Slashdot Mirror
Company to Settle and Mine Mars
Rutgersen writes "Wired is reporting that a new startup is planning to colonize and mine Mars by 2025. From the article: 'The new company, 4Frontiers, plans to mine Mars for building materials and energy sources, and export the planet's mineral wealth to forthcoming space stations on the moon and elsewhere.'"
This is the kind of news I expect to read in 2005. Cool.
I hear this company is using the following computers:
6.8GHz 1TB RAM and 2TB HDD Laptop
Something about companies that have numerals in their names just makes them seem so reputable and trustworthy! I'm gonna sell my house and buy a butt-load of stock in them!!
i don't care
Today bleak despair swept across our fair world when it was revealed by the Council that the invaders from the evil blue planet have formalized their invasion plans, and may arrive in force in as little as ten years.
K'Breel, Speaker for the Council, stressed that there was no cause for alarm:
During the hyper-patriotic riot that followed, several Citizens were trampled. In its infinite Wisdom, the Great Council has posthumously decorated them as war heroes.
____
~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey
As the old saying goes, "if it's too good to be true, it probably is."
Still, it's nice to see someone attempting to hold to their dreams. And I'd dearly love to believe that they will carry out such dreams. Unfortunately, I (and many others here) understand what a massive undertaking it is to reach Mars at all, much less place a settlement there. Nearly every company in existance bases itself on existing infrastructures. This company would be able to leverage very little infrastructure, if any at all! (Especially if they chose to use the wealth of undeveloped space technology.)
I'd love to see their breakdown of exactly how they plan to make this mission happen, and on what buget they think they're going to acheive it on. Will they use existing rocketry technology, or will they develop their own? What are the precise economic goals? Will they be relying on any other efforts (e.g. the CEV) to achieve their goals? Just how do they think they're going to get approval for nuclear propulsion? (See the Jobs page under Engineering.) Do they have any experience in these areas, or are they making it up as they go?
No. There are far too many variables to count for me to take this on face value. There simply isn't enough info. Perhaps others could shed some light on their long-term plans?
Update: It looks like the partly plan to make their money by building the technological infrastructure themselves. According to this document, they feel that they could be turning a $29.7 million dollar profit by 2010, 15 years before they establish their settlement! This document supposedly shows their plan of attack, but it seems so preliminary that it suggests that the company plans to make it up as they go along.
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
Proof of an extinct alien life form then - fossilized bricks and dynamos.
Meta will eat itself
Great, there goes the neighborhood!
Someone should inform NASA so that they can remove any of their probes on the Martian surface. They cost a lot of money and I'm sure NASA would want to know if they are in danger.
I know the typical Slashdot geeks will wet their pants over this, but this simply isn't reasonable, guys.
Mine WHAT? The economics and physics of the situation are such that Martian material is valuable for using on Mars or in Mars orbit. That's IT. And even then, what does Mars have? The only really importnant thing is organic chemicals and suchlike, because otherwise it is boring mineral slag.
All of these future claims are just investment ballons floated to fleece the easily duped. There are plenty of technological problems associated with mining Mars including lifting the mined material off the surface. Bob Park wrote in his book "Voodoo Science" that it would cost more than $800USD to put ~$300USD of gold into orbit. His conclusion was that if gold were available in low-Earth orbit, it wouldn't pay to go get it. That is the first thing they teach in an economic geology course.
The materials on Mars are no different than here on Earth, only the abundances are different. So you mine a bunch of aluminosilicates and then what? Do these people realize how much energy it takes to break those bonds? Where is their proposed power source? The amount of solar energy reaching Mars is less than here on Earth. I hope they weren't counting on that source. Nuclear energy might be useful, but I don't know of anyone who has done a uranium assay of Martian ores. Are we going to ship power to Mars? How is that cost effective?
Unless these people have gone through a complete analysis of what it costs to go to Mars then I can't see how any of them can make any claim of profitability, let alone put a target date on their venture.
"Rocky Rococo, at your cervix!"
Will the company be called "Union Aerospace Corporation?"
Hmm... their real website seems to be slashdotted:
http://www.ua-corp.com/
This is one of the better ideas for a startup company I've heard, but then again I've spent the past 15 years or so on the Internet.
Slashdot Burying Stories About Slashdot Media Owned
if you're interested in knowing maybe you should read the article
So lets see... by that time, I'll be about fifty years old -- and if my wife has her way, I'll have about twenty kids or so, not including grandchildren. Do you think they'll take me??
Welcome to BS day on Slashdot. Although by 2025 they may well have a 6 gHz laptop with 2TB of disk space to take along.
StrategyTalk.com, PC Game Forums
Iron as far as the eye can see! I'm tellin' ya, it's the motherlode!
Too bad its not called the Gold Planet, or this might actually turn a profit.
Coding with assembly is like playing with Legos. Coding an application in assembly is like building a car with Legos.
well, at least in doom3 it does.
time is a perception of a being's consciousness
time is your 6th sense, the wierd ones are 7+
to Start Mining Operations of Uranus. Expecting first scouting missions to Urectum by 2015, establish base in Colonus by 2025. Don't know what the big stink is about.
my guess is they figure a joint Canada-EU trip will get there first, or possibly a joint Canada-China trip - if the latter, the first colony will most likely be named Mars Base Bethune. ..
I for one welcome our new Canadian space overlords and hope they have a fun trip to Mars.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
In my opinion we should look at mining the astroid belt in our solar system before attempting mars. There are going to be plenty of resources there, which will be much easier to send back given we dont have to contend a huge gravitational force like a planet. Not to mention we know so little about mars we dont know what kind of natural things we might be interrupting by mining it.
I hope they find some really big frickin' diamonds on Mars, because otherwise all they're likely to find is dirt, and the trucking costs getting it back here are gonna kill 'em.
In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
What did you say? I didn't read your response.
I'll bet their entire company plan was to make the funny news. Where do I sign up to invest?
Stasis is death. Embrace change.
RED FACTION
A company plans to do something, huh? Big surprise. Wake me up when they're actually on Mars. No point in getting ourselves all worked up whenever someone plans something.
why not just mine alaska ... it's just as big a wasteland and it's closer to home
I DID read the article. Someone please tell ME how they are going to achieve this.
Coding with assembly is like playing with Legos. Coding an application in assembly is like building a car with Legos.
Can be found here.
Anyone got a Martian calendar? I bet it says "April 1st."
Is a very good thing. That ultimately is what will drive manned space exploration.
I hope they find some really big frickin' diamonds on Mars, because otherwise all they're likely to find is dirt, and the trucking costs getting it back here are gonna kill 'em.
It's likely they'll find water, so if they mix it with the dirt, they can make mud pies and perhaps export Authentic Martian Pottery to wealthy collectors.
Then you too can own some Martian Pot.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Who Should Own Mars?
Think of it as the ultimate X-Prize. An entire planet for the taking.
The day anyone comes up with a viable business plan (which the guys in the Wired article, unfortunately, haven't done yet - and probably can't do so long as there are no private property rights in space), put me on the first colony ship of homesteaders.
if they actually make it there, they should skip mining. instead, spray-paint Mars grey! ...so that by the time space-tourism really catches on, the first tourism site will be.... dum dum dum
the death star!
Three rings for the Elven-kings in the sky
Rumour has it that a little known company, Union Aerospace Corporation (UAC), is also funding the project! Even then Budget was too minimal, so HTSC (harsh terrain survival kits) and duct tape were cut off the budget.
Even if they built their Biosphere who would want to live there? Sure, it would be fun to vacation on Mars just to see what it was like, and a ton of people with a lot of money would do that.. But to live there? Noway... You can't even go outside!
We take that for granted right now since most of us stay inside all day working, but to never be able to run around freely outside is terrible. Plus you'd have to stare at a red surface all day, everyday... No oceans, no greenery, just red rocks. Yuck!
Of course, the temporary ban will eventually become permanent.
Can't happen? It already has -- See Antarctica. No one owns it. Most of the countries of the world have a treaty not to exploit it.
Think they'll just say, "Let them try and stop us? We're there, they aren't. We have guns." Please. Get over your frontier fantasies. That was possible when you had frontiers with fairly hospitable terrain (even if harsh). With Mars, there's no way you can set up a self-sufficient colony right away. They'll HAVE to have support from Earth. If Earth wants to shut them down, they'll just stop the supply rockets from going.
Planetary colonization will NEVER happen in this solar system. Look to asteroids and colonies in space for your space travel future.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Here is how things turn out. So don't come crying to use when your astro robot dog goes psycho and destroys all your hard work and plans.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a fat white guy who is threatened by change."
C'mon guys, this news is WAY old. All of the plans have been on display for fifty years at the local planning office on Alpha Centauri.
"To lead the people, you must walk behind them"
I had planned to lead a Miners Revolution on Mars in 2026. That and deformable terrain ;)
"I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
-Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
Finally, what about the space elevator ?
My point is, reaching orbit is going to get cheaper, one way or the other
The Raven
For funding we will leverage our current investnments in the golden gate and brooklyn bridges, which we just bought off some guy.
Why are they going to start colonizing other planets the same year I start to hit a midlife crisis? I'll never make it off this rock at this rate!
Remember folks, slashdot doesn't have a -1 "disagree" moderation!
I hear RedPeace are going to be heading out to Mars with them.
This is me. Don't like it? That's unlucky.
I read the article, and I can definitely see them achieving this...
The theme park part that is:
One plan is to build a full-scale version of the planned Mars settlement and charge visitors to tour the "Mars Settlement Research and Outreach Center."
No France
As long as they need to trade with Earth for at least one essential items, Earth will be able to browbeat them into accepting copyright conventions.
I am so glad to see capitalism working the way it was intended. To him who gets there first is rewarded with the spoils. Yea! Lets rob another planet of it's resources and destroy it in our wake! I am sure it looks great to the corporate pillagers who take glee in the fact there are no current residents to sue them for the environmental damage they intend (sorry, inadvertently intend) to cause. Won't we ever learn from our past mistakes?
He does have a valid point. You shouldn't be able to make a post with all caps. Try it. It won't let you.
"I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
-Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
Who controls the spice, controls Dune. Take heed.
Just when I had hope that this cool new venture might hold water I read they were from Florida.... On a side note, the colonization of Mars makes sense, if we can turn a desert into the city of Sin, we can probably turn Mars into the Planet of Sin and turn a profit... 1). Colonize Planet 2). Open Casino's 3). ???? 4). Profit !!!
.... oh never mind
---- "Logoff! That cookie shit makes me nervous!" - A. Soprano
Take a look at Zubrin's "The Case for Mars" to get a clue.
Patrick Doyle
I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
On the Bios page, the company's IP attorney is listed before the scientists and advisors.
Maybe, it's nothing.
The corporation involved is Not the UAC, but a joint venture between ACME and OMNI. They hope to mine 20,000 credits of galaxite once they transform their headquarters.
The Alien generator is key. Once it is activated, they can start mining and use the materials to build huge subdivisions of identical homes on 1/4 acre lots.
In the meantime, we can continue to overpopulate the earth. You can buy an SUV that only gets 12 miles to the gallon. You can cut down all of the trees and pollute all of the water. Because by 2050, there will be a brand new home awaiting you on beautiful Mars!
be apportioning the land on Mars.
Due to a shipping error, they now have excess land/mines available for sale, and they wish to pass the savings on to you!
So, come and buy your own land/mine (landmine for short) now, for 3 easy payments of $1999.95!
Please provide your bank account information by posting it below, in good faith.
UMMU - United Martian Miners Union
I'm a bit of a Mars but so most of this actually sounds ok. Mining Mars and using local resources from the air, ground and frozen water. The only problem with the business model is this.
1. Sell tours of prototype settlement
2. ???
3. Establish 21st century East India Company
4. Profit!
You know what those ??? are?
2. Fund multibillion dollar launch and trip to Mars.
Even by Zubrin's rosiest estimates, it would be in the tens of billions and probably hundreds if too much government pork roots it way in. That's a pretty big "step two". Lots of tours perhaps? Lots of venture capital?
Don't get me wrong, I'd love more than anything to see it happen but, you know, the multibillion dollar trip...
Blaze a trail to the New World
It will never work! You need three ??? in step 3. Everybody knows that! sheesh! :P
Cool! Looks like NASA is not going to be the first to find life on Mars!
-- Cheers!
Didn't something somewhat similar happen at Biosphere? Isn't it an abandoned roach infested green house, now? Didn't something somewhat similar happen at Biosphere? Isn't it an abandoned roach infested green house, now? Personally, I think this is some sort of scamola. Or maybe the Church of Scientology is involved?
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
First, their CEO is going to declare himself King of all Londinium and wear a shiny hat. Then he's going to take a ride on a magic carpet to see the King of the Potato people, and beg for a pickaxe. Then, he will dig around endlessly until he finds the vault with a teleportation trap that leads to Fort Ludios. After slaying Croesus and a half dozen dragons, he'll take the money and invest it in a biotech company; that money will generate large amounts of biodata, which he'll exchange with Trade Master Greenish for a ride on the Inevitably Successful In All Circumstances to Mars.
On the surface of Mars, he'll carefully scour the surface, dodging renegade robots and flesh-eating insects. Eventually, he will find Torg, the robot that kidnapped Santa Claus, and use him to mine the planet. Naturally, the rock will need to be loosened first with the Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator. Piling it up, he'll take the return trip through a Gate Corps gate, reenter Earth's atmosphere in a spaceship shaped like a Galleon, (insert missing step here), and profit.
Son, a woman is a lot like a refrigerator. They're six feet tall, 300 pounds... they make ice... umm...
Are they beginning mobile suit production as well?
!@
Step 1: Develop small lightweight multi gigawatt fusion power source that can do the earth to mars trip and back with 20lbs of fuel.
Step 2: Create system for electric propulsion in outer space with close to 90% efficiency.
Step 3: Colonize mars.
The first person to land on Mars, and to live there some specified minimum duration (such as a year), and fight off all other would be owners, and to return alive owns the entire Red Planet.
It's more like "the first person to Mars with guns", so more like king of the hill than an X-Prize. Perhaps the X-Prise for Mars is enough arms to hold it.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Maybe this is just what we need to kick start the next phase of space exploration? With private companies attempting to do things like this, they aren't subject to the vast sea of requirements of government agencies. This era could be akin to the days of the old world explorers: Polo, Cook, da Gama, Magellan (although they were partially funded by govs). When people would go explore for the sake of the possibilities; and even though many died along the way, they were successful in finding new worlds (although already inhabited) and (eventually) colonizing them. We are completely hung up on maintaining 100% health before we even risk going to Mars or going back to the Moon. Sure, the government needs to worry about this, but if a company and its employees are willing to risk more then we might be able to achieve more. The next thing we know, the Mars or Moon environment might spark some sort of manufacturing or research break through and everybody will be scrambling to set up colonies after the first guy figures it out.
...
This could be interesting, but anything can be 20 years out as well. Flying cars? Pfff - 20 years. Fusion? Pfff - 20 years. So beware
Sounds kinda familiar.
When can we expect the space elevator on mars to be operational? Will we also be colonizing Pheobos and Deomos?
Isn't there a law that says a company with a number in its name is doomed to failure?
people and companies are considering not rebuilding in new orleans, because surviving there might prove too expensive. the water in new orleans might be fetid, but new orleans, even now, is pretty attractive when compared to mars.
i'm a bit puzzled how anyone is going to justify doing business on mars. the only way i could see it working is if some government is wasting huge amounts of money to go to mars already, and they are willing to waste more for services. (hello halliburton/kbr.)
One plan is to build a full-scale version of the planned Mars settlement and charge visitors to tour the "Mars Settlement Research and Outreach Center." 4Frontiers hopes to have a site selected for the center by the end of this year, said company co-founder and CEO Mark Homnick.
"We've narrowed the search to New Mexico, Central Florida or Colorado," he said.
Pardon my cynicism, but does anyone really see this going past Central Florida?
I think it would be more likely that someone finally finds Magrathea to commission a planet of solid gold than to mine Mars.
Slartibartfast will of course handle the fjords.
swanker than you
I'm sure part of the business plan is selling rover parts on eBay.
Actually, I'll bet that could just about fund the whole mission right there. That and the fee they get for telling the EU what really happened to Beagle.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Odd that this comes on the tail of hydrogen fuel pellets & laptop supercomputers ... Come on, we know you're out there- go ahead- post the perpetual motion machine plans.
/. teetering on the brink of being inconsequential? Anybody want to bet the #1 referrering page at snopes.com is /.?
Is it just me or is
Funny to hear about this now. My new company, X Dimension Corp, is planning to colonize Alpha Centauri and mine fairy dust as soon as 2012. We are hiring lesbians and midgets right now, so all is coming along well.
/wish them all the best - honestly - but I just don't see it happening.
This plan is flawless, except they failed to take into account that the electricity from their 1TB laptops will make the sun go supernova.
For great justice.
All of you naysayers will be eating your words once the price of crystite goes through the roof.
yeah... me neither...
This goomba couldn't keep a handfull of "researchers" alive in a greenhouse for a couple of months. How's he going to mars? He's not. Ever. Period.
Wannabuyabridge???
I knew getting that patent on the business model of going mars and mining it would pay off someday
What rights does this guy have in claiming the planet for himself?
Will he then be the President or King or whatever self-imposed title he wishes of Mars?
Hmmm witty sig or funny sig? Maybe elitest techy sig!
I can't wait til they change their name to PTMC and need a "material defender" to clean up certain "messes" in their martian labs.
-- "This world is a comedy to those who think, a tragedy to those who feel."
Ok I know all the sci-fi lovers out there are all super excited about the prospect of a space gold rush.
but let me ask this.
Do we really have to destroy another planet to satisfy the energy/consumption needs of HUMANS?
I say right now someone should draft a universe wide anti exploitation bill.
All planets and moons should be off limit to commercial interests, to prevent said exploitation, until these planets are well understood.
I think its despicable that this is even being proposed and I really think any though of commercial exploitation is premature before we even understand the ecology of the planet.
I mean look at the destruction around you.
Do you think it was caused by chipmunks?
Everyday I drive by useless Mc Mansions and new mall developments destroying forests and natural clearings and creating more detritus, consuming more energy per person to keep up than is warranted only to serve the vanity of some insecure, empty and shallow human shells.
why should other planets be made to pay for the retardation of the human species?
fools.
We never learn.
Content + Container; Content = Container; Content â Container... which is the question?
> Something about companies that have numerals in their names just makes them seem so reputable and trustworthy!
And! as! if! that! weren't! enough!, we! have! jerkoff! companies! that! use! exclamation! sign! in! their! name!
As that Yahoo! customer from China found out, companies that use ASCII symbols in their name are even less trustworthy than those that use numerals.
You mean there's a currency exchange that will convert nethack zorkmids into US dollars?
I've got about $100K gold pieces I'd like to exchange.
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
Well, alrighty then.
You should probably patent that process before some evil-doer tries to steal your ideas.
Coding with assembly is like playing with Legos. Coding an application in assembly is like building a car with Legos.
Also if you can find extraterrestrial (not from Earth) fissionable material (uranium or thorium) that means you can avoid the risks and expense of having to launch it. A lot of people get upset if there's a proposal to launch a 100kg RTG. Well, to power a mining colony, they will need a lot more than 100kg of fission fuel. What kind of public reaction would there be to the proposal of launching several tons of uranium? It would be much better if they could dig it up on Mars and use it on Mars.
Some of the terraforming projects require moving asteroids of ice to Mars. Again, the only way you can do that is with a nuclear-powered mass driver on the asteroid, and it would be nice to not have to launch that much uranium from Earth.
So when my company starts its Mars base, the first thing we're going to do is find the uranium, and then we'll sell electricity, H2 and O2 to all the other companies that want to (effectively) sell dirt and water. I suspect there's a lot better markup on electricity than there is on dirt and water.
I assume there is uranium on Mars, but I've never heard of anyone looking for it or discussing it. It seems to me that if there are no extraterrestrial sources of uranium, that's going to be a big problem for colonization of space, because it really will take thousands of tons of uranium to provide all the power that's going to be needed for serious mining and fuel production. And no, solar power is not going to work for this. Mining and fuel production requires too much power for solar to be a realistic option. For any activities beyond Mars, solar gets even less realistic. As long as solar is the power source, power is going to be a very tight limiting factor, whereas if you've got a few hundred tons of uranium, power will not be the limiting factor.
Also I wonder if uranium would make a good radiation shield? It seems like DU would be quite effective for that?
The good news is that if you set up a reactor on one of Mars' moons or on an asteroid or in Mars orbit, you can make it enormous and not need any real containment structures. If the uranium is available, it might be much cheaper to build extraterrestrial reactors than it is on Earth.
----------------
mobile search
How expensive is it going to be to launch all that material into space from the martian surface? Maybe a little cheaper than from Earth, but then you have complex and expensive stations and life support to maintain as well. This is a stupid idea. Mining asteroids or something would be a whole lot better. Not that I see any of this happening by 2025, of course. I think we'll be lucky just to have our first human driving around in a buggy by then. Forget about commercial enterprises.
-matthew
"THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
Viva competition! Viva free enterprise!
willing to sink their dollars into crackpot pipe dreams like this. If they can mine and refine enough materials to recoup the energy spent pusing things in and out of orbit they'll be lucky.
Actually it's pretty easy to export Martian material to just about anywhere, with the construction of a Martian beanstalk. I did a paper on exporting Martian volatiles (organics, water, etc) this way back in 1991.
As for "otherwise it is boring mineral slag", you're probably right about most of it -- so is most of Earth. But consider that Mars has had large meteor impacts, which can lead to rich deposits of nickel, silver, copper, etc (google sudbury basin). It has also has water and has had extensive volcanism, which implies hydrothermal ore concentration mechanisms (stuff like uranium, among many others).
-- Alastair
I see they're not settling for the best. Under Jobs:
Desired Skill Sets - For Future Positions
Nuclear - power generation, propulsion blah
"The idea is to make Mars a center for needs of the solar system economy"
What solar system economy? Hello buddy we only have one planet with potential buyers.
Im guessing what he means is to mine the goods from mars and sell it to people like NASA willing to build a space station orbiting mars.
It does sound pretty hoakey the way he presents the proposition though.
If you'll cast your minds back, about 65 million years ago, the Chicxulub crater, (that's the one that was left from the impact that wiped out all the dinosaurs,) was a mere 145 to 180 km in diameter (70 to 80 miles for the metrically challenged.)
Imagine that you want to be the BIG ASS BOSS of everybody and everything, no lip from anybody, period. And they can even make lots of bucks doing it.
You know what damage a 145 to 180 km kinetic weapon can cause. Extinction! Bad for business. Now think small. Real small.
What would a missile a few kilos of mass do if it was nudged from orbit, dropped down and hit the ground at terminal velocity. Were talking about a geosynchronously guided killer dead weight here.
And it requires very little energy to launch 'em, toss 'em and park 'em in LEO, from Mars, where there's lots of dirt waiting to be wrapped in plastic with a couple of little guidance rockets to give 'em a li'l shove.
The first one who gets off this dirt ball doesn't have to go far to get some REAL leverage. It doesn't even have to be thay complicated, or expensive, or long term or difficult.
If I can think this way, so can anybody else. (I bet Balls-mer would just love to have something like this right now. It would make it so much easier to dict..., uh, negotiate with the EU.)
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
For Mars to become worth colonizing, it has to have something that is worth more than it costs to ship it back to Earth. At the moment, I simply can't think of anything that would qualify due to the high costs of getting it out of the gravity well and to Earth, Only when a material runs out on Earth and easily farmed asteroids will Mars become a profitable source, and the only thing I can think of that we're near running short on would be oil, and Mars isn't exactly Saudi Arabia, if you get my drift.
We'd be better off skipping Mars and heading to the asteroids for metals, comets for water, and the gas giants for methane/hydrogen/whatever. Personally, I think Mars may only become useful to inhabit if it was used as the anchor for support space stations for deep space mining elsewhere. Then it may be worth building an elevator to the surface and transporting up more common materials you'd otherwise get from Earth or asteroids.
Nevertheless, there is a decent chance that once there are regular commercial interests in deep space, Mars may be colonized for other reasons than resources. It may make a fine home for some group that wants to get well away from the rest of the Earth's population and can use existing commercial technologies to get them there cheaply. I'm thinking of survivalist groups, certain religious ideologies or simply highly independent people who want to go somewhere where they can live without interference from others. Say what you like about these groups, but they often take the hits in opening up wastelands and other undesirable places for eventual mainstream settlement.
They will need people with the following skillset:
"Nuclear - power generation, propulsion blah"
Where are doomed ! hell on earth !
-- il fait bo
We already have the bulk of the research necessary. What is needed NOW, is simply to have the gumption to go.
This is no different than when Kennedy sent Man to the moon. Since then, we have not had leaders that are visionary or have real courage (papa bush did, but he was battling a monster deficit).
These guy have the right idea. To make a coloney, you have to have some reason to make it worthwhile. It will almost certainly be a mining type operation.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Am I the only one who thought of Doom 3 immediately? Haha....but seriously, what if there is life on mars, that we don't know about... Or maybe Nazis launched a shuttle there in 1944 and we dont know about it, and now they have an underground empire! That would make for a kickass video game.
The proposal, while less ludicrous than some things I've heard, implies insufficient attention given when reading Robert Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land.
It seems a likely enough scenario. (A previous expidition's sole survivor, befreinded by natives, showing up to cramp the plan seems rather less likely.) In addition, the US isn't in a position to make such a proclamation to the other governments of the world... and such would mean nothing while military might is still used to settle territorial disputes between sovereign powers. Any claimant who cannot back it up with weapons as needed renders their claim moot. In turn, if there's no-one powerful enough to take it away from you, any argument it doesn't belong to you becomes very moot.Call it poetic, or call it ironic, but call it by the proper name: Any claim to own Mars, which the Romans named for their God of War, would ultimately have to rest on a formidable foundation of the Right Of Conquest.
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
We have the bulk of the science needed to go there. What we have been trying to come up with, is how to stay there for a short time, and then how to come back. That is very difficult. If we go on a one-way mission, then we could devote research to staying there and how to mine better. Much of that research will involve automation. That can be applied back here on earth.
As to how to get there, the rockets are coming. I think that sending a small crew there, is fairly easy, if doing a 4 month one-way trip. Staying there will require a small nuke. No 2 ways about it. Most likely, they will send it there early on (before man mission) to provide power to robots. It will construct a small shelter in the ground, as well as a green house on the surface (all automated). Once these are going, then send man. We have most of the technology for these. Just have to do it.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Why the hell would somebody want to go all the way to Mars and plant landmines everywhere? I mean really! It's not as if it's going to protect it from alien invaders, and it will be nothing but problematic for the early settlers.
What about the flying cars?
Apparently not.
Fond memories... (no, not the 3DO version.)
1. Form new company 2. Get to Mars and dig up stuff 3. Ship it back to Moon 4. ??? 5. Profit!!!
Flying is easy, just throw yourself at the ground and miss. -Douglas Adams
"Carbon, nitrogen and hydrogen are all scarce on the moon, but readily available on Mars."
But they're also plentiful on Earth. D'oh!
How can these people be serious?
Insert witty sig here.
More like the first person to take control and hold onto the high orbitals of Mars is going to be the King. Hypersonic aimed rock beats gun any day of the week.
Really? How you going to man that? If it's unmanned, how are you going to stop the people on the surface from jamming signals to the weapons satellites?
Being able to throw things at people on the ground is a far cry from control. Just as you cannot win a war with only air support you cannot hold a planet from a space station.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I think they would be better off mining Jupiter. You know, a planet composed of vapor.
Seriously, this would be awesome. I sure hope to see a Mars colony in my lifetime, which will end around 2070 or presidential election of Jeb Bush, whichever comes first.
I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
They are going to sell prime Louisiana real estate to fund their venture. Most of it's in and around New Orleans.
Oh, yeah, and according them, Biosphere 2 was a great success just like FEMA's efforts for Hurricane Katrina relief. I still want to know what happened to Biosphere 1. mygodwhatabunchoffucktards
"You'll get nothing, and you'll like it!"
We'll mine other planets later.
The could just save themselves a lot of trouble and instead go to Antartica or some rocky desolate island on earth and start the solar system economy from there.
In different words, so far, there is little evidence that there are economically exploitable, useful resources on Mars.
just how exactly does this company supposedly get the deed to mars itself so that they can dole out these mineral rights as they see fit?
sum.zero
I'm not challenging your numbers - do enough polls and you'll get almost any result - but I wonder if you can tell me the poll you saw. The numbers I saw doing a google search are 55% (Nov. 2004), 47% (Nov. 1991), and 42% (Aug. 2005) of Americans believing in Creationism.
Ben Hocking
Need a professional organizer?
1. ??????
2. PROFIT????
I read this company's plan and it's completly feasable, except that they transposed a digit in their projected year of completion. They really plan to be on Mars in 2205, not 2025. ;)
No, I will not work for your startup
there are existing un treaties about exactly what you can do with/to/on a celestial body like mars and who can claim ownership. the us is a signatory to these treaties.
also, a private enterprise needs explicit authorization and supervision by an appropriate state party for any activities they intend.
sum.zero
Too bad any hope of increased capital will be lost paying for the Slashdot traffic.
We'll strip mine Mars later.
Never shake hands with a man you meet in a fertility clinic.
1. Form new company
2. Get to Mars and dig up stuff
3. Ship it back to Moon
4. ???
5. Profit!!!
Flying is easy, just throw yourself at the ground and miss. -Douglas Adams
As awesome as it sounds, it just can't be real. I'll believe it when/if it actually happens. I don't see it really happening for another 50 years or so.
How will they pull this off? They won't. The Zhti Ti Kofft would never tolerate it! Besides, I don't think they really intend to. It is just another plot to scam investors like buying land on the moon. Former California Governor Jerry Brown was nicknamed "moonbeam" for falling for that scam. They are looking for suckers, and there is one born every minute.
The Uncoveror: It's the real news.
But on Mars it's a lot easier than on Earth. First, safety is not as much of a concern. If you have a big radioactive spill on Earth, you've caused a lot of problems. On Mars, well, no one is drinking the groundwater anyway and the whole place is already uninhabited. So that greatly simplifies your factory.
Second, you don't need to run on 100% uranium fuel. Here on Earth, no one wants to generate plutonium for reactors because of proliferation fears (founded or not). On Mars, proliferation is not a concern. Anyone who has the technology to get to Mars should be able to build atomic weapons fairly easily, and atomic explosives will probably be needed for engineering work, so spending time worrying about proliferation on Mars is silly.
The good thing about being free to burn plutonium is that it's easy to make plutonium from the left-over depleted uranium. All you need is a big neutron flux, pump that through the depleted uranium, and you get plutonium fuel.
What this means is that on Earth, you need to mine 140 tons of uranium metal to get one ton of U235, which is the only kind that works as fuel. On Mars, you mine 140 tons of uranium metal, extract the 1 ton of U235, and use that to convert the remaining 139 tons of U238 to plutonium. We can't do that on Earth for political / military reasons, but we can do it on Mars.
So yeah, many of the same problems remain, but the whole process of going from uranium ore to energy would be a lot simpler on Mars.
Once you have a basic reactor going (enough to generate fuel) you can start lifting your raw uranium ore into Mars orbit. It's a lot easier to get off the surface of Mars than it is to get off of Earth. Then you refine it in orbit, where you can be as unsafe and messy as you want, you blast all the waste products into the sun, and you send back down your refined U235 or plutonium fuel rods.
Seriously... Does this company have any evidence at all that their grandiose designs are plausible in any way ? Mars is a long way from here...
>|<*:=
...this will be contested. Most of the landlocked nations of the Earth, especially the most dictatorial and despotic and mismanaged, salivated of the Law of the Sea Treaty. It pretty much gave the UN control over everything and would have amounted, given the way the UN does everything, to a massive wealth transfer from nations using sea resources to those not.
I can hardly believe the same UN which knew very damn well that Iraq had VX in hand at one point but was willing to kiss Hussein's rear end for sweet deals and play up that the US was ultimately like Nazi Germany to Iraq's Poland would do any less. An entire frigging planet for the most corrupt international body in history is too much to resist.
I also doubt any single government of Earth would sit still for what amounts to any private government being created on Mars which this would essentially entail.
If my grammar and spelling are off, I am [distracted/tired/careless] (take your pick)
What are they mining up there? I hear there's some great Turbinium deposits. Of course, they'll have to solve the problem of getting enough air into the housing structures. The first couple go-arounds will likely produce mutations, and we all know how much mutants like to rebel. . . Ah why bother. We all know the current Governor of California will send the entire infrastructure down when he sets off a chain reaction and gives the planet an atmosphere. Seriously, though, what is so valuable that anyone would legitimately invest in this? ~EEE~
you must first convert to spacequest Buckazoids
Don't Tread on Me
4Frontiers is really the Union Aerospace Corporation (UAC).
Once I was a four stone apology. Now I am two separate gorillas.
Dont forget... when mining ore on Mars for use in building additional facilities, always protect your ore harvester from attack since it is essentially defenseless.
If your ore harvester is destroyed, and you don't have the funds to build a new one, you must then sell existing buildings at only half the price you paid for them.
Or, if you have Engineers, they can enter and take over enemy buildings, but Engineers are even more defenseless than ore harvesters. And remember you should *never* have your Engineers run directly across ore fields since the ore is poisonous.
(Forgot to check formatting on my last post. Arrgh).
What are they mining up there?
I hear there's some great Turbinium deposits. Of course, they'll have to solve the problem of getting enough air into the housing structures. The first couple go-arounds will likely produce mutations, and we all know how much mutants like to rebel. . .
Ah why bother? We all know the current Governor of California will send the entire infrastructure down when he sets off a chain reaction and gives the planet an atmosphere.
Seriously, though, what is so valuable that anyone would legitimately invest in this?
~EEE~
Anybody ever get the feeling that Wired is a tabloid?
Actually, in the games where you harvest "ore"(i. e. the Red Alert series), it's not poisonous. It's only poisonous when it's called Tiberium.
Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
Can you say "Union Aerospace Corporation"?
This sig is false.
Ah, C&C, how I love you so
The idea is so preposterous that it is unimaginable (just like the laptop story earlier today). All the posts explaining *precisely* why the idea is idiotic probably took something like a few thousand man hours to write/read.
What a waste of space. Nobody is going to make money going to Mars in the next 20 years. Bank on it. Nobody is going to Mars in the next 20 years. Bank on it.
The only money to be made on this boondoggle is by fleecing money from dreamers.
Space exploration with meat in the exploration vehicles is a total waste of time and money. Send a robot. The current Mars successes are wonderful reasons why we shouldn't send meat to Mars.
By 2025, we'll all be so jacked into our VR worlds banging Jenna Haze that we won't give a shit if we go to Mars anyway.
As a reference, I cite Kurzweil's Age of Spiritual Machines, which I refer to by shorthand as "the porn fantasy book." We're all going to be circuits and software someday anyway, so the idea of saving humanity by exploring space is ridiculous anyway. We'll be able to send ourselves anywhere in the universe without the meat, given enough time, starting in about a hundred years, if we haven't solved Fermi's Paradox ourselves the hard way.
Lots of petrified grits
You're telling me we will soon have to live next to humans?
That's the final straw. First Venutians, now earthlings. I'm selling before "green flight" to the outer planets ruins my property value. -Xabloz The Transmuter
So you get to Mars, somehow, and start digging up "valuable" minerals for the space stations. Only one glitch-- how do you deliver the goods? You think UPS Air is expensive, try UPS Vacuum. At least $10K a pound, and what if they're not home?.
The bigger concern is NOT contaminating Mars, it is contaminating Earth.
I can live with accidentally wiping out all less-developed life on a neighbouring planet accidentally.
I cannot live (literally) with something accidentally wiping out all life on my home planet!
"To pass through the jungle; silence, courtesy, ferocity, as the occasion demands." -- Kamau, "Proper Passage"
start the reactor, free Mars. Only then can the miners prosper here.
the Virginia company? I bet the only way they will turn a profit is by Martian slave labor.
cabg x3 is a life changing event...
They will arrive to colonize the planet and find that Wal-Mart is already there.
So does anyone know if Hersheys will be making mars bars on mars?
FragHARD or don't frag at all
going to build a bridge between the two peaks?
As long as they don't skimp on the chainsaws.
I am the inventor of the hilarious refrigerator alarm.
Honestly, if you want to spend a billion dollars bring a half ton of dirt back from mars. You can take it out of my back yard for only a million dollars!
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
They're using the Phantom for training missions. They have a fully functional Mars Environment Simulator running on that thing. They plan to release this software for free with the Phantom (which already is set to ship with the next installment of the Duke Nukem series) to attract interest and money for their project while also preparing potential employees ("soldiers") to the harsh environment...
Considering the fact that mars has storms that are 1000x worse than the earth's most horrible hurricane there will have to be some major advancement before this will come to occur.
Karma: a simple way of silencing those with unpopular views regardless how correct or just that view might be.
Has nobody heard of the Artemis Project? It's not doing so well these days, but: http://www.asi.org/
Ethan
Engineering
- Nuclear - power generation, propulsion blah
Lol!--Rob
Towards the Singularity.
Anyone remember that Star Trek episode, where in the closing scene Data (with help from Q) breaks out laughing, pauses, then laughs again? After reading about this scam, that's exactly how I sounded. Anyone have a sound clip of that scene?
Since I work at the UN, I did a search at our library for any record of WIPO giving any kind of award to Shimon Gendlin. No records.
Maybe I'll contact WIPO directly since they won't be too happy about a scam artist infriging on their IP.
... the first person on Mars owns both Mars and Earth ;-)
If they want some attention they should threaten to go to Mars and start a new colony / country. If they threaten to start a communist/socialist/anarchist utopia every capitalist nation on the planet would work to preventing them the opportunity.
The only thing that scares capitalists more than the color Red is the concept of a society without money.
Besides, controversy sells.
4Frontiers ...... interesting but wouldn't Union Aerospace Corporation (UAC) have been catchier?
Am I the only one who has noticed that their 'business plan' does not involved going to Mars at all, but rather pretending they have authority to sell mining leases for Mars and various asteroids.
They intend to sell these non-existent leases to any who wants to pretend along with them.
I'm sure it will come as a nice glossy certificate that you can frame!
I expect to see their advertorial right after the one about the amazing memory tapes.
. . . I have an opportunity for you to invest in some land in south-central Florida. . .
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
From TFA:
One plan is to build a full-scale version of the planned Mars settlement and charge visitors to tour the "Mars Settlement Research and Outreach Center." 4Frontiers hopes to have a site selected for the center by the end of this year, said company co-founder and CEO Mark Homnick.
This is one big BS hype storm for their cheesy theme park.
Plan of Action: 1)go to mars 2)??? 3)Profit!
I read this as a company is settling to mine Mars, as if they originally had planned to mine Saturn, but they had to shoot a little lower due to budget constraints or something.
This too, will end.
Wouldn't it take alot less to mine asteroids if the intention is to send the materials back to earth? They have to lift the resources out of the planet's gravity well, with asteroids this isn't a problem. Not that this organization is capable of it but I think it would be best to leave Martian resources on Mars for future colonies. Someone should send their CEO copies of Red Mars, Green Mars and Blue Mars along with A Case for Mars and Mining the Sky.
If they want to mind a planet, they should go for Mercury. There should be loads of metals there.
*It's not what you can do for the Dark Side but what the Dark Side can do for you!*
Come on. Anyone whos played Doom3 knows exactly what I am saying here.
OMFG! Don't these guys watch any movies?
It's the Mars Colony that's always responsible for some kind of rebellion, upgrising, revolution or war! It always ends in riots, bloodshed and decades of racism and bigotry; not to mention annoying circumstances of people having to beg for a 'backdoor' transmission to try and locate lost loves and other causes for flashback sequences.
Let's not even mention the poor basketball- playing, black-headed martians with their ACME lasers and funky green bird-like minions. Where's Duck Dodgers when you need him?
I am 100% AGAINST government subsidization of manned space exploration. It's a colossal waste of money.
But if private companies want to exploit a dead ball of rock, I say they should go for it.
This would follow the method in which the New World was colonized. The big difference is that there was a breathable atmosphere and easily harvested resources in the new world.
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
... so we don't have to fight them here. ;-)
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
Yeeeeeeeaaaahhhhhhh!
[/rapper]
kurzweil_freak
5th Kyu Genbukan Ninpo/KJJR student
Be the darkness that allows the light to shine.
They will ship robots to Mars. And than they will BUILD the robots on mars. And then the robots will buy things from each other making them self-sufficient.
And then Battlestar Galactica will show up
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
Though, I might have a seaport in Wyoming to sell soon.
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
Huh??
Sounds good. Go a long way into a relatively deep gravity well to haul up material to schlep back a huge distance to drop into another gravity well that's already full of building material.
I don't think even NASA could dream up something that inefficient.
Credo sim. - I think I am.
Don't worry, someone will fuckup and send a shipment of Beavertooth chainsaws to Mars.
Life is not for the lazy.
at least they dont need to find oxygen, all they have to do is find that reactor the aliens built and start is up like arnie did
Interesting, Oh no wait the other thing, Tedious
So what do they have? As far as I can tell, some pictures of what they want the habitat to look like, and a hope that the SpaceX people will get them there. I think I could have managed to write that site in a week.
This is not quite the same as colombus setting out for America. Then, people had significant experience of long sea voyages, and were heading for a destination that was already habitable, with a fair few people involved. And the entire mission would not fail if a sail got torn.
No, going to mars with current technology (Chemical rockets with tiny payloads) is like going from Europe to America in a rowing boat and finding it to be a parched desert when you get there. You could do it - with a heroic effort - but you wouldn't be able to set up a useful colony.
The bottom line is that a chemical rocket on Earth can only just get out of the gravity well. Even the Saturn 5, lifting a payload of over 100 tonnes to low earth orbit could only get a small lander to the moon and back. It is NOT a matter of bueracuracy, it is a consequence of the physics of the process. Designs that look simple on paper suddenly get complex and expensive because of the desparate need to keep mass down. It's like trying to build the internet on copper alone; no matter how cleverly you use it, no matter how sleek and innovative your company, you'll keep hitting fundamental limits.
If we are serious about human space exploration and colonisation (and I very much think we should be), then the problem of getting large masses out of the Earth's gravity well in a cheap and reliable manner MUST be solved. If you can build a 50,000 tonne space ship in high earth orbit and then propel THAT to mars orbit, building your colony suddenly gets a lot easier; the problems of food, water, radiation, energy, society, etc are all, fundamentally, problems of mass.
Dude. I take my notional hat off to you. Brilliant.
My Karma: ran over your Dogma
StrawberryFrog
Read "The Case for Mars" by Robert Zubrin. He explains how we can put people on Mars right now, entirely with technology we have already.
It really isn't as far-fetched an idea as people make it seem.
And wouldn't it just be awesome to go to another planet?
Ben Hocking
Need a professional organizer?
I was hoping that if I put enough obscure or semi-obscure references in there, there'd be a little something for everyone ;) Lets see: Firefly, Red Dwarf, Nethack, Star Control II, Red Planet, Santa Claus Conquers the Martians, Looney Tunes, Cowboy Bebop, half a dozen old "Ship-like spaceship" animes, and of course, the obligatory "South Park" profit reference.
Son, a woman is a lot like a refrigerator. They're six feet tall, 300 pounds... they make ice... umm...
DEAR SIR,
WITH DUE RESPECT AND HUMILITY, I WRITE THIS LETTER THAT I MAY REQUEST YOUR ASSISTANCE IN A DELICATE MATTER OF GREAT IMPORTANCE. I RECEIVED YOUR ADDRESS FROM A CONTACT AT THE FEDERAL EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY (FEMA) WHO WAS IN NEW ORLEANS. MY FATHER WAS CAUGHT IN THE TRAGIC AFTERMATH OF THE TERRIBLE STORM HURRICANE KATRINA, AND THOUGH HE FOUGHT VALIANTLY, DROWNED IN HIS HOME. IT WAS TWO DAYS BEFORE THAT HE INFORMED ME OF THE EXISTENCE OF A LOCKED BOX ON UNHARMED LAND IN THE FRENCH QUARTER CONTAINING VALUABLES AND CASH SUM OF $20,350,000 DOLLARS (US).
I HAVE ESCAPED THE STORM IN NEW ORLEANS AND AM CURRENTLY RESIDING IN HOUSTON IN THE ASTRODOME STADIUM. IN ORDER TO AVOID RAISING AN EYEBROW OVER THE HUGH SUM OF MONEY CONTAINED IN THIS LOCKED BOX, I DESPOSITED IT WITH A SECURITY ORGANIZATION FOR SAFEKEEPING PURPOSES. BE INFORMED THAT THE SECURITY ORGANIZATION IS UNAWARE OF THE TRUE CONTENTS OF THIS BOX AND WE DO NOT WANT THEM TO KNOW OF ITS VALUE.
YOU WILL BE REQUIRED TO OPEN A NON RESIDENCE BANK ACCOUNT IN ANY BANK OF YOUR CHOICE IN TEXAS AND GET THE MONEY DEPOSITED IN THE ACCOUNT, THERE AFTER YOU ORDER THE BANK MANAGER TO TRANSFER THE MONEY TO YOUR ACCOUNT. YOU SHALL SOURCE FOR GOOD INVESTMENT FOR US SO THAT WE MAY INVEST THE MONEY WISELY.
CONCERING THE MONEY, WE ARE PREPARED TO GIVE YOU A REASONABLE SUM OF 40% OF THE TOTAL MONEY AND 5% MAPPED OUT FOR ANY INCUURED EXPENSES. IF YOU ARE WILLING TO ASSIST US, YOU MAY RESPOND IMMEDIATELY TO PREPARE ARRANGEMENTS. NO OTHER PERSON KNOWS OF THIS MONEY SO DEISCRETION IS A MUST.
GOD BE WITH YOU,
MR. HUGH G RECTION, 419TH ORDER OF THE ROYAL COCKBLOCKERS
See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
Mars is, what a hundred million miles from here? Your definition of "easily accessible" is different from mine.
Sean
MARS is a dead rock, it has 1% of the atmosphere and a lot less gravity. hence less atmosphere, your head would explode if you took off your space helmet (unlike Val Kilmers in Red Planet). It would take $500B to get there and the crew would die or go insanse on the way. Not even NASA a profligate waster of money wants to do this, they just want the funding to try. Mankind needs way more technology than it currently has for this debacle. NASA went to the moon so we could develop the technology to put nuclear weapons in downtown Moscow (same technology, no selling the truth in 1962). Nixon knew it and killed Moon shots when he took office. The goal was acheived with Navy C-4 and D-5 missile systems. The Space Shuttle is an embarassment, a $100B sinkhole for people that have read to many Buck Rogers novels, and that gets less payload to a lower orbit than the Saturn V at 100X the cost. Investors, keep your dollars away from these fools.
Isn't that "Profit!" reference due to The Simpsons (and the underwear gnomes IIRC)?
"Profit!" and "Underpants Gnomes" are a South Park reference.
Son, a woman is a lot like a refrigerator. They're six feet tall, 300 pounds... they make ice... umm...
As long as they don't use any Mars artifacts for teleportaion experiments and open a gateway to hell this sounds like a great plan...
It's about damned time! I've been griping about this since I was 17! Now, where can I sign up for some dusty, cold, life-endangering manual labour on another planet? :-)
Seriously, getting off this rock is important to the survival of our species! If it means doing it for a mining corporation, so be it. Hell, Europeans came to The Americas looking for Gold....
Oh my gawd, they killed kenny's mod points!!!!