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Palm OS To Run On Linux
mwk88 writes "PalmSource today announced it is acquiring China Mobile Soft, a leading Chinese mobile phone software company, and will offer future versions of Palm OS Cobalt running on Linux. Full disclosure: I am a PalmSource employee -- but also a Slashdot reader, and would like to get some feedback. You can find more detail in this letter to the Linux community." NewsForge (also part of OSTG) has a textified (non-PDF), linked version of the letter.
I think it's a nice idea.. Get the best of both worlds.. Look at the Macintosh.. they got tons of software added to their platform by adopting BSD as their OS.
Previously there had been some rumors of PalmOne, the maker of the Palm PDAs and the Treo smartphone, doing Windows Mobile-powered Treo.
c hinamobilesoft/
All this pretty much feels like PalmOS is having its days counted.
Vincent
http://www.oberle.org/blog/2004/12/08/palmsource-
Just yesterday one of our lead support people internally at my institution (Carleton College) commented that people are having sync problems with SP2, and noted that interest in support issues like this seems to be waning, and that less and less really interesting news seems to be coming out about Palm OS. Her impression is that there's serious trouble.
Another outfit in serious trouble was Novell. The situations aren't entirely comparable, of course, but affiliating themselves with the open-source movement seems to have turned Novell (which looked a bit moribund just a few years ago) into an interesting outfit. This move also appears to have opened up new possibilities that nobody could
have foreseen.
So who knows. If Palm OS were able to run under Linux, perhaps some new possibilities would open up there as well, especially given that Linux isn't just a platform on which Palm OS could run, but also a kind of nascent competitor in the mobile device arena.
I don't think halfway measures will help much, though. And the statement cited in the original posting (the PDF file) shows some ambivalence to the whole notion of open-source software.
We'll just have to see where this leads.
---- Richard L. Goerwitz III
Isn't this backwards. Shouldn't it be Linux runs on Palm hardware, not Palm OS runs in Linux??
. there used to be a sig here.....
If I read this properly - what Palmsource actually plans is a symbiosis between Linux and Palm-OS - while keeping Palm-OS proprietary and closed-source software.
It shows a few similarities with Mac-OS X imho - you can run Linux-software AND Palm software on the same platform.
Slashdot: stuff for news, nerds that matter, matter for news, stuff that nerd
Will it run X and KDE.
I bet you will need new hardware to run this...
Unix its simple, but sometimes it takes a geniuos to understand the simplicity -- Dennis Ritchie
Why? Surely just Linux by itself is fine
Sharp's Zaurus PDA already runs Linux, yet is doing enormously poorly in the USA (not sure how successful it is; suspect in Japan it's doing better). If anyone can bring Linux to the palm of your hand, PalmSource can.
Sharp: it's not too late for you. Maybe an interoperability agreement with PalmSource would help?
That would be great but could you please come up with full support for syncing with Linux as well? I mean open source solutions are good but not good enough (I can't sync birthdays and install to the SD card) I didn't rtfa so I apologise if that's addressed in it.
I tried to contact Sony about changing PalmOS on my Clie, a Japanese NX70V, from the Japanese version to the English one, which my father has bought while on a business trip to Japan. I've simply been told that it is impossible to do that by a senior support specialist, while another told me that I should "search the net" for information on reflashing the device on my own! So I'm stuck with a cool device that makes me feel like I'm Bill Murray in Lost in Translation.
So, forgive my lack of Linux knowledge but, will Palm OS on linux be like KDE or Gnome on linux in the sense that it's a GUI that sits on linux? I'm just trying to understand how this will work and why it's a good idea.
You are a PalmSource employee, so we trust you to know what you're talking about.
But you are a slashdot reader, so you won't have read TFA.
This is a dilly of a pickle.
I've been wanting to get a PDA but I've been pretty dissappointed with the slow OS that ships with Windows-based PDAs.
And, Palm OS is a piece of crap. But, with Palm running on linux, I would be willing to bed that some unhappy nerd will fix it for the rest of us and give us something more than tolerable. So, I'm gonna be very optimistic about this.
I want to be able to play my GBA games on my new pda and watch lectures in high-quality - but the limitations of both of the current OS's seem to stifle that..
--- We need more Ron Paul!
There's a textafied version underneath. This guy was kind enough to consider us people who dislike adobe/acrobat.
*yeah, yeah, we know we don't have to use acrobat, there are billions of readers out there, blah blah blah*
I have been a Palm fan since I got my 3Com Palm III back in the '90s. I recently bought a Tungsten. It is simple to use and has a brilliant interface. (If only they'd bring back Grafitti I.) .prc apps run without much of an issue, and if they keep the interface similar, I don't really care what OS is being used - Palm OS or Embedded Linux. My main concern will simply be integration with my (now six year old) data files.
If the old Palm
On the flip side, I'd love to see a Palm-created synch tool for my home machine which runs almost exclusively on SuSE. Right now I have to use the sometimes flaky KPilot and I get issues with AvantGo.
The Kai's Semi-Updated Website Thingy
The new OS5 already has emulation capabilities for the Motorola processors of the older palms. I wonder if the linux will run an OS5 emulator that will emulate the motorola CPUs...
great. The more exposure Linux and Open Source gets, the better. PalmSource is a reputable company who understands the benefits of not reinventing the wheel.
how does this affect opie qtopia and gpe. man. I wonder if it will work on ipaqs now (cautiously optimistic)
The war with islam is a war on the beast
The war on terror is a war for peace
Wait, will this be a linux window manager/(desk|palm)top environment, like GNOME, and KDE, or will it be a distribution of linux?
got sig?
Two questions on the tip of my tongue were answered outright and the section gives good perspective on the angle company is taking. From the article:
My suggestion: scroll down for the good stuff. It's at the bottom of the article.
Of blankness, I know nothing.
Does anybody even buy palmtop computers anymore? For about ten minutes, every executive wanted one to replace their paper-based Franklin Daytimer, but now it seems that everybody uses their cell phones to do 90% of what they actually used their Palm computers for (address book & schedule reminders), and everybody just brings yellow legal pads to meetings when they want to pretend that they are taking notes and paying attention.
It's been about three years since I've seen anybody take notes on a palmtop in a meeting, and if somebody did they would probably be laughed at.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
The only thing consistent about buying a Chinese company is that your corporate software assets will be on sale somewhere in Mainland cheap the day you open up your source code control to the remote company. Their IP laws are few and inconsistently enforced.
Good luck.
does it run WinCE?
Can they do all this without linking or modifying the underlying kernel Linux? I assume that they have carefully considered the implications of the GPL. This project sounds cool, but I think I would have chosen something like NetBSD & its less restrictive BSD license.
Think global, act loco
Huh. Guess that whole "PalmOS 6.0" thing didn't work out quite as well as they'd hoped.
The Curse of Be continues.
News for Nerds. Stuff that Matters? Like hell.
" Linux is a trademark owned by William R. Della Croce, an individual, and previously owned by Linus Torvalds, the originator of the GNU code of the same name." wrong! The Linux Trademark suit (1996-1997) Though this has been tried again in other countries, the definitive case over the trademark on "Linux" happenned after an individual named William R Della Croce, Jr of Massachussets fraudulently trademarked the name "Linux", claiming he had made the first use of the name in 1994. Nobody noticed until he sent threatening letters to WGS of Aurora, CO (Linux Mall), Yggdrasil of San Jose, CA (first maker of a Linux distribution on CD) and others. The Linux community provided ample evidence that this was not true. The resulting lawsuit was settled with the trademark being assigned to Linus Torvalds. Right!
The OS is fine for a PDA as it is. What about hardware improvements? Every Palm I have purchased since the Palm Pro has been heading in the direction of crap. My Tungsten T3 isn't nearly as robust as my T2 was.
It's been about three years since I've seen anybody take notes on a palmtop in a meeting, and if somebody did they would probably be laughed at.
Three years ago, I was using pen and paper and laughing at people struggling to write on a tiny screen with a plastic toothpick.
Electronic note-taking is the pits - it's much easier to rip a sheet from a pad and clip it to the relevant report than it is to scroll through hundreds of files called 'minutes of meeting x', opening each one up to see what Bob thought about trading in the old copier.
Then again, my laptop is a P200MMX and my mobile phone is a Nokia 5110 with a dodgy screen. What would I know about portable technology?
Hal Spacejock: Science Fiction with Nuts
Why not provide your code under a sort of Virtual Patent Process? For some background, I am an independent software developer in the financial services industry. I use and love Open/Free source software and develop custom, often proprietary code on top of the open stack. Here is the process I engage in with my customers and the trend that I see emerging as a solid synergy and balance between the different licensing models.
Provide your product with the source code to the community *without* redistribution rights. However, make it clear that for that particular release, it will become fully redistributable after a predetermined period of time, say six months to a year. What that means is that all development, changes, enhancements, requests have to be funneled through your organization to be marketed and distributed inside your channel. However, after six months, nine months, twelve months, etc., anyone will be free to do the same thing. You can even have different periods of time for different modules or parts of your code that you consider closer to your value proposition or reflecting a longer period of advancement. People will be reluctant to adopt the code with a Virtual Patent that expires too long relative to the value they perceive it to be providing. You can keep stats to see about activity of different parts of your code in the development.
The benefit is that the community gets to use your leadership, you get their enhancements and code, but after the expiration of the "Virtual Patent", you are on equal footing. The developer proves themself inside your process to you and your organization, but then gets their code "back", plus those of you and the other developers.
In reality people will still largely channel everything through you, and you can still enforce trademark rights. This process, however, reflects a decision to work in harmony with the *natural* process that occurs with software anyway, of innovation/invention, customization, followed by commoditization if you're good and marginalization if you're not.
I'd bet everyone would love a Hairy Palm in their pocket.
Oh, wait... this is Slashdot... they already do...
500GB of disk, 5TB of transfer, $5.95/mo
Here's the short version: Dying company bought Be, still can't figure out how to write a relevant OS, decides to scrap Be and write on top of Linux.
Analysis: PalmOS is scrambling for relevancy and will soon be sidelined. Buh-bye.
Full disclosure: I am a PalmSource employee -- and I am scared shitless because I don't know Linux. HELP!
I tried for 5 years to come up with a clever sig...only to realize that I am not clever.
I believe the reason for the decline is that most people used their Handhelds for those two functions (Address book and reminders). I think that's typical of most, and why have two devices when one will suffice. As far as taking notes, most people didn't like writing in graffiti. Now execs just want the most expensive cell phone on the planet. :)
Peronsally I have scheduling on my desktop at work, and don't put my full day into my phone. Just important meetings, and reminders like "Pick up flowers for girlfriend."
I always thought that the cool gadget that was my Palm was going to make me want to organize my life. It turns out that entropy is just too hard to fight.
--J
I hate this stuff. Yet again some stupid company with a failing business model buys promising technology, squanders it, and then jumps ship. Is the problem with Palm devices really that the underpinnings of their OS are bad? If palm isn't going to use it anymore, could they at least, finally, gpl BeOS?
What we need is not new software; it's new hardware. We need a Palm that has a real serial port, real USB expansion when it's sitting on a desktop, takes real compact flash (CF) cards (not those tiny palm things,) and has the option to read off of a real screen (that takes up the whole side of the palm; not 1/2 of it.) Also, most importantly, it must take real (AA) batteries. Internal rechargables don't work for those of us who use our plams 16 hours a day. Give me that in a Palm, and I'll arrange an order of 500. Andy Out!
This this mean we're going to see Palm-compatible Linux-based PDA? Are we going to see the combination of the Palm software library and the power of Linux?
Should be very attractive if done nicely.
We laugh at people typing in notes from their yellow legal pads into their computers when we know they own a PDA (whether Palm or PocketPC).
It isn't as if people are stuck using grafitti anymore. There are great hand-writing recognition software out there for PDAs and when combined with auto-completion features, the average person can take notes as fast as on pen & paper.
And it isn't just about avoiding double-typing. The ability to do full-text search on the notes is the primary reason I keep notes in the PDA.
NOTE TO PDA MANUFACTURERS:
Please start making durable and light-weight PDAs the size of the original Palm V. Some of us prefer having a separate PDA and phone because we don't want the batteries drained on our phone and don't trust the competence of phone producers to protect our private data on a connected device.
Seriously, I've been a suppporter of palms for many years (owned several different units, currently content with treo600), and I couldnt be more thrilled with this news.
:)
Firstly, I've been eagerly anticipating Cobalt since its announcement, and have been sorely dissapointed that it has not surfaced yet.
Secondly, I'm a huge linux nut, and having my PDA running palmOS on top of linux thrills me to no end. My two favorite OSs working together (imagine being able to run Cobalt on your PC as a program to access your data that you synced, and then tie that data into things like mozilla thunderbird, rock!)
I have not done any development for Palm thus far, but I think this sort of thing will force my hand. DAMN YOU PALM. YOU ARE GOING TO TAKE MY MONEY FROM ME AGAIN!!!
(P.S. I cant wait for my Treo, or a similar device, to run this
"I have great faith in fools: Self confidence my friends call it." ~Edgar Allan Poe
Actually, I wrote it in HTML but somewhere in the post-to-the-corporate-website process it popped out in pdf; hmmm, the mysteries of corporate IT :) However glad that we got the text version linked back in here.
mwk
can be done with tealscript, readily available at commercial palm sites.
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
Yes. ::raises hand::
For about ten minutes, every executive wanted one to replace their paper-based Franklin Daytimer, but now it seems that everybody uses their cell phones to do 90% of what they actually used their Palm computers for (address book & schedule reminders), and everybody just brings yellow legal pads to meetings when they want to pretend that they are taking notes and paying attention.
Integrating phone functionality with PalmOS is a priority at PalmOne. Handspring made the (possibly ill-conceived) announcement that it would "only be developing communicators" (PDA+phone devices) shortly before being absorbed by PalmOne. The Treo 650 is widely regarded as being a good device, though I've heard some rumors about poor voice quality.
For me, the holy grail would be decent voice control, a Bluetooth headset, and still no buttons/keypad on the device so it can have more screen area.
It's been about three years since I've seen anybody take notes on a palmtop in a meeting, and if somebody did they would probably be laughed at.
I take notes at meetings using one all the time. Nobody laughs... ;-)
No current phone except the Treo has the horsepower (CPU+memory) of a decent PDA. I'm actually ambivalent about adding phone functionality due to the additional battery drain. I guess the alternative is vastly improved battery technology. For me, the beauty of a PDA is having a computer with me constantly - which translates into an infallible memory plus lots of powerful and entertaining capabilities.
Galileo: "The Earth revolves around the Sun!"
Score: -1 100% Flamebait
... can you please explain to me when Palm is going to get Microsoft to fix the horrible synching issues with Outlook? It takes simply forever to do, and didn't start happening till the Outlook XP "security update".
I know it was due to that patch and the "Allow access for 2 minutes" problem, but this is just downright ridiculous waiting for 2 minutes or more for the thing to either barely work or timeout.
It would seem to me that switching to Linux isn't going to solve the problems of those of us that buy Palms for use with MS software.
In the project that I'm on, I've pushed for (and successfully gotten) Palms used for interfacing to the electronics in the project. They're far, far more useful than laptops for simple interfacing stuff (anything that can be interfaced with RS232, or nowadays USB). Cheaper, more rugged, much more visible in sunlight, and more importantly, far easier to use. Ever try typing on a keyboard in sub-freezing weather with high winds? Uck.
(On a side bad note, do try to keep Palms slightly in the shade. The screens tend to darken significantly with heat from direct sunlight).
Palms have been used for
and lots, lots more. To be honest, part of the reason that I bought a Palm for my own personal use is that I wanted to support them. A cheap PocketPC device is $150. A cheap Palm is under $100.
Plus, really, who wants to program for a Windows device? Palm even has a Linux programming chain, and a Linux simulator for Palm OS.
It's hard to develop handheld applications under Linux because most development tools and emulators only support Windows. Palm's switch to Linux will make Palm development a little easier for us Linux users.
I think the Palm application style -- no files, no overlapping windows -- would work great on the PC.
Now that sharp is gone, I will buy.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Perhaps this will help in extending hardware support for Palm. Wouldn't it be technically possible to run it as an OS on a small laptop? Like Microsoft's use of .net mobile, the Palm OS could run on anything from a watch to something like the NetBook from Psion. This is a great move, and I'd love to see if I could get it running as a VM on my PowerBook.
that Microsoft have any interest at all in fixing it? ;-)
Palm is nearing the end of the line.
I'm unfortunate enough to own a T2, and I can tell you it's the last PALM device I'll ever own.
Let's see, sync problems on 80% of my sync attempts, freezes and there's the whole "We're not going to let anyone develop a wireless card for it because it would eat into sales of the more expensive models" mess which REALLY pissed me off.
I hate to say it, but I'll probably get a Windows powered or Blackberry device for my next hand held. Heaven knows I won't get a Palm.
"Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA
The problem with Cobalt right now it's the chicken-and-egg syndrome. PalmOne isn't gonna standardize on Cobalt unless there are enough apps on there, developers aren't gonna port to Cobalt unless there are enough Cobalt devices in the market. I don't see how using Linux as the kernel can change that.
And how a Linux kernel gonna benefit Cobalt? I don't see any tangible benefit unless there's any inherit design limitation in Cobalt's kernel. The only possible benefit of using Linux as Cobalt's kernel would be that PalmSource might be able to leaverage the open source model for driver development (driver development is traditionally the responsiblity of Palm OS licensees, AFAIK). The whole WiFi driver mess with Palm OS 5 is a pretty good indication that it does need a better strategy/design. I only imagine how monolithic the Palm OS 5 kernel is if they took so long to develop WiFi drivers and they had to do a specific version of the driver for each hardware model and WiFi card.
It still doesn't change the fact that Cobalt is an entirely new API and no developers are willing to develop for it unless its widely adopted, otherwise they'll just continue to developer Garnet (OS 5) apps since they'll run in Cobalt anyways. I always think that PalmSource should provide a Cobalt compatibility layer for Garnet, similiar to how Win95's "thunking" feature that made majority of the Win32 API calls available on Win95. That way, Cobalt apps can run unchanged on Garnet, and developers can just standardized on the new Cobalt API instead of dealing with 2 parallel platforms.
If PalmSource were serious about open source, what I think they should do is open source the Palm Desktop and do it right now, and promote it heavily as the free alternative to Outlook. Make it their mission to compete with Outlook, with the help of the open source community. It'll save development cost, generate publicity, attract people to the Palm OS platform (like what iTunes Windows does for iPod), and all without the risk of open sourceing their more precious proprietary code (like the Palm OS itself).
I love Palm OS, but there's not a single day I don't think about switching to the dark side. It's the 21st century and it still doesn't have memory protection and preemptive multitasking. PalmSource need to commit to a single API and push it. The longer they promote 2 different APIs parallelly, the longer this chicken-and-egg syndrome will last, while the competitions move full-speed ahead without the baggage of legacy support. Supporting yet another kernel when they can't even commit to an API is just addding to the problem.
Transmeta CPUs also do very poorly in Europe, guess what, they don't even sell them!
I once wrote an email to Transmeta, asking them to *offer* their mainboards+CPU for sale in Europe. The answer said that they can't do anything about it; if their resellers don't offer it, so they must be at fault.
Nothing here about moving your ass to create revenue for your company.
WTF???
Here's the killer specs:
...)
Type O (replacement for paper organizer)
O1. size of original Palm V
O2. bundle 3rd-party hand-recognition and
text auto-completion software
O3. improved built-in calendar/contacts/memo apps
O4. more font sizes and easier-to-read
O5. optional: (simple voice recorder that doesn't
require both hands) - if this doesn't kill size
Type C (text-based communicator)
C1. near real-time email with user-configurable
polling time (every 1 - n minutes)
C2. instant messaging (aol, msn, yahoo,
C3. easy googling & copying web text into
the database of your choice (should be
just 1-2 taps in the browser after setup)
Type E (everything: O, C, + entertainment)
E1. brighter screen, more vivid colors
E2. form-factor that helps gaming
E3. headphone jack and MP3 player
E4. faster processor
E5. built-in camera, video-recorder, kitchen sink
Get a clue: don't provide features if the cost in
weight/size/battery-life/price make the entire
device undesirable.
I want a type O+C. But I'll buy a plain type O if the type C features make the device too bulky.
So Linux apps that call the Palm GUI API will work. And the phones have such little memory that they rely on SD Flash cards, a cross-platform standard, and on network connections like WCDMA, via cross-platform standards like TCP/IP and HTTP. Now it's essential to split apps into presentation/logic/data components, with distinct APIs between them. Those apps can be ported among a huge range of platforms, from phones to supercomputers. If packaged properly, these components can interoperate outside their original apps, for remixed featuresets. Take that, Windows!
--
make install -not war
I've been developing PalmOS applications for about 3 years now, and our whole software team is eager to finally see Cobalt devices because PalmOS 3/4/5 simply is not what a modern OS should be, talking about features like i18n and system design.
;)
I've been using Linux for 6 years, and I think it's a great operating system (not the best for PCs available, as that's obviously MacOS X) and I'm eager to see Linux-powered devices so I can port my favourite software to the device.
So, I'm not yet sure what Cobalt+Linux bring us, but I think it's a great opportunity for device manufacturers to get the Palm users and their software AND the Linux users and their software, making up a bit of the gap between PocketPC/.net application availability.
And of course I don't like PocketPC/.net stuff
Over the years, I've bought a few PDA's, but they've never lived up to their hype for me. Their usefulness was limited for a variety of reasons.
What I want is the holy grail. The single device that I can use for everything. MP3's, PDA, Cell Phone, Digital Camera, etc...
HP has a few nice units coming out that are almost there, but they're missing the crucial part: A hard drive ala iPod.
Give me a PDA with wireless (802.11 + Cell/3G wireless), bluetooth, 10-40GB hard drive (hell, i'd even settle for the 4GB iPod mini hard drive at this juncture), 128MB+ memory, fast processor (200Mhz+), 1.3MP Digital Camera or better (with flash!), sliding minikeyboard that slides over a larger display (kind of like a cross between the Clie NZ90 and the Treo or Zaurus)...
Then make it convenient to carry and use. Obviously you're not going to get all those features into an ultra compact form factor, but something the size of an NZ90 should be doable.
The big problem, of course, is power. That sucker will eat batteries like they're potato chips. So, there needs to be a big, high power battery, and the ability to swap batteries easily without disturbing the applications.
I don't care what it costs. I'd pay it.
If you need web hosting, you could do worse than here
This would have been great news, had Palm announced this a year or two ago when they weren't already far behind in the PDA curve.
But instead, PalmOS Colbalt devices are still vaporware*, and we're still using PDAs with ancient OS designs that lack multithreading, decent network stacks, and outdated APIs that are compiled for a CPU no one even uses in their PDAs anymore.
And now, to further cloud the situation, they're diverting their apparently already limited resources to start up yet another project: PalmOS on Linux. Wow, sounds great. Gimme a Tungsten C with Linux any day.
I just hope you release it sometime this century.
* Yes, yes, we know PalmOS Cobalt exists somewhere, but it doesn't exist where it counts: the market.
While I myself loved my Sharp Zaurus for the mobile powerhouse it was, I never could get used to its clunky interface. Even swapping out the OEM stuff for OpenZaurus and XFree, I always ended up carrying around a cheap Palm Zire for all of my PIM needs.
A few of us may have a pretty good working knowledge of Linux, but a lot of end users trying to adopt these devices aren't looking for something that will require them to have that knowledge on-hand at all times. Unfortunately, a lot of open source developers lack the skill needed to make their software efficient in the aesthetic sense. The software may work extremely well, but the interface usually leaves much to be desired.
If Palm is indeed planning to adopt Linux into future versions of Palm OS, it could be the one thing needed to finally change this problem for the better. Palm could even offer training courses on how to develop software interfaces to best suit the user's needs. And as cliché as it sounds, take a look at what Mac OS X has done for the BSD community.
I'm not suggesting that linux developers dumb down their software, but, I am suggesting they get more creative with how their software communicates with the user. By adopting Palm OS interface design principles, mobile linux developers could gain much of the discipline needed to give Linux a fighting chance in the mobile arena.
8==8 Bones 8==8
Even with all the existing GPL-software for Palm devices on Linux, Palm doesn't include it on the CD-ROM they ship with the devices, they don't list Linux as supported operating system and needless to say, they will tell you to go away when you have a problem synching with Linux.
It's the actions that count, not the words.
Hi,
I think that years ago, AmigaOS tried the cool-OS-on-top-of-linux...
It did not help them much...
Farewell, palmOS...
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
As a developer of both PalmOS (5.x) and Linux apps (and Windows apps, too), here's how my work can best be delivered to users of this system:
- GNU toolchain that compiles single projects of source files for the Palm/Linux distro OR straight Linux
- Gtk/Qt2Protein API map, as a gcc preprocessor for initial porting
- A tiny Palm/Linux object DB, so GUI/logic/data components can be remixed into new apps with a minimum of API glue (or scripts)
This is a really exciting development. If IBM had included DOS as a mode in S/390 mainframes in 1980, the available programmers and programs would have multiplied. We'd not only have gotten years ahead, but the rate of growth would have been accelerated. The PC would have replaced the mainframe for most apps, except massive batches and other processing suited to a climate-controlled office. I can't wait for PCs to become an artifact solely of the geek office, with "phones" the standard infotool for everyone else, all integrated over the wireless Internet. Thanks again, Palm!
--
make install -not war
I forgot the tags and more importantly forgot to mention where some of the text was taken from. This is how it should have looked:
" Linux is a trademark owned by William R. Della Croce, an individual, and previously owned by Linus Torvalds, the originator of the GNU code of the same name."
wrong!
"The Linux Trademark suit (1996-1997) Though this has been tried again in other countries, the definitive case over the trademark on "Linux" happenned after an individual named William R Della Croce, Jr of Massachussets fraudulently trademarked the name "Linux", claiming he had made the first use of the name in 1994. Nobody noticed until he sent threatening letters to WGS of Aurora, CO (Linux Mall), Yggdrasil of San Jose, CA (first maker of a Linux distribution on CD) and others. The Linux community provided ample evidence that this was not true. The resulting lawsuit was settled with the trademark being assigned to Linus Torvalds."
from: http://www.linux10.org/history/
Right!
As a past developer of Palm IIIx software (who gave up because of the clumsy 32k limit with gcc binaries and the weird PalmOS API), I am looking for these things to make me buy another PDA for development. (My past 3 PDAs, including the Palm IIIx and an Agenda, are all gathering dust because they were not developer-friendly.)
1. Must have good sync to linux desktop.
2. Must have libraries for gcc cross-compilation/linking on the desktop.
3. Must have a well-documented rational API to the OS which is not too weird. If the underlying kernel is linux but the API is PalmOS, then what's the point in changing?
In fact, the PalmOS API is not too awful, and the documentation was not at all bad. But the VMS-style record-oriented files (laughingly called "databases") were too weird for me. Real unix-style unstructured byte-sequence files are best. For database, some sort of SQL would be best.
The main purpose of having linux on the PDA would be to give the developer the ability to write one set of code to run on both the PDA and desktop. I was not able to do this for the PalmOS API.
I have a whole shiatload of stuff on there. Sure, phones are great, but can I take a note of someone's phone number or look up another phone number whilst I'm on the phone?
I've got maps of the London underground on there, task details including start times, notes, whatever. I've got all sorts of snippets which means I can go from site to site and not have a laptop on a client's desk (looks v.bad).
For time management, I'd much rather use a Palm than a phone or notebook.
Phones are not bad if basically your contacts are social ones. For business contacts where I want the details, notes and all that, spending out $200 on a Palm every few years is not a big expense.
I have a sharp zaurus which has kde apps. Definitly now 1 gig of ram. Also, I have ran all of the kdes versions on 128M and most on 64M and they have been smooth.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
I've used a WinCE machine, and absolutely loathed the way it operated for getting the information I needed RIGHT NOW! Palm machines just work much better for me.
Sure, phones are great, but can I take a note of someone's phone number or look up another phone number whilst I'm on the phone?
Yes, if you buy a good phone. They also have room to store e-mail addresses, alternate numbers, details, appointments, etc.
But spending $200 on a Palm means you can save $100 by buying a cheap-ass phone. Good thinking!
Where's the Blackberry_OS.tar.gz?! Still waiting here...
I heard it's going to be compatible with OSX pretty soon. A step in the right direction. But I don't like using the Windows partition for anything if I can avoid it.
I love the Blackberry. I hate the incompatable OS.
What the hell was I supposed to be doing? I was going to do something, and now I'm on
Whine, whine, whine.
Hmmm...
;) ).
If I recall correctly, PalmSource bought the BeOS sourcecode after it had failed in the marketplace.
Everyone expected PalmSource to use the BeOS code as a basis to built another mobile OS on.
Now that PalmSource has announced that they would be running future versions of PalmOS on top of Linux, that previous plan has apparently been axed.
Well, in that case I do have a great proposal for PalmSource if they if they are prepared to give something back to the Open Source community: by releasing the BeOS sourcecode under the GPL or any another acceptable OSI-compliant license.
I'll tell you this, mwk88: if PalmSource were to release the BeOS sourcecode, they would create a tremendous amount of goodwill throughout the entire OSS/FS community, even among many of us that do't use BeOS. And with that, you'd be attracting many talented volunteers who are prepared to help customize and optimize Linux for PalmOS. I can't think of any other use that PalmSource would have for BeOS, now that they're switching to a Linux-based platform.
Please do this, PalmSource. If you do, I'm sure you'll become the next cool open-source friendly company idolized on Slashdot (sorry, Novell
"Oooh, does that mean we get to kick some puffy white mad zionist butt?"
Any device that perfoms all of those functions will perform them poorly. An MP3 player needs to be small and lightweight, while a PDA needs a relatively large rectangular surface for a screen, while a phone needs to be vaguely phone-shaped to reach from your ear to your mouth. The usage patterns for these classes of devices are different, and you can bet that if the phone companies are involved, you will have to pay a fee for just about everything (You can forget about surfing for free over your own wireless link). Also - this would put all of your eggs in one basket. If you dropped your 'Holy Grail' device while jogging with it, there goes your phone and PDA as well.
A pox on digital convergence! Any device that does everything would have to compromise so much it would be pretty much useless. Too big for an MP3 player, too small for a PDA, an awkward camera and the wrong shape for a phone. The key is not a 'Holy Grail' device, but individual ones that perform their own functions very well, and can communicate and integrate with each other. (Kind of like the modular Unix philosophy vs the monolithic Windows one)
Modular design
The original graffiti was better. Once learned, you can write in it significantly faster. G2 drives me absolutley nuts.
It's worth noting that there are a number of open source software products that run on top of PalmOS. See my Suggestions for PalmOS PDA Users, freshmeat.net's list for the PalmOS Operating System category, and http://www.palmopensource.com.
- David A. Wheeler (see my Secure Programming HOWTO)
Just have a look in the PDF Info...
My wife has a Nintendo DS, and I was flipping through the specs on it the other day. Its is AMAZING!!!! for $150 she got a piece of hardware with 2 screens, 1 of which is a touch screen, 2 ARM CPUs (a 7 and a 9, IIRC), and 802.11 wireless. Sure it is great for games, but that thing could also double as a PDA, given the right software package. So, would there be any way Palm could sell a DS "game" cartridge with, say, PalmOS, a couple apps, and a few MBs of storage? No need for a USB connection, as the wireless could transfer data to/from a PC. And the hardware is there already, and should probably be compatible (I assume some PDAs use ARM cpus?)... so please, do this! My wife has always been interested in PDAs, but they are too expensive as a stand-alone for what they do (at least to us). Imagine reaching out to a bunch of people that will have the Nintendo DS over the next few years... :)
William George
Apple would have a vacume to fill. I think this is what they are waiting for. Steve Jobs recently said that Apple developed a PDA recently but decided at the last minute not to ship it.
I love iSync, iCal, AddressBook, Mail and Safari. Give me OSX on a small tablet and I'll be a happy camper.
The BlackBerry 7100 does all that and it's also a nice phone. Vodafone sells a version for their network. I have the T-Mobile version in the U.S.
While not a full PDA in the sense of a PalmOS or WinCE device that can run hundreds or thousands of different applications, it has very good organizer applications. Calendar with different views, time zone awareness, reminders, recurrence, private bit (for syncing I guess), and a note field for each event. Task list with Status and Priority fields, time zone awareness, reminders, user configurable categories and a note field for each task. Memo pad with user configurable categories. Address book fields include title, name, multiple e-mail addresses, company name, job title, two work numbers, two home numbers, mobile number, pager number, fax number, other number, PIN (BlackBerry address), work street/mail address, home street/mail address, category, web page, 4 user-customizable fields and a note field. It also has a calculator and an alarm clock.
It has a web browser to get access to maps and such. You can save web pages and images to memory for later reference. And it has a compressed QWERTY keyboard (two letters on most keys etc.) with a very good predictive text capability.
You can go through a web page and set it up to download (IMAP or POP) and push your e-mail to the BlackBerry. You can even read document attachments! Sadly T-Mobile filters attached images but of course you can freely download images off the web so someone could e-mail you a link if desired.
If your employer has a BlackBerry Enterprise Server they can push your corporate e-mail to you. And of course you can also send e-mail through the same channel, whether corporate or personal. You can even have both your personal and corporate accounts on the same device, if you want - and if your employer allows that sort of thing.
fnord.
The drawbacks with this is that on my Palm I was able to adjust sounds and alarms much better than on the CE device. On the CE there are only two volumes, and if I turn down the volume to avoid annoying my close vicinity while playing games I also turn off the sound for alerts in my calendar and other notifications. Most annoying.
On the positive side is that the CE device comes with a fairly decent GSM/GPRS phone. This means that I can keep down the number of devices in my pockets.
Anyway, what I really want is a device that is a phone that can take two SIM cards (Work and Private), monitoring both and at the same time be a PDA. Since I'm running around with the PDA and phone in my shirt pocket I would appreciate if the PDA actually was equipped with a detachable handsfree "handset" on the top section using bluetooth, since I'm not fond of running around with an oversized hearing aid all the time.
If the device also would be running Linux it would be really nice.
It's probably too much to hope for that anybody designing PDA-Phones will read this, but what the heck...
One slight annyance is that now is the QTEK 9090 available, which has a keyboard, built-in WLAN and is quad-band. If it only came with Linux!
The QTEK 2020 is identical to the O2 Xda II, and is actually manufactured by the same company in china that also manufactures a lot of other PDA:s with Windows CE.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
Today, Palm Source has issued a critical patch that fixes a problem with the Linux Core of the ever popular Treo 700. A buffer overflow within the command "ps" allowed a group of people to remotely take over Sprint PCS's 3g Vision Services replacing all the smiling faces on pictures with ones containing gotee's and mustaches. While the investigation continues, authorities note that the pictures of their kids having mustaches was wholly inappropriate.
According to an anonymous note left in the comments on a popular geek... err techy news source, work was also underway to modify the existing DRM platform in Palm Source's Software layer to allow for playing of DVD's on the Treo line of products.
HTML versions are posted on this page:
www.palmsource.com/announcement
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I disagree. Some MP3 players need to be small and lightweight, but that depends entirely upon need. I don't need it to be, I need it to carry my song library around with me. That's why iPod's are so popular, despite them not being all that small and lightweight.
Because of the bluetooth, the phone need not be phone shaped either, it need only use a bluetooth headset, or even a wired one for that matter. Not a big deal. It can have a 'brick' form factor.
I don't consider any of your arguments to be valid for a user like myself. I don't *WANT* a small light mp3 player. I don't *WANT* anything phone shaped. And honestly, my Clie NZ90 worked great as a camera, wasn't awkward at all. I want something I can bolt on my hip and use as needed.
I don't want multiple devices. Too much stuff to keep track of, too much stuff to carry. Too many different devices to maintain (each with different battery lives, charging stations, PC connections, etc..)
Now, I'll grant you that phone companies will try to screw you.. maybe.. at least Verizon is doing the right thing with their 3G network, giving you unlimited surfing for a fixed price.
Digital convergence is the only way this technology will become truly useful. Otherwise, it's just too much work.
If you need web hosting, you could do worse than here
You have just killed the PalmOS. Why would I want to use a Linux based device, I can do what i want with Windows CE and can change Windows CE as I see fit and I dont have to listen to the rhetoric or be pulled into the zealotrous crap that plagues the Linux platform. Dell PcketPC here I come.
I kicked our web guys and told them to make sure that they always post HTML versions in addition to PDF's.
h tml
r .html
l
They have updated our pages on the announcement:
http://www.palmsource.com/press/cms_announcement.
Linux Letter:
http://www.palmsource.com/announcement/linuxlette
General FAQ:
http://www.palmsource.com/announcement/cmsfaq.htm
Yes - I am a PalmSource employee....
The Zaurus was pretty much a killer PDA, but it was competing against Palm and WinCE and while it's rather easy to port apps to it, most of the major players didn't want to bother with yet another platform- even if the platform brought more power than either of the other two at the price point it was offered at.
Combine this with a higher entry price than most of the other PDA OS offerings and poor availability for the things (BestBuy carried them for a while, but Fry's was really the only place other than online to get them...), well, you get the idea.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Comment removed based on user account deletion
In the battle against Microsoft the fact that everyone and his mother is moving to Eclipse is not mentioned often. Yesterday there was a story that TI is jumping on the bandwagon for SC development. Eclipse runs on ALL platforms.
Help fight continental drift.
Won't happen. You'll never see PalmOS on DS. You will see a couple different PDA packages. Which will have some notepads, calendar, etc. But it won't allow the user to install additional software. There may or maynot be a version with onboard flash. (The memory cards for DS can support a large amount of both ROM and Flash memory).
I bought my Sony Clie PEG-TJ35 with 200mhz ARM9 cpu, high res color display (360x360), 32Mb ram, and a sony memory stick pro slot for $150. I'm sure if you look around for last year's pdas you'll find something even better than I got for the same price. Theoretically the Clie can run linux, and it has a very good battery life. But nobody has bothered porting linux to it. (not surprisingly, it makes a better PalmOS device than a Linux workstation)
Also two screens aren't a big deal. they are only 256x192 pixels. Two screens at that resolution is still less than a 360x360 disply on a decent PDA. (98304 pixels versus 129600 pixels). Although dual 256x192 is techincally more than 320x240 (76800 pixels).
Of course resolution isn't everything and having the massive area of two screens in a compact device is pretty interesting. It would make multi application situations more interesting, like being able to view the calendar while writing a memo/email. Or view the phone book while you're sending an instant message. It's technically doable on a single high res screen, but then you have to have an itty bitty high res font.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Get an device with G1 installed, use something like Filez to get the Graffeti.prc and pdbs out, load into new device. I used my Tungsten, and got my Treo600 using G1, not encountered any problems with it. (search for better instructions than my wafflings).
Waiting for an amusing sig.
I bet the Nintendo DS is sold at a loss, and Nintendo makes the profits from games. Thus, they'd probably deny the license to product such an application, because people would buy DS's just to be PDA's and not for games, costing them money.
Either that or they'd sell the PDA cart at an outrageous price to make up the loss.
-Z
Hey what a great idea..! Now if you can actually get a vendor to MAKE an OS6 device THEN I'll be impressed.
I'm sorry.. but Cobalt has been out for HOW long with no devices? Not even one from PalmOne? That's bad.
Polymorphism -- It's what you make of it.
Well, you did.
It's been about three years since I've seen anybody take notes on a palmtop in a meeting, and if somebody did they would probably be laughed at.
I just have to laugh when I read stuff like this. People have made snide comments to me about my persistant use of a PDA, but they don't laugh when I'm able to pull up important information because I'm using a device with a SEARCHABLE DATABASE while they stumble through piles of Post-It Notes and other paper debris. One co-worker used to make fun of me, touting the superiority and speed of his paper planner, until recently when I was able to quickly find the contact info of a client, whose name none of us could remember, based on a job site location only. I could describe the dozens of uses I have for my Palm OS device, but since being a Luddite is the latest fad of the Slashdot crowd, why bother?
If you don't need a PDA, fine, but I've found mine to be an extremely useful asset to my life.
-G
www.pixelstatic.com
Yeah, the PDA you list would be a great buy. The thing is, my wife mostly wants one so she can surf the 'net around the house or at a wi-fi hotspot - and unfortunately its a bit more for the wireless PDAs (last time I checked) :( I guess even a simple web browser for the DS would do most of what she wants - maybe somebody design make one... (crossing fingers)
William George
I think some Palm OS architecture/history is in order here. Porting Palm OS to Linux will not be a revolutionary step for PalmSource, because Palm OS (at least until version 5 and 6) does not encompass an OS kernel. Palm OS through version 4 ran on the Kadak AMX kernel, and part of the reason it was so limited (no multitasking or threading) was due to license agreements with Kadak. In Palm OS 5, (then) Palm, Inc. ported their OS piece to ARM devices, and started exposing new multithreading APIs available in the kernel (whether the 5.x kernel is AMX or another is unclear to me; Palm has rarely acknowledged it ever used AMX in the first place). In fact, one of the major features of PalmSource's "Protein" APIs is to allow maximum portability of Palm OS applications, regardless of device underpinnings. Ultimately, though it will take a lot of work for PalmSource's programmers, porting Palm OS to run on the Linux kernel should not be terribly hard, because its architecture is designed to be relatively kernel-independent.
Now, for my opinions:
Palm should have based Palm OS 5 (which PalmSource now calls Garnet) on the Linux kernel, and immediately started exposing Linux features through their API layer. The mess that OS 5/Garnet has turned out to be is just sad. And though OS 6 (Cobalt) has some nice screenshots, no Cobalt devices exist, even after it has been available for a year. Palm OS still has neither full multitasking nor a true filesystem. PalmSource's latest stab at a filesystem, NVFS, has caused their only important licensee, PalmOne, no end of embarrassment, and has rendered the Tungsten T5 and Treo 650 almost useless for many consumers. While Palm/Source/One insisted for many years devices like these didn't need advanced features like filesystems and multitasking, in reality they are needed for the applications people want.
And speaking of applications, it is, relatively speaking, difficult to write Palm OS applications. The Windows CE/Mobile (or whatever they're calling it this week) API is a subset of Win32. Writing for QTopia or another Linux-based PDA platform is not unlike writing a normal Linux app. Even writing J2ME apps isn't terribly hard, though the API is limited. Writing Palm OS apps is weird, and confusing. PalmSource has helped a little by making Eclipse their preferred IDE, but Palm apps still work like nothing else, and you can forget porting code between platforms. Thus, there is an advantage to using Linux as the new kernel, since one would hope you would be able to port existing Linux-based code to the new platform, and make calls to it from the Palm OS API layer. This assumes PalmSource doesn't mess things up like they did with NVFS.
Ultimately, however, I believe this move by PalmSource is too little, too late. Had this move been made with OS 5, they could have had something. Now that there are no devices or apps for the current Palm OS version, and the first pieces of Linux won't show up until the next version (OS 7?), I believe device makers and app developers will have lost all interest in the Palm OS platform by the time Palm OS for Linux sees the light of day. Windows Mobile and Symbian will take over the majority of the smartphone market, while a small number of phones and PDAs will use Linux. Meanwhile, the Linux on HP/Dell/etc. PocketPC movement will become stronger, since those devices will be readily available, and there will be a small dedicated core of people to write great software for it (case in point: Opie).
--Mythos
PalmOS 3.5 - System 7.6
They even look about the same. Both run on 68k CPUs.
PalmOS 4 - Mac OS 8
More stable, better-looking, but more of the same.
PalmOS 6 - "Copland"
Advanced, modern, but still more or less based on the old stuff. Rebuilt to use native code for the new CPU. Never used by real people.
PalmOS 5 - MacOS 9
Popular, stable enough, hey it works. Runs a mix of code for the old and new CPU.
PalmOS 7 - MacOS 10
Hey let's buy NeXT! / Hey let's buy CMS!
And put our OS on top of BSD! / And put our OS on top of Linux!
PalmOS X!
I really believe PalmSource can pull this off. If they do, they'll have really one-upped both Symbian and Microsoft. Done right, they could be the largest phone OS producer within 5 years. Done wrong...well, they won't be around that long.
Now, in addition to Stallman calling it GNU/Linux, we'll have Mike Kelley calling it Palm/GNU/Linux.
Not everyone likes cell phones, though when you're sitting in a theatre in a paid seat, it sure seems like they do...
I don't give a hoot if palm runs under linux, though I am an enthusiastic linux user. My main concern is losing the convenience of the palm because palm the company is changing focus from the core market that gave them their start.
Thank you. We now return you to your regular program.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Hmm. As much as I would like to see Outlook get trounced, I think you're overestimating the capabilities of Palm Desktop.
Why do folks use Outlook? Because they choose to? Unlikely. They do it because the resident MCSE has bought an Exchange server and Outlook for Windows is the only product which offers full integration with it. Entourage for Mac doesn't go all the way. And I do not think that Microsoft, in trying to hock Windows CE/Mobile/Whatahfook is going to be nice and give Palm access to the proprietary Outlook IMAP/MAPI extensions.
So how, exactly, do we convince Big IT to drop Outlook in favor of Palm Desktop? I think that Palm, in order to get the Outlook issues fixed, should turn to legal solutions (this is assuming Microsoft has been less than forthcoming with the specs for Outlook and is doing so to lock Palm out, and thus violating the Consent Decree.) Specifically, nastygrams sent to One Microsoft Way, joinder in the Novell suit (if it is appropriate), or a new civil action (though suing Microsoft takes a wad of dough.)
Actually, I'm of the opinion that the Palm syncing stack needs a redo. Palm Hotsync Manager for OS X sucks and by Palm's own admission, won't even be updated anymore. The Missing Sync is the only alternative. And while I use Windows once in a blue moon (thank God), it sounds like the Windows stuff is not that up to date either. If not by complaints and summonses, this needs to be fixed, and badly.
They might well agree for a "nominal" price. People could then justify the purchase of the Nintendo as a business expense...but now that they have it, they might as well look at the games that are available...
(That's one of the ways the PC overtook the Mac. Apple was determined to shed it's image as a gamer's computer, so they intentionally made it difficult to develop good games. It worked. The gamer's bought PC's. Apple's market share sunk like a rock to 10%. [I know it's less now, it slowed at around 10% and declined gradually from there.])
People talk about price, but price wasn't usually the determining factor. A good excuse, but not the deciding factor. The business name of IBM was an important part, but so was the availability of games. And the DOS games could be played under MSWind3.1, so even Apple's first-mover advantage didn't help them enough. People lie about why they decide things. They give you plausible reasons that make them look good, but one can almost always come up with a plausible reason to justify a choice made on emotional grounds.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
I would be more interested in running Linux proper (or some other free Unix-like operating system) on my Palm (or any other palmtop hardware, for that matter). The Palm apps are mostly good, though somewhat lacking in features, but the low-level parts of the operating system are a joke.
I want memory protection, pre-emptive multi-tasking and a real file system on my Palm, not an unorganized, opaque and flat bunch of random data and apps that can't run concurrently. What's with the arbitrary limits of PDBs? The limit of 2^16 "objects" (I'm not a Palm programmer and don't know the correct term) in a PDB is causing the people who are trying to package Wikipedia great troubles.
To continue the rant, I recently got the WLAN SDIO card for the T3, and the drivers and supplied software are the worst I have ever encountered. (And that after what, two years, of development?)
Some issues:
I won't mention the bug (documented all over the web, but ignored by Palm) forcing me to reinstall all my software twice before it would even resolve hostnames.
I'm sick and tired of these excuses for operating systems we have to deal with on palmtops, and the T3 will probably be the last Palm I ever buy. Not that Pocket PC / Windows CE / whatever it's called this week seems any better, and Linux for the Pocket PC-style palmtops never seems to run on the latest devices.
If it was only possible to buy a Zaurus with built-in IEEE 802.11b and Bluetooth in Europe without hazzles...
Sorry about the rant!
Blog Ho
You forgot Bluetooth. So you can carry a separate cell phone, and yet have internet access anywhere. Not that it's useful, but it's good to know you can. And this way, you don't lock anybody into a particular provider (EVDO, GPRS, etc).
You forgot Poland!
Oh, never mind...
This sounds odd. Why would you want to run an OS on top of another OS ? Just port the Palm userland to Linux and be done with it.
If all I want is daytimer and alarms with a phone list, then Palm is the cat's meow. I have no need for a palm device that needs a 2amp power supply (had to find a replacement recharger for a friend's Ipaq this weekend... 5V,2000mA!).
On the other hand, people who want to do heavy lifting but still have access to palm type applications will love this symbiosis. All palm has to do next is make Grafitti 1 available as an option again and we'll be flying. (for my part, I hate tiny keyboard windows).
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
Yeah, if a product is too good, no-one will upgrade. Novell did such a good job with NW3.x that it almost bankrupted them.
No good deed goes unpunished.
Eclipse runs on ALL platforms.
Uhh, I certainly wouldn't say that. Eclipse doesn't run on the platform I use at home for general computing and development- Windows CE 4.x.
Aaron
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
My wishlist is short and pretty obvious. I would like to have a supported method of syncing my Palm to my Linux desktop. Yes, I know about KPilot and JPilot. I want a Palm desktop running under Linux that I can sync with that is officially supported.
The second item is a supported development environment under Linux. I'd love to develop PalmOS apps from my Linux desktop. At a minimum, I need a tool chain to compile them. Yeah, I know it exists. It isn't the easiest thing in the world to set up. Ideally, I want an emulator to test them with. With that, there are some Palm apps that I might run on my Linux desktop anyway.
The net will not be what we demand, but what we make it. Build it well.
Really, thank you for your efforts on the behalf of the Palm community. Surely it's a labor of love because you get no money, no free gadgets and no help from the manufacturer who has not been any friend at all to the open-source community. Your efforts are unacknowledged and unappeciated by the company for whom you are an unpaid developer.
- some-dumb names-for-our-current-ones. This is as asinine as similar naming schemes for development kit Apple used to push. And PalmSource and PalmOne? Maybe I need to just wait and do business with PalmTwo and see if they get it right. And how about moving from the T3 to the T5? Did I fall asleep and miss the T4? It's like their marketing people are taking crazy pills.
It's far easier for me to be a fan of your work than to feel all chummy about Palm just now.
This parade of troubled companies racing to embrace open-source like it's some tired old whore that's good for a quickie has lost some of its charm over the years. And these death-bed conversions to The One True Faith are somehow lacking in sincerity. When they didn't need us, we could just go to hell or be forced to shell out money to buy and use Windows/Mac licenses just to run their devices when all they had to do was to release some programming and hardware details to the open-source community on how to do things like synching. But, no, what a foolish nasty idea that would be. And, apparently, still is.
They should open-source the beloved BeOS code and provide hardware info and at least some elementary code examples to aid open-source developers like you if they actually want to make some open-source friends.
Personally, I have two Palm devices. I'm pretty happy with my T3. Not as happy with the reports that the DIA/extended resolution area on the Palms is handled differently on every model. So I don't know how you can call what they're offering an API. I have NSBasic to write simple apps with but they can't get the slider to work properly yet because of the differing software interfaces even from new models from PalmOne. And they call this an OS? It would seem to me that letting every model use strange proprietary means to handle these functions somehow defies the very notion of Palm as an OS. If every screen is going to be treated as a hack, it's really not an OS. And it's a miracle that any games or cool apps are ever written to use the color screens. This is a problem going all the way back to the first hi-res Clie models and they still don't seem to have a working approach even at PalmOne, their own hardware developers.
Unless Palm changes its ways and makes me feel more valued as a customer and comes up with a strategy to do something other than introduce a few new buggy features into some newer Palm device and call it a major step forward, this Palm will be my last. I can only imagine the disappointment the T5 buyers must have had with thing Palm calls a filesystem. I genuinely feel badly for them, so eager to enjoy their new devices and paying top dollar and then finding a bug like that. I recall the reset bug that caused the T3's to lock down into slow mode on reset. Very discouraging to see such elementary problems leave the factory unfixed.
And what is with these names? Garnet? Cobalt? Are these names actually supposed to be better or are they just marketing-speak for we-don't-have-good-product-ideas-so-we'll-make-up
I've no doubt that U.S.S. Palm has some talented and dedicated hardware and software developers on board. But the ships' officers are loons.
The repackaged Handspring Treo phones can't keep them afloat for more than a year or so. They need a plan *now*. If they want to be friends to open-source, they need to decide *now* and start moving. We've seen Apple come back from the dead before and Palm can too. But only if someone at the company has the vision to make it happen.
The practical upshot is that I have a Palm that cannot be upgraded to Graffiti 1. I'd love to be proven wrong, but haven't seen any counterevidence so far.
Regardless, the unit's screwed up in other even worse ways. If I manually make a perfectly horizontal line in a drawing program, it runs at a 5 degree downhill slant from the left side of the screen to the right. I have to compensate by calibrating the top of the display correctly but the bottom right corner a little high, so that the ideal horizontal line and the actual horizontal line intersect somewhere in the middle of the screen. In this way, most of the widgets near the bottom of the screen are off by a little, but they're close enough that I can still use it somewhat.
What a POS. This is my fourth and final Palm. I've basically relegated it to playing solitaire, and I use a nice leather DayRunner for everything that I used to use a Palm for.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
Our legal team was up *very* late last night working on all of our announcements, and I think that one of them must have fallen asleep in the brain before in the body.
But - thanks for catching this. The trademark attribution has been fixed, and it should be going live on our site shortly.
In the name of all of us Linus fans at PalmSource, I apologize for this extremely embarrassing screwup.
Since you failed it miserably, I'd guess "0".
I was mistaken. the device has 320x320 display (102400 pixels). Basically the same number of pixels as the DS. So much for that argument.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
I would just recommend a small laptop. Apple iBook G4 12" is $1k and comes with wireless built-in, a crisp display, etc. You can get some of those tiny Vaio laptops used for $400-500.
$1k sounds like a lot, but my old iBook G3 is still my second most used electronic device, even though is slow and has a videocard useless for gaming. Just don't break an Apple, because they cost a fortune to repair. (usually costs about half to two-thirds the price of buying a better newer model apple).
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
I don't remember what the spec was on battery life when I bought my Tungsten E, but in practical terms I'm lucky to get more than a couple of hours of life out of my Palm. I use it as an Ogg player (with the highly recommended Pocket Tunes) on my commute to work, about an hour each way, and by the end of the day the battery has gone from fully charged to about 30%. I'm SOL if I don't remember to put it on the charger as soon as I get home at night.
Granted a lot of that may be the extra stress on the battery from driving the amplifier that powers the headphones, but I'd settle for replacing the batteries every day or so if it would solve the problem. In fact, if you could charge replacable batteries inside the Palm, that would be great.
As for memory, I'm OK with the SD cards my Tungsten takes. They're the same ones my camera uses, and you can get a 1 gig SD card at Newegg for $75 or so. I think I paid about that for the 256 MB card I'm using now back in February.
Someone you trust is one of us.
Could someone please point out where my thinking is flawed? As far as I can tell, this is what they're saying in the Letter to the Linux Community: "The underpinnings of Palm OS will now be Linux. No, you can't have Palm OS for free. No, you can't run without Palm OS. As required by Linux etiquette, we hereby make some general noises about maybe someday perhaps contributing a little bit to the OSS movement."
How does their use of Linux help me, if they've figured out a way to co-opt an open-sourced operating system (OS OS) while still keeping a tight grip on their proprietary software layer? This has no more interest to me as a Linux advocate than if they had said, "We will now use memory chips with the word 'Linux' scratched into the casing."
Someone please tell me I'm wrong. I've been disappointed with Palm too many times.
404555974007725459910684486621289147856453481154 in hex is "You sank my Battleship?"
[GPG key in journal]
Post-It Notes?
Oh... those yellow tabs attached to the monitors of people who can't remember their passwords!
People in your office keep their client lists on those things? Why? The computer is right there on your desk, isn't it?
For that matter, any decent phone should store all the contact information you could need.
And you're calling me a luddite!
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
As a long time Palm (since Palm III) and Linux (since RedHat 4.2) user I appreciate this development. In my opinion Palm has brought the PDA to Linux and I think it is a logical step to bring Linux on the PDA now. Please don't forget to make a Palm emulator available as a desktop application for Linux.
I have a palm m125, and it works well for ebooks, note taking, calculators, a couples games, and a few other uses, but I haven't been impressed with the next gen palms, and have wanted to get a linux handheld next. Now I get exactly what I wanted!
True genius is grasping a situation like a peice of fruit, and peircing it just right so that it drains dry.
Just download Graffiti1.zip from http://zansstuff.com/palm, read the instructions in how_to.txt carefully, and you will soon be up and running with Graffiti 1 again.
To the question "Does that mean you'll be offering your layer for sale to users?" You answered you are open to suggestions. As a developper I think It would be nice to have the palm layer available for free so we can try/code application for it on a computer. Perhaps you could release the free layer on x86 and sell it for handheld manifacturer.
Rather ironically, my wife used to own a laptop. It was a Dell she purchased early in 2003. It died, earlier this year, just a month after it left its 1 year warranty. It suffered from a surge while being plugged into its powersupply, which fried the mainboard. Repairs would have cost almost as much as a new laptop (something like $900). Even more ironically, it was later found that the power adapter on that model of Dell laptop was defective - Dell would replace the adapter, but they would not replace the laptop. All I can say is I'm never buying a Dell again. Even more ironically, I had a Toshiba back in college that suffered the exact same fate after about the same life-span. Maybe I'll just never buy a laptop again... :(
William George
I stopped buying Palm machines after my PalmPilot Professional's OS became out of date, and Palm refused to offer any kind of upgrade to OS 3.0
It's your lucky day, then - Palm released the 2 MB IR upgrade card that would not only give you IR functionality, but also equip your Professional with Flash ROMs so you can burn in a new OS (It even ships with 3.0)!!!!
Seriously - Faulting the palm of that era for not offering upgrade options is absurd. They bent over backwards to avoid orphaning anybody (You can install 3.5 into an IR Upgrade card - You could use most of the same OS and peripherals on your IIIc and your Pilot 1000... Over five years of backwards/forwards compatability. If you don't think that's an accomplishment, look at the WinCE track record.)
The Sharp Zaurus changed since then. Someone (zautrix) ported and developped KDEPIM for the zaurus. Its very powerfull and there is nothing it cant do really. Try to check at www.pi-sync.net.
I'd say flash the unit with ROMs from one of the earlier 130s. Either a polite request on a Palm board, or digging around online should get you the ROMs you need.
If you can't find them, use Romeo/Pilot-xfer or JackSprat to dig the G2 files out and replace them with G1 equivs.
Good luck!
Dear Mr. Nice PalmSource Employee,
I am a Palm application developer in my spare time. I use Palm Simulator to test my applications, so I don't frag my Tungsten C when I accidentally never return from an event loop, or what have you. I can do all of this development on Linux (by means of prc-tools) and the world is happy and full of flowers and singing birds and smiling squirrels. But to test my application, I have to be in Windows, which makes the smiling squirrels and singing birds run and be very sad.
Please, please, please, can I have Simulator on Linux? It doesn't run under Cedega or Crossover Office (though Cxoffice comes really close). To my knowledge I can't use an ARM ROM with POSE or Xpilot.
Please, think of the happy squirrels.
Sincerely,
A Palm application developer that's sick of using Windows.
-- -R
Unfortunately, the m130 doesn't have flash memory. The OS update is in a physical, non-upgradeable ROM package. Yay, Palm.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
Just a correction: The Simulator only runs on Windows, and will never run on Linux.
The PalmOS Emulator (POSE), runs on Linux, Windows, and MacOS.
The Emulator will emulate devices using anything up to, but not-including, OS5.
The Simulator will run an x86 application emulating an ARM device, for OS5 and above.
There are no plans to provide an Emulator that can model OS5 or OS6 devices at this point. Maybe this move by Palmsource will change that decision.
1. The Psion 5mx has a 36Mhz CPU, not a 416Mhz processor like the Palm T5.
2. The Psion has a 4bit grey screen. Most new palms have a true-colour display. (same # of pixels)
What you say you want in a Psion 5mx in a Palm Pilot form factor: that almost exists. Get a used (under $50 easy Handspring Visor with a compact flash adapter for it's Springboard port. It's native speed is 16Mhz - but it can be overclocked reliably to over 30Mhz. Plug in a serial adapter cable and the only thing on your list missing is the screen res.
Oh, and the Handspring can smoke that 20-30 hour mark, even when overclocked.
Why would a company bother trying to re-implement a brilliant, free kernel when they can make all their money selling higher level software and/or the hardware underneath ?
IBM have switched their business model, it seems Palm(source) are switching, Microsoft will too.
Linux has won.
Groutch.
- of course, it's been under emulation
- but jiminy crickets, i used PalmOS under Linux years ago!
"Only morons moderate based on a sig."
:)
I've thought a number of times that we should be able to moderate sigs separate from the posts. Then, sigs would not appear in meta-moderation, which would make the system more anonymous. Further, if we could do that, then we could hide sigs based on their karma *separate* from that of the posting karma.
Of course, if it was that important, I guess I could code it and submit a patch.
It's also worth noting that the friend/foe mechanism has much of this functionality. It allows people to effectively mod up/down certain posters.
I don't care what it costs. I'd pay it.
If it cost $2 million (i.e. the cost of research and development, and manufacturing of 1 unit only), would you pay it?
I take notes at meetings using one all the time. Nobody laughs... ;-)
As your fellow coworker, I thought I should finally come clean. I *don't* have african hyena syndrom like I told you the day after you started carying around the pda. My bad.
Yeah, as most others here have pointed out, that was not their fault.
But so what? Check out OpenZaurus' new Gnome Palm Embedded (GPE) environment. It uses the whole screen for Graffiti 1 type handwriting recognition. You just punch the little pencil and it starts working without taking any screen real estate. It's really fast because you don't make as many mistakes with such large characters, and that's what the stupid Xerox lawsuit tried to steal from everyone. There are significant problems with 3.5.2 or openzaurus, but graffiti 1 is working well and GPE is beautiful. I imagine their Evolution sync is first class.
Free software will soon replace Palm for me, 100%. I've been an Handspring Visor user for years and I still love the platform. I still don't have a replacement for their excellent calculator, which has constants and exponentiation up to 500 or so. I also love their datebook +. I also have to thank the Palm Source people for defeating Xerox in their greedy little grab. Still, I can see the writing on the wall. Today my Zaurus has better handwriting recognition than the Visor. As soon as I find as good a calculator and can sync my Zaurus with KDE's excellent Kontact is the day I don't need Palm Source's non free goodies. That day is very close.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
While kdepim helps in one area, it doesn't fix the rest of the Zaurus. Even with kdepim, there are still a lot more areas in which the Zaurus lacks than it doesn't. Don't get me wrong, there are some really nice apps for the Zaurus, most of them commercial or at least non-open source. NetFront and Opera come to mind, both kick-ass web browsers. Though with WM2003, which brought a much improved Pocket IE. Pocket IE is now almost on par with IE 5.5 or 6 on desktop Windows- in PPC 2k and 2k2, IE was closer to a superset of IE 3 (*shudder*). Just add ftxBrowser for tabs and customizable hotkeys. NetFront also runs well on CE. The slight browsing advantage of the Zaurus doesn't make up for all of the shortcomings.
:P
The Z makes a pretty poor PDA. It didn't even make a good mobile workstation and tiny development platform. I have more development options on WinCE that provide GUI access on CE. I have a number of good math apps on CE, including GNU Maxima, with the GUI-mode xmaxima- even gnuplot runs within the window. On the Zaurus I havea CLI version of octave- better than nothing, but far from optimal.
On the Zaurus, there is still no handwriting recognition, even after years. Character recog yes, but until the new 3.10 ROM it took 0.5-1 sec to recognize a character! For me, the biggest failing was the complete lack of a decent notetaking app... I used to carry around my Zaurus C760 and my Newton MP2100 to class with me. Nerdy, to be sure.
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
I think this is the right decision for Palm: it made no sense for Palm to try to maintain their own proprietary kernel and they obviously had a really hard time selling it. Since Linux is already a common and trusted multitasking protected-mode environment on mobile devices, it will greatly ease adoption of the new Palm software, since companies will feel that they aren't locked into a single software environment. And if they don't screw up, it will instantly make a huge amount of software available for the new PalmOS.
This decision comes very late, though. They could have put the Palm environment on top of Linux as soon as the first ARM-based Palm came out and just made any Microsoft effort in this area irrelevant. Palm's delay means they have lost a lot of marketshare to Microsoft. And they have probably seriously confused their developers in the meantime. Let's hope that it's not too late.
Palm's actual support for Linux has been fairly good, in the sense that the platform is pretty well documented.
In particular now that they are moving to a non-proprietary kernel, I wouldn't be too harsh on them if they go through with it.
Palm these!
Or something to that effect. If you read the docs related to Palm OS programming you will come across questions related to threading. How some of the operating system uses threads, but for the most part user level code doesn't have access to such things. Apparently the run time environment is limited to several fixed threads (think user input). Thus user level code can't create arbitrary threads due to an upper limit on available threads (something silly like 8). The docs explain that the limit is due to a licensing issue.
Using Linux as the underlying interface might free them from this restriction.
Oh... those yellow tabs attached to the monitors of people who can't remember their passwords! People in your office keep their client lists on those things? Why? The computer is right there on your desk, isn't it?
Um, no, this was out in the field, away from the office, while touring job sites with some potential clients. I don't really advocate PDA use while sitting at your desk.
For that matter, any decent phone should store all the contact information you could need.
Well, you see, we have several thousand contacts in our database, along with contact histories. I don't know what kind of phone you carry, but it would probably have to be a *PDA* combo phone to handle that.
And you're calling me a luddite!
Some of my best friends are Luddites - not that there's anything WRONG with that...
-G
www.pixelstatic.com
In a somewhat related note... I am still waiting for a response from this company http://www.wildseed.com/ to respnd to my e-mail about their possible GPL violation. Its a Linux-based phone running a 2.4 kernel if i remember right. Lots of neat technology in it, I am actually intending to buy one when my plan is up next month. However, after a _lot_ of digging through their website, and a lot of googling, I have yet to come up with one mention of where to obtain the source for the parts of their code the GPL would pertain to. An e-mail sent several weeks ago has gone unanswered. Perhaps you have the clout to get an answer from them? At the very least you seem to know the right way to deal with situations such as this.
once you go slack, you never go back
But does it _RUN_ linux?
Natural Selection: self-destruction of the poor and lazy
...is that its integration with the OS is ridiculously bad. And I mean ridiculously. It runs into problems if you change the input area or try to enable full screen from the status bar, FFS.
If they can't put in the effort to make it work right, I don't see that it's worth the money.
Eventually, I broke down and learnt Graffiti 2. It sucks, but it's better than Tealscript.
(The hack of installing Graffiti 1 doesn't work very well on the T3 and doesn't work at all on the T5.)
Yes, but there is a big difference between knowing that somebody is a moron and telling the rest of the world.
The reason for my sig is that I posted some comments that should have been modded positively (my karma has been pegged at excellent for some time now). But based on my sig (which was a political statement) I got modded down as a troll.
"-1 Troll" is the apparently the same as "-1 I disagree with you."
You're taking on Microsoft. I think it's safe to say you have the full support of the Linux community.
...these aren't my real teeth.
The letter says that PalmOS will be implemented as a layer directly on top of Linux. I'm assuming they mean through system calls.
This means there's no GNU toolset or anything, so no POSIX compatibility.
I understand that there's limited storage available, permanent and temporary, but this is going to make it hard to port UNIX apps.
...these aren't my real teeth.
When you say "palmtop," do you mean palmtop or PDA? A palmtop is usually used in reference to a handheld PC, something with a keyboard. Think HP200lx or Jornada 720. A PDA is usually one you hold in one hand and use a stylus in another.
I use a PDA as my primary computer at home. I take all of my college lecture notes on it too. I use it at work for meeting notes, todos, etc.
I don't have a cell phone, but if I got one, it'd be something simple with bluetooth, so I could go online with the PDA. A cellphone's PDA functions wouldn't come even remotely close to doing what I needed it to.
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
Electronic note-taking is the pits - it's much easier to rip a sheet from a pad and clip it to the relevant report than it is to scroll through hundreds of files called 'minutes of meeting x', opening each one up to see what Bob thought about trading in the old copier.
It all depends on the device you're using. 3 years ago, a lot of folks may still have been using 160x160 Palm PDAs. That is the pits, I'll give you that. Using CalliGrapher on a PocketPC isn't bad, though the screen is still a little small IMHO- ~3.5" is suboptimal, but very very doable with the right software, which Pocket PC has. The Zaurus and Palm OS both lack a good notetaking app.
The best notetaker is the Newton MP2100. Good HWR (not character recog, not grafiti) and a great notes app that lets you mix recognized text and sketches/shapes.
Unlike that legal pad, I can do a text search of my notes. On the Newton, I've not had problems printing over IrDA to the HP LaserJets we have at work or over ethernet or wireless. Printing off a page of Notes from the Newton pretty much always looks better than something on a legal pad, with most of it recognized into ASCII text.
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
"In the project that I'm on, I've pushed for (and successfully gotten) Palms used for interfacing to the electronics in the project."
Looked at your web site.
Bitterly disappointed that I couldn't find any more info about the referenced project.
Details, please, especially re "how" (both senses) you use Palm for interfacing to electronics.
irony, n:
incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs.
irony at wikipedia.
What is ironic about your wife owning a laptop that broke? It would be ironic if she was purposefully trying to buy a broken laptop as spare parts and got a fully functional laptop. But the other way around doesn't really cut it.
I would recommend you never refer to anything as ironic again, unless you are positive it is ironic. And never again in your lifetime should you say "even more ironically". Especially twice in one paragraph.
Of course irony as humor is entirely about there being two audiences and the humor is that one audience doesn't get it. (basically 90% of Americans are in that audience). I'm not asking that you "get" irony. I'm just asking that you don't refer to things as being ironic when they obviously are not.