China Accelerates Mars Program

securitas writes "You read it correctly - Mars. China has announced it intends to accelerate its Mars program, using experience and expertise from its fledgling lunar program. Following China's proposed Moon missions, the first phase would send a Mars orbiter to examine and survey the Red Planet; the second phase will involve wheeled robotic probes like China's Mars Explorer roving vehicle prototype, used to collect and analyze rock samples; and the third phase will involve returning spacecraft from the planet and establishing a permanent automated base on Mars. This puts the China-India space race and the China-USA space race in a very different light and clearly indicates that China plans to play with the big boys of Mars exploration."

Comments

About time...

[MoThugz]

Asia has it's representative in space exploration.

Go China!

Finally

[Anonymous Coward]

It is good to see China thinking of long term plans instead of just, in my opinion, effectively re-inventing the wheel by going to moon.

Re:Finally

[ralphclark]

Yep, chances are they are just saying this to wind up the US. I'll bet this sort of thing is actually quite a long way down on their list of priorities. Even if they mean it, the cash could easily dry up before it gets that far. The world isn't exactly in a boom economy right now.

Re:Finally

[Farrell]

If the wheel hasn't been used in decades, maybe it could use a little reinventing.

Re:Finally

[mickwd]

Perhaps it's because the US is scaring them.

I ask you, what could the US possibly do to make the Chinese (and the rest of the world) even more interested in accelerating their space programs than attempting to pull crap like this ?

Re:Finally

[Eric(b0mb)Dennis]

That was a great article, and I suggest you mod that post up, if anyone with mod points read this.

If the US did successfully take control of space in such a way, it could be really damaging to the human race in general... if we want to survive, we will (someday) have to get off this rock, and if the human race as a WHOLE doesn't work together on this goal, we are all doomed.

Re:Finally

[2Bits]

I'd like to see a mission before I believe any of it.. seems like China is just preparing for a cold war

Conspiracy theory put aside, I think this is a little bit exagerated.

The Chinese government (most high level officials who can make major governmental decisions, at least) are mostly practical. You can't really find anyone who is ultra-conservative and xenophobic right now, not those who are in the position to make decisions.

The major concerns right now to push the economic development as fast as we can (I say we, as I'm Chinese and living in Shanghai), unless there's concern about uncontrollable inflation.

Most officials now just try to play nice, especially with the US (remember the plan crash incident? Bush was amazingly arrogant at the time, but China kinda backed down not to get the sino-us relation into bad water). A lot of people think the government is spineless. But I think the government made a lot of decisions that are right, given the current situations here (economic, political, scientific, ...etc). China still depends a lot on other countries, and the officials understand that.

And this is a good thing.

Sure, China tries to develop other areas of expertise too, so what? What does that have to do with Cold War? Why do we have to think that all scientific research must have anything to do with military conspiracy, especially when it is done in China, India, or Russia?

Do you think only people in the US love peace? We all do too. Just give us a chance and I believe we can contribute a lot to the progress of humanity too, just we have done in the past.

Re:Finally

[Eric(b0mb)Dennis]

I wasn't meaning to bash China, as I really hope they do go forward and SUCCEED with these missions. It just seems weird though.. Maybe China really plans on doing these things, i certainly don't know. I just have a gut feeling this is another political merry-go-round

Re:Finally

[SpinyNorman]

Yep. Not just "negation", but also other countries have seen the advantage that GPS guided weapons gives to the US, and are no doubt paying keen attention to the US's recently announced global reach weapons plans:

US to Develop High-speed Drone with Global Reach

What with the European Space Agency now in collaboration with the Russian's and China's newfound interest, it looks like the next space (weapons) race may be on.

Re:Finally

[Anonymous Coward]

If China stopped with the oppresion of Tibet, and stopped leaning on Tiawan like they do, then maybe I'd be a little more inclined to believe you when you say that China "wants peace".

Re:Finally

[KingJoshi]

(About) Everybody "wants peace". They just want it on their own terms and are willing to die (or kill) for it.

Re:Finally

[chef_raekwon]

The world isn't exactly in a boom economy right now.

don't you mean - " The US isn't exactly in a boom economy right now."

I am not a macro economist, but from my count, it is apparent that the only ones falling on hard times are the Iraqis, and the Americans....(okay, I may have left a few others off the list, purely for focus)

Up here in Canada, we have had steady growth and progress, even as a slight decline is 'predicted'in the near future. This goes without saying that many other nations are also in the same 'up and up'. (I believe China is one of them)

just my silly cents.

Re:Finally

[mark2003]

Why am I not suprised by this article?

Obviously the US military needs this to stop terrorists - I mean I can see Al Queda buildng some evil doomsday device on the moon. Who do they think Bin Laden is? Dr Evil?

Re:Finally

[fitten]

Yeah... sounds a lot like the Reagan years and using defense spending to bankrupt other governments.

Re:Finally

[pubjames]

The world isn't exactly in a boom economy right now.

I think you are confusing the USA with the world.

I believe that the Chinese economy is currently growing at a rate of a couple of hundred percent a year. I think that counts as a boom economy, no?

Re:Finally

[ralphclark]

Lucky you. Europe has been hurting for a while now. And the newly installed government of the Bank of England has just said it's now the UK's turn.

Re:Finally

[Wyatt Earp]

Not sure what you've been reading for the last few years, but the World economy isn't doing well.

Japan's economy is tanking
"Japan's Economy May Shrink in 2nd Qtr Amid Rising Pessimism"

South Korea's economic growth is down to 1/2 of what it was after the frst Asian economic crisis.

http://www.eubusiness.com/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=11 31 04&d=101&h=240&f=56&dateformat=%25o%20%25B%20% 25Y

The EU's economy is worse off than the US economy.
"Just as the US economy shows signs of a bounce following the Iraq conflict, Europe's appears headed for the quicksand.

In recession-hit Germany, the biggest of the 12 single-currency members, a total of 9,747 companies went bust in the three months of this year, a rise of 9.4 percent from the same period of 2002. "

"In France, the second-biggest euro economy, the official statistics institute INSEE predicted that 2003 growth would be the lowest in 10 years at just 0.8 percent."

Don't be too sure of Canada's economy, it's starting to waver.

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM. 20 030628.uecon0628/BNStory/Front/

"Economist Ted Carmichael of J.P. Morgan Securities Canada Inc. immediately revised his estimate of second-quarter activity from a forecast of no growth to one in which the economy contracted at an annual rate of 1 per cent, a far cry from the 2.4-per-cent growth of the first quarter."

The United States still is the strongest economy in the world. The US and China are the major industrial contries with the best growth. China at 6-7% and the US at 2-4%

Re:Finally

[Anonymous Coward]

The EU's economy is worse off than the US economy.

You what? Lower inflation, lowest interest rates for decades, unemployment below 1 million (First time in decades!), exports are strong, funding is still available for new businesses, the Euro has made strong gains against a very weak dollar, and the EU is fully on course to become the 2nd largest single trading zone in the world. Yeah, boy, we're sure in the shit!

Oh, yeah mean certain European countries such as Germany and Italy have worse economies than the U.S? Well why didn't you say that?

Re:Finally

[ralphclark]

*slaps head* GOVERNOR of the Bank of England. Duh.
I meant also to say that the pundits keep referring to a *global* economic slowdown, so I don't think it's just a few rich countries.

Remember that when we stop buying, the "developing" nations have no-one left to sell to.

Re:Finally

[Anonymous Coward]

We can all "work together" when the tyrannical socialist and communist states are gone. Then we will no longer be competing to impose our "way of life" on others.

Re:Finally

[Anonymous Coward]

"(remember the plan crash incident? Bush was amazingly arrogant at the time, but China kinda backed down not to get the sino-us relation into bad water)."

I find it interesting that that's how it looked to a Chinese citizen, and have to question your state-run media, as most of the rest of the world had a very different opinion.

Re:Finally

[Anonymous Coward]

"(remember the plan crash incident? Bush was amazingly arrogant at the time, but China kinda backed down not to get the sino-us relation into bad water)."

I find it interesting that that's how it looked to a Chinese citizen, and have to question your state-run media, as most of the rest of the world had a very different opinion.

CCTV and CNN doesn't differ very much when it comes to propaganda... perhaps you should move abroad for a while, and discover that reality wasn't as it was told on TV.

Re:Finally

[danro]

Sure, the global picture locks pretty bleak. US, Europe and parts of Asia is having problems right now.
But, the fact is there is one player that is not following the trend.
Thats, right, China.
Despite SARS, despite Hong Kongs diffculties, China is still in a economic boom!

They may actually change the balance in the world economy considerably, if this continues for a few years. And a space program is proven to give a lot of nice spinoff effects, and technological progress.
I think I can see why this would be a good time for China to start one.

Re:Finally

[glrotate]

A lousy pilot crahed his fighter jet into a lumbering propeller driven plane over international waters. When the US plane crash landed in China the Chinese government wouldn't release them.

There really isn't much you can spin out of these basic facts.

Re:Finally

[WindBourne]

The Chinese government (most high level officials who can make major governmental decisions, at least) are mostly practical. You can't really find anyone who is ultra-conservative and xenophobic right now, not those who are in the position to make decisions.
China suffers from the same problem as the USA. Recent presidents have shown a willingness to break past treaties (hell, all through history, we have shown a propensity for doing that, and indians tribes/native americans can testify to that) to push their agenda. China does the same with just about the same regularity. The problem for both is that we get hawks in each who really have no idea of how the world runs (perhaps they lived a hollywood life or simply avoided being put on the front lines of war, by hook or by crook). If you assume that we are going to make the same mistakes all over again, then, personally, I would like to think that we are going to come out on top.

Re:Finally

[rsborg]

If China stopped with the oppresion of Tibet, and stopped leaning on Tiawan like they do, then maybe I'd be a little more inclined to believe you when you say that China "wants peace".

Hmm...
s/China/the US/
s/Tibet/Afghanistan/
s/Taiwan/the rest of the world

If the US stopped with the oppresion of Afghanistan, and stopped leaning on the rest of the world like they do, then maybe I'd be a little more inclined to believe you when you say that the US "wants peace".

Re:Finally

[Anonymous Coward]

I think a little competition is healthy as far as going into the great beyond.

Re:Finally

[CptPicard]

You are forgetting that it is beneficial for the USA to have a manageable amount of enemies. I am starting to feel that if they don't have any, they must make some, as the threat from the "evil other" can be used to politically control the population and also as an excuse for the insane amounts of money the USA pours into its military-industrial complex.

If substantial numbers of Americans suddenly realized that they don't have much to fear in the world at the moment if they just don't act like total bastards, entire sectors of US economy would be wiped out and the people would not have a reason to re-elect a right wing extremist president.

I'm afraid China and the US are headed for a cold war no matter what China does, because for the USA, China makes a convenient enemy...

Re:Finally

[Moridineas]

if we want to survive, we will (someday) have to get off this rock, and if the human race as a WHOLE doesn't work together on this goal, we are all doomed.

I'll keep that in mind...for 50 million years from now ;)

Re:Finally

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear 2Bits,

Your slashdot post has been approved. You may post it now.

Chinese Government.

Re:Finally

[Guppy06]

"I'd like to see a mission before I believe any of it.. seems like China is just preparing for a cold war"

Then they've already lost. For example:

USA has a few thousand nuclear weapons
China has a few dozen

Result: China loses

USA has a 3-ocean navy
China barely has a 1-ocean navy

Result: China loses

USA has a permanent manned presence in space
China hasn't sent anybody into space yet

Result: China loses

Part of winning the Cold War with the Soviets means having a 499-meter head start in the next 500-meter dash. Sure, it's possible for China to come out of nowhere and get ahead, but it's just as possible for my ass to quantum tunnel through my chair.

Re:Finally

[Anonymous Coward]

The point is that like the US and unlike virtually everyone else the domestic economy of China is big enough for it to continue to grow *based solely on domestic demand*. For all the growth of Chinese exports, I remember reading that 80% of Chinese growth is internal. IOW, China is better equipped to ride out a world recession better than most other nations.

"Let the Chinese dragon sleep, for when it awakes it will amaze the world" - Napoleon

How long?

[buro9]

Before NASA's budget sees a major increase?

Re:How long?

[PhillC]

An increase in the NASA budget would be a very good thing for the future of Government lead space exploration.

However, the caveat I would add is that as long as this increased spending did not come from social welfare budgets, health, education etc.

The best place for an increased NASA budget to come from is military spending. If the amount of effort and money that is spent on creating items of destruction was put into space exploration I'd say we'd be in for some exciting times.

Re:How long?

[Fembot]

Good... I've been needing a new hitec device like a microwave for sometime now....

Roll on next space race

Re:How long?

[Paulrothrock]

Well, considering an increase of 7% in NASA's budget would bring it up to the same level of spending as during the Apollo era, and that that increase could put a man on mars in 10 years, this couldn't be a bad thing.

Re:How long?

[sql*kitten]

However, the caveat I would add is that as long as this increased spending did not come from social welfare budgets, health, education etc.

It is not as simple as that. For example, if diverting money from social programmes to industry boosts employment, then the welfare budget can shrink with no ill-effect because fewer people need it. If diverting money from education to space research means that grants for physics postdocs are approved by a different committee than before, then the net result is likely to be little different. If money is diverted from healthcare to orbital laboratories, which then come up with new drugs, then that's actually better for the nation's health.

The best place for an increased NASA budget to come from is military spending. If the amount of effort and money that is spent on creating items of destruction was put into space exploration I'd say we'd be in for some exciting times.

A lot of space activity is funded from military spending. The USAF are prolific satellite enthusiasts, for example. That brings down the cost of launching for everyone and funds development of sensors and signal processing technology that can be used by scientists.

What I would really like to see is some military spending diverted to fusion research. That would be win-win - a scalable power source, both for use on Earth and to power spacecraft on long missions, and it would also meet the military's goal of increasing national security by reducing reliance on the Middle East. Frankly I am surprised that alternative sources of power aren't receiving more interest at present.

Re:How long?

[Anonymous Coward]

..a scalable power source...reducing reliance on the Middle East.

It would also reduce your reliance on Bush & Co.'s whoopin' an' a holerin' bunch of oilmen. So, it ain't gonna happen any time soon.

Re:How long?

[gpmap]

Probably longer than the Chinese take to get to Mars and beyond. But then, foreign competition is the only thing that can wake the US admin up for space (remember the 60s)

Re:How long?

[jandersen]

'if diverting money from social programmes to industry boosts employment' goes the usual catchphrase. It doesn't work that way; the rich people get richer, the poor don't, that's all. You'll find out after a few more years of Bush's reward-my-pals-scheme; that is, if you don't die in the meantime because you couldn't get medical benefit.

As for the military - this is about research, right? And we people of the internet believe in freedom of information - especially when it comes to scientific information. The army should be thrown out, simply - they don't believe in openness and sharing information. Giving them more money will just make them grow bigger, so America will alienate more of the world, so the army needs to grow bigger, which will create more enemies, etc etc ad nauseam.

America needs two things: humbleness and frugality. Humbleness, which is necessary for building friendship, and frugality with resources that are soon going to be scarce. Fusion is not likely to be within easy reach in the near future. We simply know too little, and perhaps it will turn out that the only profitable way to produce energy that way is to create a star.

Re:How long?

[sql*kitten]

As for the military - this is about research, right? And we people of the internet believe in freedom of information - especially when it comes to scientific information. The army should be thrown out, simply - they don't believe in openness and sharing information.

Umm, you do know that the Internet was actually invented by the military, right? Go look up DARPA on your favourite search engine.

Fusion is not likely to be within easy reach in the near future.

The breakeven point was reached recently, the point at which a fusion reaction outputs as much power as is needed to sustain it. The science is done; the rest is all engineering. But at present it is starved of resources.

Re:How long?

[bill_mcgonigle]

Just wait for some old Congressmen to realize that China is only after Mars because it's the Red planet.

Re:How long?

[bwalling]

Frankly I am surprised that alternative sources of power aren't receiving more interest at present.

Really? Oil is big money. Big money gets things done in this country.

Re:How long?

[sql*kitten]

Really? Oil is big money. Big money gets things done in this country.

But there is no such thing as Big Oil, really - there is only Big Energy. People don't want oil, it's nasty stuff, they want to be able to move people and goods from A to B, heat homes, power electrical devices and so on. Energy companies should be racing to see who gets to fusion first, because whoever does will make a fortune.

Re:How long?

[Atario]

How long?

Coincidentally, that's the name of the Chinese Mars rocket.

Re:How long?

[outsider007]

and that that increase could put a man on mars in 10 years, this couldn't be a bad thing.
oh yeah lets put a woman on venus while we're at it.

Re:How long?

[Farrell]

I agree that devoting money to research them COULD be benefitial and win/win, but that's assuming that we actually GET them. If all we did was throw money at people and expect them to come up with something, we'd be out a lot of money and severely disappointed. Likewise, if we give the people money, but they can't come up with anything, then that's 'more wasted money into research' as most people probably would see it. We've got to be careful, and not assume all research will be positive.

Re:How long?

[ClippyHater]

Significantly better than putting a man on Uranus.

Whoosh and there goes my Karma, straight into a big, black hole (mods, please note there was no link to that which shall remain linkless on these last few words).

Re:How long?

[Anonymous Coward]

"America needs two things: humbleness and frugality. Humbleness, which is necessary for building friendship, and frugality with resources that are soon going to be scarce. "

Couldn't have put it better myself! Americans, please take note (I'm Australian)

Interesting, but check the source...

[TrueWest175]

The People's Daily is a state-run paper that is usually full of articles about how much students and peasants love the government and how Falun Gong is a dangerous cult. Interesting if they are accelerating the program, but the source is pretty sketchy.

Re:Interesting, but check the source...

[popeyethesailor]

Well did you read the article? The article quotes academicians, and they are pretty candid in admitting that they are not ready yet.

Even the headline says "Space Scientists Say China's Mars Probe 'Years Away'".

It definitely doesnt sound like propaganda.

Re:Interesting, but check the source...

[Anonymous Coward]

Consdering that the Chicoms cannot even build a copy of our oldest in use Aircraft Carrier (U.S.) I think they have a lot longer then a "few years" before they reach mars.

They are having trouble with the Steam Catapults and they want to play around in outerspace? Have they even put a man in orbit yet?

Re:Interesting, but check the source...

[Madcapjack]

Its "academics". But don't worry, I don't personally find it a big deal, but a lot of immature slashdotters do.

still, academics can be candid, but then what they say can be censored and/or altered afterwards by state-run media...or corporate media for that matter. though in our corporate media what scientists say is usually hacked up by non-experts trying to pre-digest it for the general populace.

Re:Interesting, but check the source...

[Anonymous Coward]

"They are having trouble with the Steam Catapults and they want to play around in outerspace? Have they even put a man in orbit yet? "

They can always get some help from the Russians. After all, they seem to have mastered military planes..uh, i mean submarines...domestic cars..nope, sorry, i meant potato crops...doh!
What HAVE they mastered? You know, i`m sure all this east/west cold war stuff was just bullshit dreamt up by the Pentagon to get more taxpayers money! Where, exactly was the threat from these backwards fuckers?

Re:Interesting, but check the source...

[Anonymous Coward]

The Washington Times is a non-state run paper that is usually full of articles about how much everyone and their dog love the government and how Islam is a dangerous cult.

Always check your source; just because it is the People Daily or the Washington Post, they're all as biased as each other.

Re:Interesting, but check the source...

[zero_offset]

Academician is valid English.

Re:Interesting, but check the source...

[Anonymous Coward]

As far as I can make out, after the Second World War the Russians started simply playing catch up with the Western world, and they did it by cloning. Nuclear Weapons designs, military aircraft, supersonic passenger aircraft, computers..everything. About the only areas they actually managed to master seem to have been spying, and beurocracy.

Re:Interesting, but check the source...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup, and... Falun Gong IS a dangerous cult, like most.

Re:Interesting, but check the source...

[Anonymous Coward]

This would be a good point... if the PLA was actually trying to develop a force projection navy.

As far as I know from reading public sources, the navy has repeatedly announced plans to build a carrier, but has spent most of its resources on coastal defense and short-range force projection, understandable priorities if one understands Chinese military priorities (hint: forget the Middle East). Until someone points out to me what China would actually use an aircraft carrier for, the delay shouldn't be too surprising. Part of it also seems political -- the CCP trying to avoid offensive military gestures.

Incidentally, they already have an aircraft carrier in Shenzhen. It's an old Soviet model now working as tourist attraction.

Re:Interesting, but check the source...

[evilWurst]

I trust it this time, but the parent poster does have a point. They could be printing only the positive quotes and leaving out the negative. Kind of like how in the US, every movie, no matter how crappy, has some reviewers supporting it and quoted on the box. China's got 4x the population of the US...I'm sure they can always find *someone* who has the opinion they're looking for.

Cynical, yes, but I'm only holding China to the same standards of cynicism as I do to the rest of the world :)

Re:Interesting, but check the source...

[danila]

The media plays several roles in the modern society. People in the US usually limit it to entertiment, sometimes mentioning informing citizens. But media can also motivate people. Don't you think that one of the reasons of Americans' apathy is their media? In China they understand that finding something positive and telling it to the people can be very helpful indeed.

And Falun Gong is a dangerous cult. The fact that they are also against the Chinese government doesn't change it. If the US government doesn't want to admit it, the reasons are the same as with the IRA - politics. Check any objective information (not FG's and not official) and you will probably realise that Falun Gong is a totalitarian sect, similar to Scientology and every other sect in existence.

Re:Interesting, but check the source...

[miu]

And Falun Gong is a dangerous cult. The fact that they are also against the Chinese government doesn't change it.

This is pretty much the opinion held by most Chinese I've spoken with about it. I don't think the US government has ever had anything good to say about FG, but freedom of religion makes for good propoganda and yet another human rights issue to beat up China over - so the US media has a tendency to whitewash the FG.

Re:Interesting, but check the source...

[MMDDay]

The People's Daily is a state-run paper that is usually full of articles about how much students and peasants love the government and how Falun Gong is a dangerous cult. Interesting if they are accelerating the program, but the source is pretty sketchy.

Um... no.... have you ever read the newspaper? What you said is simply untrue.

Re:Interesting, but check the source...

[Madcapjack]

I stand corrected and further educated.

Re:Interesting, but check the source...

[zero_offset]

Of course, that doesn't make it any more pleasant to the ear... :)

Seriously, as there is only one human race...

[D4MO]

..whay can't they all work together?

Re:Seriously, as there is only one human race...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm with you, don't know why you only got a score (1) for that - open source is developed by people from all nationalities, why shouldn't space exploration be developed under similar models?

I'm not talking about us all building space ships in our back gardens, but why does it have to be a nationality race,

If we are only going to be outnumbered by aliens anyway then why all the segmentation of our own species?

peace love and space exploration
a.non

Re:Seriously, as there is only one human race...

[Anonymous Coward]

The human race has never and will never work together.

Re:Seriously, as there is only one human race...

[RobotRunAmok]

..whay can't they all work together?

There's a bunch of folks in Tibet been wondering the same thing...

Re:Seriously, as there is only one human race...

[I don't want to spen]

Why can't they all work together?

Re:Seriously, as there is only one human race...

[Anonymous Coward]

If they work all together there would be only a waste of money and no progress, because of the lack of competition. China is a great, GREAT competitior. Just watch them.

Re:Seriously, as there is only one human race...

[DiggiLooDiggiLey]

True, but I think some competition is only good. I do agree that we should be able to work together. But most people doesn't think like that, and never will.

Re:Seriously, as there is only one human race...

[Madcapjack]

The human race has never and will never work togethr.

This is a dumb and/or ignorant comment. Cooperation is the hallmark of the human species. The degree to which we cooperate with one and another (even outside of the family) distinguishes us from all other species.

Re:Seriously, as there is only one human race...

[Anonymous Coward]

Just remeber,

We are the world.
We are the children.
We are the ones that make a brighter day, so let's start givin'

... shit. Come on man, the super powers of the 21st century have no love each other, and use space exploration as a big dick contest.
The chinese government hates the US government and vise versa, your little post on slashdot is like trying to extinguish the sun with a drop of water.

Re:Seriously, as there is only one human race...

[zero_offset]

Not everyone agrees about (1) what should be done, (2) how it should be done, (3) who should do it, (4) who should pay for it, (5) or who should be in charge, and whole slew of other things.

Pretty simple. Basic human nature, life in the real world, etc etc etc.

Re:Seriously, as there is only one human race...

[Anonymous Coward]

So we're not actually at all distinguished from the other species then, are we? Because as far as I can see, we're a very very very long way from cooporating as a species. We've had more wars in the last century than at any other time in history. The rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer, and the law makers are introducing more and more represive laws the world over. In fact, the only thing we do seem to cooperate on is the globalisation of exploitation. Go figure.

So no, we're not a very clever bunch after all.

Re:Seriously, as there is only one human race...

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, as there is only one human race... ..whay can't they all work together?

You must be delusional, dude.

Here is the answer.

Find the answer for the folloging:

• ...why can't they all share their resources?
• ...why can't they all share their technology to fight diseases instead of selling drugs at inflated prices?
• ...why can't they work towards benefit, rather than trying to exploit farmers by forcing them to grow patented-crops and later genetically crippled-to-enforce-the-patent crops in impoverished nations, so that we can squeeze more profit.
• ...ad nauseum

Re:Seriously, as there is only one human race...

[JahToasted]

because there are too many dumbasses screwing things up.

Re:Seriously, as there is only one human race...

[mickwd]

Sigh.....only on Slashdot could some fruitcake moderate this as flamebait.

Re:Seriously, as there is only one human race...

[pokeyburro]

Cooperation and competition are both hallmarks of the human species. If only cooperation worked, communism/socialism would've worked a helluva lot better than it did.

So, OK, cooperation, competition, and self-interest are hallmarks of the human species. And laziness. And hubris. And greed. And sex. And violence. And donuts.

Re:Seriously, as there is only one human race...

[Lemmy Caution]

Sure, as soon as all of NASA and the Euro Space crowd learns Mandarin, I'm sure that they can all work together as one big happy space family.

Oh, you meant in English, didn't you? With job creation in your home town? Hmmn, that could be a problem.

Re:Seriously, as there is only one human race...

[Oort Cloud]

Hmmm.... I don't know about the rest of the world but, I seems that most other species on this planet cooperate better with the rest of the environment around them then we humans do. Most other species live in symbioses with one another. Apparent or not. So it seems that the degree of cooperation does distinguish us from most other species. Our degree is lower then most species. When was the last time you saw or heard of a pride of lions trying to wipe out other herds of lions in an act to dominate the savannah?

Re:Seriously, as there is only one human race...

[Madcapjack]

Groups of lions have no need to dominate the entire savannah. But they do compete. Sometimes they even fight it out.

Most cooperation in the wild occurs within biological kin groups or within particular symbiotic relationships between species.

Humans do cooperate. We wouldn't have been able to do anything we have done if we didn't. We couldn't have flown to the moon for instance. It took cooperation. But if you mean cooperation between groups, then no we aren't very cooperative. Or haven't been.

This is great

[sukottoX]

I think this is the best thing for the future of space exploration. Competition will lead to innovation, and hopefully to added funding. I think when the American population sees China making great progress towards exploring Mars, there will be more of a demand for American exploration.

Re:This is great

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, it's great. Maybe all the unemployed people in America can go off to China to become astronauts. Sweet!

Re:This is great

[sirmikester]

Yea, a renewed space race could be a good thing, but I think it would be better if we collaborated instead of competed. NASA needs more partners in space not competitors.

Re:This is great

[Anonymous Coward]

Cooperation in space makes for nice photographs but it's a big fucking failure. Mir. The Iss.

They should cut out the handshaking and get on with the science.

I don't wish them harm...

[PhilHibbs]

but going by China's record on safety, I expect there's going to be some pretty fireworks.

Re:I don't wish them harm...

[Anonymous Coward]

What record? There aren't many Chinese technological disasters/errors that spring immediately to mind - no rockets falling out the sky, or even planes for that matter...

Re:I don't wish them harm...

[Anonymous Coward]

Heck, going by China's reputation on fireworks, those'll sure be pretty...

Re:I don't wish them harm...

[Anonymous Coward]

What happened on Valentine's day 1996?

Re:I don't wish them harm...

[Anonymous Coward]

This:
In the predawn darkness of Feb. 14, 1996, a three-stage Long March booster
rocket lifted off from the Xichang Satellite Launching Center in southwest
China. Its payload was a Loral-made satellite designed to provide direct
broadcast television services to Latin America.

Seconds into its flight, the rocket veered off course, burst into a massive
fireball and smashed into a village a few milles away.

Finally

[Eric(b0mb)Dennis]

First the moon, and now mars..

Could China possibly be trying to hype up its space program to scare other countries? I mean, it just seems kind of odd that all of the sudden, all of these stories about China and space are surfacing..

I'd like to see a mission before I believe any of it.. seems like China is just preparing for a cold war

But who knows

If this is accurate...

[GearheadX]

This is the best news we've heard for NASA in a couple of decades. There's nothing like a little compeition with one of the 'evil empires' of the world to get our Congressmen in a spending mood.

We went to the Moon so that the USSR couldn't get there first, ne?

Re:If this is accurate...

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it was because the USSR had already beaten the US into space and already sent a probe to the moon. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to troll here or anything, but this was easily the single biggest driving force behind the US sending men to the moon.

Re:If this is accurate...

[Anonymous Coward]

There's nothing like a little compeition with one of the 'evil empires' of the world to get our Congressmen in a spending mood.

They are already in too much of a spending mood, hence the budget deficit.

Re:If this is accurate...

[Anonymous Coward]

Why in the world would you want our congressmen in a spending mood? Aren't they already spending enough?

Re:If this is accurate...

[Krandor3]

It was still the competition with USSR that was the catalyst for our moon program. If we did not have that competition we probably would have never gone. Now with competition with China, that could help jump-start the program again which IMO is a good thing.

Re:If this is accurate...

[GearheadX]

Money is but a measurement of faith in one's nation. If we're going to have a space program, I would much prefer that it be a well funded one.

The more I read of China

[the_Bionic_lemming]

I'm not so sure this is just about getting to Mars and the Moon. I think China is actually attempting to do what we did to the soviet union and trying to get us to escalate in spending in order to quicken an economic collapse. I don't think we're ready for another "cold war" just yet.

Re:The more I read of China

[Dumbush]

Hmmm interesting, but why now? Are they betting on Bush's inability to maintain a budget?

Re:The more I read of China

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. Benefits of long-range manned missions are minuscule compared to the costs. It's just a big pissing contest, just like space race during the cold war.

Re:The more I read of China

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry, but this applies to China as well. China is just now getting onto its feet in terms of its economy. Their special "commerce" (read: capitalist) areas in Shanghai and Hong Kong are just now starting to create the economic benefits China will see in the next several years. The absolute last thing they need or want at this point, is to get into a cold war with *anybody*, as that basically kills the growth trend that they're starting to see.

And this doesn't even get into the fact that the US and China are now economically dependent on each other, and having one country collapse economically will basically maim the other country's economy as well. MFN (Most Favored Nation) trade status, WTO status, all of this is more valuable to China right now, than getting into a cold war with their trade partner.

Re:The more I read of China

[TopShelf]

That makes no sense for China - there's no way they could run the US into the ground as happened to the Soviet Union, and if they're going to escalate spending, they'd be better off focusing on mass employment programs to keep their rural population from getting more upset about the disparity between rural and urban economic conditions.

A nice, US-style interstate highway system or something like that would be a more appropriate way of opening the financial floodgates...

Re:The more I read of China

[Anonymous Coward]

Not everyone thinks like an American. There could be any number of reasons why they are doing this.

I think it's great and TBH I hope they make it (if not someone else). It makes a change from countries making new technology just to kill each other.

Re:The more I read of China

[Anonymous Coward]

>[...]in order to quicken an economic collapse :)))

It's a joke that space research spending could cause this. You always get something back from research.

Wars and paranoia could help it though, and China has nothing to do with them since the US alone is pretty well favorizing their own paranoia for example.
Remember China has even tried to prevent the US from invading Irak, btw reducing US military spendings

GET A CLUE :)

Re:The more I read of China

[Eccles]

Are they betting on Bush's inability to maintain a budget?

Now that's a gimme if I ever heard of one...

Re:The more I read of China

[el-spectre]

Interesting thought, but a defense buildup and a space buildup are radically different in terms of cost. As I recall, the entire NASA budget is just a few billion dollars/year, and the defense budget is in the hundreds of billions.

Add to that the fact that China just can't compete economically with the US yet. They are getting better, but it's (a 'spend the US into destruction strategy) just to heavy a burden right now.

Hell, the US had an overall very prosperous economy, and it still took 40 years to do in the USSR...

Re:The more I read of China

[silentbozo]

I think China is actually attempting to do what we did to the soviet union and trying to get us to escalate in spending in order to quicken an economic collapse.

Wasn't there an Arthur C. Clarke short story about just that? It was only a few pages long, but essentially it ends with the Chinese having economically exhausted both the Russians and the Americans, and getting ready to send ships out of the solar system... Or maybe it was a James P. Hogan story?

Space race

[sql*kitten]

This puts the China-India space race and the China-USA space race in a very different light and clearly indicates that China plans to play with the big boys of Mars exploration.

It's not a race in any meaningful sense right now - China has only said it intends to do something that the US has already done, after all. It will become considerably more interesting if a non-NASA space agency - the Chinese, the Indians, the Europeans - announces that it fully intends to land and recover a manned Mars mission before NASA can. My money's on the Chinese - they're the ones with the most to prove, Europe is too apathetic and India cannot devote the resources to it that China's command economy can. As to whether they beat NASA... well that really boils down to the man in the White House. The US/Soviet Empire space race was all about trying to convince the nonaligned nations which political system was the best... it wasn't about scientists competing purely for prestige, it was a battle of national Will. If the US decides that it is going to be impressive enough to take the lead in getting to Mars, then the Chinese would face some stiff competition. Maybe if Russia had more money it could partner with ESA, make it a 3-way race, maybe Japan could join that consortium.

Re:Space race

[Surak]

Right... I don't think given the current state of the space program, in light of the Columbia disaster, and some of NASA's previous debacles on Mars (read: mars rover) that NASA is going to even bother trying to beat China. I don't think the average American cares that much, and I doubt Bush cares that much at this point. But then again, we might not have Bush in the White House in a little over year. We'll see how the elections go. :)

Re:Space race

[turgid]

In that case, the USA's days as the leading nation on earth (financially, technologically etc.) are numbered. As they choose to rest on their laurels, they will stagnate and then wither. It's sad to see the vitality disappear from what was once such a great country. Such short-sightedness will end in tears.

Re:Space race

[Krandor3]

They probably do not care right now since it is mostly talk. When China starts sending men into space and especially if they start sending probes to Mars, people will start to take notice. The first time around it was Gagarin that really made everybody sit up and take notice. It is very possible that a major China mission could have the time type of effect especially if it looks like they are going to do something the US has not yet done. That is when the American people will care.

Re:Space race

[Anonymous Coward]

the Chinese, the Indians, the Europeans - announces that it fully intends to land and recover a manned Mars mission before NASA can.

the Inidans? WTF!?*#$

Are you on dope? Leave "the Indians" out, if you are even half sane. Why?

1. Indians do not have even a fraction of the money power that the others could cough up if needed.
2. Indians do not have a fraction of the technology: Don't show me their high-tech stuff because they are all built with off-the-shelf components for which they do not have the technology.
3. Indians take too long to complete any project. Look how long their light combat aircraft took to reach the state of a test-flight stage. That is what you get for fucking around with the stupid delta wing designs instead of trying something more practical.
4. The Indians can easily be brought down if they form a threat to our supremacy.

Re:Space race

[Anonymous Coward]

the Inidans? WTF!?*#$

I bet you are from Pakistan?
BTW, its Indians.

Re:Space race

[Tablizer]

and India cannot devote the resources to it that China's command economy can

A bigger problem for India is that all their technical people are in the US

Re:SARS in MARS!!

[bad_fx]

Maybe they read slashdot and are now trying to return it? :)

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

in the spirit of science

[rexguo]

I hope China will work with NASA and ESO in a co-operative level instead of with a competitive nature. It will be a shameful waste of Earth's, humans' and economic resources to duplicate what NASA has done (i.e. those that have true scientific value) rather than a I-can-do-it-too. Also, with China's wages problems (mainly those in the agricultural industry) yet seeing results, why is it spending such insane sums of money in an area that will not bring tangible benefits to its people ans standard of living?

Re:in the spirit of science

[reallocate]

Going by current experience (ISS) any effort at international cooperation will just bog down progress. Budgets will explode and accomplishments will implode.

Also, I've no real idea what China is spending on space, but it is a common myth that "insane sums of money" are needed. No nation has ever allocated more than a small fraction of its budget to space. Even if China were to end its space efforts and give all the money to "the people" it wouldn't raise living standards. The last thing a government should do to improve the permanent welfare of its citizens is give them money.

Re:in the spirit of science

[sql*kitten]

I hope China will work with NASA and ESO in a co-operative level instead of with a competitive nature.

It's a historic fact: humans get more done faster when competing against someone or something.

It's just the way we are. Our minds are hardwired by evolution to be motivated by competitive challenges.

shameful waste of Earth's, humans' and economic resources to duplicate what NASA has done

Is it a shameful waste of resources to teach this year's class the same as what last year's class were taught? No, of course not. The fact that it has been done before is irrelevant - it needs to be done again so more people can have the experience, and then they can use that experience in the "real world", which is doing new science.

why is it spending such insane sums of money in an area that will not bring tangible benefits to its people ans standard of living?

Because China understands that if it wants to feed its people it's going to have to automate food production more, which means fewer people in the fields, which means they have to be found new jobs to do. From fields to factories to offices - we did that in the West, now China must do it too.

Re:in the spirit of science

[Anonymous Coward]

its ESA

European Space Agency

this just in

[t_aug]

China has scrapped its mars program to sooner attain its goal of putting a human on the solar surface. Sources quoted as saying "take that you capatalist pigs."

Re:this just in

[Dan-DAFC]

Bush has already got that one covered.

Re:this just in

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, it goes without saying, the US will beat the Red Chinks to it.

Where's China..?

[Larsing]

China is light years away from launching Mars exploration programmes

I didn't know China was in a different solar system(!).
Would that be Alpha Centauri or Ursa Minor Beta..?

Re:Where's China..?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ursa Minor Beta is home to the publishing company behind the wild success, "Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy". More popular than the "Celestial Home Care Omnibus", better selling than "Fifty-three More Things to Do in Zero Gravity", and more controversial than Oolon Coluphid's trilogy of philosophical blockbusters, "Where God Went Wrong", "Some More of God's Greatest Mistakes", and "Who Is This God Person Anyway?"

Re:Where's China..?

[zero_offset]

But I bet the ship they develop will be able to do the Kessel Run in under 12 parsecs!

Re:Where's China..?

[Luyseyal]

I think Star Wars material has explained away this Lucas goof by saying there's an harder route through the Kessel Run that's much shorter, but also much more dangerous.

Anyone have a reference?
-l

Re:Where's China..?

[zero_offset]

I've heard that explanation before, too. Not that anyone believes he actually meant it when he wrote it. Regardless, it just seemed appropriate given the light-years-as-time comment.

Re:Where's China..?

[kerempuh]

No, China is where it always existed. The cited sentence tried to tell us that Centaurans or Ursabetians are launching Mars exploration programmes just now ;)

Put the RED back in Red Planet [EOM]

[aaronlev]

Sorry .. groan. I'm sure some news reporter already got to that one.

Re:Put the RED back in Red Planet [EOM]

[Anonymous Coward]

and they will navigate the planet in a RED ROVER

Re:Put the RED back in Red Planet [EOM]

[Anonymous Coward]

Red Rover
Bend Over
And let SEXY TAKE OOOVVVEEEEERRRRRRR!!!!!

Lameness filter encountered. Post aborted!
Reason: Don't use so many caps. It's like YELLING.

Ehh

[Eric(b0mb)Dennis]

China: Hey USA, we're going to send stuff to moon! Neeneer

USA: Uhh, we've already done that

China: Hey, USA, we're going to send stuff to mars!! neeneer

USA: Right-o, Mr. Red

China seems to be all talk and no substance. Personally, it seems as if they are just trying to tell the rest of the world "Look, we can do it too!" but never actually doing it.

And I don't like how so many people consider a 'space-race' a good thing... the USSR/USA 'space-race' did speed up technological developement in that department, sure.. but the goal was for the totally wrong reason, and it happened wayyy too fast.

We're going to the moon! ( 10 years later ) We're on the moon, hurray! ( 5 years later ) Uhh, we're on the moon.. I want to go home

It seems like soon as we beat the USSR and reached our goal, being that there was nothing worthwhile for the government to invest in (winning a space race = instant world respect and nationality rises considerably, i guess) so it just went stagnant.

The government should have a program that helps and directs corporations getting into space directly, and showing them how a profit could be made... that's where the real ticket is

10. PROFIT!

Re:Ehh

[sql*kitten]

The government should have a program that helps and directs corporations getting into space directly, and showing them how a profit could be made... that's where the real ticket is

I think you might like Robert Zubrin's books. He's an engineer by profession who advocates colonization of Mars, and as an engineer he has some pretty realistic ideas about how to do it. But one of his other proposals is mining He3 on the moon. We know it's there. A fusion reactor running on He3 would be far more efficient than one running on D-T, because you could extract the power by inductance directly into electricity rather than by heating steam to turn a generator. He does some calculations of how much the substance is worth at current electricity prices (I don't have my copy here son I can't quote the numbers, but they are large), and once fusion is demonstrated as being usable with D-T, it should be straightforward enough to raise capital for mining He3 on the moon commercially.

Re:Ehh

[evilWurst]

I agree with all of that. However, I think it's a (technological) generation or two further away than others are predicting. Consider: first we need to get D-T fusion working. As soon as that happens, simply EVERYONE is going to want to use it. Everyone's going to want He3 fusion too, but supply/demand are going to make it hellishly more expensive than the D-T fusion, to the extent that any one country with a monopoly on supply might be using all of it for themselves.

At the same time, the D-T tech is going to mature faster, due to it's proportionally larger user base. Although a lot of knowledge will work on both variants, there's a certain amount of design finesse that comes only by large scale repetition and tinkering. Gains made in improving D-T fusion will generate feedback - better/cheaper/safer D-T fusion means more demand for D-T fusion, which means ever better D-T fusion implementations. He3 fusion designs will catch up, but slowly. I tend to think that a single-nation monopoly on He3 would slow its development relative to D-T even more - fewer minds/viewpoints working on the project.

In summary: I don't think getting He3 from the moon is worth it now, and I don't think it's even going to be worth it soon - maybe 20 years from now, if we get some sort of fusion working this afternoon. The only reason to go claim that resource immediately is to try for a monopoly, but it's not something that can be easily monopolized when there will be three (US/Russia/China), four (plus EU?), or even five (plus India?) players equally able to get there. I think the Chinese push is simply to be *able* to do the job for that later time where it'll be worthwhile, not do the job right now. I'm much more interested in the Mars race than the moon race.

Re:Zealots

[arivanov]

They are not. They have nuclear weapons as well and this is what any exploration of near space is all about for the time being. It is a reminder that "we can loft some sh***" on your head when you least expect it.

Success?

[zebs]

I wonder if they'll have the same track record as the US with regard to mars missions?

Re:Success?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe one half of the design team will work in Mandarin and the other half in Cantonese...

My biggest fear:

[Jonsey]

I only worry they'll go to Europa, against the old mandate, and start drilling. Once the shambling plant-thing comes up and kills them, then the US will be laughing... Yeah.

Thank you Arthur.

Mars - The RED planet?

[KaVu]

Seems like in some years we will call mars the red planet for several reasons....

Is this a joke?

[dreadnougat]

Is it not evident, especially after these last few years (cliche, I know, but true nevertheless), that there will always be people who are simply NOT compatible, in any way?

It would be NICE if we could all just get along and work together... but it's simply not going to happen, at least not any time in the near future.

But China can save money of safety.

[MongooseCN]

Judging from it's history, China doesn't have to spend as much money of safety devices and testing.

Chinese Official: You! Citizen #32185 have been lucky enough to be chosen to fly to Mars!
Citizen: Wh.. what?
CO: Put him in the cannon!
C: What's Mars?
CO: FIRE!
BOOM
Technician: Looks like this one didn't make it to orbit either.
CO: More gun powder! You! Citizen #32186 have been lucky...

Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

that China plans to play with the big boys of Mars exploration.

Chinese like to play with themselves? Well measuring in how little time they needed to pass this through should give the other big boys the creeps and speed things up everywhere.

I might go to the moon before I die. Thanks to our communist friends.

No Race, Just Media Hype

[reallocate]

China's "expanding" space program consists primarily of plans and conjecture. Calling this is "space race" is more than a little silly.

China is using 30-40 year old Soviet technology in their attempt to accomplish things other nations accomplished 30-40 years ago. I'm happy they are trying, but this isn't much of a race.

Re:No Race, Just Media Hype

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh.. How old was the Space Shuttle again? 30 years? Well, it was developed in great parts by a former Nazi (von Braun) but that doesn't make it better than soviet technology.

Re:No Race, Just Media Hype

[confused one]

Actually they're using modern technology recently provided by Boeing et. al.

Re:No Race, Just Media Hype

[reallocate]

Von Braun, who died in 1977, had little, if any, involvement in the shuttle design. He made his mark prior to that.

In point of fact, the Shuttle is better than Soviet technology, but you obviously don't know or care, so why bother trying to tell you.

However, the point is that there can't be a race if China is simply offering conjecture (not commitments) to do things others did 30-40 years ago.

Re:No Race, Just Media Hype

[reallocate]

China's planned manned orbiter is a copy of the Soviet orbiter.

Re:No Race, Just Media Hype

[Anonymous Coward]

China is using 30-40 year old Soviet technology in their attempt to accomplish things other nations accomplished 30-40 years ago.

Copying Russia got the US into space, why shouldn't China start out the same way.

Re:No Race, Just Media Hype

[reallocate]

>> Copying Russia got the US into space...

Hoo ha. That's funny.

What are you talking about? Mercury, Gemini, Apollo, Shuttle, Atlas, Titan, Saturn, SkyLab, Mariner, Voyager, Viking, etc., etc., were copies of Soviet hardware??

Please.

Re:No Race, Just Media Hype

[PortWineBoy]

Copying Russia got the US into space, why shouldn't China start out the same way.

Copying the Germans got everyone into space. Were it not for the "rocket-scientist grab" that occurred at the end of WWII, neither party would have gotten anywhere for quite some time.

I disagree with the OP as well. Soviet technology is quite robust. What better model for a fledgling space program that doesn't have to worry about accidents condemning them in the court of citizen's approval.

Re:No Race, Just Media Hype

[Anonymous Coward]

this is just a dog and pony show. china's space program has nothing to do with mars and everything to do with perfecting an ICBM system.

Re:No Race, Just Media Hype

[BiteMeFanboy]

China is using 30-40 year old Soviet technology in their attempt to accomplish things other nations accomplished 30-40 years ago

So they'll at least be successful.

Re:No Race, Just Media Hype

[JahToasted]

Why not? The Saturn V is 30-40 years old and it got to the moon, right? And your super-duper-high-tech Space shuttle never got out of LEO.

Re:No Race, Just Media Hype

[tgd]

You're wrong. It doesn't matter how old the stuff is, or what they're trying to do. They win if we don't participate. We can't critisize them using 30 year old technology to do what we did 30 years ago, because we're not even using that technology to do it today, much less anything new.

Re:No Race, Just Media Hype

[Anonymous Coward]

In point of fact, the Shuttle is better than Soviet technology, but you obviously don't know or care, so why bother trying to tell you.

Better in that it's more expense or better in that it's less reliable? I could agree that it isn't as technologically advanced, but neither are wheels, but we're still using them.

For basic LEO and moonshots, Soviet tech is more than adequate. It's also a great way for the Chinese to cut their teeth on this type of tech and build a good base of experienced people. The moon also makes an excellent place to test things like bases, etc. that would be destined for Mars.

We like to think of Mars as some kind of almost Earth, but between the low gravity (1/3 Earth, so 2x the moon), the low atmospheric pressure (0.01 of Earth's) and lack of magnetic field (no protection against the nastier solar radiation), it's much more similar to the moon than the Earth.

Re:No Race, Just Media Hype

[reallocate]

It's not a race because the race is already over. Humans in orbit, probes to the Moon, Mars and Venus, and humans on the Moon all happened in the 60's.

The Saturn V was built to carry the Apollo to the Moon. It did that quite well. The Shuttle (neither mine nor "super-duper-tech") was designed in the 70's to (A) be reusable, and (b) ferry people and cargo to and from a space station. That's all. It was never designed to do anything else. I'm not a fan of the shuttle, but don't disparage it for failing to do something it was never intended to do.

Re:No Race, Just Media Hype

[evilWurst]

Sure it's a race, just not against who you think. If they get to a man in space soon, they'll beat the European Union, India, and Japan. Passing the EU is worth a lot of prestige, given that those nations once ruled most of the world (including chunks of China!). And getting to the moon means they'll have beaten the EU and Russia, tying the current space champions. Lots of prestige there, obviously. Even though it's already been done, it's obviously still a tough problem if no one else has done it in all this time, and even if they can't surpass every nation, they can surpass n-1 nations now and have at least a chance on the mars race.

Plus it's a good excuse to advance their local expertise in aerospace materials and computer tech, both of which could get them competitive in the global market for planes and chips.

Re:No Race, Just Media Hype

[confused one]

Yes, it is. The guidance system and propulsion were fixed; however, with American help -- seems they couldn't get it to work right and Boeing et. al. were only too happy to help...

Re:No Race, Just Media Hype

[reallocate]

What am I wrong about? I just said there's no race. If there is a race, who's the competition?

You're right, though, in that the U.S. should have established a permanent base on the Moon in the 70's, put people on Mars in the 80's, and built a real space station instead of the current Tinker Toy contraption.

Re:No Race, Just Media Hype

[reallocate]

Everything you say is accurate, but this isn't a race because no one else is even trying to be competitive, and because it's all been done before.

Looks like NASA may finally get a kick in the butt

[iJed]

This may be finally what makes the US government sit up and take notice. Hopefully they will increase NASA funding so that they can finally send a manned mission to Mars. I'm sure the offshoot technology and the inspiration for such a mission would be well worth the cost. Even so skimming a little off the military funding and putting it into something valid such as space exploration is far better than killing people.

OTOH 1.5 gigapeople is a lot

[leonbrooks]

Tax at $1 a head on 1.5GP netts you a lot more spendable than $1 a head on 300MP.

Re:OTOH 1.5 gigapeople is a lot

[alannon]

Tax at $1 a head on 1.5GP netts you a lot more spendable than $1 a head on 300MP.

GDP Per Capita in US: purchasing power parity - $36,300 (2001 est.)
GDP Per Capita in China: purchasing power parity - $4,600 (2002 est.)

Source is CIA World Factbook
Do the math.

Re:OTOH 1.5 gigapeople is a lot

[timeOday]

Our GDP is $10e12, theirs is $6e12, i.e. they make 60%. But wait a minute, scientists and engineers dont make six figures in China, do they? Figuring rougly $100K for scientists and engineers of the required calibre in the US, China can afford the same number at $60K, or twice as many at $30K. Considering US graduate schools are full of Chinese students, their talent is or will soon be at least as good as ours.

Re:OTOH 1.5 gigapeople is a lot

[Anonymous Coward]

And then they will move here, to the US. THey dont make a real production car. The dont make aircraft by themselves. In fact, they cant do anything without foreigners showing them how and holding thier hands.

You really think China is going to up and kick the west's ass? You really think? SHORT SELL. thats right - buy a ton of stock, buy every company you can on a short sell. Oh, no, the fearsome CHinese will ruin American and the West!

Yeah right, and monkies my fly out of my butt.

And this pseudo math is laughable. GDP essentially boils down to quality of life. $4,000 GDP is akin to automaton slavery. Nothing good comes of those systems and it isnt sustainable.

More crap from self deprecating western world hating support the underdog bullshit artists.

Re:OTOH 1.5 gigapeople is a lot

[leonbrooks]

Do the math.

$36300/P*0.3GP == roughly $10G

$4600/P*1.3GP == roughly $6G (6.something if you include more than "mainland" China)

But the point I presented was $300M vs $1500M ($1300M if only "mainland").

Re:OTOH 1.5 gigapeople is a lot

[timeOday]

Actually I'm pretty sure you're right... in the LONG RUN. Sure the Soviet Union finally crapped out, but look at how long it took and how much misery and grief it caused first.

And I think China is going about it in a more sustainable way... they seem to have a market economy, though with few civil rights. So things could take a loooong time time come around.

Re:Space race the troll was right: this is crap

[Anonymous Coward]

people. read this reply to the article. the article is from a unreliable propaganda newspaper and evreything this sql-kitten says about this false story is all conjecture, masqeraded as fact, all based on a stream of though forked off of a bullshit story.

the troll is right: this is baseless conjecture crap.

and the slashbots all believe it. amazing.

Land, Land and more land

[engineerdude]

They're trying to find new homes for the 20 million people displaced by the new dam....

wait, this sounds familiar.....

[unclefungus]

"the first phase would send a Mars orbiter to examine and survey the Red Planet; the second phase will involve wheeled robotic probes " Kind of like deja vu (spelled right?), but with out the metric>standard conversion problem.

Re:wait, this sounds familiar.....

[CaptnMArk]

> metric>standard conversion problem.

what conversion? metric is standard.

You probably mean the conversion between metric and obsolete.

You need 2 teams for any sport

[dreadlord76]

One baseball team without any one to play with would get pretty boring. Same with Science, exploration, etc. The fact that China is trying to get to Mars is the best thing that can happen to space exploration.
If China beats US, then US will really wakeup, smell the coffee, and decide how to take the lead back.
If US beats China, it would mean a revitalized space program, and a much better chance for some real space technology. Solar Power Satellites may become a reallty, for example.
And if US and China ties in the race, it would be the time to raise the bar. How about a permanently manned Mars/Moon Station, extracting what we need from local resources. It just means that we would be that much closer to getting off this small rock in the unfashionable western spiral arm of the Mily Way. man kind gets closer to move off this hunk of rock permanently,

Re:You need 2 teams for any sport

[Anonymous Coward]

If China beats US, then...

First of all, that is not gonna happen. The US is the world greatest economic and military power --note the 'economic' part, that is the important one.

If China beats US, then US will really wakeup, smell the coffee, and decide how to take the lead back

• Use our super-economic power to slowly acquire all the corporations/agencies from the Chinese.
• Much easier, sabotage the Chinese projects using our extensive (.A.I.C) network.

• Your comparison with sports (e.g. baseball) is flawed, for one team is playing with clubs and muskets while the other has lasers, em-discharge and anti-matter weapons.

Re:You need 2 teams for any sport

[A Bugg]

well thats not entirely correct they are still working the kinks out of the anti-matter weapons, i've said too much alrea.....

Re:Zealots

[leonbrooks]

They have nuclear weapons [...] can loft some sh***" on your head when you least expect it

Maybe they'll build Bang-Bang?

Re:Space race time to get rich then tsarkon report

[Anonymous Coward]

well. the S&P was up 10% this quarter. thats cash for our companies. and if its so bleak and dim, you can get rich. short sell. short sell the united states. buy shorts on any stock you can get your hands on.

thats right, bet against america. 100 years of trends says you're wrong but if you know so much, show us all and GET RICH.

you see, your negative outlook on the world's and the US future is just crap. you are a disgruntled unintelligent unsuccessful bitch who paits the gloom and doom to feel better about his own failure.

but you arent stupid enough to try and short sell the US of A. not even the most twisted self deprecating anti american is that dumb.

fool.

E.E.E.T.

[jabbadabbadoo]

Before long, Mars will be populated with tiny yellow men and a bunch of chicken.

Any E.T's travelling by Mars the next 40 years will be laughing their ass off.

Race To Your History Books Before Posting

[reallocate]

>> I don't think...NASA is going to even bother trying to beat China.

Ummm, NASA has already done everything China says it wants to do, at least 30 years ago. The Apollo missions were preceded by several unmanned missions (Surveyor, et al) throughout the 60's; the Viking landings on Mars in the 70's were preceded by Mariner missions. (The Soviets didn't pull off a manned lunar landing, but did land several unmanned mobile explorers on the lunar surface in the 70's.)

If this is a race, it finished a long time ago.

Re:Race To Your History Books Before Posting

[Cyno]

You don't think we'll get interested again if China starts putting mining colonies on the Moon and Mars? Or do you mean the race finished for Americans a long time ago? I agree with that one.

We already think its over, it has only just begun.

Re:Race To Your History Books Before Posting

[reallocate]

Sure, the U.S. will get interested again if China puts people on the Moon. After all, it was only a failure of political will that kept us from putting a permanent base on the Moon in the '70s and people on Mars in the 80's. We should have done all that, whether or not anyone else was in the game.

But that doesn't mean there's a race going on today. China is playing catchup. They can use cloned Soviet hardware from the 60's to put people in orbit, and maybe, just maybe, do a circumlunar mission. But, since the Soviets never went to the Moon, China will have to develop and use its own hardware for that.

Re:Race To Your History Books Before Posting

[Cyno]

Well, they are starting to design and build some rather nice CPUs now. I don't know much about where this technology comes from, but I think there are a lot of smart people all over the planet. I don't think Russia's technology is any better than US technology or India's technology. Today anyone can learn enough to do almost anything on the internet.

Re:Race To Your History Books Before Posting

[reallocate]

You don't need modern CPU's to get to the Moon. You need large boosters, working life support systems, storable propellant that can be counted on to lift the crew off the Moon, and a heat shield that will protect the reentry vehicle wehn it hits Earth's atmosphere at 26,000 mph.

The Chinese are quite capable of building all those, but they have not done so, yet. Their current LEO vehicle is a moderate adaptation of the orbital vehicle used by the Soviets in the 60's. (Today's Russian vehicles share a similar lineage.)

Since you can get to the Moon and back using 1960's technology, all this is evidence that space travel shouldn't be held hostage to bleeding edge technology.

Jupiter-like planet found in outer space...

[somberlain]

Good for them! But who will first find life in starfield HD70642? Wired.Com has this about life-possibilities in outer space. British astronomers say they found the first sun-like star with a giant gas planet in an orbit similar to Jupiter's, which leaves plenty of room for worlds like Earth and Mars.

Re:Space race time to get rich then tsarkon report

[Anonymous Coward]

As much as this is intended as a troll, I agree fully. It seems this guy has his own problems and I certainly do not think the US is going to disappear any time soon.

Re:Space race - OMFG the preaching begins tsarkon

[Madcapjack]

Axe to Grind. In fact, does this Anon. Coward even have an axe left?

More Power To Them

[aerojad]

As long as humans get into space, I could care less under what flag or what government it is for, just as long as we get out there... and then resist having a war over it.

Re:More Power To Them

[Anonymous Coward]

Yea... too bad those NAZIs lost the war. We would have one world government and all the best space scientists. I'm sure there would be a base on the moon now too.

Mostly for sending the Jews to.

Moron.

Re:More Power To Them

[aerojad]

I think you misunderstood the German's rocket potential. They were firing stuff from Germany to Paris, which is not quite to the moon and back.

Better luck next time!

Re:More Power To Them

[oni]

aerojad, your history teacher is on the phone. She want's to speak to you and she sounds really upset.

Re:More Power To Them

[Big_Breaker]

Yea silly Von Braun and his small rockets hitting London from Germany... such a small technological feat for the time and I'm sure he'd never amount to much.

I bet if US ever put its resources at his disposal he could never put a man in space... oh wait that's what happened.

The US took most of the German scientists while Russia was able to claim a few. The best part was how neither cared about war crimes and Nazi leanings. Hey we were at war! (er a cold war)

Re:More Power To Them

[aerojad]

So if the nazis won the war, eliminating a cold war between the U.S. and Russia, then why would Germany want to go into space at all? Also I believe Germany would have been much more intrested in devloping ICBMs before devloping rockets to go to the moon. They were after all using the tech for war, not exploration or competition.

The Assyrians

[Anonymous Coward]

"The Assyrians were known as brutal, army people who smashed everything in their fights and their battles," said the museum's director, Donny George.

I wonder who can hold that title today...

Re:The Assyrians

[Anonymous Coward]

"The Assyrians were known as brutal, army people who smashed everything in their fights and their battles," said the museum's director, Donny George.

Yep, those Iraqis are some pretty barbaric f*cks. Who loots their own national museum? Maybe they thought all the artwork there was un-Islamic.

Re:The Assyrians

[Oort Cloud]

I think what the poster was trying to say was the reference to the large destruction of Buddhist artifacts by many countries' government, most notably China. Take for example the building of dams that flood old temples with little to no effort to recover or remove the artifacts by the goverment.

Space Race?

[fohidac]

wouldn't it be cheaper, quicker and simpler if china, india and the usa just had a good old-fashioned pissing contest instead?

Re:Space race - OMFG the preaching begins tsarkon

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you read the sqlkittens comment? It is a made up piece of junk on a propagandist garbage article. This is like a flypaper story for america bashing. And when one guy has the fucking balls to stand up to the Communisty er I mean "community" - he gets shot down.

This is why true democracy doesnt work and a republic is a better model. Mobocratic groupthink is not a meritocracy. It doesnt even have to be ration or true. It just has to be what everyone else thinks.

Sad.

China needs partners

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure whether China will be able to become a real competitor in the space race. Just look how much money and effort the USA, Russia and the EU have spent in the past. Running a space program is far from affordable and a great deal of expertise is needed. China needs to cooperate with Japan, for example, in order to become a real space program competitor. Nevertheless, I wish them the best of luck.

Anonymous Coward Horsey!

[Anonymous Coward]

Anonymous Coward Horsey!

very possible

[DiggiLooDiggiLey]

They plan to have a man in space by the end of this year. We already know they have the capability for such missions since they've had some unmanned spacecrafts in orbit that were safely returned to earth. I believe they can do that. However, the step from that, to spaceshuttles, spacestations and lunar bases is a little bigger. They can do that, too, but I wouldn't be surprised if it takes longer than their timetable.

And to go to Mars, that's obviously just asking for trouble... When will we ever get interstellar spacetravel when we have such huge problems sending unmanned crafts around our own solar system, I wonder...

Re:very possible

[MtViewGuy]

Well, the version of the Long March launch rocket that lifted the unmanned Shenzhou prototypes into low Earth orbit have more lifting capability than the Delta II rockets we've used to launch probes to Mars, so if China is talking about sending robotic probes to Mars they already have the rocket to do so.

Whether the Chinese have the technological skills to build a spacecraft that can last several years on a Mars mission is still an iffy proposition, though.

Re:very possible

[payndz]

They plan to have a man in space by the end of this year. We already know they have the capability for such missions since they've had some unmanned spacecrafts in orbit that were safely returned to earth. I believe they can do that. However, the step from that, to spaceshuttles, spacestations and lunar bases is a little bigger. They can do that, too, but I wouldn't be surprised if it takes longer than their timetable.

If they have any sense, they'll avoid anything even vaguely resembling the shuttle in its current form. The 'cheap, reusable' road to space has actually turned out to be more expensive than sending every single non-returning payload the shuttle has ever carried up on disposable boosters like the Delta and Titan. Hell, they could probably have used Saturns and it still would have cost less!

They've probably got the right idea using Russian designs as a basis for their launches. They may not be cutting-edge, but they're proven, they're reliable, and they're (comparatively) cheap. As much as I love cool new hardware, sometimes the old ways really *are* the best for a particular job.

Re:Space race - OMFG the preaching begins tsarkon

[Madcapjack]

Slashdot isn't a democracy or even a government. I think that moderators just don't have much incentive in actually giving thoughtful moderation.

Re:Zealots

[Lumpy]

The truth of the matter is, they are soooooooooo far behind, how can you call it a race?

Very simple...

They dont have to engineer squat. 99.997% of all the engineering and testing is done for them and freely available.. or available for a price. I am sure the country formerly known as the USSR would gladly sell information on how to get your ass in space, to the moon, to mars, to uranus.. (Ok ok.. bad joke...) all they have to do is build. they have more computing power today than the United states had in 1989.. hell if they use linux and a correct implimentation they can have more computing power than the USA has right now.

The speed of advancement is very fast as the Chineese only have to traverse a very small part of the learning curve.

I think they can do it... but I do doubt that they will... China is known for 2 things.. Lots of population and propaganda... their government is really good at the propaganda part.

China going to Mars? Whats the point?

[brejc8]

Its allready a red planet.

Pardon my French, but

[michiel.h]

FUCK the space program.

China ought to use all that money and invest it in their economy, schools, health system, and anything else _but_ useless look-how-big-my-d1ck-is crap.

There are hundreds of millions of Chinese living a miserable life and finally their economy is steadily starting to improve. Finally they have a partyleader who actually tries to improve their living conditions, Hu. They should use this money for their country, not try to rival with the US.

//I lived in China and am currently studying 'Chinese languages and cultures' at Leiden University.

Re:Pardon my French, but

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, and just how do the Chinese people make their leaders "ought to" do that? You're stating the blindingly obvious, with no solutions. Do you seriously think that the money going into space exploration would be used for the people? It'd be used for weapons research & other military expenditure - of which I'm sure their space programme is anyway.

Make sure you study a bit of Chinese politics too....

Re:Pardon my French, but

[Anonymous Coward]

Possibly because all those rocket scientists aren't much use when it comes to building schools & hospitals. A bit like those language & culture students...

Re:Pardon my French, but

[Horizon_99]

with over 2B people in China and India, don't you think they really understand that space exploration/colonization is a smart investment?

Now I'm not saying we'll be living on mars next year or something, but at the rate we 6B pple are already screwing up the earth, imagine the damage we can do at 12B people!

Go China!
Go India!
Go Banana! :)

Re:Pardon my French, but

[michiel.h]

I don't seriously think the money that the money they use for the space program would be used for the people, but I do know that it _should_ be used for the people.

How?

- They should invest in infrastructure. The lack of proper roads slows down development.
- Investigations into corruption should be started.
- In most towns and small cities they don't even have real sewers. Heck, half of the people doesn't even have a toilet.

I didn't state the solutions since they are even more obvious than the problem is.

I do study Chinese polics and believe me, they need every single Yuan. The problem is that the whole Chinese system is based on 'The grander the project, the more positive attention, the more chance of getting a raise'. School funds are being spend on huge new science-buildings with telescopes on top, while the classrooms right next to it need new paint (peeling of the walls), new desks (students share the ones that are still in one piece) and new lights (at night they do their homework in the near dark, as only every one out of five lights work). I've seen it happen.

It's not just space programs, that's just one of the examples. They should cut the crap and start building their country.

Re:Pardon my French, but

[orim]

You know what else they should do? Fix the Three Gorges Dam! That thing is massive, and already has meter-long cracks in it before it's even open (substandard materials, etc)...
so fix it, dammit, before it kills a few million people downstream.

But they won't. The Party has deemed it safe, and safe it is...

Re:Pardon my French, but

[bill_mcgonigle]

China ought to use all that money and invest it in their economy, schools, health system, and anything else _but_ useless look-how-big-my-d1ck-is crap

I'll resist the obvious cheap joke and move straight to the possibility that China could become the low cost payload-lift nation in a decade and get a big chunk of that polynomial-shaped satellite-buisness curve.

If that kind of wealth/economy/job creation is worthwhile, maybe this R&D effort isn't such a bad bet.

Re:Pardon my French, but

[JahToasted]

Great. I love it when people are experts in what shouldn't be done, but give no hints on what SHOULD be done. So what would you do to fix China?

Education would be the best bet. Now once you have some engineers educated, what do you do with them? Let them leave the country so they can work in the US? Or make sure that they have jobs within China?

Re:Pardon my French, but

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't seriously think the money that the money they use for the space program would be used for the people, but I do know that it _should_ be used for the people.

Yeah, well, the US _should_ keep it's nose out of other countries' business.

Scientists _should_ find a cure for cancer.

I _should_ be making more fucking money.

Yet none of those things seem to be happening either.
(To be fair, at least some scientists are looking for a cancer cure)

Re:Pardon my French, but

[ratfynk]

Here is an old post of mine that still applies to this topic.

From Responses to a Slashdot Article
A Chinese Moon Base by 2010- or 2006?

'why even bother?' ( a post )

"mining materials from the moon is going to be more expensive than raiding Western Russia and mining in Siberia then shipping it back to China.

It's expensive to live there, to ship people there, and to experiment there (what to experiment on I will never know).

I can't see a financial justification to use it as a start point for Mars missions when there is nothing of use on Mars (even if there is water and "life").

Let's have our people suffer and wither away in the wastelands of undeveloped China and
build a moon base!"

ratfynk's response;

Give me an economic justification for war, and then I might go along with your statement. The first casualties of war are usually not American economic theorists, though this might be a good thing.

Bullshit to your economics. Give us an economic explanation of the pyramids all around the world or European middle age cathedrals.

There is every economic justification for non-productive space exploration, it would employ millions and do no harm. Can we really justify our so-called western lifestyle (I gag at the canned advertising word lifestyle)?

The Chinese have been spared the mass obsessions of insane 'lifestyle consumerism'. As they open their society and discover their true value as a people, they will over take the West in all fields of scientific human social endeavour within the next decade.

As the first people to use fireworks in a non-destructive way maybe that is what they have in mind. When you set off a nuclear explosion 40 or 50 thousand miles out in space all you get is one hell of a big flash. It is the use of nuclear technology within our atmosphere that is the real cause for concern.

Accelerate?

[circletimessquare]

Well, acceleration might get them there faster, but by accelerating the Chinese run the risk of overshooting Mars and flying off into the outer solar system. If they don't use Mars' gravity to brake properly, it seems kind of risky to play games like this just to get there a few weeks earlier.

How many km/second^2 are we talking about in acceleration anyways?

Oh wait, er... nevermind. ;-P

More from the BBC, also Mars Express problem...

[Dan-DAFC]

The BBC also has the story, as well as news of a glitch with Europe's Mars Exrpess.

YAPPAS

[Anonymous Coward]

YAPPAS: Yet Another Pointless Panic Attack on Slashdot.

Is Slashdot turning into the den of alarmists?

There should be an end to this pointless China (or some other equally unlikely-to-succeed-candidates) is planning to try to do something high-tech (e.g. going to Moon) and it is the end of the world as the Red Chinese dominate the world.

Give me a break!

These are very, very long term plans if it is a real plan at all and not some Indian-style inflated-ego-is-not-enough, must boost it more type crap-talk.

This is time long enough for the Chinese regime to come down (or made to come down) or our networks to do their magic as they did and are doing around the world.

There is no need to panic.

Re:Space race tsarkon reports - wrong. wrong.

[Anonymous Coward]

1 - Go the hell ahead and politicize - I don't care... It's my 1st amendment right to criticize your verbal diarrhea. I never insinuated you should be stopped from speaking.

2 - That's all fine and well, but Bush really isn't relevant to this discussion at all save funding issues.

3 - Now, a good but not great propagandist such as yourself forgets to be subtle about putting words in people's mouths. Bush allowed them to be funded . Not FOUNDED. Nice try.

4 - Most people are centrist/libertarians. Carrying a card seems rather non-libertarian concept since its an issuance of identification - rather federalist of you. Also, you being a libertarian must not enjoy seeing all the "wasted" federal dollars being poured into NASA.

Not everyone agrees with you. It's a fact of life. Please carefully read and understand your own sentence.

Quite the contrary. Quite the contrary. The fact you are not really qualified to render judgment on this issue makes you unfit for making decisions for society. The court of public opinion and the media circus in this country have at times very seriously jeopardized this country's progress and the progress of humanity. You will go around spewing negativity about NASA or the US, which has a real effect when hundreds and thousands of unqualified people start espousing about shit they know nothing about, without being qualified to make decisions for society. Groups of people like yourself can be very effective at stunting the growth of useful things based on how you feel about the issue. Its your right to do so. Its my right to try and point out to others alarmist propagandists are liars working the sheeple in the society as a means to their ends.

Now - feel free to speak some more. I love how propagandists try make someone they argue with seem like the villain and the "free speech denier."

Everest

[pommiekiwifruit]

Well, after China invaded Tibet Mao told some guys "hey, climb mount everest" (in chinese obviously). And in two years time they had done it, even though there was no tradition of mountain climbing before.

Re:Everest

[Anonymous Coward]

You saw that programme on BBC 2 last night as well?

Re:Everest

[pommiekiwifruit]

You saw that programme on BBC 2 last night as well?

Absolutely. And Edmund Hillary is quite popular in NZ (they put his face on the money without even waiting for him to die yet :-)

But kudos is due to the austrian guy who just walked up it by himself without oxygen...

The moon is still important

[Endimiao]

Setting up a permanent moon colony would be a feat.

Re:Looks like NASA may finally get a kick in the b

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks like NASA may finally get a kick in the butt.

Actually it doesn't look like that at all.

• The Chinese are far, Far, FAR behind.
• The Chinese projects are all plans and smoke, compared to NASA's which has sent probes and landers to both Moon and Mars and even put some men on Mars, even though it was more of a demonstration.
• The US is the world's greatest economic and military power --note the 'economic' part, that is important. China's economic power begins and ends with exploitation of cheap labour and over-development of a few cities at the cost of the rest of the country.

Planning versus dreaming

[Anonymous Coward]

The chinese do not have the cash.

simple.

I can draw up elaborate plans to go to Saturn or Uranus, do I have the money?

Re:Planning versus dreaming

[BiggerIsBetter]

I can draw up elaborate plans to go to Saturn or Uranus, do I have the money?

Well, I don't know about Saturn...

Russians too

[BigGerman]

I saw article on Russian website that their space agency just started recruiting people for future Mars missions. Variety of specialists, including geologists, needed. As opposite to their current programs, it won't be just military and military-related people.

Re:Looks like NASA may finally get a kick in the b

[Anonymous Coward]

...compared to NASA's which has sent probes and landers to both Moon and Mars and even put some men on Mars...

Dude, Mission To Mars wasn't real.

Not just the space program.

[BiggerIsBetter]

They've also built that big-ass hydro-electric dam, and I saw a claim for the world's largest steel arch bridge in Shanghai.

I think China might be over-compensating for something...

Hmmm

[ErikZ]

Let us compare this to one of China's other big projects...The Three Gorges Dam.

"The president imposed a moratorium on reporting four aspects of the project: alluvial sediment buildup, the more than 100 cracks that have already appeared in the dam, pollution/environmental damage and the return of those who were displaced from the area by the project. The first three issues are not allowed because with the passage of time, China's science and technology will improve, so they can be solved. The last taboo is forbidden because of the threat that it poses to social unity and stability."

Ah yes, the damn is starting to have problems. Solution? The media is not allowed to mention these problems, and is 'encouraged' to only mention the good stuff.

This attitude worked somewhat for the Soviets, I'm not sure if it will work for China.

Re:Hmmm

[ErikZ]

Oops, sorry. Forgot to post the link:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/EF20Ad05.html

Re:Hmmm

[Drakonian]

Ahh yes. Whereas the American media is unbiased and covers any noteworthy event in great detail. That is, unless the government tells them not to.

Re:Hmmm

[ErikZ]

eh? This isn't a bias. This is a blackout of information that could mean life or death to anyone living down river from the dam.

In fact, what does America have to do with what we're talking about at all?

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

He's just saying that the Chinese gov't isn't the only gov't capable of lies to show what it wants shown.

Currently, the US is a good example, unless, of course, the troops over there have found some kind of US threatening weapons of mass destruction.

Try tape space man to man bottle rocket

[Hao Wu]

First we try 100 bottle rocket to go to moon. Mars may require 1000 or more. You first volunteer. You die, we put you face on postage stamp.

What do you say?

I feel so inadequate

[chia_monkey]

Here I was thinking we were cool with our particle accelerators. Now China comes along with their Mars accelerator program. Damnit.

Honestly, here's what I think

[Anonymous Coward]

"Do you think only people in the US love peace? "

I think China is intending on dominating the world the way the US does today.

The difference is the Chinese take the long view of history. 10 years is but the blink of an eye. They are taking the 50-200 year view right now.

That said, I like the Chinese people; I find I can relate to the chinese more easily than I can anybody else in asia. You are the best at capitalism.

Why can't they just..

[wildzeke]

Since there are so many Chinese, why can't they just stand on each others shoulders to reach Mars?

Give the russians a little credit

[donscarletti]

After all, they seem to have mastered military planes..uh, i mean submarines...domestic cars..nope, sorry, i meant potato crops...doh!

The russians had a good excuse, the first car was made by a guy called Benz, a German, the first jet powered military planes were made my the Luftwaffa in WWII, and the first effective submarines were the U boats used by Germans Navy in WWI, and we all know that Russians and Germans didn't get along, so it was an act of patriotism to screw up in everything German.

But seriously, the MIG 29s had the USAF pissing in their pants until they developed the F22, the Typhoon class submarines, although having one unfortunate accedent were generally good ships that could match any Ammerican offering, and anyway, at least they don't come up under civilian boats to show off. The Lada may suck, but they can be made very cheap, and the potato screwup was not as bad as the one the Irish had a while back.

Seriously, the Russians were very good at what they did, they just had a few mistakes experimenting to try and make the world better, something the American government has never had the balls to do.

Re:Give the russians a little credit

[phutureboy]

Seriously, the Russians were very good at what they did, they just had a few mistakes experimenting to try and make the world better, something the American government has never had the balls to do.

A few mistakes? How about mass starvation, plummetting standard of living, massive corruption, domestic spying, widespread imprisonment, and cultural stagnation? ;-)

Re:Give the russians a little credit

[Anonymous Coward]

Then go live in Russia. If its so great. And while your at it, short sell every American stock because the Russians are so good at everything America is surely doomed.

You know, revisionist communist sympathizers like you are really classic. Look at Russia's navy. mostly gone. No aircraft carriers. Oscars sinking everywhere. The only reason Russians made seemingly better hardware is near free Titanium resources. If the US had a "fake" economy and could make unlimited amounts of Titanium "for the state" our planes would be "better." Yeah, maybe better at a cobra menouver and trick flying but not any better and blowing planes out of the sky.

The US sunk Russia blowing 15%-25% of its federal budget on military hardware. Russia used its whole economy to compete. And lost. And pissed all its citizens off. and starved people. And agressivly fucked eastern Europe. Some fucking succes story.

I suppose the Russians could have gone to the moon too, but they "didnt feel like it"

I suppose the Russians could have build more Buran space shuttles, but since it was "out of style" they didnt feel like it.

Yeah, russian hardware is the most sought after in the world. Snicker, Laugh.

Re:Give the russians a little credit

[Anonymous Coward]

DMCA... PATRIOT ACT... Iraq War... OIL OIL OIL!!!

Re:Give the russians a little credit

[Anonymous Coward]

> domestic spying

I hope, for the sake of irony, that you are not American. Or have you not been keeping up?

The US was behind and ended up first

[chia_monkey]

Ah...but keep this in mind. In WWII Germany was flying around in jets and the US was behind them there. Yet for the most part, the US has held the premier position in modern jet technology (of course the EuroFighter just rocks).

The USSR was the first with their satelite in space. Again, you could have said "The US is so far behind", yet the US was the first to put someone on the moon. We could list a myriad of examples, from computing, steel-work, gun-powder use, and so forth...

Re:The US was behind and ended up first

[Anonymous Coward]

"...yet the US was the first to put someone on the moon."

First? Only. If the Chinese are so close to landing on the moon, then I'm sure they'll be nice enough to bring us our freaking flag back as proof.

Re:The US was behind and ended up first

[bsharitt]

In WWII Germany was flying around in jets and the US was behind them there

The US had jets in WWII, they just didn't deploy them as widely since they weren't as desperate.

Re:The US was behind and ended up first

[EvilTwinSkippy]

Besides, say what you will about jets. FAR more impressive was the B-29. More was spent on the development of that aircraft than the bomb it carried. An aircraft the could cary 20,000 lbs of bombs 3,700 miles was unmatched in the war.

The design was so revolutionary the Soviets copied the aircraft, verbatim, and flew it up until the 60's.

Re:The US was behind and ended up first

[Anonymous Coward]

It'd be even funnier if they went there and couldn't FIND said US flag.

"Are you rearry SURE you randed on the moon?"

Arthur Clarke, anyone?

[ivoras]

Although at the time of writing of the '2061: Third odyssey' it didn't seem so, the Chinese may yet be successful in space. :)

http://virgo.kodu.net/scifi/clarke/odyssey/Clarke, %20Arthur%20C.%20-%202061%20A%20Space%20Odyssey.ht m

Lost comments

[Anonymous Coward]

There are too many important comments and replies that are not displayed by default. I'm fed up with too well rated stupid paranoid comments about which good answers are ignored, leading to an awful experience.

Sample:

The more I read of China (Score:5, Interesting)
by the_Bionic_lemming (446569) on Thursday July 03, @07:20AM (#6357096)

I'm not so sure this is just about getting to Mars and the Moon. I think China is actually attempting to do what we did to the soviet union and trying to get us to escalate in spending in order to quicken an economic collapse. I don't think we're ready for another "cold war" just yet.

+5 Interesting

?????????

and not answered properly !

I'm reading less and less comments. But then, a website like The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/1/index.html ) makes slashdot quite superfluous

USA too big for its boots?

[pubjames]

The phrase "too big for its boots" comes to mind.

The current administration seems to be of the opinion that the USA is supremely powerful. Now, only a fool would deny that the USA is in a powerful position at the moment, but it is not supremely powerful.

It is a dangerous state of affairs when the administration thinks that it no longer needs allies. They need to wake up to the fact that the USA is in the position it is in at the moment partly because its allies allowed it to get there, even helped it.

If the USA really does try to pull stunts like denying other countries access to space, then it might just find out what a difference friends can make. Believe me - Europe, China, India, Russia, Japan - they will react if the USA starts to act stupidly like this. We are already seeming some of the effect of this with collaboration between India and China, for instance.

I think the administration thinks that the rest of the world can't survive without it. They need to travel a bit more. They will that that, for instance, Europe isn't as different as the USA in terms of size and economy as they seem to think. They will also find that India and China aren't as backwards as they might imagine (for christsakes, many Slashdotters have lots jobs to people from these countries, and not just manual jobs but sophisticated white collar jobs).

The more the USA talks like this, the more its former allies are going to group together and start collaborating. The USA seems to like to impose sanctions and economic "punishments" on countries that don't collaborate with it at the moment. I wonder how the USA economy would take it if the national governments of places like Europe, Russia, Japan and China start selling their dollar reserves, or imposing import tarrifs on American goods. The USA may find that actually, it does need friends.

Re:USA too big for its boots?

[Anonymous Coward]

India and China aren't as backwards as we might imagine, because often we fail to realize that a lot of things in our country are "backwards.".

All of our governments are riddled with corruption, but theirs is more so than ours, which is a really sad statement. Look at what China is now doing to Hong Kong with their passing of Article 23.

I wonder how the USA economy would take it if the national governments of places like Europe, Russia, Japan and China start selling their dollar reserves, or imposing import tarrifs on American goods. The USA may find that actually, it does need friends.

I wonder how their economies would take it if ours took a big hit? In a global economy, we all need each other. Things we do can have impacts abroad and even remote things that happen abroad can have big effects on things in the states.

Re:USA too big for its boots?

[theolein]

I doubt that Europe will ever get it's act together enough to rival the US militarily, but financial power is also a telling instrument and Europe's Gallileo GPS system is certain to be a thorn to those in the US who seek to suppress competition.

While the US might well bully many nations (Cutting off military aid to 35 Nations because they won't give Americans immunity for anything they do, for example), bullying European nations will only alienate them.

And those nations that have been bullied will not forget who did the bullying.

Think about that.

Re:USA too big for its boots?

[Anonymous Coward]

The US has already attacked Europe once, supposedly to save it, but conveniently destroyed the industrial capacity of Europe whilst doing so. Europe is unlikely to forget that for a long time.

Re:USA too big for its boots?

[pubjames]

In a global economy, we all need each other.

You said it. America needs it allies.

I wonder how their economies would take it if ours took a big hit?

They would be affected, no doubt. That's why they don't do these things at the moment. But there may come a point when the USA is abusing its position so much that they are willing to suffer that damage. The USA blocking other countries access to space is the type of thing that could push other countries to do such a thing.

Also, you have to consider that other countries can deliberately change their economies over the years so that they aren't as reliant on the USA. That is one of the objective of the India/China economic pact, and one of the objectives of the European Union.

Re:USA too big for its boots?

[GuyFromAccounting]

How is not giving military aid bullying? The ICC is going to be used as a political weapon against the US. The US has every right to not give military aid to countries that are doing things against our interest.

In fact as a taxpayer I'd be upset if we didn't withdraw aid.

Re:USA too big for its boots?

[pubjames]

I doubt that Europe will ever get it's act together enough to rival the US militarily

Why not? Seriously? Europe does not currently have a strong military because it has chosen not to have one, not because it couldn't have one. Europeans prefer their taxes to go towards social programmes rather than military ones.

Re:USA too big for its boots?

[Anonymous Coward]

shut the fuck up

Re:USA too big for its boots?

[theolein]

If the ICC was going to be a political weapon, as you describe, it would be a political weapon against everyone. Your's is IMO a typical American centric point of view that thinks that anything taht doesn't come from te USA is bad for the USA.

Re:USA too big for its boots?

[shaggie]

I wonder how the USA economy would take it if the national governments of places like Europe, Russia, Japan and China start selling their dollar reserves, or imposing import tarrifs on American goods. The USA may find that actually, it does need friends.

It'll just deflate the value of the dollar so much that developing countries will go bankrupt because their exports to industrialized nations will no longer be competitive since the dollar is so deflated that buying from the USA is cheaper than buying from developing nations?

The US still has a lot of bargaining power to act like a bully, so much more so that even if all its allies banded together and imposed sanctions on the USA, all they would end up accomplishing is destroying themselves economically as well.

Re:USA too big for its boots?

[mesocyclone]

It always amazes me when people read military documents and then badly misinterpret them. The document didn't say it planned to deny other countries access to space. It wants the *capability* to deny future *adversaries* access to space. It wants to stop future Saddams or North Koreans (or French?) from attacking GPS systems or deploying orbiting nuclear weapons. Well, I guess we are just bad guys for having such intentions!

The US military already has systems to deny access to land, air, sea and undersea. Does that mean that nobody can use these? Of course not. Furthermore, these systems, like any military system, are not perfect.

Capabilities to deny adversaries access to space is the natural successor and is of course necessary to a country which is highly dependent on space based technology.

It simply means that space command is doing what it should be doing: developing the capability to fight successfully in its area of operations, and to vitally defend national assets in that area.

For example, as has also been mentioned in this thread, the military is highly dependent on GPS. If, during the Iraq war, the GPS systems had been knocked out, we would have had to use a lot more "dumb bombs" - with the result that many more people, mostly Iraqi's, would have died, and we still would have won. Future adversaries, of course, will want to take out GPS, so it would be beyond stupid for the US not work on systems to protect it!

This isn't stupid and it isn't arrogant and it doesn't mean that the US doesn't need allies. We know we need allies and we wish some who did so well under our protection were a little more loyal now that we are under attack by the Islamofascists. We already have over half of our army tied up just in Iraq, and North Korea is threatening to nuke Japan (talk about a bad attitude!). Contrary to world opinion, we are not militarily omnipotent and we know it.

There have been similar knee-jerk reactions to the DARPA idea to develop hypersonic drones. Guess what... DARPA works on future projects, and these hypersonic drones are obvious weapon systems of the future, IF the engineering is practical. Furthermore, don't kid yourself that future adversaries (China in particular) aren't working on the same sorts of things.

Finally, DARPA projects produce lots of technological spin-offs. As others have pointed out, the internet was one of these.

It would seem that since the US has developed its military superiority, and has used it in the war on terrorism (after the worst terrorist attack in history) to destroy two vicious regimes that nobody on Slashdot would ever want to live under, the rest of the world suddenly imagines that we are going to use it arbitrarily and capriciously. It also seems that the minute we act in our own self defense without getting permission from actual adversaries, we are arrogant and evil and need to be boycotted.

One of these adversaries is France, which has proclaimed its desire to obstruct US efforts and set up an opposite "pole" of power - apparently in the belief that the old 19th century European polar theories produced an ideal world! This same France colluded for decades with a vicious dictator (Saddam) and even gave him our diplomatic intelligence prior to the war. The good news is that France is so busy spending its money on labor unions and welfare that its military is a joke, suitable only for interfering in its former African colonies when French economic interests are threatened, or for launching one of its 449 thermonuclear warheads at anyone who speaks improper French (I don't see France giving up its force de frappe to the UN!). Also fortunate is that the French are so laughable that they provide a new source of humor for Americans.

When the rapidly occurring demographic collapse of non-muslim France (look at the trends - France will be a muslim country in a few decades), those weapons may very well be in the hands of Islamofascists.

Re:USA too big for its boots?

[pubjames]

It'll just deflate the value of the dollar so much that developing countries will go bankrupt because their exports to industrialized nations will no longer be competitive since the dollar is so deflated that buying from the USA is cheaper than buying from developing nations?

The US still has a lot of bargaining power to act like a bully, so much more so that even if all its allies banded together and imposed sanctions on the USA, all they would end up accomplishing is destroying themselves economically as well.

I think that you, like the current administration, still overestimate the power of the USA.

Much of the USAs exports these days are in intellectual property (films, music, software etc) rather than physical goods. What if the rest of the world decides to no longer respect USA intellectual property? You think that would harm them more than the USA? Think about it. And it has historic president - the USA did this in the 19th.

Of course, I am talking in extremes here. But stuff like denying other nations access to space is extreme, and such actions could provoke an extreme response.

And although a weak dollar helps American exports, foreign nations getting rid of all their dollar reserves would be an extremely bad thing for America.

As someone else said in this thread, "In a global economy, we all need each other."

Re:USA too big for its boots?

[GuyFromAccounting]

Only a typical American would think that giving up a portion of our sovereignty is a bad idea. How silly of me.

Re:USA too big for its boots?

[Anonymous Coward]

"It always amazes me when people read military documents and then badly misinterpret them. The document didn't say it planned to deny other countries access to space. It wants the *capability* to deny future *adversaries* access to space."

Read the PNAC website. Read 'Rebuilding America's Defenses'.

"[The US must] discourage advanced industrial nations from challenging our leadership or even aspiring to a larger regional or global role."

Ie., any country that challenges US hegemony is to be considered an adversary.

Re:USA too big for its boots?

[Anonymous Coward]

The communist morons that infest this place don't understand that strategic nuclear weapons are deterrence for war. The standoff between the USSR and the USA in a MAD scenario basically prevented the advent of WW3.

Not to have any need for strategic supremacy would be ideal. This is not that world. you are right in your idea, buy in is voluntary based on need for a supporting infrastructure. Being "rich" now is a Porsche here. Being rich in a post apocalyptic scenario may be as simple as having a tanker truck of gasoline. The guy with the Porsche doesn't want that. The rich willingly pay more taxes (progressively) in the US (and in most places) because they have more to lose, especially if the system breaks down. The US is rich, just as the guy with the Porsche. We have more to lose. Our system serves to protect and anyone can join. Its a gated community.

If the US were to lie down now, and allow dolts like China or other retards to catch up in any real capacity, the end of the world as we know it would be eminent. Most pseudo enlightened in-college or fresh out of college radical morons who want to drastically re-invent the US's horribly flawed but arguably "least-worst" system will willingly experiment with the said system in place in the US dangerously to do what's "right."

Luckily, more seasoned players are on the court. Just as a in the game of chess, there are clear strata between mediocre hacks such as those who see the US as evil, and those who are grandmasters, who can step back from the daily news and appreciate the larger, 50-100 year picture and see the massive, rapid and wonderfully positive strides things have taken for the better. They see more moves into the future.

The other thing people don't get is unilateralism is universal, and all those than can afford to be unilateral, will be. People discredit the US for being protectionist, unilateralist, etc. But they take the AIDS funding, the military aide, weapons systems. When the AIDS vaccine is finished they'll take that. The leaders of China (Hu Zintao and more seriously Zhang Zemin) will take a Boeing 767 while plotting nasty things against the US. People are severely jealous of the successful. I'll admit to having a tinge of commie in me when the fat cats at WorldCom got indicted and carted off. But only because of jealousy regarding their wealth.

That's the hardest thing for people to admit. The self loathe when they hate the successful simply because they are not.

We live in a world rife with hypocrisy, and it starts with these left leaning maniacs going to bat for the "little guy" - and the "poor countries" when they are relatively kingpins in the world (anyone with a personal computer is basically a kingpin in terms of wealth relative to everyone else in the world - that would be most all Slashdotters.) and love the wealth and convince of a western society but piss all over it at every given opportunity.

You are now my friend.

Re:USA too big for its boots?

[Anonymous Coward]

The leftists propagandists moderated this down because censoship works.

Another example of spineless cunt moderation here on Slashcrap.

Two haikus to commemorate the sucktitude:
Crack Pipe Moderators
Crack smoke wafts though air
Dumb shit moderator!
Try to suck less, please

The Humorless Moderator
Crack smoke wafts through air
Humorless moderator!
Why do you hate me?

Mao Tse Tung, Hitler, Stalin, Castro, Pinochet, Mussolini, Marshall Joseph Tito, Slobodan Milosevic, Idi Amin, Ho Chi Minh, Saddam Hussein, Muammar Qaddafi, Juan Peron, Ayatollah Khomeini, Ferdinand Marcos, General Suharto, Pol Pot, Fransisco Franco, and certainly the worst of the bunch, SLASHDOT's editing "community[note similarity to commune/communism]" ALL AGREE on ONE THING:

CENSORSHIP WORKS!

So, you busy little plebian proletariats, get busy, you have some censoring to do!

Good job you little neo-commies. Don't want to hear the other side, shoot the fucker in the head as an ENEMY OF THE STATE [In this case anyone who seeks to improve the sad state of /.].

I have a Gun and the Constitution [Not the urinated-on pissed-on hacked fucked up one WashingTOON thinks exists, I mean the real one, with Jefferson and Madison at my side], please, give me an excuse to use them both.

Re:USA too big for its boots?

[Anonymous Coward]

"The communist morons that infest this place "

Slashdot? Libertarian Central? Give us a break... Whatever China is politically at present (an authoritarian state) economically it is Communist in name only.

"People discredit the US for being protectionist, unilateralist, etc. But they take the AIDS funding, the military aide, weapons systems."

The examples you give are actually examples of US unilateralist bullying.

The US tried to stop the production of generic anti-AIDS drugs in Brazil. The AIDS funding is just a government prop for US drug companies to stop the production of generics.

Military aid and weapons systems? The 35 countries currently on facing having it cut if they continue to deny an ICC exemption to the US?

"When the AIDS vaccine is finished they'll take that. "

And what makes you think that other nations won't be working towards an AIDS vaccine? What makes you think the US willl be first?

"The leaders of China (Hu Zintao and more seriously Zhang Zemin) will take a Boeing 767 while plotting nasty things against the US. "

Or, like most nations, they will go for an Airbus and not have to worry about the US blocking technical support (which was why the Chinese bought British Trident airliners in the '60s instead of 727s).

"People are severely jealous of the successful"

Nope. The Nordic nations and Canada have US-style affluence with far more equitable economic and foreign policies. The US is *NOT* in my view "successful"; it is a deeply dysfunctional society where money buys anything and to take attention off its internal problems is threatening the rest of the world.

Re:USA too big for its boots?

[Anonymous Coward]

Moderation by your peers is not censorship. They haven't tried to block your post; the judgement of other /. readers is simply that it is crap. Get over it...

Re:USA too big for its boots?

[Oort Cloud]

When opportunities are given and tied to 300 pages of fine print, so to speak it becomes less appreciated. And also, I doubt people are jealous of soley all the sucessful, but rather the stingy sucessful people who encourages more problems in other nations by giving the nations a lot more questions with each answer. You can't hate a boss who gives a lot of employee incentives and genuinely gets involve with employee problems with direct care and compassion along with respecting its customers fully by not lying to make money but rather telling the truth to have trusting long- term customers. That is what the world wants. If the USA becomes all powerful, it won't be hated one as much if it sends a clear signal to the rest of the world with good intentions. Would you like your pharmicists if all they wanted to do was to sell you the drug by bending the truth. I doubt it. They have the trust and power to do so but do not abuse it. This is what poorer countries want from a richer country like the US. Not a giant business only nation.

Re:USA too big for its boots?

[shaggie]

I think that you, like the current administration, still overestimate the power of the USA.

Actually I'm working in Asia right now, the clout that the US can bring to bear is not just militarily, but its economic clout is immense and the US is not only exporting IP. Its still exporting immense numbers of various commodities that many countries are buying.

Exporting is only part of the picture, the imports that the US buys can be upwards of 40% of many 3rd world countries' total exports, if the dollar were to deflate that much, many of these countries would have their economy collapse as well.

The US Dollar is still the preferred international currency. Until there is another widely accepted currency, nobody would want the US dollar to collapse since many companies outside of the US has most of their current assets based upon US dollar. Euro or any of the European currencies aren't even close to being widely accepted, and you can forget about the asian currencies, the only possibility is the yen and japan isn't in too good a shape for companies to want to use the yen.

Most Americans (mainly caucasians) who work in asia are viewed as arrogant by most of the locals however the colonial mentality still has not really disappear in the sub-conscious of the ex-colonized asians. You would see these asians very sub-servient to white Americans (hell actually any caucasian) but curse at them behind their backs.

In any case, Americans are and have been considered the most arrogant of all caucasians. Its not hard to see why though, power breeds arrogance and we are used to speaking in a very direct manner which usually comes across as arrogance in other cultures and americans aren't exactly known for being sensitive to other cultures.

Just consider part of my benefits for working in asia, the company provided me with a car, an apartment, 2 maids, 1 driver. I have 3 assistants handling my schedule and paperwork and I'm only a VP.

in the states, I would be lucky to have more than 1 assistant handling my stuff and here I have 6. I won't be surprised that the local tycoons here even have a maid to wipe their asses for them after they take a dump.

I have seen even humble americans turn arrogant after 6 mths living in an environment like this. Power makes one arrogant almost always, it is hard to find a person with power with humility to all. Bush is no exception plus he's already arrogant and a spoilt brat to begin with, its no surprise he did what he did.

you took the words right outa my mouth

[Anonymous Coward]

you're exactly right about China trying to outspend us; they're trying to squeeze us between the political and the economic. Of course, we have the same strategy.

China does have something the Soviets didn't; China has gleaned (apparently) that it's not enough to build a factory to spec; someone has to understand why the spec is that way and how to alter the spec if need be. China could buy a Soviet rocket cheaper than designing their own but they are (imho) doing it as much to mine and refine the talent of their people as they are to advance their military position.

I hope that China's foray adds to the world economy without damaging our (US) global dominance (not that I agree with everything we do...) Russia, China, India... the world is a chessboard. I hope we get a civilian population up there before the world is either a radioactive wasteland or a World Bank run penal colony. Neverending war precludes meaningful frontiersmanship on our planetary budget. Spontaneous peace isn't to be depended on.

I read an interesting article in "foreign policy" magazine (in the US). The article stated that the US's primary concern in the Gulf is to keep the oil flowing because the world economy is based on the availability of cheap oil. The article flatly stated that the Iraq war was perpetrated because of oil, not "conspiracy theories". As I recall, the idea that the Iraq war was over oil was the meme painted as a conspiracy theory by the administration and their TV-media lapdogs.

In writing this post I suppressed my assumption that the reader would be in the US, and yes, I want a cookie. 8^)

Mars exploration is visionary

[BobRooney]

China is very wise to beat the rest of us to Mars. It will let them set up fried rice stands and an oppressive totalitarian government before anyone can else can show up to defend Martian civil and human rights.

Why does it have to be a race?

[!Xabbu]

Collaborate for christ sakes... its the human race going to mars... not just the chinese, or the indian.. or the US.. sheesh...

Re:Why does it have to be a race?

[Anonymous Coward]

People will finally realize this when Canada's multiculturalism kicks in and most of the population become mixed race. White, Chinese, Indian won't mean anything anymore.. at least in Canada. Most people I know are half-breeds and such including my self.

Watching people take pride in themselves because they are white, or chinese or black or whatever is extremely ammusing.. and pathetic.

Imagine someone saying "White-Black-Chinese mix power!" or whatever.

Racial pride is dumb, we should work together and Canada will lead the way.

This message was brought to you by a proud canadian nationalist.

Re:Why does it have to be a race?

[Anonymous Coward]

Canada: Mixing up the gene pool since 1867 w00t!

Happy belated birthday Canada!

The New American Century Is Here...

[Anonymous Coward]

Jesus (-1 blasphemous), the poor guy just posts a link to a humourous (-1 non-American spelling) article relevant (-1 disagreeing) to the previous poster's comment and you guys mod him into oblivion.

Good to see the money is being well spent.

Re:Looks like NASA may finally get a kick in the b

[Anonymous Coward]

.. compared to NASA's which has sent probes and landers to both Moon and Mars and even put some men on Mars, ..

Men on mars? What idiot modded this "Insightful?"

China's "Space Program"

[MikeyToo]

Considering the fact that they're using a knock-off of Russian technology and still haven't had a manned launch in the twenty-five year existence of their manned space program, I'd say that calling this a "race" is almost as much of a joke as calling what they're doing a "space program". Imagine this: It's 1920. The country of Florin announces that it is going to produce a manned aircraft. By 1945 they have made several unmanned test flights of an aircraft based on a Curtiss biplane. The King of Florin announces that they're going to start a commecial air service to rival anyone elses. Would you really take them seriously? I wouldn't!

Space is just another strategic frontier

[0xF1D0]

I think that space is just another strategic goal that countries are going to compete over, and I don't hold out much hope that the "let's all work together" rallying cry is going to be heeded.

Space is far too important from a strategic military perspective for countries to ignore it. Big changes are afoot in military tactics, and GPS-enabled precision weapons are at the core of it. Look at the recent Iraq war, where precision bombs were able to replace some of the slow-moving and cumbersome artillery, and I think we get an idea of where things are headed. Add in spy satellite technology, and proliferation of ballistic missiles (and the consequent anti-missile systems), and you can bet that countries are going to invest heavily in the defense of their space assets.

And I'm not just talking about the US... SOMEONE is going to take the lead in space militarization. For DEFENSIVE purposes only at first, I'm sure. And I'm willing to bet that, in our lifetimes, some countries will start to back away from the Outer Space Treaty of 1967, once the competition starts to heat up...

Like it or not, I think a quick scan of the history books teaches us that if a technological innovation yields a military advantage, someone is going to take it. And personally, I think it's dangerous to ignore that fact.

We can beat them

[Lonesome Squash]

But first we have to convince them to have some of their labs use English units.

Re:Give the russians quite a bit of credit

[Nexus7]

More than the MiG-29, it was the Su-27 that was the most capable air superiority fighter around, till the F22 (which is years away from deployment). The MiG-21 is still being upgraded and used by air forces, 30 years after it first came out. The B-52 is probably the only American plane with that kind of longevity. Speaking of which, ever heard of the Tu-160? The doomsday bomber? 4x as powerful as a B-1B, carries only ballastic missiles. How about the Mi-26? The largest and most powerful military/civilian helicopter?

Yeah, the Russians sure were backwards in military planes.

Re:but why can't South Africa be the next superpow

[Anonymous Coward]

South Africa is the only known country to have developed nuclear weapons, and then dismantled them all and destroyes the infastructure required to build them, and all before they even anounced their capability. It would seem that South Africa never really wanted to be a Super Power all that much :)

I said

[Anonymous Coward]

I said Anonymous Coward Horsey.

our leaders

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear peaceful in Shanghai,

surely you realize that our nations are not aligned. both continue to operate in antagonistic, winner take all, zero- or negative -sum strategies. China has been in existance for thousands of years and likely expects to last another thousand years. the USA has existed for much less time but currently has aggressive momentum.

We USians know that China is not secretly plotting our demise to the exclusion of all else. We also know that China is a rapidly rising power which could replace us as the superpower.

>> Do you think only people in the US love peace?
no. do you think your government would not be quick to be an adversary to the US for national advantage?

We all do too.
Of course some of you do (we're all human) but it's quite a stretch to think that *all* chinese (or *all* americans, for that matter) love peace. Some people are greedy, bad and will do anything. it's human nature as much as altruism and peacefulness.

Just give us a chance and I believe we can contribute a lot to the progress of humanity too, just we have done in the past.
the US is not taking away your chance to go to the moon. the US is watching to see if China makes strides that would destabilize our power base.

2Bits, people in the US view China as a nominal adversary though not specifically an enemy. It doesn't make sense to americans that China would go to the moon just for "the view". we're as worried about your ulterior motives as you are about ours.

So i guess, don't worry about retribution but don't expect to picnic alone. :) we'll bring the chips if you'll bring the soda..

Re:our leaders

[Z4rd0Z]

"USians" is about the dumbest word ever, not even hardly pronouncable. Please don't use that fucking word. Instead use the term "Usonian".

Re:our leaders

[Anonymous Coward]

Instead use the term "Usonian".

Or capitalist-swynian.

Re:our leaders

[Z4rd0Z]

Or capitalist-swynian.

Yes, because only Usonians are capitalists. No one in Europe or Asia or Africa belongs to the WTO or supports any large corporations. Nope. Just the US.

Re:our leaders

[Anonymous Coward]

Calm, calm.

Perhaps I should've added ':)' to the end of that.

Stupid deadpan humour.

So to quote you...

[Anonymous Coward]

But you said:

"As long as humans get into space, I could care less under what flag or what government it is for, just as long as we get out there... and then resist having a war over it."

Re:So to quote you...

[aerojad]

Right. If the Nazis won the war we probably wouldn't have gotten into space.

Now if you're going to criminalize devlopers of rocketry, then who *can* get into space with a clear conscience?

Re:So to quote you...

[Anonymous Coward]

Good to see that even simple logic does not cast a shadow on the doorsteps of your mind.

Whatever happened to international programs?

[Jeppe Salvesen]

I thought all nations were going to chip in on space exploration? Now, it seems like we'll have another race. That's a lot of wasted resources. Imagine the amount of double work that will need to be performed!

Don't hold your breath....

[Cnik70]

China has sent up how many men.... ummmm ZERO. Personally I don't hire someone who has never worked with a PC to work as a programmer. Do you honestly think I'm going to bet on a country that has yet to send a man into space to figure out how to get a man on Mars? But beyond all of this. Who gives a flying F$%& if they do manage to make it onto Mars. They are still left with a starving country. How does launching a mission to Mars help to feed their population. It would really be nice to see them figure out their problems that they have back here on Earth first before they look towards the stars. (And that goes for just about every country).

USA?

[supabeast!]

"This puts the China-India space race and the China-USA space race in a very different light..."

There is no China-USA space race. Middle America has made it very clear that they do not care about fluff like expensive space programs when the government can instead provide them miniscule tax breaks and 24/7 war coverage. The horrendous mismanagement of NASA funding has become an embarassment to long-time memebers of the Congress, who would rather just sweep the whole idea under the rug and avoid drawing attention to an aging shuttle fleet that they were promising to replace in the 1980s.

America is no longer in a space race with anything other than the financial mismanagement that threatens to eventually kill manned flight entirely.

American illusions

[theolein]

As per usual, when an article appears on slashdot about an achievment made or to be made in a foreign country, be it in Europe, India or China, all the worms crawl out of the slashdot woodwork to have their day making racist and/or stupid remarks about said country, generally only showing their lack of knowledge about that country.

I think that many outside of China don't realise something that China's less than democratic system permits which wold be nigh on impossible in the USA: Long term commitment to a project.

In the USA the government gets elected every 4 years and with luck a single administration can stay in power for 8 years. What this means is that no American administration can really plan anything in advance that is more than three and a half years in the future (six months of those four years are spent playing the American political circus). The next administration can, and often does, reverse many of the previous administration's plans.

The Chinese can and do make commitments to long term
projects that can be spread over many years, thus being less of a burden on the national economy and thus having the positive effect of having more time to correct and test those plans. If you look at the Chinese military, which was basically 1950's and 1960's vintage in 1980, when China invaded Vietnam (and lost) and the Chinese military of today, which is equipped with very modern weapons, you'll get the point. The Chinese navy is planning to have true long range ability (Carrier groups etc) by 2050! They take their time and no longer try to do Maoesque "Great Leaps". If China wants to go to the Moon or Mars, they will probably not race anyone there but take their time and do it right (Permanent bases anyone).

I think the Chinese government is well aware that there is a need for more openess in China and recent news articles discuss the idea of allowing democracy within the Communist party on a low level basis. I would find it highly ironic if China and the USA meet one another one day, what with China becoming more open and the USA becoming more restricted (Patriot acts I and II, anyone you don't like becoming an "Enemy Combatant" i.e. Enemy of the state)

stereotypes

[andy1307]

Let me be the first to post all the stereotypical nonsense we can expect in this thread

SARS

Poverty

slave labour

Did i miss anything?

Safety Record?

[prs_013]

Before you start off looking at other countrys' safety records... see US first. It was a LONG time before the US got its rocket science correct! Same with the atomic bombs too! They had to blow up close to 700 or so nuclear devices till they knew how to make a bomb! Compared to this, China and India have made the same grade (in rockets) with far fewer failures than US. Just because the past failures were not reported (due to lack of media) doesnot mean US was a huge success right away.

Re:Safety Record?

[kwan3217]

Excuse me? Have we been watching the same US space program?

If you do it in a safe way (stand way back, have self destruct charges, etc) rocket testing is very safe. No one on the ground has ever been killed by a launch from either Canaveral or Vandenburg. We can test rockets, even failures, safely.

Compare and contrast with China, where a launch vehicle went out of control and crashed into a town and killed hundreds of people because it either lacked range safety devices or they didn't work.

Also: Exactly one test was required to certify the atomic bomb. The second nuclear explosion in history occured in battle, over Hiroshima.

Re:Safety Record?

[PhilHibbs]

The U.S. was always dilligent and careful, mistakes were made due to the state of the art, not sloppiness. China's record of corruption and cutting corners on state projects is appalling. I'm really not looking forward to the Three Gorges dam filling up, I've heard a lot of scare stories about sloppy construction. (I just checked, it's full enough to test the generators now)

Re:Safety Record?

[Oort Cloud]

Just for clarity, the rocket didn't kill hundreds of people:

"At least six people were killed and 57 injured."

Where have you been the last few years?

[Anonymous Coward]

Frankly I am surprised that alternative sources of power aren't receiving more interest at present.

George W. Bush has certainly taken steps for alternative sources of power... just see how he put in alternative powers in Afghanistan and Iraq.

to good(?) to be true...

[shriek7]

I really don't know... I've been reading too many news about the chinese's (and asians in general) space program ambitions and it is becoming too Sci-Fi too be true.

First the human space flight (nothing special), then moon landing (not special, either), then moon base (beginning to sound bluff) and now Mars base?

Well, personaly I do think that we need to invest more in space exploration/colonization so we can begin to take the advantages of some technologies(like cold fusion -> H3) as soon as we arrive and mine the moon, for example. But I don't believe we will achive all this in the next, say, 30, 40 years.

However, I think this is a good way to pressure other nations to join the race and forget about little wars (around pretolleum, gas, and stuff like that). Money spent in space exploration may be considered badly spent by some but it is unarguably much better spent than in wars!

Your illusions

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that many outside of China don't realise something that China's less than democratic system permits which wold be nigh on impossible in the USA: Long term commitment to a project.

You haven't heard of Boston's big dig, have you?

Started in 1992.

Original cost estimate: $2.6 billion. Current price tag: $14.6 billion.

60% of the money paid for by federal tax dollars.

If that isn't long term commitment, I don't know is.

Thus disproving your point entirely.

Re:Your illusions

[theolein]

And you're going to take this into orbit?

Re:Your illusions

[Anonymous Coward]

what does orbit have to do with long term commitment?

That's the current subject in this thread, stay with it.

I would love to give you a real in-depth reply,

[uradu]

but I'm afraid (THE CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY SUCKS!!!) that for various reasons out of my control (COMMUNISM IS EVIL!!!) you probably won't get to read it.

Still, it seems that all the prognostications regarding China's economic potential merely take into account its huge potential consumer base, but not its political reality. If the CP is willing to let itself be marginalized and eventually swept away like most eastern European governments without putting up a fight, then maybe things could turn out ok. But given its track record, that is not very bloody likely. With the increasing affluence of members of your own particular social stratum (i.e. those with enough economic wherewithal to actually post on Slashdot), a new hunger for economic and political activism and dissent will arise that your CP won't be able to tolerate. If the CP is ever swept away forcefully, I can easily see China experience a similar fragmentation to the USSR. There are plenty of groups inside China that would like nothing better than to leave the hive.

But of course (MAO WORE A FUNNY SUIT) this is not the kind of discourse you could have from your current location, even if you were not a devout apologist for the CP. I have spoken to enough Chinese expatriates (RED AND YELLOW SUCK!!!) that "changed" their views the moment they left China to know that there's no point having a political discourse with someone IN China. I know, because I spent my childhood in communist eastern Europe, and I am fully aware of the huge disconnect between what people think and what they say in a totalitarian society.

China? Bring it on!

[bluethundr]

The only major reason for the space program of the 60's that Amercians are rightly proud of was...in one word...Sputnik! One of the great causes of the malaise our manned space program is suffering from is a syndrome I think of as "political culpibility".

In other words, no Congressman/Congresswoman is going to push an untried ambitious technological experiment. Such an experiment could well cost the taxpayers a shit-ton of money. If the experiment fails, that money is seen as lost into the NASA sinkhole with absolutely no benefit derived (at least from the point of view of politics, not that of the scientific community). Add to that the potential for loss of human life on manned missions, and what you end up with is a politcal hot-potato that no elected official will want to touch. That's why promising technologies like the Solar Sail are only now becoming realities with the aid of the European Space Agency.

Of course every NASA technology, dicey as it is by nature, was untried at some point. It's my opinion that the political wherewithal (vis a vis space) only surfaces when there is an external (read:military) threat. That it's a powerful, and ideologically opposed nation like China should, ideally, be just the ticket to fuel the ambitions of our elected officials. It's really the classic Zero Sum Game as originally described by John Von Neuman and later applied to social theory by Robert Wright.

Re:China? Bring it on!

[tmortn]

I have to disagree with the shit tonne of money. The price of the space program tends to get blown up out of proportion, even if NASA had double the budget tommorrow it would be a small percentage of the military budget, or welfare for that matter. In fact most of the individual branches of the armed services have programs with budgets larger than NASA's. The thing is 15 billion to fuel/maintain/support air operations around the world and 15 billion invested in a one off space ship design that explodes unexpectedly are two very different situations for determining how well the money was spent. Personally I would rather see some failures in the name of expanding the envelope of space exploration ( going to Mars for instance ) than failures in maintaining what we know we can do ( ie Columbia ). The space program is dangerous and risky and there is no way to avoid putting lives at risk to expand manned exploration capabilities but for gods sake if we have to risk lives lets do it while covering new ground instead of while jogging in place.

Arrogant Bush

[glrotate]

Just to clarify, your (I say you be because you're Chinese in Shanghai :) ) fighter forced down our propeller driven reconnaissance plane over international waters. This could easily be interpreted as an act of war. After our plane crash landed in your territory, your government held and interrogated the pilots and crew. China should have appologized for the entire incident, offer to repair the plane, and sent the crew on its way. China was entirely at fault and however you interpreted Bush's behavior doesn't change this. It's sad that your pilot died, but he was in the faster more agile jet, slamming into our plane was his fault.

Re:Arrogant Bush

[Anonymous Coward]

if i were china i'd be pissed off some spy plane is around my borders

Re:Arrogant Bush

[Anonymous Coward]

Then how? I am also a student in Chinan. How do you think of the intent of a spy plane hovering over the sea near your country? If oneday, you find a chinese reconnaissance plane flying over California's international sea,you will think:'oh,let's keep peace'? And who said to you that that incident was on international sea? I don't believe in Bush's government's information, like in Iraq wars,he just utilize your common americans' patriotic feeling.

Apologies in advance ...

[Heisenbug]

One quick question: Hu's the party leader of China?

Re:Apologies in advance ...

[michiel.h]

Yes, Hu Yintao is the General Secretary of the Central Committee, for short: party leader.

Re:Apologies in advance ...

[michiel.h]

Ah, crap.

No more ut2003 lan until 5 am when I have to get up at 7:30. Kills my brain and my wit

I know how they plan to do it

[Anonymous Coward]

The Chinese Mars program, in detail:

1) All citizens over the age of 6 must climb on top of a table or wall that is at least 2 meters high.
2) At 60 second intervals, all citizens will jump down from to the ground.
3) Goto step 1 until the Earth has shifted closer to Mars.
4) Fly to Mars!

Ominous signs

[coolmacdude]

Between this and the second mars probe being delayed a week because of a fishing boat, it doesn't look good for NASA.

The real good news.

[glrotate]

We can let the Chinese waste billions of dollars to find out the soil composition on Mars and use American dollars on more usefull things such as chewing gum.

Fusion Research

[idontneedanickname]

If you want more information about the research sql*kitten mentions, check out the Focus Fusion Society. Their goal is raise funding for additional R&D in this subject, but they also have a good description of how focus fusion is achieved.

The Indians

[Anonymous Coward]

Most indians live on reservations and have casinos. There's PLENTY of money to go to pluto if they want.

Waters

[DigiShaman]

It was in international waters. Thus, it was fair game for both the US to spy AND China to intercept the spy plane. Basically, non was a fault. Shit happens, move on.

Re:Give the russians quite a bit of credit

[Anonymous Coward]

Russians may have better airframes due to cheaper materials (basically - unlimited Titanium). But dog fighting is obsolete and the "cornering capability", while should not be over looked, as is seen by the thrust vectoring in the F-22, is less important than ever before. The Russians have no forward tactical theater control worth talking about. AWACS and JSTAR. They have adequate radar and missiles but while airframes and space craft may be a forte, I think in just about any theoretical counterpart the US has the advantage, better flight hours per airframe, and better maintainability. There is this pervasive myth about the Russians from the Rambo days. A cursory inspection of the military catalogs kept at fas.org dispels the Russian military myth. They could prevent Russia from being taken over and engage in strategic nuclear war and a half assed tactical nuclear war.

Your are mistaken about US aircraft longevity. Besides the B-52, the B1B things such as the F4 and the F-111 served many years. The F-15 has been around from some time as well.

The Super Tu-160 is a joke. It was first rolled out in 1987 or thereabout riddled with problems and longevity issues (Prototypes were flown in 1981 - took them 6 years to ramp up). I would much rather be in a Tu-95. Americas first long range jet bomber. Mid 1950's. Russians - 1987. They have en estimated 20 in inventory. We have 30 B2, 90 or so B1-B and 90 or so BUFFs. Not to mention superior US avionics. In fact, the Ukraine gave its 11 Tu-160 back to Russia for free to absolve a fuel debt. The Russians didn't really want the plane, they wanted the money. Who wants an impractically expensive strategic bomber? And why do you do with these Tu-160 if you don't want to nuke someone off of the face of the earth (provided the 160 can get there?)

The B1B has a 75,000 lb payload internally and a 60,000 lb external payload. The B-1B holds 36 world records for speed, payload and distance.

Also, the B-2 was used in Kosovo. Where did they fly out of? The US. The B-2 was used to strike targets halfway across the world. Think of the in air infrastructure needed to facilitate intercontinental tactics in a matter of hours. Somehow I never believed the Russian bombers, if they had attacked the US, would have ever made it back to base even if they weren't attacked.

So, while the Russians may have formidable aircraft, the well oiled Air Force of the US
doesn't have penis envy over any of the Russian aircraft. And countries shopping around for a few Mig 31/Su27/Mig29 doesn't make them a real air force. Not even close. The US could chew up quite a number of Russian planes with one carrier group rather easily.

Also, ever notice that the Russians have no more aircraft carriers? All mothballed. They have only made 4 hulls. All of the Russian military machine seems very defensive and strategic, force projection is not their forte.

And lets not forget which side Igor Sikorsky worked for. The Russian HIND gun ships were notoriously unreliable.

Now, if I were to pick a plane to have a thrill ride in, it would probably be a Russian airframe, a Mig 29 or a nice big fat Foxbat for some high altitude. Would I be taking a huge risk with my life? Yes. Would I pick any Russian equipment if I had a trillion dollars and needed to go mess with someone else sovereign nation? No.

My guess is either you are Russian or live in a place where Russian military hardware is bought because it is cheaper. But make no mistake about it. The Romance of the Soviet Union was not a romance at all, more like a kludged disaster and a lot of puffery. The Russians were good at space craft but never made it to the moon, airframes and strategic nuclear weapons. The rest of the military is spotty. The spec sheets may look good, but the real life implementations of these super-machines are rife with reliability issues and inadequacies.

Whoopee!

[Anonymous Coward]

All your planets belong to us!!

Bet I'll beat you there!!

[Synic]

Last one there's a rotten egg?

Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

Recent news reports and press releases from the Peoples Republic of China indicate that it will soon be the third nation to independently put a human being in space. Further reports state that china has every intention of putting a second human on the moon. Why all this sudden interest in space exploration by the Chinese? Most attribute it to a desire for increased national and international prestige, and as a distraction for the general population from pressing domestic issues.

However, one need only look into Chinas past to realize that they were once in the same position they are in now. In the early 1400s, 90 years before Christopher Columbus, the Chinese were the most technologically advanced culture on the earth. Their seafaring abilities were unsurpassed. During these early days of the Ming dynasty, a Chinese admiral named Cheng Ho set out on a series of 7 voyages of exploration. In flotillas of 50-60 ships this admiral, accompanied by 25-30,000 soldiers, sailors, cooks, doctors, shipwrights and ambassadors reached as far west as the coast of Africa. The flagship of the fleet was longer than the Nina, Pinta and Santa Maria stretched end to end. These voyages brought great riches and prestige to the emperor of China, as well as to Cheng Ho. But, after Cheng Ho's death in 1433, Mongol invasions in the north and Japanese pirates in the east led the emperor to decree that the voyages were too expensive. He ordered the shipwrights home, the ships burned and the logs of the voyages destroyed.

A century later, the Europeans began several centuries of dominating the Chinese. It could have easily been the other way around. At the time of the Chinese voyages, Europeans were utterly unprepared for the technologies that the Chinese brought with them. Europe, militarily weak after the end of the crusades, was a willing market for Chinese goods, and at the same time a source of needed raw materials, making them wide open for colonization. The Emperor missed his opportunity, to the Europeans benefit nearly a century later.

Today the last Saturn V sits on its side at Kennedy space center. Moon rocks are in museums, but not under the boots of astronauts. The plans for the Apollo moon rockets are becoming rapidly unreadable. For at least another year the United States lacks the ability to send astronauts into space. The United States does not explore other planets with humans anymore, it is too expensive and defense needs more money and attention. We see no benefit of putting people on other planets. The Chinese see the benefit, because they have been there before, and they will not be caught flat footed a second time.

Re:Zealots

[Araxen]

They can very easily catch up. The Chinese are willingly sacrifice alot more lives than we would. That gives them alot more room to try things that we wouldn't think of doing.

Working together?

[spike it]

I have a feeling that if these countries would work together instead of competing against each other in a race of who'll get there first, space exploration as a whole would be a greater success. Can't we all just get along?

Re:Offtopic? Mods on crack!

[Anonymous Coward]

Clearly you arent as smart as you think you are.

Red Planet

[Anonymous Coward]

It's called the red planet for a reason!

Re:Give the russians quite a bit of credit

[prepp]

so do the apache /longbow/ pilots still wet their panties when they hear about the hind and the havoc? *G*

So does that mean....

[Anonymous Coward]

When China fake landing on the Moon/Mars, all the fight scene's will be choriographed by Wo Ping Yeun?

B29

[Anonymous Coward]

Greatest aircraft ever built IMHO and also in the opinion of a friend of mine who's a corporate pilot. I believe its development cost 50% more than the Manhatten Project!

The B-29:

(technical)

was the first aircraft that couldn't be flown solo, ie it was the first *really* complex, system-oriented aircraft

was the first mass-produced bomber to have a pressurized cabin

pioneered some of the structural techniques later used in Boeing's B47/52 and its jet airliners

had the most advanced defensive gunnery system of any WW2 bomber

was the fastest (by a long way), highest-flying and longest-range heavy bomber of the war.

after the war played a critical role in the development of supersonic flight as the launch vehicle for research aircraft

via its B50 derivative, was the basis for the Boeing Stratocruiser, Boeing's first post-war airliner and along with the Constellation and DC-7 one of the great long-range airliners of the '50's.

(military/historical)

flattened Japan's industry in the most successful strategic bombing campaign in history

helped cripple Japanese shipping via a highly successful (and little-appreciated) mine-laying campaign

dropped the first atomic bombs

ran a highly successful strategic bombing campaign in Korea, when it was on paper obsolete

What an aircraft!!! Up there with the absolute peak of WW2 aircraft and far and away the best heavy bomber. (Other allied nominations: best fighter - P51, best all-rounder - Mosquito)

PS re. the Russian copy (TU-4); note the B-29-style tail gunner position on virtually every subsequent subsonic Soviet bomber!

UGh... why are untrue facts allowed?

[Anonymous Coward]

False statements should carry a penalty of death...

"A US Pathfinder rocket was the first to land on Mars in 1997"

Bullshucks.

Re:Zealots

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, they can lose around 17 astronauts before they pass the US total...

Mr. Chen vs. Mr. Smith

[Taco Cowboy]

Something's brewing in Mr. Chen's house.

There's a note on the freezer door:

I heard that Florida is a fun place to visit.

Let's save up money and plan for a vacation
to Florida next summer.

Perhaps we can rent an RV and drive there !

- - - - -

Meanwhile, inside the Smith's household,

Mrs. Smith:
"I heard that the Chen's are gonna get
themselves an RV next week !"

"What should we do ?"

Mr. Smith:
"Let's make sure that the Chen's can't
get their RV."

"Maybe we'll burn down their house so they
won't have a place to park their RV."

Right To Land

[thejames]

I am fairly certain that any land on any planet besides Earth (with the exception of Antarctica) belongs to everyone. To my knowledge this is a rule instated by the United Nations.

Now with all this talk about China planning to head up to Mars, it gets me wondering just how much China, or USA/EU for that matter, will honour that policy.

It's all good in theory, except I can definitely see a point where China/USA/EU lands on Mars first, claims a certain spot for their own for research, what have you, and decides its in the interests of "National Security" to not allow anyone from "Agency X" to have access. With all that land up there just waiting to be had, I'm sure it won't be a problem in our lifetime, but it sure will be something our children or grandchildren will have to face.

I wonder how closely the future of Mars will mirror Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy?

China on Mars?

[Anonymous Coward]

Silly. Who'd want to send that far for take-away?

Re:China going to Mars? Whats the point?

[Tablizer]

Its allready a red planet.

Actually it is amber-ocre. But, that does not make for very catchy anthems.

Re:SARS in MARS!!

[Tablizer]

Catching SARS in BARS on MARS makes you see STARS and crash MARS CARS.

If China goes to Mars...

[weeboo0104]

I guess it really could be called the "Red Planet".

(Please don't flame me, it's late and I can't sleep)