Discussing Logitech's New Gaming Mice

Paul writes "Logitech had a busy day announcing three new products designed for gamers. The company introduced the Logitech G15 keyboard, G5 and G7 G-Series gaming mice. TechSpot had a brief talk with Erik Charlton, senior product-marketing manager at Logitech, who shared a few ideas and details on Logitech's newly announced products."

Comments

I love logitech

[mvizos]

I will say, however. Screw flanders

Optimus

[bigwavejas]

Logitech definitely isn't the first company to consider a keyboard which can be used for gaming. I'm really excited about: http://www.artlebedev.com/portfolio/optimus/

Re:Optimus

[Anonymous Coward]

wow, these new mice really hit the G-Spot!

/me apologizes

Re:Optimus

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, when the Optimus was first announced, it conjoured up images of an old "Gaming Keyboard" (For lack of a better term), in which it was more like a kiosk, where you would download (or program) keyboard layouts, print them out, and insert them into the device. The idea SEEMED great (at least at the time), but actually using it was akward, not to mention it wasn't reliable enough to actually be used in games that it was designed for (like quake).

Re:Optimus

[CheechBG]

Screw the Logitech keyboard, I want to get my hands on this...

I REALLY hope this isn't vaporware.

Re:Optimus

[oneiros27]

Kick ass! I can keep track of my key bindings in Duke Nukem Forever!

Re:Optimus

[millwall]

Bear in mind that the Optimus keyboard is expected in 2006 and is yet only at prototype stage.

As discussed earlier on Slashdot: http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/07/ 18/1314226&tid=126&tid=137

Re:Optimus

[JahToasted]

Yeah the optimus will be great for playing Duke Nukem Forever on.

Re:Optimus

[HD Webdev]

Kick ass! I can keep track of my key bindings in Duke Nukem Forever [wired.com]!

YM, "Duke Nukem Whenever", HTH.

Re:Optimus

[Peartree]

the Optimus is going to be bad ass

Re:Optimus

[zkn]

A 3D rendering of a product concept can hardly be considered a prototype. They are in concept stage.

Re:Optimus

[vettemph]

What ever happened to those card board templates you could lay around your F-keys to show their functions in your word proccesor? I sure miss those.

Re:Optimus

[zkn]

The first rule of gaming: Look at the screen not the keyboard.

However with logitechs new brilliant design you would be able to see your health decresing while you'r looking the the key you program to run your move forward macro.

Re:Optimus

[antiMStroll]

Anyone who needs to see keys in an FPS is a stationary target. Nice keyboard, as much benefit for gaming as neon case lights.

Re:Optimus

[K1DA]

better pray to god you dont spill on that keyboard...

Images here

[plover]

The story of a keyboard is fine, but pictures are worth more. See the G15 keyboard here.

Re:Images here

[Spades_]

Here's a link to the rest of the product line:

http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/products/product list/US/EN,crid=2287&categoryid=10

Re:Images here

[godfra]

Looks like this one has been slashdotted already.

There's some picccies here though, looks quite nice.

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Logitech-to-Present -the-Logitech-G15-Wonder-at-the-Games-Convention-2 005-6245.shtml

Re:Images here

[James_Aguilar]

I don't think it could possibly be useful. Anything that makes me look away from my receticle is something that makes it more likely for me to be killed: the further away I look, the longer it takes me to reacquire my sight and aim.

Re:Images here

[Psiren]

Thanks for the link. It is as I thought it was... one of the most pointless devices ever made. Who on earth is going to be looking at their keyboard when they're playing games, especially when playing FPS? Someone clearly had too much time on their hands. No doubt people will buy it though, you only have to look at the Ipod to see how style triumphs over substance.

Re:Images here

[Skye16]

As an aside, but, the new logitech mice with the sensitivity switching SUCK!

I game an awful lot, and I've gotten used to not using them. I'm sure they may help some users, but I don't _truly_ see the need. What I WOULD like, however, is to map those extra buttons into something else. I have an MX518 and the fact that I have 3 extra buttons that I can't use for anything just irritates me.

Would it be so hard for them to give me the option to disable that stuff entirely and map those buttons as Mouse 6, 7, and 8? THAT is something I would love. Hell, I'd probably buy a second one, just to show them how much I love them.

Re:Images here

[calibanDNS]

Product pages:

• G15 Gaming Keyboard
• G7 Laser Cordless Mouse
• G5 Laser Mouse

Re:Images here

[Erwos]

This is assuming that all this is good for is games. I disagree. This gives an excellent venue for such things as LCDProc, which could use it as a convienient spot for system temperature, fan speed, etc. Maybe it could be used for RSS feeds while you're playing, or incoming IM. Be creative!

However, I do think it will provide a reasonable place for auxillary information for games, too. Not everything is an FPS - think RTS or turn-based strategy. Getting instant information on how much range, firepower, armor, etc. your selected units have (averaged?) could be stunningly useful, yet be a little too much for the main game screen. A keyboard LCD fills this void in an efficient way.

-Erwos

Re:Images here

[plover]

The more I think about it, the more this could really enhance realism to gaming by removing onscreen clutter.

It'll be interesting to try it out. I like to play America's Army in a darkened room, and for total immersion I'd love to get rid of all the status bars, bullet counts, magazine counts, health, steadiness, objectives, etc. Just show me a picture out the soldiers eyes. A small glowing compass and current weapon indicator down below my line of sight would be perfect. In a firefight or tense "scan for opfor" situation, all you see is either nothing or targets. Once the action has passed, though, you can steal a quick glance down to see how you're doing for ammo, is there a medic call, etc. And as in the real world, when you divert attention away from the situation to check on the mundane details, you might miss something.

Yeah, this looks really interesting. It might not improve my frag rate, but it sure could improve my enjoyment.

Re:Images here

[James_Aguilar]

Or maybe just a bigger screen? =P

Re:Images here

[StarvingSE]

For most FPS's now, like CS:S, you die after a couple of hits anyway, so keeping track of stats isn't that much of an issue anyway.

Re:Images here

[kccricket]

Ya know, that HUD setup sounds a lot like Red Orchestra for UT2004.

Re:Images here

[kccricket]

The extra buttons on my MX510 work just fine for whatever I want them to in most native Linux games. There's a guide on Linux-Gamers.net that worked for me.

Re:Images here

[Moofie]

What the hell is a receticle?

Re:Images here

[FortranDragon]

I just wish you could tell if the keyboard had that damnable F-Lock key. I hate the Logitech keyboards that have this 'feature'. If they would default to F-Lock being on that would be fine, but they don't. :sigh:

Re:Images here

[Refrag]

The G5 is obviously styled to go with the G5.

Re:Images here

[Antony.S]

Amen, my Microsoft Multimedia keyboard is the same, I recently disabled all the hotkeys on the F-keys so that when I forget to turn on F-lock my game isn't minimized while Windows Help loads

Re:Images here

[PerspexAvenger]

From the high-res press shots available I say no.
No extra button marked, no LED, no alleged "functions" written on the F-keys.
S'all good.

I'd imagine they figured with an extra 18 keys available at the side they didn't feel the need to screw up the normal functionality of the rest.
Hells, maybe they've even been listening to customer feedback about F-lock. ;)

Want one now, dammit.

Re:Images here

[timts]

are you really sure that you want to look down at your keyboard when busy playing online game against other players? I'd rather read those game information on my monitor.

Re:Images here

[Keith Russell]

I just grabbed one of the high-res press photos. Good news:

THERE'S NO F-LOCK! WOO HOO! No F-Lock button, no indicator LED. No strange glyphs on the F-keys themselves.

In fact, this is the first Logitech (or Microsoft) keyboard in a long time that doesn't fool around with the standard layout. There's no fancy arrow key design, double-sized Delete key, or "hunt the Insert key" shenanigans. Just an unmolested 104-key layout.

In fact, with the programmable G-keys, on-the-fly macros (the M1-3 and MR buttons in the upper left corner), and built-in screen, this could make a pretty kick-ass programmer's board. They're publishing the API for the screen, so I could easily see it being used for variable watches or process statistics. And there are some unmarked buttons between the screen and the media player controls that might be used for controlling the screen itself.

BTW, if you get the high-res photo, zoom in on the 9 key on the numeric pad. Instead of reading "Pg Up", it's "Pp Up", and the extra 'p' looks like it's been scraped at. Um, Logitech, I think you'd be forgiven if you got caught Photoshopping a typo on a press release photo. :-)

Re:Images here

[Anonymous Coward]

The "Pp Up" key is for older guys that are finding more and more things to be difficult during their advancing years.

Re:Images here

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a small purse, just a little misspelled.

Re:Images here

[CProgrammer98]

Hmm a rocket scientist you say? then u should know... Google images is your friend

Re:Images here

[Moofie]

I know what a reticle is. I don't know what a "receticle" is. Is that a cross between a reticle and a testicle? Because if it is, I don't want to know about it.

Re:Images here

[CProgrammer98]

he's talking about the mouse sensitivity buttons, they're not programmable

Re:Images here

[plover]

I was actually thinking of the HUD in Red Orchestra when I wrote that. It was really cool to have a game that didn't tell you too much: that the magazine is 'heavy' is useful and realistic, that it has 4 rounds is way over the top for what a Russian soldier had to deal with. It's a great minimalist interface, and very "period" for that game.

I still don't like things like enemies get "red" names and friendlies get "green" names. If names are even necessary (and they're not, really) everyone should have a "white" name, and you better switch your Eyeball-IFF-Mark 1 to "on" before pulling the trigger. Of course, you can't really afford to turn off any options in a game situation. If you do, the time you spend identifying a silhouette is time your fully HUD-equipped opponent is using to place your forehead in his crosshairs.

Re:Images here

[CProgrammer98]

that is the funniest thing Ive read so far today. Make the images stop now please!

Re:Images here

[ibbey]

Not only that, but the 518 is the only mouse I've ever seen that actually requires a specific OS. The drivers won't even install on anything other then WinXP. It will finction as an ordinary mouse, and any the features that are implemented in hardware work (three resolutions, browser forward & back), but you can't reprogram any of the buttons, and you can't override the sensitivity in software as they advertise. I really don't care about software sensitivity, but why on earth can't you reprogram the buttons?

(Yes, I know the resolution buttons aren't programmable-- I'm talking about the forward/back & application buttons)

Mice in games

[Alex P Keaton in da]

I thought mice mostly just did mazes.
I wonder what this will mean for consoles. Will consoles have a keyboard ever, so those of us who enjoy usinga keyboard for game play can emulate the experience in our living rooms?

Display?

[TGK]

The article mentions a built in display - configured by the player to show in game information or data from an outside application.

Two questions:

1 - Who really looks at their keyboard that much during a game session?

2 - How are they pulling data from a game engine? Is this assuming that developers will build software for this keyboard system for major releases? That seems presumptive.

Re:Display?

[plover]

It's not an unrealistic presumption. It's a case of "if they build it, support will come" or more likely "if they sell a million, support will come faster."

The press release said that several games will release support for it yet this year. And even if they don't, given the abilities of the community I expect third parties will write mods for the biggies, such as WoW and UT 2K4. Even if Blizzard provides native WoW support for it, I suspect other WoW plugin authors will rush to add even more functionality.

Regarding your other question: who looks at their keyboard? I don't know, I painted mine black a couple years ago :-)

Re:Display?

[MindStalker]

I'm assuming they arn't its probably just a programmable LCD. You could program it to show your computer temperature, most likly its going to show you keybinding info for some sort of hot switch binding system. Though there obviously will be an API that a game could use, I doupt you will see many use it. Though it probably wouldn't be hard to hack in some system to pull scores or such from most major games.

Re:Display?

[kfg]

Using the latest advancements in computers to create a heads down display.

Ahhhhh! Technology marches on.

KFG

Re:Display?

[HD Webdev]

1 - Who really looks at their keyboard that much during a game session?

The gamers who lose most often and have plenty of time to order these products online.

All kidding aside: As far as FPS games go, there isn't any time for players to look at a keyboard. And, in most games, a command like 'stats' or web-based statistics show how badly a player is doing.

Re:Display?

[zoso21]

It would be great for a listing of reagents and other critical things for WoW without having to open up your inventory. Hunters can see how much ammo they have left. Not critical or anything but nice to have.

Re:Display?

[shuufoxie]

"The 18 programmable "G Keys" allow you to execute macros--like casting spells in World of Warcraft--with a single button press" But... Can't I do that with the keybord I already have? ^^;

Re:Display?

[kfg]

I'm not disputing the value of information, just questioning whether display on the keyboard is the appropriate solution.

Wouldn't displaying this information on your monitor, a pure sofware solution, be superior to buying a new keyboard with yet another display, out of the line of your normal vision, be superior?

KFG

Re:Display?

[Grym]

Exactly.

Why even bother with buying an expensive keyboard to get programmable keys for gaming when you can buy a USB device that aleady does just that. Plus, you can do custom, complex, toggle-able macros with the software that comes with it--very very handy. I swear by mine.

-Grym

Re:Display?

[Bios_Hakr]

BTW, this is considered very bad form in the MMO world.

I have a Nostromo Speedpad. I looked up the spell timings for my Mage. I programmed an "alpha-strike" key on my speedpad that:

Selects closest enemy.
Wait 5 seconds.
Press "1".
Wait 2.4 seconds.
Press "2".
Wait 1.8 seconds.
Press "3".
Wait 2 seconds.
Press "4".
Press and hold "S" for 8 seconds.
Press "5" three times.

I can run into an area and "alpha-strike" mobs all day with little effort.

Re:Display?

[Anonymous Coward]

In some of their actual keyboards, there is a lcd that displays when someone writes you a message in MSN Messenger.

I suppose it will come with pre-configured software for the most common games.

The last time

[pickyouupatnine]

.. I owned a Logitech mouse.. and it literally caught fire when I played too much Unreal Tournament w/ it. If I ever get back into serious gaming.. I'm gonna blow up one of these.. damn.. been a while since I got excited about a mouse.

Re:The last time

[Stibidor]

Are you sure you know the meaning of the word "literally"? Your mouse literally caught fire? I hope you used it to roast s'mores or something. :)

Re:The last time

[James_Aguilar]

I call BS.

Re:The last time

[jimbolauski]

You know they have optical mice with fans in them now this should stop your hairy palms from catching fire.

Re:The last time

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, yes, you're a very smart person with too much free time on their hands.

His mouse figuratively caught fire, and you are literally a pedant and a jerk.

Re:The last time

[Mornelithe]

'Dude man, I have to tell you the funniest story, man. I was really fucked up the other day and I was hanging out with Jeremy and we were both super fucked up. And we went back to Jeremy's apartment; we split this bar of Xanax, okay? And then he put on that viking hat, you know, that he won at Vegas, you know, then he started dancing around and dude... it's was so fuckin' funny... dude I literally shit my pants!'

Re:The last time

[prockcore]

david cross rules.

Re:The last time

[Tekzel]

Hes a jerk because he called the guy out on an absolutely idiotic and incorrect use for a word?

From my perspective you are the jerk.

I use....

[KingBahamut]

A Razer Chameleon and an Elumix Black. Was going to go with the Logitec Mouse....but the Razer looked nicer and IMHO the buttons were easier to get to.

http://www.razerzone.com/
http://www.eluminx.com/product.asp?pid=5

Both seem to suit me just fine.

Re:I use....

[gid]

I've seen that keyboard before, it would be kind of nice since I work in the dark sometimes. But what's up with the weird key placement? I couldn't use it for that reason alone.

Re:I use....

[KingBahamut]

I got used to it after a while. That keyboard moves really fast, its built like a laptop keybaord or at least thats what it feels like. The other one I have is this one -- https://store.frogpad.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD &Product_Code=FPWHUSB20R&Category_Code=ALL&Store_C ode=FrogStore

That one took a lot of getting used to , but once I got to it, worked like a charm, great gamer keyboard.

Re:I use....

[ewhac]

I found the Elumix to look kinda cheesy and have a lousy key feel. I myself prefer the Saitek Gaming Keyboard. It doesn't look as much like "rice" (personal opinion, of course), and has a vastly superior, solid feel. By comparison, I've found nearly all Logitech keyboards to feel far too mushy for my liking.

I, too, am a Razer user, ever since the original Boomslang; currently using a Diamondback. Darned fine products.

Schwab

Re:I use....

[Mozk]

I'm using a Razer Boomslang right now. It's a really good mouse for gaming, but I definately need a new mouse pad. This one messes up the sensitivity.

I need a keyboard too... One that recognizes multiple key presses. Currently I can't move forward and right at the same time or something.

Onward Logitech Soilders!

[Talez]

I've always had Logitech gear. In fact, until my Mighty Mouse I was 100% logitech. Basic 2 button + scroll for the rest of the family, Mouseman Dual for the PC, MX-510 for the mac.

I will be getting a G7. G5 doesn't have enough buttons for me. G15 is definately on the "buy on release" list. Sadly I'm in Australia so I might be waiting a while :(

Re:Onward Logitech Soilders!

[Anonymous Coward]

So how's the mighty mouse for gaming??? Don't hold back!!! Gamers need to know!!!

Re:Onward Logitech Soilders!

[Schmiggy_JK]

The G7 and G5 have the same amount of buttons, one is just cordless... the G7... So am not quite sure what you are talking about. However, I do think its a mistake for logitech to get rid of the "mouse5" button, as I know alot of my fellower CS players use the heck out of it.

Re:Onward Logitech Soilders!

[Talez]

I have a trillion coreded mouses that have a trillion buttons so I don't need another corded mouse to replace the ones I already have.

I don't have a cordless mouse yet and I might be looking at one for my PC. Especially with the rechargable Li-ion packs. Since I don't have a better cordless mouse the G7 is a possibility.

Re:Onward Logitech Soilders!

[Talez]

Crap. That's why I still use my MX-510 for games.

Once you've pushed the button down you can't push another down so for games that use 2 buttons at once its useless.

Re:Onward Logitech Soilders!

[Anonymous Coward]

They didn't. By the looks it's two buttons with one depressor. Push toward the front of the mouse or toward yourself for the normal forward/back behavior you're used to. Which coincide with mouse4 and mouse5 in Quake/Half-Life.

Impressive

[mikeophile]

They support screaming fast 20g moves up to 45 inches / second...and even higher, depending upon the surface.

Will they support 20G impacts when I throw the damn thing against the wall after I am fragged by a LAN hacker for the n-th time?

Re:Impressive

[bigwavejas]

Yeah I hear ya, the keyboard in this video definitely wouldn't qualify: http://www.compfused.com/directlink/650/ hehe

Re:Impressive

[WhatAmIDoingHere]

That's one of the great things about the LAN envrionment. You can walk over to them and kick their ass in person.

Re:Impressive

[HD Webdev]

It was said: They support screaming fast 20g moves up to 45 inches / second...and even higher, depending upon the surface.

To which mikeophile replied: Will they support 20G impacts when I throw the damn thing against the wall after I am fragged by a LAN hacker for the n-th time?

You are asking the wrong question.

It should be, who will win in a Device vs LAN hacker's head contest?

Re:Impressive

[oe1kenobi]

If you want to see the rest of the stats on this and all the other optical mouse sensor chips, check out my Optical Mouse Sensor Review site.

Also, I've seen these mouses pictured in the SetPoint device files for the past few months. I'll add them to my UberOptions mod (to enable all the extra features Logitech dumbed-down) when I get the chance.

The headline mentions mice, but...

[DarkFencer]

The headline mentions new logitech mice, but the article linked is all about new gaming keyboards.

Either way, the LCD coming from the keyboard sounds like a great idea. While gaming full screen, the LCD could act like a display for your systems mp3 player. You could see/cycle through what is playing like you would on a standalone mp3 player, without having to Alt-Tab out of your game.

Re:The headline mentions mice, but...

[zkn]

Logitech already has potential for this with the numpad in their DiNovo line. As far as I know however they don't use it for anything other then showing currently playing and "hello -user-" when it connects. It's kind of a waste.

The g5 optical mouse got a raving review

[BlackCobra43]

from ExtremeTech. It's fairly comprehensive. Read it here : http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1847008 ,00.asp Notice the perfect 10 score.

Re:Mice in games

[TGK]

This gets a lot of discussion on Slashdot and other sites of similar ilk. We're oft told that the reason we don't see a keyboard and mouse with a console is that both of these things benefit from the desk that they typicaly sit on.

You're right - for a FPS or a strategy game, a mouse and keyboard are, by far, the best interface (yet).

I just wonder how true that bit about the desk being necessary really is. I've played with gyro mice (expensive, yes, but mostly because they're a niche product) and have pretty much always been able to use a keyboard on my lap -- so why don't we see more keyboard/mouse interfaces becoming available for the couch environment?

MSFT is supposed to be playing the XBox 360 as a home media device -- perhaps a keyboard will become standard issue with that.

g5 and g7 mice

[arkhan_jg]

Pictures of the g5 mouse

And guess what, it's shaped for right handers only. You'd think that it'd be possible to invert the casing, and produce a mirrored device for the 15-20% or so of the target market who can't use a right-handed gaming mouse. (I can handle it for general use, but I need my primary hand for precision work)

Still, looks like I'll be buying the new razer copperhead when it comes out shortly, similar features but suitable for lefties.

Re:g5 and g7 mice

[patvan]

The article touches on this:

TS: Something that many people mention to me is that there aren't very many mice designed for people that are left-handed. What does Logitech plan to do about that?
As a left-handed gamer, I understand the issue. There is definitely an opportunity for a left-handed gaming mouse, and we will continue to explore that. That being said, we have nothing to announce at this time.

Re:g5 and g7 mice

[jagilbertvt]

As a left handed person, I don't see what the issue is. I always use mice w/ my right hand. In fact, I can't use a mouse w/ my left hand very well at all. I highly doubt there are 15-20% of people who actually use the mouse on the left hand side. Probably closer to 1 or 2%.

Re:g5 and g7 mice

[Heian-794]

The real problem is that despite the recent wave of right-hander-only mice, makers don't make much of an effort to specifically mention that their product is unusable by left-handers.  It's not always obvious from the pictures, and these days when looking at mice it's one of the first things I think about.  I must have spent five minutes just looking for photos with enough detail to see whether or not I shuold stop considering this mouse before reading any further.

Right handers can safely buy just about any product knowing that either it favors them or it's neutral, and that if it were for lefties, it would be so labeled.

Come on, mouse makers.  Surely the benefit gained from RH users with your RH-only designs is outweighed by the grousing, boycotts, and bad publicity that also come with them.

Re:g5 and g7 mice

[flutkatastrophe]

I believe that they should have designed the mouse for both right and left handed people, but....the molds for the injected plastic parts alone for this mouse probably cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. They would also need to have a completely different circuit board, to reposition the button to the other side.

It's simply not economically feasible to create two versions.

And being a righty, I'd prefer that the mouse conform to my hand rather than just being a symmetrical lump of plastic like the Razer.

Re:g5 and g7 mice

[Sketch]

I am right handed, but due to limited space when I built my first dedicated gaming box, I had to use my left hand to have enough mouse room for gaming. Now I always game with my left hand, even though I usually use my rigth for mousing around other apps. I have no problem switching back and forth for normal use, but for gaming, I completely suck with my right hand. I suppose if I practiced enough, I could switch, but then I'd have to switch my keyboard layout as well.

Re:g5 and g7 mice

[bigbigbison]

I'm a lefty too and I don't see any advantage to mousing lefthanded. ..although that could be why I suck at online gaming!
I also play guitar righthanded. I really don't see the point in using your dominant hand for strumming

Re:g5 and g7 mice

[NotAnotherReboot]

While it's true that 15-20% (I don't know the real figure) of the population may be left handed, I kind of wonder if that is really the percentage of the market that needs left handed mice. I am left handed and learned early on to bite the bullet and just use it right handed. It saves the trouble of having to move the mouse to the other side of the keyboard, switch button assignments, and deal with right-handed shaped mice.

In fact, I am so used to using the mouse with my right hand (despite being left handed) that I actually have more trouble using the mouse with my left hand. And I am an avid FPS gamer. I suspect there are other lefties that work the same way.

Re:g5 and g7 mice

[bedouin]

I'm left handed too, and until recently, I never realized that there were lefties who actually moused with their left hand. I'm kind of curious as to why some lefties end up using their left hand to mouse and others don't. Some possibilities I've thought of are:

• Space limitations: Many desks are designed in a way that seats the keyboard to the far left, and leaves room for the mouse on the right. Even if lefty intuition said to use your left hand, it wouldn't be possible, so lefties force themselves to learn.

• Priority of tasks: I'm pretty ambidextrous; I can use either hand for most tasks, with the exception of handwriting. However, tasks that require a bit of extra precision go to the left hand. The question would be, what do you give more priority to, the keyboard or the mouse? If you grew up using text-based operating systems, then it would be natural to give keyboard navigation a priority. I wasn't using a GUI full-time until 98 or 99 perhaps.

• Left click/right click confusion. The other day I was fixing a machine, and was cramped in a way that I couldn't keep the mouse on the right. The only spare mouse I had was an Apple Pro Mouse I keep in my laptop bag, which has only one button. Surprisingly, I felt pretty comfortable using the one button mouse on the left, since there was no mental confusion about a left and right.

• Imitation. Perhaps lefties continuously see the mouse on the right, and assume it's the most 'correct' way to use one.

• Forced by design. A more recent phenomenon, the Logitech mice, force one to use the right hand. However, I can remember keeping my Commodore 64's mouse on the right side, perhaps because the joystick ports (to which the mouse connected) were also on the right. Apple has perhaps recognized this by putting USB ports on the left and right sides of their keyboards, and more recently, in the center.

A couple questions though. When lefties use a laptop, do they navigate the trackpad with their right or left hand? I use my right.

Who has witnessed people who use two hands to use a laptop trackpad?

What effect does when one started computing and in what environment have on this?

Re:g5 and g7 mice

[arkhan_jg]

To be fair, it depends on where you draw the line as to whether you count someone as left handed - figures vary from 5% to 30%, as there's some variation across countries too. It also varies across tasks, as as you've found, lefties often learn to manage in the right-handed world and mostly adapt.

I find I'm pretty stuck in situations where I have to use my right hand for precision or fine control. I can handle a pair of right handed scissors, or a right-handed mouse for general use, but FPS'ing I just need that better motor control on my left, despite my attempts to manage otherwise.

As a result, I always have to go for 'universal' mice like the razer diamondback, which is a nice gaming mouse frankly. It'd just be nice to have shaped left-handed mice. Imagine if you'd never had to switch over to your right hand. You may well be better with your right now, but your left would probably be stronger given equal practise.

Re:g5 and g7 mice

[Cyno]

I bought a Razer gaming mouse. Its awesome.

I like symmetry.

Would have got a logitech if they didn't suck. Like their speakers, tho.

Re:g5 and g7 mice

[xstonedogx]

I'm a lefty and I use two hands when using a laptop trackpad, although I have the scrolling feature set up for right-handed use, and in general prefer the right even though I have better accuracy with my left.

I have better accuracy with my right hand when using the mouse, but I switch hands often, depending on what I am doing. I use a right-handed mouse, but the design is such that it's not entirely uncomfortable to use left-handed (although I've only had the mouse about a month and I find myself favoring the right more often). Physically using the right is easier, but my brain is more comfortable using the mouse on the left, if that makes sense.

IIRC, left/right button confusion went away very quickly when I first started switching between left- and right-handed mouse use.

I definitely favor the keyboard.

Re:g5 and g7 mice

[Anonymous Slacker]

I'm a right-hander, but also somewhat ambidexterous (handwriting leftie is still quite slow and not very accurate).
As for the touchpad, I use both hands (all fingers and/or thumbs, whichever is closest). I have been using this on my work laptop for the past 4 years now, and I find it quite comfortable because it allows me to keep my hands close to home-row position for touch-typing (I never could get the hang of those eraser-button pointers, even though my laptop has one of those as well).

For my home setup, since I have two sets of keyboards/mice at my computer desk (multiple computers), I have one mouse on each side, and the keyboards in the middle (one is a Logitech wireless set, so the keyboard is easily moved out of the way).
Both of my mice in this configuration are Logitech right-handers, but the wireless one isn't as bad about the ergonomics, so it is configured (in the Windows mouse properties for it's computer) for left-hand use (the fwd/back nav buttons are awkward to use with the ring finger/pinkie, but that's about it).

I have been using modern desktop computers for about 10 years now (high school, college, and beyond). Before that, my dad had previously had a Franklin (old Apple II clone) when I was in elementary/middle school, which I don't remember it having a mouse.

I will mouse whatever way is most comfortable for me at the time in the space constraints, but I prefer to use keyboard navigation whenever possible as I don't like having to look down to reposition my hands after having moved them from their usual touch-typing position.
One of these days I'm going to have to find myself a good touchpad for my desktop PC's.

Re:g5 and g7 mice

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm left handed but mouse with either hand. Left at work and Right at home. I started doing this when I had some problems with tendinitis. I found that I had fewer strain related problems in my hands and wrists if I spread the abuse around.

I bought the MX518 recently to replace a flaky MS IntelliMouse on my home machine. I mouse right-handed there, so it would be great, right? Wrong. My Mac wouldn't even boot when the mouse was installed and there are no supported drivers. I know that I should have checked before, but what mice don't support the Mac these days? It's a Mighty Mouse for me then.

Re:g5 and g7 mice

[dragonman97]

Go figure - I'm right handed, but mostly ambidextrous these days, and am reading /. using my mouse with my left hand, with the buttons oriented as normal. It just works better on my desk that way, and gives me fewer RSI issues (I even find that I use the mouse better with my right hand when holding it straight whilst to the left).

Get a console...

[Psionicist]

I'm getting very tired of all the hardware manufacturers designing their products "for gaming". We have ABIT and their "Fatality" product line, D-link creates "gaming routers". Almost all the mice and keyboards from the larger manufacturers are targeted for gamers. We have Creative with their gaming sound cards. And all these mouse pads for gaming. Not to mention the super-responsive "designed for gaming" TFT-monitors. And the kids who seriosly belive AMD processors are "designed for gaming".

Seriously, get a fucking console. Where are the hardware designed to be reliable? Or the hardware designed to look good, and not like sci-fi props from 30 year old movies? What about hardware for real work? I never thought I'd say this, but it appears the only serious large manufacturer (excluding the likes of APC, Tandberg etc of course) this day is Apple. Everyone else apperantly tries to appeal to high school kids.

Re:Get a console...

[Spodlink05]

The average age of a gamer is 30.

Re:Get a console...

[plover]

Because two groups of consumers drive the absolute high end of home computing: the gamers and the porn surfers.

And porn surfers don't need a two-handed keyboard.

Re:Get a console...

[DeathFlame]

Simple. Very simple.

They go where the money is.

Besides, you should be happy that the gamers are the ones craving such devices, pushing the manufacturers to go further with their technology. Because eventually that stuff trickles into the "Work" stuff.

Kinda like the military research becoming everday items eventually. Someone has to push the envelope.

Re:Get a console...

[sesshomaru]

Besides, you should be happy that the gamers are the ones craving such devices, pushing the manufacturers to go further with their technology. Because eventually that stuff trickles into the "Work" stuff.

And occaisionally "work" designs that have been discontinued will be brought back for "gaming."

Logitech Gaming Mouse Review

Re:Get a console...

[Anonymous Coward]

You realize of course that without the 'high school kids' and their gaming products, the hardware that you use to get 'real work' done would be half as fast and ten times more expensive right? Would you rather pay $2000 for a video card from 3dlabs circa 98 or so, or $200 for an nvidia, on which to run your 3ds and your maya?

Besides, what exactly would you rather have on a mouse designed for 'real work'. Less buttons? Poorer tracking? Thicker and more obtrusive cords?

Re:Get a console...

[blueh1ro]

While I agree that some game oriented products are just for show, most of them are just the "expensive" versions that no "regular" consumer is going to splurge on. Heck I remember playing Quake with my Microsoft Intellimouse "with scrollwheel", compare that to the MX500 I use here at work. But wait! An MX500 is a gaming mouse! Guess what I use it for............ Photoshop

Yep, I use my MX500 at work and my MX510 at home for Desktop Publishing more than gaming. Try using a crappy dell mouse all day for photoshop, yah, you'll be begging for an MX5XX style mouse within a week. And I don't have a console for one big reason, it doesn't use a MOUSE.

Honestly though, I suck at console games because I'm not very good with the controllers, I'm just soo used to mouse control. So be happy with your console, just don't expect me to give up my mouse (especially my Logitech) for a stinky gamepad.

On that note, I need to get back to work

Re:Get a console...

[vertinox]

You also forgot Pirates. It's a bit easier to pirate computer games than it is for a console.

Re:Get a console...

[Solonas]

Lets state the obvious here first: You don't know what you are talking about and You aren't a PC gamer. If you were you would understand why companies cater to gamers. For some gamers, they are willing to spend extra for the increased performance that these products provide. There are no such products for a console to increase performance after it leaves the factory. Consoles don't provide the best graphics or amazing sounds that you can get out of PC games. If you played any FPS games, you'd understand... Personally, I am not going to pay $70 for a mouse, but more power to the people who will. Also as a side note, The AMD FX series processors are essentially meant for gamers. http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/ProductInforma tion/0,,30_118_9485_9488,00.html/ From the AMD site

The first 64-bit PC processor, in a class by itself, designed specifically for gaming.

I'd recommend a little research into PC gaming before you go trashing it. You might actually learn something.

Re:Get a console...

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF?

Get a console? Do you even have a clue about the average age, income levels, etc. of gamers today?

I am 35, a professional who does own a game console...and it SUCKS compared to a good gaming rig.

Re:Get a console...

[imboboage0]

1. I dunno if you've ever udes an MX510 or 518 on a nice ousepad, but it has GREAT fuctionality. Yes, I am a gamer myself, but everyone I know will be damned if it aint the most comfortable mouse they've ever used. 2. Creative's sound cards are good fro evrything, from the casual music listener, to the music studio developer. Try using one. You'll hear the difference when paired up with good quality speakers. 3. AMD processors aren't 'designed for gaming.' But then again, neither are Intel's. AMD just does it better. 4. Console? If I wanted a flame war, I'd go to Nintendo's forums. 5. It isn't designed to look like 'Sci-Fi.' It's designed to work reliably under all conditions, even low-lighting. They're also designed to be comfortable and functional, hence the extra programmable keys.

Re:Get a console...

[mrjackson2000]

my MX518 "Gaming Mouse" is very good for CAD, the best i have ever used.

Re:Get a console...

[CharAznable]

> I'm getting very tired of all the hardware manufacturers designing their products "for gaming". Yeah, because there's a great, untapped market of joyless, condescending bastards. Seriously, I'm a 27 year old professional with disposable income, and I'm glad I can get good gaming gear for the PC, because I despise console gaming. And I know I'm not alone in this. High school kids can't really afford expensive video cards and stuff like that. It's not like there isn't serious non-gaming gear out there. You'd think that someone who does "real work" would know where to find it.

Logitech/Belkin combo deadly

[southpolesammy]

Belkin's Nostromo SpeedPad n52 on the left hand, Logitech's G7 mouse on the right hand, serious frag death for my opponents....

Re:Logitech/Belkin combo deadly

[nb caffeine]

I already use a belkin n50 (original speedpad) and my logitec mx700. Its a great combination

Re:Logitech/Belkin combo deadly

[GeekTW]

What if Belkin actually put a mouse on the Nostromo? That way you could game with one hand, and eat cheesy snacks with the other.

Re:Logitech/Belkin combo deadly

[ewhac]

Belkin's Nostromo SpeedPad n52 on the left hand, [ ... ]

Bah! Belkin are evil; they never apologized for that wireless router that hijacked HTTP requests to their co-marketing site trying to sell you parental blocking software.

And besides, the Thrustmaster Tacticalboard completely 0wn5 the n52.

:-),
Schwab

Links?

[Chaotic Spyder]

G15 Keyboard
G7 Mouse
G5 mouse

SGI - ahead of it's time.

[Anonymous Coward]

*The keyboard also features a gaming mode switch, which, when turned on, disables the Windows® key so gamers wont get dropped out of a game if they accidentally press it.*

Hey, My 7 year old SGI keyboard has that feature implemented permenantly!

Re:SGI - ahead of it's time.

[gid]

I have a nice DIGITAL keyboard without the windows buttons, but I personally like the action of my logitech keyboard (with the windows key pryed off) better.

Feature request please !!

[Anonymous Coward]

can you make it any uglier ? i want more thick plastic mouldings and 43.5 extra buttons
perhaps you could add a giant display that tells the time in 14 languages too, i want it to run on 8 lead acid batteries (which should last about a week if you can) and it should be able to impress my visitors from 200yds

thanks
your friends, the consumers

This is a huge scientific breakthrough...

[Malor]

From the writeup on the new mice:

"The low weight of the mouse allows fast moves and zero inertia[....]"

In other words, they've quietly developed an inertialess mouse. The biggest physics breakthrough ever, and they're wasting it on a stupid gaming mouse. Quick, somebody call NASA!

Re:This is a huge scientific breakthrough...

[Malor]

Oops, sorry, I should have included a link to the press release on this amazing new technology.

Re:This is a huge scientific breakthrough...

[digidave]

You assume that space exploration and the revolution of personal and mass transit as well as civil engineering, not to mention the upheaval of our understanding of physics and the universe, are more important than Counter-Strike. I beg to differ.

Re:This is a huge scientific breakthrough...

[Amouth]

personaly i like my heavy mouse.. ~4oz because it hurts when i hit people with it..

Re:This is a huge scientific breakthrough...

[Refrag]

And everyone always complains about Apple's marketing hyperbole. At least it doesn't break the laws of physics!

Re:This is a huge scientific breakthrough...

[telbij]

If your wrist is so frail that this makes a difference to your gaming performance then you really need to leave the dungeon and go see a physical therapist.

People still use mice? Trackballs are the future.

[Anonymous Coward]

I never understood the appeal of mice. It is an annoyance to be forced to drag your hand back and forth across a desk all day long.

Re:Apple did it...

[bemenaker]

No you clod, it is because of the razor.

Ergo?

[guice]

Where's all the ergonomic keyboards gone these days? :( /Avid ergo keyboard fan. //Completely unable to find *any* good non-MS ergo keyboards.

Re:Ergo?

[Daath]

Same here :( I am using an old ergonomic keyboard from Lite-ON / Tech - it's the best damn keyboard I've ever tried, and it tilt up from the front, not the back like other keyboards...
I was really depressed to find that they stopped making them - I even tried contacting the main offices to hear if they had any old ones laying around I could buy...
I just love the ergokeyboards... I had one from MS but that stank...

Re:Ergo?

[minerat]

Give this man a medal. No one ever puts out ergonomic keyboards anymore. I REALLY want an ergonomic buckling spring keyboard, but alas the IBM M15 is nowhere to be found.

Re:Ergo?

[Anonymous Coward]

I too am an avid fan of ergo keyboards--and share your pain...i wrote the company that makes the z-board and they told me to keep an eye out on their product line this fall..said they might have something up their sleaves that would peak my interest.

I'm not holdong my breath but that would be pretty sweet.

Re:Ergo?

[Zinglon]

I type literally all day long at work as I'm busy -making- the games people play.

Honestly! I have a Logitech keyboard at home and bought one of the MS Comfort keyboards with the padded wrist rest. I like the padded wrist rest, but a few months of that had my hands aching, me wanting to toss it against the wall since it kept 'losing' keypresses since wireless keyboards apparently suck horribly like that, and me begging to drag my old MS Natural Pro out of the closet and take it back to work. Trust me, at work most of us have natural keyboards. We know better.

That said, yeah, every time I go to a store I search for them but sigh as there's almost no Natural-style keyboards in store displays. However, Logitech does make the Cordless Comfort Duo, but I don't trust it since it's cordless. Don't even ask about those bluetooth keyboards like the Di Novo. Totally useless if you type fast. We gave a couple of those away after trying them out. Idiotic.

Keyboards are getting more and more pretty and convenient, but they seem to be less and less useful to actually type with. Argh!

Oh well, I'll stick with my old Natural until I can find something better.

So yes, I know the pain. ;)

At least mice seem to be more and more refined, lately. That G5 alone looks sweet. Might have to try it out.

bad Ergonomincs

[vjmurphy]

I own a few Logitech mice based on the same shell, and they don't fold a candle to the comfort of the MX1000 Laser Mouse shell.

The 510 518 and G5 shells have buttons above the scroll wheel that are hard to use and two thumb buttons that require moving your thumb up (or up and back) to use. As a result, I barely use any of those buttons.

I was hoping that the new Gaming mice would use the MX1000 design, only corded, but it does't look likely.

Still, I'm likely to try this one: the weight cartridge looks interesting. And they seem to have addressed the thumb button somewhat. But I still want a corded MX1000 style mouse.

Re:bad Ergonomincs

[imroy]

I agree about the thumb buttons. I have an old Logitech M-BA47 from around 2000. It has a nice thumb button right where I rest my thumb (i.e low). When I first hooked it up, XFree86 mapped it as another middle button. I was happy with that so I never looked into changing it. It works great for me under Linux. Pasting text or opening links in new tabs is a matter of simply pressing with my thumb. And I never liked pressing down on the mouse wheel because it can turn unless you're careful about applying the pressure (or at least that's what I'm thinking about whenever I have to do it on other mice). Pressing the thumb button is so much easier.

Then earlier this year, my mum took pity on me still using a non-optical mouse and got me a Logitech MX500 mouse. Bleh. For a start, I had to hunt around a lot of web pages to figure out how to map the buttons the way I like. Then I realised the stupidity of having two (not one) thumb buttons, making them thin, and placing them up on the rim of the mouse. So now I not only had to move my thumb, I had to be careful to hit the right one, and I had to apply more pressure because they were much smaller. Think about it, the left and right mouse buttons are nice big pads you can rest your fingers on, so why make the other buttons so small and hard to hit?

And to top it off, the optical sensor simply didn't work on my black laminated desktop. I know, I could get a mouse pad. But it would get in the way and I've gotten used to having my mouse glide across the surface. So I gave it to my brother and went back to my trusty old non-optical mouse with the better thumb button. He doesn't need the middle mouse button nearly as much in windows. He also needed a mouse pad though :P

Re:bad Ergonomincs

[vjmurphy]

"I agree about the thumb buttons. I have an old Logitech M-BA47 from around 2000. It has a nice thumb button right where I rest my thumb (i.e low)."

Ah, the M-B447 is one of the best mice ever made, I'd say: I'm actually using one at work currently and you are absolutely right: the thumb button is in the perfect position on that mouse.

I'd also love to see a mouse button on the pinky-side of the mouse, though I suppose the natural squeezing action would also tend to make me mash the thumb button.

Still, I don't see these new Logitech mice as being all that innovative. They certainly are evolving, but I was hoping for a little more.

Re:bad Ergonomincs

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm still waiting for a laser mouse based on the old mouseman design. You could easily add a wheel between buttons 2 and 3.

Great ergonomics on that mouse. All these new mice taper to a point. How the hell are you supposed to use all three buttons at the same time when you can barely fit two fingers on the mouse?

Re:bad Ergonomincs

[milkman_matt]

I agree about the thumb buttons. I have an old Logitech M-BA47 from around 2000. It has a nice thumb button right where I rest my thumb (i.e low).

My M-BL63B dual optical is like that too, at first I didn't care for having a thumb button at all, then I realized it made a good general purpose function for whatever I found myself using, double clicking for the most part.. Until 10.3 came out, then the thumb button was assigned to expose's f9 function and has become the standard for switching windows (much better than alt tab) quickly and easily.. I just wish I had more now ;)

Re:bad Ergonomincs

[Anonymous Coward]

Two thumb buttons. You know, for performing both forward and back. Oh and doing things in games more complicated than Quake 1. And way to whine about having to xmodmap the mouse in X, as if that were somehow unusual for mice with as many buttons as the MX500 has. Plus you come across as being too stupid to use a mouse, using phrases like "figure out" to refer to determing which button is which when they're different sizes and in different locations.

And the reason the buttons are above the thumb rest is so that you don't accidentally click them when moving the mouse. Seriously, you should really learn how to use your hands. By the sound of it you aren't exactly FPS material.

Mice? Aren't those what elephants are afraid of?

[Sinju]

I've probably used Logitech products since I started buying my own speakers, mince, and keyboards. They have good products and have always worked well for me. I got the MX1000, the first real laser mouse not one of the opticals that use a light, and love it! The mouse is awsome for gaming and everything else so if they can make a normal mouse that is good for gaming then something that is made specificaly for gaming MUST be good.

Compatability and coding

[Iriel]

This means three things for me:

1. I'll be getting the keyboard, at least.

2. I'll probably have to sacrifice a goat to get all the keys to work through my KVM switch.

3. My Linux script to make all the keys functional is going to take a good deal of tweaking from the Logitech Elite I'm using right now.

I can't wait...for the first one anyway. ;)

Re:Mice in games

[Total_Wimp]

a product such as this can make a real difference. I also get better leverage by using a mini keyboard and putting the mouse up on the keyboard surface rather than using the mouse tray as shown. I've loved the logitech mice I've had over the years, but their keyboards are so large that I don't hassle with them. Logitech, if you're listening, you should make something like the Nostromo N52, but wireless if you want to get a little extra of my money.

I don't know much about mice and keyboards for consoles, but PC gaming in the livingroom rocks. My home theatre speakers are many times better than my computer speakers and gaming on such a big screen is just plain fun.

TW

oh yea

[drummie zeb]

best $20 ever spent. 4 years strong.

Missing Something

[Enzo the Baker]

So they have mice designed for gamers, and now a keyboard designed for gamers. When will they get with the program and design a joystick especially for gamers?

Re:Missing Something

[Allelophagia]

I'm still waiting for games designed for gamers.

Re:Missing Something

[JFitzsimmons]

ZING! I agree. :(

Re:Missing Something

[TommydCat]

Yes.. all these joysticks designed for the corporate environment just don't address the specific needs of gamers.

Re:Missing Something

[Rallion]

All joking aside, I still haven't laid hands on a joystick that I prefer to the MS Sidewinder.

Full-Speed USB!

[NewStarRising]

Don't miss the Full-Sped USB!
"The G7 and G5 are Logitechs first computer mice to leverage full-speed USB. "

Now checking on http://www.everythingusb.com/usb2/faq.htm , we find that
"Full Speed" refers to USB 1.1, while High-Speed (Or "Hi-Speed") refers to USB 2.

So Logitech are bragging about their USB 1.1 mice?

Re:Full-Speed USB!

[Roguelazer]

If you read the page you linked to, you'd note that most mice and keyboards are 1.5MB/s ("Low-Speed"). So, yes, I guess they are bragging about 12MB/s vs 1.5MB/s.

As an aside, when will people learn how to spell? "Hi" does not mean the same thing as "high". Also, "thru" and "donut" are not words, no matter how much a certain "Drive-Thru" "Donut"-centered restaurant might want us to believe.

Re:Full-Speed USB!

[NewStarRising]

Oh, I agree totally about the spelling - that is why I included the "nu-speek" version.
But language changes, and Donut, thru, nite, hi and other spellings will come to be the "usual" way. Wether we like it or not. (sic)

As another aside - I am from UK, where we still spell with those "u"s in the middle of words - the "proper" way. Where did the "Z" in your nick come from? Surely not a corruption of the well-known acronym:
Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation?

8o)

(Please note playful intentions)

Re:Full-Speed USB!

[Anonymous Coward]

USB 1.1 = An older USB Protocol
USB 2.0 = Newer USB Protocol

Low Speed USB = 2MB/s
Full Speed USB = 12MB/s
Hi Speed USB = 480MB/s

NOT all USB 2.0 devices run at High Speed! USB 2.0 simply means it uses the newer protocol which allows for High speed. You can have USB 2.0 devices that can only go up to Full Speed maximum. USB 2.0 devices do not necessarily need to be Hi-Speed.

Basically Logitech is saying they're the first to use Full-Speed USB (12MB/s). Previously USB mice used Low-Speed (2MB/s). I haven't read the specs, but it is possible that these mice might be USB 2.0 and only Full-Speed. This is still better than previous mice which were either 1.1 Low-Speed or 2.0 Low-Speed.

Re:Full-Speed USB!

[neuroking]

The problem is that doughnut is waaay too close to Dog Nuts - Something I don't want in my mouth. Especially creamfilled or glazed.

Re:Full-Speed USB!

[Anonymous Coward]

lol, n1

Re:SHUT UP!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

All your keyboards are belong to us.

Why bother?

[Jett]

I have an MX1000 and it is the greatest mouse I've ever used. I use it in games all the time without problem. Also, it's cheaper than this "gaming mouse" and it doesn't run on 2.4ghz so no worries about it messing with my WAP. So, why pay more for this mouse when you can get the MX1000?

Projection Keyboards

[lostandthedamned]

I don't think i'll bother until they get round to releasing these http://www.alpern.org/weblog/stories/2003/01/09/pr ojectionKeyboards.html

Re:Apple did it...

[willCode4Beer.com]

What?
with all those buttons it would be too confusing...
it might encourage developer to build for more than one button...
it would violate some esoteric design esthetics...

Very nice except for one thing:

[MtViewGuy]

Logitech unwisely removed the second button from the G5/G7 mouse pointers on the left side.

The reason I like the MX5xx series of mouse pointers is the fact you have those two buttons on the left side of the mouse, which makes moving forward and backward through documents and Web pages easily. Logitech could have corrected the issue of too many buttons on the left side of the mouse pointer by making a setting in their software driver to essentially "lock" the functionality of both buttons to the same function in games, while still having seperate functions for each button running business software and Web browsers.

Re:Very nice except for one thing:

[Anonymous Coward]

i agree, i have those buttons set for forward and back for when i do web browsing. it's very nice to be able to easily bounce back and forth from links.

Re:Very nice except for one thing:

[Kelbear]

I have a better solution, in my opinion at least.

Download LogiGamer, it's free.

Now, you get the program-specific button configs that logitech should have given us in the first place on the mx500/mx510s, I think the mx518s finally have it though.

Set it to activate a browser button configuration when you're in that program. Now, set button4 to the Shift key. Set button 5 to the close button.

Now when holding button4, you can use the scroll wheel to navigate back and forth. Hold button4 and left-click to open a page in a new window. Use button 5 to close windows. Far more streamlined than closing windows manually. It's a great help when going through a ton of windows.

If you use tabbed browsing, find the keyboard shortcut for closing a tab and bind a button to that instead of the close window function:P

Re:Very nice except for one thing:

[Schmiggy_JK]

Agreed, this is a mistake on their part. That extra button was great for fps gaming, and document browsing. Now if the button were say pressure sensitive per front side and back side of the button, that work, i.e. push the front of the button for forward or "mouse4" and the back of the button for backward "mouse5"

Windows XP only

[ZeroConcept]

They should mention that if you want to use those you need Windows XP. I'm still using Windows 2000 and I don't plan to upgrade the OS for a mouse.

Same as new golf clubs?

[digidave]

If you ever watch golf on TV you've seen all the ads for the new technology. If you've ever seen anybody golf with the latest equipment you'll know it doesn't make any difference at all. I think gaming equipment is exactly the same.

Except for perimiter weighted irons, metal woods and graphite shafts, golf technology hasn't really progressed very much since Arnold Palmer first began playing professionally. New balls and club technology will maybe gain you a few yards off the tee.

With computer mice, scroll wheels and optical sensors were the huge breakthroughs. Laser is nice, but is not nearly as much better than optical as optical is better than a ball mouse. More buttons are ok, but often hard to reach at critical times. Tilt wheels are more gimmick than anything except for people with very wide documents. Wireless is not usually particularly useful, but some people like it.

So what is it that these new Logitech mice bring to the table that will revolutionize gaming? Would you gladly trade your scroll wheel for any one of these features? Probably not. Will you get more kills in FPS games? More items in MMOGs? More 'coffee' in GTA:SA? No, no and no.

The next revolution in pointer control may be when you don't need to use an imprecise limb for movement. Maybe contact lenses that point the cursor to where you focus your eyes. For mice, once you get it tracking well (optical/laser) and you cramp all the useful buttons where they are easily reachable (LMB, wheel, RMB), you have pretty much hit the limit.

Re:Same as new golf clubs?

[bsquizzato]

If you're really serious into FPS games (as in, making money off it, and believe me that's happening; See The CPL, ESWC, WCG) then over the last year or two mice have really advanced.

First of all the new ergonomic designs simply make it a lot easier to make large mouse movements across a big pad since your fingers are positioned somewhat on the sides instead of totally over the top. Most big-time FPS gamers use a lower sensitivity and a large mousepad surface.

Second, the optical sensors in the mice have advanced as well, for example with Logitech's MX518 supporting 1600DPI as opposed to most 800DPI sensors. That makes every little movement you make much more accurate.

Whether it's really making a big difference at all in terms of aiming and skill, it's probably something that wouldn't be explicable by a gamer but you could just "feel" like the mouse is more responsive.

Re:Same as new golf clubs?

[Anonymous Coward]

As far as gaming goes even optical sensors aren't that big a deal. I just switched to optical and it doesn't make much difference - it's even worse in that the sensor measures movement at up to ~5mm above the mouse mat, compared to ~1mm for a ball. So you have to hold it higher when picking it up. The lower friction is nice, but friction never stopped me fragging someone before.

Scroll wheels and thumb buttons (when correctly placed, which most are not - I'm looking at you Logitech MX310) are huge improvements though.

Re:Same as new golf clubs?

[zkn]

Eyetrackers Aren't going to be big for gaming, it's to slow and annoying. Most gamers(FPS) don't keep their eyes on the maker because they need to keep track of what's happening.
With the splitsecond aiming they don't even really register their marker over the head of an opponent, they just "twitch" and shoot.
You won't be able to reproduce this in a eyetracker.
Gamers don't use an imprecise limb for movement, they use a very precise limb for movement. Calling it imprecise just shows that you aren't a gamer.

Re:Same as new golf clubs?

[SMitra72]

Maybe contact lenses that point the cursor to where you focus your eyes.

What if your cross-eyed?

Re:Same as new golf clubs?

[yitzhak]

The next revolution in pointer control may be when you don't need to use an imprecise limb for movement. Eye-follow technologies exist already, but when you complain that your hands are imprecise... well, you'd be surprised by how imprecise your eyes are. Your eyes are moving all the time, and even if you had very, very good control over them, I doubt you would ever rival the precision of physically placing an object at a point with your hand.

Any plan for improving their joysticks?

[Anonymous Coward]

The present 3D Extreme Logitech stick I own is less than 3 weeks old and ready to be exchanged. Glad I bought the merchants additional warranty!
    In the past year I've bought an Logithech Extreme 3D, Attack 3, Freedom 2.4 Cordless(refurbished), Saitek X45, CH Flightstick and Fighterstick. The only one that has consistently delivered quality performance is the Flightstick, which I've owned for over 6 months now. The Logitech sticks all didn't last two months. The Saitek is pretty good for flight sims, but one of the hats is now loose. Had it a bit longer than the CH sticks, the CH Fighterstick's hat went out and has a little slop in an axis.
    I had a MS Sidewinder 3D Pro, years ago. Longest running ownership I can remember. Just bought a new one on ebay and hope to relive that experience.
    Why doesn't anyone make optical sticks, anymore? Anyone know of an "ultimate" stick that won't let me down?

As someone who uses multiple languages...

[FreeUser]

Logitech definitely isn't the first company to consider a keyboard which can be used for gaming. I'm really excited about: http://www.artlebedev.com/portfolio/optimus/

Now THAT looks cool! As someone who uses multiple languages (English, German, a bit of French) and has to keep a piece of paper with keycodes attached when entering numbers in sexagesimal truetype fonts in openoffice, this keyboard would be perfect. Please say there will be ways to program the layout AND key displays under GNU/Linux. The help when using sexagesimal would be worth it alone!

Re:As someone who uses multiple languages...

[databyss]

They mentioned in the FAQ on their site that they will make the API available. So I assume yes.

Re:As someone who uses multiple languages...

[It'sYerMam]

Just as a side note, when you refer to using multiple languages, have you not tried using a multikey? By default on most Linux systems Shift-AltGr is defined as key which then enables certain combinations, e.g: (shift-altgr), A, " = Ä. Also, altgr-a = æ, altgr-o = ø and so on.

keyboard

[CaptnMArk]

I hope the keyboard doesn't have the f**ing f-lock.

Whoever invented disabling the function keys by default on new keyboard should just die.

The only reason I'm not buying a keyboard from www.pckeyboard.com is due to lack of USB support (I find most converters are problematic).

Re:keyboard

[RCSInfo]

Yes, I would cheer at the public execution of the f-lock inventor. Or the guy who made the f-lock disabled on boot with no way of changing it.

I have been hitting F5 to refresh the screen for as long as I have worked with Windows machines. Now someone has decided that F5 without the f-lock would be a great shortcut to close the window. What was wrong with Alt-F4? The function keys already served a function (hence their name). They did not need to be remapped.

Its also a little annoying when booting a PC and missing the Bios setup screens or Windows boot options because the keyboard boots up with the F-keys disabled.

Until the F-lock goes, I will not buy another Logitech or MS keyboard.

Re:keyboard

[Anonymous Coward]

Google will get you everywhere - here is how to disable f-lock, I use it for my keyboard.

http://www.mvps.org/jtsang/flock-e.html

Re:keyboard

[CaptnMArk]

Not really good enough. It only works after (windows) OS has booted.

I would really prefer a soldering fix.

I have been considering making some kind of circuit connecting the f-lock led and the key contact.

Re:keyboard

[despik]

Perhaps you could try the Matias Tactile Pro. Here's a review.

Mea culpa

[kfg]

And couldn't I have written that with superior grammar?

KFG

Re:Display? -- Gateway Programmable Keyboard

[ZahrGnosis]

"The 18 programmable "G Keys" allow you to execute macros

I can FINALLY throw away the gooey Gateway programmable keyboards I've kept for the last 12 years... hopefully. I don't know why hardware programmable keyboards ever went away. I'm hoping the programmable nature of this new keyboard doesn't require drivers, (causing Linux problems and whatnot) but I'm not terribly optimistic. Still, I'm hopeful... does anyone know for sure if the macro's are hardware or software based?

Yuck

[Gogo0]

I think the new keyboard looks like complete crap.

I will never let go of my 1982 IBM Model M in favor of some 2005 ball of plastic that weighs less than animals I have killed with the Model M.

Re:Yuck

[Gogo0]

Funny? =[

I golfed a mouse that was loose in our office with my Model M.

What's the tilt on that keyboard

[Cederic]

I recently bought a new Logitech keyboard. I had to send it back - the "zero degree tilt" made my finger stretch too far and it was hurting after less than an hour of use.

The new G15 doesn't (according to the product comparison feature on Logitech's site) have "zero degree tilt" but it was certainly looking horribly flat in the screenshots.

I need to test this one out in person before I could commit to buying it. Which is a big shame; it looks like a nice keyboard.

The mice look great too, but I don't see any compelling reasons to upgrade from my MX1000..

~cederic

Logitech website sucks.

[Fujisawa Sensei]

The images are small so can't see the kinds of details I want to see.

For what it's worth

[Windsinger]

Keyboard: http://www.clickykeyboard.com/

You can smash this keyboard with both hands, your head, and anything else and it will always work. Resists Sodas, coffee and cat hair very well too!

As for mice, I really am in love with the Razor Diamondback http://www.razerzone.com/, you can change sensitivity on the fly with the roller while holding down any button you chose. Plus it has a LOT of buttons, 2 on each side. Regardless if you use them all or not, it's nice to have them there, unlike the Logitech mouse here which has 1 (!!!) side button. Obviously they are NOT researching games very well!

New mice actually worse for FPS gamers

[Jan Brunner]

It seems like they increase the resolution with every generation while sadly neglecting the maximum speed.

The MX510 (800 cpi) is able to track up to about 3.4 m/s, the MX300, too (with raised USB polling rate at 400 cpi). The Razer Diamondback (1600 cpi) has a maximum speed of about 1.4 m/s, very probably as much as the MX518 (same or similar sensor, I couldn't measure it, yet). The article talks of about 45 ips (1.14 m/s) in those 2000 cpi mice...

I can't think of any good shooter player who would actually benefit from a resolution higher than 800 cpi but I know there are many who like to move their mouse faster than 1.4 m/s.

Raising the resolution by sacrificing maximum tracking speed is very easy: They can just scale the chip down and/or change the optics. It seems that they don't like to make a chip more complex (MX300, A2020 was the last big upgrade).

This is bad news for the gamers who got used to their MX510's speed and don't find anything else than "Ultra Gamerz 4000 dpi" with a max speed of 1 m/s when they need a replacement in a few years. Maybe someone clever will invest in a few MX510 and make a lot of money. :)

Re:New mice actually worse for FPS gamers

[Bitmanhome]

Ground speed isn't that useful. With a high-res mouse, you don't need the speed. What counts is pixels per sec, not meters per sec. So they boost the sample rate to give you speed, but then boost the resolution to take away m/s. You get to keep the pixels/sec, though.

I have the Razer Diamondback, and find that I'm physically unable to outrun the mouse.

Re:New mice actually worse for FPS gamers

[Jan Brunner]

We aren't robots. There's a reason why most players with a 800 cpi mouse use a sensitivity lower than what would be required to get pixel-perfect accuracy: They need it to be able to aim accurately enough in a short enough time. With a too high sensitivity, one can't aim efficiently (fast AND accurately), even if the settings technically still allow high accuracy when the player is given enough time.

Now, when playing with a pretty low sensitivity, one needs a fast mouse so he's not totally crippled in movement and can still turn around fast enough. Before there were fast mice available (MS Explorer 3.0 was the first one, AFAIK), the average sensitivity was higher because the drawback of a low one was still big.

Of course, not all players are created equal. When I say that no one profits of 1600 cpi compared to 800, this is from personal observation and there might well be some accuracy specialist somewhere that would like it. I just guess there aren't many of them.

BTW: I'm pretty sure you're able to reach the physical limits of your Diamondback but you have to do a certain experiment as the modern sensors notice when they lose track and don't "trip out" like the old ones but keep outputting the last known speed and direction until they are able to track again. Disable acceleration and use a low sensitivity on the desktop or in a game. Aim at some object (e.g. edge of the screen on desktop, pillar in game) and set the mouse to one side of your mouse pad. Now move it to the other side quickly and move it back slowly. If you didn't surpass the limit, the cursor/crosshair should be at nearly the same position. If you did, it will have traveled further than during the fast movement.

Note that there are other factors limiting aim speed in games than just the mouse: Without DirectInput (DGA input in Linux), the cursor can reach the sides of the screen. Doom 3 managed to limit the speed or stop the crosshair even with DirectInput/DGA when I last tried...

Know that I don't say the Diamondback is a bad mouse or that 1.4 m/s is way too slow. I tried out the Diamondback some time ago and thought it was quite good. I just wasn't able to do fast 180 degrees turns with my sensitivity (25 cm/360 degrees). My plan was to try to get the S2020 (MX510 sensor) working in the Diamondback but then I noticed the delay problem of the side buttons and didn't want to mod a mouse when there's still a chance that I might get a flawless one. I then sold it to someone who really wanted it.

Drivers

[BandwidthHog]

Wake me when Logitech's Mac driver is no longer worse than useless. I have a Logitech MX-500 and a Logitech keyboard festooned with extra buttons, but their software for Mac OS X is absolutely fucking atrocious; check reviews of it at versiontracker.com and macupdate.com, I'm not just being picky here. I use USB Overdrive for the mouse, but it doesn't handle keyboards, so I am unable to use any of the extra buttons on it. Logitech makes great hardware (okay, acceptable hardware), but if they can't get their shit together on the Mac platform, I'm going back to Kensington for the next batch of toys.

Re:Drivers

[Kelbear]

Heh, it's trash on the PC too y'know. I hate to admit it, but microsoft actually has the better software for keyboards/mice. Though Logitech's hardware side is nice, the software is utter crap.

They were ahead on utility and simplicity. Logitech packs in bloatware ads and looks like a cheap flash pop-up, and lacked program-specific buttons all the way up to the mx510, I can't say whether or not they've finally included this in the more recent products. Still, program-specific buttons were available on the first generation optical mice, and should have been basic to all mice thereafter.

Re:Drivers

[Barlo_Mung_42]

This is a gaming mouse and keyboard. You are not the target audience.

OT: Smart Person

[Stibidor]

How exactly do you define "too much free time," I wonder. And how did you arrive at the conclusion that I have too much of it? It didn't take me more than a minute to write that response, and not more than two to write this one.

Re:OT: Smart Person

[Anonymous Coward]

How exactly do you define "too much free time,"

Too much free time, n. State where one replies to anonymous cowards

Re:OT: Smart Person

[Stibidor]

I would mod your comment as funny, but alas, I am powerless to do so. That was a real zinger and it made me smile.

I suppose that by your definition, I definitly have too much free time, seeing as this makes twice that I have replied to an anonymous coward today.

I love logitech, too

[mc900ftjesus]

Why doesn't Logitech get as much press for making good mice, while Apple get tons of press for adding a button and a scroll wheel? It's like applauding the special ed kid for finally tying his own shoes at the age of 30, it's progress but it's what everyone else has been doing for years. Good job, Apple, way to tie your shoes. Good job, Logitech, way to get your PHD.

Re:People still use mice? Trackballs are the futur

[niskel]

Precision on a trackball leaves a lot to be desired... Thumbs just aren't as agile as an entire hand.

Spooky

[makomk]

It looks like Logitech's keyboard department are channelling the spirit of Apricot Computers.

Well, not quite, but...

Re:Mice in games

[Ironsides]

I just wonder how true that bit about the desk being necessary really is. I've played with gyro mice (expensive, yes, but mostly because they're a niche product) and have pretty much always been able to use a keyboard on my lap -- so why don't we see more keyboard/mouse interfaces becoming available for the couch environment?

Have you considered using a trackball? I sit the keyboard on my lap along with the trackball and have no problems that way.

As to why so few keyboard/mouse interfaces, it's all down to control. In standard FPSs, my left hand controls movement (I use all 5 fingers for this, including my pinky) along with weapon selection (when I don't use the mouse scroll wheel). My right hand controls aiming firing (only fingers unused are the pink and sometimes the ring finger). All k/m combined interfaces I have seen are for one hand. This makes it control harder, at least for me.

Re:People still use mice? Trackballs are the futur

[Ironsides]

Precision on a trackball leaves a lot to be desired... Thumbs just aren't as agile as an entire hand.

I beg to differ. I use the trackball all the time, including in FPSs. I have no problems fraging my enemy and controlling movement. In fact, I find it easier than using the regular mice as my arm does not get tired moving the whole mouse around all the time. During a 10 hour marathon of FPSing, your arm can get really tired.

Re:People still use mice? Trackballs are the futur

[Lumpy]

screw that . at the last lan party I was at a dude had a touchscreen setup. every place he touched the screen the shot was fired at. he got the idea from his Nintendo DS and wrote a wrapper to basically do mouse event moves to match where he touched so any game worked with it.

it rocked... he could shoot at 4 different people rapidly and was always pissing off the "uber" players with his advantage of dead on shooting coupled with his regular mouse.

Programmable G Keys

[GeekTW]

I just wish they'd offer a left handed version. Every time I start a new game, I have to go in and figure out how to map the keys that will work best for me. I've thought about getting a Belkin Nostromo and just using the keypad part of it, or the Saitek keyboard with an external keypad. But I've seen games that use more keys than either of these have. I know I'm not the only person to play games left handed. C'mon people, how about making a modular keyboard so you can move sections around to suit you?

Re:Programmable G Keys

[CProgrammer98]

here you go

High Quality

[TouchOfRed]

As far as logitech mice go, the quality has always been top notch. For gaming, the MX1000 is the best mouse I have ever used, extremely comfortable, long battery life, and very accurate

i bought a case of old logitech mice

[Hohlraum]

.. the logitech mouseman 3 button to be exact. Its got three large buttons on the top of the mouse (as wide or wider than your finger) and its kinda shaped like guitar pick. It was also re-marketed in grey and was the first logitech 'gaming' mouse. It doesn't have a scroll wheel and is ps/2 based. I bought a ps/2 to usb adapter which works great.

I use this for gaming because over the years came to map all FPS with:

fire = index finger
forward = middle finger
back = ring finger

i then use the arrows

up = jump
down = crouch
left = left strafe
right = right strafe

the other keys surrounding the arrow keys depend on the type of game. For a military call of duty type game:

right ctrl = prone
delete = iron sights
right shift = bash
enter = pickup
10 key #0 = next weapon
10 key #1 = prev weapon
\ = reload

for games like ut that have secondary fire i go with:

delete = secondary fire
insert = iron sights (assuming the weapon has sights)

and the others are something similar to the military lay out.

I know this layout sounds crazy but I can't play anyother way and love the ability to control directional movement entirely with my mouse hand. Maybe my brain is just wired differently.

The big problem is that i'm entirely useless with these new scroll mice when it comes to games. So I bought a wholesale pack of 5 of them a couple months ago because my original one was starting to get really warn out.

Now all they need is a left handed version..

[Victor Tramp]

of course.. left handed people don't USE mice to game right? oh yes.. and there are no left handed baseball players either, right? how about left handed golfers??

to hell with how nice Logitech's mice might be.. I'll never be able to use one..

am I a whiner? Can you find a mouse with the same quality as a Logitech or [shudder] Microsoft mouse that fits for the left hand?? No, you can't..

Re:Now all they need is a left handed version..

[zkn]

Sure I can.
Ofcause if you want it to be the same quality as Logitech og Microsoft I suppose you could clue som cardbord onto the side so you'r fingers will rest in an uncomftable position.
Copperback will most likely be better then or at the very least as good as the G5/7's.

Re:Now all they need is a left handed version..

[nutshell42]

Microsoft IntelliMouse Optical. Best. Mouse. Ever.

No, you can't.

AFAIK MS currently sells 3 or 4 different mice that are symmetrical. Apparently you didn't look very hard.

Re:People still use mice? Trackballs are the futur

[MorePower]

I hate normal trackballs for this exact reason. But I used to have a big trackball, the ball was like the size of a baseball. That thing was great! I set the sesitivity so that one push of the ball from one side to the other moved the pointer from the one edge of the screen to the other.
Set up that way, it worked exactly like a mouse (being big, you move it with the palm of your hand) with the added advantage that it could never fall off the edge of the mouse pad.

WHO CARES!!!!!

[McZiggz]

How could anyone even think about another keyboard knowing this OLED keyboard is coming out http://www.artlebedev.com/portfolio/optimus/ this is the future of keyboards.

Razer mice

[StupidKatz]

Ever since I figured out that my Microsoft optical mouse was the reason my view shifted randomly to the sky or my feet when playing CounterStrike, I've been paying attention to my mice.

My favorite mouse of all time was Logitech's Dual Mouseman Optical, primarily because of the thumb-button placement down low below the thumb. Shift your thumb slightly, and you hit it - no need to stop gripping the mouse with the thumb.

The Razer Diamondback has many people complaining about "squeaky" buttons, myself included. In fact, all the buttons feel "cheap" - they don't have the smooth, substantial feel that the Microsoft and Logitech mice do. For the price, just get yourself one of the current MX510 mice from Logitech, and you'll have a better-built mouse. :/

USB port on keyboard

[DoctorBubba]

I'd buy one of these just for the USB port. I have a 3 year old HP Pavilion with only 2 USB ports, both occupied. And if it helps my gaming, all the better. The backlit keys sound like a nice touch too.

Southpaws unite!

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually e-mailed Logitech regarding this issue, and asking them if it would be so difficult as to reverse their plastic molds. I told them they could even charge mark-up if they liked. I got an e-mail in return telling me that they had several universal mice that were available, to which upon my evaluation were unsuitable for gaming.

Re:People still use mice? Trackballs are the futur

[randyest]

Which game?

Re:People still use mice? Trackballs are the futur

[Durinthal]

Thumbs just aren't as agile as an entire hand.

How about your first two fingers, then? I've loved the two of those I've had for a few years now (only got a second one when we got a second computer), and they're actually great for FPS games. Only problem I've had is that I can't draw at all with it in Photoshop.

Toggles

[Otonotachibana]

This keyboard looks nice but I would buy the first keyboard that allows you to deactivate the caps lock, num lock, and scroll lock using a toggle that is not located next to buttons I use all the time. I have never seen a keyboard with this option but perhaps another magnanimous geek has.

Cordless mice are annoying

[ccccc]

Am I the only one somewhat annoyed by the move towards cordless mice? I tried one for the first time a few months ago (Logitech MX700) and found it way too heavy.

The thing actually made my wrist hurt after extended use, and switching back to a corded one felt like moving a feather afterwards. Sitting at a desk, is the mouse cord really that irritating to some people?

The plural of "mouse"

[Anonymous Coward]

It is an inanimate object, therefore the plural is NOT "mice," it is "mouses."

Re:The plural of "mouse"

[Godwin O'Hitler]

I tend to agree. Instinctively, "mice" sounds wrong. Mice are little furry creatures that walk into traps.

The problem is it seems to be a unique case. I can't find a precedent. Is there another animal with an irregular plural whose name is also used for an object. Goose? Louse? Ox? Man ... ah!

You could argue that we say walkmen rather than walkmans, so perhaps mice is right after all -- but it still sounds wrong!

F-Lock Key ELIMINATOR

[gabecubbage]

F-Lock Eliminator

Your complaint about the F-Lock key stirred up my own longtime irritation with it. It's the only thing I dislike about my MS Natural Multimedia Keyboard.

Realizing how many others were bothered by this prompted me to Google "F-Lock key" and discover this wonderful little registry hack. Note that there are several versions -- be sure to use the right one.

This works! A quick 30-second test of F5-Refresh and PrtScn image pasting have yielded perfect results. My function keys now behave like function keys regardless of the status of the [F] LED.

Now if only this worked when trying to hit F6 during SATA driver initialization in WinXP setup, and F2-activated BIOS access.

Thank God that's cleared up

[sharkey]

The company introduced the Logitech G15 keyboard, G5 and G7 G-Series gaming mice.

With names like G15, G5 and G7, I was thinking they must be part of the MX-series of products.

Flashback to horrible X-Files episode

[neuro.slug]

Did anyone read what the marketing department put on the LCD console?

Xerious: He's at the bunker.
Scum: I'm on it.
Xerious: Rally at me after.

Jesus tap-dancing Christ, who comes up with this stuff? I suspect it's the same people who wrote the FPS X-Files episode...

No GamePanel LCD Third Party Use

[ticklemeozmo]

Logitech has already commented that the LCD Keyboards are -=ONLY=- functional for games with support the GamePanel LCD.

Forget RSS Feeds, forget mail items, forget important IM messages or CPU info.

Call them to bitch: US +1-800-231-7717 Menu 1, Menu 1, Menu 2.

Re:No GamePanel LCD Third Party Use

[swv3752]

From thier press release: Out of the box, the LCD panel can be programmed to show information from other applications, such as incoming email alerts, CPU speed, or even media player information, without interfering with the game on screen. A software development kit (SDK) will be included on the installation CD, allowing gamers to write their own programs for customized information to be displayed on the LCD screen.

Sounds like it will definitively support CPU info and may support IM or RSS feeds or not but it can be added in.

Ergonomic? NIL!

[Hurricane78]

Come on logitech! This poor hand-crippler can't be all you're able to build... I will NEVER again buy such unergonomic crap. sorry, but carpal tunnel syndrome is no fun...

OT: The last time

[KingSkippus]

Yes, yes, you're a very smart person with too much free time on their hands.

His mouse figuratively caught fire, and you are literally a pedant and a jerk.

It was a fair comment. When I read the original post, I imagined (and still do) the guy playing some game when some hardware glitch caused the mouse to catch on fire. I doubt that if such an even really happened, it was directly because of his intense gameplaying session, but it still makes an interesting story and I'm actually a little bit curious if the guy really meant literally. I once had a Bay Networks switch literally catch on fire for no discernable reason. It's not that far a stretch for me to think that a mouse literally catching on fire would be odd, but well within the realm of the possible.

I guess the question that's burning in my mind (pun only slightly intended) is: How the hell do you know that the original poster meant figuratively and not literally? I don't see anything that indicates that he was being metaphorical. At least the replier asked the question instead of just making the assumption.

And how is this guy being a pedant and/or a jerk? By asking for clarification in a jovial and unassuming kind of way? Pedantic would be pointing out that you switched pronouns in mid-sentence (...you're a very smart person with too much free time on their hands.). Thank goodness I would never stoop to such low levels. Though I don't find his comment particularly modworthy for funny, I also don't see it as particularly asinine, either, and I don't see him trying to convey the impression that he's smart or the original poster is stupid. From what I'm reading, that seems to be an MO limited to you. (Oh, and me, but I admit that I can sometimes be a real ass to people being real asses...)

And you, with your unwarranted belittling reply (which is officially longer than the one you are complaining about), are telling him that he has too much free time on his hands? Give me a break.

I don't care if you mod this offtopic post down, but for the love of god, please don't mod it up!

Re:OT: The last time

[Anonymous Coward]

This "guy" is being a pedant and a jerk because the majority of people are familiar with the "literally" malapropism, so that there's very little added value in pointing it out. But I suppose that you support his (because you know the writer's sex, eh?) or her little exercise in personal humiliation.

In that spirit, I would like to point out that you are also being a pedant and/or a jerk because the sentence is grammatically correct, but you're too stupid to realize it (hence, strike the pedant).

Let me illustrate:

You are a .

  = person with too much time on their hands.

  = person with too much time on your hands.

the former stands alone regardless of the introduction [I am a, You are a, Bill is a]

the latter makes no sense in a majority of cases.

Why? Because the subphrase "with too much time on ... hands" modifies the noun "person", not the pronoun "you".

Now suck it.

Re:OT: The last time

[KingSkippus]

You know, if you just hadn't bothered to reply, I wouldn't have thought badly about you. After all, we're all victims of periodic mistakes once in a while. Hell, if you look closely, it's entirely possible that I've misspelled a word or two in this reply. But you're just so wrong and so indignant about it that you've managed to make a pedantic person like me giddy with delight. I knew a guy like you in college that I still love making fun of to this day. Your name isn't Randy by any chance, is it?

You are a person with too much time on their hands is grammatically correct, but is semantically incorrect unless the time that the "you" to whom you are talking has is on some third party's hands.

As a point of illustration, consider both of the following sentences about my neighbor:

He is a person with yellow paint on his house.

He is a person with yellow paint on their house.

According to your logic, since "with yellow paint on (whoever's) house" modifies "person," both of these sentences must be correct. However, if the meaning of the sentence is that my neighbor has yellow paint on his own house, the second sentence is clearly incorrect and the sentences are not interchangeable. (Like yours...)

And thank god we've got people like you to let us know when we're being pedants and jerks. For what it's worth, I'm only a jerk to people being jerks. (Check my posts if you don't believe me.) As for that guy, I'll bet if you hadn't pointed it out, he would have never had the epiphany and made the life change that he undoubtedly made upon reading your scathing review. Oh, and he is a guy, not a girl, and for the record, he seems to be a pretty cool one from what little I know about him. I may not be the smartest guy in the world, but I was smart enough to figure what the writer's sex is. (Makes it kind of easy when he posts his name and picture on his blog.)

Now suck it.

Ah, now I see your point. I hope that sentence isn't supposed to be accompanied by any sort of gesture, because then it would really hurt my feelings. I'm sorry, if you had made that compelling argument to begin with, everyone would have seen how futile being right can be to someone like you. Oh well, I'd love to continue, but I think I'm going to go make a few truly insightful posts before the night is done. Or, maybe I'll just go defend some more pedantry against jerks. You posting in any other threads?

Re:OT: The last time

[Anonymous Coward]

As a point of illustration, consider both of the following sentences about my neighbor:

He is a person with yellow paint on his house.

He is a person with yellow paint on their house.

According to your logic, since "with yellow paint on (whoever's) house" modifies "person," both of these sentences must be correct. However, if the meaning of the sentence is that my neighbor has yellow paint on his own house, the second sentence is clearly incorrect and the sentences are not interchangeable. (Like yours...)

However, if the meaning of the sentence is that your neighbor is an individual member of a group in which each of the members has yellow paint on their house, then the second sentence remains both grammatically and semantically correct. Fortunately, I know the meaning of the original sentence, I wrote the original sentence, and I encoded that meaning within the grammar of the original sentence. Argue what's there, not what you wish was there.

But congratulations, you have proven that a tortured rewriting of the sentence can cause the possessive pronoun to change. You have also shown that you cannot grasp the meaning of a sentence, which is defined by its objective grammar and words, not by a subjective attempt to devine the state of mind of the writer.

BTW, the correct and original sentence pair is

He has too much time on his hands.

He is a person who has too much time on their hands.

The additional language "is a person who" is completely unnecessary in the first senctence, unless you're vainly trying to prove that you don't quite grasp English writing. The additional language makes sense in the second sentence, because of the common collective "people who have too much time on their hands."

Oh well, I'd love to continue, but I think I'm going to go make a few truly insightful posts before the night is done.

If it's the sort of insight diplayed by your lengthy analysis of the signatures of Congressmen at http://skippus.blogspot.com/2005/07/three-letters- from-congressmen.html then by all means, sally forth and display your genius to the world.

Moron.

Re:OT: The last time

[Anonymous Coward]

Oops.

"He is a person who has too much time on their hands", should have been "He is a person with too much time on their hands". The additional verb changes the phrase in the original sentence into a clause. Tsk. I could be accused of cheating.

You know, if you just hadn't bothered to reply, I wouldn't have thought badly about you.

That's nice. Apparently you think badly of Randy, and I am not Randy, so I'm understandably indifferent to your opinion. Only 6.5 billion more potential guesses.

Re:OT: The last time

[KingSkippus]

Is this really that hard?

You said yourself that their qualifies person. Person is singluar, their is plural. Therefore, there is no pronoun agreement in number, and the sentence is incorrect. As I pointed out, the sentence could be correct if their refers to some unnamed third party group of people, in which case their doesn't qualify person.

I assume, and I am right (it doesn't take a mind-reader, and no matter how much you insist otherwise, you're not fooling anyone), that you meant that the original poster has too much time on the original poster's hands. In this case, the only wiggle room you could have gotten is if you had argued that the correct sentence is You are a person with too much time on his hands, or to be more gender-neutral, You are a person with too much time on his or her hands. This would agree in number, gender, and person with person in a generic sense of the word. "You are a person with too much time on your hands" is correct because person as an antecedent isn't generic; it refers to a specific person, you, which justifies usage of the second-person possessive pronoun your.

If you had said, "Pedants are people who have too much time on their hands," you would have been right, because their (plural) qualifies people (plural), and indirectly, pedants (plural). Of course, that sentence is semantically different and, as I said, not interchangeable with the corrected original sentence.

you have proven that a tortured rewriting of the sentence can cause the possessive pronoun to change

This is just, for lack of a better term, crazy talk. What are you smoking, anyway? I don't care how tortuously you rewrite a sentence, the possessive pronoun doesn't change unless its antecedent changes. Your hands are your hands, not his hands, not her hands, not their hands, not our hands.

Seriously, call your local high school English teacher. Then again, make it a college English professor, because too many high school teachers are incompetent, and knowing my luck, you'd get one of the stupid ones. True story: I once had a high school teacher who, when I got into an argument with an idiot of a classmate over whether there were 50 or 52 states in the United States, said, "Well, I don't know, really..." To add insult to injury, I was in a history classroom full of textbooks, none of which contained a simple list of the 50 states. The next class, I brought in detailed documentation that I was right, and it was all I could do to keep from commenting on how sad I think it is that someone who educates our children doesn't even know that there are 50—and only 50—states in the Union. Hey, just out of curiousity, how many states do you think are in the Union? That wasn't you by any chance, was it? (Guess number two...)

Anyway, if you don't believe me, then maybe you'll trust the literati at Emory , Purdue, or the writers of the American Heritage Book of English Use . Now please, stop making yourself look so foolish. I wish there were some way to agree on a disinterested third party to hold a large wager in escrow and settle this matter once and for all, because I am 100% certain that you are 100% wrong. Again, on the offhand chance that anyone else is reading this silliness, your grammatic illiteracy doesn't make you an idiot, because we all make stupid mistakes sometimes. Your relentless efforts to justify yourself in the face of obvious wrongness is what makes you an idiot. Hey, wait a minute, you're not George W. Bush, are you? (Guess number three...)

Moron.

If by "moron" you mean

Re:OT: The last time

[Anonymous Coward]

Apparently it is that hard. "Their" is also used in modern American english as a gender neutral singular possessive pronoun. Your continuing failure to grasp this idea is tying you up in knots.

And no, you assume wrong, because despite an EXCEEDINGLY clear explanation of exactly what was ment, an individual member of a group in which each of the members has too much time on their hands (their referring to each, not members), you can't quite wrap your mind around it. This failure to distinguish between a qualitative decription (have too much time on your hands) and a class identification (are a person with too much time on their hands) is a greivous character flaw, and you should seek immediate professional help.

As to the rest of your drivel, define a state. There is 1 State, the United States. There are 50 "states" that have Congressional representation, however there are also a number of United States territories, including Guam, Micronesia, and the Northern Marianas that have had civilian rule, with legislative, executive, and judicial bodies since 1950 (Guam), 1979 (Micronesia), and 1986 (Northern Marianas), so that they too qualify as political states.

But you insist on simplistic answers, so I'm sure that the number 54 will simply piss you off. You should have specified states admitted to the Union.

Anyway, if you don't believe me, then maybe you'll trust the literati at Emory , Purdue, or the writers of the American Heritage Book of English Use.

I pick Purdue.

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/general/gl_ nonsex.html

"Using the masculine pronouns to refer to an indefinite pronoun (everybody, everyone, anybody, anyone) also has the effect of excluding women. In all but strictly formal uses, plural pronouns have become acceptable substitutes for the masculine singular.

EXAMPLE Anyone who wants to go to the game should bring his money tomorrow.

ALTERNATIVE Anyone who wants to go to the game should bring their money tomorrow."

Wow, an acceptable switch between "his" and "their". I would claim it as a victory except that I am certain that any acknowledgement of "his" is going cause you to renew your rant about "implied pronoun objects" and other smelly crap.

Re:OT: The last time

[KingSkippus]

I'm glad you picked Purdue, that was one of my favorites:

...pronouns should:
1. AGREE in NUMBER
If the pronoun takes the place of a singular noun, you have to use a singular pronoun.
...
The words EVERYBODY, ANYBODY, ANYONE, EACH, NEITHER, NOBODY, SOMEONE, A PERSON, etc. are singular and take singular pronouns.

Everybody ought to do his or her best. (NOT: their best)

(Capital letters are theirs, emphasis is mine.)

I won't bother explaining yet again that the pronoun in your original sentence is not indefinite since it specifically refers to "a person" that you defined, you. Since you have the insane notion that just because you thought it meant something correct makes it correct, you would probably argue that 2 + 2 = 7 is mathematically correct because you "wrote seven while meaning four."

Instead, I'll point out that the document you cited wasn't written by Purdue, it was written by the National Council of Teachers of English. (Remember my comment about how with my luck, you'll get one of the stupid ones?) I checked their Web site to find a little more information about who they were and where this document you cited came from. The full version is posted here, and I do wish that Purdue hadn't shortened and/or paraphrased it. Regarding the section you quoted, it says:

Use of the singular they/their form. This construction is becoming increasingly acceptable. However, classroom teachers need to be aware that state and/or national assessments may not regard this construction as correct.

Also, the purpose of this document is for use as a guide to gender-neutral writing. It is not about correct grammar. In fact, the writers give the following as their stated purpose:

These guidelines offer suggestions for language use that will open rather than close possibilities and that speakers and writers should consider when engaged in communication activities.

Excuse me, but just because incorrect structures <airquotes> open possibilities </airquotes> doesn't make it any more correct than you are.

So given the choice between every reputable grammar resource and one organization that I've never heard of before in a document designed to make people feel good about themselves and that even admits that what they said isn't really considered correct, I'll stick with the former. I have no strong feelings against the NCTE, but if you look at their site, it's painfully obvious that they are not about education, they are about educators. They should stick to giving out Doublespeak Awards instead of grammar guidelines designed to encourage students to write anything, correct or not.

But hey, congratulations, you dug up one source designed to accommodate people like you who can't write. You go ahead and believe what you want to believe. Don't let being wrong stand in the way of boosting your misguided esteem, it's the American way! If you want to follow the fringe and look like an idiot to everyone else, I wouldn't even dream of stopping you.

See ya,
KS

P.S. My favorite quote from the site with the full version of the document: "[This document is] a guideline approved by the NCTE Executive Committee and found to be consistent with NCTE positions on education issues." Ha! That's what I want to learn grammar from—guidelines written to be consistent with positions on issues. You really are George W. Bush, aren't you? I knew it, because I see how you're pushing science in the same direction!

Re:OT: The last time

[Anonymous Coward]

It's now clear that you're suffering from such a severe cranial-rectal inversion that only an authoritative academic beatdown will show you the error of your ways. Thankfully, I'm in the mood to oblige you.

I won't bother explaining yet again that the pronoun in your original sentence is not indefinite since it specifically refers to "a person" that you defined, you.

Yet again, "a person with" is an indefinite collective; therefore it is an object of the sentence that commands its own 'pronoun'. To further illustrate, there is a significant difference between

You are a person with your head up your ass.

and

You are a person with their head up their ass.

The first sentence reads poorly, because it's hard to imagine another person having "your" head up "your" ass. Rather, one would write or say "You have your head up your ass." But you can't even be bothered to research this common sentence construction, and for that I grieve. People with their heads up their asses are another well known group that should be accorded the fame that their collective reputation has built, yet you would deny them that recognition. Methinks its a defense mechanism.

Instead, I'll point out that the document you cited wasn't written by Purdue, it was written by the National Council of Teachers of English. (Remember my comment about how with my luck, you'll get one of the stupid ones?)

I also truly apologize for selecting one of your own supposedly authoritative sources as an aid in this fruitless attempt to teach you the propriety of the singular possessive "their". I was mislead by the fact that the literati at Purdue, as you noted, edited the document, republished it, and linked it to the very page that you're citing, with the clear intent to... teach improper English to the world? Gee whiz Wally, it seems that some of the literati at Purdue endorse the singular they/their for use by the rest of us. Could it be that there are people who don't agree with "your" people? Are they "stupid ones" merely because they don't agree with "your" people?

Let's review the thoughts of a few more "stupid ones":

Steven Pinker, one of the 100 Most Influential People in the World Today according to Time magazine, author of The Language Instinct, and a noted professor currently employed by a rinky dink institution called Harvard has written in the aforementioned tome:

Consider this alleged barbarism, brought up by nearly every language maven:

"Everyone returned to their seats." ... [or]

"If anyone calls, tell them I can't come to the phone." ... [or]

"He's one of those guys who's always patting themself on the back." [an actual quote from Holden Caulfield in J. D. Salinger's Catcher in the Rye]

They explain: everyone means every one, a singular subject, which may not serve as the antecedent of a plural pronoun like them later in the sentence. "Everyone returned to his seat," they insist. "If anyone calls, tell him I can't come to the phone."

If you were the target of these lessons, at this point you might be getting a bit uncomfortable..... Such feelings of disquiet -- a red flag to any serious linguist -- are well founded in this case....

The logical point that you, Holden Caulfield, and everyone but the language mavens intuitively grasp is that everyone and they are not an "antecedent" and a "pronoun" referring to the same person in the world, which would force them to agree in number. They are a "quantifier" and a "bound variable," a different logical relationship..... Since these are not real referential pronouns but only homonyms of them, there is no reason that the vernacular decision to borrow they, their, them for the task is any worse than the prescriptivists' recommenda

Re:OT: The last time

[mujahaddin]

Last time I checked, territories not yet admitted to the Union ARE NOT states, despite the fact that they are afforded representation.

I also find it amusing that in another post, you defend your linguistic skills by quoting a FICTIONAL CHARACTER. Yes, that's right, Holden Caufield doesn't exist. He's a character in a book. A character in his (not "their") teens, who has been expelled from school (I don't recall whether he was expelled for behavioral, or academic reasons, but generally these students are not known for their (not "his") grammatical prowess). And yes, Steven Pinker, J.D. Salinger, and AC's who post flamebait tripe, are wrong.

Re:OT: The last time

[Anonymous Coward]

Last time I checked, "states" were not necessarily territories of the United States admitted to the Union. But let's check:

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Diction ary&va=state

5 a : a politically organized body of people usually occupying a definite territory; especially : one that is sovereign b : the political organization of such a body of people c : a government or politically organized society having a particular character...

Yep. They're states. Loser.

BTW: Don't forget the Oxford English Dictionary, Jane Austen, Geoffrey Chaucer, Edmund Spenser, William Shakespeare, Jonathan Swift, Daniel Defoe, Frances Sheridan, Oliver Goldsmith, Henry Fielding, Maria Edgeworth, Percy Shelley, Lord Byron, William Makepeace Thackeray, Sir Walter Scott, George Eliot [Mary Anne Evans], Charles Dickens, Mrs. Gaskell, Anthony Trollope, John Ruskin, Robert Louis Stevenson, Walt Whitman, George Bernard Shaw, Lewis Carroll, Oscar Wilde, Rudyard Kipling, H. G. Wells, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Edith Wharton, W. H. Auden, Lord Dunsany, George Orwell, and C. S. Lewis.

Which begs the question, who the hell are you to correct all of these people and authorities?

Re:OT: The last time

[Anonymous Coward]

I also find it amusing that in another post, you defend your linguistic skills by quoting a FICTIONAL CHARACTER. Yes, that's right, Holden Caufield doesn't exist.

A-duh. Yet Steven Pinker chose that sentence as an example of a logical grammar, and that sentence was written by J.D. Salinger. You also seem to have ignored the OED and the ream of other literary figures that were included in the post.

And yes, Steven Pinker, J.D. Salinger, and AC's who post flamebait tripe, are wrong.

As for the cut against AC's, I hardly see how using a permanent and fictional Slashdot ID is superior. You haven't put your real life reputation on the line, and you're not a regular poster.

In the meantime, the real life academic and the real life renowned author are correct. It is the pseudononymous Slashdot poster that is wrong.

1000 buttons on KB, no extra buttons on mouse?

[pdo400]

That's just dumb. I've been waiting for ages for a decent 'gaming mouse' that added an extra button or two. I've tried the previous logitech ones but frankly they sucked. They were too small for my hand, the buttons didnt go all the way to the top of the mouse, the side buttons were terribly layed out and too small and the scroll wheel was hard to use as a button (though it was wonderfully precise for scrolling).

When my last mouse broke I grabbed my 7 year old logitech scroll mouse with thumb button out of my 'scrap heap' and was amazed. It's perfectly sized, the thumb button is far, far better placed than in the more modern layouts, and the scroll wheel is easy to use as a button. A mouse with this layout but with 2 more thumb buttons (each the same size as the current one but layed out vertically, NOT HORIZONTALLY YOU JACKASSES!), laser tracking, a slightly bigger scroll wheel with tilt, and maybe a pinky button would be 1000x better then most of the crappy mouse designs out today.

It's like with gamepads... the '2 rows of 3 buttons' of the early PC gamepad days is simply far superior to the '4 button diamond' used today. Thumbs naturally move side to side without reshaping the hand... but I guess the diamond looks cool so that's what we get now.

Finally, someone else does backlighting right.

[wootest]

I'm writing this on a PowerBook G4 with a backlit keyboard. The great thing about this backlighting is that the keys are opaque, but the letters are transparent, so it's easy to see the letters. On most other backlit keyboards, it's the letters that are opaque which isn't half as effective seeming as how you're generally drawn towards the light, and not towards the dark.

It's nice to see that Logitech gets this, too. In fact, the G15 backlighting will probably be even better seeming as how the keys are black (the Aluminum PowerBook keys are silver, so if you have the brightness turned down it can actually be hard to make out the letters - it has to be fairly dark for it to work).

No, thanks.

[SharpFang]

Single line enter, huge backslash. I thought these were meant to make typing paths in MS-DOS easier?
ESC instead of F1. Not a horror but may take some getting used to.
The bottom line of the G-keys will certainly get in my way while webbrowsing. (I tend to hold my hand there - Esc, ctrl+w, F3, tab, shift, ctrl, alt (scroll modifiers))
And last but not least - how durable is it? After all, the best keyboards for gaming are the CHEAP ones, because you need to replace them quite often...

Copperhead

[Emerl]

A friend of mine was berating me over the fact that it is impossible for a human arm to move fast enough that you would notice a difference between 800 DPi, 1600 DPi, and 2000 DPi. Well, that's not the reason I'm getting a next-gen mouse. I use a diamondback right now (couldn't stand the MX510 and 518's shape) and I have a few problems. First of all, the side buttons, unless you like screwing with your process priorities, have WAAAY to much lag, and require too much pressure to push down on the right side (if you're right-handed.) Both of these problems will hopefully be fixed in the Copperhead. That, and the ability to change the weight settings, not to mention the damn sexy looks make the Copperhead worth 80$