Slashdot Mirror
Bookseller Purges Records to Avoid PATRIOT Act
Skyshadow writes "Vermont Bookseller Bear Pond Books has announced that they will purge their sales records at the request of customers . This would effectively sidestep typically insideous a provision of the PATRIOT Act which allows government agencies to secretly seize sales records. The store's co-owner, Michael Katzenberg, put it this way: 'When the CIA comes and asks what you've read because they're suspicious of you, we can't tell them because we don't have it... That's just a basic right, to be able to read what you want without fear that somebody is looking over your shoulder to see what you're reading.' Now if only certain other booksellers would show that same conscience, we might have something here."
Vote some decent congressmen in and maybe we can win the country back!
Does this remind anyone of Farenheit 451? You know, where they burn the books so people won't revolt against the government? This is a similar restriction placed upon our libraries and bookstores that silences any mention of a subpoena for a list of books a certain individual has purchased or borrowed.
I still don't understand how Mr. Ashcroft and his DoJ thugs got PATRIOT through Congress. Oh wait, I forgot! Our US Congress was so freaked out by September 11 and thought that somehow if they took away Americans' right to privacy and freedom from harassment that this world would somehow be a better place!
$DEITY bless $NATION
Where's a HERO tag when you need one?
Really, what does the government gain by knowing what books each person has recently bought? I mean, if someone has purchased dozens of books about terrorism and bomb-making, I'm sure there would be more obvious and meaningful evidence of wat they plan to do than just what books they have.
I mean, some college kid does a paper on terrorism and in the process buys a few books on the subject, then all of a sudden this kid is getting a call about those books. I don't want to feel as though I might "get in trouble" if I buy or borrow a book on a questionable subject.
Aren't you Americans glad you live in such a free country? Aren't you glad your beloved constitution actually MEANS something?
...and don't worry...OUR fun loving Canadian government will follow right along in due course.
Welcome to the NEW New World Order.
The Patriot Act is a violation of what my father fought for in Korea and Vietnam, and what I stood for while in the military.
I am upset that people are associating the Patriot Act with conservatism. Violation of my rights isn't conservative, its facism. Fellow conservatives need to speak up. We DO need some stronger laws and enforcement tools, and I do believe this is a passing problem, but only if we speak up.
Some may compare our current situation to that during the Civil War (oxymoron if there ever was one) when Lincoln suspended Habius Corpus, but I don't feel the two events can be compared in this way. The threat is real, more real than that era, but not as localized.
Until then, destroying sales records is a legal way to not comply with this over reaching Act. Hopefully, others will follow their lead.
Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
They shouldn't be keeping records about who buys what books in the first place. I know what I buy, and I have the ability to look for new reading material in catalogs, libraries or via social contacts. Why is a bookseller keeping track of my book purchases any better than a government keeping track?
But still, why should I trust this bookseller? Sure, they claim that they won't manage any lists of customer purchases... but how do I, as a customer, know that they don't have some lists somewhere?
And even if they don't have lists, they might have knowledge in their heads or on scraps of paper or whatever. All this is fair game when it comes to the law... perhaps just not as accessible as an explicit list.
I remember when my sister was asked about her former (fired) boss by her new boss. "Don't worry", he said, "we'll seal all this so that you can talk freely".
Nothing was written down. But when the new boss took the stand, he discussed the details of what my sister had said.
So much for records; so much for corporate promises.
The CIA does not, and is not allowed, to opperate within the borders of the united states. It may be the FBI or NSA that comes looking but CIA is strictly for international matters.
And I highly doubt they would be interested in what books a person reads, but that's just me.
charge the bookstore for subverting a law ?
I mean, they're out in the public saying they're knowingly taking steps to hinder a possible request from the Feds for information.
Purging sales records is one way to get a government agency off your back. Unless it's the IRS.
I wonder if the management has thought through all the implications of their new policy.
It wouldn't take much to add a provision (were it passed) to make retention of such records mandatory. Rather like walking in to see a psychologist here (Canada) and asking him/her not to keep records, knowing that they could be subject to subpoena -- they'll tell you they must by law keep records, with certain minimum information.
On another sobering note, in 1983 the Supreme Court of Canada allowed evidence of a newspaper clipping found in an accused's home as sufficiently probative to admit, despite the potential prejudice of propensity evidence -- aka: "See? He's the kind of person who would do this." He had been charged with heroin smuggling from Hong Kong. The article was titled: "The heroin trade moves to Pakistan." This flew in the face of all caselaw on that point, but has been followed since. The lesson being: what you read can be held against you! The case is R. v. Morris [1983] 2 S.C.R. 190, if anyone is interested.
This is overall a great thing, but still an elaborate publicity stunt ;-). I'm pretty surprised that this made /. news, but then again.
--sex
Very popular slashdot journal for adul
I was, as a result of this post, going to create a list on Amazon cataloging a number of books that might make the government look at me a little closer. Little did I know, someone had already done just that :\
Here.[amazon.com]
Interesting, but I would like to go there dressed up as a Yasser Arafat look alike and ask for books about "Jihad", the World Trade Center, and the Okhlahoma City bombings. Then I'd like to see if they really would not cooperate with the CIA.
Also, wouldn't a bookworm terrorist just purchase books in cash and give a false name and zip code? Kind of defeats the whole tracking thing.
Anybody remembers that AD that shows how america would have been if everybody was not free? The one that takes place in a library... Where a guy is gonna get arrested...
Remember that???
that some are opposing such horrible violations of our rights. I only hope that they do not pay a terrible price for fighting against this.
The truely sad part of this, is that this is not the worse. This admin has been not only stealing so many of our rights, but also taking away our ability to know what is going on. Public scrutiny of all processes (check and balances) is just as important to prevent abuses.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Well, ask yourselves why the "stunt" seems to work. It must have hit a nerve somehow.
Now if only the local watering hole would take a hint.
Help fight continental drift.
Dosen't the Bork law says videostores can't give out this kind of info without a warrent? My older customers like being able to ask if they have rented a movie before. I usually delete this info at the end of the year just to save space on the hard drive. The problem with the program I use it's all or nothing.
;-)
We all know that terrorist rent movies to learn how to blow up things.
The very fact that the government, or amazon, or whover, can scan your book purchasing history quickly and easily implies that they will ... it would require heroic restraint on the part of any government not to make use of the (nosy, instrusive) tools that the information age provides in order to "protect" the public.
And there aint no heroes in Washington.
Moral to this story: Expect everything purchase that you make to become part of the public record.
I think the problem is finding decent congressman. Remember, these people come from the population. The politicians don't suck, the population sucks if this is the best we have to offer. An ignorant population is easy to control. I bet the people who ran out and bought duct tape and plastic think the PATRIOT act is a great idea. Considering what it is the name, "PATRIOT act", makes me want to vomit.
I have com to the the conclusion that in general us Americans give up lots of our rights (think freedom) without a fight for the illusion of protection. We are no better protected than we were before this abomination to our freedom, American politics at its finest.
Think about that while you eat your red, white, and blue cake.
aren't they required to keep logs of the books their customers take out? they can't just delete that information, can they??
"The cup... the drop... it's a YES!"
I'm going to have to buy a book from them.
Thank you, Bear Pond Books! I could kiss you... if I didn't live in Florida.
-Derick
That is a very respectable move. In these ages of increased security, there is a trade off - That being, rights for security. With current news of TCPA, etc. it's nice to see someone take a stand.
Actually, as far as I know, you have no right to privacy. It's just something we've come to think we deserve.
Could someone fill me in on the laws that have been passed that give us these rights? I'm not trolling I would really like to know.
-- taking over the world, we are.
Now that's what I call patriotism.
ISPs and search engines are affected by the Patriot Act also. The authorities can claim that search terms are part of the URL, because they get logged with the URL in normal httpd logging. Therefore they fall under the definition of "routing and addressing" information that is subject to "tap and trace device" scrutiny. Judges are required to approve orders for such scrutiny without a showing of probable cause.
Google saves your cookie ID, your IP number, your search terms, the date and time stamp, and your browser configuration with every search request you make to Google, and Google retains all this data indefinitely, and Google will not comment on their dealings with the authorities.
But this is cool because Google has cute colored letters in their logo, right?
Yet another reason to support your local retailer, instead of some monstrous mega-billion dollar international conglomerate that pays people minimum wages and operates nothing more consumer friendly than giant warehouses wherever rent is cheap. There's no "community" when you buy from these giants. Stroll down to your local bookstore (or any small retail establishment). You'll be surprised at pricing, selection, and customer service.
Peggy Bresee was in Bear Pond Books recently to buy "War is a Force That Gives Us Meaning" and "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy" as birthday gifts for a son who lives in Utah. She had
the store purge the purchase records.
Hope they spelled her name correctly!
PS: my first post while running Solaris 9 on a Sparc
How about buying from your local bookseller and paying cash?
Prevent email address forgery. Publish SPF records for y
Wow, someone who actually believes this. You should be tranquilized, tagged, and returned to the wild so scientists can study your habits because you are a rare and fascinating aberration.
Here's a brief summary of what the Church Committee came up with in 1975: link. A few select quotes from the article sited:
Here's a fine page with many links to goverment documents such as the Church Committee's and the Rockefeller reports on CIA abuses within the U.S.: link
Now of course all these things are in the past, and the Church report defanged the CIA right? Right? Surely the CIA would never do that again... But it really doesn't matter, as the USA PATRIOT Act gives the CIA pretty much a free hand at intelligence gathering in the US anyway.
-dameron
your rights.
It was to preserve your way of life. You wouldn't mind giving up your constitutional rights to preserve your freedom, now would you.
Otherwise the terrorists win you see.
SIEG HI.... cough. Er, excuse me. Reflex.
KFG
...someone finally bought your book!" :)
Let me be frank with you people, John Ashcroft could care less what you read. There is no clerk in the government right now fishing book sales records looking for the enemy within. Now, you can bet your ass that when they arrested the buffalo 6 they tried to find out what books they checked out from their local library or bought from a local book store. Why? The answer is of course, DUH. If they bought a bunch of books on chemistry that had information that could be used to make bombs, then they had better start busting their asses to figure ot if any had been made and where they went. Meanwhile, you and I have not had our civil liberties infringed one single bit. This is pure scaremongering on the parts of some groups and ignorant fear on the part of others. Ponder this, you have expose a terror cell and don't capture one of them. You find out at the local book store they were buying books on flying small aircraft. Ah ha! You have a lead! The level of paranoia some people have about patriot really perturbs me. Most of the patriot act was an excuse to update federal surveillance and evidence gathering to account for the computer age and also to close various loopholes that kept them from doing some no-brainer stuff. As a customer though, I feel good that a bookstore will toss my records. That is between them and me. However, I feel government should be able to access the records that are there if there is an imperative national security interest. Most of you would agree with that statement, and lo and behold that is what patriot does.
Never overestimate the end user. -jeramy b. smith
Kind of interesting to here about this when I heard on the Screen Savers that eBay is more than willing to hand over any user's information to the goverment without a supeona or court order. Here is a link to the original artical where the senior council for eBay had a close door meeting with cyber crimes divisions of goverment agencies.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. --Edmund Burke
How do they plan to deal with the IRS and other tax mongers? innocent until proven guilty doesn't necessarily mean ignorance is on your side... hopefully they're just anonymizing the sales, and not purging all records completely...
-Q
When you use cash you don't have to give out your identity, and short of using witnesses or video surveilence tapes you're pretty anonymous and untrackable. Be careful with gift certificates/cards though as they potentially can be tracked.
For the online world you'd pretty much need to develop some sort of zero-knowledge system; one that involves real-world entities, not just zero-knowledge cryptographic techniques. Something like an indentity-free payment system (there have been many of these experiements), combined with a zero-knowledge separation of the inventory system from the shipping system.
Of course that only covers you after the fact. If the government is able to set up things before your purchase (like wiretaps and other spy-stuff), then you will get caught.
I worked at web hosting facility once and it was victimized by several DDOS attacks. I can tell you, the FBI people will work with you if you file a report. However, if you don't give them a big hassle when they want to check something, they are much nicer to work with when you are the one needing the help. So, it doesn't surprise me that Ebay bends over backwards to help these guys since they probably have had major breakin attempts and probably have had some ddos attacks also.
Never overestimate the end user. -jeramy b. smith
Michael Katzenberg has been arrested on suspicions of ties to Al Qaeda and the Islamic Jihad. That and Saddam Hussein's alien abduction and anal probe next.... On FOX news! We speculate... YOU decide!
You can't be tracked if you use Cash to buy a book. Doing it online? Think twice about doint that. Get outdoors, support your mom and pop bookstore and buy from them instead. Besides, it's better for the economy than feeding some megolith corp with multimillion dollar CEO's.
And for goodness sake, don't use those easy debit cards. Don't use those grocery store discount cards either! Cash baby!
Then when you become more literate from readin controversial books, write your congressperson and tell him what you think of his/her voting yes to a law that erodes your freedoms and turns the US into a Cold War Era Soviet Union. I'm still waiting to be stopped by some cop, asked for my papers and basically interogated for why I'm out walking around!
The truth is usually just an excuse for lack of imagination.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Guess it's a good thing I use JunkBuster and wear my tin foil hat while surfing the web...
Have a day..
I am an adminsitrator at a public library and was told to remove all records and log files that contained information about our patrons. The library's board of trustees chose this even though it could cost them government money.
Someone up further on the list spoke eloquently about how John Ashcroft and Gov't clerks don't give a rat's patute (say it phonetically) about what we're reading. Unfortunatly, this isn't true necessarily. I live in Denver, which was mentioned in either the article or the post, and frequent the Tattered Cover. This is the store that had it's rights to preserve records w/o the gov't having a warrant challenged. Fortunatly, they won. However, as with many things, the government found a loophole, the Patriot act. The case here with the Tattered Cover was a person who bought a book that was something to the effect of 'Making Meth in your Basement.' They tried to take records without a warrant once, and it's a slippery slope, in my opinion. Now here's a scary example. Your a highschool or college student, or even a graduated person, who wants to read about chemistry. Either to cram for an exam, or just because. You go down to the bookstore, and buy three textbooks. Suddenly, John Ashcroft is at your door, calling you a terrorist, and taking you to jail. Because you wanted to remember the chemical formula for methane? (CH4) That's a little much to me.
"For I am the Alpha and the Omega, the begining and the end, the first and the last. Wow, this is crazy stuff!"
I'm on the board of a library in the United States. We, in an effort to prevent PATRIOT (which, by the way, stands for "Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism" - how pathetic is that?) demands of record provision, are now destroying all records that a book was checked out after it is returned. In addition, we are only maintaining backups for the past 72 hours. Not a good backup policy, but it's all that's viable in the face of the PATRIOT Act.
Do they plan to torch to their data drive?
The patriot act is really only one step away from "thoughtcrime" with the ability of search and seizure without warrant and the replacement of trials with military tribunals...
I'm glad that bookstore is fighting against it.
Politics as Usual
The above is a collection of various political writings including such works as
Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler
Manifesto of the Communist Party
The Unabomber's Manifesto
If you know of any more political documents that are preferably controversial and are freely available, post their title. I'd like to add them to my site.
I'm also looking for original video/audio clips of Bin Laden without any editing or commentary over laid. If he's written any documents, I'd like to get a hold of those too. Some recent material from Saddam would be nice as well.
Ben
Work Safe Porn
how much of an information about you can be gleaned from Slashdot comments ?
All you goatse terrorists , you better stop.
Siggy Say, Siggy Do
Order a copy of "The Right Man: The Surprise Presidency of George W. Bush" and other pro-Bush books and you'll automatically be put on the True-American-Citizen list. Just one copy of this book should easily outweigh those dozen copies of The Catcher in the Rye you bought.
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
Why not quote the 4th amendment? It's very clear about what circumstances are required for the government to invade your personal life:
Amendment IV The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Indeed, the bookstore records should be considered "papers" and protected, so this whole business of "knocking down stovepipes" between government and private databases is FUCKING UNAMERICAN!
The language of the constitution is so clear and the intentions are so obvious, that it is equally obvious that it has been broken. You have the right to assemble, to say, pray, and publish what you will. You have the right to bear arms. You will not be put upon by the military. The government can't harrass you without real evidence you are a criminal. The court system will not be used to abuse you. You will have a jury if you are sued. Bail will not be used instead of a conviction. You will not be abused in jail. All of these things have been violated recently with perhaps the exception of the 3rd. I'm not aware of any involuntary quartering of troops, unless eminent domain aquisitions for military bases are considered.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Both parties together represent the ideal combination of ideologies needed to create a system ripe for mass-control of the populace. The Democrats don't really represent the better parts of the left, they represent the worst and same for the Republicans on the Right. IMO our system would be a lot more (Classical) Liberal if it were a 3 way control by the Libertarian, Green and Reform parties.
The people have on paper usually two choices. Two choices isn't a choice, it's a coin flip and a mockery of representative republican values. Both parties have tried for years to convince the public that having 10-190 people officially registered on the ballot is irresponsible because it creates chaos somehow. Having two people on the ballot is akin to having only one choice in most races. Hell in my last congressional election, we had literally only one choice for the House.
The average slashdotter is too sheltered or politically and socially immature to see most of those points. Who here thinks a lot of the Right loves the PATRIOT Act? FreeRepublic is a very right wing website and when the PATRIOT part deux was discussed, no less than 85% of the posts were calling for Bush and Ashcroft's heads on pikes out on 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue if they seriously pushed it.
Click here or a puppy gets stomped!
Which politician is man or woman enough to lead the fight to undo these un-American powers? We know that in the Senate only Feingold resisted, although colleagues have become braver since. And yet the nation remains enthralled to right wing fantasies, driven hysterical by an irresponsible administration and its cynical Democratic allies who use fear to control the public as ranchers use cattle prods.
The hour demands a Lincoln; all we have is a Bush! Is there no one in office with love great enough for our freedom to save it?
longer than 3 months. It it's demanded for legal reasons, we don't have it. The deal is that for this to be legally solid, you must maintain the same policy for all users without exception. This means no .pst or .ost (offline outlook folders -oh god now you know I use MS). What's nice is: this forces people to maintain their email, and thus their jobs a little better. Of course, it's not the most popular policy my IT dept offers.
Companies have had this concept for years. Typical document retention policy is "useful life" - for contracts, it'd be life of contract + 6.5 years. For crap records, it's as long is it's relevent, then whack it immediately.
And the reason is simple - all this junk needs to be stored, which costs money, and managed - which costs more money. Then, if someone wants it (and you have it), you have to find it - that's a ton of money... then the lawyers etc. get to review it, and that's a fortune, over a freakin post-it note that would never be used in your favor, meaning at best it won't be used against you in a suit... more often than not, it'll simply provide the cause needed for them to request more documents.
Yick.
help me i've cloned myself and can't remember which one I am
the fact is that everyone good enough for the job either is smart enough to know that they don't want the job, or while more qualified, could easily be smeared to death by the Democrats, Republicans, or anyone else really. People think that US leaders should be exemplary, but get angry if you tell them that Jefferson had slaves and that Washington had a 'hemp garden'. Perhaps if they weren't elected by hypocrites it would be easier to get quality candidates rather than a lesser of two evils.
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
why not buy your terrorist guidebooks from up north in Canada where patriot act is not in effect?
If the government is watching us, who is watching the governement? Not the people as most are brainwashed with fear.
We should hope that other organizations besides booksellers consider this example. Libraries and ISP's suffer the same intrusive privacy invasions established by the Busybody act. Wouldn't it be nice for Verizon, for example, if they could tell the RIAA to f*** off 'cuz there just ain't no damn records to give them? Finger that, Hilary. Libarians have been compelled to submit to our newly established right-wing autocracy as well. They've got to give up the goods and shut up about it, or they can be branded criminals. Pretty sorry state of affairs if you ask me.
Server logs in the bit bucket!
Yippidy dippidy dee!
I have prurient interests!
But you won't catch me!
--Lawrence Lessig for Congress!
these kinds of records is 'Illegal' under the Patriot Act or some other facisct BS act ?
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
People whom we help get arrested also bought...
I would think they can not purge all of the records, they have to show what the sold for tax reasons, and what was returned (both by the consumer & to the warehouses) They have to keep some recordes.
Just wait until Patriot Act THE SEQUEL
Do you really believe the depth and breadth of political thought can be reduced to a one-dimensional scale? How did such a ridiculous notion become widespread?
Is politics a solved game, like tic-tac-toe?
Is our present government REALLY the center of an imaginary line, bordered on each side by fanatical killers?
IMHO, that belief is a cancer on our democracy. It prompts intelligent people to abandon political discourse for team-loyalty.
That is certainly a matter of opinion don't you think?
To know is to have knowledge....to understand is to be enlightened.
I bet my local bookstore, the Tattered Cover in Denver, wished they had done this. They had to fight such a case in court. Thankfully they won.
a d. html
http://w3.trib.com/FACT/1st.lev.TatteredCoverRe
I thought it was their neighbor, New Hampshire, that had "Live Free or Die" on their license plates (which I guess is kind of ironic in a way).
But, good for them. It's nice to see individuals making an intelligent stand for individual freedom.
Every order is organized by year newest to oldest. Every order is clickable to bring up the exact specifics of what was ordered: the number of shipments, the tracking numbers, what was order, it's price, and totals (shipping, tax, subtotal, grand total).
Attack the source problem *cough* Patriot Act *cough* not Amazon.com, BarnesandNoble.com, or whoever you want to smear because of some hivemind mentality.
If you don't want even record of the sale you need not shop at all, online or offline.
There is always going to be some paper trail; no matter if its a reciept, a CC statment, or the cashier remembering you.
A business in this era of consolidation purging it's records, thus disabling itself from selling you more crap in the future via Spam or (at a minimum) junk mail? The only way that would work is if they were only in the business of selling books. That isn't going to happen as long as they can afford a consultant who can whisper fairy tales about that mythic beast "synergy" in the CEO's ear.
Face it. Most businesses these days are not what they claim to be on their signs - booksellers, grocers, bakers. They're many businesses lumped together under one roof that are just as comfortable selling you your morning coffe or a cemetary plot. Thanks to consolidation, only multiheaded hydras survive. And sometimes, the customers suffer instead of benefiting.
"Prepare for the worst - hope for the best."
Fark's message boards are about as interesting as a busload of retarded kids. Sure, it's funny to watch for a little while, but eventually you just start feeling sorry for them.
Agreed, and the poor quality of the messages is magnified by the lack of moderation. There's really little incentive to make a quality post (non-Photoshop thread, at least) on Fark as it receives the same billing as everything else. Thus posting something logical, coherent and informative on Fark is just about as satisfying as burying a delicious home-baked calzone in a pile of cow dung.
no. no flamebait. no, really, no.
please correct this.
the computer is online
i am not at it
what a waste of ressources
All this logging of useless data, we are going to need some bigger hard drives on the market.
Don't vote.
http://www.fuckthevote.org/
Peace and love, y'all
Is this going to cause Radio Shack to start asking our name, address & phone number again when we purchase a few led lights.
"It comes from a very ancient democracy, you see..."
"You mean, it comes from a world of lizards?"
"No", said Ford, who by this time was a little more rational and coherent than he had been, having finally had the coffee forced down him, "nothing so simple. Nothing anything like so straightforward. On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people."
"Odd", said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy."
"I did", said Ford. "It is."
"So", said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't the people get rid of the lizards?"
"It honestly doesn't occur to them", said Ford. "They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates to the government they want."
"You mean they actually vote for the lizards?"
"Oh yes", said Ford with a shrug, "of course".
"But", said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"
"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in. Got any gin?"
"What?"
"I said", said Ford, with an increasing air of urgency creeping into his voice, "have you got any gin?"
"I'll look. Tell me about the lizards."
Ford shrugged again.
"Some people say that the lizards are the best thing that ever happened to them." he said. "They're completely wrong of course, completely and utterly wrong, but someone's got to say it." - Douglas Adams, So long, and thanks for all the fish, chapter 36.
"It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it." - Eugene V. Debs
People marched to implore for innocent lives in Iraq.
Your Bush and Mr Hussein will play games with the lives of uncontable number of people like you or me, the most tragic if you think that Mr Hussein has been fully contained and could have been continued to be so for the forseable future.
Any bad thoughts of Mr Hussein about sharing any expertise he may have or any arms he may still posses could have been contrarested with proper intelligence work and a few dollars to bribe the rigt people, but of course we know how competent US agencies are when it comes to detecting possible threats.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
...that you're always going on about.
/., but a fellow scientist friend of Einstein, wanted to get American citizenship, like his friend.
:o/
I've mentioned this before on
He asked Einstein what preparation he should make, and Einstein said that he should probably read the constitution.
He did this for days on end, apparently, papers scattered across his floor, as he looked at and studied the document.
When Einstein came to pick him up and make the journey with him to (wherever it is you go to swear the oath etc.) this scientist said to Einstein, did you know that there's nothing in the constitution to stop America becoming a dictatorship?
Einstein said that, no, he didn't know that.
His friend asked Einstein, do you think I should mention this to the fellow who'll be swearing me in as a US citizen? To which Einstein replied, that no, he should probably not say anything.
So, I haven't read your prized constitution, but, before you go and rely upon it for your well-being, you might all want to have another wee glance at it again.
Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - Ambrose Bierce
Good for Bear Pond. It has always been one of my favorite reasons to take a drive to Montpelier. I'll be sure to visit them more often when I up there from now on.
... it is OK to be speide in every single one of our habits.
Wait that once all the information is gathered it is used for the wrong purposes, by the wrong people or both.
So many of you in the US have an innability to be skeptical that is frankly scary.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I've got an idea. The public is generally considered very bad at governing itself right? (In terms of making logical descions) Masses of people tend to act on whims, emotions, and whatever the "group" feels at the moment. Mob mentality on a grand scale if you will. I suppose that this is because people don't tend to think logically in these kinds of situation, whether because they don't want to think for themselves out of laziness, lack of time, or lack of resources to educate themselves. I don't know. What if a public service was started that during elections, say maybe.. the whole week before the election, every TV station has a voter education segment that reviews each canditate and issue in a non-partisian fashion. And I don't mean just a half hour election primer sitcom deal. I'm talking every channel, several hours worth of information. Does anyone think this might help?
"I murder kittens, robot. Whats it to 'ya?" - Badguy
Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither. -Thomas Jefferson
You don't think anyone with a disability should be aloud to be president?
I have never wanted to be in the military, but even if I did, I can't.
My arches are low, so I require special running shoes, I can still do a marathon, but the military will not take me because I require special equipment.
I also have psoriasis (a genetic skin condition that causes dry, flaking, cracking sores), all but the most mild of cases will keep you from being eligible (I am not sure if mine is bad enough for them to not want me)
So in your book I should never be aloud to run for president, that is fubar.
I would have no problem with a requirement for all people running of elected office (or even all voters for that mater, thanks Heinlein...) having worked in some kind of civil service job, this would include military, but also firefighters, police, forestry workers, and many others...
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
Anyone see anything on bear pond's site that confirms the sfgate article's claims? Their security/privacy policy does talk about keeping your info private & opt-in etc, but i was unable to find anything explicitly mentioning the option to have them destroy all records of your transaction, or any discussion of document retention policy.
(I wonder if they have a video camera in their store, and if so would they edit it to remove your image too?)
This comes from a Vermont store, the only state to successful secede from the union. Granted we weren't a state at the time and Massachusetts and New York were fighting over us, but we did declare ourselves independent.
In general if more states had the tradition of selfgovernment that vermont schools teach we would be in a better situation in general. I'm amazed at how many people in New York and New Jersey aren't taught the basic principles of government and I can understand why they are so jaded because of that.
State and Local History is just as important as World and National History.
' Now if only certain other booksellers would show that same conscience, we might have something here."
dude, you forgot to put slashdot's affiliate ID in the BN link.
Last time I checked the terrorist were from Afganistan?
... BLACK MARKET! Or they flat out steal them! No murderer is going to Wal-mart to buy his weapon.
This is just like the gun rights battle that is going on. They make the laws so the honest people can't get guns. But the criminals can get them anytime from the same place they have always got them
With all the recently released bills, laws and statutes. The USA citizen is quite possible more watched and restricted, especially in the area of free speech, than th Russians were during the Cold War. Hell, even China isn't as bad as the USA.
Conor "You're not married,you haven't got a girlfriend and you've never seen Star Trek? Good Lord!" - Patrick Stewart
...Just great, I bought 2600 with my check card a few times. Guess that will come back to haunt me.
Works nicely for now. But what about in ten years, when the very act of paying cash is grounds for suspicion. Sound far-fetched? Try paying for a new car with a briefcase full of $100s. That wasn't always a "reportable" transaction.
The government now knows through amazon.com that I am a big fan and user of linux and unix and that I have sinus problems and lean slightly to the right. I hope they don't find out that I like music too! Don't buy your guns from a gun shop and don't buy communist books from a book store.
Telecommuting! What about socialization?
Since its intent is to avoid the act, would this be considered a crime as well?
I agree with them 100%, i just think they may open themselves up for potential legal trouble.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
How could they have left out RAW!
Whenever something like this starts happening, I consider rereading Illuminatus!, or possibly Everything is Under Control.
Not that that helps in any practical way...
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
OSTFUWY?
Edith Keeler Must Die
And all the others. You half-wit.
Blar.
It has been "treason" to attempt to remove the government from power through any means other than voting, since before 1800. When George Washington put down a particular rebellion with military force, I think it was the Whiskey rebellion, though I am probably wrong, which tried to resist an "unjust law." It has been interpreted as implying that the only valid way to change a law was through voting. More recently nonviolent protest has become relatively effective at convincing politicians to change the laws. But the way it worked, was that it caused the politician's constituents to threaten not to vote for him/her if the politician did not make a sufficient effort to resolve the cause of the protest. So even now the only valid way to change government is voting or threatening to vote against the incumbents.
Well, they carry L. Neil Smith's books (or at least have a listing for him), so looks like I might be switching booksellers.
I had a look around their site - anyone know what their out-of-state shipping policy is?
Chip H.
Perhaps then we wouldn't continuously get ourselves into cycles of Constitution shredding/rebuilding.
You may recall that the US constitution actually includes a mechanism for its own revision... It's called an "amendment," if you remember civics class.
The people who wrote this thing knew it was a balancing act, and expected the thing to be revised and changed over time. Most of them would probably be shocked by how their "original intent" has become so pivotal for judicial "conservatives" like Bork; the one intent they all agreed on was that the document should change for the better.
The "consequences" you're talking about would be the first thing any abusive government would take advantage of. That's exactly the sort of thing that'd let Ashcroft shout "treason!" and send tanks against college campuses.
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
I spent the last few years working in a bookstore, and I would argue that your purchase is never really "anonymous" unless you pay with cash and avoid using any kind of "frequent reader" card.
At my store, we had to retain all receipts for some set period (I can't remember exactly -- at least 12 months) for accounting reasons. Now, we did not have an integrated credit card system on our Point of Sale system, so the itemized sales receipt and the credit card slip were separate pieces of paper, but there were identifying marks written on the credit card receipts that allowed them to be tracked back to the itemized register receipt (which listed the titles purchased).
So, no matter what was going on in the computer, as long as the paper copies of both receipts were still extant, you could track the purchases of specific books back to a credit card number. If a store has an integrated Credit Card/POS, then the credit card number and the book titles are on the same piece of paper, so it's even easier.
As others have said here, pay cash and you've got no problems (short of surveillance cameras that show you purchasing the books ;-) ).
My wife and I pay for almost everything we buy at retail or in restaurants with a credit card to rack up frequent flyer miles, and I ocassionally get paranoid about this (my paranoia seems to vary in direct proportion to the amount of time spent reading slashdot). But at least I'm aware of the fact that I am trading the privacy of my purchases for something else of value to me (airline miles), the convenience of not having to carry much cash or make change, and the float that I get from not paying for my purchases until the next month.
What I would really like is something like the "Visa Cash" card. I get the impression that there is nothing like this available in the U.S. yet?
The IPCC has purposely engineered a massive scientific fraud.
The problem with the 17th is that it radically altered the balance of power in government.
Remember that we have a federal government, formed by joint action of individual states. They set up, in the Constitution, systems of "checks and balances" to keep government from encroaching on the rights of its citizens. You were likely taught as a child about the division of power between the Leg/Exec/Jud branches.
But this is not the only power triangle. The Founders were not wary only of a part of government with too much power (king), but that the power of government as a whole was too far removed from the people. Reading the DoI and Constitution, it is clear the idea was that "we, the people" were sovereign, and the plan was that government should only be as big as necessary to perform it's necessary and proper functions. These functions are clearly delineated, mostly in Art 1 Sec 8. Government's natural tendency is to accumulate power to itself. What better check on the power of one government than to balance it against another government? Hence the idea of a federal system. The other power triangle is that of the People, States, and Federal.
We mostly see this in the design of Congress, divided as it is into two houses. The HoR represents the people, the popular will of the nation. Spending bills must originate in the HoR because ultimately it is the people that pay the taxes. The Senate represents the states in their capacity as sovereign political bodies. The president ratifies treaties with consent of 2/3 of the Senate because it is political bodies that are bound by treaties.
Representatives were to be selected by the popular vote of the district they represented. Senators were to be selected by the legislatures of their respective states, typically from among their own members. Today we are so ingrained with the idea of direct democracy that this seems foreign. "What do you mean I don't choose my senator?" But think about it a moment longer:
Your state deals with local matters that affect you day to day, but at the US Congress' level you have to be concerned with the nation as a whole and world affairs. Does the average individual have enough time to become educated on all the issues around the country and the world in order to make a good selection for senator? No! The indirect democratic process lets you send wise people from your own community (that you probably know well) to your state capitol, and let them, hopefully the "best and brightest" of your state, the people you've delegated the responsibility of pondering political matters "full-time" on your behalf, select who represents the state in DC.
(To a lesser extent, you also see this balance in the Electoral College. The number of electors isn't random, it's the sum of Senators and Representatives for a reason - it's an attempt at unifying the popular will and the states' will into choosing someone for a singular office (president). The president is not only the leader of people, he's the leader of the united states - plural - too.)
The 17th Amendment threw this all out the window. To "fix" a few procedural problems (Senate vacancies going unfilled because of partisan squabbling in the states) it was changed to allow direct election of senators. This effectively stripped the states (as political entities) from having any voice in DC. No longer are senators obligated to look at "the big picture" and do what is best for the state (which is why senators were given 6-year terms), they become more concerned with getting re-elected and pleasing advocacy groups to win votes. Senators used to be the "cool heads" because of this, not easily heated up by the passions of the people. Senators took the long-term view. Representatives were only given 2-year terms so that they could not do too much damage following the whims of the people. The Founders knew the dangers of democracy ("mob rule") and that's why we have a republic. But after the 17th, Senators because Representatives with a term long enough to push through popular, but dangerous, agendas. No longer was power kept close to the people in their respective states, but it began to accumulate in Washington. The safeguard of one government against another is gone. Now you routinely see state governors whining to "big brother" for federal aid for this or that, and more local issues being controlled by far-away bureaucrats - the very thing the Founders loathed.
Another side effect of this amendment is the detachment of senators even from the people who put them in office! Each Represenative has about, what, half a million constituents? Do you really think that he is able to meet with all of them, know all of them, to represent their interests well? How much worse for Senators who may represent up to 50 times that many, or more! Your senator doesn't know you, or care about you. Your ignorance (of national matters, of world matters, of him personally) puts him in office - that's what he likes. Senators today are not truly accountable, as they were when they only had to answer to a small group (the state legislature) that could chastise them. Six years from now we'll have forgotten any offenses, and re-elect the guy. Add the fact that senate campaigns are some of the most expensive in the country, because you have to cover the whole state, rather a smaller group. If you want "campaign finance reform", repeal the 17th amendment! Overnight you'll see far less political money thrown around.
An aside: read the Federalist Papers. (You can get Mary Webster's translation into "modern" English. Also handy because it indexes which letters discuss which topics.) Nothing in the Constitution was done on a whim or by chance. Everything was carefully reasoned out. Proposals for amendments should always be meticulously scrutinized. The 17th was not, unfortunately. William Jennings Bryan (IIRC) helped make it happen, but he spent the rest of his life trying to get it repealed. It also helps if you think of "The United States" as not one entity, but many, as the Founders did.
Constitutionally Correct
To put it another way, the individuals most likely to strive for political power are those with a desire to control others and reduce personal liberty. Those who just want to live their lives in peace, according to their own will, are those least likely to strive for political power. And there we have the reason why, as time progresses, the US government becomes more expensive, more corrupt, and more oppressive.
Liberty is being secure in our effects. There's no "liberty violation" in locking our doors to keep out thieves. This is different than gov't locking us in our homes "for our own good".
Liberty is being secure in our persons. You can't kill someone else because they have the right to live! Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins.
Not violating others' rights, and others' not violating your rights - that's what liberty is. Don't equate liberty with license.
Don't knock "dead white men" simply because you don't understand what they said. Even if misattributed (it was Franklin, not Jefferson) the original saying is true, when understood in its intended sense.
Constitutionally Correct
By passing an election law that provides a "none of the above" box. If the "None of the above" wins, the current holder of that office steps down and the current staff holds the fort down (so to speak) until a suitable candidate can be found. No laws can be passed, presented or pushed because there's no one to push it on. We stagnate until someone is found. It'd be rough the first couple of times it happened, sure, but you can bet we'd have some pretty good people in no time.
:)
Anyone know how the populace can pass a law without the concessions of the houses? (I know it can be done, I just don't know how... isn't that always the case.)
If not, hey, I'll be dictator for a few years.
My cube. My friend. My solace. My prison.
Russ Feingold! Feingold for President!
Of course you didn't. You haven't done anything. Your just an Anonymous Coward in more ways than one.