86: it could be the death of Apple. You might think that there's a way for them to do it safely, but I doubt that the big cheeses at Apple agree strongly enough to gamble their company on it.
[1] Yes, many Apple loyalists would still buy Apple for the nifty hardware and low-hassle experience. They certainly wouldn't get any NEW customers this way; people who were interested in a do-it-yourself solution would put this on non -Apple hardware. It wouldn't be cheap, but neither is an Apple.
See what I've been reading.
Get and Aqua theme for enlightenment. I don't know what feautres you want, but you get the pretty stoplight buttons and clean interface.
Slashdot "editor" is a very loose term, you know...
... that IBM can't market anything. Where I work, we have this big black computer sitting in the middle of the computer room, that cost several thousand dollars, and has a support contract that probably costs several thousand more annually. It has IBM stamped on the side.
And have you used any of their modern laptops? The best description that I have for when I got to play with an IBM Thinkpad 240 for a week is 'precision'. The hardware felt like a precision piece of equipment. Everything had tight tolerances, the tactile feel of the unit was superb, and the machine just felt sexy. The sleek black case was both soft and firm at the same time, a cool trick of ABS plastic, yet didn't feel too weak or brittle to take on the road.
If IBM still made a laptop in that small of a form factor (its footprint was smaller than a piece of letter paper), I'd have one. The American market doesn't seem to want small machines right now, though.
Oh, one more thing, there was driver support for this machine (and many of the other brand new thinkpads) for as far back as Windows 95 and OS/2 Warp, and as far forward as Windows XP. Drivers that work properly, not half-assed drivers like Compaq and other large companies provide for products they're no longer making money on.
You can also still downloadd support files for machines as old as the original 8088.
If I need some really expensive piece of equipment, IBM is definitely on the list for a vendor.
IBM had PL/1, with syntax worse than JOSS,
And everywhere the language went, it was a total loss...
Yeah, it's been a long time since the horrid M$ office interface has bothered me. Auto-indent, auto -listing, auto-spelling, and all those other nasty auto-make your work take forever and look horrible stuff are fading from memory. That's because it has been about 8 months since I learned how to wade through the forrest of tabs required to turn those "features" off, and four months since I've been forced to use Office. I don't even want to think about what a terrible bug ridden easy to crash, no transaction "database" access was. Excell was OK, but the data format, like all M$ junk, kept changing and it's very dificult to get your work back out. It's good to be free of that.
Please, please, please keep that junk away from me and do not design interfaces like that. Ah the beauty of not seeing red and green squigly underlines beneath the repeated please above. When I need to spell check, I will. When I need a typesetter, I'll get one. When I want to hurt someone, I'll give them Word. There are so many superior free alternative, you have to wonder why people use Office.
What do the Apple people use these days, I wonder. I remember filemaker Pro was a very nice database. I can only imagine they had reasonable word processors and what not. M$ did not poison them too much when they bought so much of them in the deapest darkest days of Pepsi style Apple ruid, did they?
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
For 39 bucks from the Apple store you can buy an ADC to DVI adpater. If you're going to spend 2k on a display, you would think you'd do a little research first, eh?
I like big butts and I cannot lie.
Since Mac (OSX) runs Unix based now, the incompatabilities have been reduced greatly. While Mac still relies on proprietary hardware, some would argue that's a strength, not a weakness. Personally I like being able to customize what parts go in my machine, but on a Mac, you never have to worry about driver problems.
Microsoft Windows is the only operating system that isn't Unix based, and it will be their undoing. While technically Mac competes with Linux (from an economical standpoint), they're actually working together to pick away at Microsoft. If MS wants to stay in business, they had better go Unix-based too. I forsee the combined strength of the Unix-based operating systems eventually crushing MS.
But then again, that's just my 2 cents. (and a paperclip.)
You're right, I wouldn't steal a car. But if it were possible, I sure as hell would download one!
most of the Slashdot editors and programmers will be using Macs
Macs? Shoudn't be Emacs???
Rob Malda (cmdrtaco), Jeff Bates(Hemos), and Chris Nandor(pudge) are all using Mac laptops at least part of the time these days. Who else among the slashdot crowd is sporting either a PowerBook and/or an iBook?
http://tinyurl.com/4ny52
In the mean time, why not use the machine? It's got X11, right? Can't you just ssh into the beast and export all the apps you want? DVD burning and all that singing and dancing, why not have it? Apple is getting better, who knows, one day they may be free.
Everything looks nice in window maker.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Yonder lies the promise land, O dearly beloved, AMD, Intel, Windows XP! Uncle Steve has kept you captive long enough with his illusions and delusions!
Read "the writing on the wall" and like "where is the beef"? Go to Motorola's web site you will find no beef! If it causes you worry just accept it! peruse the Apple web sites, no beef, just dreams and wishful thinking!
Where is the proof of a G5, in reality it does not exit!
In the world of Intel, AMD, WINDOWS progress is a fast pace fact of life you have what is called tangible, Apple you have dreams and wishful thinking, and there is also bitterness and pc envy! PC s ridiculed and scoffed at by the mac community, now becoming a source of envy!
Beloved be no longer captive to delusions of the most modern, fastest supercomputers ever invented, but at least capitalize off of Apple's demise with some options trading! Turn those sour Apples into a hefty wad of cash! Do a little research. That hundred million bushels of sour rotting Apples can make you a fortune and real goose that lays the golden egg! Do some research on options trading, get your accounts open and rake in those bucks! Thank you AAPL for becoming a penny stock!!!
Repeal the DMCA!
Looking at this page would seem to say otherwise.
From what I can tell, the only thing they are giving back is some glue code to make KHTML run on Cocoa.
Linux will do all the giving, and Apple will do all the taking. I can't see how this will be anything but bad news for Linux. Apple gets to use anything that is written for Linux, and Linux gets to get sued for using anything Apple does.
And I'm still waiting for Apple to release the source code to their GNU Chess port, dammit.
Is this truly the only Earth I can live on?
Gnome is the closest living relative to NeXT/OpenStep or OS/2 Warp...
Can't say I follow this. OS X is the closest living relative to OpenStep. OS/2 Warp... Perhaps eCommStation? But that's barely alive, admittedly. Either way, I wouldn't liken GNOME to either of them. GNOME is a pretty close relative to Windows, as far as how the UI works.
That's not a troll or a dis. It's not my style (I prefer NeXTSTEP and the Newton OS as models of good UI), but a lot of people have grown up with Windows 9x/NT, so it's no surprise that the majority of the users who like GNOME share this background with the majority of GNOME developers. Having actually used OS/2, NeXTSTEP, OpenStep, Rhapsody, OS X 10.x, Windows and Linux+{GNOME, KDE} extensively, I think it's safe to say that GNOME works the most like Windows. I could go on and on why, but that probably be over kill.
That said, I must say I'm pretty impressed with GNOME in RedHat 8. A lot of people hate RH for it, but I think it's quite brilliant. As a person who switched from Linux to OpenStep four years ago and then to OS X in the last few years, I became pampered with the ease of use, and most importantly, the consistency provided in OpenStep and OS X. Not to mention the great feature that things usually "just work." I left Linux because it was so bloody consistent, from a GUI user's point of view.
I've had my fill of other modern distros as well. RH8 is far from perfect, but at the very least, it provides a taste of what potential GNOME and KDE holds, a pointer to the kind of consistency that distros, GNOME, and KDE should be working towards. I fear it won't get much better, considering that all too many Linux developers seems to think that appearance is what is worth copying from OS X, while the way things work- how they feel, seems to come from Windows or CDE. Bah.
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
I think the article has a good point (an obvious good point), which is that OS X gives UNIX a huge shot in the arm. Linux is one of the boats that this particular rising tide lifts :) It's much more likely that apps written for OS X are going to be portable to other UNIX derivatives than it is that the average software written for Windows would be, and as buzzwords go, the fact that Apple has been hollering about the "industrial strength" of UNIX is good for every *nix operating system. Apple has some respectable coattails :)
:) but in my current room stocked with too many computers, don't find that OS X on a 12" screen wins over a 21" monitor attached to an Athlon system running Red Hat. Granted, that's not a fair comparison: when I'm *traveling*, I like the iBook for its weight, decent battery life, and built-in DVD player (which I do not have on a Linux laptop at the moment).
:)
I've got an iBook, and Sure, would happily accept it if someone would like to throw me their 17" TiBook
OS aside, I'm glad Apple's making hardware worth buying again; 20" LCD for $1200 is something I hope will exert pressure on the price of smaller size LCDs
timothy
Or does my question not make sence? Darwin, Mach 3, BSD 4.4? What's the breakdown of Max OSX in regards to its technologies?
ADC is rather nice, overall -- and the fact that it's signal compatible with DVI is even nicer.
-
It's funny that everyone's jumping on the Apple bandwagon, when in the end they're just as monopolistic and money-driven as Microsoft (albeit a tad less successful).
Remember, Macs use a closed architecture. Apple lawyers rapidly pursue anyone who tries to produce and profit from a clone.
Hey, that's just great. That's really sharing technology for the benefit of others.
The only reason Apple is contributing/using open source is because a., they need the alignment and strength of the community to make inroads in the desktop market, thereby selling more hardware, and b., the community is opening its arms wide like a bunch of slack jawed yokels (doh!) lured by the seductive Unix-like qualities of Apple's *proprietary* OS.
I suspect in the end, the truth will make itself very evident. For now, I can only watch this virus propogate and hang my head in shame...
Unix is good. That's why.
-Former VMS User
Anonymous Hero
Trust a corporation, get burned. QED.
We GAVE them X11? Who is we? Nobody owns X11 to give. That's the point. it's free as in freedom for apple to to do what they please - like you do. Not just a little fanatical, are we?
Apple laptops are effectively unusable for unix users.
I am a long-time Unix user. That means I need to have the Ctrl key to the left of the A key. This is a genuine need, not merely a want; it is based upon ergonomics. The Ctrl key is heavily used in unix, and it must be easily accessable. It cannot be off in the lower left corner of the keyboard where it is difficult to get at, and where it distorts the position of your left hand such that you can't easily type other keys while holding the Ctrl key down.
Apple desktop keyboards are now all USB. They are all OK. The CapsLock key can be re-mapped into a Ctrl key.
Unfortunately, even in this modern age, all Apple laptops have built-in ADB keyboards. The ADB keyboard is broken-by-design. It is, in general, not possible to remap the CapsLock key into a Ctrl key.
There are some exceptions, but they are horrible kludges. They are horrible kludges because the original design of the ADB keyboard was a horrible kludge. The correct solution would be for Apple to re-design their laptop motherboards to use built-in USB keyboards. This hasn't happened yet. If you run Linux, use Debian's solution. For Mac OS X users, uControl works. There are no solutions (that I know of) for either NetBSD or OpenBSD. Please note once again that the "solutions" above are in fact kludges, because of the original bad design of the ADB keyboard.
Apple provides a technical note on how to remap the keyboard, but provides no solution to the hardware problems caused by the design of the ADB keyboard. This tech note helps foreign language users, but does nothing for the CapsLock/Ctrl problem.
Apple is (currently) ignoring Unix users! This is not merely speculation on my part. In an on-going email exchange I am having with an Apple employee (whom I won't name) in their marketing department, the Apple marketing person directly stated to me that Apple was catering to their historic Mac customers, and is purposely ignoring the Unix market. He also claimed that Apple would soon start paying more attention to the Unix market. I won't hold my breath. Apple has been ignoring Unix users for more than 12 years. I expect that trend to continue.
Apple has now lost two opportunities to sell me hardware. I really wanted an Apple laptop for their superior battery life, and for the PowerPC with Altivec CPU. (The Altivec is vastly superior to the x86 line for DSP.) Because I can't live with the broken-by-design built-in ADB keyboard in all Apple laptops, Sony and IBM sold me laptops instead. If Apple fixes this problem, they will sell me a PowerBook next year; if they don't, I'll still be running OpenBSD on x86 hardware, and wishing I could use a Mac.
That's the sound of LONGtime Macintosh fan gloating ... in a nice way. :)
You won't see me own a mac until the day comes that they open the hardware standards and there is good competition for hardware. In other words, until I can build a mac from spare parts, you won't see me owning one.
Apparently you've not heard of GNUstep. GNUstep is an implementation of the OpenStep API and includes most of Mac OS X's extensions.
:)
The GUI builder is almost done (I am the pricipal developer of it).
Take a look at http://www.gnustep.org.
GJC
Gregory Casamento
## Chief Maintainer for GNUstep
Hell, the display I was talking about was just announced a couple of days ago so I demand some slack! :^)
:^)
Umm, the ADC (Apple-only) -> DVI (generic) adapter is only good for relatively recent Macheads who want to use commodity flatpanels.
Anyways, after having another look I found Apple selling a DVI -> ADC adapter for US$99.
All things considered that's not too much extra to pay for an added inconvenience - althought it also encourages Apple to keep to its proprietary ways - but now I (the potential outside-Apple-market customer, my Macs are pre-ADC) must somehow ensure that this extraneous adapter doesn't cause any added complications under X-windows. Not that I'd expect any from a straight digital conversion but I've learned to be cautious over the years.
PS. The new 20" Apple flatpanels are actually just $1299 instead of the 2k you're talking about... Is that an acceptable excuse for my lack of research?
Should invading one's peaceful neighbours be opposed, or rewarded with trade deals?
I find it interesting how much Slashdot has love/hate relationships over different things. Take for example the war of words that went on with Slashdot about KDE. People where talking about how KDE programs broke from the true faith. There was flaimbaits about Troll Tech. And bashing of the QPL. Then discussion on "Project Harmony" to bring the community back together. And finally Troll Tech going GPL with Qt.
But now we have Apple with Aqua API and Carbon API. Apple has put their legal dogs on the Free Software and Open Source community time and time again. You would have thought that the legal "look-and-feel" wars would have ended when the courts got done with Lotus vs. Borland, but Apple is ready to show it can bully every little guy over look-and-feel all over again. In the past, we have worked towards compatiblity and portablity by cloning the API and look-and-feel. With OSI's Motif, we produced Lesstif that follows the same API and look-and-feel. When the license of Qt was in question, the Harmony project cloned the API and look-and-feel. Winelib makes porting Win32 apps easier because it clones the API and the look-and-feel. But, Apple has made it clear by drawing a line in the sand when it comes to both the API and the look-and-feel of Aqua and Carbon. Porting Aqua applications to an OS that doesn't have Aqua is non-trival. Porting Carbon applications to an OS that doesn't have Carbon is non-trival. And if we ever so slightly cross that line that Apple has drawn to try to make it easier in the long run to port application back then they will bully us again. Regardless of what percentage of modern KHTML is Apple contribution, I still see Apple as a bully and a leech. They do not play fair and it is by being a bully they hope to ensure that the MacOS X desktop becomes a superset of any other *nix desktop. Just like in a certain company's commerical about 1984, we are being told with lawyers that Aqua and Carbon can only be done one way from one company. If we continue the route that Apple being "friends" will lead us then we will see why 2004 will be like Orwell's 1984. We are now facing a much bigger threat than "QPL."
Yeah right. Next you'll be telling me that they use Linux!
(Sorry, a bit harsh of me, I suppose. I guess I thought everyone knew that everyone knew about the editors and their Macs.)
Boom Shanka
I said a living relative of Mac OS X... ;-)
Sorry for the unfunny joke; I actually kept up with GNUstep until a couple of years ago, always wishing the project well.
I know they've made progress since Apple finally started pushing the faithful towards the *step/yellowbox/Cocoa apps and it'd be great to have those apps available under GNUstep/Linux as well.
But I'd still prefer Gnome as the frontend for all this natural goodness.
Should invading one's peaceful neighbours be opposed, or rewarded with trade deals?
One iBook here
Anonymous, for obvious reasons
Of course, that might change in the future
The Raven
Will you ever quit bitching and go away?
YES! We get the point.
You can only use one kind of keyboard.
Pleeeeese stop.
But Apple has made the system much more proprietary and non-standard than it needs to be. The system administration database is different from mainstream UNIX systems made integrating the Macs into my home and work networks much more work than a Linux machine. The window system is completely different from UNIX, hard to port to, and rather sluggish. Apple's software package management is worse than even that of Windows. And the commercial software situation on Macintosh is not all that great either. A big disappointment, too, was that Apple had promised "free .Mac service with every iMac" and then started charging less than a year later.
Altogether, I think Apple has benefitted quite a bit from UNIX/Linux compatibility, by promising a no-hassles Linux-like environment and attracting some UNIX and Linux users. I don't think they really have delivered, and I will probably not be upgrading my Macs--I can get better functionality and more software for less money with Linux. On the other hand, Linux has not benefitted directly from OS X: there is little or no useful software that Apple has donated to the Linux community (Darwin is more of a distraction), and I don't think Apple's "switch" campaign has been all that effective.
I think in the long run, Apple will be forced to become more and more Linux compatible, and then maybe there will be more benefit to the Linux community. Until then, every Windows user that moves to Macintosh is still of some benefit to the Linux community.
This thread really makes me proud to be a Mac OS X user.
In no particular order:
/ 190248&mode=thread -- Apple SUED Macromedia to keep them from releasing a properly functional Linux player. Also don't bother me with 'but you can buy blah blah blah' or 'you can use unauthorized codec clone blah' -- I don't want nor should have to buy anything or break the law to watch what Mac and Windows users see legally for free.
1. Harrassing Aqua-ish theme makers. As Apple should know, you can't patent "look and feel" -- as their failed case against MS demonstrated.
2. Refusing to release a Sorenson codec enabled player or library for Linux, effectively locking Linux users out of an increasing majority of all Internet video content and thus making Linux unviable to end users. Don't bother me with 'it isn't Apple's' fault -- as was covered here months ago, IT IS! See http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/07/19
3. Undercutting development of established Open Source projects, like Mozilla and XFree86, by pushing less open alternatives and thus both cutting their mindshare and draining developer talent. And before someone replies 'but now it supports X11', the point is that they aren't the 'default' systems under MacOS -- which means "native" GUI MacOS X applications are useless to Linux, and pages coded for Safari will probably becoming increasing incompatible with Mozilla.
Apple is a parasite sucking the blood of the Open Source movement, and is actively working to destroy Linux as a viable solution. The "open" solutions Apple endorses (Quicktime, Safari) do not work on Linux and serve only to spur sales of MacOS X.
In short: Apple is not Linux's friend, and these articles that claim otherwise are stupid and tiresome. Jobs may be fooling the moronic majority, but that isn't everyone. FUCK YOU, JOBS.
CmdrWass wrote: "You won't see me own a mac until the day comes that they open the hardware standards and there is good competition for hardware. In other words, until I can build a mac from spare parts, you won't see me owning one."
... can't count video cards, I guess) that Macs are less different from PCs than they used to be in the days when just exchanging floppies between Windows and Mac OS was a big pain. Now (for instance) I frequently transfer things between Mac and Linux machine with a little 65MB memory key that cost me $35 at a computer show :) (And next year, maybe 128MB will cost the same amount ...) I have an external CD burner that works under Linux and Mac OS X, scanner likewise. Enough components live *outside* the box that the computer itself isn't always as important as it seems ...
... even if no one else can produce Macs per se, Apple knows that they are not alone in the world, and the ability to switch hardware platforms without switching OS has got to affect their pricing. (Not that Apple laptops are badly priced, all things considered ... go price some non-Apple 17", super-thin, aluminum-clad notebooks;)) Even though it's not direct, it's definitely competition. And that's just for people willing / anxious to run Free software; even for Mac OS-only users, Windows laptops (which cannot run OS X) are obviously competition; people need computers, not necessarily Apple computers.
Instinctively, I agree with that -- don't want to be stuck with something dependent on one company etc.
However, a couple of things mitigate that fear:
- there are enough standard-enough parts n' ports (ethernet, CD-ROMs, firewire and USB, IDE hard drives, etc
- file formats: there are quite a few that are legitimately cross platform. Depending on what you do with a computer, they might not fill all your needs, but for many people, RTF / PFD / html / JPEG / mp3 / ogg and other very cross-platform file formats mean a lot more than the OS being used to open / use / manipulate / save them. Double-edged sword, though, since so many apps love to create difficult-to-share filetypes by default, so if that *is* a concern, it is probably a deal killer. [Ahem]
- there are non-Apple OSes that run on Apple's hardware (a few varieties of Linux, and at least the three biggest *BSDs). Now I'll admit this is a roundabout argument, but
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
I just got rid of my old ass compaq laptop with a 12" screen (actually it died) and was more than happy to pick up one with a 14.1" screen and this bigger one weighs nearly 2lbs less. I hope I never have to use another notebook with a 12" screen :/
I have an iBook.
... my sister's iBook had a broken D key, and I snapped off my delete key when I installed the Airport card); trackpad (it'll never happen, but how I wish Apple instead of IBM had invented the eraserpoint); power cord (feels flimsy, slips out unbeknownst to the user ...); speed (though I'm spoiled by the speed of Blackbox and other Linux WMs).
Good things: sharp screen; moderate weight; decent battery life; built-in DVD player; user interface in general and specifically OS X (which became usable enough with 10.2 that I have not booted into OS 9 since upgrading); decent included apps; above average case design (like the magnetic hinge with nothing to snag on); iMovie; iTunes (which now supports ogg); internal 802.11 (which can turn an equpped iBook into a wireless basestation).
Mediocre things: speakers (lousy, even at close range); keyboard (awful; about average for laptops and better than many, but still awful
Depending on what you think about software, the fact that OS X is closed source may bother you, may not. I prefer Free software in general; so far though, I've been reluctant to risk disappointment / problems, and I have kept OS X on the iBook.
However, when I'm at home, OS aside, I generally prefer a big monitor, a responsive keyboard, and a quicker-feeling machine, which is why I type this from a machine running Mandrake 9, and am installing Red Hat on another machine yea verily even as I type this.
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
for obvious reasons...
I love mac, they love me, steve is my best buddy.
he is like god.
I own this site and I use a mac..
1) Did you think Apple should cater first and foremost to the huge market of UNIX users clamoring for Mac hardware, or to their existing customers? Seems to me that by taking care of Mac users and getting them to switch to OS X is a pretty high priority.
2) Even so, Apple seems to be doing a fair job of paying attention to the UNIX market. I mean, OS X is an implementation of UNIX, which makes Apple the largest volume distributor of UNIX boxes in the world. If that equates to ignoring the UNIX market, I'm not sure if our definitions of "the UNIX market" are the same.
Macs don't have the keyboard layout you'd like, which is a shame. Hopefully Apple will soon fix the situation to your satisfaction. But I think it's something of an overstatement and a distortion to say that Apple is not paying attention to the UNIX market, simply because of these keyboard issues.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
Say, apple releases the OneButton Mouse Driver (TM) 1.0 under BSD licence. they then go on to develop it and release 1.3 binary-only. there's still no way they could take 1.0 away from the community. i think that's what the parent of your post meant.
Free as in mason.
This is exactly how I feel. I just purchased a new powerbook because I have been looking for a laptop to complement my linux desktop for a while, and now that apple sells 3 types of PB's (affordable, less affordable, and #!@#$%#@!!!!), and they are currentlty some of the best laptops in the world, in my opinion. However, I would NEVER fork out the dough for a Mac desktop. Their simply not worth the money. As for XP... I have gained an appreciation for it because of its driver support and general not-so-stupidness (as opposed to win98), but still I say fuck off to Microsoft, they offer nothing to me.
The BSDs have linux emulation, and are much more closely related to OS/X from a userland perspective ... which is why they're not likely to "die" any time soon :)
smash.
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
Say, you do keep that comment in a file, or do you go back to your old comments and copy-and-paste ?
Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1992-1951
Well, if it took you 8 months to figure out some trivial settings then you shouldn't be aloud near a computer...well I guess you can use a Mac then.
Hmmm, you are confused. Eight months ago, I took the time to figure out how to turn all that XP crap off. It took me a week or two because the damn "features" kept turning themselves on until you figured out the double secret key punch to kill them. About four months ago, I quit using office all together thanks to a job change. I would have been happy to be using anything else.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
The X apps are normal Unix processes, each has it's own memory space.
As mentioned in other posts, if the file format had been open and documented there would not really be an issue. However, since legacy formats are starting to punish businesses with real costs, the issue can no longer be ignored, even by those that don't/can't plan ahead.
DMCA and EUCD are two additional reasons for migrating from legacy formats. These two could legally prevent businesses (and agencies) from accessing their own documents if encoded in undocumented, proprietary formats and the tools to manage these formats are no longer licensed.
Chip, yes, but it MS-Office revenue will collapse like a sand castle when it goes -- but that's a separate thread. Since Microsoft has alrady taken a publicly stated position against the open file formats, the collapse will only reduce the overhead costs of businesses, agencies and citizens.Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
And you shouldn't be let near a keyboard, you can't even spell "allowed."
If anybody here had their heads on straight, people would be trying to clone Aqua for Linux - NOT putting nasty Xfree86 on a perfectly good OS. Seriously, I hope somebody reads this and is in a position to actually fix the problem.
just like the humble blood clot... turboporsche@telus.net
So, if you're a fag, I guess you'll be spooging all over it.
Check out my ghey articles and linux pseudo-contributions!!
It seems that User-Mode-Linux developers are not familiar with another UML which is Unified Modeling Language. I always suspected that linux developers are a bit ignorant.
I talk from experience; Mac OS X won't run on my (back then) expensive PowerMac despite Apple's promises at the time
Out of curiosity which PowerMac are you talking about and from back when? I run Jaguar (aka OS X v.10.2.x) on (among other things) a five year old Biege PowerMac G3, and I know of people running it (unsupported) on even older systems
how many OSes are there out there that you can run the latest version of on Hardware that's half a decade out of date?
Great news for you.
Penguins are to found as far north as the Galapagos Islands. That's a stone throw from the Equator. So I guess that Apples & Penguins will start bobbing up everywhere ! Cheers
...when Apple decided to go UNIX, I predicted that the popularity of UNIX will skyrocket, not only in users, but developers.
I used to work in Graphics (prepress) and we had Photoshop and Illustrator on IRIX (SGI's UNIX implementation). It ran like a champ. I _KNOW_ there is a port for these programs and I suspected many more. Porting will be less of a problem from MacOS X to/from Linux than rewriting to XP or the next Windows OS.
Baseline aregument: If its for one, It can be for all.
INSERT INTO comment VALUE('Doh!') WHERE user='you';
It would establish QuickTime as the premier portable media format.
While Linux isn't a force on the desktop, it is pretty important among the technicians in the server rooms, and these guys often get to make technical decisions such as "which media format to use". As long as it is convenient to play on MS Windows, their bosses don't really care. Unless they have just been visited by a MS sales representive, they will leave the decision to the technicians.
How much did Apple give back to the BSD peeps, that's the real test.
Also, is Apple going to sue KDE for lookie likie themes
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
+1 dual CPU desktop
three of these things belong together,
three of these things are kinda the same,
but one of these things is doin' it's own thing,
now it's time to play our game...
As a longtime user of Mac, Unix and Windows, I respect the first 2 groups much more than the pure Windows users. Generally speaking, people chose Mac or Linux over Windoze for good reasons such as technical or design superiority, ease of use, style, productivity, TCO, security, bad experiences with Windoze, refusal to reward the convicted Redmond monoplist for its bad practice, etc, and they tend to be more articulate and intelligent than the Wintel PC crowd who either think Windows is the only thing in the computing universe or Linux is too complicated or Mac is too expensive and slow and has no software or second mouse button. Everytime a PC hothead lost his argument, there is always the last defense: why is everyone using Windows if Mac and Linux are so good?
Personally, I think both Mac and Linux platforms badly need the critical mass to break the MS monoply, and the best way to achieve that goal is to help each other. I am not suggesting that MS should be elliminated altogether, but the economy and the computing industry are desperately in need of several viable alternatives and adequate ecological diversity to be heathy and prosperous, and MS is just too nasty to be trusted to control our destiny. Without the design flair and innovation of Apple and the spirit diversity of the Open Source community, the computing world would be such a boring place.
Since you can run MacOS X as a user process on a PPC Linux box with MacOnLinux, there's no doubt left that the opposite could be achieved as well.
In 95 when powerpc's and risc were the new buzzwords I wanted a mac so bad. I had WIndows 3.1 and a defective motherboard(didn't know it at the time). My system crashed ever 3 to 4 hours and even froze up in DOS. I hated it, the dos and WIndows3.1 memory limitations not to mention powerpc's at the time were twice as fast. Motorolla fucked apple bigtime recently while AMD/INTEL got into a speed race leaving apple in the dust. I wanted to be different and run a risc processor to impress my friends.
Today I enjoy FreeBSD and Windows2k. Pallidium and drm scare the crap out of me. Mainly because palladium will require modifications to the cpu, memory, and every component into a trust relationship anti-tamper proof nightmare.
Its my dam computer and if I can't use it then I don't own it. Drm is a blaspheme in the regards that it takes a public copyrighted work and turns the ownership to the creator. To make things even more extreme, they now want to own your possesions are you purchase them! First right of first sale need not implied. Legally the items are still yours but your own items will work agaisnt you and serve MS and Hollywood.
Sure macs are slow, expensive, lack alot of games and other software products but dam its mine! I am wating for the powerpc 970 which will make things hell of alot faster and competitive again. I have a feeling if palladium turns into a situation where you can't turn it off then you can expect Linux to take a noise dive and leave IT along with opensource software altogher. WHy? Because if redhat can't stay in bussiness and all the new kernel hackers prefer macs, then Linux will become the next sco and IT managers are scared of being obsolence and leaving the heard.
I personally believe this is Microsoft's plan.
Its the same fud that killed borland and hurt unix when NT became popular 7 years ago. MacOSX may be the only free unix left that won't be shunned by IT. Yes Linux is hot now but after people can no longer run it under commidity hardware it will become a SCO.
http://saveie6.com/
Apple hardware. Very sexy, reliable, very intruiging, none of the crap of x86. Linux and Apple hardware seem a nice blend.
In fact, I will buy a Powerbook right now. Fortunately Apple has seen the light, and I can buy one to run Linux without paying the MacOS X tax.
What? The new Powerbooks have soft modems? No problem! Apple "gets it"! I'll just ask for the specs and write my own driver!
Oh wait, I can't do either of these things. And more! Apple doesn't "get it" at all! I've been deceived by the people telling me that they Thunk Differently.
Long live closed source and empty promises!
Where is the comment "Real man use Linux" !!!????
What is happening to Slashdot!!!
Don't mod me offtopic, but the same thing goes for office chairs.
Some people think it's crazy to shell out $800 for an nice ergonomic office chair, but they will think nothing of spending an extra $1000 for leather in their cars.
1.5 hours a day in the car.
8-12 hours a day in the chair.
-- "The reward of suffering is experience." - Aeschylus
As the battle raged on in to 2003, the Anti-Mac orcs having been robbed of almost all tangible ammunition, retreated behind the "Macintoshes are for homosexuals" blanket.
It was evident at that point that they were sure to lose the greater battle, and eventually the great war...
I've been using octave as a replacement for Matlab with pretty good success. It's easy to install with fink on MacOSX. I'm running it with the Apple X11. Just do a 'fink install octave'.
I'm surprised that anyone could mention what Macs and Linux have in common without mentioning the GNUstep project. GNUstep is an implementation of OpenStep, which is the basis for the Cocoa API on the Mac. There are GNUstep apps today that can be compiled under Cocoa. GNUstep still has a ways to go before its finished, but anyone wanting to make Mac apps work on Linux and vice versa should check it out.
I have never been happier with my home office setup: an iBook on my desk (with the improved Mac X server :-) networked to a dual-processor Linux box in a closet (so I don't hear it).
I do a lot of AI work, and having the Linux box for long machine learning runs, etc. and for hosting experimental sematic web stuff is great - that leaves my iBook for most coding, running design tools, Microsoft Office, etc.
Apple's recent release of a customized X server really helps a lot (still some work needs to be done on it though). Linux KDE applications look great (fonts!) using the iBook display.
Anyway, I feel like I get both the fun and productivity of Linux with the great experience of OS X. Perfect!
-Mark
Timeo idiotikOS et dona ferentes
The .doc format hasn't changed since Office 97. Though I agree with the general point about MS changing formats so no one can make an effective clone.
It seems to me that your price of 25,000 dollars just goes to show how spoiled you make yourselves. I work for Dana and know a car is perfect for about 100,000 miles, so if I pay 6-10 grand for one with 45K then that is smart, oh and to the way above, What Mac user keeps his laptop for 5 years? and your only talking laptops, what about for people with desktops, a self built desktop can cost 2 grand less than a mac desktop. 200% overpriced is too much for me.
Weren't you paying attention to how much of Microsoft Bill Gates owns. I got bad news for you
o n/ econ.1.html
After 18 months of dramatic losses and dwindling market share for Apple, Jobs said Microsoft will invest $150 million in Apple and continue writing software for its Macintosh computer.
http://csmweb2.emcweb.com/durable/1997/08/08/ec
Bill Gates is buying up Apple to save it's butt. So lay off Microsoft otherwise you wont' have your precious hippy computers.
Father Randy O'Day, is that you????
http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/DVI_monitor_cab les.html#adc
Has a neat summary about DVI at the bottom of the page.
ADC is pretty similar to DVI-I in that it carries USB, Digital, and Analog video signals.
Here is a link http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/hardware/Devel oper_Notes/Macintosh_CPUs-G4/PowerMacG4Cube/trin-5 7.html all about ADC connector and the signals it carries.
I'm not a Mac geek, although I've used Macs in the past. My cousin, however, is a dyed in the wool Mac fan. Between his rants plus just staying up on technology in general I think I've got a pretty good handle on what's real and what isn't in the Mac world. As usual, there are grains of truth behind the myths. I'll answer the ones I know.
:)
:)
"Ripped off Xerox"
Back in the '80s Steve Jobs managed to wangle a tour or four at PARC for himself and some other Apple types to see the windowing system that Xerox researchers were working on. The researchers were ordered to show the Apple team members how things worked.
At least one key member of the team objected strenuously to giving any information to Apple without any sort of benefit for Xerox. (no NDA, no financial compensation, no limits on the information that was being given away, etc.) She was ordered to comply anyway.
Was Xerox 'ripped off'? Not really. Was the management team at Xerox incredibly incompetent not to take even the most basic steps to protect their research investment? Absolutely.
"Can't use multi button mouse"
Hasn't been true for a long time. However, it's still the hardware configuration on laptops. And before you ask, I have never liked the "ctrl+mousebutton" combination.
"Uses non-standard hardware"
Yup. What did you expect? Apple still sees itself as a hardware company.
Seriously, though, if you're talking about peripherals that's not really accurate. PCI and AGP hardware and drivers are available that can be bought from a variety of vendors. I don't know if IDE controllers are there. I assume there are.
"Is a monopoly"
Of what? Their own hardware? Sorry, that's not how everyone else in the world sees the desktop/server market.
"Owned by Microsoft, a major shareholder"
This dates back to the huge influx of cash that Microsoft injected into Apple some years ago. At the time, I think it made Microsoft Apple's single largest shareholder behind Steve Jobs. I remember wondering what impact if any this might have on Apple. There was some speculation by conspiracy fans then that Microsoft might buy out Apple entirely and cut Intel out of the business.
In fact, it's clear now that it was part of a defensive strategy on Microsoft's part to try to convince the US DOJ that it wasn't a monopoly by showing that there was competition in the market. In order for that strategy to work, there had to be at least one other viable desktop vendor out there. At that time, Apple was the only other player in the market that was worth a damn in terms of marketshare, but they were in deep trouble financially.
Microsoft almost HAD to give Apple some money if their strategy was to pay off. Obviously, the strategy failed (witness the conviction).
"Costs too much"
Compared to what? For what it does, the Mac line is very reasonably priced now. However, IMO it was definitely overpriced for quite a while in the '90s.
"OS X is slow"
Well, if you're trying to run a modern OS on ancient hardware, yes it'll be slow. If you're running OS X on modern hardware and you've upgraded to the latest release it runs just fine.
As an aside, one of the reasons I like both BSD and Linux is the ability to strip down the OS to run on some really lightweight platforms. OS X is not designed for that because, as I've already noted, Apple is a hardware company. It's not in their best interests to make it easy to run OS X on platforms like the old Mac Classic.
I suppose you could probably get at least part of it to run on a Classic since OS X uses BSD in its core. No one but an obsessive geek with way too much time on his hands would even try. Oh, wait.
"Lawsuits for no reason"
The only example I can think of was the lawsuit against Microsoft for the use of the windows paradigm for a UI. A frivolous lawsuit on its face for a variety of reasons. I don't know of any in the same vein in the last 5 or 10 years. Does anyone more knowledgeable than I about Apple care to elaborate?
"Rips off Linux"
Umm, no. There are a number of GNU tools available as part of the OS X package, but as long as Apple follows all the rules in the GPL they're not ripping off Linux. And, since Apple uses a BSD kernel and not the Linux kernel, this is false on its face. Unless you've dug into the source for the BSD kernel Apple is running and can show that they're using GPL'ed code from the Linux source tree. No? Didn't think so.
This is a propietary platform isn't it? How come all of a sudden we love Mac's when we can't even build one? bah. humbug.
Remember, the DMCA's (overly reaching) powers are granted to the copyright holder who tries to protect his own works by placing technological barriers around them. In your example, an office-software vendor tried to place technological barriers around works that they did not own. The DMCA does not apply.
Easy, automatic testing for Perl.
"That Apple would Aquafy X11 is really a great step forward, and hopefully means that -- and this is key -- Apple will start shipping Macs with X11 preinstalled."
For those who need a compatibility sandbox, this is good. For those who are people who just want to use their computer, they'll not want it. Instead they'll want the old X11 software properly ported to Aqua and following Apple's L&F standards. L&F standards only work if everyone follows them, and adding X11 in doesn't do that.
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
Next thing you know, most of the Slashdot editors and programmers will be using Macs ...
:-P
you mean as opposed to windows, right?
The word you are looking for is "complement," not "compliment."
-Your friendly neighborhood vocab-nazi
in: Chess/Contents/Resources/COPYING
GNU CHESS GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE
Copyright (C) 1986,1987 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies of this license, but changing it is not allowed.
The license agreements of most software companies keep you at the mercy of those companies. By contrast, our general public license is intended to give everyone the right to share GNU Chess. To make sure that you get the rights we want you to have, we need to make restrictions that forbid anyone to deny you these rights or to ask you to surrender the rights. Hence this license agreement.
etc.
-- It only takes 20 minutes for a liberal to become a conservative thanks to our new outpatient surgical procedure!
there are plenty of awesome themes for Mac OS X.
s .htm
here are a fews:
http://homepage.mac.com/max_08/index_theme
looks like more then blue or gray to me.
Apple is dumb if they don't bond well with the linux community. But then again I never underestimate Apple's ability to shoot itself in the foot.
Little note, here: there was no System 7.3. There was System 7.0, 7.0.1, and 7.1 (which I think only had a 7.1.1 and 7.1.2), then System 7.5. There was, however, a System 7.5.3, but that wouldn't have booted that fast on the SE.
Lose essential liberties to get temporary safety = get only hassles and security theater.
With laptops things are different. I think that there Apple is very competitive with x86 offerings, depending upon how you use them.
Anyway, if the 970 ends up being on the same level as the high end P4 and the Athalon-64 I think you'll start to see a lot more desktop switchers.
Twirlip:
Just so you know - even when pointed to the KDE cvs logs, where one can see the SAFARI_MERGE branch, this corebreech guy still claims the code isn't being released.
You just can't reason with some people, I guess.
Or what if you actually want to make a living and need Office to communicate with your clients?
Having major commercial apps on a UNIX based platform is the best of both worlds to a growing number of users.
"Form should follow function...unless it's just plain ugly."
"Next thing you know, most of the Slashdot editors and programmers will be using Macs" ..and the readers would rater spend $200 on a box from Wal-Mart running Ark, Debian, or Red Hat then a WAY OVERPRICED, incompatable with most applications, and propretary format.
/. even carries a Mac section.
I still cannot believe
I'm sorry, did you miss that? He didn't say self-built, he said store bought. He also made a pointed comment about PC users being retarded. You just proved his point.
Putting this here where it'll be near the top since the editors didn't see fit to post a story about it.
sudo softwareupdate iMovie-3.0.1
sudo softwareupdate iPhoto-2.0
Weeee!!!!
You have "issues."
I'm one those weirdos who still doesn't like OS X, for a variety of reasons. I like Apple's hardware, particularly the G3 Pismo, and I'd love to buy one on eBay if I had the money - but Linux would have to go on it. Maybe NetBSD too, just for the hell of it. But MacOS X would only run in MoL, if at all. I just hate not having full control over my computer. I don't get control on Windows, but I do on Linux. Why would I want to use another platform where I don't get the control I want?
Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
Max: "I'd be peeing my pants if I wore any!"
OS X, *BSD, Solaris, Linux, and all other *nixs are all work simular in a programming point of view. Sure there may be some differences in some areas but most applications port easaly from one OS to an Other. So if a lot of people start using OS X with X11 they will start writting applications that work in OS X with X11 knowing that they can easally port it to an other OS. Programmers if given the choice they would normally want to make their programs to run on as many systems as possible. So if they make a OS X app then the figure they can easly port it to other OSs. Unfortunatly windows is designed so differently then Unix that porting applications usually takes way to much effert.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
You're right, you can't build a Mac using non-Apple guts, at least when it comes to the motherboard. (The peripherals are pretty standard, though.) If that's the biggest factor to you, then I can't make you think otherwise, and wouldn't want to :) Though I like my iBook, and find that moving stuff between the iBook and my Linux systems is not the pain that it once was, for non-portables I currently prefer X86 machines for the same reasons you name.
:) My compact shuttle case is a bit precious, too, but to me it's at least somewhat more neutral and utilitarian looking. So long as it runs a nice OS with loads of software available, I don't care what the chip is; if Shuttle decided to get into the PPC market and sell little "almost Mac cubes" on which I could run, say, Yellow Dog linux, I'd be interested. Terrasoft is selling some big Antec-cased PPC systems, but I may have already purchased my last way-too-big computer. (And their little Bricks, though cool, seem like more money than I want to spend on a fairly limited machine ...)
Likewise with the preference for internal vs. external storage etc; I like external devices for their portability and interchangeability -- for me, it's a lot simpler to move an external CD burner from machine to machine than actually install / uninstall / reinstall an internal one, and it means I don't have to buy a burner for each machine. Everyone will have different tradeoff points, and it sounds like ours are very different. Nothing wrong with that!
File formats / data exchange are what matter more to me; one big reason I generally prefer open software (open source / Free) is that it encourages open file formats. I'd like to be relatively unconcerned with the actual hardware doing the work as I write, draw, search for a link on google, etc, as long as I can move stuff from one machine to another as necessary / appropropriate / useful / fun.
My biggest objection to Macs (esp. the desktop ones) is aesthetic -- they're just too precious. I like computers to be less conspicuous than Apple does. Can't blame the designers, who want to make them distinctive and interesting, but I *can* disagree with their design choices
Cheers,
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
I use MySQL (LAMP...Linux/Apache/MySQL/PHP) for rapid prototyping...that and running large music databases just for fun. I use PHPMyAdmin so that I don't have to hand roll. I use WebMin so that I can have a general front end. Both work remotely. I hate doing stuff by hand. The whole point is to put up db's quickly without being dragged down. There are many such tools, and I control my db's...they don't control me.
Sorry, but this thread is pretty funny to me. I'm not faulting your procedures or practices. I'm simply listing what I do on my computer. And what I do leads to frameworks that are either forwarded or dropped. If they are accepted as proposed, then they are redone for all appropriate criteria. Sure, I've had hits and misses, but they've all shared the same beginnings. I'm sure you are proud of your process. My means help lead me to and end. Nothing wrong with that as I see it.
When you begin to insist on structured protos, for stucture's sake, you move away from the initial consideration. Logic. The day we decline an idea based on a checklist is the day we stop improving. Does the phrase 'think out of the box' ring a bell? I could argue that it's possible to prototype a 'proper' database with twinkie wrappers, if the person doing the thinking has enough DB sense. Given proper credentials, I'd wager you'd take any proto from the right person. When I speak of prototypes, they are just that....a strawman application put up solely to test an overall hypothesis. No one is claiming anything beyond that, and again, I'm amused you find something...anything...to contest.
I think if you backed off and took a friendly look at what I'm actually doing, you'd laugh along with me. Maybe your pants are too tight, or you're joking...I don't know....:)
The downloadable Webcore has updated KHTML code from 3.0.2. You can download stuff from KDE CVS and do the diff yourself if you doubt this. No need to re-integrate the SAFARI_BRANCH code.
As for the embeddable HTML component - search for "Safari SDK" on the following link.
Or read Dave Hyatt's blog (where he says the same thing) here.
Or see what the folks at Omnigroup are saying
here and here.
The Apple link I pointed to before has the following paragraph. You were apparently too damn lazy to do the search I mentioned, so I'll reprint it here.
Hey - look - an embeddable cocoa component. No, it's not ready yet. But Safari (and webcore) are still beta - the SDK comes out when webcore gets finalized.
Fixed Dave Hyatt link (posting on January 17, 5:10 PM) here.
Quoting again (following a quote from the above ADC link)
And as far as your delusional assertion that a) Apple's sticking with a branch of KHTML 3.0.2 which isn't being released or that they're not integrating things back from KHTML, further quotes from Hyatt's blog:
Lars being Lars Knoll, KHTML developer.
And finally, talk of a unified codebase here
Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.
You're calling me dumb?
You've basically acknowledged that everything I've said is true in this message!
That Apple might someday release an SDK has never been questioned. I do however expect it to be a subset of what is provided in Safari. This is clearly the case given the way they are handling WebCore *right now*. There is absolutely no reason for not releasing their improvements to KHTML right now other than using open source for their gain while limiting our gain from the same code.
Remember the context of this thread. Does Linux help Apple and vice versa? This is an excellent example of why the latter is most certainly not the case.
Is this truly the only Earth I can live on?
...lame Slashdot joke does down on you!