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Seagate Rolls Out 400 GB SATA Drives

SenorCitizen writes "Seagate is the first hdd manufacturer to announce 400 GB 3.5" hard drives. The 7200.8 is SATA native and comes with buffer sizes up to 16 MB. Seagate also announced a 2.5" portable external hard drive with 100 GB, and an external USB2 pocket hard drive with 5 GB. Get leeching!"

418 comments

  1. USB pen distros by mastergoon · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Once BIOS supports booting from them, USB pen distros will be really nice. Read and write, and now a whole 5 gig on something easier to transport than a CD.

    1. Re:USB pen distros by wo1verin3 · · Score: 5, Informative

      My IBM ThinkPad already allows me to boot from a USB Memory key.. and the ThinkPad is almost 2 years old.

    2. Re:USB pen distros by Sielle · · Score: 5, Informative

      Most current BIOS's will already support booting off of USB drives.

    3. Re:USB pen distros by Goldfinger7400 · · Score: 1

      It was my impression that flash media like the key drives had a limited number of writes (though large). Though still good for booting occasionally, you certainly wouldn't want to have frequently changing data on there, like logs or a swap file.

      Someone correct me if my info here is wrong or outdated.

    4. Re:USB pen distros by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Would a Serial ATA networking device, like a NIC be SATANIC?

    5. Re:USB pen distros by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      Yes, and most HP/Compaq and Dell machines will boot from USB. Matter of fact, that feature is usually on by default: at work someone left a USB flash key stuck in the back of my computer and since it didn't have an OS on it, my computer just hung on boot with a flashing cursor. Took me a while to figure that one out.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    6. Re:USB pen distros by Doppler00 · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Then can we PLEASE get rid of the floppy drive now? This was one of the last lame excuses I hear from people for needing a floppy drive. I absolutely will not buy a new computer from any company that forces you to have one in the system.

    7. Re:USB pen distros by simcop2387 · · Score: 1

      i can understand why i some people might not want them, they never use them, but i wouldn't get a computer without one still, i've got too many computers with old cd roms that wont read cd-r's well and don't have usb, floppy is about the only thing i can use, luckily though they aren't that hard to get a hold of either way

    8. Re:USB pen distros by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      you do realize that you could just take the floppy drive out of the system, its $10 addition to the system's price is nothing compaired to Microsoft tax you'd pay on the system anyway. Its not as if the floppy drive is holding back your system's performance, its integrated into the super I/O for goodness sakes and runs through the southbridge with all the other slow components.

      Also most geeks i know have at least 100 floppies lying around that could be kept specially for emergencies while USB drives still cost too much to be kept only as a reserve for most people.

    9. Re:USB pen distros by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You could have come off as helpful if just posted a couple links to some pen distros and didn't flame the original poster but instead you just came off as a asshole, congradulations.

    10. Re:USB pen distros by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then can we PLEASE get rid of the floppy drive now?

      Why?

    11. Re:USB pen distros by MonMotha · · Score: 3, Informative

      The number of writes that your average flash chip can endure is so large, that you'd have to TRY to "wear it out". Most flash devices these days (at least all the good ones) do wear patterning, where new writes are spread out over a large second of unused space (though this often requires filesystem support, see jffs[2]). This makes it even harder to kill flash memory since writes to one spot won't actually write to one spot, but will instead be spread over the whole device.

      For grins, someone once went and calculated how long it would take to "wear out" the flash in a 32MB iPAQ. They figured out that, using wear patterning on an unloaded device (in other words, writing the the entire device and then starting over at the beginnign again), it would take 12 YEARS to wear it out if one were to write as fast as the flash was rated to write. Of course, if you're not wear patterning, you could wear out a sector quickly, but that's what filesystems have bad sector support for (even FAT has it, though that's a holdover from the ancient days where hard drives came with bad sectors, and of course flash filesystems support the inevitable wearing out of sectors).

    12. Re:USB pen distros by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude a floppy drive is like 20 bucks. Get over it. Probably costs more for them to remove it than to just assemble a thousand machines with the floppy included.

    13. Re:USB pen distros by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True, but even most people with old PCs are not going to use it very often, so how about USB floppy drives instead? $30 is a little much for a floppy drive, but maybe that'll improve if they become more widespread.

      And since USB devices don't take up drive bays and floppy drives are so damn slow, a double, triple or even quadruple USB floppy drive would be quite useful to some people.

    14. Re:USB pen distros by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You could have come off as helpful if just posted a couple links to some pen distros

      What is he, Google personified? I also don't see any links from your ever so useful post, smart-arse.

      congradulations.

      It's congratulations. Put down Hooked on Phonics and blow your damn nose.

    15. Re:USB pen distros by szap · · Score: 2, Interesting
      You can already install Debian Sarge from USB drives: Debian Installer Test Candidate 1.

      As for running a full fledged distro on it, you'd need something like a LiveCD setup to automagically reconfigure most of your hardware and network settings though, if you change computers around.

      Off into a rambling tangent:
      Hmmm... used to be that a computer/OS needs to support multiple users on a single computer, now it's time to add support (persistent hardware profiles, for example) for multiple, different users per OS? Imagine that: you physically carry all your OS, software, data with you. Great for Unis: you want more space on your home directory/account? Buy your own bigger drive. Use local harddrive for caching non-confidential files transparently and for swap. Need to modify kernel(s), but being able to suspend to usb drive, and resume on a totally different hardware would be cool. Sell, rent these to the underpriviledged to be able to use own stuff in cybercafe/library?

    16. Re:USB pen distros by Forge · · Score: 1

      No we can't.

      The floppy drive on new systems is used to make boot flopys for old systems and to transfer DATA betwean the new and the ancient.

      At least that's what I use the flopy on my Inspiron 8200 for most often.

      --
      --= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
    17. Re:USB pen distros by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because it drains a massive .8 amperes of the +5 rail!

    18. Re:USB pen distros by Doppler00 · · Score: 1

      But some systems integrate weird customized slots for the floppy drive, so you can take the drive out, but you have the slot and eject mechanism still in the case. Very annoying. It's also difficult to find blank faceplates or memory drive bays that match the color of the PC.

      I used to have 100 floppies lying around. I painstakingly went through all of them, copied the contents to my computer, and burned the contents on a couple CDRs (1 backup). It's made finding my old files so much easier. I then threw the original floppy disks away.

  2. Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    I was just about to purchase 2 x 200GB drives. Now I can pay thrice as much for storage I'll never use!

    1. Re:Finally! by Glial · · Score: 1

      Well...I thought it was funny.

    2. Re:Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What kind of geek ARE you?!

    3. Re:Finally! by Kjella · · Score: 1

      *blinks* Too much space? *bzzzzt* ERROR: Does not compute. We are the P2P downloaders of Borg. You content will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.

      Kjella

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    4. Re:Finally! by stanmann · · Score: 1

      So you don't want to download the internet to your computer?

      --
      Food not Bombs is a nice platitude but it breaks down when you notice that the Bombees are usually well fed
    5. Re:Finally! by fcolari · · Score: 1

      There is a collary to Murphy's Law-- "Expendature rises to meet income." Over the last 10 years, the same concept can be applied for my HDD space.

      --
      "The first rule of intelligent tinkering is to save all the pieces." --Aldo Leopold (Paraphrased)
  3. Ooops... by Cheerio+Boy · · Score: 4, Informative

    2.5" portable external hard drive with 100 MB

    Wouldn't that 100GB?

    --

    "Bah!" - Dogbert
    1. Re:Ooops... by NanoGator · · Score: 4, Funny

      "Wouldn't that 100GB?"

      No, they're talking about a Zip drive. Slashdot's just a little slow on reporting current news.

      --
      "Derp de derp."
    2. Re:Ooops... by Cheerio+Boy · · Score: 1, Funny

      Never mind - misread the line. 100MB is the buffer size for that drive.

      Sheesh. My first original drive was smaller than the buffer on these new drives.

      Really makes me think about where things have gone...

      --

      "Bah!" - Dogbert
    3. Re:Ooops... by JDevers · · Score: 1

      Nope, you were right the first time...100GB total capacity

    4. Re:Ooops... by Zapper · · Score: 5, Funny

      I always get a bit depressed when I read about current tech.
      First, video cards get more RAM than my main system.
      Then , HDDs get more cache RAM than my video card has.
      Technology prediction: Tomorrow (or maybe the next day), Intel or AMD release CPUs with more cache than my system RAM. AAAAARRRGH.

      --
      So much to do, so little bandwidth.
      --
      Try Mozilla
    5. Re:Ooops... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i guess it's time to throw away those 4mb simms....

      sniff sniff

    6. Re:Ooops... by dasmegabyte · · Score: 4, Funny

      Well, it's your own fault for using Linux. If you used Windows like me, you'd be forced to upgrade every four years or so...

      --
      Hey freaks: now you're ju
    7. Re:Ooops... by Wraithlyn · · Score: 4, Funny

      LUXURY!

      My system's so old that modern CPUs have more capacity in SINGLE REGISTERS than all my disk storage combined! Uphill! Both ways! ;)

      --
      "Mind, as manifested by the capacity to make choices, is to some extent present in every electron." -Freeman Dyson
    8. Re:Ooops... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The insensitive clod!

    9. Re:Ooops... by thexaspect · · Score: 1

      see the problem is, you're only joking. you just described my whole damn apartment. hand me downs from the dad in the network services dept at the old hospital back home, and that was BEFORE i ever left for school. three years later, same hardware. yippie.

    10. Re:Ooops... by suwain_2 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Slashdot's just a little slow on reporting current news.

      Oh no, it runs stories in a pretty timely fashion. The Zip drive story is just a dupe.

      --
      ________________________________________________
      suwain_2 :: quality slashdot p
    11. Re:Ooops... by Zapper · · Score: 1

      It's not like I don't appreciate the positive comment moderation, but the only joke was about the [near?] future CPUs. :-/
      Oh well, one day the savings account won't get raided for a kids emergency doctors appt and I might get some new h/w.

      --
      So much to do, so little bandwidth.
      --
      Try Mozilla
    12. Re:Ooops... by dago · · Score: 1

      well, I don't know for your main system, but sun has ultrasparc cpu with 4MB since 98/99 (?) and is now at 16MB cache ...

      --
      #include "coucou.h"
    13. Re:Ooops... by Zapper · · Score: 1

      Okay, I've got a little breathing room yet. :-)
      Still thats more cache that my Acorn Archimedes had RAM (4MB).

      --
      So much to do, so little bandwidth.
      --
      Try Mozilla
  4. Eh, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wait a few months for the price to hit $200 then I'll be excited.

  5. Re: Huh? by chas7926 · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Is this news?

    >>Seagate also announced a 2.5" portable external hard drive with 100 MB

    --
    Linux User #296508 Get Counted!
  6. Oh my by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Is that 5GB in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?

    1. Re:Oh my by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like most compact media now... small but perfectly formed!

    2. Re:Oh my by Dorothy+86 · · Score: 1

      IANAE(ngineer) but, is 5GB in a drive that size that amazing? How big are the iPod drives that hold much more than that? Not trolling, I'm honestly asking.

    3. Re:Oh my by AnomalyConcept · · Score: 1

      I'm happy to see the 5GB. In such a small package. =P

    4. Re:Oh my by kfg · · Score: 5, Funny

      Is that 5GB in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?

      Well, now that you mention it, several of the pictures I have on this drive are pictures of you -- and a pony, that I found on some website.

      It seems your Xboyfriend had an X10 camera and. . .

      Welcome to the world of ubiquitous data, sweet thing.

      KFG

    5. Re:Oh my by NanoGator · · Score: 5, Funny

      "Is that 5GB in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?"

      You think 5 gigs is impressing? Just wait until I unzip.

      --
      "Derp de derp."
    6. Re:Oh my by shigelojoe · · Score: 1

      Well, now that you mention it, several of the pictures I have on this drive are pictures of you -- and a pony, that I found on some website.

      Kinky. :p

    7. Re:Oh my by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      iPod: 1.8 inches. iPod Mini (4GB): CF form factor.

    8. Re:Oh my by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh, I don't think I want to download that WAD from you laptop, man. No offense, but I'm still floppy.

    9. Re:Oh my by CreatureComfort · · Score: 1


      If you play with it a bit it'll grow to 10GB. Honest.

      --
      "Unheard of means only it's undreamed of yet,
      Impossible means not yet done." ~~ Julia Ecklar
    10. Re:Oh my by hesiod · · Score: 1

      > IANAE(ngineer) but, is 5GB in a drive that size that amazing?

      For the average person, no, but for him, "that size" is pretty small. Sorry...

    11. Re:Oh my by solarlux · · Score: 1

      Don't make me partition that!

  7. IBM already ships 400GB SATA disks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Seagate is not the first with 400GB disks,
    IBM announced them a copule months ago and already ships them.

    1. Re:IBM already ships 400GB SATA disks by Trillan · · Score: 0

      Don't forget Hitachi, which has a 400GB disk with your choice of ATA or SATA. That was back in March.

    2. Re:IBM already ships 400GB SATA disks by foidulus · · Score: 4, Informative

      IBM announced them a copule months ago and already ships them.
      Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that IBM sold most of it's hard drive business to Hitachi(IBM still holds 30% IIRC) and that the drives that are shipping from IBM's former hd unit are now all labeled under the hitachi name?

    3. Re:IBM already ships 400GB SATA disks by cens0r · · Score: 3, Informative

      Don't forget that IBM sold it's disk business to Hitachi so you guys are talking about the same thing.

      --
      Jack Valenti and Orrin Hatch will be first up against the wall when the revolution comes.
    4. Re:IBM already ships 400GB SATA disks by Trillan · · Score: 1

      Har! Forgot about that, so thanks. :)

    5. Re:IBM already ships 400GB SATA disks by EddydaSquige · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The Seagate is the first with a Native SATA interface. I have no idea what that means, but I assume that to be important. Maybe faster IO?

    6. Re:IBM already ships 400GB SATA disks by Nogami_Saeko · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I recently quit purchasing regular ATA drives and have begun moving my systems to SATA.

      While the performance difference is negligable, the reduction in wiring clutter, and not having to mess around with jumpers on the back of the drive is pretty nice.

      If it were a $50 price difference, I would've stayed with regular ATA, however at a $10 price difference (or less), it's a no-brainer.

      Now, my master plan of a 8 x 400gb RAID array server is starting to look rather attainable :)

      N.

      --
      "Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence." - Charles de Gaulle
    7. Re:IBM already ships 400GB SATA disks by bhtooefr · · Score: 1

      Native SATA? That must mean that it's not one of those ATA/133 drives with a chip to allow it to look like a SATA device. In other words, (if the platters spin fast enough - they don't spin NEARLY fast enough) it can do 150Mb/s, instead of 133Mb/s like drives that do use such a chip.

    8. Re:IBM already ships 400GB SATA disks by afidel · · Score: 4, Informative

      Uh, the difference of native SATA vs EIDE with a SATA bridge chip has nothing to do with what you posted. Btw native SATA will be cheaper than even normal EIDE because the electronics are actually simpler. Chances are all of the SATA drives you have at this point are EIDE with the bridge chip since this is one of the first drives with a native chip (Raptor 10K was the first AFAIK).

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    9. Re:IBM already ships 400GB SATA disks by forevermore · · Score: 4, Informative
      IBM announced them a copule months ago and already ships them.

      That would be Hitachi (others pointed that out). On that note, the Hitachi drives come with a warning that they should not be left on for more than 24 hours (ie. not for use in servers). What good is a 400G drive if you can't use it in a server? Very few applications (if any) call for that much space in a desktop system.

      --
      Do you really need reason for beer? Wingman Brewers
    10. Re:IBM already ships 400GB SATA disks by Fweeky · · Score: 1

      Except IBM's are 80G/platter drives with up to 5 platters; Seagate are at 133G/platter, making their 400G version a 3 platter drive. That makes for quieter, faster and cooler \o/

    11. Re:IBM already ships 400GB SATA disks by laupark · · Score: 1

      Seagate = Hitachi?

    12. Re:IBM already ships 400GB SATA disks by anethema · · Score: 1

      Maybe theoretically, but the seagates actually have the lowest performance of any of the big manufacturers.

      Makes ya wonder :)

      --


      It's easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.
    13. Re:IBM already ships 400GB SATA disks by cens0r · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, IBM = Hitachi. Seagate are still seagate.

      --
      Jack Valenti and Orrin Hatch will be first up against the wall when the revolution comes.
    14. Re:IBM already ships 400GB SATA disks by Space_Soldier · · Score: 1

      I'm not happy until they release 400 GiB (gibibytes) hard drives.

    15. Re:IBM already ships 400GB SATA disks by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 1
      Depends. More platters means the disk can dispatch more reads and write in parallel. (Each platter has it's own head.)

      And why would Seagate only have 3 platters? Each disk has 2 sides, so unless the system is crippled (i.e. they use rejects with only 1 good side) the platters should be a multiple of 2.

      I'm not experienced enough to say if the number of platters has a bearing on noise.

      --
      "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
      --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
    16. Re:IBM already ships 400GB SATA disks by Dahan · · Score: 2, Informative
      And why would Seagate only have 3 platters? Each disk has 2 sides, so unless the system is crippled (i.e. they use rejects with only 1 good side) the platters should be a multiple of 2.

      No, the number of platters is however many platters they decide to put in the drive. The number of heads is the number of platters * 2. Two heads per platter--one for the top, and one for the bottom.

    17. Re:IBM already ships 400GB SATA disks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      AMMO AMMO AMMO AMMO AMMO NOW!

      Or elect the entirely differen Skulls & Bones candidate No. 2!

    18. Re:IBM already ships 400GB SATA disks by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 1
      This just seems to be my day to get technical details wrong.

      (Mmmm. Crow is sure yummy this time of year, isn't it?)

      --
      "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
      --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
    19. Re:IBM already ships 400GB SATA disks by DAldredge · · Score: 1

      Maybe your Good twin is posting? ;->

    20. Re:IBM already ships 400GB SATA disks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Now, my master plan of a 8 x 400gb RAID array server is starting to look rather attainable

      My master plan of unlimited rice pudding is looking a little sorry now.

    21. Re:IBM already ships 400GB SATA disks by __aafkqj3628 · · Score: 1

      Until we get a seek time of 0ms, it doesn't matter as much as you'd hope it does.

    22. Re:IBM already ships 400GB SATA disks by Deton8 · · Score: 3, Informative

      The Raptor drives are not native SATA. They use a ATA/SATA converter chip made by Marvell.

    23. Re:IBM already ships 400GB SATA disks by StateOfTheUnion · · Score: 1
      I would agree that eventually native SATA drives will be cheaper . . . but I don't agree with the reason.

      A 1.8Ghz Duron ($44) at pricewatch.com contains more complicated electronics than . . . say a . . . basic stamp 2 microcontroller ($49). Why is the more complicated elctronic device more expensive? Economies of scale, market size, and competition, all weigh in on the pricing system . . . And all this can be boiled down to supply and demand.

      Simplicity of electronics is one factor, but not a single determining factor in price.

  8. Large buffer size is not advantageous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    For large writes, it is, because the writes can be quickly cached and handed over to the drive for storage.

    However, for most Linux hobbiests, small writes (saving conf files, storing UI tweaks, etc) are the name of the game. Wasting space with the cache like that is just asking for huge penalties for the normal Linux user.

    Gimme a smaller cache and a cheaper price.

    1. Re:Large buffer size is not advantageous by Smallpond · · Score: 2, Informative

      Drives in their default configuration will not complete a write until it is on disk. You usually have to enable write caching with software. This shouldn't be done except if you have a UPS (or you really know what you're doing). 16MB pseudo-static RAM is one chip, so its not like you save anything making it smaller.

    2. Re:Large buffer size is not advantageous by sploxx · · Score: 1

      You're confusing two things.
      First, you have disk (or let's rather say, mass media) cache which is managed by your linux kernel. It uses your computers RAM which sits on the mainboard (usually).
      Second, you have cache memory (also RAM), which is *in the disk drive* itself. More of that can never hurt because it won't use up your main memory.

      Sorry for stating that so explicitely, but your comment really force me to write it down that way.

    3. Re:Large buffer size is not advantageous by Ignignot · · Score: 1

      If you think that the majority of your hd writes are you changing conf files or UI tweaks then you are sorely mistaken. Your computer writes to the hard drive a lot on its own as well, and for things like compiling software you're going to notice a difference with a bigger cache.

      --
      I submitted this story last night, and it didn't get posted.
    4. Re:Large buffer size is not advantageous by WebMasterP · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It seems to me a drive with this capacity would most likely be used for something like a PVR or a cheap file server, which would certainly benefit large writes. I don't think you need 400GB for your config files and UI tweaks. So what would you fill this 400GB HDD up with? probably large files.

      It's not like saving these config files with a 16MB buffer is even going to be noticably slower.

    5. Re:Large buffer size is not advantageous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope. Write cache is on by default on Seagate S-ATA drives. If power fails, you're hosed.

      4.3.2 Set Features command

      02H Enable write cache (default).

    6. Re:Large buffer size is not advantageous by Fweeky · · Score: 1

      Isn't TCQ supposed to make write cache safe?

    7. Re:Large buffer size is not advantageous by Bryson · · Score: 2, Informative

      Moreover, track buffers allow the disk to de-couple reading
      and writing the magnetic media, from transferring data over the
      bus. The disk should always be able to read one track in one
      spin (after the seek), then transfer it at whatever bus
      bandwidth is available.

    8. Re:Large buffer size is not advantageous by pocopoco · · Score: 2, Informative

      tcq would make writes less safe, since the drive is deciding on the write order rather than the OS (one alternative to journaling file systems is keeping very close track of write orders/dependencies). for scsi there are commands to skip the cache and write directly to disk for OSes to use, however. the use of such commands (and the performance penalty for writing safely) is why everyone complains about winxp scsi performance. normal ata has no such commands, although you can disable the write cache entirely (which is what microsoft recommends). I don't know if sata added these.

  9. 400GB Harddrives... by SageMadHatter · · Score: 0, Redundant

    ...the more room I have for storing pr0n of course!

    1. Re:400GB Harddrives... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You too. No need for any ridiculous flamebaits like this.

  10. Length of Warranty? by DAldredge · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Is the warrany on this 400GB drive 1 year or 3 years? I didn't find mention on their site of how long it is, and if it is only 1 year why should you trust your data to it?

    1. Re:Length of Warranty? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      "Is the warrany on this 400GB drive 1 year or 3 years? I didn't find mention on their site of how long it is, and if it is only 1 year why should you trust your data to it?"

      Yes, but only for eleven months.

    2. Re:Length of Warranty? by deepestblue · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How would a 3-year warranty help me recover my data in case of failure? If I don't have backups, I don't see how I can trust my data however long the warranty period is.

    3. Re:Length of Warranty? by sharkey · · Score: 5, Funny

      It's warranteed for as long as you own the drive, or until you open the anti-static bag. Whichever comes first.

      --

      --
      "Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
    4. Re:Length of Warranty? by DAldredge · · Score: 3, Informative

      The length of the warranty shows how long they are willing to stand behind what they sell. If they will only stand behind it for 365.2425 days, then why should you trust it?

    5. Re:Length of Warranty? by lgbarker · · Score: 1

      Warranties are a poor way to judge reliability, IMHO. They are more likely to be marketing-driven than engineering-based.

    6. Re:Length of Warranty? by DAldredge · · Score: 1

      No, it's cost based. The newer drives fail more in their later years so they reduced the length of the warranty. If they had faith in their product and it lasted a long time, it would cost them next to nothing to have 3 year warranty.

    7. Re:Length of Warranty? by TheGavster · · Score: 2, Funny

      The key then is obviously to come up with some kind of pentrator to make SATA and power connections without disturbing the seal ...

      --
      "Because Science" is one step from "Because old book". Try "Because of my experiment testing my falsifiable assertion".
    8. Re:Length of Warranty? by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 1
      I don't trust any storage device farther than I can throw it. Scratch that. There seems to be and inverse relationship between heft and reliability. By 20 pound tape backup unit would probably take a bullet, while my wafer thin memory stick looses bits by staring at it.

      I plan for failure, it's just a question of when recovery time exceeds the cost difference.

      --
      "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
      --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
    9. Re:Length of Warranty? by deepestblue · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I agree. The point is that there's a difference between trusting a company to make good products and trusting the drive to keep your data safe. The latter is independent of warranty, unlike what the original post implies.

    10. Re:Length of Warranty? by shdragon · · Score: 1

      That's great. However for the other 95% of the people who WILL use this as their only drive, I'd say it's important to know whether they're willing to back their product for 1 or 3 years.

      --
      "...we dont care about the economics; we just want to be able to hack great stuff."
    11. Re:Length of Warranty? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not neccessarily, what about drives with really bad power? Or bad cooling, like drives wraped in some kind of heat insualating noise reducing material, or drives sandwiched between two hotter drives?

    12. Re:Length of Warranty? by eelke_klein · · Score: 1

      When a company doesn't dare to give a three year warranty its a clear signal that they will expect many drives to fail within three years. So you shoudn't trust the drive even if you do trust the company.

  11. Just out of curiosity... by blackula · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Does anyone know what ever became of the $1/GB tax on hard drives in France?

    That could make for some pretty pricy hard drives if it's still in effect...

    1. Re:Just out of curiosity... by bhtooefr · · Score: 4, Informative

      It only applies to bulk hard drives in media processing devices (TiVos, DVD recorders, MP3 jukeboxes (set-top or portable), etc.), and it goes (basically) to the French **AA.

      I found this out by RYourFA.

    2. Re:Just out of curiosity... by totatis · · Score: 3, Informative

      This tax was discussed by French's Ministry of Culture, but was vetoed by former Prime Minister Jospin. So, in fact, this tax never existed.

    3. Re:Just out of curiosity... by Moocowsia · · Score: 1

      The AA part stands for Association of America, so it wouldn't be AA

      --
      Moo!
    4. Re:Just out of curiosity... by bhtooefr · · Score: 1

      OK, I'll slip in "equivalent of the".

      I know **AA means ** Association of America, that's why I put French in the first place.

    5. Re:Just out of curiosity... by EulerX07 · · Score: 1

      Try RI?? or RI*

      That should work.

    6. Re:Just out of curiosity... by blackula · · Score: 1

      That doesn't answer my question.

    7. Re:Just out of curiosity... by bhtooefr · · Score: 1

      No, because that doesn't include the French equivalent of the MPAA.

    8. Re:Just out of curiosity... by bhtooefr · · Score: 1

      It means that this hard drive only gets a 200E tax if it's sold in bulk to a manufacturer of a digital media device.

  12. Sure, good stuff... by Eric(b0mb)Dennis · · Score: 4, Interesting

    But not down to my level of use, seems more geared at enterprise solutions....80gb IDE drives are going for what... 50 cents a gb now? last 80gb drive i bought was around $60

    Don't know the cost of this drive, but i'll stick to my RAID arrays and be happy as a Joe Consumer.

    --
    Excuse me, I don't mean to impose, but I am the ocean
    1. Re:Sure, good stuff... by wankledot · · Score: 1
      "Don't know the cost of this drive, but i'll stick to my RAID arrays and be happy as a Joe Consumer. "

      That statement is amusing to be, since "Joe Consumer" does not use RAID. Joe Gearhead, and/or Joe Supergeek might, but not Mr. Consumer.

      --
      My sig is blank, I typed this by hand.
    2. Re:Sure, good stuff... by Eric(b0mb)Dennis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Look, I was just giving the price I paid about 5 months ago for my 80gb maxtor drive. I was guessing price might have went down a bit, big deal?

      Why do you people on slashdot constantly get joy out of correcting someone's innane mistake then putting a little one-liner at the end?? It's so frickin' common.

      --
      Excuse me, I don't mean to impose, but I am the ocean
    3. Re:Sure, good stuff... by xsupergr0verx · · Score: 1

      Haven't seen close to $0.50/gb. Closest I got was $100 for a 160gb drive, but that was post rebates.

      --

      Click here for a free picture of an iPod!
    4. Re:Sure, good stuff... by JDevers · · Score: 1

      What he meant was that he would use the ID part of RAID (Inexpensive Disks) to the extreme. He would act as a Joe Consumer and buy normal size drives and then just array them...instead of buying server oriented gear...

    5. Re:Sure, good stuff... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not looking hard, then. Fry's 120GB for $59.99

    6. Re:Sure, good stuff... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      "50 cents a gb now?"

      indeed

    7. Re:Sure, good stuff... by bhtooefr · · Score: 1

      Joe Consumer sees all these fancy buzzwords and stuff on the latest Alienware, ABS, and Falcon NW boxes, and buys one of those manufacturers' top of the line, $4000 box. Joe Consumer's probably running a 3 or 4-disk RAID 0 in that box, and all he knows is he's got a 1TB hard drive, and somehow it's made with four 250GB hard drives.

    8. Re:Sure, good stuff... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      But not down to my level of use, seems more geared at enterprise solutions....80gb IDE drives are going for what... 50 cents a gb now? last 80gb drive i bought was around $60

      Surely not a retail drive. I was just looking for a replacement 40 GB drive and they wanted $80 for a new 40 GB drive and $100 for an 80 GB drive at Microcenter. I ended up just getting a 250GB drive for $159 on sale, but it's extreme overkill for my Linux box. I just couldn't justify wasting the money on a smaller drive when for basically twice as much I get another 210 gigs.

    9. Re:Sure, good stuff... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      CompUSA WD 200GB HDD $100 after rebates.

    10. Re:Sure, good stuff... by king-manic · · Score: 1

      ID part of RAID (Inexpensive Disks)

      It stopped meanign "inexpensive" right after the designers priced out the components costs. RAID means
      Redundant array of independant Disks.

      --
      "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
    11. Re:Sure, good stuff... by JDevers · · Score: 1

      Yea, I know..I was being sarcastic ;)

    12. Re:Sure, good stuff... by Charcharodon · · Score: 1
      Bite your tongue man. 400gb! TOO SMALL! I'll take something twice that before it'll to start being usefull to me.

      Music 80gb DVD's 300gb TV shows 200gb

      ...and growing

      I want a single hard drive drive that can fit ever single piece of recorded media in human history. Then maybe I'll be satisfied.

    13. Re:Sure, good stuff... by spectre_240sx · · Score: 2, Funny

      Wow, you're going to be pretty pissed off when that drive fails.

    14. Re:Sure, good stuff... by ColaMan · · Score: 1

      not if he has two :-)

      --

      You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
      There is a lot of hype here.
    15. Re:Sure, good stuff... by ACPosterChild · · Score: 1

      I got a 200GB Seagate from newegg.com for $90 after $40 mail-in rebate (that's $.45/GB). The best I've seen before rebate is about $.63/GB (also at newegg).

    16. Re:Sure, good stuff... by Charcharodon · · Score: 1
      Yes there will be a great wailing of "Why God WHY?!" if I lost my current batch of harddrives

      Of course do I really need to keep every episode of Enterprise or the Simpsons that I've downloaded?

  13. It's been said before by agent+dero · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't need 400GB, hell I don't need 160GB; I need a hard drive that is more reliable

    These are cool and all, i'd love to have one, but I'll rest easier knowing that my 80GB, let alone 400GB is safe and reliable for some time to come.

    --
    Error 407 - No creative sig found
    1. Re:It's been said before by svallarian · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I really think they're just trying to get it to where everyone will upgrade their hardware every year...and therefore not needing to worry about long term reliability.

      But I think eventually they'll hit the intel roadblock of can't get an faster without breaking the laws of thermodynamics.

      Steven Vallarian>

      --
      I patented screwing your mom. But it got revoked for "prior art."
    2. Re:It's been said before by Nasarius · · Score: 0, Redundant

      The obvious solution, if you're willing to spend the money, is to put two 80GB hard drives into a RAID 1 array. It's highly unlikely that both will fail at the same time, so when one does, replace it with a new one. Repeat as necessary.

      --
      LOAD "SIG",8,1
    3. Re:It's been said before by hackstraw · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I don't need 400GB, hell I don't need 160GB; I need a hard drive that is more reliable

      I need about 500GB and something that is reliable. I'm looking at 3 250GB drives with raid5 which should be close enough to 500GB after the hardrive manufacturers stretching of the facts and formatting.

      My question is, where do you go to buy a harddrive nowadays at a good price. I've been looking at pricewatch for sometime, and I realized today that the prices there are too low to be true. Plus if you look at the feedback its miserable.

      Does anyone know of a good place to buy harddrives at a decent honest price? (Meaning the price I pay, not the before we jack up the price price, or the charge your credit card and tell you its sold out, oh wanna buy an upgraded part price)

    4. Re:It's been said before by mduell · · Score: 3, Informative

      NewEgg.com (which is listed on pricewatch)

    5. Re:It's been said before by tji · · Score: 1

      I don't need 400GB, hell I don't need 160GB; I need a hard drive that is more reliable

      This is definitely overkill unless you have an application for it.

      I could use a few of these in a RAID array. I have a couple HDTV capture cards, and at 8GB/hr it really adds up quickly. But, four of these puppies in a 1.2TB RAID-5 array would give me plenty of storage to not have to be selective in what I record.

    6. Re:It's been said before by Ford+Prefect · · Score: 5, Funny

      Re:It's been said before (Score:1, Redundant)

      I find something terribly amusing in a post about RAID being moderated 'Redundant'. 100% correct!

      Bloody hell, I'm such a nerd...

      --
      Tedious Bloggy Stuff - hooray?
    7. Re:It's been said before by AdamPiotrZochowski · · Score: 1


      if you need a drive that is more reliable get one like that.

      Everyone out here complains about reliability of hard drives.
      I had only:

      One drive fail on me due to age (clicks and then death)
      One drive died due to power fluctuations
      One drive circuit board burnt out due to overheating the case
      ( thats what you get for stacking 4 drives on each other,
      ( and anyways, fixing only required getting a replacement
      ( circuit board, not a biggie

      This is from the average of 40 drives that I have bought over
      last 10 years. And no, all these drives were cheapest and
      bottom of the barrell. I bought them randomly depending on
      which machine/server at work needed upgrade (was an admin)
      and from random shops, from mom and pop and from big flea
      market sales (www.comfest.com)

      Now, when buying the drive remember that the moving parts
      are generally the things that die. A disk rotating at 5400
      is more reliable than one at 10,000 if both are built the
      same way (generally 10,000rpm should have better material
      for the extra strain, but not always).

      Also, a 10,000 rpm at 20gb will have similiar bandwidth
      as 5400rpm at 40gb (assuming saem amount of platters/heads).
      The difference is latency (possibly twice longer wait for
      the stream to start, but not necesarilly, its also important
      to note the head spead, not just the platter speed).

      I do miss the 5400rpm drives, they were most reliable I had
      from anyone, and they easily saturate my 100mbit network.

      people who had drives fail are to blame themselves (unless
      the drive was from a company known to produce faulty drives,
      can you say 'deathstar'?). Did you really need that 40gb
      at 10000rpm? or 7200rpm? if you still can buy, use the 5400
      rpm, they never wear out.

      --
      /apz, Never insult an alligator until you've crossed the river.

    8. Re:It's been said before by Cramer · · Score: 1

      If they are both the same make and model from the same manufacturer, they are both equally statistically likely to fail. Odds are, they will not both fail at the same time. However, they are highly likely to both fail within the same time period. When they were built makes little difference as running time is a greater contributor to failure than shelf age. I had two 160G drives (same make/model) built nearly a year apart in different factories (Maylasia and Thailand) installed in the same system (same running history -- RAID0 so almost identical access even) die within two days of each other.

      Therefore, when one fails, replace both of them. Or better yet, use two different drives... say a Hitachi and a Seagate.

    9. Re:It's been said before by afidel · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Amen, generally within 5-10% of the cheapest prices on pricewatch and you don't get jerked around or lead on a wild goose chase trying to correct the merchants inventory errors.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    10. Re:It's been said before by IdleTime · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure, but it seems like some of you have very bad experiences with harddrives?

      In my 20 years with PC's I have never had a single HD failure, not once!

      This is definatly a drive I'd look at. it would allow me to run Oracle testcases and several database versions and Oracle Apps for testing purposes on my home PC. 400gb is not that much really :)

      --
      If you mod me down, I *will* introduce you to my sister!
    11. Re:It's been said before by ezzzD55J · · Score: 1

      I need about 500GB and something that is reliable. I'm looking at 3 250GB drives with raid5 which should be close enough to 500GB after the hardrive manufacturers stretching of the facts and formatting.

      3*250GB in raid5 is only 2*250gb of raw storage due to a parity disk..

    12. Re:It's been said before by ed1park · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Here are some interesting numbers:

      $250 per drive
      400GB per drive
      4 drives
      1.2 TB in Raid 5

      Total cost $1,000
      or $0.83 per MB.

      So there you have it. A terabyte file server for about $1000 will be a reality soon enough. Nice. Serial ata will lessen cable clutter, and only 4 drives will be doable in any spare decent case and power supply.

      Hopefully it won't take too long for prices to drop to $250.

      Of course Raid of any level is no replacement for a full backup, but it's certainly better than nothing or relying on a single drive no matter how good the quality/warranty.

    13. Re:It's been said before by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...which is 500 GB, like he asked for.

    14. Re:It's been said before by ezzzD55J · · Score: 1
      " ...which is 500 GB, like he asked for."

      Well, indeed, he said 500 GB "after the hardrive manufacturers stretching of the facts and formatting.", so I presumed he wanted 500*1024*1024*1024 bytes after formatting, and not 500.000.000.000 bytes before formatting..

    15. Re:It's been said before by jms · · Score: 1

      Remember when terraserver.com first came out and it was the coolest site of the day because it had an incredibly huge one terabyte database?

      What a difference six years makes.

    16. Re:It's been said before by Detritus · · Score: 1

      There's a thunderstorm out there with your name on it :-).

      --
      Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
    17. Re:It's been said before by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      Of the 10 or so guys I talk hardware with, all shop newegg.com almost exclusively for hardware, with only the occasional "5pm need it now" run to a local vendor. Newegg is fairly cheep, they have reasonable shipping, (free on a lot of stuff) and a very liberal return policy for newly purchased items. I can attest to about 12 complete, badass systems, with 95% of the parts purchased from newegg. We're a happy bunch of newegg customers, and have been so for three+ years.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    18. Re:It's been said before by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Many of the hard drive makers are now switching to Fluid Dynamic Bearings in drives which should in theory make them more reliable, and probably quieter and cooler (due to less friction). I haven't been able to get my hands on one, but I'm certainly tired of these drives running so hot and loud.

      But as it has been for the last few years, it's better to go with a cheap mirror then a larger stand alone drive if you aren't feeling a space crunch.

    19. Re:It's been said before by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just wait until we get an array of these types of comments.

    20. Re:It's been said before by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      Well, indeed, he said 500 GB "after the hardrive manufacturers stretching of the facts and formatting.", so I presumed he wanted 500*1024*1024*1024 bytes after formatting, and not 500.000.000.000 bytes before formatting..

      A 500 byte RAID 5 array? Wow that would store a small text file or about a dozen first posts on slashdot....

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    21. Re:It's been said before by WuphonsReach · · Score: 1

      My question is, where do you go to buy a harddrive nowadays at a good price. I've been looking at pricewatch for sometime, and I realized today that the prices there are too low to be true. Plus if you look at the feedback its miserable.

      pricescan.com for the price searching, then either NewEgg, TheNerds.net, Computers4Sure or MWave. I've done business with all 4 companies with nary a complaint.

      Best prices, barring sales/rebates, are the 160GB drives if you're only looking at $/GB. However, once you factor in electricity costs (a 10W drive running 24x7 eats roughly $0.60/mo), the 200GB drives may win out over the course of a year.

      Electricity costs are why it's foolish to build a 15-drive array using 80GB drives instead of a 5-drive array using 250GB drives. Not only do you have more drives that can fail, but they likely put off the 3x same thermal load as the fewer 250GB drives, and power requirements between the 80GB drive and the 250GB drive might only differ by 20%. So that 15-drive array is sucking down 150W while the 5-drive array is sipping down 50W (roughly $6/mo cost differential).

      --
      Wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?
  14. Backups... by CompSurfer · · Score: 5, Interesting

    But the only thing short of a really long tape that you can backup these things to in one media is another 400GB hdd. (it would still be 86 4.7GB DVDs)

    1. Re:Backups... by anthonyclark · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A LTO-2 tape will hold 400GB compressed, 200GB uncompressed. The LTO-1 (200GB compressed) library I use to back up my little corner of the net can hold 7.2TB worth of data.

      Of course, those tapes cost like 50 bucks each and the drives cost several thousand...

      A large and *affordable* backup medium would be nice.

      --
      ----- Documentation is worth it just to be able to answer all your mail with 'RTFM' - Alan Cox.
    2. Re:Backups... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      That's why we (not me, or my organization, I use the global we) are rapidly progressing toward never making backups, and just using RAID for everything. It's faster, it's just as reliable if you have some way to copy the data to a remote location, and it's always on-line. They aren't the answer to EVERY problem but the future is in clustering. Clusters for data, clusters for most processing. Work continues on distributed filesystems. Imagine if every PC in your enterprise had a 400GB disk in it and all but say 100GB of it was used for network storage. You could have triple redundancy and in a network of 300 computers you would still have 300*300/3 or 30,000 GB online. If you use the redundancy both for speed (a cluster pulled here, a cluster pulled there) and for security (obvious) then this becomes quite a reasonable way to store data. Most-needed data can be replicated more times for more speed and reliability, at the obvious cost of storage space. This is the principle that google works upon, using oodles of cheap community hardware. It doesn't work for everything, but it ought to work pretty well for most types of storage.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:Backups... by trippinonbsd · · Score: 2, Informative

      Just remember that RAID won't help you if you have a coupted filesystem, angry employee, or a virus. Tape or some other form of backup which can't always be accessed has advantages.

    4. Re:Backups... by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 1
      I have [off the top of my head] almost a TB of hdd spining in my house.
      Yet my backups generally fit on a DVD or two, some on CD-R's [Wife's system, my main system, my dev system, client computers, kid1 system, kid2 system, NAT drives.]


      Much of what I have doesn't need a backup - is that not that case with most people?


      A typical scenario is to build out a system, make an image backup to a DVD or two, depending on how many apps it has on it, then just keep backups of actual data.
      MP3s? I have 25GB - they don't change, they don't need backups.
      TV Shows recorded on my ATI wonder? No big loss, it's just TV. I make VCD's if I don't want to watch it on the computer.
      Home movies get put on DVD's... there are dozens of gigs laying around un-edited, in the "to-do" queue, but the original tapes are still around.


      Would a hdd failure take time to recover from? Yes, but not the end of the world.


      I agree, backups of large drives are a pain, and Image backups are the best, but how many people really have that much data that needs constant backups?


      It is not bad for a geeks like us, but I guess most people don't really know where there data are.


      Pop quiz - does your Dad know where is Outlook Express mail files and address book (.WAB file) are kept?

      --
      This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
    5. Re:Backups... by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That's very true. Presumably companies will end up with a usually-offline RAID which is used for backups ere long. Having dual online RAIDs and one offline except for backups probably makes the most sense overall, given the high cost of tape drives and tapes these days.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:Backups... by Cramer · · Score: 1

      See Also: eBay

      I don't know if you can find LTO gear on the cheap (haven't looked), but DDS and AIT gear is readily available.

    7. Re:Backups... by Dun+Malg · · Score: 1
      Much of what I have doesn't need a backup - is that not that case with most people?

      That is usualy true with individuals, yes. Commercial enterprises, however, are a different sort of situation. I have no need to back up my porn MPEG collection, so there's about 1.5 terrabytes I don't worry about. A cinematic special effects house, well, they might very well have 1.5TB of MPG video to back up every few days. I have a couple hundred megs of source code, but the incremental changes are negligible and I can back them up by burning a CD week or so. MicroSoft, on the other hand, probably has a couple hundred megs of changes to their source code library every week or so, so they'd want more than my "occasional CD" method. I download my banking and investment info to my laptop and back it up on my server every few weeks and call that good enough. Mellon Global Investments, from whom I get my investment info, probably has a more rigorous backup protocol.

      It's all about need. You and I are all the way at one end of the spectrum, so our backup needs are hardly representative.

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    8. Re:Backups... by Greger47 · · Score: 2, Funny
      To bad jpegs are already compressed....

      /greger

    9. Re:Backups... by slapmesilly · · Score: 1

      Backing up your hard drives is the best reason to get this drive! You can backup your smaller 80's and 160's with this drive. You could even backup all your systems at your home with one drive (probably a couple of times over).

      Tape hasn't kept up with disk capacities. So the only cost effective backup media solution is another hard drive. If you need the backups offsite, you can put it in a USB enclosure (or removeable tray) and ship it.

      --
      --"I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it." Klaatu, The Day the Earth Stood Still(1955)
    10. Re:Backups... by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 1
      I guess, as an afterthought, if you need to do backups, the cost is worth it, and having higher density disks in no way changes the equation of what it is worth to do your backups.

      for individuals, a new 400GB disk is good news. It just means normal folk will be able to affort two 250GB disks all that much sooner, and just keep redundand copies.

      Disk drives are getting to be a commodity the loss of which shouldn't be much more disconcerting than the death of a VCR...

      --
      This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
    11. Re:Backups... by bluGill · · Score: 1

      I would hope that companies are not that stupid. Backups come in many flavors. From the on-site copy for when you accidentally delete something you should have kept to the copy in Europe (until Mars opens up...) in case your location falls into the sea.

      Of course not all companies need all levels of protection. However if your protection is just one level of RAID that is turned off you are asking for trouble. Eventually someone will delete a critical file and not realize it until the backup has been updated. (though if you are smart you will alternate your secondary on-line RAID with the backup weekly)

      It isn't going overboard at all to have 24 full backups, each covering a month, just in case.

      Remember though, there is no one size fits all. I don't allow critical data on my system so I don't back it up.

    12. Re:Backups... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      If you have a RAID big enough to be too big to back up with tape, and you aren't using some kind of storage system that maintains older versions of files, you are probably making a mistake.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    13. Re:Backups... by ezzzD55J · · Score: 1

      Indeed true, but snapshotting filesystems (or block devices) (storing every block that's used in the live FS or a snapshot only once) can fix that.

  15. nice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Pretty fast, pretty big. I like the 16mb buffer. But the real question is how much does it cost ;)

  16. Re: Huh? by Performaman · · Score: 1

    I really haven't heard of bus-powered portable drives in this capacity before.
    But that's just me.

    --

    I have gas, but my car uses petrol.
  17. Bah! Still too small... by plj · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Now this would be something. ;-)

    --
    “Wait for Hurd if you want something real” –Linus
    1. Re:Bah! Still too small... by badriram · · Score: 1

      except that it is not one hard drive. More than likely they have 4 250GB hard drives in them. I have a similar one but it is 320GB with two 160GB hard drives in them from lacie.

    2. Re:Bah! Still too small... by hearingaid · · Score: 1
      I believe the Big Disk is 5 200GB drives internally. But hey, it still looks like one drive to the micro it's connected to.

      But it's not a 3.5" drive. Now that'd be something :)

      --

      my old sig used to be funny, but then slashcode ate it and now it's not funny anymore

    3. Re:Bah! Still too small... by nosferatu-man · · Score: 1

      Right. Five 200gb spindles == five times the likelihood of a catastrophic failure. No, thanks.

      'jfb

      --
      To spur "enterprise Linux," Big Bang, the distributed two-phase commit.
    4. Re:Bah! Still too small... by Keruo · · Score: 1

      like you said, but this would be something

      --
      There are no atheists when recovering from tape backup.
  18. price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    seagate is the most expensive of maxtor and wd and hitachi, not worth it in my opinion.

    1. Re:price by Alyred · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Sure, but on the other hand, it's a hell of a lot quieter. 2.0 bels at idle is something like the sound of rustling leaves.

      Very useful for those multimedia/movie playing home-built Tivo type machines.

      But maybe that's just me.

    2. Re:price by 0x0d0a · · Score: 1

      Yes, but heat, noise, and lifetime are also factors.

      If you just want bytes for the penny, WD is probably the way to go.

    3. Re:price by bhtooefr · · Score: 1, Informative

      In my experience, Seagate's not been quieter (well, it's quieter than my old Bigfoot CY...) I've NEVER seen a Seagate fail, though, out of about 20 I've worked with. I've seen one Maxtor barf once, and the FAT was destroyed on the drive. The other five I've seen are fine. Western Digital is SHIT. I've seen (probably) five of them, and four have died. Hitachi/IBM? Seven of them, one was a 60GXP (shall I say more?), and the other fried the registry on Win2K when it was handled normally. As for Samsung, I've had decent luck with them - lots of damaged sectors on mine, though, but it ran Windows 98, and it was an HP preload (hey, this was before I knew Windows was crap, and same for HP).

    4. Re:price by Rtech · · Score: 1

      Seagate? I've never used them. I've had a Quantum Firebrand or whatever as my first drive ever, still using it somewhat. Ever since then I've been a WD fan. I've got a 45, two 80s, and a 30, all from WD. The 45 I've had for about 3 or 4 years, and the others aren't exactly new either. I haven't seen any reason not to use WD, and I'll keep using them until I have a problem with them.

    5. Re:price by stars_are_number_1 · · Score: 1

      Man, don't say that.

      About 2 months ago I installed a 250GB WD drive for multimedia. The last thing I need is that thing croaking!

    6. Re:price by Killjoy_NL · · Score: 1

      Mod this guy up, he's just giving us his experiences with harddrives. We might not agree, but I hardly see a giant flame-war coming up between the brandnames ?

      Personally, I love Maxtor, hate WD and have a love/hate relationship with IBM/Hitachi.

      Haven't had a Samsung though.

      --
      This is the sig that says NI (again)
    7. Re:price by bhtooefr · · Score: 1

      No, no, I got flamebait for the Windows knock. I should have been more clear - Windows 98 sucks, and HP bottom-of-the-line consumer grade hardware sucks.

  19. system requirement by gandalphthegreen · · Score: 5, Funny

    I suppose that this is part of the technology that makes a Windows Longhorn installation possible.

    1. Re:system requirement by asavage · · Score: 1

      You still won't have enough space to install anything though.

  20. Sweet... by FoolishBose · · Score: 0, Redundant

    More storage space for my ever growing collection of porn. I do no need 400GB...really!

  21. 5GB USB Flash drive on sale now! by cybermint · · Score: 0

    Only $19,999 for a limited time only! Get out your credit cards!

    Until it gets down to about $150, I can't see myself getting one.

    1. Re:5GB USB Flash drive on sale now! by Cyb3rBull3ts · · Score: 1

      It will be down to $150 when the 10GB model comes out.

    2. Re:5GB USB Flash drive on sale now! by MoonBuggy · · Score: 1

      It's not flash, it's a microdrive with a USB interface rather than the usual CF.

      I'd say it's useful rather than innovative, and apparently it's "Safely encased in its sleek round shell, its robust design and high shock tolerance enables mobility and makes it as convenient as a USB thumb drive". I must say I'm impressed with the robustness of my iPod mini and assuming that these things use similar drives I would assume they'll be considerably cheaper since they don't need any touchwheels, MP3 playback or top class design - I actually pick up and use an MP3 player so I want it to be well made, I just pull a flash drive out of my bag and plug it in, as long as it's tough I don't care what it looks like.

  22. 400GB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    OMG I'm wet.
    Seriously though, the issue is the cost per MB. I'm guessing that it will cost ~ $1 per MB and there are cheaper (albeit smaller) HD with similar performance out there on the market. Stick with those till WB and Hitachi(IBM) come out with their versions and competition drives down cost. Btw, that 100 MB is 100 GB.

  23. And the name of this HD model is.... by hellfire · · Score: 3, Funny

    Seagate is the first hdd manufacturer to announce 400 GB 3.5" hard drives.

    Seagate tenatively plans to call this line of hard drives the "Pornotopia" series.

    --

    "All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"

    1. Re:And the name of this HD model is.... by fungus · · Score: 2, Funny

      And Seagate suggests the drives work best with the new Sempr0n AMD processor.

  24. Re: Huh? by chas7926 · · Score: 1

    You are right, now that I think about it. All I really see advertised are 128MB devices. I guess an even 100MB device might be useful for something. :)

    --
    Linux User #296508 Get Counted!
  25. Re:Sad news ... Stephen King dead at 59 by hambonewilkins · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    I know, I know, don't feed the trolls. But, I don't get it. Why would you either a) take the time to always post this lame entry or b) have a bot post it for you? What do you get from it? You don't see people's reactions to it. Slashdotters already know it is a lame hoax. So, I guess, what's the point?

    --

    God Bless America. Why? Did it sneeze?
  26. Pr0n by LittleLebowskiUrbanA · · Score: 2, Funny

    Has anybody tested the pr0n transfer rates on these?

  27. What about Hitachi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hitachi appears to have a 400GB drive to market already. I can find Hitachi 400GB drives on Pricewatch, but no mention of the Seagate variant anywhere.

  28. 16MB Cache? by cerebralsugar · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I wonder if 16MB is actually an aid to performance on these drives? What kind of algorithms do they use to ensure efficient usage of all that space? Can anyone here comment?

    I seem to recall in chip design that the larger the cash does not always equal more performance, if the cache manager has to search the whole cache everytime time (hash?) to deliver what needs to be used.

    --
    Easy guys, I put my pants on one leg at a time. The difference is after I put on my pants I make gold records!
    1. Re:16MB Cache? by hearingaid · · Score: 1
      Yeah. That's why sometimes you get multilevel caching.

      Personally, if I had a 100MB cache, I'd want to cache the cache. Unless the 100MB cache is in DDR RAM, not stored on the drive. Now that'd be sweet. But Seagate, not known for its history of high-performance drives, probably isn't doing that.

      --

      my old sig used to be funny, but then slashcode ate it and now it's not funny anymore

    2. Re:16MB Cache? by Ignignot · · Score: 1

      There is always a benefit to getting a bigger cache. The only problem is that there are diminishing returns for how much you increase the cache by. The first time you increase your cache by 2x you might experience a 60% performance increase... then do another 2x and you would probably only get another 40% increase out of it. However they can just use the same scheme as your RAM / virtual memory's lookup table. In fact, I'm sure they did just that so they didn't have to reinvent the wheel. Your computer has been handling memory sizes of over 1 GB probably. 16 MB isn't going to be hard for current methods to handle.

      --
      I submitted this story last night, and it didn't get posted.
    3. Re:16MB Cache? by harrkev · · Score: 1

      Trust me, it does not matter.

      First, let's assume a 10,000 RPM drive. That means 166.7 revolutions per second. This means that there are 6 milliseconds per revolution. Six milliseconds is a LOOOOOONG time in terms of digital electronics.

      Let's assume that it takes 50 nanoseconds (and I am pretty sure that it is shorter than this) to read a page of memory (assume 4 bytes wide). This means that in that 6 milliseconds, it could read 480,000 bytes (almost 1/2 MB), assuming no math errors. If an efficient cache is implemented, then it should be a piece of cake!

      --
      "-1 Troll" is the apparently the same as "-1 I disagree with you."
    4. Re:16MB Cache? by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I cannot comment very intelligently, but I can say that I have read that even modern 7200 RPM drives could really use more cache than the 8MB that the more expensive ones tend to come with now. I seem to recall reading that they should have more like 32MB or 64MB and that only cost is keeping that from happening today since you can get that much memory on a single chip now - if you're willing to pay for it.

      P.S. If more cash does not equal more performance, you are not spending your money carefully :)

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:16MB Cache? by morcheeba · · Score: 1

      Hopefully a chip would have some sort of CAM to help it do its search in a massively-parallel fashion, but hard drives are a whole 'nother ball game because of the latencies involved.

      Searching the cache must be much faster than actually accessing the desired memory (a cache miss). In SDRAM, you've only got to be much faster than 100 nSec. With a drive you've got more like 5 mSec (5000000 nSec) - practially an eternity, even if you do it without a hardware assist.

      What I'm getting at is that the ratio of HardDriveAccess:SdramAccess >> SdramAccess:Sram access, but I don't have good numbers to back that up with.

    6. Re:16MB Cache? by Cramer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Read the snippet about Command Queuing. That takes a good bit of memory on the drive controller to handle well. As Seagate makes some serious SCSI drives, I think they'll make good use of 16MB.

    7. Re:16MB Cache? by zx75 · · Score: 1

      True, if you can't search space efficiently, adding more won't help. However, 16MB vs 8MB of cache that is on a similar order of magnitude as RAM in terms of speed, even if you have to search twice as much space as an 8MB cache, is still blazingly faster than HD read speeds.

      The real question though is how often do we read multiple times from a file location that is in the most recent 16MB accessed from a harddrive, but is not in the most recent 8MB accessed? A larger cache does start to become less efficient when we store more information that we never use. You can only pre-cache so much information, but there will come a point where you will not go back to a specific sector, but it will remain in cache for some time. Thus it will contribute to slowing the time taken to search the cache, but will not contribute to speeding up disk accesses.

      --
      This is not a sig.
    8. Re:16MB Cache? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks drinkypoo that was great. Always a pleasure to read your sexy, sex-charged, sexual posts.

    9. Re:16MB Cache? by WuphonsReach · · Score: 1

      A larger cache does start to become less efficient when we store more information that we never use. You can only pre-cache so much information, but there will come a point where you will not go back to a specific sector, but it will remain in cache for some time. Thus it will contribute to slowing the time taken to search the cache, but will not contribute to speeding up disk accesses.

      There-in may lie the rub... except that memory is more then a few orders of magnitude faster then the drive. (200x? 800x?)

      When the speed disparity is that large... there's a good chance that the large and inefficient cache is going to perform better then (or at least, no worse then) a small efficient cache.

      The bigger problem that I see is that larger caches take longer to flush to disk, which may be problematic in a sudden power-outage.

      --
      Wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?
  29. Speeds? by anthonyclark · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Meh, size is nothing, speed is everything. Having used a 10k and a 15k rpm scsi disk in my workstation I'm far more eager to see faster rather than larger.

    Now 20k or 30k rpm? *that* would make me drool :-)

    --
    ----- Documentation is worth it just to be able to answer all your mail with 'RTFM' - Alan Cox.
    1. Re:Speeds? by tntguy · · Score: 3, Funny

      Perhaps, but the drool would evaporate from the generated heat before it even left the corner of your mouth.

    2. Re:Speeds? by jfengel · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Rather than suffer the machanical difficulties associated with a 20k rpm drive, putting a stripe set across three 7200 rpm drives will move data very quickly and last longer. Yeah, the seek time is still slower, but the sustained rate is just as high, and smart caching will eliminate a lot of the differences in seek time.

      That said, I'd adore a drive that fast for my swap space.

    3. Re:Speeds? by ron_ivi · · Score: 3, Informative
      With higher density platters often comes more speed.

      Higher density = more "bits - per - revolution"
      More "bits/revolution" * same RPM = faster data rate

      (of course if they just added platters, you wouldn't get faster - but it seems they're getting more bits by increasing the density/platter)

    4. Re:Speeds? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
      Meh...Having used a 10k and a 15k rpm

      DoubleMeh!

      For large transfers:

      15k rpm * 30GB/platter is less than 7.5k rpm * 100GB/platter.

      For small transfers:

      The 16MB cache is (probably) bigger than your SCSI drive's
    5. Re:Speeds? by ezzzD55J · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Generally the bottleneck with regular use is seeks though, not bulk transfers.

      Also the entire array will last only 1/3rd of the time of an individual disk, assuming a poisson failure rate (which is reasonable) because if any of the disks break, the entire array breaks.

      You can do parallel seeks though, so the whole set can stand more of a thrashing than a single drive..

    6. Re:Speeds? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      That said, I'd adore a drive that fast for my swap space.

      Why not just put your swap on a file that's striped?

    7. Re:Speeds? by Mr.+Bad+Example · · Score: 1

      > I'm far more eager to see faster rather than larger.

      You sound like my ex-girlfriend.

    8. Re:Speeds? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The seek is slower? The seek is faster on a stripe, provided your raid controller/algorithm is worth a crap. While one drive is reading or writing, the next drive can be seeking. Depending on the model, the data, and the type of access your application is doing, your seek time should drop to half, 1/n where n is the number of drives, or basically nothing if the seek takes less time to complete than the read/write. Now, these numbers are only for drives with the same seek time and granted, a higher density drive will seek further in terms of data for the same amount of head travel, but I think you are neglecting to consider the issue of seeking during reads... Anyway 7200*3=21600 so your total rotational speed is higher with the three 7200s than it would be with one 20k RPM drive, meaning your aggregate transfer should be faster and your seek time using a stripe should not be diminished, and with three drives should be faster. Again, unless your raid controller is craptacular.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    9. Re:Speeds? by ryanvm · · Score: 1

      Now 20k or 30k rpm? *that* would make me drool.

      Would that be from the platter shrapnel that gets lodged in your brain when it self-destructs?

    10. Re:Speeds? by Compuser · · Score: 1

      I am not a HD wiz so I am sure I am missing something,
      but...
      You got your disks sitting there all nice and idle
      then you ask the heads to go to some place. How
      does having ten heads do it work faster than one?

    11. Re:Speeds? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Also the entire array will last only 1/3rd of the time of an individual disk, assuming a poisson failure rate (which is reasonable) because if any of the disks break, the entire array breaks.

      RAID-5. Slower rights, but reads are just as fast and you have fault tolerance of at least one drive.

    12. Re:Speeds? by atrus · · Score: 1
      Striping disks is ideal for when you have a large streaming read. The disks can be synchronized as to stagger the reading, and you in theory can get almost 2x the read speed. Striping sucks when you have multiple concurrent reads from different parts of the disk (which is very seek dependent). In a stripe, since the data is stored on two disks, both disks will need to seek to the same spot to perform a read. Whereas in a mirror, since each disk is an identical copy, you get much better throughput on random access since each disk can be reading a different section of the disk concurrently (and not have to synchronize).

      Of course this is only considering reads. Writes are another story. Striping will give you high streaming rates again, whereas mirroring won't see any speed improvement, and probably a small drop in performance unless your controller has a lot of onboard battery backed cache and can delay writes.

    13. Re:Speeds? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The initial seek will be no faster, but every seek after the first will be. The OS sees a disk, and it asks the "disk" for a certain amount of data. The second drive can be seeking at the same time as the first drive, so when the second drive is asked for data by the RAID controller, it has already seeked to where it needs to be. This is true of the third, fourth, fifth etc disks as well.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    14. Re:Speeds? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Again, this is only true for a crappy RAID controller. One that is at least decent will be seeking the second disk while the first disk is reading. Your initial seek is no faster than it would be with a single drive but there is no penalty for seek on the second drive and subsequent seeks are 1/n or basically free since the drive has already done its seek while the other drive(s) is/are reading.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    15. Re:Speeds? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > That said, I'd adore a drive that fast for my swap space.

      Try ramdisk.

  30. No problem by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 5, Informative

    Get multiple drives and RAID them together. A 2-disc RAID-1 is quite reliable, but you can go for more if you are really concerned. Also, go SCSI instead of IDE. SCSI drives tend to be engineered to a higher standard, and are generally warenteed longer to boot.

    However, don't bitch about the price. You WILL pay more for less storage, that's the cost of reliability.

    1. Re:No problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, go SCSI instead of IDE. SCSI drives tend to be engineered to a higher standard, and are generally warenteed longer to boot.

      yeah, and loud as hell. You won't see one of those bastards in my home systems, that's for sure.

    2. Re:No problem by Dark+Lord+Seth · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Unfortunately, both are solutions that will only tackle a few problems by rather brute methods, such as RAID redundancy. ( Hehehe )

      What IT currently needs are solid state harddisks. FAR higher reliablity, far higher speeds, close to no issues anymore with cooling... How do you think 40gb SS HDs would sell? They'd sell like hot cakes for database solutions: just slap 10 of them together in a RAID 0 configuration and you just got yourself one 400gb drive with speeds that are somewhere between SCSI 15k access times and RAM access times, yet still with a better reliability then any IDE or SCSI system can offer.

      Remember that for enterprise customers, reliability and speed sell. Not low pricing or capacity.

    3. Re:No problem by mpcooke3 · · Score: 1

      To be honest I think this is very similar to the fact that system builders configure machines with high spec CPU and low RAM because users are stupid and buy these systems. Hard disk manufactures make big hard disks that die quickly because users understand gigabytes and not Mean time to failure numbers.

      Normal users NEED systems with more memory and hard disks that don't fail within 2 years. Because normal users don't know what RAID is and don't backup.

    4. Re:No problem by Cramer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      IDE drives have the shittiest reliability. And it's getting worse, not better. Several years ago, in my experience building fileservers, Maxtor had a failure rate of 25%. Right. Out. Of. The. Box. And that was for 80G drives that they'd been making for several years at that point. Today, they have a 60% failure rate over the first week (about the same OOB.) And this is with their "top of the line, enterprise class" crap. You'd think with a 3yr warantee, they'd spin the damn thing up at least once before shoveling 20 of them in a box.

      SCSI is the only way to get drives that have actually been through any testing. Each drive is individually tested; however, with IDE, only a small sample of drives are tested. This is one reason SCSI is more expensive. But demand, perception, and the money in the enterprise market place also factor into the cost... a 140G SCSI drive does NOT cost 1000$ to build and test. They use the exact same servo hardware as their IDE "white trash" cousins (in many cases -- 10k and 15k speeds aside.)

      [Disclaimer: I don't have as much experience with Seagate's IDE (PATA or SATA) lineup. But I can say, I've never had any Seagate drive, SCSI or IDE, fail right out of the box or shortly there after. Of the few that have failed, 2 overheated and melted their logic boards (temp. swapped with another drive to fetch the data :-)) which Seagate replaced. Another half dozen developed "stiction" problems after several years and needed a little help to get spun back up.]

    5. Re:No problem by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 0, Troll

      I think they'd sell like crap because they cost too much. Unfortunately, technology doesn't happen by wishing. Solid state drives are VERY expensive. Even if they were mass produced, they'd still be very expensive since they wimply aren't cheap to make.

      I agree that in the long term we need to get away from this magnetic platter system to something faster and more reliable. However, as it stands, there are no other solutions available for a consumer level price that will get the job done.

    6. Re:No problem by mrchaotica · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, that's great, but also really really expensive (for now, anyway)

      If you really want something like that, I remember hearing about a PCI card with something like 8 or 16 RAM slots, that was made to be used as a drive - you could get one of those and have up to ~16GB (Is 1GB the biggest size for PC-2700?), but it'd cost a heck of a lot of money.

      I'd give you a link, but a cursory Google search didn't turn up anything

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    7. Re:No problem by afidel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Wrong. Solid state memory has MORE failures per time period. Check out the IBM chipkill memory whitepaper. IBM has decided that multiword ECC simply isn't enough. To get acceptable reliability you need multiword ECC AND RAID across modules.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    8. Re:No problem by Jason1729 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Stop buying off eBay. I've bought about 10 Maxtor and Seagate IDE HDs for personal use in the past 5 years, and I've had 0 failures. I know that's pretty lucky (and I do keep carefuly backups), but come on, 60% failure right out of the box? Who dropped the box before you tried them?

      Of course now that I've said that, 60% of my drives will probably die in the next few days :).

      Jason
      ProfQuotes

    9. Re:No problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I remember hearing about a PCI card with something like 8 or 16 RAM slots, that was made to be used as a drive

      Yeah- that would be great until you roll over to get your bag of cheetohs and trip over the power cord with your frickin clown feet and unplug the system, moron.

    10. Re:No problem by AKnightCowboy · · Score: 1
      Maxtor had a failure rate of 25%. Right. Out. Of. The. Box. And that was for 80G drives that they'd been making for several years at that point. Today, they have a 60% failure rate over the first week (about the same OOB.)

      Did these drives fall out of the back of a truck, bounce a few yards and land on your front doorstep by any chance? I've bought four 200GB Maxtor SATA drives and two 200GB Maxtor ATA drives in the past year and all have been fine. The 80 GB Maxtor ATA drive I have has been going fine for the past 3 years. I just bought a new 250 GB ATA drive so we'll see if I can get one that fails at which point I guess I take it back and get another.

    11. Re:No problem by Cramer · · Score: 1

      I don't buy drives on ebay. The 80G drives were by the case (it takes a few of them to amass 1TB :-)) The 250G ones are from our system builders (assmeblers, whatever) who buy them by the case.

      Even the 80G Maxtor in my Dell workstation (8300, 9 months old) failed. Dell replaced it with a WD drive. That speaks volumes to me.

    12. Re:No problem by Fweeky · · Score: 1

      25-60% failure rate? Sounds like you need to find a better supplier for your disks :/

    13. Re:No problem by Cramer · · Score: 1

      Yeah... Seagate instead of Maxtor. ('tho I'm gonna give WD a go. They're good enough for Tivo...)

    14. Re:No problem by EulerX07 · · Score: 1

      However, don't bitch about the price. You WILL pay more for less storage, that's the cost of reliability.

      You do know that the I stands for inexpensive? The whole point of having redundant drives is that the drives can be much cheaper and you still have much more reliability then very expensive standalone drives, because both drives that are mirrored must fail at the same exact time to lose everything.

      Quick canadian price check :
      Maxtor Atlas 10K IV 143 Gb : 934 CAN$
      Maxtor SATA 200Gb, 8 mb cache : 205 CAN$

      My advice is buy a nice motherboard that support RAID 0+1 with 4 SATA connectors. Buy 4 of those drives for 820 CAN$, and you'll have 400Gb of mirrored HD space for 114$ less then a single 143Gb SCSI drive. Or follow Sycraft's advice, get a RAED (expensive) and spend thousands of dollards for less HD space. Add more $$$ if your motherboard doesn't have onboard SCSI.

      Most "deluxe" boards from asus come with onboard SATA RAID nowadays, haven't seen any recent one with onboard SCSI. If you aren't running a server, you shouldn't even be thinking about SCSI imho, altough this was not true 4-5 years ago for bleeding edge enthusiasts.

    15. Re:No problem by daft_one · · Score: 0

      "You do know that the I stands for inexpensive?"

      Depends whom you ask. Most people I know would say it stands for "independent." Since they're... you know... separate. And if one fails in anything but "raid" 0, one can pull it out and replace it without touching the working drive(s). (since there's nothing redundant at all about lvl 0, these same associates typically say it's not really even "raid")
      Kind of makes more sense than thinking that whoever invented the concept had it in for manufacturers of particularly expensive drives though, doesn't it. If you happen to stop and think about it. ;-)

    16. Re:No problem by patchmaster · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure exactly how loud hell is, but my 15k RPM SCSI drive makes very little noise. The CPU fans make considerably more noise than the SCSI drive and the ATA drives put together.

    17. Re:No problem by Mistah+Blue · · Score: 1

      Actually, the I stands for Independent now.

    18. Re:No problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Probably not the manufacturer, but a middleman passing off disks that failed someone else's QA process.

    19. Re:No problem by Doppler00 · · Score: 0

      If you see an IDE or SATA drive with only a 1 year waranty, run away! It will probably only last that 1 year. If you get 3 years out of it, you are very, very, lucky.

      It is possible though to find some IDE drives with 3 year warranties, but it's more rare nowdays. I would never buy a drive with less than that.

    20. Re:No problem by Detritus · · Score: 2, Informative

      Do you mean this white paper? Your URL is broken.

      --
      Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
    21. Re:No problem by Cramer · · Score: 1

      Nice theory, but it falls flat when you've ordered the drives directly from Maxtor -- and they arrive with a customs form on them. Face it, quality and reliability circled the drain some time ago... Make 'em cheap and make 'em quick. It's better on the bottom line to get people to buy new drives every six months instead of using the same one for 5 years. (now we're back to one of the reasons SCSI drives are so expensive.)

      Assuming a human loads them in the box, that's the only place a person handles the drives (already sealed in their static bag) before they come out of the case. I'm reasonablly sure humans are involved in loading the retail boxes. But I could be wrong -- people are expensive, even in Thailand.

    22. Re:No problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      well that would explain why the card he's talking about has a built in battery wouldn't it?

    23. Re:No problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only time I've had failure problems like that is with one of my systems.

      Here's what happens. One of my boxes is an AMD based box. If you shut it off, you can still see a little led on the mobo. If it is still on and I plug a drive in, it's fried. Yep, I've done it twice not thinking about it.

      However, if I disconnect the ps from e-, then no problems. I suspect you may have HUA errors like I did.

      Stupid fucker, learn from my mistakes

    24. Re:No problem by rew · · Score: 1

      Also, go SCSI instead of IDE.

      Ehmmm. As maxtor stopped making the 5400 "high capacity, low performance" line of disks, we've been forced to start buying 7200rpm drives. Turns out they break down more often. We've got enough disks in the office to start doing statistics now...

      SCSI tends to be engineered "high performance", which translates to heat, which might cause premature breakdowns. I'm not so sure I like high performance SCSI that much.....

    25. Re:No problem by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Actually, It didn't. I think the idea was to use a UPS or something, or copy the data off a normal disk every boot.

      There's a reason it never became popular enough that other people heard of it...

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    26. Re:No problem by Jason1729 · · Score: 1

      I still say the only way you had a 60% failure rate out of the box is if someone dropped the box. My HDs have almost always been out of those cases from tiny stores that buy bulk cases of parts intended for OEM computer assembly and sell them at retail. The only ones I've bought in retail packaging are when big box stores have mail in rebate specials that make them even cheaper.

  31. What's the maximum partition size in WinXP/Win2003 by davegaramond · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Win2k's is 128GB and I was bitten by this once. I bought a 160GB drive, created one big partition with Redhat 7.3, and formatted it as NTFS under Win2k. Win2k displays it as 160GB but actually when the drive is near full, old data was overwritten by the new one!

    Is Win2k's limitation artificial? I'd hate that.

    Well, anyway, I've said goodbye to Windows as my desktop.

  32. Except for Hitachi by UserChrisCanter4 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Hitachi has had 400GB drives (SATA) for a few months now link
    It looks like the only thing unique here is the "highest areal density", meaning (I assume) that Hitachi is using a four platter system, where Seagate's only has three.

    Also, I wonder what problems might arise from 16MB caches on normal desktop machines. One of the issues I seem to recall with larger cache drives is the risk of filesystem corruption. If power is lost while data is sitting in cache, waiting for a write, then you could potentially royally screw up your file or filesystem. Hence, the only 16MB cache drives I've seen are notebook drives (almost always gonna have a battery) and SCSI drives (likely in a server or workstation, which will most likely have a UPS). Before you go countering that these aren't meant for desktop use, keep in mind that DV video, digital photgraphy, and music are all things that home users like the idea of, and they are also the things much more likely to consume massive amounts of storage capacity.

    1. Re:Except for Hitachi by hearingaid · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Hmmm, good point. You could defeat it by giving the HD an internal battery, though, similar to the watch batteries that keep your CMOS time accurate. All it would need would be enough power to allow the cache to flush itself out in the event of a power failure.

      --

      my old sig used to be funny, but then slashcode ate it and now it's not funny anymore

    2. Re:Except for Hitachi by mrchaotica · · Score: 1
      Hitachi is using a four platter system, where Seagate's only has three.
      Which is better, 3 or 4? I'd think that it would be 4, because you could read from 4 places at once, but I'm not all that knowledgable about it...
      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    3. Re:Except for Hitachi by hxnwix · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What you are referring to is properly termed write _buffering_, but few folks call it that. The idea is to queue up a bunch of writes and commit them in a more efficient order or at a more opportune time. That 16 meg can also be used as a read cache. As for data loss, here's what IBM has to say:

      http://www-3.ibm.com/storage/hdd/tech/techlib.ns f/ techdocs/85256AB8006A31E587256A850056972D/$file/dp ea_sp.pdf
      "4.0 Data integrity No more than one sector is lost by hard reset or power down during write operation while write cache is disabled. In case of that hard reset or power down occurs before completion of data transfer from write cache to disk while write cache is enabled, the data remaining in write cache is lost. To prevent customer data lost at power off, the last write access before power off is recommended to be issued after setting write cache disable by command. ..." (quote borrowed from an old usenet post)

      One would hope modern OSes do the equivalent of hdparm -W0 /dev/hdX before powering off rather than just waiting a split second, otherwise these growing buffer sizes will start causing corruption. Seeing as how, IIRC, until patched, win98 didn't even wait for the kernel to cease flushing the system write buffer (never mind various hardware buffers) before halting, I strongly suspect this is one of those glossed over idiosyncrasies that is already causing data loss... just not enough at any one time to particularly bother anyone.

    4. Re:Except for Hitachi by josh42 · · Score: 1

      Hitachi's drives are not applicable to 24hr operation - they include a warning specifically against this. So for servers (which is a lot of where this storage goes), this is the first real 400GB drive.

    5. Re:Except for Hitachi by Hubert_Shrump · · Score: 1

      there's a transcript of a talk given by Dr. Stephen Tweedie where he says


      If you start a write operation to a disk, then even if the power fails in the middle of that sector write, the disk has enough power available, and it can actually steal power from the rotational energy of the spindle; it has enough power to complete the write of the sector that's being written right now. In all cases, the disks make that guarantee.


      that impressed me no end.

      --
      Keep your packets off my GNU/Girlfriend!
    6. Re:Except for Hitachi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Honestly, it would impress me more if the guy who wrote it was a hardware guy instead of a software guy.

    7. Re:Except for Hitachi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yeah, he's probably not even white, either.

  33. Wow 400 GB in a single drive by k4_pacific · · Score: 5, Funny

    That's just amazing. I remember back when I was in college and couldn't afford a good hard drive. Instead, I scrounged several cheap, small drives and an extra IDE card. My PC, built into an old server tower, had seven (7) IDE drives totalling about 5 GB in disk space. There was so much rotating mass, you could balance the PC on its corner and watch the precession.

    --
    Unknown host pong.
    1. Re:Wow 400 GB in a single drive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I had a friend that got seven 5MB SCSI drives. We had to alternate the drives - one right-side-up, the next up-side-down, etc. - or else when he turned the computer on, the computer would spin.

    2. Re:Wow 400 GB in a single drive by eSims · · Score: 4, Funny
      At the risk of sounding on-ups-man some might find this intersting/amusing.

      Due to lack of cash flow I had at one point 22 Drives attached to my poor Duron 700 for almost 200GB of disk space. There were 12 IDE (4 builin, 4 on each of 2 add in cards) the rest were scsi.

      I set it up in a FreeBSD vinum raid5 array and although performance was abysmal I had reliability even though many of the scsi were salvaged 4.5 or 9gb disks!

      Some would call me crazy (or worse), but I got by until better times and was able to purchase a decent drive to replace them.

      --
      I .sig therefore I am!
    3. Re:Wow 400 GB in a single drive by dasmegabyte · · Score: 1

      Heh. In college, I was a member of a group that was sharing Japanese CD games that were never offered in the US. Hard drive space was a premium...i think I had MAYBE 10 gig. But I had access to a number of older CD-ROMs...so, I would rip and compress the CDs until they'd fit two-to-a-CDR, burn them, and share them off these old CD-ROMS. I had 6 of them going...

      --
      Hey freaks: now you're ju
    4. Re:Wow 400 GB in a single drive by haxor.dk · · Score: 1

      "Due to lack of cash flow I had at one point 22 Drives attached to my poor Duron 700 for almost 200GB of disk space. There were 12 IDE (4 builin, 4 on each of 2 add in cards) the rest were scsi."

      Apropos cash flow - what did that drive array cost you in power expenses ? An average IDE hard disk eats ~10 W in idle operation, and I'd suppose SCSi drives are worse due to higher rotational speeds.

  34. Not sure what the market for this is right now by Fooby · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Someone said enterprises, but at only 7,200 RPMs you'd get better performance RAIDing some smaller drives. I guess if you've only got one slot to spare and you've got a lot of DVDs to store and cash to spend then you might buy one of these, but it's going to have to drop in price or increase in RPMs before this gets popular.

    1. Re:Not sure what the market for this is right now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A 7,200 rpm 400gb drive will be faster than a 10,000 rpm 200gb drive if they have the same number of platters.

      Its not just about rpm, its about density.

    2. Re:Not sure what the market for this is right now by hearingaid · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Video capture.

      7200 RPM is quick enough to capture a DV stream; I know, because that's exactly what I use to capture DV. :) But it blows away chunks of drive space; 1 GB = 5 minutes of capture. Each 400GB drive would give you about 30 hours of raw footage. That could help a lot.

      --

      my old sig used to be funny, but then slashcode ate it and now it's not funny anymore

    3. Re:Not sure what the market for this is right now by WuphonsReach · · Score: 1

      7200 RPM is quick enough to capture a DV stream; I know, because that's exactly what I use to capture DV. :) But it blows away chunks of drive space; 1 GB = 5 minutes of capture. Each 400GB drive would give you about 30 hours of raw footage. That could help a lot.

      5400rpm is fast enough to capture a DV stream. Heck, you could probably do it with a 4800rpm laptop drive. DV is only 2.5 megabytes/sec, and the 5400rpm sitting in my machine is capable of 30 megabytes/sec.

      I will grant you that it would be useful to be able to have more working space. I capture to a 100G drive (roughly 2.5 hrs using MJPEG Q20), and have a pair of 200GB drives on which I store the intermediate results and the final output prior to conversion to DVD.

      --
      Wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?
    4. Re:Not sure what the market for this is right now by hearingaid · · Score: 1
      5400rpm is technically fast enough to capture DV, if everything works alright. The problems usually crop up when the drive is significantly fragmented (which unfortunately tends to happen a lot if you use it for editing).

      I've capped to 5400rpm drives, and I don't like it. Going to the 7200rpm drive makes the capture much more reliable: fewer dropped frames.

      The 7200rpm drive also makes life that much nicer when editing. You don't have to wait quite so long when you're throwing all those huge files around in Final Cut.

      And besides, nobody ships 5400rpm drives anymore. 7200rpm is the minimum, at least for new drives.

      --

      my old sig used to be funny, but then slashcode ate it and now it's not funny anymore

    5. Re:Not sure what the market for this is right now by WuphonsReach · · Score: 1

      5400rpm is technically fast enough to capture DV, if everything works alright. The problems usually crop up when the drive is significantly fragmented (which unfortunately tends to happen a lot if you use it for editing).

      Agreed, but then it's generally best to have a defragmented drive anyway for your capture drive. Or at least a dedicated partition that you can defrag quickly. I don't do editing on the capture drive. Also, I'm capturing at 9MB/s (MJPEG Q20), which is a bit more intensive then 2.5MB/s DV. A bad capture for me is 2 dropped frames in a single 2 hour clip... and I haven't decided whether to re-cap or let it ride.

      5400rpm drives do still get made, currently only by Maxtor but Samsung just announced a new line of 5400s. Last I looked, the only 300GB drives out there are 5400rpm. The bigger advantage of the 5400s is temperature. They don't require active cooling, even if the office temperature is 80-90F I don't trust 7200rpm drives to survive long-term unless the office stays below 75F without active airflow across the drive (or some large heatsink attachment).

      --
      Wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?
    6. Re:Not sure what the market for this is right now by hearingaid · · Score: 1
      I'm capping with Final Cut Pro, i.e. to QuickTime, using the mostly-free DV codec which aims to mimic DV.

      My capture drives are all external FireWire drives, and mounted in a rack. So cooling is not a big issue, although they do heat the area around them nicely. :)

      And yeah, defragging is essential. But that's better at 7200RPM than 5400 too. (Naturally.) And yeah, dedicated partitions are also essential.

      But I wish I had enough drive space to have seperate capture/edit partitions. But even then... copying the 12GB or so for an hour-length capture across is going to be kinda painful at 5400RPM.

      But yeah, ultimately I think the only reasonable way to deal with large-scale capture needs is external drives mounted in racks, because of the heat issue. Unless you've got some kind of psycho water-cooling system set up, and even then... racks are a simpler technology, fewer things can go wrong :)

      --

      my old sig used to be funny, but then slashcode ate it and now it's not funny anymore

  35. Re:What's the maximum partition size in WinXP/Win2 by phoxix · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I think you were hit by a limitation of your BIOS, and not your OS. I'd be very surprised to learn that NTFS-5 was limited to 128 gig partitions. Sunny Dubey

  36. Re:What's the maximum partition size in WinXP/Win2 by dougnaka · · Score: 4, Informative
    "The maximum size of an NTFS partition is 16 EB"
    EB = Exabytes = BIGGG
    I believe the problem you ran into is only during installs, and is similar to WinNT4's 4GB max boot partition. You can simply put the drive in another Win2K box that's already installed, format the full 160GB and use it nuts. Just be aware of NTFS versions that differ in Win2K/WinXP... I think XP has a newer version, and 2k can't use it, but could be wrong..

    --
    My Linux Command of the Day site : LCOD
  37. Not possible with good file systems by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1, Informative

    That's the point of journaling, to ensure that the file system is never left in an inconsistent state, even in the event of a failure during write. You can loose data, of course, but that has always been true. Any data not comitted to disk will be lost, regardless of if it's in RAM or a disk buffer. However on a journaled file system (ext3, NTFS, etc) make it a near zero possibility that the file system be in an inconsistent state.

    1. Re:Not possible with good file systems by addaon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      But journaling filesystems work under the assumption that writes to the hardware become persistant in-order. Caches (can) violate this.

      --

      I've had this sig for three days.
    2. Re:Not possible with good file systems by Zapper · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, but, when the drive tells lies to the OS about the FS metadata having been written you are in a bad place come power failure; journalling or no.

      --
      So much to do, so little bandwidth.
      --
      Try Mozilla
    3. Re:Not possible with good file systems by ezzzD55J · · Score: 1

      That is only true if the disk doesn't re-order the i/o in a metadata-inconsistent way, which isn't certain on IDE drives.

    4. Re:Not possible with good file systems by fzammett · · Score: 1

      I'm not so sure about this... I agree with what your saying from a theoretical standpoint, but doesn't it ignore the fact that what's happening in the disk subsystem is to a large extent independant of what happens within the OS?

      I mean, if the OS dispatches out to the hard drive to store a file, presumably it also must store some journaling information at the same time with a journaled file system... Now if the hard drive goes and keeps both pieces of information in it's own internal cache, as far as the OS knows that info was stored. But if power goes out before it's physically committed to the platters, then that data is lost anyway.

      Maybe it's the case that modern OSs with really robust file systems actually query the hard drive to report when the data has physically been writen? That at least means the OS wouldn't be "assuming" the data was written when it really wasn't, but then it's just a different point of failure: main memory vs. drive cache.

      However, maybe all of this is really moot... maybe the cache is only a read cache and writes are basically done real-time. In fact, without knowing for sure I would really believe this to be the case. Does anyone know for sure?

      --
      If a pion (n-) collides with a proton in the woods & noone is there to hear it, does lamdba decay into the source pa
    5. Re:Not possible with good file systems by m.dillon · · Score: 1
      Even data committed to disk can be lost, the reason being that most modern IDE drives these days do whole-track writes. SCSI drives are often billed as being more robust but low error rates and economic pressures no longer make that a slam dunk. So if you modify sector A and your hard drive crashes you can lose sector's B-Z even though you didn't actually write to them.

      To be really safe you need to journal to a totally different physical device then the one holding the filesystem, even possibly one on an entirely different machine or in an entirely different machine room or, if you are really paranoid, one that is located off-site.

      Another advantage of a full off-machine data+meta journal is that you can reconstruct a filesystem which has been corrupted due to OS or hardware glitches.

      -Matt

  38. Re:What's the maximum partition size in WinXP/Win2 by davegaramond · · Score: 1

    I have flashed my BIOS with the latest and the BIOS has shown the right size (160G).

    Besides, Microsoft is known to put artificial limitation, for example 32GB for FAT32.

  39. Re:What's the maximum partition size in WinXP/Win2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Win2K, by default, doesn't do 48-bit LBA, which is necessary for it to see anything past the 128GB boundary.

    It's fixable in Win2K SP3: http://www.48bitlba.com/win2k.htm

  40. Re:What's the maximum partition size in WinXP/Win2 by Tranzig · · Score: 5, Informative

    The default windows 2000 install does not support harddisk sizes over 128gb. SP3 enables the support for 48bit LBA, thus solving this problem.
    Here's the related MSKB article.

  41. Re:What's the maximum partition size in WinXP/Win2 by Malc · · Score: 1

    Win2K does not have a 128GB limit. We have a Win2K SP4 database server with a 887 GB partition. Perhaps it's Win2K Pro vs Win2K Server???

  42. Re:What's the maximum partition size in WinXP/Win2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've done video editing on a 480GB hardware raid partition under win2k, worked fine.

  43. Mmmm RAID 5 for video on demand... by doormat · · Score: 1

    I've been looking to RAID5 a bunch of HDs, and 400GB makes it worth it. I saw a good RAID 5 card with 6 SATA ports, so 5 x 400GB = 2 TB. Mmmm 2TB. Finally be able to rip all my DVDs.

    Yes, and Hitachi/IBM came out with that 400GB drive a while ago BUT I've yet to see it on sale anywhere.

    --
    The Doormat

    If you're not outraged, then you're not paying attention.
    1. Re:Mmmm RAID 5 for video on demand... by Malc · · Score: 1

      You're not going to get 2TB out of 5x400GB, or even 6x400GB with RAID-5. 6x400GB with RAID-5 = 1.6TB. I think.

    2. Re:Mmmm RAID 5 for video on demand... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you're buying 6 drives? Seeing as how RAID 5 is going to use end up using the equivalent of 1 drive, that is going to be one expensive array. You'd have to see the price point of these new drives, but if you're going for the huge array already, it may work out to be cheaper to have multiple sub-arrays of smaller drives. Or not. Damn RAID is so expensive...

    3. Re:Mmmm RAID 5 for video on demand... by ezzzD55J · · Score: 1
      I may be stating the obvious here, but with 5x400GB you'll lose at least one drive for parity if you want to do RAID5.

      On the one hand RAID5 isn't ideal because updating the parity is slow, on the other hand that many disks in one unredundant array is asking for trouble, and RAID1 (or 0+1 or 1+0) is a bit wasteful, so it's smart.

      Just thought I'd add that. :)

    4. Re:Mmmm RAID 5 for video on demand... by here4you · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Check out this article on the ultimate home server. A company called JMR has a RAID5 enclosure with 6 Fujitsu 2.5" hard drives. Is this the configuration you're talking about? Anyway, thought you may be interested.... Digital Connect Magazine June 7, 2004 http://www.digitalconnectmag.com/howto/showArticle .jhtml;jsessionid=GUXGEUC3GUAUOQSNDBNSKHY?articleI D=20301222 Serve Your Customers The Best Our four-star lab engineers cook up full-course server. Season to taste. By Frank J. Ohlhorst Integrators are quickly finding that tying together a home IP infrastructure is starting to resemble what they've been doing for years in the business world. After all, the whole concept is to enable various devices to communicate and seamlessly share data. That situation demands a client/server-style solution. Home integrators have become intimately familiar with the "client" portion of the equation through the installation of IP-based devices, ranging from media center PCs to photo printers to media broadcasting devices. But there are weaknesses with the client-only solution because of the difficulty in sharing, controlling and protecting content. The short answer is to set up a home server, a single system that consolidates, manages and shares all of the data. An integrator can attempt to do that with a peer-to-peer network but will soon discover its limitations, such as security, backup, reliability and compatibility issues. Before rolling out a typical server, integrators will have to understand the needs of the smart home. While a home server shares certain elements with a business server, the two are vastly different. The key comes in the form of reliability and simplicity, along with size, power usage and noise. The next element to tackle is the software. Integrators can address the software issue by simply defining what should be expected from the server. Ultimately, a home server should act as a central repository for a household's data, but that functionality creates several prerequisites. Outside of the reliability, security and management issues, the server may need to support additional applications, such as a Web server, scheduling and e-mail functions, remote access and backup. With that in mind, Digital Connect Lab engineers chose Microsoft Small Business Server 2003. Although the OS is geared toward business needs, integrators will find the feature set is a good match for the home server environment. In other words, the best practices offered by Small Business Server 2003 for a business make the product ideal for a home server. Choosing the hardware that makes up a reliable and attractive home server starts with a suitable case and power supply, since the server should be as at home in the stereo equipment cabinet as hidden away in a closet. Engineers chose Antec's Overture Quiet Media Case, an attractive black case with quiet fans, a slim form factor and plenty of expansion room. One of the key considerations in choosing that case was the availability of two exposed 5.25-inch drive bays, which allows for the installation of two externally accessible drives. The $129 Overture case also sports two externally accessible 3.5-inch drive bays. Other important elements include front-mounted USB, audio and FireWire ports, toolless speed screw assembly, three internal 3.5-inch drive bays and a 380-watt power supply. The next element is a motherboard/processor combo. With the unit functioning as a server, bleeding-edge performance is not a necessity. Integrators can lower costs with a combo that offers midrange performance. Engineers selected an Intel D865GLC motherboard, which supports either a Pentium 4 or Celeron processor. The $134.99 D865GLC offers integrated Intel Extreme Graphics 2 video, dual Serial ATA (SATA) controllers, 10/100/1000 Ethernet and USB 2.0, all in a micro ATX form factor. To lower costs, engineers chose a 2.8GHz Intel Celeron with an MSRP of $135. For memory, engineers selected two Kingston KVR400X64C3A 512-Mbyte PC3200 memory modules ($1

    5. Re:Mmmm RAID 5 for video on demand... by afidel · · Score: 2, Informative

      6x400GiB in RAID5 would in fact be 2TiB. The general formula is (capacity) * (number of drives -1). For enterprise use this isn't necessarily true as you generally use larger numbers of spindles and leave one or more drives per set as hot spares.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    6. Re:Mmmm RAID 5 for video on demand... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's number of drives * 2/3, not number of drives -1

    7. Re:Mmmm RAID 5 for video on demand... by Malc · · Score: 1

      Where did you get 400GiB from? Hard drive manufactures normally use powers of 10, not 2, so I would expect 400GB, which is about 372GiB.

      In my experience of RAID-5, one third of the total capacity is lost to parity.

    8. Re:Mmmm RAID 5 for video on demand... by AKnightCowboy · · Score: 1
      In my experience of RAID-5, one third of the total capacity is lost to parity.

      Let me guess, you've never used more than 3 drives in a RAID-5 configuration? Believe me, RAID-5 is n-1. If you've got 8 drives in the array then you'll get total space of 7. If you've got 500 drives in the array you'll have the space of 499 of them put together.

    9. Re:Mmmm RAID 5 for video on demand... by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 1
      Yes, but only if you use 3 drives. Parity is stored on the last drive. 4 drives you would lose 1/4 of the space to parity. 10 drives you would "lose" 1/10 of the space to parity.

      And yes, I do this for a living.

      --
      "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
      --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
    10. Re:Mmmm RAID 5 for video on demand... by afidel · · Score: 1

      Array Capacity: (Size of Smallest Drive) * (Number of Drives - 1). linky

      and

      Capacity N-1 Where N is the number of disks, the capacity is N minus 1.
      linky.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    11. Re:Mmmm RAID 5 for video on demand... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but only if you use 3 drives. Parity is stored on the last drive.

      Only raid 3 (which is pretty rare) uses a dedicated parity drive. Raid 5 distributes the parity information over all the disks.

      And yes, I do this for a living.

      I guess you learned something new then :)

    12. Re:Mmmm RAID 5 for video on demand... by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 1
      >Yes, but only if you use 3 drives. Parity is
      >stored on the last drive.
      Only raid 3 (which is pretty rare) uses a dedicated parity drive. Raid 5 distributes the parity information over all the disks.
      > And yes, I do this for a living.
      I guess you learned something new then :)

      Learn something new everyday.

      Grandparent was still wrong about the amount of space eaten by parity.

      --
      "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
      --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
    13. Re:Mmmm RAID 5 for video on demand... by Ratcrow · · Score: 3, Informative
      So, if one of those 400GB drives goes down, and you throw in another (or have a hot spare), how long will it take to rebuild the array so that it is once again redundant?

      It could take weeks.

      Meanwhile, if another drive fails before the new one is built, then everything is lost.

  44. This just out... by nmb3000 · · Score: 5, Funny
    AP Story:

    In response to a recent article on Slashdot, both the RIAA and the MPAA have announced a partnership with Seagate, Inc.

    The details of this new partnership are sketchy, but it seems that it will entail the automated delivery of detailed information on everyone that purchases the new Seagate 400GB SATA hard drive. This comes from the assumption that the only reason anyone would really need that amound of drivespace is to store their growing collection of music and movies. Understandably, downloaders and rippers are tired or poor quality movies and audio, and as such this new drive will allow them to contain all their new high-bitrate media in one central location.

    In a related story, the RIAA has officially sued Seagate because this new hard drive gives people the capability to store pirated music on their computers. Said an RIAA spokesman, "We feel this is a gross violation of artist's rights, and that it's our responsibility to protect them."

    --
    "What do you despise? By this are you truly known." --Princess Irulan, Manual of Muad'Dib
    /)
  45. Re:What's the maximum partition size in WinXP/Win2 by BagOBones · · Score: 2, Informative

    The limit should be 2TB 2TB

    --
    EA David Gardner -"... but the consumers have proven that actually what they want is fun."
  46. Re:Sad news ... Stephen King dead at 59 by mtrisk · · Score: 1

    Yeah, kind of weird, he makes a good post earlier and then this stuff comes out? Maybe he got high on something. Too much HDD space can do that to ya.

    --

    Without a proper flamewar, Anonymous was undecided on what shell to run.
  47. Re:What's the maximum partition size in WinXP/Win2 by ThomaMelas · · Score: 2, Informative

    Link Has the info on how to get past that.

  48. does it matter..? by deadmongrel · · Score: 1

    just because you have warranty doesn't mean that your data is safe. Sure you would have replacement in your warrenty period but data lost is lost forever unless you backup ;)

    1. Re:does it matter..? by Martin+Blank · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is why RAID-1 is so nice. I went from "OHMYGODILOSTADRIVEMYDATAISGONE!!!" to "Oh, a drive failed. How annoying." Cross-ship from the manufacturer (Maxtor in my case), and in two days, I'm back up and running.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    2. Re:does it matter..? by AKnightCowboy · · Score: 1
      just because you have warranty doesn't mean that your data is safe. Sure you would have replacement in your warrenty period but data lost is lost forever unless you backup ;)

      I don't care about the data, I care about dropping $400+ on a hard drive that dies after a year. Screw this building huge unreliable drives. Give me back the days when they built drives that lasted 10 years. I STILL have a 256MB drive going strong in my firewall running continuously for 10 years. You really reach a certain point where you have enough space already. I've got 1.6 terabytes worth of various drives around and I've got to worry about juggling the data around so it's redundant in case I lose one of these highly unreliable drives. It becomes a pain in the ass.

  49. Come on! by yttrium · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Can't we just say 0.4 TB? It's only a matter of time...

    1. Re:Come on! by Shadwell · · Score: 1

      No, not yet.

      When non-technical customers buy computer components they look at numbers without knowing what they really mean. The may not know the difference between gigabytes and terrabytes, but they do know that 400 > 0.4.

  50. MODS THIS IS STOLEN FORM ABOVE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    STUPID TROLL

    1. Re:MODS THIS IS STOLEN FORM ABOVE by thebatlab · · Score: 1

      Does it feel good to tattle? Run home to mommy now and she'll pat you on the head and give you milk and cookies for being such a good boy.

    2. Re:MODS THIS IS STOLEN FORM ABOVE by Omega1045 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      YES, ANONYMOUS COWARD. I know. I am surprised you didn't get the lameness filter for CAPS. Dork.

      --

      Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein

    3. Re:MODS THIS IS STOLEN FORM ABOVE by Omega1045 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Nice. I was actually typing in a response and went and did something else, came back and submitted. By then I was late. Se la vi.

      I think the "Coward" part of "Anonymous Coward" best describes this person.

      --

      Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein

    4. Re:MODS THIS IS STOLEN FORM ABOVE by Omega1045 · · Score: 1

      Looks like I lost some karma

      --

      Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein

    5. Re:MODS THIS IS STOLEN FORM ABOVE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe he is "special" and that is why he is exempt from the lameness filter...

  51. What happened to native FireWire drives? by GPS+Pilot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This thing has a native Serial ATA interface... will we ever see a drive with a native FireWire interface?

    --
    That that is is that that that that is not is not.
    1. Re:What happened to native FireWire drives? by Erwos · · Score: 2, Informative

      What's the point? If the translator is good enough, you'd never notice a difference anyways. That's pretty much true of PCI-E and SATA, too.

      -Erwos

      --
      Plausible conjecture should not be misrepresented as proof positive.
    2. Re:What happened to native FireWire drives? by radoni · · Score: 0, Redundant

      not withstanding the point that ALL firewire drives are really ATA/IDE drives using adapters.

      zealot.

      if you've ever taken apart a drive using the 133794 interface you'd know that.

      --
      SIGERR: laziness exceeds quota
    3. Re:What happened to native FireWire drives? by GPS+Pilot · · Score: 1

      What's the point? If the translator is good enough, you'd never notice a difference anyways.

      The point is, you could eliminate the cost, weight, and power requirements of the unnecessary translator, if you had a native FireWire drive.

      --
      That that is is that that that that is not is not.
  52. Re:What's the maximum partition size in WinXP/Win2 by dameron · · Score: 3, Informative
    I think XP has a newer version, and 2k can't use it, but could be wrong..


    You are correct, and if you put an NT disk in an XP machine (say to do data recovery) the XP machine will -automatically and without asking- convert your NT disk to it's version of NTFS, rendering it unbootable.

    -dameron

  53. in other news by geekoid · · Score: 4, Funny

    Seagate has redefined a 'Byte' to be 4 bits.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    1. Re:in other news by radoni · · Score: 1

      that'd be technically valid.

      byte means different things depending on what system you're working with. the notion that a nibble is two bits, word two nibbles, byte two words... mostly intel x86 convention.

      i have seen assembler code that assumes a byte to be four bits.

      --
      SIGERR: laziness exceeds quota
    2. Re:in other news by glwtta · · Score: 1

      Strictly speaking they wouldn't have to redefine it - a byte can be whatever the manufacturer of a system defines it to be. It's just that 8 has (thankfully) become pretty much a universal standard.

      --
      sic transit gloria mundi
  54. Personally, I don't bother with more than 80GB by bonch · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I simply do not trust any hard drive larger than that. Had too many instances where they fucking died on me. I'm happy with an 80GB and a 20GB master/slave combo.

    My 420MB hard drive from my 1994 AST Advantage computer still works perfectly.

    1. Re:Personally, I don't bother with more than 80GB by Nogami_Saeko · · Score: 1

      That's why with really large drives, it makes sense to make RAID arrays that have striping/mirroring capabilities. So long as two drives don't at once (fairly unlikely), you won't have to worry about singing the blues.

      N.

      --
      "Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence." - Charles de Gaulle
  55. Re:What's the maximum partition size in WinXP/Win2 by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I got hit by this recently. Windows 2000 was limited to support for 128GB partition sizes until SP3. Once you have SP3, it takes a registry change to enable "Big LBA" (48-bit).

    Here's the relevant document.

    This isn't an issue with XP, from my experience. I jacked in a 250GB drive in a USB chassis to my laptop and it worked fine right off the bat.

    --
    You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
  56. On the plus side... by Tim+Macinta · · Score: 1
    But the only thing short of a really long tape that you can backup these things to in one media is another 400GB hdd. (it would still be 86 4.7GB DVDs)
    The nice thing about that is that it makes for a great excuse to have a second machine (yeah you're backing up to another 400GB hdd, it just happens to be in another machine). It's a symbiotic relationship - each machine backs up to another. I don't for the life of me see why any small business with more than 1 PC would not do this. This is really very easy to set up in Linux with 'rsync' and 'cron', and in Windows... well, I'm working on it. The program I'm working on won't exactly handle 400GB very well because it makes a full backup every time, but I do plan to address this by adding incremental support if there is enough interest in it. Also, it's free as in beer (and some of the libraries it uses are LGPL).
    1. Re:On the plus side... by Donny+Smith · · Score: 1

      Admittedly it'd be hard to deal with live data (databases, open files, etc.) using your system, but it's a good idea. I like the fact that you provide both Windows and Linux versions. I might give it a try! Thanks.

    2. Re:On the plus side... by Tim+Macinta · · Score: 1
      Admittedly it'd be hard to deal with live data (databases, open files, etc.) using your system, but it's a good idea.
      I think that's generally true of any backup system. MMB will, however, alert you when it wasn't able to back up a file because it was open, so at least you'll know. I would like to add "plugin" support at some point so that you can tell it to run "pg_dump", "mysqldump", or any other program beforehand to take a consistent snapshot of database data, etc. If and when I add that is going to depend mostly upon user demand.
      I like the fact that you provide both Windows and Linux versions. I might give it a try! Thanks.
      I'd like to do an OSX version too. It actually already works fine in OSX, although I would need to polish up the look and feel before releasing it. Anyway, that too will happen if and when there is demand for it.
  57. ATA Raid cases? by ksheff · · Score: 1

    So what are you guys using for cases for these systems? Any ol' full ATX tower with a bunch of drive bays? I know for SCSI systems, one could buy an external enclosure, put 4+ drives in it, plug it into the external SCSI port, and go. Is there anything similar for ATA/SATA?

    --
    the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
    1. Re:ATA Raid cases? by patchmaster · · Score: 1

      Promise (and I'm sure others as well) makes a couple enclosures that take ATA/SATA drives. One of them will hold up to 15 drives and connects to the computer via two SCSI interfaces. Interesting to see a true SCSI interface to ATA devices.

    2. Re:ATA Raid cases? by clarkc3 · · Score: 1

      jetstor has offered those for a long time, first using ide, now using sata. you can see them for sale under products on raid.com

  58. Why not 2.5" internal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why are the 2.5-inch drives being touted as external USB/Firewire drives? Me, I'd be happier with an *internal* 2.5-inch 100GB drive than a 3.5-inch 400GB one. The 2.5-inch will be quieter, will generate less heat, will consume less power, and is almost certainly more reliable.

    1. Re:Why not 2.5" internal? by dasmegabyte · · Score: 2, Informative

      Some cases will use these drives as internals...but they're a bit thicker than will fit in a standard 2.5" drive bay, so they have to put them into an external enclosure. Some older systems will fit bigger hard drives; in fact, I used to have a Pismo powerbook that I swear could fit TWO laptop drives in it. It was also twice as heavy as my TiBook.

      Don't worry....regular 100 gig 2.5" drives are coming soon!

      --
      Hey freaks: now you're ju
  59. you can turn the write-behinds off by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In fact, many drives default to having them off.

    I think you are narrowing in too far in this case. The amount of time the data sits in the cache unflushed is the rotational latency of the drive, plus the time taken to write it, which is size/transfer rate.

    Well, the rotational latency of drives has dropped as the rotational rates went up from 3600 to 7200rpm. also, the transfer rates have risen at roughly the same rate as the size of the caches. In fact, the cache is probably sized to hold a certain amount of data measured in time, not bytes.

    So it is likely that data sits on in the write-behind cache less time than it used to, not more. Thus you are less likely to have corruption.

    To be honest though, it is the job of the filesystem to overcome issues of drive corruption, you cannot ever remove the possibility. And I think today's file systems are up to the job.

  60. except for the price..... by zogger · · Score: 1

    ....of replacing them. It can be a significant figure in price to many people. Not all, to some people a new hardrive is a pittance, or it's on the companys tab or it's deductable on taxes or whatnot, but to others it might be equivalent-say-to the monthly power bill or the weekly grocery money, etc.

    I'd rather have a smaller drive that I was more confident wouldn't fail for a decade, if the price was the same. Say a 20 gigger with a decade warranty(deserved, and if it existed obviously) as opposed to a 200 gigger with a one year warranty.

  61. Similar news from Fujitsu by here4you · · Score: 1

    Here is a story about a similar announcement from Fujitsu - with regard to the 100GB mobile drive. From what I can tell, Fujitsu is saying that it's already shipping a 100GB mobile drive and Seagate will ship its 100GB mobile drive in the third quarter. Does anyone else have a clear view on this? http://www.computerworld.com/mobiletopics/mobile/s tory/0,10801,93820,00.html?from=homeheads

  62. Overkill by RucasRiot · · Score: 0

    As if nerds who read /. don't have enough porn already...

    --
    Props to GNAA!
  63. Re:What's the maximum partition size in WinXP/Win2 by bhtooefr · · Score: 1

    No, it's SP3 vs. SP3=.

  64. that limitation is only on formatting... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If Windows encounters a FAT32 partition >32GB, it still works with it. It doesn't corrupt it.

    Microsoft would be stupid to artifically corrupt file systems over a certain size.

    I'm sure this was an LBA28 (referred to as the 137GB limit) issue.

  65. 20 GB by Fuzzums · · Score: 1

    I've had that same problem with my win98 box when I put in the 20GB drive...

    Now it's my 486 server. runs like a baby in a ferrari

    --
    Privacy is terrorism.
    1. Re:20 GB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      runs like a baby in a ferrari

      I don't get it? Does that mean it's kind of poopy smelling unless you open the Windows or what?

  66. Re:What's the maximum partition size in WinXP/Win2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Real Maxinum Partition size of an W2K/XP Partition is 2TB (using 512 byte blocks). However you can increase the partition size by using larger block (ie 4 TB using 1K blocks or 8TB using 2K Blocks). I have a W2K box configured with about 17TB using IDE2SCSI and FiberChannel Disk arrays, and have partitions of 2TB, 4TB and 8TB

  67. multiple heads by morcheeba · · Score: 1

    An alternative is to do what Conner did a while back... use double the number of heads. Basically the head and actuater was duplicated, one set on the left, and one set 180 degrees away on the right. This cut the speed-induced-latency by half and doubled the thoroughput, all without going to a denser substrate or doubling the drive speed. But, the linked article gives a good reason noone has tried this since... it was costly (the doubled parts weren't cheap) and competed too closely with RAIDs.

    1. Re:multiple heads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      An alternative is to do what Conner did a while back...


      I guess this is why Conner are still in business LOL
    2. Re:multiple heads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess this is why Conner are still in business

      Well, since slashdot are still in business, I can post this and say:
      The two headed drives are not nec. why Conner went out of business, you think dirty, underhanded, possibly illegal business practices are limited to MS, Financial Sector firms and Defense contracting companies?

      PS Are you really not from the US, or is this corporate plural thing like when all those in the US that wanted to be cool in the punk scene had to talk with a bad English accent?

  68. AARGG!! by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Just bought a datacenter full of G5 rackmounts with 250GB SATA drives. Feels like the time I had to order a 66 Mhz PowerMac for school in June, and the 80Mhz machines were out in October.

    --
    "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
    --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
    1. Re:AARGG!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget to update your resume with the PPCs is it Linux or OS X they'll be running?

      Also, Feng Shui-wise/dwelling energy-wise it is not good to put a crib (or bed) under a sloping roof line like that - it is "limiting" or closing in on their upward energy...

      Check out some of the books by the lady who wrote "Clearing your Clutter with Feng-Shui" - soft rounded corners, non-busy organic patterns, no metal, no electronics are some of her points for bedrooms.

    2. Re:AARGG!! by Detritus · · Score: 1

      Announced does not mean available.

      --
      Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
    3. Re:AARGG!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, since your hardware has apparently become obsolete overnight, I'll gladly take it off your hands.

  69. Backing up big drives by jmorris42 · · Score: 1

    Buy more hard drives and stick them in FireWire or USB2 enclosures and use em like tapes. Sure the 'tapes' cost more but since the 'drive' is usually included on a modern motherboard you win unless you need a LOT of tapes. They can also double as hard drives! And it is SO much easier to recover a single file from a backup when your backup program is rsync or "cp -a".

    --
    Democrat delenda est
  70. Re:What's the maximum partition size in WinXP/Win2 by Pheonix5000 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Actually 2^64 byes (1024 TB) equals a Petabyte NOT an Exabyte

  71. RAM drives by Charcharodon · · Score: 2, Interesting
    My question is when are they going to quit fooling around with these small cache sizes and start putting in 256mb-1gb+ of memory in there to be used as a RAM drive that is fed by it's HD component.

    It would be nice to see HD's average transfer rate stay closer to it's peak rating for comonly used files.

  72. Think again by Cyno01 · · Score: 1

    Ok, so what, a RAID 0 array of 80GB disks... Thats 5 drives, each using about 50W of power. Your average dell or sony ships with maybe a 300w PSU. Not that i trust a hard drive as large as 400GB entirly, but fewer points of failure than a RAID 0 array. I'd say if you factor in enough drives to match capacity, another drive or two for mirroring within the array, a RAID controller and a new PSU to run 6 hard drives or so, you probably break even on a $/GB basis. With that said, my next computer will have a 550W PSU, 2 74GB Raptors in RAID 1 and 2 250GB SATA drives in RAID 0 for storage. :p

    --
    "Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
    1. Re:Think again by Kris_J · · Score: 1

      While it's already been pointed out that your power consumption numbers are way off, you're headed in the right direction if you think of the number of available drive bays in a PC. Now, much as I'd like to build a terrabyte firewire enclosure, when it comes to cost effectiveness, I'm going to want to fill the inside of my PC with drives first, before I go to the expense of external boxes and the inconvenience of the extra power points they need. I have two HDDs in my main PC, a 40 Gig and an 80Gig. They're a waste of space. I've got physical room for two more drives, but probably only the heat dissipation capacity for one more. Buggered if that's going to be some pissy little sub-100Gig drive. My spare PC is even less impressive when you look at it's existing drives, but at least it has room for three or four more. If I can get hold of a nice firewire-2-IDE adapter I should be able to get a terrabyte of storage on my home network by the end of the year, but not if I do it with tiny little drives, no matter how cheap per GB they are.

  73. Archival by totoanihilation · · Score: 1

    Slightly OT, but I've come to a realization recently.
    I just bought a spindle of 50 DVD-Rs for about 60 bucks CAD (about 40 USD). That is when I noticed I really don't need more than my 120GB drive. 220GB worth of DVD-Rs cost 40USD, whereas the same capacity in hard disks will cost several times that.
    I understand that some people might need this (intensive video editing, high-capacity serving, etc...) but the average Joe home-user has no use for it. And yet the people at Future Shop will shove a huge capacity HD down the throat of an unsuspecting buyer when that same buyer could save a few hundred bucks by simply getting some media.
    It's great to see advances in technology like this, but doesn't this eventually lead to bloated software? How many gigs will Office Longhorn take?

    I'd rather have better reliability, better seek times, and faster transfer rates. When will drives include more than one set or R/W heads around the platter to accelerate the seek of multiple files? At least then, newer hard drives would give some tangible benefits. They would make your overall computer faster.

    Welp, that was my 0.02$...

  74. WTF OMG LOL (rolloffle) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You got trolled! How does it feel to be totally fucking owned by that guy? Now, please go fuck off and die. KTHXBYE

    Seriously, though. I'm not sure why Stephen King is the target of this particular troll. I know he is a popular horror writer (I've read almost all of his books, The Stand being the best), but I'm not convinced that there is a large nerd connection to him. Unless that is the point, so that nerds don't follow news about him and they might be convinced that he really died. But whatever; it's still a classic troll. I remember the first time I saw it. I was totally owned and was searching google and all the news sites for any more information for about 10 minutes. Hahaha.

  75. How'd Seagate's 500GB drive get ignored? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    500GBs of Enterprise Level Storage
    is probably how lacie can manage 1 TB.

    500 GB... hello editors?

  76. Quit makeing up stuff. by DAldredge · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Specs from a WDC 80GB 7200 RPM IDE drive.

    Current Requirements and Power Dissipation
    Operating Mode RMS Current Power, Typical 1
    12 VDC 5 VDC
    Spinup 2.2 A 525 mA 17.0 W
    Read/Write/Idle 350 mA 800 mA 8.0 W
    Seek 900 mA 675 mA 14.0 W
    Power Management Commands
    Operating Mode RMS Current 1 Power, Typical 1
    12 VDC 5 VDC
    Idle (E1H) 330 mA 675 mA 7.25 W
    Standby (E0H) 20 mA 200 mA 1.25 W
    Sleep (E6H) 20 mA 50 mA

    0.5 W

    1. Re:Quit makeing up stuff. by Cyno01 · · Score: 1

      I got served. I pulled that number out of my ass after i read somewhere today that Raptors pull about 65W...

      --
      "Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
    2. Re:Quit makeing up stuff. by pod · · Score: 2, Informative

      No drive does 50W. The 74GB 10k Raptor uses less that 10W. The Maxtor 15k Atlas SCSI (150GB) comes in under 15W. Takes less that 5 minutes to look up, no need to pull out wild numbers out of your ass.

      --
      "Hot lesbian witches! It's fucking genius!"
  77. Re:What's the maximum partition size in WinXP/Win2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    NT4sp4 I believe should be able to boot NTFS5 disks.

  78. Anybody else read this... by kko · · Score: 1

    as Seagate rolls out 400 gangsta drives?

    I wonder where that came from...

    --
    No, seriously, I just come here for the articles.
  79. SATA hotswap bays by josh42 · · Score: 1
    As another poster mentioned, you could use an external Firewire/USB enclosure. But if you just can't get over that "pop in a tape" feel, buy an SATA hotswap bay ($70) and a few, say, 120GB drives ($100 each).

    Cost per GB: $1.20 (hd) vs. $.25 (tapes) but the initial investment is $70 vs. $6e+3 (tape drive figure is an educated guess). So unless you're going to be backing up more than, oh, six terabytes (really 5930 GB) concurrently, the hotswap bay is a better investment :-)

  80. Multiple Heads by Detritus · · Score: 1
    Depends. More platters means the disk can dispatch more reads and write in parallel. (Each platter has it's own head.)

    Only one head is active at a time, and they are all attached to a single positioning mechanism. That eliminates any parallelism. It also takes a measurable amount of time to switch heads. Every time the drive switches heads, it must tweak the head positioner to move the head over the currently selected cylinder. Track densities are so high that each surface must have embedded servo data for head positioning. You can't assume that all heads are simultaneously positioned on the same cylinder.

    --
    Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
  81. If it gets into an iPod, I'll be happy by agraupe · · Score: 1

    Finally no more wimpy 40GB iPod... I would honestly like to see a non-server with 400GB of anything to fill up. Unless you demand loseless audio quality, and rip your entire DVD collection to disk, it would be quite a challenge. I got a 160GB disk, and it's only 10% full. And it has all my music, some assorted iso's, lots of software, etc... Why not use several smaller SCSI drives? I wouldn't like the idea of my 400GB of anything being corrupted for whatever reason all at once. The only big single drive I would buy would be a 1TB drive, just so I can say I have one.

    1. Re:If it gets into an iPod, I'll be happy by Nukenbar2 · · Score: 0

      I guess you have never seen suprnova.org...

  82. So tell me why SSDs 1/10th this big are SOO $$$? by gelfling · · Score: 1

    At what point are just going to light the torches, hoist the pitchforks and march up the SSD (Solid State Disk) manufacturers and demand they start to bring the price down on SSDs so that we can finally get meaningfully great performance out of all this money?

    I don't need the rought equivalent of the Library of Congress. What I need is FAST ACCESS to a much smaller subset of that.

  83. Re:*BSD is dying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's a "responding to trolls with a pseudo-naive response" troll, I think this is new...

  84. Re:So tell me why SSDs 1/10th this big are SOO $$$ by glwtta · · Score: 2, Insightful
    so that we can finally get meaningfully great performance out of all this money?

    I don't think I understand your question - you think that flash manufacturers are intentionally keeping the performance of their technology down? Or that RAM-based SSD manifacturers are charging too much? Neither really has anything whatsoever to do with the HDDs mentioned in the article.

    Can't quite see the source of your exasperation.

    --
    sic transit gloria mundi
  85. Re:What's the maximum partition size in WinXP/Win2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's a hardware/BIOS limit of some sort.

    I just went through this when I tried to attach a 160 Gig drive to a machine running Windows 2003 via a USB external drive. The machine simply would not recognize it as anything greater than 128 Gigs.

    I replaced the motherboard with a newer one, which I'd been planning to do anyway. Now running the same OS, I see the whole 160 gigs.

    Were you able to partition and format the drive entirely under Linux? I guess I would be somewhat surprised if you could.

  86. Re:What's the maximum partition size in WinXP/Win2 by stryyker · · Score: 0

    You could maybe try XP ntldr etc. then. I have been using 2K and XP copying stuff between them fine and both boot properly, although via XP bootloader (installed in a FAT partition).

  87. Large arrays of SATA drives by yppiz · · Score: 2, Informative
    I recently built a PC with several TB of hot-swap SATA RAIDed storage for around $1/G. I used two 3Ware Escalade 8508-8 cards and 10 250GB SATA drives. I'm running FreeBSD AMD64 5.2.1-rel with only minor problems (sysinstall/fdisk doesn't like creating > 1TB arrays).

    One important detail when constructing a multi-TB PC is that the 3Ware 8506 series cards can address at most 2TB per card. This is no problem with 250GB drives, but with 400GB drives, it becomes an issue (8 x 400GB = 3.2TB).

    The recently announced 3Ware 9506 series can address more storage (4TB per card, I think) but when I looked two months ago, no vendors had it yet.

    --Pat / zippy@cs.brandeis.edu

    1. Re:Large arrays of SATA drives by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but can you fry eggs on that box?

    2. Re:Large arrays of SATA drives by yppiz · · Score: 1
      No. It runs amazingly cool. Most of the case fans are disconnected. I've got one of the Zalman flower-petal heat sinks (CNPS7000A-ALCU pic) and its fan rarely spins up. I used an Antec power supply that is rather quiet, partly because it is more efficient than standard PSs, so it dissapates less heat.

      The drives are fairly low-speed, either 5400RPM or maybe 7200RPM, so they don't generate much noise or heat either.

      --Pat / zippy@cs.brandeis.edu

  88. I think you mean pornucopia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    because utopia is about perfection, or at least ignoring the imperfections. A pornucopia is about more porn than you can ... do what you do with porn ... with. errr...

    Now I can finally back up the internet.

    -theed

  89. How nice by PingPongBoy · · Score: 1

    it is to make backups of the ghost image to 3.5" floppies. I might consider using CD-Rs but according to the theory of big O notation it doesn't really make any difference ;)

    --
    Know your pads. One time pad: good for cryptography. Two timing pad: where to take your mistress.
  90. Say what? by ottffssent · · Score: 1

    "Seagate will also offer the new 400GB capacity in its award-winning desktop Seagate External Hard Drive, which is perfect for using less desktop space and travels well with notebook PCs while still offering a 100GB capacity."

    Seagate makes great stuff. It's too bad their marketing department is so clueless. Getting two products confused isn't a great way to convey professionalism, but these things happen. On the other hand, you don't need to know anything about either product to know that a sentence claiming something offers both 100GB and 400GB capacity just isn't right.

    NCQ will be nice. In other products, it's provided a serious boost to performance in multiuser configurations, and remains one of the reasons why SCSI drives always beat IDE drives in server performance, even when the IDE drives are mechanically superior. This new generation of SATA drives, coupled with maturing SATA RAID cards and enclosures, will put huge pressure on SCSI for use in large disk arrays.

  91. whoa! by SKPhoton · · Score: 1

    whoa! it's the 7200.8! that's .8 more model numbers than the now inferior 7200! who wouldn't want one now?

  92. Would they please make an integrated RAID by phr1 · · Score: 1
    Not one that needs special motherboard support, but one that physically and logically looks exactly like a normal 3.5" drive. Inside it would have two 2.5" laptop drives but you wouldn't even have to know that. You'd just plug it in and use it like a 3.5" drive and all data would automatically be replicated across both internal drives. If one of the drives crashed, the RAID (in some mode) would simply shut itself down (if it kept going like nothing had happened, you might never notice til the other drive crashed). You could then investigate what happened and change a jumper to put the RAID back in service on just one drive, until you had a chance to replace the failed internal drive.

    I'm not sure if the form factors allow for it, but it would be even better if you could do this for laptop drives, since most laptops have space for just one drive. You'd put two 1.8" iPod-type drives (available up to 40 GB) into a single 2.5" drive slot. I guess you could certainly fit 1.3" microdrives, but those are way expensive and max out at 4 GB each.

    1. Re:Would they please make an integrated RAID by bbdd · · Score: 1

      something kind of like this

      no software drivers needed either.

      i have not tried the microraid model, but we use a raidcase model for a voicemail system.

  93. Re:What's the maximum partition size in WinXP/Win2 by jalsk · · Score: 1

    I hate how windows limits Fat32 partitions to 2gb.... you can format it in dos pretty much as large as you want, but windows forces you to use ntfs if your drive is larger than 2 gb.

    -Jalsk

  94. Not the first... by xaivior · · Score: 2, Informative

    Hitachi and Maxtor already had 400 gig drives out a while before this article was published. Though the maxtor doesnt have comparable specs. the hitachi does.

    --
    "Algebraic expressions are what we sue when we have no clue what were talkign about"
  95. Rules of numbers.... by Kjella · · Score: 1

    Along the lines of "Not 1000, but 999,50" there's also a rule that says that "0.x something" sounds small. That's why around here they love to use fuel measurements like "0.53l / (10 km)" (in Norwegian: liter/mil).

    They'll start using TB when they hit 1TB. Then they can go [Doctor Evil] One TRILLION bytes *raise pinky, cue cheesy manical laughter* [/Doctor Evil]. Least in the US, here it's just a billion. Don't ask me why, it makes less sense than the imperial/metric unit thing.

    Kjella

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    1. Re:Rules of numbers.... by LordKronos · · Score: 1

      They'll start using TB when they hit 1TB

      And I'm not looking forward to that day. The difference between the base2 TB that we typically use and the base10 TB that hard drive manufacturers use is 92 GB. That "missing" capacity is greater than the actual capacity I have in my brand new computer.

  96. Let's see now... by Kjella · · Score: 1
    210mb drive? Failed.
    400mb drive? Failed (I think, don't remember)
    1,6gb drive? Massive bad sectors
    3,8gb drive? Failed (Quantum Fireball)
    9gb drive? Failed (WD)
    _15gb drive? Operational (IBM)
    _27gb drive? Operational (WD)
    _45gb drive? Failed (IBM Deathstar)
    100gb drive?`Operational (WD)
    120gb drive? Operational (WD)
    160gb drive? Operational (Seagate)
    160gb drive? Operational (Seagate)
    Based on my experience, I certainly don't see much reason to believe 80gb drives fail any less. Though I am seeing a clear reason to believe that disks DO fail. RAID them up (admittingly, I'm not following my own advice) and just expect there to be losses. Back-up is nice too, if you can find the time...

    Kjella
    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  97. Ok ok ok... by Cyno01 · · Score: 1

    Not entirly out of my ass, i was checking prices earlier today, read the second review. So maybe all my power arguments were unfounded, but i think my reasoning for price was sound.

    --
    "Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
    1. Re:Ok ok ok... by pod · · Score: 1

      Hehe, that's what you get for 'mis'quoting anonymous sources ;) 65W, wow, wonder how the guy arrived at that measurement. But think about it though, 65W, yes, drives are a honkin huge chunk of steel, but they still have to dissipate it, and they don't get nearly the thermal treatment that CPUs or GPUs get by default. So an uncooled 65W drive probably wouldn't last very long.

      --
      "Hot lesbian witches! It's fucking genius!"
  98. Re:TACO'S ASS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think the grandparent misunderstood something. I read on ZDNet that it's Timothy's penis that rolls out into Taco's ass.

  99. newer Muvo Nomad 4GB drives no longer usable asCF by mkstowegnv · · Score: 1

    Off topic but related and affects many people who are still buying the Nomads thinking they are getting a 4GB microdrive usable in their digital cameras etc. (like me recently burned after buying directly from Creative). Hitachi has followed up on their threats (from http://www.steves-digicams.com/microdrive.html): "Other OEM drives with different part numbers are also not CF compliant and meet the requirements of that customer. All are subject to change without notice as well. So if you have an OEM drive that works now, one from that same mfg may not work later on...."
    This thread http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1 019&message=9153930 and others on digital camera forums confirm that the MD in newer Nomads do not work in CF devices (it even says so on the package in fine print) .

  100. Actually there is a Seagate connection by mkstowegnv · · Score: 1

    I was forgetting this is more on topic than it seems - Seagate has announced a 5GB CF microdrive supposedly available for under $150 in Q3 of this year (http://www.steves-digicams.com/microdrive.html). In other words if you can wait, don't buy expensive Hitachi CF drives (which they hope you will do now that the Muvo option is gone) - cheaper alternatives are on the way.

    This sig shameslessly plugs my work with tandem recumbent tricycles and the severely disabled

  101. SEAGATE HD sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seagate is probably the worst manufacturer of hd, i work with more than 100 computers and it fails a lot. Not reliable if you pretend to store any apreciated data.

  102. Re:So tell me why SSDs 1/10th this big are SOO $$$ by gelfling · · Score: 1

    Storage is a function, not a thing. The function is to hold and to access a given something. Manufacturers seem to have forgotten that critical fact. And while we appreciate being sold what amounts to essentially unlimited amounts of storage - the performance of that storage has been flat for years, in fact, in relation to its size and to the performance of other aspects of your computer it's actually gone backwards.

    So if not SSD then something else but in this day and age where desktop PCs have as much memory as 5 million dollar mainframes of 10 years ago its silly to pretend that there is NOTHING to be done with storage performance except by paying supercomputer prices for SSD.

  103. SATA, USB HD? WTF? by Pan+T.+Hose · · Score: 1

    SATA? USB? We are talking about HD here, mind you. So, USB? ATA? IDE? Seriously, what's wrong with SCSI?

    --
    Sincerely,
    Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
    "Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
  104. Re:What's the maximum partition size in WinXP/Win2 by TheSync · · Score: 1

    Hmmm...I have a 135GB partition under Win2K server of internal SCSI drives. I also have a 1.36 TB partition on Win2K server on an external fibre channel RAID array.

  105. Re:why not a desktop UPS by chrwei · · Score: 1

    You can get a 1000VA UPS for under $150 that's plenty big enough to run a 19" CRT, a rather power hungery PC (2+ HDD, 2+ optical, dual 2Ghz+ CPU, 460Watt PSU), a hub+router and a cable/dsl modem for at least 15 minutes. you're gonna spend a lot more than $150 on a 400GB drive, I'd bet $150 for a UPS isn't a big deal.

    --
    - Disclaimer: Information in this post deemed reliable but not guaranteed.
  106. Could M$ do anything right? by dougnaka · · Score: 1
    AHAHAHHA
    you are completely correct, 1024TB = 1PB and 1024 PB=1EB.. what a bunch of n00bs, they obviously didn't check this byte converter a tron

    lamers

    --
    My Linux Command of the Day site : LCOD
  107. Re:So tell me why SSDs 1/10th this big are SOO $$$ by glwtta · · Score: 1
    So if not SSD then something else but in this day and age where desktop PCs have as much memory as 5 million dollar mainframes of 10 years ago its silly to pretend that there is NOTHING to be done with storage performance except by paying supercomputer prices for SSD.

    You can pretty much rest assured that when someone comes up with better technology they will sell it to you - there is no corporate conspiracy going on to deprive you of faster disk access.

    --
    sic transit gloria mundi
  108. only 375Gb Formatted by fore1337 · · Score: 1

    I read in anandtech's forum that this drive is only 375Gb formatted to NTFS. therefore it would only be a .375Tb kinda gay sounding if you ask me.
    Just for the record, this drive has only 1 purpose, to be RAIDed out.