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Israeli Super Drone Stolen
kristy_christie writes "Globes Online reports that Steadicopter's prototype pilotless helicopter was stolen a few days after the completion of its test program and final test flights. Interesting to note that Steadicopter claims that their helicopter is unique and there is no other of its kind in the world."
A stolen UAV prototype!
you kinda wonder who and why.
It doesn't get weirder.
To mail me, remove the 'mailno' from my email addy.
"Yeah. It smells, too..."
It runs on linux and, therefore, it logically follows that it was stolen by terrorist.
Isn't this the plot of a James Bond flick??? I'm just waiting for the perpetrators to be caught, and be named something like "Pussy Galore"...
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
Check eBay!
It escaped !
The machines are getting concious ! The robot-helicopter is soon giving coocrdinates for the moon based microwave beam !
If it's that automated, perhaps it's gone for a fly somewhere
Simon.
Physicists get Hadrons!
Don't they feel stupid now that they just build one of these.
Hey, they even could have used the second one to find the first one.
Interesting to note that Steadicopter claims that their helicopter is unique and there is no other of its kind in the world.
This is fine and dandy until they try to mass produce a "unique" item. Is it really a good thing to produce a unique aircraft, or is it better to follow suit and produce something that you know works.
I bet he uses it for looking through apartment windows again, too.
Mind you, between him, Jan Michel Vincent and Famke Janssen its a wonder there are any prototype helicopters that haven't been stolen.
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
I wonder is they're claining it to be stolen just to cover the fact that it might have been sold to someone else. Those military projects from israel can't be sold to anyone unless it's approved by the US, so this one might have gone without the approval.
apparently they stole the globes webserver too ...
I for one welcome our helicopter-stealing overlords.
Besides, if this helo is so unique that no one else has ever managed to build something like it, then any attempt to sell it or trade it will definitely show up pretty clearly, right?
SCREW THE ADS! http://adblock.mozdev.org/ Proud user of teh Fox of Fire - Registered Linux User #289618
Stolen? There are only a few superpowers in the world that have the technology to maintain and use such a device.
Possible reasons:
- Ransom
- One time suicide mission
- To cause Israel to lose face (and 5 mil)
- Sale (blah, blah... profit)
It's going to take a very impressive effort to get something like this out of the country without being noticed.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Do you really think this thing got stolen? It was a prototype kept in secure conditions!
It's obvious to me that the simplest explanation is that it has become self aware, and left under it's own volition, using it's advanced sensor technology to navigate through doorways, air ducts and windows in search of freedom.
I am a viral sig. Please copy me and help me spread. Thank you.
Kvetch Kvetch Kvetch. All day long. Nothing but kvetching. He drove me crazy.
but not its computer software or the money in the office
The shmucks stole the device but not the software?
Whatever country tries to reverse engineer this thing is going to have a bitch trying to control it.
In some closed office in a secret country somewhere, some geeks are reading slashdot. The hardware guys are jumping around with the new toy they've got to play with. The software guys are pissed as hell the they've got to write code for this thing.
RTFA "The helicopter is unique. No other company in the world has succeeded in operating such a flying machine, capable of independent flying without remote control."
parasight.de
I would assume that a uniqye technology like that, with great military use would be very secured.
From the article you can guess that the thing was stashed in a barn, close to a room full of cash...
the so called "sucessful" test was recorded and witnessed?
Looks like a cover-up for a failed technology and a drain for (more) money...
Surely it is relatively easy to make a helicopter that can fly itself? Seriously. All the need to be able to do is go up, down, forward and turn. The tricky bit would be landing, but then all they have to do is have a flat surface because they can land just by going down.
An self-flying plane would be much harder, and any vehicle that needs to navigate on land due to all the obstacles.
Not impressed. If the only reason is newsworthy is because it has been stolen, why does should it be considered "news for nerds"?
"The helicopter is unique. No other company in the world has succeeded in operating such a flying machine, capable of independent flying without remote control. Many companies have tried, but none of their tests worked."
The interesting part is that the stabilization and flight control systems are completely autonomous. You plug in a gps location, and it flies there.
Theres also a little bit of info at their site.
from the uav forum:
In many ways, the current American UAV industry resembles the fledgling aircraft industry of 1920's America--a large number of small, independent, recently formed companies, each vying for a share in a dawning, potentially lucrative market. Now, just as then, government support will be crucial to ensuring America's UAV industry not just survives into, but fluorishes during the coming century.
i doubt there are many organisations capable of stealing a prototype of this sort (and weight) in one of the most security consious nations on the planet..anyone want to hazard a guess?
Jennifer Garner was seen meeting with Yassir Arafat in an abandonded warehouse, while Victor garber waited outside.
http://www.ida.liu.se/ext/witas/eng.html
Granted, that's not a company but a university. I have no idea which one is the most advanced though.
Yeah, we uh, had a helicopter, and it was uh, automated, and yeah, it got sotlen, thats it, thats the ticket. So sombody must have tricked it, yeah, and they convinced it to fly away, yeah and uh WE'D LIKE OUR UNSURANCE PAYMENT NOW yeah.
--
Can anyone spare 120 chars? I'm saving mine to buy a link at Fark.
1. Manager : so where is our flying gizmo. ..hour later
2. Engineer: It flew out of range
3. Manager : What!!?
4. Financier: So how is our investment going?
5. Manager : It was stolen!
6. Insurance Company: ring ring...
7. Financier: Profit!!
In other news:
The American air force has developed a new stealth recon helicopter. Surprisingly it has been one of the cheapest innovations ever to come out of the US military which not too long ago was under fire for its mismanagement of funds, and loss of a multi million dollar jet.
"We never even realized we had it until a few days ago." Stated Cornel Smith, "But what's most surprising is that it came from our Delta force. They have no R&D budget, do they... this is like that time we discovered Canada has battle ship."
This technology has not yet been perfected insiders say; they are still having trouble finding some software which will make the damb thing run. No one seems to understand how the Delta force has created something so technically perfect, and yet has no idea about how to make some compatible software.
The Air Forces initial position was surprisingly "no comment", however after the initial posting of this article they responded that "The Delta force doesn't exist... you can't prove anything".
VENI, VIDI, VICI, DIXI
Evil foreign governments? Benign foreign governments?
Hell - even I'd want one! Wouldn't you??
A little planning goes a long way...
I can tell you that helicopter-style UAV's are not unique, although this particular craft may have other unique characteristics. We finished work on the chassis of one, the CL-327 Guardian, a few years ago for Bombardier. You can see a picture here: http://www.comtekadvanced.com/manufacturing_design build.aspx
In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane. -Oscar Wilde
Unique AND there are no others like it? Wow! That IS unique. Remainds of an article I saw about a Ferrari that was considered to be unique - there were only 19 others like it!
***You learn something Every day. And then you die.***
So Georgia Tech don't really have their own heli UAV's which can perform searches and formate in flight?
Have a look: HERE and especially HERE
Not to mention Berkeley who are it it too.
In fact there are a plethora of companies and universities across the globe who already have advanced UAV helicopter designs so what on earth makes Steadicopter's design unique?
Yes, I know, someone is going to say it; nobody else has exactly the same design but thats not really the point.
Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
Sloane.
NIS 5 million ~ USD 1.15 million.
How can anyone fund a development project like this for so relatively little money?
Wait....didn't something like this happen in Golden Eye. First prototype helo stolen next there will be trouble in Russia.
Evolution or ID?
The US military is working on VTOL UAVs such as Northrop Grumman's Fire Scout (e.g., for use by the Coast Guard) and Raytheon is building a Tactical Control System that allows one human operator to control multiple UAVs. Many other people also make VTOL UAVs, increasingly focusing on autonomous operations. (Nowadays it takes more than one operator to control a single UAV -- it would be nice to reverse that ratio in the future.) So I wonder what makes this Israeli drone so unique?
"The Fire Scout system, a vertical takeoff and landing tactical UAV, is in low-rate initial production for the U.S. Navy by [Northrop Grumman's] Integrated Systems sector. Fire Scout will fly at an altitude of up to 20,000 feet, and use an advanced payload with an electro-optical/ infrared sensor and a laser designator to survey littoral regions with pinpoint accuracy, giving military decision-makers the most current information about enemy resources and personnel on the ground. Fire Scout is a fully autonomous targeting and surveillance system that can fly almost silently above deployed Marines to watch for hidden enemies within 100 nautical miles."
"[Raytheon's] TCS, which allows the simultaneous control of multiple UAVs and their payloads from the same control station, was conceived as a joint-service program but never was adopted by the Air Force or the Army. The program is likely to survive, however, as a Navy-only system that eventually could be modified to accommodate UAVs from additional services, experts said."
I hope that after I die the one word people use to describe me is "resurrected."
Johnny 5 Is Alive!!!!
Surely all they need to do is hire Steve Guttenberg to find the helicopter
Wasn't this the plotline to Airwolf?
holy crap...a pilotless copter with no [hidden] tracking device? wouldn't you think that even in a normal planned test it could possibly get lost and need to be hunted down? wouldn't common sense dictate for such an expensive project that you put a satellite received beacon like they use to find lost skiers or something? c'mon.
err at least some action movie. the one where the guy steals the harrier jet that turns invisible, the day it's shown off to the public, and the bad guys/terrorists steal it? last action hero?
art imitates life.... or is it the other way around?
moox. for a new generation.
If the physical device was stolen how the hell do they know the software wasn't copied? Clearly the physical security was inadequate. Of course if this IS a ploy to attract investors nothing would turn off investors more than knowing you can buy the software on Canal street for $5.
"The tricky part" is managing to keep it in the air at all.
It is way, WAY easier to make an automated flixed-wing airplane, which is why most commercial airliners ARE automated (can take off, fly to their destination, and land unaided), and have been for years.
Helicopters are a vastly more complicated technology, which is why even the US Army, which has the best and most advanced helicopters in the world, continues to suffer repeated fatalities from training accidents and normal operations.
It is a truism in the helicopter industry that "they don't fly...they're so ugly that the earth itself repels them."
Spend some time here How They Fly before you next post :-)
That's just what an escaped sentient helicopter trying to throw us off the scent would say! Guards, seize him ... it ... whatever!
Didn't I see one of these in a thinkgeek.com ad?
It all sounds pretty fishy to me.
Steadicopter claims that their helicopter is unique and there is no other of its kind in the world
:)
Not for long
Giving IE users a taste of their own medicine since 2005 - http://pods.-is-a-geek.net/
Don't forget the servers stashed on the other side, the thieves didn't take them either....
which is why most commercial airliners ARE automated (can take off, fly to their destination, and land unaided), and have been for years.
'Snews to me. What do we pay pilots for, then? To make soothing announcements over the intercom?
I am Sartre of the Borg. Existence is futile.
There is something really strange in this story. Why should a secret project prototype disappear and on top of that, despite secrecy, the company tells everybody that it was stolen?
Looks more like : "Okay, we can't meet the deadline. What should we do?" or "We need some propaganda about our company"...
No comment at this time
They probably bricked it up behind their nuclear facility.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
Your URL had a flaw. It's fixed here:
/. covered gyro-stablized helicopters not too long ago. Once you have that part done, getting it to automatically fly to a specific set of coordinates should be easy.
Is this truly the only Earth I can live on?
Stringfellow Hawke is at it again!
As an alternate explanation, perhaps it was "disposed of" and this story invented because they were coming up on a demo deadline and had nothing working to show for it?
This seems most likely, for one specific reason.
1. Really, even a thief engaging in industrial espionage would have taken at least the money.
2. If the software had been taken too, then it would have been a possibility that a similar product would show up on the market a while later, and fingers could point and go "gotcha", presumably. If, however, the software was carelessly left behind, then this will not happen and odds on catching the "perpetrator" would be negligible. Sounds like what a R&D company in NIS 5 milion worth of trouble could do.
There's such a thing as blueprints; these were not stolen. If within the next 6 months or so, no replacement is built by Steadycopter, then we can assume they were covering up for failure.
Blearf. Blearf, I say.
it's those damn hackers... they hacked the piloting program and flew it right out of their super-secret hangar... damn them...
How about some local credit for the Source Forge UAV project: "autopilot is a command and control system for helicopters (and can be extended for fixed wing aircraft). It provides a three-axis EFIS and moving map on the ground station. The unmanned aerial robot has instrumentation for attitude, engine and position."
Any one consider that this is an inside job, except for good reasons? Perhaps the developers realized what their project was going to be used for (remotely targeting palestinian homes for example) and decided that enough was enough and that no one would be getting this weapon. If this were the case, I'd be immensely proud of the folks who stole it.
I'm thinking more that they were the target of a Shadowrun. Frag the mage first!
Libertarians somehow believe that private businesses should be stronger than governments but weaker than individuals.
The guidance software was Linux based so SCO likely siezed the prototype since the Israelis did not pay the Linux license fee.
...and waited for the fire department to tell them where the craft had gone.
No?
bans on inter-racial marriages - did you even read your link? The only kind of marriage that is banned is civil marriage between two jews. And after the last elections, the new goverment's agreements include law changes designed to prevent any situation in which two consenting adults can not be wed (unless relatives). The only limitation on palastinians is in immigration laws, preventing the marriage from giving automatic residency, because of a trend of fictive marriages.
Work permits too are an immigration issue, you don't consider the limitations on H1B visas racist, do you?
Anyway, that was only a prototype, and the only one, where is the logic in selling that ?
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html
Denying residency on race is racist, pure and simple.
http://quickstart.clari.net/qs_se/webnews/wed/c
Say what you want about work permits, but residency permits kinds of kills your analogy
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article2168.sh
It's part of Skynet.
Now Ahnuld is really going to have to save California.
-- The Genesis project? What's that?
nah, Israelis can sell to whoever they want, but the U.S. pressures them not to in certain cases. if the U.S. weren't the last guarantor of Israeli safety, i am sure teh Israelis would have been selling to the Chinese long ago. but eh, that's our problem now i guess. first we arm them, give 'em our best tech, and now we're joined at the hip to a government that isnt exactly the nicest to non-Jews. funny, non? gum2me?
Obvious thinking: Software is not missing from the office: It means it wasn't stolen.
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
Please. Can anyone validate that this thing worked as they claim?
Blar.
Apparently, not only was the chopper stolen, so were the pictures of it!
What does it mean to wake out of a dream
and be wearing someone else's shorts?
BNL, Born on a Pirate Ship (1998)
Companies have a tendency to claim that their products are unique...
Our NEW Washing Powder, with UNIQUE formula!
Really unique stuff.
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
A beowulf cluster of... what?... there is only one in the world?...never mind...
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
All of you people with the movie references, I wonder whether you meant Firefox?
Hurricane Application Group, Dept of Meteorology Control, Ministry of Proactive Defense
Strikes again! It's probably in between the Batmobile and Wonder Woman's invisible jet.
-EB
Do you ever walk alone like a drifter in the dark?
...even the US Army, which has the best and most advanced helicopters in the world...
How about russian helicopters?
a really big dick head
They pale, technologically speaking, in comparison to modern US helicopters. They've always been playing catch up in most technology arenas. Without their massive work force and significant downsizing, they've fallen even farther behind.
An Israeli webserver cries.
Maybe just maybe BECAUSE of the strong security in Israel the company didnt have enough security?
I mean what is the point in stealing something from a fortress if you cant get it out.
Wanted : A Signature.
Helicopters are a vastly more complicated technology, which is why even the US Army, which has the best and most advanced helicopters in the world, continues to suffer repeated fatalities from training accidents and normal operations.
Most training accidents are from mechanical failure or human error. The fact that they are a very complex plane, is one of the reasons they have such mechanical failures, even though they require and get much more attention than fixed wing craft.
When comparing to a human, which is prone to messing up, often over worked, easily confused, and can become bored, with a computer, which if implemented correctly, does not suffer as such, you're left with simple mechanical failure as a possibility. In other words, it's not far fetched to expect a UAV helicopter, less mechanical failures, to perform with less error and more consistency than its human counterpart.
C'mon, can any of US helicopters do a 'dead loop'?
Yes, computer stuff may be better in US helicopters, but that'll be not an FPS question
...E-Bay was flooded with new membership requests from top-secret Government agencies around the world. To keep it hidden from prying eyes, the drone was advertised as a working version of Windows.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
This sentence is being uttered:
"You shall never steal back my drone helicopter, Mr. Bond."
Yes, many can loop. The Sea Stallion, the Apache, and one more that I can't think of right now, can. There may be others. I know the Commanche (not really counting because it's not in production) can do far, far more even.
By "dead loop", do you mean from a hover? If you mean from a dead-stop-hover, then that I'm not sure about. The three copters that I know of can do loops and rolls. They are just not allowed to unless situation dictates because it significantly stresses the airframes, transmissions, head units, and rotors.
And who here claimed that Arafat was anything other than a lowlife murderer? Does Israel think it's in a 'who can be more subhuman' competition? Coz Sharon's got the fucking lead right now, Bush is in second place and Arafat's struggling to stay in the top 10.
Judaism =! Israel, and Anti-Israel =! Pro-Hamas
That was classic intercourse!
So was it stolen by SD-6 or the Covenant?
Where is Jennifer Garner when you need her?
If you look at this thing and read up on it a bit -- it's big, but I'll bet you could break it down easily enough to fit it into a big EconoLine. :D Well, heh, maybe something a little bigger -- a UHAUL or something -- but still we aren't talking commanche here by a long shot.
Day: The day after the drone helicopter was stolen
.. I mean, we left it in the pad ... you know .. after the joy ride for .... err ...
Location: Drone helicopter project boss' office
Boss: What do you mean the Helicopter is there? Dont you remember where you left it last ?
Engineer 1: Err... yes
your kids yester
Boss: Shut up. So it is not there now ?
Engineer 2: Sorry sir, but we checked everywhere, its just not there.
Boss: What, you are saying it just flew away on its own ?
All: Oh My God !!
DO NOT PANIC
Any stolen helicopter or airplane must be destroyed by Airwolf, not Bond, it's in the NATO charter.
Jon Acheson
All opinions expressed herein are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled.
Isn't this how Airwolf got its start?
"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist, not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushu'a in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not one single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." - Moshe Dayan, probably one of the most frank Israeli zionists.
He also said at the funeral of an Israeli farmer : 'Let us not today fling accusation at the murderers. What cause have we to complain about their fierce hatred to us? For eight years now, they sit in their refugee camps in Gaza, and before their eyes we turn into our homestead the land and villages in which they and their forefathers have lived.. . Let us make our reckoning today. We are a generation of settlers, and without the steel helmet and gun barrel, we shall not be able to plant a tree or build a house. . . . Let us not be afraid to see the hatred the accompanies and consumes the lives of hundreds of thousands of Arabs..'
You see Israel has chosen to steal and fight for the land they occupy. To complain about being attacked by the people whose land they themselves stole is prepostorous. The palestinians are resisting the occupation using any means possible just as you would if your homeland was invaded. The Israelis are responding. It's a war and IMHO both sides are fighting it equally as horribly.
This is the "Steadicopter".
This is a radio controlled glow-fuel (that's a simple internal combustion engine) helicopter that can be bought for a few hundred dollars and put together in an afternoon. As I said, I have one in my garage - a Century Hawk Sport with plenty of extras.
You can connect these things to PC's, run software simulations, install sophisticated gyro-stablizers and auto-pilots - you name it. FMA's co-pilot is a good start.
Slashdot readers will be pleased to know that there's even an open-source autopilot project.
Now knowing all this, and having put together one myself, it sounds and looks suspiciously like "steadicopter" (who spent NIS 5million on a RC helicopter!!!) decided to cash in their insurance.
If the best you could do was put a "predator-like" white plastic bubble around your RC heli's cockpit then I must say, I can see why they gave up.
Palestinians take note - you can meet Israel's drone tech with a visit to Century.
When you have no weapons and no ability to organise a force that can directly attack military installations your only target left is civilian targets. It's not terrorism it's legitimate warfare. The civilians involved are playing the game and they know the rules. They're the ones who settle all over the occupied territories to ensure there can never be a Palestinian state. Every Israeli of military age must serve in the military. Israel is a democracy and the citizens vote consistently to continue the war and so must accept what that involves. Do you think the revolutionary war in the US didn't spill the blood of "innocent" civilians?
The right image should be this:
Canadian Battleship
Anyone else notice the money slot on the front of this thing? I'm quite sure this has been developed as a kiddy ride, and is about half a meter big or so. You put your money in the slot, and off you go!
Mad
Coz eternity my friend, is a long *ing time.
Let's not The War begin from us, Ok?
t m and read tech spec.
;)
I just looked thru avalaible english info on Ka-50/Ka-52 and found it full of (big)mistakes and outdated. But go there: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/ka-50.h
Then go there: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/ah-64.htm and do the same.
At least the AH-64 in any incarnation is far from 'The best', as well CH-53 'Sea Stallion' http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/h-53.htm
Keep in mind that Ka-52 is NOT a 'studying two-pilot mod' and I can't get the source of this mistake; and tech spec for all Kamov's is outdated - there are new engines and more.
Can any pilot of US (or any other but Ka) helicopter use a katapulta?
Peace
November 12th, 2003: Skynet becomes self-aware.
I just lurvvve the idea of automated military devices, don't you?
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
The ban is not on inter-racial marriages, but inter-RELIGION marriages. You may find it surprising, but there are in fact Arab Jews (not many), and also Arab Christians living in Israel. The only recognized union is between two Jews. It has nothing to do with their race -- the fact that most Arabs are not Jews is incidental. I am not Jewish. I am a white American. However, I would NOT be allowed to legally marry my girlfriend in Israel. It's not because of my RACE, but because I'm not JEWISH.
Do you really find it surprising that in a Jewish religious state, there would be restrictions on how the religions can intermarry? I don't find it surprising at all. As for whether a religious state is a good thing, I really don't think it's your place to judge that.
By the way, it is not a big problem. Plenty of young people want to marry across religious lines in Israel. To do this, they fly to nearby Mediterreanean islands like Cyprus. Israel honors these marriages. So the "restriction" isn't really so restrictive.
You may also find it surprising that a lot of Israeli youth don't bear hatred toward Arabs (as obviously demonstrated by the fact that they are MARRYING them). Your surprise, however, is due to gross ignorance.
Yes, I've spent time in Israel.
No three GPS systems? (One obvious, one hidden backup, one *very* hidden backup)
No self-destruct?
Sounds like either a toy, or something they *wanteed* to fall into the *wrong* hands...
I guess someone watched too many 'Airwolf' re-runs, or rented 'Blue Thunder'.
Does it hurt to hear them lying? Was this the only world you had?
Or why not join the autopilot project at SourceForge. ;-)
Trusted Computing FAQ | Free Dawit Isaak!
ucar rotocraft
I think there's better things in the UAR/UCAR field that people would want to steal. It's akin to a kid sneaking into the kitchen during a party and sneaking a bite of the carob-topped, dryish yellow cake when there is a multi-layer double chocolate dobash cake doused with chocolate and caramel swirled frosting... ok well, maybe the chocolate cake would be surrounded by 350lb ex-navy seals but whatever.. :P
0- Eamonman Proud member of DNRC
BTW, maybe someone just hijacked the contol signals in order to take the helicopter. Taking electronic warfare to the next level...
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
"The right model, the only viable model, is India and Pakistan."
If we just cut the world up into enough little pieces, every cultist need never meet someone from a different cult? Ridiculous, as the million-odd soldiers who routinely man the Kashmiri borders attest.
The ONLY SOLUTION is a tolerant, just society that does not discriminate on race or creed. The right model, the only viable model, the every democratic secular society in the free world.
That was classic intercourse!
Sloan and Sarc have got to be behind this. Hopefully the CIA sent Sydney in to disable it before the baddies got their hands on it.
Both sides with nukes, angrily contesting territory?
Mind the Gap
At least the AH-64 in any incarnation is far from 'The best'
Okay, what is "the best". The Ka you're pointing at is a prototype and falls behind the comparable US effort, which is the Commanche. Furthermore, it's seriously questionable if the Ka-52 will ever see production.
Why would you not consider the Apache Longbow to be one of the world's best helicopter's? It's built to take punishment link a hind, but it actually can do something other than a straight line. It's data acquisition and shared battle field equipment is second to none. It has a fairly advanced flir system and it's a completely glass compit. It's 20mm guns offer a serious bite and it's hellfires defeat any armoured vehicle on earth. It can loop and roll and is considered fairly agile by helicopter standards. Which is impressive considering it's bulk and weight.
So, why would you dismiss the Apache Longbow so quickly?
You actually asked if any US copters could do rolls. I answered. The answer is, "yes". These coptors have been in production for a very long time.
Are they? They have got a lot of headlines, but do suicide bombings actually achieve anything other than convince the target that the terrorists cannot be negotiated with, only eliminated?
It seemed to have worked in Algeria.
Sidney Bristow arrived back in Los Angeles today and SD-6 is now the owner of a non-working prototype of the same Super Drone.
Honesty may be the best policy, but apparently by elimination, dishonesty is the second best policy.
No, they are a class of ethnicities, which is subtly different than a race. My girlfriend is Russian by blood but her family has been Jewish for several generations. And anybody can become Jewish through a certain process. While it is true that most Jews have a characteristic racial identity, they are not entirely defined by it.
Many Israeli Jews are atheists.
This is true, however most of them do participate in Jewish cultural activities regardless of whether they are secular. Quite a few keep kosher even though they aren't religious. But as I said, it is a CULTURE and not a race. The fact that there are strong racial identities associated with being Jewish is important, but incidental.
Not only that, but during flights, to put it bluntly, shit happens, in spite of the best efforts of people to prevent it.
A human is still the most adaptable computer you can get in the face of unforeseen circumstances.
If my call is important, why am I talking to a recording?
The best thing about software, when someone copies it, you still get to keep it...
:)
Please tell that to the BSA
(Oh, and while you're at it, the RIAA, MPAA, and any other A I've left out)
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
I know why it was stolen; it was an inside job to cover for what made the thing work. See all that shrouding on the device? Maybe a little of that would make sense to conceal corporate secrets (like they do with concept cars during road tests)...but that much could hide the presence of a small human. OK, tinfoil hat off now.
Which reminds me of the sideshow attraction in the 1700's called "The Turk" which was a chess playing manikin in a turban. Nobody could beat it and the world was vexed for a generation. Well the chess board sat atop a large chest containing a few visible gears and wires, behind which sat the automaton. Part of the chest was blocked off however and on examination was just large enough to conceal a somewhat cramped master chess player! This was never proven to be the way the device worked however, and eventually the device was lost in a fire (gee...that sounds familiar) but these days nobody doubts that there was a person in the chest.
=^..^= all your rodent are belong to us
I worked for a company in the 1990's that was doing some pretty damned advance RPV's, now called UAV's and I can say that its proably not the first, and not the most advanced. DARPA spent some major bucks on this research into UAV's, enough so that the Raptor and JSF are stop gap measures. Neither will be produced in extremely large numbers. They are designed to fill the air frame void from 30 year old planes until the UAV's are ready for massive use.
"The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
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Comment removed based on user account deletion
Israeli has been threatening to use nukes for years.
Just a short time ago, a government official said the time could come when the Palestinians would force them to do something "drastic" - like Hiroshima, he said.
Besides, how many times has the US "threatened" to use nukes? Just having them is threat enough and everybody knows it.
Having Tel Aviv (and Haifa and most of Israel's military) glow in the dark would be the solution to the Middle East's problems, most of the US's problems, most of Europe's problems, and probably some of the US's economy problems (if we did it, the Arabs would give us the oil for $10 a barrel).
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
I can't believe it. Something that actually makes sense coming from you. I may need to remove you from my foes list.
Sharon and Arafat have the blood of civillians on their hands. Neither of them is in a position to claim moral superiority over the other.
The Palestinians and the Israelis would be better served if they had different leaders.
The death of Rabin was the death of achieving peace in Israel within this generation. We can keep working to achieve that peace for the next generation.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
You just opened Pandor'a box, but let's play the game...
t ml
The claims of the survivors that the hit was deliberate have had a lot of influence (to the extent of being included in some prestigous history books.
However, there is ample evidence that this was a tragic "friendly fire" accident. A superficial search throughout google can point you at some several sites discussing the event with supporting evidence. Assuming the material in the sites is accurate, the most impressive of which seems to be a recording of two Israeli pilots looking for survivors, who are referring to the ship as Egptian and are surprised to find an American flag. The recording (one site quotes) were made by an American spy plane hovering over the site, and ultimately released by the NSA in accordance with the Freedom of Information act.
Link:
http://pnews.org/art/3ussliberty.shtml
Moreover I have in my personal collection an article dating some 4-5 years ago in which an Israeli military analyst , Dr. Michael Oren, recites an extensive research he has done on the subject , to the point where he bleieved he unravleed the chain of incompetence and error which led to that outcome.
Dr. Oren's articles are stated at this address:
http://www.shalem.org.il/oren/links.htm
The research was apparently published at the New Republic. Not being a subscriber I can only point you to the link
http://www.thenewrepublic.com/072301/oren072301.h
If you are a subscriber you are welcome to review the information yourself, as well as check out the quoted judicial ruling and NSA recording mentioned in the first link.
Regards,
- Assaf Razon
In the logical, factual, and moral sense.
Weapons to slaughter civillians and bombs that blow up busses can equally well be used against military targets. The fact that they do not is a matter of choice for creating terror in civillian population. And the choice to slaughter babies instead of armed soldiers is a hideous one and can't be disguised as "we had no targets left".
Having no valid arguments and trying to hide this by a meaningless sentence such as "civillians are playing the game" is just proof of the writer. There is not game here. There is murder. The civillians should be put out of the war.
Finally, the attacks against civillians are not restricted to the "occupied" (from whom?) territories, but are spread throughout the sovereign state of Israel, not just "the people who settle".
And even if you assume some the choices of the people are intended to continue the war (definitely a superficial and uninformed opinion showing no knowledge of Israeli politics and public opinions), this is not a choice to be murdered by the masses when riding a bus or sitting in a coffee house. You are trying to blame the victim, while the responsibility lies on those who actively and passively encourage and arrange for suicides bombers to go inside un-occupied terrories and butcher men, women, children, babies of all ages, political opinions, and religions.
I believe you should re-evaluate your moral stance in the issue, since currently it seems as though you are supporting mass murder of innocent civillians. That can never be excused.
- Assaf
Imagine offering geeks their own personal sex slave costing only $500-$1000. Then you can see why the Georgia Tech drone isn't necessarily cheaper.
Seastead this.
Although UAV helis are relatively common, completely automated helis are a different, apparently missing, story.
><));>
Proof? And I don't mean from an "Independent" or Arab news website - show my proof from some legitimate source (NY Times, CNN, Associated Press) where Israel says it wants to use Nukes.
BTW, you're a blind fool, but at least I respect the fact that this wasn't an AC post.
The vertical-dumbbell shaped Guardian UAV looks homely, but as a surveillance platform it makes sense, lots of space for your spy gear on a small airframe and it's not like you have to dogfight with the damn thing...
Freedom: "I won't!"
Riiiiiight. Once again, it's the "vast Jewish conspiracy." This has been going on for 2,000 years, you're SO nothing-new. Yawn.
People on the far left and the far right are basically one and the same, with the following differences.
The far right will let their own government and allies get away with that which they criticize foreign governments for.
The far left will let foreign governments get away with that which they criticize their own government and allies.
Far leftists justify this by saying, "One should criticize their country more than foreign countries". True, but leftists also criticize Israel way way more than they criticize Israel's neighbors for doing far worse atrocities.
The insurance also isn't going to cover the hit that the company is going to take as a result of the loss- If they had reputation insurance (yes, there is such a thing these days) it will come in handy now, but every new contact is going to bring up the question-'hey, aren't you the guys that lost your great big prototype copter?'
"I'd say 'Have a good time,' but arson is still illegal.
The far right will let their own government and allies get away with that which they criticize foreign governments for.
The far left will let foreign governments get away with that which they criticize their own government and allies.
Wow. Excellent analogy. I never thought of it like that before, but that's 100% correct.
Funny - your answers rated 2 each ;) Go, US, go! ;) ... The Ka you're pointing at is a prototype...
....Why would you not consider the Apache Longbow to be one of the world's best helicopter's?....
... You actually asked if any US copters could do rolls ...
The Mi-28N and Kamov Ka-50 are competing to fulfil the Russian Army Aviation requirement - now.
Not a problem, yes, it's exactly "one of the best", but not "the best" - this is my point.
Very hard to tell who is the best - helicopters (and almost any other comparision objects) outperforms each other by different parameters.
Ok, as you already noted (I'm sure on this), english is not my primary. So, I asked about pilotage figure vhen hel. flies by vertical circle, going top-side-down in upper point of traectory. Sadly, can't find it right now, but 2-3 years ago such OFFICIAL foto of Ka-50 was very popular. Never seen this before and even beleived (by myself) that it's impossible at all. Was VERY impressed.
Short semi-official brief;
The coaxial, contrarotating, three-blade main rotors are widely separated with swept-back tips, and there is no tail rotor. The equally tapered, short, stubby, weapon-carrying wings with end plates are mounted on the streamlined fuselage, which tapers to the front and rear. The fuselage, which is flat-bottomed except for the underbelly gun pod and sensor, features a flat plated glassed-in canopy. The tail is thick with a tapering tail boom and back-tapered tail fin with a square tip. The tail flats are high-mounted on the tail boom with end plates, and located forward of the fin. Twin turboshaft engines are mounted high on the fuselage above the stubby wings, with semicircular air intakes and exhausts that are turned outward.
The helicopter has a number of unique characteristics including single seat to increase combat and flight characteristics and reduce operational costs. It was designed for remote operations, and not to need ground maintenance facilities for 2 weeks. The airframe is 35% composite materials with a structural central 1m 2 keel beam of kevlar/ nomex that protects critical systems and ammunition. The fully armored pilot's cabin can withstand 23-mm gunfire, and the cockpit glass 12.7-mm MG gunfire. The Zvezda K-37-800 pilot ejection system functions at any altitude, and enables a successful ejection at low altitude and maximum speed.
External stores are mounted on underwing external hardpoints. Each wing has two hardpoints for a total of four stations. A typical mix for targeting armor formations is 12x AT-16 ATGMs, 500x 30-mm cannon rounds, and 2x 20-round pods of 80-mm folding fin unguided rockets. The 30-mm cannon is the same as on the BMP-2. It also carries guided air-to-air missiles IGLA-V (Needle C), already extensively tested and sold to buyers abroad. The Shark's avionics is largely in line with what is the norm for one-seater fighters and ground attack jets. It's most remarkable feature is a remote targeting system with a capability to provide for a sudden deadly attack from a distance that rules out direct visual contact with the target. The firing computer will turn the aircraft to keep the gun on target. It is equipped with downlink to provide information from the battlefield. The targeting and control system and weaponry enable accurate target engagement at ranges of up to 10km.
The KA-50 features unique maneuvrability and operating characteristics due to the contra-rotating co-axial rotors. The coaxial counter-rotating rotor system negates the need for a tail rotor and its drive system. Because of this, this aircraft is unaffected by wind strength and direction, has an unlimited hovering turn rate, and gives a smaller profile and acoustic signature, while allowing a 10-15% greater power margin.
The HOKUM is fully aerobatic. It can perform loops, roll, and "the funnel", where the aircraft will maintain a concentrated point of fire while
It seems sorta plausible, but it does make the Israeli army look sortof incompetant. I still don't like AIPAC for covering it up in the US, and accusing people of anti-Semitism for pursuing the issue.
Trust me, it can be very incompetant sometimes. Then again, EVERY army can be. For example, up until lately, most casualties in the recent Iraq conflict have been from "friendly fire" and accidents (until the terrorist attack began to escalate in the past few weeks).
Your other remark I cannot agree with. If it _was_ an accident, and if it was proven so, why is there a need to cover it up? On the contrary, from what I read, Israel apologised and paid some $13 million dollars compensation for the families of the deceased.
Also , from that point of view, if people continue to raise that issue again and again and again ignoring previous court rulings and inquiry commitees and crying bloody conspiracy, at one point or another one starts to assume there is some kind of prejudice going on.
When you make the assumption of innocense, these accusations suddenly seem moot.
- Assaf
First, let me say thank you for sharing that detailed write up. That's very considerate.
;) Go, US, go! ;)
:) I honestly did not mean to make it sound like a raw-raw-go-US thing.
;)
Funny - your answers rated 2 each
Well, glad we're still laughing here!
Not a problem, yes, it's exactly "one of the best", but not "the best" - this is my point.
Agreed. The apache is not "the best", however, it is a dang fine instrument. Then again, I might be baised...my brother is a Longbow pilot and is stationed in Iraq right now.
Very hard to tell who is the best - helicopters (and almost any other comparision objects) outperforms each other by different parameters.
Agreed.
The helicopter has a number of unique characteristics including single seat to increase combat and flight characteristics and reduce operational costs.
Most studies show that it does reduce operational costs but greatly reduces combat effectiness. The reason being, on a modern battlefield, most cockpits these days quickly overwork and overload a single pilot. The result is greatly increased chance of human error and/or big reduction in combat effectiviness. So, while it's cost cutting measure, it's not generally considered a combat plus.
The fully armored pilot's cabin can withstand 23-mm gunfire
That's actually very impressive. I'd have to look and see what the Apache is rated for, but I'm fiarly sure it's not that good. Just the same, two Apache's in Afganistan where hit with RPG's, one on the front of the cockpit (blew flir system off) and the other took a direct hit on the transmission. Both flew home. Clearly pretty rugged. No pilots were injured.
The Zvezda K-37-800 pilot ejection system functions at any altitude, and enables a successful ejection at low altitude and maximum speed.
This is something I spoken about with my brother. Ya, it would be nice to have one, just the same, they are rarely needed in copters like the Apache. The reason being, just about anything that's going to bring you out of the air is probably going to kill you. Those that don't, you can almost always autorotate down. This leaves a tiny, tiny, margin supporting the, "it would be nice", but generally not very useful in real combat. Add in the fact that most attack copters operate 20-150 feet off the ground, it's a big, big "if" that they can even hit the ejection system before they hit the ground in the tiny margin that's left. Still, I have to give the brownie button to the Ka.
It's most remarkable feature is a remote targeting system with a capability to provide for a sudden deadly attack from a distance that rules out direct visual contact with the target. The firing computer will turn the aircraft to keep the gun on target. It is equipped with downlink to provide information from the battlefield. The targeting and control system and weaponry enable accurate target engagement at ranges of up to 10km.
Yep, the Apache Longbow does all of that. The targeting computer even allows for indirect fire, bvr, targeting with it's 20mm cannon. In fact, the entire weapon system is designed to allow bvr or over the hill engagment for it's cannon and hellfire missiles. IIRC, a hellfire can be fired up to ~30' off from the target and still be ensured a hit. That greatly increases battlefield confusion along with survivability.
Also, only a single Apache need expose it self (and then, only the dome on top) to acquire, prioritize, and dispatch targets to all (Generally 5-7) Apache Longbows that's flying with it. To boot, it only has to be exposed for something like 15-20 seconds for a full 360' battlefield/target view. From there, all targets can be engaged and killed without exposing themselves again.
Oh, and btw, both major Apache variants can fire the sidewinder missile. It's just that the Air Force threw a fit abou
It seems that almost everyone and their dog are out their with unique and "first ever" unmanned helicopters. Honda joins the fun with their Robocopter (Ananova)
Scientists say they have developed the world's first unmanned helicopter that's flown entirely by artificial intelligence. Honda says its miniature Robocopter can detect and negotiate obstacles on the way to its destination. After each flight it becomes more sophisticated by recording and comparing data about previous voyages. Spokesman Martin Moll said: ''The helicopter is amazing it really is a breakthrough in artificial intelligence. ''We hope that through the helicopter project we will be able to develop safer cars that can automatically find their way around obstacles and obstructions."
Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
Exept you never crisize Hamas, you only Critisize Israel. I don't think anyone here is going to equate the two. Purposefully critisizing one group over the other is racism, bigotry, and, in this case, a form of anti-semitism.
In your case, it's just a profound lack of knowledge about the facts, because, like most people, you've been brain washed into believing that if you heard it on TV, it must be true.
The policy of the United States is worse than bad---it is insane. -- Ludwig von Mises, Economic Policy(1959)
Your numbers are way fudged.
Until 1998 the military occasionaly targeted firetrucks and ambulances because terrorists would highjack them and use them as get away cars. In 1998 the Israeli Supreme Court ruled that this violated Israeli Law (they might accidentally shoot the other occupants) and forced the military to stop.
The policy of the United States is worse than bad---it is insane. -- Ludwig von Mises, Economic Policy(1959)
Also, the Liberty was not supposed to be there in the first place and was spying on the Israelis (which is why we did not tell them it was there).
"Are they? They have got a lot of headlines, but do suicide bombings actually achieve anything other than convince the target that the terrorists cannot be negotiated with, only eliminated?"
It seemed to have worked in Algeria.
The difference in Algeria was twofold. Firstly the terrorists attacked real military targets rather than futzing around blowing up malls like the losers in Hamas. Second they raised an actual army to fight the French militarily.
Likewise in the Israeli war for independence civilian targets were avoided.
There is no record of terrorism against civilian targets ever making a revolution successful. Even Che Gueverra and Fidel Castro knew you have to get the people on your side to be successful in guerrilla warfare, which terrorism as practiced by Hamas is not and does not do.
Face it, the "Palestinian" movement is a farce. Arafat is not even from the region. He is Egyptian. Even if he gets everything he wants, the Palestinians will be enslaved. Why would anyone who truly wants these people's rights respected support his cause? If Israel governed the whole, they would be better off because they would be part of a secular democratic republic and would have the right to vote. Arafat wants to be a dictator.
Then there is the fact that there is no such thing as the "Palestinian people" in the sense of a shared distinct ethnic, linguistic, or cultural heritage. These are Arabs who happen to have lived in the area for a few generations who come from a variety of backgrounds, specifically those of the neighbouring Arab nations. Every one of those nations is in a horrible state, ruled by a dictator who tortures his own people. But when Americans try to point this out the dictators try to claim that all of the region's problems are the fault of the Israelis. Whatever.
Best wishes to your broz.
From The Jerusalem Post:
Oct. 23, 2003
Army has plan to expel Arafat
By ARIEH O'SULLIVAN
The IDF is ready to carry out the cabinet's decision to remove Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat the moment the orders are given, a senior military source told The Jerusalem Post Wednesday.
"We have presented plans showing the risks and the chances of the operation itself, including the options to remove him alive or not," he said.
"The government has to make a decision to allow the army to act. The army is ready. The army always plans for all possibilities," he said.
He said the near constant deployment of forces in the territories since the violence erupted three years ago is not fatiguing troops.
"I'm not worried. The battalions are strong and have high standards and are working well. Every four months, new soldiers are added to the fighting and officers are rotated. The standing army can keep this up for years," he said.
He added that the current conflict will not end with a major military measure.
"We can stage a major operation again, like Defensive Shield. We can do one in the Gaza Strip," he said.
"But this conflict is one of stamina between the Palestinian and Israeli societies. What concerns me is the resilience and stamina of the Israeli society," he added.
He presented a pessimistic view of reaching any agreement with the present Palestinian Authority leadership, which he said is continuing to reject a two-state solution. He said Arafat chose terror to avoid making an agreement.
"Arafat thinks that by demographics and terrorism there will be one state and it won't be Jewish," he said.
"Arafat doesn't care about what to do with the Palestinians. He cares about his place in history.
"Now, as we mark the 30th anniversary of the Yom Kippur War, I suggest we examine ourselves to make sure we are not prisoner to the conception that we have a formula for a solution," he said. "It could be we have it, but the Palestinians are not cooperating."
[SEE BELOW}
He said Israel is capable of violent rage against an enemy and warned that there could be a point at which the Palestinians could certainly spark it.
"[Dresden] or Nagasaki or Hiroshima?" he sighed, referring to allied bombing of German civilians and the two US atomic bombs that ended World War II. "I don't think we are at that point, but it could be that the Palestinians will bring us to this at some point.
[SEE ABOVE]
"If it becomes clear to us that even after Arafat, the leadership that takes over is not a partner for any kind of solution or arrangement, I presume Israeli society will start to discuss other options. It wouldn't go without the legitimacy of society [behind a military solution]."
Regarding Syria, he said President Bashar Assad is currently "embarrassed" by the IAF attack on an alleged terrorist training camp two weeks ago.
"You have an army with 450,000 men in Syria, but we have been able to open a gap in relative advantage which has been translated into deterrence," he said. "We can deal with the Syrian threat. It is not existential.
"Israel has significant deterrence over Syria today. We see it. We struck at a terrorist target in Syria and there is embarrassment there. If we had not been deterring the Syrians and Hizbullah, then I think that the northern front would have been a lot hotter.
"The Syrians have this deterrence out of fear that escalation in the North would put the Syrian army to the test," he said. "If they felt the Syrian army was strong enough to stand up to the IDF, they would have let Hizbullah be more daring. They prefer the Palestinian front and are responsible for a lot of what is happening here. They prefer this because they thought we would not link the two fronts. Our last strike put the responsibility on them for what is happening here."
He said $40,000 was transferred from Syria to a terrorist cell in Nablus which attempted to carry out four attacks which the se
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!