Movie Studios Unveil New Anti-Piracy Lab

PaulusMagnus writes "According to the BBC Walt Disney, Sony, Paramount, Warner Bros, Universal and 20th Century Fox have formed a new organisation called the Motion Picture Laboratories. They've also given them a nice tidy sum of US$30m to play with to develop new technologies to combat piracy." From the article: "There are thousands of new concepts floating around the hi-tech community about how to develop tools to fight piracy ... Researching and developing these technologies now will help save the major studios and other motion picture producers and distributors money in the future."

Comments

The first discovery....

[Dark Paladin]

Make another "Mary Kate and Ashley Olson" movie, and *nobody* tries to pirate it.

Success!

Re:The first discovery....

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know... I think "One Night in Mary Kate and Ashley" would probably be the #1 pirated movie ever.

Re:The first discovery....

[Dark Paladin]

You are the wind beneath my wings.

Re:The first discovery....

[tktk]

Another Tom Green movie would work though.

But One Night in Tom Green would be going way too far.

Re:The first discovery....

[drunkennewfiemidget]

Thanks. That's a visual I didn't need. *shudder*

Re:The first discovery....

[robertjw]

I'd pay to see that...

Re:The first discovery....

[hypervinetest45]

I slept with Mary Kate and Ashley before they were famous.

Re:The first discovery....

[CardiganKiller]

That is the most wrong thing I think I've heard all week.

Re:The first discovery....

[NetSurferHI]

So if the MPAA reverse engineers the encryption on P2P clients, can they be prosecuted under the DMCA?

Re:The first discovery....

[tktk]

Visual?

You think that's bad? I though of it!

I'd stab my own brain if it wouldn't kill me.

Re:The first discovery....

[Virak]

You must not spend a long time on the internet, huh?

Re:The first discovery....

[Virak]

Err, a lot of time. While not sleeping mean more internet time, it doesn't makes for very good communication.

Re:The first discovery....

[tenton]

I Fucked the Girl in Hanson

Which one?

Re:The first discovery....

[istewart]

Even if bestiality wasn't illegal, who would want to watch lemur porn anyway?

Re:The first discovery....

[kalirion]

Did this include an accident with a time machine and a contraceptive?

Re:The first discovery....

[frank_adrian314159]

So does this end with TG being the goatse guy?

Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Price your movie tickets within the reach of NORMAL FAMILIES!

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Einherjer]

so, let's make a quick comparison here.

what are ticket prices you pay for a blockbuster movie, like say "Mr. & Ms. Smith" or "Brother's Grimm" (whatever), during its first month

Austria: 9.80 Euro (that's 11.80 USD)

How much do YOU pay?

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[great om]

here in Nyc it's 9.50-11.00 usually based on where you are in the city. If you are lucky, some theatres have discount days where if you go at an unpopular time (like late sunday night or during the workday) it'll be like 6-7 bucks

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[kfg]

$0

KFG

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[wheelbarrow]

Marxist Hacker, there is an alternative that is available to you. You should produce a movie that people want to see and then price the movie tickets within the reach of normal families. You can make the free and voluntary choice to do that. What's stopping you?

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

$8 discount, $15 regular showing. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about a comparison between different cultures. I'm talking about basic pricing philosophy. Back when I was growing up, we had a third-run theater that continually waited until the end of the blockbuster weekends before they'd get copies of movies. They'd charge $2.50/ticket- and kept doing that well into the 1990s. $10 for a family of 4 to see some third-run film; and you can bet we didn't have people with camcorders sneaking in. (Last I heard, they went up to $3.50 but started throwing in the popcorn for free). Not to mention the old drive-ins that would charge by the carload instead of individually.

The point is that the MPAA wants to make all of their investment and profits up front- where if they'd go for volume pricing instead, and roll prices back a few years, they'd have NO problem with piracy at all.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[TrippTDF]

Adding to that: Popcorn and drink will set you back another $7 - $10 in NYC.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[h4rm0ny]

UK South, £5-6. (US$9-11)

Happy enough with that price, but never buy food / drinks there, mostly due to disgusting quality of the food and drinks. Also would be more inclined to go if the Odeon gave up trying to make us sit in allocated seats.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Mr. Underbridge]

Um, how did the tax cuts reduce your standard of living? They may be contributing to the deficit/debt, but I'm having a hard time seeing how the tax cuts have you in the poor house.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Um, how did the tax cuts reduce your standard of living? They may be contributing to the deficit/debt, but I'm having a hard time seeing how the tax cuts have you in the poor house.

Simply put- the majority of the tax cuts were to people who live on dividends. Because people are encouraged to live on dividends, this puts downward pressure on payroll (after all, businesses only have so much profit to go around- and if the stockholders are forcing the majority out in dividends, it has to come from somewhere, and the easiest place to cut is payroll). There are two ways this happens: In the software engineering industry, it happened through layoffs and outsourcing. In other industries, it's layoffs and hiring illegal aliens instead (who, thanks to another Supreme Court Decision in the last few years, are exempt from Davis-Bacon Act and Federal Minimum Wage laws). But inflation didn't stop- after all, those living on dividends have plenty of money to buy. So the rest of us have to slowly subsidise more and more of our lifestyle with debt. I've hit the wall on that- but many others will soon.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[shmlco]

Back when I was growing up, a cup of coffee or a loaf of bread cost a quarter, a shake 50 centers, you could get an entire meal for a buck, and $30,000 was the price of a house, not a car.

I say we take on the nasty, profiteering coffee, bread, ice cream, restaraunt, housing, and auto companies...

Then again, since none of those other things cost the same now as they did then, and since what was once a million dollar movie now routinely costs $50-100 million, why is it again that you're expecting to pay decades-old admission prices?

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Neil Blender]

I'm living paycheck to paycheck thanks to the Bush "soak the middle class" so-called tax cuts.

How, exactly, did the tax cuts push you to paycheck to paycheck? Because your statement implies that prior to the tax cuts, you weren't. Just interested is all. I might guess that you were making a shitload more money in the dotcom boom, but so were a lot of people who aren't now but that's not really an excuse and it certainly isn't Bush's fault. He came in on the bust and the start of a recession.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Txiasaeia]

Primer cost $10,000 USD, and it was the best film I've seen all year. The point is that you don't need a million-dollar budget to produce a quality film, and with a lower budget comes lower ticket and DVD prices. Even so, I paid over $30 CAD for the DVD of Primer when I could find it (for comparison, most DVDs cost $20-25 CAD when they're released, and usually drop by $5 after six months). The moral of the story is that people are willing to pay for quality; I know I'll be buying The Constant Gardener for full-price when it's released to DVD, but won't pick up The Brothers Grimm even at $10.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Ironsides]

Back when I was growing up, we had a third-run theater that continually waited until the end of the blockbuster weekends before they'd get copies of movies.

They still exist, though they may count as second run now. We have one near us called "University Mall Theatres". They are right across the street from a ... university. Fairly cheep tickets and small theatres. They are currently showing, Rocky Horror Picture Show, Madagascar, War of the Worlds, Mr. and Mrs. Smith and Star Wars: Episode III. If that don't count as a late runner, I don't know what does.

Try looking around the universities, that is where (I guess) they usually exist today. On the other hand, if you go and see the "Matinee" runnings, the tickets are usually a few bucks cheaper as well. Not as cheap as the 2nd/3rd runs, but still cheaper.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Maxo-Texas]

If actors, directors, editors, etc. made $120k to $240k and similar very nice but -reasonable- salaries were paid throughout the organization, Movies would not be this expensive and we would not have as many commercials on television.

---

I believe the current income levels reflect a monopoly that existed because there were limited outlets and limited entertainment. As we reach a point where there is more quality entertainment than we can watch- then consumers will start to choose the quality entertainment which is priced lowest.

---

For example- Wedding Crashers at $10 dollars for 2 hours, or Lost/Desperate Housewives at $33 for 22 hours. Or a 1 year old great film you havn't seen yet for $7.50 vs a new film at $19.99.

---

There is no valid reason the Harry Potter author can make over a BILLION dollars for a series of books- a few million (more than enough to live a lifetime) would have been more reasonable. The markets have increased in size and costs have decreased but -- temporarily-- the old prices are still being charged.

---

As the cost of filming, editing, and special effects drops to near zero we will see more and more "Star Wreck's" and "Star Trek- The New Voyages" of higher and higher quality. Recently Joss Whedon speculated that he could see making something like Firefox and distributing straight over the internet without using theaters or networks at all.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Chill, man, your ideology is showing.

I can't help the fact that before October 2001, I had made all the right choices: I was slowly getting raises, I had my degree in software engineering, I was studying .NET and Java Enterprise, and the worst decision I had to make was whether to cook at home or go to a restaurant. I also had a savings account. Then 26 months of unemployment followed by a 75% reduction in pay changed all that- and yes, I most certainly do blame the idiots-in-power.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

How, exactly, did the tax cuts push you to paycheck to paycheck? Because your statement implies that prior to the tax cuts, you weren't. Just interested is all. I might guess that you were making a shitload more money in the dotcom boom, but so were a lot of people who aren't now but that's not really an excuse and it certainly isn't Bush's fault. He came in on the bust and the start of a recession.

Which he could have done something about. He could have gotten us out of the WTO, and stopped the rush to India. Or at least insured that Americans would have other jobs by closing the borders to imports. OR given the tax cuts for R&D and Payroll instead of Dividends, thus encouraging businesses to actually hire and innovate instead of busting. There were things that could have been done to avoid the bust and the recession- but he refused to do them, instead did something that made the recession WORSE.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[StarvingSE]

Just wait until it goes to the second run theater for a buck....

Less whiney teenie boppers there too

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Primer cost $10,000 USD, and it was the best film I've seen all year. The point is that you don't need a million-dollar budget to produce a quality film, and with a lower budget comes lower ticket and DVD prices. Even so, I paid over $30 CAD for the DVD of Primer when I could find it (for comparison, most DVDs cost $20-25 CAD when they're released, and usually drop by $5 after six months). The moral of the story is that people are willing to pay for quality; I know I'll be buying The Constant Gardener for full-price when it's released to DVD, but won't pick up The Brothers Grimm even at $10.

True enough- actual production costs are indeed going through the floor thanks to new technology; that's a factor of about 30% off what I've seen for successfull films before. But my point is the same I've made for the oil industry as well- I don't see any reason why we can't return to cost+ pricing instead of gouge-the-customer-for-whatever-they'll-pay pricing, except for of course that the rich are afraid of deflationary prices.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[mcrbids]

Price your movie tickets within the reach of NORMAL FAMILIES!

Which is just so much hogwash. When you adjust for inflation, movie tickets are actually kind of cheap especially when compared to 1971-ish prices, where they were 50& MORE expensive than today!

A notable quote from the linked article:

Defenders of movie ticket price increases point out that while prices have increased in recent years -- to an average of $5.66 in 2001, according to the Motion Picture Association of America and the National Association of Theater Owners -- they long lagged behind inflation.
 
Although the average movie ticket price rose from 47 cents in 1951 to $1.65 in 1971, to $4.21 in 1991, the picture changes when the prices are stated in constant dollars. Using 2001 dollars, the price rose from $3.20 in 1951 to $7.22 in 1971, but then fell to $5.47 in 1991, and even dropped below $5 in 1994 and 1996.

I'd suggest that the biggest problem faced by the Entertainment industry is the rise of more options such as video games, the Internet, online music, etc as well as the increased competition from the long tail effect that these increased options provide.

There will probably always be the "blockbuster hit" but there simply won't be nearly as many.

We recently bought Dish Network satellite television, with the (Linux based!) DVR522 recorder. I can tell it to record whatever I like to watch whenever I want - and let me assure you, it's NOT what the networks show on "primetime". This is an extension of the "long tail" - even though the shows I might watch aren't as popular, they are popular enough to justify airing at non prime-time hours, and the DVR effectively lets me make that my own "prime time".

Since the economics of the local theatre only allows for blockbusters, they have to compete more heavily against material more directly suited for my own tastes.

It's a battle that will only get harder in time.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Mr. Underbridge]

1) The middle class got a tax cut, as did the lower classes. I'm in it, I do my own taxes, they were less after the cuts. We may not have gotten the cut we "deserved" but it was greater than 0. 2) Inflation has been quite low for some time now, outside of housing in certain markets. 3) I'm not really buying that chain of events. Downsizing and outsourcing are happening for a number of reasons, but tracing them back to tax cuts (for individuals) through a convoluted link structure isn't all that believable. 4) Are you trying to support a family on your salary in a high cost of living market? Because that can be tough in any event.

In any event, if your problem is that you're having trouble finding a job in IT, good luck (and I don't mean that sarcastically). If your problem is that you feel you're underpaid...thank a growing mass of IT workers here and worldwide driving down salaries through supply and demand. These days a diverse skillset is absolutely necessary to compete in the market.

Seriously, what are you trying ot do?

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Don't have very many universities near by, and what is near by is being bought up by Regal and Century and being turned into first-run megaplexes. But yes- I agree, they do still exist, and the very fact they exist proves that theaters don't really have to charge so much that they encourage piracy- more people would see the film and thus they'd make it up on volume.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Criterion]

Good point there... if they put the price of that down, it would make a BIG difference... at least to me. It's a real turnoff to think about spending $20+ on refreshments when you know it all cost them less than $1. Huge scam going there.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[AxemRed]

You mention a family, and that is a good point. For me, movie prices suck at $8.75 a ticket. However, if I was paying for a girlfriend/wife and/or kids, it would be horrible, especially if popcorn was involved.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

The point being that if it's in the second run theater for a buck, it probably would have made back the initial investment and then some if it had been a buck all along. So why worry about piracy, and spend $30 million on a fancy-schmancy anti-piracy lab, when you can just cut the cost of the tickets?

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Brushfireb]

What a load of trash. Marxist Hacker indeed!

Do you have any idea what the implications would be had bush, or any other president, taken your advice?

What you are advocating is isolation, or at best highly restricted free trade. All it does is piss off other countries when you "insured that Americans would have other jobs by closing the borders to imports". Can you think of what they would have done? Closed us off.

Guess what, America lives or dies by its exports. Its exports of services, of entertainment, of culture, of business. It does NOT live or die by its programmers or software development industry.

The choice was made, and it was correct, and its unpleasant that you were on the losing end, but all in all, the country is better for not being isolationist like you seem to prefer.

All you are is mimicing the pissed off "They took our jobs" line that every other self righteous, and subsequently unemployed person uses. Next time, stop bitching, and start working to change your career or start your own business. You had savings, as you said -- you just werent willing to risk them to do your own thing.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[cpt kangarooski]

Ooh, Firefox.

"Think in Russian!"

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Leiterfluid]

why is it again that you're expecting to pay decades-old admission prices?

Because they're recycling the same decades-old plots and story lines.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[scapermoya]

you cant seriously think that the middle-class got a fair tax cut in comparison to the upper class. The 'huge' tax cut georgie so generously put into action was mostly a cut of dividend taxes. I don't know about where you live, but in my neighborhood working class and middle class families don't have very impressive and diversified stock portfolios.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Ifni]

Three words: Doomed to fail.

All this will accomplish is to either cut further into their profit margins or raise the price for their legitimate customers (or both), thus alienating them further with worthless anti-piracy efforts that only serve to reduce fair use and prevent their target market from using the product as they wish.

It's a downward spiral, and you know that the customers are the biggest losers, followed by the studio execs that are being advised into this by even less scrupulous people that are successfully bilking them for millions. It's like those con men that scam the elderly out of their retirement savings, only these elderly should know better as they invented much of the game.

It'd be funny if the bill wasn't ultimately being footed by the honest consumers.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Which is just so much hogwash. When you adjust for inflation, movie tickets are actually kind of cheap [go.com] especially when compared to 1971-ish prices, where they were 50& MORE expensive than today!

True enough- but it costs LESS to produce good films today than it did in 1971, thanks to a huge increase in technology and automation.

Defenders of movie ticket price increases point out that while prices have increased in recent years -- to an average of $5.66 in 2001, according to the Motion Picture Association of America and the National Association of Theater Owners -- they long lagged behind inflation.

$5.66- where the hell are they going to see first run at that price?

Since the economics of the local theatre only allows for blockbusters, they have to compete more heavily against material more directly suited for my own tastes.

True enough- but my point was, make it cheap and nobody will bother to pirate anything.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[ranton]

You seam to me that you are just like all those other software engineers that thought they were worth so much, but soon found out that they werent. I have dozens of friends in various areas of the computer industry, some that have had career problems and some that have not. And the one thing that is true about 100% of the people I know who have had career problems is that they simply were not worth what their ego told them they were.

If you are still working in the computer industry then lets hope you are at least making 25k a year right now. That means that if you took a 75% pay cut then you were making a 6-digit salary. I am sorry but if you were honestly worth that much money then you wouldnt have trouble finding a job in any economy. You may have had to take a cut to 50k or so in a bad economy, but would never have spent 26 months unemployed.

People in the computer industry were being overpayed for so long that they got an inflated self image about what they were worth. If you are good at what you do and are worth what you are being payed then you WILL keep your job in ANY economy. Of course there are exceptions, but they are very few and far between.

It is said that 20% of the workforce does 80% of the work. Only the other 80% of the workers ever have to worry about losing their jobs because of a sagging economy. And those 80% only have other people to thank that they had those jobs in the first place. They shouldnt turn around a bitch that they arent getting a free ride anymore.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Neil Blender]

Primer cost $10,000 USD

that's a factor of about 30% off what I've seen for successfull films before.

Slap another 30% off it because it only cost $7,000. And you should definitely see it. Watch it about 3 or 4 times at least. Then hit the internet and look up some of the explanations of the movie, there is so much going on that you probably won't realize even after several viewings. After reading some of the explanations, it really weired me out. Very cool geek time travel movie.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

To me- when I was single $10, or $20 with a girlfriend, was NOTHING for a date. Add a kid into the mix and we simply don't go anymore- because you KNOW the kid will want popcorn at least and probably also all the movie sized candy they can see, and that overpriced pop. It's possible in a second-or-third run theater- or renting a DVD- but I've got to see a $3/person price point to actually do it.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[scapermoya]

Trickle-down economics was shown to be a faliure 20 years ago, yet Bush is doing the same thing. His vow to eliminate 'double-taxation' and the estate tax show where his priorities lie. We have known that as the rich get richer, they find ways to get even richer, which doesn't include raising wages. Instead, we have CEOs who have benefitted very nicely from the recent dividend tax cuts sending jobs overseas. There is no magic amount of money that satiates people, they will always want more.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[shmlco]

Well, put that way, since you've already seen them, you don't need to see them again, now do you?

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Actually, there's the good point in other threads that the same movie that cost $1 million back then could be made for $10,000 today- by using technology (which makes me wonder how much Tim Burton's latest claymation cost- done with a relatively cheap digital camera). So you'd actually expect to see DEFLATION on this.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[wrecked]

That little bit of nostalgia hit home. What is disturbing is that when my parents bought their first home, it was around $40k. They were earning around $50k and $30k respectively. My dad had no university education.

Now, 30 years later, my wife and I earn just above what my parents earned. But now, a house in my market costs over $400k.

In other words, while incomes maybe have increased only two- or possibly three-fold in the past 30 years, real estate has gone up by an entire order of magnitude.

I suspect that this is partly the reason why many people, not just the GP, pine for decades-old admission prices.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[shmlco]

That logic doesn't fly either. The second-run houses are, in effect, subsidized by the first-run houses. Without the first tier to pay for the bulk of the costs of the movie, the second tiers would no dobut need to charge more.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Do you have any idea what the implications would be had bush, or any other president, taken your advice?

Yes, in fact I have a pretty good idea.

What you are advocating is isolation, or at best highly restricted free trade. All it does is piss off other countries when you "insured that Americans would have other jobs by closing the borders to imports". Can you think of what they would have done? Closed us off.

Thus preventing 9-11. Thus preventing the nuke-and-meth invasion. The rest of the world has nothing we need. They've got stuff we want, but we could make it all here if we wanted to.

Guess what, America lives or dies by its exports. Its exports of services, of entertainment, of culture, of business. It does NOT live or die by its programmers or software development industry.

Maybe it should. Maybe we should start killing the free traitors.

The choice was made, and it was correct, and its unpleasant that you were on the losing end, but all in all, the country is better for not being isolationist like you seem to prefer.

Better off how? All I see is MORE poverty, fewer middle class individuals, and a group of rich people who are so scared of protecting their weath that they spend 200 days a year in the Bahammas to avoid US Taxes. That's not better off in my book.

All you are is mimicing the pissed off "They took our jobs" line that every other self righteous, and subsequently unemployed person uses. Next time, stop bitching, and start working to change your career or start your own business. You had savings, as you said -- you just werent willing to risk them to do your own thing.

Actually I did. They're gone now- the risk happened to be 100% just like it is with any small business. If you actually do have success, that's when the men come to break your kneecaps and threaten your family.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

You seam to me that you are just like all those other software engineers that thought they were worth so much, but soon found out that they werent. I have dozens of friends in various areas of the computer industry, some that have had career problems and some that have not. And the one thing that is true about 100% of the people I know who have had career problems is that they simply were not worth what their ego told them they were.

Or for that matter, anything at all. Yes, I totally agree with that- but if we're not worth anything, then neither are the CEOs or polticians.

If you are still working in the computer industry then lets hope you are at least making 25k a year right now. That means that if you took a 75% pay cut then you were making a 6-digit salary. I am sorry but if you were honestly worth that much money then you wouldnt have trouble finding a job in any economy. You may have had to take a cut to 50k or so in a bad economy, but would never have spent 26 months unemployed.

Actually, I'm earning 20k net now after all the deductions- was earning 80k net before. But I completely agree- nobody is worth that much.

People in the computer industry were being overpayed for so long that they got an inflated self image about what they were worth. If you are good at what you do and are worth what you are being payed then you WILL keep your job in ANY economy. Of course there are exceptions, but they are very few and far between.

Actually, what I learned is that attitude is completely false- if there's somebody who can do your job for $2.50/hr, they will get the job. Period. No matter how "good" you are at what you do.

It is said that 20% of the workforce does 80% of the work. Only the other 80% of the workers ever have to worry about losing their jobs because of a sagging economy. And those 80% only have other people to thank that they had those jobs in the first place. They shouldnt turn around a bitch that they arent getting a free ride anymore.

Quite possible- but I know a whole lot of people who were out longer than I was, who didn't take the pay cut, because they thought they were good to. They had a false sense of security- just like you do.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[GreyPoopon]

In other words, while incomes maybe have increased only two- or possibly three-fold in the past 30 years, real estate has gone up by an entire order of magnitude.

This is, at least in part, due to a credit-hungry society and lower interest rates. I know that 30 years ago, people would have been less willing to have such a large mortgage. Also, if I recall correctly, the interest rates in the 70s were sky high.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[robertjw]

Back when I was growing up, a cup of coffee or a loaf of bread cost a quarter, a shake 50 centers, you could get an entire meal for a buck, and $30,000 was the price of a house, not a car.

When I was growing up, pocket calculators were $200, computers were $10,000, Cable TV was for the rich people, and gym or country club memberships were way out of reach for the average person. Now you can get a gym membership for $20/month, everyone has cable, pocket calculators are extremely cheap, but no one buys them because they are already in their cell phones and I can buy a computer for $400. Not everything goes up in price and there is no entitlement for any company to increase their profits forever.

Then again, since none of those other things cost the same now as they did then, and since what was once a million dollar movie now routinely costs $50-100 million, why is it again that you're expecting to pay decades-old admission prices?

I don't think it's that we think we should pay decades-old prices, it's more that the quality of the movies (arguably) have dropped, the theatres are not run as well as they previously were and DVDs can be bought cheaper than a trip to the movies. Today there is more competition than ever for our entertainment dollar. 30 years ago there were movies, 3 TV channels, AM radio and vinyl. Now I've got 150+ TV channels, 150+ channes of satellite radio, CDs, DVDs, iTunes and the Internet. I would think a little competition for those entertainment dollars should drive prices down.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[pete6677]

Marxist hacker? You sound more like Pat Buchanan.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[monkeydo]

There is no valid reason the Harry Potter author can make over a BILLION dollars for a series of books- a few million (more than enough to live a lifetime) would have been more reasonable.

No valid reason? Why isn't she entitled to make whatever people are willing to pay?

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Leiterfluid]

And I usually don't.

Or I wait until the DVD comes out, and then I can buy it, and watch it as many times as I want.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[shmlco]

" Do you have the $30,000 or so that even an independant film costs to produce these days..."

No? Well, I suppose you could find backers for a project if you had a good script. 'Course the writer is going to want money, or at least a cut for said script. And the finance people are going to want a profit on the money they're risking. And I suppose that you, the actors, and all the other people involved, are going to want to eat and pay rent and so on while you're producing it.

And you'll need to score it. And edit it. And distribute it. All things that also require dollars that your backers need to front before it can even make a dime.

Wow. Maybe there's a reason why you can't go to the movies for a quarter...

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

That logic doesn't fly either. The second-run houses are, in effect, subsidized by the first-run houses. Without the first tier to pay for the bulk of the costs of the movie, the second tiers would no dobut need to charge more.

You're forgetting volume costs. Do it right- digital remastering so that you're not paying huge film development costs, actually using the technology instead of old techniques- and as one person mentioned, Primer only cost $7000 to produce. Get 7000 people to see it, and you've made back your "costs" even at only $2 a ticket.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Ironsides]

Unfortunately, that isn't even how the studios make the money. On the cost of US theatre tickets alone (as in, how much money the studios get from the US movie theatres) the movie companies (today) loose money. They make their money off of the foreign film market (as in, translated and/or released in other countries) and off the DVD sales/rentals.

So the studios lower prices to the first runs, but would have to make it up in other markets, maybe by raising the price of DVDs where they are currently sold for less than half as much in the US? (I've heard legal DVDs sell for $1 in China.)

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[thefirelane]

MOD DOWN

This is entirely incorrect. The taxes in dividends were reduced, but that did not have the effect described above.

Previously, the tax on long term capital gains was less. This means, instead of dividends, companies paid out profits to share holders by either buying back stock, or holding onto the cash (thereby increasing stock value). The problem with this, is that it placed pressure on companies to increase stock price, instead of simply paying higher dividends. The problem is that a higher stock price can be created through manipulation, whereas higher dividends can not be faked. This led to Enron and others, which is why the law needed to be changed.

The point of the story is that before, a hypothetical company would go from $100 to $125 whereas no it is more likely to go from $100 to $100 with a $25 dividend payout. The main point is that all the tax break did was change the channel through which the same money traveled. It did not have the effect described in the parent post.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[ckokotay]

I am dead center middle class total family size of 5, and I got what would end up being a HUGE tax cut, relative to income. You keep forgetting that people who make more money will receive a higher cut because they PAID more taxes. We already disproportionally tax the rich with the graduated income tax. You forget that the rich people you seem to loathe are the ones creating the jobs, and thus creating wealth. I have never seen a pverty stricken person employ anyone.

I swear, everyone in Slashdot anymore is just out to Bush bash, no matter what the cause, no matter what the issue. I personally will thank him for a nice extra chunk of change in my wallet.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Maxo-Texas]

There is an easy and obvious solution.

Stop living a lifestyle that requires debt.

You can eat out for lunch, or you can bring a sack lunch.

You can drive a new car, or a used one, or (as I did for a few years walk/ride the bus/ride a bike/ride a moped)

I wouldn't place the blame on dividend holders- it's reasonable to expect a 3-5% return on your money from dividends just like in a bank. What is unreasonable to everyone else is paying multi-millions to a single employee- and paying them that whether they do a good job or not- and paying them even more if you decide to let them go.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[SatanicPuppy]

Uhhhhhh, it's called "Capitalism", and it's based on the economic principles of "Supply" and "Demand".

Why does J.K Rowling make zillions of dollars? Because she sells zillions of books. Why do movie theaters cost 10 bucks a person? Because people pay it, and it makes the movies profitable. Why does Brad Pitt make millions for every movie? Because more people are willing to pay 10 dollars to see a movie with Brad Pitt than there are people willing to pay 10 dollars to see the same movie WITHOUT Brad Pitt.

Not that the MPAA wouldn't LOVE your idea. Pay Brad Pitt 100k...Think the cost of a ticket would go down at your local theater? Pay J.K Rowling 100k per book. Think they wouldn't still cost $27.99 in the store?

Don't blame the damn artists. Blame the system that's leeching off them.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[theblueprint]

A good friend of mine is the GM of a Cinemark. He's told me repeatedly that they only make money on the concessions. The price that studios charge theatres is reflected in the high price of the ticket.

He's got no real reason to lie to me, since I get discounted tickets from him ($1.50 cheaper). I found this out when he was admonishing me for smuggling in Taco Bell...Granted, there's a decent margin on the snacks, but that's where the Theaters make their money.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

outside of housing in certain markets.

I happen to be in one of those markets.

I'm not really buying that chain of events. Downsizing and outsourcing are happening for a number of reasons, but tracing them back to tax cuts (for individuals) through a convoluted link structure isn't all that believable.

Fine with me. All I know is that in the 1990s, businesses were willing to spend money on R&D- and now they aren't. At all.

4) Are you trying to support a family on your salary in a high cost of living market? Because that can be tough in any event.

Portland wasn't a high cost of living market to begin with- and it's still about 50% what it is in other cities- but it's most certainly on the rise and has been for the last 5 years. At the same time, personal income in general has been going down the tubes around here- but it's still better than Bangalore.

In any event, if your problem is that you're having trouble finding a job in IT, good luck (and I don't mean that sarcastically). If your problem is that you feel you're underpaid...thank a growing mass of IT workers here and worldwide driving down salaries through supply and demand. These days a diverse skillset is absolutely necessary to compete in the market.

And even then. I have 42 languages and 10 years of R&D on my resume- and the best I can do is contracting for the state at a rather low rate- far too low to support my lifestyle apparently.

Seriously, what are you trying to do?

Seriously? Just stay in my house without getting kicked out by the bank or being forced into bankruptcy. I've downgraded my dreams seriously.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

I am dead center middle class total family size of 5, and I got what would end up being a HUGE tax cut, relative to income.

How did you do that? Do you have a lot of investment income?

We already disproportionally tax the rich with the graduated income tax.

No place close- the average person earning over $100,000 a year pays a mere 11% of their income in taxes- back in the 1950s it would have been 92%.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[PacketScan]

The Philosophy has always been charge what the market will bare. Well it's obvious that your prices are too damn high if viewer turn out is dropping.. But why admit the truth when there is a Scape goat just waiting for you. The motion picture association needs to get there Facts strait.. And then They Spend 30 million on an ANTI piracy LAB.. UM what are you paying the MPAA for?

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[shmlco]

Most of the things that have gone down in price are things that can be stamped out 1,000 at a time like computer chips. Prices, however, for labor and time and material intensive items like cars and housing have increased dramatically.

Watch the "how it was made" portion of something like LOTR, and see just how many years and how many thousands of highly skilled people it took to produce a few hours of entertainment.

All done, I might add, in the HOPE that people would go to see it, and that if they did you MIGHT get your investment back.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Brushfireb]

Thus preventing 9-11. Thus preventing the nuke-and-meth invasion. The rest of the world has nothing we need. They've got stuff we want, but we could make it all here if we wanted to.

You really think closing our borders to international trade would have prevented 9/11? Please. I dont believe terrorists are that logical in any sense. They need someone to hate. If we closed our borders and didnt use their oil, they would hate us for that. Or they would hate us for not sharing food. Terrorists are not logical people, dont give them such credit.

The Meth invasion?? Dude, how would closing our borders prevent illegal drugs from being manufactured here? Just like during prohibition, a closing of the borders would just improve shady dealings more than they are even today. More thugs, more drug money, more incidental death. Besdies, what do you care if some jackhole wants to kill himself with meth. I certainly dont, as long as I dont get caught in some crossfire of bullets between him and a rival.

Maybe it should. Maybe we should start killing the free traitors.

Whatever that means, Im not sure. Regardless, the whole line about killing anyone arbitrarily just doesnt fly. Who decides? you? Great. Anarchy. Certainly a lot of people decide, but its not any one individuals role to make such decisions quickly and without trial. Nice try, hitler.

Better off how? All I see is MORE poverty, fewer middle class individuals, and a group of rich people who are so scared of protecting their weath that they spend 200 days a year in the Bahammas to avoid US Taxes. That's not better off in my book.

I agree. I'm not saying we are doing that great of a job currently. All I am arguing is that things would be worse given your set of parameters. Do you think all those "People with money" would just stick around and wait for the local isolated economy to tank? Fuck no. They would take their money to Geneva and then the US would be a country full of people without enough money to re-jumpstart it.

Businesses, of any time, require two things: Human Capital and Financial Capital. If the financial capital goes away, you are stuck.

Actually I did. They're gone now- the risk happened to be 100% just like it is with any small business. If you actually do have success, that's when the men come to break your kneecaps and threaten your family.

No. Thats not how it works. This isnt china. I have had numerous small businesses, and no one came to break my kneecaps. Unless you deal in drugs, guns, gambling, or prostitution, I really cant see your situation happening to average business people. It just doesnt happen anymore.

Perhaps its time for some personal responsibility. Isnt it at least remotely possible that the reason you are where you are is because of decisions you made? Sure its convenient to blame the easy targets, but you are in your situation due to your own mistakes. It takes a strong man to admit that hes a failure due to his own mistakes, and an even stronger one to fix it once he has made that realization.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Marxist hacker? You sound more like Pat Buchanan.

Marxism becomes a lot simpler when you have a net exporting country instead of a net importing country. America hasn't been net exporting since the 1960s. The FIRST rule of having a local economy is that it must be locally self-sustaining. America as a whole isn't self-sustaining anymore. Pat Buchanan is RIGHT on this issue. Perhaps for the wrong reasons- but he's got the right conclusion.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Are the studios behind the indies in the use of technology? Tim Burton's latest film took a while- but it was made with clay and digital cameras.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[AdderD]

Care to back up the remark about people making over 100,000 paying only 11% of their income in taxes? I pay more than that and I make a lot less than 100,000. And there IS a graduated tax system and the top end is 35% now. So how do they magically go from 35% to 11%?

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Brushfireb]

Regardless of what makes marxism simpler, its still a failed concept.

At its base, marxism assumes that society is made up of two distinct, non-mixing classes (a la Owners vs Workers, proletariat vs bourgeoisie). This is a critical flaw, especially when applied to societies like the US, where many begin as one and end as another. This is all aside from the fact that we have more than two classes. At very least, there are five in the US. The unemployed poor, the working poor, the middle, the middle upper, and the elite. The dynamics between these classes are not so simply defined as Marx would prefer.

Simple put, Marx was a hack with a great ability to swing others to his views. His theories are base and elementary and they dont allow real societies to function. Hence the failing / transformations of most communist countries into functional socialism.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[AdderD]

If only I had mod points and hadn't already posted in this discussion... I would have modded you up for sure. You hit the nail on the head on both accounts: People need to live responsibly and CEO's and other bigwigs need to have performance based salaries and be able to be canned as easy as anyone else (with NO severance package!)

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[crabpeople]

well he was talking about the 1990s and your talking about the ~50s?

I remember seeing plenty of first or second run movies at the eaton center in toronto for 2.50 matenee and 4.25 evenings, up until they closed around 1999. AND you could drink liquor and sometimes if you got lucky smoke weed in the theaters.

good times

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[drsquare]

In other words, if you don't like the price of something, take it illegally instead. It's not your fault for breaking the law, it's someone else's fault for pricing it wrong. After all, Slashdot posters have a god-given right to DEMAND how anyone else does business.

I believe in the free market. If you don't like the price of something, don't buy it. I think that Premiership football clubs charge too much for tickets. But I don't climb over the gate and sneak into the stadium, I just don't go. Simple, no?

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Mr. Underbridge]

I happen to be in one of those markets.

I am too, so at least believe me when I say I know what you're talking about.

Fine with me. All I know is that in the 1990s, businesses were willing to spend money on R&D- and now they aren't. At all.

Huh? No R&D for what industry? As someone who got one of those nonexistent R&D jobs this year, I'm going to have to question that. R&D hiring has bounced back rather well in most science fields since 2000.

Portland wasn't a high cost of living market to begin with- and it's still about 50% what it is in other cities- but it's most certainly on the rise and has been for the last 5 years.

Yeah, I'm in DC so no believe me, it's a lot worse here.

And even then. I have 42 languages and 10 years of R&D on my resume- and the best I can do is contracting for the state at a rather low rate- far too low to support my lifestyle apparently.

The number of languages you know isn't an indication of your value, if you spend time learning more than a handfull you're wasting your time and employers won't be impressed. What were your 10 yrs R&D spent doing? And when I said diversity of skills, I didn't mean the number of programming languages you know. What are you trained in other than programming? Are you trained in anything to which you might apply that programming skill?

Seriously? Just stay in my house without getting kicked out by the bank or being forced into bankruptcy. I've downgraded my dreams seriously.

Well, yeah. Owning a house on sporadic contracting work isn't going to cut it. I'm completely guessing here, but if your work history started in 95 and got tough in the last 5 years, you might find that the world you knew 95-2000 isn't a realistic one. Your expectations might not match reality. I don't own a house, if you live in a big city that is quite a luxury.

Honestly - and I mean absolutely no offense - but I don't think I'd blame macroeconomics for your problems. There are quite likely things you can to to better your situation, and there are full time jobs that certainly can be had. And I don't mean to be condescending or judgemental if anything came off that way. But the mid 90's are never coming back, and it may take some pride swallowing to take a position that might not be ideal but gets you on the path you want.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

You really think closing our borders to international trade would have prevented 9/11? Please. I dont believe terrorists are that logical in any sense. They need someone to hate. If we closed our borders and didnt use their oil, they would hate us for that. Or they would hate us for not sharing food. Terrorists are not logical people, dont give them such credit.

I didn't say it would keep them from being terrorists- I said it would have prevented 9/11. A truly closed border wouldn't let people come across- they wouldn't be able to get here.

The Meth invasion?? Dude, how would closing our borders prevent illegal drugs from being manufactured here?

Only 25% of the Meth used in the United States is manufactured in the United States. The rest is manufactured by the MS 13 drug gang in Mexico and smuggled across the border. By closing the Southern Border, and by actually putting troops on it and planting land mines, there would be no invasion. Or at least, no successfull invasion.

Just like during prohibition, a closing of the borders would just improve shady dealings more than they are even today. More thugs, more drug money, more incidental death.

Exactly- and especially that last one- more incidental death. That's what we need to deal with the rest of the world- because that's what the rest of the world wants for us.

Besdies, what do you care if some jackhole wants to kill himself with meth. I certainly dont, as long as I dont get caught in some crossfire of bullets between him and a rival.

It's more the burglary that gets to me- using meth and creating meth should carry the death penalty if we want our culture back.

Whatever that means, Im not sure. Regardless, the whole line about killing anyone arbitrarily just doesnt fly. Who decides? you? Great. Anarchy.

If you don't want anarchy- then work for justice instead of profit. Until then, I will protect my own from all enemies, domestic and foreign.

Certainly a lot of people decide, but its not any one individuals role to make such decisions quickly and without trial. Nice try, hitler.

Fine- then don't make economic decisions that hurt my family. Otherwise, you will pay, one way or another. Don't like it- well, it was your choice to be a traitor to America.

I agree. I'm not saying we are doing that great of a job currently. All I am arguing is that things would be worse given your set of parameters. Do you think all those "People with money" would just stick around and wait for the local isolated economy to tank?

No- but neither would they be allowed to sell here anymore, and we could confiscate their property as they left.

Fuck no. They would take their money to Geneva and then the US would be a country full of people without enough money to re-jumpstart it.

Not if we don't allow them to take their money with them- closing the borders means closing all the borders- INCLUDING the international wire transfer funds and the ways out of the country. Let them leave- but they take NOTHING with them. They can leave all they want- but the money belongs to the government (that's why past president's pictures are on it).

Businesses, of any time, require two things: Human Capital and Financial Capital. If the financial capital goes away, you are stuck.

True- but the government controls the financial capital in all respects- and thus has the right to confiscate it.

No. Thats not how it works. This isnt china. I have had numerous small businesses, and no one came to break my kneecaps. Unless you deal in drugs, guns, gambling, or prostitution, I really cant see your situation happening to average business people. It just doesnt happen anymore.

Maybe you were just never successfull enough to threaten a Fortune 500 company.

Perhaps its time for some personal responsibility. Isnt it at least remotely possible that the reason you are

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[lgw]

The top 1% of income earners pay 33% of all income taxes, the bottom 33% of income earners pay 1% of all income taxes. Sounds progressive to me.

Did you notice that when Reagan cut the top tax bracket back from 70% that federal revenues actually went up? The purpose of the tax system is to fund the federal government, not to punish success. Though given that you're a self-described Marxist, you probably think the reverse should be true. Marx was a fool and his ideas have killed tens of millions.

I'm not wealthy now, but one day I'll be living on my savings and those dividend tax cuts will come in quite handy, thank you!

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Huh? No R&D for what industry? As someone who got one of those nonexistent R&D jobs this year, I'm going to have to question that. R&D hiring has bounced back rather well in most science fields since 2000.

It's possible- I've been out of the job market for 2 years now. Do you know of any good software R&D jobs? I'd much rather be doing that than building back end objects in ancient computer languages to manage EEO information for the state.

Yeah, I'm in DC so no believe me, it's a lot worse here.

I can believe that- of course, at least you're paying taxes primarily to local governments, instead of bundling up tax money to send 3000 miles away to a bunch of people who don't care.

The number of languages you know isn't an indication of your value, if you spend time learning more than a handfull you're wasting your time and employers won't be impressed. What were your 10 yrs R&D spent doing?

Gaming industry, Measurement Industry, and Healthcare industry- I knew HIPPA inside and out when the crash came.

And when I said diversity of skills, I didn't mean the number of programming languages you know. What are you trained in other than programming?

Absolutely nothing- it was assumed when I was in college that general programming was enough. That was of course, a lie.

Are you trained in anything to which you might apply that programming skill?

Nope. And that's where the problem lies.

Well, yeah. Owning a house on sporadic contracting work isn't going to cut it. I'm completely guessing here, but if your work history started in 95 and got tough in the last 5 years, you might find that the world you knew 95-2000 isn't a realistic one. Your expectations might not match reality. I don't own a house, if you live in a big city that is quite a luxury.

True enough- that was a HUGE mistake, one that I cannot get out of easily.

Honestly - and I mean absolutely no offense - but I don't think I'd blame macroeconomics for your problems. There are quite likely things you can to to better your situation, and there are full time jobs that certainly can be had. And I don't mean to be condescending or judgemental if anything came off that way. But the mid 90's are never coming back, and it may take some pride swallowing to take a position that might not be ideal but gets you on the path you want.

Those days could come back- and more- but it would take courage that is not seen in this land anymore. I'm learning permaculture- I see that as the future since America can't be bothered to innovate anymore and the credit train is going to run out eventually.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Suzumushi]

Although large cineplexes, home theaters, and poor quality movies are as much to blame as anything else for the disappearance of the old second-run or third-run theaters and the reduction in customer base for theaters in general, piracy has little blame for this.

This is really a question of perceived value. Bread, gasoline, homes, etc. are necessities, whereas a movie is a luxury. This changes the point of pricing to be more influenced by perceived value (demand) rather than cost of production and supply. Especially since today, supply for IP is essentially infinite.

It is my belief that movies and music are hugely overvalued, just like the "artists and actors" compensations for said "work."

Perhaps the real reason that the MPAA is so upset about piracy is that it shows peoples' changing perception of the perceived value of a movie. The gripe I really have with the MPAA/RIAA is that rather than focus on the macro-economic issues affecting their industry, they continue to focus on the relatively minor impact of piracy. They attempt to legitimize this by making ridiculous claims of billions of dollars lost to piracy.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Maxo-Texas]

Errr, Firefly.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[tepples]

You can drive a new car, or a used one, or (as I did for a few years) walk/ride the bus/ride a bike/ride a moped

Walk or ride a bike or moped in 95 degree F heat or 29 degree F cold or strong thunderstorms? Walk how many miles between work and affordable housing? Remember that the buses are closed on nights, Sundays, and holidays even if your employer schedules you at those times.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

By having the majority of their income from tax free dividends, they reduce their AGI to down near your level. In addition to that, there are a good many other tax shelters that are only available to those who are far richer than you are. I know- back in the day I used to take advantage of some of them.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[lgw]

had made all the right choices ... I was studying .NET and Java Enterprise ... Then 26 months of unemployment followed by a 75% reduction in pay changed all that

Perhaps those choices you thought were right were ... not? Did Bush beat you up and take your lunch money, or did the world simply disagree with you about which choices were good?

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[lgw]

Man, that movie was just lame. It started so well and then .. went nowhere! But that's what makes market capitalism cool - you neither of us have to buy a DVD of a movie the other found to be lame (which I think was pretty much your point).

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

The top 1% of income earners pay 33% of all income taxes, the bottom 33% of income earners pay 1% of all income taxes. Sounds progressive to me.

In the 1950s when we had a truly progressive income- the top 1% payed 99% of the income taxes. And that was the greatest decade of economic growth and prosperity ever.

Did you notice that when Reagan cut the top tax bracket back from 70% that federal revenues actually went up?

Yes- and I noticed in the same time period my generation saw a major decrease in standard of living.

The purpose of the tax system is to fund the federal government, not to punish success.

Wrong. The purpose of the tax system, and the monetary system, is to provide for the general welfare and the common defense, as put forth in the Constitution. Businesses and corporations have no inherant right to exist at all.

Though given that you're a self-described Marxist, you probably think the reverse should be true.

I do- but it's because I'm a Jeffersonian, not a Marxist. Marx was about 80 years too late, and had some bad ideas as well (thus HACKER in my name- my hobby is hacking economic systems, much like my job is programming computer systems).

Marx was a fool and his ideas have killed tens of millions.

And Jefferson was also a fool- but his idea created the first middle class ever seen in history. Since then people like you have been trying to destroy it.

I'm not wealthy now, but one day I'll be living on my savings and those dividend tax cuts will come in quite handy, thank you!

What makes you think you'll be allowed to become wealthy at all?

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Maxo-Texas]

The only reason they can charge that much is that thousands of other actors, directors, and people who want to enteratin you are being shut out by the current system.
---
They -will- be replaced by hordes of people who are happy to act, direct, write and edit for reasonable rates. It's pretty presumptious to say that while the population has increased the number of spots for top actors has stayed the same.
---
The cost of a ticket in my local theatre will not go down. But the cost of downloading a movie from some enterprising finns will- and when I can download their show inexpensively (or free in some cases)- I won't spend money filling those 2 hours of entertainment.
---
When I download inexpensive songs off of Magnatune and similar services- that is time I don't have available to spend money filling with expensive RIAA/MPAA product.
---
The ticket's won't decrease in price- but the model is broken- we consumers will find away around it. Already the stars of "Desparate Housewives" (A monster hit) can't pull a FRACTION of what the stars of Mash pulled. When the market is fractures sufficiently, cost will become a factor. When we not only get to chose but MUST choose between 40 equally entertaining shows, movies and songs- cost is an excellent way to decide what to listen to and what to pass on.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[VAXGeek]

Couldn't have said it better myself! If I was out of work for 26 months, I would probably start to post nonsense as well.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Mr. Underbridge]

It's possible- I've been out of the job market for 2 years now. Do you know of any good software R&D jobs? I'd much rather be doing that than building back end objects in ancient computer languages to manage EEO information for the state.

Well, the question is what field you want to do R&D for? Software is not in and of itself R&D (well, the D part). My company does almost all R, with a little D that sometimes involves software. If I were you, I'd talk up the non-programming skills that you have, especially if you have training or anything in either business or the sciences.

Nope. And that's where the problem lies.

Ouch. I feel really bad for you, because that's the group of people getting hit the hardest. It might be worth it to try to get on with a company that does some applied research, even if it's a lower-paying job than you'd like, if it helps you learn some non-coding jobs.

True enough- that was a HUGE mistake, one that I cannot get out of easily.

That really sucks. Surely if housing has gone up there you have some equity, though?

Those days could come back- and more- but it would take courage that is not seen in this land anymore. I'm learning permaculture- I see that as the future since America can't be bothered to innovate anymore and the credit train is going to run out eventually.

Nah, the mid 90s was a bubble built on speculation and fake money. The first thing you have to realize is the 90's wasn't even real. It was fantasyland. But there are good jobs out there - the problem is, there are fewer jobs for programmers now, and lots more programmers. That's a disaster. My advice to you is to distinguish yourself somehow from the horde of IT people. Get some training in business or science, either from a school or from a company where you work undervalued for a while as you pick it up.

And good luck. I lucked out a bit - I liked science and CS, majored in chemistry with a minor in CS, eventually wen to grad school and worked on projects dealing with algorithms to deal with sensor data. From that I got an R&D job...coding. I didn't know that was practically the ideal path at the time, but it's what Uninversities are highly recommending these days. Jobs want to see a different skillset these days compared to the mid 90s.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Regardless of what makes marxism simpler, its still a failed concept.

Then why is Wal*Mart still using it?

At its base, marxism assumes that society is made up of two distinct, non-mixing classes (a la Owners vs Workers, proletariat vs bourgeoisie). This is a critical flaw, especially when applied to societies like the US, where many begin as one and end as another.

Name one- I can't. Every successfull "businessman" I've seen started out with an inheritance.

This is all aside from the fact that we have more than two classes.

True enough- but historically we haven't, and naturally we don't, and right now, there's a great attempt to push us back to two.

At very least, there are five in the US. The unemployed poor, the working poor, the middle, the middle upper, and the elite.

Three of which are directly and currently under attack: The unemployed poor (Welfare reform says either work or die); the middle (being pushed into poverty by the housing bubble and fake "interest only" loans that force defaults); and the upper middle (who are losing what investments they have to stock market con artists). Very soon, only Marx's natural two will be left- and that's the way the elites like it.

The dynamics between these classes are not so simply defined as Marx would prefer.

True- in reality one of them is attempting to concentrate the other 4 into a single slave class.

Simple put, Marx was a hack with a great ability to swing others to his views. His theories are base and elementary and they dont allow real societies to function. Hence the failing / transformations of most communist countries into functional socialism.

And yet the multinational corporations are succeeding in using those same theories to transform this capitalist country into a two-class system.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[lgw]

What makes you think you'll be allowed to become wealthy at all?

Well, you do have 1 good point in your rant. But I'll keep voting for less intrusive government and hoping for the best. Some bastard like you will probably come along and raise my taxes to the point I can no longer save, however.

What you completely fail to realized is that the rich-vs-poor divide is much less significant than the now-vs-then divide. 99% of Americans have a higher standard of living than 95% of humans who have ever lived. I could care less how much better off the rich are (those bastards) compared to me, what matters is making my standard of living go up. And the success of my society in general (i.e., not punishing success) is far more important to that goal than some silly idea about redistributing income.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Well, the question is what field you want to do R&D for? Software is not in and of itself R&D (well, the D part). My company does almost all R, with a little D that sometimes involves software. If I were you, I'd talk up the non-programming skills that you have, especially if you have training or anything in either business or the sciences.

I don't- beyond algorithim theory. Software was at one time almost all R very little D- and the more R you can do in software the more R you can do.

Ouch. I feel really bad for you, because that's the group of people getting hit the hardest. It might be worth it to try to get on with a company that does some applied research, even if it's a lower-paying job than you'd like, if it helps you learn some non-coding jobs.

I tried- most of those companies now do all their coding overseas where the cost of living is much less. Even classics like Microsoft and Oracle are now removing all R&D from these shores.

That really sucks. Surely if housing has gone up there you have some equity, though?

Not enough to cover my prepayment penalties. Just remember- if anybody offers you a loan at a low rate, count your fingers, then your toes, then your relatives. Something will be missing somewhere.

Nah, the mid 90s was a bubble built on speculation and fake money.

All money is fake- it's a fiat currency owned by the government after all.

The first thing you have to realize is the 90's wasn't even real. It was fantasyland.

Of course it wasn't real- but neither is making products in the United States anymore. Free trade has done away with the need to produce stuff locally.

But there are good jobs out there - the problem is, there are fewer jobs for programmers now, and lots more programmers. That's a disaster. My advice to you is to distinguish yourself somehow from the horde of IT people. Get some training in business or science, either from a school or from a company where you work undervalued for a while as you pick it up.

And I do that how? Borrow more money from the usurious banking industry? That will just push me into bankruptcy faster.

And good luck. I lucked out a bit - I liked science and CS, majored in chemistry with a minor in CS, eventually wen to grad school and worked on projects dealing with algorithms to deal with sensor data. From that I got an R&D job...coding. I didn't know that was practically the ideal path at the time, but it's what Uninversities are highly recommending these days. Jobs want to see a different skillset these days compared to the mid 90s.

And a much lower standard of living in their workers. It just doesn't pay to do R&D here anymore.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Neil Blender]

Have you seen this (spoiler):

http://neuwanstein.fw.hu/primer_timeline.html

The movie didn't go nowhere, it went everywhere.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Maxo-Texas]

Walk, Ride a bike in 95 degree heat. Check (Peak temp was 106 degrees)
---
Walk/Run 1.6 miles to make the bus after work. Check
---
Wait for the buses to start again at 5am so I could go home and get some sleep before turning right around and going back to work. Check (sometimes just -walked- the 8.9 miles home in 3 hours- got home about 4am)
---
Ride a bicycle 8.9 miles -each way- (~45 minutes) to get from my affordable housing to my $8/hour job. Check. (started regularly getting off after the last bus- got a used 10 speed bike for $45)
---
Ride a bike in temps down to 22 degrees. Check.
---
Ride a moped in 33 degree rain to work and school. Check. (ah it as glorious to finally save up enough for $630 moped).
---
Occasionally get soaked in thunderstorms or wait until they finished. Check
---
Go to community college, then real college and self-train for 11 years so I didn't have to do that any more. Check.
---
Done all that. Know all that. Had no help from anyone (not even grants). Mother didn't finish high-school, had no dad. Not particularly smart (just not actively dumb or self-destructive).
---
I was dirt poor for at least 7 years. Part of that I was dirt poor AND supporting a wife and child.
---
You can ALWAYS make excuses why you can't succeed but the fact is people until very recently (last 40-50 years) had it much harder than us and they survived and got by.
---
Make the sacrifices and never give up and you have a shot and getting ahead. Life is never certain.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Well, you do have 1 good point in your rant. But I'll keep voting for less intrusive government and hoping for the best. Some bastard like you will probably come along and raise my taxes to the point I can no longer save, however.

Apparently you haven't noticed yet- that's already happened. Of course, it's not GOVERNMENT taxes- it's CORPORATE taxes- but the whole point in a savings account or an investment account is to make money for the bank or the investment house- on high risk to the investors with little or no risk to the bank.

What you completely fail to realized is that the rich-vs-poor divide is much less significant than the now-vs-then divide. 99% of Americans have a higher standard of living than 95% of humans who have ever lived. I could care less how much better off the rich are (those bastards) compared to me, what matters is making my standard of living go up.

For the last 30 years- the American standard of living has been going DOWN not UP.

And the success of my society in general (i.e., not punishing success) is far more important to that goal than some silly idea about redistributing income.

Sorry- not punishing success means that in general (that is when you take the ENTIRE population into account) you only have two real classes- the con artists and the conned. Guess which you are- you poor blind bastard.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Deagol]

You're seriously telling me that if I grossed $100k in the 50's I would only net $8k? Sounds a tad extreme.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[westlake]

which makes me wonder how much Tim Burton's latest claymation cost- done with a relatively cheap digital camera

To begin, the puppets in "Corpse Bride"are silicon skins over stainless steel armatures.

The camera has always been a trivial part of the cost of stop-motion animation. Each figure has to be manipulated by hand, frame by frame. Precise, demanding, labor-intensive work. Two minutes of film per week. 'Bride' Stripped Bare

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[shmlco]

Corpse Bride was budgeted at $40 million dollars. Puppets were rumoured at being $30,000 each. The "cheap" digital camera was a Canon EOS-1D Mark II at $8,000 a pop, not counting the custom adaptors so they could use their existing Nikon lenses. And they used 24 of them ($192,000). Filming took not the traditional 12-14 weeks of a normal production, but 52 weeks, not including pre or post-production.

Yep. Definitely sounds deflationary...

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[DavidTC]

There are many community theaters that show movies in between putting on plays and whatnot. There's one where I live that shows movies from about two months ago that are four dollars.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[scapermoya]

dont get me started on hugely regressive taxes like, lets see, sales tax. there is no question that an averge middle class family with little to no investment income got less than they deserved compared to the wealthier people. I cant fathom why anyone but the wealthy would support this guy.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Maxo-Texas]

Let me expand on it this way. Is it reasonable for me to pay $19.99 for the -exact- same movie that a chinese citizen pays $2.75 for (legal copy- not pirated).
--
Is it reasonable for me to pay $450 for the exact same program that an indian citizen pays $12 for?
--
Is it morally correct that they cannot resale those products to me for whatever price I'm willing to pay them? (yet it is prohibited).
--
Why do I have to pay $80 for the exact same drugs that are sold elsewhere for $4?
--
How is it fair to the poor of america that they are subsidizing the middle-class of other countries?

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[tepples]

I have a college degree, but I have no paid experience, and there seems to be no IT work in Fort Wayne, Indiana. Even trying for part-time minimum wage work gets me "Sorry, we went with another candidate".

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[lgw]

*Spoilers below!*

Yeah, but I've seen and read many, many time-travel stories, and this one just wasn't very well thought out, especially his idea of how causality would work (though he gets definite credit for the whole third time machine plotline). More importantly, it stopped being suspenseful to me about half-way through. "Oh, just another time machine movie, I know how this ends." There needed to be a *point* to the technology, some problem beyond their falling out with each other to solve, either an external problem they found themselves uniquiely equipped to solve, or a *big* problem of their own making they had to deal with.

But then, I still don't understand why Blair Witch was supposed to be scary or suspenseful either, so maybe I just lack sympathy for characters who get themselves into trouble through simple irresponsibility.

Perhaps it was better than most Hollywood time travel, but it was not up to the standards of good literary SF time travel.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[scapermoya]

youre misguided. the purpose of the tax system is to fund the contextual framework that allows for success. People who have succeeded and made themselves rich arent being punished, they never would have been able to do what they did had it not been for both the lower classes and the infrastructure. Marx is misunderstood to the naive. Radical totalitarian implementations of his ideas have killed millions; dont confuse stalinism and marxism. Before the communist revolution in china, a vast majority of the people were starving to death. Look at china now. Considering interest rates, dividend earnings from savings are negligable compared to dividend earnings from stock, which is the point of the tax. Try making money without the direct or indirect use of people poorer than yourself, then complain about progressive tax.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Mr. Underbridge]

The first thing I'd say is that you're right - the mainstream software industry doesn't do much research anymore, and what is being done is being done by engineers and Ph.Ds. If that describes you, then you're OK, but if not, you're fighting an uphill battle. That's one thing. Also, these days companies actually have to show a profit - unlike the 90's, when VC money just flew in the windows and companies could screw around however they want. I can't impress enough upon you how different industry is now.

Also, try smaller companies if you're trying to get your foot in the door, *especially* if your experience/education isn't what they're used to hiring. You won't get anyone with intelligence through HR at a big company. Try some botique companies where you'll be able to possibly get in contact with the person making the hire, which allows you to directly convince them your skills and experience will translate. I had this problem too - my experience is algorithms and such, my education is chemistry. I couldn't get GE, P&G, etc to return emails. I eventually caught on with a company of about 120.

Take a look at your resume too - definitely stress what you've accomplished as opposed to what you know (you need both, but they're impressed by your ability to lead projects and such). Show the applications of your skills. Try to put a diversity of experiences on there, because you never know what'll catch a manager's eye.

The bottom line is that jobs are out there. I know you're frustrated, but you've got to take the attitude that you'll get it done somehow, and figure out how to get there. Right now you seem to have convinced yourself that you can't get a job - I don't want to sound like some idiot self-help guru, but as long as you think that way you'll be right.

If you can't/won't go back for further education, then take your time and find some small company that develops algorithms for specific applications. That would allow you to learn their business as you do your job. After a few years in a job like that, you have a new skillset and field-specific training. I would definitely look outside the realm of the classic software industry, because you're right, they're cutting jobs wherever they can. You're right, they're outsourcing - that means it's damned important to know how to do things that the average Bangalorian doesn't.

Also consider where growth is. I tell you what, nothing's growing faster than the defense industry. What's your education level? They need lots of math-inclined people, analysts, etc.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[JumperCables233]

Here's the trick though: Movie prices don't follow the same inflation pattern as other things. Things have gone up in price, but the local theater where I'm from has gone from $7.00 to $9.50 in a around 3-4 years. Now, I'm not all that great at math, but that looks shockingly like around 10% increase per year. That's not the current 3-4% inflation rate.

Plus, I hate to be the one to say this, but throwing more money at movies doesn't make them any better. Let me give examples: Van Helsing, Alexander, Waterworld (i cringed when I wrote that one). Great movies can be made on small budgets when things are done right. Even LOTR had a smallish budget of 300 million when you consider that it was 3 movies total and 12 hours long when the final extended editions were released.

Hollywood needs to try this on for size: make better movies. make them cheaper. lower prices. watch profit margins soar.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[shmlco]

I think athletes are overpaid, but quite literally millions of people go tearing off each weekend to sit in stadiums watching their favorite pitcher or quarterback.

Millions of people like Angelina Jolie, and will pay to see her in a film. What's the impact on your bottom line if she's in your movie? What's the impact if she's in someone else's? If a hot star can bring in an extra $10 million in revenue, what's she worth?

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[robertjw]

Most of the things that have gone down in price are things that can be stamped out 1,000 at a time like computer chips.

And DVDs. There are many things in the movie industry that are much simpler and cheaper than they used to be. As you pointed out, labor and material intensive items are the most expensive, but CGI is MUCH cheaper than the old modeling techniques that were used previously.

The biggest cost increase in the movies are the actor's salaries. I would imagine that's why LOTR didn't have a lot of star power. Many of the actors (like Viggo Mortensen and Orlando Bloom) weren't exactly household names before LOTR was filmed. I imagine that may have fueled the decision to film all three movies at once. If the movies had been wildly successful (like they are) the actors would have demanded ridiculous salaries.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[shmlco]

"Absolutely nothing- it was assumed when I was in college that general programming was enough."

You should be chipping in on one of those threads where people complain that they need to take business and science and english classes when all they want to do is learn PHP.

People hire programmers to solve domain-specific problems. It helps when you hire a person to work on your accounting system that they actually understand business processes and accounting...

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[shmlco]

Should read "The Two-Income Trap" by Elizabeth Warren. She maintains (and has the numbers to back it up) that the major increases stem from two income families competing against single income families, higher demand due to parents trying to position themselves in preferential school districts, and finally, due to predatory "low interest" lending practices.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[cpt kangarooski]

No, Firefox was thinking in Russian, alright. Firefly would probably involve thinking in Chinese.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

You should be chipping in on one of those threads where people complain that they need to take business and science and english classes when all they want to do is learn PHP.

That's for sure- unless you know something else and can prove it, you're virtually unemployable these days.

People hire programmers to solve domain-specific problems. It helps when you hire a person to work on your accounting system that they actually understand business processes and accounting...

Oh, we had the theory of both- didn't make much sense beyond myth to me though, nobody could tell me any non-religious reason for the time value of money.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Taladar]

Nobody forced them to produce the movie that way. You know, a while ago there were these directors that knew how to avoid an expensive special effect in a way so the viewer doesn't even notice. They (and not only the directors) knew how to entertain the people without throwing vast amounts of money at the problem. And if you need a special effect it doesn't have to be ultra-realistic to be convincing. Most classics in movie history don't entertain the viewers with special effects (or top-class 20 million/movie actors for that matter), they do it with an actual interesting and/or funny story.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Exactly right- though that wasn't too shabby in those days, the average salary being less than $4k/year. The point was one Jefferson made- preventing a noble class from arising. You see, in the 1890s we had the first big rise in individual income- and we did see a noble class arise (at least they had the concept of Noblese Oblige- the obligation of the rich to the poor- that's why you see Carnege libraries and Rockefeller art centers all over the country) and it ended in the Great Depression. In the 1980s and 1990s and early 2000s we saw a similar rise of a noble class- and I suspect it's ending much the same way.

Noble right of inheritance is bad for everybody- you can either limit it on income or on death, but if you fail to limit it at all it trends towards a two-class society with no mobility.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Bios_Hakr]

I'd go the other way. Tickets should be cranked up till only people who really want to see a flick could go.

If everyone was paying $30/seat, maybe they'd remember to turn off their cell phones.

Oh, and do a DVD release at the same time as the theatre release. That'd do a lot to stop piracy. Most people would rather spend $15~20 on a DVD vice spending two days downloading a flcik of unknown quality.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Maxo-Texas]

As I said. Life is never certain. Do everything you can't and don't give up. If you can't get IT, get a sales job. If there is no work in Fort Wayne then you may need to move to another location.
--
It could be that you do everything right and you still will be hosed. Mean while a raging dunderhead may become wealthy. Life is a crapshoot. We can shift the odds in our favor but we may still lose.
--
But if we charge up a huge credit card bill instead of moving in with our parents or moving to another city, we drink, smoke, even date when we can't afford it, then we shift the odds against us. We are responsible for our lives even if we can't control them beyond our own actions and attitudes.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[lgw]

the whole point in a savings account or an investment account is to make money for the bank or the investment house- on high risk to the investors with little or no risk to the bank.

Well, some people choose such accounts - it's still pretty much a free country after all, but each investment choice has it's on risk/reward tradeoffs, and there are lots of choices. As long as you actually understand risk (and how to price things like ARMs and callable bonds, at leats qualitatively) it's not a problem. Did you know that the children of rich Americans bebefit more (statistically speaking) from the knowledge they inherit than from any money they may inherit? Once you know how money works it's easy enough to build wealth, and all you really need to start with is a decent understanding of math.

A savings account is a poor choice, even amoung cash-equivalent investments, but is there to cushion you in time of disaster, so it has its place. There are so many choices for investment:

• TIPS - only currency risk.
  
• Gov't bonds - inflation and currency risk, but no investment risk.
  
• Corporate bonds (and preferred stock) and mortgage-backed securities - inflation and currency risk, limited investment risk.
  
• Developed real estate - very limited inflation risk, moderate investment risk.
  
• Common stock (and debentures, and some convertable bonds) - large investment risk, small inflation risk, limited or no currency risk (if you take advantage of international markets).
  
• Purely defensive (or speculative, if played that way): undeveloped real estate, commodities, collectibles, the house you live in - no real inflation or currency risk, investment risk varies.
  
• Start your own business and make jobs for others! The most risk for the most reward, and seemingly the most punished by our tax code.

I'm sure you have a reason why each of these is a scam? If I thought banks and brokers did so well, I'd just buy stock in banks and brokers.

For the last 30 years- the American standard of living has been going DOWN not UP.

Well, people define "standard of living" in different ways. If you define standard of living as "one's ability to smoke some weed without being Hassled by The Man" then - actually I have no idea. But if you define it in terms of real purchasing power then the median American's purchasing power has gone up by more than 50% over that time period (hooray for technology). Purchasing power per household has gone up only modestly, but the nuber of people per houseold has gone way down.

Speaking of which, the average number of rooms per American in living space has gone from significantly less than one per person to more than one per person. Great news for kids, as sharing a bedroom has become quite rare (new two bedroom houses simply aren't build in my area, as there's just no demand, and 4 bedrooms is the most common arrangement - I never saw a 4 bedroom house growing up!). We seem to be doing better in terms of territory as well.

The safety, quality, and performance of a car one can buy for, say, 6 months' pay has gone way up. Air travel was a rare luxury 30 years ago, and it's clear from looking around an airplane that *anyone* can fly these days. The quality of computer you can buy has gone up at an unbelievable rate.

Unless you want to define "standard of living" in some non-economic way, you've really got to reach to find even a single aspect of life that hasn't gotten better. Your pessimism is unjustified.

Sorry- not punishing success means that in general (that is when you take the ENTIRE population into account) you only have two real classes- the con artists and the conned. Guess which you are- you poor blind bastard.

Not to dump on you when you've gone through hard times (from your own description) but I seem to be doing a great deal better that you are, despite (I'd bet) starting with much less. I'd ask "if you're so smart how come you're not rich", but you'd only give me a self-fulfilling prophecy in return.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[The Ultimate Fartkno]

"Decades old?"

You're kidding, right?

There hasn't been an original story since about three years after they invented speech. Ug the caveman begat the Greek legends, the Greek legends begot the folktales of yore, the folktales of yore begit Chaucer, Chaucer buggered Shakespeare, and then they made "Gigli."

Excusing movie piracy by claiming the stories are recycled is as weak an argument as condoning music piracy because they keep using those same damned notes over and over again.

"B-flat *again*?! Screw you, Beethoven - you're a HACK!"

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[monkeydo]

Let me expand on it this way. Is it reasonable for me to pay $19.99 for the -exact- same movie that a chinese citizen pays $2.75 for (legal copy- not pirated).

Yes, if you assign a greater value to the movie, it is expected that you should pay more for it. If you don't value it more than your $20, don't buy it. If enough other people have the same values as you, the price will go down.

How is it fair to the poor of america that they are subsidizing the middle-class of other countries?

Anyone who has many $20 DVDs is outside of my definition of "poor".

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[lgw]

Marxism: cool idea, wrong species.

I say "government", you say "contextual framework that allows for success" - I'm not sure we're disagreeing. But if a person becomes rich only by making those he comes in contact with better off as a result of each transaction (as should always be the case for an honest small businessman in a free-ish market), then it's the society that owes that person a debt, not the other way round (discounting infrastructure).

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[scapermoya]

so now hes not such a fool? maybe you should actually read das kapital before making comments like that. the rights and privileges you get for being an american arent paid for by number of flags waved. the government subsidation of everything from agriculture to transportation, military, the judicial system, etc etc etc, are all in place for the welfare of society, which includes certain guarentees. The original draft of the declaration of independence was worded "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of property. The government's place is to provide a framework within which hard work will equal success. Capitalism, for all the good things it has done, has some problems when it comes to the work/success ratio. No man makes money without someone benefiting from those less fortunate, and often harder working. The reason taxes should be progressive is that, per unit, money means less to people as you get richer. A steel worker making 28k a year losing $200 in cash is a lot more affected in real terms than the owner of his mill losing the same amount. Tax brackets are meant to replicate real-world amounts, which a flat tax rate doesn't do. That instrusive government you are fighting is a bit bloated, but people shouldn't be starving in this country.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Final post for me in this thread:

Well, some people choose such accounts - it's still pretty much a free country after all, but each investment choice has it's on risk/reward tradeoffs, and there are lots of choices. As long as you actually understand risk (and how to price things like ARMs and callable bonds, at leats qualitatively) it's not a problem. Did you know that the children of rich Americans bebefit more (statistically speaking) from the knowledge they inherit than from any money they may inherit? Once you know how money works it's easy enough to build wealth, and all you really need to start with is a decent understanding of math.

You missed a common one- a college diploma. But from what I've seen, from practical experience, the return on that is negative.

A rich kid with knowledge of risk and return, plus a loan of more than $5000 (the break even point on any brokerage account, below which you WILL slowly lose money and above which you WILL slowly gain) will do better than the poor kid whose parents scrimped and saved and gave him a $50,000 education. Guaranteed.

I'm sure you have a reason why each of these is a scam? If I thought banks and brokers did so well, I'd just buy stock in banks and brokers.

It isn't so much the investment itself that is the scam- it's the brokerage fees you'll pay to get into and out of each of those investments, plus the fact that Corporate America in general is paid to embezzle (it's basically in every CEO contract if you look hard enough). Put together, unless you can come up with $5000 to invest (not possible for most people in this country) you will lose every dime with the next "business cycle downturn"- the biggest scam of all (there is no real business cycle, it's a fake put together of bad decisions and even worse management).

Well, people define "standard of living" in different ways. If you define standard of living as "one's ability to smoke some weed without being Hassled by The Man" then - actually I have no idea. But if you define it in terms of real purchasing power then the median American's purchasing power has gone up by more than 50% over that time period (hooray for technology). Purchasing power per household has gone up only modestly, but the nuber of people per houseold has gone way down.

I put it as the savings/debt ratio- quality of technology changes, but the real question is, are you able to put something away at the end of the month, or are you just further in debt at the end of the month? I finally wised up- I was further in debt at the end of every month- but then I was unemployed for 26 months and saw even my meager savings disappear into debt service and brokerage house charges.

Speaking of which, the average number of rooms per American in living space has gone from significantly less than one per person to more than one per person. Great news for kids, as sharing a bedroom has become quite rare (new two bedroom houses simply aren't build in my area, as there's just no demand, and 4 bedrooms is the most common arrangement - I never saw a 4 bedroom house growing up!). We seem to be doing better in terms of territory as well.

Only if you don't understand that it's China that actually owns it all- we're just paying more for the service. Interest only mortgages are what is paying for it- no equity at all.

The safety, quality, and performance of a car one can buy for, say, 6 months' pay has gone way up. Air travel was a rare luxury 30 years ago, and it's clear from looking around an airplane that *anyone* can fly these days. The quality of computer you can buy has gone up at an unbelievable rate.

I haven't been able to afford to fly in 6 years now. And quality of computers to me is up time- my up time is WAY down from 1978.

Unless you want to define "standard of living" in some non-economic way, you've really got to reach to find even a single aspect of life that hasn't gotten better. Your pessimism is unj

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[tepples]

If you can't get IT, get a sales job.

The part-time minimum wage openings that rejected me were retail sales jobs.

If there is no work in Fort Wayne then you may need to move to another location.

How will I find the money to move, and how will I be sure that I will be eligible for as much vocational rehabilitation assistance in another state as I am in Indiana? I don't want to "shift the odds against" myself by moving.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Grishnakh]

Done all that. Know all that. Had no help from anyone (not even grants). Mother didn't finish high-school, had no dad. Not particularly smart (just not actively dumb or self-destructive).
---
  I was dirt poor for at least 7 years. Part of that I was dirt poor AND supporting a wife and child.
---
  You can ALWAYS make excuses why you can't succeed but the fact is people until very recently (last 40-50 years) had it much harder than us and they survived and got by.

Yes, but 50-100 years ago, most people didn't go to college either, and worked on farms or in nasty factories. Do we want to go back to that?

Now, what's happening is people are going to college, and still having to struggle. You talk about living a less expensive lifestyle, commuting to work in the rain on a bicycle or moped, etc. Ok, sounds great, so why bother with the expensive college education to have such a low standard of living? Why not just get a job working as a tradesman? They enjoy a standard of living at least as high as this, and they didn't have to waste any time or money in college. Plus, if they do well, they can eventually move off on their own and start their own little company, doing roofing or tile or drywall or whatever, and those guys make six-digit salaries.

You can go on and on about how people are responsible for their own choices and such, but society also has a responsibility to set things up such that there is long-term viability, and that people are rewarded for taking a more difficult path. Society will not advance with everyone just working as cashiers and waiters and tradespeople, and no one doing the new and innovative stuff like engineering. And if there is no incentive to go these harder routes, people simply won't do it. In the end, our society will either decline or collapse as other, superior societies, which properly reward people for taking the risk and investing in education, move far ahead of our own.

Education isn't very common in places like Africa, Mexico, etc. Notice how the standard of living is there. That's what the US will be like in the future if we don't change it.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

I've got a 6 year bachelor's degree in software engineering. But as for the defense industry- China and India have that sewn up, at a quarter the cost of doing it here.

The real growth, as far as jobs are concerned, are in the service industries- exactly where my talents don't lie. I piss too many people off, and I have that college degree that shows up on my credit report that prevents me from working at McDonald's (I've tried).

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Even so, I paid over $30 CAD for the DVD of Primer when I could find it (for comparison, most DVDs cost $20-25 CAD when they're released, and usually drop by $5 after six months). The moral of the story is that people are willing to pay for quality;

But unlike most movies, you have to watch 10 times before it makes sense, so that's really $3/watch versus $20-$25/watch for more expensive movies.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Mr. Underbridge]

I've got a 6 year bachelor's degree in software engineering. But as for the defense industry- China and India have that sewn up, at a quarter the cost of doing it here.

Hate to call you there, but that's absolutely wrong. The defense industry job situation here is booming, because the important work *can't* be outsourced overseas due to security issues. For the work I do, you have to be an American citizen. That's job security - good luck outsourcing that to Bangalore. In the end, the high-level work is not leaving this country at any appreciable pace. You need to get into a business where you actually meet with customers, that won't go overseas.

Right now, my company cannot hire people quickly enough. Especially PhDs/engineers, and especially people with security clearances.

You might consider a MS from a state school - don't know what tuition is in OR, but where I went, tuition was something sick like $3000/yr.

Alternatively, if you have the skill bill yourslif as an algorithm expert and get into more analyst work as opposed to development. The markit is admittedly thin for experienced people, BS only, who don't claim anything other than coding experience.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[wheelbarrow]

Ah ha! I see that you agree that producing a film is a risky and expensive proposition. Perhaps that is why movie ticket prices are so high. I think the movie production and distribution system is working fine in the free market.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Txiasaeia]

At the risk of getting off topic, why did there need to be a point to the technology? It seems to me like you're thinking of it in typical Hollywood terms, where a film needs to have a distinct beginning, middle, and end, and there needs to be a distinct conflict that gets resolved by the end. Primer had neither, but was more about the relationship between the two main characters. I find that too many films and books take a look at something like this from the perspective that there's this Powerful Evil Guy that will destroy the entire universe if Generic Good Guy doesn't stop him. I can't think of any time travel plots that don't involve this. By contrast, Primer was more about human motivation than solving the Big Problem.

You say that causality wasn't thought out that well, but I say that it took a completely different perspective on causality which was refreshing. It moved away from the (again) typical Hollywood plot; I'm no physicist or engineer, but I genuinely liked the film.

Having said that, can you recommend some good modern SF novels that deal with time travel (perhaps something not as didactic as The Time Machine)? It's a genre I'm interested in, but I've not yet had the motivation to compile a "best of" list. I'd appreciate it!

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Risk vs return, like normal- it wouldn't be 1/100th as risky if they'd use modern technology and lower their prices.

But all of that is really beside the point- they want to reduce piracy, and the way to reduce piracy is to reduce cost to the consumer. Every time. I understand that's against the so-called "free market" (which I call the rape-the-consumer market, since there ain't nothing free about it)- but that is unfortuneately the case.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Hate to call you there, but that's absolutely wrong. The defense industry job situation here is booming, because the important work *can't* be outsourced overseas due to security issues.

I'd rather you be right on this- but from the way the War on Terror and the War on Drugs is going, I see no evidence that the federal government is actually interested in security issues anymore.

For the work I do, you have to be an American citizen. That's job security - good luck outsourcing that to Bangalore. In the end, the high-level work is not leaving this country at any appreciable pace. You need to get into a business where you actually meet with customers, that won't go overseas.

Unfortuneately for me, that's exactly where my weakness lies. I can't talk to customers- because I have this horrible tendency to tell the truth.

Right now, my company cannot hire people quickly enough. Especially PhDs/engineers, and especially people with security clearances.

I'd have a problem with the security clearance as well- my grandmother was Candadian.

You might consider a MS from a state school - don't know what tuition is in OR, but where I went, tuition was something sick like $3000/yr.

It's now up to $10,000/yr- my current credit rating won't handle it.

Alternatively, if you have the skill bill yourslif as an algorithm expert and get into more analyst work as opposed to development. The markit is admittedly thin for experienced people, BS only, who don't claim anything other than coding experience.

I'm working on that- been enhancing my resume in that area- that's one thing State Work is good for.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Mr. Underbridge]

I'd rather you be right on this- but from the way the War on Terror and the War on Drugs is going, I see no evidence that the federal government is actually interested in security issues anymore.

By security I mean national security, so a decent part of it is "War on Terror" stuff, but there's a lot more than that, and is certainly worthwhile to pursue in my opinion. Although now that I think of it, there's a lot of nat. security work in the area of computer security as well.

I'd have a problem with the security clearance as well- my grandmother was Candadian.

That wouldn't pose a problem unless she was a Communist. If your parents were Chinese nationals, now...

It's now up to $10,000/yr- my current credit rating won't handle it.

For a state school! Gah!

I'm working on that- been enhancing my resume in that area- that's one thing State Work is good for.

Heh. There you go! I guarantee if you're willing to give it a shot, there is decent work out there. It just takes some creativity and shifting, if not changing, fields. Although while you're contracting, that could give you a chance to work on a diversity of smaller projects for resume fodder - so I'd look for the most whacked out jobs I could find. ;)

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Maxo-Texas]

As I said, you might do everything and just be screwed- there are no guarantees. I didn't engage in any risky behaviors and still got cancer. I'll probably die 6-8 years early as a result of the chemo.
--
As for the rest- We can't be sure of anything. You and I can't be sure that either of us won't die tomorrow killed by some one else or a freak accident or a heart attack.
--
If illegal immigrants can make a hundred bucks a day doing yard work, construction, hard but unskilled labor then you can to. If you can do that you can earn enough in a few days to get a bus ticket out of there. You can use the public library to find a place that has more jobs available.
--
Again- if there is no work where you are then you must move- there is no other valid conclusion.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Maxo-Texas]

Yea- I have friends who went that route that make better incomes than I do. In retrospect, college was not the best path to take for money.
---
But I didn't take that path for money. There is no way I could have stuck it out just for money.
---
As for the rest- as I said- you can always make excuses. There is no justification for earning a high rate of pay when all you need is an education to do it. Hence our careers are going to suffer while the rest of the world's wages even out with ours. We have no god-given right to make high wages.
---
The societies that will advance are those who focus so hard on advancing that thousands of their children commit suicide each year when they fail a test or a class. They are hungrier than we are. We are not willing to put ourselves or our children through that.
---
Nothing we do can prevent them from gaining ground- protecting our citizens from the consequences of our actions will only make any fall harder and more vicious. Do we offshore 7000 jobs? Or lose a company of 70,000 people out of business to a foreign competitor with 70,000 hungry people happy to work for a fraction of the pay. Their societies may be superior- or they may be another Japan- looking fierce but ultimately collapsing. Don't sell us short yet.
---
But our laws have a cost. Our bridges to nowhere have a cost.
---
The problem in Africa and Mexico is not education. They had education and a chance at being decent societies 50 years ago- especially Mexico. Those societies fell to corruption. Corruption helps individuals but does massive damage to the society. If you want an american example- look at Louisiana.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Maxo-Texas]

Ah the wonders of selective editing. Let me try to pare it down for you.
Why should a poor american, living on 650 a month social security, have to pay $50 dollars out of their pocket for medicine they need to stay alive when the middle class of another country pays $10 out of their pocket. The medicine is made by the same company in the same factory. It is identical
Neither person is subsidized by any form of insurance or national health care. Is that moral? Is it right that they can pass laws making it illegal to buy the drugs for $10 and ship it back and sell it for $10 plus shipping in the states?
Same thing applies to the other products. We are not talking capitalism. In a capitalist society, everyone would share the low costs because you couldn't pass laws making it illegal to arbitrage these products.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[shmlco]

It may be a cliche to say that today's audiences are more sophisticated... but they are. Go see Sound of Thunder, and watch how many times those non-realistic effects pop you out of your suspension of disbelief. They don't look "real", and in doing so, attract unwanted attention. I suppose they could have avoided them, but it's a bit difficult to have a story about dinosaur hunting and not show a dinosaur...

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[bitingduck]

. You talk about living a less expensive lifestyle, commuting to work in the rain on a bicycle or moped, etc. Ok, sounds great, so why bother with the expensive college education to have such a low standard of living? Why not just get a job working as a tradesman?

Sometimes it lets you increase your standard of living in other areas, or some people may not even see it as a low standard of living. I have an advanced degree and get paid pretty well, even for the expensive area where I live. I bike to work in the heat, rain, thunderstorms, at night, etc. I prefer it over driving (I own a fine car). I'd much rather be outside moving than sitting in the car.

It's as much a question of attitude as anything else, but it also leaves me with more disposable income than my peers (I also don't have to pay for things like health clubs-- it seems silly to exercise indoors in Southern CA unless the smog is really bad, which it usually isn't anymore, especially morning or evening.) As a grad student I shared an apartment (mostly with pleasant people) and was carless, and as a result could spend a lot more money making myself comfortable in other ways (e.g. good food).

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[sisinka]

I suspect you that you yourself were willing to become a member of the enslaving elite. People are subconsciously trying to get as much as they CAN, not as much as they NEED. Who would behave modestly, would look like a loser/fool/trash. The problem is not Bush, not Capitalism. The problem is you. Me. Us. Us all. Gotta change our civilisation's philosophical background soon, or we eat up ourselves and our mother Earth.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[StikyPad]

where if they'd go for volume pricing instead, and roll prices back a few years, they'd have NO problem with piracy at all.

It depends what type of piracy you're talking about. $2 bootlegs might become a thing of the past, but people who distribute their copies online don't generally profit financially. There will always be piracy, and the price will always be set to compensate. Just like insurance fraud, employee shoplifting (the most costly kind), and any other theft or "copyright infringement," or whatever you want to call it, that exists. There will always be an arms race between pirates and content producers.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Threni]

> UK South, £5-6. (US$9-11)

UK London - £6-£12. Pretty expensive in Central London.

> Happy enough with that price, but never buy food / drinks there, mostly due to
> disgusting quality of the food and drinks. Also would be more inclined to go if
> the Odeon gave up trying to make us sit in allocated seats.

I hardly ever go - only when forced. First, I don't really like films - or rather, I can imagine enjoying films in a parallel universe where people made films worth watching, but that doesn't appear to be the case here, or at least, it happens fair too rarely. Also, I seem to remember going to the cinema when I was little and there was always someone there with a torch making sure people sat in the correct seat and didn't spoil the film for other people, but this has not been the case in any cinema I've been to in the last 15 years, and so *every* single cinema I've been to (with the exception of a small one which was showing a bunch of Ren and Stimpy (and related) animations) has had the performance augmented by peasants making and receiving phone calls, talking, throwing things etc. This is in addition to the stuff that happened even with the ushers, such as people eating really noisy/smelly food, crying/annoying children etc. And I get to pay £6-£12 for this?

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[wheelbarrow]

Wow! Are you saying that you've found a way to eliminate 99% of the financial risk of feature film production? That's a license to print money! Congratulations, I'll be looking for you on the red carpet.

By the way, we're talking about a voluntary choice to watch a movie and you are throwing around analogies like 'rape'. That degree of hyperbole reveals the underlying weakness of your argument's foundations.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[GreyPoopon]

Should read "The Two-Income Trap" by Elizabeth Warren.

From your description, it sounds interesting. If I can find the extra time, I'll try to take a look at it. I think I'll probably be in agreement. In the case of my family, I chose to live in an area that doesn't have a "preferential" school district because I'm paying the extra to send the kids to a private school anyway. Pretty much all of the public schools in Pennsylvania are useless in my book. One of my friends from work has her kid in what is supposed to be the best public school in the area, and she's completely disgusted with the school. I sat there and listened to her list all of her complaints, and it sounded almost like the list of reasons I used to justify private school for my kids.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[lgw]

Put together, unless you can come up with $5000 to invest (not possible for most people in this country) you will lose every dime with the next "business cycle downturn"

Ahhh, now I see what you mean. For less than 5000 I'd agree, as the cost of trading doesn't scale down far enough yet (there are some no-fee investment approaches, but you're stuck with the companies you choose). But I'd argue that anyone not crippled by consumer debt can save that much: it's a simple matter of priorities. I knew a minimum-wage security guard who was saving ~750/month - he did work a *lot* of hours, but he worked so he could save so he could eventually escape, and it worked out well for him.

It's a cultural thing I guess. Teach your kids how money works and they can certainly become wealthy, over time, even if others choose not to do so. The American dream is alive and well; just learn to avoid the minefield. This statement actually adresses most of the rest of the discussion (credit card debt, intrest-only ARMS, saying "I bought the house" but meaning "I took on a huge amount of debt tied to the house" etc., etc.), so I'll leave it at that.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[lgw]

I read Marx in high school, and was simply unimpressed. He missed the single biggest factor in economics: the economic (mostly tecnological) progress of the society as a whole dwarfs the distribution of wealth within the society in determining standard of living. Deciding what projects get capital and what don't is the most critical skill in determining (mostly technological) progress, and "workers controlling the means of production" is perhaps the worst solution to that problem. If there were no (mostly technological) progress, Marx might have started to make sense, though he also fails to harness the competitive spirit. Sadly, he overlooked both the most important factor in economics *and* the most important factor in the psychology of the biggest contributers (the latter is well understood, the former generally overlooked).

That part of the DoI was cribbed directly from Locke, who really should get more credit than he does for political philosophy. Swapping Locke's "property" for "pursuit of happiness" was more about aserting that the Revolution wasn't economically motivited than any broader statement of principle.

No man makes money without someone benefiting from those less fortunate, and often harder working.

And that's simply a load of crap, assuming you mean it in a negative way. In any trade freely entered, *both* sides benefit from each other, and value is created! Economics is not a zero-sum game!

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Bent Mind]

Back when I was growing up, a Saturday matinee cost $0.25. That said, I still enjoy going to the movies. If the studios want to make more money, why don't they keep showing movies in the theater? As it is, most movies I'll have to see at home on the TV because I didn't have the chance to see them when they were in the theater.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[cybpunks3]

What kind of comparison is that?

You can live without cable and gym memberships. You need a place to live, though.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[robertjw]

... it's a bit difficult to have a story about dinosaur hunting and not show a dinosaur...

Much of the effects requirements are directly related to the subject matter. That's why it took Peter Jackson and some huge technological advances in CGI to make LOTR. Many other movies, as the GP stated, can be made without all the special effects. For example, Robert Rodriguez' first movie, El Mariachi. If you haven't seen it, watch it. It was made on a ridiculously low budget with one camera and every scene was made in one take.

To say current audiences are more sophisticated is not really accurate. Much (not all) of the acting, directing and writing in many of the old movies is better than the average drivel that comes out of hollywood now. We are used to more realistic special effects than the movie goers of bygone eras were, thus fueling the need for CGI and fancy effects.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[robertjw]

Thought we were discussing movie admissions, which isn't exactly a necessity of life. Thought cable and gym memberships were a better comparison than housing.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Wow! Are you saying that you've found a way to eliminate 99% of the financial risk of feature film production? That's a license to print money! Congratulations, I'll be looking for you on the red carpet.

Not me- independenant filmmakers have. Not every blockbuster hit costs millions to make- quite a few live action films cost only tens of thousands. Blair Witch Project? $30,000. Read the rest of the discussion- many people have introduced me to a new sci-fi film that only cost $10,000 to produce. The average Star Trek New Voyages episode costs less than $100,000; even with all of the special effects.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

I was- and that was a part of my error. You see, the ruling elite has a special class for people like me- we're told that we will have continual increases in pay, so it's worthwhile to borrow now for the things we want and need, we can always pay it back later. That's a lie- in reality, the more experience you have, the less your work is worth, and the harder it is to find a job. So the pay ladder becomes a pay slide instead.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Ahhh, now I see what you mean. For less than 5000 I'd agree, as the cost of trading doesn't scale down far enough yet (there are some no-fee investment approaches, but you're stuck with the companies you choose). But I'd argue that anyone not crippled by consumer debt can save that much: it's a simple matter of priorities. I knew a minimum-wage security guard who was saving ~750/month - he did work a *lot* of hours, but he worked so he could save so he could eventually escape, and it worked out well for him.

Not crippled by consumer debt is one of those keys- I bought into the lie that more experience means more money. Work hard and you'll get ahead is what they taught us- it's a lie. You can't borrow against it- and if you try you'll end up with far more consumer debt than you'll ever be able to handle.

It's a cultural thing I guess. Teach your kids how money works and they can certainly become wealthy, over time, even if others choose not to do so. The American dream is alive and well; just learn to avoid the minefield.

If the American Dream was alive and well, the minefield wouldn't be allowed to exist- the minefield exists because we allow business people to have only one ethic: profit.

This statement actually adresses most of the rest of the discussion (credit card debt, intrest-only ARMS, saying "I bought the house" but meaning "I took on a huge amount of debt tied to the house" etc., etc.), so I'll leave it at that.

You're completely right- but the other choices are equally bad. You start out -$200,000 in debt and you'll be exactly where I am; with exactly the same attitudes.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[scapermoya]

i think you need to look more at the context in which marx wrote his works. i'll get prejudiced against because of this, but I am still in high school. I read Locke and Marx and Rousseau and Hobbs for various history classes, and I was taught to appreciate their contributions. His ideas do not translate literally into our current society, but the basic ideas of appreciating the contribution of the workers still stands. My point about nobody benefiting without the work of someone in the lower classes contributing is that regardless of at what level the freely entered transaction occurs at, the GOOD being traded has either directly or indirectly been produced by someone lower than you. Even extremely intricate devices that require extensive knowledge and eductation to create are made of materials mined by someone at a lower economic level. I didnt say that economics is a zero sum game, but it is easily described as a circular game. Every man, woman, and child plays a part, and no one part is less integral than any other.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[wheelbarrow]

If you made a $30,000 film today, what do you think is the likelyhood that you could recover that $30,000 from your audience?

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Depends on the script. :-) That's the real key, is learning not to make crap. Actually, though, most $30,000 films make back their initial investment these days- if nothing else then in DVD & download sales. One of my examples is actually an extension of a very popular TV show- and they've made enough that they're working on thier third episode, with some big name actors from the original TV show wanting to be involved. I suggest you go to http://www.newvoyages.com/ and do a little research before sticking your foot into your mouth again.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

2nd answer- here's the real "secret" to cheap filmmaking. In any given movie, most of the footage you shoot is going to end up on the cutting room floor anyway. That's footage that could be shot with a camera on a tripod (no need to pay the camera guy) and recorded to digital media- making the editing as easy as erasing. Where the talent lies is in the ability to edit- give me somebody who's able to edit and *also* a relatively good script, and the special effects become a software cake walk.

My only real question in all of this is why the people on Cable Access channels never found the ability to use a automatic volume control device.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Grishnakh]

I like to bike as well when the weather is nice. But in the previous message you were pitching this as an alternative for people whose driving habits were causing them financial strain, even though they had advanced educations and should have had careers that afforded them this level of luxury should they wish to pay for it.

I'd love to have a nice car in the garage for use on weekends and just bike to work because I want to, not because I need to for financial reasons. So my main point is that this appeal to "doing with less" is really cold comfort to people who should be earning more than they do, and if our society valued education they would. While this advice may be ok for those already stuck in these positions, I think it's important that we do all we can to educate the younger generation about the true state of things in this country, and persuade them to avoid all technical careers before they make the mistake we did.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[bitingduck]

A technical career was most certainly *not* a mistake for me. I'm doing fine, and most of the people I know with PhDs in physics are doing alright, too. Financially it's been pretty useful, and also as far as independence at work. The only real downside of the PhD is that it decreases mobility -- you can move around but it takes a lot longer, especially if you want something entertaining, but there are plenty of high paying jobs that are more engineering oriented.

I decided to bike to work years ago, rather than drive, because it seemed exhorbitantly expensive compared to the benefit. It turned out to leave me with plenty of disposable income, so I had pretty good savings when I started grad school. I was getting the same money as the other grad students, but managed to have a more comfortable lifestyle by sharing an apartment and not owning a car. Neither was a hardship-- it was more cost effective to rent a car once a month or so if I wanted to go on a long trip. I don't think I mentioned that this was in a place with fairly hostile weather, where it wasn't unusual to ride home in temperatures below minus 20 F. Put on a couple layers of clothes and it's actually warmer than getting in the car and waiting for it to warm up. There were also way too many times to count that I stopped on my bike to push other peoples' cars out of deep snow. The bike you can just lift and carry for a few feet.

I also never felt like it was any sort of hardship, no matter what the weather, then or now. Like I said earlier, it's a matter of attitude. If you think sitting in your car in traffic is stylin', then by all means, waste your time and money on it. Life is all about trades and decisions, including financial ones. Plenty of people with high incomes manage to still not afford their lifestyles because they imagine they should have more than they can afford, and I know plenty of people with low incomes who live within their means (by making various trades) and are quite comfortable.

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[Leiterfluid]

I was in no way attempting to defend movie (or music piracy). I was rather reacting to the statement that defended outrageous box office ticket prices. The whole point of my smarmy comment was simply that if the studios keep rolling out the same crap over and over, why should I have to pay increasingly higher ticket prices for the experience of seeing the movie with dozens of other suckers who paid too much for the movie and likely their snacks. Especially considering the rude generation of kids that feel its appropriate to take or make calls on their cell phones, or explain all the plot points to the person sitting next to them, who happens to be watching the same movie as the rest of us, or better yet, the screaming kids at an R-rated film because the parents could not have found a babysitter.

No sir (or madam), I prefer my movies in the comfort of my media room, where for about $20, my wife and I can watch the movie as many times as we want, and help ourselves to our own snacks and goodies, and don't have to worry about paying for "the theatre experience."

Cinema is dead. Long live home theatre!

Re:Here's a good tool to fight piracy

[wrecked]

Thanks for the recommendation. I'll look it up.

Oh, isn't that just so cute

[Conspiracy_Of_Doves]

They actually think they can stop piracy

Re:Oh, isn't that just so cute

[raitchison]

They actually think they can stop piracy

I'm sure they are under no delusions that they can even make a dent in Piracy. Any technology that would represent even a speed bump for pirates would make the "product" unusable for the average consumer.

All that the implemented "anti-piracy" technologies do, indeed all they are intended to do is make it harder for people to exercise their fair use rights.

Re:Oh, isn't that just so cute

[shut_up_man]

Professor Ed Felten wrote about this in his blog, Freedom to Tinker. It's a good analysis, comparing the RIAA's little venture to Perpetual Motion Labs.

Re:Oh, isn't that just so cute

[gl4ss]

what they're really intended to do is to extract money from mpaa whilst doing nothing to solve the problem.

there's no way to prevent transferring video over the internet anymore so basically they're screwed in that regard now.

30 cent solution to their best efforts?

[bucktug]

Can't wait to see what they got. Then see which clever monkey among us breaks it for $0.30 ...

Re:30 cent solution to their best efforts?

[kfg]

All of us.

KFG

Millions for defense...

[Quinn_Inuit]

...and not one penny for good movies!

Re:Millions for defense...

[Joe the Lesser]

Would this be the 'luxury' bar in civ II? I always left it at 0% too, being obsessed with getting tanks first :(

Re:Millions for defense...

[Tatarize]

They are the same thing. Look, if they paid money for good movies that would just increase the demand to pirate them. By creating a crap-factory they can be sure that a large subsections in the geek community don't pirate anything.

just plain wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

US$30m
Another $30m bypassed pressing Shift.

Re:just plain wrong

[EraserMouseMan]

Yea, and then they spend another 2 million on suing the guy for circumventing their $30 million DRM protection scheme.
AND
They'll have to spend this much each year to keep up with the hackers. But at least it's nice to know that Hollywood is fighting for ethics and the little guy. And so I'm sure this useless expenditure will not be passed on to the little guy but will be footed by the pocket change from a couple movie stars and movie studios.

Better way to spend $30M

[slaker]

Why don't they take that $30M and make a movie people might want to pay money to go see?

Re:Better way to spend $30M

['nother poster]

Because $30M wouldn't even cover the SFX costs of a real blockbuster movie. Everyone knows that the more it costs, the better the movie is. If it's not over $100m in production, it is a dog. Sheesh.

Re:Better way to spend $30M

[xero9]

My thoughts exactly! Most of the movies out there I won't even bother to download simply because they aren't even worth the time getting. So if it's not worthwhile for me to get for free, then why would I pay for it.

Re:Better way to spend $30M

[Ironsides]

Why don't they take that $30M and make a movie people might want to pay money to go see?

Because that would mean that they would have to admit that the main reason for the drop in movie attendance is their shitty movies instead of piracy?
That they would actualy have to admit to their shareholders that they have run out of ideas and can't make a decent product (aka movie) anymore without rehashing old movies/remakes/sequels?

Other stuff in here as well, just can't phrase it properly. But maybe this will help (some). Several years ago I came up with a rule of thumb. Sequals are never as good as the original movie and are usually just rehashes of them. (LotR 2 does not quallify as a sequal, Ninja Turtles 2 does.) The only time I have come across one that breaks this was "White Fang 2".

Re:Better way to spend $30M

[AsylumWraith]

The only time I have come across one that breaks this was "White Fang 2".

Don't forget "Godfather Pt. II" Arguably better than the original, but definitely just as good.

Make decent product

[yroJJory]

I thought the best "technology" was to make a decent product. Then people would likely feel more inclined to actually pay for it, rather than waste their $$$ on a turd.

Re:Make decent product

[goldspider]

But it's still A-OK to waste bandwidth on a turd.

Re:Make decent product

[Microlith]

Oh they do make decent products.

The decent products get pirated anyway, along with the junk.

The piracy is indiscriminate, which makes most arguments about quality moot since warezers will trade ANYTHING.

And people will enjoy anything, so long as they get it free. If people didn't trade shit online, and simply made sure that bad movies -bombed-, then maybe they'd have no case.

Re:Make decent product

[dlefavor]

Then people would likely feel more inclined to actually pay for it, rather than waste their $$$ on a turd.

Why on earth would anybody want to steal a turd?

Re:Make decent product

[MikeFM]

By decent I think no DRM is also required. I refuse to buy movies with DRM that hasn't been cracked. It's my right to make backups and media shift if I want to. I don't pay to be told what I can't do.

Re:Make decent product

[yroJJory]

The idea is that they wouldn't want to steal a turd. But they wouldn't want to buy a movie and find out later that it IS a turd. So, D/Ling movies ensures they don't waste money on turds and allows spending dollars to be saved for good purchases.

(Incidentally, I'm definitely not defending movie pirates. I have never D/Led a copyrighted movie from the web (unless its owners were allowing that sort of distribution.)

Re:Make decent product

[lasindi]

I thought the best "technology" was to make a decent product. Then people would likely feel more inclined to actually pay for it, rather than waste their $$$ on a turd.

Why would you pirate a "turd?" If no one enjoyed the music or movies they were pirating, they wouldn't be pirating it. If people can get away with getting something for free, through either legal or illegal means, they will do it depending on how easy it is. It's harder to get away with, say, shoplifting because it's more difficult to get away with. The reason that piracy is so common is that it's so easy. This new technology is designed to make it harder, and thus reduce it.

Re:Make decent product

[Bent Mind]

I thought the best "technology" was to make a decent product.

While technology makes really cool things easy to do, I have yet to see any technology produce a good story.

Ultimate Solution

[Arandir]

Just outlaw motion pictures! When there are no motion pictures to pirate, no one will be able to pirate motion pictures.

Cheap porn

[turgid]

If they mass-produced lots and lots of porm at, say, $1 per DVD the market would be enormous and it wouldn't be worth anyone's trouble trying to copy it illegally.

Re:Cheap porn

[arkanes]

It's kinda funny. Porn is some of the most-pirated content around, both the full blown commercial infringment (like sites stealing content from one another) and casual consumer piracy. It's also far, far, far more profitable than the regular movie industry, theres a thriving cottage industry of amateurs and an equally thriving industry providing tools (hosting, web applications, cam/phone brokering) to those amateurs. It's actually a very healthy, vibrant economy. The traditional movie houses could do worse than to watch what pornographers do more.

Re:Cheap porn

[deaddrunk]

Providing tools? I thought that was the job of the male actors.

Re:Cheap porn

[pavon]

The traditional movie houses could do worse than to watch what pornographers do more.

What, grind out low-budget films one after an other, with low paid actors (relative to hollywood) and no plot to speak of?

Because that is what makes porn profitable. The fact that they don't clamp down so much on piracy has very little to do with it at all.

Re:Cheap porn

[meringuoid]

The traditional movie houses could do worse than to watch what pornographers do more.

I'm sorry. It's puerile, I'll grant you, and the sort of humour that most of us should give up on at about the age of fourteen, but... that sentence cracked me up like nothing else.

Re:Cheap porn

[Usaflt2003]

You have actually hit on one of the open secrets of technology, porn is A. an early adopter and B. a driving force behind large amounts of technology and marketing strategems. I often baffle my friends when I tell them that, besides the obvious reasons, when I go to a gentlemans club or adult boutique (yes yes I am a dirty old man, I admit it) its to see what new tech there is or get ideas for various marketing plans I am involved in. For the doubters I invite them along on my next trip and point out certain things then tell them to watch for it over the next 6 to 12 months. They are amazed when those ideas filter to the mainstream.

If Hollywood would adopt some of the business model of the porn industry they would see a marked improvement in profits. And its not like the quality of acting or writing is all that high above porn anyway...

Re:Cheap porn

[Maxo-Texas]

For most of the 30's and 40's Hollywood ground out tons of films. The actors made good enough livings to live well and party frequently but nothing like today. Same thing for directors, actors, etc. etc. An actor might be in 7 movies a year.

Movies were cheap- a buck or two by today's standards. As a result (and because there was no TV)- people saw them regularly.

Today the people who make movies are all compensated at ridiculous levels- we make 160 million dollar movies which would be $30 million dollar movies if not for these salaries. On top of that they make us sit through 20 minutes of commercials if we want a good seat for a new movie.

Increasingly- you can turn out a quality film for under a million dollars. No film to buy, computers are cheaper, a glut of people in many countries that want to be actors who -can- act, writers who can write, and who are willing to do it for living wages- not 20 million a picture.

The end is coming for hollywood- they just don't realize it yet.

Re:Cheap porn

[Mr2001]

For the doubters I invite them along on my next trip and point out certain things then tell them to watch for it over the next 6 to 12 months. They are amazed when those ideas filter to the mainstream.

For example...?

Re:Cheap porn

[jjr1]

So you believe that most of the problem would be gone if the studio system back then had continued? Actors working for one studio and tied to them by contract is an awfully unfair way of having people do business. Would you like it if you had a long term contract with an employer where they paid you a fraction of your true market value? People are not paid based on the quality of their work. They are paid based on how badly they are needed to do that job. I'll always agree with the person who actually does the work rather than the suits who unfairly determine how much someone should be paid.

Re:Cheap porn

[Maxo-Texas]

That's not what I said. What I said was that -today- everyone is grossly overpaid for the entertainment value they deliver compared to the past.
---
It's possible studio entertainment today would be grossly overpriced even if actors had never broken the studio system.
---
Your statement about "true market value" cuts to the point. I assert that the "true market value" for stars, writers, etc. is going to drop because the price they are charging has ruined the entertainment experience they are delivering. AND- the distribution lock (via Theatres and DVD's) is crumbling and being bypassed. As a result, the artificial monopoly they had on producing entertainment is about to be broken and hundreds-- even thousands-- of talented people shut out by the previous system are going to be producing entertainment less expensively (Re Starwreck, Star Trek new voyages, Starwars fan films, etc. etc.).

Let's place our bets now...

[Gothic_Walrus]

Once the new protection is released, how many days will it be before it's cracked? :)

Copy protection can and will be broken, unless the studios do things like weld the discs to the inside of the DVD players.

Re:Let's place our bets now...

[turgid]

Once the new protection is released, how many days will it be before it's cracked? :)

How long before the authorities start getting serious and sending in the jack boots to sort out the pirates?

They'll just keep tightening the screws.

Re:Let's place our bets now...

[Lord Kano]

I understand the point you were trying to make, but even that wouldn't work. People would still rip and burn discs that they couldn't physically access.

LK

No more fair use

[Nonillion]

This just means you can kiss all your "fair use" rights goodbye. No mater what they try, it will certainly hobble my fair use rights to make copies of my disks so the kids cannot ruin the originals....

Re:No more fair use

[moexu]

They're doing a pretty good job of interfering with fair use now. Part of the reason that I buy stuff on DVDs is that I want to watch the content and not all the crap surrounding the content (commercials, previews, etc). I've gotten DVDs with introductions or previews that can't be skipped and even one movie that disables fast forward. WTF is that about? Why don't I get to decide which parts of the disc I want to see and which I don't? I bought the thing after all.

Re:No more fair use

[phalse phace]

It's because you don't own the product. You are merely paying for the license and the priviledge of watching it. And that license is under their terms only. Well, that's what the **AA will tell you anyways.

Re:No more fair use

[CaseM]

To follow up with your thought, if follows that they should be sending me a new CD/DVD if/when mine breaks then, right? Of course not...

Re:No more fair use

[Pedrito]

This just means you can kiss all your "fair use" rights goodbye. No mater what they try, it will certainly hobble my fair use rights to make copies of my disks so the kids cannot ruin the originals....

You mean like, kinda how DVD encryption hobbled our fair rights? Yeah, whatever. They might hobble our fair rights for a time, but nothing like that will last. There's always someone out there who's smarter than whoever they hire.

Re:No more fair use

[nurb432]

Once the releases became digital, and the DMCA was enacted, we kissed them goodbye.

They already have the solution

[stox]

Judging from this summer's releases, the studio's have obviously found the perfect solution, only release material nobody would want to copy. So far, it appears to be working. No wonder cinema and DVD sales have fallen off so much.

Re:They already have the solution

[Bobke]

Exactly,

and what also must not be taken lightly, is the fact that there has been a massive jump in the amount of people gaming these days. WoW is just an example of that.

How about...

[suyashs]

not making the content to begin with?

Sure-fire Anti-Piracy Method

[nycroft]

Lower the cost of the theatre tickets and lower the cost of DVDs!

Re:Sure-fire Anti-Piracy Method

[E8086]

Higher sales at lower prices or lower sales at higher prices, seems they chose the latter.

I'm sure some economics or math person can write a simple equation showing that they can more than double the ticket sales if they drop the price 30%. I've talked to a couple merchants at computer shows, they drop their prices a lot and triple their sales. Not bad, higher profit and more inventory turnover.

All the while...

[DerekJ212]

All the while, DVD Jon sits in his laboratory funded only with chips and soda. Score: DVD Jon: 2 MPAA: 0

Re:All the while...

[Wilson_6500]

There's one thing that the individuals/groups who break copy protection are funded with in abundance, something that the entire music industry can never have, and that they can never beat...

Love.

(No, I'm not a Hollywood writer, I'm serious. Love for what they do, not for the Female Lead. Time and time again, we see how love outmatches the almighty dollar. Screw movies! Real life can teach us everything we need to know, like how fire hurts.)

Some In-House Cleaning

[thebdj]

Seriously, how many pirated copies of TOP movies actually make their way into the world via cameras? I mean, most the cam caps I have seen are horrible, poor audio and poor video, nothing I want to watch, especially on an HDTV. The GOOD copies come from screener versions of the movies. Heck some even have the, if you are watching this call...

Also with new digital equipment at theaters I am starting to wonder if some people working these booths haven't found some new way to offload the movies and possibly make copies that way. It just seems that there are too many HIGH quality rips coming out to possibly be the result of geeks with cameras.

Finally, while ticket prices are arguably high, I do not believe the real problem is ticket prices so much as nothing people are wanting to see. Actually I am more annoyed with the theater to dvd turn around time. I would honestly prefer this get as short as 3 months even on GOOD movies. Once again the digital formats available make this transition a lot more feasible, and most the extras are filmed during production or shortly post-prod anyway. So the three months release time should be enough to clean them up and release great DVDs....

If only the intelligent and tech-saavy people were running these industries nowadays and not the old fossils who developed the industry into what it is...

Re:Some In-House Cleaning

[Ronald Dumsfeld]

If only the intelligent and tech-saavy people were running these industries nowadays and not the old fossils who developed the industry into what it is...

Were the industry being run by intelligent and tech-savvy people, they likely wouldn't have the capital until they gave the proverbial pound of flesh to those you refer to as "old fossils".

Whenever anything innovative and with growth potential comes along then monied interests move in and you get last decade's basic assumptions applied to new technology. Video and DVD are classic examples of this with the inclusion of advertising. You watch it on a TV, right? So the media companies can advertise too. Heck, with a little fiddling with the hardware they can force you to watch the adverts and "don't pirate our stuff" messages.

I remember the early computer games industry. It was sucked into the same nonsense. Games came with copy protection and enterprising hardware hackers developed plug-in boards that dumped out the memory and register state. The same will happen with whatever ideas we get foisted on us by the crackpots these folks employ. There will be a demand to make copies and someone, somewhere, will find a way and post it on the Internet.

Re:Some In-House Cleaning

[plover]

There are many forms of piracy. But the MPAA believes it is in their best interest to plug them all.

The camcorder-pirated movies are going for $4 each on a blanket on a New York sidewalk. They're not worried about HDTV owners for this particular form of piracy -- as you mentioned, you wouldn't lower yourself to watch these things filmed in craptovision. They're mostly being sold to exceedingly poor people who would never pay ticket prices to see a movie in a theater anyway.

However, these same camcorder shots are being digitized and shared. And for reasons I can't fathom, idiots who spend five figures on a 60" plasma HDTV with 1200W 7.1 Dolby surround systems will then spend hours bit-torrenting an almost unwatchable 640x480 craptovision monophonic camcorder copy of the latest theatrical releases.

I think Hollywood's biggest problem with the internet is actually the instant-response time of Freedom of Speech. Many people (and critics too) will agree that most of the movies Hollywood releases really are lame. But now, once the first geek goes to see a bad movie he's likely to post "what a piece of sh!t" on his blog, and send SMS to his friends standing in line warning them away from the latest stinker. Hollywood can no longer count on getting first sales from these people.

Re:Some In-House Cleaning

[topical_surfactant]

who developed the industry into what it is...

...A hot, steaming turd.

Re:Some In-House Cleaning

[Richard_at_work]

Seriously, how many pirated copies of TOP movies actually make their way into the world via cameras?

Well, looking at a current bittorrent swarm for Batman Begins, which is more than a few months old, gives you a good impression. Around 40 different telesync and telecine torrents available, the top one has 11,830 seeds and 22,779 downloaders with the rest not that far behind. Quite a few copies of cammed films make it into the wild, it would seem.

Re:Some In-House Cleaning

[Ironsides]

The biggest threats from breaking content protection do not come from without, they come from within. Most of the high quality rips you talk about come from people who work inside the DVD production plants and save an extra copy of the files to take home with them. Or the person who works in the editing room and gives themselves a copy. Or a whole host of people involved in the chain of production who can be bribed.

Then there are some other things involved. I knew a guy who was working at a TV station when Star Wars came out in theatres, in 1977. Yes, we are talking the original one here. They called up the studio to ask for some footage of the movie so they could show some clips on the nightly news, since it was such a big hit they wanted to show people what all the fuss was about. The studio sent them the entire movie over satelite, and they recorded it to 2 inch tape. They had the entire movie, while it was still in theatres on very high quality tape.

It's not breaking the "content protection" DRM crap that is the studios problem, it is their entire assembly process that has so many holes in it.

Re:Some In-House Cleaning

[garett_spencley]

I can't remember who it was but recently I heard an "industry insider" claim that the majority of the movie industry's profits are from DVD sales now. I think he/she claimed 60% of profit comes from DVDs.

With that said, I totally agree with you. I don't go to the theaters anymore.. but I buy more DVDs than anyone I know (3 - 5 / week to watch on the weekends). I prefer buying DVDs to renting because, although it's more expensive, I don't have to worry about returning the movies and I can watch them when I'm in the mood.

I'm anxiously awaiting Batman Begins and Revenge of The Sith because I haven't seen either. Yet I have to wait until October / November for the DVDs to come out. If they came out sooner after being released in theaters I'd have bought them by now.. and if DVDs really do fuel the industry more than theaters I don't understand why they take so long to come out.

Re:Some In-House Cleaning

[thebdj]

Interesting enough, some people in the industries are upset at theaters, of course a theater insider then said stop making crap, for the low numbers and talked about dual releasing dvds and movies at the same time. Will it happen? Probably not, but the lower turn-around time is happening, even if it is slowly.

Re:Some In-House Cleaning

[Have Blue]

That's a basic concept the entire IP industry seems to have missed out on- if you pour $100 million into producing a movie and finally have it reduced down to a master ready for duplication, that master is no different from a briefcase with $100 million in it and should be treated and protected as such. If they would only invest in some production line security, they could make a serious dent in piracy.

Re:Some In-House Cleaning

[SomeGuyTyping]

Two months ago my wife and I have tried to go to the movies. We let two "buy one get one free" coupons esxpire because there was nothing worth seeing at the theatre. It's not so much the price of the ticket, but the price of the time. I want to be entertained for a couple hours, and lately, it seems the movies playing won't entertain so why go?

Re:Some In-House Cleaning

[willjohnson]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A268 77-2005Mar11.html This article is a bit outdated but it was the first one I came across. The release time between theatrical release and the DVD release is growing shorter and shorter. The primary reason seems to be to save money on the huge marketing costs for theatrical release and DVD releases. $30 million seems to be average for big budget movies. If you look at http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=island05.h tm The Island's costs and performance you can see they lost a lot of money. The studio/distributor gets about 50% of the gross box office sharing the rest with the theater chain. The studio gets something like 80% of the opening weekend revenue and the percentage slides down each following week. But you've got to figure with all of the commercials you saw for this movie that the marketing cost at least $30 million. Stealth was another example of a poor performer. Both are likely candidates for a quick DVD release so that the studio can capitalize on people's memory and spend less on DVD marketing.

So, to make a long story short, expect a lot more movies on DVD in three months time.

Re:Some In-House Cleaning

[thebdj]

I have seen these wonderful "telecine" and even the best are still noticeably camera captures. IT isn't flicker that points them out. It is horrid color bleed and particularly white outs where the brights over range the camera and blotch the whole screen out. Of course the occassional bobbing head or person walking completely in front of the camera is also fully entertaining. Finally, the sound is still fairly attrocious on most cam caps, and even if they are using tripods they really need to learn how to sit the damn this so it doesn't shake...or they are just dumb...Actually where are your numbers for digital equipment coming from? I think it is slightly more prolific then you might realize. Though I am not sure about the movies released on the format...

Think of the job security!

[glengineer]

$30 million stating out, and nowhere to go but UP! I want that job. It'll be like the anti-virus and operating systems security industry all over again. Pay us to protect you, make you feel good, and we'll do a crummy enough job so that you keep wanting to pay.

This will come in handy

[boristdog]

This will come in handy for them when they actually manage to make a movie people want to see!

Re:This will come in handy

[Anonymous Monkey]

Perhaps making a movie people want to see is how to stop piracy. If the movie looks lame I'll just not see it, or if I do I'll borrow the DVD from a friend, technically piracy. If it's a movie I do like I will buy a copy, even if I've seen it, so that the nice bean counters know that this movie that is cool will make money...Then again, I'm just one Slashdot troll, odds are my buying habits are not normal.

Re:This will come in handy

[Criterion]

"Then again, I'm just one Slashdot troll, odds are my buying habits are not normal."

Don't know about "normal", but you're not alone. Sounds just like my buying habits. Now my DVD collection is not huge, but I gladly pay for what I like.

Good money after bad...

[mr.dreadful]

two words: RCA out. Fancy encryption can always be trumped by an a/v signal out into a recording device. It's not the fastest, but it works everytime.

Re:Good money after bad...

[lowrydr310]

Wouldn't macrovision have worked to prevent something from being copied using RCA outputs? Maybe my understanding of macrovision isn't so good.

Re:Good money after bad...

[E8086]

"two words: RCA out. Fancy encryption can always be trumped by an a/v signal out into a recording device. It's not the fastest, but it works everytime."

exactly, I wonder what part of "inside job" is beyond their comprehension. Sometime during the summer my mother walked in with a bag of DVDs and said watch what you want. I looked at them and asked where she got them. It seems one of her friend's kids got a summer job at the local theater and setup a camera in the projection booth. If the MPAA is going to try installing stuff to detect cameras, I hope they're not going to have them pointed at only the paying audience. Yes, he only used a camera but he could just have easily connected a laptop to the projector's video-out.

It wouldn't hurt them to lower the cost of production. They don't need to spend over 100mil for a movie. Special effects are there to add the the movie, not make the movie. My favorite MPAA excuse was with the Hulk a fe wyrs ago. They claimed it did poorly in theaters because everyone had seem a leaked version with unfinished effects and the teeneagers text messaged their friends saying the movie sucked while in the theater watching the movie. Maybe it did so poorly because it really was that bad, I saw some of it on HBO and agree on how bad it is. And remakes and 2hr episodes called movies of old tv shows don't work either. Firefly was a decent show, but the commercials for Serenity are making it look like nothing more than a 2hr episode.

Re:Good money after bad...

[EiZei]

Well.. until posessing an analog device like that becomes an offence comparable to having a fertilizer bomb in your basement.

Re:Good money after bad...

[DavidTC]

Movie projectors do not video-out.

And don't blame the studios for Firefly being made into a movie. Blame the Fox channel from canceling the show. No one wanted it to be a movie.

Unexpected display of common sense

[Anonymous Coward]

According to the article they are looking into "ways to jam camcorders being used to record movies in cinemas illegally, and developing methods of detecting illegal content sharing on peer-to-peer networks". I don't have a problem with that. At least they're not proposing another copy protection scheme that will only ever inconvenience their paying customers while the pirates probably won't even notice.

Yet.

They've been trying to stop Software Copying Since

[TastyWheat]

The C-64. I remember ripping the C-64 game protection just for fun. They spent tons. What will change now? Only the names.

Stop Pirating

[CastrTroy]

I've got a way for them to stop piracy. It's called not overpricing your product. I used to pirate a lot of movies, then I discovered Zip.Ca, where I could rent 15 movies a month for $25. I could rent more, but I can't watch them that fast. If they would drop the price on CDs, I wouldn't pirate those either. I think the biggest reason for pirating is the cost of getting stuff the legal way. $10+ to see a movie in theatres, $80 for a concert, $20 for a dvd or cd. If they don't lower their prices, people will continue to pirate, no matter how much they try and stop it.

Re:Stop Pirating

[Red Flayer]

"If they don't lower their prices, people will continue to pirate, no matter how much they try and stop it. "

Even if they lower their prices, people will still buy black market copies. Why do you think most second-run theaters are out of business? Pirated copies will always be cheaper.

You want to know what their biggest profit problem is? I'll give you a hint, it's not revenues.

Obviously, Tom Cruise ain't worth 25 million if his movies don't sell well. Obviously, crazy-good special effects aren't worth it when your movies grosses half what your CGI costs.

Why are CEOs and other officers in other industries expected to maximize profits by balancing revenue and expenses? Why are movie studios not always under the same pressure? And why should we, the consumers, have to pay for their egregious cost-overruns? Because if they get a scheme in place that guarantees profitability, that's what we're doing.

Re:Stop Pirating

[Red Flayer]

Please explain.

Your post makes no sense, but I am interested in hearing what you have to say.

Best of luck...

[HerculesMO]

The brightest minds in the world being paid to create copywrite protection is NO MATCH for the brilliant mind in some Norweigan country who is MOTIVATED to crack that protection.

It's always a losing game. Maybe think about offering better choices and making it more CONVIENIENT to get music? Oh what do I know... I'm just a consumer!

Re:Best of luck...

[HerculesMO]

I meant to say Scandanavian... Oh well.. I skipped work yesterday, so it's like Monday for me :)

Re:Best of luck...

[Gldm]

Check the sig I've been using the last few years for more info.

Re:Best of luck...

[teutonic_leech]

There's only one 'Norwegian country' - Norway!! Maybe you were referring to the 'North European' countries? I just wish you Americans would take a look at an atlas or a map sometimes...

Re:Best of luck...

[HerculesMO]

I guess your 'European' or 'Asian' culture instead allows you only to read a single comment instead of reading my followup for using the wrong word.

So sorry, I won't let your higher intellect fall into the trap of not figuring out I misused a word without explicitly explaining it and further, I will make sure when I post an initial time, to "Refer to followups" so that you can process the extra information that may be a load on your small mind.

So fuck off, troll.

This is rich!

[Criterion]

They can spend all they want. As long as the movie is viewable in some form, it can be captured. Even if they were to come out with the ultimate gee-whiz uncrackable encryption, all it takes is somebody to rig up their hdtv setup with a high def camcorder, and it's all over. It's not even a fair fight, because it's one that absolutely impossible for them to win... kinda like trying to keep people from snagging a picture off the 'net. No matter what you do to try and protect it, there are ways around it.

Re:This is rich!

[Criterion]

LOL! :)

"on a related note, that 0-byte dvd would still make for better viewing than any of this summer's releases..."

Ain't that the truth. The only DVD I'm looking forward to being released this year is Animusic 2 :D. Maybe they'll release the re-master Cosmos series after it airs. I'd get that also.

When Will They Get It?

[quibbs0]

What was that famous quote? "Those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it." I think that's it.

Have we not seen since the days of VCR's and tapes and CD's that things are NOT changing? No matter what, there is always going to be someone trying to circumvent the technology, and someone is going to succeed. I'm compare this with terrorism:

To think that we can stop terrorism is complete hogwash. We may kill a ton of bad apples, but there's always gonna be atleast one more guy that thinks he's saving the world from the "infidels" by blowing himself up in public.

Rather than fight the technology, work with it and in a more positive direction. Don't just try to keep finding "patches". The day piracy ends will be the same day Windows FINAL, Completely Patched Edition comes out.

Now, I'm off to combat childhood obesity and global warming!

Re:When Will They Get It?

[patdabiker]

With childhood obesity, global warming, and terrorism, I would say that despite the fact that they may be impossible to fix, we are obligated to keep trying. They are bad. We can change them for the better. Why give up because the solution will never be entirely complete? We MUST try.

I would say the MPAA and RIAA have the same attitude.

I remember when...

[goldspider]

I remember when it didn't used to be a crime to watch a movie.

Re:I remember when...

[H_Fisher]

When they came for the people who were camming movies in the theaters, I said nothing, because I didn't watch crappy reencoded cams.

When they came for the people leaking the screeners, I said nothing because I never watched them: I hated that stupid time-counter at the top of the screen.

When they came for the P2P filesharers, I said nothing because I never downloaded movies: I hated the hassle and could never find what I wanted.

Now they're coming for my fair-use rights, and I can't watch anything at all.

Re:Don't be rediculous

[chrismcdirty]

The movie industry is not a charity

Maybe one day UNICEF will get into the movie industry. But until then, Walt Disney, Sony, Paramount, Warner Bros, Universal and 20th Century Fox are the guys to see.

Legal copies!

[thames]

I don't care what they do or what they invent, as long as I can make digital copies of the DVDs (or HD-DVDs or whatever they are called in the future) I legaly buy. It's legal to do so where I live and hence I should be able to do it.

I don't own any ilegal movies, and I don't want to be punished for what others might do!

Staling the open standard

[timeToy]

This looks like another attempt at staling an open standard on DRM, Hollywood do not wants online distribution now, they make too much money on DVD, and they where able to mandate all the DRM and content encryption and player revocation scheme that they never dream possible of in the HD-DVD and Blue Ray, on top of that now Apple, M$ and Intel are also bowing and incorporate all the nasty stuff that Hollywood is asking, from the M$'s "secure Content path" to Apple's TPM chip to Intel's hardware "trusted computer" shit. Hollywood is in such a powerful position now that all that they are doing is make sure they are completely locking the user out of they own content.

$30m to stop piracy?

[Crash McBang]

Cheap at twice the price!

In the words of Chairman Jobs, "Security is a journey, not a destination".

These guys are gonna pay $30m/yr and more every year, forever.

And pass on the cost to the consumer.

3.5bn?

[Petaris]

3.5 billion seems a little high if you ask me. I know there are many people out there pirating movies (I am not one of them, if I like it I buy it) but what are they counting here? Is this figure actually lost sales (of dvd, vhs, and movie tickets) plus legal costs of taking pirates to court plus their anti-pirating markenting campaign all rolled together?

I mean really, this is almost more expensive then Iraq. Yes I am exagerating but you get my point. If they are loosing 3.5bn a year and still making profits then perhaps they are charging too much.

Just my thoughts,

Re:3.5bn?

[qwijibo]

Sorry, that's my fault.

I don't go to theatres because they're too expensive. Whenever I see a commercial for a movie that looks good, I make a mental note to buy that on DVD when it comes out. I figure for $3-6 more than a movie ticket, I'd rather have the DVD. Of course, by the time the movie eventually comes out on DVD, I've completely forgotten everything about it, including my past interest in purchasing their product.

I have the same problem with TV. I watch one show, and if it happens to be the one that doesn't suck, I want to purchase the season on DVD. However, they won't sell it to me until they've shown all of the episodes and gotten all the advertising money from commercials that they can get.

Movie piracy does not cost the companies anything. The people who are pirating movies wouldn't pay for them if they were a penny a piece. Claiming this as a loss is just creative bookkeeping (fraud) on the part of the movie companies.

The real harm is being done every day by people like me who could purchase their products, but don't. I'm a bad consumer. I should be taken out and shot for my crimes against the corporations.

Re:3.5bn?

[MisterMurphy]

Attorney Bob: Hey, Mitch, have you figured out how much our clients are losing each year from piracy per anum, yet?
Accountant Mitch: One second. Three. And a five.
Attorney Bob: 35 what?
Accountant Mitch: Let's call it 3.5 Billion. That's a nice number. By the way, it was a great idea to have these planning sessions during our weekly D&D game. Finding facts and figures has never been easier.
Attorney Bob: Oooh! A critical hit!

Re:3.5bn?

[shark72]

"Movie piracy does not cost the companies anything. The people who are pirating movies wouldn't pay for them if they were a penny a piece. Claiming this as a loss is just creative bookkeeping (fraud) on the part of the movie companies."

About six months back my girlfriend gave me a Chinese bootleg copy of "Kung Fu Hustle." I thought it was hilarious. I threw a screening party and about ten of my friends came over to watch it. This was around the time that the film was opening in the theatres. My friends are all avid-movie goers, and many of them would have gone to see it in the theatre if I hadn't procured the bootleg copy.

This is why I laugh when I see blanket statements like "The people who are pirating movies wouldn't pay for them if they were a penny a piece." I'm sure several people will tell me that I am the only exception in the world and that no other person on the planet has used piracy as a way to save money, but I don't believe it.

Re:3.5bn?

[blahplusplus]

"people who are pirating movies wouldn't pay for them if they were a penny a piece."

I would pay for them if they were a penny a piece, 100 DVD's for 1 whole dollar, averaging about 1.5 hours per DVD (some more, some less), so thats roughly 150 hours of entertainment that would last you at least 2 months maybe less if you watched one or more every night instead of when you felt like it. Factor in internet, TV and other distractions and you got at least 3+ months of viewing for one whole dollars heh.

Re:3.5bn?

[Jherek Carnelian]

About six months back my girlfriend gave me a Chinese bootleg copy of "Kung Fu Hustle."

Are you so sure it was a bootleg? Kung-Fu Hustle, like all the recent big asian theatrical releases in the US (Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, Hero, House of Flying Daggers, Oldboy) had been legitimately available on DVD in Hong Kong and other asian countries long before they opened in the US.

It is not just Asia either, Brit films too - Shaun of the Dead and Bend it Like Beckham were released to DVD in the UK and Europe before they even opened in the US.

Re:3.5bn?

[shark72]

That's a valid question. Although legitimate copies of said film have been available in Asia for quite a while, the copy she gave me was one of many that she bought for a buck apiece in Beijing.

Most of the films that she bought were ones that I would not have seen in the theatre. However, about five of them were, so I can honestly say that her actions saved me money that I otherwise would have spent at the movie theatre. I don't pirate very often, but when I do, at least I acknowledge that I do it to save money, rather than taking the approach that many Slashdotters do of flying the "information wants to be free" banner and trying to elevate it to a social protest that's akin to the Montgomery Freedom March.

Re:3.5bn?

[StikyPad]

Shit! I had $250 on a hard 8. New roller!

Re:3.5bn?

[Jherek Carnelian]

I don't pirate very often, but when I do, at least I acknowledge that I do it to save money, rather than taking the approach that many Slashdotters do of flying the "information wants to be free" banner and trying to elevate it to a social protest that's akin to the Montgomery Freedom March.

But, you do have to admit that the reason you can do it to save money is because information wants to be free. It's no more a social cause than gravity is.

HOWTO: Fight Movie Piracy

[FlukeMeister]

A simple guide for movie executives.

1. Release films worldwide at the same time.
2. Stop policing movie theatres with security guards and confiscating mobile phones as potential "recording equipment" and creating customer antipathy.
3. Release films to DVD within a month of their theatre release.
4. Stop putting region coding and anti-copying measures on DVDs.

And finally, the most important:

5. Stop your own employees from stealing and duplicating your films and selling them to criminal organisations for mass duplication.

Re:HOWTO: Fight Movie Piracy

[cliffski]

you forgot the best one:

remove unskippable bits fom DVDs, and dont put adverts in front of the feature on a DVD I flipping PAID FOR.

Re:HOWTO: Fight Movie Piracy

[Ironsides]

A simple guide for movie executives.
1. Release films worldwide at the same time.
2. Stop policing movie theatres with security guards and confiscating mobile phones as potential "recording equipment" and creating customer antipathy.
3. Release films to DVD within a month of their theatre release.
4. Stop putting region coding and anti-copying measures on DVDs.
And finally, the most important:
5. Stop your own employees from stealing and duplicating your films and selling them to criminal organisations for mass duplication.

1) Check, already being done
2) They are idiots to even bother trying this
3) This might kill the movie theatres, especially the low cost 3rd run ones that don't show a movie until it has been out for 3 months, as they will be showing the movie while it is already out in DVD. They are already having problems with the as low as 3 month time between movie and DVD release as is. (Remember, not all theatres are owned by the studios).
4) Would love this, especially as how some of us want movies that would never be released in other regions. Though I guess copyright law would have to change some (not that it can't use the update) so that there are no regional restrictions on sales/distribution.
5) This is their bigest problem, thought they are loathe to admit it.

Re:HOWTO: Fight Movie Piracy

[willjohnson]

Actually no theatre is supposed to be owned by a studio.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_Anti-trust_ Case_of_1948

Re:HOWTO: Fight Movie Piracy

[Lehk228]

solution 2
limewire and a burner

Idiots.

[grub]

Spend that $30 million on studying how to make quality movies that people would want to pay to see.

Re:Don't be rediculous

[ergo98]

Don't be rediculous

Sigh. Pedantry is lame, but rediculous has been a particularly virulent misspelling. ridiculous. If I can stop just one person from perpetuating this, then this post will be worth it.

Unlike this "$30 million dollars to piss in the public's faces" lab

To use some of their own lame terminology, I want the magic of the movies to continue. I want them to spend $300 million on the next hyper-realistic super-imaginary world, and I'm willing to be one of those few stupid people to see it in a theatre, or to buy it or rent it on DVD. If the investment needs protecting to be financially viable in the future, then they should go nuts. If it thwarts you and your false-moral belief that you have some sort of God given right to free Olsen twins movies, well that's too bad for you.

$30M? Cheap at the price..

[carsamba]

Studios churning out lousy movies (remakes, tie-ins, sequels, whatever) nobody will see -or want to remember seeing-. Throwing another 30 down the drain is piffle. A good anti-piracy effort would be to create a good, high quality technology which is also affordable. That way a lot less people would want to spend the effort to get hold of bootlegs. That, and making fewer and better movies. The way I see it, the celebrities, the producers etc make way too much anyway.

Anti-anti-piracy day?

[Alwin Henseler]

Is today "anti-anti-piracy day" at Slashdot?

Look like it. And you know what's really weird? None of these stories even mentioned boats, guns, or tools for navigating/communicating on the high seas.

What's next? Equalling "pirates" to "terrorists"? Oh wait...

Re:Anti-anti-piracy day?

[aichpvee]

RIAA is just supporting global warming.

Mark the film

[sxmjmae]

Why not insert a visibly hidden serial number to the film. This serial number could be applied to all releases of the film (pre-theaters reviews one, etc). A unique serial number for each real.

If a pirated moved if found just go to the point in the film where the hidden serial number is located. Then track back you had access to that film. If a theater then threaten not to allow them access to your films any more and sue them for damages for allowing the piracy. If it is a pre-release reviewer edition the same actions can be taken against them.

How hard would it be to just add a serial number to 10 frames here and 10 frames there? Hidden in the back ground somewhere. In stead of just a number it could a colour or the insertion of a special object (IE: Green coffe cup of a specific style.)

I do not think the studios want to really know where the piracy is really come from - their own staff!

Re:Mark the film

[Spudnuts]

They are already doing this with the CAP code system.

Re:Mark the film

[two_ply]

Because once the release group gets their hands on two copies, they can just run a diff on the movies and kill any water marking.

Also, who's to say that the guy who is inserting the serial numbers in the movie prints might isn't the same guy who is doing the pirating?
.

This just in....

[masdog]

Movie pirates have found away around the movie industries recent attempts to stop piracy. By screwing on a simple IR Cut filter which can be purchased at any number of photography supply stores, the movie industries attempts to jam camcorders are thwarted.

The MPAA has announced lawsuits against the makers of these products and the retailers who sell them.

Market Forces: Piracy Killer

[ThosLives]

The only thing to stop piracy is market forces. And, the odd thing is, market forces won't even stop piracy. Here's what has to happen for folks to be happy (and this just won't happen, folks!), even though I've said it several times now.

Ignore pirates completely. If the amount of revenue you get from your product from paying customers isn't enough to produce more product, you stop producing the product and people don't have it. People aren't entitled to always have someone producing a product, and you're not required to always produce it.

If, however, pirates exist and you have enough paying customers to cover your costs, keep going and be fine; if you want to increase your profits, you can be like any other industry and cut your costs or try to make new product for which more people are willing to pay. Simple as that, and they are all market forces, and don't rely at all on legislation.

Contrary to all the analyses you read, the value of pirated product is not (current sales price)x(number pirated), it is actually (price of unit required to make volume current volume plus pirated volume)x(current volume plus pirated volume) - (current revenue), and those are totally different numbers. It may even turn out that, in order to get everyone to purchase a legal copy, that the price would drop such that the total revenue would be less than the current revenue - and that's an analysis you won't see in any report anywhere.

Hrm. I think I ought to try and get that last paragraph published somewhere, but I'm going to bet that it's not an original thought. If it is, that explains a lot...

Get in line

[Eunuch]

Getting this job is going to be very tough. I doubt a single (not "independently wealthy") here would not work for this or Microsoft--despite all the pointless anti-IP blather. I doubt you'd make it to an interview.

Just start a new company with 1 employee

[TimCrider]

MPAA + 30 million = Anti Piracy Lab
DVD Jon + Hot Pockets = Anti-Anti Piracy Lab

which one would you buy stock in?

Blowing smoke

[rkhalloran]

The studios are quietly admitting to themselves that a big part of this season's lousy box office has been the glut of LOUSY MOVIES (NYT link).

However, throwing $30M at an anti-piracy effort lets them point fingers as do all the RIAA lawsuits against 14-year-olds, vs. actually admitting their business model is desperately fscked.

Re:Blowing smoke

[gl4ss]

shitty movies and yet they are still _MAKING_ _MONEY_.

not losing.

Re:Blowing smoke

[rkhalloran]

>>yet they are still _MAKING_ _MONEY_

Never said they weren't, just not the unspeakably obscene amounts they were hauling in the last couple of years, so obviously it must be because of downloading that people aren't breaking down the doors at the theaters.

Hmmm, so-so economy, rising ticket prices, content that makes Sturgeon's Law sound optimistic; yup, must be those meddlesome kids and their P2P.

Just an idea...

[Tanlis]

but quit paying the actors $15 million for one damn movie!!

Most of them don't even deserve to be payed that much.

Or don't put a stunt in that costs half of what the movie cost to produce. We've seen one car chase with tons of wrecks and explosions, we don't need another! Do you hear me Michael Bay?!

What happened to a good story?!

Re:Just an idea...

[borg007]

Don't you understand their revenues are down! Only digital pirates armed with cameras are going to the movies! They aren't making any money! However, 12 films grossed over $100,000,000, 5 of those broke $200,000,000, and one grossed over $300,000,000. You know what "they" say. A hundred million here and a hundred million there and pretty soon you're talking about REAL money. Numbers are from http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/records/100milli on.html.

The answer is in the question

[stunt_penguin]

The answer to the studio's problems is already within their grasp. They should produce good quality movies that people don't have to pay the earth to see, and respect their customer base as their most precious asset, not a faceless mass to be cajoled into theaters and punished for trying to take something which they couldn't really afford.

+1 insightful

[Eunuch]

I'd work there in a heartbeat. And donate part of my pay to transhumanism--so all this IP stuff becomes moot.

Re:Don't be rediculous

[Anonymous Coward]

If it thwarts you and your false-moral belief that you have some sort of God given right to free Olsen twins movies,

I'm not sure what you're talking about. I've never downloaded a movie in my life, or even considered doing so. I'm just saying, if you're willing to pay the prices the MPAA are demanding to watch the absolute trash they've been putting out lately and get insulted with 20 minutes of commercials in the process, you are an idiot.

Reduce, maybe, stop? No..

[McLetter]

$30 million dollars.. The best they are going to get out of all that money is probably a small reduction in the ammount of piracy, if even that. Their biggest mistake would be to try and and reduce piracy by creating more complex encryptions, etc.. Cause there will always be someone who will break it and figure out how to get around the new system. Waste of money if you ask me.

Re:Losses due to?

[bbc]

""we're not making enough!, oh here's US 30M to play with new technology to potentially deter the piracy community""

That's called: you've got to spend money to make money.

Anti-anti-piracy

[archon4571]

Computer world unites to laugh at movie industry and reminds them of the worldwide team of anti-anti-piracy people. I think the game industry tried this type of thing? Still haven't found a game that someone hasn't found a way around...

It is just a usless cycle

[Caffeinebot]

I find it to be true that this is a useless maneuver on the side of the MPAA, Unfortunately, as most comments seem to indicate, the MPAA is not looking to stop piracy altogether. By introducing such research labs they are looking to make the process difficult and annoying to make a close 1:1 copy of the images through traditional codec compression (Sure you can also always stick a hi-def camcorder on the viewing end). However, by making the process more complex for traditional rips, you start creating a class of elites (given that such people exist in the near future), those who know how to circumvent the protections- making it hard for traditional home users to do the same. Its a useless battle, however, because as things get more complex, the tools that we use to copy this media would also evolve to care for the more casual computer user. Thus forwarding the Revolution. Its a stupid game, and as has been stated before, they need to remodel the way they their business runs.

animal testing?

[wardk]

Just as long as they don't test their shit on poor defenseless animals, they can open as many labs as they want. I say.

A philosophical argument

[MoogMan]

Interesting... Philosophically, how can you stop somebody reading something that is designed to be read?

build a....

[millahtime]

build a better mouse trap, get a smarter mouse.

Re:build a....

[Conspiracy_Of_Doves]

*notices the sig*

Yeah, it forces the mouse to evolve.

I remember no protection on...

[LunaticTippy]

...the protection-busting applications. Although I never actually bought one.

Always seemed interesting that the experts on copy-protection didn't bother using it.

Re:I remember no protection on...

[Osiris Ani]

Always seemed interesting that the experts on copy-protection didn't bother using it.

Not really. They're the ones that are most likely to fully understand the utter futility of such a scheme.

What the hell?

[Elshar]

You know, I used to think the movie industry was just slow. I mean, noone really enjoys those incredibly crappy handheld cam recordings of movies complete with people making noise, babies crying, and people getting up to goto the bathroom/consession stands midway through.

I think they're going totally in the wrong direction. They need to fling $30m at creating a online distribution model that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. That would stop online piracy. I mean, why spend 2-12 hours download the latest harry potter movie only to find out its a cam rip or its the latest "lebian space vixens" porn movie when you can download it for a buck or two?

I honestly hope this goes nowhere. And I hope they throw more money at pissing people off. Already since the first round of lawsuits I've stopped renting, buying and going to movie theatres. They need to get a clue. People downloading crap off the 'net would likely pay a small sum to download non-crap off the 'net, ala iTunes.

Just give it to DVDjon...

[inkdesign]

...and beg him to stop!

Honestly.

[Perryman]

Would you pay for a legitimate torrent sponsored by the MPAA $2 to download and watch a hit movie once on your computer? Say, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, or some good movie. Say $5 or $10 to download it and have unlimited watching. Sounds fair to me. I should be allowed to watch my DVD on my computer anyway. What do you think?

Don't say you have not been warned...

[Stormwatch]

"If Coca-Cola accidentally created 100 million cans of faulty Coke, you know for sure the entire 100 million cans would be dropped in the Atlantic or Pacific Ocean, without a second thought and irrespective of what that did to the year's profits. What do we do with a crappy movie? We double its advertising budget and hope for a big opening weekend. What have we done for the audience as they walk out of the cinema? We've alienated them. We've sold audiences a piece of junk; we just took twelve dollars away from a couple and we think we've done ourselves no long-term damage."--- David Puttnam, movie producer (from GQ magazine, April 1987)

Re:Don't say you have not been warned...

[ErikTheRed]

Excellent Quote!

Re:Don't say you have not been warned...

[Jherek Carnelian]

David Puttnam (Born February 25, 1941) - a well known hollywood producer known for his outspoken nature was found in his home in Ventura dead of a drug overdose at 6:30am on May 2nd --Obituary Section, Los Angeles Times May 3rd, 1987.

Since the focus is on Technology...

[halcyon1234]

... they should take that $30M, and make an iMovie store.

The actual startup should be fairly small. They already have office space and staff. Even if they spend, say, $5M on some serious kick ass servers with tons of terrabytes and RAIDS and stuff, they'd have a lot left over.

Then they target the fringier market. With $25M, they easily purchase the rights to a number of "will definately sell" titles, and shove them out for $2.50 a piece. For an extra $.50, you can get high quality scans of all the cover and book art.

Then they open up the servers to the world. Let any existing movie that they DON'T own the rights for be posted (with copyright holder's permission, of course), to be downloaded by Torrent. Here's the catch:

1) For free, you host the file, they host the tracker.
2) For a small fee ($50?), they host the file and the tracker.

Since it's all by torrent, their bandwidth overhead is very, very low. Every torrent page has a little banner that says "Enjoy the movie, and please keep your torrent open.".

OR for a free membership, you have a UL/DL ratio. For a small fee (say $10 per year) you have an unlimited ratio. Again, bandwidth is not much of a concern for the company itself.

The servers will keep track of how much these movies are downloaded, and how they are rated by the people who watch them (10/10!). Right now, the MPAA refuses to import a LOT of good movies, because they aren't certain if there's a market for them. But with this system, if a movie is popular enough to hit a certain threashold, the company contacts the copyright holder and purchases non-electronic distro rights.

THEN they send out an e-alert to everyone who has downloaded it saying "Movie X to be available on DVD soon. Preorder your copy today, and save $X. Lots of bonus material to be had, plus a pretty case." A good majority of them will shell out $10 or so to buy the movie. Near instant profit. The company prints up a batch of the DVDs... enough to cover pre-orders... and puts the rest into an estore. The movie is popular enough that they might even be able to shop it around to Blockbuster et all.

More profit with near-zero risk. Near zero overhead, since bandwidth is covered, there's no physical product until there's a demand, and the MPAA is footing the bill of the building itself.

In the meantime, Google Ads is keeping their coffers full of loose change.

And now, what to do with all that profit... and not to mention the $20M left over from the initial budget?

Simple. As this company gets bigger and bigger, the MPAA gets smaller and smaller. Its stocks devalue. Its overpriced products stop turning a profit (because of their archaic distrobution method). Eventually, the MPAA itself becomes so devalued, that the offspring company hostilly takes it over. They fire everyone, dissovle the company, and now EVERY movie is distrobuted this way. Piracy isn't a concern for the new-MPAA, since they're offering a cheap, desirable alternative with little or no overhead.

Voila. For $30M, the problem is solved.

Death of a sales*IAA

[N3wsByt3]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the *IAAs are fighting a lost cause. And I think they know it.

First off all, I have difficulties with their acclaimed 'stealing' of music, as they always proclaim it is. As far as I know, stealing implies that the one that has been stolen has been derived of something. When you take a copy, you do not take the original away, thus they have not 'lost' anything. They might claim that they loose money when ppl d/l music, but even that is far from certain. Not only is it not shown statistically to have had that effect (they didn't even show a correlation thusfar - see aussie music-news - let alone a causality). Furthermore, in an individual case, they would have to show they actually lost revenue. Which is far from said, because I sure know some guys who d/l music, but would NEVER have bought that music if they were unable to d/l it. So, how did the RIAA/IFPI loose revenue, exactly? And if they didn't lose anything, how can the term 'stealing' apply?

It would still be copyright-infringement, ofcourse, but that's another matter. I think maybe it's time we went beyond our current system of copyrights and walk into the era of cyberspace. With the industrial revolution, patents and copyrights knew a high flight, maybe it's time to let it leave and try something new? Maybe something in the lines of this: fairshare.

And don't worry, contrary to what the RIAA claims, musicians will not starve to death, and music-making will not stop. We had music long before we had copyrights, and we will have music long after copyrights have vanished from the scene.

And lastly, it's something that *can not* be stopped. P2P progs and their development act as organisms that follow the darwinian rules of survival. When Napster was 'killed' by the RIAA, immediately others (like kazaa) took over, being more resistent to attacks from the RIAA&co. Whenever kazaa will be shut down, others again will take over. When endusers are targeted, systems that protect the user will become dominant (like FreeNet).

It really is a lost cause. But then again, they are not truelly battling for the survival of musicians (as I said; they will survive, just as they used to do), it's for their OWN survival they are fighting. There is no way in hell they are going to keep the giant profits that they have been gathering for the last decades.

But ultimately, they will have to do what P2P systems are already doing: adapt to the new circumstances (and forget about the former levels of profit), or whither and die.

M$30? I'll do the work...

[HermanAB]

M$30 is a tidy sum. I'll gladly develop them a super incredible anti piracy system. Of course, all half tech savvy persons know it won't really work and won't have any effect on piracy, but the Movie Moguls don't know that...

You people should be more supportive

[Winterblink]

Come on. Support this initiative. Get all their technical anti-piracy brainiacs in one building. It gives us a single set of coordinates to test the orbital defense grid with.

Re:Don't be rediculous

[Criterion]

I don't know.. sometimes the movie previews are the best part.. you get to the the best 5 minutes of the movie without having to sit through the whole thing hehe.

A giant step in combatting 20% of the problem

[serutan]

These movie piracy articles always have the same themes -- stop p2p, stop camcorders in theaters. The fact that 80% of pirated movies are leaked by industry insiders (New Scientist) is NEVER mentioned. They've got the public convinced that movie piracy consists of techno-geeks sneaking hidden cameras into theaters and posting the files on p2p networks. Never mind that those camcorder versions are crap. The high quality copies everybody wants are made directly from the originals by people within the movie industry. It's the same mentality as blaming terrorists for every problem.

Piracy might be a problem, but

[Windcatcher]

...it's not what's causing them to lose money. They're losing money because they're making movies no one wants to see. They don't seem to understand that word gets around about bad movies and we're not such undiscriminating cattle that we'll shell out $9.50 just for the heck of it.

I just saw AVP: Aliens vs. Predator for the first time on cable. On the one hand I'm glad I knew to wait for cable (you can usually tell if a movie is dog sh*t from the trailer), but I'm also sorry I wasted two hours last night watching it. It's bad enough that it was crap -- but it's such a blatant attempt to sucker in the fanboys that it's just sickening.

As I think about this, I think there needs to be a Godwin's Movie Law:

When a movie is compared to Aliens in an effort to sell it, it is immediately relegated to the category 'Dog Sh*t' and should not be watched on any medium, ever (even free ones).

Translation: if moviemakers can't make their Sci-Fi film stand on its own and have to try to ride the popularity of Aliens to sell it, then you already know everything you need to know about it: it's crap.

And here are some of my personal movie laws:

- Do not watch a movie based on a video game, ever. It is not worth watching. If you know someone who actually paid to watch one, slap him with a large trout for being such a sucker.

- Do not star in any of the above movies -- it will wreck your career. People sometimes confuse bad writing with bad acting. Don't walk away from such a movie, RUN.

- CGI is no substitute for talent (yes, George, I'm talking to YOU)

Re:Piracy might be a problem, but

[runderwo]

- Do not watch a movie based on a video game, ever.

Of course, a corollary to that is simply the converse: do not play a video game based on a movie, ever. For just about the same reasons.

Re:Piracy might be a problem, but

[iamjoltman]

"- Do not watch a movie based on a video game, ever. It is not worth watching. If you know someone who actually paid to watch one, slap him with a large trout for being such a sucker."
Of course, this, as all laws, have their exceptions. I personally enjoyed the Resident Evil films, and I never even played the games (could that be why, less bias against it?)
On the other hand, people may have said that about most comic book movies, especially Marvel at one time (cheap Captain America, Punisher...), now see Spider-man, X-men...

They should research Perpetual Motion instead

[jrifkin]

They should research Perpetual Motion instead. It's just as doable but the return on investment will be much bigger!!!

Take a page...

[micromuncher]

from the book of SOFTWARE copy protection.

I worked in this field for years; having been a misguided youth it was strangely appropriate. There was one brutal reality. The costs to invent copy protection schemes was exponential. It had the side effect of complicating the production process. The cost to break copy protection is linear. That, and you have a whole bunch more misguided youth that will try and crack it.

So the real issue is WHY? Is it commercial piracy that's the issue? Or the consumer? Either way - they seem to ignore another market reality - that is the death of the Video store is fueled by the availability of CHEAP DVDs...

If it's about movie price

[Sycraft-fu]

Then why do all movies cost the same? The Matrix, and sequels were some of the $100m+ movies you speak of. Cost $8.50 at the theatre near me. Sin City was $40m, mostly paid up front by Rodriguez, also cost me $8.50 at the same theatre. Gigli was $22m, and though I didn't see it, the price was the same, $8.50. Or taking some older films, Pi had a production cost of about $60,000 (1998 dollars). It was about $8.00 IIRC, though not at the same theatre (hadn't been built yet).

You know, I don't see a scaling of price and movie tickets. It seems to me I pay just as much to see a small budget film as I do a big budget film. This is additonally odd seeing as most big budget films make back their investment. Not universally true, of course, but generally they do. Many of them even make a lot of money.

So, if ticket prices truly were based on costs, shouldn't low-budget indy films be less? Wouldn't it even perhaps be a good business decision? I mean blockbuster effects type films are widely popular and with some marketing, it's easy to convince most people to go. However low budget indys are harder, people are used to high production values and thus often snub them. Wouldn't a lower ticket price help allure them?

Or, could it be, that it's just more of the movie industry being greedy? Remember these are the same people that are mandidating that for any HD movie spec HDCP will be REQUIRED. So be it HD-DVD or Blu-Ray, you'll have to have DVI/HDMI out to an HDCP compatible display. If you go analogue, no HD for you, if it even plays at all.

My bet? Ticket prices are atrifically inflated. The studios do NO competition on price. They've fixed one price, for all movies regardless of source and cost. The only variance is per theatre or area.

The day I start seeing cheap movies for less, and start seeing one production company trying to underprice another, maybe I believe they prices are justified. For now, I think they are in every way as reality based as CD prices: Which is to say not at all.

Re:If it's about movie price

[hackstraw]

Then why do all movies cost the same?

Because the current business model is how many of those tickets can you sell in the first two weeks (or so, that is what the movie studio gets all of the ticket sales, and then a greatly reduced amount after that).

A $100million movie, where a good percentage of that is marketing, is trying to hype the movie to reclaim its costs in a weekend.

Also, being that most theaters have multiple movies showing at the same time, I doubt they want to compete over price for viewing.

Re:If it's about movie price

[shmlco]

"It seems to me I pay just as much to see a small budget film as I do a big budget ... films make back their investment."

For every blockbuster there's a dozen that just break even and another two dozen that don't. You should check out the gross for "Sound of Thunder"...

A "big budget" film is just a bigger risk. The successful films subsidize those that are less so. And until opening day, no one really knows which one is which. Star Wars was "projected" by many to be a total flop.

And indie films typically have much smaller audiences, which in turn need to pay more (the same) to break even.

Re:If it's about movie price

[Have Blue]

The only completely fair pricing would be to have you pay according to a scale of how much you enjoyed the movie. For a movie you loved you'd pay more than (e.g.) $8, for a movie you hated you'd pay less than $8 (and for Gigli they'd pay you). However, this value cannot be determined at the ticket counter, so the same price for all movies, all of which have the potential to entertain you or not, is a fair compromise.

(Alternatively, why do the producers of Pi deserve less money than the producers of The Matrix just because they didn't have big-name actors and thousands of man-hours of CGI work?)

Re:If it's about movie price

[Dirtside]

Or, could it be, that it's just more of the movie industry being greedy?

All industries are greedy, all the time, or they cease to exist. Stop pretending that the movie industry is some kind of special evil. But that's tangential; on to the main point.

The studios (mostly) do not own movie theaters. Most theaters decide their own ticket prices. Per-movie pricing has several quite real economic problems:

0) Theater owners don't end up getting most of the ticket receipts. In the first weeks of a major release, most of the ticket revenue goes to the distributor. In later weeks, the percentage shifts until finally the theater owners gets all of the ticket revenue, but usually by that time, attendance is low for that film, and so they get very little money out of it. Switching to a market-based ticket-pricing system would not benefit the theater owners in the slightest.

1) If you're going to do it, you want to do it right, which means that pricing needs to change in real time in response to supply and demand. Conveying this information to the consumer would be very difficult. A movie might cost $5 when you leave home, and then be $10 when you get there, which would be a very nasty surprise. Hell, the price of a movie might double in the time it takes you to get to the front of the line. Online ticket-buying might alleviate this problem, since prices would not change much in the few seconds it would take to confirm the transaction electronically.

Displaying this information would also be very space-intensive. Putting all that information on the big board behind the ticket counter would require a lot of space. And what about discount (children/seniors/students/etc.) tickets? Now you've got to display four or five times the info.

2) Moviegoers will not tolerate rapid fluctuations in the cost of entertainment. They go to the movies to be entertained, not to try and get a good deal on tickets. Having to deal with market fluctuations, waiting for the right time to get good prices, etc. interferes with the potential for enjoying the experience.

3) It doesn't cost a theater significantly more or less to show movie A versus movie B. They may recoup more or less of their costs, but the actual cost of showing the movie is fairly stable. (It can go up or down based on attendance; more moviegoers means you need more security and janitorial staff; you also need more concessions and ticket sellers, but if you need more, it means you're also earning more, whereas security and janitorial are both "pure loss.")

4) The studios would get pissed off when their movies got price-slashed. They'd (rightly) think that moviegoers would use the movie's ticket price as a gauge of its popularity and therefore quality. Theater owners are not likely to do things that piss off their suppliers.

5) Demand for a particular movie might, in fact, not change in response to price. The number of people who go see "Deuce Bigalow: European Gigolo" would almost certainly not increase by any significant amount if the ticket price was drastically reduced. I'd bet that most people would not see that movie even if they were paid the ticket price instead.

6) Don't forget the flipside: Highly popular movies would suffer from extremely inflated ticket prices. Want to see Episode III opening weekend at the Cinerama Dome? That's $50 a ticket, please, because every show will sell out in a matter of hours since demand is so high.

Re:If it's about movie price

[Jherek Carnelian]

Because the current business model is how many of those tickets can you sell in the first two weeks (or so, that is what the movie studio gets all of the ticket sales, and then a greatly reduced amount after that).

No, they only take about 80% of the box office on the first week, and it is a slow, steady decline each week after that until it levels off around 35% a couple of months in - if the movie is even still showing at that point.

Furthermore, the DVD divisions of the big distributors are generating about 5x as much revenue per quarter than the theaterical divisions are.

Also, being that most theaters have multiple movies showing at the same time, I doubt they want to compete over price for viewing.

Why not? If it brings in more people, even if the average selling price is less, it could still be more profitable.

Re:If it's about movie price

[DavidTC]

The number of people who go see "Deuce Bigalow: European Gigolo" would almost certainly not increase by any significant amount if the ticket price was drastically reduced. I'd bet that most people would not see that movie even if they were paid the ticket price instead.

I might not see it, but I'd buy a ticket. In fact, I'd buy out the entire theater.

Re:If it's about movie price

[soupdevil]

it's about security. Right now, if you pay your $14 bucks, they don't really care what movie you see. But if Matrix 7 is $23, and Rugrats Go Mild is $4, then they have to police every person in the complex.

that's not "fair use"

[YesIAmAScript]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

Don't get me wrong, you do have a right to do what you say, for your own personal use.

But it is a complete misstatement to attribute this ability to the doctrine of "fair use". Fair Use covers situations where the reproduction is used commercially (or similarly), not just for personal use.

Perhaps the home taping act is what gives you this right? I'm not sure.

30Mil VS 2Bil I wounder who is going to win

[hotdrop]

A nice tidy sum of 30 mil seems hardly sufficent to stop the 2 billion dollar bootleg industry world wide. Especialy that circumventing the technology costs pennies on the dollar of the cost of making it.

One One Sure Way to Fight Piracy...

[cppwizard]

... is NEVER release it! If it can be viewed, listened to,or read, it can be copied. End of story.

Technology Vs. Lawsuits

[JamaisVu]

I have to say that at least this approach is fairer than just picking people arbitrarily and interfering with their life to set an example. Generally speaking, culture in most countries doesn't have a big taboo on copying media, even if it's a ertail product. If they at least try to outsmart the public they're playing on a level field within the bounds of common law.

My likkle opinion.

Re:Technology Vs. Lawsuits

[plasmacutter]

yeah.. but keep in mind they had to "Buy out" the "common law" by making it illegal for society to form a cohesively intelligent counter-force to their DRM.

yeah.. level playing field.

Consider total price...

[Otto]

For one person, paying $5-10 to see a flick isn't a big deal. It's a tad painful to fork over another $10 for a popcorn and soda, but it's not extremely bothersome.

For a family, two adults, say two children, you're looking at $30 in tickets, probably another $40-50 on popcorn and soda and such (inflated movie house prices). Suddenly a night at the movies for a family costs nearly $100 (considering gas prices).

Or they can rent a movie for $3-4 and watch it at home, on probably a better sound system and better picture quality, without having to deal with sticky floors and screaming infants (other people's, at least) and a bunch of bastards talking on their cell phones.

Is it any surprise that movie attendance number for families have dropped sharply?

It's not about the single ticket price. It's about the total cost of viewing. It's just way too high and out of reach for the average family these days.

Re:Consider total price...

[DavidTC]

What they need to do if they want to stop piracy, right now, is fix conditions in movie theaters. Bring back ushers, put at least one in each showing, and give them the authority to remove anyone who is acting stupid or brought infants.

Nowdays it's like they are operating with exactly four people...one at the ticket windows, one at the counter, one to take your ticket, and one hiding somewhere that pushes the button to start the movie. Heaven forbid if you need focus or the sound screws up.

Look, teenagers will work at movie places for extremely low wages if you let them see free movies and give them a free fountain drink. Well...stick them in uniform, give them some rules, and let them watch the movie. If anything stupid is going on, they have to deal with it, otherwise they can watch the movie.

Of course, this is completely impossible. Why?

The reason theaters don't have ushers is that they make a buck fifty on each person watching a movie, and movie studios get a percentage, so they can't just raise their prices...if they want to make an extra one dollar per person to pay for an usher, they have to raise prices like four dollars.

The obvious solution is a flat-rate. Give all theaters in an area the same movie for the same price per person, and let them charge more but have cheaper food, or charge more and have more service, or be dirt-cheap with crappy service and expensive food, like all theaters are currently.

Re:Consider total price...

[Mike Keester]

That's goddam right!

I took my wife, son, and a friend of his to see "Herbie Fully Loaded" (gag!). Stopped at the ATM and got $60 bucks out. Figured I was good on cash - nope!

$30 frikken dollars for tickets ("mattinee price"-whadev!) and $30+ for 2 goddamn large cokes, 2 large popcorns, and Twizzlers (for me).

Couldn't afford the Twizzlers - must be a lesson for life in there somewhere.

Screen was smaller than my big screen at home and the sound kept cutting out. I was so pissed I kept wishing for Herbie to get crushed in the junkyard scene or for Lindsay Lohan's boob to pop out at least!

Re:Consider total price...

[AussieVamp2]

Also, when I was one of those kid things, I am sure the child or student price was much less, relative to an adult. As in less than half, not the 2/3 or 3/4 or more that you can see now.

Anyone know why that happened? They start making lots of money from 13 year olds or something and put prices up?

Dear MPAA

[Junior Samples]

MPAA,

If it can be viewed, It can be copied. What part of that don't you understand?

Re:Dear MPAA

[computergeek1200]

I completely agree. I use this vulneribility when I want to copy protected content. Copy protection is completely useless.

BBC Walt Disney?

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

When did these two companies merge?

Re:BBC Walt Disney?

[ShyGuy91284]

You didn't hear? It's our new international overlord. BBC did it to connect with the younger crowd, and Disney did it so they could show more of there good side to the public by having an in in the media.

It is a waste of money

[jonfr]

This anti Piracy lab of theres is a big waste of money.

Re:Don't be rediculous

[budgenator]

A friend brought over a "camcordered" movie, the quality was pathetic, if the movie itseld wasn't pathetic, I would have rented a viewable copy.

I rather doubt that completely eliminating online downloading is going to even a dent in movie piracy. From what I've seen the majority of it is burnt DVDs physical passed amongst friends

HEY SHUT UP

[LesPaul75]

You're not supposed tell them that! Sheesh. Next, someone will tell the RIAA about cassette tapes!

Seriously, though, the MPAA and the RIAA are trying to stuff the genie back into the bottle. It just can't be done. The worst they can do is make life more difficult for their paying customers, which they do, regularly. CD copy protection, DVD region codes, Macrovision, iTunes DRM, DivX (snicker)... all of that garbage only pisses off the poor suckers who actually pay money for movies and music. Wonderful business model, isn't it?

They've already came out with that...

[svallarian]

Just came out too...Some movie called "Corpse Bride"

One thing not on the lab's agenda

[Todd Knarr]

There's one big idea I'll bet is on the lab's list of things not to research: "Make movies people want to watch, and distribute them the way customers want to get them at prices customers want to pay.".

Carrot or stick?

[flakac]

The easiest way to combat piracy is not coming up with new copy-protection schemes, but coming up with a decent business model that takes away the incentive and makes it easy to legally purchase / rent movies online. I know if I could subscribe to a service to download current TV series for say $20/month, I'd do it in a heartbeat. And I'd wager I'm not the only one.

i've seen this already

[circletimessquare]

i saw LotR:Return of the King in the Philippines and saw exactly what you just described: a serial number in the upper right hand corner throughout the entire movie

Re: who says?

[symbolic]

So, if ticket prices truly were based on costs

Who says movie tickets should be based on cost? Movie tickets should be no different than any other element in a free market - and that is, "what the market will bear." I think it's perfectly OK for people to point out that the current cost of a movie ticket is a major impetus behind seeking alternatives, but ultimately, the best thing one can do is take their money and WALK, leaving both the tickets, AND the movies behind. Let the MPAA sort it out.

Can't win

[HangingChad]

There's no way MPAA can win this way, trying to build a hack proof bunker around their product. In the age old arms race between warhead and bunker, always bet on warhead.

Ran into a perfect example of this concept in operation yesterday. Heard a song on a commercial that I liked. The company had a link to the site that had the song.

I would've had to download their special player and set up an account, just to download one song. Screw that, there's no way. If I could've gone somewhere and downloaded a high res copy for .50-.75 cents that would play on my Linux box, I would have done it. But all the hoops I'd have to go through, forget it.

Getting tough didn't work, getting tougher isn't going to work any better.

Re:Can't win

[StikyPad]

Not to nitpick but bunkers, especially underground, are virtually impenetrable. Cheyanne Mountain is one famous example. The tunnels of the Viet Cong are another. Even nukes don't leave very deep craters (relatively speaking). It takes orders of magnitude more powerful explosions to reach any meaningful depth.

My money is on the bunker any day.

Fortunately movies aren't anything like bunkers.

Bad movies

[jbrandv]

I haven't even ripped one in a long time. The last few movies I've rented were so bad I didn't even watch them all the way through let alone copy them. I don't go to the theatre any more since I can't stand spending $20 (for two) to watch a turd.

Only successful anti-piracy device

[xenoxaos]

Burn every film yet to be made???

Working on Troy

[thegnu]

I was a stand-in during the Mexican leg of shooting Troy (a Bad Movie, by the way), and there were a few things I noticed:

1. There were tons of people getting paid tons of money to squirt makeup on the extras.
2. More food got thrown out than I've even seen.
3. They ALL use more paper towels than they should. :-)
4. Nobody has any idea about anything in the natural world, and the powerful people don't like you unless you're afraid of them, which I was not.

So I tend to agree with the "Hollywood is greedy" thing. Because it's true. And the movie would NOT have been made if there weren't thousands of glory whore Little People for them to exploit.

It was sick and disgusting. People would do some photo doubling and all of a sudden think they were Jesus or something.

Re:Don't be rediculous

[Jherek Carnelian]

If the investment needs protecting to be financially viable in the future, then they should go nuts.

Why? Will the government pass a law to protect all the people paying ridiculously sky-high prices for houses today will be able to sell their houses in a financially viable fashion after the bubble bursts? The internet has burst the bubble of current movie industry, why should they get special protection and other industries don't?

If it thwarts you and your false-moral belief that you have some sort of God given right to free Olsen twins movies, well that's too bad for you.

Ever consider the possibibility that it is an immoral belief that information should be hoarded? And puh-lease, don't give me that claptrap about hoarding being the only way to assure that $300M blockbusters get made. That's just the way it has been done - before the internet changed the world, not the only way to do it.

Re:Don't be rediculous

[crabpeople]

"To use some of their own lame terminology, I want the magic of the movies to continue. I want them to spend $300 million on the next hyper-realistic super-imaginary world"

well sure thats your opinion i guess. Personally, I have never seen a well done movie that cost millions of dollars. maybe they exsist, but i am in mind that there is no correlation (except maybe an inverse one) between money and greatness. thats not what its about though. what you say, "i want the magic of movies to continue", is bizzare to me. do you some how believe that people will stop using film as a medium for art because someone isnt there to pay the bills? Especially with ease of distribution using the internet, viral marketing using the internet, and things like donations and micropayments. What it will succeded in doing however is kill the "for profit" movie. the movie that is dreamed up by executives in an office. the movie written, filmed and distributed with always the aim of making money. duce bigalo 2 is not art. its a symptom of the sickness of society and the willingness for corporations to do whatever it takes to extract money from people.

People need to make movies because they love making movies. you cant buy magic, and that is the point im opposing in your post. hope you dont invalidate it because i misspelled something, but i know thats just the way some people cope with ideas they do not like.

oh and lastly, i would not have experienced the amazing film lackawana blues without the miracle of file sharing. I would be very surprised with the director, if upon hearing that his movie had changed me, remarked something to the aeffect of, 'yeah but i didnt get no bank off that freeloader so fuck em'

thats not why artists make movies

No pirate will dare oppose the MPAA now

[tit4tat]

The more you tighten your grip, ... the more paying customers will slip through your fingers.

Re: who says?

[symbolic]

I don't get it. You still have producers and consumers. Producers offer their wares at a given price, and if you think it's too much, you wave them good-bye and look for something else. You might not get *the* song you're after, but the same applies to other market segments.

Re:Copyritght Cartels unveil new....

[/dev/trash]

Well not exactly. You CAN'T display it in a public forum. You CAN'T copy it and sell it to some guy on the street.

Newton's 3rd Law Applies here.

[Khyber]

Basically stated, for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

This means with whatever new technology we come out with to combat piracy, someone's going to successfully reverse-engineer it, or circumvent it altogether.

Why won't they just give it up?

No Hollywood movie makes a profit

[tepples]

AC: there has never ever been a movie that made a true profit

Red Flayer: Your post makes no sense, but I am interested in hearing what you have to say.

Believe these:

• Google: hollywood creative accounting
• Wikipedia: Hollywood accounting
• Hollywood Law CyberCenter: Less Than Zero
• Movie Money by Daniels, Leedy, and Sills (ISBN 1879505339)

Do you want people talking on cellphones?

[tepples]

2. Stop policing movie theatres with security guards and confiscating mobile phones as potential "recording equipment" and creating customer antipathy.

There's a legitimate reason to require customers on the theater's private property to deposit all phones in lockers: If it's in a locker, it can't ring or "chainsaw ring" in the screening rooms.

Re:Do you want people talking on cellphones?

[FlukeMeister]

Do you really advocate confiscation of personal property over treating people like adults and requesting that they turn their phones off?

To what extent should social policies override personal freedom and property rights?

Don't make the mistake of thinking that this is about private property and what a theatre is legally empowered to do, it's about an industry that shows increasing contempt towards its own customers - to the point of making an assumption of criminal behaviour.

More importantly, it's about how that industry is chasing a futile technological solution to a widespread sociological problem.

When will they learn:

[t35t0r]

If it can be viewed, then it can be pirated.

Later-run theaters vs. new-release DVD rentals

[tepples]

This might kill the movie theatres, especially the low cost 3rd run ones that don't show a movie until it has been out for 3 months, as they will be showing the movie while it is already out in DVD.

At $2.00 a ticket, a couple can see a movie for the same price as a new-release DVD rental. Moving the DVD release window closer to the theatrical release might kill the market for G or PG films in later-run theaters, where you might on average have a family of four, but not as much for PG-13 or R films, where singles or couples make up much of the audience.

World News Tonight

[tepples]

and Disney did it so they could show more of there good side to the public by having an in in the media.

Didn't Disney already have an "in" in the media?

The ultimate protection against piracy...

[3seas]

make people pay for it but then don't allow them access to it.

If you can see it, so can a camera.
If you can hear it, so can a mic.

I grew up with what is now considered low res. But even today the low res input devices are likely better than that...

So where can I pick up my 30 million USD?

Jamming camcorders

[Trejkaz]

Aren't they a little late to be researching anti-camera devices, when we just saw one a whole day ago?

Please start calling it 'anti fair-use'

[ronaldgminnich]

Words matter. When you call this stuff anti-piracy you're already surrendering the high ground to MPAA.

Please, if you're going to talk about this stuff, why not 'so-called anti-piracy', which is true, or, better yet, 'anti-fair-use'

thanks

ron

Re:Don't be rediculous

[ergo98]

hope you dont invalidate it because i misspelled something, but i know thats just the way some people cope with ideas they do not like

No, people usually do that with a strawman and caricatures.

*yawn*

[nurb432]

There is already a anti piracy technique that is about fool proof:

"just keep making crappy movies"

Seems to be working.

For an industry whining about profits...

[baronvonwalz]

They sure have a lot of money to throw out at ideas.

Re:Losses due to?

[typical]

You know, $30M to work on this problem is not actually that much.

This initiative may sound like some sort of new, high-tech-and-damaging-to-copyright-infringement-m ove, but the reality is that there has been vast amounts of money poured into research on ways to inhibit copyright infringement by many companies for a long, *long* time. Lots of these folks aren't even content providers, but would profit handsomely if their R&D division could produce a device/algorithm/whatever that could be used to stop piracy.

I remember speaking to one gentleman working in this area on watermarking. I pointed out some problems in his approach, and he sighed and said something along the lines of how everyone involved with working on copyright infringement knows that there isn't going to be any magic bullet. Companies will keep throwing money at this area, though, because of the potential sums of money involved.

The MPAA is mostly notable because they are willing to take more aggressive tactics than have been used in the past -- instead of simply defensive work, they have funded companies that disrupt P2P communication and the like. I still doubt very much that they are going to be able to release information in a viewable, audible form, yet keep that information from being replicated and spread.

Lord of War - Monday Night

[JoelMC]

So I went and saw Lord of War Monday night after hearing good reviews. Well I walked in with 2 friends after paying $9.50 each to see 2 other people in the 177 capacity thearte. I know they charge 50 cents more on weekends, but if they thought about it and charged...lets say $6 on Monday and Tuesday nights, they'd probably do better than 5 people at a 9:30 showing. From a business end, I'm shocked that places like Loews don't look to maximize their overall profits (in a positive way - not over pricing).

Re:Die MPAA

[grumpygrodyguy]

The only right movie producers have is to exclusively show first viewings in movie theaters. That's the only right they've ever had for the last 100 years since films were first made.

The fact that digitization is making it easier and easier to distribute this media after the initial showing in theatres is completely beyond the moral scope of these companies.

They quite simply found a lot of free cash in the 80s with cable TV distribution and VHS rentals. That free cash was never theirs by right in the first place, and they offered a viable distribution service back then...those times are over, and the right to reap all those free profits is being taken back by the real bosses in a free market, the customer.

Eat shit and die MPAA/RIAA

Re:Never mind Anti Piracy Lab...

[hendersj]

Amen to that. If they want to know how to combat piracy, they should try turning out content that's worth watching more than once in a blue moon....

Seriously, Fuck Cinemas.

[mrpostal]

Australia here

11.52 US, around $15 AU regular movie price.

which is insane, when I pay about the same price to OWN it on dvd and watch as many times as I like! (~$30 AU if i want it straight away) All that you're paying for is the privelege to watch it first, and to watch it in a theatre. Where you most often have to sit through them giving you a lecture on you "stealing" "their" movies, and about 10 minutes of advertising.

I have a decent home theatre setup (sans huge screen tv) at home, and most movies these days aren't good enough to warrant the money of seeing them at the cinema first and having to put up with all the aforementioned crap.

I think I've seen about 2 movies at the cinema this year, and I'm an avid movie goer. Those were Sin City and Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.

These days I just can't be bothered going to the cinema when a better experience is offered in my own home.

IE: make better movies and be more cost effective, then I might "go back" to the cinemas.

Re:Seriously, Fuck Cinemas.

[AussieVamp2]

Last month the cinemas actually lowered prices, I think due to a fairly significant slump in viewing, espoused as one reason, anyway.

Presumably they are back up that $15 mark now.

Which does look crappy next to say, Quickflix, where you can watch lots of movies for $30 a month, happily. Even more if you live in a city they have a distribution centre in.

I have definitely been to less movies this year, as well. Especially at those prices. Almost not worth buying one of those books of 10 tickets where you get tickets for about 10 bucks, rather than 15, as with the six month time limit, there is a large danger of not using them up, even with two people!

Good ol wisedom...

[BlackMesaLabs]

Build a better mousetrap, and you get a better mouse.

Does anyone know Zonk's Slashdot ID?

[Rocketship Underpant]

I have to add him to my foe list. :)

Re:Die MPAA

[John Biggabooty]

Avast ye scurvy dogs! Hollywood wants to make us all go belly up! First they're be making movies about us like Pirates Of The Carribean, and now they're wanting to keelhaul us. Shiver me timbers, maytee!

taco nailed it five years ago...

[hamsterspeed]

... on an episode of Geeks in Space, and I still quote it every single time this topic comes up in conversation:

"If you can decrypt it to play it, you can decrypt it to rip it."

Please let me know if there are any new developments. Meanwhile, I don't need an article to know that Hollywood's gonna continue to try anyway.

I find this hard to believe

[blueapples]

> There are thousands of new concepts

THOUSANDS of new concepts? Yeah right.

Matter of simple economics

[dark_requiem]

It's a common misconception that prices are based on production costs. It is not just the movie industry, all sellers attempt to set prices at the highest point the market will bear while maximizing profits (set it too high, and too few units sell, too low and you lose potential profits). Basically, the idea is to set the price based on how much your target customer wants the product and is able to pay, regardless of how much it cost to produce (obviously, if it costs more to produce than what can be gained by selling at a tollerable market price, it is unprofitable, and foolish to produce for any reasons other than artistic). If there weren't so many people willing to pay $8.50 or more for a ticket to a crappy movie, ticket prices generally would drop (since Hollywood movies, generally, fall into the crappy category) as studios and theaters attempted to attract more customers.

If you notice, most theaters specializing in indie flicks charge lower ticket prices than a mainstream theater in the same area (that has always been my observation, at any rate). However, they're not just "nicer" and less "corporate" than the major theaters (not for their pricing, anyway). They're trying to maximize profits, just like their mainstream breathren. It's just that they generally have a smaller market, and the ballance between price and attendence that maximizes their profits is lower.

This principle is very simple, and operates as follows: perhaps the mainstream theater could get more attendence if it dropped prices my $0.50, but the increased attendence wouldn't make up for the per-ticket profit loss. On the other hand, they could raise prices by $0.50, thereby increasing per-ticket profits, but the increase wouldn't compensate for the loss of attendence. The idea is to find a balance. Same principles apply for the indie theaters.

If American interrest in indie flicks suddenly surged, you'd see a corresponding price increase at your local indie theater.

For most indie movies, it's a matter of the theater deciding to carry a low-budget movie that will attrack fewer patrons at a lower price, vs. a big-budget Hollywood blockbuster that will draw in the crowds at a high price. Call it greed if you will, but these companies exist purely to make a profit (that being separate from the artistic goals of some of their employees). The only time a mainstream theater will show an indie flick is if they believe they can make at least as much in ticket profits as with any of the other movies they could potentially show in its place.

MOD PARENT UP

[lasindi]

In other words, if you don't like the price of something, take it illegally instead. It's not your fault for breaking the law, it's someone else's fault for pricing it wrong. After all, Slashdot posters have a god-given right to DEMAND how anyone else does business.

... If you don't like the price of something, don't buy it. ...

Precisely. This is exactly why I fail to understand why this is story is classified under "Your Rights Online." You might not like the prices of movies or music, but guess what? If you don't like the prices, or if you don't like that the RIAA or MPAA won't let you redistribute copies of their material, no one is forcing you to buy it. But just for fun, let's see what it would be like if we extended this idea of the dictator consumer to the rest of the economy:

Suppose you are looking for a new apartment to rent. You have already decided what you want. You want to install your hot tub in the living room, and you won't pay more than $50/mo. You set an appointment with the landlord of an apartment you are interested in. When you arrive, he/she shows you around the apartment.

Landlord: And here is the living room.
You: Now, if I moved in this weekend, would it be alright if I installed my hot tub on Sunday?
Landlord: What hot tub?
You: I want to install a hot tub. And what's this with this three digit monthly rent I see you hiding behind your back. You know that I demand no more than $50 per month.
Landlord: Uh, I'm sorry, but I can't allow you to install it. It violates my rental agreement. And I've already told you that the rent is $200/mo or best offer.
You: But it is my *right* to install a hot tub! I will be living in this living room, and living rooms must be free as in freedom! And how dare you charge a rent above my arbitrary price range!
Landlord: Actually, I own the living room because I invested in it, and if you want to live here you have to abide by the agreement. Otherwise, you'll have to go find another living room that is "free as in freedom."
You: Hah! You will be hearing shortly from the lawyers at the Living Room Frontier Foundation!

You storm out of the room, and submit a story to Slashdot under the Your Rights in the Hot Tub section, criticizing the Landlord for installing Power Rights Management (an electricity meter) in his apartments to make sure that people aren't installing power sucking devices like hot tubs.

landlord owner vs. landlord owners

[hany]

While I see (I hope) what you're trying to say and I even agree, I have to poke into your argument (I'm curious):

While we may and must call the deal between one drsquare and one landlord as "agreement" what do we call it when (almost) all the landlors form a "coalition" and all of them enforce very similar "rules" which are ... say ... more in favor of landlords?

With such "coalition" there is very small amount of better (for drsquare) offers from landlords which are not in "coalition" thus majority of drsquare-s of the world are unable to get "decent agreement".

IMO in such case it is logical that drsquare-s form their own "coalition" too and start "the war" with "the coalition of landlords". And wars tend to have quite different and sometimes bizzare-whatever rusel. And while the landlords started it ...

While I do not like wars I for sure will at least try to fight if someone attacks me. So maybe that's the rationale behing this "Your rights online" and "MPAA/RIAA/..." thing?

Re:landlord owner vs. landlord owners

[lasindi]

While I see (I hope) what you're trying to say and I even agree, I have to poke into your argument (I'm curious):

While we may and must call the deal between one drsquare and one landlord as "agreement" what do we call it when (almost) all the landlors form a "coalition" and all of them enforce very similar "rules" which are ... say ... more in favor of landlords?

I think we do basically agree, but I'll still argue that enforcing copyright is not an unethical activity. If a bunch of landlords got together and agreed to all simultaneously raise prices, that is price gouging, which is illegal. If the MPAA is facilitating price gouging, I'm all for prosecuting them, but I've yet to hear of this. From what we can tell, movie producers are charging prices as high as they can before they start to lose customers (i.e., maximizing profits), which is how the free, ungouged market is supposed to work.

While I do not like wars I for sure will at least try to fight if someone attacks me. So maybe that's the rationale behing this "Your rights online" and "MPAA/RIAA/..." thing?

Setting terms of use or prices that certain customers don't agree with is not an "attack" on these customers. Perhaps you and I don't care to spend money on movies or music; in that case, we simply don't. We might not have the music or movies that we want, but then again, the MPAA/RIAA don't have the money they want either. That's fair.

This new technology is merely designed to enforce the rules that MPAA customers have already agreed to. If you didn't agree to them (I didn't), don't worry about them.

The reason why DRM isn't a violation of YRO is that no one is forcing you to agree to it. If I draft an agreement stating that I will exchange one penny for you mowing my lawn for the rest of my life, is that an "attack" on you? No, because you will only be hurt by the agreement if you voluntarily agree to abide by it.

What *is* wrong is when consumers buy copyrighted material knowing full well that they're prohibited from redistributing it, and then they go off and blatantly violate the agreement. That is essentially reverse price gouging; the consumers simply agree amongst themselves to arbitrarily set the prices down to $0. Do you not oppose this attack on the recording/movie industry? Do you not think they should attempt to fight this attack?

Re:landlord owner vs. landlord owners

[hany]

Broadly we are in agreement.

So now we get to specific things:

This new technology is merely designed to enforce the rules that MPAA customers have already agreed to. If you didn't agree to them (I didn't), don't worry about them.

Article is about Motion Picture Laboratories - organization which is yet to come with some technology. So for now I have no reason to shut them down, I'm just suspicious.

Why I'm suspicious. Becuase all the fuss and buzz regarding DRM, copy-protection, ... which is comming from members of RIAA and MPAA and others which associate with them somehow.

I agree that it is wrong when someone agree to condisions of say DVD sale and then broke them by ripping the DVD and giving copies away (or, even worse, selling them).

But I do not like the proposed measures to solve that. Measures like DRM. Becuase measures like DRM:

1. are (or will be) paid even by me whether or not I'm buying stuff from music/movie companies - all it take is that I'm buying computers, recordable media, paying taxes (i.e. I'm merely living), ...
2. are assuming that I'm guilty of say that DVD copying without proving it - I'm fined no mater what

Of course above points are partialy hypotetical, because some measures are yet to come into my life.

But I'm alredy angry at those "consumers" which are broking the "agreements" and angry at those "companies" for coming up with such "inconvenient" measures which are misfiring even on other "not guilty" parties. And maybe I'm just more angry at those copanies though while they are the parties which are doing things that causing me trouble. And angry also at politicians and IT companies, which are also doing similar things on behalfe of helping entertainment industry.

And who's the primary source trouble of that trouble? Companies, because they are too greedy? Customers, because they are unvilling to respect the (mostly intelectual) work of others? Well, one study says one thing, another something opposite. Maybe the truth is somewehere in-between. And solutions should take that into account.

What the average Bangalorian doesn't know

[tritium6]

Knowing what a Bangalorian doesn't is an excellent place to start. Thats why I left my job programming for a large defense contractor to come here to Bangalore and see what the hubbub is all about. 6 months after starting a web development group here, I can tell what skills are necessary for American programmers to develop to ensure that they won't lose their jobs to outsourcing. And the solution isn't to "learn to live on $5 per day" as so many on slashdot seem to think. The solution is to figure out what strengths you can offer that someone in Bangalore can't. Then market yourself in those strengths. Simple, proven, effective.

Is it reasonable?

[^BR]

For an American programmer to be paid $60k/year for what an Indian is willing to do for $8k/year...

Choose your poison, you can't have it both ways...

Re:Is it reasonable?

[Maxo-Texas]

No it is not reasonable. That is why the salaries are evening out.
---
But for now they are lowering salaries and eliminating jobs while passing laws that we can't take advantage of the lower prices charged elsewhere.
---

Piracy isn't necessarily about the product/s

[Sylven_1969]

I think that most Piracy is done simply because the pirates enjoy it. they don't care that much about what they're stealing, they're just interested in the thrill of the act itself. Therefore regardless of what you do, short of making all media "Free as in Beer" there will always be people that are going to try to counter it, and they will find a way to do exactly that. For every action there is a reaction, for every lock there is a key and for every security measure there is a hacker with plenty of free time on their hands. they should use that 30m to research ways to make their product(s)cheaper and increase their margins so they can try to gain back some of the supposed money they are losing due to piracy.

MOD PARENT UP

[Lesson No. 25]

good point, i hadn't thought of that. that's a practical reason why different pricing for different movies wouldn't work out so well.

Re:Cheap porn-stupid comparison.

[Spunk]

like this?