Slashdot Mirror
Biological Activity on Mars
visination.com writes "Recent ground based observations of Mars have confirmed the presence of water and methane. The 300 year life time of methane on Mars is short, giving scientists reason to beleive that Mars may be biologically active." From the article: "Every one of these longitudes shows a very substantial enhancement in the equatorial zone...So this is a very intense source of methane on Mars in this region. It also requires a very rapid decay of methane...more rapid than photochemistry would allow..."
K'breel, speaker for the Council, stressed that there was no cause for alarm:
When challenged by pro-life activists present at the conference, who asserted that the invaders were living beings just as we are, and that we did not have the right to arbitrarily exterminate an entire species, K'Breel replied tersely:
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~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey
Why does it feel like our scientists are just chasing after the wind when it comes to the search for life on Mars?
Great, we discover extraterrestrial life and it smells like farts.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
not gonna say it... too easy.... not gonna say it
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
From the article: "The methane could be the result of biological processes. It could also be an "abiotic" geochemical process, however, or the result of volcanic or hydrothermal activity on the red planet." Not to burst your methane bubble or anything.
Given recent Photographic Evidence, the presence of chocolate compounds would seem to necessitate biological activity.
You know this eliminates the possibility of terraforming Mars, don't you. We'll have "Save the microbe" campaigns every time a mission is sent there.
Deleted
And who known that only exists carbon based life on the Galaxy?
http://www.michel.eti.br
I suspect somebody in the telescope room farted, polluting the spectragraph results. Now a 2 Billion fruitless methane mission will be sent up just because some guy had the Delux Bean-a-Mania burrito.
Table-ized A.I.
Okay, firstly, I am not a follower of any major religion, and I have not read the bible, so that is the purpose of this question...
After reading that article, and then reading another article advertised on the same page here I was starting to feel as if i would be surprised if we DIDN'T find evidence of life on mars. Anyway, I was just wondering what remifications such a finding would have on the bible followers. Is there any reference in the bible as to whether life on other planets exists. Almost every scientific discovery is met with religous opposition, so I was wondering if anyone had any opinions from the religous area. Does the bible say anything about life on other planets?
Scientists recently found large amounts of methane gas around Uranus.
There are some rather strange images from the Mars Orbiter Camera that don't appear to show geologic activity at first glance and do resemble bacteria beds or something organic. We need to go investigate!
And after further investigation several single celled life forms were recovered from the martian surface. Initial test results suggest the average martian microbe is TEN TIMES more biologically active than their earthling slashdotting counter parts.
One thing I haven't seen discussed but would like to, is to what stage could life have evolved in the period that it was particularly ripe for life? In that time frame, could there have been significant multicellular life? Significant enough to leave interesting fossils? It has been a lifelong dream of mine to go fossil hunting in an old river or lakebed on Mars. I'm young, so I might still realize it (even though highly, highly unlikely), unless the period of wetness on mars didn't last long enough to have any hope for such things. I'd settle for piloting a probe equipped with a little pick and brush. Fingers crossed.
Going a bit far for a publicity stunt for the new Spielberg version of War of the Worlds aren't we?
I understand the one-step-at-time approach NASA is pursuing with regard to the search for life on Mars, but it strikes me a little odd that the methane concentrations on Mars are being measured by telescopes based here on Earth. Why haven't current orbiters been equipped to sense this in a more direct fashion. I would think exact precise chemical composition of the air would be a high priority. In fact, how sensitive would the Viking data have been on showing possible methane concentrations in the atmosphere? My recommendation to NASA: more emphasis on chemical analysis in future missions. Yeah, I know the Rocket Scientists are probably already thinking this. Hopefully this new data will get the proper equipment funded for the next Mars shots. And yes I know everything is a trade off and we do chemical analysis as part of every mission to some degree. But damn, we have to use scopes here on Earth to get this data?!?
Letter To Iran
I hope this changes nothing with regards to my future condo on Mars. Althought the availability of cheap native labor could decrease the price...*ponder*
University of Washington
Student
I knew I should have kept those Slim Whitman CDs my grandmother left me.
What is that 300 year figure from? Wouldn't the use of 'half-life' be more appropriate?
love is just extroverted narcissism
I, for one, welcome our new - oh nevermind
Every one of these longitudes shows a very substantial enhancement in the equatorial zone...So this is a very intense source of methane on Mars in this region.
I believe I may have the solution! If you'll kindly lower your nose to my personal equatorial zone, and pull my finger gently, I'll show you what I mean...
$8.95/mo web hosting
Great...now we have to design the probes to withstand headcrab attacks.
____
~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey
We also have "Save the rainforest" campaigns. The rainforest is full off unknown species but that doesn't stop the vegetarians from turning it into a giant soy plantage (It's Troll Tuesday right?).
The Chair Corp. comic(*00-12)
Thanks for sharing, Mr. President.
An tha beasties live in active volcanoes!
...
Tis like I were tellin ya, bout them strange underwater dragons wot lived beneath the waves in Davy Jones locker, feastin on the heat of the volcanoes that go down straight ta Hades
.
.
Seriously, just because life exists in biological and temperature extremes, as was recently discovered by researchers here at the University of Washington - Huskies represent! - doesn't necessarily mean that there has yet been proven to be life on Mars. That requires something to validate the hypothesis, like a mars rover, or a manned space flight, or some other validation. We only have emissions and temperature readings, which could be caused by other things, given our lack of data to date.
But kudos if it is life!
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
He went on to describe how bacteria are routinely found in the upper reaches of the atmosphere, and how meteorite impacts are almost certain to propel them into space. Furthermore, he described how many species of bacteria form spores, and that these spores were known to tolerate high temperatures, low temperatures, radiation (!), and exposure to a vacuum for an extended period of time.
In essence, bacteria can make the trip to Mars. The only question is whether or not Earth bacteria can survive there.The ESA "mothership" that deposited Beagle 2 all over the Martian landscape has a spectrometer and it has been observing methane releases for some time. The ESA has been unsure, though, whether it was due to life or geological activity. Trust NASA to go with the more exciting option, with no more data to go on.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Scientists have finaly probed the gassy inards of Uranas.
Does this mean a giant fart-producing alien is loose... or did ISS just jettison a overdue waste release?
In America, you spam computers In Soviet Russia, computers spam you!
I for one welcome our biologically active martian overlords.
The days of the digital watch are numbered.
Remember that.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
Martians will have to get used to saying:
"I for one welcome our new Terra-ist overlords!"
1. Build Mars colonial Mission
2. Begin Terra-izing Mars.
3. ????? (Encase resident Martian lifeforms in epoxy souvenir blocks)
4. PROFIT!
Woo hoo I found step three!
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
Best. Anti. Troll. Ever... I tip my hat to five words of perfect sarcasm...
Programming is an Art. I am an Artist. Does that mean I get to wear a daft hat?
Methane + Possibility of Life + Mars = Fart Jokes:-/
Hey! :-)
That is a valid Slashdot comment and should moderated up.
Suppose you were an idiot and suppose you were a member of Congress, but wait, I repeat myself. --Mark Twain
If it was good enough for Sam, it's good enough for me. At least his tar brush gave fair coverage to all. I shall endevour to do likewise.
KFG
Have no fear, that's just a glass of water sitting on top of a candy bar!
*Flies away*
....Japan launched a "monolithic evolutionary firework" oh say....about ~340 years ago?
OEÉæÁÄZÝÈA OEÉæé_CX
Can't wait for the next update! Hope it fixes all those contradictio... er, bugs.
You must think in Russian.
An infinite God would need that many planets to keep himself from going insane with boredom.
An infinite God would have an infinite capacity to withstand boredom, if such a term would even apply to Him. Furthermore, even an infinite God could not create an infinite number of finite things, because he would never finish.
Thinkin' Lincoln - a web comic of presidential proportions
So....many....fart jokes....must...resist urge...to ...So after all the hype, 1st contact ends up being an alien saying "Come on, pull my finger." .....couldn't....stop...bad....joke....brain....ca n't ...process.......all....too...many....
Turk: Let's play Steak. J.D.: What? Turk: Steak. The 1st person to finish their steak is the winner of Steak. -Scrubs
also makes the best food...
cheese,
wine,
beer,
yoghurt,
(aged) meat,
what am I forgetting?
-- it's ridiculous how many people misspell ridiculous... (damn, damn, damn...)
its two candy bars :)
SCENE: Rooftop. Lightning flashes occasionally. Thunder rumbles.
... my creature ... *biological activity!*"
DR. FRANKENSTEIN stands over the lifeless form of THE MONSTER. THE MONSTER is strapped to a gurney, with electrical apparatus attached to various points on his body.
[Lightning Crashes]
Medium shot: DR. FRANKENSTEIN looks skyward, raises hands, imploring.
DR. FRANKENSTEIN: "Give
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
due to new contradictions introduced, religious fanatics can sometimes take control of your religion and use it for their own purposes
http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/377/12257_M artian.html
According to this highly respectable news page, a Russian boy is a martian and he can tell you all about life there.
Case closed. No need to spend more money going there.
I'm really choking on this one. There's too much to get into, but here's the first few: Why would God have to be satisfied? Wouldn't a truly infinite being be satisfied, not satisfied, both satisfied and not satisfied, and neither satisfied and not satisfied? Why is finiteness 'nothing' to an infinite being? Can't an intelligent God do some things meaninglessly and other things meaningfully?
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
-- Pablo Picasso
Isaiah 40:22 clearly indicates the earth is round.
As does Job 26. Where do you get this information?
I'm with Mr. Proletariat on this matter. We do eat too much, we do care too much about money, and lordy lordy lordy do we ever let our standards fall! I must ask you dear sir, what was the point (that's P as in Peter; O as in Oliver; I as in Ignatius; N as in Nancy; and T as in Timmothy) point of what you said? Did you mean to offend the entirety of everyone with that off color "humor" (and I quote)? Because mister you certainly did!
Oh dear. I'm getting all flustered. Sir. I must ask you to apologize. Not just here, but to the entire human race. And don't forget the lovely bambi deer and all the beautiful dalmation puppies in the world too. And even the ugly centipedes and the ants!
Now I'm going to go wash my mouth out, and so should you!
This of course, begs the fundamental question we've been grasping at all these years: could God microwave a burrito even he couldn't eat it?
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
The Bible, while not a scientific document (and it does not intend to be one) does hold some VERY accurate, simple scientific truths. While his contemporaries believed the world to be flat (along with science at the time), the prophet Isaiah spoke of "the circle of the earth".
A circle is a 2-dimensional shape, and thus still as flat as a pancake (also a circle by the way). If Isaiah had had spoken about the globe of the earth, or the ball, or even the appel or pomegrade, you might have been right.
The round (as in circle) earth has been a very popular shape in Christian iconography. Feel free to google around for "TO maps" (where the O stands for the shape of the earth, and the T for the rivers dividing it into the tree continents - Asia, Europe and Africa) or visit this non-english page with loads of pretty pictures.
By the universal law of "he who smelt it, dealt it," those Jovians who visit Mars in a few decades will think "damn those humans, now they're stinking up ANOTHER planet!"
A bunch of martians sitting around a campfire
eating beans and releasing methane.
Oh wait, I've seen that before....
What exactly is it that they are implying with this quote about decay - "It also requires a very rapid decay of methane... more rapid than photochemistry would allow". As I understood it, the presence of methane was indicative of life, because you'd expect any atmospheric methan to photodissociate withina few hundred years of it - therefore there should be very little of it. They mention this abnormally rapid decay is required, but it doesn't seem at all clear why? Can anyone shed some light on this? I'm very disappointed in /. today... If I could have I'd have moderated about 90% of this whole discussion offtopic... :/
And people ask me why I don't believe this garbage. I hope you snickered when you typed "logically consistent" because it sure made me laugh.
Chunks of Mars splashed into space by meteor strikes have landed on earth. Any bacteria in the chunks could have survived the trip and after landing on earth in its formative era four billion yers ago would have multiplied. Maybe we are all martians. On the other hand, the deep sea plumes of methane on earth can be created from carbon dioxide under immense pressure and heat blasting past catalytic minerals. Maybe the same happens on Mars. NASA's mission in 2010 may answer if life exisits or ever existed on Mars unless the resources for it get stolen by Bush-baby's obsession with putting a hominid on Mars first.
I really don't think that he meant that he was standing by the river, the clouds opened up, then he passed out and channeled with god who made him halucinate or dream something completely irrelevant but that just so happened to perfectly describe what he would have seen if he had seen flying saucers with portholes carrying lifeforms from the sky, disturbing the clouds as they came down. Since he neglected to mention that he passed out and hallucinated or dreamed, I think we can assume that he was describing what he saw and "vision of god" is a literal translation.
The reason that it can be true that 1+1 > 2 is that very peculiar nonzero value of the + operator
In desperation we search for life on Mars when scientists like Peter Ward & Donald Brownlee write Rare Earth, and we can't even create life in the lab by use of 'intelligence' we theorize wildly about life on other planets, and then, after the odds are calculated so high and impossible that life forms on our planet, we think that it is possible for life to pop up next door! Really...we've got to start thinking more critically here.
Dr. Vittorio Formisano is/was the principle investigator of the Planetary Fourier Spectrometer used by European Space Agencies Mars Express probe.
:)
From reading the spectrometer, he believed it was evident that methane, ammonia, and formaldehyde can all be found in the martain atmosphere. Where as methane will last a few hundred years in the atmosphere, formaldehyde will only -eight- hours.
I'm not a scientist, but from what I've read, all 3 gases are strong indicators of life. While I know that the methane could be produced by volcanic activity on Mars (as mentioned elsewhere in the thread), Mars is a geologically dead planet. There is no sign of any such activity.
The presence of all 3 gases on a geologically dead planet would seem to be consistent with planet having some microbial life. As Mars entered its Spring, the levels of all 3 gases were found to rise as well. Of course, more life, more gas in the atmosphere.
It was also noted that the gas levels rose sharply over Mars' frozen oceans as spring approached. Perhaps some simples forms of life were frozen in the oceans? It could also be that the frozen oceans sit over some geological vents, trapping some methane.
But again, as far as anyone knows Mars is still a geologically dead planet.
Sorry if this doesn't make much sense... but gas indicating life in the martian atmosphere is OLD news, and there are far more compelling gases (like formaldehyde) that exist in the atmosphere. If it only lasts for 8 hours, something there is reproducing it.
Apparently, the only way to know definitively what is producing it, is to go dig up the soil. So... good luck on that ever happening. Apparently we have to build a base on the moon first.
Considering the fact that he used the word "living creatures" instead of people and he clearly described vehicles and they clearly resemble flying saucers with portholes, we can safely say that if he was having a hallucination or dream, he was having one about flying saucers with non-human pilots.
Since this occurred thousands of years ago and nothing in this dude's life could have possibly seeded his imagination in such a way as to make him hallucinate about advanced technology and non-human pilots, we can also safely say that if he did dream or hallucinate this vision then either he had seen or heard about something like this before or he was seeing the future through prescience or divine inspiration.
Taking this a bit further, if we assume that flying saucers (let's just call them UFOs) and non-human intelligences are works of 20th century science fiction, then we are ready to draw conclusions about this dude.
Either
(A) Ezekiel was, through prescience or divine inspiration, having dreams, hallucinations (visions) of phenomena that does not exist, that exactly matches the UFO phenomena from 20th century science fiction and ascribing this as god
or
(B) Ezekiel was having dreams, hallucinations (visions) of some phenomena that was known at the time that, through pure coincidence, exactly matches the UFO phenomena from 20th century science fiction and ascribing this as god.
or, if we assume that UFOs are real (not just science fiction)
(C) Ezekiel was truly seeing (or having dreams or hallucinations based on his or other's experiences), real UFOs and non-human pilots and he believed them to be of god.
or, lastly,
(D) Ezekiel really did have a dream or hallucination of god and it is just coincidence that his view of god matches our modern view of UFOs and aliens. Which scenario makes more sense? Use Occom's razor.
The reason that it can be true that 1+1 > 2 is that very peculiar nonzero value of the + operator
A Mars researcher currently working with data from the Opportunity rover told me a couple weeks ago that he and some colleagues calculated what it would take to produce the levels of methane observed on Mars.
Their results? Three cows. Seriously.
I have no idea how accurate those calculations were, but he's a smart guy with more degrees than I have.
No gods, no demons, and no masters. Secular Humanism!
Problem: While there are many, many stars in the universe, there is not an infinite amount of stars, nor is there an infinite amount of planets.
You have two hands and one brain, so always code twice as much as you think!
The translation of the King James Bible predated the time when spelling was standardized. Over time the spelling of words was standardized, and in turn the spelling used in the bible was updated.
Much the same reason that many people prefer the NIV translation to KJV. The king James translation is just fine, except it was done in the early 1600s, and uses the language they spoke then[1]. Which is not the language as we speak it today, though it is close enough that we can understand it. As time goes on there will be a new popular translation that replaces NIV.
[1]Actually it doesn't. The translators of the King James Bible choose to invest a more formal English that was never spoken. For purposes of my point you can consider it the language spoken then, but you should be aware that people didn't speak like that back then.
"Should we actually find this life, and determine that it is similar to life on earth, the evolutionists will be left trying to explain how life from earth travelled to Mars without spacecraft to carry it there. (There are plausible explanations for this.)"
:)
More likely than not, life would have formed on mars first as it would have become hospitable before earth stopped being mass of roiling semi hardened magma.
But you're right, there are several explanations. The most popular one is transpermia. We are finding that life can be in the most inhospitable of places, and some spores can survive the intense radiation and vacuum of space. Be that as it may, I don't see what the problem would be in having similar life evolving on two seperate planets in the same solar system.
In this case, early earth and mars may have been pretty similar. In that case, would it not make sense for similar protien structures to have evolved?
Also, the DNA/RNA protien structure is very efficient and hardy. It is reasonable to expect that other life forms will be using a similarly organized protien structure as it's base.
That's not to say that other life forms won't be incredibly exotic. After all, we do have creatures like the walking octopus.
~X~
~X~
Hebrew: mot
A primitive root; to waver; by implication to slip, shake, fall: - be carried, cast, be out of course, be fallen in decay, X exceedingly, fall (-ing down), be (re-) moved, be ready shake, slide, slip.
All instances of this word: Leviticus 25:35; Deuteronomy 32:35; 1 Chronicles 16:30; Job 41:23; Psalms 10:6; 13:4; 15:5; 16:8; 17:5; 21:7; 30:6; 38:16; 46:2, 5, 6; 55:3, 22; 60:2; 62:2, 6; 82:5; 93:1; 94:18; 96:10; 104:5; 112:6; 125:1; 140:10; Proverbs 10:30; 12:3; 24:11; 25:26; Isaiah 24:19; 40:20; 41:7; 54:10
John F. McGowan III, "Oil and natural gas on Mars," in Instruments, Methods, and Missions for Astrobiology III, Richard B. Hoover, Editor, Proceedings of SPIE Vol. 4137, pp. 63-74 (2000).
Oil and Natural Gas on Mars
ABSTRACT
On Earth, according to conventional theory, the largest, by mass and volume, identifiable trace of past life is subsurface oil and natural gas deposits. Nearly all coal and oil on Earth and most sedimentary source rocks associated with coal, oil, and natural gas contain molecules of biological origin and is proof of past life. If Mars possessed an Earth-like biosphere in the past, Mars may contain subsurface deposits of oil and natural gas indicating past life. Life might still exist in these deposits. Subsurface oil and natural gas on Mars would probably cause seepage of hydrocarbon gases such as methane at favorable locations on the Martian surface. Further, if Mars contains substantial subsurface life, the most detectable signature of this life on the Martian surface would be gases generated by the life percolating up to the surface and venting into the Martian atmosphere. In this paper, systems that can detect evidence of subsurface oil and gas, including ground penetrating radar and infrared gas sensors are explored. The limitations and future prospects of infrared gas detection and imaging technologies are explored. The power, mass, and volume requirements for infrared instruments able to detect venting gases, especially methane, from an aerobot is estimated. The maximum range from the infrared sensor to the gas vent and the minimum detectable gas density or fraction of the Martian atmosphere - as appropriate for the instrument type - is estimated. The bit rate and bit error rate requirements for transmitting the data back to Earth are also estimated.
Not to burst your methane bubble or anything.
/., right?
Cos we'd hate to kick up a stink on
Yeah, yeah, methane doesn't really smell, just go with the funny - try the veal...
Dealing with lawyers would be a lot less tedious if they all looked like Casey Novak.
I agree that God is inclined to create an infinite number of worlds because He is an infinite Being, but I disagree that this is necessary to have sufficient meaning and purpose for God.
Many pagans in ancient times, and maybe modern times too, had a hard time believing that huge and powerful gods could care about small concerns. So they made idols to represent different kinds of gods; big idols for big gods and little idols for little gods. They prayed to the big gods for big concerns (rain for crops) and the little gods for little, personal concerns. We Christians shouldn't fall into the trap of thinking that our infinite God doesn't have the power or ability to focus Himself on small things. Omnipotence means being able to have concern for every creature and concern, no matter how small.
Look under a microscope, and you'll see that the infinite God has a fascination for tiny things. God doesn't just go far out; He goes far in.God can be satisfied with life on one world.
See also 1 Kings 8:52-23.God can be content to focus on one creature in that world: mankind.
Furthermore, He can be content to choose one people from among peoples.
The apple of God's eye? Does God say that about certain creatures on other planets, too? Martian to God: "Oh, I bet You say that to all the creatures." Is there an "Israel" on other planets? How many eyes does God have?
The Bible doesn't rule out the possibility of other life or even life that is especially important to God, but it seems very doubtful that such exists. If there is, God has put it beyond the concern of Earthlings.
The way this verse is taught to apply is that Jerusalem is your hometown. Judea and Samaria represent your state or region. The rest is the rest of the world. The Greek word for earth here (gei) is not equivalent to words like the Hebrew olam, which can mean "universe." It is more like the Hebrew aretz, which refers specifically to the earth and is sometimes translated as "land" or "earth," as in tierra."Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves
Got that? Ok.
The inner-edge diameter is circumference/pi = 30/3.14... = 9.55... cubits
The difference between the ring's inner edge diameter and its outer edge diameter is thus about .45 cubits; to get the thickness of the ring we divide
by two (because the ring crosses the diameter twice), so .225 cubits, or about 4.05 inches, given an eighteen-inch cubit.
Note that a handbreadth is usually defined as about four inches, so we know the numbers add up; you can take it apart and get pi from it by working backwards:
The inner-edge diameter is equal to the outer-edge diameter minus (thickness * 2), thus 10cubits - .45 cubits(i.e., 2 handbreadths) = 9.55 cubits.
Their value of pi would be the inner-edge circumference (30 cubits) divided by the inner-edge diameter (9.55 cubits), thus about 3.14....
[The reading "pi is exactly three" is based on the weird idea of measuring the tub as a circle rather than a ring.] [and of course your mileage will vary based on the proportion of the cubit you use to your handbreadth, but let's gloss over that for now...]
People with pure hearts can go to a whole new world.
Creationists can easily explain anything by saying "God did it".
Who needs Science?
Kit? Is that you? Hey knight rider, how did you get Kit to travel back in time?
Life is not for the lazy.
What you fail to understand is that K'breel sounds just like a capable warmonger. In fact, I get the distinct impression that K'breel's character is modelled on a president we all know and love. Well, know, anyway.
You should take a look at C.S. Lewis's Space Trilogy. While I really wouldn't call them great works of sci-fi, (some of his first novels after all) they do concern themselves with the question you ask. The first work, namely, and the second in the series as well, Out of the Silent Planet, and Perelandra, question the consequences on a spiritual level. One which holds pretty well with the Bible -C.S. Lewis was something of an apolagist for Christianity.
His idea was along the lines of creating something that didn't contradict scripture, but tries to question what the ramifications would be. To summarise a bit, he basically says that earth is the excecption, the one planet that messed everything up, therefore we ought to question if we even have the right to explore other planets, corrupting them in the same way that we, being corrupt, continue to corrupt others and our own planet earth. But there's alot more to the space trilogy than this.
I'm british, and i can admit we've done some really crappy stuff in the past (appeasment, Colonizing america/australia,
Why do you think colonizing America was a bad thing? England provided an essential cultural and institutional base that set America on a solid course. The monarchy was rotten, no doubt about that, but it produced some fastastic people and a great civilization. England's influence on world culture in the past 300 years has been profound, more so than any other European colonial power.
an ill wind that blows no good
On the other hand increasing the life expectancy of the Indian population during its rule by nearly 50% (21 years up to 30) is something that is not often talked about. Considering the millions that are involved, that's somewhat surprising?
Not excusing the negatives, just pointing out that things are rarely binary in real life.
I'd venture that a lot of Native Americans would consider the colonization of America as "not in their best interests".
I don't think their current tax-free status WRT gambling institutions is considered a fair trade off for the smallpox infested blankets.
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
"God doesn't just go far out; He goes far in"
That's what Mary said too.
By the way, your belief system is a fairy tale based on a book of lies.
Have a nice day.
Would it really have been better for Europe to bypass North and South America, leaving them in the perpetual grip of brutal Stone Age cultures? Invasion and displacement are basal Darwinian forces. They are neither good nor bad.
an ill wind that blows no good
You're also making a value judgement on our progress; some people think that the stewardship that the Indians prized highly was a much better approach to sustaining humanity.
Plus, why would they remain in the Stone Age? Slower technological advances != no technological advances.
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
We're talking about wholesale genocide here, that makes the Holocaust look like chump change in numbers.
I'm not an "end justifies the means" type guy so I find it funny to not attach a negative moral value to a genocide. I guess I'm just a bleeding heart liberal.
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
Thanks... :)
I actually mean that - I really appreciate the faults in my country being picked out, as I don't always see them, and if you can't see your own faults, you'll never get better
Programming is an Art. I am an Artist. Does that mean I get to wear a daft hat?
Not all of pre-Columbus America was equally primitive.
For example, the Iroquois Confederation had been enjoying a working democracy for 500 years when the Europeans "discovered" them. In fact, large parts of the Constitution of the United States were consciously based on the Iroquois model, because that had been proven to work.
See The Constitution of the Iroquois Confederacy. It's all there: the voting, the rule of law, and the separation of the government into executive, legislative, and judicial branches.
I bet you didn't know that. The U.S. today is desperately and deliberately amnesiac on many topics, probably out of embarrassment and guilt. (And I include Iraq in this.) The greatest genius in American history was not Jefferson, Franklin, or anyone else you have probably heard of, but Dekanawidah of the Iroquois, who invented the laws of the Iroquois Confederacy so long ago (around 1100 AD).
Err.. for myself I don't consider increasing the life expectancy of the Indian population as a bad thing.
Not all of pre-Columbus America was equally primitive.
Certainly not. The Inca, Aztec, Maya.. civilizations were not primitive culturally. Perhaps 'Stone Age' is not an accurate description perhaps for people who had some metalurgy, lived in cities and cultivated crops. They certainly were brutal, and technologically backward compared to Europe. I don't know much about the Iroqois Confederacy. What you state is interesting. I'd like to learn more.
The US is not alone as a society that is in denial about its past transgressions. Indeed, it is not the worst offender considering historal interpretations that prevail in Japan, China, Russia, France... I think the majority of Americans are proud of the role they play in Iraq, crushing tyranny and establishing democracy. The war against Saddam has been a great success.
an ill wind that blows no good
What can be worse than the American genocide of another race?
I think the majority of Americans are proud of the role they play in Iraq, crushing tyranny and establishing democracy.
"Establishing democracy?" No so. The truth is that the U.S. tried very hard to create another dictatorship: Iyad Alawi was to be the next ruler of Iraq, the next Saddam, wielding Saddam's hated secret police (the newly revived Mukhabarat). Like Saddam, Alawi was a former client -- i.e. puppet -- of the CIA; and like Saddam, Alawi was a psychotic murderer.
The U.S. installed Alawi as Interim Prime Minister, and even tried to confer a halo of legitimacy on him by inviting him to give a speech to Congress. Don't you remember it? Alawi was loudly cheered in the Capitol and widely praised in the U.S. media. They loved this murderer. Clearly, the intent was to establish another brutal and hated dictatorship.
You cannot tell me that the U.S. invasion of Iraq has been motivated by any shred of decency.
The war against Saddam has been a great success.
Only in the sense of Tacitus, the Roman historian: "They make a desert and call it peace." (See Fallujah.)
The Alawi enthronement failed at birth, mostly because the Shiites absolutely abhorred the guy (and I do not blame them at all). The recent hastily rigged elections were a gloss on the American capitulation to reality: that the Shiites now dominate Iraq. The situation is now extremely perilous, because the Shiites also run neighboring Iran: this is why the U.S. is now beating the war drums against the mullahs. It is also why the Pentagon has purchased 1,500,000,000 bullets this year.
An unprovoked invasion of a country, killing who knows how many tens of thousands of people, only to replace that country's dictator with another murderous dictator: this is something for Americans to be proud of? Another looming war, because Bush has totally messed up the first one: this is success?
I can see you are no fan of Alawi. But your argument fails miserably because Alawi is a Shiite. Don't you think that it is laudible that the US has accepted the results of the January election and allowed the Shiite majority to assume power? The proud display of inked fingers by voters who risked their lives going to the polls should tell you something about the legitimacy of the election. History will remember Mr. Alawi the father of the new Iraq. History will also look kindly apon President Bush for dealing decisively with the Iraq issue.
Falluja was the seat of the Sunni/Al-Qaida insurgency. That insurgency had to be crushed. It is sad that Falluja had to be destroyed at the same time. But even a fertile field must be plowed occasionally.
an ill wind that blows no good
Thus Bush's claim of "spreading democracy" is a total lie. As I said, you cannot tell me that the U.S. invasion of Iraq has been motivated by any shred of decency.
I do strongly believe the invasion of Iraq was motivated by decency. It was indecent for a cynical world, led by Old Europe and the UN, that allowed Saddam to brutalize Kurdistan and reign for 12 additional years after the first gulf war. Mr. Bush and Mr. Rumsfeld have made things right. The middle east is now alight with the flame of democracy. The traditional arguments of the liberal left have been completely refuted by events on the ground. You still see conspiracies where there are none. All you can do is make hyperbolic assertions with no relevance to real events. Aren't you embarrassed?
an ill wind that blows no good
Believe what you like. That does not make your beliefs the truth.
It was indecent for a cynical world, led by Old Europe and the UN, that allowed Saddam to brutalize Kurdistan and reign for 12 additional years after the first gulf war.
Was it not the sainted President Reagan who gave Saddam the chemical weapons with which he gassed the Kurds? Was it not Donald Rumsfeld, no less, who went to Baghdad at the time to shake Saddam's hand? Please tell me about the decency of Reagan and Rumsfeld.
All you can do is make hyperbolic assertions with no relevance to real events.
(Boggle) No relevance to reality? Has Bush's WMD excuse for invading Iraq proven to be totally empty, or not? Did the U.S. revive Saddam's dreaded secret police, the Mukhabarat, or not? Did Iyad Alawi make a loudly praised speech to Congress, or not? Is the same Alawi now leading death squads in Iraq, or not? Did Americans torture their prisoners in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, in defiance of the Geneva Conventions, or not?
"Decency" is not in Bush's vocabulary. (See his heist of the University of Houston's trust fund.) It is certainly in "Chemical" Rumsfeld's vocabulary, but he sneers at it.
It hard to tell if this guy's crazy, or just trying to be funny by totally overblowing religious beliefs...
Don't take life so seriously. No one makes it out alive.
Omnipotence means being able to have concern for every creature and concern, no matter how small.
Omnipotence means being able to have disdain for every creature and concern, no matter how large. It means being able to propagate a false story about heavenly salvation for thousands of years, just as a mean joke.
Omnipotence means being able to do absolutely anything, good or evil, and concealing your true intentions if you wish.
If you believe someone is omnipotent, you can't believe anything else about him, because you've already decided he has the power to totally mislead you if he wanted.
Plus, why would they remain in the Stone Age? Slower technological advances != no technological advances.
True, true. Why, with a little luck, the Aztec civilization of Mexico could've invented high technology and spread an empire across the two continents.
That's be great! All the benefits of crowded civilized modern America, plus daily human sacrifices to the sun god!
On the other hand, if the Aztecs didn't make a big leap forward, then the Americas could've remained easy pickings until Adolf Hitler decides to colonize them in 1943. That would work out great, too.
We're talking about wholesale genocide here, that makes the Holocaust look like chump change in numbers.
No, that's simply not true.
For one thing, Hitler in 1942 killed more people than the entire population of North America in 1492.
For another, the European conquerors actually killed a very tiny fraction of the population of the continents they colonized. Specifically, the population numbers of "Native Americans" has increased every year since 1530. Not once did enough die to outweigh that year's births.
90 Kilos!?!? You can keep your 90Kg Soviet beauties! (That's 198 lbs!) In Kapitalist Amerika, we don't need backup propulsion for our SUVs... they just work! No wonder you've given up on going to Mars. No rocket could send one of your "Soviet beauties" with enough life support to survive the trip. (Not that you Commies were ever overly preoccupied with your Cosmonauts returning...)
And take Anna Nicole Smith with you, you Commie chubby chaser! I'll take your scrawny, corrupt, effete, counter-revolutionary devotchkas
Yes, I suggest further examination of the insidious West infecting the pure revolutionary heart with their subversive, expatriate ideas. Long live the Czar! Long live the Counter-Revolution!
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon