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Unlock Your Doors With a Knock Code
Erica Campbell writes to tell us IsraCast is reporting that E-lock has developed a new kind of lock technology designed to open a door based on a "knock code." From the article: "This innovation is based on patented technology which uses a series of quick knocking sounds. The discrete mechanical knocks open the lock and are produced by a small device that can be carried by any authorized person. The device which opens the lock needs to touch the door (which can be made out of any material such as metal, wood, plastic or glass) to cause the lock mechanism to open. Since there is no keyhole or contact point on the door, this unique mechanism offers a significantly higher level of security then existing technology."
Yeah right. I think my PKI enabled smartcard offers a lot more security than this device.
No keyhole or lock either. The worst anyone could do is bash the reader but that ain't gonna open the door. And no, you can't just cross some wires and make it open. We're talking a full authentication session here (think ssh and similar).
Just a little micophone and you can tape the tapping : not on my door
At the edge of a cliff, a step forward is not always progress.
I'll just put a microphone next to the door and wait for the owner to arrive.
I can imagine "hacking" it by placing a small (Transparent or barely visible) microphone on the door and listening to the knocks of the authorized user, and then feeding this data to my "Custom knock device" which can generate any knock sequence.
Secure?
We all know that security though obscurity isn't any security at all... Which is how this lock works... But because anyone in audible distance can HEAR the code it isn't even secure...
... Double home-run for these guys...
So you have security though obscurity but without the obscurity?
And what happens in case of power failure? Or lock failure? Or when the key battery dies?
..two bits.
I love it! Keyless entry! Erm wait, what happens when the power and/or batteries for the electronic 'knock' system is dead? Hrm... guess I should start carrying AA batteries around.
...have had these for years.
If I could, I'd destroy you all.
1) Invent interesting tech
2) Develop product
3) ???
4) Profit!
Justin.
You're only jealous cos the little penguins are talking to me.
In fact the current bunch lock themselves as you walk away from them, unlock themselves when you get close, very unnerving, you have to give the key to someone else to check it's locked.
I don't really see how this is better than a swipe card or a rfid card for businesses. In the meantime I'll make do with a traditional mechanical key & lock.
Deleted
While it is an interesting new technology, the user will probably make a code that is too simple-1 or 3 knocks.
While you can't picklock a key locked door, I would imagine that guessing - or, even easier - listening - to the knock would be enough to be able to open the door.
This is the worst industrial design I've seen since the Cowboys left a hole in the roof of their stadium.
Other than that, it's a very good idea, although I've seen other keypad-locks before. This one is nice in that the key is portable and can be used for multiple doors with multiple authorization codes. It's this kind of thing that will quietly slip into our way of living and make us forget about carrying around huge keychains.
...if your battery goes dead. Of course, you can always pry the hood off the vehicle to recharge the battery, to open the doors. :)
Microsoft has just released their much anticipated hands-free cordless mouse. Warning, it may hurt a little at first.
Tape a minimicrophone to the bottom of the door, by the hinges. Pull a thin wire to the recorder hidden nearby - or just use one of the commercial short-range "bugs". You can attach it on top of the door, between the door and the frame to hide it better.
Replay the sequence by putting a speaker with a small metal bar attached to the membrane to produce actual knocks.
Anagram("United States of America") == "Dine out, taste a Mac, fries"
the article addresses most of the criticisms made here.
it does look like a solution in search of a problem though
Who's there?
Know we're is that dictionary?
Read article summary. Spot potential weakness. Think "this is the first thing that occur to people who hear about this, wonder if they might have done something to counter this potential weakness". Read article, get confirmation. Yes, they did think about this.
This seems more like a Rube Goldberg device. A complex device is needed on both ends to make this work. Most key lock systems (key and lock, rfid transmitter/receiver) are based on a simple device on one end that works a complex device. If you lose your 'Knockey' I imagine it is a lot more expensive to replace than a simple key or an RFID badge.
In other news... the same company have apparently invented a keyless car security system. Instead of requiring the owner to carry around heavy keys they are merely required to shout a secret password at the car in order to gain entry.
Don't *knock* it...
That is, until someone knocks...
Or what if it doesn't work like that? What happens when opportunity knocks and the door doesn't open?
First - the knock sequence changes with every knock-in. Secondly, it seems that the technology does not differ much from what is used in many modern cars, information baerer omitted, of course. Knocks instead of radio. There is increased security in fact, as a PIN is used to activate the device.
This said - the device itself looks pretty bulky and you would not want to walk around with it. Why the hell not use a transmitter instead of having to have a small battering ram in your pants pocket. I dont know about you, but that position has already been taken in my pants.
...one could easily imagine a foam "knocking pad" that would muffle the knock so that it was all but inaudible, while still transmitting enough vibration through the door so that the system could discern the knocks.
Look at me, I'm a jerk-ass! I'll just put a microphone next to the door and wait for the owner to arrive! AND I'LL OWN HIS SHIAT!!! HAHA!
$6.21 is the number of the beast before sales tax. Meh.
The other contactless technologies which I can think of are more easily "burnt-out" in a DoS attack: induction - generate a much larger field, optical - use a very strong light source (yes, I know, it is possible to defend against this with even more sophisticated technology, but that would be more expensive).
The next step up from knocking would be to knock holes in the door or blow it up or something, which anyway would work against the other solutions.
OTOH, I'm not about to invest in this company...
You could always call the Knocksmith...
Badaboom!
Yes, the obvious way of ramming it in did occur to me. But a more elegant brute force hack would be just go down the block rapping shave and a haircut on every door. A few of them are bound to respond.
First - the knock sequence changes with every knock-in. Secondly, it seems that the technology does not differ much from what is used in many modern cars, information baerer omitted, of course. Knocks instead of radio. There is increased security in fact, as a PIN is used to activate the device.
This said the device itself looks pretty bulky and you would not want to walk around with it. Why the hell not use a transmitter instead of having to have a small battering ram in your pants pocket. I dont know about you, but that position has already been taken in my pants.
$6.21 is the number of the beast before sales tax. Meh.
Ok, does the device have a hard disk? Will it run linux.
Why would you need that on a glass door? My foot is a better key.. What if the knocker shatters the glass?
Lemme get this straight... so the authorized person types in a code on the keypad to open this door. They can take it with them, right? So what happens if you see them typing in the code and then steal the device? I'm getting dizzy here.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
I have a padlock that's at least 20 years old, with no external holes, other than where the loop comes out of the main body. The key is a flat metal plate about an inch long, with a number of magnets built into it. Place it against the side of the lock and the loop can be pulled up. No batteries, but I imagine it could be rendered unopenable by a sufficiently hard whack with a hammer. But then again, so would most locks...
Electronic ignition, immobilisers, all of these toys mean the vehicle can be put out of action by an EMP that wouldn't even be noticed by an old all-mechanical Diesel truck or marine engine. I really wouldn't like a lighning strike to prevent my car from starting, and then find I couldn't get into the house because the central locking on that had failed.
Pining for the fjords
My brother in law once made a door bell which opened the door if the right ringing combination was givven in a specific rithm. Worked great but had a minor flaw that if the bell rang 30 seconds the door would open anyway. That wasn't a problem as nobody would have tried. The neighbors started hating him when he started using the flaw as a feature when he came home too drunk to be rithmical.
I hadn't the slightest objection to his spending his time planning massacres for the bourgeoisie... (P.G. Wodehouse)
Well known Muppet Animal is in demand again for the first time since the Muppet Show ended. His randomized syncopated rhythm makes him a perfect temporary replacement for a lost KnocKey...
What happens after the designated driver drops you off home?
"Bye dude...thanks and whatever...yeehaa..."
"Okie...so now what was the knock again...."
knockity, knockity, knoccck
Invalid entry. Please try again.
knock, knock-de-knock
Invalid entry. Please try again.
knock, knock, knock
Invalid entry. Please try again.
Kicks the door. Mutters all known curses.
Invalid entry. You have 2 more options before the system is locked for the next 12 hours.
With all the technological advancements we've seen in our lifetime, and preceding, why am I still walking around with precisely cut shards of metal tearing holes in my pocket just to make my way through my daily life? If I could carry only one that can be configured dynamically for each lock, that wouldn't be so bad.
The problem with this particular design is that the lock needs a power source.
Research shows that 67% of those who use the term "research shows", are just making shit up.
"shhh" - Door opens "shhh" - Door closes
-Dave
Exactly! Except in reality, you'd come back to where your fancy birthday card recorder used to be, because the owner, after unlocking the car, got into it and drove away, taking your birthday card recorder with them. heh...
The actual tech's not that simple though; as everyone has already pointed out here, the knock sequence changes each time, sort of like the way RSA SecureID cards work. And, it's still utterly useless.
You gotta look at the issue from a different angle. Too many people are looking at this like, "omg, 8192 bit random keys using a salted PIN provided by the user, with anti-hack technology built into the key!" (or whatever). Sure, it sounds cool. It sounds "unbreakable!"
1) Most decent, newer cars already use a random key to unlock the car, using standard RF. Recording someone using their key doesn't matter because the key changes each time. Then (at least on Mercedes), on top of the standard "random" RF code to unlock the doors, the key itself has an IR port on the end that interfaces with the ignition and does all kinds of verification or whatever.
People still steal these cars, and it appears to not be much of a problem. This new system will be no different, because smart people don't attack things from the "impossible" angle unless they have to. They attack from angles that are possible.
From the "brute force" angle: Current vehicles have anti-theft tech in the ignition, etc. Who cares about your key when a thief can just connect wire A and B, short circuit C, and start the car anyway. Sure, they'll need to smash a window or whatever - but who cares! It's not their car. Even if the knowledge to hotwire this system isn't out there right away, it will be eventually - there'l be some disgruntled worker willing to sell out the tech for the right price, or someone willing to reverse-engineer the tech for money, and from there it'll become common knowledge.
From the "high-end" angle: There will be dishonest employees at dealerships that have access to key-generation equipment. There will be AAA employees (or the equivalent) that will need to have access to this technology, for the stupid blonde that destroyed her key at 2am outside of the club, but needs to get into her car RIGHT NOW and can't wait until the dealership opens.
The high-end car thief already has access to connections that will program valid RF/IR keys. That type of car thief will just get access to the technology behind this new "knocking" stuff as well. I'm sure there's going to be "manufacturer" or "dealership" master keys for this system, for those "emergencies".
What I'm saying is, there will be enough people with access to the technology behind this, that some of them will be dishonest and it won't change much. It's just a new approach to the same issue, with the same problems.
I was told that I could listen to the radio at a reasonable volume from nine to eleven...
Directed at everyone who thinks they can put a mike on the door, take a recording, and be able to replay the sequence to get entry later; you apparently haven't heard of rolling keys. They're why a criminal can't unlock your car by replaying the radio signals your keyring remote sent.
Basically both the knocker and lock have a microcontroller inside which run a stream cipher and share the same key. When the reciever detects knocking it generates the correct code, and if it matches it unlocks and then increments the position in the cipher so the next knock will have to match the next code in the stream. Once used a code is useless.
Sounds like a pretty good idea to me anyway. I'm not sure why they don't use radio signals instead though, or a keypad on the wall, just for the sake of convenience.
// MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
Everybody will set it either to 'La cucaracha', 'Shave and a haircut' or 'SOS in Morse'
Exercise caution when modding this message up: the author acts like a jerk when his karma is excellent.
How would it deal with your neighbours stereo, or washing machine? Would you be locked out of the house when the Jones' do their undies?
Or maybe it guards a lab full of vibrating machinery...
Now, you could record this quite trivially, and while you couldn't use it to open the same door twice, what about the second door? Would it know that?
You can remotely record *and* replay with the right kit, or just mangle the knocks of anything trying to enter.
Why is this ID stuff so difficult?
What I want, is an RFID watch *strap* (I wanna choose the watch, ta) that takes a PIN of your choice, and a door handle that uses the force of turning to generate the power for the RFID signal. No batteries/external power, ta.
Or better, standardise an RFID pouch on the inside of watch straps and mass produce disposable RFID chips you program once with whatever you like via a handheld type-pad. Everyone wins.
Naturally the Feds will bug the type-pads, but hey ho.
Anyone would think this was difficult!!
Would get in the chamber door...
Moderation in All Things... Especially Moderation - gurutc
So how did you crack the new knocking lock?
...so you spent millions of cpu hours cracking the code?
I used a traditional brute force entry method...
No my fist cracked the door in a more literal sense.
Of course there are always BACKDOOR attacks
In Soviet Russia, Door Knocks You!
O RLY
please type the word in this image: subdue random letters - if you are visually impaired, please email us at pater@slashdot.org
#hostfile 0.0.0.0 primidi.com 0.0.0.0 www.primidi.com 0.0.0.0 radio.weblogs.com
You can measure where it is knocked and with what strength.
....
...
Also the distance and height of the person is measurable
And you can think many more parameters
It's just so nice and jingly.
Moderation in All Things... Especially Moderation - gurutc
Based on a series of numeric knocks can seem secure, but how succeptible is this to snooping?
What if this relied on a RSA SecureID tag for its number sequence? Though it could be more secure if the RSA fob were a separate device and you were required to enter the number; however, convenience would embed the RSA inside the unlocker knocker and not require manual entry.
Hey, Slashdot?? What the blazes is wrong with you people? Where is the obligatory Mission Impossible reference? "Door opens with NOC code".
WILL SOMEONE PLEASE GET ON THE BALL!
Why not just put a Solar-rechargeable sensor that sets a time limit on engagement of the lock cylinders that only the use of a true key could meet?
Moderation in All Things... Especially Moderation - gurutc
yeah, because the one thing I want to worry about when stumbling home at 4am on a friday night, drunk as a skunk, is the accuracy of my white-boy rhythm. I mean, keys are hard enough to manipulate with a belly full o' the irish; i can't imagine how awful this'd be. no. wait. Actually, I can - i foresee many a night spent passed out against my overly secure apartment door. A flying car'd be so much cooler.
And yet again Windows subpar security is the weak point. If an intruder wants in, the easiest entry point is a window.
Locks keep honest people out.
Locks are an interesting challenge to dishonest people.
Destructive people don't notice locks.
I think I can claim prior art. My mum would only open the door when we got home from school if we gave a "special nock", she did not like door-to-door sales people
What you need is a sequences of buzzes from the door, responded to by knocks based on a shared secret. Oh wait, we've reinvented the car door remote blipper.
STUPID STUPID STUPID PEOPLE.
Given that the door knocker needs a microprocessor and battery, and the door lock needs a microprocessor and battery, why not use an existing car RFID remote lock design (costing $0.50)? What a waste of patent fees.
K.
"The discrete mechanical knocks open the lock and are produced by a small device that can be carried by any authorized person. ....Since there is no keyhole or contact point on the door, this unique mechanism offers a significantly higher level of security then existing technology.""
[1] what keeps an unauthorized person from usinging this device? if is biometric or combination coded, why not just put those features in the door?
[2] the key is the weak point of any keyed system. The most that typical attackers can do to a well designed lock if they dont have the key is brute force.
SLASHDOT: news for people who can't concentrate on work or have no life at all and got tired of yelling back at the TV.
it's impossible to have a second key then without adding a full second set of locking memory to the lock itself. A lock that has to know how many keys to it exist. rich.
How does this article (that doesn't even address the security issue) get on main page and stuff that really matters, like people getting screwed over by uncovering that voting machines malfunctioned doesn't? O tempora, o mores..
And when you gaze long enough into the code, the code will also gaze into you.
Am I the only one here that actually read the flippin article?
It says:
"Even more importantly, if an unauthorized person tries to record the knocking sequence and play it back in order to open the door, the lock will not open since the knocking sequence changes every time"
So 'knobs' to your peasant microphone lunacy.
If article.read = 1 then post.article
Else keep.it.buttoned
End If
Stanford researchers patent door with secret handshake function to ensure frat houses remain secure against non fraternity members. Apparently comes with electric shock hand buzzer defense mechanism if handshake is incorrect.
When the posters fear their moderators, there is tyranny; when the moderators fears the posters, there is liberty.
There's already a device that can open doors with a single knock. It's called C4.
hey, I heard of this before!
It's the Clapper from the 80's reborn for the new millenium.
I wonder if the idea keyless entry remotes came from those emergency assist beepers that old people would wear around their necks. only one big button to press as they yell "I've fallen and I can't get up!
I just hope this thing has a catchy jingle too. I'll be singing "Clap on. *clap clap* Clap off *clap clap* the clapper" all day
I think this has more chance of making it into my house - http://www.centralock.com/centralock2003/homeowner /whatis/whatiscentralock.php
(a) keep out little kids
(b) keep out the deaf
(c) keep out people with no hands/knuckles?
(d) keep out lock pickers until they figure out how it works
that's all i can come up with
Why not have one of those fingerprint readers replace the door bell.
if fingerprint_match() then
unlock_door()
else
sound_bell()
fi
Abnormal scenarios:
1. What about power outage?
use your key
2. I am so drunk my fingerprints don't work, my dog ate my fingers, and other excuses?
a. The doorbell will ring
b. use your key
Will become the new "admin/1234."
Can my front door now have a 'backdoor'?
Challenge-response authentication involving knocking? Is this anything like one of those knock-knock jokes? :-)
This idea is great.
- Floating code technology is well developed (Microchip KeyLock etc., most remote car openers use this for years).
-> Replay attack is nearly useles
-- it is quite strange that all keypad devices are the same. But maybe using device-dependent starting sequence for floating code is enough for security
- Instalation is extremely simple - no antenas, no keyholes, no IR receivers, simply mount lock on door (from inside!)
LOL...beat me to it! I was thinking the same thing. You must be as old as I am to remember that one ;)
Ok people here we go.. RTFA Even more importantly, if an unauthorized person tries to record the knocking sequence and play it back in order to open the door, the lock will not open since the knocking sequence changes every time. Straight from TFA... I just invalidated at least a dozen posts about how to record this, how it is only security through obscurity without the obscurity, and a few dumb jokes. Not that I think these things are a good idea, but for the love of god read the thing before you make stupid 'informed' comments. Yes I know...this is slashdot
The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
Does their patented lock run Knockd? http://packages.debian.org/unstable/net/knockd
Another advantage of the technology is that all 'KnocKeys' are the same, if the 'KnocKey' is lost or stolen, it is possible to simply buy another 'KnocKey' and enter your personal code. Both the 'KnocKey' and the lock consume fairly little energy and operate using Lithium ion batteries which can last a very long time.
They mention that the code changes in a rolling code kind of way then they mention the above. This leads me to believe it has th same setup as garage door openers do which is if the rolling code stops working, send the initial code and it unlocks. HUGE security hole there.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Can it stop a swift kick better than a regular deadbolt?
In other news, woodpeckers have suddenly become a very popular pet. Nobody is sure why there is a sudden surge in popularity of the birds, but a large percentage of the new owners seem to be locksmiths and reformed cat burglars.
I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.
If the lock and key need to "know" each other's sequences, what happens if I activate the key without the door? They are out of sync then?
It seems to me that IsraCast is primarily concerned with getting money from investors. Some of the schemes sound good to someone with little technical knowledge, but are foolish to someone who knows how things work.
Notice that the IsraCast web page referenced in the Slashdot story is titled "Preview".
I wrote a summary of what in my opinion was IsraCast-promoted fraud: IsraCast: Involved in fraud?. It was modded down to -1 because I criticized the behavior of some Israelis. However, in my opinion that criticism was justified because IsraCast also does public relations for radical Jewish causes. For example, Paul Wolfowitz, a Jew, did the initial planning for the U.S. government's invasion of Iraq. Israelis were worried by Saddam Hussein and wanted someone else to pay for their security. Fifteen of the 9/11 attackers were Saudi. When Saudis attack invade Iraq?
Lately, Slashdot regularly posts IsraCast P.R. releases.
--
Before, Saddam got Iraq oil profits & paid part to kill Iraqis. Now a few Americans share Iraq oil profits, & U.S. citizens pay to kill Iraqis. Improvement?
That's great until you lose the little device, or my kid unlocks the door by accidently puonding out the right sequence.
I carry keys around like everyone does, but it's not my freaking door key that causes the problems, it's the freaking keys for my cars. My "regular" car is a Liberty, so I carry a big fatty key for that plus a remote. My Ram pickup has this HUGE key with a remote built in, and my RAV4 has another fatty key that completes the mess I carry around every day. Screw the door key, it's this little dinky thing that takes up almost no room.
Invent something that takes care of that mess for me and I'll buy it. 'Till then, this invention is useless for me. It's DEAD to me, I tell you!
- real hackers don't have sigs -
Will some who is playing a pinball game be able to unlock it?
This gives a more accurate meaning to the term 'brute force attack'.
Defining Statistics and Social Research
I wonder how vulnerable to other environmental sounds the locks might be? It might be fun to play random unlock codes on one of those big, thumping car stereos and go 'war unlocking', much like the garage-door drive-bys of yore.
Good. Now someone can steal my "key" with a parabolic mic. No need to rough me up and steal a physical key.
ShoutingMan.com
Sounds like port knocking to me. Hopefully they don't have a patent on this.
Help! I'm a slashdot refugee.
Come on... where are the /. knock-knock jokes??
There are locks comming on the market now that use essentially the same keyless entry technology as cars have had for years. (better still would be if they can combine it so that when you unlock the door, the front lights come on automatically)
There are others that work on combination locks (doors on commercial premises have had these for years too)
... when all they need to do is knock!
"Dave's not here, man."
It's called taplock (http://www.taplock.com./
Great for when you lock the keys inside the car, along with the kids and your melting groceries. Also good if you go diving and want to leave your keys behind.
Got mine cheaper at 12voltshop.com
Does "know" sound like "now" and "we're" sound like "where" in an American accent?
Interesting if so - in English (England) pronunciation, "know" has a long "oh" sound, rhyming with "blow", whereas "now" as an "ou" sound, rhyming with "plough". Also "we're" is pronounced the same as "weir" (as in canal/river; two syllables, we-yr) whereas "where" rhymes with "bear" (one syllable). Plus some Englishmen pronounce "where" with the soft "h" sound just audible.
Andrew Oakley - www.aoakley.com
... I call it 'Mom'.
My other post is a First.
With a changing code, there is always a change of the two devices getting out of synch.
These will most likely include some method to resynch the two, like cycling garage door openers. Planes flying overhead can trigger garage door openers...
Could a rumbling garbage truck accidentally trigger my door.
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
quarter eighth eighth
;)
quarter quarter
quarter quarter
That has to be the password "God" in Knock
What if someone sees (let alone hears) you knocking your door? How about
your visitor accidently knocking your door in a pattern which happens to be your
knock code?
Reminds me of a knock-knock joke my three year old daughter told me the other day.
Knock-knock
Who's there?
Olive
Olive who?
Olive YOU! (giggle) She's a nut...
...who knows, it may be useful. So don't knock it.
Or, no, wait...do knock it.
Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
But what about my fake rock? What am I supposed to do with it now?
So as a rough guess, you have several minutes during which at least three codes will work, maybe more.
Since everybody is having fun taking cheap shots against the technology and saying "nothing new", including you, I'm feel that it's appropriate to return the favor.
Your lock is vulnerable to:
1. Bolt cutter
2. LN2 and hammer
3. Dremel with a diamond saw
4. More inventive things listed by those who care to invest the time.
Why? Because it has an external loop, and it's in a known location.
This device eliminates both those disadvantages, and as is typical, introduces a few disadvantages of its own. There's no external interface to attack, and more importantly, you don't necessarily know where the locking device is located because sound is transmitted throughout the door. It makes it hard to attack the lock with a pick, a drill, a cutter, a dewar of coolant, etc. when the only thing that you see is a blank door face.
So it is, in fact, something new. The question is, is it any better in practice.
There seems to be no backup way of opening this lock.
What if the firmware crashes in it. If the space it locks does not have an alternate means of entry, they couldn't even pull the hinges off to get at the lock. They'd need a fire axe or a jaws of life to get in again.
All that would have to be done to wedge the door is jam the sonic 'knock' channel. It seems that it would be fairly easy to make a device that sent pseudo random knocks into the door on a constant basis. That would overlap if any knock code sent into the door by a real code box.
The door would not open.
Hide it on the inside of the door, with a timer to activate it, and then you have a veto on that door ever unlocking again from the outside.
The lock would be effectively glued.
-- 3 events that reshaped the world in the 20th century: WW1, WW2, and WWW
I know it's a lot to ask, but...
argumentum ad fallacium: Fallacy of defining a fallacy which allows one to dismiss the argument in question.
Lock picker becomes ... lock ticker. LOL
-- okki nothing more to say
"Knock three times...."
"Open Sesame!"
The batteries run out?
this unique mechanism offers a significantly higher level of security then existing technology.
Don't they mean "a signifigantly higher level of obscurity"?
The knocking security system is really very simple. It works by having the door be in contact with a small mechanical device that any authorized user could carry. This device transmits a code to the door by using a series of mechanical "knocks." When this code is properly recieved, the door opens. It requies that the small mechanical device is in contact with the door, so that it works.
Why is mechanical knocking a leap forward in technology?
Google: "All your data are belong to us."
How is this not from the shave-and-a-haircut department? :)
The problem that comes to mind is if this is based on a set of vibrations any microphone that is sufficiently sensitive can probably get the exact combination of my key. If this becomes at all common then it would be trivial for any "locksmith" to make a new key based on these vibrations.
I've been doing this for a while now... without anything to carry around with me. It's called a Taplock (I think it cost me $50 or so) and I use it to unlock the doors (or open my trunk) in my Miata.
It works by me simply tapping (kocking) 3 times on the side of the car where the gas filler is. That "wakes it up" then I can tap in my code... one code for the door and another code for the trunk. It works perfectly and nothing is visible outside to let anyone know it's there.
Bill
It's my Sig and you can't have it. Mine! All Mine!
Okay, so all these devices are the same, and they require you to enter a "personal code" in order to generate a door-knock. This suggests to me that the weak point in the system is not the pattern of knocks, but rather the user keeping his code a secret.
This idea is the kind of thing only an egghead trying to justify his expensive research would even propose. The "invention" works like this. You carry a "key". They key activates a knocking sequence. A reader listens for the knocking sequence, checks for a match, and opens if there is one. I've got a brilliant idea:
CUT OUT THE MIDDLEMAN.
Why not just eliminate the potential for intercepting a knock by having the key directly access the reader. OH!!! That's right. Because that technology already exists, and proposing its use won't get you on the front page of slashdot. Never mind that it's actually more useful.
Rank my idea: http://www.sinceslicedbread.com/node/531
Were's the door that uses a secret handshake?
http://www.coderoshi.com/
Knock, knock.
Who's there?
Your neighbor who just broke into your house...
This sig donated to Pater. Long live
i always give ppl the advise to make shure that they have security measures that are better and different from their neighours.
;)
in this case it is deffinitly different.
_c.
The door then responds: tat tat
What sound will it make if she already has knockers?
There is technology already available (and cheap) that allows you to knock on your car windsheild and unlock your doors in case of an emergency.
Sequence recognizer for four digits plus a set of dip switches to program.
Simple!
There is no need to study the article so seriously.
Why would someone design a sophisticated electronic device with an unnecessarily-archaic interface such as a knock at the door?
Answer: To dishonestly draw interest from those who don't understand technology.
I have to knock even though I have the key?
Since there is no keyhole or contact point on the door, this unique mechanism offers a significantly higher level of security then existing technology.
Then is not a comparative, it's a conditional. It's than that needs to be used in its place.
*shakes head*
Shave and a haircut...Two bits
I know, I know, that is not what they meant by a knock code.
Adventure City Tours
There are a bunch of devices for your car that let you unlock it by tapping out a code on the side of the car.
Here is the first one that came up in google:
http://aggeggi.com/?action=view&id=671978
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
And the advantage over RFID passcards is... what?
FTA: the door (which can be made out of any material such as metal, wood, plastic or glass)
Can't wait to try overclocking the knocking device!
Would be cool if you could make it shatter the glass door. That should surprise the unsuspecting user!
I gotta call absolute, laughable bullshit on this claim. This is just another form of "something you have" security. This is no more secure than a prox card reader-- which can also be installed "cleanly" by mounting the reader head behind the drywall, stucco, or wood of the wall next to the door. In fact, it's arguably less secure. Copying a prox card is not impossible, but practically so. Building a device that can record and repeat a series of "pings" from a sonic transducer, that's comparatively easy.
This would be a cool hack if you could actually knock the code on the door with your knuckles; but since it requires a battery powered box that you have to touch physically to the door, I'm sorry, you might as well use a prox card that you merely wave near the door and never have to deal with a dead battery.
Conclusion: the Empire squashes the Federation like a bug. Accept it.
Knocking via networks. See this article.
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
I'm pretty sure you have gain access to second level mage spells to use knock. Maybe the door is enchanted?
To all the naysayers and would-be naysayers, I say:
don't knock it 'til you try it.
Shave and a haircut. Either my door would be very vulnerable to intruders who are familiar with Bugs Bunny, or I would be locked out all the time!
Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
You put a lock on a door that you can't guard all the time. If you can't guard it all the time, people can try to defeat the lock when (they hope) the door isn't being used. Say somebody discovers that your lock is sound-controlled. Then, they plant a sound recorder anywhere near the doorframe -- or point a laser at any point on the door.
With a metal key, it's hard to take a picture of somebody's key as they're lifting it to unlock a door. With a sound key, that process is trivial. Making a knocking device would be ridiculously simple. With my rudimentary knowledge of electronics, I'm confident that I could defeat this lock with less than 2 hours of work.
This is about the clunkiest system I've ever seen. Keycards would be much easier.
-- these are only opinions and they might not be mine.
It is sad that 'writers' do not have mastery of the language in which they write in.
http://www.rayn.net . Funny. Stuff.
Erica Campbell... isn't she a porn star?
...installing snort in your front yard...
ascii art
What we're talking about is a mechanical device to induce vibrations in a medium that another mechanical device can detect. While it's an interesting thought, it is not meaningfully different than an RF code with an RF receiver attached to the lock, and it's invariably going to be less reliable and more subject to wear and tear because of the effort to move the larger mechanical parts.
I'd have to label this one "interesting, but ultimately pointless".
Wake up - the future is arriving faster than you think.
...albeit grammatically incorrect. (Prepositional phrases start with a preposition. They don't end with one -- although simply ending one with a preposition is far less jarring than bookending the phrase with prepositions. The former sounds lazy or colloquial; the latter, uneducated and pretentious.)
Did anyone else picture Roger Rabbit bursting through their front door when they knock it?
This signature is far too complex to have been created by chance.
This sounds like a basic one-time password device (SecurID or similar) using sound to transmit the password. Everything except those portions of claims referring to the transmission mechanism should be attackable based on that prior art, and that doesn't leave much to attack on grounds of obviousness.
How long until someone comes up with a dacking doorking??? (door hacking??) version of the blue/red/black box. It's phone hacking with the tape recorder all over again, only this time i guess you need a knocker and lots of time to be bored.
I've already started....
#include "OpenSesame.h"
#include "AllYourBase.h"
#include "LeverArm.h"
You want a "reinforced strike plate", with screws long enough to transmit force to the structural framing around the door. Do that before you add another deadbolt.
Typically, locks like this are supposed to be adding convenience more than security. Here they have done niether.
I go from having to carry a small, lightweight key to a larger, heavier one. I have to enter a pin on the key. This takes two hands probably, while I'm carrying who knows what. Then, I have to hold the key up to the door for some time. They've added steps, required a second hand, and made what I carry heavier. Also, they key has active circuitry, so I probably have to leave it with my towel if I want to go swimming (I don't like this fact about modern car keys also)
Why do I say it isn't any more secure? They seem to be confusing a basic priciple of increasing security. They've managed to create a system which uses two authentications, what you have, and what you know. This is good, but then they tied the two together, eliminating the benefit. The what you have is the key, the what you know is the pin. The place they went wrong is putting the "what you know" into the "what you have". In the end, it comes back down to "what you have" (a knocking key that is activated). The only minor way they may have increased security is by hiding the mechanical interface, assuming you don't keep that as a backup.
A gripe probably lost on /. read0rz, but:
This unique mechanism offers a significantly higher level of security then existing technology.
s/then/than/
Returned Peace Corps IT Volunteer
then you are suddenly unable to enter your own home because of the electronic gizmo's screwage.
at least i won't witness the time when a toilet cistern will have more processing power than my trusty ol' 586.
Shave and a hair cut - two bits!
I couldn't pass this one up.
...for this lock would be Mike Portnoy. :)
...involves my foot through your door.
If it was something other than sound it might be harder. In fact, if it sent a 20,000 volt electric pulse it would probably work on even nonconductive doors, and it could double as a taser!
A shave and a haircut
For two bits
"brxref
Working in bankruptcy, I've had the opportunity to break into a larger number of buildings and rooms. The reality is that locks are for honest people. Short of a vault, the vast majority of door lock mechanisms can be defeated with a crowbar, bolt cutters, or leverage bar. Our arsenal includes:
* 25 lb, 66" pinch point crowbar
* 44" bolt cutters
* Standard crowbar
The pinch point crowbar has a knock-knock that no door can resist.
Of course the manufacturers will set the default code in the factory: "Shave and a haircut, two bits!"
If this technology catches on, the next think you know there will be fake knockers all over the place.
I always appreciate a fresh take on things. "Thinking outside of the box" is good, however, this doesn't seem very practical to me. There's nothing that this device does that other technologies couldn't handle more effectively.
For one, that "KnocKey" is huge. It's like carrying a deck of playing cards in your pocket. Granted, you'd only have to carry one, but that's only for the doors equipped with the system. Then, of course, you'll have to carry the "Knockerator" for the competing brand of doors, and an infra-red transmitter for yet another brand of security doors that will hit the market in about 6 months. Plus, you'll still have to schlep around regular keys. All this for the "increased security" of not having a keyhole.
Other ideas:
1. RFID - MUCH smaller, still no keyhole, could be universally adaptable if the vendors all agreed on a standard. Probably more secure, and can transmit a 256-bit rolling security code much more efficiently than and knocking mechanism.
2. Biometrics - Nothing to lose, forget, get stolen or water-logged. Lots of options. (Voice print, finger print, iris scan, just to name a few.)
3. Keypad entry - Again, nothing material to lose. (although you could forget) Already commonly in use. Could be cumbersome if you had to remember many different passcodes.
This is all in 10 minutes of brainstorming, and I am not even a remotely related field. Just imagine if I worked for a lock company and got paid to sit around and think of ideas all day. I can't think of a single reason that this knocker is any better than the three ideas above. It seems like a novelty, and not really practical. Still, kudos to the designers for thinking outside the box. Just because a problem has been solved doesn't mean we should stop thinking about it. Still, I don't know if it was a wise product to bring to market. I guess we'll see.
-Arthur
Cave ne ante ullas catapultas ambules
Basically, what we have here is an OTP authentication mechanism (One Time Password, like SecurID) that uses a "knocking" transport mechanism instead of a "RADIUS/IP" (or whatever) mechanism.
From a security standpoint, it doesn't matter if this is via knocking, IR, RF, electrical contact, or a keypad. The reason "knocking" is interesting here is that it would be cheaper to implement than most other mechanisms.
This is an economics article, not a security article.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
My immediate reaction upon reading the headline was "Why not radio signals / infrared / optical recognition".. the beauty of the knock system is that you can't be sitting 50 feet away with a scanner to sniff the airwaves, you really have to make physical contact with the door. That restricts eavesdropping quite dramatically. You might be able to detect vibrations on the adjacent walls, but then you get resonance/echo/thump issues that effectively garble the code.
It's not perfect, but it's certainly clever. When you're visiting a secret club, you don't yell "Jim Sent Me" from 50 feet away where everyone can hear, you rap on the door and stealthily answer the doorman's challenge, just like this little device does.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
I'd imagine its much easier to record a tapping sound from several feet away, or video someone doing the knock than it would be to snag a copy of the key or pick the lock.
:-)
To add the additional safety of handshaking before sending encrypted paaswords, you could add a little soundproof hold one could stick their arm in and securely knock inside. This adds the ability to handcuff and restrain false knockers at high security installations. Just hope somebody comes around to unlock ya before you starve.
Cwm, fjord-bank glyphs vext quiz
I'll be sleeping in the hallway...
THE MAGIC WORDS ARE SQUEAMISH OSSIFRAGE
If you can't even be bothered to RTFA before responding, at least RTF summary.
My knocking code is the drum solo from In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida.
Everyone knows that a good knocker will open all sorts of doors. Actually, usually 2 are required.
If someone gives the wrong knock, the door opens and Leon the Professional pops out of the ceiling to fill their bodies will lead.
With a standard key, I cannot "hear" its configuration from the next room or from down the hall.
It's only a significant improvement if the old lock was the weakest point.
Kicking in the door, unlocked / poorly locked windows (or just a brick), carding the door, open skylights
At a guess, I'd say windows, not doors are the weakest physical link in security, with "leaving the back door unlocked" a close second.
-- Should you trust authority without question?
Then some guy in a low rider will be driving by and suddenly all your doors will unlock. I know know if I like sound based security.
As for rewinds, I just had a local company make me a version of my standard alternator designed for higher output at low revs. As far as they're concerned, it's just a bit more copper squeezed in and a higher rated regulator, not a problem as the original was a bit under specced for the case size. Cost $80 versus $240 for a new high rated Bosch.
Pining for the fjords
the word "cracker" Hey you - stop knocking on my car!
Ok so does this new-fangled high-fuluent thing come with hole for your key ring? Cause if you lost it, there's not figuring out the knock, it's electronic. And does the door lock behind you from the inside too? So when you're home, someone knocks at the door and you have to get out your lil electronic key thing and hold it to the door. Not very practical, I think. And supposed you have you, your spouse, and 5 kids. You have to get one of these things made for everyone. Prolly a lot more expensive than cutting a key.
=*^.^*=
1.) The code is long enough for there to be billions of combinations.
2.) The device that knocks is as small or smaller than a finger.
3.) The device that knocks can be copied easily with the right equipment, or make it so that the code is stored on a chip which can be moved among different knocking devices.
4.) The device that knocks must not cost more than $20. Optimally, $4.99 would be a good price to compete with the key.
Windows has more viruses because linux has more virus coders.
[ a knock at the door ]
Woman #2: [ appoaches the door ] Yes?
Land Shark: [ muffled voice ] Mrs. Arlsbergerhh??
Woman #2: Who?
Land Shark: [ muffled voice ] Mrs. Johnannesburrrr??
Woman #2: Who is it?
Land Shark: [ muffled voice ] Flowers.
Woman #2: Flowers? From whom?
Land Shark: [ muffled voice ] Plumber, ma'am..
Woman #2: I don't need a plumber. You're that clever shark, aren't you?
Land Shark: [ muffled voice ] Candygram.
Woman #2: Candygram, my foot! Get out of here before I call the proper authorities. You're the shark, and you know it.
Land Shark: [ muffled voice ] I'm only a dolphin, ma'am..
Woman #2: A dolphin? Well.. okay..
[ she opens the door, as the shark pulls her screaming into the hallway ]
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
I can just see the warnings on the package now:
:)
WARNING! If you're using Knock-Secure, please be sure to choose an orginal knock sequence. We strongly recommend against "Shave and a Haircut, Two Bits!".
It would be like the master password for all doors.
-Peter
No reason there should be. From TFA (which seems to be even more underread than usual on this one): "all 'KnocKeys' are the same". So losing your key is a non-event; it's losing your PIN that would cause a problem.
Three codes (or even a few dozen) out of billions of possibilities is not significantly less secure than one.
"there's nothing more useless than a lock with a voiceprint" (Dr Who) or perhaps not.
Squirrel!
Ever hear of a little thing called Morse code?
Oooh, how about dialing digits using pulses? But I suppose those pulses are more consistent. Varying pulses are *completely* different.
And this will work when the person who knows the code is tired? Drunk? Has just lost a finger in a car-door accident so their knocking pattern and hand-mass is out of whack? And if it's detuned enough to cover the range of 'correct' possibilities, will the bitrate remain high enough to provide as much security as a physical key, while being able to be opened as fast as using a key?
the above is way cooler and more useful than the wacky knobless doors!
So, with no access from the outside, which is preferred?
1. default locked when the batteries die
2. default unlocked when the batteries die
Neither alternative seems very good.
You're not getting it-- the three codes are allowed during that fw minutes. So you can sneak in right after the validated guy.
Oh, you mean if he's hiding in the bushes waiting for them to come back? I wouldn't worry too much about that. Anybody who's professional enough to crack one of these things is going to want to break in when nobody's around. Obviously it's the stuff he's after, not you, otherwise he would just pounce as soon as you opened the door.
They say it's patented. What about the clapper isn't that prior art.
So, in other words, this guy has invented a device to replicate what the Freemasons have used in their secret rituals for hundreds of years.
Novel.
--
From West to East and back again.