Slashdot Mirror
Spammers Sue Anti-Spam Groups
SuperBanana writes "The Register reports in a story today that spammers have banded together under the name EmarketersAmerica.org to sue various anti-spam groups- days before a large conference on spam hosted by the FTC(which will be attended by many spammers). Anti-spam groups think the timing is not by coincidence, but believe the move may backfire because they will be able to countersue and get access to spammer's internal documents. By the way, if you're wondering who these guys are, check out Spamhaus's directory of top spammers."
"If these 180 were somehow spirited off internet - we'd be left with the Nigerians, and companies spamming by mistake. The spam problem would simply disappear," he said.
Wait a second. I hate spam as much as the next guy, but that kind of statement makes me cringe. What exactly is meant by "spirited off the internet?"
A programmer is a machine for converting coffee into code.
Here is what one of America's leading sports pundits has been writing:
Elliott Harris, Chicago Sun-Times: "A fan in Massachusetts, upset at Fox's decision to replace auto racing with Red Sox baseball, faces the possibility of a year in jail for sending more than 530,000 e-mails that shut down Fox's Web site in 2001. Hey, who knew a NASCAR fan would know spam was anything other than something to eat?"
Why do I h8 apple?
GREAT!!! nOw i know what organization to send the bill to for all this crap about giant penises wanting my credit card. PLus, now we all know where to forward our spam to!!! FANTASTIC!!!!
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
Good thinking, counter sue them into droping the case!
I'm going to sue you for sueing me for sueing you to sue me...
Imagine the lawer fees on that one!
"Some things have to be believed to be seen." - Ralph Hodgson
Not a big problem but somebody forgot to throw the http:// in front of the url
emarketersamerica.org
Damn, and I thought these guys were dirty bastards before!
Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
Why must they soil the good name of America by appending it to their dubious business?
eMarketersAmerica, more like eMarketersNigeria
Quick, anyone have any contact info for these people? I have penis enlargements to sell them!
KaZaA users suing the RIAA?
Drug users suing dealers?
Smokers suing tobacco compani.... Oh.
In Soviet Russia, beowulf clusters imagine YOU!
A list of mirrors of the text of the filing in flordia's court:
/.'ed would only make things worse:)
/ fe lstein/slapp.pdfn /slapp.pdfd fp ://jscript.dk/2003/4/slapp.pdfx .net/lxix/slapp.pdf/ slapp.pdfs lapp.pdf/ www.acornhosting.net/spam/slapp.pdfi ocenter.helsinki.fi/~atossava/spam/sl app.pdf/ www.dragonfur.org/peewee/slapp.pdfo cities.com/spammersarestupididioticm orons/slapp.pdf/ slapp.pdfp .pdf
h ttp://www.spamblocked.com/slapp.pdfe chhouse.org/~lou/slapp.pdf/ slapp.pdf
(Spread out which ones you use, these are alot of folks with home machines on DSL lines. Being
http://ares.penguinhosting.net/~leftreveggplant
http://chickenboner.com/felstei
http://cjllewellyn.homeip.net/slapp.p
http://home.earthlink.net/~bbay/slapp.pdf
htt
http://members.co
http://members.shaw.ca/wooly
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/egplant/
http://SteveSobol.com/slapp.pdf
http:/
http://www.b
http://www.conmicro.cx/slapp.pdf
http:/
http://www.ge
http://www.linxnet.com/misc/spam
http://www.north-lincolnshire.com/slap
http://www.pearlgates.net/nanae/slapp.pdf
http://www.t
http://www.tirani.net
There's also been some lively discussion on NANAE about this issue....
Assuming there are such, as it's currently being hit with a DoS. I think it's the first time a website has deserved a /.'ing.
Anyone want to take bets as to when the DoS attacks begin? Secondary action: how long after the DoS ends does the site end up being 0wnz0r3d?
:-)
Of course, for once, we'll see the Slashdot Effect put to good use.
blog |
I found out about this from a friend(Hi Scott!) after I submitted the article. He put it best:
"It is classic... misspellings, copy + paste problems...He named rediculous people as defendents, including the brother of one anti spammer, who apparently lives in Italy and doesn't care about spam at all."
http://chickenboner.com/felstein/slapp.pdf
Please help metamoderate.
a large conference on spam hosted by the FTC(which will be attended by many spammers)
Can we bomb them, Oh please can we bomb them ?
for the last time people, I am "frodo from middle eaRTH", not "middle eaST".
Do NOT register for the mailing list at www.emarketersamerica.org.
So, as a followup to this, from the SPAPHAUS website "90% of all spam received by Internet users in North America and Europe is sent by a hard-core group of only 180+ individuals"
It just goes to show how a few incredibly selfish individuals can bring chaos and ruin to society. It obviously does not take many to bring huge costs to business and government, so why is it so hard to prosecute these few individuals for abuse of the internet and indirect theft from business and government (taxpayer) coffers, especially if they are known?
Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
>Do NOT register for the mailing list at www.emarketersamerica.org.
Just kidding.
These days everybody and their dog has a lil website somewhere.
Let's say we ditched the email concept, and messaging just involved people going to eachothers websites and dropping a note via webform. To reply, you simply click the link back to the senders message webform etc...
Then to ensure we don't have web crawling bots auto submitting spam through the forms, you add a dynamically created GIF/jpeg file with a 5 letter code embedded that the subitter needs to type for the form to submit.
Then, problem solved no? Christ the email protocol we've been using for the last 20years is ready for the shitter in my opinion.
--Zuchini
Funny how they keep their address hidden in a Whois lookup. Perhaps they don't want to receive spam either...
Keeping courts busy with unnecessary and pointless lawsuits, thus blocking "real" and important cases and wasting resources is its own form of spam: judicial spam!
Prehaps they should treat it like most trade shows and get the Name + Addresses on the door. The someone could "accidently" leak the mailing list and then we could have anoth Alan Rasky slashdot effect :)
rus
Cheap UK and US VPS
The Spamhaus link already doesn't work (at least not for me, YMMV).
.... send more emails.
What's really amazing isn't that spammers continue to spam but that they continue to find people who are willing to pay them to do so. Have you ever read what an email marketer considers fair results? 2% of the emails you buy will be viewed (viewed meaning that someone actually generated an http request based on the HTML inside). How do they guarantee this? If they fall short, they will
This is an amazing comment on the ineffectiveness of spam. More than 98% of all spam messages are deleted unseen (or bounced). Of the remaining 2%, some of those were only "viewed" in the sense that they had active focus when the receiver hit delete. Of those that generate actual click-through, how many generate sales?
How stupid does someone have to be to buy an "email marketing campaign?" One could get better results by sending your $1000 to a local charity and putting out a press release.
Spam --- built on ignorance and stupidity.
I love it. I'm having Spam Spam Spam Spam Spam, Baked Beans, Spam Spam Spam and Spam.
Did you know that Spam is crazy tasty?
A history of Spam
Hoist Number One and Number Six.
Let's annouce this to the taliban
All the spammers at one big event, perfect target, haha!
Posting useless rant since 2003.
So what happens if you send an email to abuse@emarketersamerica.org ?
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
Spammers Sue Anti-Spam Groups....
Eh, wait a minute.
In other news: Eddy Marin appointed head of the Presidential Postal Commission...
blacklisting IP addresses of the plaintiffs, libel, invasion of privacy, the publication of allegedly false information and "intentionally interference with a contract".
Allright the blacklisting is allright because the user is requesting those sites to be blacklisted. Don't know about invasion of privacy (probably publishing the names and addresses), publication of false information (isn't that libel?). Finally "intentionally interference with a contract".(well at least it's spammer english:) there was never any contract in the first place and is just the user trying to avoid harassment. I'll be very surprised if this goes anywhere then again we may not have the whole story, remember the register isn't exactly an impartial newssource.
I stole this Sig
The marketers will demand that any judge who has been spammed recuse themselves.
Oops, I was wrong. A whois at their registrar brought up the results:
Registrant:
mark felstein
P.O.Box 667933
Pompano Beach, Florida 33066
United States
Registered through: Go Daddy Software (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: EMARKETERSAMERICA.ORG
Created on: 16-Jan-03
Expires on: 16-Jan-05
Last Updated on: 16-Jan-03
Administrative Contact:
felstein, mark mefels@aol.com
P.O.Box 667933
Pompano Beach, Florida 33066
United States
9542887575
Technical Contact:
felstein, mark mefels@aol.com
P.O.Box 667933
Pompano Beach, Florida 33066
United States
9542887575
Domain servers in listed order:
PARK3.SECURESERVER.NET
PARK4.SECURESERVER.NET
"If these 180 were somehow spirited off internet - we'd be left with the Nigerians, and companies spamming by mistake. The spam problem would simply disappear," he said.
So... who's got 1,800 feet of rope and an orchard to spare?
How DARE you sully the honorific "Bastard"!!!
/me scribles "Bastards and Spammers are diametrically opposed!!!" on his cluebat and impresses this on BWJones' forehead
Direct from Memorable Quotes from Alt.Sysadmin.Recovery:
LANGUAGE: You should only call someone a 'Bastard' if they are deserving of this honorific. Under no circumstances should the word be applied to someone who is neither ruthless nor clued. It *is* appropriate to encourage budding instances of this behaviour with the term of endearment "BOFHlet".
A LART of biblical proportions on you and your house! $DIETY, what is this world coming to???
Oh, and from the same page, a quote that fits in nicely as to what these spammers are doing:
Same to you, dipshit -- Coredump
Clue: You've got the appropriate amount of hostility for the Monastery, however you are metaphorically getting out of the safari jeep and kicking the lions. Guess what that means, mtepahorically?
conclusion: 2 points for gusto, minus several million for good sense
coonec
Soko
"Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm." - Anonymous
Can anyone find out where these guys live? Maybe we can help them out by signing them all up for a couple truck loads of mail like that sap Alan Ralsky..
which will be attended by many spammers
Now where's some of that Iraqi nerve agent when we need it?
"But actually trying to use m4 as a general-purpose langage would be deeply perverse" --ESR
Try the asshole attorney's supporting this case. Look at the bottom of the slapp.pdf file:
FELSTEIN & ASSOCIATES, P.A.
Attorneys for EMarketersAmerica.org, Inc.
555 South Federal Highway, Suite 450
Boca Raton, Florida 33432
(561) 367-7990 Phone
(561) 367-7980 Facsimile
mark@EMarketersAmerica.org
Mark E. Felstein, Esq.
FBN: 192139
I think we have a new address for every free cd offer, junk ad, and telemarketer list in the world.
My name is: Alan Ralsky
Address:
5016 Patrick Rd
West Bloomfield, MI 48322-1543
I REALLY NEED A PENIS ENLARGEMENT!!! PLEASE!!! I'll EVEN GIVE YOU MY CREDIT CARD NUMBER!!!!!
Get paid to code OSS
...a large conference on spam hosted by the FTC(which will be attended by many spammers).
So, the simple way to get rid of most spam is to bomb the building!
(Posting AC, so they don't find me)
make decks of playing cards with pictures of these guys and then do various things that I will not specify here for legal reasons to them after we find them. :)
Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
If you click on the link provided, you get the following message:
Dear Customer,
Please key in the password you see displayed to the right in order to obtain the information you requested from our WHOIS database.
In order to protect the privacy of our customers, Go Daddy Software has implemented a process that prevents unscrupulous spammers from running scripts that acquire email addresses from our WHOIS service (which in accordance with ICANN policy must be made available to the public). The password you see is provided in graphic format and cannot be read by a script. Only humans can read it. By taking a moment to key in the password you are doing your part to eliminate SPAM.
If I started sending out millions of spam emails using my ISP, then I'm certain I would be shutdown very quickly. So why don't they just unplug the worst offenders?
Eventually they will run out of aliases and addresses to use. But I suspect that the access providers make a lot of money from spam, probably providing a premium service to spammers much like the adult hosting business. Or maybe the access providers are just so big now that they just don't notice where the spam comes from? I doubt it though, if they were really losing money they would shut them down in a second.
Even if spam is not coming from your network, then networks could just not peer with networks that allow spammers to operate without discretion, ie those that send out unsolicited emails with false origination information or use brute force spamming techniques such as dictionary matching.
The worst spammers are akin to a DoS attack, which can be tracked down and stopped. This is basically the same thing. So why not just unplug the spammers one by one?
Or are they somehow smarter than us? Maybe these are genetically engineered super smart spammers that can anticipate our every move? No, its just the people that can deny them access aren't motivated enough.
Oh wait, that's the case here too... Nevermind.
microsoft sues software testing advocacy group...
Schrodinger's cat is either dead or really pissed off...
How else would Ralsky and company have nice new houses? Because they can send out millions of emails so much cheaper than snail-mail, that even with the low percentage of returns you come out ahead. It's like door-to-door sales, it doesn't matter if you have 99 door slammed if number 100 wants to buy the Deluxe Package.
As it has been said "there's a sucker born every minute" and no matter how you think NOBODY could fall for the Nigerian scam, enough people continue to do so that it's still a good source of money. Witness the 59-year-old lady recently who embezzled 2.1 million from her law firm (California) to set up for her Nigerian windfall.
Quoting the media, I say this would be a perfect time for a 'decapitation strike' against spam.
Legal threats and morality have no effect on these people, let's see what watching a bit of bloodshed first-hand does...
Think about this the next time you advocate centralizing the Net (in terms of SMTP) on large ISPs in order to "solve" the problem of residental users spewing spam (directly or by relay).
The residential users are annoying because there are so many of them, but if, 10 years from now, the only way you can send mail is to relay through a large ISP's mail servers... who do you think said ISP's best business partners will be?
For an answer to that question look to the US Postal Service's largest customers: The US Federal Government and bulk mailers.
THAT is exactly the business niche that spammers are evolving into. All they need is for users to have slightly less choice and ISPs to have slightly more power to tell their users how the Internet works rather than the other way around.
Push to keep the Internet a network of peers while establishing a system of identity, trust and responsibility (which should in turn also by non-centralized, but rooted on an arbitrary number of certificate authorities and trust databases), and you will do yourself and the rest of the world a large favor!
It also seek damages of $75 million (plus interest and costs) against the defendants on five separate counts: blacklisting IP addresses of the plaintiffs, libel, invasion of privacy, the publication of allegedly false information and "intentionally interference with a contract".
.
1) Blacklisting is not a crime. One does not have to accept email from everyone if they don't want to. It is a courtesy, not a right.
2) Libel? Bwahahahahaha! Sorry, couldn't contain myself. Anyway, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. .
3) Invasion of privacy? You mean like you invade our email boxes every day?
4) Kinda like you folks do promising huge male organs or enlarged tatas knowing full well none of your products or services will work.
5) What contract? I never agreed, verbally or otherwise, to receive email from any of you contrary to your vehement claims to the contrary.
While we're on the subject, if you are such legitimate people selling legitimate products and services, why do you find it necessary to put misleading subject lines in your email, spoof your email headers and use open relays to send your spam? One would think that fine, upstanding businesses as yours wouldn't need to resort to such actions.
Can I pleeeeeease join this lawsuit? Please? Pretty please? I promise I won't bankrupt all of you. I'll just take half of what each of you and your businesses are worth.
This reminds me of the lawsuits robbers file against homeowners who kicked their arse for breaking in.
How do you think most of those forms forward the information to the recipients? 9 times out of 10, it's by sendmail.
And this got modded up?
This completely cuts out some of the actual usefulness of the current mail system.
... there are blind users who use email. In order for them to use email, you'd need some sort of software that could extract the code from the image. If you have that, then you have the ability for spammers to still send you unsolicited info.
I can compose an email on my Palm if I want to - without an internet connection and have it automatically send once it is connected.
As for the GIF/JPEG thing
--
Not that the system for email can't stand revision, but making email into the web would be a step back.
Here is what I found at http://www.EmarketersAmerica.org
Man, they must be serious
Everyone should contact Go Daddy and protest them hosting this site and aiding terrorists (well, they terrorize my mail box every day!!!)
You better watch out emarketers
Turn the ships around, we have a serious battle to fight on the home front. Homeland security is now at red
-- "W"
HallmarkOrnaments.Com
All those spammers in one place. Now is a good time to test the new MOAB bomb again.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
But...
It's not that simple. The same laws that govern one thing cannot always be easily applied to other things. Things aren't so black and white. Think of it like "hackers". A "hacker" goes to prison longer than, someone who does, what we consider, a worse crime.
The internet and computers are a new realm. There is very little that is tangible, other than the hardware and the electricity.
This might pan out nicely.. but that's why we fight the DMCA and support anti-spammer laws, right? Because our laws have to change.
-
ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only
Okay, I read the first few pages of the lawsuit, and then I couldnt stomach the legalese anymore... I'm not a lawyer, after all...
anyway, the way it sounds is that they are being sued because they sell products/list information that people use to stop the flow of "crap" from these companies. From what I read, they didnt attack these companies, they didnt DoS them, they merely provided tools that people could use to stop spammers from contacting them.
The people that are using these tools probably never would have purchased anything from them anyway, and if they are like most of us, the emails are blocked/auto deleted/instantly trashed when they do get through, so its a moot point anyway.
I think these people are just ticked off because their scummy business is being threatened by people who are intelligent enough to "work the internet", not just "use" it.
thats just my thoughts, I could be wrong...
This is my sig. Its pathetic.
What exactly could they counter-sue for now, that they couldn't have sued for beforehand? Wrongful prosecution doesn't fit, since this is not a criminal case. I honestly can't think of anything that they couldn't have already sued for, which indicates that either the anti-spammers don't really have a case for a counter-suit, or they never bothered to take it to legal action in the past.
Here's the full dope on Eddy Marin, spammer, and why South Florida (especially Boca Raton) is now a haven for spammers.
r es s&searchString=209.203.192.0%2F19
Eddy uses a front company, "PG&C Leasing Inc." (aka lauderdale.net) to disguise his activity. This company buys the bandwidth for him to spam through. He then sets up dummy companies to act as "customers" of PG&C. If the heat gets too hot he'll "terminate" a "customer". Of course the spam just continues under another name.
He's operated like this since 1998. He's had a long time to develope a reputation among his spamming pals, and since he brings money into the local economy, Boca Raton loves him.
Here's just ONE of his netblocks:
http://www.senderbase.com/search?searchBy=ipadd
The bulk of the spam from that netblock is from "OmniPoint Marketing". If you've been paying good attention. Spam also goes out from "justdous.com, prefersavings.com, dealstwoyou.com, and tlck.net". These are registered to things like "M.M.COMMERCE,INC", and "OptIn LLC" (which is Terry Williams, another Eddy Marin flunkie)
stealthemail.com ??? Give me a break!
--Og
The whois lookup does return the address of Spamboy's lawyer, and his email address:
Registrant:
mark felstein
P.O.Box 667933
Pompano Beach, Florida 33066
United States
Registered through: Go Daddy Software (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: EMARKETERSAMERICA.ORG
Created on: 16-Jan-03
Expires on: 16-Jan-05
Last Updated on: 16-Jan-03
Administrative Contact:
felstein, mark mefels@aol.com
P.O.Box 667933
Pompano Beach, Florida 33066
United States
9542887575 Fax --
Technical Contact:
felstein, mark mefels@aol.com
P.O.Box 667933
Pompano Beach, Florida 33066
United States
9542887575 Fax --
Domain servers in listed order:
PARK3.SECURESERVER.NET
PARK4.SECURESERVER.NET
It wouldn't be TOO difficult to defeat that system either!
and after I did, I could spam the spammer's web pages, offering it to them at an unbelievable discount!!!
HallmarkOrnaments.Com
Spam exists because it is profitable. If we each dedicate just ten minutes a day to order free product literature, tie up spammer's toll-free numbers, or even order a spammer's product on behalf of another spammer, we can cause spam to become unprofitable.
Drifted off-topic to talk about the current White House Administration?
EmarketsAmerica.org is run by an incompetent baffoon as a front to some of the sleaziest spammers in existance.
They've been harrassing the people named in the lawsuit for months, if not years now, and this is just their latest method of doing so.
What's disturbing about this harrassment in particular, is that they're using tax payers' money by abusing the US courts as a means to go after their arch-enemies, the anti-spammers.
The actual filing papers can be found from a mirror (PDF file).
Read it, and have a wonderful belly laugh over it. It's so insanely inaccurate, rambling and straightout kooky that no judge is going to take it seriously.
Proletariat of the world, unite to kill spammers. Remember to shoot the knees first, so that they can't run away while you slowly torture them to death.
In Soviet Russia, I ruled you
Hmmm.. the addresses that display in the registrar information are P.O. boxes. I could have sworn that in order to keep your domain, you are required to enter a legitimate address to a physical location, not a P.O. box. Anybody want to challenge the domain name?
I find it vaguely amusing that the complaint accuses Spews and Spamhaus of interrupting and blocking "the internet traffic of lawful businesses and individuals."
Name one.
By preference, one that complied with each and every one of the various anti-spam laws in the US. Anyone on the plaintiff's side of the case who did not abide by those laws should be jailed for perjury, I think...
And some of the complaint-items worthy of particular derision:
4: Failure to provide proper and correct addresses to the public for Spews and Spamhaus. Pot calling the kettle black here, maybe? Just a bit?
21: If the IP-addresses and servers in question were your property at the time, all you have to do is prove it. Though I doubt that the business practises were legal anyway...
23: So? So have I. But they didn't block you; they put you on a list that individuals and ISP's used (and trusted) to block you. Sue all of the ISPs that use that list. Dare ya!
32: How many Americans will become unemployed? The owner/operators of the individual spam-companies? Boo hoo!
39: Oh? Really?
Internet Explorer was unable to link to the Web page you requested. The page might use standard HTML or CSS.
Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf (the Iraqi Minister of Information) must be alive for statements like this, "Plaintiff will suffer irreparable harm to its business reputation and loss of its good will, unless the status quo is maintained. Should the Defendants, be allowed to continue their assault upon the Plaintiff and the Plaintiff's industry, the Plaintiff's industry will cease to exist. This will cause more Americans to become unemployed." but then desires a permanent injunction again the defendants, which would cause more Americans to become unemployed as well, but that's not stated.
how the hell did they get a .org??? they are clearly commercial!!
I don't. My parents don't. All but one of my friends doesn't. I believe you overestimate the technical ability of the average person. There are people out there that aren't particularly computer-savvy. AOL exists for a reason. Hell, WebTV exists for a reason.
Furthermore, I suspect that your suggestion would be all but unworkable in a business environment.
All you've done is now replaced an email client with a web browser. The fundamentals are the same. So the email address has been replaced by the URL of this webform. Big deal.
Perhaps you've heard of Optical Character Recognition?
Spamassassin running: Check
:0:
Add the following to ~/.procmailrc: Check
* ^Subject.*\[SPAM\]
! webmaster@emarketersamerica.org
Justice Served: Check
Now, to get taco to do the same so he'd stop complaining about the spam he gets....
LOL OWNZORED
We know which companies sell their email listings, right?
More than a few of us can write a script...
A clandestine server running in an undisclosed location--perhaps a public wireless hotspot--can go forever properly filling out the forms of these companies with complete and total gibberish.
It won't crash servers... nobody will even know until it's pretty much too late and the offended databases are loaded with utter garbage.
Recently, I wrote about passively doing this to spambots. I keep the page on the server for good measure.
My tech articles are geared to a nontech audience so don't give me crap if they sound lame. I don't preach to the choir except when hanging out at Slashdot.
That said, I don't see why this concept can't be expanded. They have no defense against form scripts.
Laws are for people with no friends.
Sounds like a good idea, but how do you CC someone? What about mailing lists?
Create/use a protection system to prevent spam and protect your mailbox, then claim a dmca violation against the spammers for bypassing your protection device.
courts these days have allowed shakier cases to stand, and you can't lose. either you hit the spammer hard, or the dmca loses.
sounds like a plan to me. at least until we can get fish and game departments to issue spammer tags. how much would you pay to bag a spammer?
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers. Shakespeare, Henry VI, Part 2, Act 4, Scene 2
Wonder if they will be able to file for unemployment? Guess I won't be sending them my resume any time soon...
...burglars sue police and neighbourhood watch schemes citing stress and cause of lack of earnings.
Jeez. Words can't express my contempt. Do the people in the legal system even now what this is all about...? I hate to sound trollish, but it really seems that half of the legal world has NO CLUE about technology.
Disclaimer: I'm a computer consultant for lawyers.
Moderation Total: -1 Troll, +3 Goat
Well, we should protect his privacy, and not post his email then. Please don't post this link anywhere.
mefels@aol.com
Irene KHAAAAAAN!
Did anyone do a lookup of the whois data? You can find his email address and a (blech!) PO Box.
I have seen implementations of the coded msg hidden in a gif that make it next to impossible for optical character recognition to work.
You can use visual effects that only make it readable to the human eye.
And "now replaced an email client with a web browser" is pretty much all it takes to do away with spam. You don't have to tell me the obvious.
That would be the best anti-spam defense. Very few citizens would side with spammers.
Chaos and ruin? I hate spam. Hate it a lot. But isn't "chaos and ruin" a bit much? ;) I mean, it's not like they're running around covering poorly lit walkways with banana peels. Now that would cause some serious chaos and maybe even a good measure of ruin!!
bad sig...no donut.
I work with character recognition software all the time. It does work very well for clearly written characters - however if the characters were intentionally distorted in unpredictable ways it would be very hard for any character recognition software to accurately identify characters. The author of the original idea of this post said that each person would use their own website as the communication medium. With all the varied was of implementing this there would be no way to predict the location of the 5 digit or whatever string let-alone read it. One more thing - why are you working on character recognition software anyway? Isn't there enough of it in the world now? why don't you work on improving existing recognition algorithms.
Conserve Oil, Recycle, Boycott Walmart
about the number of people out there who actually believe some of the spam they get - if no one bothered with spam and the advertisers realized that they were wasting their money and that no one paid any attention to their messages, it would all stop! wouldn't it?
The big problem is that, of course, the big ISPs also have to support the messages coming in. Also, when email becomes practically useless due to spam, it's not a particularly good business model.
Remember, spammers don't pay for bandwidth etc involved in receiving emails. And the often don't pay for sending either, as they used hacked servers, etc. Even if the US made a move towards a more centralized network, there are lots of other countries where hack-and-spam would still be prevalent...
good work asspussy!
Technology will improve and it will be less likely that peoples PDAs will not be connected.
:)
As soon as you introduce some form of "auto-messaging", then you have opened the door to spam.
That little extra bit of human work is what it takes to solve the problem... a lot better than all the money and bandwidth wasted on spam.
And I say fuck the blind, let them use the phone
--Zuchini
P.S. My apologies if you're blind.
They just bring the money to other places. Those huge costs you speak of go into new businesses that make anti-spam software.
Posting useless rant since 2003.
So how will they defend their methods? I have blocked several spammers in the firewall because they tried to abuse my system.
:))
I have several logs of spammers sending thousands mails to non-existing users using dictonary attacks.
Also a few on UUNET/worldcom have tried just last month to use my Apache as a proxy/CONNECT relay to route connection to remote mail servers though my server(seems that a certain mix of apache and PHP causes error messages that can lead one to think that I have a proxy running with CONNECT enabled).
So not only did I get a bunch of directory attacks on my mail server, the webserver also got thousands of hits every day with CONNECT attempts. So I complained to their provider blocked their entire subnet in my firewall. About 2 days after 80% of the HTTP attempts stopped(according to my firewall log) only to be followed by a few attempts from their net to connect to a MS/SQL server which I don't have.
Furthermore I created a new email alias just for sending the complaint, and yeay, now my _deleted_ alias gets alot of spam, most of it gets blocked by spam blocks.
I should not be hard to find enough material to show just why people choose NOT to talk to everybody on the net. And it IS the individual admin/user who chooses to block networks using antispam lists not the antispam lists forcing it upon anyone. I don't believe that just because I have services on the internet(mail,http etc) that it means that I must make those services available to anyone.
So they can fight it all they want, I have plenty of work to do without having to clean up after spammers trying to abuse my systems. And I will continue to block subnets in my firewall and in the firewalls of my clients(I always ask, should I do it now, or when you start getting spam
my sig
conference on spam hosted by the FTC(which will be attended by many spammers)
:)
Somebody please post a "How to make your own railgun" story.
Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realise I was supposed to outline my entire protocol idea in my slashdot post. What was I thinking.... maybe you'd like some perl code too?
:) Christ, that'll be the next hurdle once we abolish spam.
...sad..sad...
A cc I imagine would work by giving the cc line a list of webforms of people you want to cc, then one by one you would have to submit each form (with the body auto filled for you). You would still have to manually type in that special code though.
At least it'll do away with those annoying friends of yours who do nothing but send 100 forwards a day to people
I've repeatedly had to tell my OWN friends "Send me another forward.. and I'll block you"
Then we submit their email addresses to the mailing list at the eMarketersAmerica site and any other spam wesite we can find :)
This Space Intentionally Left Blank
It's worth quite a bit, actually. Guys like Eddie Marin, "probably the world's largest smammer," didn't get there as a result of an ego trip, but through his profit motive. There's money to be made in spam.
Getting rid of the top 180 spammers in the world wouldn't eliminate spam, any more than "getting rid of" the top 20 auto makers would rid the world of new cars. They are both competitive industries, with new suppliers waiting in the wings. Guess which industry has the lower cost of entry barrier? Making it more difficult for spam to break through the filter will only enourage more technologically advanced, more prolific spam; it's just a slightly higher cost of entry. However advanced the technology behind the anti-spam filters become, is exactly how advanced the anti-anti-spam filters will be.
There's gold in them thar spam.
Spam will not go away until it becomes unprofitable: either stop responding to spam with your checkbooks, or start collecting a (small) toll on each email received. Where there's profit to be had, the profit motive will always succeed.
The cure for cancer is coming: Reovirus
Well... I checked the whois. I think they're getting smarter.
Firstly, no email address on the whois (damn)
next, the registrant name is: mark felstein
Looking this name up on google shows up that this person may be a lawyer
So, not only are the spammers being more cautious about being tracable... they're now filtering more through their lawyer. How smart of them.
Still, I'd imagine that the summary signing up of randomnames@emarketersamerica.org will still be generating an aweful lot of redundant traffic, which will be making somebody unhappy with the bandwidth bill (and yes, this is slashdot, you know that more than one person has enough time to sign up or script half a bazillion of these names onto spam lists).
Overture now actually useful
Then send this to (561) 367-7980
I think this guys's description of a request for a spamming program sums up his intentions:
"Well i have a proxy scanner that gets socks proxies, port 6588 and 1080, I need you to code a proxy mailer that will utilize this proxy. Will have an interface, random subjects, encoding, random fields, and ability to pass most mail filters and very good speed too..
My proxy scanners put the proxies on a http file so you need to make the mailer use cron jobs to get the proxies every 5mins or so.. Well who can do this, lets talk more."
can anybody find out who this guy is?
And the link:
Proxy mailer
How DARE you sully the honorific "Bastard"!!!
;-)
You've got this all wrong - he didn't call him a Bastard he called him a bastard - totally different.
Alex
tack
From the filing:
"Should the Defendants, be allowed to continue their assault upon the Plaintiff and the Plaintiff's industry, the Plaintiff's industry will cease to exist."
Yay. Now there's an incentive for a judge to issue an injunction if I ever heard one: the preservation of spam.
GoDaddy's Domain Registration policy (at http://registrar.godaddy.com/regAgreement.asp) does not require a physical address. Just a valid "Postal" address (See par. 3).
Internet Explorer was unable to link to the Web page you requested. The page might use standard HTML or CSS.
Here is an idea. Let just keep reloading their homepage again and again and again.. Slashdotting on steriods baby!
Step into the light of day, where we can get a bead on you....
It's Christmas everyday with BitTorrent.
Yes, it's much easier to come up with a dumb idea without having to think the whole thing through first.
Forget the whales - save the babies.
Has anyone noticed that, Gnutella also only has a small group of spammers? Notice after you do a search, you get:
yoursearch.mpg (28k)
yoursearch.mp3 (28k)
yoursearch.avi (28k)
yoursearch.html (28k)
yoursearch.doc (28k)
yoursearch.wav (28k)
yoursearch.exe (28k)
yoursearch (The Real Thing!).exe (28k)
yoursearch AWESOME!.exe (28k)
and maybe some real search results.
Notice they all come from the same host?
Gnutella used to be cool. It really is amazing how a small group can fuck things up for everyone.
I wonder what his lawyerly charge would be if someone were to mistype this information into a Google search?
So what would it take to file a class action suit on behalf of all users and ISPs? There have to be a large number of users who've missed important mail because it was buried in spam, or who've had to change the email address to get away from it, with the time lost to get everyone they care about switched. And as a small ISP, for the first time in 18 years, I'm in need of upgrading my system for performance reasons, because of the load spamassassin is putting on it dealing with all the f***ing spam it gets. Not to mention a domain that expired because the renewal notice got filtered and the time spent installing mechanisms to cope with it. I think I alone could argue for about $15K in actual damages, and I'm small potatoes. I just last night installed Active Spam Killer and I'm going to start migrating to it so that anyone who wants to send me mail that I don't know has to ask first. This is the world these assholes are making for us.
You are the first to mention Microsoft in a negative light in a thread that has nothing to do with Microsoft! You will soon be awarded with massive amounts of karma! Enjoy!
As an added note: the complete text of your message is 49 characters, while your sig is 92 characters. You have almost hit the mystical 2 to 1 ratio of sig to message content that would have gotten you an additional reward. Try to include less content next time. Thanks!
Forget the whales - save the babies.
It just goes to show how a few incredibly selfish individuals can bring chaos and ruin to society.
I agree 100%.
Personally, I'm completely against any and all forms of spam, or any commercial mailings of any sort unless there is an explicit request for information from an individual.
IDEA: I think that any and all advertising companies should be held accountable to have a database or list of EVERY persons request to receive mailings from them. That way, if they are ever taken to court, they can prove that the user requested such mailings. And if the company is too stupid to keep such a file...sue away...make them pay for not keeping track of their business. It's a requirement when it comes to Accounting practices...you have to keep all your information together, and you can't throw it out...why should it be any different here?
I know this is obvious, but it seems like the Spam suits, as well as the RIAA, MPAA, and DMCA suits are all arising because nobody is thinking about things reasonably, or they are not considering the consequences...everyone out there wants to do whatever they want with the power they have attained. For example, instead of spending the $$$ on all these DMCA lawsuits, just save time, and give the money to all the artists, or people that are complaining to start. The majority of what seems to be resulting is that a lot of lawyers are getting some nice retirement packages.
Hi, Offtopic really. But does anyone know if there are settings in Netscape (7.0) mail client to *not* open any HTML mail by default. (Like what opera does.!) Spammers go crazy once they know someone is opening the damn mails. Spam activity increased at least 2-3 times the regular levels ever since I opened one of the spam emails by mistake. (Netscape 7.0 mail client opened the darn mail in the preview pane.)
Also users of Opera: has the new opera update version 7.10 screwed up the junk mail classifier thingy? My junk mail was very nicely separated out before in 7.0 but ever since I have applied the update it has gone to the dogs.
.. as the article said we can countersue and get lots of information from them. If there is one common thread from past articles about these king spammers is that they all have a criminal background. Nearly all of them have spent time in jail for some felony or misdemeaner. If that information gets out, they loose their reputation as business people and loose business.
Although the point made in the article says that these spammers are all in Florida because of weak laws. It makes Florida sound like the porn capital of the US. I wonder what Disney thinks of that.
"Your having a bad day when the voices in your head put you on hold"
There's no reason to believe that spammers aren't harvesting e-mail addresses off of Slashdot. If the spammers really are mad, and if they really do look here, I have to wonder whether any of them are specifically grabbing addresses from this discussion. If ever there was a time to be an AC, this is it.
For an attorney in such good standing, why would he hide personal information? His bar association contact information is listed as a Mailbox Etc/The UPS Store. Now, everyone is trying to figure out if "& Associates" means the cleaning lady who comes in or his dog.
I find that quite amusing :)
Why don't we start sifting through our childrens email addresses, esp if they have posted to say a newsgroup. Look for anything valgur, sexual or gratuitus. Then charge the spammer with curruption of a child. Now that IS criminal in nature. Lets see how they would like to spend some time in jail!
It says something about our crappy legal system that total crap like this can even be introduced into a court. There should be a pre-trial hearing to determine if something's even worthy of appearing in a court. No fancy legal bullshit, just some guy who looks at something and says, "that's fucking bullshit...trash can". Like the McD's coffee lawsuite, this is fucking bullshit and should have been trashed by the court clerks upon receiving it.
blacklisting IP addresses of the plaintiffs
No-one has to use these blacklists. They can and have the right to blacklist anyone for any damn reason they choose. If individual's don't like their blacklisting policies, they can use a different blacklist. The fact is, these guys deserve to be blacklisted.
libel
Hahahhahahahahahahah. For something to be libel, it has to false. Every claim made about these slimebags is completely true. Period. End of discussion. In fact, these spammers need to be prosecuted for frauid: none of that crap you see in e-mails is true. It's all fraudulent.
invasion of privacy
Hahahahahah. If you send out thousands of e-mails a day, your e-mail address and contact information are not private. In fact, your e-mail address, phone number, or house number do not get the protection of privacy. That is all public information. Even if this claim was true, there are no penalties for invasion of privacy of the kind they could possibly be referrign to.
the publication of allegedly false information
Bullshit.
"intentionally interference with a contract"
Bullshit. No-one who has received SPAM had a contract with the spammer to receive it. Period. End of discussion.
This crap should have been trashed by the clerks who received it, and these guys should have been fined a hundred thousand dollars for wasting the court's time.
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
Why would you spam this guy? You'd be doing the same thing that they have been doing to you. Not to be too idealistic, but you wouldn't be much better than them.
I understand the feeling behind it, but you'll just give this moron some more fodder for his case. "Look your honour, these individuals are mean-spirited and started a campaign to intimidate me." We're dealing with a Judge and jury who are most likely not tech-savy. It's the usual problem; we geeks have no idea about PR and proper organization.
Don't interfere with the case, if you want to help ask SPEWS or SPAMHAUS if you can donate toward their legal costs or spread the word around.
Wearing pants should always be optional.
Hmm... what else in the US has gone to shit because of a handful of individuals. Oh yes, Congress! I'm sure they'll solve the problem quicklike.
Pretty ugly stuff. One interesting estimate is that 90% of the spam is thought to come from 180 spammers alone. Put a cost figure on them based on estimates of how much companies and ISPs must spend to combat spam and you have some pretty serious numbers and the impacts of theft (of bandwidth), denial of service, company productivity, and costs to our economy may constitute a terrorist threat to the internet.
Can we go after them under the Patriot Act?
- Zav - Imagine a Beowulf cluster of insensitive clods...
how about the name EMAA?
they could form with RIAA the biggest joke company!
oh wait, RIAA doesn't need EMAA for that...
Your page contains this:
l Height)
g ht) ;
<script language="JavaScript"><!--
if (window.screen) {
window.resizeTo(screen.availWidth*.75,screen.avai
window.moveTo(screen.availWidth*.1,0);
}
if ((screen.width <= 800)) {
window.resizeTo(screen.availWidth,screen.availHei
window.moveTo(0,0);
}
//--></script>
Where do YOU get off deciding what size MY browser window should be? Use relative numnbers for table widths and fonts and you won't be tempted into silly fucking kludges like this.
"that's not encryption - it's a new perl script that I'm working on..." - from some Matrix parody
That is from one of the many worms that can spread by gnutella. As long as you don't download it and then run it (be sure to disable the hiding of extensions if you use windows), you will be fine.
Wait, you're going to have a bunch of spammers together in a single room? Anybody know where and when this is happening? Myself and a few large friends would like to meet with these people and BREAK THEIR ARMS...
I mean, what better way for them to learn the errors of their ways than to be in AGONIZING PAIN? I'm sure *I* could reduce the amount of spam in the world if I could have just a few minutes alone with these people....
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
I'm gonna call some hard, pipe-hittin niggas to go to work with a pair of pliers and a blowtorch on mister Soon-to-be-spending-the-rest-of-his-life-in-agoniz ing-pain Spammer.
so.... left out. I mean I'm a big anti-spammer. I'm not as active in NANAE as I used to be but I'm still a big anti-spammer. :-( I feel so left out. This is so sad.
presumably you could do that with email anyway i.e. sender connects to receiving mail server which sends picture code to sender who includes the code in the email
what about this instead:
1. email is marked either anonymous or contains the identity of a verification server
2. receivers specify whether they want to receive anonymous email
3. non-anonymous senders have to have a verification service provider
that way, for a spammer to get through to everyone rejecting anonymous email, they have to have a verification service for their spam
and they have to keep moving it around to stop people blacklisting it or attacking it
and maybe its not worth their while spamming anymore
To start with, the right of EmarketersAmerica.org, inc. to sue on befalf of the spammers isn't clear.
32. Plaintif will suffer irreparable harm to its business reputaion and loss of its good will, unless the status quo is maintained.
Idiot spammers. The status quo is that spamhaus et al. block a lot of spam. The spammers want an injuction, changing the status quo.
Shoud the Defendants, be allowed to continue their assault upon the Plaintiff and the Plaintiff's industry, the Plaintiff's industry will cease to exist. This will cause more Americans to become unemployed.
I'd like your industry to cease to exist. I was made unemployed by Nortel, that doesn't give me the right to sue.
33. Plaintiff has no adequate remedy at law.
They've got that right!
46. Statements disclosed by Defendants were highly offensive to a reasonable person.
I don't think anyone would find their statements offensive, and even if they were, it's not illegal to be offensive.
There's lots more...
Has anybody noticed their website? It's just being parked right now, and the page lists anti-spam tools for sale! This is what happens when they aren't willing to put three megs of server space behind the domain, and instead they grab a cheap domain-registration-and-parking service!
Seriously, I would have thought that these spammers would have spent the extra $10 to actually get some disk space before filing a lawsuit that they should know will prompt many hits to their web site. I mean, there has got to be at least one person there who can whip up a quick page of html, and they should be able to split the cost amongst themselves.
I really hate signatures, but go to my website.
--well, isn't it? wouldn't this be a great time to actually catch the major spammers and have them served with papers, from whichever state has anti spam laws? It would take some research in advance, but an enterprising team of activists and some lawyers might be able to get the drop on dozens of them at that $$$ per spam rate I have heard about.
..later... to read interesting articles after they are posted, a few hours usually.
Of course, I actually COULD RTA before I post....
I usually wait until
You should write a honeypot that looks like a relay but dosn't forward any but the first message sent to it. Running a few thousand of those will do more to fight spam than generating bad addresses.
I have discovered a truly marvelous sig, unfortunately the sig limit is too small to contain i
It's a shame I'm a man.......
I've already found a wonderous thing that enhances my breasts!
Want to know my secret?
It's called BEER!!!
It is about time the sysadmins apply required authentication for SMTP (outgoing mail) server. This limits the freedom for spammers to hop around anonymously and use other people's mail server to send out spam. Even though it may not stop spam for good, but requiring authentication for sending out email will at least make them look for alternative methods.
It's like if a security system on your car, the crooks will look for an easier one to steal. Can we not apply the same principles here?
Spam exists because we let it happen, it's time we take some actions
David Lynch rules and he's a Yank. So I guess he makes up for the rest of you pricks
I went to battle MC Escher but drew a blank
I find that highly unlikely. If a human can read the image, a computer can "see" the image as well. Sure, you could probably come up with a way to make it difficult, and the spammers would need time to adapt. But they would. And once improved OCR software was written, then you're back to square one. Not to mention, anything you do to make the image difficult for a computer to read (e.g. poor contrast, overlapping images, etc.) would make the image difficult for a human, (perhaps vision-impaired, maybe just someone who forgot their reading glasses that morning) to figure out as well.
I fail to understand why this is "obvious." A human interfaces with the recipient's webform via a browser. I see no reason that a script can not do the exact same thing. Heck, one of the *current* spamming methods uses insecurities in formail. If a spammer script can interface with that, why couldn't it interface with [web-based email system]?Basically the system you've described is the guestbook, something that is implemented on any number of personal webpages everywhere. They're spammed all the time.
first, having the mail server send picture code makes no sense to me. The idea of the picture, is to ensure human interaction before sending the message. Email already does your points 1 , 2 ,3
The problem is people don't want to block anonymous email at the cost of rejecting people who aren't on they're list. Wtf are webmasters (who's emails soley consist of the general public) supposed to do? This is why my webmaster email address is a bounce, and the user is forced to fill out a form to msg me.
Maybe Joey McNicol http://t3-v-mcnicol.org/ can recommend some help. Remember that he's the Aussie who got sued by a Spammer and won in Oct of '02.
Suppose you install a spam filter that uses an encrypted list of keywords, presumably so other filtering products can't copy its list. Over time spammers will figure out which words trigger the filter, and they'll start using different words, or creative misspellings with the intent of bypassing the filter. In effect, they've reverse engineered a product which uses digital encryption to protect its IP. Therefore, the spammers have violated the DMCA.
OK, it's a stretch. But we have the DMCA, so we should be able to find some legitimate use for it.
At least the porn industry supports filtering software.
I'm pretty sure he wasn't trying to be funny.
It's a real article. Read it here
Or alternatively, check out TGS Coverage
3. non-anonymous senders have to have a verification service provider
Don't give Verisign any ideas!!! Before you know it, you'll need to pay a yearly fee just to get all your e-mails through.
But I think I managed a fairley accurate reading.
They are taking them to court because of the blacklists that they maintain; they want to see them terminated along with the anti-spam sites. They are claiming damages in excess of $75 000 because the defendants are not resident in the locality where these courts hold sway. The fact that the damages claimed exceed $75 000 allows the court excercise its authority out of its usuall local. They could be filing from where they are because the majority of them are there and it is conveniant, or they could have a judge in thier pocket.
Some of the statements in thier suit are rather obscure, they seem to be upset about an inability to track down one or two individuals and offices of corporation. The webistes they claim are falseley registered do, in fact, provide contact information. If they wish to contact the individual responsible I am sure someone is their too. Who says the organization has to be the one who owns the domain?
I hope this case makes it into the mainstream medias eyes, perhaps it will draw some public attention onto spam. If people realise that there is such a small group responsible for most of it they may stop accepting it as a fact of life and take steps to help eliminate it.
I think that the best thing that this anti-SPAM groups could do for the internet is let them send out all their SPAM. Once the internet slows to a crawl because the whole network is crushed with it, I am willing to bet you will quickly see new laws or enforcement of current ones to crush these guys like a bug. The anti-spammers have inadvertently helped them from becoming a total pest requiring the government to take action on the problem.
I guess that's why neither you nor I will be starting the "Al-Email" organization to destroy the spamming infidels.
Laws are for people with no friends.
"...
..."
from: bigman@emarketersamerica.org
to: bigman@emarketersamerica.org
subject: Increase your penis size...
DAAAAVVEEE!!! I thought I told you to *remove* our address from the spamming list?
This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification.
Delivery to the following recipients failed.
mark@EMarketersAmerica.org
Reporting-MTA: dns;hotmail.com
Received-From-MTA: dns;mail.hotmail.com
Arrival-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 13:48:00 -0700
Final-Recipient: rfc822;mark@EMarketersAmerica.org
Action: failed
Status: 5.0.0
Diagnostic-Code: smtp;553 sorry, that domain isn't in my list of allowed
rcpthosts (#5.7.1)
They're suing? Does that mean they have to show up in court? Anyone know any sharpshooters?
(Note to FBI/ATF/DHS/moderators: the above is a joke.)
Several things point to this being a joke. If it's not a joke, their lawyer is the most incompetent lawyer on the planet.
I have difficulty believing that a lawyer coud really have drafted this crud.
I'm also fighting spam. Yesterday there were three mails in my Inbox saying "Lets murder antispammers".
Do you care about the security of your wireless mouse?
Because, although many in government have joked about Al Gore inventing the internet, the current crop in the US House and Senate have have very few among them who understand the problems, and fewer still who seem interested in doing anything about it. As I see it, most are dealing with problems brought to their attention by campaign donors or people highly motivated to remove them from office if they don't do something particular to their state or district. Though spam is a world-wide problem, they don't see it as important. There are laws which cover wire-fraud and such, but most people scammed are too embarassed or don't know their options well enough to do anything.
If you campaigned for office in my district and/or state, chances are you rattle on about social security, abortion, school funding, etc. If you did show up and I had the time to attend your rally, you'd get an earful from me about what a major pain this spam is and how its about time the Cybersecurity Czar or someone started knocking skulls. Unfortunately, most of the other people there would think I'm some nut and that spam isn't as important as the other issues. IMHO that pretty much explains the way it is.
BTW I was getting 30-40 spams a day back in November, 2002. A month ago it was up to about 120. Currently I'm getting about 180, during 1 hour break for lunch, today, I received 43 pieces. It seems to come in barrages, so I'm pretty convinced it's like Alan Ralsky just fired off his next pile of fetid crap and is getting ready for the next issue, probably about 8PM tonight.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
can't believe godaddy is promoting these guys, glad i didn't renew my account with them.
... to sign up any @emarketersamerica.org email address found for random mailing lists?
"Never upset a goalie, getting hit with a blocker is an unpleasent experience - facemask or not." -Me
By taking a moment to key in the password you are doing your part to eliminate SPAM.
The best part is that by keying in that password and posting the whois information, doing your part to eliminate SPAM is just what you did.
Irene KHAAAAAAN!
It says something about our crappy legal system that total crap like this can even be introduced into a court. There should be a pre-trial hearing to determine if something's even worthy of appearing in a court. No fancy legal bullshit, just some guy who looks at something and says, "that's fucking bullshit...trash can". Like the McD's coffee lawsuite, this is fucking bullshit and should have been trashed by the court clerks upon receiving it.
You obviously don't know the facts in the McDonald's coffee lawsuit. McDonald's was serving their coffee -- systematically, as part of the franchise way of doing things -- 30 degrees F higher than "hot", i.e., 180 degrees F instead of 150 F.
Metaphorically, it's a little like the difference between sending someone home with a gun that's not loaded and the safety on, vs. loaded, cocked, and safety off. One is dangerous, but well understood to be so, the other is unnecessarily, negligently dangerous.
Beyond that, McDonald's had a long history of complaints and actions regarding the overly hot coffee. In other words, they were not doing something dangerous unknowingly, they were doing it deliberately.
Regular coffee from your average coffee place will burn you if you spill it on yourself, but it's only a 2nd degree burn. The woman who spilled the coffee on herself suffered 3rd degree burns. Look the difference up in a medical dictionary, preferrably one with pictures, and then imagine yourself having it done to your privates, like she did.
Wonder if you'd think it was a frivolous lawsuit then.
How emarketersamerica.org offers email accounts? For $9.95/year Sounds like a great investment...
If your theory is different from practice, then your theory is wrong.
Why on earth would these guys demand a jury? They'd be better off with an old judge that never uses a computer.... not a jury of American people that hate spam almost as much as we do.
Proof that spammers are stupid, I guess. Either that or they honestly believe that the American public wants their penis enlargment pills.
It's the idea of all this legal action over internet behavior that scares me. I'd rather the network were a giant, dangerous wasteland... than the over-legislated political mess that it is. I'd rather find ways to block spam, than make more laws. I'd rather have to institute functional security measures, than see everyone who scans a subnet get arrested. I'd also rather people made better protection systems, than prosecuting the people that beat them.
Someone else already pointed out all of the above to me, and I looked it up and altered my opinion on that particular case, McDonalds (see other comments on it by me, as response).
However, my comments on this SPAM-lawsuit still stand.
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
If you ever study game theory, you might (not) be surprised to see how many games there are where selfish idiots & the threat thereof ruin things for /everyone/ :(
Minor detail: a third degree burn involves charring of the skin. This is very difficult to do with what is essentially liquid water. The Stella Awards are aptly named after this old bat who's probably still laughing all the way to the bank.
I like my coffee hot, not tepid. I take responsibility for not being stupid and spilling a hot liquid that I have purchased specifically because its hot on myself. Its also been shown that people talking on their cell phone while driving are more likely to get in an accident. By your argument, someone who gets into an accident while talking on the phone and driving should be able to sue the cell phone manufacturer or their cellular provider because its known that this is dangerous behavior. Or would you have the cell phone manufacturers build in a motion sensor that cuts off transmissions at above say 5 mph?
BTW, McDonalds serves their coffee at 180 degrees F because PEOPLE LIKE IT THAT HOT. Duh.
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.
Ben
Good point! Silly Slashdot. We need MORE spam, not less! Maybe that's Bush's big jobs program - a quarter of America will be employed sending spam, and the rest will work on ways to block it.
"If he thinks he can hide and run from the United States and our allies, he's sorely mistaken." Bush on bin Laden
yeah... and we could call it...
HOTMAIL!
Really, though, this isn't really an option. To think that email is or can be strictly a web-browser-interface thing is a little unrealistic.
$0.02 (CDN)
Since Cable & Wireless and the North Carolina Attorney General will do nothing about a porn company in NC, I'm using the list of out-out spam that I've received, plus the opt-out spammers from http://www.cluelessmailers.org/, I've submitted his info to all those opt-out spammers. By now, it's probably getting credit card offers, magazine offers, refinancing offers, ... Oh, it's also getting magazines from Publishers Clearing House. It's signed up for newsletters from 2004 Presidential candidates and also is a volunteer. I wanted to sign it up to dmellc.net, a PG&C Leasing spamhaus company, but they appear to be dead.
I use MailWasher (http://www.mailwasher.net/) to bounce back email, as well as preview HTML before downloading. I use the hosts file as a template from http://www.smartin-designs.com/ to resolve web addresses as 127.0.0.1 and also add their IP address allocation as restricted in Norton Internet Security.
You're probably right. The skin grafts on the inside of my thigh were only needed for psychosomatic reasons.
By your argument, someone who gets into an accident while talking on the phone and driving should be able to sue the cell phone manufacturer or their cellular provider because its known that this is dangerous behavior.
You're right again. Also, everyone should have an innate sense that if they turn on the heated seat before sitting on it, it will permanently scar their back and legs.
BTW, McDonalds serves their coffee at 180 degrees F because PEOPLE LIKE IT THAT HOT. Duh.
Right again. I don't go to a fast food resturaunt because I want something fast. I go because it's important that I find some down time while I'm waiting for my food to cool.
If the spammers are banding together to fight anti-spammer groups, it probably means that those anti-spamming measures are effectively interfering with their business model. Maybe those 550 rejects are actually causing them some pain.
I've been very happy with my sendmail configuration, where I'm using blacklists and whitelists (/etc/mail/access) and a collection of realtime blocking lists. I had almost given up on recreational computing because of the sorry state of my inbox, but now things are better.
I think it's time for us to better document & pomote the use of these measures so that more people are sending them 550's, instead of quietly deleting their garbage.
The "cue the foo posts in 3, 2, 1..." posts will commence with no subsequent foo posts in 3, 2, 1...
Spam is just barely being controlled. You think there isn't a problem because it doesn't effect you. I think we need a month where the anti-spam forces just call it quits. Then I can listen to people link you whine about spam instead of anti-spam for once.
Perhaps we need (-1, Conspiracy to commit mass murder)?
Why do you feel this hatred for spammers? Do you feel as strongly about anything else, because there's a hell of a lot of stuff more important than whether you have to click and press 'Delete', while sitting in your comfortable chair?
By the way, I'm not defending spammers, and I'm not a spammer. Nor do I benefit from the activities of spammers and nor do any of my family, friends, or business associates, to the best of my knowledge. Just to make that clear.
It's too damn bad that directed biowarfare agents aren't specific enough to target spam slime.
"Make your domain registration private! ...yeah OK.
Protect yourself from spam, scams, prying eyes, and worse."
We're getting way off topic here, but:
In New Zealand, "stock cars" are very different beasts, but almost as non-stock. They still make left turns around an oval track, but:
* The cars cost between a few thousand and a few tens of thousands of dollars
* The track is much shorter
* The track is dirt
* The cars are allowed (in fact, actively encouraged) to hit each other.
One place to start on this is to look at the home page of a computuer geek/stock car racer friend of mine. (Check out the IBM 360 saga also.)
I'm a computer geek without much interest in motor racing, but I watch a fair bit when flatting with a (different) stock car driving friend. My picks for the best racing are:
* NZ stock car teams racing (see below)
* British touring car racing (these really are stock cars.)
* NASCAR et al.
I found F1 very boring - they hardly ever get to overtake. NASCAR was much more interesting than I had anticipated, because the wide track gives so much more opportunity for overtaking.
In New Zealand stock car teams racing, there are two teams, each with 4 cars. The team that first gets *one* of their cars the required distance (typically 8 laps) wins. Remember, they're allowed to hit each other - typically only half the cars are mobile by the end. And missing a wheel doesn't count as immobilized.
Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
>It's not that simple. The same laws that govern >one thing cannot always be easily applied to >other things. Things aren't so black and white. >Think of it like "hackers". A "hacker" goes to >prison longer than, someone who does, what we >consider, a worse crime.
Ignorance and lawyers = new useless laws.
I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
Note: I'm not a lawyer, and if you want to get specific legal advice about which 20% of this message is totally bogus as opposed to merely imprecise or incorrect, you could go hire a real lawyer
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
I pointed this message out to a friend who IS blind and is probably the most knowledgeable programmer I ever met.
He and all of his friends will be paying you an electronic visit...soon.
Are there spam free email protocol options?
I have almost every other protocol to bypass the need for email. Messaging, IRC, Usenet, non-standard.
I even have an IRC bot that can deliver mail to my local machine bypassing my ISPs email.
I also have several non-internet disclosed email addresses for critical email.
And I have several honey pot emails, just cause when I get really bored, I have something to do.
Oddly enough, one of the providers I tried for the undisclosed email address, somehow managed to release that email address to spammers before I could even use it. Needless to say, the check didn't clear.
I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
BTW, McDonalds serves their coffee at 180 degrees F because PEOPLE LIKE IT THAT HOT. Duh.
:).
I don't think you've ever taken the temperature of your coffee when you drink it (I have, and sampled many others, ah, the joys of chem lab
212 Farenheit is the boiling point of water. Like, vaporisation. 180 is close enough that I guarantee you you'll have some serious pain if you ingest much of it.
McDonald's was found negligent for having their coffee too hot because (and follow this closely here) virtually every other restaurant/donut/coffee shop in the country keeps it far cooler. That's an important part of negligence - what's the usual thing to do. If everyone kept their coffee at 180 degrees, this lawsuit wouldn't have gone anywhere.
Oh yeah, if people want their coffee that hot, why doesn't McDonald's have a 99% market share on counter coffee sales? And why don't they have big screaming ads "OUR COFFEE IS THE HOTTEST IN THE BIZ" to attract all of the people looking for it?
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
It means their names will all end up in the court documents. That will come in very handy when someone has the guts to nail them under the rico act which will send them all to club fed for a very long time. So everyone torment these guys all you can and see if we can get them all in on the game.
The closest I could see to anything that might let their complaint get anywhere is that they asserted that the anti-spammers were selling their products commercially. I've lost track by now of who's commercial and who's non-commercial, but they've got more of a case if they're claiming that the anti-spammers are in it for the money rather than people providing a public service for the good of humanity.
The plaintiff is demanding a jury trial here, alleging that the value of the complaint is over $75K, which is presumably some legal threshold in the jurisdiction he's suiing in, though I didn't see where he provided any backup for that number. Sounds like a Bad Move to me - he's probably hoping he can whine to a jury about how those mean, nasty anti-spammers are trying to put him out of business, but he'll either have to make sure that nobody on the jury actually gets email, or else he'll find that instead of arguing points of law with a judge, where maybe he'd get somewhere, when its' the defendants turn to speak, they'll start putting up quantities and categories of email that spam-blockers are trying to block, leaving the jury ROTFLTAO.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
You know, those Mean Nasty Robots that sign up people for paper junk mail, which have been in the news lately.
"Minor detail: a third degree burn involves charring of the skin. This is very difficult to do with what is essentially liquid water." Medical detail: what laypersons call "third degree burns" does not require charring, it merely requires destruction of "full thickness" of the epidermis, which is easily accomplished by liquids at 180 degrees F. You can't drink coffee that hot without severely burning your mouth. Legal detail: McDs had received numerous complaints that the coffee had caused burns at serving temperature, but persisted in having the coffee makers set ABOVE the manufacturer's recommended brewing temps. It was economics - the hotter the brewing water, the less coffee has to be used to get a certian strength coffee. The jury award was based on the daily sales of coffee by McD's (one day's sales, I believe).
Oh, nevermind.
Since I read the news group, it has become clear to me that these spammers do not seem to understand the trouble they are in. I don't think their plan for them to have a sockpuppet lawyer file a frivolous lawsuit against the anti-spammers around the time the anti-spammers are at the FTC conference is going to help. Makes me wonder if their absurd logic for this was that in doing so they would run the FTC conference, the anti-spammers would be either intimidated, put off going the conference to handle the lawsuit, etc.
.
Here is a list of some things that will probably bite the spammers in the ass both the suit and conference:
Pulling all sorts stunts like this before the FTC conference, not the kind of stuff they should be doing when they are going to be "debating" in front of the FTC. You can guarantee this stuff will be brought up and made reference to and it will harm them.
The spammers statements made in news groups, mail , im etc. To see what I mean just read Brendan Battles's usenet posts here and here
Illegally obtaining an anti-spammers personal information. Despite what the morons think, posting it every where online does not make it public. Anti-spammers rely on legally obtained public information, which is intended for things such as suing spammers for violating anti-spam laws, and the anti-spammers do not endorse or support the harassment of spammers.
Sending anti-american joe jobs using not only known anti-spammers email addresses, but giving their personal info such as phone numbers, addresses, etc.
The people they are suing and claim to be spews are not spews, and no one knows who spews is. They only provide a mirror.
They do not "mangle" email nor do they block it, they provide a list of IPs of known spammers and spam supporting isps.
The spammers inept attempt at DoSing these list sites. They where sloppy and the anti-spammers know who did this.
ETC
The list can go on so lets just leave it at that. I can say things will be very interring next week, I wouldn't be surprised if they try starting more shit up.
NOW do you see where they get people who will pay for this service?
We knew all along. It's been over a year ago when one spammer bragged about his one in ten million spams resulting in a sale, and still being able to turn a profit.
PT Barnum was right.
I'm wondering what kind of world our childrens children will live in. You don't have to look at spam to see where the Internet is heading; just look at the banner ads on websites. Did I say banner ads? They take half the screen these days.
I think we'll see a generation of shlong enlarging sociopaths with a small countermovement of kids who will read books, enjoy the outdoors, and perhaps browse the enlightened bits of the Internet through a rediscovered protocol called Gopher.
Bert Driehuis -- All I asked was a friggin' rotatin' chair. Throw me a bone here, people.
...they are being sued because they sell products/list information...
Yeah, I got a good giggle when I saw the word "sell". I never payed spamhaus.org nor Steve Linford a penny in return for his spare time. Likewise for Joe Jared. As to the other named defendants, I know them by reputation and none of the defendants ever solicited money from me. The only money I ever spent on anti-spam efforts was for legal defense funds, and I'm darn sure the only folks profiting from that were the legal beagles.
As far as I can tell, the only folks making a profit out of spam, apart from the spammers obviously, are the commercial anti-spam services -- who are conspicously absent from the suit.
If this thing actually goes to court, it's gonna be fun to see the ISP's mentioned in the suit present their side of the contract. "You see, y'r honor, we signed on these respectable businessman, but SPEWS strongarmed us into disconnecting them. We didn't mean to deprive the short shlonged population of this country of the critical information about helpful products!"
Bert Driehuis -- All I asked was a friggin' rotatin' chair. Throw me a bone here, people.
Cards? That so 20th century... now we play Internet games, like "Spamcentration"!!
So, who can get under 2 minutes?
Heh, In Soviet Russia: SPEWS ROCKS!!
That's about the same number coalition killed in iraq. Next time, send these guys. Don't worry about giving them bullets.
If it can be proven that they're also hijacking other peoples' servers as spam relays, perhaps we can throw in some jail time as well.
OS Software is like love: The best way to make it grow is to give it away.
How about sueing the 5% who reply to spam mail.
People vs. Moron
For promoting harasment.
Personal certificates are the key. Start using them and then deny all non-signed email. At least this way you can show up at the spammers door and knock some sense into them.
Someone needs to make personal certs easier to use.
Silly question, but, are there any (live) spammers - in Texas ?
If the law is on your side, you hammer the law. If the facts are on your side, you hammer the facts. If neither the law or the facts are on your side, your hammer the table.
After reading through this complaint, I think they're hammering the table.
Another thing that hasn't been discussed yet is the claim in the article that the anti-spammers are going to try to discover information about the spammers. Personally, I see a big fight over these being trade secrets, and they might not come out after all. Depends on the judge and Florida's discovery laws.
IAAL
IAAL
Just check out the gleeful declarations of GreedyGirl.com - who proudly talks about how she cleverly bypasses spam filters and other horrifying shit.
While the thought of VeriSign owning this hypothetical business is a bit scary, I would gladly pay a few bucks a year if it meant no more spam.
Why would you spam this guy? You'd be doing the same thing that they have been doing to you. Not to be too idealistic, but you wouldn't be much better than them.
Sending one individual email isn't spamming, though.
I sent him an email, asking him, of all things, "why he took on such clients." Naive soul that I am, I also kindly asked him not to pass my email address(yes, my real one) on to his clients.
While writing this, I got the very speedy reply:
From: Mailer-Daemon@online.no
To: **(me)**
Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure)
Guess I'll have to snailmail a token of my appreciation for his efforts.
I can feel one coming.
The gif/jpeg wouldn't be viewable by blind users using screen readers. If a bot can't read it, neither can a blind person.
"Now is a good time to test the new MOAB bomb again. "
Yeah, and then I'll go to the ATM machine, type in my PIN number, get some cash and go buy some CD discs.
i think i'll put root@emarketersamerica.org in my doublebounceto file in qmail :)
Lawyers, MBA's, RIAA? A jedi fears not these things!
If the spammers are using my email address to make money, dont I have some right to a part of that money. I do pay an ISP for an email address and they are profiting for it .
If anti spamn groups can get their list of emails, all the people that are on that list should get togheter and sued them.....
PENAROL: Seras eterno como el tiempo y floreceras en cada primavera.
7.62mm Depleted Uranium rounds in 75 round drums, line em up and make the Valentines Day masacare of Chicago look like a Disney movie.
Fuck`n spammers...
Teasea: my (believe it or not) sincere condolences on toasting your backside on a defective heated car seat. Ouch. Has nothing to do with Stella spilling coffee on herself though unless you've got some sort of water heating for you seat. BTW, I drank my share of McDs coffee when its was all I could afford. I liked it the way they served it since it stayed hot enough to be decent while I ate their grease burgers. A friend of mine still specifically likes McDs coffee the way they serve it. I can now afford to go for less quantity and higher quality.
freeweed: See the above. Affordable and tasty is important. I worked graveyard as an undergrad to pay for college: get up at 9:00 pm, go to work at 11:00 pm, work 'til 7:00 am, go to class 'til mid-afternoon, go home and go to bed and then do it all again five days a week. McDs caffeine was the only thing that kept me going and lets just say that every *penny* counted. Get off your high horse and get this, cheap means more people can afford it. Less efficient means fewer people can afford it. Less efficient and paying off the Stellas of the world means a lot of people can't afford it. So Stella wins the booby prize and a bunch of people can't afford something because of it. If that's your idea of a fair world, I hope you enjoy it 'cause its not mine.
Tsu Dho Nimh: The definition of third degree burns I learned quite a few years ago and in a very simplified first aid class included charring as a distinctive characteristic of third degree burns. If this has changed or my class was too simplified then so be it. One thing I do not claim to be is any kind of medical person. See my other comments above with regard to how hot McDs coffee is though.
A minor fact of the case that seems to have been forgotten in elevating Stella to supreme victimhood status is that Stella wasn't driving at the time the coffee spilled. She was a passenger in a car driven by her daughter. Stella didn't sue her daughter or her daughter's insurance company; she sued McDs. Stinks to me of going after the deepest pockets. Ca-Ching.
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.
Ben
In most of the cases THEY are not the ones paying for the bandwidth that they take up and the loss of productivity that they cause. If they were to pay me for my bandwidth, my company for letting me browse the herbal viagra ad, and compensate me for reading all that crap...i would not be so adamantly against them....
Only in a perfect world.....
Live for the present, learn from the past, and dream of the future!
Small correction:
Drug dealers suing DEA?
hany
He goddam mad dog, eh?
Go, dog! Go, dog!
(God: Deified dog.)
Woman maps yam snot and DNA--tons may spam Nam. Ow!
- The McDonald's training manual states that coffee "must be brewed at 195 to 205 degrees and held at 180 to 190 degrees F for optimal taste."
- The best brewing temperature for coffee is 197 to 205 degrees F for 90% of the contact time.
- People who don't know how to make good coffee in their home usually don't get it hotter than 150 degrees F
So, here we have a case of a company doing the right thing, exposing people to properly prepared coffee (at least as far as temperature is concerned, their roast sucks), and getting sued for it.Anybody look at that website? Hell yes! They have value email boxes! I think i'll go right ahead and buy an email account from them! It's _ONLY_ $9.95/yr!!!!!!!! They would never thinking of spamming their own customers! Right?... Right?...
So, Mr. Spam organisation head. Remind me again, exactly which ip ranges can be confirmed as Spam that you wouldn't like me to block others from seeing?
Honestly, I won't take this list published and freely available in the court record and encourage the entire planet to use it in their personal block list. Really. Forwarding the entire contents to mefels@aol.com rather than deleting would be even worse, so I definitely won't be doing that one.
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
After they died, our planetary listing was shifted to level 2. Eventually it'll age off -- Probably when squirrels are running the planet.
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
I think the proper question is "So why is it so hard to track down these few individuals, break their knees with a baseball-bat and make them eat their own shit, espesially if they are known?"
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
I didn't condon it, I mearly said, people don't understand the economy, they think that a cost to a company goes down the toilet, and it's not true, it goes to pay other companies and their programmers. No money is **lost** just put elsewhere, maybe for a stupid reason, but it happens all the time.
I would be willing to put alot of money into a bet that says that symantec of norton write viruses to keep their anti-virus scene alive.
Who knows about it more than them? Who knows, maybe the spammers are the ones who own the companies that make anti-spam, make money 8761876213 ways, its the MS way.
Posting useless rant since 2003.
replace of with or
Posting useless rant since 2003.
This discussion can be used by spammers to make corrections and plan for stuff (like the legal issues for example) the spammers need to counter if this case does happen.
What I find when I go to http://www.EmarketersAmerica.org:
"THIS PAGE HAS BEEN RE-DIRECTED FOR ABUSE / SPAM VIOLATIONS"
hmmm... e-Vigilantes at work?
Wanted: One witty yet thought provoking
In a move related to the current suit brought against certain Anti Internet Spam organizations, a new group, The ChineseSpammersLiberationMovement.org has filed suit against the virus SARS, naming Mother Nature as co-defendant in the suit. CSLM alleges in its suit that Mother Nature, and other unnamed defendants, did create SARS, which has caused the Chinese Government to close Internet Cafes, therefore denying CSLM members access to their hidden bank accounts and free email providers. In a statement to Chatmag News, a spokesperson for the CSLM said, "we don't blame the Government, we are going after the source of biology and viral science. Mother Nature cannot be allowed to continue to infringe upon our rights to conduct commerce".
Pete Carr Owner Chatmag.com