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Microsoft to Issue Out-of-Cycle Patch for IE

rsw writes "Microsoft will be breaking their normal patch cycle and issuing a patch for the Download.Ject attack (a.k.a. Scob). They claim that the forthcoming patch will be a "long-term solution to the core vulnerability" exploited by Scob." Note that this does not mean that they are replacing IE with FireFox.

391 comments

  1. The mounting pressure by Mz6 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Seems as though all of the exploits coming out against IE has finally got to them. I've counted about 5+ just from the Full Disclosure and BugTraq mailing lists in the past few weeks. All of them different in nature of thier attacks.

    --
    Hmmm.
    1. Re:The mounting pressure by EnnTeeDee · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Our [Microsoft IE] users should have confidence that as long as they're running the latest browser with all the latest security fixes, they will have the most powerful and secure browsing experience," Hachamovitch said.

      Umm, yeah, we should (in a perfect world) be able to have confidence that the biggest software company on the planet puts out the best product. But Microsoft is too big and juicy a target to inspire confidence.

      We also should be able to trust our elected leaders to be able to spend our tax funds wisely, but I'm not holding my breath on that either.

    2. Re:The mounting pressure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Our elected leaders aren't keeping 3/4 of their revenue for themselves.

    3. Re:The mounting pressure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Our elected leaders aren't keeping 3/4 of their revenue for themselves."

      That would be very hard for them considering we are going to be running a $420 billion deficit this year.

    4. Re:The mounting pressure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny
      As long as we're fixing up the original quote, let's try to preserve its true meaning:

      "Our users should have confidence that as long as they're running the latest browser with all the latest security fixes [Mozilla Firefox], they will have the most powerful and secure browsing experience,"

    5. Re:The mounting pressure by seafoodforklift · · Score: 1

      Elected?

    6. Re:The mounting pressure by SethJohnson · · Score: 0, Flamebait


      Indirectly. Halliburton, which was run by our Vice President until 2000, frequently receives no-bid contracts for millions of dollars, and then subcontracts the work for tens of thousands of dollars. And requently, there isn't any work being done under contracts, anyway.

      "We saw very little concern for cost considerations," David Walker, head of the General Accounting Office, the investigative arm of the Congress, told members of the Congress who attended a hearing at the Government Reform Committee in the House of Representatives. "There are serious problems, they still exist, and they are exacerbated in a wartime climate."
  2. Wow by Anonymous+Crowhead · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The released a patch when it's needed, not when it's scheduled. How novel.

    1. Re:Wow by chrisgeleven · · Score: 5, Informative

      Except this patch was needed a few weeks ago (and the exploit if I remember right has been known for months).

    2. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would not call the release of the patch at this time to be "when it's needed" since it was needed months ago.

    3. Re:Wow by imbaczek · · Score: 1

      I'd say it's neither.

    4. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      But didn't MS say it's the patches that cause the exploits?

      Plus the patch won't be ready till NEXT week.
      Normally MS doesn't PR their minor patchs. Maybe their Service Packs, but i don't really know.
      So, how much of this PR stunt has to do with what Home Land (in)Security had to say about IE?

    5. Re:Wow by EtherAlchemist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm only playing devil's advocate here, but it's possible (likely?) that Microsoft suffers from internal politics, like many other software companys, that actually work against the process.

      I work for a software company where fixes to bugs on live products are held up for weeks and months on end while managers seek the person to blame, assign blame, come up with a plan to make the fix, revise the plan to include 8 other random and unrelated things they want to fix, slap them into one rollout that will now require 6 developers on 3 teams and 4 QA guys who will follow the spec to the letter (even if it is mispelled) and file 200 new bugs. This cycle goes on for a month or so and by the time the fix is released, a dozen other problems have surfaced and been deemed not important enough to fix now. Afterall, we just had a hariy cycle trying to get the last fix out.

      Now, the way it should have gone: Identify the problem, design a fix, make the fix, test the fix, deploy the fix. Days, not weeks or months.

      --
      R(k)
    6. Re:Wow by LittleGuy · · Score: 2

      Normally MS doesn't PR their minor patchs. Maybe their Service Packs, but i don't really know. ...except it's been since February since their last IE Culmulative Patch....

      Way overdue, even for MS.

      --
      Mod Karma -1: I sed bad wurds. If I cep my mouf shut, I wud be at riyses.
    7. Re:Wow by yiantsbro · · Score: 1

      I hate to sound selfish here but I sure as hell hope whatever it your comapny is selling/licensing has no direct ties to my health or saftety. It would have been alright as long as I didn't know about it :)

    8. Re:Wow by Q2Serpent · · Score: 4, Funny

      who will follow the spec to the letter (even if it is mispelled)

      It happens to the best of us :)

    9. Re:Wow by HumorousFounder · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think something to remember here is that IE integrates into a lot of their products so I think a better way of describing the process would be Identify the problem, design a fix, make the fix, test the fix, fix the fix, test the fix, fix the fix, test the fix, deploy the fix, hope that they didn't rush the fix out too quickly and break other peoples software. Weeks not Days or Months (well mabye months on occasion)

  3. Firefox by FortKnox · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Note that this does not mean that they are replacing IE with FireFox.

    Good, cause firefox has render problems on slashdot all the time (where as IE doesn't). I don't think its firefox, either, cause it doesn't happen on any other site I go to.

    --
    Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
    1. Re:Firefox by Mz6 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well... I think someone submitted that as a Slashdot bug and they wrote it off as a Mozilla one instead.

      --
      Hmmm.
    2. Re:Firefox by Billobob · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It could have something to do with the fact that Slashdot doesn't exactly use standards-friendly HTML...

      --
      If you have to ask, you'll never know.
    3. Re:Firefox by datadriven · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I only use firefox. What render problems? I haven't been able to get IE to run on slackware anyway.

    4. Re:Firefox by AliasTheRoot · · Score: 4, Informative

      /. doesn't exactly produce the most compliant html...

      however I've never had any problems with the site using firefox.

    5. Re:Firefox by Mick+Ohrberg · · Score: 0, Redundant
      ...firefox has render problems on slashdot...

      How much of that is due to Firefox actually rendering wrong, versus how the HTML that Slashcode generates TELLS it to render? I.e, is it Firefox or the HTML on this site that's to blame?

      --

      Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.

    6. Re:Firefox by stinkyfingers · · Score: 1

      Additonally, pasting into message submission boxes doesn't work ... otherwise, I would have done son here.

    7. Re:Firefox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      firefox has render problems on slashdot

      No, that horrible yellow colour appears on all browsers (except lynx, of course)

    8. Re:Firefox by Malc · · Score: 3, Funny

      Come on now! You don't think the /. authors live up to expectations and actually develop under Linux using one of the many standard's compliant browsers do you? It's obvious that they code for and test with IE! ... how else could you explain it?

    9. Re:Firefox by angrist · · Score: 1

      I havn't had a problem with /. and firefox.

      Both at home (0.8 on OSX 10.3.5)
      and at work (0.9 on Windows 2k sp4)
      slashdot renders fine.

    10. Re:Firefox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I browse /. with Mozilla without any problems at all.

    11. Re:Firefox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Firefox I get text overlapping text from other table cells occasionally. Slashdot may have crappy HTML, but a browser should NEVER overlap table cells no matter how bad the code is.

    12. Re:Firefox by yohan1701 · · Score: 1

      the problem i have is that the side bar overlaps the main content all the time. so the background for sections will behind some of the text for the main content. its really annoying.

    13. Re:Firefox by hattig · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I think it is a problem with Firefox. I've noticed that it happens a lot on table layout pages, especially large ones. Livejournal can have the same problem.

      Basically it guesses widths of table cells/columns at some stage, then sticks with them as more of the page loads, and doesn't compensate for the new contents, which may include more tables, which will then overflow other elements on the page. Well, it is something like that. I think it could be solved by merely re-formatting the page after it has fully loaded ... although the simple Resize Font trick fixes everything anyway (ctrl+mousewheel)

    14. Re:Firefox by AliasTheRoot · · Score: 1

      wierd, doesn't do that for me - not on windows or linux. sounds like a font size thing.

    15. Re:Firefox by hattig · · Score: 5, Interesting

      What is sad is the multitudes of fixed HTML examples that Slashdot readers keep coming up with, but still haven't been used even though I remember some of them being done a year ago!

    16. Re:Firefox by The-Bus · · Score: 1

      Comparing Firefox 0.91 vs. Internet Explorer 6.0, rendering this page. Settings are nested.

      Right off the bat, IE is placing the Dell ad located under the story over some of the topic icons. This is only because I've got the browser resized to 1/3rd of the screen for side by side viewing. Firefox is displaying everything fine... I'm running all this in Windows XP.

      I do see problems with rendering for Firefox, mainly with the Universal Table Editor by Tom Wellige. Some Flash pages don't work as advertised, Quicktime doesn't auto-play, but that's about it.

      --

      Small potatoes make the steak look bigger.

    17. Re:Firefox by dsanfte · · Score: 2, Informative

      Occaisionally the slashdot homepage will not fully render in Firefox. It will appear blank except for images until a reload or two is done. The comments pages also tend to be text-biased too far left on occaision, rendering the comments' text a bit into the Sections and help left-sidebar. This is also fixed after three or four reloads.

      --
      occultae nullus est respectus musicae - originally a Greek proverb
    18. Re:Firefox by StRex · · Score: 2, Informative

      The funny thing is that, as mentioned elsewhere in this discussion, changing the font size using Ctrl+Mousewheel, and then changing back to the original size fixes the problem--until you refresh. It is particularly strange that the only site where I have Firefox rendering issues is /. though....

    19. Re:Firefox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      So that's the problem - Firefox rendering Slashdot. I just thought they were using a new sickening glowing olive color for the IT section.

    20. Re:Firefox by 0racle · · Score: 1

      Personally I've had more problems with IE rendering Slashdot then any other browser. Seems to me Slashdot and this colour scheme is seriously messed.

      --
      "I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
    21. Re:Firefox by hawkbug · · Score: 1

      I have the exact same problem, using either Mozilla or Firefox. The stupid side bar overlaps, but hitting refresh quickly fixes it.

    22. Re:Firefox by irokitt · · Score: 1

      The two combinations you mention do work perfectly. Firefox 0.9x has solve rendering issues for me, and I never had any rendering problems under Linux (Slackware 9.x, and every Firefox release since 0.7). Every Firefox version before 0.9 gave me serious issues when rendering Slashdot, but it was annoying, and I just learned to deal with it. In fact, whenever I used IE to look at Slashdot, I thought it looked funny.

      --
      If my answers frighten you, stop asking scary questions.
    23. Re:Firefox by Rob+Carr · · Score: 1
      Good, cause firefox has render problems on slashdot all the time (where as IE doesn't).

      I rarely get this problem. It really seems that the source of the problem is the advertisements on Slashdot. Since I started using Adblock, the problems seem to be way less. Sometimes, if Adblock takes care of the ad in a strange way, I'll get the problem, but a simple reload makes it go away.

      I feel sort of guilty about using Adblock on Slashdot. One of the prime reasons for getting a subscription is that you have to put up with less ads. I'm not putting up with any ads now....

      --
      This sig seemed like a good idea at the time....
    24. Re:Firefox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This sounds like an issue of firefox parseing a poorly coded web-site CORRECTLY... Had they written standards complient code it would work in every browser EXCEPT IE...... such is the way of the world...

      RavenSlay3r

    25. Re:Firefox by betelgeuse-4 · · Score: 1

      The W3C Markup Validation Service lists 141 errors in the HTML of the slashdot homepage. Interestingly, the Firefox website fails to give a doctype and has 8 errors (if it's meant to be HTML 4.01 Transitional).

    26. Re:Firefox by hattig · · Score: 1

      Err, I know! That what I posted. Simply bad table management because Slashdot uses tables for layout instead of divs and stylesheets.

      Reloading is a poor solution. Use the ctrl-mousewheel or ctrl-+ to resize the fonts which forces a repagination which sorts everything out.

    27. Re:Firefox by br0ck · · Score: 2, Informative

      They're working on it.

    28. Re:Firefox by DiscoFreq · · Score: 1

      I have the same problem, but not only on Slashdot (had it on a Belgian news site as well, and another site, but can't remember which one).
      I also have a few sites where I sometimes see the html source instead of the rendered page. It's always solved by a refresh.

    29. Re:Firefox by videodriverguy · · Score: 1

      Thanks for that useful tip! Having now spent the last couple of minutes trying to stop the stupid thing from either going too small or too large (overshooting the original size), I am going to make sure I NEVER try that again.

      Reminder to self - go and see optician tomorrow.

    30. Re:Firefox by Spellbinder · · Score: 1

      like this??
      i had this with half of the stories i tried to read at slashdot and it goes away if i refresh often enough (i do not think it is a firefox problem)
      but with all trying i could not make it happen with any of todays stories so it could be fixed

      --


      stop supporting microsoft with pirating their software!!!!!
    31. Re:Firefox by MattyCobb · · Score: 1

      Wierd... I have used Firefox forever and I havent seen any issues with Slashdot.... Hm...

      --

      Matt
      You have 1 Moderator Point! Use it or lose it! Is that a threat? -vapid
    32. Re:Firefox by bryhhh · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Occaisionally the slashdot homepage will not fully render in Firefox. It will appear blank except for images until a reload or two is done.

      I've seen this a few times, but it's been a while since I last saw it happen.

      The comments pages also tend to be text-biased too far left on occaision, rendering the comments' text a bit into the Sections and help left-sidebar.

      For what it's worth, this is caused by the vertical ad on the right side of the page.

      Even with the Adblock extension it still exhibits this behaviour.

    33. Re:Firefox by DonGar · · Score: 1

      I also have occasional rendering issues with Firefox, but a refresh of the page will fix them. It is really, really wierd.

      When it happens, then article/post text starts in the middle of the menus on the left hand side.

      The bit about the refresh makes me think that the server will occasionally abbreviate part of the formatting information. The difference in browsers is explained by the differences in handling really bad HTML. But that's just a guess.

      --
      plus-good, double-plus-good
    34. Re:Firefox by pgnas · · Score: 1

      Why in the world would you not test for all platforms?

      It really appears that MS is simply re-active to the situations, coming out with fixes to known vulnerabilities months after discovery does little to protect your customers. Microsoft, to me, is looking more and more like Novell did 7 years ago.

      The innovation is out the window, they are riding on the popularity of their flagship packages, their software is bloated and riddled with holes.

    35. Re:Firefox by hattig · · Score: 1

      ctrl-Plus and ctrl-Minus on the keyboard do the same thing if you have a dicky wheel on your mouse.

      No excuse for the dodgy Slashdot code however.

    36. Re:Firefox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How much of that is due to Firefox actually rendering wrong, versus how the HTML that Slashcode generates TELLS it to render? I.e, is it Firefox or the HTML on this site that's to blame?

      I know it's not cool to bash Firefox, but I'm almost 100% sure it's Firefox's bug. The problem can be fixed by simply hitting ctrl+ and ctrl- (enlarge and shrink shortcuts), so I can't see how anyone can say that Slashdot is producing something non-standard that Firefox can't handle. Firefox just doesn't render the HTML properly the first time.

    37. Re:Firefox by Reckless+Visionary · · Score: 2, Informative

      Apparently this is fixed on trunk, but not on the aviary branch.

      http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2175 27

      --
      I think I'll stop here.
    38. Re:Firefox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Not being funny but sites don't have to generate standards compliant HTML perfectly to work.

      It depends on what the actual faults are.

      Most of the ones picked up on slash are extra tags in <table> statements which firefox should ignore if it doesn't understand, and the borked URLs that the lameness filter in slashdot makes screwing up the GET variables in them.

      Neither of these should cause a browser to break on rendering.

      Sure slash *should* generate standards compliant HTML, but just fixing the things that crop up on validator.w3.org isn't going to fix the problems in firefox that are fairly obviously bugs (since the fix is just to resize text up then back down as mentioned in a post somewhere in this thread).

    39. Re:Firefox by blobglob · · Score: 1

      I had this problem too until I updated to Firefox 0.9(.1/.2). Before that I used the trick to change the text size up and then back to normal, which miraculously solves all rendering problems.

      One site that I still find doesn't render properly is Teoma. I always use Google though, so that doesn't affect me nearly so much as Slashdot.

    40. Re:Firefox by hazem · · Score: 1

      For me, using either Mozilla or Firefox, on both Windows 98 & XP and Suse 9.1 as well, sometimes the main body of Slashdot goes right over to the left hand side. The stuff that's normally on the left side sits on top of the main content.

      Hitting refresh 2 or 3 times usually fixes it.

    41. Re:Firefox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Had a problem as well, the other day only the posting would show up with the side bar and everthing else at the bottom (was using 0.9.1)

    42. Re:Firefox by brainache · · Score: 1

      Ive never had any trouble, and im a Firefox addict.

    43. Re:Firefox by wud · · Score: 1

      Good, cause firefox has render problems on slashdot all the time (where as IE doesn't). I don't think its firefox, either, cause it doesn't happen on any other site I go to.


      I've been using firefox for about 6 months and i read slashdot atleast 10 hours a week and i've never had any trouble at all.

      --
      wud
    44. Re:Firefox by gwalla · · Score: 1
      I think it is a problem with Firefox. I've noticed that it happens a lot on table layout pages, especially large ones. Livejournal can have the same problem.

      I've seen table problems in LiveJournal under Mozilla, but that doesn't sound like what's happening. It seems like the problem is usually caused by unclosed table tags in somebody's post.

      This is not to say that Mozilla's layout engine couldn't stand some improvement, however. Actually following the Unicode line breaking properties spec, for example.
      --
      Oper on the Nightstar
    45. Re:Firefox by sharkey · · Score: 1
      Good, cause firefox has render problems on slashdot all the time (where as IE doesn't).

      It's not Firefox, Taco picked these colors on PURPOSE. It looks like the same shit in Firefox, Opera and IE.

      --

      --
      "Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
    46. Re:Firefox by LiquidCoooled · · Score: 1

      if you have a proxy html filter (proximatron or similar) thats removing certain parts of the markup, then its possible that this occurs because your removing a bit more than you thought.

      Since the adverts are on a randomish cycle, that could explain the 2 or 3 refresh thing.

      tis a possibility :)

      --
      liqbase :: faster than paper
    47. Re:Firefox by hattig · · Score: 1

      Nah, Livejournal problems I've had in Firefox are, regardless of post, after a certain amount down the page the right border of the angst entry boxes goes right too far. I think those boxes are merely divs as well (haven't checked) so it is a problem in Firefox's layout routines that calculate width of elements to fit in a page.

    48. Re:Firefox by johannesg · · Score: 1

      What exactly do you call "render problems"? If you are referring to the left column slightly overlapping (by maybe five pixels) the main column, I get that in Mozilla too. However, it is not a major disaster that renders the site utterly useless (as you make it sound) - it is a minor irritation at best, and you can make it go away in any number of ways, such as changing text size or forcing a reload. Still, I hope the Mozilla people will fix it eventually...

    49. Re:Firefox by PReDiToR · · Score: 1

      Try hitting "CTRL +" and then "CTRL -" to up the font size, then lower it again. That will fix it right up and without /.ing /.

      --

      Do not meddle in the affairs of geeks for they are subtle and quick to anger
    50. Re:Firefox by gwalla · · Score: 1

      Hmm. I've never seen that (or maybe I have but I didn't notice it). Weird.

      --
      Oper on the Nightstar
    51. Re:Firefox by NanoGator · · Score: 1

      "Well... I think someone submitted that as a Slashdot bug and they wrote it off as a Mozilla one instead."

      That's a thoughtless attitude of any web developer.

      --
      "Derp de derp."
    52. Re:Firefox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I only use firefox. What render problems? I haven't been able to get IE to run on slackware anyway.

      The Microsoft ads at the top of the page. They don't always show up in FireFox or Mozilla.

    53. Re:Firefox by gphinch · · Score: 1

      Sorry but this belief is common among people who don't know much about the web, so I'm going to be blunt:

      WRONG

      Firefox and every non-IE broswer follow the World Wide Web Consortium (Found here) standards. The good folks at Microsoft, in typical Microsoft standards, decided that they knew more about web coding than a bunch of internationally renowned experts who devote much of their waking hours to the web. Bascially, Microsoft is letting people get away with coding things really poorly. Once you learn how to make web pages in proper xhtml with style sheets, it's actually faster to do a site, and the results will not only look the same across all platforms (except IE, which botches up proper coding while rendering the bad), but will be viewable on all computers with browsers, and can even accomodate disabled users well. So don't blame Firefox, blame IE for allowing (and even forcing) people to code their pages incorrectly.

      --
      in bed.
    54. Re:Firefox by hattig · · Score: 1

      Why? It messes up rendering Slashdot, a table layouted site, which it shouldn't however badly the HTML otherwise ... table cells shouldn't overlap, as pointed out elsewhere in this thread. Firefox can render it correctly given a reformat. It is a problem with Firefox, a minor, rare, problem, but still a problem.

    55. Re:Firefox by gphinch · · Score: 1

      Slashdot is a good example of a site that isn't coded up to standards. Shocking for a nerd site, I know, but true none the less. See here for more

      --
      in bed.
    56. Re:Firefox by hawkbug · · Score: 1

      Yeah, if you use ColdFusion 6.X (aka MX) on a linux server, the administrator page can't be read in Mozilla because it's all source. It takes IE to administer it....

    57. Re:Firefox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most sites aren't coded to standards, except the defacto Netscape3-ish HTML like Slashdot. That's why every single browser in existence handles slop.

      That being a given, the slashdot/firefox problem is intermittent, and there IS a confirmed bug for it in bugzilla.

    58. Re:Firefox by taylortbb · · Score: 1

      No, /. certainily doesn't, if you don't believe me look here:
      http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fsla shdot.org%2F

    59. Re:Firefox by discogravy · · Score: 1

      it's a new module for apache (make-their-eyes-bleed.css if you're interested.)

    60. Re:Firefox by Mycroft_VIII · · Score: 1

      lol, slashdot blocks the w3 validator. I try it and get:

      I got the following unexpected response when trying to retrieve <http://slashdot.org>:

      403 Forbidden

      Please make sure you have entered the URL correctly.

      Tried it with your link and directly, same result.

      Mycroft

      --
      https://signup.leagueoflegends.com/?ref=4c3ed6600b6ea
    61. Re:Firefox by jseale · · Score: 1

      ...and for that matter, Thunderbird, the companion e-mail app, isn't compatible with Sony Clie's e-mail conduit. I have to use either Eudora or MS Outlook on my desktop to get e-mail on my Clie. Since this Outlook/MSIE bruhaha has been going on I've been struggling with Eudora, one of the worst desktop e-mail apps there is IMHO. Mozilla's e-mail clien't isn't compatible with the Clie e-mail conduit either. This sucks!!

    62. Re:Firefox by tcp_len · · Score: 1

      Good, cause firefox has render problems on slashdot...

      Do you have an example on this??? I have been using Firefox since earlier this year and mozzila before that never had a problem with slashdot or any other osdn site please post a link for a section that doesn't render correclty. I need to see for my self so that i can join you and together we will use IE!!!!

    63. Re:Firefox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and together we will use IE!!!!

      and together you will get fucked in the ass..

  4. Damn by Billobob · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Note that this does not mean that they are replacing IE with FireFox.

    Awww damn, and here I thought that Microsoft would include one of its strongest competing products instead of it's own that millions of dollars were funneled in to. Maybe I'm just too naive...

    --
    If you have to ask, you'll never know.
  5. Does anyone use IE anymore? by AngryScot · · Score: 4, Interesting

    and if they do why?

    I mannaged to get my work to use fireFox after showing them a /. thread about it

    --

    All spelling mistakes are due to solar flares...honest

    1. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by neilcSD · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Of course they do. IE is by far the most used browser in the world. It is, after all, included with the most used OS's in the world. Those who know their stuff don't use a lot of Microsoft products, but a lot of people aren't in the know.

    2. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by dotslasher_sri · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Many users are not aware that there are good alternatives to IE. What firefox needs is publicity. Sure we all know about firefox but many home users havent heard about it yet.

    3. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by ErichTheRed · · Score: 4, Informative

      The problem I found is that a lot of web apps are coded for IE's "extensions" that don't translate over to Firefox. We have a few internal apps at work like that, but there are public examples too. E.g, my power company paid some contractor to put together an online bill pay system for them, and obviously they're not interested in fixing it. Open the page in IE, and it works fine. Open it in Firefox, and you get a blank screen.

    4. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      i open IE about once a day to look at pages that don't load in firefox

    5. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by smooth+wombat · · Score: 1

      We still do and I work for one of the larger departments in our Commonwealth (PA). We have to because we are using SAP (arrrrrrrrrggghhhhhhh!!!!!!)

      That doesn't stop me from using Firebird though. My supervisors supervisor and I have talked about it and even though it is not a 'standard' apllication he has no problems with it.

      Then again, I work in the IT department and the whole attitude here is pretty easy going. There has been talk of trying to use Linux in some of our servers as well as using other open source apps (Firebird/Mozilla for instance) but nothing has come down yet.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    6. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by LilJC · · Score: 1
      Many users are not aware that there are good alternatives to IE. What firefox needs is publicity. Sure we all know about firefox but many home users havent heard about it yet.

      For the time being, that's just as well. My corp runs Mozilla exclusively. They're so hooked they won't touch IE with a ten foot pole. That being said...

      What Firefox needs is a web that is mostly compliant with W3 standards, not MS standards. Until IE loses about 10% more user-base to Mozilla, Firefox, etc web developers will continue to make sites that not only favor IE, but if push comes to shove will only work with IE.

      In the meantime, Firefox will wait in the wings for the common man when the web is ready for it.

      --

      The only thing more dangerous than a file named -rf is renaming it -rf\ /
    7. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by rscrawford · · Score: 1

      I work for a distance education organization, and most of our students still use IE. However, in our office we use Firefox, Netscape, IE, and Safari (on our Macintosh test station). We've also officially announced on our marketing website that we support Firefox 0.9.2, and have listed Firefox at the top of the list of supported browsers (Netscape is second, IE is third). To our users that inquire, we actively recommend against IE for security reasons, but we still test in it.

      However, there are still people in my office (marketing) who use IE because they just can't grok that there are alternatives. For such people, IE is the Internet.

      --
      -- The reason it's called the right wing? Irony.
    8. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by syates21 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Please feel free to demonstrate how FireFox can seamlessly (and securely) used a user's workstation credentials to authenticate to a web server without requiring a username/password as IE does with Windows Integrated Authentication.

      That is one of the larger issues that cannot be solved by just tweaking some HTML to make it more compliant. It's also a big deal from a user experience standpoint in the corporate intranet world.

    9. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by Unnngh! · · Score: 2, Interesting
      If you look at most large websites that get lots of hits from the random public (i.e. yahoo, etc.), I think you will find that their browser stats show 90-99% of people using IE. Several years ago the place I worked at was at the 99% mark with IE so we simply stopped worrying about Netscape compliance, etc.

      Those numbers may have changed some since '99 but even back then Netscape was supposed to be "big". It just wasn't big enough for us to care.

    10. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "The problem I found is that a lot of web apps are coded for IE's "extensions" that don't translate over to Firefox... my power company paid some contractor to put together an online bill pay system for them, and obviously they're not interested in fixing it."

      Complain! Even with major companies it can be that easy. Verizon Wireless's pages were IE-only for a while - I (along with many others, I'm sure) complained about it and threatened to take my business elsewhere; and they fixed it.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    11. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So it's ok 'cause some web-monkeys are morons? So, if your work decided to hire contractors who use 'extensions' to proper accounting practices, would this be ok, too? How about if the power company you cite hired contractors who put equipment in place which started pumping 880v down their main lines (resulting in 220 coming out of you wall socket) and fried every piece of electrical equipment you own, would this be ok?

      And, I'm really not so much picking on you as whoever was the dumbass(es) which thought this was 'Informative'.......

    12. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by localhost00 · · Score: 1
      When I am in Windows, I use IE.

      Why? Because I know how to utilize the Security settings. No Javascript nor ActiveX controls will run from any site that I have not approved.

      --

      Calling atheism and agnosticism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.

    13. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by tdemark · · Score: 1

      securely ... without requiring a username/password

      Does anyone else see a problem with this?

      Just because a person logs in to a terminal at 8 AM in the morning, does it follow that an access from that terminal at 4 PM is the same person?

      Doesn't sound like a failing of Firefox, but a failing in the intranet application design.

      - Tony

    14. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by grahamdrew · · Score: 1

      Yes, primarily because of Microsoft Project Web Access. I would really have no problems packaging up Firefox here at work and distributing it in the next upgrade cycle all over the company if it wasn't for Project. Project is a Must-Have here as it's the system we all use for entering our billable time.

      Do I expect Firefox to be able to use the Project server? No, the interface is purely ActiveX driven. None the less, there's no way I could switch over our company to a browser that doesn't work on the single most important site on our Intranet.

      --
      // Dumps core here
    15. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gee, so you are suggesting another major Microsoft IE security hole is a good feature. Using the work station's credentials is just a terrible idea form a security stand point.

    16. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by Atzanteol · · Score: 1

      Use client certificates instead? Sure, it's not using Windows credentials, but it's nearly as easy. After the certs are installed (couple steps) they just 'magically work' as far as the end user is concerned.

      --
      "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"

      - Charles Darwin
    17. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess you're not letting your precious Firefox remember any passwords for you, then. The fact that that feature even exists is obviously a failed application design.

    18. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I work for a very large corporation, with employees ranging at least in the hundreds of thousands, if not more. When corporate IT puts the newest releases of IE on every single desktop, and states that we *will* use it as the one browser, we use IE. A few holdouts still use Netscape 4.7, as they work on contracts requiring it for some reason.

      As an internal web developer, I try to make sure my apps. are cross-browser compliant, but I am not everyone. Even some of the web apps. we use that have come from 3rd parties only work properly in IE.

      Considering the internal project I work on has been fighting with Corporate for months now over getting just one tiny Linux box for running CVS (Open Source?! We don't know how to back up something that's not a Windows box!), I'd hate to see the hell it takes to get Firefox, Opera, or anything else in here.

      There are a lot of 400 lb. gorilla IT depts. out there running the computing for large corps. They don't like the security holes, but there's no budging them off IE. Combine that with the fact that non-technical people want to use one browser at home and work, and well, you have IE all over the place.

      I have Firefox at home and love it. I turn on others where I can. I wish we had it at work, as my life would be easier. But, there's nothing I can do about that 400 lb. gorilla.

    19. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by SomeGuyFromCA · · Score: 1

      So instead of using a browser that can safely do Java etc., you use a browser that can't safely do Java and compensate by turning off Java?

      --
      if the answer isn't violence, neither is your silence / freedom of expression doesn't make it alright
    20. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since nobody else is taking you seriously I'll reply to say damn good point, firefox needs automated NTLM auth support and not just the current NTLM support where the user has to type their login and pass.

      Of course this would probably need some kind of windows extension to provide the details to firefox in the first place (as it does IE), it couldn't really go poking around the registry grabbing out passwords as thats a bit close to being spyware.

    21. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by Reckless+Visionary · · Score: 1

      document.all

      --
      I think I'll stop here.
    22. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by jerw134 · · Score: 1

      Those numbers are still the same today. I am the web guy at a radio station with a pretty popular website. The current percentage of non-IE browsers used to access the site is 2.69%. That includes Netscape, Mozilla, Opera, Firefox, and Safari. The most popular non-IE browser is Netscape 7.1, with 0.76%.

    23. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by Karzz1 · · Score: 1

      Unless I am mistaken, you are talking about *file* browsing not *web* browsing. Two entirely different animals.

      --
      Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.
    24. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by iantri · · Score: 1
      Are you talking about NTLM authentication?

      It is built into the recent versions of Mozilla/Firefox..

      How it works, exactly, I am not sure, since I am not familiar with NTLM authentication. Google is your friend in this case.

    25. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by malfunct · · Score: 1
      Not that this fixes the underlying problem or is it necessarily a great solution, but here goes anyway.

      Why doesn't the community exploit the wonders of open source modifyability to add an option to have an IE compatible mode in firefox. Where basically if you hit a page that doesn't not render right using the W3C standards you allow a menu option that re-renders the page in IE compat mode and keeps in IE compat mode until you ask to be out of it. This would allow firefox to work either way.

      --

      "You can now flame me, I am full of love,"

    26. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by It'sYerMam · · Score: 2, Insightful
      So basically, instead of using a secure browser, your cripple the insecure, featureless, bloated one in the hope that it'll be vaguely acceptable in the security department at least?
      What about Tabbed Browsing, extensions, standards compliance and all that?

      Firefox is more than IE SP2...

      --
      im in ur .sig, writin ur memes.
    27. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So... Lot's of competing power companies in your area?

    28. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by anomalous+cohort · · Score: 2, Informative
      Open the page in IE, and it works fine. Open it in Firefox, and you get a blank screen.

      This is what I do when I run into one of those mysterious "blank screens."

      • Launch konqueror
      • Configure konqueror to identify itself as Internet Explorer to the web server
      • Surf to the offending page

      This gets me past the "blank screen" problem about 75% of the time.

    29. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by ticktockticktock · · Score: 1

      So you compromise your security that much just to browse one page?

    30. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by jez9999 · · Score: 1

      Firebird? What's Firebird? We are at war with Firefox. We have always been at war with Firefox.

    31. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by aWalrus · · Score: 3, Informative

      That conclusion is a non sequitur, since it is usually made from the standpoint of webmasters who have non-compliant sites that break in alternate browsers. If you're looking at the traffic statistics for your site that breaks in Firefox, it is *obvious* that you won't find very many Firefox users, since you're driving them away.

      To provide some numbers, check the Google Zeitgeist. Although it does show that IE 6 has a clear dominance, the Mozilla traffic is on par with IE 5.0 and IE 5.5 -- If you support those, you should support Mozilla.

      If you go to more techie-oriented sites you'll see very different results. In my site's own stats, IE accounts for less than 50% of visitors (and yes, there *are* more than 5 people visiting daily).

      --
      Overcaffeinated. Angry geeks.
    32. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by binner1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because that would just cause braindead developers to continue to do things wrong. Firefox is gaining momentum lately...a little message from the DHS gets people's attention much better than I ever did. I've since switched several people to firefox (they all love tabs, etc now).

      The more people we switch, the more people who will complain that websites are broken.

      Things will get better/are getting better. FOSS software should be relentless in its pursuit of implementing standards completely, and sticking to them. If we start tossing in hacks to support other broken software, we've already lost.

      -Ben

    33. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by TheSpoom · · Score: 1

      Patents.

      --
      It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
      - E. Debs
    34. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I'll wait for Konquerer to be developed for Windows. Or for that matter, KDE. And no, I don't mean KDE on Cygwin, I mean an actual Windows version.

      Tabbed browsing is great, but I still prefer Konquerer over Firefox in that department.

      Extensions? I certainly have no use for extensions. That is a feature I don't use.

      Standards Compliance? Ha! Maybe you need to give me a specific example of how Internet Explorer is not standards-compliant. Last time I checked, B, U, I, P, IMG, TITLE, TABLE, TR, TD, and many more tags that work in any browser seems to work the same way in Internet Explorer.

      Is there anything wrong with changing the standards? Last time I checked, most people still use Internet Explorer. Are you too conservative to allow standards to change? I don't think your average user will give a shit about standards compliance because as far as they know, Internet Explorer still works.

    35. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      If I go to a site that's coded for IE extensions, (or $deity forbid - ActiveX), I simply go elsewhere. They're not the only place selling their friggin widgets, and they just lost a customer.

      Oh - I'm simply a techno-terrorist, geek syndrome, low demographic? Wise up! Most users are and abandoning IE.

    36. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by tdemark · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I guess you're not letting your precious Firefox remember any passwords for you, then.

      First of all, I use Safari all the time - unless I am on a Window or Linux box, then I use Firefox.

      Second, correct, I do NOT let any browser remember passwords or sites I have visited (with the exception of the ones in my bookmarks).

      Third, there is a difference between me the user making a bad security decision and the server (IE / Intranet) not giving me a choice.

      - Tony

    37. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by isoga · · Score: 1
      I think thats a great idea!

      There should be a toggle that re-renders the page using the IE ActiveX control embedded in the Firefox window. :)

      Until someone does that, there is an extension that gives a right click 'open in IE' option

      dave

    38. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by Unnngh! · · Score: 1
      Actually, that stat is for Netscape 5.x+ including Mozilla. I'm not entirely sure what Netscape 5.x is since IIRC they ditched that whole development branch but I assume it includes Netscape 6 and 7.

      We actually used to test for Netscape compliance, which I did not explicitly mention in my post, but with a new product line and the death of Netscape I wondered how much point there was to this, thus my trip to the network admin for our server stats.

      I am all for firefox/mozilla. These are awesome products far and away superior to IE. I'm just continually astounded by the bone-crushing dominance in market share of IE. Hopefully this turns around in the near future...

    39. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by HermanZA · · Score: 1
      IE Compatibility mode?

      No, no - then Sloshdatters won't have anything to complain about anymore...

    40. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      by placing NT on all desktops, then
      setting up the enterprise intranet IIS to accept only MS authentication
      even those of us who have alternates installed need to resort to IE

    41. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      actually, thanks to recent liberalization of the sector we have 3

    42. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by deaddrunk · · Score: 1

      The users don't really count unless they're senior management. I've just left a place where they were still using Win 95 and no amount of bitching from us mere users would get them to change to something decent. If the company mandated Firefox then that's what the users would have on their desktops.

      --
      Does a Christian soccer team even need a goalkeeper?
    43. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by malfunct · · Score: 1

      There are MS owned patents on incorrectly rendering html that forces other browsers to correctly render it and get bad results?

      --

      "You can now flame me, I am full of love,"

    44. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a Network Admin, and you seem to be having trouble grasping the concept the previous poster explained.

      If you design a website that doesn't work properly in any browser except IE, it doesn't matter what statistics you cull that show IE with 99%+ of the market - because you designed your site wrong, non-IE users have no choice except not go to your site. Hence you can come up with all kinds of statistics.

      As a general rule if a Site doesn't work properly with Safari, Firefox, or Camino, I just don't go there. That means you'll get 3 hits from me, then nothing, ever again. As you may gather, this kind of behavior has a way of distorting statistics.

    45. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by filipvh · · Score: 1

      I do.

      I use Firefox 99% of the time, but still today some sites just don't work properly if it's not IE.

      You might say "don't use the site" but if that's the only place you can get the driver update for your obscure piece of hardware you'd reconsider too.

    46. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by jerw134 · · Score: 1

      Well, my site has been tested in all of the non-IE browsers I listed in my post, and it renders perfectly in all of them. Now, explain that.

    47. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by aWalrus · · Score: 1

      So, you're saying your site is more representative than Google? Check the Zeitgeist graph. It doesn't have numbers, but that graph definitely shows more non-IE traffic than 2.69%

      I don't know the url of your site. If you provide it I may be able to venture an educated guess. Too much Flash? Uses Real? Low usability? Listed in MS search engines only? Deal with OEMs so that it is bookmarked by default? spyware leads to it? There are any number of reasons why you could have those stats.

      I'd also venture a guess that your site does not cater to Apple users at all, since they're usually a big chunk of traffic, and most are not using IE anymore (have you checked your OS stats?)

      --
      Overcaffeinated. Angry geeks.
    48. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by aWalrus · · Score: 1

      By the way, I just checked the Google Zeitgeist Image in an image editing program, and it shows approximately 7% non-IE traffic, just for clarification.

      --
      Overcaffeinated. Angry geeks.
    49. Re:Does anyone use IE anymore? by innocent_white_lamb · · Score: 1

      Just because a person logs in to a terminal at 8 AM in the morning, does it follow that an access from that terminal at 4 PM is the same person?

      Probably, if it's from the CEO's private office and so forth and so on.

      Not everywhere needs "military grade" security.

      --
      If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
  6. Not firefox by ChrisMG999 · · Score: 1, Funny

    They're replacing it with Safari

  7. I've migrated ove... by Ratchet · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ...the most finiky of users, my Mom, to Firefox without her even knowing it. Now if Dad would stop playing Solitaire long enough for me to get at his computer then I'd de-IE him as well.

    1. Re:I've migrated ove... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I did the same after wiping my mom's computer clean to get rid of the mass of viruses and malware she'd accumulated. People are inclined to think that FOSS like Firefox is only for power users, but in this case it actually does more for the less enlightened users who don't understand what buttons not to push.

      "I don't understand how to use it," she told me.
      "Click the fox instead of the e," I replied, and that was all the explanation necessary.

    2. Re:I've migrated ove... by maduro55 · · Score: 0

      You ARE a good child. If I could only get my parents to use a PC at home.....

  8. Slashdot by john_smith_45678 · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...where I come for all my MS IE patch news.

    1. Re:Slashdot by LilJC · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Parent has been modded funny, but I think a lot of us do.

      I've walked into work before with the owners complaining of not being able to get to half the web sites they like to peruse and hit slashdot to see what's up. Half the time I'm back in 20 seconds with an satisfactory explanation about a recent or in-progress attack.

      Of course, I have to (for the umpteenth time) explain to my boss/CEO that I can't fix other peoples' servers, only ours. Wish I could at least get that guy to remember how a sort works in Excel.

      --

      The only thing more dangerous than a file named -rf is renaming it -rf\ /
    2. Re:Slashdot by OECD · · Score: 1

      ...where I come for all my MS IE patch news.

      I actually do (but then I'm primarally a Mac user.) However, it seems I end up getting the news later than others I know. I would think that exploits like this would be put up ASAP. Is there something about way /. puts up stories that seems to put them behind the curb? Is the submission process inherently slow?

      --
      One man's -1 Flamebait is another man's +5 Funny.
    3. Re:Slashdot by thebes · · Score: 0
      Is the submission process inherently slow?

      You haven't been here for a while, have you?

  9. Firefox is not necessary by darth_MALL · · Score: 1, Funny

    From the article: "Our users should have confidence that as long as they're running the latest browser with all the latest security fixes, they will have the most powerful and secure browsing experience," So there you go. Nothing to see here. Move Along.

  10. /. threads work like that?! by UFNinja · · Score: 2, Funny

    Maybe I can convince my boss to let me play Doom 3 on my workstation. I'll just show him a /. thread on it. ;-)

    1. Re:/. threads work like that?! by tehcyder · · Score: 1
      My boss said he had no problem as long as I could get it to work on my RAM 700MHz Celeron with Intel "extreme" built-in graphics.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  11. Firefox is not the answer. by garcia · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I am throwing Karma out the window on this one as my comments on this subject fall on deaf ears here but... Firefox is not an acceptable replacement for IE for 90% of the users out there so I really think we could have done without the snide comment.

    Yesterday I mentioned that nearly everyone who visits my site with Firefox are coming in from Slashdot URLs. It may come as a surprise to you but more than 90% of the Internet users out there aren't aware or concerned with IE vulnerabilities. It may also come as a surprise to you but Firefox isn't exactly the best browser out there if you want 100% compatibility with the "broken" sites on the Internet. These same users that don't know of the issues w/IE are more concerned that they cannot reach their online banking, see their sites the way that the "broken" authors intended, and have a seamless browsing experience.

    Firefox is not the answer to MS' issues. Better preparation for security is.

    1. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by kid_wonder · · Score: 5, Informative

      I disagree. I use firefox for just about everything; online banking, online account management, etc. Every once in a while I need to open up IE to view a flash animation or some other stupid site that uses ActiveX - but at that point I know what they are trying to do and can establish the risks of going to it in IE.

      btw, regarding all these /. problems, for some reason I get this render problem intermittently, but a simple reload typically handles the problem.

      --

      "Oh, you hate your job? There's a support group for that, it's called everyone, they meet at the bar."
    2. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by PeteQC · · Score: 5, Informative

      There is a lot of "broken" sites that won't be right in IE when Microsoft will release it's SP2 for XP with a lot of added security to IE.

      Pop-up won't show, and all the non-correctly defined elements won't show right neither. So, maybe finally the webmasters will correct their sites.

      --
      Montreal - Best city to live in!
    3. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by Malc · · Score: 1

      To most people it's not the sites or authors who are broken, but Firefox!

    4. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure why you think Firefox is not an acceptable replacement for 90% of IE users. I constantly convert friends and business customers over to Firefox all the time, and I have yet to hear a complaint. The only feedback I've received so far has been very positive. I think most people though, don't even realize a change has occured (I change the firefox icon to that ugly IE blue E) You need to install Flash, director, adobe, etc, to make sure they can do the stuff they're used to, but Firefox seems to do every thing they need. The only time I don't switch people over is when they use some crummy Intranet application that uses ActiveX or something.

    5. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by mbourgon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "more than 90% of the Internet users out there aren't aware or concerned with IE vulnerabilities."

      That's odd. At least every week I have someone mention some new spyware or popup they run into, and how do I deal with it. Many of them are now quite happily running Mozilla or Firefox.

      And the problem with viewing people's sites isn't my problem, it's the site's. If it doesn't work, I go elsewhere. And my bank's site works just fine with Moz.

      --
      "Sometimes a woman is a kind of religion, she can save your soul & set you free from all your sins" - Bad Examples
    6. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by p4ul13 · · Score: 1, Redundant
      Ocassionally the text overlaps with the menu on the left side of /.

      A page refresh usually clears this up for me.

      --
      Paul Lenhart writes words!
    7. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by DarkBlackFox · · Score: 1

      Better preparation for security is.

      Yes, and this "better preparation" is coming in the form of XP SP2. However, as a result, a number of the "broken" sites on the Internet will no longer function in IE either, as security features already present in Firefox are added to IE.

      From what I've read so far, the compatibility of Internet Explorer will most likely drop down to or even a bit lower than that of Firefox, come service pack 2.

    8. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by the_mad_poster · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      What a load.

      Give me a broken site with a significant level of traffic (in other words, don't give me some 13 year old kid's site hosted off Geocities) that doesn't work in Firefox 0.8. Or, were you talking out your ass?

      I use it exclusively on three different boxes - the only exception is work where I'm forced to use IE and I limit my browsing to about a dozen sites. 0.7 solved almost all of the rendering "problems" that the multitudes of completely clueless web developers caused. I've never seen a site render improperly in 0.8 except /., and even this broken-ass POS loads right most of the time now that I use 0.8. The rare exceptions to this rule are the occasional sites that are so broken they have a browser sniffer. I've encountered ONE site of significance like that (other sites were all personal sites playing stupid Javascript parlor tricks). Changed the UA and it worked just fine. Company caved to complaints less than 2 days after launching said broken-ass site and removed the sniffer.

      I call bullshit.

      --
      Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
    9. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by kwandar · · Score: 1

      I don't honestly know what 90% of the users you are referring to, but I've been slowly replacing Is on my friend's, family, and now my employees machines.

      No one complains, they are all happy, functionality is similar and IE users easily adapt to it. I've only encountered one person with an issue - they used the portfolio tracking section related to the Globe & Mail didn't seem to act properly. I didn't have time to investigate so moved them back to IE temporarily.

      Unlike many other open source products, I've found Firefox to be easily accepted and in fact welcomed, by 90%+ of those I try it on.

      And - while many users are not aware, I'm finding a surprising number who are becoming aware of IE vulnerabilities.

    10. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by sahuaro · · Score: 1
      ". . .more than 90% of the Internet users out there aren't aware or concerned with IE vulnerabilities."

      So what are you saying? That ignorance is bliss?

      ". . .you want 100% compatibility with the "broken" sites on the Internet."

      Doesn't this play right into Microsoft's hand? Shouldn't we be educating the public that some sites are broken (because they require IE) and need to be fixed.

      Dennisk

      --
      Phoenix Linux Users Group
      Penguins in the desert
    11. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by Incoherent07 · · Score: 1

      I'll put it this way:

      Most people don't care which TV has the absolute best picture quality, or the biggest screen. They buy a TV which has good enough picture quality, a large enough size, and fits in their budget.

      In the case of IE vs. Firefox, cost is a non-issue. Something like 95% of computers come with Windows. Firefox is a free download. So the decision really comes down to "is it good enough". IE, being the majority browser by a huge margin, displays pretty much every site that people want to visit. (The only site I've ever come across which is essentially unusable in IE is the Mozilla extensions page.)

      This notion of "good enough" versus "best" seems to be a huge problem for some of the OSS zealots roaming around Slashdot. And as far as the average Joe User is concerned, Firefox is NOT the best browser, for reasons that the parent stated.

      --
      This is my sig. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.
    12. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by garcia · · Score: 1

      That's odd. At least every week I have someone mention some new spyware or popup they run into, and how do I deal with it. Many of them are now quite happily running Mozilla or Firefox.

      That's odd. Most of the people I know have little to no idea what Spyware is, how to combat it other than to run Adaware, and that it comes from the issues built into IE. You are either talking to a better informed group (which I assume you are), the people that I know are just that clueless about computers and the world around them, or you are exaggerating to make your point.

    13. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by Misch · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and I just noticed this on a site I need to use for work...

      Attention Netscape Users! The FSAFEDS web site now supports Netscape browser versions 6.1, or higher due to accessibility requirements.

      Good 'ol 508. Funny thing is that their site worked on Firefox anyways. (It's mostly forms, html pages, & a few PDF's.)

      --

      --You will rephrase your request for me to go to hell. Goto statements are not acceptable programming constructs
    14. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by thirteenVA · · Score: 1

      WOW! are you saying people need to keep using IE because 'broken' sites exist due to poor developers?

      Well then maybe i should wear a condom under my pants because people are walking around with HIV.

    15. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1

      Huh? The reason Firefox isn't a good replacement is because so many sites out there have been tuned for IE's non-standard rendering? That's not Firefox's fault. That is the fault of the people that set up those few offending sites.

      Few sites are like that, although there are some, like Engenius Tech's site that won't bother serving a page to Firefox, that's not Firefox's fault either.

    16. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by stratjakt · · Score: 1

      Or a submitted post will come back to a blank screen, rather than the "Submitted" page.

      I've seen lots of weird quirks viewing /. on Firefox (same quirks with big brother Mozilla too). Oh, the irony of it, that /. seems to have been coded specifically for IE.

      --
      I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
    17. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I doubt it was coded specifically for IE, just that most of the code was written years ago when people were more lax, or at least didn't know better.

      Granted, /. folks *should* know better, but, that's another topic.

    18. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by garcia · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Give me a broken site with a significant level of traffic (in other words, don't give me some 13 year old kid's site hosted off Geocities) that doesn't work in Firefox 0.8. Or, were you talking out your ass?

      http://slashdot.org (left side overlaps main text requiring a page refresh to correct -- this has been noted MANY times and not corrected).

      http://geocaching.com/my (fonts do not render correctly. I have to routinely change the sizes in order to view the page even half-acceptably -- strangely enough this happens on many pages but never with IE).

    19. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by Gabey · · Score: 1

      Everyone seems to put all this faith into SP2...but let's face it: a significant portion of the population doesn't install patches to begin with. What makes anyone think they're going to sit through a download 10x bigger...and that's assuming they even know about it.

      SP2 will be popular in corporations (hopefully), but as far as the end users who are causing all the problems to begin with, I don't see much of a change coming.

    20. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by R2.0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The reasons you state do not support your assertion that "Firefox is not an acceptable replacement for IE for 90% of the users out there"

      1)"more than 90% of the Internet users out there aren't aware or concerned with IE vulnerabilities"
      So what? That has no bearing on whether Firefox would be an acceptable replacement. It might address WHY people find no incentive to switch, but not whether that switch would bew a good idea.

      2)"Firefox isn't exactly the best browser out there if you want 100% compatibility with the "broken" sites on the Internet". Question? Is IE 100% compatible with "broken" sites? Thought not. Some sites don't work well, IE or no IE, and users are aware of this. There will always be crappy sites, and users blaming the software instead of the site - that is not a reason why Firefox can't replace IE for the average user.

      Also, are there any statistics on how many sites are "actually" poorly rendered w. Firefox? 1%, 5%, 10%, 20%? My experience is that it's way down into single digits, but that is anecdotal.

      Finally, what is "a seamless browsing experience?" Other than marketingspeak, I don't understand its meaning. When MS uses the phrase, it is as justifivation for browser integration, but that always struck me as a red herring to cover anti-competitive practices. Does the phrase mean anything real?

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    21. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      I still would like someone to post a list of sites that don't work because of a true firefox issue. Sometimes, some sites are just badly designed, and the differences in rendering engines allows them to look "ok" in one browser, but not another.

      My main bank works perfectly fine with Firefox, as do all my other banks (about 6 financial institutions total). I don't buy that for a second, if your bank doesn't work with a non IE browser, leave it. There's plenty that work just fine.

      I recently had a bit of fun with a couple of friends along this line, with them saying that FF wouldn't work as a replacement. I challenged them to come up with some sites that didn't work in FF. Their grand total of publicly available sites? 1. And it is created with the latest Visual Studio and the only thing wrong with it is the Flash/DHTML overlay that doesn't show up properly on the main page in FF. This has been stated as bad design in BugTraq.

      They also mentioned their internal web sites, which are not publicly accessible, like my own. Our internal website's code works perfectly well with FF, except for the fact that if it's not IE 5.0, 5.5, or 6.0, they disable DHTML on the server side. If they'd remove that code, it would work perfectly well. This occurs because if it's not IE, it must be Netscape 4 or less.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    22. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I do the same. Additionally, I only run IE from a restricted account (with "runas").

    23. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by Azrael+Newtype · · Score: 1

      Actually, I'm working on an intranet site for a large pharmaceutical company that doesn't render in firefox, period. I'm far from the primary architect for the project, and I'm only a lowly summer intern, so I'm not about to go back and fix all of the errors (largely because I don't care much), but there you have it. ASP files are often the cause of these types of breakages, and it certainly is in this case (type mismatch: cint that isn't mentioned in IE) but I'm sure this isn't the only one. So, you can call bullshit if you like, but you're wrong. Improperly designed asp sites send out crap that doesn't even approximate standards, and firefox doesn't know how to ignore the crap and just render the IIS built garbage.

      --
      I'm always right and I can prove it, because to the best of my knowledge, I've never been wrong.
    24. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by stratjakt · · Score: 2, Informative

      Netscape still has the name recognition.

      If someone fights against Mozilla, just have this conversation:

      "I'm installing Firefox on your machine to use instead of IE"

      "NO! I need IE, I dont want to try some other software!"

      "Ummm, ok, how about Netscape?"

      "Sure!"

      Firefox isn't even to a 1.0 release. It's good, but it's not finished. It's not ready to be shoved down everybodies throats, there are still plenty of issues.

      --
      I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
    25. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by the_mad_poster · · Score: 1

      left side overlaps main text requiring a page refresh to correct -- this has been noted MANY times and not corrected

      I hear a lot of people complain about that, but I haven't seen it happen in a looong time.

      As far as the geocaching one... what OS? Linux browsers have a tendency to render the fonts much, much smaller than Windows. I'll check it when I get off and see what Firefox through Windows vs. Firefox through FreeBSD look like, but I'm betting that's an OS specific issue (I don't have a Linbox on the network right now, so it's BSD or nuthin').

      --
      Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
    26. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      It may also come as a surprise to you but Firefox isn't exactly the best browser out there if you want 100% compatibility with the "broken" sites on the Internet.
      Great, and I.E's compatibility with those "broken" sites just shows how big a freaking hack it truely is. If we want to truely progress towards something standardized on the internet we have to dump these hacks and start cleaning up our act... AND CODE.
    27. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by DarkSarin · · Score: 1

      To view flash? I don't have any trouble viewing flash with firefox (which is my primary browser).

      I recently had a friend tell me something similar, as well as how he had trouble getting firefox/mozilla to use java under linux. I laughed and said I hadn't had any trouble.

      If you can't get flash and java to work on your computer, then you are not doing something right. Granted, my gentoo box set everything up for me, but why NOT use firefox?

      --
      "We don't know what we are doing, but we are doing it very carefully,..." Wherry, R.J. Personnel Psychology (1995)
    28. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Windows. It should work without issue on Windows as we are talking about replacing a browser for people who don't have the faintest idea about their computers...

    29. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by rfunches · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately Firefox doesn't work when you type in Desktop, or My Documents, or Control Panel, etc. IE is so tied into Windows that it'll never fall out of first place in the browser wars.

    30. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by Devi0s · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Firefox is most of the answer. People programming websites to adhere to standards such that IE and Firefox can render them correctly and using cross-platform non-monopolistic technologies instead of things like ActiveX is another part of the answer.

      I have trained about ten broadband users to use firefox with limited javascript, cookie firewalling, zero disk cache, and zero java for everything, and if an important page (like online banking, or online billpay systems) doesn't work correctly, to look at that page ONLY in IE.

      The average person can adhere to the above with only a few hours of training, whereas trying to fully educate people about security implications requires a great deal more time, especially teaching those that consider computers to be an invasive and immature technology (read: the sane, not you, most of the world, etc.)

      I explain a bit of how cookie firewalling thwarts advertisers and how you really don't need to accept cookies from anything but *.yahoo.com to use the yahoo.com site.

      I explain that disk cache on a broadband connection will actually slow your browsing experience on a cluttered hard drive.

      I explain that java is almost never used for anything critical and that for those sites that use java that are important, just use IE.

      I explain that in Firefox, it is wise to disable all of the features of javascript that Firefox lets you disable, because malicious web designers abuse those features and ruin your browsing experience, but OTHER javascript features enable things like hotmail and gmail to work. Again, if you need more javascript for sites that are important, just use IE.

      If you are using a site that needs realplayer or quicktime, or flash, or shockwave, and you *really* need to go to that site, just use IE.

      When the users start to get a feel for firefox, and start using the google search bar and tabbed browsing and are able to surf without pop-up windows and automatic window resizing, etc., they can't thank me enough.

      Now, if only I could find a way to easily teach openoffice and non-outlook* adoption, I'd feel like superman... I'd certainly feel like the users are much safer than they were.

      --
      - Have you ever noticed that the more you learn about technology, the more stupid you sound trying to explain it?
    31. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by Qwaniton · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure what you're talking about. I have yet to find a website that won't work in Firefox.

    32. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by Brad1138 · · Score: 1

      I recently switched to Firefox from IE and find it much nicer. I rarely (if at all) have rendering issues.

      For those of you picking on Firefox, lets not forget it is still in Beta, currently version .92. Once version 1.0+ comes out then complain about its shortcomings.

      --
      If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people
    33. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by p4ul13 · · Score: 1

      I haven't seen that blank screen issue yet, but sometimes (often lately) when I click on a thread that hasn't gotten comments yet, I'll get the message "Nothing to see here". A couple reloads, and it lets me see the discussion.

      --
      Paul Lenhart writes words!
    34. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by gnu-generation-one · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Firefox is not an acceptable replacement for IE for 90% of the users out there so I really think we could have done without the snide comment."

      Huh?

      Microsoft Internet Explorer isn't an acceptable browser for 90% of the users out there.

      Nevermind your "snide" assertions about the websites that don't work, people are getting owned here. It's a serious problem. It's the spam problem and the virus problem and all the tech support problems, all stemming from this one application that's so insecure that everyone, from DHS to MSN themselves recommend getting rid of it immediately.

      If your favorite website doesn't work in a generic web-browser, get them to fix it, or get a new supplier. Even the banks have got HTML websites now.

    35. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by Bachus9000 · · Score: 1

      Your geocaching example seems to render fine for me in FF 0.9.2 on Windows, and I've only encountered the /. problem when using FF in Linux (and I hear that 0.9 fixes that problem, but since I currently don't have a working linux install I can't check for myself).

    36. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And could someone explain to me again why I want to be compatible with something that is broken ?

      I keep seeing mention of Slashdot not rendering in Firefox correctly.. I guess I'm part of the minority or just really lucky, because I use FireFox almost exclusively and haven't seen this..

      all 3 of my financial institutions web sites work fine with FireFox. if they didn't I would change to financial institutions that was following the standards. I mean if they don't care about something as minor as HTML standards, who the heck knows what they are doing on the financial side of things... It's my money they are playing with after all..

    37. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by It'sYerMam · · Score: 1
      Well, so far I've had almost no luck with the java plugin on firefox 0.9, Linux.
      Whenever I view an applet in 0.9 with the plugin enabled the browser crashes out, complaining about "unexpected work request for plugin" etc.

      These messages are actually from the plugin, rather than the browser, and yes, I did symlink, not copy.

      That said, 0.8 works fine, and I use firefox permanently. I tried Opera today... and that was it. It seems to be all fancy graphics, but nothing else.

      --
      im in ur .sig, writin ur memes.
    38. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by FuzzyBad-Mofo · · Score: 1

      left side overlaps main text requiring a page refresh to correct

      I never used to experience this problem in the past, but Slashdot in general has become quite flaky recently, often not loading completely. My theory is that the alignment problems in Moz/FF are related to this, and the problem is not apparent in IE because it's much more tolerant of invalid code.

      fonts do not render correctly

      Fonts & Colors -> Minimum font size = 10
      Don't leave home without it. :)

    39. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by garcia · · Score: 1

      The Slashdot issue happens for me on all platforms. The Geocaching.com issue is irrelevant for you if you don't have an account and access to the /my page.

      The rendering changes page to page. Font sizes are different on all different pages forcing me to change font size to read comfortably. The pages never do look as good as they did in IE.

    40. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      btw, regarding all these /. [Firefox] problems, for some reason I get this render problem intermittently, but a simple reload typically handles the problem.

      I could say the same thing for Firefox, except that for me "a simple reload in IE typically handles the problem."

      Which is what the grandparent is trying to point out - [broken/whatever] sites that don't work or work well in FireFox (and I have a lot of them) aren't always fixed with a reload, a lot o ftimes you have no choice but to use IE.

    41. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As an aside, you do know the ctrl++ and ctrl+- keys modify the font size? That would make your browsing experience easier if you're using the mouse currently.

    42. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by westlake · · Score: 1
      I don't honestly know what 90% of the users you are referring to, but I've been slowly replacing Is on my friend's, family, and now my employees machines.

      You should know that the odds are against you. The OEMs are shipping about ten million XP systems a month, with IE as the default browser. Back-to-school promotions will ramp those numbers up even faster.

    43. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by PReDiToR · · Score: 1

      http://dabs.com

      Go look at a listing that scrolls off the bottom of the screen and use the scrollb ... What do you mean it stops scrolling before the bottom of the page? You can't see the footer or the link to the next page?

      This site is the one that made me install IE View extension. Flash works fine, specially with the Click-To-View, and I don't have Java on my box so I rarely need to use IE.

      --

      Do not meddle in the affairs of geeks for they are subtle and quick to anger
    44. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by riscthis · · Score: 1
      Everyone seems to put all this faith into SP2...but let's face it: a significant portion of the population doesn't install patches to begin with. What makes anyone think they're going to sit through a download 10x bigger...and that's assuming they even know about it
      But at least it will be pre-installed on new machines as default by the OEMs.
    45. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I explain a bit of how cookie firewalling thwarts advertisers and how you really don't need to accept cookies from anything but *.yahoo.com to use the yahoo.com site.

      You evil bastard.

      That's a pretty stupid thing to teach users.

      Now they have to spend a lot more time, typing username, password. Username, password. Username, password. And quite a bit of stuff will break. But hey, at least you 'beat the evil advertisers' that fund their websites, eh? Feel proud.

    46. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by garcia · · Score: 1

      What would make my browsing experience better would be if Firefox rendered the pages correctly the first time so that I wouldn't have to change the font sizes everytime I go to a different page.

    47. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by the_mad_poster · · Score: 1

      Instead of whining that Firefox doesn't fix other people's problems, why don't you whine to the people who make the pages wrong in the first place?

      Besides, after banging around the geocaching site, I'm not seeing the problem. Some of the text is small, but looking at the source, it's supposed to be. What do you want Firefox to do, become psychic and render pages in the way you want them to, or render them the way GeoCaching says it should?

      You know, some people - Linux zealots come to mind - bitch and moan about users who hold them responsible for implementing things that make their life easier. However, this is ridiculous. You're decrying the use of Firefox in the mainstream because a bunch of crappy, second-rate websites were designed by lobotomized toads? Maybe if Geocaching had bothered to design the site properly in the first place, then it wouldn't look like crap. Why hold Firefox responsible for sites that look like crap and break everything? If you want broken - use IE. If you want a competent web browser that renders all sites properly - hold moronic web developers responsible for crappy sites and demand they fix them. Hard? I don't think so... it worked fine for me when my bank put in a browser sniffer. If it's run by morons who don't want to listen to their userbase - Slashdot, for example - then don't continue to use it, or deal with the fact that it's run by morons.

      --
      Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
    48. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pop-up won't show, and all the non-correctly defined elements won't show right neither.

      Do you have experience with this problem first-hand? If so, please explain to the rest of us which Pop-ups or elements won't display correctly?

      I have yet to see any of the problems you describe with SP2 RC1 or RC2.

    49. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by mbourgon · · Score: 1

      Depends. I've put Bazooka and Search & Destroy on several peoples machines after they complain how slow their machine is, all the popups for no reason, etc, etc. They don't know it's spyware, but the descriptions are pretty easy to diagnose.

      And of course my coworkers, who for some reason all use IE. They're probably the worst about it, or maybe I just expect more from IT pros. MS blinders? (Sorry, guys)

      --
      "Sometimes a woman is a kind of religion, she can save your soul & set you free from all your sins" - Bad Examples
    50. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by TheWizardOfCheese · · Score: 1
      I am throwing Karma out the window on this one as my comments on this subject fall on deaf ears here

      Actually, your karma is doing just fine ... as was to be expected. Although MicroSoft apologists invariably portray themselves as isolated voices of reason, victims of simple-minded Slashdot bigotry, a count of pro and con comments shows that there is no lack of support for MicroSoft on Slashdot.

      It may come as a surprise to you but more than 90% of the Internet users out there aren't aware or concerned with IE vulnerabilities

      It may come as surprise to you, but that won't actually surprise anyone. It is exacty the problem.

      Firefox is not the answer to MS' issues. Better preparation for security is.

      Quite. And better preparation involves two easy steps:

      fix broken websites

      migrate users to Firefox (or other working browser)

      --

      "The good reader is a rarer swan than the good writer."
    51. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by RedWizzard · · Score: 1
      my comments on this subject fall on deaf ears here
      That's because you're wrong.
      Yesterday I mentioned that nearly everyone who visits my site with Firefox are coming in from Slashdot URLs.
      So what? Are you saying that since Firefox has low market share it's not an acceptable replacement for IE? That's ridiculous.
      It may also come as a surprise to you but Firefox isn't exactly the best browser out there if you want 100% compatibility with the "broken" sites on the Internet. These same users that don't know of the issues w/IE are more concerned that they cannot reach their online banking, see their sites the way that the "broken" authors intended, and have a seamless browsing experience.
      I bank with two different banks and they both work fine with Firefox. My non-geek wife uses Firefox and has had no complaints about it. It is an acceptable replacement for IE in most cases. The only sites I have problems with are small online retailers running bad Javascript, and the occasional layout disaster (again small personal sites - I've never had the legendary Slashdot layout problems). When I do I fire up IE I find it's painful to use. It pisses me off every time I touch it.
    52. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by mingot · · Score: 1

      ASP files are often the cause of these types of breakages

      ASP pages render the HTML that they are programmed to render. Nothing more or less, really. Put blame where blame is due. (ASP *IS* total shit, but it not at fault here)

      ASP files are often the cause of these types of breakages, and it certainly is in this case (type mismatch: cint that isn't mentioned in IE) but I'm sure this isn't the only one.

      Um, that's called JavaScript. ASP only spits out the JavaScript that it is programmed to output. Just like the HTML. IE/Netscape implementations of JavaScript differ. If you want to place blame here split it up between your brain dead co-workers and the IE JavaScript parser. Not ASP. (ASP is *REALLY* crap, though)

      So, you can call bullshit if you like, but you're wrong.

      I was thinking of hiring interns for some slave labor next summer. I really need to rethink that.

      Improperly designed asp sites send out crap that doesn't even approximate standards

      Um, so will pretty much everything else out there when you design the thing improperly. Blame to improper design.

      firefox doesn't know how to ignore the crap and just render the IIS built garbage.

      IIS doesn't build anything. It simply runs an ISAPI filter for known extensions (like .asp) and then passes the text of the page to the ASP interpreter which just programmatically outputs whatever crap the programmers programmed it to output and IIS serves this up to the client.

      Good thing you are in school and getting OJT, as you really have a lot to learn. Here is the first lesson for you: "Garbage in, Garbage out".

    53. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by veritron · · Score: 1

      I can't name a single worthwhile site that's IE only other than windows update. Most sites that fail do so because Firefox is honestly reporting that it is, in fact, Mozilla Firefox - set it to tell the site that it's IE and there's no problem.

    54. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by Devi0s · · Score: 1

      Flamebait. -1.

      Whether or not I am an evil bastard is of little concern to me, but clarifying my post for simpletons and cowards like yourself is certainly in order. Here comes the Semame Street version:

      If you accept cookies from login.yahoo.com, you do NOT have to remember a username/password pair for yahoo.com.

      Whether or not you accept cookies from doubleclick .net on the yahoo.com site does not affect your ability to read your email, nor does it cause you to have to have to remember another username/password pair.

      I am sure we can go through a list of your favorite example sites and we can provide a tutorial on which cookies you need to accept to NOT have to remember a username/password pair and show that easily identifiable site affiliations exist to help guide your decisions, but I assumed that you were smart enough that this was not necessary. I truly apologize for my gross oversight and your gross ignorance.

      --
      - Have you ever noticed that the more you learn about technology, the more stupid you sound trying to explain it?
    55. Re:Firefox is not the answer. by curtlewis · · Score: 1

      FireFox is just mozilla without the mail and news stuff. Lots of non-slashdotters know about it.

      It's a nice, fast, very standards compliant browser. Any web site that it doesn't work with it not conforming to standards spec. It's probably been coded by some web hacker on a 21" monitor with 1600x1200 resolution using IE6 and only tested in that configuration.

      I know MS is the marketshare king and all but the web was designed to be platform agnostic. Using CCS elements and html tags that ONLY IE supports is just plain dumb.

      Did you know that the web was invented on a NeXT box in Switzerland? Not on a PC in Redmond. And this was years before NeXt bought Apple. Or Apple bought NeXT depending on your point of view.

      In any case, the solution to the problem is to ditch IE until it plays nice with others. Until it doesn't have gaping holes. If users switch in droves off of IE, websites will have to be written in a compatible manner. And this will be good for everyone.

  12. Does this mean Microsoft is going... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    ...with the Rhythm method?

  13. Missing a key word in the description by twenex · · Score: 1

    Note that this does not mean that they are replacing IE with FireFox......... YET

    1. Re:Missing a key word in the description by tehcyder · · Score: 1
      but maybe...IN JAPAN?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  14. eh by jford235 · · Score: 1

    They are getting totally slammed with IE scew ups in the past few weeks. theres at least one big thing each week. But I guess when you hold the market share and people still design their sites for your browser over everyone elses and so on, you can pretty much do what you want.

  15. Long-term solution? by RonnyJ · · Score: 5, Insightful
    They claim that the forthcoming patch will be a "long-term solution to the core vulnerability" exploited by Scob."

    So, are their patches normally NOT long-term solutions to vulnerabilities then?

    1. Re:Long-term solution? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course not. The best business practice is selling the same thing over and over again. They've just gotten into that habit, and so it spread into their patches. A patch that isn't broken can't be patched by itself.

    2. Re:Long-term solution? by kurt.griffiths · · Score: 1

      Of course they would rather have long term solutions, but they release short-term solutions first because they are easier and help buy MSFT time until they can come up with something better.

    3. Re:Long-term solution? by hillg3 · · Score: 1

      This is the long-term solution compared to their previous solution: disabling javascript.

  16. Is there something wrong with me? by Klar · · Score: 3, Interesting

    shhh, don't tell anyone, but I'm still using IE6.. I dunno, I'm just so used to using it, and it seems to work well for me. I haven't had any virus or security problems(that I know of).. I always want to try firefox after reading posts about its power, but man.. IE is just so..so.. easy.

    1. Re:Is there something wrong with me? by dotslasher_sri · · Score: 1

      and..umm...whats difficult about firefox. Try it out man..you will fall in love with it. :-)

    2. Re:Is there something wrong with me? by Tairnyn · · Score: 1

      I rarely can tell the difference. In fact, it really only grabs my attention when using nice features that are included by default, such as the search field and tabbed windows. The time I save on inspecting every site address before I go to it more than makes up for the small learning curve for settings and such.

      --
      "Don't waste your time or time will waste you" -MUSE
    3. Re:Is there something wrong with me? by Mz6 · · Score: 1
      please be joking, please be joking, please be joking... joke?

      If you have always wanted to try it, try it already!

      --
      Hmmm.
    4. Re:Is there something wrong with me? by smooth+wombat · · Score: 1
      I always want to try firefox after reading posts about its power, but man.. IE is just so..so.. easy.

      And slow and breaks compatibility at will and bloated.

      I switched to Firebird both at home and work at nearly the same time and was astounded by the speed of rendering web pages. Even on my dial-up at home. Then I discovered tab browsing and no pop-ups! Gah! What more could I ask for?

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    5. Re:Is there something wrong with me? by GigsVT · · Score: 5, Informative

      My wife was infected by spyware by simply visiting a site that was an etrade affilliate site (they were offering a free PDA if you opened an etrade account).

      She told me at the time the only difference between her computer and her friend that sent it to her was that she had Sun Java installed and he didn't. He didn't get infected and she did.

      This was several months ago, she searched and didn't find any exploit info about it.

      A couple days ago she found the exact exploit she had encountered on a vulnerability list, a combination of Sun Java and an IE bug cause a certain vulnerability.

      So you might think you are safe, but how many "zero day" or unknown exploits, such as the one my wife got infected by spyware via are out there?

      --
      I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
    6. Re:Is there something wrong with me? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      ever saw slashdot's user agents stats? around 78% of all visitors use MSIE. and that's not cause of the faked user agent string because slashdot doesn't use fucked up stat generator software.

    7. Re:Is there something wrong with me? by mindaktiviti · · Score: 1

      Firefox has a learning curve? What version did they implement this in?

    8. Re:Is there something wrong with me? by Klar · · Score: 1

      And firefox is immune to this? I understand that less people use it, so less base to create virus's, but still..

      I think I may try firefox tonite when I get home from work anyways, to see how it compares. If I like it, maybe I'll stay.

    9. Re:Is there something wrong with me? by 3gm · · Score: 1
      No, there's nothing wrong with you. I bit the bullet and downloaded Firefox some weeks ago. I can't say it has been a positive experience:

      1. Speed - seems to be slower than IE to me; maybe my expectations were just too high.

      2. Lost my Google toolbar and had to download and install the (not-fully-functional) add-in.

      3. Several sites don't work properly, e.g. FedEx Ship Manager and Fidelity Full View. I did find one site that worked with FireFox and NOT with IE though!

      4. Had to install other add-ins for Flash etc.

      I'm still using Firefox in hopes that I will come to appreciate tabbed browsing etc, but it's slow going.

    10. Re:Is there something wrong with me? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Just so..so.. easy." ? What is that supposed to mean?

      It's a WEB BROWSER. You type a URL and it shows you a web page. How hard can that be to use?

      Guess what, any other browser WORKS THE SAME WAY!

      There is no difference in "ease of use" between any of the major browsers out there.

      I can pretty much guarantee you have spyware/virus/security problems that you don't "know of" simply because after the "IE is easy" BS I can't put much faith in the "that I know of" line.

    11. Re:Is there something wrong with me? by Klar · · Score: 1

      by 'so easy' I mean that I don't have to bother downloading anything, or worry about plugins for things that are already supported.

    12. Re:Is there something wrong with me? by TykeClone · · Score: 1

      Why would you install the flash add-in. Most of the time the flash content is just annoying stuff that gets in the way of where you're looking to go.

      --
      A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
    13. Re:Is there something wrong with me? by tshak · · Score: 2, Informative

      Spyware has more to do with social engineering by visiting questionable than anything else. Most people click "OK" past the IE security warnings when spyware is trying to install itself. Microsoft is doing it's part to try and mitigate this problem in XP SP2 by making warning dialogs more clear and urgent, and in some cases even adding a timer before the user can actually click OK (Outlook 2003 currently does this if any outside program tries to send email through it. It's annoying but it's better than the alternative).

      --

      There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
    14. Re:Is there something wrong with me? by Ari_Haviv · · Score: 1

      but you will download a 150 meg update for IE6, right?

      --
      Join Team Mozilla #38050 Folding@home
    15. Re:Is there something wrong with me? by Bachus9000 · · Score: 1

      1. I think speed is rather subjective. I've found Firefox to be more or less equal to IE in rendering speeds, but a friend of mine swears it is much slower than IE. 2. Just out of curiosity, what does the Google toolbar do that Firefox doesn't out of the box. FF blocks pop ups and you've already got the google search right next to the address bar. This is probably ignorance on my part, but there just doesn't seem to be anything else useful in the toolbar. 3. My experience with the FedEx site is limited (mainly just order tracking), but it has always worked fine for me. Don't you just love anecdotal evidence? :) 4. You had to do the same thing for IE, you know. Granted, IE's plugin installation is a tiny bit easier (and that little bit can make all the difference in the average Joe's eyes), but overall there is very little difference between the two browsers.

    16. Re:Is there something wrong with me? by Laurion · · Score: 1

      I don't know if there's anything _wrong_ with you, but considering how _easy_ it is to install IE and to use it.... well, you'll find it a real joy to work with.

      --
      "Is this not a rare fellow, my lord? He's as good at any thing, and yet a fool." -from "As You Like It", Act 5,
    17. Re:Is there something wrong with me? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yes. it is immune to that.
      not because fewer people use it, but because it's well written.

    18. Re:Is there something wrong with me? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Was your wife running 2000 / XP? If so, was she running as an "administrator"?

      Most spyware (currently) wants to write it's .EXEs into the "windows" or "windows system" folder. Running as a very low level account (one in the users group) makes these folders "read-only" so IE can't write .EXEs to these folders.

    19. Re:Is there something wrong with me? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes

    20. Re:Is there something wrong with me? by 3gm · · Score: 1

      Probably because I needed it to watch the jibjab video :-)

    21. Re:Is there something wrong with me? by 3gm · · Score: 1
      I use a bunch of stuff on the Google toolbar including (1) move up a page (2) next/previous results page (3) google news (4) next occurence of search term (5) dictionary search and (6) autofill.

      I agree about the plugins - IE is just a bit more seamless.

    22. Re:Is there something wrong with me? by TykeClone · · Score: 1

      As long as there was a reason...

      --
      A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
    23. Re:Is there something wrong with me? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My wife was infected by spyware by simply visiting a site that was an etrade affilliate site (they were offering a free PDA if you opened an etrade account).

      Is that what they're calling it these days? Tell your wife not to screw around.

    24. Re:Is there something wrong with me? by GigsVT · · Score: 1

      My wife is a senior computer tech, she deals with cleaning up spyware all day. I don't think she would click "OK" on a security warning.

      --
      I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
    25. Re:Is there something wrong with me? by GigsVT · · Score: 1

      I'm a hard core linux user and I think Firefox is slower than IE.

      I don't know how much of it is the bloat combined with the kernel's obsession with paging things out that you haven't used in the last 10 seconds or so.

      That said, Firefox is "fast enough". It's faster than the old Bloatzilla used to be.

      I used to use Opera, but recent versions of Opera for linux are really not very fast anymore, and a couple years ago, Opera just started crashing randomly, a LOT. I stuck with it for a couple more versions, but since it never got stable, I got sick of waiting for them to release a version that didn't go poof twice a day.

      IE, being tied much closer to the core of the OS in Windows, should damn well be faster, it's a huge tradeoff you are making for that speed, in terms of security and proper separations between OS and applications.

      --
      I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
    26. Re:Is there something wrong with me? by tshak · · Score: 1

      Well, I've never installed spyware on my machine. I've been using IE exclusively since version 4. I have run Adaware on my machine as a precaution. All it's found are relatively harmless cookies. If your wife is a senior computer tech, she should know that if she's going to go to potentially questionable sites that she should at least set IE's security settings to High in order to completely disable ActiveX.

      --

      There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
    27. Re:Is there something wrong with me? by GigsVT · · Score: 1

      Because changing your global settings before visiting a site is obviously a rational thing to do, rather than running a secure browser to start with.

      --
      I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
  17. Remove need for patching...by removing IE. by The+Fifth+Man · · Score: 5, Informative
    1. Re:Remove need for patching...by removing IE. by aklix · · Score: 1

      i would just rather leave IE there, like i did. It doesnt harm anything and it is still good for web designing. all though im trying to get the stupid transparency out of my website so its compatable with firefox. I dont know y i used a template in the first place i was probably being lazy.

    2. Re:Remove need for patching...by removing IE. by Apathetic1 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Removing IE will not remove the vulnerability. The vulnerability is in the MS-HTML control not in the Internet Explorer executable. Any application that uses the MS-HTML control is vulnerable.

      --

      My username does not make me Apathetic. It's irony, get it?

    3. Re:Remove need for patching...by removing IE. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know if that's such a good idea, you still have the problem of fixing security holes in regular Windows, and you can't access Windows update without IE.

      Sure, there are quite a few problems in Windows that are the direct result of using the internet browser as the filesystem browser, but what about stuff like Blaster that uses RPC holes?

    4. Re:Remove need for patching...by removing IE. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wow that really cool, but i thought they won some court case claiming that it couldn't be done. Or have I misinterpreted something? /oh yes i hate this yellowish thing too, i came to this site to bask in soothing green light!

    5. Re:Remove need for patching...by removing IE. by foistboinder · · Score: 1
      The vulnerability is in the MS-HTML control not in the Internet Explorer executable. Any application that uses the MS-HTML control is vulnerable.

      The answer is obvious, remove Windows. Then there sould be no possibility of accidently using an app that relies on the MS-HTML control (unless you run some kind of emulation).

    6. Re:Remove need for patching...by removing IE. by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      ...it just comes with the catch of removing functionality of ie dependant programs like windowsupdate & etc.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    7. Re:Remove need for patching...by removing IE. by alph0ns3 · · Score: 1

      ... except that the IE remover the parent poster linked to DOES remove mshtml.dll... (and appwiz.cpl and the help system stops working)

      but unfortunately msxml.dll is still required, since the mmc console requires it :(

    8. Re:Remove need for patching...by removing IE. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Windows Update isn't required to update Windows...

    9. Re:Remove need for patching...by removing IE. by Bachus9000 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      With Nlite you can even remove the IE rendering engine. Of course, some things in Windows won't work afterward, but that shouldn't be surprising considering how hard MS has worked to make IE impossible to remove. Take note that Nlite is still very much beta software and has plenty of bugs that need to be worked out, but all-in-all it is a very nice program. Currently it requires the .net framework 1.1, but the author is currently working on a C++ version. I suggest anyone who uses Windows 2000/XP/2003 check it out.

    10. Re:Remove need for patching...by removing IE. by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      * Windows Update isn't required to update Windows...*

      no but unless you plan on making it a full day job you better use it.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    11. Re:Remove need for patching...by removing IE. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lies... it's not that hard to grab patch X when security advisory Y is sent out on the MS-security mailing list.

      And that's not counting the patches that Microsoft helpfully mail directly to you!

  18. My organization just dumped IE for Firefox by gearmonger · · Score: 5, Interesting
    "long-term solution" hee hee ha ha *snort* [coke comes out nose] riiiight.

    Rightly or not, that Homeland Defense notice got some peeps in senior management a little spooked and asked our IT department to start making Firefox the default browser on all new systems they set up for employees.

    As a long-time Mozilla and Firefox user, I couldn't be happier. Whether it's the right reason or not, I couldn't care -- at least there's a hint at the IE domination trend slowing down a bit, and that is good for consumers.

    1. Re:My organization just dumped IE for Firefox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [coke comes out nose]

      you've been sniffing?

    2. Re:My organization just dumped IE for Firefox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      t least there's a hint at the IE domination trend slowing down a bit, and that is good for consumers.

      Me'spects that if we were talking about a FireFox/Mozilla "domination trend slowing down a bit", the poster wouldn't cite that as good for consumers.

      Gooses and ganders, they both taste good.

    3. Re:My organization just dumped IE for Firefox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My organization just dumped IE for Firefox

      Mozilla Foundation Looking for Names of Organizations That Have Switched to Mozilla

      Not sure how you're supposed to tell them about it, though.

  19. IE vs Mozzy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Microsoft may have won the browser-war in the late 1990's but at what cost???

    Mozilla/Netscape as of the last couple of years made fantastic progress and is definately now the better browser in both functionality, security and last but not least mozilla looks better to me and renders websites better too...

    M$FT should just throw in the towel on IE and reduce its function to Windows Update and able to download Mozilla/Netscape, (just make it a ftp downloader tool)

    1. Re:IE vs Mozzy by Ignignot · · Score: 1

      M$FT should just throw in the towel on IE and reduce its function to Windows Update and able to download Mozilla/Netscape, (just make it a ftp downloader tool)

      After reading this comment, Bill Gates was quoted as saying "yeah, and monkeys will fly out of my butt!"

      --
      I submitted this story last night, and it didn't get posted.
  20. FUD or CRUD ? by bushboy · · Score: 0, Troll

    Crap Reads Upside Down ?
    Create Rendered User Devils ?
    Complete Readable User Documentation ?
    Could Run Under DOS ?

    --
    A slashdotting - you get the stick first and then the carrot !
  21. IT: Microsoft to Issue Out-of-Cycle Patch for IE by webhuis · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Note that this does not mean that they are replacing IE with FireFox. M$ are to release an anti-virus that has two components. 1. An anti-virus 2. A blocking list of suspicious clients that offered malware. They will be forced to replace IE by Firefox. Regards, Martin.

  22. It seems that ... by Hatfieldje · · Score: 3, Insightful

    One of the biggest complaints against MS is that they are slow to respond to user need, while quick to add profit-margin-stretching-even-though-the-user-does n't-want/need-anyway "features" (e.g. Clippy). So how is the /. community going to react when MS actually starts listening to the customer and adding true features like security, speed, efficiency?

    I've noticed over the past couple of months that there have been a few of opinions coming out. One is that it's too late for MS. They screwed the pooch years ago and their entire user base will end up jumping ship.

    Another is that this is nothing but a marketing ploy. MS isn't really changing their ideology, they're just making us think they are, so we're better off jumping ship.

    The other (my personal opinion) is that it's a welcome change. I will be glad when Windows becomes an environment that is as stable and easily configurable as linux. I love competition. It's what makes America thrive, and if MS can become competitive (again) in the eyes of /. geeks, just think about how much more time/effort will go into linux to make it even better. And, as for jumping ship, we'll have no need. But we may have a fleet comprised of MS, *nix/*BSD, etc.

    Kudos to MS for trying to fix their old mistakes, and hopefully in a couple of years, they'll have them fixed and we can really have an OS War!

    --
    for maximum effect, the preceding post should be read monotone and at a steady cadence
    1. Re:It seems that ... by Tumbleweed · · Score: 1

      As far as IE is concerned, they can make it super-fast and super-efficient and super-secure, but it's STILL horribly broken as far as standards support goes, and therefore quite deserving of scorn. Scorn, scorn, scorn! A pox on the house of IE, I say, until they commit publicly and fully to web standards (which they haven't done to this day, even the 'new' IE team).

    2. Re:It seems that ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Careful the other lemings don't stampede over you on the way off the cliff.

    3. Re:It seems that ... by pandrijeczko · · Score: 1
      So how is the /. community going to react when MS actually starts listening to the customer and adding true features like security, speed, efficiency?

      I'm sure that a lot of the community will look upon MS a little more favourably if and when that happens.

      However, the design of Windows is, in itself, flawed in terms of features like the registry (which ultimately limits speed & efficiency by virtue of its fragmentation and growth) and by the deep integration of apps and APIs that allow gateways deep into the operating system. There is therefore only so much that can be fixed in Windows - I suspect MS already know this which is why Longhorn will, I assume, be a big change architecturally from Windows.

      On the other hand, it is not just security & efficiency that deters a large proportion of the Slashdot community from liking/supporting Microsoft. What is of more major concern, myself included, is the fact that MS want to take complete control of the PC platform from an OS perspective to the point where they, through DRM, will control what all of us can and cannot do with our PCs.

      DRM is touted as a security technology but, beneath the hype, is simply a way of imposing a rental model on each and every user - Microsoft wants to be seen as a "utility company", renting software to their users because that means guaranteed income. That is the ultimate Microsoft goal.

      Unfortunately, as a 21st century society, the majority of us are turning into mindless sheep who are more than happy to hand over our responsibilities to governments and corporations rather than accept those responsibilities ourselves - that includes the data on our PCs.

      No, I'm not saying that all Microsoft users are mindless sheep because, if they were, MS would have no need to conceal their desires for control beneath clever marketing and I hope that as MS's plot gradually gets more uncovered, Windows users will make valued decisions as to whether or not to allow MS that level of control over what they do.

      Myself, I've used DOS and Windows out of convenience but not because I particularly like either. Fortunately, I got exposed to UNIX quite early on in my career and moved into Linux quite naturally as a result. Now I use Linux about 70% of my time and I have vowed that Windows 2000 will be the last MS operating system I ever use unless there is a distinct policy change by Microsoft to adopt open file formats and protocols.

      I can honestly say that the harder MS make it, the more I will fight to maintain my personal freedoms in computing - even to the point where if there was no choice other than Microsoft, I would trash my PCs and go live on an isolated island somewhere and back to pen and paper.

      --
      Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
    4. Re:It seems that ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Myself, I've used DOS and Windows out of convenience but not because I particularly like either. Fortunately, I got exposed to UNIX quite early on in my career and moved into Linux quite naturally as a result.

      I used DOS, Windows 3.1 and Windows 95 and it worked OK, but I knew Linux was better in many respects at the time. So I switched over to Slackware as well as FreeBSD. But I have since moved back when Windows 2000 came out (currently run XP Professional and 2003 Server). Why you ask? Because Linux has jack shit for gaming and application support. One might say that if you are looking for games then Linux isn't for you, but lets not fool ourselves - games help drive the personal computer industry.

      What good is an OS when there is nothing to run on it?

    5. Re:It seems that ... by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

      We're all gonna quit the computer gig and take up shovelling snow in Hell.

      --
      Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    6. Re:It seems that ... by GSloop · · Score: 1

      IMHO, it's nice they claim to be doing a lot, but the results on the ground indicate otherwise.

      Trojans and spyware are a daily problem for me.

      For smaller companies I either patch machines by hand (automated script that must be run at each machine) or cough up the cash for a server (PDC only) to run SUS.

      Why should SUS require a PDC? I should be able to dedicate any PC with 2000 or XP to handling patch updates.

      SUS is a small offer, but it's like Ford saying..."well, sure that Pinto explodes in a rear end collision. But for only $895.00 per passenger we'll sell you this hot clammy fire suit that will protect you. Uh, no, you can't buy it elsewhere."

      MS isn't making any real progress staunching the massive flow of exploits. Frankly, I see the numbers going up, not down.

      Could someone tell me what MS did during those full code review lockdowns? Did everyone play minesweeper and solitare the whole time? For all good they did, it sure seems that way.

      Cheers,
      Greg

  23. At least... by kurt.griffiths · · Score: 0, Troll

    At least they are trying hard to suck less.

    1. Re:At least... by gnuLNX · · Score: 1

      So what. They have sucked so hard for so long that I fear the stench of their suckage will lingere for generations to come!

      --
      what?
    2. Re:At least... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they want to suck less, they should make vacuums.

  24. Ah... Firefox. by 9-bits.tk · · Score: 1
    Note that this does not mean that they are replacing IE with FireFox

    Damn.

  25. After trying Firefox... by mindaktiviti · · Score: 1

    Try Firefox and you'll realize that it's even easier than IE, even though IE is "so so easy".

  26. not just firefox and mozilla by poptones · · Score: 1
    As I sat at the library doing my browsing on my laptop (500mhz 600x with mdk10), I discovered yesterday that this ALSO happens in konq (not normally a kde user but I've been playing lately). I didn't see it on the main page but the "reply submitted" page is completely fucked up and the mozilla back/forward trick don't fix it.

    How ironic is it the website most commonly linked to "the linux community" REFUSES to create a site that consistently renders properly in anything except MSIE?

  27. What to tell your online bank by Animats · · Score: 1
    Bank of America's site, including online banking, statement printing, and bill paying, works just fine with Mozilla/Firefox.

    Bank of America has one of the best online bill payment systems around. No fees. They'll transfer money to major companies with which they have an arrangement, and mail checks to anyone else you select.

    Bank of America is the biggest bank in the United States.

    Point this out to any bank that wants you to use IE.

    1. Re:What to tell your online bank by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wells Fargo and Washington Mutual work fine in Mozilla/Firefox as well.

    2. Re:What to tell your online bank by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Everything you've said goes for NetBank as well. I've used them since they first started (~8 years ago or so?). For what an AC's recommendation is worth... I can recommend them.

  28. Fired by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    anybody who writes i.e only sites should be fired on the spot.

    they have no business in the IT industry. I don't care if ie was the defacto standard - you write to industry standard - especially web pages.

    firefox is great!! it is fast and renders pages the way they are suppose to - it is ie and the web sites that are broken and need to get fixed.

    1. Re:Fired by NickRuisi · · Score: 1

      I hate IE, but let me draw an analogy here. I write web applications. Just as the author of some console program used over telnet is not scoffed at by saying the application requires specific features in a client, web app developers are not out of line asking for a uniform client for thier applications. For chrissakes, it halves the QA time and the developers spend less time dealing with UI rendering considerations and more time coding application code.

    2. Re:Fired by 9-bits.tk · · Score: 1

      *cough* http://www.odeon.co.uk/ *cough*

  29. ::sigh:: If only it was possible.... by enilnomi · · Score: 1

    ...to fashion an exploit using CSS

    --
    education is no substitute for intelligence
    1. Re:::sigh:: If only it was possible.... by rmdir+-r+* · · Score: 1
      Well, it used to be that this would crash IE:
      <html>
      <form>
      <input type crash>
      </form>
      </html>
      but, to my great amusement, I believe they've patched that. On the other hand, this still works:
      <STYLE>@;/*
      So, there is sort-of an exploit with CSS... ;).
    2. Re:::sigh:: If only it was possible.... by Ari_Haviv · · Score: 1

      Great. An exploit that would work in every browser except IE

      --
      Join Team Mozilla #38050 Folding@home
  30. page completition by zogger · · Score: 1

    I was getting just a ton of bad rendering(overlapping tables/bars whatever) and non page completetion problems on slashdot(page would only partly load, leaving huge blank areas), so I switched to the low resolution format, now it's fine. Took me around 15 minutes to get used to it, but now it looks normal to me and has the same functionality and loads much faster with no errors.

  31. Do people care? by taylortbb · · Score: 5, Informative

    Do people care about IE security problems? Most do actually, people just either don't know about the vulnerabilities or if they do they don't know there's anything that can be done.

    Everyone I know when I talk to them about how bad IE is, if they listen, switches to Mozilla, I switched my school's computers and those of atleast 60 others.

    People are listening now more than ever, its becoming so bad (atleast one a week) the mainstream media is even going "Another Internet Explorer vulverability has been found".

    All I tell people is that:
    1. Mozilla works faster
    2. It has a pop-up blocker
    3. It is immune to those once a week IE vulnerabilities
    4. You just about don't get spyware (and mention keyloggers). <---The Killer One And BTW, I use Firefox 0.9.2 (mozilla.org build for Linux/x86) and have never had problems with how /. renders.

    1. Re:Do people care? by pandrijeczko · · Score: 2, Informative
      since foxfire accepts cookies, you DO have spyware installed on your machine.

      Don't be a jerk and go read a book on the subject.

      Cookies are essentially passive data files that can be pulled by a web server to track what sites you've been to, who you are, etc - they need an interaction between a web browser and a web server to do anything.

      Spyware refers to an independent program that gets downloaded through a scripting hole or an email that runs as a task in Windows and "phones home" all manner of information about you to somebody somewhere. Deinstall IE and a spyware program will still be there running away merrily to itself.

      If you're stupid enough to manually run an untrusted program you've downloaded in Mozilla then that's the only way it will dump spyware onto your PC.

      --
      Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
    2. Re:Do people care? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Here's what I do;

      1. Install Firefox.
      2. Ask the person what web sites they visit often.
      3. Put the sites in a set of bookmarks and use that set as the 'home page'.
      4. Show them.
      5. Ask if they want to use Firefox by default.

      So far, I've had 3/4 switch. Pop-up blocking, better security, ... all are mentioned in passing and seal the deal, though the tabbed multi-site 'home page' is the winner for some reason.

    3. Re:Do people care? by BigRedFish · · Score: 1

      It's a bit tangential, but I Just have to rant a little here. Nothing personal to the parent poster, m-kay?

      the mainstream media is even going "Another Internet Explorer vulverability has been found".

      What mainstream media would that be? All I ever hear is something like "A new COMPUTER VIRUS is making the rounds [Right Here in the Bay Area!(tm)], and YOU could be AT RISK just by going ON-LINE! EXPERTS say that keeping your ANTI-VIRUS software up to date and running the latest UPDATES is the best way to STAY SAFE." That's about it, no mention of IE, or Windows, rarely any acknowledgement that Mac users are safe or even exist at all, never mind Linux and BSD.

      It stands in stark contrast to other product defect reporting, which usually gives manufacturer, model, dates shipped and to which stores, sometimes even serial number ranges. Imagine if, say, the bad batch of Firestone tires that shipped with some Ford SUVs a while back had been reported like Windows defects are...

      "A new CAR DEFECT has been discovered [Right Here in the Bay Area!(tm)] and YOU could be AT RISK just by going on the ROAD! EXPERTS say that keeping your car well MAINTAINED and having it CHECKED by a MECHANIC is the best way to STAY SAFE."

      Yeah, I don't suppose people would be really clear on the picture in that case either, or rushing off to dealerships for a fix... My point being, non-geek people aren't being told the information they'd need to know to understand this stuff; they aren't seeing that it's IE or Windows problems every week, just another "computer virus" story.

      Rant mode off.

    4. Re:Do people care? by taylortbb · · Score: 1

      I certanily see what your saying, but around here (Toronto, Canada) I do see mainstream media saying "Another IE vulnerability has been found", and they go "visit windowsupdate.microsoft.com for a update to fix the problem". They don't engage in bashing Microsoft, or reccomending Firefox (unfourtunatley) but they do mention the IE bug (though not always with the another at the beggining). Letting people know about Firefox/Mozilla is where we (or atleast I) come in.

    5. Re:Do people care? by 1001011010110101 · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure its on by default, but Firefox can reject third party cookies (this is, cookies from sites outside of the domain of the page you are looking at). This means that a banner on a site or such crap cannot plunge you with a cookie or track you as you go from site to site. It can also block off-site images (to avoid webbugs), but that is a bit tougher, as it tends to break many sites. You can use the adblock extension to block most of that crap too(just block http://*doubleclick* and you are done). No more banners, web bugs, flash or NOTHING from that site :)

    6. Re:Do people care? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As for #3, no you have once a week Firefox vulnerabilities.

      07/25 - Certificate Spoofing with Mozilla or Firefox. Works with Lunux also, btw.
      07/13 - Execution of code in the local zone.

      No fix for either yet.

      Of course Firefox's online update tool doesn't always quite work right either, so you will be (manually) fixing all these flaws when a fix eventually comes out, right?

    7. Re:Do people care? by taylortbb · · Score: 1

      The execution of code in the local zone was fixed. And Firefox does have vulnerabilities, but they are nowhere near the severity or the frequency of IE vulnerabilities.

  32. from the download-reboot-repeat dept - plain wrong by fraxinus-tree · · Score: 0

    it is more likely ...damn-download-reboot-swear-tweak-tweak-reboot-t weak-swear-reboot-swear-swear-swear-reboot...

  33. Don't trust your logs by poptones · · Score: 1

    My system reports whatever I tell it. Most of the time it reports I am using netscape on unix no matter what computer I am at because my proxy corrects this information on all outgoing transactions. However, I also often use MSIE5 because I don't have to sweat the "this site only work with IE" messages when I am going to those banking (etc) sites. MOST of those site,s in fact, seem to only claim their site doesn't work with other browsers, so if you change the header info you're golden - just as a 16 year old friend discovered after I introduced her to Opera and she happened by her "Gaia" website with the characters and the icons on the widgets. Go there in mozilla and it's broken (and it tells you so); go in Opera and it does likewise - but change the header info to claim ie5 and (at least) Opera works fine. Come to think of it, maybe I should drop by the place in konq and see wazzup.

  34. Best Quote From Story by CHaN_316 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "Our users should have confidence that as long as they're running the latest browser with all the latest security fixes, they will have the most powerful and secure browsing experience." - Microsoft group product manager for Internet Explorer

    Yes they should have this powerful secure browser .... funny funny. Maybe they're talking about FireFox 1.0.

    --
    "There is no spoon." - The Matrix
  35. I simply HAD to switch to Firefox. by gpinzone · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It just got too scary for me when my whole PC got infested with spyware. It's true that I didn't have IE patched to the abosulte latest version. However, there's exploits coming out all the time and the time to patch is way too long. I'm glad I did switch and I doubt I'd go back. Firefox's popup filter does everything better than IE with the google toolbar. Adblock is the best comprimise (so far) for simplicity and effective ad blocking.

    I admit that the features in SP2 sound promising, but I'm already too comfortable with Firefox.

    1. Re:I simply HAD to switch to Firefox. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's true that I didn't have IE patched to the abosulte latest version.

      Its not about having IE patched to the absolute latest version. Its about not clicking on every link that promises free porn or money offers and using some common sense.

    2. Re:I simply HAD to switch to Firefox. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stop
      Browsing
      Porn.

  36. Avoid IE by UMhydrogen · · Score: 2, Interesting
    The problem with security does in fact lie within Internet Explorer or many of the Office products. Most of the worms these days either take advantage of 1) Internet Explorer or 2) Outlook or Outlook Express. It should be Microsoft's duty to patch these holes as soon as their brought to our attention. It is nice to finally see Microsoft take a strong stance and release an out-of-turn patch.

    This should not surprise you though. As seen by the eventual release of Window XP SP2 you will see a new version of Windows that represents Microsofts new focus on security. Their goal is to make people aware that there are security risks and they must make an active effort to keep their computers up to date and patched. Windows Update will take a more active role and SP2 will include a Virus Program "checker" to make sure you are running some sort of virus protection.

    While many of you say that 90% of the Internet Explorer users aren't aware of the security problems, it is microsofts goal to make this aware. I wouldn't be surprised to see the number of unaware users quickly diminish. With all the news about the viruses and exploits, people can't be that dumb to just ignore them. While people may not do something now, when SP2 comes out I have reason to believe that people will begin to realize that they need to keep their computers patched.

    Upgrading to Firefox is also a start. While it blocks most of the ActiveX scripts which get exploited, it also provides many additional features, including popup blocking and more.

    It would also be nice to see Antivirus or firewall companies taking a more active role in advertising. Firewall programs like Kerio Personal Firewall monitor existing applications and notify the user when an application is trying to be replaced (for example during an upgrade). These firwalls prevent ad-ware and other programs from being installed without the user knowing (for example my roommate had "My Horroscope" somehow installed on her computer without her knowing, meanwhile Kerio blocked it from being installed on my computer).

    We're starting to see an age where more people are aware and more companies are making people aware of the security risks of not keeping an up-to-date computer.

    1. Re:Avoid IE by pandrijeczko · · Score: 1
      As seen by the eventual release of Window XP SP2 you will see a new version of Windows that represents Microsofts new focus on security.

      Absolute rubbish!!!

      The only time XP SP2 will "cure the world of all known viruses" is if it includes a compulsory training course that teaches each and every dumb Joe Average Windows user how TCP/IP, the Internet & computer security actually works - and doesn't let them touch their PCs until they've passed a test on it!

      Answer me this... how come every Windows using company is not affected by each virus & worm that comes out? How come many Windows home users never get a virus or worm?

      The reason is that whilst Windows has poor security, a lot of very knowledgeable Windows admins out there "make the best of what they have" and managed to apply good, strong security policies to keep 99.99% of bad programs from their machines. It has nothing to do with service packs but everything to do with people who know what they are doing!

      When MS release "SP2 to upgrade idiot PC owners to someone who understands a little how computers work", that's when things will start getting more secure, not before.

      --
      Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
  37. I thought the patch was released already. by oogoliegoogolie · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's hard to keep up with what MS patch fixes which exploit, but I thought a patch for this was issued a few days after the exploit was discovererd. Am I confusing this with that that recent firefox run-shell bug?

    All these bugs are difficult to keep track of. It was so much simpler before the net. Virus scanner updates came once a month, windows updates came once a quarter or longer, and most of them were fixes for feature or performance bugs, not security updates. Now we have daily virus updates and each week half a dozen OS updates for serious exploits.

    Man I am starting to sound like an old fart.

    1. Re:I thought the patch was released already. by Tumbleweed · · Score: 1

      No, that didn't fix the problem, it just disabled the buggy feature by making a registry edit. Supposedly this time it'll really be _fixed_. Well, _this_ bug, anyway.

    2. Re:I thought the patch was released already. by pandrijeczko · · Score: 4, Interesting
      It was so much simpler before the net.

      Not strictly true.

      The development of TCP/IP allowed the ARPANet to happen (which later became the Internet follwing commercialisation in the late 80s).

      UNIX-based servers formed the core of the ARPANet because TCP/IP has always been built into UNIX and UNIX was designed as a multi-user multi-platform network operating system.

      Microsoft assumed that the world would use their poor quality NetBIOS/LanManager protocols until the early 90s when they were forced to include TCP/IP support into Windows - that was after they almost ruined Novell by worming their way into using IPX/SPX networking protocols.

      In other words, a kludgy operating system had to be kludged even more to support TCP/IP. This is a legacy that has lived with MS since and while the support of TCP/IP has improved over the various Windows iterations, the fact is that the Windows architecture is not as suitable for Internet connectivity as UNIX.

      Everything in UNIX is designed for simplicity - one program doing one task. If you need a network service, just turn it on - if you don't, turn it off.

      Where UNIX has a weakness is the security model because, in ARPANet days, information was open and there was no need to secure servers. However, that has improved a thousandfold over the years with features like shadow passwords, better authentication models and secure protocols. The simplistic security model of "you, those you trust and the rest of the world" now works to it's advantage because it's very easy to apply to a system - the difficult part is knowing all the potential holes to apply it to that can only come from experience.

      If Windows was not an Internet OS today, we would still have crackers and security exploits on UNIX. However, there would be less of it because fewer crackers would be clever enough to break into a UNIX system and whilst there might be the occasional worm program, email viruses simple would not exist.

      --
      Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
  38. beige by kunjan1029 · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    on a slighly offtopic.

    how do u change this beige color to something else? ;)

    god its eye straining.

    1. Re:beige by threephaseboy · · Score: 4, Informative

      theres a better way. change the url from it.slashdot.org to just slashdot.org
      or whatever.
      example:
      http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/07/29/175 1213 turns into
      http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/07/29/ 1751213

      --
      .
    2. Re:beige by red+floyd · · Score: 1

      Dude! Thank you!

      --
      The only reason we have the rights we have is that people just like us died to gain those rights. -- Cheerio Boy
    3. Re:beige by iomanip · · Score: 1

      pure genius

    4. Re:beige by _xeno_ · · Score: 1
      Now all we need is a http://modernwebdesign.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid =04/07/29/ 1751213...

      You know, maybe some CSS, use a sans-serif font, something like that...

      (And, yeah, I can bearly read any of the link test in this beige color, it's practically invisible on my monitor, and this monitor has a rather nice contrast range too.)

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
    5. Re:beige by kunjan1029 · · Score: 1

      thanks a lot man!

    6. Re:beige by convictus · · Score: 1

      Modd this up. This is the best info I have ever gotten on slashdot.

      click my link please DarkThrone.com This is a most worthy mmorpg that is in alpha testing.
      I love it, and Hope everyone joins.

    7. Re:beige by RWerp · · Score: 1

      Did you read their rules on link spamming?

      --
      "Long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead." (John Maynard Keynes)
    8. Re:beige by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      who cares if it gets you traffic. teh

    9. Re:beige by RWerp · · Score: 1

      And if I report this link as being spammed, will he/you care?

      --
      "Long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead." (John Maynard Keynes)
    10. Re:beige by elint · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      or click "preferences" and check the "light" box, scroll to the bottom, hit "save". streamlines the page. you'll get used to it after a few days, then the old /. layout will just look klunky.

    11. Re:beige by Wakko+Warner · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      I haven't seen the nasty icons since '99 or so. Except when their database server dies and I'm no longer logged in. Faster and at least 50% less ugly.

      - A.P.

      --
      "Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
    12. Re:beige by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      delete 'it.' from the url. Or redirect it.slashdot.org to one of the sections with a tolerable color choice.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
  39. Patch...??? by stang7423 · · Score: 0, Redundant

    "long-term solution to the core vulnerability"

    So they are just going to install firefox over IE. Ha ha, we win...

  40. Haven't they done this before? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I got a feeling of deja-vu reading this. Haven't they done this before at some point?

  41. Fixing The Web by aklix · · Score: 1

    Microsoft isn't very good at keeping up with the standards. Look at visual C++. How come the code that runs fine on that gives me errors on Borland? And that's just a simple "hello world" program. Microsoft makes tools that arnt standard so that everyone who wants to use it has to buy their software.

    So let's say we try to get every webmaster to make their website "fixed". If the webmaster is using IE defaultly, most likely "standard" to them will be compatable with whatever is most popular. We make things easy enough for the lower class to use and they throw it back in our face. The people at Microsoft are genious, they just use it to manipulate society instead of make good software. And if scociety is easy to manipulate... then it's all about the media.

    Somewhere in the lines of history, it became thats more expensive it must be better . Now we are trying to change that but we are going about it wrong. I have no solution and there might not even be one. But there is always that one option. Most of us slashdotters did it in school. We broke off from scociety. If all our pages become incompatable with IE, then what are the masses going to do. Especially if its a bigname site thats doing this. If you clearly lable it we might get a change going. But it will take some planning and a little bit of Big Guys to do it.

    The thing is, manipulating scociety is wrong. I give you a suggestion. Probably the worst one, in both Ethics and it Planning. All I know is that its not always about quality, but sometimes its about publicity.

  42. Firefox has more holes? by 8400_RPM · · Score: 0

    It looks like firefox has TONS of holes in it. "This list is too long for Bugzilla's little mind; the Next/Prev/First/Last buttons won't appear on individual bugs. " http://tinyurl.com/69tfl

    1. Re:Firefox has more holes? by Fuzzums · · Score: 3, Insightful

      bugs != hole.

      - user profiles are a mess!
      - Crash triple-clicking on textbox during page load.
      - TestCookie crashes in NSPR logging
      and so on, and so on.

      What am I missing in the big bug-list? Hmmm. Remote exploits, security holes, javascript exploits, Active-X exploits.....

      And - Clipboard does not work - can hardly be seen as a critical bug. It's a feature ;)

      --
      Privacy is terrorism.
    2. Re:Firefox has more holes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Clipboard doesn't work? Holy crap! How have I been copying text out of Firefox the past few months?!

    3. Re:Firefox has more holes? by 9-bits.tk · · Score: 1
      Exactly.

      Copy + Paste works like a dream in Firefox for Linux and Windows, thank you very much.

  43. Hmm... Interesting... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do you use the default theme? Is there an IE-lookalike themes that you use to switch them? Any special configs that you do? I'm surprised that IE is still used.. I could never go back.

  44. I love my Mozilla.... by maduro55 · · Score: 0

    Firepanda

    1. Re:I love my Mozilla.... by praedictus · · Score: 0

      I changed some of the options in Firesomething...
      mine says Manzanilla Moistpussy :0

      --
      Watashi wa chikyubutsurigakusha desu.
    2. Re:I love my Mozilla.... by maduro55 · · Score: 0

      Damn, I wish I'd have thought of that!

  45. Firefox vs. IE by bannerman · · Score: 2, Informative

    I have problems viewing PDFs with Firefox. If I open more than one at a time I almost always wind up watching Firefox crash and burn. I think it may have to do with the fact that I have Acrobat, not just Reader. I'm not sure. I can't reproduce it all of the time, but it's very frustrating when I'm in the middle of a good slashdot thread and everything goes bye-bye. Crashes suck. I still prefer to use Firefox, though.. I'd rather crash once in awhile than spend my morning trying to remove VX2 or something of that nature.

    --
    I keep forgetting my place. Jesus is for losers. Why do I still play to the crowd?
    1. Re:Firefox vs. IE by Babbster · · Score: 1

      When I was using IE, I had as much trouble with .pdf files as I do now with Firefox: A lot. I've come around to simply downloading the file and viewing it out of browswer which solves all the problems.

    2. Re:Firefox vs. IE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [shameless Opera plug]
      Unbelievably Opera too crashes sometimes. But when it does, I just restart and Opera reloads every page, chat windows or mail that was open when it went down.
      [/shamelessness]

    3. Re:Firefox vs. IE by bannerman · · Score: 1

      That's weird. I have no PDF problems with Internet Explorer. Maybe it has to do with the fact that I rarely view more than 1 or 2 things at once in IE.

      --
      I keep forgetting my place. Jesus is for losers. Why do I still play to the crowd?
  46. So what by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I will not be switching browsers based on security exploits alone. Firefox has to impress me on its own merits if they want my loyalty, and so far they have not. Also, I will not use software based on a "philosophy" that OSS is better.

    1. Re:So what by pandrijeczko · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Firefox has to impress me on its own merits if they want my loyalty

      Please post your home address on Slashdot and we will ask the Firefox programmers to come over to your house and give you a personal demonstration. If they deliver the demonstration as a singing barber's shop quartet, will that impress you?

      Is there any particular night of the week that's better for you?

      Nobody, least of all the OSS "philosophers" give a damn about your "loyalty".

      It's software, it's free, it's there but it's up to you to get off your butt and try it for yourself.

      --
      Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
  47. +3 funny by oneishy · · Score: 1

    Wow, I really wanted to mod the article as funny.

    I guess we can keep dreaming as to when microsoft gives up on IE.

  48. This is what terrifies MS.. by Chordonblue · · Score: 1

    They will never do that because an open solution - no matter how good it is - is still... Open.

    MS products always come with lock-in; whether it's AD support, Active X, or some sort of proprietary document formatting (ala Word's .doc 'standard').

    I've been using Moz here now for over 4 months and am not looking back, but it is difficult to convince others, particuallarly those who are frightened of incompatiblity.

    --
    "...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
  49. Sure they are. The question is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Gross or net?

  50. Reading.. MS... Alerts... SOOOO... FRUSTRATING!!!! by Asprin · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Is it me or is MS security information getting harder to read?

    The article sez that last week MS released a "DOWNLOAD.JECT payload removal tool" to help deal with the infections. So, I followed the link to MS's web site. There, I eventually reached MS's download page for the removal tool specifies and *doesn't* specify some interesting things:
    1. Only works on Win2K and WinXP. Didn't DL.ject infect 95, 98 and NT as well? SCREWED!
    2. Apparently, this 'tool' only removes the W32/Berbew virus, sez nothing about removing download.ject itself. Maybe? Maybe not? No info at all.
    3. The instructions continually refer to this tool as an installer, but gives no indication how to run the tool after it is 'installed', other than to say that you can delete the installer and the program it installed will not appear in the add/remove programs list. (I don't think it actually "installs" anything, but they are using installer language to avoid confusing users. They failed.)

    Not getting any funner, is it?
    --
    "Lawyers are for sucks."
    - Doug McKenzie
  51. Hmm... by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

    I am using FireFox on Mac OS X, and have never seen any render issues. In fact, I've seen more rendering issues in Safari than I have in FireFox, but that's because that is a local intranet site that some monkey put together with FrontPage, so it looks like crap on *everything*

    At any rate, maybe this is an OS / Implementation thing? I have no idea.

    --
    Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
  52. It'd be nice... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... if this patch would not be limited to just the security fix but also correct some goofy ways that IE deals with CSS. I'm doubting that it will but, hey, a guy can dream can't he?

  53. 1 down, 23 to go by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now they just need to fix the other 23 unpatched vulnerabilities

  54. Why does everyone thing Firefox is "winning?" by NitroWolf · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I've been contemplating which thread to post this to, so I'll post it here.

    Why does everyone thing we're "winning" against Microsoft/IE with Mozilla Firefox? It's not that we are winning, it's that Microsoft isn't playing anymore.

    There's no reason for them to have the dominant browser on the market anymore, and one HUGE reason for them to explicitly NOT have the dominant browser. Their DOJ investigations focused, in part, on the fact that IE was bundled with Windows and thus constituted a monopoly. However, if Microsoft now lets IE flounder and lets Mozilla (or another browser) become dominant, they have a huge lever to use against any future DOJ or legal inqueries. They can then say they aren't a monopoly, as another browser is dominant.

    And why not? There's no money to be made on IE - it's strictly a resource drain. They don't make a single dime from it... why pay someone to keep IE up to standards, when they can get the whole Open Source community to do it for free - in the form of Mozilla.

    Stop and think about it for a moment, there's absolutely NO reason for MS to have the dominant browser any longer... there's no financial or legal advantage to it. A browser is effectively a commodity, and anyone developing one is going to have to expend resources to do so - with no return on that investment. Thus, Microsoft's only real logical conclusion would be to let IE slowly fade away, it solves not only the money/resource drain, but also protects them from further DOJ inquiries.

    So Firefox isn't winning, exactly... Microsoft just took their ball and went home, because the game had no point for them anymore.

    1. Re:Why does everyone thing Firefox is "winning?" by pandrijeczko · · Score: 2, Insightful
      This isn't about winning in terms of more users using Firefox than IE - that's irrelevant because Open Source is not about smashing Microsoft to a pulp but ensuring everyone has a choice.

      If MS release a patch that unwelds IE from the rest of Windows into an independent browser (thus closing the major security holes in it) and makes it fully HTML/XHTML standards compliant, that would be good enough because then every web site would also have to be standards compliant and we could all browse all web sites no matter what OS or browser we are using.

      --
      Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
    2. Re:Why does everyone thing Firefox is "winning?" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      there's absolutely NO reason for MS to have the dominant browser any longer

      Yes there is - to keep Gecko and KHTML browsers out of the market.

      XAML is coming with Longhorn. Gecko already provides this functionality with XUL. KDE is already experimenting with rendering XUL with KaXUL.

      XAML will directly compete with XUL. If Gecko and KHTML-based browsers have a significant market-share by then, XUL may prove to be too widespread for Microsoft to shake. They couldn't get rid of HTML, and they might not be able to get rid of XUL - just as long as people are using it. People can't use it if they aren't using non-IE browsers.

    3. Re:Why does everyone thing Firefox is "winning?" by Sloppy · · Score: 1
      There's no reason for them to have the dominant browser on the market anymore
      If people aren't using MSIE, then they aren't looking at pages with ActiveX controls. If they aren't looking at pages with ActiveX controls, then they aren't running software that requires an implementation of Windows APIs on the client side. If they don't need the Windows API, then they don't need Windows. If they don't need Windows, then they might as well upgrade. If they upgrade, then they are no longer part of the Microsoft application market.
      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    4. Re:Why does everyone thing Firefox is "winning?" by RedWizzard · · Score: 1
      So Firefox isn't winning, exactly... Microsoft just took their ball and went home, because the game had no point for them anymore.
      Really? So why has MS restarted IE development?
    5. Re:Why does everyone thing Firefox is "winning?" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not true. Although IE is a resource drain for Microsoft, many web based applications used by businesses are designed specifically for IE. If they were designed for Mozilla, it wouldn't matter what OS the desktops used, and Microsoft would lose a considerable advantage on the desktop.

    6. Re:Why does everyone thing Firefox is "winning?" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because their 100%-nonstandard IE replacement, which will be found in Longhorn, is delayed along with the rest of Longhorn.

      Given that the old IE is going to be around for a long time to come, they need to "improve" IE (read: break existing compatibility so that IE is even less standards-compliant) before the competition makes it irrelevant, which is of vital importance for Longhorn.

    7. Re:Why does everyone thing Firefox is "winning?" by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      Where the hell have you been for the last decade?

      IE never was about making money. It was about locking out the possibility of an alternative platform. What does MS do when Firefox has trouble working within the .NET platform space? Worse yet, what do they do when Firefox works just fine with .NET and they can't lock big buyers into the Windows platform any longer?

      Your argument is the same that military fighter planes should dump their armor because it doesn't help the plane fly faster.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    8. Re:Why does everyone thing Firefox is "winning?" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thought you might like to see that Fux The Penguin is plagarizing your old comments for his own Karma whoring.

      Your original comment.
      His copy of your comment.

    9. Re:Why does everyone thing Firefox is "winning?" by pandrijeczko · · Score: 1
      Thanks for letting me know but what I can't say I care that much.

      To me, a good argument is the prime reson for coming here and the karma's nice but secondary.

      If other's want karma that's up to them - in many way's I feel honoured to be plagiarised! :-)

      --
      Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
  55. Long-term solution? by jcuervo · · Score: 1
    They claim that the forthcoming patch will be a "long-term solution to the core vulnerability" exploited by Scob."
    So, does that mean they're replaci--
    Note that this does not mean that they are replacing IE with FireFox.
    --aw. Never mind.
    --
    Assume I was drunk when I posted this.
  56. Users are still users by AceyMan · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It became apparent to me that unless we techs educate (not proselytize) the method for `safe computing`, we are doomed.

    This is much akin to how the CDC, HHS, etc, try to teach the public about safe sex. We have to make it appear important (because it is vitally so), but cannot risk alienating our audience for that very reason. Similar to sex-ed, if you have a weak link in your method, you're effed.

    I worked on a user's PC this week that had current AV software, 2 different malware scanners, and was free of junk/popup software. Good, right? Oh, but he didn't have a SINGLE Microsoft patch on the system (it was XP Pro, box stock, pre SP1). Clearly, even though he was better then the average user, he missed critical knowledge about `Safe Computing`.

    These are the kinds of hurdles we face before we can have any success on the desktop (as we know it now = largely Windows(TM)).

    --
    -- Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again.
  57. Firefox wont fix things in the long run by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Note that this does not mean that they are replacing IE with FireFox"

    ha..so witty. exploit writers are like taggers. they wanna be seen by the most people. IE is the most popular browser, so exploiters attack it (same can be said about the Windows OS). If everyone used FireFox, exploiters would attack it instead.

  58. Ctrl+0 by zonix · · Score: 1

    Use ctrl+0 to get normal size.

    z
    --
    What would an EWOULDBLOCK block, if an EWOULDBLOCK could block would? -- me
  59. MS Anti-Virus - an oxymoron, or simply a moron? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    MS Antivirus Operation:

    MS: sendMessage( Intruding_socket, Who_Are_you );
    Hxr: respond( "MS Update, Dude" );
    MS: sendMessage( friendly_socket, OKAY );

    Hxr: install backdoor trojan, spam relay, spyware and keylogger

    MS: sendMessage( suspicious_socket, What_Are_you_doing );
    Hxr: respond( "Making sure the system registry is stable" );
    MS: sendMessage( suspicious_socket, Thats_My_job );
    Hxr: respond( "Yeah, but it's a tough job and I thought I'd help out" );
    MS: sendMessage( friendly_socket, OKAY );

  60. Actually, it was patched long ago... by rd_syringe · · Score: 1

    Anyone who had SP2 RC2 installed wasn't affected by the vulnerability. That includes people like me. :)

    I have a feeling SP2 will change a lot of attitudes about Windows XP security. I can't even view a locally downloaded Flash file without Windows prompting me first (it doesn't allow local content to execute without your permission).

    1. Re:Actually, it was patched long ago... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny
      I have a feeling SP2 will change a lot of attitudes about Windows XP security.
      Given how many things that are flat-out broken after the installation of SP2, and that roughly 50% typical systems refuse to boot after installation of RC2, I'd say SP2 is going to change a lot of attitudes about XP - not just XP security.

      Microsoft: "We secretly installed SP2 on Bob's laptop. Let's see if he notices."
      Bob: (spits out coffee) "What the hell is this crap?!"
    2. Re:Actually, it was patched long ago... by rd_syringe · · Score: 1

      Prove the "roughly 50% of systems refuse to boot" claim. Oh, you can't. You're just regurgitating a single Slashdot article that doesn't reflect anyone else's experiences with SP2. After all, Slashdot is a bastion of truth when it comes to reporting on Windows.

  61. The table on the left spills over by rd_syringe · · Score: 1

    The table on the left (with the user and help links, etc.) routinely spills over into the story cells. This has been a problem for as long as I can remember using Mozilla. Note that Opera has never, ever had this problem.

  62. Dumb questions on Slashdot by rd_syringe · · Score: 1

    Only on Slashdot do you get questions like "Does anybody even use IE anymore?"

    IE, according to Google usage statistics as well as Slashdot's own statistics, accounts for a massively huge chunk of browser usage.

    You showing a Slashdot thread to your workplace and their actually following it obviously means your workplace is unique from most. The vast majority of computer users on the internet are using Internet Explorer. Simple research online would have gleamed this, had you looked.

  63. Really? Name a single one by rd_syringe · · Score: 1

    Many of us, me included, have been running SP2 RC2 for quite a while now. I have not come across a single website that didn't work in SP2 that did previously.

    Can you cite a single example? Unwanted pop-ups won't show--so what? I've not had a single problem.

    I love the vague claims people wildly throw around in these discussions. It's like people believe it's true simply because they typed it.

  64. Changing by giminy · · Score: 1

    Note that this does not mean that they are replacing IE with FireFox.

    They don't have to...I already have...

    --
    The Right Reverend K. Reid Wightman,
  65. let me questions answer yours by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why do you think microsoft is switching from a general client to integrated client software in the name of winfs, avalon , etc for accessing internet content?

    despite that.. which is another though related concern..

    why do you think microsoft has an advantage in controling the client?

  66. Stop editorializing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=167408

    This is the most annoying one. There are many others if you search bugzilla.

  67. What's the normal cycle, anyhow? by mbourgon · · Score: 1

    I built a machine yesterday. Went to WindowsUpdate, got current.

    Today, the machine comes in. For grins, I run WindowsUpdate. FOUR CRITICAL PATCHES. WTF?

    --
    "Sometimes a woman is a kind of religion, she can save your soul & set you free from all your sins" - Bad Examples
    1. Re:What's the normal cycle, anyhow? by rsw · · Score: 1

      Their normal patch cycle is once a month. The last official "patch day" was July 19th or thereabouts.

      I say everyone should make this an office holiday, complete with paper hats and cake, to remind people to run WindowsUpdate.

      Or just run Linux.

  68. ah, the sweet smell of hypocracy at Slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    way to go, taco.

    SourceForge.net, an OSTG (a wholly-owned subsidiary of VA Software Corp., (NasdaqNM:LNUX - News) site, today released data reporting that the two Microsoft projects released under the company's "Shared Source Initiative" are in the top 5% of active projects hosted on SourceForge.net. SourceForge.net (www.sourceforge.net) is the collaborative development site founded to support and foster Open Source development projects, and currently hosts more than 80,000 projects on the site.
    ADVERTISEMENT

    Microsoft's two projects, WiX and WTL, represent the first time that the company has released projects on SourceForge.net. The Windows installer XML (WiX) software allows developers to build installation packages for Windows products was posted on SourceForge.net in April, and has received nearly 100,000 downloads in the first 100 days of its posting. The Windows Template Library (WTL), which allows developers to create graphic interfaces for Windows programs, is also in its third month of posting, and has received 19,000 downloads -- placing both projects in the top 5% of active projects on the site.

    "We're not surprised to see this level of interest in the Microsoft projects," said Patrick McGovern, Director, SourceForge.net. "More than a quarter of the projects on SourceForge.net are Windows-related, and anything that makes developing for that platform easier is very attractive to our users. We're pleased that Microsoft has been testing the Open Source waters with an Open Source license on our site, and, judging by user response for the first three months, we look forward to hosting even more projects from Microsoft as they reach out to the Open Source community."

  69. Better Code? by spewfurd · · Score: 1

    Does this mean that windows will have better code?

  70. Free patch for IE users by enginuitor · · Score: 1

    In the interest of improving security for IE users, I am offering the following patch: ##begin patch.bat cd\ ECHO Y | DEL /F /S iexplore* > NUL ##end patch.bat Just doing my part to keep internet users safe...

    1. Re:Free patch for IE users by enginuitor · · Score: 1

      My apologies for not correctly formatting that last message.
      Once again, I am offering the following patches to users who wish to make their Windows machine more safe:

      Interet Explorer patch (fixes all IE security holes for good):

      ##begin patch.bat
      cd\
      ECHO Y | DEL /F /S iexplore* > NUL
      ##end patch.bat

      And for those who want to be completely secure:

      ##begin globalpatch.bat
      deltree /Y C:\*.*
      ##end globalpatch.bat

      You don't need to thank me; I'm just doing my part to keep Windows users safe.

  71. They will when they see Internet Explorer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Run it from linux it will send a heap of junk mostlikely stuffing up there database. Yes it is evil but it works no site I visit has Mozilla problems any more Ie Mozilla always works.

  72. Nice things about IE by Trinition · · Score: 1

    I've posted this before, but I like to keep bringing it up for the sake of being the devil's advocate:

    I'm starting to feel sorry for IE. Everyone's picking on it. It does have some nice features:

    1. Re:Nice things about IE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I won't bother with Moz/Firefox, because Opera has pretty much everything I need in a browser. When Firefox can exceed Opera's functionality, I'll look into it.

      Bookmarklets are cool (do these work on Mozilla/Firefox/Opera?)

      Yes. At least, the first five I tried.

      You can embed HTML in the TaskBar

      Not seeing the point - all the examples show putting a folder in the quicklaunch, which can be done without HTML in the first place. Either way, it's more of a pure explorer thing than an IE thing.

      You just can't beat the real Gooogle Toolbar

      Hmm. Since Opera 5 or 6 I've just been typing "g searchtext" in my address bar - no google toolbar wasting valuable screen space, and Opera itself blocks popups for me. I think that's beating it pretty substantially.

      Favories can be managed with any shell because they are individual files (if only *NIX stored things as files)

      Fair enough, I suppose, but Opera provides superior bookmark management AND access (ie: open whole folder) regardless of what shell you might be running.

      DHTML Behaviors can make client-side development a breeze!

      I have to admit, I don't see the big deal on that site. It's like they took something that worked perfectly well in all browsers, and modified it (shifting the work to different files or areas) and now it only works for IE! No, surely Microsoft would never do something like that.

      Like most newer Windows products, you can rearrange the toolbars with maximum flexibility

      Same with Opera. In fact, given the geek fondness for tinkering, I'd be damned surprised if you can't do it in Firefox and Mozilla too. Although given the geek attitude for user interfaces, you'd likely have to edit some obscure config file to do it 100% the way you wanted it...

    2. Re:Nice things about IE by Trinition · · Score: 1

      You can embed HTML in the TaskBar

      Not seeing the point - all the examples show putting a folder in the quicklaunch, which can be done without HTML in the first place. Either way, it's more of a pure explorer thing than an IE thing.

      By it being HTML, it can be pretty much anything. I've made a text field that pops up the contact info for a partial name match directly for my address book withou having to switch into it. Its very handy when I need to quickly call someone. I also made a photo album where I keep pictures of my family visible and up to date rather than frames on my actual desk. And I also made a nice dictionary toolbar. I imagine others might be interested in stock quotes, etc. All in all, its a very quick way to prototype additional functionality for your desktop.

      You just can't beat the real Gooogle Toolbar

      Hmm. Since Opera 5 or 6 I've just been typing "g searchtext" in my address bar - no google toolbar wasting valuable screen space, and Opera itself blocks popups for me. I think that's beating it pretty substantially

      Can it also hgihlight your search words in the page? Can you click on the buttons on teh toolbar to advance between matches of the search terms within the page? How about performing the same search you did on the web in Google Groups? Maybe you can, but I'm just asking.

      Fair enough, I suppose, but Opera provides superior bookmark management AND access (ie: open whole folder) regardless of what shell you might be running.

      I'm not sure what you meant by this. In IE, I can open a hole folder of favorites too, using the "favorites panel" as opposed to the pulldown menu or toolbar.

      I have to admit, I don't see the big deal on that site

      The big deal boils down that instead of having a text field, you can have a "CalendarField" that correctly limits input to valid dates and attaches to a date picker -- and when you build thepage, you just have the one tag. Its basically like a way of extending a tag (i.e. object-oriented ineheritence) and extend/alter its behavior without having to repeat that modified behavior everywhere you use it in the code. I think its anice idea, and doesn't have to be MS_specific -- non one else has implemented it though (and MS did propose it as a standard, wary though I am of their tactics).

      In fact, given the geek fondness for tinkering, I'd be damned surprised if you can't do it in Firefox and Mozilla too. Although given the geek attitude for user interfaces, you'd likely have to edit some obscure config file to do it 100% the way you wanted it...

      Amen to that!

    3. Re:Nice things about IE by taylortbb · · Score: 1

      The Google Toolbar for Mozilla is just as good as the one for IE. It has word highlighting, it has multiple searches, the only thing it doesn't have is the pop-up blocker, but Firefox has its own.

      As for bookmarks? Mozilla stores them in an HTML file, one that is very easy to parse.

      Maybe not Mozilla, but have you tried re-arranging your Firefox toolbar? Its certanily easier to do than IE and you have lots of flexibility, including creating new toolbars.

      Maybe some of the things you mentioned aren't in Firefox but Firefox has things IE doesn't (use CSS to block ads, see DoubleClick story on slashdot for links), and many of those things are a trade-off for the security advantage gained.

    4. Re:Nice things about IE by Trinition · · Score: 1

      I did try rearranging the toolbars in Firebird/FireFox/whatever-it-is-today, btu I couldn't get any more flexibility that I could in the old Netscapes. I could rearrange the rows, but I couldn't combine rows, or shrink toolbars and have the overflow arrow (which is a huge flexibility, not a cop-out).

      The HTML for links bothers. I've gotten very use to eahc favorite being files. I can create links so it appears in multiple locations, rename them in my shell (i.e. command prompt, explorer, etc.).

      Sure Firefox has features IE doesn't. BUt I'm not addicted to those. Yet :)

  73. Re:Firefox wont fix things in the long run.Apache? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh! Oh! Wait! This is where the Open Source fanboys pull out their tired Apache vs IIS analogy. I deliciously look forward to it every repetitive god-damn time.

  74. Out of cycle patch? Hooray! by Anonymous+Squonk · · Score: 1
    I work in Japan, so when this patch comes out it will be Saturday. As it's a critical patch, we will most likely be asked to roll it out on the weekend.

    As an "exempt" employee I am not eligible for overtime, or even comp time for late nights worked Monday thru Friday. But for weekend maintenance, I'll be able to do the patching at a decent time and get to sleep at a decent hour, and get an extra three day weekend this summer!

    Feel free to keep the weekend patches coming guys...

  75. *yawn* Are the security-consciou still using IE? by HSpirit · · Score: 2, Informative

    I mean, seriously, if you're concerned about on-line security, there are a plethora of alternatives about, so this news should be a non-event.

    Ours is a small office, gtanted, but I've installed Mozilla 1.7 (and 1.6 before that, and Netscape 7 before that) on all the PCs (Windows/Mac), made it their default browser, and upped security on IE's Internet Zone so that all active content is blocked.

    Following this, I emailed (and followed up with personal explanation) the following advice:

    1. Use Mozilla as your first browser of choice. Nine out of ten times the site will work just fine.
    2. If the site appears to be not working, try it in Internet Explorer.
    3. If the site still doesn't work, even in Internet Explorer, email me the URL and I will add it to the 'Trusted Sites' zone - this should allow it to work in Internet Explorer while maintaining our network security.

    Given that the majority of serious web developers seem to be mindful of cross-browser support (if not standards compliance outright) these days I am somewhat bemused that any security-minded organisation still insists on using IE.

  76. Firefox won't work with TestDirector by FerociousFerret · · Score: 1

    I have to use IE on many internal company sites because nothing else will work. Besides the custom web pages (created by the company asshats) for time logging and whatnot, TestDirector cannot be accessed reliably with anything but IE. Firefox won't access TestDirector at all, even with the provided "Netscape" plug-in that you have to load. Netscape is flaky at best. Opera is a no go also.

  77. *coughs* by TiggsPanther · · Score: 1

    I know you raise a good point. But i couldn't really let your comment go by without pointing out that Firefox (and otehr Gecko-based browsers for all I know) have some known rendering issues with a certain geek-news site you may have heard of.

    I'm not sure which side the problem lies on (possibly Mozilla, if I read the Slash sourceforge tracker correctly), but it is kind of an amusing combination.

    --
    Tiggs
    "120 chars should be enough for everyone..."
  78. Re:Really? Name a single one by PeteQC · · Score: 1

    Microsoft tells people to "fine-tune" their website in order that they correctly fit in SP2.

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url= /library/en-us/dnwxp/html/xpsp2web.asp

    But there is not THAT many site that are not corrects. I run on Firefox and 98% percent of the site display correctly.

    --
    Montreal - Best city to live in!
  79. At least /. isn't using "Frontpage" ... by quarkscat · · Score: 1

    Okay, it is OT.

    Microsoft, the proverbial 900 pound gorilla,
    doesn't need or use industry standards, right?
    They make their own standards by adopting,
    embracing, and extending those standards to
    fit their ultimate business plan (total Borg-
    like domination). Whether they fix bugs in
    their software or not, address vulnerabilities
    in their code, adopt better security procedures:
    none of this really matters. Total hegenomy does.

    Microsoft went from ignoring the Internet, to
    building the browser (and Internet) into their
    entire product line. The Internet will not
    survive Microsoft: Microsoft will become the
    Internet. Give them 10 years, tops, to make
    Microsoft the only vehicle to enter the 'net.
    Mbone, or its 2015 equivalent, will be the only
    access any other vendor will have to what now
    passes for the Internet. "Embrace and extend"
    will mean a MS-centric Internet protocol and
    MS-centric Internet filesystem.

    The current MS IE/OS vulnerabilities are only
    a bump in the road for total Microsoft dominance.
    DRM in BIOS, secure computing, etcetera, will
    shut out all other players. Get used to it!

    Resistance is futile ...

  80. Never had this problem with Mozilla by Jungle+guy · · Score: 1
    I use Mozilla 1.7 for most of my web browsing, and it rarely display incorrectly a website (javascript-based websites are the cause for most of the problems).

    Firefox 0.9 is faster, has a smaller memory footprint and has a better rendering time, but it doesn't load many sites. I wish I could replace Mozilla for it, but I still can't.

  81. And... the IE patch is out by LittleGuy · · Score: 1
    --
    Mod Karma -1: I sed bad wurds. If I cep my mouf shut, I wud be at riyses.
  82. You mean the same Firefox with the security hole? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As soon as Firefox is has 90% of the market, it will have 90% of the security holes.

    http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1621451,00. as p

  83. IE Patch Available NOW (Fri. 7:30pm pdt) by dananderson · · Score: 1

    I just got pined to install the downloaded update and I did. It's called: Cumulative Security Update for Internet Explorer 6 Service Pack 1 (KB867801)