Slashdot Mirror
Spain, Morocco To Build Undersea Rail Tunnels
DoraLives writes "The BBC reports that Spain and Morocco 'have agreed to build a 39-kilometre rail tunnel beneath the Mediterranean Sea, to link Europe and Africa.' and that 'This plan could be put into action as early as next year...' Fairly daunting technical piece of work should they attempt it, but the prospect of an all-rail trip from Edinburgh to Tangiers is intriguing to say the least."
Let me know when I can take the train from San Francisco to Tokyo.
catapults
possibly cannons
My other sig is an import.
The future economic benefit is going to be interesting, if they can pull it off.
This space intentionally left blank.
Should be done by 2073
And in other news: fog in (English) Channel, Continent isolated :)
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
This is an excellent idea! It will boost tourism to North Africa, and hopefully spur further development and political stability in the North African nations, such as Morroco, Tunisia, Eretria, etc. Look at what the Chunnel has done for cross-traffic between England and France.
if this ever pans out, it would be possible to take train from Singapore all the way to johannesburg!
can you fly a helicopter into said tunnel, and if you can, when it explodes, will tom cruise survive said explosion?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Well I suppose it would be an alternative to flying South for the Winter
Video Game cheats, hints a
yea, you're right
tiffany teen's website is $20/month. that'd last me a long time too
This is definitely going to help rebuild relations between Spain and Morocco. Of course, I want the whole thing to be Wi-Fi, but thats just me. ~_^
I have to wonder if the boarding security for the trains running in this proposed tunnel would at least meet that of air travel?
A big enough bomb exploding in transit would basically scrap the whole kit-and-caboodle.
I bring this up because of the fact that Morocco likely has their Muslim fanatics as well, no?
Spain and Morocco to build train tunnel under sea
Spain and Morocco plan tunnel link
Tunnel to link Spain and Morocco agreed
Tunnel link for Africa and Europe
Spain, Morocco to build tunnel under Mediterranean Sea
Spain, Morocco plan undersea tunnel
DON'T MOD THIS UP. MY KARMA IS ALREADY EXCELLENT (has been for months!)
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology /space_elevator_020327-1.html
Is there really enough trade between North Africa and Europe to justify such a tunnel?
I can't help but wonder how badly there is a need to build something like this. England to France makes sense, as you are talking about two rich nations that see a lot of bussiness with each other. This on the other hand just doesn't seem to hold as much promise for profit. Granted, I know little about the area and there might be more to it then I know, but I just can't see it being worth the horrific costs. Is there any reason why such a feat of engineering is needed when an air plane or boat are both practical solutions?
I wonder how well they have looked at this from an economics side. It seems like it would be a horrific waste of money if it is just being done for national prestige. The worry in such projects is that very few people are willing to say 'no' to such things. The companies involved in the building are of course more then happy to let the government foot the bill, and the companies on either side of coast are happy to have it put in at not cost to themselves. Of course, the people who are going to have to pick up the tab are the tax payers of the respective nations. Who is speaking for them in this project? I hope this is not just a government waste program between the two nations, as it could potentially be a very expensive one.
W00T!!!
The Channel Tunnel: UK - continental Europe, built in 1994, 37.5 kilometer submarine
The Seikan Tunnel: Japan, Hokkaido - Honshu, built in 1988, 23.3 kilometer submarine
Now a tunnel across the Mediteranian is not going to work. First off, Tangiers is not exactly what I would call a "business" destination. Nor is Spain. You have to dig pretty deep on the African continent to find anywhere a typical European traveler would be going. Perhaps I am missing a pent up demand for travel from Africa. It didn't RTFA.
The next problem is travel time. Sure a ride from spain to Morroco would be a lot quicker via Train. A trip from France to Morroco a bit less so. From Scottland to Morrocco... well, only for the folks who want to do it because they can.
Finally I would like to note that the 2 countries involved are still involved in a few territorial spats. That is not a recipe for success on a multi-billion dollar project.
"Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
--Dr.W.Edwards Deming
I liked a bridge better, this stinks of Virtual Light.
When I was over in France I saw a doco about one of the unintended consequences of the Chunnel: muslim & eastern european refuges. It's easier for them to cross in the train. (I can't remember which way they were headed! but I know it was an "issue" the news was talking about). I think they'd set up a camp for them because they had no money and nowhere else to go.
I'd think a link from Europe to Africa will be very severely subject to this problem.
Space Elevator planned:
Space Elevator 1
Space Elevator 2
Space Elevator 3
nothing on big hole to from us to china...
Why me? Why not!
BACKUP YOUR PARTITIONS
in teh berring strait?
then one could go from London to Bogata on rail, I think what would make it even better would be a road through the tunnels so people could drive as well.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
"Sad that Islamism wants to stop human progress." Arrg.. IT ISN'T Islam that's doing it!!! It's just crazy terrorists that HAPPEN to be Muslim. That might have been a slip of tongue, but it's that kind of thing that pisses me off. By the same reasoning, you could argue that Christianity is to blame for most of the terrorists in Northern Ireland. Yeesh. Oh, and you can just say "Islam" (instead of Islamism) in that context.
Also, does anyone know how the depth of this tunnel would compare to that of the Chunnel?
Tierce
Who sponsors your feelings?
But if we don't mod it up enough it will be below the threshold of some readers, and then they wouldn't see your worthless collection of redundant links.
It's mostly Kurdish and Afghan refugees that use the tunnel to try and get into Britain. It was a pretty huge issue there last year, when it got to a point that people would regularly be rushing the security gates to try and jump onto the freight trains.
The camp that was set up near the Chunnel, Sangatte, got closed by the French authorities earlier year, as an attempt to placate the English. They Brits contended (pretty accurately) that it was being used as a base for immigration. People would live there by day, and then try and sneak into the UK by night.
Cue The Sun...
I think it would be borring as hell (Thank Jeebus for the GBA). Although you wouldn't use it for commuting, going the whole way round ABOVE the ground would qualify as interesting.
--
"we live in a post-ideological world..." - Billy Bragg.
Just found someone digging a big hole to the center of the earth... might go to china?
Hole to china
Why me? Why not!
BACKUP YOUR PARTITIONS
But isn't this the type of attitude that led to the traffic congestion problems in most major cities? Despite a set schedule, most train/tram systems do get people to their destination with a minimal amount of time, since they tend to have the right of way or exclusive tracks that allows them to avoid traffic congestion.
-B
I lived in Gibraltar for a while.
There are a lot of ferry rides across between Spain & Morocco on a daily basis. They are usually always packed.
Ferries run from Algeciras to Tangiers and Ceuta
Ferries also run several days a week from Gibraltar to Tangiers (not to Ceuta, I dont' think.. Spain hates Gib)
There is definately money to be had, anyway....
The economic value of such a tunnel would outshine any "spat" over territory...
What are they fighting over, anyway, Ceuta?
(Ceuta is a spanish protectorate/territory/colony/whatever in morocco, basically across the straight from Gibraltar.)
Commercia shipping is probably one of the largest reasons. Right now, the only way to get stuff from North Africa to ship it over the water. That's slow.
This would also give shippers a reason to bring more goods through Spain, as opposed to shipping around Spain (once you have the stuff loaded onto a ship.. might as well use that to your advantage.. why bother with spain at all?)
From Gibraltar or Algeciras to the coast of Morocco is about 15 miles, on a clear day you can see the Rif mountains in Morocco... if you are elevated at all, you can see the beaches and houes of Morocco.
A bridge or tunnel is not THAT rediculous, though given the fact that it's open ocean, and all that implies, it's no easy task.
I want a train tunnel along the Great Circle arc from New Brunswick, Canada, to Great Britain, passing through Greenland and maybe Iceland. Then I want a 600MPH train to shoot me from NYC to London, thence through the Chunnel to Paris and points east. I'd love to drive my motorcycle into a cargo car in Brooklyn, and hop back on in the Alps.
--
make install -not war
Given England's involvement in the latest crusades and France's large muslim minority (around 10% IIRC) there should be concerns about the Chunnel as well.
Where did you get that?
I mean I'm no authority on it.. but Morocco is not really one of the "terorrist hotspots" of the muslim world..
The King has been very adamant about keeping muslim fundamentalists out of the country. The chiefly muslim population of Morocco are indeed very muslim, wear traditional garb, etc, but are not fundamentalist weirdos.. they respect others, other religions, and generally don't hate westerners.
Aside from being poor, Morocco was a neat place to visit, and the people were surprisingly well educated about world politics and geography, considering the poverty levels.
Because of the curvature of the Earth the shortest path between San Francisco and Tokyo goes as high as 48 N. So going through the Bering strait wouldn't be too much of a detour, and connecting Japan to mainland Asia isn't laughably hard. Check a map, or better yet, a globe.
I'm sure the first step will be using the trains to carry freight only. When and if this goes smoothly, it'll be used to carry people.
This is going to be a 39km tunnel and if you have an accident in the middle then you have problems getting emergency services in and other people out. The other people tend not to react all that sensibly either when they see flames and realise thay are 15km from an exit.
In a tunnel like this, that would be overhead . Is that a scary thought, or what?
Dunno how popular it is in comparison to various other destinations, but when I lived briefly in Germany (11th grade) I know that several classmates liked to go to Morocco on vacation. Specifically, to go there to smoke hash, cheaper than it apparently was in Amsterdam.
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
The ministry said that a joint Spanish and Moroccan committee of officials had already agreed a preliminary three-year plan of works to start as early as next year, with an estimated initial cost of $30m.
Er, "m" in Europe/Africa is 1e6, right? I can't imagine what sort of "preliminary three-year plan of works" in such an Herculean effort could be done for a mere $30 million.
Look at the big dig in Boston -- a relatively easy task (shorter by far, at least) with initial estimates of $4billion (I think) and 40-50% overruns, I can't imagine much more than breaking ground on either end of this proposed gargantuan tunnel getting done for $30m.
everything in moderation
I initially thought this was a cool idea, but then I had the sinking suspicion that Renfe must be involved. They almost certainly will be. For those you haven't lived/are living in Spain, Renfe is also known as the World's Worst State-Run Railway. Actually, my travels aren't extensive enough to state that with certainty, but it's gotta be in the top 5. Let's see, in the past year (and just off the top of my head) Renfe has managed to: run a pair of trains into each other because somebody literally fell asleep at the switch; trap like 30 AVE workers in an underground tunnel for three days; build a section of the Barcelona-Madrid AVE track over a dangerous sinkhole, mandating millions in costly repairs; exceed the overall timeframe and budget for the Barcelona-Madrid AVE by years and millions of euros, respectively, etc. etc. etc. (Hi ha algu aqui de Catalunya? Que pasa amb l'AVE ara?) If someone were to invite me to ride to Morocco with them on this underground tunnel, I would politely take the ferry.
I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
As far as I know, the Straight of Gibraltar is 13km at is't narrowest point. While I appreciate there may be other reasons (depth of sea, etc), it does seem a bit odd that they'd choose a much longer (and potentially riskier to construct) route than strictly necessary.
Anyone have any solid ideas why they'd choose a 40km route over a ~13km one?
That's on the other corner of the Sahara Desert. :-)
More than mere navel gazing.
Since Britain and US are good friends now... It is time to start the Trans-Atlantic Tunnel. Early ideas are available. Even a promo tapes avaiable in english and german
So man redundant links and not a one has a picture of where the tunnel will be located. :(
Can anyone find one? This is the best detail I could find.
(Does anyone else get the impression that almost the only maps available online are all stolen from the CIA World Factbook? Information Superhighway my ass...)
Haha, looks like some defensive EUians are out modding again. It's a shame that they can't laugh at themselves. Particularly when there's so much material.
Let me know when I can take the train from San Francisco to Los Angeles (for less than the time to drive and less than the cost to fly).
I am all for high-speed trains. The technologically is great. Wish passenger trains were more useful in the US.
But, have they considered the social impact of this?
I mean isn't the EU having a real tough time dealing with asylum seekers and integrating Muslims into their culture? Look at the French "no head scarves" ban, as an example. While this would make tourism to North Africa easier and improve the economies of those countries, is the EU ready to handle allowing more people (and the percentage of them that will either be illegal immigrants or asylum seekers) to come into the EU? I doubt it. The EU keeps Turkey out of the EU, in large part because Turkey is a Muslim country, and therefore not European enough (despite removing all references to Christianity from the now failed EU Constitution). Also, with the huge AIDS crisis in Africa, will the increase in movement mean an increase in European AIDS cases?
These are all problems humanity should solve, but being human we aren't going to solve them.
{exasperated_sigh} You know, technology would work a lot better if we could just keeps the humans out of the equation. {/exasperated_sigh}
And to you, everyone in America has the right to their own opinion, no matter how baseless and stupid it is. Also, we aren't fighting Islam, It's just a few bad apples in the barrel, Should all catholics be punished for what a few priests did?
Now back to the matter of the tunnel, It could be a good idea. Yes Spain and Morroco have disputes, but working together usually helps dissolve things like that. Most of Northen Africa is relitively undeveloped, that's because there is no easy way there for the relitively wealthier Europeans. The train will make an easy way to and from North Africa, if Morroco plays things right and encourages tourism, it will be a new place to visit, a new sight to see. It will bring more people in and with those people will come more money. In turn, those people will have to go through Spain to get there, spending more money. That's what everything's about. It will be expensive in the short run, but this is a long term investment. I think it will have a positive effect on Northern Africa which may slowly spread downward in years to come. We can only wait and see.
IIRC, "Islamism" is a (rather clumsy) alternative term for Wahabbi -- the fundamentalist flavor of Sunni Islam followed by bin Laden. Hope that helps.
that means definately more maroccans in spain...
its the same problem here like with the mexicans. illegal inmigration unstoppable, and theyre building a tunnel to over there, great idea.
i give "ansar" how our president was called by bush once, an a+.
The challenge to this lies not in refugees or economics but in engineering.
The deepest tunnel currently is in Japan and is 100m below a 140m channel. Engineering a tunnel 240m down is seriously non-trivial, and Japan is seriously hooked-in when it comes to engineering. Spain and Morocco, really have no hope of pulling this off without outsourcing the whole deal.
The tunnel would need to be 300m + 100m below sea level (1/4 mile). That depth presents numerous difficulties with removing seep water, air density, and a host of other things. The geology is not nearly as receptive to a tunnel as it was for the chunnel engineers and they'll find that it's much, much more difficult cutting through than the chalk that is present beneath the English Channel.
This is easily an order of magnitude more difficult to build than the chunnel was. I'd be surprised if it's ever built.
The EU keeps Turkey out of the EU, in large part because Turkey is a Muslim country...
Actually, it has much more to do with Turkey's incredibly poor record on human rights. A few years ago during the Danish Presidency, the European Council issued a set of requirements called the Coppenhagen Criteria, which basically made up a laundry list of minor atrocities perpetrated/ignored by the Turkish government that would have to be resolved before the country was considered for EU membership.
It's really easy to make blanket statements about the European community's supposed "intolerance" for the Islamic minority, but the criticism is far from water tight. For example, the mentioned "head scarf" policy, which is being discussed in terms of its enforcement in state-run public schools, also forbids the wearing of "obvious" religious symbols like skull caps and large crucifixes.
Many Africans enter Spain legitimately - jumping through all the necessary hoops. This in itself is not problematic. The trouble starts when their work Visas start to expire and they realize that the EU's uber-flimsy border control allows them to leave Spain and bounce around other countries in continental Europe almost indefinitely. The proposed rail link would have little or no impact on this problem because it deals with a different set of borders.
...Whether my Maker is prepared for the great ordeal of meeting me is another matter.
Churchill
Things are probably different in Europe (never taken a train there personally), but in the USA with our super-ghetto trains, it almost always takes longer to take a train than to drive. For commuting trains, I can take CalTrain from my house to my work. Takes about 20 min longer than driving, since it makes an obscene number of stops along the way. The only reason I'd take it is so I can read the paper while commuting. But a time saver it ain't (especially when you factor in time to get to and from the train stations).
Subways are better. BART's decent, but they'll probably never make it down to the South Bay...
As for "real" trains, all we've got is Amtrak. When I was in school, I thought about taking the train from Santa Barbara back home to San Jose. Thats about a 300 mile drive. Driving typically takes about 4-4.5 hours. The train takes (literally, I just looked it up) EIGHT HOURS and costs $82. I get 30mpg in my car so I can make the drive in about half the time and for half the cost. Hell I could *fly* to LA for about that and be there in 2 hours.
It really sucks, since I'd be totally willing to take trains to work or down to LA if they could ever manage to match a car for cost and speed...
This scenario will be in Railroad Tycoon 4 for sure...
--You will rephrase your request for me to go to hell. Goto statements are not acceptable programming constructs
There are some trains that can shift gauge, but most railway engineers think that's asking for trouble.
Another issue is loading gauge (essentially how big the cross section of the train can be and not create problems). The UK has a really tight loading gauge and the Chunnel has a HUGE loading gauge.
A Shadeless room is a brighter room.
Morocco exports a lot of goods to Europe. Some of them completely native like fruits and vegetables, phosphate, (hashich :p), etc. Others are produced by foreign companies outsourcing to Morocco (though not nearly as much as one would hope for) France, Spain, Germany, Italy and the U.K are some of Morocco's main economic partners.
:) I believe it gets around 2-3 million tourists a year (many of them people of Moroccan extraction residing in europe) which, while by no means comparable to Spain's 50 millions or France's 70 millions are still important to its economy and are a vital source of hard currency. That's some more traffic right there.
:)
It goes without saying That Morocco also imports from those countries quite a bit. Some more traffic right there.
Morocco is also a touristic destination. (And I am shamelessly plugging it when I say: Go visit! I swear you'll like it. Really
And last but not least, It is also a hub between Europe and Africa so part of many african countries' exports and imports also go through Morocco.
Anyways, My point is that there is PLENTY of traffic taking place between Spain and Morocco and that a tunnel or a bridge linking the two countries DOES make plenty of economic sense. As the article pointed out, talks about this have been going on for decades now and it is actually surprising this has not happened sooner (taking into account that The distance between Tangiers and Algeciras is a measly 10 miles).
And for those unfamiliar with the territorial "spats" between Morocco and Spain, it goes something like this:
A few hundred years ago, Spain conquered a couple of northern moroccan cities (sebta and imlilia a.k.a ceuta and melilla). They have been spanish ever since but Morocco still officially wants them returned (The truth is no moroccan I've ever known cares about that.) They are tax-free zones and a LOT of cheap contraband stuff (from eletronics to candy) comes from them. My first playstation most probably came from there
The Western Sahara is a different issue. Spain was ocuppying it during the days of european colonization and it was taken back about 3 decades ago at the end of a "million men" peaceful march. Since then, Spain has been trying to make it an independant country so that they could fish within it's territorial waters for cheap. Now THAT is a very touchy subject for your average moroccan. You know..pride, territorial integrity, yadda yadda. The government has been stalling a referendum supposed to take place there and giving incentives to Moroccans to relocate there in hopes of skewing a future vote.
Back to the topic. I'm a bit disappointed that the tunnel is going to be trains only. I was actually hoping for something that allows cars and trucks to travel through. I guess the ferry businesses lobbied against it to avoid certain bankruptcy.
Please, oh please, do not tell the local touts, tour guides and souvenir sales men where the train will stop in Tangier. I do not want to have to disappoint anyone when I refuse to pay 2 Euro for someone to hail a taxi for me.
It would connect the UK to Morocco. Gibraltar is British turf.
...Whether my Maker is prepared for the great ordeal of meeting me is another matter.
Churchill
For all the "Morocco has lots of terrorism" posts such as yours, I haven't seen one which mentions that Spain has a history much more tainted by terrorism and repressive governments than Morocco - mostly revolving around the struggles and subsequent political supression of sometimes-violent Basque separatists, by the far-right government (and before that, Franco's). A little more information can be found at this site.
Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
one of the largest problems with the channel tunnel has been illegal immigrants using (or attempting to use) it as a passageway to NHS, Finsbury Park, kebab stands, and other english "goodness." Whatever you think of the immigrants and their actions, this problem will likely be greater still for a tunnel direct from north africa.
Seriously, she's got to be the hottest chick ever! The only perfect 10 I've ever seen. Even though she doesn't really do nudes, her website is kick ass.
Get it all for free instead........ ed2k://|file|tiffany%20teen%20%281000%20pics%2btop less%20video%29.rar|290574707|d1e202620cd05f8d1825 0b5bf6d0f688|/
Pan-Continental Rally Race
Anybody else old enough to remember the movie?
Ahem,
"Gumball"
To the extent that they have violence, it's down in the Spanish Sahara, a culturally different area south of Morocco that the last few Kings of Morocco want to rule because of the mining resources, while the local Polisario guerillas don't want the kings.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
There was a situation in Afganistan whith the russian army. A long tunnel with a convoy, an explosion toward the front, for some reason the commanders sealed the entrance and exit with tanks, the resluting firesstorm and smoke killed 300-500 I believe. The tunnel was less than a mile long so there would quit a problem with 39 kilometers. Cars will probably be allowed but loaded on trains.
I eat my grapes at room temperature, cuz the cold ones hurt my teeth
Again bin Laden! Dude, stop washing US news, which is totally controlled by you know who. Oh yeah, 9/11 just happened and anyone not totally concurring with the US is a bad, bad boy. Dude, people could see things in a different way, and still not be a threat.
I've only tried Moroccan hash in Denmark, so I can't comment on what it's like if you get it locally :-)
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
The US media is not controlled. If anything, most of the television media is *leftist* (obviously cut out Fox).
Stop bitching and making up conspiracy theories.
They modded you "Flamebait" because there's no "Dismal Unfunny Cunt" category at the moment.
Well if that doesn't just make me feel like an ignorant jackass. Ha.
Yeah, just what we need, an elevator inside the world's tallest lightening rod. And it's long enough (outside even geosynchronous orbits) that most space junk can hit it. Wonderful idea.
Hmmm. This definitely will be easier than between France and England...
It's so much fun fucking with EUians. And easy too.
So, if I'm correct, all of the links to the west of this map are either completed or funded...
As most of this is simply land routes, when are we gonna start the Siberia-Alaska route???
I know there's more to be considered...the extreme cold is one...the other major problem is that the area under consideration is geologically active. Not good for a tunnel...the other problem is that a portion of the "best route" is a protected wild life reserve.
The only problem is that this (like free trade zones) will not be good for the US economy...
How on Earth could it ever be profitable to connect Spain and Morocco? It's impossible. Madrid is the only city in Spain that could rival London, Paris or Brussels. And it already takes 6 hours to get from Madrid to the proposed tunnel! And then, there is no large business city on the other side. No business traveler will be taking the train. The plane will always be preferred on such distances.
Am I making sense? Had to work throughout the night.
You forgot about tourism being the biggest industry.
Are you sure? How about agricultural products?
In boston they built an undersea tunnel by just digging a trench, dropping in a tunnel, then filling up the trench again...pretty cool I thought.
Details of the Ted Williams bridge here.
Your signatures belong to me.
... a lot can happen between Europe and Africa in just 750 million years.
While I am disgusted by the way in which the government has pandered to the racist element and while I agree the current government has allowed Australias proud reputation of objectivity to be sullied, I still agree with a strict policy against illegal refugees.
If there is a distinctly Australian trait, it's the concept of a fair go for everybody. Why should illegal refugees be given precedence over those that couldn't afford to pay people smugglers? It is not fair to those left behind who face real dangers, that the selfish queue jumpers garner all the attention because they're lucky enough to have access to the spin of western media and legal aid.
If some of these immigrants have real cause to flee their country of origin, let them in, but generally it is not the truly desperate that turn up on our shores, it is the greedy and manipulative.. These people glue up the works for all the valid refugees making the entire process difficult for everybody. It is precisely these kind of people I would prefer not to have in this country. A strict policy is short term pain for long term gain for everybody and hopefully it will send a message that economic refugees will not find satisfaction in Australia.
That said, while the refugees are in a situation of their own making I believe we should be doing our best to help them lead fulfilling lives while in custody. We simply cannot expect people to put their lives on hold for an indefinate period while their claims are checked.
Strangely enough, there does not seem to be so many european posts about that subject, that is truly interesting.
For my fellow globalized-citizens from America, two things :
- Oh no, those fucking africans are going to invade Europe, because there will be no more control over immigration. Maybe you are not aware of it, but we have something called in here the European Union. And that means that England and France are virtually borderless for the transportation of people. This is not because you red it in the press that the train project will be the same. Why ? Because Morocco is not part of the European Union. It is only applying for a "special relationship". Thus, one can imagine that controls there will be tight, very tight. Spain has been sailing a tight ship so far.
- What happens if an islamist/terrorist is plantin a bomb out there ?Stop being so neurotic about that. People with dark skin don't have bombs in their suitcases. Only people with mad minds have bombs in their suitcases. Morocco suffered a terrorist attack ; Bali suffered a terrorist attack. Don't you have the slightest impression than terrorists are focusing on the shifting of Islam from the inside ? No ? Think about it. There will be no more risk for a bomb here than in every other place in the world.
What's interesting here is how spain is changing its mind about morocco. After all the fud about the Turah island, this is one more step forward to enhance the relationship between Spain and Morocco. It a step for solving the immigration problem, since this is a path to rationalize the constant flux of immigrants coming to Europe from Spain. It is a step for integrating North Africa into Europe. It is a step for making the Arab people understand that they are *not* rejected. Etc.Tough there have been some funny jokes (I loved the thread about grammar/spelling), people should speak more quietly about issues that they don't know anything about.
Regards,
Jdif
Let's overcome our weakness.
Zacarias Moussaoui, the so-called "20th hijacker", who survived the planebombings on the WTC and Pentagon, is a French citizen from a Moroccan family. An avowed al Queda terrorist, he is backed by a network that apparently has cells like the one caught in Morocco this year.
Morocco is a whole country, and of course al Queda operatives have lived and been apprehended in the USA, among other countries. And none of the Moroccans I've met in either Africa or NYC have seemed to me anything but just normally-adjusted people, or occasionally "intriguiging" if very ethnic. However, Wahabi terrorism is festering in the nooks and crannies of Morocco, and it does no good to be complacent about it.
On the other hand, these "terrorists" create only sabotage, until they get media cooperation, and terrorism exists only in the minds of the terrorized. When you fear the construction of something because "terrorists" will target it, then *you* are a terrorist, spreading fear. As we say in New York: don't get scared, get even. Harness your emotional reaction to turn outwards, embrace the world, and do something for harmony and progress. Learn something among strangers, and get them to know you. In our close-packed world, of ever increasing power over one another's wellbeing, making friends is becoming a matter of global survival. Intercontinental trains will go a long way towards salvation, if we use them well.
--
make install -not war
Why dig through the ground? It seems to make senes to have a tunnel a 75m feet below the surface suspended by floats and chained to the sea floot. I know that making a tunnel strong enough to stand up to the pressure at the depth would be a good deal of work, but it just might be less work than digging a tunnel under the ground under the sea. Prefabr sections can be floated out to the under construction tunnel and sunk right into place.
I think I have something here.
Welcome to the land of the free...pay toll ahead...no photography...please open your bag...
Anyone have any solid ideas why they'd choose a 40km route over a ~13km one?
Then they would be only the third longest tunnel. Whats the fun in that?
This is definitely an interesting thing (I like engineering projects, so I think it's probably a good thing as well), but land already connects Asia to Europe; although Africa is connected to Asia by land, it is not necessary to use this connection to connect Europe and Asia.
To any of you that don't work on transportation networks...
Do you have the slightest idea how much shorter the trip from Europe to Africa will be? Imagine Holland for example, which exports wheat to African countries in many situations. Their cheapest way to travel is of course by road, but too time consuming and it needs a trip through Continental Europe, bosphorus (Turkey, which they don't like at all), then Syria, Libanon, Israel, Egypt, etc. Now we get a direct link from Spain to Marocco.
Here is my prediction on how things will go, if this actually is successful.
1. Marocco and Spain will get rich from customs and the rest of the two continents will depend heavily on them for trade routes.
2. The English shipping industry will loose considerable amounts of money (they already did with the England/France tunnel).
3. Marocco will once again gain political influence in Africa, and will of course probably win over Western Sahara (there's been a disbute there for a long time, in case you didn't know).
4. Someone will figure out a way to involve Linux in this, eventhough Microsoft advertisements will fill the tunnel.
In case anyone wants to know more about the geography of transportation, a good intro is located at: http://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/
Actually you're missing smth here.
:p
Madrid is only 4 hours and a half away from Malaga on a pseudo-high speed train. Once the TGV-AVE (High speed) rail comes to Malaga (1 hour car drive from Algeciras-Gibraltar) it'd be piece of cake to connect everything to the new AVE railroad which
will probably reduce the time to Madrid to 3 hours.
Stretch that westwards and you've got yourself Africa connected to Portugal as well.
How many hundred of thousands of muslims cross Spain from France every year on vacation? A big
police-emergency operation is devised every year to drive all this people south from France to Algeciras where they massively get onboard ferries (somewhat like D-Day but with old cars)
If done properly this tunnel will cost twice as budgeted but will be eventually (circa 2100) profitable.
Look, that's not what I'm saying at all! Yes, I did a Google search before I posted. Go ahead and investigate terrorist activities in Morocco over the past several months. It's not like you can ignore them or the fact that they have, for the most part, been linked to al Qaeda in one way or another.
That said, if I had a mod point I'd give you one because you are totally right about Spain and the Basques. As an American (and therefore removed from most of this strife), I'm afraid I do tend to focus on Muslim terrorists because - unlike the Basques - they attacked us here. The hardcore segment (al Qaeda for instance) seem to have no points other than, death to Isreal, death to the 'infidels' (whoever the clerics say they are that month), removal of all foreigners from Arab held lands, and general subjugation of all other religions and peoples world-wide. They doesn't seem to be a middle ground in reasoning with them, even if that were an option.
The Basques are pretty uncouth also as they have targeted officials and skyscrapers. While they are not united (the ETA is but one group), most would be pacified if given their own national identity. That, at least, seems more reasonable to me, and certainly something to talk about. That doesn't mean they couldn't engineer a tunnel bombing, I just think al Qaeda would be the more likely to do it. That's not being a creedist or racist, that's being a realist.
As an aside, the Basques have apparently been doing a good deal of their training in North Africa. Care to guess how they're sponsored or who they train with? Their goals may be different but their 'tools of the trade' are the same.
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
No matter what the final cost is going to be, it's going to be a tiny fraction of what the US spent in Iraq. And dollar for dollar, it's going to be far more effective in promoting democracy, helping economic development, and stopping terrorism.
Convincing argument, but no matter how much the US spends in Iraq, it will cost just a fraction of the lives that were spent in the Cultural Revolution in China.
Funny, that's what I always think about most US military spending.
Haha, funny, but I think you forget that THE SKY IS BLUE! So clearly the tunnel is better then military spending, but less better then the cultural revolution in China, or the large cake they made in France.
Moron. Way to stay on topic. Why did I have to spend my mod points already? Someone mod this idiot Off Topic.
The problem is that something is very unlikely become profitable only in 2100. You have to take into account the huge upfront cost required, while the revenues come in only later, which have to be discounted. And given the somewhat bleak economic basis that builds on, the required discount rate would have to be very high. 3 hours to the tunnel from Madrid is still too long - it takes about 1 hour from London, Paris and Brussels to the Eurotunnel. Add to that 1/2 hour in the tunnel and you have 2 1/2 hours. And still, only half the potential passengers uses the Eurostar. On the Spanish-Moroccon tunnel, this time would at least be 5 hours. You can't use it for a daytrip. Don't get me wrong - I love travelling by train compared to the plane, but I am also economist who sees the costs of building this tunnel.
Judging by the state of the British rail network, a trip from Edinburgh to the south coast of england would hardly be possible. Going all the way to tangiers would take a month (29 days through Britain, 1 day through France, and 1 day through Spain and the tunnel).
Find funky gifts
Sounds really interesting but the implementation of this could be really difficult. Aren't Europe and Africa two different tectonic plates?? This could cause some problems in designing the tunnel. On the other hand, I'm not really sure at what rate the plates move relative to eachother and maybe one could build *some* flexibility into the design. And the other problem could be that the Straits of Gibraltar at some points is really deep. Building a tunnel *that* deep could also raise some issues!
Repeat with me: Propaganda!
Fourtunatelly this whole thing will not be built. Try to imagine the last spanish high speed train fiasco ported to this level. Scary!
What's in a Sig?
What's in a sig?
Yes, it is very popular with male homosexuals, so I'm told. They have a very "liberal" attitude to such things over there. It was a favourite destination of Kenneth Williams. Ooh er Matron!
It would be a cool project though.
L'AVE esta retrassat fins al 2007 ara, segons les ultimes informacions, encara que diuen que arribara a Barcelona al 2005 ;)
Pero amb aquest govern... deu sap
May the source be with you!
my bad. Grammar too.
This tunnel would help out the people transit between the two countries, Spain is used every year as launch point for lots of north-africans that go back to their home for summer vacation, and the ferries are quiet plenty that times (some times they can't even stand all the traffic generated) so it would relieve all of this and help out the economy of south of Spain.
It would also help to deliver all Morrocco goods to Europe since right now it have to be done thru air or ship it thru the sea (both of them slow or expensive) so now a lot of railroad commercial traffic will be generated to import goods from morrocco. That means a boost for both countries economical relationship, and the costs of building the tunnel are also fairly cheap since it's a short way.
May the source be with you!
There are major ventilation problems to overcome before road tunnels of great length become reality, especially underwater where drilling ventilation shafts is not an option. It may be more practical when all of us are driving electric cars, but while we're driving around in greenhouse gas manufacturing machines long tunnels are not smart.
Link
I really doubt the International Labour Organization would bother with a comprehensive study of discrimination against Morrocan migrant workers working in Spain if there weren't quite a few working there.
The fact is, much like migrant Palestinians working in Israli underwear factories, the Morrocans provide an endless and inexpensive labour force to the Spanish industry. The reason why you weren't able to get a work visa is that you're an American, which means they have to worry about the inevitable fact that you will piss and moan when they step all over your basic rights.
Remember, you're an American which means that you're FAR from average. Sometimes being the biggest and the strongest has its drawbacks.
...Whether my Maker is prepared for the great ordeal of meeting me is another matter.
Churchill
Shihar wondered whether this is wasteful government spending.
My response is simple: no, it isn't. It is an effective and cheap means of promoting economic development and the development of democratic societies in Muslim nations in Northern Africa. Those kinds of cooperative infrastructure projects are, in fact, the only choice Europe seems to have for peaceful co-existence with its African and Middle Eastern neighbors.
To give Americans some idea of its order of magnitude, I made a comparison to a recent Middle East-related project by the US: the tunnel's cost is going to be a tiny fraction of what the US spent on the war in Iraq. The war in Iraq also was justified as promoting the development of democracies in Muslim societies. In fact, its cost is probably going to be small compared even to something like a single stealth bomber (which costs several billion dollars).
So, do you get it now? I responded to Shihar's question by a cost/benefit comparison with a related project recently carried out by the US, as well as with standard military hardware. Sorry if I didn't spell it out clearly enough the first time for you to understand.
The other people tend not to react all that sensibly either when they see flames and realise thay are 15km from an exit.
Actually, I've heard that many casualties in tunnels occur because an accident happens, there's a fire, and people stay calm and sensible, go out and look at the fire a few hundred meters away. They don't realize they're in a tunnel and they need to get the fuck away until the fire is already overwhelming them. If they'd just run away immediately many more would make it.
I believe posters are recognized by their sig. So I made one.
Full disclosure ahead: I am a Spaniard, I lived for 2 years in Morocco (Casablanca) and I work in the railway business (software engineering, not civil engineering, but you can't have it all, can you?)
/ guadarrama/), which will connect Madrid to the northern cities of Segovia and Valladolid. And last, but not least, the longest metro line in Europe, currently under construction, is the Line 9 in Barcelona, which will also feature fully automated trains (http://www.finanzas.com/id.5214701/noticias/notic ia.htm, in Spanish).
Believe it or not, but this is actually possible. Spain might not be any more the country many of you thought it was. Civil engineering in Spain and the rest of Europe is pretty advanced these days, as far as huge tunnels are concerned. Just look at Madrid's Metro and its spectacular growth here: http://www.metropla.net/eu/mad/metrosur.htm. The Line 12 was put in service in just 3+ years, and spans 40+ kilometres of underground tracks and stations. Look at the 27 kilometre high speed rail double tunnel currently being built beneath the Sierra de Guadarrama, a granitic mountain range 2500 metres high (http://www.geodata.it/english/progetti/gallunghe
However, having said this, I don't believe we will actually see this happen in our lifetimes. First of all, 27e6 euros (30e6 $) aren't enough even for preliminary studies of such a complex undertaking. The current Spanish government is extremely interested in infrastructure and development work if and only if two or more of the following apply: a) political gains are to be obtained, b) civil engineering firms tycoons line up their pockets even more and c) the european union foots a significant percentage of the bills.
And then comes Morocco, a developing country en route to democracy. Morocco has comparatively few transportation infrastructures deployed: around 1000 km of electrified, standard gauge railways. You simply don't build a tunnel to nowhere, unless Spain and the EU are strongly commited to finance development works there (and they currently aren't, and most likely won't be in a foreseeable future, even though it might be a hell of a good idea to even out differences and further good neighbour relationships in the Mediterranean area).
Lastly, governments of Spain and Morocco are at odds over several issues, the least important of which are the ones that got more attention in previous comments: territorial disputes and terrorism. The main troubles between Morocco and Spain (and the rest of EU) are immigration and commerce, and both of them receive a harsh treatment by the Spanish government. No compromises will be agreed upon unless forced by a third party, just because such an attitude improves the outlook of Aznar and his cabinet among the population right wing.
So, unfortunately, I believe this tunnel is just vapor, and will dissipate sooner or later depending on the result of the ongoing UN-sponsored Western Sahara negotiations...
Ivan
An eye for an eye anD%$"%R:=\D\q[NO SIG]
Although that stretch of water is called (if you speak English) the Strait of Gibraltar, the embarrassing colonial leftover that is the rock of Gibraltar itself isn't the nearest point to morocco.
Have a look at the map here and you'll see what I mean.
The Western Sahara is a different issue. Spain was ocuppying it during the days of european colonization and it was taken back about 3 decades ago at the end of a "million men" peaceful march. Since then, Spain has been trying to make it an independant country so that they could fish within it's territorial waters for cheap. Now THAT is a very touchy subject for your average moroccan. You know..pride, territorial integrity, yadda yadda. The government has been stalling a referendum supposed to take place there and giving incentives to Moroccans to relocate there in hopes of skewing a future vote.
To put it differently, the Saharawi, the indigeneous people in West Sahara, has tried to make themselves independent since the 50's. In 1975 the Spanish colonial administration was replaced with a Moroccan and Mauretanian colonial administration. The UN and the ICJ has repeatedly rejected the Moroccan and Mauretanian claims to West Sahara.
http://www.wsahara.net/ seems to represent the view of the subjungated.
(The world doesn't seem to be all that upset. I guess colonies are all right then, as long as the colonial masters aren't westerners.)
Building a dam would be a better option, then put the train on top. The view would be better, the amount of hydroelectric and wind power generated would be awesome and the revenue obtained from charging ships to pass through via locks would make both countries financial superpowers. The only snag would be the occasional submarine stuck in the hydroelectric turbines. Underwater locks anyone ?
I believe that the only thing that you omitted is that the "million men" peaceful march was carefully organized by former king Hassan II during Franco's agony (which was very long).
Had Franco died suddenly, the situation would almost certainly be very different now. But the truth is that nobody is playing fair in Western Sahara's issues.
Since then, Spain has been trying to make it an independant country so that they could fish within it's territorial waters for cheap. Now THAT is a very touchy subject for your average moroccan. You know..pride, territorial integrity, yadda yadda. The government has been stalling a referendum supposed to take place there and giving incentives to Moroccans to relocate there in hopes of skewing a future vote. ;)
He he, everyone's interests are involved, including US and France, that have got licence for phosphate mines among other things... granted by Morocco, that would, of course be invalid should Sahara become independent.
Of course, I take for granted that Spain has also economic interests there, but our media will not talk about it
A few hundred years ago, Spain conquered a couple of northern moroccan cities (sebta and imlilia a.k.a ceuta and melilla). They have been spanish ever since but Morocco still officially wants them returned (The truth is no moroccan I've ever known cares about that.)
Morocco didn't even exist as a country when "we had" ceuta and melilla. But it is true that they are, indeed, in Morocco's territory. The solution is pretty hard. They are two cities full of spanish people, with spanish culture! what do you do with them, if you hand control to Morocco? Treat them like tourists? (shut up, Arzallus). So, it's hard that the situation will change. The territory they take is very small, and Morocco benefits from the close distance for commerce, etc. so it's used primarly as a Trowable politically, as there is no political will to have the affair solved.
What are you thinking? The post above me expresses a completely legitimate, mainstream european view... (btw, it's hard to know just how backward 'local culture' can be unless you've experienced it first-hand. It's not like in America-restaurants are open from 12-2 and 6-9. McDonald's does brisk business in many places because it's the _only_ place that's open at certain times, and that's not at all a bad thing.) Plus, if it weren't for McDonalds and Starbucks, foreign tourists wouldn't have anywhere to use the bathroom...
Excellent, yet another way for illegal immigrants to enter Europe, I hope they know that there's a huge amount of terrorists which seem to come from Northern-Africa, Algeria etc, I don't see how this is a good thing, it certainly contributes to illegal immigration into the UK.
Alas, the surrounding hills have already been visually damaged by an eye-soring 2000 windmills.
And now access roads, highway connections and a new highway will be built. A new 150km train track to Sevilla will be needed as well to connect the tunnel to the high speed rail network.
It seems like Spain is well on track on destroying yet another of their natural assets under the guise of "development" from which only contracting firms and the feudal land owners (most land in Spain is still held by nobility) will profit.
Investors will bleed money like those that invested in the Chunnel. Even after huge write-offs and debt restructuring the Chunnel is still not profitable, and never will be. Just wait till the first repairs are going to be needed, or another fire or explosion damages it beyond repair.
WMWECOL (Wiping My Weeping Eyes, Crying Out Loud)
so spain wont return ceuta and melilla to morocco because its "full of spanish culture" but spain wants gib. back from england...
talk about double standards...
-- http://electronicintifada.net --
First of all, this will employ a lot of people. Salaries to contractors, sub-contractors and infrastructure around them will be a major factor in the total cost. All of these people pay tax. By reducing the number of unemployed in the area the Moroccan and Spanish government would be reducing the social welfare costs and increase their tax revenue.
Secondly, once completed the increased trade it brings will increase tax revenue, and also bring more employment.
These massively impact the real profitability of the project, while they won't show up in a profit and loss statement, and is a major reason why government involvement in these kinds of major infrastructure projects is warranted.
Looking only at moving people is short sighted. The real advantage is reduced cost of moving goods to and from all of western Africa, where the alternative is ship or plane. For goods shipped by boat today, a train link could save repackaging for delivery in continental Europe or parts of north western Africa.
Copy Star Trek. Dam the thing. Run the train over the top of the dam or inside it. Use the dam to generate buttloads of electrical power. Locks can be used to pass ships as needed.
Kill two birds with one stone.
Probably would help develop Africa with cheap and abundant power, let alone Europe getting a boost from less need of nuclear or other type of power plants.
Could be a great project to show that the EU has relevance and can work together.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
As others have pointed, Spain has issues with terrorism as well. And so did Britain in the late 80s and early 90s when the Channel Tunnel was being planned and constructed, but it didn't stop it from being built. There have been three major terrorist attacks (WTC 1993, WTC 2003 and the Pentagon) in the North Eastern United States in the last decade, but it doesn't stop the US from commencing construction projects.
The kids outside of my college said that this is Lyndon Larouche idea.
It'll be freight driven in large part. Drive your truck from the UK or Germany, or ... down to some freight yard in Southern Spain roll onto a train (or maybe crane the cargo container onto a train, and unload a few hours later handy for all of West Africa. Take televaisions down and fresh fruit back. This could have a massive impact on the economy of North Western Africa.
I already detailed some problems of solving the situation in ceuta & melilla, that is, we in Spain talk about what to do there. Do you think it would be fair for the spanish people there to say "Hey, now you live in Morocco, be happy with your new king and don't forget to shut up or you might be imprisioned". Is not that simple. But still, as I already said, they are in Morocco's territory. ... we really don't care very much about it. Our government can say whatever they like (it's a colony in the 21st century, blah blah blah) but it's not that the people in spain want gibraltar back from england more than, say, peace in the vasque country or a better job.
And for gibraltar is the same case. It is in spanish territory, yet people is not very interested or worried about it. But in gibraltar spanish and english is spoken, and UK and Spain are in the UE, so
This post is a troll. It should have been given away by the linux reference, but anyway:
Exporting wheat from Holland to Africa? I'd think the very densely populated Netherlands would be an importer of raw basic foodstuffs. (Not processed foods).
That aside nothing is transported by land through the Middle Eastern route described. With current politics it'd definitely not be the "cheapest". Get a clue: long haul bulk transports are done by sea. YHBT. IHBT. WHABT.
Any sufficiently advanced libertarian utopia is indistinguishable from government.
I am not very much confident in the success of this project... Spanish railway system is horrible.
The most recent example is Madrid-Lleida High Speed Railway. It was supposed to "fly" at 350 Km/hour, and hardly ever goes over 200 Km/hour.
nirvanis
In an ideal world this could connect the two major continents with each other allowing travel across the euro-asian and african continent. Air travel is not working out that well. The airlines are near bankrupt and the airports are full with already several accidents caused by to many aircraft being in to small a space. Plus train travel is a hell of a lot more comfortable then airtravel.
Of course this is not an ideal world so I think that it will not happen. After all this is just a study. No actual building is going on yet.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
..use a gauge that's mainly plain?
Except that the EU is trying to improve economic growth by adding transport infrastructure, especially to southern europe. This project would fit perfectly into those plans (in fact, it might be one of those plans, but I'm too lazy to look it up).
the biggest cost in doing the Big Dig - Unions.
When I was an aircrewman in the US Navy, we laid the "groundwork" for such an endevor. I flew in P3-Orions - subhunters. We would regularly drop many, many sonobuoys, metal cylinders about three feet long, between the straits, screening for Soviet subs. This went on continuously, and most likely still does, for many many years. So the foundation for such an endevor is being built on US technology!
You have to factor in more costs for the car than just gas (maintenance, purchase, taxes, ...). Although, on the other hand, I suppose the train side has its costs attached to it too (transport going to and from the station).
I can only talk about the belgian rail system, which is likely not representative for EU rail in general. But over here we have L and P trains, which stop everywhere, and IR/IC trains, which only stop in the major population centres. I can take a train from antwerp to brussels, roughly 30 miles, for about $5 and be there in 30 minutes, which is no slower than a car ride in the best conditions, and a lot faster during rush hour. Antwerp and brussels also have decent intracity public transport systems (tram and bus in antwerp, metro and bus in brussels). There are regulations here which dictate that where ever you are you can never be further than so many metres from a bus stop (don't remember the exact distance, but it's less than a kilometre). Also busses are free for kids younger than 12, adults older than 65, and public transport in general is considerably cheaper for students and large families. I go everywhere using busses and trains. It works. But ofcourse, it only works because belgium is a tiny country, and so there aren't large uneconomic distances to bridge.
And you know what the funniest thing is? People over here complain about public transport not being viable as an alternative to cars too. Public transport is simply never good enough for the majority, because it takes away the perceived freedom of movement you have with cars, not because it's slower or more expensive.
I guess my grandchildren will just stare when I tell them the one about the guy who decided to drive from point A to point B, where A and B are separated by an ocean. Pretty soon there won't *be* any major landmasses separated by oceans.
"Gee, gramps, I guess you had to be there. Well, gotta go, I need to catch the elevator to Orbital Station 9 or I'll miss the next bus to Tycho."
Maybe it won't be so bad, after all....
"Left" and "Right" have absolutly no meaning in U.S politics. Why don't you just use the correct terms "Democratic" and "Republican". Don't worry about the actual distinction; you can use them interchangeably.
The city name is Tangier, not Tangiers.
The depth of 400m is not a big deal to deal with. Plenty of verticle shaft mines are dug 3,500m deep. The biggest problem with very deep mining is that the ambient temperature increases roughly 15C for every 1,000m. Obviously a 70C envirnoment is not great for miners, so they need cooling equipment. The +6C at the deepest part of this rail tunnel is not a big deal.
As far as cutting through harder stone, read up on NYC's Water Tunnel #3. Workers are excavating about 17 meters per day at a 7 meter diameter, at a depth of about 200m. They are boring through granite, a very hard rock. The tunnel is partially operational right now, but will be 100km long when completed.
"Spain, Morocco to build Undersea Terrorist Target."
Keeping an barrier to africa might be wise considering harmful viruses & bacteries that's present on the african continent.
Esp, since living things might tag along on the train....
..."Spirited Away"
Wicked country. I highly recommend everyone go there. I went for a week at Easter. You need 3-4 weeks to do it properly. The ancient old town of Fez is amazing dating back to 300AD or something ridiculous. The intercity trains are excellent, better than many UK trains. Thought the locomotive on ours broke down when we were going over night from Fez to Marrkech. It stopped for 4 hours in the middle of the desert. IT was amazing. THe sky was full of stars and then slowly the sun came up preducing one of the most beuatiful sun rises I ahve ever seen. All brilliant blues, pinks and reds. WE were in the middle of no where. And the morroccans are really really friendly. Just watch out. All the women in bars are pros. We found out only after we thought we were doing really well with the local ladies.
-- Karma Karma Karma Karma, Karma Chameleon - Boy George
In California, for example, Reagan pushed to have the interstate come right out into the Fisherman's Wharf area, but that got nixed. In the Twin Cities, where I live, we have a "Days of Rondo" celebration every year -- the Rondo neighborhood in Saint Paul having been cut in two and basically destroyed by the construction of the highway. (Poor [and black] neighborhood, had no political clout to defend itself.)
Anyway, though, we paid such an expense before, once. The social cost to this one would be less, but the physical costs of construction would boggle the mind. The Minneapolis airport's tunnel for light rail was a huge endeavor, and that's when the city's been planning ahead for twenty-odd years at least.
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
What will they think of next? A train crossing between Britain and Gibraltar?
SpamNet - a spam blocker that really works
They just broke through on Deep Tunnel, a 109 mile tunnel network, 150 to 300 feet below the Chicago metro area, a 27 year effort to clean up the water. So there is a boring machine that will soon be looking for a job.
Spain conquered a couple of northern moroccan cities (sebta and imlilia a.k.a ceuta and melilla
Sory but beginning with the capture of Ceuta in 1415, Portugal took all the chief ports,Moroccan coast,except Melilla and Larache, both of which fell to Spain.
(Ceuta and other cities are lost to Spain in 1640.)
Everything you've mentioned is something that previously didn't work so well, and now it works well. Evolutionary change, not revolutionary. The only exception is the cell phone thing, that's roughly the only technological thing of 25 years I can think of at the moment that's really an upheaval.
Of course, that's the humans I'm talking about, there. Infectious diseases, meanwhile, have made absolutely massive technological strides in the same period of time. From a disease standpoint, the development of AIDS and Ebola can be considered a technical achievement about on the level of nanotech.
Anyway, while your points are nice and all, they maybe don't relate a lot to the post you're responding to. A manufacturable nanotech machine that could do *anything* particularly deterministic or of note would be a revolutionary upheaval on the scale of the first stored-program computer or the atomic bomb. If we can get to there by 2030, I'd consider that believable. But from there, there's some massive technical hurdles. You have to go through at least one more truly revolutionary leap to get to the point of nanomachines that can do something like manufacture thousands of miles of concrete, and several to ten evolutionary leaps of the size of the development of the transistor-- most having to do just with the *safety* of the thing-- before it could used to lay pipe in a project like this.
- Super Ugly Ultraman
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
Funny, I'd swear that wasn't there last night...
I had been hoping for a bridge.
Hey kids, there's only 5 days left 'til Yak Shaving Day!
From the article: "_plan of works_ to start as early as next year, with an estimated initial cost of $30m."
That means that this is just the PLAN OF WORK, not the tunnel itself, in fact most of the 30$m will be for the sounding of the sea bed.
Of course cars and trucks can pass through the tunnel. They'll be ferried on train cars, just like on the Chunnel and other long distance tunnels.
The reason for "rail only" restrictions is because of the logistical implications of having car accidents in submarine tunnels, or long tunnels of any kind. Trains can still have problems, but far fewer than separately driven cars.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
For several decades, engineers have been suggesting that we dam the Straight of Gibraltar. This would have to be a rather large dam, of course, but it is well within the feasible range.
...
Such a dam would be fairly thick, and putting a road and/or a railway on top would be part of the design.
But the main argument for doing it is that there's a good net flow into the Mediterranean through the straight. A dam would cause the water level to start dropping. After a couple of decades, it would be the world's most powerful generator of electricity.
This would cause the shoreline to move out considerably in a lot of countries. But it would solve Venice's problem of slowly sinking into the mud. Venice would be high and dry, unless they built a ring of dykes to hold river water.
An addendum to the proposal is to dam the Bosporus. This would cause the Mediterranean sea level to drop faster, while preserving the level of the Black Sea. And it would eventually provide more electricity.
In both cases, there is also the large amount of shipping to deal with. But that would just mean a set of locks comparable to what we already have in the Suez and Panama canals.
It's also interesting to consider the effect of a major earthquake or terrorist bomb after the level of the Mediterranean has dropped 100 meters or so
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
What's the point? No one lives in Morocco these days. All their former inhabitants live in either Belgium or Holland these days.
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
By Peregil Island of course
What the fuck that country would be? Eritrea?
Hardly a North African country. Where did you "learn" geography (and spelling...)? In an American school?
Something like 80% of the cannabis smoked in Europe comes from Morrocco.
If that's not a strategic partner what is one?
If you've read "Venus on the Halfshell," you'd know that nuking a trainful of your favorite brand of pervert is not particularly effective, long-term ;)
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
Greed is excessive or reprehensible acquisitiveness . (Merriam-Webster) What evidence do you have that the actions of McDonalds are excessive or reprehensible?
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
That should of course read WTC 2001.
Even if it took 30-60 minutes longer, it's so much less stressful than driving on the jersey turnpike! And the speed is not just cause of traffic on the 'pike, it's cause of restroom pit stops, and cause the trains go fast, zoomy!
I grew up on the west coast, and took caltrain for four months. Yes, it sucks (though the limited stop version is much better). I took BART for four years from san francisco to berkeley; it's pretty good. Metro-North here in new york is a better commuter railway than both, though (i think).
Depends how far along he is in his Scientology studies at the time. If he's OT7, shouldn't the magic alien Xenu come to his rescue?
Al Qaeda is bin Laden's vehicle for WWIII. He hopes to rule a Muslim world, or serve at the top of a Muslim afterlife, after running Apocalypse brinksmanship. All the "Palestinian", "Afghani", "Iraqi", "American", "Jew", "Saudi" and other propaganda is his way of motivating people to war. His enemies' moral transgressions are a means to an end, just like they were for Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Bush, and every other despicable fearmonger. Ignorance->fear->anger->violence. The deepest "cause" of the Al Qaeda planebombings in NYC and DC is our human acceptance of hatred, which can cause us to act as demented mob, bent on destruction, no matter the costs.
Wahabism is comparable to Hasidism among Jews and Mennonism among Amish Christians; I'm sure Hinduism also features a feudal tribal rejection of post-"Enlightenment" society. However, Wahabis distinguish themselves by their zeal for jihad, and their access to the actual tools of apocalypse. The Taliban took Afghanistan from their Pashtun base in Pakistan; their Al Qaeda allies would like nothing better these days than to get control of Pakistan's nuclear "Islamic Bomb". Last weekend, Pakistani president Musharraf was almost killed by a botched carbomb - trendy "Wahabi beliefs" include killing anyone, Muslim or not, to position for global destruction.
"He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." - Frank Herbert, _Dune_
--
make install -not war
Don't any of the mods here have sarcasm detectors? Sheesh, it's pretty obvious this wasn't flamebait, but sarcasm.
iji iji iji iji iji iji jtiji iji iji iji iji iji
iji iji iji iji iji ijjDMNQtiji iji iji iji iji ij
iji iji iji iji iji cXMNMNMNQjiji iji iji iji iji
iji iji iji iji ijcSMNMNMNMNHJiji iji iji ij iji ij
iji iji iji iji iSWMNMNMNMHJiji iji iji ij iji iji
iji iji iji iji6WMNMNMNMNYiji iji Jciji iji iji ij
iji iji iji i5WMNMNMNMN5iji iji JHMNSc iji iji iji
iji iji iji5NMNMNMNMW5iji iji JHMNMN MWSiji iji iji
iji iji ijcXMNMNMNMNNYiji ijtKMNMN MNMNMW6iji iji i
iji iji iji jDMNMNMNMNHJijtQMNMN MNMNMNMNMW5iji iji
iji itciji iji QMNMNMNMNKDMNMN MNMNQWMNMNMNMN5iji i
ijitKMWSiji iji jQMNMNMNMNMN MNMNQtijSWMNMNMNMNYiji
itQMNMNMW6iji iji tKMNMNMN MNMNKtiji icSMNMNMNMNHJi
iJHMNMNMNMW6iji ijcSMNMN MNMNMNDjiji ijicXMNMNMNN5i
ijiYNMNMNMNMN5ijiSWMNM MNMNMNMNMNDciji ijicDMNW6iji
iji i5NMNMNMNMNSWMNM MNMNHNMNMNMNMNXciji iji 5iji i
iji iji5WMNMNMNMNM MNMNN5ij5NMNMNMNMNSciji iji iji
iji iji i6WMNMNM MNMNW5iji ij6WMNMNMNMWSiji iji iji
iji iji ijiSWM MNMNW6iji iji tKMNMNMNMNXciji iji ij
iji iji iji cSMNWSiji iji tQMNMNMNMNDjiji iji iji
iji iji ij iji c6ciji iji QMNMNMNMNQjiji iji iji ij
iji iji iji iji iji ijjDMNMNMNMNQtiji iji iji iji
iji ij iji iji iji ijcXMNMNMNMNKtiji iji iji iji ij
iji iji iji iji iji jQMNMNMNHJiji iji iji iji iji
ij iji iji iji iji iji tKMNHJiji iji iji iji iji ij
iji iji iji iji iji iji tYiji iji iji iji iji ij ji