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When Should a Consultant Question Decisions?

bay43270 asks: "Presumably, companies hire consultants because they need technical expertise. At some point (if not on a daily basis) a consultant is asked to do something that isn't in the best interest of the company (and therefore may not be in the best interest of the consultant in the long run). The consultant must ask 'do I just say "yes sir" and go to work, or do I try to explain things? If so, how hard do I push?' When should a good consultant question a decision, and how does the situation differ with contract programmers?"

436 comments

  1. Im in this situation now.. by reptilian+biotech · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The money is good..thats a plus. The company in question has zero clue on anything computer related, IE why im hired... however, the programmer... wants citrix for remote administration to a domain controller.. citrix, for remote admin...cause he does not like terminal services.. How do you fight this?

    1. Re:Im in this situation now.. by TinyManCan · · Score: 2, Informative
      Ask them why they want it? I am not 100% opposed to citrix, only because over a 56k dialup line it works well. Terminal services will bog down in situations where citrix works. Of course if you are remote admining servers in the datacenter any you have a 100mbit connection to the box, there is no reason to pay the extra licensing fees.

      I use citrix to admin remote boxes all the time. But only when I am subjected to very low abndwidth connections.

    2. Re:Im in this situation now.. by Evil+Adrian · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "It's ridiculously expensive, terminal services are free."

      --
      evil adrian
    3. Re:Im in this situation now.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Windows shatter attacks defeat windows terminal services.

      Citrix with the SSL gateway is more secure, but not perfectly secure. There would be a lot of risk even exposing Citrix's SSL gateway to the Internet.

      Exposing WTS to the Internet is ** insane **

    4. Re:Im in this situation now.. by tzanger · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What's wrong with TightVNC? It isn't exactly as fast as Cirtix over dialup, but it comes damned close and the price is right.

    5. Re:Im in this situation now.. by div_2n · · Score: 3, Informative

      Two scenarios:

      1) Over the internet

      -Have the programmer sign a contract saying you are not liable for subsequent hack attacks
      -Tell them that TS is cheaper and more reliable for admin purposes
      -Have the programmer sign a contract saying he understands Citrix is more expensive

      2) Over a WAN/VPN

      -Tell them that TS is cheaper and more reliable for admin purposes
      -Have the programmer sign a contract saying he understands Citrix is more expensive

      Having it in writing that you advised AGAINST it covers yours while exposing his/hers.

    6. Re:Im in this situation now.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hehheh insanne. windowes it is teh insecure os!!!! hehh heh yuo are so funney!!!

    7. Re:Im in this situation now.. by maxII · · Score: 5, Informative

      Working as a government consultant for the past 3 years has shown me the importance of having all decisions in writing. No matter how small it seems, e-mailing parties responsible for a confirmation to go ahead with objections noted is a must for consultants, then you can't be blamed for other incompetent peoples faults.

      So yeah as div_2n says, get everything in writing, even if it's just an e-mail, it will be documentary evidence down the track if you find yourself as the scapegoat for bad decisions.

    8. Re:Im in this situation now.. by reptilian+biotech · · Score: 1

      Some excellent advise, especially about having the programmer sign a contract based on security vulnerabilities. My task is to setup the LAN, there is a full T1 on the customer side, as well as the programmer's side (nice (TBD) proprietary software mind you) The programmer ( I believe ) also wants the mssql server exposed to the net, as well as IIS. Im sure this will be a blast.

      personally, as useful as remote access is, remote access = remote access

      Liability waivers here I come!

      thanks all

    9. Re:Im in this situation now.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
      Having it in writing that you advised AGAINST it covers yours while exposing his/hers.

      But in many cases, you ask to have it signed and you're immediately branded an SD and "not a team player". Basically they want someone to hang for their stupidity and arrogance. It's great if you're prepared to walk for your principles, but do it in the wrong place and word will get around

      I know a woman who had very high standards of work. She was fired after we were outsourced to a latge TLA, on the basis that "nobody wants to work with you." Frankly, those who didn't were major slackers, but had the right connections.

      Subsequently, she got to the third level of increasingly warm interviews with a number of companies. Then she'd be dropped as if she hadn't even walked in the door. In all cases, she was able to establish that the large TLA had a presence in each of the companies which lost interest. Draw your own conclusions.

      She eventually got some rich contracts in companies without such presence. And yes, she really was that good. Far more ability than most of the men and women I've worked with over 35 years.

    10. Re:Im in this situation now.. by ebbomega · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Personally, I think that's doing your job. You say "It's a bad idea. I won't do it unless I have it in writing that I was opposed so I don't get blamed for doing what I think it is going to do"

      If anything, it might convince the higher-ups that maybe it's not such a smart idea if the expert is so adamant about assuming responsibility for what he expects to happen.

      If you show that you're happy to do something you disagree with (albeit not without avoiding misrepresentation of your actions) then you'd look a lot better in management's eyes.

      --
      Karma: Non-Heinous
    11. Re:Im in this situation now.. by sbszine · · Score: 1

      I've just spent three days trying to resolve problems with the Citrix client corrupting Win2k user profiles.

      If you can keep Citrix off even one innocent box, it's worth losing your cushy contract over.

      --

      Vino, gyno, and techno -Bruce Sterling

    12. Re:Im in this situation now.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Advise against installing unnecessary software on critical infrastructure server (Domain controllers, Exchange, etc)

      Not all server application have been tested and compatible issues can arrise, causing intermittment server BSoD, performance issues, etc).

      If this Admin is looking to access these servers from home, recommend setting up one Citrix server for admin (preferrable a separate server). The Admin can then launch term server session from within his citrix session. This will enable him the additional security & compression functions of ICA, without the need to install citrix on all servers.

      If the Admin isn't going to be happy with this solution, then reccomend using PC anywhere, which is still signficantly cheaper. You can also right up the cost for Citrix licenses and maintance charges. That should stop this non-sense cold.

    13. Re:Im in this situation now.. by mabinogi · · Score: 2, Informative

      VNC absolutely sucks when compared to terminal services (I don't know about Citrix) for doing any real work on a machine...

      I don't know how the two compare over 56k, but over 128 - 512kb WAN and VPN connections Terminal services wins every time, it's like you're sitting at the machine, and you never have to refresh the screen to see things that VNC didn't notice happen (Like java apps...ugh)

      Of couse ssh wins over all of them, but theres limits to how much administration you can do with ssh on windows

      --
      Advanced users are users too!
    14. Re:Im in this situation now.. by DuctTape · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well, gee, d00d, as a consultant/contractor/outsider you're going to be the scapegoat anyway regardless of paperwork. Duh.

      --
      Is this thing on? Hello?
    15. Re:Im in this situation now.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Programmer??
      Remote access???
      Domain controller???
      Are you mad??
      WTF are you thinking?
      trust me I am not trolling.

    16. Re:Im in this situation now.. by sirsnork · · Score: 2, Informative

      He said TightVNC.. It has compression built in and works quite well over 56k

      --

      Normal people worry me!
    17. Re:Im in this situation now.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      VNC or Linux.
      There's other "products" that they may already own, but just haven't deployed like SMS-RC or Remote Administrator (VNC-based).

      There are too many options, but the best is to work a business case for centrally maintained unix-based systems for almost all servers. Only those applications that cannot be ported to a unix solution should be allowed to run on Win32 servers. It is called architecture standards and governance. Get the CIO and CEO on-board with you and the win-weenies will shut up.

    18. Re:Im in this situation now.. by fubar1971 · · Score: 1

      The way I would handle this, is to do a little bit of research to make valid arguments why it is not a good reason. Make sure you make your arguments so as to reflect all of your technical concerns, but the big argument to make will be financial. If you start spewing forth too much technical jargon, you will lose the intrest of your customer and then lose the argument. People understand money. If you make it a financial argument, people will listen. Trying to justify the cost of Citrix for remote admin should be an easy argument to defeat. How long would it take to recoup the expense of purchasing and installing Citrix for the use of remote administration, especially if it is for one programmer. Just make sure that when you argue your points, everyone is aware that you are using your best professional judgement to assist the company technically and finacially.

    19. Re:Im in this situation now.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also Citrix allows you to stream VIDEO :-)

      Maybe by domain controller he means 'company pr0n server'

    20. Re:Im in this situation now.. by RyuMaou · · Score: 1

      Um, the last time I installed Citrix, it *required* Terminal Services. Of course, that has been a couple of years, so I may be remembering it wrong, but...
      In any case, Citrix really isn't that bad, if you have the rest of your network security configured right. Just make sure to set up dynamic account creation and deletion on the Citrix machine. (Oh, I was using NDS for my security, too, BTW. I've really only used Citrix in Novell shops. And, we *did* consider the Citrix servers the weak point in our security, but that was because it ran on WindowsNT/2K.)

      --
      Oh, the trials and tribulations of a network geek! Read about them at: http://www.ryumaou.com/hoffman/netgeek/
    21. Re:Im in this situation now.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless they are asking you to do something really stupid, which happens, or asking you to break the law, which also happens, you shouldn't really question it. Just do it and stop whining.

    22. Re:Im in this situation now.. by buffer-overflowed · · Score: 1

      He was right, you can remote shatter Windows Terminal Services.

      --
      The key to the enjoyment of pop music is to replace any instance of "love" with "C.H.U.D."
    23. Re:Im in this situation now.. by fubar1971 · · Score: 1

      I like your sig.... nipple pink is a really color too :P

    24. Re:Im in this situation now.. by buffer-overflowed · · Score: 1

      Explain in no uncertain terms that if you run Windows and expose those services to the web, the computer will be hacked with days, maybe hours, maybe years, but it will be hacked, guaranteed.

      Stuff like this is just one more reason to avoid MS except when you need it. You should be able to expose an IIS/sql server to the web w/o having to bang on it for days.

      --
      The key to the enjoyment of pop music is to replace any instance of "love" with "C.H.U.D."
    25. Re:Im in this situation now.. by hesperant · · Score: 0

      Of all the responses this one is the best, I've seen. It addresses all the relevant points.

      I to have been in such a connundrum. Flatly denieing the request was enough to almost find me looking for another project. Even though protecting the client from their own idiocy was paramount IMHO, I must agree that if they want it, beyond education, protection is the best method.

      Hesp

    26. Re:Im in this situation now.. by GNUman · · Score: 2, Funny

      This just made me recall a quote from a book I read a while ago:

      "What is the most effective Windows NT remote management tool?
      A car."
      - Network Intrusion Detection, An Analyst's Handbook
      2nd Edition, 2000
      Stephen Northcutt et al, page 147

      Don't mean to do some Windows-bashing, but I remember I was laughing out loud when I read that.

    27. Re:Im in this situation now.. by meme_police · · Score: 1
      "The programmer ( I believe ) also wants the mssql server exposed to the net".

      That's just insane.

      --

      The meme police, They live inside of my head

    28. Re:Im in this situation now.. by JamieF · · Score: 1

      (TightVNC and VNC are interchangeable for the purpose of this post...)
      VNC is less secure and VNC Server doesn't allow multiple users to run different sessions at the same time.

      From http://www.uk.research.att.com/vnc/winvnc.html:

      "Because Windows in its present, standard incarnation, only supports a single graphical user being logged in at any one time, WinVNC makes the existing desktop of the PC available remotely, rather than creating a separate desktop as happens with the Unix server. It is only fair to emphasise this: VNC does not make an NT machine into a multi-user server in the same way that Citrix-based software, for example, does. A single NT machine can therefore be accessed by multiple users, but if they all connect at the same time they will all see the same desktop!"

      Likewise, if there is someone looking at the monitor hooked up to the Windows server you're connected to with VNC, they'll see everything you're doing. It's possible to disable the local keyboard & mouse (via a VNC server config option) but you can't turn off the display. This could be a security issue.

      Also, Terminal Server connections are encrypted, while VNC's are not. Yes, I know you can fix that with ssh; yes, I know Terminal Server uses Microsoft crypto... maybe it should be run over ssh also :)

  2. You're missing the point by drob · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Your job is to look pretty and keep you mouth shut. Don't start thinking about "what is good for the client", they don't think about it why should you? Stepping on anybody's toes is going to get your butt kicked out of there sooner so start thinking about what is good for you.

    (did I get the first post??)

    1. Re:You're missing the point by wo1verin3 · · Score: 1

      Depends on the situation, sometimes if you kick the right person in the toes someone else will notice. I think this is an odd question because this will always depend on the situation.

    2. Re:You're missing the point by drob · · Score: 1

      yeah. If you've been paid to off someone then it is the right thing. The hardest part is that you often are the last to know why you've really been hired.

    3. Re:You're missing the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, so when it all goes to hell you get the blame. You should always point out the best course of action, if for no other reason than to cover your own ass.

    4. Re:You're missing the point by drob · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Pointing out the "best" course of action can be worse than neutral. Your job is to point out the "winning" course of action. If it is a MS shop, then .NET is the answer. If it is a Java shop then J2EE is the answer. If it is a PHP shop then PHP is the answer. You can figure out the rest.

    5. Re:You're missing the point by applef00 · · Score: 2, Funny

      I disagree. You owe it to your reputation to see that the company employing your services is doing as well as it can. I realize that this may be a "goody-goody" type of attitude, but I believe in it. If they're paying for your advice, then it's your job to advise, despite any discomfort it may cause. There are, of course, good ways and bad ways to tell someone that the way they're doing something sucks. For example, "nice idea, retard" would be a bad way.

    6. Re:You're missing the point by DutchSter · · Score: 5, Interesting

      If you are truly a consultant, then you are paid your fee for doing what your contract stipulates. One of the critical legal distinctions between being an employee and being a consultant is that an employee has a stake in the company's future, whereas a contractor is strictly a temporary resource being used to fit the particular needs of the company at that time.

      I've always been very careful to stay out of such things unless they are directly covered under what I am supposed to be doing. For example, back when I did SAP consulting, my job was to devise the role assignments so as to avoid collusion between employees. When some group (I believe it was Finance), wanted to create combined roles just to 'make it easier', I stepped up. My job was to ensure that the new roles had a minimal risk of collusion and Finance wanted to do something directly contrary to that. In that case, I took it to my contact person (note, NOT my boss) and explained. He then had the Finance group meet with the consultants to justify their need (they were shot down).

      However, if it's a question of implementation or something, like where the client is bringing you on to do 10 tasks, if those tasks are the wrong tasks to be doing or incorrect - too bad. You get paid to do your contractual assignment.

      Look at it this way - the company went out of their way to bring you on as a consultant rather than a regular employee. (Note I did not say 'hire you') There's a reason for that - they believe that you have certain talents and skills that can directly impact one of their objectives. You weren't brought on to create the objectives.

      Things can get very ugly, legally, if you and your client begin to act as if an employer-employee relationship exists.

      Microsoft had this sort of problem a few years ago where they had all these permatemp contractors. Basically people they didn't want to hire full-time so they just called them consultants, but continued to use them over and over on different assignments. The permatemps argued that they were really full-time employees and sued for a fair chunk of change, and won. Consequently, if a company brings you on as a contractor, they want to do everything possible to make sure that the distinction exists, lest you sue them for backpay, overtime and benefits. For that reason I think you'd be totally out of line speaking up.

      You're a consultant, finish your job there and move on to the next client.

    7. Re:You're missing the point by Mostly+a+lurker · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I pretty much agree with everything that you wrote. This does assume, however, that you are looking to make a buck and quit. In my experience, consultants rely on repeat business. It behoves them to give the impression of going the extra mile to satisfy clients. If convinced that the client is doing something seriously against their own interests, I believe you should briefly state this in writing at an appropriate level and then drop it. This should never be done verbally and should never be pressed as that will usually just raise antagonism without any positive result.

      There is a form of consulting that is distinct from the kind you are discussing. Often a consultant is working with a consultancy company. In that case, the consultant must consider the relationship between the company and the client. It is always correct to discuss any such major issues with your company in this case -- and be guided by how they want to deal with it.

    8. Re:You're missing the point by DutchSter · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There is a form of consulting that is distinct from the kind you are discussing. Often a consultant is working with a consultancy company. In that case, the consultant must consider the relationship between the company and the client. It is always correct to discuss any such major issues with your company in this case -- and be guided by how they want to deal with it.

      Yeah I did this kind of stuff for about a year or so before I went off on my own (and began that SAP stint)... My company which contracted me out had pretty strict rules. If we had concerns with how or what we were supposed to be doing things, they were to be done through them. That is, my boss back at the consulting company would be the one to make the call to the client, not me. The reason for that was because I was officially acting on their behalf, so they wanted to CYA as well.

      Man I wish I still had my handbook, but it said something along the lines of "unless instructed by your boss otherwise..." basically that unless I was contracted to set objectives, make decisions and whatnot, any concerns had to go through my employer, not the client.

      It's sad really, but it's all in an effort to prevent being sued. So many times I wanted to be able to just say "oh yeah, here's how you do that", but that was outside the scope of my employment, and my employers contract with the client, so I couldn't.

      I quit there after a year :)

      And yes - anything and everything MUST be writing. Conversations are easily denied or twisted, then it's you, the contractor versus the people suing you.

    9. Re:You're missing the point by Chexsum · · Score: 0

      From WordNet (r) 1.7 [wn]:

      consultant
      n : an expert who gives advice [syn: {adviser}, {advisor}]

      Consultants are supposed to be professionals and reliable *never give bad advice or retain good advice*! =)

      Smack some sense into someone who believes something thats absurd or youre not taking your job seriously *actually just get their BS in writing and demand compensation for the stress it will give you*. ;)

      --
      Pixels keep you awake!
    10. Re:You're missing the point by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

      Contractors finish the job and move on they are by difinition temps. Just another people doing there assigned tasked. Now if they are a Consultant then they need to speek up. I only do Consulting work because of this distinction (that and the pay rate :) If your imput is not desired then you just playing code monkey because one of the resident ones was to bussy or dosent have the optional tail like you :P Consultants come in to lend there experience and expertise one of the reasons I find 20 year olds and fresh colledge grads looking for consulting work so funny they have no expereince to lend to a project.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    11. Re:You're missing the point by Pii · · Score: 4, Insightful
      You have defined, in your first sentence, the role of a "contractor," which may or may not be the same as that of a "consultant."

      That is to say, if you've signed a contract stating that you'll implement X, Y, and Z, then sure, you implement X, Y, and Z, and walk away.

      If your role is truly that of a consultant, then you have a responsibility to speak up. If your client is looking to satisfy a requirement, and they're considering doing it in a completely half-baked way, that will only marginally address their concern, and create a number of additional problems along the way, you have to say something. That's a fundamental difference between the roles of contractor, and consultant.

      It's true that you need to exercise a certain degree of diplomancy, and you need to be able to deal with people, many of whom will see you as a threat... You can be absolutely certain that at least one guy (The one that came up with the half-baked scheme) is going to be bitter.

      That's the job...

      As far as covering yourself, you need only document your recommendations. Email is sufficient for this... Put your recommendations and your objections in email, and get a delivery confirmations. You cannot be held liable for poor results if your client chooses to disregard your input...

      Quite the contrary, if you are in a consulting role, and you don't speak up, that's probably the bigger risk. If everything goes to hell, they can turn around and say "Why didn't you tell us? You're the expert..."

      It's entirely possible that you'll end up in an environment that's impossible. You're told not to raise objections, or make waves... Essentially, you learn that you've been brought in simply to give a piss-poor project the air of legitimacy... If you do this long enough, it's inevitable. If you find yourself in that position, walk.

      I'm not just saying that... I've done it twice in the past 12 years.

      --
      For those that would die defending it, Freedom
      has a sweet taste that the protected will never know.
    12. Re:You're missing the point by Fastlane · · Score: 1

      Maybe this is the attitude that applys to programming, but I am a consultant in the aircraft industry, and part of my job is to ensure the safety of crew/passengers, and adherence to aviation regulations, so it is a completely different game.
      I often have to speak up. Most customers are NOT familiar with the regulations that apply to thier aircraft, hell, most of them don't even know what part of the regulations apply.
      So I guess the point here is that it really depends on what kind of consultant you are, and what kind of impact it may have. I hope that if it affects safety, you will go with your conscience. If it's only money, well, I would probably at least tell my contractee the alternatives, but leave the decision up to them.

    13. Re:You're missing the point by jez_f · · Score: 1
      If your client is looking to satisfy a requirement, and they're considering doing it in a completely half-baked way, that will only marginally address their concern, and create a number of additional problems along the way,

      Man you just completly described my job. :)
      And for the record I do tend to point it out to them. And get the objection lodged in the requirements docs.
    14. Re:You're missing the point by Toomuchstuff · · Score: 1

      I always ask my clients to "help me understand" a decision and that gives me an opening to help them to reason things out, more time than not they tend to reconsider.

  3. my $0.02 by trmj · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I believe the answer to this lies in the price point.

    Simply stated, if a client is paying cheaply (well, as close as that gets in consulting), they deserve the minimum information and just get what they ask for.

    If a client pays well or tips well or has been a long time repeat client, they deserve that extra time taken to show which judgement would be best and why.

    Note those last two words: "and why." That is the single most important piece of information that is needed when questioning any decision. If you have that ready, your ideas will go much farther.

    Also, take into account how much the client knows about what they are dealing with and how stubborn they are. If you've ever been in sales, then you (hopefully) have some idea as to how to "read" people and present ideas in the way that will relate to them the most. If not, then I would recommend lookng into this type of "people skill," as it comes in very handy when in a bind.

    Just make sure that you don't give them so much information that they feel they no longer need your services, as that could also be a dangerous move. Overall, if you know something they don't, they will pay for that knowledge. And they will continue to pay you as a valuable source of information for a long time.

    --
    Work sucked, until it became unemployment, when it became slightly more tolerable. -Tet
    1. Re:my $0.02 by SquadBoy · · Score: 1

      Also you are right because clearly if you have the second kind of relationship with the client they know that you are good and thus worth the money and likely to listen to you OTOH in the first type they clearly don't respect you. Therefore if they are a "good client" you can safely point out to them what is going on and why.

      When I do consultant type work basically I outline the ways things could be done and then flat out tell them which is the best way. I then let them make the choice. Also like you say I tell them what they should do but *never* how.

      --

      Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
    2. Re:my $0.02 by drob · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think this is really unethical. If you take the job, then do the work. Doing a lousy job not only going to hurt you, it's going to hurt your reputation.

    3. Re:my $0.02 by Evil+Adrian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Simply stated, if a client is paying cheaply (well, as close as that gets in consulting), they deserve the minimum information and just get what they ask for.

      If a client pays well or tips well or has been a long time repeat client, they deserve that extra time taken to show which judgement would be best and why.


      That's just plain irresponsible.

      You are a consultant because they are going to you for advice, in addition to implementation -- if you were there solely for implementation, your title would be "Gofer" or some such.

      In other words, it doesn't matter how much they are paying you, you signed on for the gig, and if they want to implement something that you feel is a bad idea, it's your responsibility -- per your job description -- to advise against it.

      --
      evil adrian
    4. Re:my $0.02 by trmj · · Score: 1

      I never said anything about doing a lousy job, I simply said that if they are going to be cheap / stubborn / inept, you should simply do what is asked. Clearly they don't seem to want your input, they just want the job done, and that's exactly what you should do, down to the finest badly thought out detail.

      --
      Work sucked, until it became unemployment, when it became slightly more tolerable. -Tet
    5. Re:my $0.02 by DutchSter · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think this is really unethical. If you take the job, then do the work. Doing a lousy job not only going to hurt you, it's going to hurt your reputation.

      But you're not doing a lousy job - you're doing exactly what you were paid to do. Legally, consultants are supposed to make a minimal number of decisions that are typically made by the full-time employees, unless that is the express reason for them being there. Consultants are supposed to get in and do what their assignment is. In cases where you are supposed to be deciding policy, ultimately your work will come out through a full-time employee. That is, if you develop a new Email Policy because you're an email consultant, management is going to implement the policy you recommend. YOU are not going to implement anything.

    6. Re:my $0.02 by sydb · · Score: 1

      I don't consider a consultant's key selling point to be "information" - that's what the Internet and books are for.

      Consultants should be appointed for their ability to produce the right answers faster than anyone else. Obviously it helps to have the information in their head, but they should also have the skills to apply it to your situation, to use best practice and to communicate what they are doing.

      To get back on topic, you suggest that the decision comes down to money. I think this is a bit short sighted.

      Usually a consultant is paid for their time, unless they are being expected to complete specific project goals. If you are paid hourly, how does it hurt to stand by your professional beliefs and maintain your reputation? If it's project work, then you either achieve the goal or you don't. If you disagree with the goal, then either your client is wrong, or you are wrong. Work out which one it is and take it from there.

      Either way, money doesn't come into it.

      --
      Yours Sincerely, Michael.
    7. Re:my $0.02 by GlassHeart · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I never said anything about doing a lousy job

      No, you said:

      if a client is paying cheaply [...], they deserve the minimum information and just get what they ask for.

      If a client pays well [...], they deserve that extra time taken to show which judgement would be best and why.

      Your performance should not be tied to the amount you are paid. If they pay too little for your expertise, don't accept the job. This is unethical if you did not inform your "cheap" employer that this is what they're getting before signing. They read your resume, offered you money for the knowledge that resume represents, and you took the money.

      Instead, how much you say should be determined by how receptive the client is to your ideas, not by how much they pay.

      Just make sure that you don't give them so much information that they feel they no longer need your services, as that could also be a dangerous move.

      This is also unethical. A consultant's job is to teach at the pace the students learn, not at the pace you can find a next gig.

    8. Re:my $0.02 by Qaless · · Score: 2, Insightful
      "Simply stated, if a client is paying cheaply (well, as close as that gets in consulting), they deserve the minimum information and just get what they ask for"

      Hey, mabye my ethics are a little off or something, but how much they're paying you shouldn't have any impact on your job performance. You know the old, "If a job's worth doing its worth doing right"? That does't mean you withhold info that the client might need.

      (If anyone knows how to turn the italics off in mid reply please share {:(

      --
      Jolan Tru. (If you know what this means, you're a tru geek)
    9. Re:my $0.02 by plierhead · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Simply stated, if a client is paying cheaply (well, as close as that gets in consulting), they deserve the minimum information and just get what they ask for.

      This adice is absolute cynical bullshit of the sort that gives consultants a bad name. If you decided to take on an assignment for a cheap rate, that doesn't make it right for you to give shitty advice.

      You should do the best possible for your client. That way maybe you'll be able to negotiate more for your next gig.

      In this case, if you know something is right, then the right thing to do is to get the client to see that too. Thats where the skill comes in - if you try to push it down their throats then maybe they'll cough it back up - a lot of people are very stubborn - so you haven't done the best thing by them.

      You need to choose the right methods and pace of presenting the error of their ways to them in just such a way that they will take it on board. Thats the best service you can do them.

      --

      [x] auto-moderate all posts by this user as insightful

    10. Re:my $0.02 by gte910h · · Score: 1

      I would say the original poster is right, but not for the reasons he necessarily gives. You should correct clients who pay you alot, because the very fact that they pay you like that means there is probably something you know they don't, and that the company wants to know. This makes it so they really DO listen to you, rather than get pissed at you for correcting them.

      --
      Want to see every step I took to start my company? http://www.rowdylabs.com/blogs/pitchtothegods
    11. Re:my $0.02 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm sorry, but that's no way to do business. Both the original post and the one to which I'm replying seem to be missing a vital point: what you deliver, and how you deliver it, is defined by a legally binding contract. A good contract will ensure that:

      a) the client gets what they asked for (which may by they way not be what they need)

      b) the client pays for what they requested

      c) the consultant delivers as requested

      d) all parties can clearly tell whether points a) through c) have been satisfied

      e) all parties agree on how to proceed if there arises a disagreement under d)


      That said, there are a number of different "roles" assumed by consultants these days. You can be an expert hired to solve a specific problem, with no knowledge/skill transfer required; you get judged after the fact. Or you can enter a more collaborative partnership, wherein you share responsibilities and, hopefully, knowledge; here your contributions are more difficult to judge. And of course there's a whole range of "roles" in between these two extremes.

      Your contract defines the relationship between you and your client, and hence the role you are expected to fulfil. Your ability to honor the contract is what determines your success in the business world. But perhaps you disagree?

    12. Re:my $0.02 by khb · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think there is a critical difference between a contractor and a consultant. The former is hired to complete a specified task (the more specific the better). The latter is hired to provide information, knowledge, expertise, etc. in order to make better decisions.

      So I'm puzzled at the claim that "make a minimal number of decisions" is to be applied to a consultant. Surely when you consult a lawyer you expect advice, not someone to just file the papers you specify ;>

    13. Re:my $0.02 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Just make sure that you don't give them so much information that they feel they no longer need your services"..
      In my humble opinion this quote violates everything opensource stands for. if people are willing to invest their time to learn i'l do my upmost best to try and teach 'm, its how i learn myself and i consider admitting "i aint know nothing yet" the true mark of a real geek.
      Clients hire my consulting services because --for reasons of their own-- they dont WANT to learn but want a solution for their problem. i provide that, for a nifty paycheck.

      INFORMATION IS FREE!!!
      GO AWAY LEECH!!

    14. Re:my $0.02 by Eneff · · Score: 1

      Your performance should not be tied to the amount you are paid.

      Not performance... information.

      The job will be as well-done.

    15. Re:my $0.02 by Blkdeath · · Score: 1
      Your performance should not be tied to the amount you are paid. If they pay too little for your expertise, don't accept the job. This is unethical if you did not inform your "cheap" employer that this is what they're getting before signing. They read your resume, offered you money for the knowledge that resume represents, and you took the money.

      Sometimes you have to take "cheap" jobs to make bills and put food in your mouth. More than once I've taken a job to put gas in my car along the way.

      While I don't agree entirely with trmj, I also don't believe in going "the extra mile" for the minimum amount of money. I'll work my butt off while I'm being paid a fair amount, but I won't work over time, I won't go out on a limb, or above and beyond my job description. It's just not worth the risk or headache.

      If they want a $100/hr consultant for $30/hr, they're in for dissapointment.

      --
      BD Phone Home!

      Shameless plug. Like you weren't expecting it.

    16. Re:my $0.02 by vandel405 · · Score: 1

      What part of this am I missing. I mean, a consultant should consult. And when i think of consulting, i think of explaining the situation, and reasoning out a workable solution with them. Your situation doesn't seem to be consulting anything since they just tell you what to do and you have to implement it, and are just thinking about if you should debate. Sounds more like contract programming...

      Maybe i'm off base here, if so, just let me know.

    17. Re:my $0.02 by trmj · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, all too often is the term consultant confused with information technology specialist, which results in people being labelled as the former and doing the work of the latter.

      I am under the impression that the person asking fits nicely into that scenario, and is trying to decide whether or not a bit of real consulting should be thrown in, and to what extent.

      --
      Work sucked, until it became unemployment, when it became slightly more tolerable. -Tet
    18. Re:my $0.02 by DutchSter · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I think there is a critical difference between a contractor and a consultant. The former is hired to complete a specified task (the more specific the better). The latter is hired to provide information, knowledge, expertise, etc. in order to make better decisions.

      In my experience working as a consultant and contractor, the terms are used interchangably. I always went by what my contract said I was brought on to do, not the title that was attached to my position. Titles really mean nothing - it all comes down to the bottom line: What are you being paid to do? I wish I would've had a chance to read the original posters contract, but it sounds like he is the code-monkey type who doesn't like something in the project, not directly related to his task. It would be TOTALLY different if he was hired as a project management consultant.

      When you hire a lawyer, you are explicitly seeking her advice and guidance. When you contract with a programmer to develop something from *your* requirements, it's questionable whether that type of person should be questioning the objectives, regardless of what you call them. That programmer's relationship with, and obligations to the client is entirely and only defined by the written agreement between them.

    19. Re:my $0.02 by robmered · · Score: 1

      Simply stated, if a client is paying cheaply (well, as close as that gets in consulting), they deserve the minimum information and just get what they ask for.

      The difference between a consultant and a contractor should be that a consultant is more than a simple body supplying labour. They are supposed to provide expertise and knowledge on how to apply the labour to solve problems effectively. A consultant has a professional duty, that has nothing to do with the fee charged (ie. it applies whether the rates are high, low, or pro bono), to inform the client of concerns or issues that they think are not in the best interests of the client. That doesn't mean that the consultant has to win the day, or even walk out the door if the client decides otherwise, but the concerns should be aired. Good practice would also dictate that the advice be documented and signed off by the client to acknowledge that if things turn pear-shaped, the consultant is not held legally and morally responsible for the decision.

      The advice provided by the OP is professionally negligent and unethical (I sure as hell wouldn't hire him).

    20. Re:my $0.02 by robmered · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not performance... information. The job will be as well-done.

      Provision of information is part of the job of a consultant. It's not up to you to ensure the client takes the information on board, but it is up to you to ensure the client is as informed as possible.

    21. Re:my $0.02 by robmered · · Score: 1

      Exactly.

    22. Re:my $0.02 by C10H14N2 · · Score: 1

      Considering that a consultant is generally hired to provide their knowledge, this notion of not revealing information while simultaneously charging for your time seems rather unethical. However, if you are hired in a programmer capacity and are compensated as such, being dragged in to a system architect role would be unethical on the client's side. It is not out of order to simply point this out. Rather than get into a game of non-communication, simply stating, "I am here in XYZ capacity and that falls into ABC capacity" communicates that you intend to provide all of your services to ethical standards and expect the same in return. I have been faced with the idiotic decisions of management before, such as choosing a $100k product before evaluations have been completed or attempting to dictate system architectures with no justification. In any such situation, it is arguably the consultants responsibility to state an educated opinion on the choice. If that opinion is not acted upon, it is a tough choice whether the relationship should continue. Often it is not unwise to leave the ship and let the captain who drove it into the iceberg go down without you.

    23. Re:my $0.02 by maxII · · Score: 1

      I think that the original poster probably works for a pimping company and not for himself, therefore the reputation of his work doesn't reflect on himself so much as the pimping company, so he figures he can get away with disrespecting the company he's subcontracted to. If i'm wrong, may there be mercy on all of us consultants when employers read this disgusting thread.

    24. Re:my $0.02 by HeyLaughingBoy · · Score: 3, Insightful
      You are a consultant because they are going to you for advice, in addition to implementation -- if you were there solely for implementation, your title would be "Gofer" or some such.

      Hear, hear!!
      This question isn't only relevant to consultants/contractors. As a software engineer employee it's my responsibility to question decisions I feel are wrong. I'm not just paid to pound out code and documents, but to evaluate what I'm asked to do and find the appropriate path to a solution. In fact, the ACM code of ethics covers this somewhere (I'm just too lazy right now to read the whole thing to find out where :-)
      In fact, this goes beyond ethics: bad decisions by your employer can cause the company that employs you to fail
    25. Re:my $0.02 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you are a peice of slime

    26. Re:my $0.02 by arkanes · · Score: 1

      It's a matter of semantics, and you might get companies that call people consultants when they're doing contracting work, but in general usage, it's almost always used as the grandparent said, and I think we should maintain that usage, even if the legal title is something different. No matter what you're called, if you're hired to provide your expertise and information, you're a consultant, and if you're hired to complete a task, then you're a contractor. Simple as that.

    27. Re:my $0.02 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course he's unethical...

      He's from sales....

    28. Re:my $0.02 by T5 · · Score: 1

      The answer definitely isn't the price point. It's whether the work that you will be performing is ethically sound for both yourself and the client. Remember, it's their business. You have an obligation to see that you provide a value-added service. However, this must be a value-added deal for both the company and yourself. If it's not, then walk. If you're unwilling to provide your best, then walk. If you feel that you have to withhold information from them lest they learn too much and no longer need you, then get out of consulting and get a regular job. There are far too many consultants who hold their clients hostage/play the BOFH card who sully the reputations of those of us who don't act unethically/unprofessionally.

    29. Re:my $0.02 by TopShelf · · Score: 1

      This is incredibly short-sighted. If you take the cheap route and knowingly implement something that you know won't meet the client's needs, then you're helping to create a negative experience that they will gladly tell other potential clients about, even if the fault is largely theirs...

      --
      Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
    30. Re:my $0.02 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      You can't turn off italics?

      You must be an HTML consultant.

    31. Re:my $0.02 by billcopc · · Score: 1

      Agreed. If you bend over backwards for a poorly-paying job, then the client will expect everyone to bend over for peanuts, and if you don't do it, they'll find someone dumber to do it. There is a market value for consultant work and people have to stick to it, otherwise cheap labor will ruin the industry for all of us. That's why there's 'economy class' and 'first class', but you'll never get 'first class' service at economy price, or else the first class will cease to exist.

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
    32. Re:my $0.02 by budgenator · · Score: 1

      The biggest problem with only giving 60% effort for 60% fee is sooner or later you get to used to 60% effort. Personaly I have good days and bad day so output naturaly varies, but I always do the best I can with the resorces available so I never have trouble looking in the mirror.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    33. Re:my $0.02 by gwJ · · Score: 1

      I agree that you should only give enough info as requested. Many times, I have seen other consultant friends as well as myself not retain a position through the final processes because to much information was given too fast. I have also seen those same clients not complete those projects or pay more than they should have because they felt they could retain all of those facts, and didn't or they tired to hire someone else to complete it after they realized they could not finish without my help. Most clients get an idea of how to save a buck by spending four. I also feel that to maintain ethics once hired to do a gig outline what step will be needed. However, keep it just that an outline, nothing more. This will give the client an idea of how many steps and a time line of completion and progress.

    34. Re:my $0.02 by HyperHyper · · Score: 1

      >Just make sure that you don't give them so much >information that they feel they no longer need >your services, as that could also be a dangerous >move. You know, as a consultant, I try and try to fight this stereotype in the industry every day. I was taught early in my career that my job as a consultant was to work my way out of a job. I was hired because I was an expert in a certain area that the company was lacking in. I do the job, train others how to do it and move on. Done and done. If you want long term stability and want to horde information become a full time employee. What irks me is that while I do this, I see other "consultants" come in at 10:00am, leave at 3:00pm and while they collect their $900 for the day, they surf the web, train themselves on Java and managed their portfolio. Now wonder consultants get lumped in with the leeches of society. I know not everyone can get a good 'boss' to report to but the ones I've had have been great. By working myself out of a job, they recognize that I am a leader and can get the job done. Once I complete the task, they give the maintenance to people who enjoy that style of work. This of course frees me up to take on the new and exciting stuff. I realize that there is work that is boring and monotonous that can turn into long term stability for a consultant but to withhold useful information from a client is only betraying your work ethic. I'm sorry but I was brought up to do the best job I can and that's what allows me to rise to the top of the pack because I am honest and forthcoming with informtion. If they don't use it, then it's not my problem but I know that I did what I could. As a result, I've been getting calls for job opportunities at least 1x every 2 weeks for the past 2 years. Can most of the consultants who horde their information claim that? Sorry about this rant but it's been building for a while... I'm not lashing out at you in particular Tom but just the overall philosophy of hoarding information that you really should be offering. It merely shows that people are insecure about their skills and they wish to hold onto what they have instead of developing themselves into something better. Sure, you can use the argument that there is political gain by not putting everything out on the table but that's your spin. Deep down inside, you know the truth.. it all boils down to greed... My $3.25 Darcy

    35. Re:my $0.02 by bernywork · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Your performance should not be tied to the amount you are paid. Bullshit.
      If a client pays well [...], they deserve that extra time taken to show which judgement would be best and why. I will add in here that they shouldn't be an arsehole either.

      Too true. Welcome to the real world GlassHeart. Sorry to shatter your image of it.

      Lets look at facts here, someone who is easy to get along with, provides me with nice challenging work, and that says thank you. When you hand over a working solution to the customer with no interuption to the business (Where possible) and pays me well is going to get my time of day.

      Someone who is a pain in the arse, doesn't implement any recommendations that I put forward and fucks me around on the bill, if they ask for me next time, either is going to get turned down or I am not going to put my neck out for them.

      Some of my customers have gone through good times and bad, I have one customer who has gone from 10 employees to over 200 and then dropped back, I was with them the whole way through everything that they did. They have paid me well, and have gone from paying about 10% of my yearly income to over 50% and then back again. I will ask to call other clients back, so that I can take calls from these guys.

      They have been brilliant, they pay on time, they are nice, and they do what they need to to keep an edge. They are the clients that you want.

      The good thing about contracting is that for the most of the time you do have the ability to pick your clients.

      I would never do a lousy job on a site. Never.

      Would I research something for a couple of hours, build documentation and scripted install / un-install, write additional administration documentation or anything else (without charge) to stay on the good side of a poor customer, not a chance.

      --
      Curiosity was framed; ignorance killed the cat. -- Author unknown
    36. Re:my $0.02 by GlassHeart · · Score: 1
      Someone who is a pain in the arse, doesn't implement any recommendations that I put forward and fucks me around on the bill, if they ask for me next time, either is going to get turned down or I am not going to put my neck out for them.

      But this is not the case we're talking about. The situation in question is whether the client should be provided vital information. I still maintain that it is your responsibility - your side of the deal - to provide the information and advice. The decision to accept or reject your suggestion is up to the client, but you may not withhold it.

      Read the original post again. The person classified "to show which judgement would be best and why" as extra work.

    37. Re:my $0.02 by GlassHeart · · Score: 1
      If you bend over backwards for a poorly-paying job, then the client will expect everyone to bend over for peanuts

      Or you might bump into somebody who recognizes your effort, and reward you in some other way, like introduce you to other potential clients. Don't be shortsighted.

      if you don't do it, they'll find someone dumber to do it.

      Then that's their loss, isn't it? You're already charging Economy fare for First Class service, and these guys still don't get it?

      There is a market value for consultant work and people have to stick to it, otherwise cheap labor will ruin the industry for all of us.

      I don't think you understand what "market value" means. The market value of a product or service is the price at which somebody is willing to sell, and somebody else is willing to buy at. Collectively conspiring to charge a particular high amount is exactly what anti-trust laws guard against.

    38. Re:my $0.02 by ATMAvatar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Do you mean this?

      2.5 Give comprehensive and thorough evaluations of computer systems and their impacts, including analysis of possible risks.

      Computer professionals must strive to be perceptive, thorough, and objective when evaluating, recommending, and presenting system descriptions and alternatives. Computer professionals are in a position of special trust, and therefore have a special responsibility to provide objective, credible evaluations to employers, clients, users, and the public. When providing evaluations the professional must also identify any relevant conflicts of interest, as stated in imperative 1.3.

      As noted in the discussion of principle 1.2 on avoiding harm, any signs of danger from systems must be reported to those who have opportunity and/or responsibility to resolve them. See the guidelines for imperative 1.2 for more details concerning harm,including the reporting of professional violations.


      2.6 Honor contracts, agreements, and assigned responsibilities.

      Honoring one's commitments is a matter of integrity and honesty.For the computer professional this includes ensuring that system elements perform as intended. Also, when one contracts for work with another party, one has an obligation to keep that party properly informed about progress toward completing that work.

      A computing professional has a responsibility to request a change in any assignment that he or she feels cannot be completed as defined. Only after serious consideration and with full disclosure of risks and concerns to the employer or client, should one accept the assignment. The major underlying principle here is the obligation to accept personal accountability for professional work. On some occasions other ethical principles may take greater priority.

      A judgment that a specific assignment should not be performed may not be accepted. Having clearly identified one's concerns and reasons for that judgment, but failing to procure a change in that assignment, one may yet be obligated, by contract or by law, to proceed as directed. The computing professional's ethical judgment should be the final guide in deciding whether or not to proceed. Regardless of the decision, one must accept the responsibility for the consequences.

      However, performing assignments "against one's own judgment" does not relieve the professional of responsibility for any negative consequences.

      --
      "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
    39. Re:my $0.02 by GlassHeart · · Score: 4, Insightful
      If they want a $100/hr consultant for $30/hr, they're in for dissapointment.

      Here's how free market capitalism works. You do not inherently deserve $100 an hour, no matter how well trained you are, and no matter how many $100 an hour gigs you've landed before. You only deserve $100 an hour if somebody is willing to pay at least that, right now. If the only job offer you can find pays $30 an hour, you're worth $30 an hour. Obsessing about your vaporized $100 rate, or worse, doing a sub-par job because of it, will serve no one well.

    40. Re:my $0.02 by Blkdeath · · Score: 1
      If the only job offer you can find pays $30 an hour, you're worth $30 an hour. Obsessing about your vaporized $100 rate, or worse, doing a sub-par job because of it, will serve no one well.

      That's not what I'm saying at all. Quite the opposite, in fact. I never said that I would do 'sub-par' work; only that I wouldn't go the extra mile for the minimum amount of money offerred. The figures I presented were examples only, and not to be taken as a literal argument. It could be the difference between $30/hr and $18/hr, or $60/hr and $20/hr. The exact figures will, of course, vary according to a person's experience, qualifications, and market share in their area.

      If I'm going to have to stress myself out arguing with a client, risking losing my position because they don't want me to disagree with their decisions and overall don't respect my expertise enough to pay me what I'm worth (opposed to what they can afford right now. See 'short term savings' versus 'long term losses'), I won't do it. If they plan on implementing something that I feel is inadviseable, I will tell them as much, and I will explain to them why I feel this way. I will not, however, put in additional hours of research and spend time preparing exhaustive presentations on the matter, for example.

      If they continue to go against my reccomendations, I'll inform them that since my presence is no longer required it's time for me to find a position elsewhere.

      --
      BD Phone Home!

      Shameless plug. Like you weren't expecting it.

    41. Re:my $0.02 by TheMidget · · Score: 1
      That's why there's 'economy class' and 'first class', but you'll never get 'first class' service at economy price, or else the first class will cease to exist.

      Not true. Free upgrades do happen. If (due to overbooking or other SNAFU) Economy class is full, and there are still a couple of seats left in Business, they'll gladly give you Business without additional cost. And during the flight, you are treated the same way as those passengers that actually paid for Business.

    42. Re:my $0.02 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      It is official; Netcraft now confirms: *BSD is dying

      One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered *BSD community when IDC confirmed that *BSD market share has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of a recent Netcraft survey which plainly states that *BSD has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.

      You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict *BSD's future. The hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are looking very bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood.

      FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers. The sudden and unpleasant departures of long time FreeBSD developers Jordan Hubbard and Mike Smith only serve to underscore the point more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: FreeBSD is dying.

      Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.

      OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.

      Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.

      All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among OS dilettante dabblers. *BSD continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, *BSD is dead.

      Fact: *BSD is dying

    43. Re:my $0.02 by sql*kitten · · Score: 1

      I believe the answer to this lies in the price point.

      Not quite, it lies in the contract. If you're hired as a contract programmer or a sysadmin, then program and administer whatever you're told to do and submit an invoice at the end of the week for hours worked. The client is a responsible adult (legally, if not in practice) and if he wants you to do something, he's paying for your time, so do it. If that means spending 6 months doing something that you could do by another technique in 6 weeks, that's not your problem - in this contract, you're just a "grunt".

      If however you're hired as a management or technology consultant, then you are being paid for your considered opinions and advice. These contracts are usually different, rather than hours worked, you will bid a fixed fee for a piece of work, which might not even be code, but just a report or an evaluation. These types of contracts are supposed to decouple the result from the work, so if your advice is ignored and the project is a disaster you still get paid, and also you have no incentive to inflate the work, so you can be objective.

      It depends on your priorities. If you want steady but dull work, go for the former type of contract, if you want intellectual challenge but a lot less predictability of where your next cheque is coming from, go for the latter.

    44. Re:my $0.02 by RALE007 · · Score: 1

      I whole heartedly agree. I'm not a "yessir I'll destroy the company for you sir" person. I'm hired for my expertise, not to facilitate bad decisions. Anyone who works unethically is not a professional, they are a two bit hack and give the rest of us a bad name. Kudos on your professionalism.

      --
      Beware blue cats moving at .99c
    45. Re:my $0.02 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really?
      I'm on my 12th contract, and in practically all of them both have been required.
      Sometimes the balance is more one way that the other.

    46. Re:my $0.02 by operagost · · Score: 1

      I have six years of experience in desktop support and systems administration. I WISH I could get $30/hr. Well, that's how much they're paying my company- 30-35. I get about 60% of that. *sigh*

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    47. Re:my $0.02 by Hellkitty · · Score: 1

      If you bend over backwards for a poorly-paying job, then the client will expect everyone to bend over for peanuts, and if you don't do it, they'll find someone dumber to do it. There is a market value for consultant work and people have to stick to it, otherwise cheap labor will ruin the industry for all of us.

      No, it is attitudes like this that is ruining the industry for all of us. You are there to support the customer - not the other way around. It is techies who are getting too big for their britches and forgetting that there is always someone who knows more and always someone willing to do a little more for a little less that are ruining it for all of us.

    48. Re:my $0.02 by GlassHeart · · Score: 1
      If I'm going to have to stress myself out arguing with a client, risking losing my position because they don't want me to disagree with their decisions and overall don't respect my expertise enough to pay me what I'm worth

      Nobody is talking about stressing yourself out arguing with a client. You should never argue with a client. Instead, we're talking about...

      If they plan on implementing something that I feel is inadviseable, I will tell them as much, and I will explain to them why I feel this way.

      ...where we are in agreement. Remember that the original post considered this as "extra mile" work. I consider this part of the job, if not the main job of a technical consultant.

      On the other hand, you're also still stuck on the inherent value business. You can't set a price for yourself (say, $100/hr). You're not worth $100/hr until somebody actually pays you $100/hr. Look at it this way: do you feel guilt if you were paid $500 an hour when you're only "worth" $100 an hour? Do you return the money?

    49. Re:my $0.02 by Blkdeath · · Score: 1
      On the other hand, you're also still stuck on the inherent value business. You can't set a price for yourself (say, $100/hr). You're not worth $100/hr until somebody actually pays you $100/hr.

      I could say that you're stuck on the antagonistic "you're not worth..." line of thought, which is not only incorrect (literal figures aside; see my previous post) but is decidedly counter-productive.

      When I'm working a job, I bust my ass and I do my best. Always have, always will. However there is a time when you do the letter of the contract and there's a time when you go out of your way. Yes, advising against poor decisions is part of the job, but no, working on my own time for a client who wants to cut corners, pay me the smallest amount possible, go against my advice despite good reason to the contrary and niggle over every point is not an option.

      Some contracts are just not worth the headache, no matter what the work and no matter what the pay. I've walked away from contracts because I would have not only lost money, but lost hair in the process of executing it.

      Look at it this way: do you feel guilt if you were paid $500 an hour when you're only "worth" $100 an hour? Do you return the money?

      If a client paid me exorbitant amounts of money over what I'm worth, yes, I'll be suspicious. Of course, that's an extreme hypothetical and not terribly likely to happen here in the real world, so it's a moot point anyways.

      --
      BD Phone Home!

      Shameless plug. Like you weren't expecting it.

    50. Re:my $0.02 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As the hired "expert" it's your duty to give any client your best judgement and why, not just those who pay well or tip well. This is basic professional ethics. If you can't provide your best effort at the agreed price, then you should not have accepted the job in the first place.

    51. Re:my $0.02 by GlassHeart · · Score: 1
      Yes, advising against poor decisions is part of the job, but no, working on my own time for a client who wants to cut corners, pay me the smallest amount possible, go against my advice despite good reason to the contrary and niggle over every point is not an option.

      Agreed. I was never discussing doing more than your job description for a client who you feel isn't worth it.

      I could say that you're stuck on the antagonistic "you're not worth..." line of thought [...] If a client paid me exorbitant amounts of money over what I'm worth, yes, I'll be suspicious.

      No, my point is that you should take it, other than the usual suspicions on whether the job is even legal. If somebody offered you $500 legitimate job when you usually charge $100, take it, you're worth it.

      On the other hand, if the best offer you can get is $30, take that, too, because you need to eat. Either way, you should do a good job, because the minimum quality of your job is a function of your personal work ethic, not a function of your pay. The "over and above the call of duty" kind of work you can reserve for the best employers.

    52. Re:my $0.02 by billcopc · · Score: 1

      In a sense (if your mind can twist far enough), maintaining a certain baseline price that's reasonable for both client and consultant, is doing a service to the clientele in general. By defining a known level of QoS for a decent price, it's teaching the client to be wary of other consultants that may charge much less for 'the same job', though the quality will vary greatly.

      In my opinion there is no such thing as doing a bad job unless you're no good to begin with. You either do it or you don't, whether you're making 500$ or 5000$, once you've accepted the contract you have to do it THE RIGHT WAY. Unless I have a personal grudge against my client (and he didn't know it?!), I just couldn't offer a lesser service just because the money isn't as plentiful as I would have liked. I do it just the same. And because the service itself doesn't scale down, the price must not be scaled down either.

      A company that pays less, gets stuck with mindless consultants who probably know more about marketing and mindgames than the actual work, because those people are interested in getting lots of cheap contracts and not really caring about the work they're doing.

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
  4. when it affects your paycheck by b17bmbr · · Score: 1

    it it ain't illegal, unethical, or immoral, you're basically being paid to be a professional yes man so mid level PHB's can say "hey look, the consultant agreed." it's a CYA thing. our school district has done this. many times. arghhhh!!!

    --
    My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
    1. Re:when it affects your paycheck by applef00 · · Score: 1

      Having worked in a public school district, I can relate. But, I always made sure that any objections I had were logged so that if something did go screwy, nobody was able to say, "hey look, he agreed." It's a CYA thing. ;)

    2. Re:when it affects your paycheck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it it ain't illegal, unethical, or immoral, you're basically being paid to be a professional yes man so mid level PHB's can say "hey look, the consultant agreed." it's a CYA thing. our school district has done this. many times. arghhhh!!!

      I hope you develop the skills needed to grow out of this type of employment. I have used consultants who have almost entirely rewritten a plan for me, they had the 'people skills needed to let me feel as though I did all the work. But I know it was they, I could see it in the very large check I signed. If they had yessed their way through it, I would no longer use their services.

  5. Doh! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Am I first? Well, just for the record, "he who pays the piper calls the tune". You don't know what political games are being played in your client's company. Point out your concerns and if told to go forward anyway, go forward. JSFIADO. Just say fuck it and drive on.

  6. That very much depends ... by bryanp · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ... on the reaction you get the first time you try it. As an employee or contractor I would feel obligated to point out why something may be a bad idea. If I get my head bitten off after that I would default to "Yes sir, here you go, exactly what you asked for." Fortunately I have a boss who listens when I point things out. Sometimes he acts on my recommendations. Sometimes his response is "You have a point, but we're still doing it this way."

    Yeah, I know - a lousy answer, but it's the only one I've got.

    --
    "An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." Col. Jeff Cooper
    1. Re:That very much depends ... by Alan+Cox · · Score: 1

      I think I'd second that. Assuming you care about the customer then you owe it to them to say "Look I think this is wrong. I'll do it your way its your call but....", and in one or two cases where there way genuinely cannot be done you actually have to turn down a job with a good customer. Its bad for the short term sometimes but its good long term business. Especially if you are carefully to say "I can't do that job in that time for you this way" not "You are a dork" 8)

    2. Re:That very much depends ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is very much the best way to do it. Some of you folks are right, they only should get what they pay for, but I love doing this too much to let someone else make a bad decision without at least trying to help them.

      First time they get pissy because I try to help tho is where the free advice ( essentially ) ends.

      ( I'm comfortable in many fields, from db design to programming to networking, so I get quite a bit of cross work on my jobs )

    3. Re:That very much depends ... by etymxris · · Score: 1

      I'll third that. No one wants a "Yes" man. When the shit hits the fan, there will be hell to pay. And then when business starts saying, "How come we didn't see this was going to happen," you'll look good, and feel better, knowing that you suggested the right action before it was too late.

    4. Re:That very much depends ... by arkanes · · Score: 1

      Sadly, many people DO want a yes man, because when the shit hits the fan they've got the umbrella. Management politics are fucked :P People who actually do work don't want yes men.

    5. Re:That very much depends ... by Carlinya · · Score: 1

      On the person. Personally, you should tell them WHY their idea is a bad one, and then suggest a better one to them. If they refuse to listen, well then, look for a compromise and increase your asking fee. Hey, if that didn't work, well, too bad for them.

      In my experience most people will listen if you are stubborn about the whole project.

      Vanity of Vanities. Kill the Buddha as you meet him. Kill the son as you meet him. Kill the father as you meet him. Don't be captivated by anything, just live life the way you are.

      --
      1 + 1 = 3?
    6. Re:That very much depends ... by HiThere · · Score: 1

      It depends a lot on what's involved. If they won't take advice, make sure that you aren't set up to be a fall guy.

      It depends a lot on what's involved. What does your contract say you are supposed to do? If you're just supposed to do the job, then go ahead and do it, but try to get written specs. If you're supposed to design the project, or equivalent, then look for a quick way out. You don't want your name as the designer of a spectacular failure.

      OTOH, an awful lot of consultants make a decent salary by finding out what people want them to recommend, and recommending it. So perhaps the penalties for "your name as the designer of a spectacular failure" aren't that great.

      And it depends on your own personal situation, too. Are you in a position where you can afford to choose honor over expediency? If they won't listen to your advice, start asking yourself that in a serious way.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  7. been there, a lot. by geekoid · · Score: 4, Informative

    what I do is explain why my experience and expertese tells me it is a wrong thing to do. I give examples, and send it to the appropriet people. I tell them I feel its part of my resposibilty to the company to give them my opinion and expert analysy. then I do it how they want me to.

    This tact has always been met warmly. They don't always go with my suggestion, but they always appriate my input.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    1. Re:been there, a lot. by Soko · · Score: 1, Funny

      what I do is explain why my experience and expertese tells me it is a wrong thing to do. I give examples, and send it to the appropriet people. I tell them I feel its part of my resposibilty to the company to give them my opinion and expert analysy. then I do it how they want me to.

      This tact has always been met warmly. They don't always go with my suggestion, but they always appriate my input.


      Well said.

      Next week: Should a consultant use a spell checker before they submit a document for public perusal, or could that construed as being too "newbieish" and cause the client some concern? Stay tuned.

      Soko

      --
      "Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm." - Anonymous
    2. Re:been there, a lot. by Soko · · Score: 3, Funny

      *Whimper*

      ...or could that be construed as being too...

      *Sits down and waits for "The Revenge of the Karma Police"*

      --
      "Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm." - Anonymous
    3. Re:been there, a lot. by cryms0n · · Score: 1

      Haw haw!

    4. Re:been there, a lot. by cryms0n · · Score: 1

      Heh, oops, that should be:

      <Nelson>Haw, haw!</Nelson>

    5. Re:been there, a lot. by greenrd · · Score: 1
      I'd like to point out that this yet again confirm's greenrd's law:
      Any post correcting someone else's grammar or spelling (or about spelling or grammar) will inevitably contain a grammatical or spelling mistake itself.

    6. Re:been there, a lot. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was there too. Even though I had 15 years in the IT industry, people told me they wanted somebody "certified" to come in. So, I went out and in the course of a year got my MCSE, CNE, CNA, CCA, and Compaq ASE. Don't think I was any better qualified after taking these tests (How much memory does it take to run NT 4 Workstation? answer: C. More than you've got). Now I was able to get in and talk to these people, and I did make more money. However, even when I told people that there were better cheaper solutions then MS, they would politlely nod and ignore the advice. I shouldn't complain I guess, I made a lot of money patching IIS and all those other MS "solutions". Fortunately for me, I got a job a couple of years ago in the IT department of a fair-size stable company. They don't care about certs, just what you can do. I was quite pleased to tell Microsoft to kiss my ass when they warned me my NT 4 MCSE was going to expire. Now, I'm spending my days trying to rid my company of as many M$ products as possible. The saying is the customer is always right. Well, the customer is not always right, but they are always the customer. Do the best job you can for them, give them an honest opinion, respect their rights, and at the day, you can look at yourself in the mirror and know you put in an honest days work.

  8. Good for you in the long run? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    This can be generalized to any professional in any field, I don't see why it's limited to discussion of contract work (other than the fact that that's what the submitter happens to be right now). As a professional, you should view it as an obligation to provide as much information as is necessary and pertinent for your employer to make an informed decision. Given that information, it is their responsibility to make that decision or delegate it, to you or someone else. Once that decision has been made, given that you and others provided the relevent information, you just have to live with it, personal opinions aside.

  9. Pick your battles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How right are you, and how right do they think they are? If you're really really right, and this isn't minor, then of course, stand up for the decision. If it's a bad decision, but it's minor, mention it, but don't push it. If they love the bad idea, tell them it's bad, but do the job.

  10. CYA by Ribo99 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I would say always make your fears known. It's called CYA (Cover Yer Ass), you don't want to be blamed when what you feared comes to pass.

    If for whatever reason you can't then it's tough luck for the customer. Any company that doesn't keep an open dialog is doomed to failure I would think.

    --
    I wear pants.
    1. Re:CYA by kettch · · Score: 2, Interesting

      When you CYA make sure that you do it in some sort of trackable form. A phone call or face to face conversation can be denied or forgotten. Make sure that you do something that you can keep a copy of like send and email. Then you will always have a copy of the warning and it will have sent to and a date in the header. It is also good to cc it to bunches of people and your secure server on Sealand. It may sound like overkill, but this sort of paranoia has CYA'd me many times.

      --
      Opportunities multiply as they are seized. --Sun-Tzu
  11. Do the right thing by MicroBiscuit · · Score: 1

    Do the right thing for the customer and the right thing for you as a consultant. Sometimes that means you will have to fire the customer. Trust me, you are there because the customer wants to get bitch-slapped and be told what to do, so earn that money and do it.

    1. Re:Do the right thing by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1
      Agreed. Here is not a way to consult.

  12. document everything by Patersmith · · Score: 2, Interesting


    This is, in fact, a very simple situation. Get your marching orders in writing. Document your objections and suggested solutions in writing. Get the employer's reaction in writing. In the end it's their ass that's on the line, not the contractor's, and you have the documentation to prove it.

    Believe me, it works.

    1. Re:document everything by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      It doesn't sound like you're a consultant.

      Getting everything in writing is a programmer's or an accountant's way of thinking.

      As a consultant, what matters is not who's at fault but whether or not they'll take you on again. Pulling out your realms of CYA materials and going "AHA !!! Look here, you said..." is not going to help you one bit there.

    2. Re:document everything by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sad but true. Nobody likes to feel someone is writing down everything they are saying. They hired a consultant NOT a lawyer.

  13. Why do companies hire consultants? by GuyMannDude · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Presumably, companies hire consultants because they need technical expertise.

    I'm not sure if I'd make that assumption. A company may hire a consultant because they want an outside opinion. Everyone at the company gets so used to thinking the same way they lose sight of the forest for the trees. If I were a consultant, one of the first things I would make sure I understand is exactly why I'm being hired. It is entirely possible that the company may claim to want an outside opinion but there actions seems to indicate that they do not. In such cases, you may need to remind them periodicially what you were hired to do.

    If, for some reason, you don't have this initial discussion with them, I think you still have to assume that they want you to critically examine their decisions. If they finally get fed up with you questioning their every move, I'm sure they'll let you know. At that point you can decide whether you want to continue to work for a company that disregards your opinion.

    GMD

    1. Re:Why do companies hire consultants? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the other reason they hire contractors and consultants is to meet a short-term need. they might have the expertise, but lack the human resources to complete a project.

    2. Re:Why do companies hire consultants? by estes_grover · · Score: 1

      Presumably, companies hire consultants because they need technical expertise.

      I'm not sure if I'd make that assumption. A company may hire a consultant because they want an outside opinion.

      Agreed! Companies often hire consultants (highly paid, too) to tell them the same thing their Sr. tech staff is saying. Bad for staff morale of course and gives rise to the saying: A consultant is someone who borrows your wrist watch to tell you the time.

    3. Re:Why do companies hire consultants? by PCM2 · · Score: 1
      I'm not sure if I'd make that assumption. A company may hire a consultant because they want an outside opinion. Everyone at the company gets so used to thinking the same way they lose sight of the forest for the trees.
      Bingo. Absolutely. I've seen this even in things like Web development jobs. A company will hire an outside agency to create a Web page for them. All the while they do nothing but bitch and complain. Outside agency busts its collective asses, working weekends and nights, to produce what the company seems to be asking for. When all's said and done, the company issues a sniffy acknowledgement, then two months later they tear the whole thing down and re-design the site in-house.

      As it turns out, the problem wasn't so much that the company needed outside expertise to get the job done -- in fact, there were plenty of people on staff who took offense at the very suggestion. The problem was that the corporate culture was such that they were completely incapable of coming to a decision until they got someone from the outside to make some for them. Once that was done, they were able to conclude that none of the decisions made were right for them and they really wanted to proceed in another direction entirely.

      Should they have been able to communicate their needs from the very start? Of course. But again, that would have required their internal meetings to actually have been productive, and as we all know, they all too frequently are not.

      Should the consultant [outside Web agency] feel bad for not having been able to convince the client that its ideas/decisions were the right ones? I'd say hell no -- in fact, the chances of that happening were minimal from the very beginning. Take the money and move on.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    4. Re:Why do companies hire consultants? by Wrath0fb0b · · Score: 1

      This is absolutely true.

      When people are surrounded by people that think in lock-step with their own ideas they are very prone to micalculation.Military planners call it "incestuous multiplication" are are taught to avoid it like the plague.

      Corporate america would do well to think about it.

      ~

    5. Re:Why do companies hire consultants? by HiThere · · Score: 1

      I don't understand the reasons, but:
      Consultants are often hired to report what the staff has decided is appropriate, as if it were coming from an impartial outside source. Staff knows this. Management has to know this (sometimes it's blatant in the RFP). But the decision can't be made until an outside expert has approved it.

      Perhaps this is only the organization I work in, but there are such a diverse group of consultants that seem adept at fulfilling this role that I really doubt it. Of course, a lot doesn't have to be said, because anyone technically competent would come to the same decision, but some does, as there are often many valid approaches. I frequently don't know how they zero in on the approach that staff has decided is best. Probably private conversations, and carefully listening for key terms. ("Did I just hear someone say 'XUL'?")

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    6. Re:Why do companies hire consultants? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a lot of times, companies hire consultants because of a temporary increase in demand for manpower -- when getting a full-time employee and internalizing them into the corporate structure/culture isnt worth it. I.e., consultant = a very experienced temp.

  14. Re:My suggstion by valkraider · · Score: 2, Funny

    Doesn't work. Usually they just buy you a cheap dinner, and stick you with the CEO's aging wife...

  15. Consultant or contractor? by Kysh · · Score: 5, Informative

    The difference between a consultant and a contractor is just exactly that which you mention.
    A contractor typically agrees to do a job, supplies the tools and expertise, and completes the project as agreed.

    A consultant takes a problem, develops a plan of action, and is entrusted with providing an opinion on anything that is detrimental. As a consultant, it's your JOB to bring it up-- But if they say "We know, but we just want it done this way", well that's then your job.

    A 'consultant' is someone who is brought in tooffer their advice, expertise and so forth.(Thus the word 'consultant', or 'one who is consulted')
    Once they have done so, many bounce back and forth between consultant and contractor-- Writing the job tasks and then following through with them. By definition, the input of a consultant is wanted- She works primarily in the business/planning sense, almost as more of an adviser or planner.

    I've done both extensively, myself,for your reference.

    -Kysh

    --
    --=:: Wings and tail and snout and scales of blackest night ::=- A dragon stands be
    1. Re:Consultant or contractor? by rleibman · · Score: 2, Informative
      I'm not sure I am as clear as you are on the differences between a consultant and a contractor. I've always thought that the question is a false dichotomy.
      • Consulting speaks about the job you are doing: you are giving advice. Programming, database administration, graphic design are not consulting.
      • Contracting speaks about how you are charging and agreeing to do a job: under a contract. You may be a contract programmer, contract dba, contract graphic administrator and even a contract consultant.
    2. Re:Consultant or contractor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      Your absolutely right, except for this part..

      She works primarily

      Noone wants a womans opinion, unless they're trying to get laid.

    3. Re:Consultant or contractor? by Xerithane · · Score: 1

      A consultant takes a problem, develops a plan of action, and is entrusted with providing an opinion on anything that is detrimental. As a consultant, it's your JOB to bring it up-- But if they say "We know, but we just want it done this way", well that's then your job.

      Amen! So many people fail to understand the difference between a consultant and a contractor. Consultants create, design, plan, and can have teams under them. Contractors have specs, and build according to the specifications, and if they manage people, it tends to be people from the same firm.

      Consultants should query poor decisions, but in the end, the person who pays is always right. I was faced with that same scenario at my current client (I'm a consultant) where they wanted something and I strongly advised against it. They put their foot down, and I did it, then they bitched because the end result was shit.

      What do I get out of it? 6 more months doing it right :)

      --
      Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
    4. Re:Consultant or contractor? by Fnkmaster · · Score: 1
      Yup, this basically lays it out. If you are hired as a consultant, you are certainly obliged to tell your client when you think they are doing something wrong, or constraining a problem in a way that is not to their benefit. Of course, the question of "how hard do you push it" seems silly to me - you push it as hard as you can without endangering your source of income or your relationships with the people who make the decisions about whether to pay you. It's a job, like any other, you are providing expertise in solving a problem, but in the end, if the client doesn't want to take your advice, you have two choices. One, leave the project, default on your contract, risk lawsuit and get no money. Or two, make the best of it, note (and document) that you disagree with a decision, and move on to making the rest of the project happen.


      In the end, you have to accept that your advice won't always be taken, and projects you are involved in may die due to internal mismanagement, regardless of the quality of your work on them. It's happened to me before, but I believe I kept my moral integrity through the whole situation, and managed to walk away with a lot of cash. What more is there to it?

    5. Re:Consultant or contractor? by B3ryllium · · Score: 1

      Well then - you must be a woman, because I surely don't want your opinion.

    6. Re:Consultant or contractor? by MrMickS · · Score: 1
      The difference between a consultant and a contractor is just exactly that which you mention.

      Yeah, a consultant will do what is being paid for and lies within the project scope a contractor will provide the necessary information to get the job done. Oh you meant it the other way around :).

      I primarly work as a contractor doing Unix System Admin. However I've always been an opinionated SOB so if I see something being done that I think is wrong/stupid/going to cost in the long term I'll tell people. This is regardless of how much I'm being paid.

      The reaction I usually get to the above approach is positive and leads to contract extensions, rate rises and future work (I'm currently doing some consultancy for a company that I was originally employed on a two week contract for and stayed for 10 months). The point being that if it's an opinion it's not going to do you any harm to mention that you think that a mistake is being made and why you think that. If they take no notice or tell you that it's not your problem that's their lookout. If however they take notice and what you tell them provides real benefit you already have a step up for future work. Imagine if they implement something and then they get to know that you could have told them they were doing it wrong. Chance of future business - 0.

      BTW. I've never accepted an extension from company that told me to keep my opinions to myself. They have been offered though.

      --
      You may think me a tired, old, cynic. I'd have to disagree about the tired bit.
    7. Re:Consultant or contractor? by Ian+Bicking · · Score: 1
      Indeed. I often do work that isn't "contract" work, because I'm just doing it hourly without fixed goals and whatnot, but I'm just doing work. I'm not an employee because I'm working for multiple people, have some flexibilty, etc., but it's work and I'm not advising.

      But for the most part I do "consulting", because people hire me because I know how to do something they don't. If I know something they don't, then I obviously have to give them advice. It's often unsolicited, because I'm informing them of problems and opportunities they would not foresee. Am I suddenly a consultant? I guess, but I don't quick change into a suit, and I don't differentiate my roles.

      And why would I? When I work for people I try to be helpful, both in the getting-shit-done sense and the figuring-out-what-shit-needs-doing sense. I don't need to label that. They usually don't try to label me.

    8. Re:Consultant or contractor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But not so extensively in the last year or so, eh Griffon?

  16. a simple analogy by jptwo · · Score: 1

    contract programmer : starbucks barista ::
    contractor : sommelier

    sometimes the customer asks you for a recommendation, if you're a sommelier; in either case, bring 'em whatever drink they want.

  17. They know not what they do... by dot2dot · · Score: 5, Informative

    This happens regularly to me.

    My general coping methodology is to identify my concerns (expressed in terms of business consequences) but ultimately, I will defer to the legitimate authority of the client who is retaining us and cope as well as I can.

    There is always the possibility that:

    (a) You could be wrong
    (b) Your client's position is formed on the basis of additional information you don't have to hand.

    On the other hand, that doesn't mean you shouldn't keep some sort of mutually visible (and emotively neutral!) audit trail of your concerns as a CYA mechanism :-)

  18. Who's hiring? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hey - we forgot to ask - where are these jobs? Right about now, being an employed yes-man sounds nice...

  19. Of Course You Are Obligated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    being a consultant or not has no relevance as to whether you should "do the right thing", nor does how much you're getting paid.

    if you see a problem, something that is not in the best interests of the client, you should state your case, as clearly as possible, and then let the client make the call.

    it's consultants that don't say anything that contribute to the overall negative reputation that consultants have (that and PricewaterhouseCooper pulling Philosophy majors directly out of college and billing them out as software development "consulants" at $185 per hour)

  20. Yes Men by MrLint · · Score: 1

    The sad state of affairs is that in a not insignificant number of cases consultants are meant to be yes men to the manager that hired them. In some cases the 'consultants' are just salesmen come in to reinforce some already decided business plan.

    In an idea world a consultant woudl be broughtin to actually consult and provide information and reccomendations. The fact that the people hiring you don't want to listen to your reccomendation kind of point to the fact that they want to pay someoen from the 'outside' to agree with them so they can get heir agenda rammed through.

    Its really a lose-lose situation. Only think I can suggest is to make sureyour contract says that you get paid regardless if they like the report or not. Because if they dont, they'll find some other consulting firm that will give them one they like.

  21. you call that simple? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    chirst, what kindof latte swilling hippie are you... what the fuck is a sommelier?!??!

    1. Re:you call that simple? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Google says it has something to do with wine. It's probably that gay frenchman who lets you taste some before you take the whole bottle in one of those 3l33t restaurants.

    2. Re:you call that simple? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The head wine waiter. A character immortalised in the wonderful story of the college student who takes his sweetheart to a five-star restaurant for their anniversary, and asks the maitre'd to send over the 'samurai'. The sommelier walks over a moment later, and our hapless diner asks him 'Excuse me, are you the samurai?'
      To which the sommelier replies without missing a beat, 'Some people call me that, sir, but you may call me the wine waiter.'

    3. Re:you call that simple? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, the old days... Where do you find service like that nowadays? Not in Amsterdam I tell you!

  22. Never know 'til you try... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    At least you have to try and do your job, which is to make good decisions for the company (and hence you). From there it all depends on their response.

    Where I'm working now, I was presumably brought on board to "reign in the process" and actually introduce some hint of software engineering to the sheer chaos that was/is our development process.

    With images of bringing my past experience (well-regimented development cycles, CASE tools, etc.) I charged ahead. Only to discover very early on that what they WANTED was all the speed of seat-of-the-pants no-process chaos, with all the reliability and stability of a proper S.E. environment.

    Yep, you can envision the outcome. It's been over two years now and I essentially gave up. I did manage to bring a few actual software engineers on board (our other developers are non-CS majors). I'd say we've gone from SEI Level 0 to Level 0.5.

    But they pay me and treat me well. In this market you can't cherry-pick your jobs. The chaos drives me insane, but being able to pay the mortgage has its definite benefits.

    Though I do dream of a place where requirements don't change daily and control-/data-flow analysis roams free and strong....

    1. Re:Never know 'til you try... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you guys still don't have any idea when you'll be releasing Duke Nukem Forever then, right?

    2. Re:Never know 'til you try... by tychoS · · Score: 1

      Ahh another person to see tham the CMM scale ought to have a level below 1 =:-[

      CMM level 0: The manic self-destructive level

      0)Self-destructive. There are informally defined but keenly and thorougherly enforced processes in place that ensures that project succes never happens, no matter the talent and energy employed by a group or an individual.

      In the definition for CMM Level 1 it is said that "... and success depends on individual effort and heroics." At CMM level 0 succes is an impossibility even for a lone struggling hero. It is really sad to vitness the social mechanisms at work in such an organisation.

      At the worst such organisation I have experienced myself, there were two main problems. Severe political problems with the rest of the company and the major customers, and the department management procedures.

      There were 2-3 levels of management within a 15-20 people software architecture and design department with the CTO at the top. The CTO was a bright former ace programmer with a CS masters degree. Due to his intelligence and experience he could make fast technical decisions that were correct 70% of the time and relied on making such decisions to cut down on the time he spent on project related decisions in order to free up time for political battles with the rest of the company and just to show off of course.

      The lower level managers imitiated him. Not his intelligence, knowledge and experience of course, rather they imitiated him by making decisions just as fast as he did and with as little effort spent studying the matter at hand before making the decisions. They also imitiated the CTO's tendency to fiercly stand by his decisions when they were proven wrong.

      It did not help that two out of three of the non managers in the department had a strong tendency towards not planning further ahead than to the bottom of the editor window, and considered themself so well qualified that they did not have to read books or othervise learn how to make software properly. Most of them had either EE engineering or CS masters degrees and 10+ years software industry experience BTW.

    3. Re:Never know 'til you try... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So still someone is in love with good old waterfall. Why not stick to the 4th commandment of Agile Manifesto (www.agilemanifesto.org): "Responding to change over following a plan". Why insist on perfect planning when we are living in a still faster changing world? The customer learns (sometimes) and we learn. Face it: resistance is futile, all your base are belong to us.

      The 1st commandment is also relevant here: "Individuals and interactions over processes and tools". The top-down approach from Information Engineering har failed so loudly that I'm impressed that you haven't heard the noise.

  23. CYA goes both ways... by edashofy · · Score: 1

    CYA goes both ways. If you recommend a course of action different than the one they're suggesting, and it fails, you will likely be held responsible. So the question is:

    Are you getting paid to stop the company from making bad decisions?

    If not, keep yer yap shut. If you will NOT be held liable for not stopping the company from doing something stupid, then there is no incentive to do so, and it may get you in trouble if you turn out to be wrong in the end.

    1. Re:CYA goes both ways... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      you're way of dealing with it is cowardly, and lacks professional courtesy.
      I don't mean that as flamebait, but it is correct. If you want to be a yes man stooge, don't contract.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:CYA goes both ways... by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      If you don't know what you're doing, why are you in the consulting field? You shouldn't recommend anything unless you're sure of it, but not knowing anything and claiming to be a consultant is why people get upset at technicial people.

  24. Depends on your role by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you're hired as cheap labor or as [basically] a temp -- i.e. labor replacement, they may not want to hear your ideas. If you were hired for your skills and insight, you owe it to them (and yourself) to at least try to help them see the light. Preferably in a documentable form (CYA), depending on the client.

    And always start with cost comparison, then approperateness of the solution. And always get your views out there early -- the beginning of a trend is much easier to change than an established wave.

  25. My $.03 by uptownguy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    if a client is paying cheaply...they deserve the minimum information and just get what they ask for...If a client pays well or tips well or has been a long time repeat client, they deserve that extra time taken to show which judgement would be best and why

    Nice work ethic there, Sparky! Nothing like doing a good job for the sake of doing a good job. No sir-e! Show me the money!

    Tip: You should go into medicine. There's tons of money to be made off of pesky poor people and, hell, since they aren't paying well you can just throw a bottle of asprin at them and save your best work for people who are worthy (rich).

    Please. You are hired to do a job. When you were brought on, if you had a problem with the rate, you could have said something. Hell, you could still say something. That's called negotiation. But it isn't blackmail. "Oh, I'll only work hard if you keep meeting my demands." Show some class. Show some self-respect. Demonstrate you have a moral sense of right and wrong and you aren't just a high tech whore...

    --


    I would have to say that explosives are the most abused technology in all of history.
    1. Re:My $.03 by ross.w · · Score: 4, Interesting

      One of the biggest problems for any consultant on projects is "scope creep". A good project manager will ensure that the client gets all that he has paid for, and no more. If the fee wasn't enough - too bad. The consuitant loses. If it was accurate or generous, he makes some money.

      What the original poster is describing is the "extra mile" above and beyond the agreed scope. Consultants who do this for free too much go broke.

      Sometimes though, if the fee was generous and the client is a regular, it's worth it to keep their business.

      We aren't talking about saving the world or doing good deeds here. we are talking about business.

      The labourer is due his hire.

      --
      If my call is important, why am I talking to a recording?
    2. Re:My $.03 by Hays · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Show some class. Show some self-respect. You don't seem to understand how consulting works.

    3. Re:My $.03 by trmj · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So what you are telling me is that you, when taking a consulting job for three different clients, will spend that same amount of time explaining things to:
      Client #1: A new upstart company whose owner wants a network put in, but wants to know what the best way to do it is and why. Pays $750.
      Client #2: An established company whose owner routinely gets advice from his/her close friends and family, and wants you to use FormMail for requests on their website, even though there are hundreds of better applications and simple 10 lines of PHP will do it better and faster. Pays $2300.
      Client #3: A large corporation who has hired you as a temporary drone to do some tech work for their latest sattellite office along with the other temps. They already have three others that work perfectly fine with their 10Mbps networks and ISDN lines, even though there are DSL and Cable lines running to the building that cost about the same price. Pays $800.

      These aren't hypothetical situations, these are real things that happen to real consultants. I am showing class to those who deserve and ask for it. If somebody doesn't care, then don't waste your breathe. If somebody is paying for a job and a little bit of background information, that's what they get.

      I never said I was altruistic. Those people only get far when working for others that abuse their abilities. I do show self-respect though, and the first way I do that is by knowing how much my time is worth.

      --
      Work sucked, until it became unemployment, when it became slightly more tolerable. -Tet
    4. Re:My $.03 by bmj · · Score: 3, Insightful

      One of the biggest problems for any consultant on projects is "scope creep". A good project manager will ensure that the client gets all that he has paid for, and no more. If the fee wasn't enough - too bad. The consuitant loses. If it was accurate or generous, he makes some money.

      What the original poster is describing is the "extra mile" above and beyond the agreed scope. Consultants who do this for free too much go broke.

      Well, yes and no. If you estimated the project correctly, you should be able to go back to your client and point out what they were going to pay for. You don't have to shove the contract in their face, but explain the situation and how long it might take to do the extra work. If they tell you to pound salt, then you've at least got your contract and project scope on your side.

      A consultant should be willing to go that extra mile, but at a cost. But that's different than the parent comment, which had a much more arrogant ring to it..."I'm not doing anything more than what's outlined in the contract"....be a good person by trying to work out the situation with the client. If they aren't a total jerk, you'll probably make out in the long run, with both a better payoff from the current job, and a good impression for future work.

      --
      Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must be silent. --Ludwig Wittgenstein
    5. Re:My $.03 by the+uNF+cola · · Score: 1

      This will sound bitter, but it's the truth.

      Morals and ethics dont' get you anywhere in business. Honestly. To give a hard-hit company money, in the case of Microsoft and Apple, wasn't an ethical thing. It ws in Microsoft's best benefit to do so, either because it was cooperating or going against them.

      Do you really believe that we are in this America-Iraq war just because we care about the people? We are there for various reasons, arguable which are the real ones. Reasons such as if Sadam becomes powerful, he can be a threat to us in the very long run. He can affect oil prices if he gets too powerful. People will think ill of us if we didn't do something. That would inadvertently affect the economy.. which sucks all the same.

      Little ol' me consults for MS. If I do the required 40 hours instead of the required 80 hours a week because enough people aren't staff'd, who's problem is that? Depends if you are friends with the boss of the company or not, eh? Sometimes, going the extra mile means suffering yourself. Sometimes, a little suffering is ok. It keeps you good with the employer. A little too much, and you become a whipping boy.

      --

      --
      "I'm not bright. Big words confuse me. But Wanda loves me and that should be enough for you." - Cosmo

    6. Re:My $.03 by batura · · Score: 1

      Wow, that comment was beautifully idealistic. The problem is that the real world, these ideals fall flat in front of real facts. Fact: if it isn't a big job, then why make it one? You aren't going to get any more money and you might as well move on to other projects. Isn't it the person's responsibility who hired you to know what's going on? You are a contract programmer, not a project manager. Sure suggestions might help, but until you change jobs, you're sent there to do as your told. Your comments might not be well recieved or appreciated and eventually prevent you from getting work in the future. Remember, managers hire people that make them look good. You have to tell them thier wrong about something, you have to be careful; you're playing with fire.

    7. Re:My $.03 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As contractors, we are whores. We work through pimps (agents) for a neverending collection of headless chicken.
      I - for one - have very little regards for the morons who are working in or leading the large companies - I just want to make enough money so that I can move back to africa and not have to deal with the armies of morons that seem to inhabit the corporate landscape. This means underpromising and overdelivering so that the client feels happy. This has nothing to do with what is technically right. You just have to face facts - clients are incompetent (mostly). There is usually no point in fighting it as this makes incompetent people unhappy (and thus making them reluctant to pay you). Let them be stupid/ignorant as long as they pay you good money.
      5 more years - then Im home free.

      Ja Baas - show me the money!

    8. Re:My $.03 by pVoid · · Score: 1
      Amen.

      As saint and altruistic as the slashdot crowd might pretend to be, there's this thing called reality. I've seen this thing, called reality, from two directions in my career: first, as a consultant, I tore my feathers out trying to explain to my boss why a certain way of doing things would be better (whether I succeeded or not is moot). Second, I've watched bosses hire 'consultants' just so they can shut their own programming team up by saying "you see, even the consultant says it's good this way"...

      The sad reality of the fact is that some people hire consultants simply to bring in a voice of authority into an argument - and so sometimes, they basically want you to whore out your opinion in exchange for money.

      So if you find your job is at risk because of this, you might as well be a whore... because all that opinonated boss has to do is drive down "IT crack alley" and pick up another whore.

      Sad but true.

      Now, if you know you're not a whore, but a lover... you might consider discussing your options over a nice candle light diner.

    9. Re:My $.03 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow I find it amazing that you can really say this. As I work for one of the top 5 IT consulting companies in the nation, I need to say that you have very, very little idea of consulting cost-structuring and even less morals. I pray that you don't actually work for my company.

    10. Re:My $.03 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      fortunately/unfortunately "sparky's" attitude is rampant out there. It makes it really easy for guys like me who do the same job for the "cheap" job and the paying really really good client.

      I dont care if you are paying me $20.00 an hour or $200.00 and hour I'm going to do my best and that really shows to clients.

      It shows so well, I take clients away from guys like "sparky" every day.

      I love the arsehole primadonnas that dont do a great job for the poor companies/non-profits.. I get those companies in the end stolen fair and square from that consultant.

    11. Re:My $.03 by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 1

      Client #1: A new upstart company whose owner wants a network put in, but wants to know what the best way to do it is and why. Pays $750.

      Wouldn't take the assignment. The fee isn't enough to cover the amount of work involved.

      I CERTAINLY wouldn't take the job but just do it half-assed because I wasn't getting paid what I deserved.

      Client #2: An established company whose owner routinely gets advice from his/her close friends and family, and wants you to use FormMail for requests on their website, even though there are hundreds of better applications and simple 10 lines of PHP will do it better and faster. Pays $2300.

      I'd take a reputable mailer program and create a wrapper for it that uses formmail syntax. Everybody's happy.

      Client #3: A large corporation who has hired you as a temporary drone to do some tech work for their latest sattellite office along with the other temps. They already have three others that work perfectly fine with their 10Mbps networks and ISDN lines, even though there are DSL and Cable lines running to the building that cost about the same price. Pays $800.

      I'm not sure I understand the scenario you're laying out here, but if they already have an IDSN architecture that works for their needs, I wouldn't recommend upgrading to DSL or Cable service just because it's more cost-effective. Planning and rolling it out would take time and effort, and could negatively impact their business if not done just right.

  26. Always by mao+che+minh · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I always offer helpful information as a consultant, especially information that will prevent my employer from losing money (or stumbling into some other prediciment that is unhealthy for his or her business). Regardless of whether the job is going to take me one day or thirty, when I am in a consultant role I feel that it is my duty to actually consult, which involves the application of your desired knowledge and skills, as well as your input and advice (which is derived from your knowledge). I never just take the money and do whatever I am asked regardless of the consequences.

    I hardly ever do consultant involving coding unless it's something simple, like creating a web based front end for database entry or something. But when I am providing these types of solutions I always suggest FOSS. Alot of small busineses get duped into thinking that they need to go with Win2k, IIS, and either Access or MS-SQL. I always suggest Linux, Apache, and MySQL - and not one of them (OK, there was only two, but still) decided to waste over $1,500-$4,500 on the MS bundle (If they choose SQL it adds quite a hefty chunk of change onto the total).

    1. Re:Always by The+Bungi · · Score: 1
      decided to waste over $1,500-$4,500 on the MS bundle

      "Waste" is a very subjective term, especially if your POV happens to be zealot-ish in nature.

    2. Re:Always by mao+che+minh · · Score: 1

      I meant "waste" in respect to what they needed. The two clients that I am speaking of merely required a little database that could be accessed through a web interface (and future web based tools), the interface itself, a few custom scripts for internal stuff, and a file/print services. All business people ever hear about (until very recently) is MS solutions. And in this case, spending money on the MS OS and database software would have just been wasteful.

    3. Re:Always by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      Dick Tracey walked from the computer and said, with scorn on his voice, "The irony is so thick I can cut it with a knife."

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    4. Re:Always by arkanes · · Score: 1

      I've beem facing massive resistance to bringing open source (especially linux) to our company, not because of zealotry per se, although that is there, but because we don't have anyone skilled in it onboard. The total cost of switching would be considerable.

  27. I have a policy with my team... by Anthony+Boyd · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...and it works like this: speak up freely anytime a new decision bothers you. After you've made your case, if things don't change, reconsider your position. If you're still firm, revisit the issue later, and make a better case. If things don't change, grit your teeth and build to spec.

    I figure this gives the team some checks & balances where input can come from both sides, and both sides have a chance to reconsider and restate the issues if need be. But it doesn't drag things out too much -- after two discussions, we're moving on, regardless of the happy-level. The major challenge here has been upper management, only because they haven't done the math. They always want to blame the developer or contractor, and insist that if management made a bad decision, it was up to the people working on the project to raise a stink, multiple times if need be. This is of course untenable, because it implies that a project could drag out indefinitely, as people revisit, re-revisit, and re-re-revisit an issue. I find my objection/revisit rule rule to be good, but it has to be backed by something only I am willing to do right now: take the blame when I make a crappy decision and refuse to listen to input.

  28. MOD UP PARENT Re:my $0.02 by kwerle · · Score: 4, Informative

    You were hired to do a job. You took the job and they pay you. You should ALWAYS tell the client if something is wrong. Not argue, mind you - just inform. If they want to know why, you tell them. If they don't, you don't.

    If they are a "good client", you might want to argue the point more without their asking for it.

  29. Experiences from scandinavian perspective by jim_az · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm assuming the poster is in the US. I'm from Sweden myself, and I'm currently working in USA (since 6 years). I can clearly see a big cultural difference here. In Sweden (at least in the companies I've been working for), you're always assumed to question whatever management ask you to do, regardless of your position in the company. They are always grateful if you find a better solution and count on you to express any doubts or questions regarding the proposed task.
    While I've been in the US, I've been asking questions in the same way and this sometimes lead to real frustration. People don't want to be told that they might be wrong. The response is typically, "well, it's nice of you to express your opinion, but this is how we do it" without even be willing to discuss the matter.
    This is just my experience and hopefully not typical in the US workplace.

    Jim in Az

    1. Re:Experiences from scandinavian perspective by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think I've ever encountered a Swede named Jim before.

    2. Re:Experiences from scandinavian perspective by geekoid · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Hot babes, AND reasonable management attitudes, I'm moving to sweden.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:Experiences from scandinavian perspective by alch · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm a canadian who worked for a swedish company in the US. Conflicts between the US and Swedish management were amazing ...

      US : "The customer wants this feature in the product"
      SW : "We shall discuss starting a pre-study then"
      US : "When when that be ?"
      SW : "We will get back to you next week"
      US : "So next week we will know if our feature will be in the product ?"
      SW : "Next week we will know when we can get together to discuss starting a pre-study on that feature"

      Of course the rest of the conversation cannot be repeated ...

      Sweden had a very inclusive management style which was great, but slow - no single point of blame. The US had a very individualistic aproach, which was empowering and exciting and quick - and you knew who to fire !!

    4. Re:Experiences from scandinavian perspective by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I'm a Canadian who did software development in Stockholm back in the 1980's, and did a lot of motorcycle touring as well when I was there.

      My experience was similar to those expressed by the other posters. It was not a perfect system, in part because the tax shelter for research and development encouraged a rather relaxed attitude toward project management, but at the same time people in the Swedish industry seem to avoid a lot of the posturing and domination games that we see so often here in North America.

      To my mind, another significant advantage that Sweden has is in the area of labor relations. The legislation is pretty straightforward, and all parties seem to be in general agreement with it. Thus, not much time is wasted in power struggles between capital and labor.

      I think that both these factors contribute to the atmosphere of collegiality that other posters have described. It favors the consultative process, and probably lends some respect for the contributions which consulting professionals can make. On the downside, I found Swedish culture to be rather insular on the whole, which I expect would be a challenge for the social networking part of the consulting business.

      One final comment on culture. Living in Sweden for a couple of years, I came to understand that from that distant perspective, Canada and the States are really not easy to tell apart. That was really weird, guys. I wasn't comfortable with that at all!

    5. Re:Experiences from scandinavian perspective by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Sweden, as you already know, we know that nobody is always right. Infact, we expect everyone to do something wrong, which leads to slow decission making.
      In the U.S. everybody wants to be the one who's always right, thus, if they have higher rank, they ARE always right.

      For things that really needs high quality, the Swedish way is supperior, for the quick and dirty, the U.S. way is probably always the preferable way.

      It simply reflects the society at large, the different view on what is important in life.

    6. Re:Experiences from scandinavian perspective by defile · · Score: 1

      Most Americans grow up glued to the TV, and have become suprisingly anti-social in the process. TV has done a job of distorting one's perception of what acceptable social intercourse is.



      As such, if they speak to someone who doesn't immediately agree with them, they believe they are being insulted. Especially if you're using a heavy european accent (which Americans have been conditioned to see as a condescending, obnoxious tone -- just look at all of the French jokes). If you're a subordinate, they think you are challenging their authority.



      Try not to work with idiots. Working in a large city helps since they typically encourage more social interaction between its inhabitants. ;)

    7. Re:Experiences from scandinavian perspective by Error27 · · Score: 1

      >Canada and the States are really not easy to tell apart.

      That's easy. Canada is on top and the US is on the bottom.

  30. John, we've decided... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As you know, John, the company is in hard financial times. And as you may not know since you are a contractor and you don't rate this sort of next-to-pointless perk, the company gives away hams at the holiday times. We can't afford that this year John. And we can't afford to take the morale hit either.

    John, we've decided to use consultants as hams."

    Time to speak up!

  31. all consultants have to deal with this problem.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ..whether to make money or tell the client that
    are wasting their resources..

    it all depends on how good your intelligence is.
    if they are checking with other consultants that
    might be competent then you need to tell them the truth.

    Otherwise: Profit!

  32. Its about their direction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    My belief is that a consultant should do two things when looking at a client's needs.
    You analyse where they are and then where they want to be. The bit in the middle is what you're hired to do.

    If doing a proper job you should have a good idea of the overall goal of the project. Not just upgrading xxx, but the reasons why your upgrading it. It is this that makes you truly see if they are making a poor decision or not. It also helps you immensely in putting in the right solution.

    You may have issues with their direction, and this is I believe what your getting at. Your treading a fine line as unless you've been brought in to consult on the direction then people are going to be hurt.

    Sometimes you need to go up where the air is thin and lay out your case for A vs B and why you believe B is a better solution / strategy. At worst you can get someone to have a quick look and see if you have a point; if they don't even offer you this, then its not worth your time.

  33. don't worry be happy! by Sophrosyne · · Score: 1

    A good consultant shouldn't have to ask questions, a good consultant should provide answers.
    There is no way that just one solution fits one particular problem, and it should be expected that you offer all valid alternative ideas before they even come to a conclusion.
    Each company has its own prerogatives- and everyone (including management) has reasoning behind their decisions.
    Consultants need to remember that their job isn't preaching personal beliefs- and sometimes the best solution isn't the most glamorous.
    Basically there is more than one way to skin a cat, and often each company has to make that final decision with what they could handle financially and handle in the long term.
    My suggestion really is to be more aggressive presenting possible ways to go around things way before they can even think of their best solution, just don't pollute the workplace with advocacy (whether that Mac, Linux....or Windows...) - There is no reason to get emotional; yes, the manager you're dealing with might seem like a total moron-- but I'm sure he/she has good reasons for what he/she does...
    If in fact the management are a bunch of total morons, the company will eventually go out of business--so I guess unless you invest in the company... don't worry be happy!

    1. Re:don't worry be happy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ACK! Managers posting incoherent babble!

  34. Dosen't sound like consulting to me by LinuxGeek · · Score: 1

    Everytime I have been in a consulting role, the decision making process included me in it. There was no need to come back and tell me to just do something new. I would have gone back to the decision makers to ensure we were still on the same page and proceed. If a consultant is hired for their expertise, this is how events unfold. If they are hired to be a scapegoat, then I can see your scenario happening. Sounds like a nightmare.

    --

    Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see. - Mark Twain
  35. Communication Skills by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am currently taking a /. break while working on my resume. The paragraph, I just added, deals with communication skills. Today, it is vitaly important that software developers are able to explain complex concepts to both other programmers and non programmers. Knowledge and experties must be shared. As a consultant, one needs to educate the managment. After that, it is ultimatly up to that managment to make the descision. Of course part of the problem one faces these days is the vast amount of missinformation being spread by Microsoft propagandists who have access to the highest levels of managment. That means that one needs to be well prepared and needs to have a good understanding of why the managment wants to do what they ask. Another skill that is often overlooked, is the ability to research and evaluate.

  36. Play by ear. by matastas · · Score: 1

    What a massively subjective question. Guess the good ones already are.

    I just got off my first contracting gig (about 100 days), which ended with being hired full-time. It's a tech. marketing position, and so might be a little different that some others (contrary to popular belief, good product managers are encouraged to question the status quo).

    As I hinted, I was encouraged to question the status quo. It continues even during my full-time employment. And I've worked in places where questioning the status quo was simply lip-service. Doing so would get you fired.

    Marketing, while demonized in a lot of tech circles, is some great experience for firefighting and examining company procedures for efficiency. For me, it's boiled down to a few things:

    -Company culture. Nimble and hungry, or fat cat? This is pretty obvious: the bigger boys tend to like things the way they are, and bucking that could get you in trouble.

    -Your boss. Is he a trend-setter, aggressive, or is he Office Space material? This has serious impact on whether or not you're seen as a contributor or a threat.

    -Relationship with peers. I'm good at developing relationships, both friendly and working, and it's a necessity even moreso for contractors. You might already have a bit of negative attention your way, and making in-roads with other folks not only gets you accepted, it makes your ideas a lot more palatable. It's 'oh, yeah, Bob suggested it,' not 'that fscking contractor wants to change another thing...'

    This is in addition to a thorough evaluation of what you want to change. Make sure it's effective, efficient, and has an impact on the bottom line. Philosophical debates are great, but they need to come with quantifiable results, or else it's one person's opinion against another.

    I hate to ramble and give nothing more than 'feel it out,' but that's my experience. Start by taking inches, and proving yourself along the way, and when you reach for that mile, you'll find a lot less of a fight. Good luck.

  37. Comment on decisions... by malachid69 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You should always let them know if they are making a bad decision. They may not always take your recommendation, and may even get to the point where they EXPECT you to argue (like they did with me) -- but otherwise you are just a seat filler.

    You are hired for your technical expertise. If they say, "It must be done like this", then I have no problem speaking up with a "that will be extremely slow".

    But here's the key: Be prepared to provide an alternative. If you critisize, but don't provide a solution, they may just see your comment as non-productive. However, if you get in the habit of providing better solutions, they may start asking you to find a solution to begin with.

    Malachi

    --
    http://www.google.com/profiles/malachid
    1. Re:Comment on decisions... by msimm · · Score: 1

      Not much more to say there.

      However, if you get in the habit of providing better solutions, they may start asking you to find a solution to begin with.

      Um, yep. Just make sure you do what they want in the end and you cover both sides (made a suggestion that might have helped and complied with the clients wishes, sounds like a callback!).

      --
      Quack, quack.
  38. Ack...I live this day to day. by da3dAlus · · Score: 1

    I know my boss reads Slashdot, but he also knows what kind of a client I'm working with on my current project. It's not so much a matter or "when to question", but "when to make sure you're not the one that gets the blame". I'm currently working with a client that has VERY poor project management skills, and we daily poke fun at the entire situation. However, we only do it in jest, as we know they're the ones paying the bills. Sometimes, the client's decision is a poor one, and we try to suggest alternate means, but the same advise rings true: "the customer is always right", "don't rock the boat", and "be quiet and look pretty". What you really have to do is document that you tried your best to better the situation, without flat out telling the client they're a friggin moron. Right now, I know I have upcomming medical expenses, a wedding/honeymoon to do, and a possible new car expense. The last thing I want is to get fired for being "insubordinate", even though I don't think such a thing would really happen. I know my opinion is valued within the company, but outside of that, it's hard to deal with a stubborn client.

    Basically, I know I'm just a code monkey working on a client's website, so it's not a life-threatening thing if the client makes a bad decision. However, I have enough morals that if such a situation did arise, I would not hesitate to open my mouth. But until then, I know that this is just a temporary contract, and it's not like I'm working for this client forever. I think that's something that consultants should remember. It's really helped me these past months.

    --

    Sometimes I doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion.
    1. Re:Ack...I live this day to day. by Wiener · · Score: 1
      I know I have upcomming medical expenses, a wedding/honeymoon to do, and a possible new car expense.

      Speaking from experience, I suggest you avoid the new car if at all possible. My new wife and I were in a similar situation, we bought the new car, and then lo and behold, a bundle of joy appeared soon thereafter.

      Avoid the car if you can...kids are so much more worthwhile (and fun too) ;)

    2. Re:Ack...I live this day to day. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From the perspective of operating a consulting business, a good client is the kind that pays on time. I say this because some don't, and that has to be an even worse experience than dealing with the ones who merely don't know how to contribute to the success of their own project. Though you might expect there to be some correlation between the two.

      As a consultant, you're really trying to help the client, and of course it's good business to be understood as doing so. As you say, do your best and document it. It can't hurt, it makes you feel good about your efforts, and you never know who might ultimately read that document. Maybe it will help after all.

  39. You'd better know by TheSHAD0W · · Score: 3, Funny

    You've gotta know when to question.
    Know when to keep still.
    Know when to walk away.
    And know when to run...

    You'd better count your money
    With each and every paystub
    Cuz you'll have no chance to count it
    When the merger's done.

  40. This is the distinction... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you do not feel free to express your opinion that a customer may be heading down the wrong path then I would argue that you are not truly a "Consultant". Rather you are a "Contractor".

    A consultant is hired to help a company make proper desisions as well as to do some of the work. A contractor does what the customer tells him/her to do.

  41. This is dissapointing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If a consultant is doing their job primarily for the money - as is suggested by most of these posts - their integrity is going to be called and their not going to last long.

    Obviously, there will be times when what the client needs and what they ask for are two different things - and sometimes opposed. People talk about CYA - at the end of the day the people making the decisions are the ones spending the money. As such, they need to see your recommendations in terms of cost/benefit/risks. If you can't communicate the reasons for your recommendation in terms other than technical benefits then you can't really call yourself a consultant.

    If you do present it in terms, that those people spending money can understand, and they still choose to go the other way - you find a way to support that 'solution' and make it effective. Being open to other ideas and working as a team is part of being professional.

  42. What to say when asked to the wrong thing by sarob · · Score: 1

    Very simply say "I believe the correct course of action is X, but if you want me to do Y; I will." We are hired to provide advice based on our experience and skill set, but also to do the bidding of the company who is paying us. Period.

    1. Re:What to say when asked to the wrong thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The consultant must ask 'do I just say "yes sir" and go to work, or do I try to explain things? If so, how hard do I push?' When should a good consultant question a decision, and how does the situation differ with contract programmers?"

      The contractor is supposed to follow a plan created by a more knowledgable person. So when you get on the job, ask to see the plan, and ask for the more knowledgable person. If there is no plan, and if *you* are the most knowledgable person, then you are a consultant.

    2. Re:What to say when asked to the wrong thing by WetCat · · Score: 1

      Don't forget to put this decision and discussion in writing, that will allow you to have a material to shut them up later when they blame you.

  43. Simple by The+Bungi · · Score: 1
    Unlike Dilbertian employees, a consultant is hired to tell the truth, not coddle management with bogus opinions that do more harm than good.

    I've been in that situation many times and I've never been shy about it - if I think you're fucking up, and it's my job to tell you, I will. What you do with that information is entirely up to you, of course. At the end of the day, I get paid anyway (which is why I'm a consultant and not a Dilbertian employee).

  44. It also depends on the risks involved by rleibman · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Aside from the other very insightful comments here, I'd also judge wether to speak out based on the risks involved
    Is this a pacemaker or space shuttle? I'd probably speak out louder.
    Is this an "I'm on the web" website? I'd probably just mention my misgivings.

  45. i'm a righteous fuck by stevejsmith · · Score: 0, Troll
    I haven't owned a TV since I sold mine to pay the legal fines I accumulated after pirating microcrap winblowz software which were in violaction of the DMCASSHOLE. Oh, and I vote libertarian.

    1. Post comments in accordance with nothing
    2. ???
    3. Profit!!!
  46. It's a matter of questioning decisions. by OwnerOfWhinyCat · · Score: 1
    You are a "consultant." Though the word is used to cover a more broad range of services than "consultation." That service is still implied. For me the crux of the issue is to let them know:
    • I question everything, so it's nothing personal.
    • I know damned well what I'm talking about, or I'd keep my mouth shut.
    • Whatever way your internal folks want it is what we'll work to make happen. Since they have to stay here and support it.
    The best example of this came early in my career when I had a modest dozen programming languages under my belt and I was asked to extend a Customer Billing System for a wireless Telcom carrier. After getting all the specs. I asked the guy who would maintain it what language he thought would be best for the app. He said TCL/Expect. I'd never even heard of it, but it was going to be his baby, they were willing to pay for the extra time to have it written in a language other than C. So I bought the O'Reily book, learned Expect, and to my great suprise it was an excellent choice, and I was paid to learn Yet Another Cool Scripting Language.
  47. Depends on what they're paying you for. by perp · · Score: 1

    There's a syndrome I've heard called "buying a dog and then doing your own barking". If they're paying you for your expertise and then they ignore your recommendations, you have to wonder. Also, if the project crashes and burns due to bad project management decisions, how much damage will it do to you and your reputation?

    --
    There are two kinds of sysadmins: paranoids and losers. I'm both kinds.
  48. Not so easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Rather than give generalizations, let looks at real examples. In past contracts, my job was to provide expertise and explain the pros/cons of a particular set of technologies.

    Take for example .NET and Schema. The employer had a question about using namespaces and asked "Should we use namespaces?" My response was "yes, it provides a consistent way of resolving model conflicts and avoid collisions." Their response was, "what if some one doesn't want to define a complexType and would rather use element?" After some lengthy discussions, it was decided that namespaces wouldn't be used. 4 weeks later a design issue comes up and they ask "what happens if we want to provide a way for customers to extend our object model?" I politely mentioned that was one of the reasons I thought namespaces would be beneficial.

    Often the customer doesn't completely understand the technology and don't realize the short term decisions they're making has tremendous long term impact that's not in their best interest. Some times they end up seeing the flaw in their thinking and change their mind. Designing complex systems isn't simple, often the assumptions given to the architect and developers are wrong. If the architect makes decisions based on those bad requirements/assumptions, there's very little he can do after the system is built.

    Take SOAP for an example. If a company decides they want to go with web services across the board and believes it's the future, they are making a guess. If those assumptions are wrong and their customers are 10 years from being ready to adopt web services, the change in architecture could mean loosing their customers. there's a hell of a lot more going on than just "is it the right architecture." Part of a consultant's job is to understand the business model and ask intelligent questions. A consultant has to first understand the customer's needs and help improvement the requirements and use case. Once the requirements are well defined, making architectural decisions becomes much easier.

  49. the word "consultant" by intermodal · · Score: 1

    anyone whom they will call a consultant should consult. otherwise they should call you what you are, i.e. technician, programmer, etc. If you are going to be a consultant, dont just ask how high when they tell you to jump. That just makes you their bitch, not their consultant.

    --
    In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
  50. There is a word for this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Revengineering: The act of giving the client exactly what he asks for, despite your expertise.

    (sorry, not my original quote)

  51. "No" isn't an answer by AirLace · · Score: 1

    I worked in the City of London for two years as a consultant. It is a very abrasive environment. The attitude is pretty much, if you say "no" or "maybe" to any given project or demand, they will go and find someone else who can say "yes". Very often, the people giving the orders are far too conceited to debate technical issues. If you object to their analysis of the situation, you will be routed around. This is all very much why I left that line of work.

  52. Re:This is a test post, please do not read by Bubb+Rubb · · Score: 1, Funny

    damn, i read it. what should i do?

    please advise.


    woooo woooo!

  53. Naive Dumbass... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You must be one of those cheap fucking management types. Been there, done that with pricks like you.

    Want good help? better be ready to pay...

  54. Def. of consultant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Consultant = "If your not part of the solution then theres good money to be made in prolonging the problem."

    'Nuf said.

  55. Some advice from a consultant... by chunkwhite86 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    1. Don't "unsell" anything that your sales team has sold. It doesn't matter that they dont need that particular widget - don't tell them that.

    2. Make recomendations for how they could do things better. They will expect this. This is the difference between a consultant and a contractor.

    3. Don't make the customer feel like an idiot for having designed/implemented something in a less-than-perfect manner. Politely suggest the necessary changes and give them good reasons why they need said changes. And don't make the customer feel like an idiot.

    These 3 should get you started...

    --
    I'd rather be a conservative nutjob than a liberal with no nuts and no job.
    1. Re:Some advice from a consultant... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like good advice. I'll try to keep these points in mind.

      I fully see the value of 2 and 3, though your first point is perhaps in a different class: it may help you keep get future contracts, but only if nobody faults you for backing a bad sale.

      In any case, thanks for passing on the advice.

  56. Cash this for GOLD by robi2106 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Trackable info is GOLD. Take the following which happened to a guy I know at the same company I'm contracted to:

    Guy I know got fired from [US printer company], then hired back as a contract. When working the contract, a full time employee complained about the quality of his test matrix, so they scheduled meetings and re-wrote it. Both of them kept notes, and both emailed the other with their copy of the notes to make sure they had all the same info. She complained again, then they did the meetings, re-wrote the notes, etc etc. It went on like this for about 7 iterations:

    1)need more test cases
    -doubled # of test cases
    2)need test overviews seperated into different docs
    -seperated into 3 different .doc files
    3)need more test cases
    -added test cases to each .doc
    4)need fewer .docs
    -combined to 2 .docs
    5)too many test cases
    -reduced test cases in each .doc
    6)don't like formatting of .doc
    -used different fonts, spacing, etc
    7)too many test cases and docs
    -combined docs; reduced test cases
    8)[yelling] you are a terrible engineer (I kid you not)
    -take it up the butt because you can't talk that way to employees but they can to you.

    The result of this month of run-around that she gave the guy was that she didn't like him and wanted his project canceled and delayed (ie no work for months) so that a different contractor could be brought in to do the same job . . . one that would do the work just how she wanted it (YES MAN) but with out her actually doing the work.

    At meetings with the VP of the contract agency, and meetings with the [US printer company] bosses the guy presented 300+ pages of printouts including each iteration of the test spec, the notes from each meeting, and all emails between them (he auto logged all emails). The VPs concluded that the guy did an excelent job of fulfilling the job requirements, but that because she didn't like him his contract would be canceled. The contract firm VP admitted privately later that this is very common with [US printer company] and there is absolutely nothing that could be done about it. Since both bosses agreed, the guys record was not adversely affected, but he still can't work in her division ever again.

    When you offer your trained expert opinion to an idiot, expect nothing less that idiocy in return.

    Hopefully this isn't a common experience with other companies and other contract workers.

    robi

    1. Re:Cash this for GOLD by Slurpee · · Score: 1


      Trackable info is GOLD. Take the following which happened to a guy I know at the same company I'm contracted to...


      interesting story...and there is no doubt that trackable info is gold....but in your story surely it didn't make a difference. The guy still lost his position even though he could prove everything!

    2. Re:Cash this for GOLD by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      Yes, but he -didn't- lose his position in the consulting firm! It was her word over his, and his notes saved his ass from being out on the street. It's possible the contracting boss would have fired him to save face with the printer company, so as to retain integrity of the contract (or to attempt it at least).

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    3. Re:Cash this for GOLD by Slurpee · · Score: 1

      ahh...

      fair enough. I guess I was expecting his company to believe him, rather than the problem causing person.

    4. Re:Cash this for GOLD by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      I wish I lived in your ideal world. :)

      I'd almost always expect the employee getting trashed (at least in an industry that's as cutthroat as the tech industry currently is, where workers are in high supply and low demand). That is, unless it's a smaller firm where the boss and employees have tight relationships, or something like that.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    5. Re:Cash this for GOLD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, its not an uncommon situation. I have faced similar situations several times. The only way to neutralize her is by going into politics; exerting your time and energy to make her irrelevant in the eyes of management (instead of doing the job you were supposed to do). The problem is that I chose to be a contractor to get out of that sort of crap. I just pick up and leave - happy not having to work at a place where the stupid rule.

    6. Re:Cash this for GOLD by dubl-u · · Score: 1

      When you offer your trained expert opinion to an idiot, expect nothing less that idiocy in return.

      Many technical consultants don't realize that "technical" isn't the only word in their job description. The way I look at it, it's not just my job to give good advice, it's to do so in a way that they understand and follow.

      That's not to say your pal wasn't dealing with somebody certifiable. But I'd say only 30-40% of my brainpower when consulting goes into the technical stuff; the rest is spent on understanding and dealing with people, in all their falliable glory.

  57. Depends on who you are... by ocbwilg · · Score: 1

    If you are a consultant who happens to be the project manager, your job and reputation are on the line. You normally will have the ability to make the critical decisions in this position with a certain amount of oversight. If I know for a fact that the project will fail because of the decisions made at a level above me, then I personally think that I owe it to myself and my customer to a) make a clear, concise, and convincing case for the method that I most favor, and b) make the decision to leave if I'm being micromanaged from above into failure.

    Remember that you will be associated with whatever successes or failures that you participate in. In most situations like this you will be making an initial proposal for a solution to a customer, and if they choose your solution then you'll get the job. Otherwise it will go to someone else. In this case there should already be a certain level of synergy and trust between you and the customer, so cases like you describe would be an exception to the rule.

    Now there's the other side of the "consulting" coin, and that is more of a staff augmentation situation. Yes, the customer is still paying for your expertise, but they obviously are just brining you in for extra manpower on the project. In these cases, I think that it is also important to bring up any concerns that you have about potential problems (or things being done the wrong way), but do so professionally. Don't rip apart the project plan in a team meeting (unless that's what the meeting was scheduled for), but if offerred the opportunity then offer your opinion. Speak to the project manager/lead implementer one-on-one and express any misgivings. Alsways offer an alternative method/product/solution.

    My personal rule is to only bring it up once. If I disagree with a product or method, I'll pitch an alternative in the appropriate forum. If it is shot down then it's a dead subject as far as I'm concerned. Repeatedly bringing it up will only make you appear like a disgruntled employee or someone who is not a team player. Remember that in this situation you were brought in for your expertise, but mainly to be an additional labor resource. Work with the project plan as directed and do your best. If it turns out that you were right and the project is starting to sink, there's a good chance that the person you spoke with will start looking for an alternative solution, and you might come out looking like a hero.

    To summarize, your reaction is going to be largely influenced by the role that you are given. So long as you fulfill your role to the best of your ability you should be in decent shape.

  58. my answer by bluelan · · Score: 1
    The answer for a consultant is the same as the answer for an employee.

    • What's the chance that you're wrong?
    • What will the company lose if you're right and they don't follow your advice?
    • What will the company lose if you're wrong and they follow your advice?
    • Multiply and compare
      • probability of right * cost of being right if your advice is not followed.
      • probability of being wrong * cost of being wrong if your advice is followed.

    If the two numbers are close to equal, forget it. It's not worth fighting over. Of course, most costs aren't quantifiable, so take that whole mess, chuck it, and flip a coin. If it comes up head, fight until they fire you.

    --

    I used to be a narrator for bad mimes. (wright)

  59. Knowing when to ask... by djupedal · · Score: 1

    ...is like asking yourself if you think you're in love.

    If you need to ask, then it's all in your imagination.

    If you have doubts, then you're in the wrong place, at the wrong time, and you should excuse yourself on the grounds that you are simply not ready for the task at hand. Do everyone a favor, and run for the nearest exit.

  60. Every Time the Direction Changes by IBitOBear · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The answer is simple.

    Stratigic errors are invariably traced back to moments when the group/project changed direction. The small daily things are just that, small, they are dealt with and things carry on. Tactical mistakes on Tactical issues are just the day to day part.

    One of the most important pieces of information being bought by anybody employing anyone for any purpose is the employee's "list of known bad things."

    Pointers:

    0) TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for EVERY MISTAKE YOU MAKE. Don't make a bid deal over them, don't "fall on your sword" just say "my bad" and move on. Hell take the casual fall for others if necessary to get the repairs started. To the greatest extent, who is at fault is the last thing that matters once the mistake is out. Most people have already decided anyway and almost everybody almost always knows the exact truth before the showdown anyway. As long as enough was learned to prevent a repeat, the issue is over.

    1) Teling your boss "no" is your most sacroscant duty, but it should be approached the way you would tell him his fly is down (or there is toilet paper hanging out of her skirt band.) That is TACT and URGENCY are at war. A timly rescue of face in an emergency is more important than tact and will be remembered positively; but in the absence of extreme pressure, being less-than-tactful will be remembered negatively.

    2) Know the difference between the stratigic and the tactical, NEVER let a issue or mistake you know is stratgic get treated as a tactical issue. "I didn't think it would matter this much" is the lament of the under informed. "I could have told you it would" is the response of the guy who most needs to be fired. 8-)

    3) State your position as a recommendataion, especially if your boss is well invested in ego games. "I would reccomend against because..."

    4) The next step is to banish "ok, but..." assume any positive assertion will be processed only up until the "but" and that the but, and all the following words will be. "We could do that but it will have problems when..." will feel like a vote in favor.

    5) Learn the prefix phrase "I have no informed opinion", stress the "informed" as necessary. This phrase will, up front and attached to what you really want to say, easily and professionally presage that you would be guessing, are willing to guess, or not willing to guess about. Advice given in known ignorance is not a crime, it's a sin...

    6) Finally, be willing to be out voted or overruled, and never let the fact that you were so overruled or outvoted color your ego or implementation. Presume there are factors you may not know or have control over and be part of the team once the team moves.

    Many people suggest getting everything in writing. Don't do that. Just get the important things in writing. It's only important to get things into the record at whatever level "the record" belongs. Overstressing the "I want it in writing" vibe makes you look either weak willed or un-trustworthy. Depending on the type and nature of the circumstance being discussed there are lots of ways to get on the record. (for instance... 8-)

    1) Get it in writing as a direct order if you must.

    2) Send it in email with a request for confirmation or clarification.

    3) Send an "unless otherwise directed" email. (especially when others are unwilling to make any decision at all, time is being wasted, and you know there is no inescapable harm. Fait Acompli can be outstanding mojo.)

    4) (in casual company on minor matters where the relationship is good) just say "I reserve the right to laugh at everybody when the thing catches fire." (but don't over use this unless it's family 8-)

    (The secret evil thing most people forget, if you bother to get it into the preminant record, * keep * a copy of that record somwhere you control, don't just leave it on the corporate email server... 8-)

    In short, the three greatest failures in an employee of any sort are:

    -- Failure to speak, to risk speaking, when others are in danger.
    -- Failure to act when direction has been set.
    -- Failure to balance both tact and urgency in any assessment.

    --
    Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
    --"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
    1. Re:Every Time the Direction Changes by IBitOBear · · Score: 1

      Quick Note: (not to reply to one's own post... 8-)

      I use "employee" in the above, not in the technical sense where an employee is different than a contractor or a consultant. By "employee" I mean the generic someone being paid to do something.

      Those rules apply no matter what the nature of your employment or the type of company involved. Email is eaiser when you work in computers instead of clean carpets, but the principles are unchanged.

      --
      Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
      --"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
  61. My $.04 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Yes but typically the more the client pays you, the more he respects you whether you deserve it or not, and will listen to you if/when you give advice. Otherwise you will just get on your employer's nerves by giving him advice that he would warrant as being worth only what he is paying you.

    1. Re:My $.04 by budgenator · · Score: 1

      not to mention that you're not a team player and will be blamed for being right.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
  62. My approach.. by Junta · · Score: 3, Insightful

    First, whether you are a consultant or an employee, the issue is still the same, and they have the same expectations.

    When faced with something I find dubious when first starting a project or taking on a consulting task, I do not assume an air of 'I know everything and this *will* fail'. I find it is actually more effective to ask questions that will lead them in the direction of figuring out the flaw for themselves. Also, it is not infrequent that there is *something* they neglected to mention that actually reveals what they want to be reasonable in context of the situation, and when that comes out in such a discussion, it doesn't make you look like a presumptious ass. If they figure out the flaw and where your questions where going, they appreciate not only your foresight, but helping them to understand the issue at a more fundamental level. If they reveal a piece of the puzzle that makes their request reasonable, or even if you end up having to point out the flaw yourself, they appreciate your effort to understand more about the big picture and how your piece fits in before just jumping in with a 'yes, sir' or flat out rejecting it without trying to understand why they might not be idiots.

    --
    XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
  63. Code of Engineering Ethics - READ IT by bap · · Score: 4, Informative
    If you are acting as a professional then you have certain obligations. These are summed up in various "codes of ethics for professional engineers" documents, such as the National Society for Professional Engineers "Code of Ethics for Engineers" at National Society for Professional Engineers' Code of Ethics for Engineers, which states in part:
    I. Fundamental Canons

    Engineers, in the fulfillment of their professional duties, shall:

    1. Hold paramount the safety, health and welfare of the public.

    2. Perform services only in areas of their competence.

    3. Issue public statements only in an objective and truthful manner.

    4. Act for each employer or client as faithful agents or trustees.

    5. Avoid deceptive acts.

    6. Conduct themselves honorably, responsibly, ethically, and lawfully so as to enhance the honor, reputation, and usefulness of the profession.

    I call particular attention to point 4, and would emphasize that your clients deserve your honest professional opinion concerning matters in your area of competence, the same as they would deserve if you were an employee with accompanying fiduciary responsibilities. This is what it means to act as their agent. Under certain circumstances, not calling their attention to something you know to be a problem could even be a deceptive act, and you certainly would not want to do that!
    1. Re:Code of Engineering Ethics - READ IT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The issue is exactly this -- agent or trustee.

      One can easily act as an agent while doing exactly what is ordered, and no more or less.

      The duties of a trustee typically involve more judgment.

      While the canon of ethics you quote is commendable for many reasons, injecting clarity into this issue is not one of them.

  64. A Consultant is there to consult by coday · · Score: 1

    Regardless of the environment you are working in you job is to offer you "expert" opinion. By withholding useful feedback you are _not_ doing your job.

    On the other hand there are always the cases where your words just seem to hit a brick wall. Your client is not obliged to take your advice, but as long as you have offered it and made sure they understood your point of view you have done your job. It is your responsibility to give them advice and it is their responsibility to take action on that advice.

    May I suggest getting something in writing (such as an email thread) should your advice be ignored showing that your client heard what you had to say but decided to go in a different dierction. This can help you should 'someone' try to blame you if things go wrong.

  65. First advice for consultants by ebusinessmedia1 · · Score: 1

    Be authentic, tell the truth (don't 'spin'), and do the best job given the time and money alloted.

    Do these things, and you and your client will both win.

    1. Re:First advice for consultants by gerardrj · · Score: 1

      More importantly.... find out how much time and money are alloted before you accept the job.
      If their goals are unreasonable (in your opinion), tell them so in a letter declining the assignment.

      I've actually been hired several times because I was the only consultant honest enough to tell the company that the goals where unrealistic and that I would not do the job as stated. Upon reflection they agreed with me and hired me to do the job at the higher cost/longer time line.

      In my book it's not about doing "the best job given the time and money alloted", it's about doing the best job that fills the actual requirements of the client. That takes time and consultation with those responsible for the project, and those are all too often not the ones writing the specs or doing the hiring.

      I would rather not do a job, than do it poorly.

      --
      Article X: The powers not delegated... by the Constitution...are reserved...to the people
  66. Here are your responsibilites by Asprin · · Score: 3, Informative

    You have two responsibilities as a consultant:

    1) To inform your client what options are available, as well as their associated consequences. (R&D)

    2) To manage your client's expectations. (Process Managment)

    If you have done your job correctly and communitated well, your client will be well aware of the consequences of making any decision by your advice (counter to your recommendations or not) and if they do something you don't agree with, they will probably have a very good reason, good or bad, for doing so.

    It is important for you to realize that these really are not your decisions to make.

    In the words of one of my former mentors, "I'll sweep your floors for $100/hour, but I will also advise you that this is not the best use of my time."

    If you fear legal repercussions, keep records of your correspondence in a folder and consult an attorney about drafting appropriate liability release paperwork. Well-designed documentation at the start of a contract and/or relationaship will generally eliminate this issue altogether.

    --
    "Lawyers are for sucks."
    - Doug McKenzie
    1. Re:Here are your responsibilites by darkmeridian · · Score: 1

      I took a Business Ethics class and they say that the right thing to do is to follow "limited paternalism." They make a distinction between professional and non-professional knowledge. For example, if you are selling stereos, you are ethically required to give out information only a professional would know, such as the response, etc. But you are not required to tell them layman stuff like the same unit is cheaper in the store across the street.

      In this case, tell them your professional opinion. Put it in writing, so they can't let you take the fall.

      --
      A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
  67. Look at it this way... by deanj · · Score: 1

    If *employees* at some companies aren't listened to, what makes you think consultants will be?

    You're a hired gun asked to do what you were hired to do. If you what you were hired to do doesn't involve giving advice, my advice is to shut-up and do what they ask. They could be wrong, but trying to argue the point with them just pisses 'em off.

    1. Re:Look at it this way... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Err.. I think you're missing something here..
      Consultants generally get paid a fuckload or two more than regular employees, so the employer wants to get his money's worth out of the whole thing, which is why it's OK to listen to consultants.
      (Employees, however, are just monkeys) ;)

  68. No, I don't think it depends... by Pollux · · Score: 1

    You're a consultant. You're being paid to provide information. If you get hired and do what you're paid to do, only to be told (directly or indirectly) by the management, "I don't want your opinion. I want yes-man," then tell them to hire a yes-man.

    There's never a guarantee as to what management is looking for when they hire a consultant. There's management who already have their idea of what needs to be done, and the only information they're looking for is how to do it. There's also management who's looking to make an informed decision and want expert advice. Any consultant who complains about management not listening to them should have asked what they were being hired to do before they accepted the contract.

    Of course, a lot of consultants also do not understand that just because they are experts with software / networking / etc., does not mean that they are being paid to make business decisions. Just because you think that spending $20,000 on new Cisco routers to help ease bandwidth congestion does not mean it is the best decision for the business.

    1. Re:No, I don't think it depends... by captainClassLoader · · Score: 1
      I agree with this. My personal rule, which has evolved over 14 years of consulting/contracting work, is simple: I state my objections 3 times, each time documenting everything. If I feel my objection wasn't understood or was ignored, I demonstrate increasing urgency (and sometimes volume) on the next iteration. If the client continues to disagree with me after the third pass through this algorithm, I shut up and do it their way, preserving my paper trail, of course.

      Yes, there was one case where this did cost me my job, but by and large I feel this tactic has successfully helped me walk the line between my obligation to give the client the best advice I have, and the obligation to carry out the task I've been assigned.

      YMMV, as always...

      --
      "The plural of anecdote is not data" -- Bruce Schneier
    2. Re:No, I don't think it depends... by tmasssey · · Score: 1
      Right on

      The important part about being a consultant is meeting the business needs of a business. Are RAID servers good? Yes. Do I always put them in? No. If it's a small office and it's the difference between a real fileserver and a crappy clone in the corner running Windows 98, I lose the RAID.

      It's not the right technical decision. But it is the right business decision. The right business decision is always the right decision. It's the one that balances the technical, financial, political, etc. decisions into the one that best fits the organization both today and into tomorrow.

  69. con + insult = consult by stonebeat.org · · Score: 3, Funny

    obligatory Dilbert quote: con + insult = consult consultant: Some who cons you and then insults you before leaving. :)

  70. Use your judgement: Not slashddotters by Toon+Town · · Score: 2, Informative

    In general I like to give my opinion and possible suggestions. If your advice is accepted then great. If not, then give the client what they requested. In the end, it is giving the client what they want, not always what they need or what you feel is best for them. You might be surprised. Clients are not as clueless as what you think. They chose to contract with you, didn't they? Also sometimes, what you feel is best might not be better.

    Judgement comes into play in dealing with the personalities. If your client is not the sort to want to listen to suggestions and advice, then keep quiet and give the client you best effort at what was requested.

    --
    Fun is all the more so when it shared
  71. Scope creep and billing. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 3, Insightful

    One of the biggest problems for any consultant on projects is "scope creep". A good project manager will ensure that the client gets all that he has paid for, and no more. If the fee wasn't enough - too bad. The consuitant loses. If it was accurate or generous, he makes some money.

    What the original poster is describing is the "extra mile" above and beyond the agreed scope. Consultants who do this for free too much go broke.


    Which is why the firms I've worked with NEVER bid fixed-price, always time-and-materials. If you did an ethical job, fixed-price was always a loser because you'd lose the bid unless you underestimated the work.

    Babysitting the billing is the job of the contract administrator of a multi-man shop, not of the consultant. That way you can play good-consultant/bad-administrator if the client has an issue. (Of course if you're a one-man-band you have to wear both hats, so you're stuck.)

    My algorithm for dealing with the original question:

    During the project definition phase:
    - Research the customer's problem to figure out what he needs. (Because when you ask him what he needs, he'll tell you the new stuff that he wants, completely skipping the core of the problem as an uspoken "of course".)
    - Suggest a design that gives him what he needs. Try to convince him that THAT is what he wants. Then.
    - Build what he now WANTS.

    Sometimes the customer will now want what he needs. Sometimes he won't. In the latter case maybe he's right, maybe you are. Doesn't matter. Now that he's informed, if he overrules you, it's his money so do it his way.

    If you go down a rathole at this point, it's his problem. But if you didn't tell him IN ADVANCE that he'd taken a wrong turn, you didn't do your job.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    1. Re:Scope creep and billing. by ansible · · Score: 1

      Which is why the firms I've worked with NEVER bid fixed-price, always time-and-materials.

      Must be nice to live in your world. Most people / companies I've dealt with want fixed-price.

    2. Re:Scope creep and billing. by Pii · · Score: 1
      Which is why the firms I've worked with NEVER bid fixed-price, always time-and-materials. If you did an ethical job, fixed-price was always a loser because you'd lose the bid unless you underestimated the work.

      If fixed-price is always a loser, then your problem is that you aren't very good at defining the scope and requirments.

      My current company is terrified of fixed-price, because my company is run by idiots. Every foray they have made into the fixed-price pool has resulted in project I like to call "Viet Nam," a sucking quagmire of scope creep, finger pointing, and the absence of repeat engagements.

      This is not the fault of the customer... The fault lies with the consulting company.

      As for not winning the business because an accurate assessment leads to an uncompetitive price, that's nonsense too.

      Your Statement of Work, and your Project Plan, simply need to show the client where the value lies. If your price is higher, but your SOW and/or PP show all of the gritty detail that your competition has glossed over, or missed entirely, you should walk away with the work. You can justify a high price so long as you have successfully articulated everything that will be involved.

      "All things being equal, let price be the guide..." You have to show the customer that all things are not equal. That's the way to be successful in the consulting business.

      --
      For those that would die defending it, Freedom
      has a sweet taste that the protected will never know.
  72. Contracting or consulting? by WaKall · · Score: 1

    A consultants job is to tell their client what they think is the best way to solve a problem. A contractor's job is to do the work they've been assigned by their client. Sometimes you end up playing both roles.

    If you tell your client "we should build it this way", and they tell you "No, we'll build it this way", then you're not a consultant, you're a contractor, and should do as you're told, like any other code monkey, after raising your concern once to the appropriate folks.

    If you're a permanent hire (not a contractor, temp, or consultant), then you have more say in how things should be done because you might be supporting it for a while. It doesn't mean management will listen, but (IMO) it does give you a right to bitch and yell more than the contractor.

    If you care this much about doing things the right way, and the long term health of the company that's currently paying your bills, you're in the wrong line of work. Find a company you want to work for in a long-term role and stay with them.

  73. Never question who signs the check by presearch · · Score: 3, Informative

    A wise consultant once told me this advice:

    Yours is not to question why,
    yours is but to bill them high.

    Sure, it's not the way to engineer a perfect world,
    but at some places (like AT&T), if you questioned
    every poor decision, nothing would get done.

    1. Re:Never question who signs the check by micromoog · · Score: 1
      Yours is not to question why,
      yours is but to bill them high.

      Were you born without business ethics or did you gradually lose them through bad experiences? Or are you just referring more to a "lackey" pure-implementation position where your consulting boss is the one whose job it is to question decisions?

  74. Clever subject line by eyez · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Why wouldn't you tell them? Especially as a consultant. You don't have to outright refuse what they say, but you can ALWAYS argue the bad ideas.

    Simply approach them, tell them you have concerns about the methodology, and go over, in detail, what you think is bad about the idea. If they shoot down your opinions, implement their bad idea and if it fails, use it as leverage the next time around. But always stick to that- when you bring it up, tell them that you think it's a bad idea, but you'll do it anyway if they won't heed your warning.

    --
    get 0wned. irc.w30wnzj00.com
  75. Question.. by rufusdufus · · Score: 1

    What are role assignments and what kind of employee collusion are you trying to prevent? I am mystified.

  76. My policy. by MKalus · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Be it consultant or fulltime I usually put my opinon of a solution in writing if I don't agree with it. I also explain why I consider it a bad solution and offer (if possible) an alternative solution.

    If the client then decides to go ahead with the original plan regardless of my opinion that is fine with me, in the end it just means I'll most likely come back later to fix things, but because it's "on the record" chances are slim to none that they can put the blame on me.

    So it's self preservation with an ethical twist.

    M.

    --
    If you want to e-mail me, use my PGP Key.
  77. How good is your insurance? by rongage · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Well, keep in mind one fairly important thing...

    Assume you do go ahead and give a "yes sir" answer, against your own best judgement. Now assume that $5 million later, something blows up. When the finger pointing starts to happen (and it WILL happen), the phrase "the consultant said it was ok" will probably be uttered, and often.

    Should the lawyers get ahold of this, you would be minced meat. ESPECIALLY if they find out that you thought your advice was wrong.

    Stick to your guns, if you disagree with something the boss is doing, then say so (and preferably document both your disagreement and the reasoning). If you loose the account, so be it. Would you rather be sued for malpractice?

    --
    Ron Gage - Westland, MI
    1. Re:How good is your insurance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Would you rather be sued for malpractice?

      sued for malpractice? what the hell are you talking about? this is the IT field! results are optional, and garbage work carries no consequence. this isn't the medical profession that has ethics boards, professional standards, and recourse in the event of negligence.

    2. Re:How good is your insurance? by rongage · · Score: 1

      Malpractice isn't limited to the medical field, by any stretch of the imagination.

      Malpractice can be generally be thought of as doing something that goes against the training you received in your profession.

      IANAL

      --
      Ron Gage - Westland, MI
  78. Questioning idiots by furry_marmot · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I was hired by the build manager of a certain PDA manufacturer (think "* of your hand") to automate their build processes. He told me they had these amazing build scripts, but the build engineers required hours to sit and run the script. (!) Therefore they needed some kind of automation server to run the scripts... Yeah, right. When I poked holes in his theory, he claimed that this is what SW Eng wanted, so I should forgive him if he got it wrong. As stupid as he turned out to be, I was just as stupid for thinking "I'll meet the engineers, find out what they really want, and everyone will be happy." I took the job. What a moe!

    Long story short: my boss didn't know squat about software (he thought you could run Mac programs on a Windows box) and he hired friends from previous jobs to be build engineers (all they could do was memorize steps given them by the developers). His lauded build scripts simply ran variations of the builds (different langs, debug/release, etc.). It was a big deal to these momos because they hadn't even had that level of automation before. Processing a request, checking out the code, verifying the build, copying built files to the network, and sending emails were all done manually; yet my boss continued to believe the scripts were wonders of automation and if I simply built his nonsense server (and other crackpot schemes he came up with later), SW Eng would finally take him seriously. I wrote memos, made presentations, drew pretty pictures, and tried to enlist the help of people I thought he might respect, but ultimately I stayed too long, the economy changed, I no longer found good job leads, and I got laid off.

    I'm working now, but the thing that irks me, and hurt me, is that my boss bad-mouthed me to my co-workers, apparently over my attempts to pull his head out of his ass. Despite what I say happened, I got the reputation for being trouble and refusing to obey orders. When I left, I had few friends, no references, and little to show for the time I spent there.

    My point (and I do have one) is that questioning or pushing won't get you very far. Sooner or later, they'll remember that they have all the cards and you're just some guy on a contract. Your question suggests you're not happy with your company's decisions. If you can get around to being happy, more power to ya. But if it's going to continue to bother you, get out and do it sooner rather than later. You have to remember that 1) not all jobs are good for you, and 2) sometimes people really are crazy and if you're in the line of fire, it may hurt you long term.

    1. Re:Questioning idiots by Maserati · · Score: 1

      In this case the client desperately needed to be told what he really wanted. Heck, he practically said it himself. He thought he had a "wonder of automation". Well, build him one. It'll be fun.

      The recommendation of any automated build system is clearly indicated. Or, if you're a scripting guy, write him more scripts to tie the ones he has together. Heck, put 'em in as cron jobs and you get automated daily builds.

      And he'll think you are a fucking god. I put a system together for one bunch of idiots using Filemaker and Applescript. The GUI had a display for each sales lead and two big buttons marked in primary colors. They loved it. It wasn't much, but I got to do something clever [1], they didn't care how, I got paid for it, and that bunch of evil cretins was happy for a while.

      I'm not saying to do shoddy work, but don't forget to manage your own expectations.

      In these cases, where obvious cretins are waving their hands and talking about databases as if it were magic - because to them it is - in these cases shiny works. Ideally, you get to do a pet project, because they don't ultimately care about the implementation, so long as they get their shiny toy. "Dashboard" is a good buzzword if he reads magazines and you're doing any sort of system management or control project.

      They get what they want. You get paid. They're happy. At worst you have a reference. At best he talks you up so persistently that the cluefull people hire you for real work.

      By the way, SW Eng should have been you natural ally.

      [1] I managed to optimize this process by about 2 orders of magnitude while showering (try it) a few months ago (ahem). But the process only bottlenecked on speed once, on a job where they forgot to tell us that the client had paid for this feature. Then they had to get 3 weeks worth of leads (it took that long for these bozos, my cretins and a now-all-but-defunct European ERP vendor, to notice) emailed out in the TWO HOURS before the sales veep would address the field reps. Did I mention there had been no leads for 3 weeks ? My original implementation was fast enough by about 12 minutes. I wish I'd thought of the optimization 3 years ago, but that's life.

      --
      Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1992-1951
  79. Insert $1250 for the next three minutes by blair1q · · Score: 4, Funny

    I could tell you, but then I'd have to bill you.

  80. I know what you mean... by BladeMelbourne · · Score: 2, Informative

    As a consultant/web developer I get clients always choosing the wrong way they would like something done. Almost to the point where I don't really want to put my name on the product. Granted the customer is always right, but we do have to attempt to enlighten them.

    Communicating the Pros & Cons in non-geek-speak is a good start, but sometimes whey have their mind made up. Cost is usually the biggest factor they use to pick one development path over another.

    The way I try to correct them is by trying to let them know that they will save money in the long run, or have a more reliable/useable/customisable product.

    ---
    I tried to get first post. How did I go?

  81. lawsuit warning by Lord+Prox · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I was working in something similar and the "computer guy" in the office wanted things done in a certian way. (Now if he was worth anything why am I here? And why is he running AOL over their xDSL?!) but after trying to get the point across that what they were asking for was basicly to get raped online and not getting anywhere I shrugged and did what they wanted. "Customers always right" hahahah NO. A few weeks later they were mad as hell demanding that I fix this mess (after all I was the "expert" in spite of the fact I was forced to do what this idiot "in office computer guy" demanded) and was told if I did not I would be "held responsible for losses incurred". I took that as a law suit.

    From that point on I just walk if in a situation similar and have re written the terms of agreement they have to sign. Not that will prevent a suit from being filed but it might help.

    Sometimes you can't reason with people. Money or no money, do your job right. In the short term you might loose a client or 2 but in the long term you will be better off and your reputation will shine like a knight in armor. That is your best sales pitch as well, a fab reputation and word of mouth.

    Right, wrong, irrelevent. What is, is.

    1. Re:lawsuit warning by arkanes · · Score: 3, Informative

      This is exactly why anytime your client goes against your advice you should get it in writing. Otherwise it's your word against thiers. If you're a really GOOD consultant, you might even walk out if they do such a thing - after all, they hired your for your expertise.

  82. It is their Money! by DoninIN · · Score: 2, Informative

    To me this is the point. When my employer does something I disagree with this is what I do. First I explain exactly why I think it is a bad idea and that in the long run we'd be better off doing it some other way. Then once the decision making phase is over I run with whatever my employer decides, and do my best to make it work. You see it's his money, but more than that it's his priorities, and I am not always aware of the overall scheme of things. The same is true when you're doing consulting work you should always express your misgivings, but then (assuming it's legal and ethical) do your best to make their bad idea work.

  83. Consultant versus Contractor by Kefaa · · Score: 4, Insightful
    The difference between the two is the very point you make. Or more to the point, if you cannot tell the difference between a contractor and a consultant, you have a contractor.

    A contractor does as there told, and in the absence of being told anything, may do nothing. (Although this would be considered poor even for a contractor). A contracter is contracted to perform a service, code for example. Given a set of specifications, they code well, debug well and implement well.

    A consultant is a value add. They are a contractor plus, they provide additional expertise and insight gained from experience that is sometimes difficult to find within a company. Many companies that hire consultants have an in-house staff consisting of "big fish in a small pond." This is not demeaning as it sounds. Consider a tennis player who only plays high school students. With few exceptions the best they will become are as good as their experience. Development is the same way. I tell people when I leave, their people will know as much about what I bring as I can pass along.

    This was all leading into the question. If you are unable to explain the reason to take an action, or to select a different path, one of several things may be occurring.

    I am not explaining the options well. An issue for you to deal with and not your client. My inability to explain a situation sufficiently to be convincing, is my issue not theirs.

    I am working against "it cannot be done this way" mentality. On the last two sites I worked at, I was told they could not, or specifically, it was impossible to do what I was asking. As it turned out, it was impossible because they had never done it and did not know how. In two situations at the last client, I was able to remove a full time manual process (30+ hours per week) by automating it in less than one week. A miracle? No. I knew it was possible.

    You don't know the politics. A good read for Developers and Leaders alike is Rapid Application Development - Taming wild software Schedules. It gives insight into this aspect. In many cases a project cannot get approval to do it "right", but can get approval to "do it" then "do it right" in support. Logical from the outside? No, but understandable.

    You are missing something and they may not want to tell you. I have seen projects were they were approved to the dollar. If it went over, even by a few hundred dollars, it was killed. Even if it lost thousands. The logic(?) being that it is better to kill a project that is over budget immediately, rather than let it continue on. This may be the case or it may simply be you do not know all the players, policy, and interfaces involved.

    In some of these cases you can keep trying. Hoping to add value. The attempt, given it has good business sense behind it, will keep that client happy, even when they do not choose your ideas. At least they see new ones coming and maybe the next one will hit.

  84. Do what I did in the Marines... by BoneFlower · · Score: 1

    Tell them you think its a bad idea when you recieve a bad order, but if they say "do it anyways" do it anyways. Tell them politely, make sure you have your ducks in a row, and they should take it well- Especially if you have a better idea, even if they think their way is best, you will often gain respect for being a more active worker, who is sincerely looking out for their best interests.

    Also, if you tell them something is a bad idea, then later it bites them in the ass, they may remember you

  85. My advice by desideria · · Score: 1

    When I was consulting, I would never flat out say no, after all the client IS paying me money and should be in control over their decisions.

    However, if something seems overly expensive, resource intensive, or whatever you should say something, but not just no. I would come up with several solutions and presen them to the client. Nine times out of ten, the client would come to the correct decision on their own. Of course, I'd ask for more information from the client as well, because there may be factors I haven't though of.

    I've also found that clients will trust you once you've proven you have their best interests in mind.

  86. Re:Do what I did in the Marines... Continued by BoneFlower · · Score: 1

    Oops. Accidentally hit submit, I hate laptop keyboards...

    Anyways, if you tell them something is a bad idea, and later it bites them in the ass, they may remember you.

    One of the executives may say:
    "Sir, we had a consultant a few months ago, he did some good work- Also, he saw this coming. Perhaps we should bring him back on to help us get out of this?"

    Company President replies:
    "Mr Jones, call that consultant. You can spend double the normal per consultant budget to get him in, we need this fixed NOW."

  87. Start shopping for a new job! by mabhatter654 · · Score: 1
    If your in a posistion where you are given a choice by management that you know to be the wrong direction for the project, start looking for the door! Especially if you have to "ask slashdot" because you're afraid of the boss.

    If it's in the scope of your contract [I'll assume that it is.] Then it sounds like a policy/direction change of the project. If you were paid for consulting and they didn't ask your opinion [again, your fearful to speak up] on the proposed changes, then no matter the title, your a contractor, not a consultant! They just want a warm body for the chair, not a business committment.

    Just from the fact you have to ask, they don't want your input. If you speak up, you'll just cause trouble. If you're right, but do what they ask anyway, it's still your fault. You're the contractor! You are there as a body to blame!

    Personally, my boss likes to do the same thing. He brings in new people as "contractors" expecting them to make big improvements, then second-guesses every suggestion and expects the status-quo. Ask once, then do what they say. They might be up to listening, but if they brought you on to value your opinion, they should have outright asked you up front. Try not to make waves, then get the 1134 out of the way!

  88. The question is: are you in it for the long run? by LazloToth · · Score: 1

    If you are, then, as a consultant, you want to work with people who value your opinion. They might not always do everything you recommend, but, on the other hand, they'll hold it against you if you let them crash and burn. People pay consultants for what they know. You can always offer your best opinion, preferably in writing, and preferably with more than one viable option. Then take payment for what you're asked to do.

    --


    It's only funny until someone gets hurt. Then, it's hilarious.
  89. Questions by Herkum01 · · Score: 1

    The company I work for hired a consultant to help resolve issues that they were having with a piece of software. I went and talked with her about the problem, off to the side. I asked her straight up, is the problem with the software or with the person who was in charge of the software, and said it was the person. I asked, "are you going to say anything?" She said "no because noone wants to here that!" So after shelling out 40K for this contractor, she was going to tip-toe around the real problem for why she was there, so that managment would not have to hear that someone made a dumb decision in who they had hired.

    So even when a consultant/contractor is paid for an opinion, there is a good chance that are not going to tell the whole truth because they don't want to cut themselves off from potential business.

    Companies that are too sensitive to take criticism are not going to be doing any real business with consultants anyways. They are looking for an opinion that matches the answer that they have come up with. Customers who will listen to your opinion without getting angry about it are more likely to come back. Someone who can respect honesty will value your opinion more so than someone who is just looking for you to say "everything is just peachy the way things are!"

  90. The type of consultant matters by enronman · · Score: 1

    Issues within your purview of expertise, or that seriously affect your area are ones you should comment upon. In any case, your response should be well thought out and reasoned. I'm a business consultant myself. I sometimes feel and think things very strongly. However, I am always very careful to make sure everyone knows what my analytical conclusions are and what my feels are. Something close to the scientific method drives my engagement conclusions. I would sugest that if your going to go outside what the client knows your good at, then what you tell them needs to be a data driven conclusion that others would be able to draw. Further, attacking a idea is far harder to pull off than sugesting that there is a better solution out there. Finally, if your a consultant then you should know it all depends. Without specific details and situational knowledge who knows what you should do. This is just some of my engement framework I've given.

  91. Stop Beating around the Bush! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Jees, anyone would think most of the posters want to either be wrapped in cotton wool, or wrap the client in cotton wool, or both. Pull your head out people.

    I've been a consultant for many years. I tell the client straight up, before the contract is signed - "I'm not a yes man. If you want one, go elsewhere. I fix problems. That's why I'm here, you have a problem you want fixed. If you didn't I would not be sitting here. I'll do everything in my power to fix the problem. There may be times when you don't like my fixes. If you are not happy with this now, do not sign the contract. This contract will end in one of 3 ways. 1 - You fire me. 2 - I quit. 3 - The problems are completely fixed. I've never had option 3 come to pass..."

    As a consultant, if you are constantly CYA, and not telling the client what they need to know, you're in the wrong profession, or doing the job wrong. Yes, sometimes the company wants a scapegoat. I've been in situations like that. That's why my pay check is as large as it is. In every case except the first, I knew what I was getting myself into. Remember, it ends one of 3 ways....

    Enjoy,
    Michael.

  92. Why are you there? by peacefinder · · Score: 1

    As a consultant, are you hired for your expertise, or your obedience?

    If the former, then I think you have a clear duty to inform the customer when they make a decision that runs counter to your expert opinion. The force with which you should make this objection will vary substantially based on your relationship with the customer and the severity of the potential consequences to your customer and to you. Maybe you should go to the mat to stop them from hurting themselves, or maybe you don't really want them as a client anymore. [shrug]

    On the other hand, if you hire yourself out for your blind obedience, well... I hope you won't ever be working for me. :)

    --
    With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter. -- William Lloyd
  93. Make them responsible... by nettdata · · Score: 1

    When I'm in a situation where a key decision has to be made that can have severe potential repercussions (as in "Oh My God We're Fucked"), and my opinion is being ignored or my recommendations are not being utilized, I write up a quick memo and take it to my immediate superior and get him to sign it as having been received.

    In the memo, I explain the situation, my recommendations, and my rationalle, my fears, and get it on the record what my thoughts are.

    This is a blatently obvious Cover Your Ass and "Don't Make Me The ScapeGoat" move, and people don't take it lightly. You can almost hear them think "what does he know that I don't?" It generally causes them to review the situation, and in probably 80% of the times I've done it (20 or so times so far), they have modified their original decisions.

    Once that Memo's been signed and my position is on the record, and if they still want it done their way, I will gladly do it, as that is my job... to do what they want (illegalities aside, of course).

    I'm a contractor/man-whore, whatever you want to call it, and it is not my place to enforce my opinions on the customer. My job is to supply them with the benefits of my experience and expertise, and to help them make informed decisions.

    At the end of the day, it is THEIR decision to make.

    --



    $0.02 (CDN)
  94. Hello by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can't think for myself. Would a bunch of 15 years old answer my professional question for me?

    Thanks.

  95. You are a moron. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If Citrix is being used only to administer servers by one or two users, the differences between Citrix and Terminal Server are not worth even 2 hours of your time and your customers' time.

  96. Ethics and consulting by pcraven · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I use this for an interview question now when looking for new employees.

    Back when I was consulting, I worked for a company A that held large numbers of personal records for another company B. The company B wanted to implement a sign-on that wasn't secure. A brute force attach could gain entry to the entire company's records.

    Despite objections of Company B, Company A insisted on the insecure sign-on. So company B, where I was a consultant, implemented it. (Later Company A's security review people rejected it, so it never went on-line.)

    The question that came out of it, if you were a consultant and ordered to implement something insecure, would you? If I deliver the question correctly, most of the people I interview say they would do as I ask. Even if it would expose the records of hundreds of thousands of people.

    Faced with losing your job, or the possibility of compromising other peoples records, most people choose the job.

    In the case of this job, I chose to hit the road and never regretted it.

  97. i thought a consultant just gave advise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I thought the whole idea of a consultant was to give the customer information and recommendations. And then let the customer make the decision what they wanted to do--good or bad.

  98. I am a senior consultant by sboss · · Score: 1

    I run into that problem on a daily if not hourly basis. What a consultant needs to do is suggest/recommend the right thing, when the customer pushes back (and it is obvious that they will not do the right thing) then go with the best solution that the customer will accept. If you recommend the right thing, then they tell you no, and they you come up with a solution that they accept you have done what you can. If they come back at you later, you can show them that you recommended the right thing and they turned it down, and your next recommendation was the best solution that was acceptable by them.

    It is an art not a science.

    Good Luck!

    --
    Scott
    janitor
    sdn website family
    email: scott at sboss dot net
  99. Tell them as much as they can hear by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I figure once I'm in the door at a client, I have to do everything in my power to help their business. If they're not open to suggestions and they've asked me to do something suboptimal but "good enough", I'll just do it. But if they need to hear something I'll risk my job to tell them the truth. I think that's the value of a consultant. I'm more used to getting another job than most regular employees, so I can afford to be the messenger that gets shot.

    That doesn't come up often though; I've got to be pretty sure of myself before I raise a stink.

  100. Wrong question... by g051051 · · Score: 2, Informative

    The question shouldn't be "When should a consultant question decisions", it should be "When should a consultant stop questioning a decision".

    It's your duty to a customer to fight questionable technical decisions. However, once all the data has been examined, if the customer still insists on a poor course of action, you're left with 3 options:

    1. Yes Sir!
    2. I quit!
    3. Do it the right way and don't tell anyone (if possible).

    The important thing, though, it to make sure the customer has all the pertinent data for a correct decision. I've had problems in the past where consultants simply said "Yes, sir" to a technically poor request (from a manager, not me!), and caused a lot of damage to a system under construction. Had they explained the situation, we might have made a better choice.

  101. It is the professional thing to by rockhome · · Score: 1

    It is the professional thing to keep the customer
    well informed and answers questions honestly.

    A good consultant should not merely be a yes man. No matter what the customer decides, the consultant should explain clearly and honestly what the ramifications of the decision are. If the customer is seeking guidance from the consultant, and the customer doesn't guide, he is in a precarious position.

    Providing knowledge is different from doing additional work. In my line of consulting, I frequently must inform the customer that what he wants or is doing is not the best course of action. I am aware of the service they requested and are paying for, but I cannot merely let things happen without ensuring that the customer is well informed.

    If the customer notes any concerns and objections, proceed and finish the job, but by all means, do not play the yes person.

  102. Integrity is the key by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Present your case to parties involved, have documentation and the potential problems with doing the project incorrectly.

    If they ignore your warnings, consider not engaging in the project if it going to bomb. As the consultant, you might just end up as the fall guy. If it bombs and they use you as the scapegoat you will damage your reputation, causing you to lose work (It is after all a small "IT" world, and bad news does travel beyond the companies four walls)

    If you end up engaging in the project be sure to document your concerns, document issues as the come up, so you have something to present when the project termination meeting occurs.

  103. Depends on the customer and be careful. by hanenkamp · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This is one of those things that can get you on both sides. First, the customer gets you by asking, "Why didn't you tell me this was a bad idea?" Second, the customer gets you by saying, "Look, this is the way we do it, we've always done it, and we aren't changing." Sometimes you get both responses from the same customer.

    I can't speak for contract programming, but in networking I used to consult in a company that preferred Linux/NetWare solutions on the server side with a Windows NT/2000 desktop--this was a little more than a year ago. We understood that each platform had pros and cons and the systems proposed varied widely depending upon the needs of the customer--we even recommended Windows only environments sometimes.

    However, we lost one customer because we didn't bid a Windows 2000 server solution and argued against it because it was simply not in their best interest to use 2000 file services. They got a bid from another company that bid a 2000 solution and gave the bid and the rest of their business to them. In the end, we had to reevaluate how we refused a customer's desires and when we were really willing to turn them down--this is a 3 man shop, so loss of customers who had us on retainer was a serious consequence.

    I'd say making sure the client knows your mind is probably good. But, knowing that they make all the decisions is priority. As with any form of persuasion, the best is the kind that gives them the facts and makes the persuadee think he made the decision himself.

    Anyway, walk a fine line. Hopefully, if you're good enough, you can avoid and/or afford to turn down the really easy-to-tick-off customers that are never happy.

    Cheers,
    Sterling

  104. I work for a "consulting" company by gtshafted · · Score: 1

    I'm not going to name it (Hint Hint: used to be part of a famous and government killed accounting company)... but from my experience most consultants just have an air (the sound and look) of credibility - not actual knowledge that will actually help the company's bottom line or efficiency. From what I've seen, consultants are actually the ones causing the problems - pushing technological "solutions" (mostly Microsoft crap) that they themselves don't actually understand aside from the marketing hype. I've seen open source solutions (that will actually have an impact on the bottom line) push aside no matter how reliable and strong on performance, just because joe six pack has never heard of it... I think this stems mostly from our company's hiring and placement practices. The bulk of our consultants were not technical majors in college (EE, CS, CompE, etc...). Our work force is mostly composed of marketing, business, and economics majors. While this does make sense for non-technology based consulting, unfortunately many of these consultants are placed in IT related positions for which they neither have the experience or formal training for... Oh yeah, get this: do you know these companies come up with the quantitative "savings" they come up with for the company? Consultant: "We have improved this imaginary thing and this imaginery thing." (Translation: We don't really keep track of anything quantitatively, because we're too busy gossiping in the office - so we pulled all of this bullshit out of our ass. You will believe us because we work for a famous big company, and we look like we know our shit.) Person Who Hired Consulting Company: "Based on what you just told us, we believe this is worth 10 Gagillion dollars of savings to our company" (Translation: Holy shit, we paid you guys seven figures to come up with this stupid bullshit! Oh man I have to come up with some even better bullshit so I don't get Fired! Look calm...)

  105. Impartial vs Obstinate by Lurgen · · Score: 1

    Tying professionalism and hourly rates together almost negates the first. For me, the first responsability of a consultant is providing advice. Sometimes, that advise will conflict with other peoples opinion. Once in a while, it will totally agravate your current employer. But in my opinion it is the duty of a consultant to put forward the RIGHT answers as he sees it.

    One of the benefits of being a consultant is not being tied to the politics of an organisation. You come in, do your thing, and you leave. Stepping on toes isn't anywhere near as dangerous as it is in a full-time role - 3 months is hardly a career.

    I'm a consultant myself, and I actually make use of this regularly. Once in a while I have to shoot down some full-time employees idea, but I make sure to do so in such a way as to make it obvious that I'm only interested in the solution, not the politics. Usually, if I present my case properly it is accepted.

    Of course, there will always be times when you are over-ruled, and forced to implement a bad solution. Do you do it? Of course you do - you are under contract to deliver the services requested by your employer. But first you make sure that it is clear that you don't agree.

    Failing to accept that you won't always be allowed to do what you personally think is best is a fatal flaw in any employee. None of us will have the right answer every time. Every one of us will make bad or stupid choices once in a while. Knowing how to present your answer, and yield when necessary will help you progress and develop. It will also help ensure you don't just get fired on the spot.

    Lurgen.
    http://www.lurgen.com/

  106. Get a grip by The+AtomicPunk · · Score: 1, Insightful

    It sure sounds like you're asking us to define your personality for you. Grow a pair, make a decision, and live with it.

  107. its the job by 2057 · · Score: 0

    it is the consultants job to give consul to the person who hired him/her and that means that he/she can say they don't like their decisions.

    --
    For The Best Jazz/Hip-hop fusion > COlD DUCK
  108. Consultant's responsibility by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

    Well personally, if I'm hired as a consultant, and asked to do something really stupid for them, I'll advise them that it's a really stupid idea, explain why (in detail if necessary), and if you can't get them to understand that it's a very very poor idea, then do it anyways..

    If it's that bad for them, they'll be calling you soon enough to make a different fix.

    I do recommend documenting the incident in some way.. Work logs, or even writing it on the invoice that they sign is usually a good way to get it done.

    Consider when you take your car in for repairs. They say "You need $1000 worth of extra work", even though you don't.. They'll write it on the invoice anyways, and when you go rolling out of there without the work done, they can't say they didn't advise you of it.

    You weren't clear to the scenerio of what the customer was asking for..

    Like, if someone says "I want the SQL server set up with the password of password, and make it clear to everyone that the password is "password"", you calmly and clearly explain that anyone on the net who wants to access (or destroy) their data can do it.. Note it down somewhere that you strongly advised them against it.

    Once they're very clear on it, tell them, "A hacker in Russia by the name of Vladamier will be stealing all of the credit card numbers in your database tonight, and then erasing all of your data."

    Put it in simple words they can understand like that. :)

    If they still insist, do the work. Get paid (make sure the check clears). Wait a few weeks. Then log in through another server (preferably in China. hehe), and drop everything from their database.

    They may sue you. But you warned them, and strongly suggested against it. It's their company and their decision..

    Soon enough, some script kiddie will find their server, and try the password 'password', and voila, their data is stolen, and the databases wiped out.

    They may remember that you warned them against it, and ask you to come fix it now..

    I've done work I didn't particularly like doing, and strongly advised the customers against. But, it was exactly what they wanted, so they got it.. Personally, I don't want to set up another Microsoft server for anyone, but I'd bet you I'll do it again before I die.. The difference between what I recommend, and what the customer wants.

    --
    Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
  109. A simple question by cstec · · Score: 2, Interesting
    This is a question the average slashdot reader is painfully unqualified to answer.

    Short and sweet. As a _professional_ consultant, your client's best interests ARE your goals. You will fight eloquent, long, hard and do _everything_ possible to ensure your clients the best possible outcome. Ass kissing [implicitly to the point of inaccuracy] is to fail professionally.

    Anyone who's been a real consultant for 10 years or more is welcome to reply. Anyone who hasn't lasted 10 years or more is not qualified to. If you haven't walked the walk, shut up.

  110. Consider the politics. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Before giving an answer to your client, think about the reaction it will receive. Ask yourself a few questions.

    Is your client open minded?
    Is your client's boss open minded?
    Does your client's organization respond well to change?
    Who's feelings will be hurt when you express your opinion?
    Are they in a position to screw you?
    Are they the type of person that will try to screw you?

    I have seen a situiation where another consultant gave well supported technical opinion that went against the advice of the client's guru and lead to several major organizational changes. Six months later, the project was successfully completed, the consultant's contract was not renewed, and the manager that hired the consultant was laid off.

  111. resounding YES by acidrain69 · · Score: 1

    I'm not a consultant (not professionally at least) but I have done computer work for those not in-the-know before. Let them know. Ethically and Financially it is the right thing to do. You don't have to outright criticize them. If you are a consultant, you should have at least some talking skills. You need to point it out in a non-insulting way. As long as you have made someone aware of it, you are blameless after that. Remember, your reputation rides on their satisfaction.

    --
    -- Having a Creationist Museum is like having an Atheist place of worship
  112. Some advice by windlord · · Score: 1

    Aye. From my personal experience, make sure you make a really big hoo-hah and generate lots of black n white when you tell your clients that what they are doing is Wrong(tm). That way if they choose not to listen to your professional advice and when things screw up, just throw them your paper predicting the problem they are facing now. The same paper which you written 3 months before the project was even implemented and cced to all the departmental heads and the CTO. They will hopefully learn from their experience and listen to you more next time.

    1. Re:Some advice by bernywork · · Score: 1

      Shooting someone down in a ball of flames though doesn't help anyone, the usual "I told you so" admittedly can be ESPECIALLY fulfilling when it happens to the letter; but don't burn bridges in the process.

      --
      Curiosity was framed; ignorance killed the cat. -- Author unknown
  113. At the end of the day... by xdroop · · Score: 1
    At the end of the day, the customer is the one paying the bills and dealing with the success or failure of the exercise. A contractor/consultant merely follows along, and can/will be discarded when such action is appropriate.

    As a consultant myself, I make sure that the people I report to directly get used to clear, concise, detailed communication (this is not a contradiction). I make sure that I investigate the pros and cons of both my suggested solution and any solutions that the customer suggests -- but once the customer has selected a solution, it is my job to make every (contracted) effort to ensure the success of their chosen solution. Especially if it differs with the one I would have chosen. The customer must call the shots. In writing.

    And no matter what, never, ever say to the customer "I told you so" in so many words. You must make it a "how can we fix this situation we are in?"

    Customers do aparrently stupid things for reasons which are unknown to us -- one customer I had balked at spending $5K to have a particular problem solved, but had no problem paying me $3K a week for three months band-aiding things. I discovered later that the company in question had a hard freeze on capital spending, but since I was "overhead" it was better on the balance sheet to keep me around.

    --
    you should read everything on the internet as if it had "but I'm probably talking out of my ass" appended to it.
    1. Re:At the end of the day... by Maserati · · Score: 1

      And people wonder why the economy sucks. Business is run by idiots. If spending an extra $37K makes sense, then your accounting system is broken.

      But I state the obvious.

      --
      Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1992-1951
  114. Ask [politely] what they want from you by cyranose · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Basically, if they're paying the bill, you have a responsibility to deliver what they want (if possible). And if you can't or won't, you have a responsibility to tell them.

    'What they want' is the question. They may want opinions, or they may simply want hands typing. It's okay to ask. And if you don't like the answer, then you can decide how important 'being right' is to you. Keep in mind that 'Right' is often relative. And sometimes it takes people time to come around, longer if they've been forced into a corner.

    I've been lucky that most of my clients have wanted my opinions and experience along with actual code. They haven't always listened and it has often been frustrating. But even though I may know certain aspects of 3D optimization (in my case) better than them, they know their business and their overall needs better than me. In many cases, I was probably right about 'what we should do' and they were undoubtedly more right about 'what they could afford to do.' It's their company, afterall.

    Sorry if that isn't as specific as possible, but the thing I've learned after 10 years is that every case is different and flexibility is key.

  115. You're opinion is what they're paying for... by codefool · · Score: 2
    So give it. It's up to them to decide to heed it or not. In the end you're a soldier and you should do what you're told. After all, it's their business. You get paid the same either way.

    The problem would be if you didn't give your opinion and it would have saved them from a big mistake. Then you got problems.

    So always give your opinion - clear, consice, and tactfully. Answer questions. Then sit back and wait for instructions.

    --
    "Stop whining!" - Arnold, as Mr. Kimble
  116. My answer: Be careful by smoondog · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I have found that when i go into a contract/consultant situation, I almost always have some differing opinions with management. Sometimes voicing those opinions are welcome, sometimes it isn't. Everytime it has been welcome, I have been aware that it was welcome. In those cases I have been an ad hoc advisor to the project, not just a developer implementing a clear path. Occasionally I have voiced my opinion when I wasn't sure if it was welcome, and, (guess what?) it wasn't. In one case it even resulted in my quick, quiet dismissal.

    Geeks (like myself to some extent) are generally bright and very opinionated. Use that brightness to realize that there is a time for putting in that extra effort and there is a time for simply just shutting up, working and drinking after work.

    -Sean

  117. It's all about the requirements by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    If you take a well written requirements specification, which outlines the business, technical, financial, training, integration, etc requirements of a system and show it to ten tekkies, my experience is that you'll get pretty similar solution designs from all ten.

    Arguments about approach only seem to happen in my clients when the requirements aren't defined properly.

    Therefore when I find myself in a situation where I'm seeing client recommendations that don't make sense, I always offer to document their requirements for them. Most stakeholders actively want to assist in this process, and in doing so I find that they talk themselves out of the bad ideas and into good ones.

    So I'm not telling the customer they're wrong, I'm subtley showing them a laundry list of things they may not have considered - psychologically more friendly.

  118. Can't Say No by iCharles · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I've been in consulting or contracting for eight years. There is one rule:


    You can never sa "no." You can only say "yes," then lead them to the conclusion that really isn't the best option.


    Presenting options, explaining the risks, and showing why something isn't the best way are certainly valid (and expected) actions. If done appropriately and tactfully, it is certainly worth doing. If the person telling you to do this significantly outranks you (i.e. their CIO, you would match do a junior level), take it to your leadership.


    Be sure to listen to what you are being told before acting (and even after). You may find that, while it doesn't make sense in the abstract, but, in the context of the clients business, it may make more sense (for technical, legal, political, or financial reasons).


    Also, make sure that whatever opinion you are going forward with has the client in mind. For instance, don't push a certain tool just because you personally favor it.


    If they still insist on whatever it is you have a problem with, you have two choices: just do it, or quit.

  119. the one rule of consulting by FSK · · Score: 1

    No matter what you do, remember the one rule of consulting:

    If your client weren't crazy, dumb, annoying, immature and/or frustrating they wouldn't need you.

    Having said that, think about what the goals of your direct contact at the company are, and do whatever it takes to meet those goals, even if doing so would go against your better judgment.

    --
    When punk rock is outlawed, only outlaws will have punk rock.
  120. There's a Fine Line ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    As someone with technical expertise in a small company, I find that one cannot always trust their consultants. Often enough, the consultants have another reason for providing the advice that they do. Sometimes it has to deal with special deals that they get from various vendors, as well as their own bias.

    In this day and age, it's not the easiest thing to do, finding a completely unbiased consultant. There are consultants that feel an MS solution would be best, and some that would push for the Unix solution. Their own personal preferences can often taint the opinion that they provide.

    A consultant is not always paid to provide a final decision, a consultant is very often hired to provide advice. So should my company hire a consultant, and we don't necessarily prefer the decision that consultant makes, we'll pay her/him for their time, and go with the solution we find to be better. We know our company better then they do most often, and as well know what we want.

    After all is said and done, it's not the consultant's job to make the final decision unless that is what the company was looking for. I most often find issue when a consultant gets insistant and sometimes outright rude when stating the way they feel a company should go. And I've both rejected plenty of bad advice from consultants, as well as fought through fixing the solutions that came about due to accepted bad advice.

  121. Some ideas on what should be done by blurg64 · · Score: 4, Informative

    After reading the story above, there are a few things that come to mind that we do where I am currently working:

    1. Maintain a Risk Register. Any project manager worth there salt would want to know what the risks, how to mitigate those risks and what they are going to cost. If you are being asked to cut corners, inform the PM to add your concerns to the register. The project is doomed to failure if the risks arn't known or mitigated.

    2. Most consultants would have a formal reporting mechanism to the client, a client progress meeting for example. If you have concerns a very powerful way of communicating those concerns is to formally report it via the client progress meeting. If the Project / Programme manager is not taking your risk on board, the project sponsor and business should be in a position to bring pressure to bear and deal with the issue. I myself have been in several situations where problems have come to light, that we highlighted on the client progress report many months earlier and effectively covered ourselves by highlighting the risk.

    3. If you are consulting, there is an air of professionalism to highlighting issues as you see them. Ultimately in the end you will get a good reputation and be offered more work. I have seen this happen in many places. Before anyone chips in with scope creep and people going out of business, if you are silly enough to bid for work without including sufficient contingency both in time and price to cover unforseen issues and not fully understanding the problem, then you deserve to lose money.

    4. Microsoft, yep I know most of you hate them, but they have a very effective programme management framework called MSF. One of the features of it is a process called War Room. In this, All functional and technical leads, Business Analysts, Management and sometimes developers come together and quickly discuss what they are doing and the issues they are having. This is an excellent way for a consultant, or anybody in fact, to highlight issues that may not be making up to management and in many cases come up with a solution.

    I could go on for hours but my fingers are starting to hurt :)

  122. Terminal services are not free by Malc · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Terminal services are not free. You get 90 days to install a terminal services licensing server... which has to talk to the Microsoft Clearinghouse. Perhaps you should look at the Terminal Services Licensing FAQ, it looks like an unnecessary headache to me.

    1. Re:Terminal services are not free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that licensing is geared towards peopel running terminal services in application server mode. you don't need a licensing server for remote admin mode.

    2. Re:Terminal services are not free by Pfhreakaz0id · · Score: 2, Informative

      they are "free" (included in Windows Server 2000) if you run in "administrative mode" (only one user can connect to admin the machine) as opposed to the "application server mode" you are talking about.

    3. Re:Terminal services are not free by bernywork · · Score: 1

      I hate to be pedantic, but you can have two people connect to it remotely, and one person at the console.

      --
      Curiosity was framed; ignorance killed the cat. -- Author unknown
    4. Re:Terminal services are not free by Pfhreakaz0id · · Score: 1

      cool. that's actually good to know. I wasn't certain about the one user thing. I just knew it was limited. Also, I'll be pedantic on myself and say it is actually called "remote administration mode" :)

  123. Been there, done that....BUT by UnixTool · · Score: 1

    I have been a consultant for 6 years now and have run into many of these situations. Best thing you can do is make an alternate proposal but using their embedded vendors and their solutions available to them. Most companies will be open to ideas but they have reasons to go the route they are moving in. Take Micro$ofts licencing 6 and the atmosphere the company is in. They have to make a proposal with an intended solution. That is not easy in today's market place.
    That said, give them a solution that works for them and within their budjet and most times you will see they will move in that direction. Sometimes though, you will have to suck it up and go with the wrong solution. Just make sure your documentation is up to par and give them your phone number so when they realize they went the wrong way, you can make somemore money by helping them to the right way.
    HTH

  124. Citrix promises the world, but... by rmdyer · · Score: 1

    ...you get the moon instead. Run, run as fast as you can away from Citrix. They work very much like IBM. The Citrix system is setup such that they manage your setup and control the show, you are left with the bill, and what a large bill it is indeed. They even have people they send on site for making changes. If you want to be in control, if you want to manage your own network setup and configuration, stay away from Citrix.

    These were my opinions. Take them as you please.

    +2 cents contributed.

  125. It's the customer's project by xTMFWahoo · · Score: 1

    This is unfortunately true- I usually tell them yes but then make them fully aware of all the negatives that go along with saying yes.
    If after that if they say yes- they get it.

    --
    "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." Mark Twain.
  126. Consultants offer advice, they don't follow orders by SystematicPsycho · · Score: 1

    If a consultant is asked to take steps that he/she believes are going to impact negatively then the consultant should give clear _written advice suggesting why the steps should not be taken. If the company still persists then it's up to the consultant to consider if they should continue working there. Being desperate for work shouldn't immediately bring a professional to do desperate things.

    --
    Analytic & algebraic topology of locally Euclidean meterization of infinitely differentiable Riemmanian manifold
  127. My Rule Of Thumb by Gleef · · Score: 5, Insightful
    My rule of thumb for this is pretty similar whether I'm operating as a consultant, a contract programmer, or a just plain employee:
    • As a professional, you have a duty to inform your client (or employer) when they have made a bad decision, or are about to do something to their detriment, provided the decision directly relates to your scope of work. Obviously, this should be done with some tact and diplomacy, but this is part of professional ethics
    • You have no duty to force them to do the right thing. If you have informed them of their error and they persist, I suggest you make sure to inform them in writing, and make sure you save a copy the document you use to inform them and any response to this document. If they respond verbally, take notes at the time and save them with the file. File this on paper at home.
    • You have no duty to inform them of past mistakes. If a past mistake is getting in the way of your work, it is often more constructive to ignore the fact that their judgement was flawed in the past, and just point out the ways that your work changes things so that their system needs to change in X way (which incidentally will mitigate their prior bad decision).
    • You have no duty to inform them of a boneheaded decision outside of your scope of work. If you are hired solely to map out a network and program switches and routers accordingly, and you find out that half their users have blank passwords, that just isn't your problem. You don't have to get involved unless it touches on your scope of work. Note that a contractor usually has a much more limited scope than a salaried employee, so your mileage may vary on this point.
    • You do have a duty to complete your scope of work. If their decision prevents that, or even increases the risk of failure or schedule slippage, you have an obligation to tell them that, explicitly and in some detail. Again, file this document and their responses.
    • If you are a consultant or contract programmer, they have a duty to not violate their contract with you. If their decision violates the contract, you should tell them exactly how it does so. You might also want to tell them whether you would enforce the contract immediately, or reserve the right for later action, depending on the circumstances. File everything.
    • You have a duty to yourself to keep yourself healthy and safe. They have a duty to you to not work you harder than appropriate labor laws allow. If any of these are threatened by their decision, you have an obligation to inform them of this, explicitly and in some detail. Again, file all.
    • When you get home after finding out about a boneheaded decision is a perfect time for making sure your resume is up to date. Regardless of whether or not you intend to start hunting, it's always good to know it's up to date.
    • If their decision will make your employment less enjoyable, that is the time to consider pushing beyond the above. There are three main risks to pushing: pushing itself can make your job less enjoyable, pushing can lead to retaliation that makes your job less enjoyable, and pushing can lead to you losing your job (fired, or put in a position where you must quit). You must examine these risks, and the risks involved in doing nothing, and then you can decide if pushing is right for you in that situation. There's no hard and fast rule for whether or not to press an issue, and don't be surprised or offended if your coworkers make a different choice here than you do, their risks and tolerances are different.


    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, the above is not legal advice. Under some of the above scenarios, you should seriously consider retaining a lawyer
    --

    ----
    Open mind, insert foot.
    1. Re:My Rule Of Thumb by Gleef · · Score: 1

      One bit I almost forgot: If you manage other people, and the bad decision affects any of your people in any of the above ways, I would say you have an obligation to report the effect this decision will have on your people.

      --

      ----
      Open mind, insert foot.
    2. Re:My Rule Of Thumb by _ph1ux_ · · Score: 1

      man those are some beautiful poitns - but I have a couple of comments on these two:

      You have no duty to inform them of past mistakes. If a past mistake is getting in the way of your work, it is often more constructive to ignore the fact that their judgement was flawed in the past, and just point out the ways that your work changes things so that their system needs to change in X way (which incidentally will mitigate their prior bad decision).

      You have no duty to inform them of a boneheaded decision outside of your scope of work. If you are hired solely to map out a network and program switches and routers accordingly, and you find out that half their users have blank passwords, that just isn't your problem. You don't have to get involved unless it touches on your scope of work. Note that a contractor usually has a much more limited scope than a salaried employee, so your mileage may vary on this point


      Thee two comments seem mutually exclusive...

      but - what i want to say is that I really feel that you do in fact have a duty to inform your employer about things that are beneficial to their business workflow - but one thing that is not discussed is personal relationship and timeframe.

      Lets say that you work at a company for a month - and they had made some decision to have blank passwords for finance or some group - lets also say that you are on a tense deadline to get project X complete - maybe its not enogugh time to develope a relationship where you can tell them about things that may have a significant impact on their business in the future - but you can definitely make the suggestion in a leaving "post mortem" style eval of the project and your work with recommendations.

      but I would say that the longer you stay at a company - the more that pointing this stuff out becomes your duty - as a conscienctious archtect of their system you need to point out NOT bad decision making skills BUT "workflow patterns that conflict with the policy of keeping corporate assets secure".

      The thing is that ANY and EVERY good consultant should make concerted efforts to make the environments that they work in better - for evertyone.

      If I work with a company, and I am there to look at X part of their busniess workflow - i will specifically spend time looking at the whole picture and overall workflow of the company to determine how they all interrelate so as to find the most efficient method of connecting these business groups together - this will enable me to make much moire informed decisions in my design methods that jsut lookig at the internals of that business cell.

      think of it like OSPF network - if you know everything that happens in your area - but know nothing beyong your border connections then you can only make limited information path decisions - but if you really understand the relationship between your cell area and your border peers - then you can really make intelligent decisions on the flow of your business....

      too much sake at sushi... but you getthe point.

  128. My Thoughts by cfury · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I read through some of the comments here, and thought I'd put in my $0.02....

    First off, you have your integrity. If you see something wrong, you have a duty, more than your job, to mention it. Measure the response.

    Personally, ethics is a very important part of my job. I don't always win, and sometimes, I'm thought of as a troublemaker.

    That's not what I'm doing, though. I feel that whatever job you do, you should do it to the best of your ability....

    Abe Lincoln said it best... "Whatever you are, Be good at it..." (I paraphrase.)

    Be responsible, be good, and be right. In the same breath, also recognize when you are wrong.

    Don't be afraid to be wrong, and *don't afraid to take a chance to be right*. Nothing we do is certain.

    If we all give in and compromise our ethics, then what have we become? Worthless, in my humble opinion.

    Our country is built on people who take chances. Sometimes they succeed and sometimes they don't.... But they never know until they try.

    "Never give up, Never surrender!" -- to quote Galaxy Quest. This is not only a silly saying, but really a mantra that we all should aspire to.

    Otherwise, what are you trying to accomplish? Money? It's simply pretty paper. It will not last... And in the end you will be left empty, void and dead.

    Behave like individuals, and work well with others in teams.

    Okay, I'll step off my soapbox now. I hope you
    get what I'm trying to say...

    Chris
    Nothing in this life is certain, except for truth.

    1. Re:My Thoughts by cinder_bdt · · Score: 1

      Which country is "our" country?

  129. From Personal/Business Experience by linuxislandsucks · · Score: 1

    In my experience both as contract programmer and consultant it is no different in either case in that..

    If the project fails due to poor decision making in the managment layer over coding choices you will loose the project or temp job anyway..

    Its better in either case to hold a closed door meeting explaining everything then close with I reepects' management's final decison on this but will not return to the gig because I cannopt support the decision..

    --
    Don't Tread on OpenSource
  130. I was once in that situation too . . . by husker_man · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Let me lay out the scenario I was in, and then give you my advice:

    I was consulting for a medium sized ISP on the East Coast, managing their Unix servers, helping with their Sybase system, as well as keeping their web presence up. One day, the guy in charge of the HTML development decided that they wanted to stream audio and video from the site (it was associated with a newspaper, and had a radio station as a client). Well, they came up with an inflated number of streams that would need to be served simultaneously, and thus they wanted these expensive SGI boxes that were tops in serving streamin media.

    I did an analysis on their presentation, came up with more realistic numbers, and showed the manager that using a more mundane Unix server (a Sun box), they could easily get two Sun boxes for the price of one SGI box, and feed the streams that way. In addition, we had three flavors of Unix in house, and adding a fourth flavor would be exponentially harder to support.

    Manager took my advice, chose to go with the HTML guy's choice, and I got the grand job of getting these SGI boxes going. Well, I did, I got them going and kept them going. They never got the number of subscribers that they projected, and the project eventually got shut down.

    In short, let them know your points, but let them know that you're flexible and willing to work with them in any way that they want.

  131. Holy Shit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That was funny...

  132. Re:Some advice-exactly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A good consultant does the his best work regardless of the price. I for one, refuse to throttle my skills back to the level of money I am being paid. On all jobs at all times I do my best work. Anything less and not only have cheated the customer, but I have cheated myself. Anything less and I am typical arrogant fark that feels the 'owes' me something.

  133. The best solution! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This really works for me.

    I trash talk all the developers to the boss and berate the geeks until they are chump change in my pockets. Pasty looking dorks are easy pushovers. I then claim credit for key components of their work and ideas. Since Im kissing the boss'es ass and profess like im putting out fires, the boss always believe me.

    I move around a lot because it gives the impression that im on the go. The truth is that Im at the vending machines, outside smoking, or taking a nap in good old stall number 2. I actually only work for 3 hours a week.

    I love being a consultant. I just bounce from company to company like that, collecting various office supplies. The boss is always happy, and I have a ton of work lined up from my excellent feedback.

  134. There's a fortune cookie for this! by dido · · Score: 2, Funny

    However, a fortune cookie from the BSD Games Fortune Cookie files also goes:

    The Consultant's Curse:

    When the customer has beaten upon you long enough, give him what he asks for, instead of what he needs. This is very strong medicine, and is normally only required once.

    --
    Qu'on me donne six lignes écrites de la main du plus honnête homme, j'y trouverai de quoi le faire pendre.
  135. When to question? Always! by phillymjs · · Score: 1

    As a consultant, you're being paid to apply your knowledge and expertise to help your client. You're not being paid to blow sunshine up some PHB's ass or otherwise tell him/her what they want to hear.

    You should always ask questions, and ESPECIALLY if something gets your spider sense tingling and you feel like you might be the designated fall-taking chump in some situation where said PHB's might be likely to do some CYA moves.

    ~Philly

  136. be careful regarding your $.03 by DaedalusHKX · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You know... its good to be careful when dealing with upstarts... some of them upstarts from yesteryear you might recall...
    Dell,
    Microsoft,
    Apple...
    AOL?

    You remember them right? I hear they pay good money these days. It probably would have been good to have gotten on their good sides when they started out... be they good, evil or downright draconian and satanic in their practices... being in good with Microsoft will probably have paid good money period... especially with possible return business... And whether dells suck or they rock for you, I'm sure being on their good side and doing a great job when they started out and first needed to expand woulda put you on thier top notch list for later.

    "preferred contractor" I believe is the term used in the government. And I would know, I've done some work in construction for the gov't. Preferred contractors ALWAYS get the bids, unless an upstart can show absolutely better work for significantly less. Preferred contractors generally get that status doing ONE or two good major jobs or several smaller jobs. Once on that list you're guaranteed return work and even get return calls about upcoming jobs you might be able to perform. Even though our first contract with them was roughly a 10k project (and in construction for the gov't I'm sure you know 10k projects usually involve minute profits, barely worth the markup).

    Thus do NOT dis those little jobs, do them right and you'll get return work that might be more to your caliber in skills and pay.

    I've probably not done as much IT consulting as you, but I'm sure with your attitude it might explain why they're farming work to India. Even if those people's best often sucks, most of them try, so they can keep their jobs. Plus if the average programmer there is half as good as my mentor was during high school, I'd say we're doomed to lose all our jobs to be farmed out to India :) We're all about the money, they're all about staying alive... who do you think's gonna win that one?

    -DaedalusHKX

    PS - yep, I'm an unemployed programmer/networking geek... and guess what? I do office and construction work for a living... at least I'm in damn good shape thanks to lugging all that heavy crap around... how many OTHER geeks can claim that :)

    --
    " What luck for rulers that men do not think" - Adolf Hitler
  137. Consulting vs. Contracting by msobkow · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You are correct that a "contractor" is typically hired to do a specific task, while a "consultant" is expected to provide expertise and guidance. However, the difference between those two is mostly in the mind of the one doing the work.

    The general tone of the original article strikes me as argumentative and defensive. It is a consultant's job to offer options, advice, and approaches the client may not have considered. That information should not be presented as questioning the decisions of client management, but as an opportunity for the client to do things differently than they had planned.

    When you are presenting those alternatives, it is critical that you present not only your preferred solution, but options which you might not like. Provide the client management with the pros and cons of different approaches, and let them do their job: making the final decision.

    Remember that as a consultant you often do not have detailed information about enterprise licenses the client may have in place, knowledge of the corporate skillset, or even awareness of internal corporate directives.

    As an example of why you should leave the client to make the final decision, consider a favourite Slashdot topic: Linux vs. Microsoft solutions. While you might "know" that Linux is a more cost-effective solution than one from Microsoft, the client might also be considering existing skillsets of the internal staff, existing contracts with data center support providers, etc. It is far from unusual for the retraining costs for internal staff and the costs of renegotiating third-party support contracts to absolutely dwarf the cost savings on the software itself.

    Your job as a consultant is to advise, not dictate. If you have a good relationship with the client management, you might tactfully ask why they chose the solution they did, but you should not undercut their authority -- not if you want a long-term business relationship.

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
  138. this happens constantly for me. by sirshannon · · Score: 1

    I am hired to do a task, questions arise regarding related matters, I study the business and the question, I give them an educated decision, they decide that it is their company and they make the decisions and go with whatever thing they were already planning on.
    sometimes to serious detriment, sometimes I just shake my head in wonder...

  139. Morons, but that's life... by drenehtsral · · Score: 1

    Right now I'm a consultant, and my main (and pretty much only) client is a company writing financial software. They for the most part leave all the technical decisions to the software people (which means us), and that's alright. We build the servers, configure them, install them, write the code, maintain them, and really, so long as everything works they couldn't give a flying rat's ass how it was all put together.

    One exception is when it comes to infrastructure. This company is funded by some crusty "old guard" types, and they refuse to pay for data or services, and they make up a large enough bloc of the voting partners that they have some serious sway. Essentially we could order the moon in a box, and so long as it's a physical tangible thing, they'll approve it. Right now, however, we need data feeds (market data etc...) to be delivered to a new data center, and they are unwilling to spring for a comparably small expense (less than the cost of the hardware, and really the data are at the heart of the system, as always) because they don't feel that anything that can't be stacked in a warehouse could possibly have any value.

    As a consultant, it is important to me to get the job done right, because if it backfires (even though it was on account of their poor decisions), part of the blame will land on me, and it _is_ part of my job to call bullshit when the non-technical non computer literate management is about to do something that is either ignorant or just plain catostrophicly stupid.

    So I spoke up, and y'know what, they IGNORED me, so I talked to my coworkers, and my boss, and they all felt the same way, so we spoke up as a group, and they IGNORED us all! Why they hire technical consultants to ignore the advice they just payed for and do something stupid is beyond me. I would say fuck'em let them reap what they sew, but in this economy it's hard to find clients enough to keep a roof over one's head, and so I really want them to make it, but if they keep letting the Pointy Haired Bosses veto all our recommendations, they _will_ paint themselves into a corner and then we're screwed too.

    I guess the sum total of it all is, who knows, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

    --

    ---
    Play Six Pack Man. I
    1. Re:Morons, but that's life... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they've already made their decision, but they don't want to take responsibility for it. so they've hired you to agree with them and absorb the risk of the decision.

  140. Speak out to the client by PCeye · · Score: 1

    I believe a consultant should offer opinion even if it conflicts with client directives. A consultant has much experience in his field and can better assess any situation he was hired for than the client. It is the responsibility of the consultant to keep the client informed of issues that can adversely affect their project at hand. Ultimately the client decides what is the "correct" path for their organization - nothing personal.

    Life is not full of good news and accolades. A consultants job is to voice concerns related to their profession. At times, clients will not follow advise even if you attempt to derail their counterproductive train of thought - their choice, you performed your task responsibly and in the client's full interest. Not voicing concerns to the client is not only irresponsible, it is literally sleeping on the job.

    1. Re:Speak out to the client by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Not voicing concerns to the client is not only irresponsible, it is literally sleeping on the job.

      No. Literally sleeping on the job would be if you closed your eyes and went into an unconscious state while being paid. You mean *figuratively* sleeping on the job.

  141. You're just called a consultant by litewoheat · · Score: 1

    According to 99.99% of comapines that use contractors, you're just called a consultant, but in reality you're an expendable coder and probably worth less then pond scum for anything but coding . Nothing more...

  142. Litmus test for clients by theBOPfromH*LL · · Score: 1

    This actually has been a good litmus test for me to use. In the long run, any client who isn't able to listen to the options for solving his problem, isn't worth doing business with. Besides the frustration factor, if you are hired to implement bad decisions, inevitably, when things go wrong, you will be tainted with the failure and probably won't be getting any more business with that client. So I would advise to never just say "OK we'll do it THAT way" when you really know it's wrong. Instead, this is your signal to tactfully move on to another client, one whose business you can actually help.
    If I wanted to just fulfill someone's expectations in order to collect a paycheck, I'd still have a JOB!

  143. You missed one... by alienmole · · Score: 1

    The OP said "This tact has always been met warmly". Although that might be what he really meant, I think he actually meant to say "tactic", or perhaps "tack" (as in approach). No spelling checker will help with that one, though...

  144. Document everything.... by glaqua · · Score: 1
    Yeah, its CYA time, but by document, I mean that you need to keep a notebook, and write down what the issue was, and what you recommended and why.

    As a consultant, you are not part of the company, and you can in fact get sued for your efforts. Many places I have been at specifically brought in consultants for iffy projects, simply to be able to blame them when it goes wrong...

    At least with some handwritten notes, you have a better claim that you remember exactly what happened than the guy that doesn't

  145. wow is this perfect timing! by _ph1ux_ · · Score: 1

    I certainly have some IMHOs on this one.

    First of all I am involved in a very large campus design project - and i am the outside consultant for once. I also am going up against a very entrenched corporate culture - and new management who are trying to establish themselves within the company by making big influencial desicions.

    This makes for a rather volitile political environment as the entrenched culture who know exactly what they need and expect from an enterprise network - and the new managment who are looking to make some new innovations that will have major impact (hopefully good) at a low cost in order to impress the exec strata, go head-to-head to prove who has the bigger balls.

    and I get to try to help them play happily together.

    anyway - here is my take:

    1) speak if you know that you are not going to lose the contract if you voice totally perpendicular opinions.

    2) speak if you know that there is a general leaning toward looking in the direction you are trying to bring to light - although do it with a little bit more finesse and subtlety than 1.

    3) speak if you know that the path being looked at is going to be utter failure - although do it with a LOT more finesse and subtlety as 1 & 2.

    4) speak if you know that you have the ear of a person who has more internal influence than you do - but do it in a private meeting or lunch with that person, and make general non-polarizing "industry standard" and "best practices" type statements so as to get the person further on board to an idea shift without challenging entrenched thought directly.

    basically those are the path options to look for (with many many variations on them that only you can discern from the perspective of actually dealing with the client and the job)

    if you know what you are talking about - and you know that you are on a personal level with those that you work for, where you can openly oppose them without them being petty and taking it personally - then by all means make sure to tell them what they need to hear in order to make the right decision.

    the thing that is tough to tell when you are a contractor is when a person who is in a position of authority feels out of their league.

    THIS IS VERY VERY IMPORTANT!!!!

    if you are dealing with someone who knows that they are outclassed in knowledge or skill - yet they are a decision maker for the company, it can be very very bad or good for you and everyone else.

    A person like this will do one of two things:

    1) they will make a decision, or develop a vision, based on faulty and incomplete information - but they will stick to this plan TO THE DEATH to make sure that they DON'T come out in the "wrong" as they are fearful of losing their position, job etc...

    2) you will have a good rappoir (sp?) with them and they will attach themselves to your ideas and champion (read: parrot) them for you as they really dont have a clue wtf they are talking about - and are counting on their association with you to make them look good.

    obviously behavior pattern 2 is more benefuicial to you - but more often than not - behavior pattern 1 is what you will encounter. and this is mostly within larger companies and upper middle management (director level). (although if you look at it closely you will often find that pattern two happenes between two people IN the company - and then the express pattern 1 to outside and internal entities in a joint effort to make themselves sound as though they have a more solid voice - plus it gives them someone to blame in the event of a bad deciscion)

    there are ways around these people though. but it takes a little skill and understanding of the corporate mentality.

    in order to succeed when faced with a challeging intellectual barrier such as the one described in behavior 1 - you need to have the following tools on your belt;

    a great vocabulary - specifically a corporate/exec vocabulary

    some ass kissing skills

    a very tho

  146. Getting kicked off the project by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I asked my dad about this {and don't tell me to shut it because I'm just a stupid kid, I beg of you}, who's a consultant for Sogieti America. He just got kicked off a project he was managing at Primera Blue Cross for not doing exactly what they asked because he believed it wasn't in the best interest of the project. He said, though he'd like to have his job back as project manager, his position at Sogieti America could have been threatened if he had carried out the request and the worst, which was quite likely, had happened. I guess, consultants shouldn't compromise their knowledge to authority's whims. They've been hired for good reason, and the companies that pay them need realize that they know what they're doing.

    Fortunately, most consulting companies understand that the people they're getting hired by aren't always going to listen, so they aren't going to take your job if you don't. If my dad had sped up the project, forcing everyone to work overtime and shortening the beta-stage of development, the whole thing could have been horribly compromised. They kicked him off for not doing what he was told, but in the end it didn't cause him that much trouble. Two weeks later, he's already pitched to a new client for Sogieti America, no hard feelings from his company.

  147. Offer Options. by Adeptus_Luminati · · Score: 1

    Consultants are usually hired to solve existing problems. If what the customer is asking you to do is going to create new problems, then by simply going forward without saying a thing you are not doing your job.

    The best approach to solving a customer's problems is to offer them options, 3 or so is usually a good number. Prepare various scenarios which vary in terms of time, cost and quality and offer those 3 potential solutions for the customer to choose from. Try to be as unbiased as possible in also giving the possible outcomes of each of the 3 solutions. The decision should always be the customer's, you are mostly there to offer expert advice and direction in the form of options.

    You may not always like the decisions the customer makes, but you will have done your job as a consultant if you have offered them realistic options.

    --
    No trees were killed in the making of this post; however, many trillions of electrons were horribly inconvenienced.
  148. Other businesses... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Say you're a GP or pediatric doctor. Parent comes in, sick child. It appears they have a viral infection of some kind, flu or cold. You say, "your child has a viral infection. Give them tylenol or motrin for the fever and pain, make sure he gets lots of liquids, and let him relax." parent gets huffy and says, "that's it? I want some antibiotics, dammit!"
    What do you do?
    You know you're giving out something that will have 0 effect on the existing condition. You know that it will contribute to drug-resistant bacteria problems. Yet, a pissed off ex-customer is not a good thing as well, either.

    I remember as a kid going to the doctor with a sore throat, routinely getting my throat swabbed and strep throat being confirmed. Now, it pretty much is a "yeah, looks like strep", and an antibiotic prescription in hand, and you're gone.

    Or, in the Army, blowing out bags of yellow-green, pussy snot from my nose and being given an antihistamine.

  149. It Depends on Your Consulting Contract by shylock0 · · Score: 1
    I run a small consulting firm specializing in digital media technology. Oftentimes our clients have no technical expertise whatsoever. Here are some of my experiences, and the lessons I've learned.

    1) Document, document, document. A few years after we started up, we were sued by one of our first clients. The solution (software package) we eventually installed/provided them with was unsatisfactory, even though it wasn't the one we recommended -- it was the one they insisted on. When everbody else went to option B and the company making package they insisted on went out of business, they sued us. We didn't have the documentation to show that it wasn't the solution we reccommended, and so we were basically forced to settle out of court -- and upgrade them to the other software for next to nothing.

    2) Define the terms of your consulting contract as best you can. My firm has built up a solid enough reputation with our clients that we can generally dictate the terms of the consulting contract. We have become "complete solutions providers," which I believe to be the holy grail of any consulting firm. First, we work with the client to establish their needs, goals, and a budget. Then we dictate the solution for them. Our contract is built such that they have to buy what we recommend, or they don't get the installation help and the benefits of a support contract -- which they have already paid for.

    3) Our contract aren't (and haven't always been) that advantagous, and sometimes we don't get our way. Sometimes the CTOs brother works for Macromedia (when we normally recommend Adobe), or the CEO has had a terrible experience using Windows 2k, or Linux, or the Mac, or Sun, or IRIX, and won't spend a dime on any of those solutions -- which we normally reccommend. When this happens, we generally have a back-up solution, which we use as a bargaining chip. Sometimes, even, it's just arrogance on behalf of CTOs or CEOs: even though they hired us, they don't want to take EVERYTHING the know-it-all consultants suggest. Having the back-up will make it seem as if you are willing to compromise, and that you are sensitive to the needs of your client.

    4) Know thy client -- and let him know that you know him. If your client believes that you know his business as well as he does, your client will be much, much more likely to do what you suggest. As a general tip for people just starting as independent consultants: pick a niche business. This is a lesson I learned from my father, a small businessman. Pick a niche and know that niche perfectly. Know who your clients competitors are. Know all the possible solutions available in your field, so that when your client comes up with an alternative to what you've suggested, you can act expertly about it: oftentimes clients of mine will try to do their own research, come up with something that they think is better, and suggest it. If you've never heard of what they've found, it will make them suspicious. If you can show them you know all about their suggestion, it'll be much easier to convince them that you were right to begin with.

    5) Interpersonal skills. This is something that many my brightest employees completely lack. The most important thing in a consulting relationship is trust. Trust is much easier to establish if you can laugh with your client, take them to dinner, etc. While you shouldn't make it the number one priority in hiring, it helps to have a few people around with excellent interpersonal skills who radiate confidence and leadership without seeming arrogant. With this in mind, I highly, highly, highly reccommend ex-Marine, and to a slightly lesser extent, ex-Navy, Air Force, and Army officers. They know how to be humble to clients when necessary, but, as experienced leaders of men, they know how to gain a client's trust.

    So those are a few observations after many years in the trade.

    -Shylock

    Questions and comments are welcome and may indeed gain response. Flames will be ignored. Post responsibly.

    --
    Statistically speaking, there's a 99.998% chance that my IQ is higher than yours. Get over it.
  150. where are the jobs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I look, but i can not really find any jobs out there now. I have real good experience, and a couple Cisco certs. Anyone? Anyone? ideas? i like the whole AC thing too

  151. Why limit this to just consultants? by MO! · · Score: 1
    I had an experience years ago in a full time regular position. I was in the server design/admin group and a business group of the company bought a piece of crap transaction processing system without our review first. As a result, when the system began to severely buckle under the load they were throwing at it, the vendor advised us to drastically exceed the manufacturer's design specs to try and tweak performance. He should have been focusing on fixing his sloppy, unscalable application.

    During a conference call with the vendor in the CIO's office, with several other executives from the impacted business groups present, the vendor reiterated his idea. As the one stuck administering this horrendous system, everyone turned to me to see how soon I could implement the changes. I refused to do it, plain and simple. My direct manager said basically "you'll do it if I tell you to". My reply was "No, I won't do this. It exceeds the manufacturer's specs so far that it puts company data at great risk. You can fire me and have someone else do it, but it won't be me. I have an obligation to the shareholders of this company to protect their assets, including the data processed by this system, and I won't put that data at such a risk"

    After picking his jaw up off the floor, and everyone else reinserting their eyes into their skull, the CIO turned back towards the phone and said "Looks like we need a better solution!"

    I could have been easily fired on the spot, but instead the CIO was impressed with my courage and figured I had to have a solid point to be that bold. A few months later, the crappy system was replaced with a solution from another vendor that scaled to our requirements.

    --
    I AM, therefore I THINK!
  152. You gotta know when to hold em&know when to ru by MickDownUnder · · Score: 1

    A good technique I've found is to simply keep questioning a path till that person realises that they're unable to answer some pretty fundamental questions on this issue, at that point they're ready to listen.

    Sometimes though you're dealing with fundamental beliefs, in that case it may be that a person needs to live the mistake before those beliefs are altered. You can give advice and guidence, but there's only so much you can do, and you will come across those, that as much as you'd like to, they simply can't be helped.

    More often than not decisions are not so black and white, in that instance I believe you should give advice, and if that advice is not taken if you feel stronly about then let it be known you think it's a mistake. I think arguing is pointless and that you're best stopping before the point where the exchange of information stops the arguing starts.

    I think as a consultant you want to make sure that you're only involved with success stories. When you get to a point where you can see that a particular decision is likely to lead down a path that will result in failure, you're best off walking away.

  153. Not always so simple... by meckhert · · Score: 1

    I work as a consultant and its not always such an easy question to answer. The dynamics are completely different when you are on a team of consultants. Often times the people making many of the decisions are not the ones at the ground level doing the implementation work. This can lead to bad decisions or unrealistic implementation goals. The junior members of the consultant team can often point out problems to their seniors and hope that they take the action to fix the issues or admonish the client, but this doesn't always happen for a mixture of bureaucratic and deadline pressure. If the manager or senior staff decides that it would be too difficult or pointless to reopen a discussion around an already decided issue, there is little I can do about it. If I go to the client I make my team look uncoordinated, confused and risk angering my manager. Consultants are also expected to be high performance individuals, and so the expectation is that the job will be done quick. If the incentives in the contracts are written so that there is a huge time pressure, things get missed and corners will be cut. This is the nature of the business. As long as contracts and incentives continue to be structured this way, you can expect consultant firms to act in their own self-interest. Its economics in its lowest form.

  154. Phony "contractor" status? Call the IRS by Animats · · Score: 1
    Real contractors do a defined project for a defined amount of money. Someone who works on the employer's premises and takes direction and control from the employer is an employee.

    That's how US tax law works. The IRS has been cracking down on this, because employers use this to get out of paying taxes. Want to help them out? You can turn in employers by calling the IRS Tip Line at 1-800-829-0433. You get a cut of what they collect.

  155. I had this happen just recently and by PotatoHead · · Score: 1

    this is what I did.

    I asked them to clearly state their goals and budget one more time.

    Then, I did an honest cost analysis with their goals and current process in mind. This analysis was over a 2 year period. Shorter than that and you are not considering all costs. Go longer if it makes sense depending on the situation.

    Don't forget hidden soft costs. A quick example. A day of lost engineering department time could cost many times that in the downstream operations that follow. These numbers get big in a hurry and are often forgotten in your typical information systems analysis.

    In my case, I stood to make more if they made the foolish decision!

    Always present this stuff in writing. Always. Get another person you trust to sanity check it for you.

    So, I presented the written analysis with my option, theirs and one other potential path that occured to me as I was putting the project together. This was followed with a summary of my recommendations along with quick financial reasons why.

    Money talks, they did the right thing.

  156. Similar situation by junk · · Score: 1

    While working for a company, we had a really old RH (yes, I know, not my choice) machine that was used as our primary code repository. During my time as the SysAdmin, I proposed, on many occasions, things to make the machine more reliable. Due to certain circumstances, we couldn't upgrade a lot of things. After 3 years of service, the company started really went into the toilet and I was laid off.

    Three weeks later, they had broken the machine and couldn't fix it. So they hired me back as a conssultant to fix the machine and make it so it wouldn't happen again. At that point, my credibility shot up 100 fold and my opinion was finally taken as "expert." I had proven, in the past, my competence but the risks involved were deemed to great (even though I had proven the safety of the changes). Since I was an "expert," I was able to present my case and force the situation.

    I figure, if they're hiring out, because they can't do it themselves, your word should be next to the word of god (no, I'm not religious). Don't allow them to compromise your future credibility, by not pushing your case. If they force you to do something that you feel is wrong, it could come back to bite you in the arse. At the very least, push your case strongly and inform them that not accepting you as the "expert" means that you cannot be held liable.

  157. The only question a consultant should question is by archetypeone · · Score: 1

    Why did I not get paid last month?

  158. legal liability by sir_cello · · Score: 1


    As a 'consultant' you are considered to be an expert position and not 'in the office of the company' - which means that you have separate legal personality from the organisation, which means that you can be subject to legal action against you by another party - and you can't rest upon the organisation (i.e. vicarious liability) to indemnify you. You are probably not covered by the organisations liability insurance - as it is likely to extend to employees only, and not contractors or consultants. If you didn't know this already, I feel sorry for you. You may earn extra money being 'a consultant', but this is one of the downsides.

    This strongly suggests that it's in your best interests to act somewhat ethically and carefully to protect your professional interests. When it comes down to 'not agreeing with a decision' or 'doing somethign you don't agree with', you need to take each case on its merits.

    If you object for non objective reasons (e.g. "you like linux over BSD"), the best you can do is to refuse, and they may decide to terminate your contract. If you object for objective reasons (e.g. safety issues, bad design decisions, etc) then you could either leave without saying anything, or make your case known - if they decide to terminate you, I'm not sure what the circumstances are there - but at least you've made it clear that you don't agree with the situation. If you do take on the task, then you could be said to have agreed and therefore you could eventually be liable.

  159. Is a plumber a contractor or consultant? by hughk · · Score: 2, Interesting
    If I get a plumber to put some pipe-work in and I try to dictate how the work is done, the plumber is perfectly right to expülain to me that, for example, puting hot water through pvc is not a good idea. A plumber is regarded as a contractor but they can still say that your proposed solution is unworkable.

    If you have a sign-off on a project then if you aren't happy with something, you are within your rights not to sign. However, you had better have justification, i.e., not liking Microsoft isn't good enough.

    As a real consultant, you are paid for your opinion. The opinion you present is not the final decision, that is usually for the business to decide. I agree that you should present not only the recommendation but also your criteria and accept that you do not know the full picture (i.e., Steve Ballmer may sit on their board).

    --
    See my journal, I write things there
    1. Re:Is a plumber a contractor or consultant? by msobkow · · Score: 1

      That is an excellant example.

      If a plumber contracts with a housing company to work at a housing development, they can usually count on their client to have properly planned and designed the building, wiring, plumbing, etc. In that case, they are strictly contracting: doing a well-spec'd job.

      If a plumber works with an individual home owner to plumb a new bathroom being added to the basement, they're likely to be taking a "consultant" role and advise the home owner what their options are.

      As with developers, the plumber probably charges both clients roughly the same amount. The housing development might get a price break for the volume business, the same as a software consultant is likely to negotiate a slightly lower rate when settling a long-term contract. There is also the factor that the housing development is unlikely to hover and question everything the plumber is doing.

      --
      I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    2. Re:Is a plumber a contractor or consultant? by hughk · · Score: 1
      Even if the design was properly prepared, it often isn't by another plumber. A plumber is a specialist who knows about pipes, probably more than an architect or civil engineer. Even when they are being given direction by a 'responsible person' they are still supposed to check for and question mistakes.

      It is only in the special case of a plumber working under supervision of another that they can avoid responsibility.

      Lets get back to IT. If I work directly for a client, it is clear who has responsibility that my work is correct (ME!!!!). If I work through an agency, then the body shop has no ability to supervise my work other than to check the numbers on timesheets and invoices. If I work as an external through a consultancy company on a client's project, theoretically, the consultancy should take some responsibility for my work as it is presented to the client in their name rather than mine.

      These days, the distinction between an agency and a consultancy becomes blurred. Frequently, a consultancy has no permanent staff working on the client's project and they are there only in name.

      --
      See my journal, I write things there
  160. Customers are not IN my team by LinuxXPHybrid · · Score: 1

    Questioning with reason work in a team but not for customers. From what I understand, customers are not in my team. They play with my team, but not IN. When I question a customer, things go badly. Probably not always, but generally so.

    Having accepted the fact, I try to do the following whenever my customer wants to apply a lousy solution.

    1. Listen to what my customer is saying very carefully and find out what exactly I need to do to fulfill the requirement.

    2. Think hard and find out what I really need to do to solve the problem.

    3. Find a way to do 2 while I am fulfilling the requirement outlined in 1.

    Generally, (my) customers are not technically savvy, so they don't care or cannot understand what's really happening underneath the solution that I provide. But if you look closely, requirement is met and a good solution is applied at the same time. Doesn't work out like this always, but this is what I try to do.

  161. Well. *annoyed sigh* by Niet3sche · · Score: 1

    Read your professional group's standards. Like ACM. Or IEEE. Or ASME. Or so on. Read 'em, and follow 'em to AT LEAST the letter. If you're not prepared to do that, go puke up buzzwords and become a PHB.

    Case in point? The venerable Morton-Thiacol.

    Step 1: Eat bandwidth by posting this to /.
    Step 2: ?????
    Step 3: Ask, "what's ACM?"
    Step 4: PROF- ... oh, wait, the market sucks. Nevermind.

    Oh yeah - I'm just waiting for the cries of "Karma -254!". That's fine. If someone is a practicing software engineer (for example), ESPECIALLY if this involves mission-critical RTOS applications, they need to AT LEAST look at joining ACM and developing an internal moral compass. Maybe this is just part of a larger problem, though. *sigh*

  162. Semantic discussion by Simon+Brooke · · Score: 1

    OK,this whole discussion is just semantic, and it is happening because contract programmers like to call themselves 'software consultants' in the same way that garbage collectors like to call themselves sanitory engineers. If you're hired to hack a piece of code, you're a contract programmer. If you're hired to give advice, you're a consultant. Of course, in a lot of cases you're hired to do both. If you are being hired as a consultant - to give advice - then give advice. Give the best advice you can. Obviously, the client won't always follow your advice but if the client asks you to do something which you believe is against their best interests then give them, in writing, a report clearly explaining why it's the wrong thing to do and what you believe would be a better solution. And then, if they still want you to do it, do it as well as you can.

    --
    I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
  163. Slashdot readers = 1% ethical, 99% cowboys by freddled · · Score: 2, Insightful
    You guys are mostly cowboys, according to my simple survey of the responses here. Software Engineering will never be accepted as a professional discipline while this kind of debate leans towards 'yo, just take the money dude'. I note that some others have posted on the ethics issue.

    The BCS, IEEE and ACM all have codes of ethics. The response to this situation is clearly laid out.
    • If you are asked to do something that is not correct or not in the customer's interest, inform the customer.
    • If they do nothing about it, inform them of your objection in writing quoting the appropriate code of conduct/ethics and asking for a written response.
    • If they still do nothing, you walk away. Yes really.
    • If they tell you in writing to do the thing that you have objected to you must consider the consequences of the action that they have asked you to take.
    • If it is illegal or violates other clearly laid out ethical constraints, you walk away (yes really) otherwise its your call.

    Yes, I have done this at least three times. The first time, the customer backed off. The second time we got to the written response stage and the customer ultimately respected the professional approach. The third time, they wanted to break the law and I walked.

    It is possible to have an ethical career. Read 'Ethical Ambition' by Derrick Bell.
  164. Use Good Judgment by fuzzybunny · · Score: 1


    You are not just hired for your technical expertise, but also for your 'fresh' point of view on things. You should offer your way of seeing things, but within a few constraints:

    -Go through your project manager. You will inevitably have a 'handler' or stakeholder to whom you report. Your job is to make him look good. Do not go around or above him. Give him your honest assessment of a situation, or present it to a larger body if he prompts you to do so.

    -Create a paper trail. Ensure that your opinion is registered, via an email, or whatever, then leave it at that.

    -Don't push. Justify and defend your stance if prompted to do so; make sure your good arguments have been made to the person(s) who are responsible for choosing and representing them, and make sure that you support them if they choose to do so. Do not insist, advise.

    -Don't insist on credit. Let your superior take credit. If you're competent, it gets around. Do good work for someone, they look good. If the guy who hired and kept the consultant looks good, you look good. If he gets rid of you and the project tanks, he looks bad. Your reputation among your peers does not suffer from this.

    -Make people seek your opinion rather than foisting it on them. Given time, professionalism, competence and hard work, it will become clear to your peers and potential clients that you're good. The mark of a good consultant is that people come to you, not the other way around.

    -Set an example. This relates to the previous point. As a consultant, you should walk on water. You are called in to do the tasks the permies can't handle, and thus you should hold yourself to a higher standard of conduct and competence. Don't 'go native', but be professional with a degree of empathy for the client's needs.

    --
    Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage
  165. Similar Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I got a guy that likes to buy consumer grade junk they put on the endcaps at CompUSA (like the parallel port video capture device) and then pay me to get them working, I do the time-materials thing so if the crap that he want's doesn't work, I get paid to fix it.

    I have argued with him enough times to know hat he won't listen to me. I once ran behind him at the compusa taking stuff out of the cart when he wasn't looking.

  166. There is a revolutionary solution to this. by Hanno · · Score: 1

    It's called "common sense". Apply it, every now and then, it will work wonders.

    --

    ------------------
    You may like my a cappella music
  167. Why NOT to accept stock options by SWestrup · · Score: 1
    This problem doesn't just occur for consultants. A friend of mine has had a long standing rule about never accepting stocks or stock-options when he works for a company.


    His reasoning is simple: when he's a consultant, he always tells the boss when he's making a mistake, and precisely how its a mistake. Since he's a consultant, he's already set up the fee schedule in such a way that he doesn't care if he's summarily dropped from a project.


    When he's an employee and DOESN'T own part of the company, his reaction to bad management decisions is "I'm going on the record as saying this is a bad idea, but its YOUR money, if you want to throw it away."


    When he's a stockholder, he feels an obligation, as a stockholder to tell the boss "Not only is this a bad decision, but it will ultimately affect shareholder value. As a shareholder I feel it is not only my duty to oppose this decision to the full extent of my authority, but to let other shareholders know of it, and what adverse affects it will have on the company." Needless to say, this never goes over well.

    And, no he's not usually bound by NDA, since he knows about this scenario when he joins a company, and doesn't sign an NDA that prevents him, if a shareholder, from communicating with other shareholders.

  168. Depends... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    On whether or not the company you're assigned to is run by complete assholes. But if the company requires the services of a "fixer" that may well be the case.

  169. Cf Weinstein's 'Secrets of Consulting' (book) by ivi · · Score: 1


    This short book is loaded with tips... eg:

    "If they didn't hire you,
    don't solve their problem"

    "If you need the money, don't take the job"

    There's lots about this issue.

    Amazon has it & some successor texts...

  170. You say it like if this was self evident. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    WHich it clearly is not (I am using Citirx right now and have no idea what the differences may be).

    If you don't explain pros and cons I don't see why anybody should take your word at gospel value.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  171. RTFM by Butt · · Score: 1

    Or any book on consulting. It sounds like you need some professional guidance here. I particularly recommend Peter Block's Flawless Consulting. No affiliation, just a satisfied consultant.

  172. My $.02 by pysiek · · Score: 1

    Depends on your relationships with customer. Generally it is good to give advice but don't be surprised if they ignore you (especially if you give your advice for free - Weinberg's rule says that 'the more they pay, the more respect and better chance of implementation'). Additionally you have to remember of risk of spoiling your relationships. In my 15 years computer consulting experience, in most of the situations like this, there was always someone who has had his/her reputation on the stake. It takes great skill to be able to break bad new gently. And if you are really sinister (or business savvy), let them stumble and fix it afterward. For cash. In your situation I would give advice. Don't be surprised if they ignore it. Later you can fix it. For cash.

    --
    jcp
  173. CYA, but not too much by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1
    When you CYA make sure that you do it in some sort of trackable form. A phone call or face to face conversation can be denied or forgotten.

    This is, in principle, sound advice.

    OTOH, there's a certain kind of person who has two defining qualities.

    1. They're crap at their job.
    2. They constantly CTA and shift blame onto others.

    These people are no use to anyone.

    Everyone makes mistakes. In a good working environment, obviously everyone will try to minimize that, but it is accepted that it will happen. When it does, people will own up to their mistakes and try to put them right, and others will help them to do so if they can.

    In a bad working environment, full of blame culture and CYAing weasels, mistakes Just Don't Happen, and when they do it's always Someone Else's Fault. Strangely, such environments tend to be incredibly political, very uncomfortable for those working there, and far less productive in the long run.

    Now, a sure way to turn your office into the latter environment is to hire or keep too many CYAing weasels. A direct consequence of that is that writing too many CYAing e-mails and never accepting responsibility for things is a great way to run out of good people to work with real fast. So, CYA when it's justified and necessary, but not as an excuse to avoid taking responsibility for your own actions. It's morally right to act this way anyway, and in the long run, a reputation for having that kind of integrity is priceless.

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  174. Consultants... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've been a contract programmer for the past 12 years - I have absolutely no problem telling all my clients 'That's a bad idea and here's why it is' It's part of why the keep me around - I'm outside the political sphere (it ain't gonna affect my chance of promotion) so it enables to be to shoot at things other people won't. The higher ups expect it. I've seen way too many stupid decisions made to at least not voice my views - but - and this is a big but - you better make sure you know what you're talking about. I ALSO seen my huge share of moron consultants that think they know everything since they've been in the field for six months....Making a stand and being wrong can get you terminated........

  175. Consultings Value Add by glatiak · · Score: 1

    One problem with technology solutions at any level is the number of possible approaches. Without clear articulation of goals and success criteria, making 'right' choices is more a dispute of taste. The view from one perspective selects A, B, C as the 'right' things and A', B', C' as 'wrong' -- but change the viewpoint and the set composition changes. The benefit of experience that a client should be paying for when engaging a consultant is their understanding of the messy choices and ensure that the client makes the choices that are best for him. It is, as many posters have pointed out, the clients nickle we are spending. It is their problem and in the end the client must live with what is created. But it is always a delicate matter to suggest to a client that they might want to consider approaching the problem differently than originally conceived. THis can work if the benefits as expressed in the clients terms are greater than the original conception.

  176. Know the client. by jellomizer · · Score: 1

    The main trick is to know the client. Some of them are really easy going and will listen to your plans and think it out carefully. Others have a deep emotional tie to their setup and take critisim badly. (as well as you as a consultant to should be awair that you may get emotionally tied to your plan as well, and may need to step back and think clearly) For those dont take critism or want a known failed plan (Like turning on a relay on Sendmail on a linux box to prevent relays on a MS Exchange Box) you will have to be more careful and basicly nudge them in the right direction over time so he feels that he came up with the approprate answer himself. So he is happy that he thought of this better idea, you are happy because you can get your idea out. The people are paying you are happy because the job is done.
    But my basicly my main rule, is to keep calm and tell them "As a hired consultant on this project I would sugest if you alter you plan by x thus you may get a better y and in the long run you can save $ becuse of z." But if they still want they way go ahead and do it. Becuase you did your job as a consultant and you consulted them on what would be a better way of doing something. Its up to them to decide if it is better or not.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  177. Always and Never by NibbleAbit · · Score: 1
    If the decision is final, or outside the area you were hired for, you have to assume that the decision was made with information not available to you. In business, it often important to make a decision, even a bad one, rather than endlessly debating it. The exception, of course, is if the decision would break a law. Then you have duty to point this out and be prepared to walk away from the client and inform authorities if they continue.

    If the decision falls within the area you were hired for, then you have the duty to advise the company, in writing, why you think this is a bad decision. If the decision stands, then drop the issue and follow the decision. You have to assume that they know something that you don't.

    For contract programmers, it is the same. Your scope is much smaller, so the issues you can comment on are narrowed to program technique. Even program design would typically fall outside the realm of issues they want to hear from you on.

  178. Call me crazy... by armer · · Score: 1

    But if they hired you for your expertise, shouldn't you be expressing your opinion and ideas??

  179. Constultants sometimes are the only backbones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    in a company and this is why they are hired.
    Most government agencies and other large corps hire consultants, not only for their expertise but because internal management can not make or will not make tough decisions on their own. They need someone to blame. If all goes well, fine, the manager who approved your proposal wins, if it screws up, then it was the consultant. But if the manager has to put their neck on the line, a decision simply will not be made in any timely fashion in most cases where I have been employed.

    This is a consultants job. No single company is a career path for the consultant. Put it in writing, pros and cons and then let management decide what to do.

    1. Re:Constultants sometimes are the only backbones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >But if the manager has to put their neck on the line, a decision simply will not be made

      how the fuck do gutless, indecisive, dimwitted, half-wits always end up in positions of power? seriously.

  180. Here's the answer to your question by calethix · · Score: 1

    http://www.despair.com/consulting.html On a more serious note, why does it have to be consulting? I'm a full time employee and I'm asked to do stupid stuff all the time.

    1. Re:Here's the answer to your question by Queuetue · · Score: 1

      As an employee (especially if you affect the bottom dollar - because you are pivotal, or the company is small) you have a different responsability to make the organization a success, including a higher need to stick your neck on the line.

      I also feel this way when I get compensated in equity while consulting. I'm much pushier, because I have stake in the company's survival.

    2. Re:Here's the answer to your question by calethix · · Score: 1

      "As an employee (especially if you affect the bottom dollar - because you are pivotal, or the company is small) you have a different responsability to make the organization a success, including a higher need to stick your neck on the line."

      Why should I be more obligated to make the company a success than a half time consulting employee that makes twice as much as I do? Personally, I think you should do the right thing regardless of what kind of employee you are.

    3. Re:Here's the answer to your question by Queuetue · · Score: 1

      Because your immediate path to success is tied to the company's success, the consultants is not.

    4. Re:Here's the answer to your question by calethix · · Score: 1

      "Because your immediate path to success is tied to the company's success, the consultants is not."

      That's a bit of a broad generalization isn't it? What if I'm one of those people that has a 2 year plan or something where I'm only at my current job to get a couple years of experience so I can go elsewhere.

      Or in the case of my employer, what if the consultant isn't a typical contractor with a specific job that ends after a month. We have people considered temporary consultants that have been here 2 or 3 years doing ongoing maintenance work.

      Furthermore, if I'm a consultant and I do a shitty job for my employers, they're not going to be very interested in hiring me for other projects and won't have anything good to say if they're called for a reference check.

    5. Re:Here's the answer to your question by Queuetue · · Score: 1

      That's a bit of a broad generalization isn't it?

      No, it isnt. But thanks for trying.

  181. Make the attempt immediately. by Queuetue · · Score: 1

    Once I see an issue, I make the attempt to correct the situation immediately.

    If they are responsive, I help them draft a better plan - on the clock, of course. If they are unreceptive, I'll do anything they ask as long as it doesn't compromise my morals, doesn't open me up to legal or civil liability, and pays appropriately. It's thier money, thier time, and I'm doing the job for them.

    One thing I don't do is play the "told you so" game after they ignore my advice and it blows up on them.

    1. Re:Make the attempt immediately. by Kredal · · Score: 1

      Totally off topic, but I love your sig.

      --
      Whoever stated that signature sizes should be limited to one hundred and twenty characters can just go ahead and kiss my
  182. Sword-Falling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Thereis no doubt in my mind that personal-ethics must enter into this. Some years back I worked for a sensitive agency that was responsible for assembling, testing, controlling, and shipping software to worldwide locations. I was paid very well for this work. The software was MISSION-ESSENTIAL. In preparing for the latest release, I raised a red-flag regarding the test-results of some of the components that could in worst-case mean system-failure/loss of data/loss of connectivity/possible loss of life. I had MANY discussions with the release decision-authority. I was subsequently removed from the contract. The point is that I CHOSE not to just "let it go" and be part of releasing KNOWN bad components. I paid the price by being reassigned. They paid the price with intensive maintenance efforts to repair what NEVER should have shipped (all schedule-driven of course.) I'd do it again....but that is just me...your mileage may vary.

  183. know your role by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    if you are called a consultant then try at the beginning to establish whether you truly are a consultant. You are not a hired hand and you are a hired brain. If they are in a IT situation dictating implementation then you should ask why you are there as a consultant and not as a hired programmer.

    They should be professional enough to not waste your or their time with egotistical matches when the good of the business is at hand. A wise manager will eliminate those decision makers below him/her that do this.

  184. Educate your customer by pvera · · Score: 1

    The major role of the consultant these days falls along two major areas of responsibility:

    1. Do stuff.
    2. Advise on stuff.

    On the do stuff role, the consultant is brought into the picture due to many reasons, be it cost, skillset, whatever. You may need something done and nobody in house has the skills. Or you can bring a consultant to do the work for much less than what it costs you to keep this kind of talent on staff full time.

    On the advise role, the consultant is brought in to give decision makers an unbiased opinion about whatever. When I say unbiased I mean this person has no ties whatsoever to your organization and will be immune to things like current inhouse politics, legacy issues, etc. Because this person has a fresh mind he/she could care less of things like "that's not how we do things around here" or "if we had not fired Bob this would not be an issue." The consultant here gives the decision maker(s) choices and tries to justify them. The decision maker still has to make the decision itself and cannot blame the consultant.

    If you are in the do stuff role, your customer relies on you to actually generate some kind of output. If anything keeps you from providing this output then it is your responsibility to raise the issue (I hate to use PHB language but this is one of them yellow or red flags).

    On the other hand, if you are in the advisor role, your responsibility is to inform your customer of valid choices to deal with the problem at hand, but the customer is still the one that makes the decision itself.

    Or to hell with it, you can take Dogbert's approach. Consult is the combination of the words "con" and "insult." *You* figure it out.

    --
    Pedro
    ----
    The Insomniac Coder
  185. A Consultant's Job Requirements: by karlandtanya · · Score: 3, Interesting
    As an Engineering consultant for these past 7 years, my job usually requires me to do the following.

    Find out what the Client needs.

    Convince him that's what he wants.

    Convince him that it was his idea in the first place. (This is important. The Client is the smartest guy in the room--just ask him!)

    Deliver what the Client needs while meeting the requirements of budget, functionality, and schedule.

    Make sure the Client's looks like a f***ing genius in front of his bosses.

    None of these are optional. If the consultant fails to do any of the above, the consultant does not get invited back to do the next job!

    Having said that, I have the good fortune to work for a Client (for the past year and a half) who actually is the smartest guy in the room. If you ever have a Client who knows what he wants, lives in reality, and is committed to doing what is needed, cherish him! A Client with a full CNS (both a brain and a spine) is a rare jewel.

    Most clients will sit the consultant down and say "Please shoot me in the foot.". When they do this, the consultant must explain that "this is going to hurt; do you really want to do this?" If they insist, the most you can do is be ready with bandages.

    Some clients will ask you to shoot them in the head. By this, I mean doing things that will cause any safety concerns/violations or catastrophic financial consequences. Best you can do there is refuse to do the work.

    I happen to have the good fortune to work for a Consulting company where the President stands by such decisions. I (and the Engineers working for me) have had the rare occasion to tell a Client "No, we won't do that. "It's unsafe" or "the liability is too great". In every instance, the President has stood behind us.

    One final word: Pride. Forget about it. The Client is always right. There is nothing that will get you banned from the jobsite faster than embarassing the Client in front of his boss.

    --
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
  186. If you were so concerned about the company... by gatkinso · · Score: 1

    ...you wouldn't be a consultant.

    --
    I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
  187. Bottom Line: by Musashi+Miyamoto · · Score: 2, Informative

    The bottom line is that you should make your point clearly and ONLY ONCE. After you make your point, if they still wish to go forward with the "wrong" decision, do the work. Do NOT:

    - whine
    - drag your feet
    - try to convince them again

    Too many people try this and are a nightmare to work with. Unfortunately, this attitude is common in systems work, as many have the "everyone else is stupider than me" attitude. (e.g., Nick Burns, your company's computer guy)

  188. The blame game.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I work for a consulting company with a large contract for a school district. The district already has 3 full time admins that are more than capable of doing and implementing items. They also have the time to do it. Instead, they use our consulting company for one reason only (and they admit it off the record): In case something goes wrong, we are expendable...

    1- if something goes wrong, their have someone to point to that can be "fired" if it comes down to it... someone that can "save face" in case of a major problem.

    2- union pay/time/etc. Many changes require work to be done after hours/holidays for which the pay scale for a school disctrict worker is extremely high. The odd hours that can be sent to a consultant more than pays for themselves.

    1. Re:The blame game.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those sysadmins are UNION?

    2. Re:The blame game.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      many school districts have unions that cover admins as well... They are not covered becase thy are system admins, but because they work for the county/state/etc... and thus get certain union rights...

  189. Us Too! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm employed as a full time systems/security admin at a big e-com shop, and am CONSTANTLY forced to implement silly decisions... despite this, I'm also asked in meetings to vouch for the secure implementations of projects. Sadly, we're forced mostly to sneak our 'common sense' into projects while management isn't looking.

  190. I once read that there are 3 types of consultants by DarkCoffee · · Score: 2, Insightful

    * those you pay to justify what internal IT has done ($);
    * those you pay accomplish a task ($$);
    * those you pay to take the blame for something internal IT has done ($$$$$);

    Which are you?

    --
    -- Before you do anything you can't undo, always understand all the things you can't do once you've done it.
  191. Document it! by Jaywalk · · Score: 1
    There have been about fifty different ways of saying to object first, but to go along with it if management insists. That's really the only answer, but it leaves out the critical point of documenting it. Before going ahead, make sure of stating your point of view -- as clearly and diplomatically as you can -- in an email and send it off to your immediate supervisor. Don't send it off to all the head honcho's; it will look like you're going over your supervisor's head and make you enemies.

    The idea is to have a paper trail so you will not be the fall guy when problems occur.

    --
    ===== Murphy's Law is recursive. =====
  192. Surely this is about COURAGE not CONSULTANTS by mydigitalself · · Score: 1

    i can see this kind of thing outside of consulting too when senior architects "tell" developers that this is what they are doing and this is how it should be done and maybe its wrong... what do you say.

    i feel that one should always be courageous in situations where one feels there is a better solution, however, the one thing i've learned over here in the UK (was in SA) is tact. its about how you approach the questioning of the decision and ensure that you are working TOGETHER for a solution not against each orther for pride.

  193. Consultant or employee irrelevant by bblackfrog · · Score: 1

    ...the answer is the same. I've been a consulting software engineering since 1996. I've always taken the approach that the professional and moral obligations of a consultant are the same as those of an employee.

    The only differences between consultants and employees are:

    (a) consultants are paid more. This is why we consult.
    (b) consultants get older equipment. This is a bone thrown to lower paid employees.
    (c) consultants have a different contract, and a different tax withholding status.

    You should present your dilemma again, but this time leave out consultant vs. employee spin.

  194. Bangalore pragmatism. by presearch · · Score: 1

    Nice backhand. I'm neither unethical, a lackey, or both.
    A consultant also needs to be pragmatic. The 90's are over.

    The original poster stated the problem as: "(if not on a daily basis) asked to do something that isn't in the
    best interest of the company." The consultant is being asked to perform this action (probably)
    by an employee of the company. His boss hired him to make decisions that are good for
    the company, and so on up the chain to the head of the organization. It's assumed that the
    company has made good decisions to hire these people, who then made the decision to
    hire the consultant. The consultant is a guest, they are not the proxy CEO, no matter how
    smart they may be (or think they are). If there's a litany of bad decisions "on a daily basis"
    either the "ethical" consultant has already left, and the question is moot, or they make the
    best of the situation. By the nature of being a "consultant", or even an employee, if you are
    involved in solving a problem or performing a task, "questioning the decision" is the nature
    of work. You state your case, hopefully an informed one, supervision approves or disapproves,
    and the task is performed as requested. These decisions are not binary, if it's an informed decision, many
    factors must be weighed. The consultant, as a guest, probably does not have complete
    understanding of all of those factors. Most times, it's not just a technological problem, but
    also a political / temporal / financial one. If the supervisor assigns responsibility to an
    unqualified employee because it's his brother-in-law, or the cute girl in Dept. A, what can
    you do other than leave, and at that point, the question posed by the original poster is again, moot.

    A last point. Success, in any endeavor, is rare. That's why it's so cherished.
    Assuming that, the odds of making the "best" decision, especially in the long run is less than 80%,
    probably more like 50%. If the consultant is so good that they can hit above 80%, they
    should be working for themselves and doing a photo shoot for next month's cover of Fortune.

    Otherwise, fight the good fight, hold your water, and be glad to put food on the table because
    the next decision that the powers that be are considering is farming out the whole operation
    to Bangalore, and your next gig will be a year as an unpaid tester of monster.com's search engine.

  195. What I do by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I explain this policy to the customer when hired:

    If I think you're making a mistake, I will explain why -- once. I will not argue, I will simply make my case and let you decide. Then if you still want me to do it, I will do it.

    You'd be surprised how often they change their minds a half hour after you've stated your case and then gone to do as originally requested. Gets some of them to thinking about it.

  196. As a US Federal Government contractor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I always question tasks that do not appear to be in the best long term interest on the govt/tax payer. After I voice my concerns, I do as the customer/govt requests. Sometimes they listen, sometimes there are priorities that I am not aware.

  197. why is this even referred to as "work"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    most of the responses here pertain to how to coddle idiot decision makers and their image concerns. why do we even do to school for comp sci, or engineering? training in political science, acting, and child pyschology seems more appropriate.

  198. Should I go or should I stay now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Of all the clients I have has as a consultant 2 stand out in regard to this question. At the first they made a long succession of serious mistakes which I tried to prop up. But you can only do so much with bad data. In the end the project went live, but even today 4+ years later is not a happy system, and the users hate it. At the second I questioned everything, and tried to prod them towards the best solution for their needs. After about 3 months they asked me to leave. Neither system is entirely satisfactory today, but I have regrets about the first, even though I could not have fixed the problems, I still wonder if I could have done something different. I have no regrets about the second. I did what was right and frankly feel much better about it. If you are worried about money think about this. In some quarters MY NAME is probably still linked to the failure of the first client, but NOONE links me to the failure of the second. It is possible that one day I will fail in a bid for business because my involvement in the first project is remembered. I should have said NO.

  199. What I have always heard suggested... by jtwine · · Score: 1

    ...from a previous co-worker, friend and damn good developer/architect who we call Darth , you point out what you beleive to be the problem and/or failure of the proposed work and offer a corrected solution ONCE ONLY.

    If they take your advice, all the better for them. If not, then do it as they request.

    More than likely they will be needing help more in the future to fix it and to it "the right way". This means more $$$ for the consultant in the long run, and maybe the companies start to remember the reason the consultant was hired in the first place.

    --
    -=- James.
  200. better consultants should aim to correct this by uberR0ck · · Score: 1

    It matters on the intent of the effort and then how you would like to manage or measure the effort.

    Typically, you need a consultant when you are not sure what the tasks should be or you need some expertise that you do not have available. In your example, the lawyer is a consultant. You do not tell a lawyer, "Win my issue by performing these tasks." If you did, you would not really need a lawyer (if you do not have resources available, she becomes a contractor). Better consultants will seek to define the tasks and get approval in order to measure them and show success. It is not until you put those tasks down officially (in writing or otherwise) and obtain approvals that you become a contractor. Typically the scope of the consulting contract does not change when these tasks are captured, but this is essential to tell when certain efforts are complete enough since there is usually a limit (even if T&M -- it is just not explicit) to the consulting contract budget.

    On the other hand, you use a contractor when you know explicitly (as much as possible) what the tasks might be. The key is that the contractor work is readily measurable and the contract is generally over as soon as the tasks measure up. For example, "Does my plumbing work again?" or "Does this software entity meet the specified requirements?"

    Notice the distinction of intent and the detail of task specification.

    Completely agree about the typical interchange of the words, but to me, the distinction is clear. And yeah, it is mostly in the practitioner's head, but consultants should try to ensure the distinction is clear as well. I think it has a lot to do with how the effort should "look" upon completion by how you measure it.

    The trouble is when the owner of the contract does not understand the tasks and cannot measure them but insists on a contracting relationship. Again, I think the better consultants in the world should aim to correct the distinction.

  201. How much should you push? by Daimaou · · Score: 1

    I say it depends on a couple of things.

    First, are you the kind of consultant that was hired for your obvious command of certain knowledge and skills, or are you the kind of consultant that was hired as temporary help because the company doesn't want to pay you any benefits and your rank is somewhere near the same level as the janitor (either slightly above or slightly less, depending on whether or not the janitor is a full-time employee or a "consultant" too).

    If you are the former, then sure, you have been hired to educate them and help them to do things correctly. If not, shut up or you'll get fired.

    Even if you are of the first ilk, you should be careful. Most people don't like being told they are wrong and they may get rid of you for hurting their ego. Professional consulting is 90% successful and tactful negotiation and 10% actual work.

  202. Helping your client make informed decisions by dsplat · · Score: 1
    Especially if you are carefully to say "I can't do that job in that time for you this way" not "You are a dork"


    I have to agree on this. Diplomacy is always called for when dealing with clients. I've been on both sides of the fence on this one. I've been the consultant offering the advice and I've been the employee receiving it. The responsibility for the decision rests with the client unless it has been explicitly delegated to the consultant.

    However, the whole point of bringing in a consultant is to fill a need for specific expertise. In some cases, the need is for expert advice. In that case, the answer is unambiguous. You owe your client the best information and advice you can provide. Your client may disregard part or all of it, but that's a separate issue. In other cases, which fall more on the contract programmer side of the line, you are still there because you have the skills to do a job. If it didn't require some of your skills, you wouldn't be there. Summarize your advice to a level appropriate for the person you report to, but provide it.
    --
    The net will not be what we demand, but what we make it. Build it well.
  203. Know your Role... by CyNRG · · Score: 2, Insightful

    At the beginning of the assignment, you must determine if you are there to accomplish a goal or to prove the point of the hiring manager.

    During the interview phase determine if the assigment is "prove the manager's point", then decide to take the assigment or not.

    A consultant is paid for well thought out opinions based on facts. Document everything, and preface it with "in my opinion" either written or verbally.

    A consultant does real work also. Actual bit flipping.

    The difference between a consultant and contractor? About $60/hour.

  204. Re:You say it like if this was self evident. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Comes down to this: if you don't know, it doesn't matter. If you're in charge of the Citrix stuff, then you shouldn't be. The world doesn't have to explain things to you. If you can't be bothered to find out on your own, check out my taillights.

  205. there is a way, and i have done it. by LifesABeach · · Score: 0

    my job is what some rational people have defined as a "no-good, low-down, dirt-bag, software contractor". a harsh job title if there ever was one.

    my solution to doing the at best, 'questionable', task for a client? i call the f.b.i, and ask if the project is illegal. you'd be amased at the surprise responses one gets from our law inforcement. next, i call the local state d.a.'s office and ask the same question, 'which law am i breaking if i do task X'. once again i am surprized by a government agency that being used as an information source, NOT a 'come in with guns blazing' source. so far, everyone i've called has been more than willing to state the law.

    here's the cap stone; i now go and tell my findings to the tasker in question, and offer either a known legal way of doing business, or i say what the laws are that are being broken, and by whom has those laws been stated by. once again the tasker sees how to use the law enforcement community for advancing american business. i've lost several thousands of dollars in tasks that were 'routed' to others more capable. i'm not in jail, and its not my problem at that point.

  206. It goes both ways by royalblue_tom · · Score: 1

    ... like introduce you to other clients

    Who will also expect you to work for peanuts - these recomendations you don't want. ... collectively conspiring to charge

    Unlike the employers conspiring to pay a smaller amount. As an example, why does every employer want to know how much you were paid in your previous job? Yes, you don't have the *right* to always get the "First Class" wage, but the employers don't have the *right* to always employ you for the "Economy" wage - *that* is the market, and has been pointed out, if you do first class work, and charge economy fair for it, you *are* "ruining it for all".

    The market value is what the *market* is willing to pay, not just a particular participant in the market. So if the *market* predominantly pays $X, and you are providing the expected service, you should generally expect $X.

    If the "shut up and accept what's on offer" party get their way all the time, everyone but the board of directors will be on minimum wage, and we will have a new nobles and serfs society. And to think people fought long and hard to abolish slavery!

    1. Re:It goes both ways by GlassHeart · · Score: 1
      ... like introduce you to other clients Who will also expect you to work for peanuts - these recomendations you don't want.

      I fail to see the logic where one "cheap" client will necessarily refer you to another "cheap" client. I do see, however, how doing a lousy job will not get you any referrals.

      Unlike the employers conspiring to pay a smaller amount.

      You forget that these employers are in competition for your talents, which can only go to one company at a time. Similarly, consultants are in competition with each other for jobs. Buyers compete by raising prices, sellers compete by lowering prices.

      Do you have evidence of employers conspiring to lower labor costs? Over the past few years, we in fact have seen many employers offer benefits that literally cost more than the job is worth. Were you complaining then, or just now when the same system is tilted to the other side?

      if you do first class work, and charge economy fair for it, you *are* "ruining it for all".

      We are in utter disagreement here. There's nothing wrong with lowering prices to become more competitive.

      The market value is what the *market* is willing to pay, not just a particular participant in the market. So if the *market* predominantly pays $X, and you are providing the expected service, you should generally expect $X.

      Exactly, so walk away from the low paying job if you can. The fact that you can't find a high paying job doesn't excuse you from doing a good job at low wages.

      If the "shut up and accept what's on offer" party get their way all the time, everyone but the board of directors will be on minimum wage

      What are you even talking about? I'm saying:

      • If they don't pay you what you are willing to accept, walk away.
      • If you accept the offer, do a good job.
      • A big part of "doing a good job" as a consultant involves providing relevant information at the correct time.
      And to think people fought long and hard to abolish slavery!

      Which part of what I said sounds like slavery?

    2. Re:It goes both ways by royalblue_tom · · Score: 1

      I'm not touching the whole consultant/contractor argument with a twenty foot pole.

      > I fail to see the logic where one "cheap" client will necessarily refer you to another "cheap" client.

      Other way around - client recommends you to another client, who obviously does not expect to pay more than the recommending client.

      > employers conspiring to lower labor costs?

      And the reverse - where are consultants conspiring to raise rates? With the exception of the imploded dot coms, all other employers attempt to get "human resource" at the minimum they can get away with, and always have done.

      > There's nothing wrong with lowering prices to become more competitive.

      This is fine. Except that there is also nothing wrong with raising prices if you provide a superior service. Your view comes across (at least to me - I may be wrong) that no one should expect to be able to charge more than the average price. Trouble is, there needs to be some people working at above average price in order to have an average. If you typically provide superior work, you should expect to levy a better than average price for your services.

      But customers have different expectations about what that level is, and so price differentials occur. Remember the dilbertism - "What the customer wants is better products for free".

      > doing a good job at low wages.
      > doing a lousy job will not get you any referrals.

      My take on this was that the original poster was advocating not doing an *exceptional* job for minimum wages. Nobody I know likes doing overtime/weekends for no extra money - especially when the client pays you under the standard market rate. Is that being competitive, or is that being taken advantage of?

      Obviously, this comment will make no sense to those out there with the "what ever you get paid is the market rate" mentality.

    3. Re:It goes both ways by GlassHeart · · Score: 1
      client recommends you to another client, who obviously does not expect to pay more than the recommending client.

      Depends on the nature of the work.

      For example, if you do a simple web page for a client for $500, yes, expect to charge a similar rate for a referral to do pretty much the same thing. However, if you did a really good job, and the client knows that you're a C programmer as well, you might get referred to a C programming job on the basis of your attitude as well. [Web/C are examples, so substitute as appropriate.]

      Most importantly, if you do a mediocre job, don't expect miracles.

      where are consultants conspiring to raise rates?

      Try to follow the thread. Someone suggested earlier that:

      There is a market value for consultant work and people have to stick to it, otherwise cheap labor will ruin the industry for all of us.

      The person really meant "inherent value" and not "market value", because the very existence of "cheap labor" means that the market value is low. The person is talking about protecting this "inherent value" and "people have to stick to it". That's exactly like all the companies getting together and agreeing not to hire a web designer for more than $15/hr.

      all other employers attempt to get "human resource" at the minimum they can get away with, and always have done.

      There's nothing wrong with that, either. There's an entire website called pricewatch.com that lets you compare prices, and potentially pick the cheapest. You rely on market demand to maintain a price, and the government to prevent price-fixing.

      Except that there is also nothing wrong with raising prices if you provide a superior service. Your view comes across (at least to me - I may be wrong) that no one should expect to be able to charge more than the average price.

      That is not my view at all. Anybody is free to charge as highly as they can get paid. My objection is to setting an inherent value to your work, and not doing your job unless you're paid that special amount.

      My take on this was that the original poster was advocating not doing an *exceptional* job for minimum wages.

      That may be, but the specific act in question is whether to raise an issue about a potentially wrong way to do things. That's the central job of a consultant. We're really not talking about doing exceptionally well.

      this comment will make no sense to those out there with the "what ever you get paid is the market rate" mentality.

      The truth is, as usual, somewhere in between. The value of your time is not entirely and not always defined by a dollar amount that the market is willing to pay. On the other hand, obsessing about your old rate in down times, and doing a poor job because of it, will hurt everybody involved.

      What I'm advocating is to define your job output as a function of your personal ethics, and not as a function of pay. Then go that extra mile for a really good employer who will make it worth your while somehow.

  207. My take on this by ZWarrior · · Score: 1

    As a consultant, I have faced this many times. A customer pays me to come in and help them solve an issue. During the course of the work, I present them with the solution(s) and work with them to implement them. If, however, they choose to not go with my suggestions, but have me do the work, I will consider the best course of action.

    Is it worth it for me to gracefully turn down the offer to implement someone else's concept? Perhaps the other approach will work.

    If the solution(s) they choose to use are absolutely not going to help them, I will present my opinion and evidence in an organized, calm manner. If they still choose the path of destruction, then I will calmly, politely leave. I cannot afford to have my reputation associated with the poor decision. My presence there with most likely result in being associated with the poor decision.

    I have still stayed in certain circumstances just to help them pick up the pieces, because the higher ups understood my statements, and asked me too. Then it becomes my job to try and keep them from destroying things beyond recovery, and be the voice of reason, as well.

    My 2 cents.

    --
    Here I come to save the da... *thud*
    I gotta get me a shorter cape.
  208. Context by Buskaatt · · Score: 1

    I only got through the first 10 or so highest moderated comments, and I didn't read the article link (if there was one ... I have no clue), so take this as a typical /. comment. What little I did read seemed to take one thing for granted:

    that as a consultant, one knows the entire context of managers' decisions.

    This is probably untrue. Chances are, Consultant, you have no clue what's going on, or the full reason why you've been told to do something.

    If you do know the hiring company intimately, and you understand the inner workings that create such decisions, then maybe you can judge the quality of your orders.

  209. When Should a Consultant Question Decisions? by Buskaatt · · Score: 1

    Why, when you have all the answers, of course.

  210. Easy answer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    At least for me. I've had this happen a lot and generally I tell my clients that they can do what they want, but supposedly the reason that they hire me is to take advantage of my experience. I then explain why I think whatever they're going to do is a bad idea. If they still want to do it, I do it. If it's something that I feel might cause legal problems later, I make sure I have the directive in writing.

  211. Consultantitis by Paul+Johnson · · Score: 1
    A bit off topic, but...

    Every so often you see a company succumb to consultantitis. It breaks out in a rash of consultants. Mostly they are management consultants from one of the Big 4, but every so often you might find yourself in a gig like this, bought in to make a technical decision that the MBAs don't feel qualified to make. One big clue you are in this situation is when native managers are being squeezed out to give offices to all the consultants.

    First, any company that does this is on the way down. Make sure you get paid on time. You might give serious thought to shorting their stock too.

    Second, the reason that consultantitis happens is that every management consultant will automatically include more work for himself and his colleagues in his recommendations if it looks halfway reasonable. They also inculcate a feeling of FUD amongst native management, who feel that they cannot make a decision unless it has been blessed by a an all-knowing consultant.

    So if you find yourself in this situation scope out the local power structure carefully. The guy who is theoretically in charge of what you are doing may well be a puppet controlled by his consultant (think Grima Wormtongue).

    Once you know who really takes the decisions you can act accordingly.

    Paul.

    --
    You are lost in a twisty maze of little standards, all different.
  212. My observations after a few US companies. by lukme · · Score: 1

    In one company I had several bosses.

    Their was on boss who was technically competent, with whom I could argue literally for hours, and what all this did was make a better product.

    My second boss, I would point out things like it would make a more elegant design (ie, consum less memory, take less time, affect fewer modules, and better fit within the data structure) to change the design of one page as opposed to changing the design of the system. We wound up changing the system because it was less thought work for him.

    In another run in with the second boss, I showed that the data structure that he had worked out was NP-Complete and could not work for the data set we were anticipating. This guy just labled me as being sarcastic, and went ahead with his design, only to remove the NP-Complete part after a year of failing with that part. I was unprofessional and told him that I had told him as much a year ago.

    The third boss, just kept comming up with unimplementable notions of efficiency and wanted to program a panic button.

    My observaion, most bosses are like #2 and #3, however really special things happen with bosses like #1.

  213. As per the definition of the word... by phorm · · Score: 1

    Consult, and

    Consultant: One who gives expert or professional advice

    In other words, it's the consultant's job to give advice. If they're making a bad decision, it's your job to give them advice as to why it is bad, and/or alternate routes.
    If they still do not heed the advice... make sure you have something in writing and then your job is done.

  214. Re:Do what I did in the Marines... Continued by davesag · · Score: 1
    One of the executives may say:
    "Sir, we had a consultant a few months ago, he did some good work- Also, he saw this coming. Perhaps we should bring him back on to help us get out of this?"

    Company President replies:
    "Mr Jones, call that consultant. You can spend double the normal per consultant budget to get him in, we need this fixed NOW."

    and in the real world...

    woe betide the consultant hauled in at the last minute, lured by the promise of double the money to fix it fast. It's the equivalent of offering the taxi driver double the fare to get you to the airport in 10 mts.

    any decent consultant has read "the mythical man month" and "the peter principle" cover to cover and would not touch such a job with a 12 metre barge pole.

    sure there are people who will trott out the old "the customer is always right but they should pay for their arrogance" line but in truth you do yourself no favours by taking on jobs with unreasonable expectations, especially from a client who has refused to listen to you in the past.

    --
    I used to have a better sig than this, but I got tired of it
  215. you ain't at my company... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    as they are full of yes men who will blindly not just walk but SPRINT down paths of known error because they depend on the slicksters to clean it all up later. In the past week, I heard many times a variation of "you don't go argue with the customer" and yet when I stressed that "argue" is not the way but attempts to persuade were... no difference in response. Then again, these managers do not KNOW how to do anything but argue and slink around so perhaps they are just admitting they do not know how to be consultants and actually... consult. Sad thing is, many times they willfully distort facts and say, "the customer wants this specific thing (X) in this specific way (Y)" yet later you always find that the customer simply said, "I would like something that does this, along the lines of Y. Let me know what you recommend" However that would imply we have to actually apply our brains and work. So much easier to just blindly apply the suggestion and after being over budget and past the deliverable date by 6 times and with 20% of the functionality then that is still considered a quality job.

  216. GET IT IN WRITING by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    practice the unfortunate but true "most powerful TLA" in IT and... CYA. Ensure you spell out why there is a problem, what you disagree with, what your alternative plans are (helps if there are multiple) and associated short and long term costs estimates.

  217. Problem: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    you work for an organization that turns questions into statements of stupidity and incompetence and admitions of error as proof you should not be there.

    Result: besides the obvious low morale, productivity is nill and "quality" is a word and concept in another universe.

    Assessment: situation is setup for instant failure of individuals, the team and the project.

    Solution: Get out!

    This in response to the very good advise of:

    Be responsible, be good, and be right. In the same breath, also recognize when you are wrong.
    A profesional environment sees itself as a school of inspired students always seeking to learn and grow.
  218. [OT] Re:Im in this situation now.. by mabinogi · · Score: 1

    I know he said TightVNC, but even with the Tight encoding and the JPEG compression you still miss screen updates.

    TightVNC works quite well until you try something better, then you just can't go back.

    --
    Advanced users are users too!
  219. Tell the truth and get crucified by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Few people want to know the truth; even fewer want to hear it. People who tell the truth tend not to be very good politicians. (Yes I know... that is a tautology.)

    You simply would not believe the confrontations I've created by simply being honest to customers. As an honest person, you may be tempted to believe that "the facts speak for themselves." Well to you the enlightened nerd, perhaps they really do. You've become successful by knowing the truth.

    However the world is filled with clueless nontechnical idiots to whom the truth appears to be just some technoweenie's opinion which has created more work. Among the clueless are some brilliantly effective liars, some of whom are highly educated, very articulate, and command far too much authority for anyone's good.

    If you tell the truth long enough, you will eventually attract the attention of such a person... and when that happens, you have bought yourself some serious trouble professionally.

    If you're lucky, you might partner up with a good industrial politician (AKA "salesperson") who has at least half a technical wit. Then you can reveal "The Objective Truth" to this politician/salesperson (who will promptly forget the essence of it) but will nonetheless find tactful ways to reveal snippets of reality to your customer as needed.