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Anatomy of Game Development

CowboyRobot writes "ACM Queue has an article titled Game Development: Harder Than You Think that looks at the complexities of creating a modern game, in comparison with the relative simplicity of doing so ten years ago. My understanding of the industry is that they have too many designers and not enough programmers. From the article: 'Now the primary technical challenge is simply getting the code to work to produce an end result that bears some semblance to the desired functionality... There's such a wide variety of algorithms to know about, so much experience required to implement them in a useful way, and so much work overall that just needs to be done, that we have a perpetual shortage of qualified people in the industry.'"

385 comments

  1. Too many designers? by Motherfucking+Shit · · Score: 3, Funny
    My understanding of the industry is that they have too many designers and not enough programmers.
    Well, you sure would think the opposite if you take Slashdot's "Games" section as an example...
    --
    "BSD: Free as in speech. Linux: Free as in beer. Windows 10: Free as in herpes." --Man On Pink Corner in #52607549.
    1. Re:Too many designers? by hyphz · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Yea.

      It's the usual story. Companies demand experience on all posts, and then whine about lack of "qualified" applicants. While ignoring the fact that they themselves are creating a qualification that's impossible to get.

    2. Re:Too many designers? by edwdig · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, the problem with too many designers is simply that almost anyone that's ever played a game feels they could design their own great game. I'm sure you know at least a few people that played a few Mega Man games and then came up their own ideas for Mega Man bosses. Heck, the bosses in the last few NES Mega Man cames were all entries submitted into a design a boss contest.

      There are plenty of game programmers too. Look around at the console homebrew development websites. Plenty of programmers there.

      What's really lacking is artists. You generally need a huge amount of artwork for a given game, and you need talented artists for a game. Someone who simply knows how to use Photoshop filters won't cut it.

      The worst part of doing a homebrew game is finding people to do the art. Very few artists are willing to get involved in a project without money up front, and those that do are often hard to keep motivated enough to get things done.

    3. Re:Too many designers? by Naysayer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      (I wrote the article).

      I think in the game industry the situation is actually the opposite of this. Most game companies, despite having been in business for years, still underestimate the difficulty of the task (because it keeps getting harder every year) and hire people who are underqualified (often because they just can't get anyone else).

      Like, all the time I see job listings like "Lead programmer for massively multiplayer game, must have 3 years of C++ experience, must know Direct3D , Visual C++" and I just think "Wow, these guys don't have a chance -- if their stock was public I'd short it."

    4. Re:Too many designers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      From what I have seen it is a question of priorities. When hiring programmers, game companies seem to place a high emphasis on how into games the candidate is, and less emphasis on actual programming skills, knowledge of architectures, algorithms, engineering principles, etc.

    5. Re:Too many designers? by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Companies demand experience on all posts, and then whine about lack of "qualified" applicants. While ignoring the fact that they themselves are creating a qualification that's impossible to get.

      Or it could just be that many games programmers work stupidly long hours, particularly as stupidly close deadlines approach, while being expected to write code of a quality unseen in most of the programming industry because of the need to keep performance up and support the latest and greatest AI algorithms, without much of the fun and glamour they thought would come with the job because the production people get most of that, in exchange for financial compensation that barely beats what a Mickey Mouse business apps developer can pick up in his first job, assuming the company lasts long enough to get the game finished and published so there's any pay cheque at all. Nah, that's a silly idea...

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    6. Re:Too many designers? by patternjuggler · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What's really lacking is artists.

      With respect to open-source projects, that's certainly true.

      I think it's harder to collaborate on art- Software forces a certain degree of conformity, while in art freedom is absolute- there's a huge proliferation of different styles that wouldn't look good next to each other in the same game.

      Tools are partially to blame- they are prohibitively expensive and hard to master. There are some good open-source solutions: Gimp is okay for 2d stuff (please someone give it a docked interface rather than having to shuffle through dozens of independent windows...), though interface-wise I'd rather be using a copy of Deluxe Paint from ten years ago (and is there any paint program that allows you to assign one color and tool to the left button and another color and tool to the right button?). Wings 3D and Blender can do some good 3D stuff, but there's a lot missing for creating more complicated objects

      The other problem is that the open-source community spirit hasn't infiltrated the art community yet. It may take a few years- I see in a site like deviantArt indicating a future where sharing and collaboration are more the rule. Artists may be less susceptible to the gpl ideology, or simply lack leadership- who would be the RMS or Linus of free software-art? And what is the standard license for distribution- something from Creative Commons?

    7. Re:Too many designers? by God!+Awful+2 · · Score: 1


      It's the usual story. Companies demand experience on all posts, and then whine about lack of "qualified" applicants. While ignoring the fact that they themselves are creating a qualification that's impossible to get.

      The problem is that you have to write these things on a tight budget. Of course they whine about the lack of qualified applicants. The standards for hiring are higher everywhere in the software industry, but all the average and below average people who used to have jobs are still out there resume spamming.

      -a

    8. Re:Too many designers? by Grant_Watson · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Most game companies, despite having been in business for years, still underestimate the difficulty of the task...

      Isn't that pretty much the state of the whole software industry?

    9. Re:Too many designers? by coopaq · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Companies demand experience on all posts, and then whine about lack of "qualified" applicants.

      Actually everything I've read in the press and in B&N game books is that the industry can't keep it's top dogs, because they get burnt out.

      I would say not only that, but since EA just closed office(s) in Austin... of forget it. Game Publishers close offices all the time after a great game is shipped,etc and this article states there aren't enough programmers?!

      Well I personally know of a great programmer who left for the business world since it payed double what he was worth and the corporate bullshit stings pretty bad in game companies.

      Maybe that's what happens when real greedy CEOs and businessmen collide with very immature geeks and developers.

      The industry needs to reward better it's programming heros and keep them in the game.

    10. Re:Too many designers? by arose · · Score: 1
      Gimp is okay for 2d stuff (please someone give it a docked interface rather than having to shuffle through dozens of independent windows...)
      First you have to realize that that is not an apllication problem, but a window manager problem. So you need a good WM. Good. Now you can wait for the release of Gimp 2.0 with dockable dialogs, or grap a prerelease.
      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
    11. Re:Too many designers? by Kent+Recal · · Score: 1

      Dude, you're not seriously suggesting Ion as an appropiate window manager for fiddling with the gimp?

      I have used ion over the last couple months and it's a nice step towards an interesting direction. But it will definately not improve your gimp expirience. Don't just take my word for it, give it a shot - if you dare.

    12. Re:Too many designers? by arose · · Score: 1

      Give it a shot? I've been using Ion since last September. And yes did improve my gimp expirience. You know about kludges.lua right?

      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
    13. Re:Too many designers? by Kent+Recal · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, probably ion has improved a lot since last time I used it.
      I switched back to a more "traditional" wm two months ago because too many apps were causing trouble (basically everything except browser and [resize-patched] xterm) and real annoyances like un-movable galeon "find-dialogs" overlapping the page I'm searching through and such..

      I found it a pain to run the gimp in anything other than a floatws because resizing frames often left artefacts on the image and generally I found no way to line up all these popup windows in a sane way...

      Admittedly a seasoned gimper might actually find a way to get something out of ion - with a lot of kludges and work involved, tho.

      I didn't mean to bash ion as a whole, anyone looking for a "different wm" should definately give it a try. Was just a bit irritated to see it mentioned in context with the gimp (one of the apps that really challenge ion)...

    14. Re:Too many designers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      If you can't provide money to motivate someone, you have to provide something else, such as:

      1. Let their name be on it. Let their name come first. Let it be their vision. Let them do it the way they think it should be done. Let them get the credit, and I mean all the credit. Let them brag about what they did. Let the work be done in a way that gives them status among *their* peers, which is probably different from the way you would do it to have status among *your* peers. Let the success of project be a reflection of *their* foresight, vision, planning, execution and achievement.

      2. Not willing to share the spotlight? Cough up the bucks. If you insist on keeping the glory to yourself, then you face the same problem as anyone else in that position: how to find someone who will work for you instead of with you. The typical solution is to pay them, because why else would anyone work for your gratification instead of their own?

    15. Re:Too many designers? by arose · · Score: 2, Informative
      resizing frames often left artefacts on the image
      Yes, stable gimp has that. 1.3.* and 2.0pre* work fine.
      I found no way to line up all these popup windows in a sane way [..] with a lot of kludges and work involved, tho.
      Less than you might think. Here are my current gimp (2.0pre*) kludges and a screenshot to illustrate them:
      -- GIMP
      winprop {
      class = "Gimp-1.3",
      target = "gimp-tools",
      }

      winprop {
      class = "Gimp-1.3",
      role = "gimp-startup",
      target = "gimp-image",
      }

      winprop {
      class = "Gimp-1.3",
      role = "gimp-image-window",
      target = "gimp-image",
      }

      winprop {
      class = "Gimp-1.3",
      role = "gimp-message",
      target = "gimp-image",
      }

      winprop {
      class = "Gimp-1.3",
      role = "gimp-toolbox",
      target = "gimp-main",
      }

      winprop {
      class = "Gimp-1.3",
      role = "progress",
      target = "gimp-main",
      }
      -- /GIMP
      That takes care of most basic things, as the crop dialog in the screenshot. Some things I use less still require manual shuffling (most could be fixed with more kludges or a bigger screen), but much less than with Gnome/Metacity, which I used before Ion.
      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
    16. Re:Too many designers? by Kent+Recal · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the verbose reply.
      I'm still interested in how things go on with ion even though I'm not using it anymore.

      I don't think I'll try it again before they have added some kind of "learning"-mode that enables me to use it without editing lua-scripts daily. ;-)

    17. Re:Too many designers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I would say that the article is half right... I have seen the too many designers case, usually when EA was involved. Designers have too much power a lot of the time. At one point the front end programmer had 9 front ends on the go at once because the designer couldn't make up his mind. So Id agree with that...

      The other problem is we are in a young industry, one where a senior programmer only has 7 years (or less!) experiance. I would say the only "senior" people at the old school coders, who have been in this for over 12 years. But being a young industry has its limits - there simply aren't enough of these people around.

      However, I think some of the article exaggerated some of the tasks in modern games. For example many new nodes were added in 2004 games that were there back in 1996 as well. 3D Exporters, Animation tools AI... were all there. Things have just gotten more complex in construction, its not like its a totaly new field.

      Wild Metal Country by DMA Design, had an amazing physics system...(yes I know it was '99 it came out... but it had been in development for a long time...)

      Quake had 3D exporting and Animation, and it was in 95.

      The MMPG have introduced lots of new boxes to be sure, but its a slowly evolving thing rather than a whole heap of new things. Each single task can still be prefomed by a single coder if they know what they are doing. One gfx programmer, one AI, one physics. (These of course would all be subject to time constraints...)

    18. Re:Too many designers? by xpyr · · Score: 1

      No its the way most companies are setup to hiring people. They have a human resources department that is in charge of nothing else but hiring people. They aren't specialists in the field that they're told to hire people. They're just told basically what skills a person needs to be hired. Which is why some people never seem to get hired easily, because the ones who are put in charge of hiring them, don't know jack about the position that they are going to fill.

    19. Re:Too many designers? by JavaLord · · Score: 1

      I think in the game industry the situation is actually the opposite of this. Most game companies, despite having been in business for years, still underestimate the difficulty of the task (because it keeps getting harder every year) and hire people who are underqualified (often because they just can't get anyone else).

      So why don't game companies do something about it? Like open up a school, or offer internships or something?

      he time I see job listings like "Lead programmer for massively multiplayer game, must have 3 years of C++ experience, must know Direct3D , Visual C++" and I just think "Wow, these guys don't have a chance -- if their stock was public I'd short it."

      Funny, most of the ads I see are looking for someone with like 8-10 years Visual C++. I agree that there probably aren't very many people out there qualified to work as game programmers but at some point the industry has to make an attempt to offer a legit specialized education to them. Also, I almost never see entry level programming jobs for game companies.

      Why not take someone who has worked as a programmer for a few years in another industry and let them work as an entry level game programmer for a project or two and move up?

  2. Shocking... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Funny how more people have ideas for games than actually know how to write them...

    1. Re:Shocking... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No it's not. Children make up games to play with their friends all the time. Why is it difficult to make a system? Codifying it formally is where everyone runs into problems. Oh and that everyone loves to reinvent that wheel.

    2. Re:Shocking... by tc · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's also that there's a huge gulf between "having an idea for a game" and "being a game designer". Frankly, any idiot off the street can come up with a halfway decent idea for a game (it might not be terribly original, but it could probably turn into a reasonable game). The talent in game design lies in the thousand little decisions you have to make in turning the raw idea into an actual game. It's those little details that matter, and that separate a great game from an average game, and an average game from a bad game.

    3. Re:Shocking... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No it's not.

      Uhh... I think he was being sarcastic.

    4. Re:Shocking... by AndroidCat · · Score: 2, Funny
      Oh yeah, that was always a classic. "I have an idea for a game, you could write it and we could split it 50-50." (The "idea" was always at the "this guy on the screen and he does stuff" stage rather than a solid game design.)

      That guy with the funny shapes that fall down the screen, boy did we send him packing!

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    5. Re:Shocking... by frankthechicken · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I completely agree, there is also a hell of a lot of difference between having a great game 'idea' and having a great game 'idea' that is practical and fun.

      There are countless examples of games that are great in theory, but poor in practice(I'm looking at you Black & White). Yet relatively few that have no business in being so great(And here I'm looking directly at a certain Tetris), and somehow pull of all those intangibles such as playability.

      Even taking a great idea that 'will' be purely playable and making it so, is a great skill that only few can accomplish.

      It amazes me how certain designers can almost routinely pull off the impossible.

    6. Re:Shocking... by TheLoneDanger · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Besides this, many people have ideas that have already been thought of but weren't done because they just aren't feasible to do or don't add to the fun in any way.

      I think the problem isn't a lack of programmers, but that the design isn't focussed enough that the programmers aren't wasting their time on stuff that makes no difference to the gameplay. Some of this is attributable to the publisher who wants some new feature to advertise (realtime wart-growing!), or some overly ambitious designer that wants things that add nothing to the gaming experience (did MGS 2 really have ice cubes you could watch melt? If so, then WHY?).

      I really think that every designer should be made to play Super Mario 64 and Tetris. SM64 was huge, and Tetris was small, but both are very tightly focussed on the things that make the game FUN.

      --

      "But I trust in the people's capacity for reflection, rage and rebellion." -Oscar Olivera
    7. Re:Shocking... by scotch · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Nobody wants to see a couple ACs arguing like school girls. Log in or shut up, asshat.

      --
      XML causes global warming.
    8. Re:Shocking... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It isn't codifying it formally that's difficult, but modern games are some of the most difficult to get correct because they place a lot of unusual demands for the functionality.

      A game has to be robust, user-friendly, look good, work smoothly, give the player lots of degrees of freedom (which makes testing both important and hard) etc.

    9. Re:Shocking... by GimmeZeroZero · · Score: 1

      I'd have to disagree with you on B & W and Tetris. I enjoy B & W quite a lot. I think most people just had unreasonable expectations due to all the hype. On the other hand I've never actually found Tetris to be particularly enjoyable. I has always bored me senseless actually. But I'll take a good game of Civilization or Star Craft over those any day.

  3. As a programmer and game developer... by SisyphusShrugged · · Score: 5, Interesting

    As a programmer and game developer myself I have experienced first hand the level of complexity that game design and development has approached in recent times.

    It used to be, and back in the day when I started programming my first games, that a single "Lone Wolf" programmer (Like I have always been) could develop his own game.

    However, now with the crazily complex 3D games, there has to be a whole army of developers, artists, designers, programmers, etc. just to create a game.

    Unfortunately that damages lone wolf developers such as myself, in that we cant keep up with the demands of such a large production budget!

    Anyway, I have attempted to work as good as I can, see what you think of my game, it is a bit difficult to wear the hats of Programmer, Designer, Developer, Musician, and Artist!

    http://abaddon.igerard.com

    1. Re:As a programmer and game developer... by nzkoz · · Score: 4, Funny

      Just outsource your development to india. That way you can hire 35 guys at 2 bucks an hour and voila! Instant complex 3d games.

      You developers need to think more like managers.

      --
      Cheers Koz
    2. Re:As a programmer and game developer... by Anthony+Boyd · · Score: 5, Interesting
      I have attempted to work as good as I can, see what you think of my game, it is a bit difficult to wear the hats of Programmer, Designer, Developer, Musician, and Artist!

      Well, I just downloaded your game. One of the things I like about this is that I take your comments at a higher value seeing that you're actually "down in it" building games on your own. I think your kind of game could really appeal to a lot of people.

      First of all, as the article describes, the industry is really stretched by new 3D worlds that require huge investments of time, staff, and money. Getting back to the lone developer model of gaming, or even a 2 or 3 person development team, could be one solution. Also, if you visit Usenet groups like comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg, you'll find a lot of people who miss isometric games with smaller, tighter storylines. I personally would love to buy a few games like Baldur's Gate 1 & 2, but which had only maybe 20 hours of gameplay, instead of 60. Those games would be more "complete-able" by 30-something and 40-something parents (like me), and more "build-able" by developers like you. And we seem to be a bigger part of the market nowadays anyway.

      Garage Games is also catering to this market, at least in part. Smaller games, simple in scope, faster development & deployment, but great gameplay. I would encourage you to do more of this. I think the only difficulty is getting the word out, especially if you hope to charge money for the game. I don't know how you'd draw in traffic, except to say that Google's AdWords might be useful.

    3. Re:As a programmer and game developer... by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      It looks very well polished. Why did you do an RPG type game though? The amount of game design needed for that sort of thing must have consumed a substatial part of the total project.

    4. Re:As a programmer and game developer... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It worked for me man. Dude, your grammer, and speeling need work?

    5. Re:As a programmer and game developer... by wmspringer · · Score: 1

      I don't know how you'd draw in traffic, except to say that Google's AdWords might be useful.

      Maybe he could post about it on Slashdot?

    6. Re:As a programmer and game developer... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please make a Linux version? :)

    7. Re:As a programmer and game developer... by Deliveranc3 · · Score: 1

      Tried Game, is a Shinning Force Clone if you liked shinning force take a look. Gerrard dude you could use an editor, if you want me to edit your dialogue message me.

    8. Re:As a programmer and game developer... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you should learn to play nice with others and work in a team. aparently the team model is a superior one then the lone wolf one. I am realizing this in my engineering studies.

    9. Re:As a programmer and game developer... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      Yeah, but Indian programmers are not creative. This is not a knock on them, just an observation. They seem content to work for someone else but they are not overly interesting in making creative contributions on their own, particularly when it precludes them from receiving a regular paycheck.

      This is the inherent reason why the Indian software industry will never really challenge the Western (Japanese also) industries.

    10. Re:As a programmer and game developer... by DarthTaco · · Score: 3, Funny

      Tried Game, is a Shinning Force Clone if you liked shinning force take a look. Gerrard dude you could use an editor, if you want me to edit your dialogue message me.

      And that, my friends, is irony.

    11. Re:As a programmer and game developer... by 00420 · · Score: 0, Troll

      Well, I like your artwork. Unfortunately I do not have Windows though, so I cannot try your game.

      Regardless, I wish you luck.

    12. Re:As a programmer and game developer... by Sj0 · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Sir, I salute you. I'm an indie as well, and it's the single most thankless, grueling job I've ever had. Considering that I work in Customer Service, that's saying something.

      Good luck... ...and thanks, on behalf of every bastard who feels that you owe them a perfect video game because they downloaded the demo off your site. :)

      --
      It's been a long time.
    13. Re:As a programmer and game developer... by Sj0 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      you should learn to play nice with others and work in a team. aparently the team model is a superior one then the lone wolf one. I am realizing this in my engineering studies.

      You sound like an engineering student all right. For the future, real engineers actually analyze problems and give workable solutions. Managers give catchphrases like "you should learn to play nice with others" without apparantly any knowlege of the situation beyond a couple paragraphs of type.

      OK smart guy, do the entire indie development community around the world a favour and break this little conundrum: How do you get together a team of dedicated independants who are willing to work hard on a project for years on end? If you can figure this out, please let us know, because I've seen thousands of projects fall by the wayside not due to some internal dispute, but because most independants have lives, and simply can't afford to dedicate that kind of resources to a project for the periods of time needed to finish a production run. Most who do are newbies who will spend a couple hours working on this project before quitting, a week at most. People with experience work alone or with people who they happen to know in real life, or they fail. It's a simple fact of life, one which I've experienced myself in a couple projects I joined with in the past. Eventually all of them folded, because nobody could keep working while critical team members took months off the project to deal with real life matters.

      Sure, sometimes a team manages to keep together, as the recent release of "Diver Down", a great indie RPG, shows. The problem is that it often has far less to do with team management and more to do with the fact that people have real lives to deal with, and simply put, shit happens.

      The best advantage of the lone wolf model for indie developers is that a single dedicated person can make the game of his dreams, and keep on making it while teams fumble around and lose members like mad. Take me. I've been working on my lifes work, a great RPG, for three years. In that time, the entire community of developers I tend to hang out in has been completely transformed several times, great sites have risen and fallen, great projects have come and gone never to be heard from again, but I'm still chipping away at this, dedicating every waking moment to dreaming up refinements to my original designs, preparing to code great enhancements, or actually going into the engine and adding things. I guarantee you that the odds of me finding another developer as dedicated as myself to this particular project are about the same as me digging up a UFO in my back yard. I'm sure the parent is the same way. Take a look at how long abaddon has been in development. No team will keep working that long. Only a man with a vision can, and so he does. Regardless however, many indie games done with this model achieve steady progress throughout their development, slowly but surely, as a single person fights to complete it through force of sheer will.

      It's a beautiful thing.

      --
      It's been a long time.
    14. Re:As a programmer and game developer... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about the ass hat?

      I hope you get AIDS too.

      What do you guys think about the idea of a mock funeral for Michael Jackson?

    15. Re:As a programmer and game developer... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure he's running home to install Linux now. You sure showed him, Poindexter!

    16. Re:As a programmer and game developer... by 00420 · · Score: 1

      What are you talking about AC?

      I never recommended that he should install Linux. I simply stated I couldn't try his game because I don't have Windows. Maybe I have a Mac. Or maybe I run BSD, or HURD. Or maybe I'm just feeding the trolls.

    17. Re:As a programmer and game developer... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Speaking of design, maybe you should get rid of the Mystery Meat Navigation on your abaddon website.

    18. Re:As a programmer and game developer... by deppe · · Score: 1

      I also work as a programmer with a large game studio and the team is about 50 people. Of those, about 15 is dedicated to programming and scheduling for programming tasks. The rest are mainly content creators, i.e. 3d modellers, animators and sound artists.

      Everyone is still struggling with the project as a whole, but within your realm of expertise (in my case portability and core subsystems) you find fun challenges and new ways to think on a daily basis.

      When it works, it's just as fun as the solo trip but the project as a whole moves so much faster compared to what you could ever hope to produce by yourself.

      My company is in the fortunate position of owning and developing an in-house game engine and that's why we have all these programmers. It's also our ticket to producing original gameplay.

      My guess is that with more technology licensing we'll see a 90%/10% split of content/code in the future because there's a lot of money to save by just licensing an existing engine. Management likes to cut risks; even if it means sacrificing orginality. How many Quake/Unreal-based games have been successful over the last few years without any new engine code? Plenty! All you need is content.

      Maybe the guerilla developers will take over the day all large game studios all sit around and borrow each other's technology and produce nothing new. :-)

    19. Re:As a programmer and game developer... by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 3, Informative
      This is the inherent reason why the Indian software industry will never really challenge the Western (Japanese also) industries.

      Here's a link that might help make his post more clear to you.

    20. Re:As a programmer and game developer... by Triskele · · Score: 2, Informative
      Yeah, but Indian programmers are not creative

      What utter contemptible bollocks!

      We're working with an Indian games company to create a new console game and the team they've assembled is smart, inspired and better motiviated than most dev teams I've met in the West over the last few years. Remember these guys are doing something new in building the Indian games industry, they're not worn down by comparative low pay and dev studios going bust all around them

      See the announcement here

      Oh and the going rate is $10/hr not $2.

      --

      --
      USA: home of the world's largest terrorist training camp.

    21. Re:As a programmer and game developer... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      team they've assembled is smart, inspired and better motiviated ...at making RPGs and FPSs. Looking at the indiagames website, you can see that your programmers culture permits them to understand concepts a few thousand years old, e.g. run around and shoot or slash, or walk around and explore. I'd expect they'd be innovative at magic-centric games as well.

      Other concepts, such as sims, real time strategy games, etc. don't seem to be something you don't look to from a third worlder who's only recently "culturally" left rice fields for a PC. Even the developers just seem to lack the clean, intuitive application to a problem, ala Don Norman. Granted, plenty of western developers break these rules as well, but I'll guarantee you'll never sense such counterintuitive interface amusement as you do on a trip to India (where technology is often applied without an understanding of the design principles beneath it). And then there's the whole "designing reliability, consistency and redundancy" which I've yet to see anyone come close to mediocre outside the EU and US. When the elevators and escalators are permantly inoperable at the Caracas International Airport (and throughout offices in the city - and have been before Chavez), don't expect this culture to produce exceptional systems. Look to cultures like the Germans and northern Europeans for excellence here. Culture-based design, while terribly not politically correct and socially unpopular in the states, has real ramifications in system design.

      And before you're critical of this perspective, understand you can't rush several hundred years of painful democratic evolution and missteps. Aristide left on a plane today - do you expect Haiti will become a modern marvel overnight? (Instead you might question why they've been a nightmare for 200 years and take a close look at the intrenched mysticism and parasitism beliefs that poison their culture). India has some significant cultural baggage that it will have to work on over time before it can match many western approaches in thinking (and yes, they have elements to offer as well).

      Outsource the components to the culture that best fits; mismatch and you'll pay the consequence.

    22. Re:As a programmer and game developer... by Teckla · · Score: 1

      With all due respect (you're obviously extremely talented), your web site alone makes me question your design and artistic skills.

      The font you use is unbelievably small and difficult to read. Even magnified in Mozilla, it's too small to read comfortably. And your thumbnails are similarly uselessly tiny. I gave up on your web site and game entirely just due to those factors alone.

      I hope you pick better common sense defaults in your game!

      -Teckla

    23. Re:As a programmer and game developer... by 00420 · · Score: 2

      I didn't realize that complimenting somebody's artwork was considered trolling.

      So I apologize.

      I no longer wish the guy luck. Is that better?

      Mods: Stating you don't have Windows is NOT the same as telling somebody to switch operating systems!

    24. Re:As a programmer and game developer... by merlin_jim · · Score: 2, Funny

      I don't know how you'd draw in traffic, except to say that Google's AdWords might be useful.

      That and, you know, posting +5, Insightful comments on slashdot with a link to your site :)

      --
      I am disrespectful to dirt! Can you see that I am serious?!
    25. Re:As a programmer and game developer... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're a moron, aren't you?

  4. Outsource it! by in7ane · · Score: 4, Funny

    No, really...

    1. Re:Outsource it! by swimmar132 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Outsourced games.. ewww.

      You come across Wumpus!
      What you do?

      > Shoot Wumpus

      Wumpus die.

    2. Re:Outsource it! by pcraven · · Score: 1

      All your base belong to us!

    3. Re:Outsource it! by DrMrLordX · · Score: 1

      A winnar is you! You technical monkey!

    4. Re:Outsource it! by Daetrin · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Actually game developers are probably insulated more than many other industries from the dangers of outsourcing.

      Games are art, more specifically they are art of the same kind as books and movies in that they have a strong cultural bias. Paintings and music are also culturally baiased, but they're much more open to apprecation by members of other cultures. Video games, books and movies all tend to make assumptions about the backgrounds and experiences of the audience that are necessary to fully understand the work.

      Sure, EA could set up a team in India to develop games for a lot cheaper than a team in the US or Japan, but the resulting games probably wouldn't sell very well. Even games transfered between the US and Japan tend not to sell very well statistically speaking (and i say this as an american who likes Japanese RPGs, but i know i'm part of a small group.) Companies in one country have tried to design games that they thought would appeal to the other, and as often as not they have bombed. I believe Final Fantasy Mystic Quest was one such experiment.

      So in order for the game to have decent odds of selling well in the targeted area, the designers need to be from the targeted area or an area that has close cultural ties, such as US and the UK.

      Ok, so keep the designers in america, and ship everyone else off to India. There are probably people capable of doing the work in India, but you'll run into another problem. Designers frequently don't know what the hell they're doing. I appologize to any designers out there reading this, but all the ones i've worked with know it's true. The programmers will write some tool for the designers to use, and the designers will get lost and come to us for help. We'll tell them how to do that, and they'll be fine for a few days until they run into another problem. Sometimes the problem will be something they can deal with if they just learn the scripting lanague or whatever the issue is, sometimes it will be something new that we need to implement, and sometimes it will be something we told them to do or not to do weeks earlier. They'll do A and complain that the enemy does blah, and we'll tell them that they can't do A, they have to do B or C instead. Then they'll come back a week later saying if they do A, the enemy does blah. You'll explain again, and they'll say "Oh yeah, you told me that before didn't you?" Designers just seem to think differently than programmers, which is why designers are designers and programmer are programmers i suppose.

      So if you attempt to outsource the programmers, you're going to run into huge communication difficulties between them and the designers, both in terms of developing what the designers want and explaining to them what they're doing wrong. You'll have possible langauge barriers, time delays from emailing back and forth across multiple time zones, the difficulty of not being able to actually _show_ the other person what you're talking about, etc. The reason why companies frequently have onsite QA even when there's an offsite QA team is because often you can't figure out what the offsite QA team is talking about just based on the write-up they email you. You either need to fiddle around for it for a long time yourself, or have local QA spend the time reproducing it and then show you.

      There are similar issues between artists and programmers, and i imagine there are also issues like that between designers and artists. If you seperate any section from the others you're going to introduce masive delays and complications to the project.

      The only area that i've seen effectively outsourced is sound. However it's interesting to note that the only company i worked for which had it's own in house sound department was frequently cited for the quality of the sound effects in the reviews of the games. And this is just with outsourcing the sound to another american person or group, even within the same state.

      So yes, they could save money if they outsourced the labor to India, but if they only out-sou

      --
      This Space Intentionally Left Blank
    5. Re:Outsource it! by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yeah, that foreign grammer really sucks.

      If they outsourced, pretty soon you'd have characters in games saying stuff like "All your base are belong to us..." and "Make your time...."

      --
      The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
    6. Re:Outsource it! by sremick · · Score: 1

      Umm, no.

      "All your outsourced games are belong to us!" :(

    7. Re:Outsource it! by Mindcry · · Score: 1

      you could always outsource the engine work... unless you think thats culturally biased too ;)

      if you're into overdone deisgn docs, you could probably outsource the non-core design team, though I'd question moving the writing of dialog for a completely different country etc ;)

    8. Re:Outsource it! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Out of curiousity, does slashdot count as a game?

    9. Re:Outsource it! by Daetrin · · Score: 1
      you could always outsource the engine work... unless you think thats culturally biased too ;)

      That would fall under the rubric of outsourcing programmers. I don't know how companies that buy game engines handle it, either they have a contract with the original company to get some changes made, in which case you've got the same communication issues, or they have access to the source code as part of the agreement and have their own coders to make whatever changes they want, in which case they've reduced the number of programmers they need (possibly,) but certainly not eliminated them.

      Given that one of the companies i was thinking of applying to recently said they wanted programmers experienced with Lithtech (an engine sold by Monolith) to write game code, i'm guessing that it's the later approach.

      if you're into overdone deisgn docs, you could probably outsource the non-core design team, though I'd question moving the writing of dialog for a completely different country etc ;)

      Which parts are you saying should get outsourced? Like you said the game text shouldn't be outsourced, and clearly you don't want to outsource the basic game idea unless you're outsourcing everything. Outsourcing things affecting game play is a really bad idea. When i was working at an EA subsidiary that did RTSs, they had subcontracted to a company in England to do one of the games based on the franchise. When the game was getting close to ship date they were _still_ having serious trouble getting it balanced, so management decided to fly two or three of our best designers out there to fix it for them. They spent a week or two in England fixing all the problems. And note that these same people had been trying to help them from California through email for at least several weeks prior, but the difficulties in doing so were too severe for them to make much progress on the issue, hence the decision to fly them there where they could deal with things first hand and be more effective.

      So it seems that game play issues are something that companies prefer to spend extra money on to get good results, which makes me doubt they'll be a target of outsourcing.

      If there is some element of design that is so unimportant that it could be feasibly outsourced, i expect the company will consider just getting rid of it before they consider incuring the disadvantages of outsourcing.

      --
      This Space Intentionally Left Blank
  5. There is a saying for this in real life... by Ga_101 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Too many cooks spoil the broth.

    1. Re:There is a saying for this in real life... by StuWho · · Score: 1

      Many's a mickle makes a muckle

      --
      "If you think nobody cares if you're alive, try missing a couple of car payments." Earl Wilson
    2. Re:There is a saying for this in real life... by Ensign+Nemo · · Score: 1

      Damn, I'm way too tired. I read that as "Too many cocks spoil the broth." Dude, any cock would spoil the broth. Ewwwwww.

    3. Re:There is a saying for this in real life... by NanoGator · · Score: 1

      "Too many cooks spoil the broth. "

      Too few cooks is just as disasterous as too many.

      --
      "Derp de derp."
    4. Re:There is a saying for this in real life... by eatdave13 · · Score: 1

      Damn, I'm way too tired. I read that as "Damn, I love to stovepipe my mother," and I thought you were one sick bastard, and it was funny... But... that's not what you said... so... um... it isn't funny. Why am I sharing this again?

      --
      "Verbing weirds language." -- Calvin
    5. Re:There is a saying for this in real life... by Haeleth · · Score: 1

      I read that as "Too many cocks spoil the broth." Dude, any cock would spoil the broth. Ewwwwww.

      What's wrong with chicken broth?

  6. Kama Whoring with ad free versions by Frogbert · · Score: 5, Informative
    1. Re:Kama Whoring with ad free versions by randyest · · Score: 1

      At least you admit it. But hey, does anyone else find it slimy that these "printer-friendly" links you provided only include part of the article? I thought the idea of "printer friendly" was to bring up a complete article, sans ads and extraneous graphics, so you can print. Once. To get it all.

      How friendly is it to make me click seven pages one at a time, printing each, and having each one spill onto a fraction of the next when printed (depending on font size and marging, I suppose) so that I have to waste 10-11 sheets of paper and far too many clicks to get a 7-page article?

      I'll tell you: it's not friendly at all. It's really annoying, and even though my proxy strips the ads off of every page anyway, I will not be bothered to click "next" 6 times after reading just a few paragraphs. It's just so obviously whoring that I can't play along as if the article is anything other than a blatant ad-impression generator.

      --
      everything in moderation
    2. Re:Kama Whoring with ad free versions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Too bad those ad free versions STILL CONTAIN ADS!

      Kama is not a word.

    3. Re:Kama Whoring with ad free versions by Hobobo · · Score: 1

      #1. Those pages still contain ads
      #2. Don't you think it's immoral to view their content without viewing their ads? I realize they provide these pages themselves, but they're for printing. Otherwise, you should view the page with the ads to support free internet content.

    4. Re:Kama Whoring with ad free versions by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 0, Offtopic
      Kama is not a word.

      Actually, yes it is, just not in English.

      One appropriate context, given the whoring reference, would be "kama sutra", of course.

      Personally, I rather like the alternative; trying to shag one of these sounds like just desserts for posting that sort of crap here to me...

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    5. Re:Kama Whoring with ad free versions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, for fuck's sake, when was the last time you actually VIEWED an ad? People mentally block them. You show me anything in a banner-sized rectangle and I will not notice its existence. Web ads are worthless. Advertisers know this, which is why they arent paying anywhere near what they used to.

    6. Re:Kama Whoring with ad free versions by Rogerborg · · Score: 2, Funny

      Answers:

      #1. Don't you think it's immoral for you to have viewed those pages based on your argument in #2?

      #2. Don't you think this is a pointless argument because of what you said in #1?

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    7. Re:Kama Whoring with ad free versions by MegaFur · · Score: 1

      #2. Don't you think it's immoral to view their content without viewing their ads?

      No, I don't.
      I think killing and raping people is immoral. Viewing their pages without ads?
      That's just easier on the eyes is all.

      --
      Furry cows moo and decompress.
  7. Is it just my imagination by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Or is the author of this article really called Joe Blow?

    Nice pen name

    1. Re:Is it just my imagination by LinuxInDallas · · Score: 1

      His name is Johnathon Blow. Joe is of course short for Joseph. So yes, it was all in your (apparently oversized) imagination.

    2. Re:Is it just my imagination by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      His name is Johnathon Blow. Joe is of course short for Joseph. So yes, it was all in your (apparently oversized) imagination.

      That's Jonathan Blow. The names "Jonathan" and "John" are unrelated, other that their phonetic similarity that leads some Jonathans to go by the short form Jon. Jonathan descends from the Hebrew name Yehonatan (contracted to Yonatan) meaning "YAHWEH has given". "John" is the English form of the German Johannes, which was the Latin form of the Greek name Ioannes, itself derived Yochanan meaning "YAHWEH is gracious". Sorry for the bizarre name etymology rant-- my first name being "John" I get irritated when people think they're clever and call me "Jonathan". "Bill" is "William", "Bob" is "Robert", but "John" is not "Jonathan".

  8. He's wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The hard part is not the engineering. The hard part is the game design, story line, and content creation.
    So in a sense, the author is correct: game development is hard; but its about 10 times harder than he is making it out to be because he is focussing on the 'easy' bits.

    1. Re:He's wrong by tc · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The balance depends on the kind of game. The engineering is getting pretty tough, because games are becoming more complicated.

      Story lines, I don't think are that tricky, or important, at least for many game genres. To quote John Carmack: Story in games is like story in porn movies, you expect it to be there, but it's really not that important.

      Game design is hard, because that's the thousand little decisions you have to make that separate the great from the merely average. There's just no substitute for talent here.

      Content creation is hard, in the sense that you need an awful lot of it. And because there's a lot of content, then managing that content becomes a problem in itself - but that's basically an engineering problem. Artistic talent is certainly required in content creation, but ultimately this is not something that's become harder, just something that you need a lot more of.

    2. Re:He's wrong by gl4ss · · Score: 5, Informative

      the hard part is that too usually the designers don't seem to have been playing any games at all, ever! the biggest errors usually are all just about game design(and being designed to be something more than what the execution is able to grasp).

      imho what they should do is that they should bring in an outsider(always a different one!) in once a month to take a look at what they got going on and tell them bluntly if it doesn't make any sense or is stupid, frustrating or otherwise sucking(inside testers are too involved, and can't see if something 'just sucks' because they've seen it from the ground up or are afraid to say that it sucks). it often looks that the developers have gotten 'blind' from being too close to the project(and as such the end product ends up having some stupid shit that could have easily been fixed, like lacking keyboard configuration, having frustrating controls, bad camera view and so on).

      "not being able to see the forest because the trees are blocking the view"

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    3. Re:He's wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sadly it appears to me that (despite their genuinely good intentions) game designers are no more likely to come up with an enjoyable, compelling game design than anyone else. They seem to spend most of their time avoiding "faults" that have been noted in other games.

      I seriously suspect a bunch of kids would be better at coming up with a good game design than a professional game designer.

    4. Re:He's wrong by Mr.+Piddle · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "To quote John Carmack: Story in games is like story in porn movies, you expect it to be there, but it's really not that important."

      For Doom, sure, but in every other important genre, he's wrong. Too many games are like they are designed for teenagers who are flunking out of literature classes. The dialog, the characters, everything is just awful.

      --
      Vote in November. You won't regret it.
    5. Re:He's wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      The real hard part is maintaining a focus on the game as a whole the entire time. With games running several years of development, the original design document is drastically different than the game you end up pressing on a CD.

      It becomes EXTREMELY hard to balance the schedules and problems (there are always problems) from every field (programming, design, tools, art, sound) while keeping the focus of the game on what you originally planned. So much slips, and falls through the cracks. Ask most game developers, and we can prattle on for hours about all the cool ideas we originally had for the game, but ended up tossing out or having to dumb down, or really just skipped because of time or technology constraints (we'll put it in the sequel).

      Like the parent said, the actual guts of making the game (coding AI or collision, modelling and texturing the world, animating characters, blah blah blah) is basically easy, especially when you hire smart people who've done it before.

      My personal opinion being that the biggest hurdle is interdependancy. Artists can't make the best art without complete tools. Tools programmers can't make feature rich tools without knowing every capability of the engine. The designers can't code interesting scenarios or gameplay without a final scripting language. The programmers are usually all spread thin writing essential low-level stuff, by the time they get to polishing the stuff everyone's waiting on, the project is halfway over.

      A wise coworker of mine once told me, "The secret to game development is this: Every game actually gets made 6-8 months before release. Everything before then is either thrown out, or redone." And for the most part, he's been right. :)

      -another Anonymous lurking game developer

    6. Re:He's wrong by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      ANd thats why Carmack designs shitty games. Technically sound and graphically beautiful, but boring as hell.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    7. Re:He's wrong by Darkangael · · Score: 1

      "Story in games is like story in porn movies, you expect it to be there, but it's really not that important."

      Tell that to all the people who played all those final fantasy games. Story was what makes a single player game playable IMO.

      It's sad that this is the way the world is going; casting away the vital aspect of plot for a quick fix of andrenaline. They did it with games, they are doing it with movies most of the time, what next? At least we have lord of the rings (the movie not the game) to show there is something left, even if the story was written years ago.

    8. Re:He's wrong by SnowZero · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It depends on the kind of game. Carmack's games are like the 1990's "special effects" movies, which were driven more by technical achievements than a good plot. As time goes on, it gets much harder- either you have to come up with increasingly complex technical achievements (like Doom3 or HL2), or combine reasonably complex technical systems with a good plot and gameplay, which are hard to develop, integrate, and polish on tight schedules. Games really are following in the footsteps of movies. Here's also to hoping that independent games will still exist like independent movies...

    9. Re:He's wrong by xenocide2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Of course, its quite simple to go completely to the other side of this. Look at the "Best Last Adventure Game" or whatver you want to call it, aka The Longest Journey. Lots of exposition, lots of cutscenes, relatively little game. There's plenty of academics ready to analyze and critize games in the same manner in which movies and books are. Most don't really get it at all. For every Warren Spector we have 20 authors who recognize that the stories in games are held to a different and much lower standard than any real writing.

      From what I can tell, story and game are completely orthogonal. To make it more clear, imagine describing the quality of a game on a left to right scale or spectrum. The quality of the game's story can be placed on a scale up and down, with no relation whatsoever. Seems like far too many critics can't distinguish between the two. Why else would Xenosaga do so well with critics?

      Instead of writing about how story is critical, and how every game needs a story, and even has one (this leads to stretches like the plot of a football game), maybe these critics should spend some time examining if their ideas even work. There's a whole world out there of game design and its relation to story, but you're not going to find it by tacking on story to a game.

      --
      I Browse at +4 Flamebait

      Open Source Sysadmin

    10. Re:He's wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      For Doom, sure, but in every other important genre, he's wrong.

      ...and look what Half-Life made of the FPS. Single-player H-L remains one of the most immersive and satisfying stories you'll find in anywhere, drawing you into the adventure from the moment you launch the game.

    11. Re:He's wrong by Naysayer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As the author of this article I will throw a couple of cents in.

      Content development (game design, story creation, etc) is harder than it should be. But that's mainly because the tools aren't very good. Why aren't the tools very good? Because it was all your programmers could to to scrape the basic game together; they hardly had any energy left to do more than cruddy tools.

      I would have gone into this in detail, but the article was already over its length budget.

      That said, even though content development is hard, it's still easier than programming. You have to have done them both in order to understand. Programming is always like building a fragile house of cards; content development isn't. That's the difference.

      The hardest thing about content development in fact isn't making the content, but managing the content creation process; it's difficult for the producers and art leads to hold it all together.

    12. Re:He's wrong by tc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Bullshit. Story is important in pretty much one genre: RPGs. For everything else, it's only sometimes required, and rarely important.

      Is story important in RTS games?
      Is story important in puzzle games?
      When was the last time you gave a shit about story in a sports game?

      Games are not typically linear pieces of narrative, i.e. stories. Games are pieces of entertainment.

      Chess is the greatest turn-based strategy game ever devised. It has no story.

      Tetris is the greatest puzzle game of all time. It has no story.

    13. Re:He's wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like someone gets his ass kicked in Carmak's shooters to me.

    14. Re:He's wrong by Mr.+Piddle · · Score: 1

      Is story important in RTS games?

      Yes, but it is implied. The complexity of the aviation industry provides plenty of depth for flight simulators, for example.

      Is story important in puzzle games?

      Puzzle games tend to not have characters, either, except for Myst, for example, which has a fairly well-developed story.

      sports game

      Sports games fall into the same category as real-time simulations (in fact, that's exactly what sports games are).

      Games are not typically linear pieces of narrative, i.e. stories. Games are pieces of entertainment.

      This seems to say that entertainment is for those people with only a brain stem and no cerebrum. This type of entertainment tends to get really boring after a short while.

      Chess...Tetris

      Chess goes in with puzzles, too. So, we can split gaming into three categories: puzzles (i.e., time sinks and mind sinks), first-person shooters (i.e., kill and kill some more), and interactive novels (really good ones are still rare in the gaming realm).

      --
      Vote in November. You won't regret it.
    15. Re:He's wrong by NanoGator · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Bullshit. Story is important in pretty much one genre: RPGs. For everything else, it's only sometimes required, and rarely important."

      I think you're right, but I'm not sure how warranted this generalization is. The game itself is more dependent on whether it needs a story or not, the genre is a secondary consideration for it. Wing Commander pops into mind. I loved that game, but part of the fun of it was the story that went with it. Take the story out, the game's not as interesting despite that it doesn't affect the gameplay much. Take the game out and just leave the story, and it's stil just OK.

      Part of the problem with Carmack's comment here is that he's treating it like there's some big formula for making games. In a sense there is, afterall you are targeting a wide market. However, the reality of it is, that if you're expressing yourself artistically, then each aspect one can bring up is entirely up to the creator to make.

      Be careful about comments like this. They can stifle one's creativity if taken too seriously.

      --
      "Derp de derp."
    16. Re:He's wrong by tc · · Score: 1

      Yes, but it is implied. The complexity of the aviation industry provides plenty of depth for flight simulators, for example.
      I'm not sure where aviation history relates to Starcraft, say, but I'll go with you for a moment. Sure, there is a story to Starcraft, but when you're playing the game, especially online versus human opponents, is it important? Do you really care what it is? I would argue no.

      Puzzle games tend to not have characters, either,
      That would be my point. They're often totally abstract, but they're still games. Some of them are gaming classics. They don't require story.

      This seems to say that entertainment is for those people with only a brain stem and no cerebrum.
      No, it's to say that following through a linear narrative is only one tiny subset of the rich range of entertainment possibilities available to human beings. Games only overlap partially with that subset, and cover many other areas too.

      My point is that story is only important for a relatively small subset of games. For many other games it's there in the background, but not central to the success of the title. And for yet others it's not present at all.

    17. Re:He's wrong by Daetrin · · Score: 2, Interesting
      mho what they should do is that they should bring in an outsider(always a different one!) in once a month to take a look at what they got going on and tell them bluntly if it doesn't make any sense or is stupid, frustrating or otherwise sucking(inside testers are too involved, and can't see if something 'just sucks' because they've seen it from the ground up or are afraid to say that it sucks). it often looks that the developers have gotten 'blind' from being too close to the project(and as such the end product ends up having some stupid shit that could have easily been fixed, like lacking keyboard configuration, having frustrating controls, bad camera view and so on).

      I agree, that can be a very good thing, but only if you take what the outsider says with a grain of salt. The last game i worked on they decided in the last month or two that it was really lacking, so they brought in someone from another area of the company who hadn't dealt with the game before.

      He had a LOT of suggestions. Some of the suggestions were really good, and some of them sucked. However since he had been brought in to make suggestions we were under orders from on high to try to implement all of his ideas.

      Overall the game probably improved because of his input, but it would have been even better if we'd ignored half of what he said. He was especially worried about the dificulty of the game. He insisted that we add all kinds of changes to make the game easier and implement them at all difficulty levels. He was afraid that if we didn't some reviewer would start playing the game at the most difficult setting and think it was too hard and give it a bad review. The only thing he would let us change was the HP/damage ratios, so we bumped those up a lot for the most difficult level and hoped that would compensate. (Some of the reviews still complained about how easy the game was, so at best it was only a partial success)

      In one level there were turrets that were supposed to track the player which he didn't think were good enough. He suggested we should make changes A, B, C, and D, all of which were fairly reasonable. I worked on it and told him that we had A, B and C, and something that was similar to D, but not exactly what he wanted. (He wanted circles of light to follow the targeting lasers around whever they struck an object, and all the consoles are limited in how many lights they can calculate at one time. The best i could come up with in the time available was to have sparks shooting out of wherever the lasers hit.) His response was that if we couldn't have all four, we should just yank the turrets out. We did so, despite how much improved the new turrets were over the old ones, and it made that level way too simple afterwards, but we didn't have the time to rework it.

      It would have helped if we'd started the whole process of getting outside input earlier so that we weren't quite as rushed, but it wouldn't have fixed the whole problem. It can be difficult to try and fairly judge the suggestions of someone on something you've been working on for months and they've been playing for a few days or weeks, but it's better than accepting what they say on blind faith. _Everyone_ has some good ideas, some ideas that are good in theory but suck in practice, and some ideas that just suck. This ratio improves for professional developers (or so we like to think) but no one is ever compeltly free of dumb ideas.

      --
      This Space Intentionally Left Blank
    18. Re:He's wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, he generalized too much. Imagine that. Someone on the internet talking in black & white. ;-)
      But seriously, in the end it depends on the game and where the designers want to go with it. Daikatana could have been a good FPS with a story, but apparently they didn't quite do it right... That's not to say there will never be a FPS where story is unimportant. In fact, I believe an early 90's game that used the DOOM engine was partially an RPG. And the Fantasy Quake mod was quite popular (though it's story wasn't very fleshed out and could have used a little more work... but hey it was built for free by people in their spare time...)

    19. Re:He's wrong by oskillator · · Score: 4, Insightful
      For Doom, sure, but in every other important genre, he's wrong. Too many games are like they are designed for teenagers who are flunking out of literature classes. The dialog, the characters, everything is just awful.

      There's a huge difference between a bad story that's barely there and a bad story that's in-your-face. If you have a lot of dialogue-heavy cut-scenes, or especially a long cut-scene before the game even starts, then yes, the writing had better be good. If the story is a few lines of text before dumping you right back into the gameplay, it doesn't matter so much.

      Now that people are calling for story in all games, this is fairly independent of genre. I've played action games with an up-front story that destroyed an otherwise-decent game for me. Moral of the story: if you can't write, don't write. Or at least make the cut-scenes skippable, for christ's sake.

    20. Re:He's wrong by sremick · · Score: 1

      I disagree. I feel story is VERY important. Too many games are just rehashes of the same thing. You're driving/shooting/collecting objects and the only difference is the graphics.

      Some of my favorite games from the past stood out because the storyline drew me into the world of the game and wouldn't let go. For a period of time, I was in the game, caught up in the story. Wing Commander (especially WC3... 4 CDs, shit), The 7th Guest, Ultima... and going back further: Planetfall, Witness...

    21. Re:He's wrong by Hobobo · · Score: 1

      Why is this garbage +5 insightful? You disagreed with the article without making a case at all while the author of the article made a very good case.

    22. Re:He's wrong by adamruck · · Score: 1

      Or at least make the cut-scenes skippable, for christ's sake

      DING DING DING WINNER

      I hate games that dont let you skip cut scenes. Even worse if you playing a game that you die alot in.. and have to watch the cut scene EVERY TIME

      I dont care how good the story is... nobody wants to hear it 5 or 10 times in a row

      --
      Selling software wont make you money, selling a service will.
    23. Re:He's wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ask 100 gnomes, get 100 answers.

      >Is story important in RTS games?

      It is for me. Total Annihilation was only mildly interesting for me (and I worked in the building where it was made), but I loved TA:Kingdoms - because it had more of a story.

      >When was the last time you gave a shit about
      >story in a sports game?

      When was the last time I played a sports game. Um... never.

      >Games are not typically linear pieces of
      >narrative, i.e. stories.

      This narrowly-defined concept of story and narrative (i.e. linear) is part of the reason most storylines suck. Thankfully, there are people who are thinking beyond these narrow definitions, and colleges who are actually starting to teach non-linear storytelling in their gaming courses.

    24. Re:He's wrong by yutt · · Score: 1
      You're not much of a gamer, are you?

      "Is story important in RTS games?" Yes. Duh? What would Blizzard's RTSes be without a unique story? Lame Tolkien-esque, D&D knock-offs. Story is essential to any decent, single-player RTS.

      Adventure games without a story? Come on.

      You use ridiculous genres, puzzle games and sports games? No shit there isn't much of a story. That's like pointing out China and Soviet Russia, then claiming 90% of humanity is comprised of non-English speaking communists.

      Your example games make it even more evident how out-of-touch you are with modern gaming. Chess and Tetris? What the hell? Do you think they are the paramount of gaming? Are you 50? Why are you even reading Slashdot Games?

      There's this new thing called the "Super Nintendo" that just came out. You should try it dude.

    25. Re:He's wrong by nomadic · · Score: 1

      To quote John Carmack: Story in games is like story in porn movies, you expect it to be there, but it's really not that important.

      And that's why Id makes lousy games.

    26. Re:He's wrong by Prehensile+Interacti · · Score: 2, Interesting
      To quote John Carmack: Story in games is like story in porn movies, you expect it to be there, but it's really not that important.

      Fortunately video games is a large market. Outside of sports, ID is pretty much the market leader in story free games. To compete in that area, you need to be better than ID. Fortunately games players are all different (as the disagreement in this thread shows).

      Games with strong stories are playing in a different area of the market to the Quake's etc that ID puts out. A lot of people value a quality story in their games (e.g. Final Fantasy, or Zelda), and those games sell well to those people.

      In my experience, it is the 'hardcore gamer' who grew up with 8 bit machines, and the arcades, who values awsome game mechanics. A more casual gamer, does value the story that is told through the game. Quake is certainly not everyone's 'cup of tea'.

      I personally hope for a time, when the vast majority of all people's leisure time is spent interacting with one another, and I hope that games of the future will be where that is provided. The people who aren't playing games at the moment, are largely sitting on the couch watching TV, rotting their brains. I believe that to appeal to that mentality of consumer we need to start having more games, which do place the emphasis firmly on story, and less on whether you can jump at just the right pixel to make it through.

    27. Re:He's wrong by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      No, someone finds them not worth playing.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    28. Re:He's wrong by Prehensile+Interacti · · Score: 1
      The hardest thing about content development in fact isn't making the content, but managing the content creation process; it's difficult for the producers and art leads to hold it all together.

      Whilst all of the points made in the original article are very valid, and explain well why the task of making a game is a very hard endeavour. There is no mention of the commercial realities of making a video game.

      That is to say the frequent lack of understanding from the publisher of the development process. The amount of times, we have been feeling pretty good about the development of a title, when the publisher's producer comes in, and demands that the product is changed to add new features, or change the ones that are there. Usually at days or weeks notice of some deadline.

      Sure we appreciate that we lose time, and bang our heads against the wall for the points in the article, however added up, it is this reactionary interference which adds up to the greatest amount of wasted time on a project.

    29. Re:He's wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I remember playing a flight sim called Strike Commander. This sim had the unusual twist of having a story. That made it extremely playable (meaning that the last time I played this acient DOS game was last month). Every genre would benefit from a story. Funny you should mention puzzle games. Anyone remember playing alone in the dark? Part puzzle game, part action, part scary, all story.

      Maybe it's because sports games lack a story, that I usually don't give a damn about them...

    30. Re:He's wrong by arose · · Score: 1

      Two words: Interactive Fiction

      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
    31. Re:He's wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      You also have to remember that doom and quake are just technology demos. id is in the buisness of selling game engines, not games.

    32. Re:He's wrong by ztwilight · · Score: 1
      Programming is always like building a fragile house of cards.

      This is completely untrue. Well designed software written by experienced programmers with adequate time for the fundamental stages of development is solid. If you don't believe me, take a look at QNX (no, I'm not affiliated with it). Now there is a system which can run for years without needing a reboot. Modern day programming languages and diagnostic tools are becoming such that you will not be able to write software which crashes, even. Cocoa, Java and JavaScript are good examples.

      --
      Who moved my sig?
    33. Re:He's wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the hard part is that too usually the designers don't seem to have been playing any games at all, ever!

      OR they play too damned many. I worked on Command & Conquer: Renegade as an artist. Within a year of hire I grew to loathe and hate that project, because I knew that if it touched me, it would deep-six my career there, and possibly the whole company. I was unfortunately right on both counts; I made it four years and lasted until one day past its shipping date; the company bought the farm a year later. Most blame EA for its usual corporate assimilation practices, but I was there and apportion much of the blame on management for their lack of vision. Of three projects in the early stages when I was hired, only one shipped out before I did. All of them became cash sinkholes due to constant shifting in the basic concept of the game. Had each major concept shift been allowed to become a complete game, we'd have shipped about 12 products. We certainly did put in 12 products' worth of artist and coder (if not designer) effort. Renegade was the worst of these.

      What was wrong with it? Simple: too many designers -- er, "designers", not all of them fit the minimum spec for that title IMO -- and zero vision. The entire project suffered fundamental reconceptions about four times during its development, and as anyone involved with large-scale projects of any kind in any industry will tell you, retrofitting is EVIL!!!!

      Every time a new game hit the market and did really well, within a week or two of its release a copy would show up on the artists' desk, with instructions to study and emulate. This is not what you do when you know what you want to create!!!! When Max Payne showed up thusly despite a supposed hard line drawn in the sand "nothing new", three artists, one a lead, nearly bolted.

      The challenges of doing games nowadays is no doubt harder, but the major breakdown lies in proper project management and design, not in lack of talent.

      I suggest that those who seek to enter this industry examine closely the company's policy on overtime. That's the biggest indicator of how well the company runs projects. Those who openly specify mandatory overtime on salaried positions should be avoided like the plague, because it means that there is no negative feedback (like time-and-a-half OT pay) of any sort when the staff have to take up the slack of their bad managing practices. I WILL NOT EVER work for such companies. Ever.

      I've since gone into the film industry. They don't have these problems at all ;)

    34. Re:He's wrong by A+Merry+Finn · · Score: 1

      Perhaps this should be taken as "id software games are to games what porn movies are to movies", which is not so far from reality, is it?

    35. Re:He's wrong by Tyreth · · Score: 1

      I had an experience of that first hand with Haegemonia.

      Examples:
      1. You have a small squadron of ships to escort a slower vessel to a nearby star. A meteor is coming, you are told to destroy the meteor because it's on a collision course with what you've been asked to defend. The meteor is moving terribly slow...in all the vastness of space, this ship can't hit the brakes for 10 seconds to avoid a collision? Or do we have a ship-seeking meteor?
      2. You (as commander of a fleet) are being instructed by your science advisor on research. Your attitude is essentially, "What do I need research for? I kill things. Science is for nerds". So the science advisor explains kindly and patiently that science is not just test tubes and laboratories, but also helps improve ships and weapons. To which you respond. "Pfft. Science" in a skeptical tone. What kind of army recruits someone in a space age that doesn't understand the benefits of advanced technology?!?
      3. You fight an enemy, absolutely trounce his fleet with no challenge. The enemy officer responds after the battle, "You fought well." To which you respond "Yes, it was a tough but fair battle". Fair??? You annihilated the enemy without lifting an eyebrow.

      After these three events, right near the start of the game, I couldn't continue playing. It was too surreal to keep me interested.

    36. Re:He's wrong by tc · · Score: 1

      I think the Blizzard games are perfect examples of where the story doesn't matter much to the game itself. When I'm playing Starcraft or Warcraft III online (which I do frequently), I really could not give a flying fuck about the story (even if I could remember what the hell it is). I care about the fact that they're almost perfectly balanced strategy games, which require skill, tactics, planning and a quick hand on the mouse. They're hugely fun games, and the story doesn't matter a damn when I'm playing them.

      Your example games make it even more evident how out-of-touch you are with modern gaming. Chess and Tetris? What the hell? Do you think they are the paramount of gaming? Are you 50? Why are you even reading Slashdot Games?

      I assume this is a troll, but I'll bite anyway.

      I'm 29

      I've been making video games since 1992, and I'm still doing that today. I don't think I'm out of touch with the industry.

      Chess and Tetris are perfect examples of gaming classics. Just because they're old, doesn't mean they're great. I'm told that modern dramatists still regard that Shakespeare fellow quite highly, even though he's been dead for hundreds of years, because of the timeless quality of his work. Chess and Tetris, I would argue, are the equivalent of Hamlet or Macbeth to the gaming world. Appreciating the classics does not make one 'out of touch'.

    37. Re:He's wrong by tc · · Score: 1

      I think you have your video game history backwards.

      The first video games didn't have much story to speak of. And some of them are still considered classics today. Think of Defender, Pac-Man or Robotron. Looking further back in history, think of games in general, like Chess or Backgammon. No story there either.

      Games are games. They don't need story. Adding story can make a different kind of experience, and sometimes a compelling one, but let's not pretend that it's in any way required for a good game.

      And I don't think there's anything sad about that at all. What's sad is people trying to impose conventions from other media (like the need for story) onto a medium that doesn't always need it.

    38. Re:He's wrong by Darkangael · · Score: 1

      True I guess, the old classics were fun too. Thanks for reminding me of them. Guess I was just thinking of my current favourite games which have a lot of story. I always preferred a game that told a story to a game which was basically just a fragfest, at least in single player. Remember, though, that some of the first games were also adventure games like... well.... "Adventure". Text RPG's where there was little else but a story (of some description at least).

    39. Re:He's wrong by ynohoo · · Score: 1

      Hey if you think chess is a good game, you should check out Go (aka Baduk/Wei Chi) - excellent strategy, less ulcers ;)

    40. Re:He's wrong by JavaLord · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. Story is important in pretty much one genre: RPGs. For everything else, it's only sometimes required, and rarely important.

      Agreed somewhat, but a Story is one of the elements that can make a good game into a great game. Sure, some games nowadays (unreal tournament comes to mind) don't need much of a story. Consider some of these...

      Ninja Gaiden(NES)(Action)- a Classic sidescroller, which was made much better by the cut scenes and storylines which were great for it's time

      Street Fighter(Various)(Fighting)-All of the Street fighter games have various storylines involving the characters. The games don't need these at all, but they are pretty good.

      I could probably throw out a bunch more, but my point is you are right you don't need a story for a game. But it sure as hell helps. It's kind of like sound/music. If the music for a game isn't very good you kind of just ignore it, but when it's good it makes the game that much better.

  9. A dream far away from here... by KamuZ · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Yeah, games were easy to make ten years aog, i coded a few but it was a "code" challenge, now it's different, most of the time someone built a nice engine and everyone make content for it, that's why many studios just focus on design, don't get me wrong, design it's important but programmers don't qualify often for game industry unless you want to built something new, something that is not a goal for many companies.

    But hey! What do i know? I live in Mexico, there is a small or not-existant game industry at all!

    --
    No sig found.

    1. Re:A dream far away from here... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      RE: Small game industry in mexico.

      Check these guys out they might help.
      http://igda.org/mexico/

  10. OSS seems to help with this.. by Xzzy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    One thing I've noticed with a lot of open source game-directed projects is that they feed off each other as needed.

    You can take jim's physics library and link it into fred's ROAM engine, slap tommy's interface toolkit on top if it then shoehorn bob's network protocol in and actually get a usable piece of software out of it. The SDL libraries are one obvious example of this but it's far from the only place I've seen it.

    No it won't be the next jaw dropping engine that will command everyone's respect but that's not really the point, the point is as long as you have enough basic intelligence to learn an API and can manage to glue several of them together the open source world is plenty willing to fill in the gaps of your knowledge.

    It isn't really an open source specific thing, this mode of thinking can be found under windows as well, but for obvious reasons it seems to flourish best in the linux world. It's not mature area of development yet, but the foundations are there. As the barrier of entry into developing commercial games increases, so to do the free software options.

    I think it'll be neat to wait and see if open source can evolve to present a solution to the "kitchen sink" problems that current game development has to deal with.

    1. Re:OSS seems to help with this.. by foofoodog · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I guess it is hard to code a game engine but I get the impression that most of the maps and some of the total conversion mods are done by small teams and some end up being much better overall than the original.

      --
      Can I bum a sig?
    2. Re:OSS seems to help with this.. by sirsnork · · Score: 4, Interesting

      So game developers (the companies) are moaning that there isn't enough knowledge in the industry of all the ways to use every concept, fragment of code or method, and yet the easiest way to get people more knowledgable would be to open source all of the older games so others can learn from your past experiences.

      Older games may not teach a developer all the latest techniques but it would sure as hell let you be able to compare 3 or 4 similar implementations of a function and pick the best or even merge parts of 2 together to make it better still, I know some companies di this but there are more that don't.

      --

      Normal people worry me!
    3. Re:OSS seems to help with this.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Every technology you need to make the next jaw droping game is available in OSS. It's the craftmanship which most amature attempts fail on, but that's changing with the advent of open content.

      -ddn

    4. Re:OSS seems to help with this.. by Mr.+Piddle · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No it won't be the next jaw dropping engine that will command everyone's respect but that's not really the point, the point is as long as you have enough basic intelligence to learn an API and can manage to glue several of them together the open source world is plenty willing to fill in the gaps of your knowledge.

      This is one area where Java is way underrated. Just between the 2D and Midi APIs, there is a lot of gaming potential there. I haven't looked at Java3D, so I'm not sure about mega-real-time-worlds, but perhaps it could work there, too.

      --
      Vote in November. You won't regret it.
    5. Re:OSS seems to help with this.. by nzkoz · · Score: 3, Informative

      Javagaming.org lists lots of gaming resources. Including some 3d ones.

      It's definitely worth a look.

      --
      Cheers Koz
    6. Re:OSS seems to help with this.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I've done both C++ with Direct3D (using some game engines on top of that) and I've done some sim/visualisation work using Java3D.

      Java would be great for games (and is already great for mobile phone games) except for one thing.... pure and simple, no matter how you sugar-coat it or no matter how many different angles you look at it, it's just TOO SLOW.

      Sure, there's been great progress in terms of JIT-compilation, getting it to run faster, etc. I also know about all the benchmarks where they compare Java routines to their C++ equivalents and get near-identical speeds.

      In a production environment, with everything going on, it's still simply too slow. Java3Ds framerates are terrible compared to what you can achieve using C++. That's with hardware accelerated OpenGL.

      What Java needs on the desktop is simple: A REAL COMPILER. Something that supports most of the Java runtime functions but actually compiles the code into a static .EXE, just like your normal everyday C++ compiler. GCC can do this, but it dosen't support anywhere near as much of the API as we'd like (well, I might be wrong on this because it was a long time ago that I checked).

      For phones, Java is great and binary portability makes sense. For the desktop though, I really wonder and don't see the use of binary portability, especially in a gaming sense (unless you are executing distributed objects over multiple platforms, maybe in some kind of MMORPG game....)

    7. Re:OSS seems to help with this.. by ztwilight · · Score: 1
      So game developers (the companies) are moaning that there isn't enough knowledge in the industry of all the ways to use every concept, fragment of code or method, and yet the easiest way to get people more knowledgable would be to open source all of the older games so others can learn from your past experiences.

      Actually, a good deal of popular games have had their source opened to the public: Descent I and II, Tribes (go to garagegames.com), Marathon (resembles doom), and Abuse just to name a few.

      --
      Who moved my sig?
    8. Re:OSS seems to help with this.. by Tim+Browse · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I've heard this said a few times, but you have to bear one important thing in mind - which I'm sure a few mod creators who've transitioned into an actual paid job in the industry have found:

      When you write a game, most of the time, you don't get the finished tools at the start of the project. They're not finished, usually buggy, or maybe they're being started from scratch. They're usually incomplete for most of the project lifecycle.

      For example: if HL2 comes out (ever), then take a look at the tools they provide you with the SDK. I can pretty much guarantee you that the artists, designers and programmers didn't have those complete finished tools ready to use at the start of the project.

      Using unfinished tools, having to rework content/code all the time as the tools improve, takes a surprisingly large amount of time in a project. Or perhaps it's not surprising.

      When creating a mod, although some of them extend the game in ways the creators are surprised by, you're generally working in a fixed universe and feature set. Either the game can do X, or it can't. This cuts down your design decisions hugely, and you go down fewer dead ends.

      When working on a game project, anything is possible, because the game isn't finished yet. Can we add feature X? Sure we can, if we have the time and resources. Sorry designers, we're not sure if we'll be able to get that feature in - we'll let you know in about 3 months' time. Can you just carry on designing the game anyway?

      Like the man said, it's not as easy as it seems.

      Incidentally, could you give me an example of a total conversion mod that is much better overall than the original game?

    9. Re:OSS seems to help with this.. by Haeleth · · Score: 1

      For phones, Java is great and binary portability makes sense. For the desktop though, I really wonder and don't see the use of binary portability, especially in a gaming sense (unless you are executing distributed objects over multiple platforms, maybe in some kind of MMORPG game....)

      What, like Yohoho! Puzzle Pirates for example?

    10. Re:OSS seems to help with this.. by mr+breakfast · · Score: 1

      There are some pretty good open-source Java-OpenGL systems that are starting to be used for some very interesting gaming related stuff- take a look over on games.dev.java.net and the forums there for more information on what is being done now.

      Once you have 3d graphics being handled natively through the hardware, you don't have nearly the same problems with speed either- it is a plenty fast language when it's not doing too much screenwork.

  11. Flash to the rescue by hehman · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Flash is a bad word for some folks here, but it really excels as a platform for simple, addictive, and fun games that can be easily spread to the world.

    Working in a restricted environment like Flash eliminates a lot of the hassles described in the article. It's arguably easier to write, say, King's Quest now than it would have been 20 years ago,

    1. Re:Flash to the rescue by Mr.+Piddle · · Score: 1

      It's arguably easier to write, say, King's Quest now than it would have been 20 years ago,

      Yes, but King's Quest didn't require a 1GHz CPU and 100MB of RAM to run smoothly. Between Flash-based ads and those crappy chain e-mails from friends, my CPU is really getting tired.

      --
      Vote in November. You won't regret it.
    2. Re:Flash to the rescue by sineltor · · Score: 1

      True.

      Its also unarguably harder to write UT2004 in flash than it is in C/C++

      Some things may be nice and elegant but at 1280x1024 boring 2d vector graphics lag in flash. For commercial games (which is what the article was referring to) this just isn't an option.

      --
      'No publisher will ever pay you enough to successfully sue them' - Dave Sim
    3. Re:Flash to the rescue by Animats · · Score: 1
      It's quite common to do the 2D GUI of a game in Flash. That's how all those cool effects you see in game GUIs are often done. The authoring is usually done with Macromedia tools, but the player is usually one specifically designed for game use.

      Doing the game itself in Flash, though, is far too limiting. See Battleon for a reasonably elaborate Flash-based game.

    4. Re:Flash to the rescue by Prof.Phreak · · Score: 1

      You do know that many people don't install the flash plugin to avoid ANNOYING advertisements, right?

      Also it's not as easy to get it to work on Linux as one may think. (and why would anyone want to?)

      --

      "If anything can go wrong, it will." - Murphy

  12. Sure, it's complex if you're copying complexity by MooseByte · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Nice article, but I think it misses a key point. Game creation is only more complex these days if you're trying to build/copy a complex title.

    Of course a Lone Wolf isn't going to be able to knock out myHaloTribes2! But s/he sure as heck can still tackle a simpler game, with even less effort than "days of yore" in my opinion. OpenGL, a slew of commercial games engines, cross-platform solutions, even SDKs for mobile phones.

    The opportunities abound, even if the market is drowning in noise these days. The bottom line is don't try to compete with a big studio if you're not a big studio! Skip the $150K intro/cut-scene movies, etc. Don't aim for a MMORPG. Just build something fun, dammit!

    Think of it as the development equivalent of asymetrical warfare.

    1. Re:Sure, it's complex if you're copying complexity by Naysayer · · Score: 2, Informative

      (I wrote the article).

      I don't dispute this... it is definitely easier to write a simple game than it used to be. That was sort of beyond the scope of the article, though -- a different subject.

      There are independent developers right now who are targeting niche markets with simple games and doing okay at it (and some of them are doing great). But the game was focusing on the "high end" of game development -- if you go into a game store and buy something off the front shelf, what was required to make it today, versus 10 or 20 years ago.

    2. Re:Sure, it's complex if you're copying complexity by skifreak87 · · Score: 1

      I usually don't have the time or energy to devote huge blocks of time to most "popular" games. Generally, I will sit down and play a game for 10 minutes at a time, or play for 5 minutes in between questions on a Problem Set. Consequently, the games I play the most are games like Yahoo's text twist. Those games can still be very addicting and played for massive amounts of time but they also have that wonderful ability to be played in 5 minute blocks.

    3. Re:Sure, it's complex if you're copying complexity by geekster · · Score: 1

      Plus, with all the info on programming available on the net today and LGPL'ed engines free for use, things may not be that bad after all.
      Originality still counts, I hope. To hit the mainstream on the other hand... oh well, it's the same thing with music and movies.

  13. what the industry needs by urantia007 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    what needs to happen, is we need a complete game enviroment to creat games, not just a game engine, but a complete piece of software that doesn't need any programming at all. think of using maya to do all your 3d models and animations and worlds for the game, and instead of exporting these out to an engine you keep it all under one roof, give the models properties like colision, key bindings to play this animation when this key is pressed in this direction etc. Of course programming should be en extensible part of it to add funtionality that might not be in it. so essentially a 3d applicaiton with a game engine at it's heart containing everything you would need to make a game. This could be done right now with directX9. The single man band could be back if this happened.

    1. Re:what the industry needs by BigZaphod · · Score: 1

      While I don't have all these features implemented or anything, this is kind of what I'm going for in my JiggleScript project (which is very early development, of course). Check it out if you're into this sort of thing. :-)

    2. Re:what the industry needs by Pvt_Waldo · · Score: 3, Informative

      You're part way there if you go with Valve's Half-Life. Full SDK that allows you to create maps, models, etc. and a ton of public domain tools for sprites and textures. Also there are some neat extensions such as the Spirit of Half-Life mod which gives you a ton of nifty extensions.

      The main place you have to code to create the game is if you choose to extend the game entities for maps, do new weapons, etc. But since Valve gives you the source for the code that does their standard weapons, it's not unreasonable to take their code and extend it.

    3. Re:what the industry needs by Mr.+Piddle · · Score: 1

      a complete piece of software that doesn't need any programming at all

      Between Blender and Gimp, I think this is in our future.

      --
      Vote in November. You won't regret it.
    4. Re:what the industry needs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Lemme see, you want 3D modelling, animation control and editing, object interactivity and dynamics, an API for gaming logic and a simple but effective scripting language to tie it together. You didn't ask, but I'm guessing you'll also want some audio tools to go.
      I'll ignore the crack about DX9, because I know you really wanted a cross-platform tool that'll work with Linux, Mac, Windows, BSD and a bunch of others.

      So here you go sir, here's your tool

      http://www.blender3d.com/About/?sub=Features

      Now did you want fries with that?

    5. Re:what the industry needs by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      all the 'biggest' games seem to be built with such 'engines' anyways(quake/unreal style engines with their own scripting languages that can be used to make the engine run quite a different type of a 'game').

      the problem is of course that in order to have the latest whizbang on them you need to have somebody bringing the engine up-to-date or else the game will for most parts look like it's old.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    6. Re:what the industry needs by Spy+Hunter · · Score: 1

      There are already several of those that work exactly as you describe. The reality is that they just don't work well for games, because games always have some special requirements for features or optimizations that those kinds of "environments" don't provide. For example, you couldn't make Prince of Persia with one of those, because of the "rewind time" ability (unless that was already built-in, but I doubt it would be...). I doubt it would be possible to make a game with networked multiplayer with one of those, because decent networked multiplayer requires gazillions of special-purpose optimizations that depend on the requirements of the game itself. It would be extremely hard to design a plugin API powerful enough to allow you to add these kinds of things after-the-fact. Plus, the amount of effort involved in even writing the plugins for these kinds of things would probably put one-man operations out of the picture. Yes, one-man shops making games could still use these environments, but their games still wouldn't compare to big game houses.

      --
      main(c,r){for(r=32;r;) printf(++c>31?c=!r--,"\n":c<r?" ":~c&r?" `":" #");}
    7. Re:what the industry needs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Problem is, people have done this before, but, not surprisingly, it is hard to give the resulting games their own personality.

    8. Re:what the industry needs by protohiro1 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This is a pretty good idea. There've been products like that for flight/combat simulation for years. What you are talking about is almost a flash for 3d games. The hard part coding-wise is done for you. All you need is scripters and artists (and a good story and design). That could really open up game design to a lot more people.

      --
      Sig removed because it was obnoxious
    9. Re:what the industry needs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      what needs to happen, is we need a complete game enviroment to creat games, not just a game engine, but a complete piece of software that doesn't need any programming at all.

      That would give you one game, and a bunch of knock-offs that look a little different but act exactly the same. You need some type of scripting (ie, programming) to make the game feel at all different.

      Neverwinter Nights does this to some degree, but it looks like there may not be a perfect balance between control and ease of use. There's no way one engine is going to cover every genre of game anyway.

    10. Re:what the industry needs by MuValas · · Score: 1

      Everyone that gets near game development (or even thinks about it for a few minutes) comes up with this idea, and it has never been really feasible. At least for AAA titles. "Game Development Environments" have been around since at least the 80's, and while some game are created with them, the simple fact is that if you can make a game with a generic construction system, I can make a custom job that is a bit faster, a bit better looking, and a bit more fun, and then I win. Having said that, I encourage people to keep flinging themselves at that wall, it may crack someday and that would be tres cool. It's just not going to be me!

    11. Re:what the industry needs by Prof.Phreak · · Score: 1

      I think the future will be sorta like the one described in Snow Crash. There will be a `world wise' 3D environment (the `Internet' of the future), and everyone will just customize their own parts of it to do pretty much anything they want.

      Maybe.

      I think the major problem now is that effort is wasted from game to game. People create and recreate and recreate maps, etc., think of how much easier it would be if all games used a `standard' map format, where you could design a map and play it virtually forever with any new games.

      --

      "If anything can go wrong, it will." - Murphy

    12. Re:what the industry needs by patternjuggler · · Score: 1

      You're part way there if you go with Valve's Half-Life. Full SDK that allows you to create maps, models, etc. and a ton of public domain tools for sprites and textures.

      That'll be great to have a standalone SDK. I downloaded the Homeworld 2 SDK and it requires Maya, Photoshop, and Excel to get much anything out of. Open Office can probably handle the Excel part, but custom plugins were written for Maya and Photoshop so there's no way to mod a $50 game without hundreds or thousands(don't know what Maya goes for) of dollars of investment, so they've probably cut everyone out except the people who have warez versions.

    13. Re:what the industry needs by gid-goo · · Score: 1

      Listen my man, I think the dream is not going to happen for a long long time. You want a single tool to do 1) Character modelling 2) Texture development 3) Large scale level design 4) includes some engines of various types (I mean, you want to have the capability of doing outdoor levels, indoor levels, maybe mini-games of various flavors, space games) or one HIGHLY tuneable engine 5) scripting engine 6) AI development tools of some flavor 7) physics engine, etc. etc. Studios use multiple tools for a very good reason. There's nothing that will do everything you want.

    14. Re:what the industry needs by che.kai-jei · · Score: 1

      actually i thought maya was free to dload for home use at least under windows.

    15. Re:what the industry needs by patternjuggler · · Score: 1

      I don't care about a standalone tool to do everything, but with HL2 they'll give a standalone suite (that's the proposal at least) where there's specially licensed version and adapted versions of an otherwise very expensive tools and there's a few tools they developed in house.

    16. Re:what the industry needs by patternjuggler · · Score: 1
      I tried it out and it looked like a lot of the import/export/plugin functionality was disabled:

      Maya PLE faq: "Alias Studio Personal Learning Edition has a unique binary file format; scene files and models cannot be imported into the commercial versions of StudioTools or other CAD packages." and:
      1.9 Will Alias offer a file conversion service to convert Alias Studio Personal Learning Edition files into regular Studio files once the user has purchased a commercial version of StudioTools?
      No, the Alias Studio Personal Learning Edition is specifically intended as a non-commercial learning tool.


      I haven't tried it with HW2, but I'm kind of guessing since the Relic guess didn't use the PLE to do HW2 they didn't design around it's limiations- however, a quick google brings up this from relicnews:


      2. What's the primary tool being used in the development of HW2? Will it be required to create a mod?

      The primary tool being used in development of HW2 is Maya 3.0, and the assorted custom tools that we've written for it. Yes, Maya will be required to create mods. However, we realize that a lot of people may not have access to Maya and we are currently trying to work with Alias to release our Maya tools for Maya PLE (Personal Learning Edition).
    17. Re:what the industry needs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the impression that it's necessary to use a custom written engine for AAA titles is a result of a combination of factors.

      The history of game development being very much 'reinvent the wheel every time' which has created something of a vicious circle - reuse is minimal so developers don't try to design something that will last more than one product cycle, which becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy because the lack of good design makes the product unusable for anything else.

      Game developers often do not have the time, inclination, training or experience to create well engineered, flexible yet fast middleware. Sorry if I offend anyone, but my experience is that game developers write some of the worst designed code I've seen, because the focus is often way too narrow. Perfectly understadable in the unforgiving crucible that is game development today, but this is one factor that creates a level of expectation that game products are somehow exempt from good design practice, which is why they're almost never reusable.

      The belief that "you can't make it fast and reusable at the same time" is fundamentally flawed IMHO; the days of assembler optimisation of every line of code are long gone, and so should this kind of argument. High-level optimisation is where it's at, and guess what - good design practice can help you optimise AND make your code reusable.

      Unfortunately much of game development practice comes from academia where demonstrating the latest cool algorithm is given much more weight than solid design. I think it's changing, but until we arrive at a more balanced plateau where solid engineering is given equal weight to 'cool hacky stuff', the industry is going to continue to burn through scary amounts of money reinventing the wheel just so they can add a new piece of icing on the top (and yes, I like mixed metaphors ;).

  14. Can see where he's coming from... by Phil+John · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...have any of you seen the demo video of the upcoming Half-life 2 (or even *gasp* downloaded a leaked beta), I was watching in amazement wondering how games had come so far in such a little time.

    Let me elaborate, splinter cell was an amazing game but the storyline was very linear and interacting with the environment pretty much restricted to shooting out lights.

    Halflife 2 on the other hand allows you to use some magnetic levitating weapon that can tear metal objects like radiators from the wall and hurl them at the opposition. Boxes and furniture pushed against doors to stop attacking enemies.

    I can't even begin to imagine the complexity that has not only gone into the code design but also the level design. That's the crux of it, without amazing and clever levels that leverage all of this new complexity a game falls flat on its face.

    --
    I am NaN
    1. Re:Can see where he's coming from... by c_oflynn · · Score: 1

      Don't worry - by the time it comes out it will probably be equivilent to every other game...

    2. Re:Can see where he's coming from... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't even begin to imagine the complexity that has not only gone into the code design but also the level design.

      As cool as the physics are in those demo videos, you have to
      remember that they're demonstrations of what
      can be done.

      Tearing a radiator off the wall is cool, yes, but the trouble
      is that you'll be seeing that same radiator all throughout
      the game. There will be maybe ten objects like this, but
      in the end, you'll just keep seeing these same ten objects.

      It's just like the exploding barrels in doom, to the nth degree.

    3. Re:Can see where he's coming from... by danila · · Score: 1

      A very good point, AC. To be more precise, this is more like boxes and planks in Max Payne and the like. Or even furniture in some really ancient games, probably even HL1. The world is still rock solid, but now it has some interactive insets. We had lamps, displays, windows, that could be destroyed for a long time. Then programmers added chairs and boxes that you could move. Now Valve is using the same ideas in HL2. I admit, they are doing it quite well (in demo levels), but Max Payne 2 already did it in fall 2003. Yes, a year ago it was novel and innovative, but it no longer is. Especially since HL2 uses Havoc engine for its physics...

      If we are talking about destructibe levels, it's Worms 3D all the way. :) Yes, it is basically voxel-based levels, but it's done really well. There is also Silent Storm TBS with non-real-time (but much more accurate) destructible levels.

      It should be possible to slap something like this onto an FPS. Call it Stalingrad and allow non-deterministic destruction of the persistent level as the game progresses. This gimmick alone would sell enough copies to make it worthwhile.

      --
      Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
  15. Design Patterns? by BenjyD · · Score: 4, Informative

    Many games take half an hour or longer to compile when starting from scratch, or when a major C++ header file is changed.

    Come on, Design Patterns is only $50. Surely they can afford a copy or two? Shouldn't the public interfaces to external classes for a module be fixed pretty early on, if not at design time?

    1. Re:Design Patterns? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Shouldn't the public interfaces to external classes for a module be fixed pretty early on, if not at design time?

      I don't think you understand software development very well. It's not a linear process: design...build...ship. On anything but the smallest project, it's impossible to completely specify the interfaces early on. As code is written, new requirements will inevitably emerge, necessitating interface changes. Also, note that in C++, private variables are part of the class definition that resides in the header file. So even a change to a non-public part of a class could kick of a wave of (unnecessary) recompiles.

    2. Re:Design Patterns? by CdnZero · · Score: 1

      Oh but it isn't quite that easy or obvious. Remember that using OOP and/or Design Patterns both impose performance penalties.

      Modern games attempt to wring the greatest number of fps using even assembler at times to increase code performance. You are right that for all but the 3D, shoot em up, multiplayer madness a lot would change with better OOP/Patterns. But like most blanket statments, it won't help everyone.

    3. Re:Design Patterns? by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      If you've ever developed a code base with a couple hundred thousand or million lines of code, you'd know that it never works out quite cleanly. You end up needing to add parameters to functions, or change their types, or add new functions to meet problems in the middle.

      What thhey should have is a build system that allows them to compile only part of the code at a time, and link it against the previous compilation of the rest of the codebase. This is what I have at work- the entire codebase takes several hours to compile, but a single module can be compileld at a time, inn anywhere from 1-5 minutes, with another 2 or so to link.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    4. Re:Design Patterns? by BenjyD · · Score: 1

      So even a change to a non-public part of a class could kick of a wave of (unnecessary) recompiles.

      That's why you use interface classes and derive implementation classes from them. Change the implementation class and nothing that calls it needs to be recompiled - all they see is the interface class. For most things apart from really tight loops, which will probably be hidden inside the rendering classes anyway, virtual function calls aren't too much overhead.

    5. Re:Design Patterns? by edwdig · · Score: 1

      The comment was on compile time when a major header is changed. Things like if someone at Microsoft needs to make a change to windows.h, that's going to cause everyone to have to do a lot of recompiling. You can't avoid that.

    6. Re:Design Patterns? by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      Hey, I basically agreed with that. Although you can avoid things like windows.h, which is a huge clusterfuck. Make multiple header files, each dealing with a specific area of the code, instead of one giant mega-file.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    7. Re:Design Patterns? by VultureMN · · Score: 2, Informative

      For C++, you gotta recompile even if the interface doesn't change. Since a lot of compile-time linking is done (as opposed to all-run-time linking in Java) any changes to classes require recompilation/relinking. Or else all the offsets are wrong and KABLAMMOSegmentation Fault

    8. Re:Design Patterns? by Naysayer · · Score: 5, Interesting

      (I wrote the article).

      The problem is that games are just too big and cutting-edge for this kind of design approach to work. You can only do this for relatively simple problems that you completely understand. Games are the opposite of that. They have to be designed incrementally -- if you just sat down and tried to make a bunch of headers, without building the implementations, you would eventually find that your interfaces were completely wrong.

      Interface classes can help a little, but only a little. The problem isn't so much having private data in a header file (though that is a problem) so much as the sheer interconnectedness of the dependencies in a project like this. That's the point of those diagrams on the first page of the article. Look at the one for a Massively Multiplayer Game and then think about what the header structure for that is like (considering that each box is not a file, but a cluster of files).

    9. Re:Design Patterns? by Chester+K · · Score: 1, Funny

      Games are the opposite of that. They have to be designed incrementally

      Only bad games are designed incrementally.

      Good games start with a very comprehensive design document.

      --

      NO CARRIER
    10. Re:Design Patterns? by gid-goo · · Score: 1

      I disagree. I work on games for the PS2. There is a deeply entrenched "the way it's always been done" attitude in game development and a fear of trying different things (which is not entirely unfounded). That is the real reason why OOP and Design Pattern style developments are not larger players. When you have 80 gazillion features, half of which will be developed 2 or 3 years down the road, no one knows how they're going to work or if they're going to work and someone has read a book about design patterns but everyone else knows how to hack out a game, you go with what you know, the game gets hacked out.

    11. Re:Design Patterns? by Pete · · Score: 1

      Where's the "Score: 5, Ludicrously Funny" when you need it?

      It might have been even more effective with a s/games/software/g , though.

      Sigh. *roll of eyes*

      Pete.
    12. Re:Design Patterns? by Chester+K · · Score: 1

      Where's the "Score: 5, Ludicrously Funny" when you need it?

      I've never produced a title that wasn't designed out in sufficient detail beforehand enough to use proper planning on the project.

      That's not to say that the design doc doesn't undergo revision during development (as little as I can help it); but I would never accept a project that was being created so seat-of-the-pants that there wasn't enough of a high level design for the developers to adequately structure their code. That's just a recipe for disaster.

      --

      NO CARRIER
    13. Re:Design Patterns? by Sax+Maniac · · Score: 1
      True, you can't know it all up front.

      However, if you read your Lakos, you can vastly reduce the coupling with some fairly simple techniques. He calls this insulation, which is a physical encapsulation that the parts can vary indepedently without rebuilds. (Logical encapsulation is great, but it doesn't go all the way: you still have to recompile every user of a class when a private member changes.)

      It's pretty straightforward, just time consuming, to refactor software so that it's coupling is far less. Like all real refactoring, you're not changing the meanig of any code, just applying mechanical transformations to so that it's more flexible.

      Of course, not everything can be perfectly insulated from everything else. But my experience is when you don't pay attention to insulation, you wind up with a whole lot of unnecessary dependencies. These either 1) do nothing but make recompiles longer or 2) actively hurt when someone unwittingly turns it into a real dependency later, increasing the complexity of the system as a whole.

      --
      I can explanate how to administrate your network. You must configurate and segmentate it, so it can computate.
    14. Re:Design Patterns? by Tim+Browse · · Score: 2, Insightful
      The problem is that games are just too big and cutting-edge for this kind of design approach to work. You can only do this for relatively simple problems that you completely understand.

      Hmmm...I liked the article, but I don't think I'm going to let you get away with that. I found the "build times are really long!" part of the article the most troubling. Here are some observations, which I'm not suggesting you're completely unaware of, it's just a convenient place for me to impart information that people don't know. Before anyone flames me, yes, they should know, but they don't. That's not my fault.

      First of all, stop having a go at Microsoft's tools. You try using the PS2 dev tools for a while, and you will ache to go back to the MS tools - incremental compilation and linking, decent debugger, etc. I know you weren't really moaning (and maybe you have used PS2 tools - my sympathy), but if you're using VC6 or higher, then I don't think tool quality is going to be a major problem. Enough said.

      Most big C++ projects have long build times because everyone bitches about them but nobody tries to do anything about it. I think this is often down to programmers not really understanding how compilers/linkers work, or actually being any good at performance tuning.

      Job #1 when solving slow build times is really easy - all you need is some money - and not much. It's real easy - buy some more RAM. If your developers don't have at least 1Gb of RAM in their PCs, then there's probably something wrong. The good news is, it's easy to fix (buy some RAM), and RAM is so cheap that it'll pay for itself in improved productivity in a couple of weeks in extreme cases (I've experienced that first hand myself).

      Yes, yes, code bloat, I remember when all you got was 16k, blah blah, "7167 bytes free", Windows sucks, etc., etc. - yes, very nice, but the fact is that buying a dev $50 worth of RAM usually saves them shedloads of time, so suck it up and do it.

      After the easy stuff, here's some more easy stuff. When it comes to C++, there are trivial things you can do wrong (and often) to make your build times balloon. The single most important question to ask in C++ with respect to build times is: do I need to include that file, or can I use a forward declaration?

      If no thought goes into choosing which files to include, then you don't really notice it that much on smaller projects, but on larger projects it kills your productivity (due to large build times). A few months back, I spent a couple of days pruning include directives from our project's source files. In only two cases did I actually change any implementation (on both cases, to use the pimpl idiom on a couple of choke point classes). It took me about 2 days and was hell, but at the end of it our build times were half what they used to be.

      On other projects where the tools support pre-compiled headers ("Luxury!"), I've reduced build times by a factor of 4-6.

      The effects are two-fold - first, each source file takes less time to compile, because it isn't including the whole bloody project, and secondly, less files get recompiled when you change stuff. Again, obvious, I know, but you'd think it wasn't, judging by the lack of effort most people put into fixing this. This addresses the "I just changed the animation file format, so why the hell is the physics system being rebuilt?" problem.

      In short, more people need to read Large Scale C++ Design by John Lakos.

      As for not being able to use design patterns, etc, in something as complicated as a game, that's a bit of a cop out, as I suspect you know. If you don't plan and manage your design rigourously, then your development time will usually be longer, due to bugs in the design and code. Essentially you're saying "Games are too complicated to be designed". Put like that, it doesn't sound that defensible (but: possible Straw Man alert

    15. Re:Design Patterns? by Naysayer · · Score: 1

      Certainly, I know all about forward declarations and being careful about who includes what. My own codebase actually does a full recompile in 15 seconds on Visual Studio 6. But it requires a *lot* of discipline to maintain that, a lot more than it would in e.g. a business programming project, because of the extreme interdependency.

      And the article was about the state of the industry, not what me or a couple of other people have managed to do re: build times. I've been on projects that had been going for a year, and stepped in to try and fix their build times, and it's *hard* at that point because everything is so calcified. It can still be done but it requires huge engineering effort.

      My experience is that yes, there are some development houses that can't be bothered with good design, or whose idea of good design is totally out of whack. But then there are places that are not like that. And they still have problems with their build. It's just because game development involves such a crushingly huge amount of work that they really feel pressure to get visible results done. (Perhaps rightly so, because without those, how do you know you are proceeding toward the goal?) The importance of nitpicking your header files gets downplayed, if they ever believed it in the first place. And then you're rolling down that slope.

      But it's a good deal that you saw optimizing the build as an important task. We need a lot more teams like that, that's for sure. Certainly there are schools of thought that that isn't important at all. (Ever try using the Unreal engine?)

      And yeah, I won't argue that the PS2 tools suck. That doesn't mean, though, that less sucky tools aren't bad.

  16. new technology, designers, engineers... by nuckin+futs · · Score: 5, Funny

    and the most popular game on the PC is still solitaire!
    :-P

    1. Re:new technology, designers, engineers... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      MINESWEEPER FOREVER!!!

    2. Re:new technology, designers, engineers... by WorkEmail · · Score: 1

      That's not true, I hear Minesweeper is cathing up. lol. What ever happened to the skiing game from Windows 3.1 Ha Ha HA

    3. Re:new technology, designers, engineers... by Keybounce · · Score: 0

      Sure. Freecell and 2 suit Spider both have the important factors: Playable, easy to learn, winnable, but neither too easy and boring, nor too hard and impossible. You've got an acheavable goal, and a reasonable (5-20 minutes) timeframe.

      What have been some of my major favorites over the years?

      Magic: The Gathering. Over a 10-30 minute time frame, you could play a duel, and win or not. At the toughest difficulty level, wins were not 100%, heck I suspect 50% overall, but still enough that you could gain and improve. You had a difficult time in assaulting the dungeons and castles, and that required being able to set aside 3-4 hours without having to reboot (difficult, on windows :-), and you'd need to make major deck improvements first, but it was doable.

      Yes, you had additional challenges -- the deck you'd want to take into the mountain areas (big red monsters) wasn't the same you'd use in, say, black or green, so you'd have deck adjustments. [Side note: The only time I had a "one deck works everywhere" was a green/white denial deck. COP green and red, designed for delaying the game, massive life growth (essential in the dungeons), and run them out of cards.]

      What else is a good game? XCom. 20-45 minutes to prepare for a battle. Then, at another time, 20-45 minutes to fight that battle. Later, 20-45 minutes of headquarters time until the next ship to fight shows up.

      What else? 1830. Nethack. A lot of "-craft" games (Dune 2, Super Dune 2, Warcraft (1 and 2), Impossible creatures (beta), etc. As much as I *WANTED* to love dungeon craft, err, Dungeon Master, it STANK, at least partially because it was released as a -craft game.)

      Heroes of Might and Magic? Yes, but those levels were too long to finish in one sitting. After a while, they stared to look alike -- I never got past the 4th of the 8 levels.

      The bottom line? Games that you can acheive something useful in a relatively short setting (10-60 minutes), with an ongoing reason to come back.

      Compare that to the games that have been on my back burner for too long:

      NOLF -- I've played 2 or 3 levels. The current level I started so badly (protect the stupid senator) that I'm going to have to restart that level. The "Oh no, I've got to go through that all over again?" factor keeps me from playing the rest, even though my friend who gave me his copy tells me that the story alone is worth playing for.

      Half Life and System Shock 2 -- Again, I'm told that they are very enjoyable, with a story that makes them worthwhile. But they are BIG. Maybe when I have time for such long games ...

      Titans of Steel 1.4: I'm a big fan of Mechforce/Amiga. Yes, I know that this is a "remake" for the PC. But aside from playing a quick game with random teams, if I'm going to play a campaign, I've got a lot of startup work. What is the recycle time of this weapon? How much damage does it do? What is the damage per time? What is the heat done to you? Damamge per hear? How much coolant do you need? Etc. Designing the mechs is a major factor. Just use stock mechs? Well, you've got to examine the 60 or so starting mechs, decide if you want a team of 3 larger, or 5 smaller, or 4 mixed.

      The point? There's a huge startup expenditure of time studying the game specs before you can begin playing seriously. And, when I did finally examine the damage/cool factor of the weapons, I found that napalm missiles were far and away the best weapon, but none of the stock mechs were designed around a 3 napalm launcher design (I was able to make a larger starting mech that had it).

      And what about the games where I was never able to get past a certain point? Starcraft, protoss 7, where the enemy has a major tech advantage? Heck, even War1's "bugged human" level didn't stop me -- I could complete that level without building my town at all.

      The point of this?
      1. Keep the time frame focused. IF you require the players to put in several hours of time at a time, then sure, you'll sell

  17. Full Sail! by Zoko+Siman · · Score: 5, Informative

    Here in florida we have a college, Full Sail, it specializez in entertainment industry stuff. Such as: game design and devolpment. It's good to know we have a place that specializes in making the people that are required if world of gaming is to be continued.

    1. Re:Full Sail! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Full Sail seems to have a pretty nasty reputation. I'd have said people would be better off with a normal degree and some mod experience.

      Of course, I can't get a games job, so feel free to ignore me...

    2. Re:Full Sail! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ditto: Full Sail is a profit driven diploma farm.

    3. Re:Full Sail! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've found that people who teach "games programming", or people who learn to program so they can make games, care less about the code and more about short-term end results.

      In other words, a lot of people who want to make games are gamers first, programmers second. As a result, the quality of the code is neglected, and you end up with a lot of ugly stuff.

      Just an observation.

      So. A college in Florida who specializes in "the entertainment industry" is probably not the best place to learn your programming skills.

    4. Re:Full Sail! by Lord_Dweomer · · Score: 1
      Not only does this sound like a PR plant, but I think you'll find it will ultimately be bad as several other people have pointed out the kind of shoddy reputation this place has.

      --
      Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
    5. Re:Full Sail! by Zoko+Siman · · Score: 1

      Actully, It's not a PR plant, I'm still 17 and in high school. I'm looking to go there myself. Personal site here: http://www.nprgeeks.net THAT is a personal plant :)

      The facilities they have are REALLY nice. I've talked to a student that was in the gd&d course and he said it is really demanding.

  18. Harder than you think? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Obviously. New games these days are frickin' huge and increasingly sophisticated, and they have to be to compete with the OLD games. It comes as no surprise that they are harder to create.

    1. Re:Harder than you think? by TwoBit · · Score: 1

      The above message is scored as "funny" and while it may seem funny, it's entirely true. Why else do laundry detergent makers put "new and improved" stickers on their boxes every few months?

  19. Lua by truth_revealed · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Lua is the embedded interpreted language of choice for game designers. Lua's great for writing the game AI (you don't have to wait for a half hour C++ build). Lua's under 200K, threadsafe, has good OO abstractions, integrates with C very easily, and most important of all - it has a commercial friendly license.

    1. Re:Lua by MaestroSartori · · Score: 1

      Yes, Lua makes things like this, and separating game flow and logic from the guts of the game engine, much easier to sketch out.

      It is also a huge pain in the ass to debug heavily-scripted games. We've reached the stage in the game I'm working on just now that AI coding is being moved back into C from Lua just so it can be more easily debugged...

    2. Re:Lua by truth_revealed · · Score: 1

      A Lua session in the Game Developers Conference in San Jose March 22-26, 2004... Lua in the Gaming Industry

    3. Re:Lua by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is also a huge pain in the ass to debug heavily-scripted games.

      I'd have to agree with you. I see Lua as more of a very high level prototyping tool. If your scripts become too complex it's usually a sign that much of the functionality belongs in the C++ core - and then it can be wrapped and called from Lua again :-)

    4. Re:Lua by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lua is the embedded interpreted language of choice for game designers.

      Says who? I only recognize 3 of the games on their list, and the major game engines are all conspicuously absent.

      Maybe it's a great choice, but it doesn't look like game designers have made it "the language of choice."

    5. Re:Lua by startled · · Score: 1

      What problems are you having? All our scripts execute at a well-defined stage in the pipeline, so race conditions and other tricky situations are nearly nonexistent. For the standard bugs, we get all the usual stuff and then some (better data monitoring and modification on the fly, although we don't get code edit and continue).

      I can't off the top of my head think of anything that'd be easier to debug in C++ than script in our game, but perhaps there's a class of problems I'm not considering.

    6. Re:Lua by Osty · · Score: 1

      Says who? I only recognize 3 of the games on their list, and the major game engines are all conspicuously absent.

      Perhaps you need to play more games? I recognized 10 major games that have either already shipped (Baldur's Gate, MDK2, Homeworld 2, etc), are still in development (Psychonauts, an XBox game, showing Lua's cross-platform abilities), or have been cancelled (Mythica). The list was not just games, either, which is why there are a lot more projects there that you may have never heard of.


      theCarmack and Tim Sweeney, the brains behind the two most important engines right now (the Quake and Unreal lines, of course) have their own agendas, and do often suffer from the "Not Invented Here" syndrome (but they're ubersmart and capable of following NIH and still producing excellent technology). Sweeney's UnrealScript could be a separate language in and of itself, and theCarmack just does his own thing. Not having those engines in the Lua list is not a huge problem, given the history behind them and their creators.


      Maybe it's a great choice, but it doesn't look like game designers have made it "the language of choice."

      My understanding of the project list was that it was just a sample of projects that use Lua. It's not exhaustive, and it's populated on a volunteer basis (from the page, "If you'd like your project to be listed here, please fill in this form."). The fact that there are 10+ major games on the list and a number of independent titles does help lend weight to Lua's place in the game industry. It may not be the scripting language of choice for everybody, but a significant number of developers are using it.

    7. Re:Lua by truth_revealed · · Score: 1

      Sometimes I have a Lua callback calling a C++ function which in turn invokes Lua code. This is fine, but the problems creep in when Lua becomes sentient and tries to take over the Starship Enterprise. This would never happen in C++ - it respects the chain of command.

    8. Re:Lua by Bob+of+Dole · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Ugh. Lua.
      It might be OO & integrate with C fine, but it's still BASIC style language.
      It tries to be a "Programming Language for Non-Programmers!".
      The problem is most people who are actually going to consider using Lua ARE programmers. Trying to force them to use 1-based arrays and such isn't a great idea.

  20. A Blow job by StuWho · · Score: 2, Funny

    This classic work is surely a Blow job...

    --
    "If you think nobody cares if you're alive, try missing a couple of car payments." Earl Wilson
  21. Another sad thing by Monkelectric · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Game development has become so complex that there really is no hope for a small team or a startup to make a decent game.

    I remember when I was 13 writing ASM code code aspiring to write something like Monkey Island -- that was a very attainable goal. I had a friend who was a very good artist, he would whip up a some cells in autodesk animator, I had written a little converter, and we could walk our little guy around the screen against a background. Now truth be told I had NO idea how a game engine worked at 13 years old, but we did end up writing a few neat demos and bbs loaders (I was a weird kid).

    Now the level of art work and technical knowledge required to make something that looks half professional is off the scale. I have a great game idea that I don't think I'll ever be able to realize. Thats the loss I mourn... kids wont ever have the fun I had trying to make a game, and we might never be exposed to some new ideas these kids might have.

    --

    Religion is a gateway psychosis. -- Dave Foley

    1. Re:Another sad thing by alphaseven · · Score: 1
      Game development has become so complex that there really is no hope for a small team or a startup to make a decent game.

      I don't know about that, I'd played the Painkiller demo and it looked really neat, an original engine, huge levels, Havok physics, dozens of monsters at the same time without slowdown. I was blown away that it was done by 20 guys in Poland. And one of the most talked about games is S.T.A.L.K.E.R. coming out of Ukraine.

      Thats the loss I mourn... kids wont ever have the fun I had trying to make a game, and we might never be exposed to some new ideas these kids might have.

      Nah, they'll have fun working on Half-Life II mods and Shockwave games (some of the stuff on the Havok XTRA site looks like it could be done by beginners), sure it's not working from scratch but I bet you didn't write your own compiler either.

  22. Article, addless in full by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Ten or twenty years ago it was all fun and games. Now it's blood, sweat, and code. Project Size and Complexity The hardest part of making a game has always been the engineering. In times past, game engineering was mainly about low-level optimization--writing code that would run quickly on the target computer, leveraging clever little tricks whenever possible. But in the past ten years, games have ballooned in complexity. Now the primary technical challenge is simply getting the code to work to produce an end result that bears some semblance to the desired functionality. To the extent that we optimize, we are usually concerned with high-level algorithmic choices. There's such a wide variety of algorithms to know about, so much experience required to implement them in a useful way, and so much work overall that just needs to be done, that we have a perpetual shortage of qualified people in the industry. Making a game today is a very different experience than it was even in 1994. Certainly, it's more difficult. In order to talk about specifics, I've classified the difficulties into two categories: problems due to overall project size and complexity and problems due to highly domain-specific requirements. Though this will help me introduce the situation in stages, the distinction between the two categories is a bit artificial; we will come full-circle at the end, seeing that there are fundamental domain-specific reasons (problems due to highly domain-specific requirements) why we should expect that games are among the most complicated kinds of software we should expect to see (problems due to overall project size), and why we should not expect this to change for the foreseeable future. PROJECT SIZE AND COMPLEXITY To illustrate the growth of games over the past decade, I've chosen four examples of games and drawn graphs of them. Each node in a graph represents a major area of functionality, and the arcs represent knowledge couplings between modules. Two nodes with an arc between them need to communicate heavily, so design decisions made in one node will propagate through its neighbors. Figure 1 depicts a 2D game from the early 1990s, perhaps a side-scrolling action game for a home console, like Super Metroid. Other genres of game would have slightly different diagrams, for example, a turn-based strategy game like Civilization would gain a node for computer-opponent AI (artificial intelligence), but would lose the node for fast graphics. Certainly Super Metroid itself also has computer opponents, but their behavior is simple enough that it doesn't warrant an extra node; instead the enemy control code is lumped in with "main/misc." By 1996, 3D games had become a large portion of the game industry's output. Figure 2 shows an early 3D game, for example, Mechwarrior 2. Contrast this with figure 3, a modern single-player game. The largest endeavor we currently attempt is the 3D massively multiplayer game (MMG), illustrated in figure 4. Everquest is the canonical first example of a 3D MMG, though a more up-to-date example would be The Matrix Online (expected release in 2004). Contrasting figure 4 to figure 1 should give you a general sense of how the situation has changed. The arcs in these figures assume that code has been ideally factored, but since this is never the case, real-life situations will be more tangled. Keep in mind that each node in these graphs is itself a complex system of many algorithms working together, and that each of these nodes represents somewhere between six thousand and 40 thousand lines of source code. There's another category of game, the non-massively multiplayer client/server game, which tends to house a smaller number of players at once (perhaps 50) and does not maintain a persistent world. The diagram for one of those would be somewhere between figure 3 and figure 4. Tools Tools. To tackle such complexity, it helps to have excellent development tools. Sadly, we do not have excellent development tools. For programming on PCs, we use a compiler development environment like Microsoft Visual

  23. Whoops! by adamvjackson · · Score: 2, Funny

    Anyone else read the headline as "Anatomy of Game Developers" ?

    I always knew they were put together differently!!

    Especially those Running with Sissors guys!!

    1. Re:Whoops! by Have+Blue · · Score: 1

      Judging from their games, I think it's because they tripped a few times.

  24. Meh by KalvinB · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There's still a market for the simpler games. Cell phone games are big. The Game Boy Advance is big and anyone can code for it. Distribution is another matter but there's nothing stopping developers from creating a product to get their feet wet. Worst case you make it a pay per download or give it away free as an ad for your PC games.

    2D used to be the best choice simply because you could do infinitly better looking graphics. 3D is now getting up to par but there's really no reason not to still use 2D. The latest Wario game just took a tile based game and made it a cube based game in 3D. Not a programming challenge at all. Instead of DrawTile you just use DrawCube, increase the dimensions of your map and voila! 3D platformer. I whipped up the basic components in all of a few days (running, jumping, standing on and above things, collision).

    The market is so saturated with 3D first person shooter crap that there's a huge market for games that are simply fun to play. You are not going to get rich from a 3D game so why bother making a crappy 3D game in a lame attempt to milk the 3D scene? Make the best of what you can do, even in 2D and it may not make you rich but at least it won't be half-assed crap.

    Stop worrying about the million dollar budgets and just worry about making a fun product.

    The best application of 2D is in puzzle games which are ginormous. The hardest part is comming up with the new puzzle concept. Programming them is rediculously easy and they're cheap. Which makes it more likely people will buy them as time killers at work to replace solitaire and minesweeper.

    Ben

    1. Re:Meh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cell phone games are big, indeed.

      I've worked on 2 titles alongside a guy who has worked on over 15 cell phone titles, and it's a damned profitable market. A 2 man team made games which in a single year sold $6,000,000 worth in subscriptions.

      Simple games are still very marketable.

  25. Only reveals the limits of closed source by GEEK+CRUSHER+5000 · · Score: 1, Funny

    Clearly the OSS community can do better than this "Final Fantasy" or "Quake" pap, just look at Tux Racer, and Nethack, and FreeCiv, and the BSD games package!

  26. Or perhaps none are willing to do the hours.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    I worked in the games biz for 3 years in QA and production, and finally with a hiring team for engineers in our company. Let me tell you, coders in the games industry are payed jack, and work like mad. Most times, the average work week is anywhere from 80-95 hours for the coding team. I personally got out of the industry because of this. I don't think there are a lack of talented people to do it, just there are not enough people willing to put 80 hours a week in to a game for circa 40-50k, w/no OT.

    1. Re:Or perhaps none are willing to do the hours.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, they really screw you hard because it's a 'fun job' with too many eager new people trying to get into it.

    2. Re:Or perhaps none are willing to do the hours.... by Quasar1999 · · Score: 1

      Welcome to reality. You don't honestly think that there are coding jobs out there with good pay, 40 hour weeks, and paid OT, do you?

      If you do know of any, please, PLEASE let us know!

      Signed:
      overworked coder

      --

      ---
      Programming is like sex... Make one mistake and support it the rest of your life.
    3. Re:Or perhaps none are willing to do the hours.... by Wavicle · · Score: 1

      If you do know of any, please, PLEASE let us know!

      Sas. Now you know.

      60 minutes did a piece on this company (you can read Sas's blurb on it here). They are hiring programmers. Nothing below a master's degree and Ph.D. preferred. But if you have one of those and want to work 35 hours/week with competitive pay and obscenely generous perks, you should apply.

      --
      Education is a better safeguard of liberty than a standing army.
      Edward Everett (1794 - 1865)
    4. Re:Or perhaps none are willing to do the hours.... by tobe · · Score: 1

      This is exactly right. Games programmers are payed *nothing* in comparison to commercial coder and have to spend ludicrous hours at work every time the next milestone is approaching. I spent 3 years in the industry and quickly got fed up with the feeling that I was basically being taken advantage of because I wanted to write games.

      Whatever else is said, there's also a lot of very poor programmers in the games industry. I mean poor as is in the sense of being able to work succesfully on a complex, large scale project as opposed to a technology demo. But I guess that's true of many areas of the industry right now.

    5. Re:Or perhaps none are willing to do the hours.... by kalja · · Score: 1

      Indeed this is the biggest problem in the industry.

      The only people who will apply for a gameprogramming job is the once who hasnt a clue about the gameindustry. Having a single pal who has worked as a gameprogrammer will make you never considering applying for a gameprogramming job.

      The problem is the way the contracts with publishers usually are arranged, a fixed deadline - lousy paid. The only project managers that will accept this is incompetent ones. Meaning the project team will have to work their asses off, or simply go bankrupt.
      Probably this is why all gamecompanies in Sweden is struggling with very bad economics and most of them more or less shutting down.


      To sum stuff up; only volunteers for gameprogramming is the hardcore graphicsprogrammers who loves it. There is a big community behind this (just check flipcode.com) so the games wont stop coming, but however i think the gameindustry is generally underrated and we really should get a more serious market in the near future to get some quality games.

  27. Re: class public interfaces... by TwoBit · · Score: 4, Insightful

    First of all, any change whatsoever in header files trigger rebuilds, not just public interfaces. Secondly, core headers in theory would perhaps be fixed early on, but in practice that's just plain impossible. I can spend a lot of time here trying to explain how that comes about, but it's not worth the effort unless this message got a decent score. Suffice it to say that it's simply impossible to see into the future and know exactly how any header file really needs to be when it's finished.

  28. Oh come off it... by spray_john · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm tired of this, I really am. When will guys like this admit that everyone else works for a living too? No, games are not always very simple. Thanks buddy, we know.

    All this "Life is so hard! My industry is so cruel!" is just attention grabbing to get readers to an otherwise rather dry review article on the elements of commercial game production.

    In other news, games are unimportant. All but a very few games are played by practically no one, and those that do play it throw it away after a couple-dozen hours. Where did this conception that making games was so exciting and dramatic come from? Just because so many other areas of software development are even more mind-numbing doesn't make gamedev automatically interesting!

    Design me a new spoon. Design me a spoon that will be sold across the world, used by millions on a daily basis for years of their life. Design me a brilliant spoon, and I will be impressed.

    1. Re:Oh come off it... by Naysayer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As the author of the article, I'll just say that I wasn't trying to impress anyone with how difficult my life is. I like games, that's why I work on them.

      They are, however, one of the most challenging kinds of software engineering there is. And that's how I'm hoping the article is taken -- as a call to challenge for people who may be interested.

      And there is no spoon.

    2. Re:Oh come off it... by hthiefshorty · · Score: 1

      You are the author, we get it.

    3. Re:Oh come off it... by jdonnis · · Score: 1

      Yes, games are unimportant, just like music, movies, painting are unimportant.

      Or perhaps the idea of entertainment just hasnt gotten to you yet?

  29. HL2 delay tactic by d_i_r_t_y · · Score: 4, Funny

    is this article written by the half-life2 people to attempt to justify another 6 month wait? i wanna play it now damnit!

    1. Re:HL2 delay tactic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah, this article is written by a person who blew (the pun is intentional) Deus Ex 2 to what it is - a pathetic parody on the great game the original was. Now he is trying to explain just how hard his job is. Pathetic, here, I said it again ;-P

    2. Re:HL2 delay tactic by EventHorizon · · Score: 1

      You can. Just make sure you grab a Visual C++ torrent at the same time.

      I think there's a Visual C++ source release coming out soon too, but you'll probably still need a binary version to bootstrap it.

  30. You could try the Guildhall by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    There is a school in Dallas called the Guildhall. They focus on Game Design, Software Development and Art Creation.

  31. Your god, Carmack, is wrong. by Mulletproof · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sorry, Carmack is full of BS. Story makes or breaks a game in more than a few cases. Take Halo. Without the excellent story and plot devices, Halo would have been nothing but another faceless FPS. A pretty one, but hardly the best seller it was for the XBox. Story drove that game. Story seperates Baldurs Gate 2, a masterpiece, from the gorgeous but hollow Neverwinter Nights. NWN has BG2 dead to rights on every point except one, and it's that point alone that elevates BG2 to legendary status.

    Of course Carmack says story is not really that important... Look at the games he designs-- FPS almost exclusively without story. It's a pretty narrow vision to be making such sweeping judgements from and it hardly makes his word gospel.

    --
    You need a FREE iPod Nano
    1. Re:Your god, Carmack, is wrong. by xenocide2 · · Score: 1

      Yea, story drove Halo's popularity, and not the multiplayer. Sure. And it certianly wasn't the forced bundling of games for early adopters. And, whats the story behind multiplayer? Red VS Blue has explored this gaping hole of plot effectively for nearly 25 episodes so far.

      --
      I Browse at +4 Flamebait

      Open Source Sysadmin

    2. Re:Your god, Carmack, is wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm so glad Halo for PC was delayed.

      Story? Story means fuck all in that genre of game.

      Playing the demo of Halo for PC let me see what a piece of shit it was. It might have been different had they originally released it for PC and then attempted a console version. But by completing the console version first they ruined the game.

      So Halo had a good story? Who gives a fuck. Gameplay was whacked. Might have been impressive to a user of console games but for a PC user Halo is nothing special and two years out of date.

    3. Re:Your god, Carmack, is wrong. by Jellybob · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Halo has a story along the same lines as a good B movie - as an example, I just watched some of an Alien film... there wasn't actually much story ("The miltary are researching Aliens they know are dangerous for... no particular reason"), but it was scary as hell, because of the shell of a story there, setting things up so you know *something* is just around the corner.

      Halo is the same (although I havn't finished it yet, I just got the PC version). It has some of the tensest gameplay I've seen since Half Life (which also had a B movie plot) - I just played the bit where you work into an alien base, and meet... nothing. Absolutely nothing but a few low level aliens at the begining, for 10-15 minutes.

      It's terrifying, because you *know* something big is about to go off... you can just tell. And then you find some privates recording of what killed him, and the whole time your watching it, you're just sat there thinking "shit.", because you know you're about to have to fight it.

      It's genious - a perfectly crafted piece of storyline, using the same plot device as some of the worst games ever, it's how it's pulled off that does the job.

    4. Re:Your god, Carmack, is wrong. by danila · · Score: 1

      I don't think we speak about the same things when we talk about the story. Take Max Payne 1/2 or Mafia, for example. They had a story, but besides the style that story provided and settings for the next shooting/driving/stealth/whatever episode it was pretty much irrelevant.

      Of course, if you are doing a game about humans vs. humans, (not humans vs. aliens or humans vs. zombies), you need a story wrapper for the events. But in FPS/RTS/some other S games the fun does not come from witnessing a rich storyline. At least for me, you might have been touched and moved by that bitch shooting Max Payne in MP2 or by that bastard killing Mona.

      Of course, there is a catch. You don't need a story, but you still need the settings and the style. You need to design huge believable levels and carefully design gameplay around these levels, which is difficult and also time consuming. Sometimes it might even look like a story, but it isn't. And Stephen King will not help you make a great FPS, besides providing a believable setting, like a haunted house or a zombie infected city (but id did just find with Dangerous Dave all by themselves). :)

      --
      Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
    5. Re:Your god, Carmack, is wrong. by Mindcry · · Score: 1

      i wouldn't call halo's story excellent in any way...

      cutscene, blow stuff up, unimportant cutscene, can i blow something else up now? ...at least i know for me personally, it wasn't good enough for me to give a crap about the what the story was... I just wanted to get back to blasting things...

      Halo is purely linear gameplay, so the story is fairly unimportant, because you really have no say beyond, do what i want or quit playing... as far as story goes, i'd have to say planescape: torment is still the best and my personal favorite hands down...

    6. Re:Your god, Carmack, is wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NWN has BG2 dead to rights on every point except one, and it's that point alone that elevates BG2 to legendary status.

      NWN's campaign was tedious, poorly balanced and ultimately unrewarding hack n' slash. That's level design, not story. It's single character only premise more or less forced power gaming. That's a design decision, not story.

  32. Old Interactive Basic Game, one line of code by RichMan · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Here is an interactive game in one line of basic code (ok 4 statements, but you could write it in one basic numbered statement). Just showing what could be done with minimal code.

    You control an object at the top of the screen it will move left if you don't push shift, right if you do. Blocks "###" are printed at the bottom of the screen and scroll up. If you crash into a block it is game over. Quite complex for 1 line. I would walk into stores displaying computers without games that attracted the kids, type this in and have fun.

    I had versions for PET, VIC20, C64, APPLE II, TRS80 machines

    Adjust for my bad memory and learning of many other languages since then.

    0 poke 32788+a,65; a = a + peek(515)*2-1; print tab(36*rnd()),"###"; if (peek(32788+a) == 32) goto 0;

    clear the screen, scroll to the bottom and run

    Break down
    A) poke - puts player "A" set by ascii 65 at the middle of the top line of the screen plus the offset a
    B) adjust the offset a of the players position dependent on the state of the shift key
    C) print - puts a block in a random position on the next line. If this is the bottom of the screen, we get a scroll and everything moves up and the players object is cleared off the top
    D) check the new position of the player to see if it is clear

    Majic numbers
    32788 address of the middle of the top line of the screen
    65 character for players object
    36 + width of block is 1 less than the width of the screen, in this case 36+3 40
    515 shift key status updated by system interrupt

  33. Oh no! by xihr · · Score: 1

    You mean game programmers actually have to behave like professional programmers and learn about algorithms and data structures and computer science instead of doing a constant stream of half-assed hacks? God forbid!

  34. Not at all true by Perianwyr+Stormcrow · · Score: 3, Informative

    Even if you make the game in such a manner as not to be "professional", you may still have a winner of a game. Stuff written in Flash is very easy to do yet brings out remarkable results.

    Not every game has to be a 3d FPS or whatever. Uplink was written by a couple of guys in the UK and is one hell of a good game.

    If you want to do more than a Flash game, that's quite doable as well. Writing a high end 3d engine is indeed hard stuff, but that's why we have mods! Not only can you learn a lot from the open sourced engines out there, you can use some of them to make a mod that is high quality stuff.

    You mentioned artwork: well, fear not- the stuff you can do with the right tools is shocking. You can grab a copy of Blender, and after a few weeks of beating it up you will be turning out 3d models that are better than what you figured you could have made at the beginning. The GIMP is perfectly good for texturing models, and has just about all you'll need for the task (while the GIMP isn't professional photo editing software, it's great for making textures and web graphics.)

    --

    What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey

    1. Re:Not at all true by Monkelectric · · Score: 1
      You mentioned artwork: well, fear not- the stuff you can do with the right tools is shocking. You can grab a copy of Blender, and after a few weeks of beating it up you will be turning out 3d models that are better than what you figured you could have made at the beginning. The GIMP is perfectly good for texturing models, and has just about all you'll need for the task (while the GIMP isn't professional photo editing software, it's great for making textures and web graphics.)

      Lemme ask you a question then -- where i get stuck in the 3d world is modeling anything somewhat complex :). I used to be a whiz with POVRAY +MORAY and can model just about any building or space ship, but how does one model say a character?

      --

      Religion is a gateway psychosis. -- Dave Foley

  35. Outsource by crawdaddy · · Score: 0

    Top reason against (for?) outsourcing: "All your base are belong to us."

    On a side note, this is my second Zero-Wing joke in one afternoon...I'm starting to feel very dirty. Maybe I should try something different:

    In Soviet Russia, the programs develop YOU!
    (that works on +funny AND +interesting levels!)

  36. Tasogare by Luke-Jr · · Score: 0, Redundant

    The goals of my project Tasogare (which will probably begin development sometime in the next year when higher-priority projects are complete) would for the most part allow the designers themselves to create the games since it would have most of the code all implemented in a way that isn't specific to any single game.

    P.S. If any other game developers want to help out, let me know. This project is too large for just a few people.

    --
    Luke-Jr
    1. Re:Tasogare by Luke-Jr · · Score: 1

      Nothing redundant here... Metamod, plz.

      --
      Luke-Jr
  37. The complexities of modern software development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting
    The author needs to get a grip. Hardly anything he has written is specific to game development. Sounds like a programmer struggling with the realities of any complex software development project.

    Let look at a few examples:
    Games have ballooned in complexity-
    I think it is safe to say that nearly all software has grown in complexity. For traditional client-centric applications, we have seen interfaces grow more complicated and sophisticated. Unlike software designed in 1996 nearly all applications are now internet aware. Even your wordprocessor has the ability to communicate via the internet, to interact with email and offer colaboration functionality.
    Very little software is designed to operate in the vacuum of a stand-alone workstation anymore. Apparently this is also true of games. Wow, brilliant insight.

    Tools-
    The author is probably correct about a lack of competing products for Windows C++ development. Still Visual C++ is quite a good IDE. A lot of the issues raised are more generic complaints about C++ development than anything specific to game development. While game programming has its own special requirements- 3D rendering for example- other types of software has different but equally complicated needs. For example, the complexities of interating with a wide variety of back-end databases, message-queueing software and legacy mainframe systems add layer up layer of complexity to most business applications. The specific requirement is game-development specific but the problem is one which all complex projects face.
    Let face it, the need for source control systems which are able to manage arbitary content is hardly unique to game development. Nearly every project I have ever seen runs into source control issues.

    Workflow issues
    Now the issue of re-compilation times, debug build load times and other development issues are a problem for ALL big software development projects. Multi-platform issues are equally problematic. This is hardly restricted to game development

    Third party components-
    Always an interesting issue for application development and not exactly one confined to game development. Think about applications you have seen which manipulate data and display charts and graphs. How many of those apps actually have custom written charting libraries. Hardly any. Nearly ever application OEMs someone's ibrary with all the associated headaches that come with emebedding components over which you have no control. That is the trade-off you make. You save 10 man-years of effort in developing a graphing library and you lose control of the source code, bug-fixing, release cycles and the ability to add new, special or project specific functionality. (Unless of course you go OSS). Big deal. Highly Domain Specific Requirements-
    This is the dumbest section in the article. All software has some domain specific requirement otherwise it wouldn't be an application, it would be some sort of generic framework. Games clearly have a set of requirements not found in typical application software- 3D graphics, AI and sound effects for example. However if we look at network security applications for example, I think that we can safely say that there are just as many complex, domain specific requirements involved in TCP/IP protocols, packet sniffing, network tracing , etc.

    Profiling-
    Profiling all code is hard. Identifying bottlenecks in code which involves a great deal of user interaction is very complicated. Hardly specific to game programming.

    Reality check time. All the article says is in 2004 that users expect a far more sophisticated product than have been required in 1996. Engineering complex products is difficult. Welcome to the software industry.

    1. Re:The complexities of modern software development by Naysayer · · Score: 5, Informative

      (I wrote the article).

      I have done both business programming ("enterprise middleware development", etc etc) and game programming. And yes, there are commonalities between the two, but all I can say is, games are just a lot harder. Maybe you just have to have tried them both to really understand.

      What I was trying to get at was not just ballooning complexity of application requirements, but also the inherent superconnectedness of subsystems in games. In a game, every subsystem wants to talk to every other one, and you have to work REALLY hard to prevent this from happening, and often you just can't. This changes a lot of things.

      Still I do agree that there are some commonalities with other software development (in fact I say as much in the article; I divide it into two parts, one that's not so specific to games, and one that is...)

    2. Re:The complexities of modern software development by sineltor · · Score: 1

      Ok. Software is hard and complex; but I disagree with many of your points.

      Unreal 2004 has over 2 million lines of code. Monkey island (~1989) had in the viscinity of 50 000. Thats a big difference; IMO bigger than the difference in most computing projects.

      Tools - You talk about databases being complex... there are pre-existing solutions for databases that are functionally mostly complete (postgresql, berkdb, etc) and viewing software (phpMyAdmin, etc). Try making an arbitrarily large 3d world in 3d studio max. Try adding arbitrary tokens around the place. Try adding multiple mesh detail levels. Try adding a sound source and then outputting the whole thing into a custom file format. Ok; so its gotten better but there's still a long way to go for games. Most professional game developers have to write a complete set of tools just so their designers can give their game content. If you've ever used the NeverWinterNights Module builder you'll understand the complexity I'm talking about. That thing is nearly as complex as the game itself.

      Workflow Issues - What do large projects do to cut down on complexity and compilation time? They have interfaces. The hardest thing about game development is making the complex code run *fast*. That means no stupidly complex interfaces - every cycle counts. You often want your modules to talk directly to each other.
      Multiple platforms are problematic? How often writing a database program do you need it to run on 5 archetectures; each with a different interface and different bottlenecks? These days you can mostly get away with just windows or windows/linux/macos. In game development you don't just have to write code for multiple platforms but they all have to be optimised differently (different spec'ed machines). Even PCs need seperate code for different video cards. Doom3 has 5 rendering pipelines or something stupid just because of the range of hardware it has to run on; and has to run *fast* on.

      3rd party components - fine game dev isn't the only one.

      Domain Specific requirements -
      A good game developer arguably has to know:
      DirectX, Opengl, AI theory (fuzzy logic, learning algorithms, etc), Assembler, 3d theory, Linear Algebra and Calculus, The video pipeline, Sound, Optimisation theory, Game theory, threading, interface design, Networking, compression, encryption, security, etc. You have to learn all that stuff then you have to learn to do it all fast. So other computing projects are hard too; Game development is just way more complicated than most.

      Profiling -
      Profiling is hard globally huh? Well try doing 3d. Maybe half your slowdown is the 3d card. You can't really profile the 3d card... if your framerate is half what it should be on one particular system its really difficult to know whats going wrong. Some cards struggle with large numbers of pixels and others struggle more with verticies. What quality of shaders can you use? Modern games watch the framerate and dynamically tweak small visual elements. The average application is allowed to run slowly if you have a slow system. Games must be playable with any (modern) computer and have better visual quality if the system can manage it. That means different code paths. Identifying bottlenecks requires a great deal of user interaction huh? Not in games. Warcraft3 does it with almost no interaction whatsoever.

      Welcome to the game industry. Please leave your sanity at the door.

      --
      'No publisher will ever pay you enough to successfully sue them' - Dave Sim
    3. Re:The complexities of modern software development by TwoBit · · Score: 1

      Something the article could have mentioned was how memory analysis tools fail on large games. I tried using every memory management tool I could find (e.g. BoundsChecker, Purify, etc.) on our million line and > million concurrent allocations game and they all failed (usually with crashes or hangs), crumbling under the weight of the application and their own limitations. The closest to succeed was Purify which would sometimes work but when it did it was so slow that the game took an hour just to start up under it and ran at a completely unusable rate when it did get started.

    4. Re:The complexities of modern software development by Pete · · Score: 2, Insightful
      sineltor:
      Unreal 2004 has over 2 million lines of code. Monkey island (~1989) had in the viscinity of 50 000. Thats a big difference;

      Sure is. Do you have a reference for that 50 000 lines of code estimate for Monkey Island? And do you know if that included both the engine code and the game/story code (which were probably written in different languages, as far as I've heard).

      I'm not disputing your figures, you understand, I'd just like to know where you got them from. :)

      Workflow Issues - What do large projects do to cut down on complexity and compilation time? They have interfaces. The hardest thing about game development is making the complex code run *fast*. That means no stupidly complex interfaces - every cycle counts. You often want your modules to talk directly to each other.

      Wow. That sounds like it contradicts every bit of guru advice I've ever heard on optimisation, most of which boils down to "optimising too early is a mug's game" (pun intended). Or, to quote Knuth more directly: "Premature optimisation is the root of all evil." The "performance" section of these so-called pearls of wisdom :) is particularly appropriate. And while searching for one of the above quotes I found this article, which explains the concept even better.

      In any kind of programming, if you start optimising too early, you're almost certainly just going to be wasting your time (and massively fucking up the system design, too, if you're coupling modules together unnecessarily, as suggested by "You often want your modules to talk directly to each other.").

      Well-designed interfaces also make it much easier to profile and do effective optimisation - when it's appropriate to do so, ie. when it's all working correctly, just too slowly.

      Welcome to the game industry. Please leave your sanity at the door.

      Sounds like it, yes. You have my sympathy. :)

      Pete, who is very glad he isn't involved in the game industry, as he already has precious little sanity left from other industries...
    5. Re:The complexities of modern software development by Pete · · Score: 1

      Naysayer - just a couple of questions, if you could answer.. I was puzzled by a couple of elements in your article, specifically to do with source control and build management, and how they relate.

      (Note: quotes are directly from the article)

      Lately, some companies have risen to provide asset control specifically for game projects. These tools are still far from ideal, but we have reason to hope that they will improve.

      What exactly is there about game project "asset" control that is different from any other kind of software development asset control? If some software companies actually think it worthwhile to develop and sell tools specifically for game development, there must be something unusual about game development that makes traditional source control tools like Perforce or Bitkeeper less than ideal (and if the better tools are less than ideal, I can only imagine how bad the mediocre (CVS), the overengineered (ClearCase) or the really atrocious (SourceSafe) tools would be :-).

      Otherwise:

      During development we often have to build the game for all build types (Debug, Release) for all target platforms (PC, Playstation 2, Xbox) before committing our changes to source control.

      That seems insane. You have to jump all those hoops before committing a simple code change on a single file?

      So before a programmer can check in a batch of changes, they may need to perform between two and five full recompiles (which, as we mentioned earlier, sometimes take half an hour each!).

      Full recompiles? In god's name, why? If you've changed a handful of files, all you should need to do is verify that those files compile+link+sort-of-work (before checking in to source control), surely...?

      As in large business projects, bigger game teams tend to have a "build master," a person whose job is to watch over the build, ensuring that disruptions are remedied as quickly as possible. Sometimes pleasing the build master can be a difficult task. Yet despite the presence of a build master, builds still seem to be broken too often.

      The sort of build management systems I'm used to involve scheduling a (usually automated) nightly build and battery of tests, performed on the latest code from the source control system (or perhaps on more than one branch in some cases).

      If the tests (or the compile) fail, the job of the build master (usually by default the lead programmer) is to find out which developer(s) are responsible and get them to work out the problems.

      The programmer's responsibilities are essentially just to verify that their code changes compile (and, preferably, do the right thing) before committing. But getting every programmer to test on all platforms, in both debug and release form, before committing any changes - that's just insane. So insane, in fact, that I'm really hoping I've completely misunderstood you and you don't really work like that... because it'd just lead to enormous time gaps between commits and massive pain when people have to routinely deal with significant code merging issues.

      Please tell me I've misunderstood - or you were just exaggerating a bit for effect ;-).

      BTW, thanks for the article. Well-written and very interesting.

      Pete.
    6. Re:The complexities of modern software development by archilocus · · Score: 1

      The one big difference in games is the competitve market they're in. The software is just the same but the conditions are *much* tighter.

      To give you an idea, I talked to a Project Manager from EA once who told me that the useful life of a computer game was six weeks.

      They'd spend a year or two working on a game but if it didn't recoup it's cost in the first six weeks they were dead in the water. Past six weeks everyone moves off onto the next-new-thing and your game goes onto the back list.

      Course if you make your money back in six weeks the rest is gravy and hopefully means bonuses all round...

      --

      Don't look back the lemmings are gaining on you

    7. Re:The complexities of modern software development by Lonath · · Score: 1

      Lately, some companies have risen to provide asset control specifically for game projects. These tools are still far from ideal, but we have reason to hope that they will improve.

      I think he means the thousands of models, animations, textures, cinematics, and sounds and so forth you have in games. Most other apps don't have this many "non-software" files floating around.

    8. Re:The complexities of modern software development by Naysayer · · Score: 1

      What exactly is there about game project "asset" control that is different from any other kind of software development asset control?

      As one of the guys who replied to this thread mentioned, it's that we have huge truckloads of assets. In games currently in development, we tend to have a few gigabytes' worth of assets in the tree, and that is only getting bigger. (That's the size of one snapshot, not the size of the repository, of course). A lot of this is big binary files for 3D meshes, texture map, sound effects, etc etc.

      Now imagine that you have 60 people pounding on this multi-gigabyte asset tree all day, every day. Problems arise. I'm not trying to say that they're insurmountable problems, because they're not... but, none of the asset control products have really risen to the challenge. (Though there are a few lately that are a lot better than what we've had in the past).


      That seems insane. You have to jump all those hoops before committing a simple code change on a single file?

      Yes. If you do not do this, the probability is high that you will break the build for everyone else in the company. That's a lot of lost time, both tangibly (number of minutes lost * number of workers) and intangibly (loss of momentum, loss of faith in tools working and just generally being able to get things done when you need to).


      Full recompiles? In god's name, why? If you've changed a handful of files, all you should need to do is verify that those files compile+link+sort-of-work (before checking in to source control), surely...?

      The point is that you often need to change a header file that is included widely, hence the full recompiles (or near-full recompiles). And you *need* to do this, because when you become afraid to change the global structure of your code, the code rots. Full recompiles are more necessary in games than other projects, because games have a higher connectedness factor -- there are a lot more dependencies than you have in typical business programming.

      That said, full recompiles are definitely not a good thing and we generally try to avoid them. Most of the time we do get by with incremental builds. But if you only do full recompiles 10% of the time, but each of those compiles takes 30 minutes, that time still dominates.


      If the tests (or the compile) fail, the job of the build master (usually by default the lead programmer) is to find out which developer(s) are responsible and get them to work out the problems.

      The programmer's responsibilities are essentially just to verify that their code changes compile (and, preferably, do the right thing) before committing. But getting every programmer to test on all platforms, in both debug and release form, before committing any changes - that's just insane. So insane, in fact, that I'm really hoping I've completely misunderstood you and you don't really work like that... because it'd just lead to enormous time gaps between commits and massive pain when people have to routinely deal with significant code merging issues.

      Please tell me I've misunderstood - or you were just exaggerating a bit for effect ;-).

      Catching build errors sometime during the next day is way too late... in the meantime you've screwed everyone who tried to sync during the checkin.

      We do tend to have nightly-automated-compile-and-test processes like this, but they are more about producing definitive working builds for people like the artists and level designers to use, and also to act as a second-tier sanity check. But it doesn't do the whole job. If you check in something that breaks the build, you WILL have a lot of people annoyed at you, probably within 15 minutes of your checkin.

      So no, it wasn't an exaggeration!
  38. Re: class public interfaces... by cheide · · Score: 1

    One of the design patterns is the 'pimpl', where most of the private members are hidden within a pointer to a separate internal class that is declared but undefined to the external world. You can then make whatever changes you want to the private members in the internal class without changing the header file and triggering those unnecessary rebuilds as long as the public interface hasn't changed. (It also keeps the size of the object constant, for places where that may be important.)

    The downside is that now you have to reference all those private members through this extra pointer, which is annoying. That's why it's really only highly recommended for very widely used classes.

  39. 20 years ago ? by McSnarf · · Score: 1
    Games were simple. But - addictive. People spent ages over empire, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy or a predecessor to NetHack.

    All of them are still pretty playable. Most flash games just last one lunch break.

  40. free software has a tactical advantage here by H4x0r+Jim+Duggan · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Although I'm a programmer, I've spent time learning GIMP, blender, Sodopi (and a load of applications from other skill domains) - when no one is regulating your use of software, you're free to teach yourself what ever you want.

    It's not a qualification, but you can easily learn enough to bluff through an interview. (so long as you can tell that the job is really just a programming job with too many requirements written in the spec to make a manager feel like she's doing her job.) ...free software is the way the world *should* work

    1. Re:free software has a tactical advantage here by jimbolaya · · Score: 1

      You do realize the irony here, I hope. You've just discussed interviewing for a job, writing software for a paycheck, and yet you say "free software is the way the world *should* work"? Where, then, is the money supposed to come from to pay you for this job for which you're interviewing?

      --

      There ain't no rules here; we're trying to accomplish something.

    2. Re:free software has a tactical advantage here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, wow, you've got a point there.

      Don't forget to tell this to the free software developers at MySQL, RedHat, codesourcery, Sun's OpenOffice dept., Mandrakesoft, and probably 100 other companies that employ 25+ free software developers.

  41. Why 20 hour RPG's do not quite work by LordZardoz · · Score: 4, Interesting

    For what it's worth, Yes, I am a professional Game Programmer.

    From a programming standpoint, 20 hours of high quality game play is just as difficult as 60 hours. The bulk of the work for an additional 40 hours is done by artists and level designers creating the additional content.

    And a shorter game does not aid its 'beat-ability'. It just aids its re-playability. Most 60 hour games can be beaten in 20 hours or less, typically, you just skip the side quests.

    And doing a 20 hour game, but making more of them reeks of what EA does with expansion packs. Its a very shallow marketing ploy.

    I would rather play one long well made game, then 1 short well made game and 4 short crappy games tossed off with the aim of turning out a profit.

    END COMMUNICATION

    1. Re:Why 20 hour RPG's do not quite work by nomadic · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yeah I spent an insane amount of time playing the original Might and Magic, didn't get close to finishing it. My party's levels were in the hundreds and we could kill anything we found, but for all I know Corak's still waiting for me to do his little quest...

    2. Re:Why 20 hour RPG's do not quite work by _Shorty-dammit · · Score: 1

      there is an amazing amount of people who are continually pissed off at being ripped off by game developers delivering games that are beaten in ~5 hours, most notably FPS games. You pay $75, and then comes the weekend and you have time to play it, and you beat it in two sittings. WTF? Gimme my money back, thief.

    3. Re:Why 20 hour RPG's do not quite work by TRACK-YOUR-POSITION · · Score: 2, Interesting

      From a programming standpoint, 20 hours of high quality game play is just as difficult as 60 hours. The bulk of the work for an additional 40 hours is done by artists and level designers creating the additional content. But whether we're talking about the forementioned Lone Wolf or a Huge Company, level design and art are still expensive, no? I would rather play one long well made game, then 1 short well made game and 4 short crappy games tossed off with the aim of turning out a profit. I'd rather play the one short boldly innovative game, let the other 4 rot on the shelf, then play the one huge game that's exactly like last year's one huge game but with better graphics because management refused to take any risks with their multi-million dollar project. The reason for short games isn't because short is better, but because innovation is proportional to risk-taking which is inversely proportional to cost which MIGHT be proportional to length?

    4. Re:Why 20 hour RPG's do not quite work by ZhuLien · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It is hard to compare games by time it takes to play them. I spend large amounts of money on great (to me at least) arcade games and I really only like arcade games. How many hours of gameplay do you consider Galaga to have for example? 2 minutes? 1000 hours? Does it matter if it is a great game? The replay value in great arcade games is priceless. I have found in the majority (not all) of 3D games of the last few years, they have almost zero replay value. Why pay for a game you are only going to play once or twice? I am sure I will get more replay value from Metal Slug 3 or R Type Final than the majority of other recent releases - garaunteed!

    5. Re:Why 20 hour RPG's do not quite work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you want to learn about replay-value then you should load these games into your amiga emulator ASAP:
      • Speedball II
      • Paradroid 90
      • Nuclear War

    6. Re:Why 20 hour RPG's do not quite work by ZhuLien · · Score: 1

      or my Amiga

    7. Re:Why 20 hour RPG's do not quite work by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      Absolutely. More than that, though, are short games that actually have the potential to take a lot longer if the player wants them to. Take something like thief (never played it, but want to), or if anyone's heard of "Oni". I like the stealth games, and they take more strategy and less running through levels blowing things up.

      This means that, given the same size level as your average "shoot everything that moves" game, it could take twice as long, maybe longer, to play. It's also more satisfying (to me).

      More on topic, the whole reason I wanted a CS degree was to eventually work in gaming. I'd written several on my Atari and on the C-64s we had in our high school, and on the Apple 2's we had. I ended up going hollywood (well, TV, anyway), but am happy I did. I had several programming friends who burned out in the gaming industry (I knew several Westwood people). I make a lot more money in a very satisfying job (it's still the entertainment industry, after all). I'd still like to make games, but don't have enough spare time. The lone-wolf guy above is right. It's just too hard to make a compelling game alone. Being stuck in TV, I work with a bunch of artists, but no other programmers. I could probably get some good content from them, though. At least I have access to our texture libraries, which is nice. I'll have start making some of my ideas more concrete and see what I can do.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
  42. too many designers and not enough programmers by tbarrett · · Score: 2, Insightful
    too many designers and not enough programmers

    BS. Programmers are like actors in movies. Sure they're vitally important but without the huge support group making scores, costumes, scripts, sound effects, CGI, directing, producing, and just shooting the damn thing you wont end up with much of a movie.

    Just like with any modern game you'll need a soundtrack, sound effects, level design, textures, models, animations, voice-overs and a good story.

    Honestly one good texture artist is worth their weight in gold. Far more than any coder but the lead at any rate.

    1. Re:too many designers and not enough programmers by geekoid · · Score: 1

      thats true, but you still can have too many designers.

      Or too many programmer who aren't that good(JR I'm looking at you).

      I would rather see a play without support, then a film without actors.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  43. Games really are hard by Animats · · Score: 3, Informative
    As someone who's worked on game physics technology, I agree with this article. Modern game development is really hard. And the people who do it are some of the best programmers I've ever met. Go to the Game Developers' Conference and sit in on a physics or AI session. Watch punked-out twentysomethings fill up whiteboards with advanced math. Those guys are really good.

    The game development community used to take algorithms from other fields. Now they've gone beyond academia in graphics, physics simulation, and AI. Games are a tough, competitive market, and the stuff has to work, or you get trashed in reviews. That makes for real progress.

    1. Re:Games really are hard by sean.geek.nz · · Score: 1
      Go to the Game Developers' Conference and sit in on a physics or AI session. Watch punked-out twentysomethings fill up whiteboards with advanced math. Those guys are really good

      Wibble. Try doing credit risk analysis. Maths phDs pushing algorithms around for high-performance systems so your bank's trader can find out how much margin he should charge, while on the phone to the client. Don't worry, it'll only cost millions if you screw it up. Try a generic system to evaluate student's qualifications. It's NP-hard, but it's got to perform well, so you're very focussed on heuristics (that job sucked - and I still think we should have talked the client out of it instead of building it for them).

      If you're comparing it to the business programming done in building your local petstore's website, then game programming is hard. But real "business programming" encompasses so much diversity that it's hard to say what it's like except in terms of generalities - and at that general level the problems you have these days appear an awful lot like the problems that games tech is having these days.

      My guess (can anyone confirm or deny?) is that the article's author did business programming years ago, then moved into games, and they aren't up with how complex business programming has become. IMAO: The things that make business programming work these days are that (1) 80% is easy, dross work it's only 20'% that's hard and (2) we're moving away from low-level work in C++ except for specialist libraries because in business the increased complexity in development in C++ isn't worth the increase performance (except in a few very specialized bottlenecks - the 5% of code that takes 80% of the time).

      Sean

  44. Reminds me of the ads for unix programmers. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It's the usual story. Companies demand experience on all posts, and then whine about lack of "qualified" applicants. While ignoring the fact that they themselves are creating a qualification that's impossible to get.

    Reminds me of the ads I used to see when Unix was first catching on. Entry-level pay jobs requiring 5 or 10 years of Unix experience, obviously written by HR people with no clue.

    I guess Kernighan, Ritchie, Thompson, Bourne, and Plauger weren't tempted into leaving Bell Labs by the pay scale. B-)

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    1. Re:Reminds me of the ads for unix programmers. by JamesP · · Score: 1

      I tremind me of the (5 year experience w/ Windows 95) posted in 1996...

      --
      how long until /. fixes commenting on Chrome?
    2. Re:Reminds me of the ads for unix programmers. by AigariusDebian · · Score: 1

      Jep, the same now - "10 years of .Net experience" anyone?

  45. complexity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
    ..isn't it a good thing if organizations, corporate and otherwise, conscript consortiums of coders for tasks? Forget corporations as the sole custodians of disbursing funds. Coders work at uneven times and not always congruent development junctions in relation to other coders.

    If putting together a 3D engine on a real time schedule means 50-75 core components but 5 different IDEs and 3 or 4 compilers not all the parties have to vest themselves with alike design interests. As a matter of fact to stimulate creativity and competition it should be emphasized complexity is encouraged in game development but tolerated only to a point and cut there when it gets crazy.

    The point is making money from well written, well executed code and delivering it to the clients!

  46. Harder every year... by gad_zuki! · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Every year or so I buy a game that consists of 90% 3D fluff. I just spent an hour at Dave and Busters and really enjoyed the "old" 2D interfaces because they nether helped nor hindered good games. By good game I mean something designed with regards to gameplay and not another over-done FPS maze game or cookie-cutter strategy game.

    The game industry looks like the equivalant of the comic book industry in the eary 90s, lots of eye-candy, gimmick covers, etc and little substance. Seems its a technological arms race to build games that run on the newest hardware and that gameplay is the last thing on the 'to do' list.

    1. Re:Harder every year... by Naysayer · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Yeah. This is a problem, but it's actually one that the industry is aware of.

      Of course some of this is due to publishers just being imaginative and wanting to pump out the same old dreck as some other game that did pretty well. But really a lot of it has to do with games being hard to make. Often games have to cut tons of features/levels/testing in order to make it out the door only a year late. So usually the game you buy that is mostly fluff, that you're disappointed with, is not much like the game that the developers originally set out to create.

      As we become more comfortable with basic technology (3D graphics and physics and stuff) it will probably become easier to get the basics done. At some point a lot of the risk will be mitigated, and you'll start seeing more creativity because we start developing with a higher baseline. Hopefully within the next few years!

    2. Re:Harder every year... by wibs · · Score: 2, Insightful

      As we become more comfortable with basic technology (3D graphics and physics and stuff) it will probably become easier to get the basics done. At some point a lot of the risk will be mitigated, and you'll start seeing more creativity because we start developing with a higher baseline. Hopefully within the next few years!

      Yes and no. There isn't a whole lot left to discover and become familiar with in the engines that already exist, because, well, they already exist. I mean, what does the Quake 3 engine really have that people aren't familiar with? On the plus side maybe future engines will be a little easier to work with, in theory.

      But there's another side about continued development. It gets mentioned all the time on slashdot, so I hate to use, but it's the old "I'll NEVER need more than xx amount of RAM" argument again. New technologies, methods, etc will be developed, and developers will need to become familiar with them, and release dates will be pushed up even as programmers are still feeling out the system, so they'll be forced to cut out what they really want to make.

      The solution won't come through familiarity with the technology, it'll come through a change in the way that games are developed.

      --
      If you get nervous, just remember that there are a few billion other people who don't really give a damn.
  47. Blow, J by Sovern · · Score: 2, Funny

    you could write it that way.

    --
    And it rendered on, until the end of its days.
  48. Another sad thing-Distributed development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I believe there's something being worked on, over on the Blender site. Sort of a high-level communications protocal between 3D apps (tools).

    I see with broadband being 30%, artist, designers, sound, and all the others working in an OSS fashion in the same country bringing games about.

    Throw in OSS built libraries of code, sound, textures, and reference material. Welcome to the future of gaming.

  49. Maybe they should open source game development by blair1q · · Score: 1

    Maybe they should open-source game development.

    Then in just 8 more years we'll get OSSSSSEverQwest-0.0.97beta and it'll have real 2-d sprite graphics and stuff...

    1. Re:Maybe they should open source game development by Sj0 · · Score: 1

      You know, there are "Open Source" games out there that aren't nessessarily from the OSS community. Most of them don't even have version numbers! Imagine that! They are completed, played until the developers can't feel their legs so there are no major/obvious bugs, then released!

      --
      It's been a long time.
  50. One man, one vision by AtariKee · · Score: 1

    There was a time when video games were a one man process. You can read about one such programmer at the website that I maintain, The World Of Owen Rubin. Owen wrote a number of classic coin-operated arcade games while working at Atari and Sente.

    --
    "You're getting brutal, Sark. Brutal and needlessly sadistic."
    "Thank you, Master Control"
    -Sark and the MCP
  51. Pimpl by Latent+Heat · · Score: 1
    Didn't see pimpl in GoF, but yeah, I have found myself doing that kind of thing -- exposing a "handle" through a public interface that has meaning to those in the know. That pimpl could be a pointer, or it could be an object reference to a class you don't disclose.

    Funny thing that pimpl when you see, say the Eclipse SWT exposing an HWND or an HDC through a public member function that the docs strenuously warn you is for internal use only, aw shucks, it really is a Windows HDC, but don't you all starting calling it because I warned ya and yer app is gonna be non-portable.

    I am just waiting for Tablizer to jump in here and tells us that he has been warning us all along about this kind of thing, that objects don't probably divide up the world into natural classes and categories. Or perhaps we should all start using Dylan which has a funky way of binding functions to objects.

    But if encapsulation is all about "need to know", in spycraft, you sometimes have to conduct transactions across public interfaces and resort to stuff like dead drops. Heck, even the CIA needs a front gate. There was this dimestore satire titled "Oh Henry", popular long ago when Henry Kissinger was in the news, that had his alter ego as a nebbish superspy. They had this deal where the road in Langley, Virginia leading up to you-know-where had this billboards saying "This is NOT the road to the CIA" and "Where did you ever get the idea that the CIA was over here?", lampooning the idea of keeping such undocumented by published interfaces private.

    1. Re:Pimpl by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pardon me sir. Are you on drugs or something?

    2. Re:Pimpl by Latent+Heat · · Score: 1

      No, just been reading GoF (Johnson, Helms, Gamma, and Vlissides, Design Patterns), and it makes it seem that one's mind is under the influence of drugs.

  52. Oh yes! by Dodger73 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I think you're making it a little bit too easy on yourself. I've been in software development for, well, let's say a while now, starting with end-user applications over web-based and non-web based network applications to game development. Development of a 'profesional' game easily rivals large e-commerce applications as far as complexity is concerned.
    The reason?
    Far more diverse challenges from different areas of software development come to play. Network engineering, including bandwidth, server stability and scalability issues, performance of processing large amounts of data in an unimaginable amount of different ways, compression algorithms, design and architecture of APIs, use of often many different (often poorly documented) 3rd party APIs at a time, efficient use of dedicated video, audio and other hardware, strong knowledge of human audiovisual perception, asset management, database design, knowledge of several different programming languages, scripting, SQL, SOAP, development of tools and applications using MFC, .NET and whatnot, specifications of proprietary file formats, encryption and security, are just some of the subjects a single software engineer may have to work on in a single large scale game project.

    In addition to that, any software engineer working in one or more of graphics, animation, audio, tools, to name a few, will need to have good knowledge of how the modelling, animation, audio and texture artists go about creating assets, in order to be able to make asset integration into the systems they develop, work as smoothly as possible.
    Add about a teaspoon of multi-platform development (let's say, PC, XBOX, PS2, GameCube, sometimes Mac, for example).

    Combine that with tight deadlines (the game industry isn't infamous for crunchtime for no reason), publisher's big wigs constantly looking over your shoulder and asking 'is it ready yet?', and dealing with (and this is the result of some people not knowing what they're doing as you stated) poorly specified requirements, and with the fact that hardware and technology in game related fields is advancing faster than anywhere else.
    Stir frequently, and you have a recipe for the software development time of your life.

    To summarize, in my opinion, a software engineer working on large scale interactive entertainment projects has to be far more flexible, have a higher level of self-motivation to take on problems and acquire the necessary skills and knowledge to do so, and be more team oriented and communicative than developers in other fields of software engineering.

    We are not a bunch of kids hacking in hundreds of thousands of lines of spaghetti code without any consideration of software design and architecture principles, to release a game to make a quick buck. Those times are long gone.

    1. Re:Oh yes! by xihr · · Score: 1

      That was exactly my point. Game software engineering is just like any other software engineering. The tight deadlines that you mention are hardly limited to the game programming world either.

      Game software engineering is software engineering. Pretending like it's something more or less is silly.

    2. Re:Oh yes! by Dodger73 · · Score: 1

      No, of course tight deadlines are not limited to the game industry. However, in the game industry they tend to be noticeably tighter due to smaller team sizes (if we're talking 'normal' companies, not giants like EA) and more, more different, and more diverse tasks having to be taken on by the developers.

      And of course there is also the (quite normal) case of big publishers bullying small studios around, changing requirements and adding tasks during development. At any rate, working 17 and 18 hour days for weeks at a time is more of an exception in any other industry. It's almost a rule before every major milestone in the game industry.
      Also consider, that salary and benefits for developers in the game industry are usually considerably lower than in other fields. This has been alleviated somewhat by the dot bomb, but is still the case - compare average salaries between industries. Then compare the average perks across industries. You'll see what I mean.

      And this is not because software engineers in the game industry are in any way less professional, less talented, less engineers, less computer scientists, or less experienced than in any other software engineering field (if this was the case, it wouldn't be as difficult to get a foot into the game industry as a software engineer from another field). As I stated above, in my opinion, the opposite is the case, to an extent. There is still much more need for innovation, flexibility, and creativity in software engineers in the game industry than in any other software engineering field I know of. As someone else stated below, many, many things a game software engineer does during a single development cycle would be suitable for a Ph.d. thesis - that is no exaggeration. Research and developing new technology and techniques are an integral part.
      It is a common misconception, that the game industry consists of enthusiastic kids slapping code together and spending half of their days playing quake and having pizza parties at the office. Game companies trying to do that, will not make it through the first 6 months of their existence. Even if they manage to sign a publisher, they will be sued for breach of contract faster than they can say 'Papa John's' after their first couple of missed big milestones (which are, as a general rule, 4 to 8 weeks apart, similar to any other software project).

      The reason, the disparity between compensation and requirements/duties is possible, is, because everyone thinks working in the game industry is the coolest job in the world, and wants to get in. For every job opening, be it artist or engineer, there are likely to be high 2-figure to 3-figure numbers of applicants (depending on the profile of the company).
      And you know what? It is the coolest job in the world, or at least, from my perspective, the most interesting field I've ever worked in. If you can look past ridiculous crunchtime and the above mentioned flaws, like I said, you're in for the software engineering time of your life, also in a positive context.
      Why is that?
      Because the challenges posed by game projects are so many, and so diverse. I think anyone having worked on a game project, 'professional' or not, would probably agree with me on that. Not necessarily having to wear shoes at the office (depending on the company) is just a perk.
      Still, it is time for the big publishers to get reasonable. Even considering their expenses and risks in game projects, sacking in 95% or more of the pie is not reasonable. It is also time for the game companies to get reasonable, and think about their compensation packages. While there are game companies that provide comparably good salaries and benefits, the vast majority is still behind other industries. Profit sharing from royalties? Give me a break - heard that one too many times. It's likely not to happen, or to be marginal, unless you work for Blizzard or a similarly established company.


      For everyone thinking about getting into the game industry, let me say thi

  53. Sarcasm follows by harborpirate · · Score: 2, Insightful

    *Gasp!!* Destructable, interactive environments! Its a revelation! A miracle of modern programming!! All hail HL2!!

    ..end sarcasm..
    ..begin rant..

    Listen here whippersnapper, destructable environments are nothing new. Why, I remember, way back in... musta been ninteen hunderd and nintety four - when I played a game called XCOM. It displayed soldiers and aliens in an isometric format, and just about everything could be blown up. In fact, that was probably the thing that most contributed to how much fun that game was...
    I take you back in time, for this conversation when I was viewing the game for the first time:
    "They've got the door to the barn covered."
    "OK, well, lets just make our own door, with this handy grenade..."
    "What?"
    "Yeah, kaboom, instant door."

    ..end rant..
    ..sorta..

    Look, I know destructible, interactive environments in 3D games are new. (And no, the horrid piece of software called "Tresspasser" cannot be called a game, and thus does not count.) And I applaud game developers to finally getting around to it. But it isn't something that hasn't been done before. Added complexity, yes. A new age of 3D gaming? Perhaps. But I'd say a bigger advance was present in the first Half Life game - an AI that put up a decent challenge and displayed some level of realistic enemy behavior in a FPS.

    All that said, good luck to the HL2 guys. I really do hope they succeed. I look forward to the day when playing first person shooters involves some level of problem solving, rather than testing reflexes with the mouse and keyboard.

    --
    // harborpirate
    // Slashbots off the starboard bow!
    1. Re:Sarcasm follows by Clover_Kicker · · Score: 1

      I loved XCom, but the environment wasn't as interactive as it should have been.

      You could blow up the bottom floor of a building, and the upper stories would just hang there, floating in space.

      There were also some freaky bugs that would let you see (and sometimes fly!) thru walls.

    2. Re:Sarcasm follows by CaseyB · · Score: 1
      Listen here whippersnapper, destructable environments are nothing new. Why, I remember, way back in... musta been ninteen hunderd and nintety four

      Space Invaders had a "destructible environment" (the shields) in 1978.

    3. Re:Sarcasm follows by prockcore · · Score: 1

      Why, I remember, way back in... musta been ninteen hunderd and nintety four - when I played a game called XCOM. It displayed soldiers and aliens in an isometric format, and just about everything could be blown up.

      I'll see your 1994 and raise you 13 years. 1981, Castle Wolfenstein. It was 2d overhead map, but you could use grenades to blow up walls.

      You could also hold up the guards and steal their stuff.. then kill them.

    4. Re:Sarcasm follows by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      And the killing joke: the rewarmed version UFO Aftermath is a piece of shit in comparison. You can blow through some (some) fences and walls, and that's about it. Also, the fancy pants 3D engine looks like grey sludgy crap compared to the clean, clear fun isometrics of XCOM.

      Dear god, are we going backwards in game design?

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    5. Re:Sarcasm follows by marko123 · · Score: 1

      That would be System Shock 1. Get the CD version if you can. It was like walking through a seriously fucked up "Choose Your Own Adventure" sci-fi novel. (I mean that in a good way. Thank you SS1 for helping make second year uni the longest three years of my life)

      --
      http://pcblues.com - Digits and Wood
  54. I am here and what I want is over there. by Latent+Heat · · Score: 1
    Interface classes are great (all members declared virtual rtypr fn(argtype arg) = 0;) and it does solve the fragile header problem. And yes, you don't want very fine-grained, busy interfaces, not just for virtual functions but for the marshalling issues of distributed objects.

    But even with the best of intentions, best of Law of Demeter and making objects self contained, and the separation of controls into view and model, there is always an object over here that needs a value defined over there, and I just can't see how you can design systems without designing interfaces, coding to those interfaces, seeing how it works, and extending those interfaces until you feel ready to bury those interfaces in cement to make them available to a developer public.

  55. Open Source Middleware by KrackHouse · · Score: 1

    This is closer to reality than you might think. You have OGRE for graphics. OpenDE for physics. Once there is middleware that makes it a little bit easier for the two to interoperate, we'll see more titles using them. I'm currently working on an open source driving simulator that makes use of both. These open source engines are cross platform so they have been used in commercial titles as well as for open source projects.

    An interesting discussion is whether or not the middleware should be BSD, LGPL, GPL licensed or something else. The article brings up an interesting point though. In our case we could sure use a few more good C++ gurus. There is no shortage of good ideas. Check out our site and forums here if you have some time to kill and you like tough problems.

    --
    What if Digg added local news and a Slashdot inspired comment karma system? ---
    http://houndwire.com
  56. Reasons: Schedules, Competition, Hard Market by mbaranow · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The game I am working on right now is a week before Beta. I work for a medium sized publisher of console games. Take that as warning of my bias.

    I would add several reasons to why game development is hard. All the technical issues Mr. Blow mentions, can be fixed given enough time. But there is never enough time.

    To keep funding $10M+ game projects, a corporation needs to release a steady stream of games during major buying periods. This means, unless you're the likes of id or Valve, development cycles are 18 months, rarely negotiable. If you are late you will start loosing consumer awarness and marketing budgets. You also need to schedule time to do several demo disks and generate assets for the media. A senior programmer said that our primary target is management, and only later the gamer.

    Second, unlike many software markets, you constantly feel your competition at your heels. The graphics, realism, complexity is an arms race. This makes games better and it also makes developers stay at work extra longer past midnight to implement that extra rocket launcher effect to stand out from the competition.

    Then the market judges you on purely subjective measures. You can't lock yourself into a market like MS Office or Windows would. It doesn't even matter if you are technically the most advanced. As a game developer you are fighting for gamers attention. This is why you see games that are mostly sequels and based on established IP.

    Then again these challanges are the reason I'm a game developer. Mr.Blow does point out a good deal of inneficient practices in the industry.

    This should be seen as a call to arms for middle ware vendors and ISVs. Whenever there is a problem there is a buisness plan!

  57. Oh no! 30 minutes for a full build! by complexmath · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This article is very well-written, but it only serves as evidence that the game industry still ignores standard engineering practices. 30 minutes is nothing in terms of build time, especially with a C++ project. And there are some very simple ways to reduce build time that they could be practicing right from the start instead of refactoring halfway through. I'm surprised they didn't establish such practices after their first experience with such horrific development delays.

    I will agree that the cost of game developmetn is skyrocketing. The cost of developing an engine alone is more than many game houses can handle and things are not improving. It can't be too long before more third party suppliers spring up who do nothing but build game engines and design tools. In a way it's kind of silly that game houses still have to build most of their stuff from scratch.

  58. Its hard to make something new by zaunuz · · Score: 1

    Because the game industry has come this far, it is hard to make a game that isnt similar to another game. And if you make an original game, would it still be fun to play?

    Day of the Tentacle... oh. By far the most funny game i've ever played. What happended to these? Most of the adventure games in the 'point-and-click' genre are educational, so i wish someone will think back and see the potential of these games once again.

    --
    this is probably the most boring sig in the world
  59. Great! by Mikelikus · · Score: 2, Funny
    JONATHAN BLOW is a gaming development consultant who has been working in industry since 1995. Recent projects include Deus Ex 2 and Microsoft Train Simulator 2. Blow also writes a monthly column, "The Inner Product," for Game Developer magazine, focusing on cutting-edge technical issues in game development.
    Great, consulted two terrible games and now thinks his work is hard compared to JohnC creating Doom. *sigh*
    --
    -- Would it be acceptable to just put my name on my sig?
  60. a non-profit for open-source game software. by tigre · · Score: 1
    My current dream is to develop a non-profit organization whose goal is twofold:
    1. educating folks, especially the disadvantaged, with marketable programming skills in a fun manner by developing open-source game software
    2. providing the gaming industry, including indies, with well-developed open-source software that would hopefully raise the quality and lower the cost of developing games, benefiting both developers and players.

    Do you guys think this is feasible, and if so, how should I go about doing this? I'm probably not the most qualified person to head this up, but I do have passion for it, so if I could find more qualified folks, and find the right sort of grants, I think it may be feasible.

    Do you think any game companies would be interested in supporting such a venture, one so that we could train people they could hire, and two so they could use our products to speed their development cycles?

  61. here is a clue by geekoid · · Score: 1

    News to game companies:
    Calling API's isn't brain surgery.

    The 'eletist' attitude those that call themselves 'game programmers' is infuriating. They think there doind something special, and that there above every other type of programmer is hurting the game industry.

    I love when I'm talkoing to people in the game industry.

    first it's 30 minutes of moaning there 12 hour work day.
    then its talking about there 2 hour lunch, there games of quakes, and shooting nerf darts at each other. then they complain about deadlines, the fact that they have to fly an inconvient flight to some electronics game convention, and the fact that there manager is bugging them to do there work in the schedule that the programmer said it would be done.

    I bet you would worker fewer hours if you spent more time at work...working.

    Naturally there are exceptions. People who do the actual engineering, low level stuff, usually have less of an attitude about there work. maybe there just confident in there work.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    1. Re:here is a clue by Frobnicator · · Score: 4, Informative
      In reply to your "news to game companies", here is news for you:

      "They think they're doing something special, and that they're above every other type of programmer" [punctuation and spelling corrected]

      That's a common perception from those outside of the entertainment industry. There are those 'stars' in the game industry, just as there are in the movie industry, who really do think that. One of the plain facts is that modern games take a lot of intellectual work, much more than optimizing SQL queries, putting components on forms, or making two computers talk to each other. It's no different than how some professors look down at some software developers. While it does take skill to do it, you aren't really pushing every neuron in your brain to put out form-based apps or SQL-based systems.

      Regarding the amount of learning that has to take place:

      Of the programmers on my team, 4 (including myself) have masters degrees and two have bachelors degrees. Every week I find myself reading several papers from journals and conference proceedings. In contrast, two of my brothers are also programmers. One does POS software for a nationwide company, another works for a small company with photo processing software. Both have seen the things I do at work, and I've seen theirs. Both have told me that they couldn't handle my job, but I know I could do either of theirs. One of them has had to read a few journals and articles, the other hasn't read any since he earned his bachelors degree almost a decade ago. One of them works with mostly BS degree or no degree, the other works with entirely BS degree and one MS degree people. As for me, I've thought about going back and getting another bachelors degree in math just to review some of the advanced topics.

      Neither of my brothers, both competent programmers, can understand the math it takes in writing game graphics engines. Do you understand the math involved in manipulating manifold surfaces, or self-shadowing techniques? Perhaps you can explain to the crowd how to make a 3D model look like it is breathing? Or maybe implement a system to give models joints at hips, knees, ankles, and toes, and make them realistically move, jump, walk, crawl, or stand still, based only on a direction and speed? How about converting between 4x4 matrix form, and Euler angles, and quats? Can you even understand a number that has 1 real part and 3 imaginary numbers, [w, xi, yj, zk], and has no real-world analogue? How about pathfinding; Since you play games, can you explain or implement 3 of the pathfinding techniques you've seen? Maybe machine learning is your forte; Can you implement at least 2 machine learning methods, such as RBF networks or backprop neural networks? [Incidentally, while seldom used, both work well in games since there is practically no cost to use them.] How about cheat-resistant networking; Do you know how to tell the difference between a forged packet and a regular one? How about how to properly get around a NAT device? Since TCP is too slow, do you know how to deal with out-of-order UDP data? Or keep clients in sync when they are missing critical information? I've only met a few non-game programmers who could do all of these, but EVERY PERSON ON MY TEAM knows how to do ALL these. But even then, I can still do most of the things you probably do as a programmer. I frequently help my brothers out when we talk about difficult issues they are fighting in their own projects.

      "first it's 30 minutes of moaning there 12 hour work day. then its talking about there 2 hour lunch, there games of quakes, and shooting nerf darts at each other. then they complain about deadlines, the fact that they have to fly an inconvient flight to some electronics game convention, and the fact that there manager is bugging them to do there work in the schedule that the programmer said it would be done."

      Again, in comparison with my brothers. In their environments, they plan

      --
      //TODO: Think of witty sig statement
    2. Re:here is a clue by notamac · · Score: 1

      News to game companies:
      Calling API's isn't brain surgery.

      Now come on just a second here... do you really really think that a graphics engine such as Half-Life 2 or Doom 3 is "just a bunch of API calls"...

      Get a clue, and get a dictionary.

    3. Re:here is a clue by Danny+Rathjens · · Score: 1
      "bugging them to do there work in the schedule that the programmer said it would be done". [Terrible grammer, by the way.]

      We should have a name for the phenomenon of making a spelling or grammatical mistake while in the act of whining about someone else's grammar or spelling, ;)
      Or we could just call someone that does it a "pro-grammer", 8^)

      As for the whole 'we do matrix arithmetic and other "hard" stuff therefore game programming is harder than regular programming'; I suspect that is a bunch of hogwash.
      It's just a matter of specialization in a particular field, or even of inclination considering that some of us lowly non-game programmers actually studied or majored in math, applied math, and physics in school. I'd probably be more lost trying to be a programmer in the financial or drug research industries since I don't happen to already have most of that specialized knowledge already.

      Plus, even if lots of folks are doing simple sql joins, there are also some folks doing the phd level work in query optimization engines. The same probably holds in the gaming industry where a bunch of folks are coding yet another level editor or copying graphics algorithms from elsewhere and just a few guys are working on new dynamic path-finding algorithms based on player behaviour.

    4. Re:here is a clue by Frobnicator · · Score: 2, Insightful
      First, let me say I agree with you. In every industry there are people who do mostly grunt work, and there are people who do PhD level work. That's not the point I was trying to get across.

      I cannot deny that many programmers have multiple specialties. I have worked in shops that do SQL all day, and presentation software, and remote sensing, and scientific computing, as well as the game industry. I've worked with programmers that range from high-school dropouts to PhD earners. I believe I've seen most of the full range.

      As for the whole 'we do matrix arithmetic and other "hard" stuff therefore game programming is harder than regular programming'; I suspect that is a bunch of hogwash. It's just a matter of specialization in a particular field

      That's where I disagree with you. It is not just a matter of being more specialized. I believe there is a completely different, almost fundamentally different, degree of difficulty and requirements for game developers.

      I'll go through the places I'm comparing it against. Feel free to disagree about any of them, but I feel that each is fairly typical of programming environments.

      When I was working with SQL on POS, there were 7 of the about 35 programmers there who were the SQL and communications experts. They could literally do anything that anybody else was doing. The remaining 80% of the programmers were just doing grunt-work, basically commodity programmers. Yes, people had specialties, but they weren't really used. There were approximate deadlines, but they were very soft.

      Next, I worked with presentation software, specifically it was interactive polling in focus groups and larger corporate meetings. The owners were all psychologists that ran these corporate meetings. The owners stated exactly what the presentation software required for their industry, had contracts with keypad vendors that basically gave us serial-port input, and all we had to do was tabulate the results, record them, and stick them into graphs. Nobody on the group was required to do anything spectacular that a college grad with 3-5 years of general programming experience could not do. Additionally, there were approximate deadlines, but they didn't really care as long as some specific feature was in place before some specific presentation -- these were known months in advance.

      Moving up to remote sensing hardware, people were starting to specialize. There were the hardware folk, many of them were highly specialized. That's partly because the company owners were two university professors who had some good ideas, and started a business with their best grad students. Everybody at the company was expert in mathematics, and had at least a BS. About half of the company had MS degrees or higher, and the only people without a BS were the interns -- they were still in college. In addition to lots of math, about half the people were quite good in one or more other areas. I know this is not the typical company, but it may be typical of your experience; in which case it does seem that everybody has several expert areas. Again, there was no real hard deadline, customers were mostly governments and they only cared about it being done within a certain fiscal year.

      In my job with scientific computing, multiple specializations was almost required. At a minimum, you needed to understand all the nuance of floating point numbers, and how they are different from real-world values, and when that it a problem. There, I spent most of my time dealing with compatibility and networking issues. But I also had a lot of time in spatial partitioning and distributed computing. Most co-workers were also working on three or more complex issues. From my experience, I know that most of the programmers from the SQL/POS shop couldn't jump into those roles, and only one other person from the presentations software could have made that transition. Most of the people who worked with me at the remote sensing job could probably have made it though, a

      --
      //TODO: Think of witty sig statement
    5. Re:here is a clue by Danny+Rathjens · · Score: 1

      O.K. I'll take a different approach. Considering your ability to accurately judge the competence levels of everyone you've ever worked with(giving you the benefit of doubt), you are likely in the top 2% yourself.
      Could it be possible you are in the top 2% of game programmers as well?
      Is it possible that there are hordes of other game programmers out there writing yet another graphics loader for pre-rendered graphics for yet another "adventure" game or simply re-implementing the tried and true algorithms? I'll admit that what you do may be hard for a lot of programmers(well, not the criticizing games or inter-departmental squabbling bits, :). But is what you do really representitive of what all game programmers do?

    6. Re:here is a clue by Frobnicator · · Score: 1
      Considering your ability to accurately judge the competence levels of everyone you've ever worked with(giving you the benefit of doubt),
      Thank you. I didn't think about that aspect, but I feel I am a fairly good judge of skills after working with people for a while. In all my past jobs, the managers at every company I've worked with have identified me as a sort of 'programmer barometer', most of them have had me meet with middle-management when discussing how to divide tasks.
      Could it be possible you are in the top % of game programmers as well? Is it possible that there are hordes of other game programmers out there writing yet another graphics loader for pre-rendered graphics for yet another "adventure" game or simply re-implementing the tried and true algorithms? But is what you do really representitive of what all game programmers do?
      Those are all great questions.

      In order, yes, but since my co-workers are as qualified or more, it's possible that my entire shop is filled with the top developers, and it's possible that there are a bunch of other shops full of regular programmer joes. I don't believe it's the case, but it's possible.

      As for the third question, since I'm at work now, I've just taken a straw poll.

      The consensus is that this place is typical of other studios that people have worked at, and that the people who don't have multiple specialties or are able to quickly become expert in a few areas within a year usually end up leaving on their own.

      Again, I'll repeat the challenge of the original paper, and of my earlier posts. This is a difficult but fun area. If you are interested, come in.

      Write a simple game on your own, something a one-man shop could do. Write another pac-man clone, or space invaders, or asteroids. Polish it with title screens showing points and credits, and make it look like something from an 80's arcade. Here's your checklist, you should be able to do all of this in a demo to show a reasonable depth of knowledge: Interactive speed, reasonable graphics (we know you aren't an artist), sound, some simple AI, some simple levels, simple game states, crash and error-free, and well-polished. Do it very well -- have friends play it, and polish it some more.

      If you can do that much, and still want to do more, then you're probably cut out for the industry. Writing a full (but simple) game, fully polished, means you have at least a functional understanding of what's involved, along with enough fortitude to get something finished. Bring with it one other area of competence (from your work history), and a general desire for writing games. Be prepared to explain at least one game in depth -- able to discuss how they implemented their graphics, levels, AI, storyline, and general gameplay, or anything else, and what they did wrong and right. Finally, be prepared for a one or two day coding sample. Do all that, and you will quickly get a job. Once you're in, you'll feel like an intern -- spending six months to a year getting expert in several different areas, in addition to regular work.

      But be warned, [as the article states] it's a lot harder than it looks/sounds.

      frob

      --
      //TODO: Think of witty sig statement
    7. Re:here is a clue by tcopeland · · Score: 1

      > Write a simple game on your own,
      > something a one-man shop could do.
      > Write another pac-man clone, or space
      > invaders, or asteroids. Polish it with
      > title screens showing points and credits,
      > and make it look like something from
      > an 80's arcade.

      So true. This gave me an appreciation for how hard this stuff is. Just getting collision detection working in a Brickout clone was enough to send me back to my college math books, relearning basic trigonometry.

      And reading books like "Game Programming Gems" gave me an appreciation for the same sort of thing. It's not just that there's an article on A*, it's that the first paragraph of the article summarizes A* and references three or four papers which have been written about various A* optimizations. Crikey.

  62. I know it's nothing new per se... by Phil+John · · Score: 1

    ...but as you point out, yes in fps games it is something novel.

    That's what I was trying to get at with my point. And oh yes, xcom rule(s|d) (until I lost my copy a few moves ago).

    From looking at the hl2 video it does indeed require some lateral thinking and proper problem solving (something that has been sorely missing from 99.9% of the titles released in the last 5 years).

    Some say Romero and Carmack revolutionised gaming with the likes of wolfenstein 3d and doom but i think they actually set it back 10 years and only now is the damage they did being undone.

    --
    I am NaN
  63. Rapid inflation is the cause. by OOPisForLiberals · · Score: 5, Informative
    Preface : I'm a programmer in the industry who has worked on 'cutting edge' titles for the entirety of my career. I started in 1997.

    That's only 7 years. In the 7 years I've been in the business, I've become a certifiable 'old man'. That may sound nutty, but our industry moves so fast, it's perfectly sane. An in that 7 years, things have shifted massively.

    When I first started, I worked on a project with a budget of about 2.5-3 million $. At the time, that was considered a pretty large amount. Our team was about 20 people, mostly rookies of 1 year (or less) experience, with 5-6 'old salt' types. This was a PC title at the very earliest edge of 3d acceleration. The voodoo 1 was barely out there. Use of floating point 3d math was finally starting to be possible. Our target for 'great sales'? 200,000. If we sold 100,000 it would be considered 'good'. 200,000 would be fantabulous. 300,000 and up would be massive wild success.

    50 million. The average game that gets greenlit these days has a budget of 12 million or more. When you pitch a AAA title to a publisher the magic number is '1 million units'. This is of course an insane number that no one realistically expects to hit (especially the poor developers themselves). But the expectation of the top-end people is 'if we don't realistically think this can sell 1 million units, why are we considering it'?

    You know what -hasn't- changed in this time? Selling prices. Games still retail for $40-50.

    Yet budgets have quadrupled or worse. Technology has leaped forward by a LEAST 10x in capabilities. We went from the Voodoo 1 (cool! hardware rasterizing!) to the Voodoo 2 (awesome! really -fast- hardware rasterizing with multitexturing!) to the TNT (WOO! Even -faster- hardware rasterizing with multitexturing!) to the Geforce (Yay, no we've got T&L) to the Geforce 2 (Hmm, T&L plus a complex layer of vertex shaders) to the postmodern Geforce 4+ cards (ummm, dang, 4+ versions of pixel shaders now with a dump truck full of crazy, complex techniques which all the artists and designers and producers all have a hardon over). Ah, we've also got 20x the memory available and 30x the processor power. Can't ship anything without an ultramodern physics engine, or an endless streaming arbitrary polygon-soup world now can we?

    And to top it all off, the trend in actual sales is : instead of a largish array of semi-successful to successful games, we now have a huge bundle of big-but-unsuccessful games and a small handful of monster selling uber titles. With very very very little in between.

    Publishers now aren't willing to commit to something unless they think it'll sell a gajillion units. But of course, selling a gajillion units means having lots and lots and lots of risky and expensive features. So doing these big payoff games is a big gamble.

    This 'Inflationary Period' (to borrow a term from cosmology) has resulted in a radically different landscape. Programmers balk (for good reason) at the design requirements necessary to make a competitive game. I have the privelege of working with some very smart people even 'older' than I am. One of them once said to me : 'Practically everything we do is worthy of a PH.d thesis'. And he is right. You can't -not- push the already ludicrous technology barrier with a new title, otherwise you'll be putting forward a design with limited sales appeal.

    It's an ugly ugly situation. Where I work, we are to this very day struggling with coming up with a design for our next project (one of several) that will satisfy these myriad goals. Everyone is so incredibly smart and dedicated, but it seems to me that we're very fast approaching some sort of upper-bound on complexity.

    I don't know where it is going to end, but at the moment, you can be damn sure that the days of the garage-developer are over. Technology has accelerated too fast.

    1. Re:Rapid inflation is the cause. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      kinda confused... so you sold 50 million copies or you spent 50 million in budget??

      I'm considering getting into the gaming industry? Any tips on getting my feet wet?

    2. Re:Rapid inflation is the cause. by OOPisForLiberals · · Score: 5, Informative
      Sorry about that. I messed up on the submit/preview button :)

      What I meant to say was :

      Fast forward 7 years. You've got Squaresoft shipping titles with 200+ people on it. Multiple super-games with budgets as high as [50 million].

      Was just pointing out the extremes to which we've seen (Shenmue, the various Final Fantasies, etc).

      As far as getting into the industry, the short version of my usual screed:

      - Be sure you love to program (I'm assuming you're a programmer). This being Slashdot, I'm sure this isn't an issue. There is a lot of hard work involved, not all of which is particularly glamorous or exciting. Be prepared to work very hard early on to earn your stripes.

      - Don't get into it to make money. While it is certainly possible to make significant money via bonuses and royalties, chances are you won't in any significant way. You will probably start at a lower salary than your non game industry peers, but if you're good, this will rapidly change. However, good salary != massive bonuses.

      - In terms of nuts-and-bolts : put together a demo. A real demo. Not necessarily some cookie cutter gee-whiz graphics demo that anyone with ctrl-C/ctrl-V can do. I cannot tell you how boring and uninformative it is for someone to come in with 'Hey, check out my kewl graphics demo!' Unless you're the 2nd coming of Carmack, you're not gonna start as the Graphics Guy for your company (and if you -do-, you should be incredibly suspicious about the competency of those who hired you). Pac-man. Space invaders. Defender. Something original but simple. Basically, something that shows you can see a project throught from start to finish. That's truly impressive.

      - Philosophies : I don't care how many Linux distros you're familiary with or how many Slashdot-approved technophenomena du jours you know - know your C and your basic machine-level basics. Be familiar with all the essential 3d math concepts. For God's sake, know the difference between a dot product and a cross product. Be prepared to abandon cherished modern concepts about OOP and dynamic memory usage. In other words : don't be a Slashdot zealot :)

      - Dedication to games. The running joke in the industry is "Oh, you get paid to play games all day!". Of course this is the furthest thing from the truth. It's hard and has plenty of grueling episodes. Be prepared to occasionally commit 80+ hour weeks for 3+ months for the real humdingers. Game developement is for better or worse, a way of life, not a job (at least until you hit the upper echelons in your 30's :)

    3. Re:Rapid inflation is the cause. by krumms · · Score: 1

      Development houses are the ones giving the publishers power. I'm sure you'll agree, most contractual agreements between publishers and developers are fucked up in that the developers - the ones that MAKE the game - get screwed.

      Unless you're relying on the publisher for funding (which may or may not be the case), why not publish over the Internet? I don't mean offering a download-only service - there's nothing stopping you from shipping CDs to customers. I'd see nothing wrong with a CD-only service if bandwidth is an issue. I think the potential is huge.

      I can't take credit for this idea, as it was the theory that a lecturer of mine once preached (he was a former Beamer I think).

      The biggest problem I can think of is that kids can't walk up to the checkout and hand over the dough: it's credit cards (which most under 18s don't have access to anyway), cheques or direct deposit. This may or may not limit your market - I dunno, I haven't done the research.

      Still, I think the game development industry could really change the current shitty situation with a big effort.

      If a few big houses would have the courage to tell the publishing houses to fuck off and go alone, maybe things will change.

      Until then, you'll all continue to get fucked over.

    4. Re:Rapid inflation is the cause. by cliffski2 · · Score: 1

      Im so bored with people telling me garage days are over. I also work for a big game developer, and as a hobby i have my own shareware games selling quite nicely that I did years ago. Starship Tycoon For example, earned me about $900 this month. Thats not gonna rival Everquest, but don't tell me that indie games don't sell, because last month I bought a brand new car out of my shareware money.
      Positech Games

    5. Re:Rapid inflation is the cause. by samael · · Score: 1

      Pretty much all development houses are dependent on publishers for their funding. ID aren't, 3DRealms aren't, and that's about it.

    6. Re:Rapid inflation is the cause. by ztwilight · · Score: 1
      It's an ugly ugly situation. Where I work, we are to this very day struggling with coming up with a design for our next project (one of several) that will satisfy these myriad goals. Everyone is so incredibly smart and dedicated, but it seems to me that we're very fast approaching some sort of upper-bound on complexity. I don't know where it is going to end, but at the moment, you can be damn sure that the days of the garage-developer are over. Technology has accelerated too fast.

      My, but you HAVE been living in a cave. In the meantime, much less experienced, slow and laid-back (but wiser) programmers have switched jobs to other fields of programming (such as Enterprise, to name a broad market which is very lucrative from all ends) and retired early with several hundred million. Believe me, I know, they live right down the street. Sorry to have to tell you this, but all of your hard work doesn't pay as well as the rest of the industry. That's perhaps because too many programmers just want to work on "fun" projects, like, say, games.

      --
      Who moved my sig?
    7. Re:Rapid inflation is the cause. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Geforce 2 doesn't have vertex shaders.

    8. Re:Rapid inflation is the cause. by OOPisForLiberals · · Score: 1
      What you're saying is certainly true. But my comment is meant in the context of AAA titles as a business. Most people want to get into games so that they can work on the next great title. It used to be that 5-10 guys could put together some capital, put together a prototype for a cool game, pitch it to a publisher, and then finish it for $1 million. With success (which was far more predictable in the past), you instantly went from a miniature startup, to a small but competitive Name.

      The idea is that the days of the small bulldog developer with the next big idea are sort of over. Sure, you may get the occasional anomaly (Bf1942 comes to mind) but in general it's not really a viable business plan anymore. 5 guys don't even make up an animation department anymore. Much less programming + animation + modelling + design + all the sub-disciplines within them.

    9. Re:Rapid inflation is the cause. by frekio · · Score: 1

      I notice your nickname is OOPIsForLiberals, and you say "Be prepared to abandon cherished modern concepts about OOP and dynamic memory usage". Can you please explain that? (As a programmer) I'm curious how it fits into game programming, and what you mean. Less OOP for less code? Can you please explain?

  64. Fun Games Don't Need a Mega-Budget by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Check out this game... www.kingdomofloathing.com
    It's made with PHP, crappy black and white stickman graphics, and a warped sense of humour.

    Probably took a while to make but certainly didn't need a blockbuster budget.

    This game is easily as much fun as half the crap filling the shelves of stores today.

  65. Too narrow a definition of story by Jerf · · Score: 2, Interesting

    All games absolutely must have a story... for the right definition of "story".

    Most people interpret "story" to mean "plot", but the two are not the same. A story, broadly speaking, is "setup, conflict, development, resolution", but writing a plot line, with set characters and dialog is only one way to get a "story".

    Tetris has a "story". The set up is the rules. The conflict is that the game is throwing blocks at you, but you don't want blocks on the field. The development is the game play, and in Tetris's case, the eventual resolution is typically that you fail, but you get some kind of score. (There are varients that play to a finite point which you can "win", but when most people think Tetris they think of the varient where you play until you fill the screen.)

    Games with no "story" exist, but are typically rare. You can recognize them because they will typically look like "tech demos", or you'll think of them as "incomplete", even if they have all the technological pieces in place. Imagine an RPG engine that works perfectly, but you're confined to one town and absolutely everybody is friendly and all you can do is talk to them, except this one fight with a rat on the edge of town. The engine is (for the sake of argument), perfectly done, but there's no story.

    You can similarly imagine a side-scrolling shooter where the game just goes on and on, but no bosses, no increasing difficulty, just monotonous onslaughts of homogenous enemies. I remember playing these on the C64... briefly. For better or for worse, the now-standard "boss" system does at least provide a story. Even the "level" system provides story; the exact same game as the classic 2D space shooter Galaxian, but without level delinations, would be a lot less compelling.

    Lots of things must have a story like this, but not necessarily a "plot line" and "characters". A presentation should always tell a story: "Our project was this (setup), our problems with it were this (setup), we handled it this way (development), and this was the result (resolution)." (I strongly disagree with people who say to put the result first; you lose the interest of the crowd and they'll have a superficial understanding of the result. If you result is at all complex and you really want your crowd to understand the result, you must take them through the whole story before they can appreciate this.)

    Doom has a story, but the "plotline" it has is entirely incidental. Doom's story is on a per-level basis: "[Rules of the Doom game] (setup), there are monsters blocking my path (conflict), the combat (development), I got to the end of the level and prevailed (resolution)." There is an over-arching story in the boss battle but it's quite diffuse compared to the level-by-level story, as evidenced by the fact you can basically pick it up and play any level you want without playing the ones before it.

    All games must have stories. Plot lines are one way, but not the only want and generally not even a good way, for this to occur. Generally the engine itself must provide the story, or the user will feel they are just watching a movie.

    (Think about this and apply it to games you've played before dismissing this; this is really a surprisingly interesting field. It seems that the general story pattern of setup, conflict, development, resolution is buried deep in our psyches since it is so important in so many artistic or creative endeavors, from games to literature to presentations to music to a whole lot of other things. Heck, even software tutorials should have a story. People who understand this and apply it have a distinct advantage over those who don't.)

    1. Re:Too narrow a definition of story by Lonath · · Score: 1

      Most people interpret "story" to mean "plot", but the two are not the same. A story, broadly speaking, is "setup, conflict, development, resolution", but writing a plot line, with set characters and dialog is only one way to get a "story".

      I define "story" as the meaning you give to events. I believe we are trained to give meaning to events as stories so we can tell other people about them, and so we can understand them when other people tell us about them.

  66. Re:Oh no! 30 minutes for a full build! by baxissimo · · Score: 1

    It can't be too long before more third party suppliers spring up who do nothing but build game engines and design tools.

    There already are quite a few 3rd party engines from tools only companies. I'm not sure why Mr. Blow only mentioned the Quake and Unreal engines. There are other engines like
    NetImmerse (or I guess it's called "Gamebryo" now), and, well, there are more links here. Go see for yourself.

    I think The Unreal and Quake engines are actually some of the most expensive you can buy. From what I understand, you pay a premium for these engines because there's marketing value in being able to associate yourself with greatness by advertising "Built on the Unreal Engine". Whereas "Built on the LithTech engine" isn't going to impress anyone. So you pay a lot for those engines, when in fact, it's sort of akin to movies that advertise "From the producer of 'some good movie'". It's just not a very good predictor of whether it will or will not be a good movie.

  67. most game firms don't use the best tools by asapien · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There are a few game firms using tools such as SDL and pygame, but not enough, not even open gl. But look at a tool like blender, though the latest version doesn't have a realtime engine yet, they still have older versions with the realtime engine and the standalone player works well with the lastest machines, so using blender 2.25 for free one can develop game logic with "logic bricks" or you can code python, but you never have to use c++, and you can create 3d games for all the major platforms without having to use c++. But for c++ users, there's libSDL, which gives you a cross platform games library with opengl extensions as well. Pygame gives you access to the same library, but with python. However you can use distutils under windows to generate a windows exe which you can use the python installer builder to create a regular windows installer, as well as mac os x and linux and *bsd. Java is another tool that doesn't get mentioned. Its becoming a very important tool for wireless phone and pda game development. SDL is the number one game aid that gets overlooked, also the market for "microgames", some of the most popular games of all time have still been seemingly simple, but hiding complexity, like tetris.

    1. Re:most game firms don't use the best tools by notamac · · Score: 1

      Possibly the reason that SDL doesn't get mentioned is because initialising windows and collecting OS events typically takes .1% of code in a project, and its usually not many days work to whip up the equivalent on whatever platform you're targetting.

    2. Re:most game firms don't use the best tools by abandonment · · Score: 2, Informative

      or you could use one of the many game creation tools out there that let you create entire games without programming if you really want to. these days it does cut it complaining that you can't make a game because you don't know programming. you just haven't looked hard enough yet ;}

  68. Re:Oh come off yourself. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's easy to be jaded by the spoon, having known it all your life. But that doesn't make you clever, sophisticated, or witty.

    Karma Whore.

  69. Paragraphless in full, too... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeesh. Somebody buy this guy an Enter key.

    -A. Coward

  70. VC++ best compiler? by Clipper · · Score: 1

    Even so, Visual C++ is the best compiler we have on PCs--with no competitive alternatives--so we're just sort of along for the ride.

    Did I miss something, or did Borland, Intel and RMS all just stop making compilers? These are all competitive alternatives if I'm not mistaken.

    --
    /<en
  71. BG2 / NWN by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1
    Story seperates Baldurs Gate 2, a masterpiece, from the gorgeous but hollow Neverwinter Nights.

    That is soooo true. I loved BG2. I have NWN installed on my PC at the moment, and got most of the way through to what I assume is the end of the first chapter. I haven't played it in several weeks now, though, and have bought two new games in the interim. BG2 didn't have the same snazzy 3D rendering engine, but it had two things so many games lack: playability and storyline. And for that, I played it for hours and hours, twice through, and may yet play it again to see a different selection of the sub-plots.

    Of course, BG2 and NWN are both RPGs, where storyline matters a lot more. One of those new things was Quake III Gold, which I finally got around to buying now my system is up to playing the games. Plot: zero. Playability: a good 8/10, IMHO. Sometimes story just doesn't matter.

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    1. Re:BG2 / NWN by Xoid629 · · Score: 1

      A little off topic, but... If you haven't tried them, the NWN expansions and some of the user made modules are worth looking at. They're not necessarily up to BG standards, but much better than the original NWN campaign.

  72. Re:Oh no! 30 minutes for a full build! by TwoBit · · Score: 1

    And how do you know that they aren't already using these "very simple" ways to reduce build time? Don't you think that they might in fact be very interested in reducing build times?

    As for third party suppliers springing up who do nothing but build game engines, such things exist and if you want your game to look just like everybody else's game, then I suggest you buy from one of these companies. Another reason game houses often build things from scratch is that they want/need to wring every bit of performance out of crappy machines like the PS2 that they can, and generic systems written to work for everybody just can't do that.

  73. I have to laugh... by spagthorpe · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "that we have a perpetual shortage of qualified people in the industry."

    This is funny. A few years ago, after working on successful but boring software projects for the past ten years, I decided that I wanted to work in the game industry. I have no debt, and was willing to take a pay cut. I live in San Diego, home of a number of game companies, EA, Sony, etc. I figured it wouldn't be too difficult to get myself at least an entry level position with 10-years experience, just to learn the ropes. Nobody seemed willing to hire someone that didn't have several previously delivered games under their belt, despite a number of other successful consumer products and happy customers. I had sent resumes to all the companies in the area, as well as working briefly with a "game headhunter" which didn't work out as well. After roughly six months of trying, I gave up, and went back to working on my boring jobs. I'm guessing that the writer of the above quote isn't all that tied into the needs of the industry.

    --

    WWJD -- What Would Jimi Do?
    (Smash amp, burn guitar, take home the groupies)

  74. NOT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't know how to break it to you, but you are living in a dimension of pure fantasy.

    The "very comprehensive design document" system is very similar to the waterfall methogology of the software developement. And if you have any clue, you know how well that worked out.

    Until game design is understood much better than it is now, iterative design will be the only way to go.

    Idiot.

  75. Art scales, programming doesnt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    The problem isnt that there arent enough programmers, it's simply that you need the best ... with artists you can make do with less talented one, since they can simply spend more time on their assignments while you hire more of them to do the work of the single better artist. With programming this doesnt work.

    1. Re:Art scales, programming doesnt by pommiekiwifruit · · Score: 1
      The problem isnt that there arent enough programmers, it's simply that you need the best ... with artists you can make do with less talented one, since they can simply spend more time on their assignments while you hire more of them to do the work of the single better artist. With programming this doesnt work.

      I can agree a little bit with that; although it is nicer to have genius-artists, you can get by with merely good artists if you have strong wise management (a rare commodity in games companies). Probably a good asset-management system helps too. Unfortunately with poor coders you have to take time away from the good ones to fix all the bad stuff, which might take longer than if the good ones had written it in the first place.

      For open-source of course the situation seems to be different - there seems to be a dramatic shortage of free artists compared to free programmers.

  76. Meh-CSI:Time killer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "The best application of 2D is in puzzle games which are ginormous. The hardest part is comming up with the new puzzle concept. Programming them is rediculously easy and they're cheap. Which makes it more likely people will buy them as time killers at work to replace solitaire and minesweeper.
    "

    Hmmm, maybe we can develop a time waster called Slashdot.

  77. Character modelling in Blender by ReyTFox · · Score: 1

    I'm a n00b with Blender. After about three tries that failed right at the start I've been making good progress on a humanoid character; a high-poly one(I'm doing a game with pre-rendered sprites), but nonetheless a pretty good one.

    There are plenty of tuts that point you in the right direction, but mine basically involved starting with a torso outline, then extruding/rescaling and repeating until the outline of the full torso's made. Once you have the outline, you chop off half of the character so that you only need to deal with one side, and then start adding detail and the additional appendages. With subdivision surfaces and decent anatomy knowledge you can get a fantastic-looking result with only a few hours' work.

    Strangely enough, I've had more difficulty in making spaceships than on this character.

  78. wake up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
    Great, consulted two terrible games and now thinks his work is hard compared to JohnC creating Doom. *sigh*

    Blow was problably called into to rescue fucked up projects. And Carmack is good, but he's not worthy of such worship. If you've read Blow's columns (which I doubt) you'd know that he's pretty sharp.

    retard fan boy.

  79. wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Someone with a clue (in fact, more than one). And I thought slashdot was totally filled with retarded fanboy wannabees.

  80. wise man say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is possible to compete without being competitve...

  81. My thoughts... by Shaheen · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I work in the industry. You can read some of my earlier slashdot posts to see where exactly I work.

    Games are very complex pieces of software these days for sure. Graphics, audio, networking, even UI is a big deal. Just getting something working is only the beginning. Then comes the real work in making your game engines perform such that you are hitting your framerates in every area of the game.

    It used to be if your main loop was hitting your framerate, you were done. This is because you did all of your I/O up front (the loading screen). Your user input was always polled each frame, so unnecessary state changes that could possibly disrupt your performance were minimal. Largely it was your graphics theory knowledge that made or break your engine.

    Nowadays it is becoming more non-deterministic due to other forms of disruptive state changes. Graphics have become more complex and networking creates state changes that often don't happen within one frame (e.g. picking up an item in Quake 3 requires the server to acknowledge this).

    People complain about why studios ask for at least 5 years of experience and on top of that ask for prior experience with a particular console. Getting something working fast isn't the goal. It's getting it working correctly.

    How relationships with publishers changes priorities is an entirely different discussion, however...

    --
    You should never take life too seriously - You'll never get out of it alive.
  82. Fucking wah! by shplorb · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    Ok, I'm new in the industry - approaching 6 months - so my opinion probably doesn't count much.

    To me, this guy is a whining little bitch. What the hell is a "Gaming Development Consultant" anyway? Just look at how overly-complex those spaghetti diagrams are!

    The company that I work at is apparently rather advanced in our development methodology and stuff compared to other companies. Quite simply, everything we do in our process of development just makes sense to me - I don't know how anyone couldn't do it the way we do it.

    1/2 an hour to do a build? So? I only have to do a clean build maybe once a week at the most (and that's usually because VC starts playing silly buggers with dependencies and stuff), unless I'm working on a core component of the engine - like the string or array classes - but they shouldn't need to be touched once their written. Yes, you have to build and test your code on all the target platforms before comitting - but come on - you don't have to do a clean build for that! You can compile for PC and Xbox on your workstation while a build server or your tool does the PS2 one.

    Modularising your code is key, develop re-usable components. This is what's preached in software engineering and it applies just as much to games. Profiling is not hard either - build profiling functionality into your code and use that in combination with external tools like the PS2 PA.

    Yeah, games are hard because they're always on the cutting edge and evolving, but use some common sense when laying down your initial engine and component designs and it should all be pretty easy to manage as long as everyone knows what the score is. Communication is vital.

    That there's not enough programmers and too many designers/artists is bullshit too, well, only if you're using a pre-built engine. Games are content-centric now... you need way more artists and designers than coders these days. Having a good workflow for them is essential in order for them to be productive. This entails writing plugins for apps like 3dsmax and photoshop to convert to the interal formats, and to have a quick and easy way to get the content into the game and tweak it. This is another area where the company I work at excels in.

    If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Enough of this crap, I'm going outside for a walk.

  83. Style vs. Substance by patternjuggler · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Every year or so I buy a game that consists of 90% 3D fluff

    The game industry looks like the equivalant of the comic book industry in the eary 90s, lots of eye-candy, gimmick covers, etc and little substance.

    I think the way this works is this: there's three types of games- those with fluff, those with substance, and those with fluff and substance (and gradients inbetween of course). Substance, by itself, does not sell.

    The thing about substance or gameplay is that it requires a certain amount of attention that cannot be extracted from an audience until they have bought the product and invested some amount of minutes or hours into it. The sure-fire way to get that investment is to attract the eye- visuals can transmit much more information about something much faster than sound or text, so discerning quality of visuals is easy for nearly anyone. There is no shorthand to communicate gameplay other than simply playing the game, though screenshots and videos and short text descriptions may at least indicate what is to be expected.

    If I'm going to play a crappy game, I'd rather play a crappy game that looks good than the alternative- and the same goes for other visual media.

    An addition to that last statement is that there are a lot of people for which style is substance. The obvious ones are artists, or people with ambitions in that direction or simply an appreciation for it- playing something with really cool level and character design and etc. is the main thing while the story and interface should drive it along- if they're really good, that's a great bonus. Bad story isn't really a showstopper, but bad interface is - so I don't mind seeing the 'cookie cutter' approach get used there because I'd rather not every game try to reinvent the wheel when I just want to move the camera/character/units around.

  84. Not as hard as you thought. by Metex · · Score: 1

    I acutally know guys who program and do all the art for thier games. http://www.wolfire.com is run by a friend of mine and it has an amazing quality of games now adays. lugaru is top quality fighting and design. 6 months of programing by 1 guy produced that in his spare time at the highschool level.

    --
    Never could figure out why my girl liked my bitch tits, then I found out she was a lesbian.
  85. No alternatives!? by jrockway · · Score: 1, Insightful
    From the article:

    Visual C++ is the best compiler we have on PCs--with no competitive alternatives.

    (from the second page)

    What about Intel's excellent compiler? Or AMD's? Or GCC?

    I think someone needs to think outside the box here. Surely if you're good enough to write a game like UT2003 (or something) you could deal with emacs* and use a great compiler. Oh well. Whatever, I don't play games (often) anyway. :)

    * Saying "dealing with emacs" is like complaining that your girlfriend loves you too much. In other words (slashdotters may not relate to the gf example ;), emacs is much nicer than Visual Studio. But some people might not think so.

    --
    My other car is first.
  86. A C to sail them on. by mrmeval · · Score: 2, Funny

    Designers in abundance, salesmen all around but what I need is a coder and a C to sail them on.

    But this C is tiny and difficult to sail so I'll hand them all an upgrade to C++ and let them wail.

    This shrieking is ill met, I stop and look profound as I have a solution it's C pound.

    My coders all have left me with this ugly stinking mess I should have not given them more and more but merely better less.

    --
    I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
  87. A successful indy game by McCrapDeluxe · · Score: 1

    Live For Speed is a game developed independently, and it's proving to be reasonably successful so far.

  88. Try the Entertainment Technology Center at CMU by mistermund · · Score: 1

    I got my undergrad from UCF in Digital Media, just down the street from FullSail - heard some questionable things as well about the place. They do have kickin' facilities, though.

    I'm a grad student now at the Entertainment Technology Center at Carnegie Mellon University. The program has people going into many industries, but the majority are into video games. We have graduates at Rockstar, EA, Maxis, Angel Studios, and a number of other companies. One guy was back from his co-op at Maxis and had to excuse himself from a party because Will Wright had called him on his cell. We took a trip to EA (among other companies like Pixar, Disney, etc) last month, where the Vice President and CTO each gave presentations to our group of 30 or so.

    Unlike many vocational programs, we don't actually have any courses on video game programming directly, though we do offer official courses in Maya, Building Virtual Worlds, and Game Design. The game design course mainly focuses on board, dice, and card games.

    Retro gaming is a popular side hobby, with one student teaching a course in Game Development for the 8-bit NES and the X-Arcade company at residence in our building. (We've got two MAME Arcade setups in the hall)

    It's not uncommon to see students parked in front of the gaming setups we have on each floor (with all the major consoles) doing "research", only to go back and discuss what they learned for a few hours with their project team.

    The program is pretty demanding and tough to get in, but it's a fun place. Gaming is not an easy industry, there's a lot of late hours, especially in "crunch" mode before a game ships, but it's pretty rewarding.

  89. Re:here is a spelling/grammar clue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There != Their != They're.

    There = Not here.
    Their = Belonging to them
    They're = "They are"

  90. What about Python? by Jeranon · · Score: 1

    It found its way into Irrational's Freedom Force and will probably make a reappearance into the upcoming sequel.
    Admittedly, that's just one game.

    1. Re:What about Python? by juhaz · · Score: 1

      There are few other games using Python, Temple of Elemental Evil comes to mind.

  91. Try Panda3D by mistermund · · Score: 1


    Try Panda 3D (Sourceforge Page)- it's an open source game engine originally written at Disney's VR studio for DisneyQuest and Toontown Online. We're now co-developing it with the Disney team at the Entertainment Technology Center at CMU, and use it for a lot of internal projects.

    The core is written in C++, but game programming is done in Python, which initializes the engine. Exporters exist for Max & Maya. Since your stuff runs in Python, it's simple to add extra functionality. Last semester we used it for the Building Virtual Worlds Class, and were able to add things like networking, computer vision, MIDI IO, and simple show control pretty trivially. One group now is using it to do realtime interactive stuff on a dome with 5 cameras stitched together in realtime.

    This semester, the project is adding in-engine video playback using Helix and integrating with the Eclipse IDE. It serves our needs pretty well.

  92. Game Patterns manual by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What's needed is a list of Game Patterns.

    Rick DeBay

  93. The games industry is going to die. by master_p · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The games industry is going to die because there *is* an upper bound on complexity, as you have said.

    I've said it before and I was modded as troll. But, if one faces reality, he/she would see that games development becomes much harder every year. Only really exceptional developers will be able to make a product that stands out. The smaller ones will die or will be absorbed by bigger ones.

    In fact, there are several problems already.

    One of the problems is the tools themselves. Although I am not a games programmer, the article's considerations are real, and they are present for bussiness systems, also. The usage of a language that solves some of the previous language problems (Java instead of C++, for example) only solves some tiny fraction of the problems.

    Another problem is the content. There are just no new ideas. I have practically stopped playing FPS games after Half Life, because everything seems so inferior to it. I was playing the Contract Jack demo the other day, and it seemed so boring!!! I just had to shoot and shoot and shoot enemies, and that's it.

    Personally, I have given up playing modern games. I am back to playing old games that I have missed. I recently finished Legend Of Zelda: A Link to the Past (on emulation, of course), and I found it highly endertaining. It was easy to grasp, easy on the eye, with very clever puzzles, many things to do and explore, in short, a fantastic game. I started Chrono Trigger yesterday. And in the last year, I have played many other games that are of high entertainment value (for example the remake of Kings Quest 2 by Tierra).

    There are lots of good games out there that one can play that are not very demanding and they are highly entertaining. And thanks to the Internet, they are available.

    Finally, I really pity console owners. The PC offers much greater entertainment that it is not possible with a console. I was a console player, but now I am hooked to games that actually require thought...that is the best genre, really.

    1. Re:The games industry is going to die. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Finally, I really pity console owners. The PC offers much greater entertainment that it is not possible with a console. I was a console player, but now I am hooked to games that actually require thought...that is the best genre, really.

      But Zelda and Chrono Trigger are console games. I suppose at least they weren't too mindlessly boring for you.

  94. Modders will Safe The World by Tei · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Do you know Counter-Strike? Its a mod. Do you know DoD? Its a mod. Actually some very interesting games comes as a devirative work of other game. That safe a lot of work, whatever can be shared, dont need to be recreated (the engine, textures, sounds, menus, etc...) and you have instantly a lot of users.

    So you make a tiny mod for Half-Life, and you have a 1 millon potentian userbase. Cool or not?

    Making mods shortcut the problem of very very long development process.

    posdata:
    Recently a quake guru (FrikaC) has make a Tetris clone in only 2 hours of work. You can download a stand-alone version here:

    http://telejano.berlios.de/option/qtetris1.zip

    --

    -Woof woof woof!

    1. Re:Modders will Safe The World by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ^^ Agreed, and the Desert Combat team just signed a half-million dollar deal with EA to make a mod for Battlefield Vietnam. None of them coders, ether: model makers, skinners, map designers, and scripters.

      Meanwhile I read here about all these hardcore "game programmers" moaning about how tough it is to build and engine. What the fuck are you doing that for? We have engines, and new ones coming out. And if we really need more game engines, Eastern Europe seems to be fucking full of them.

  95. Making Game by essreenim · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Yeah, I totally agree. The games business is really a trade. I'm a qualified Software Engineer but I know that means nothing in the games business. The amount of exposure you get to games creation as a whoole in college for me is minimal. I work for a games company, and I have been exposed to the madness of build fever etc. Its organised chaos. The article is excellent and its actually very nice for me to read as I would have to concider myself as a pawn on the chessboard of the games creation business. The best thing is it's honest. Games creation for modern MMG's is a miraculous thing. Notice the graphs that this guy - an expert - has put together. Along way from UML aren't they??. And in their heart, the really top-level engineers / designers will all admit that they could not put a logical coherant uml spec for an mmg at the initial stage, that will end up looking anything like the final one. What was best, was he pointed out the problems with the business. In particular, I liked this quote:


    We would much rather have that manpower spent to make the system compile programs quickly, or generate efficient code,


    Bingo, I think the future of mmg's depends on this. People increasingly will want more variation in gameplay. Concepts like an Architecture Generation Engine (AGE) would benefit greatly from this. An AGE makes a multiplayer map/scenario different every time you play it, so you have to adapt all the time. The ability to randomly generate and compile the new map very quickly, is very important. This for me is the neatest thing in gaming going on right now. Great article!

  96. The problem is that design is a weak discipline by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    My main experience, from programming on computer game projects ranging in size from 10 to 80 people, is that design is a weak discipline. Planning is often non-existant (in a way that simply does not happen when writing a graphics engine or sound library or building from concept art into in-game models) and suffers from the whims of anyone with a say (all levels of management and often extending into the entire team) that feels they can add input in a way that does not happen when approaching other fields.
    Features are often not thought through and the interaction between the many aspects of a game not even considered.

    Designers can be placed in two camps. Those who, given a half completed project, based on a vague specification, can tell you what's wrong with it, what they like about it and hint and what to do next and those that can sit with a blank sheet of paper and find a feature set that will interact in a way that will enhance the game rather than act to it's detriment.

    I'm sure that type II designers exist. I don't think I've ever met any of them.

    I've worked on too many projects with Just-In-Time design that's burnt out the art team (who are the first to suffer when design strays) and even the programming team.

    Blue sky design is often seen as an opportunity to come up with a crazy set of "cool" features that out-do every game ever made in every aspect. This rapidly cools into less and less of a next-gen game as time is wasted on prototyping the impossible (often going beyond prototyping and getting half way into a finished game before it's realised that it _is_ impossible) where, in the first place, the design team should have sat down and just talked through ten minutes of gameplay to see if it would be possible/contain positively interacting features/actually be fun.

    Of course, rigidity in design can also be a huge problem if taken to extremes. What is generally needed is a well thought out, flexible design that does not suffer the whims of all and sundry. This, unfortunately, is rarely the case.

    Mike
    (working on a Sunday due to the whims and impractical designs of industry luminaries)

  97. Not reinventing the wheel, but we may have to. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Another problem is the half finished game engines out there, some of them are nice and have set up nice goals but are far from finished. No, most of us happy amateurs do NOT have a gazillion in cash to get a Gamebryo or UT engine license.

    For a hobby project, i've been evaluating client(3D) and server software for months (sourceforge stuff) and decided to write the server software myself (DB/sockets, positioning, commands, items and all that) and hope to find someone(or more) who has the client side skills.

    Otoh; i dont have a deadline..

  98. guess what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You are not qualified to be a game programmer. Sucks, but true. There really is no point in having "entry level" positions other than to develope more qualified programmers, but that would be too farsighted a goal for the biz...

    Getting into the industry is like getting into Hollywood. You can't just say "I'm qualified, give me the job." You need to: bullshit, lie, give blowjobs, beg to work for free, start your own biz, etc.

    Too many wannabees...

  99. NES Mega Man bosses by bonch · · Score: 1

    Heck, the bosses in the last few NES Mega Man cames were all entries submitted into a design a boss contest.

    Actually, it was just two of them in Mega Man 5, submitted in a Nintendo Power contest.

    1. Re:NES Mega Man bosses by edwdig · · Score: 1

      That was the only contest in the US. Capcom ran contests in Japan for about MegaMan 4 and on.

  100. Re:Oh no! 30 minutes for a full build! by zero_offset · · Score: 1
    30 minutes is nothing in terms of build time...

    ...after their first experience with such horrific development delays.

    So which is it -- "nothing" or "horrific"?

    --

    Slashdot quality declines as the number of hot grits posts decreases. - Provolt's Law, Apr-09-2005

  101. Narrative driven dont innovate very well. by LordZardoz · · Score: 1

    You do make a viable point. A game that strays far from conventional ideas is better served by being short. However, it should not be short in terms of the amount of time it takes to beat the game. It should be short in terms of how long it takes to play a complete game / round / level.

    What will cut down the costs of making an innovative game is in cutting down the 'turn around time', or time it takes to create and play test new levels or ideas.

    Super Monkey Ball and Chu Chu Rocket managed to do this perfectly. You can play a complete game or level very quickly. Mario 64 did well at this also (it does not take too long to get that first star).

    RPG's like Final Fantasy and Adventures like Half Life dont lend themselves very well to this. They work on a completely different time scale from a players point of view. Quick level transitions break up the narrative, which is the primary appeal of the game.

    As such, they do not innovate with new styles of gameplay. They innovate by expanding the gameplay options of their predecessors (Better enemy AI, in game physics, more open storylines, new weapons or vehicles, new levels).

    You cannot make a followup or immitator and expect to beat your predecesor title if you deliver less core gameplay then the predecessor. That only works for expansion packs.

    END COMMUNICATION

  102. Mod parent up. by PhoenixOne · · Score: 1
    I've never done this before, but "mod parent up".

    Oh, and game headhunters suck IMHO. I wasted 3 years with them. Unless you are a programming god in a field they need, they are not going to pay the 5% (or whatever) to the headhunter. They will hire one of the several dozen wannabees offering them free blowjobs.

    --
    Spell cheek you've failed me four the last thyme!