PS3 - Lateness With Linux?

ZombieRoboNinja writes "The New York Times is reporting that Sony's press conference has confirmed the delay of the PS3, which is now slated to come out in November. More interestingly, the article claims that PS3 will ship with a 60-gig hard drive, built-in network card, and Linux!" Serious stuff here, with Sony's shares falling on the delay confirmation. There was a lot more news handed out at the conference than just the delay. Next Generation has details from Ken Kutaragi's 10 Point Breakdown. From the NYT article: "'We were discussing selling it in September, and some even said put it out in July,' Mr. Kutaragi said. Some analysts were immediately skeptical of this explanation, saying Sony needed to get the console out as soon as possible to combat Microsoft's head start, and the expected release this year of Nintendo's next game console, Revolution. They said Sony may be trying to buy time to bring down the production cost of key components, particularly untested technologies like Blu-ray and Cell. While Mr. Kutaragi did not reveal a price on Wednesday, analysts say Sony will likely try to sell PlayStation 3 for about $500." Please see related links and commentary below for more coverage. My two quick cents -

1. If they're not releasing in Japan until November, I find it highly unlikely they'll be releasing in the states until 2007. Previous PlayStation launches have always been staggered Japan first, U.S. second. I don't care if they say they're launching worldwide; At this point I think they're spinning to keep people happy.
2. If they're not out in the U.S. until 2007, they'll probably be the last next-gen console to do so. So far Nintendo says it's on track to launch this year. Sony isn't getting finalized dev kits out until June. Even just with that metric on the table, Nintendo looks to be in a better position than Sony at the moment.
3. At $500, there are going to be a lot of indifferent customers come March of '07. This will be especially true if, over a year after launch, Microsoft cuts the price of the 360 to coincide with the PS3 launch. If you have to choose between a solid platform that costs $300 (and already has a stable of games available) and a brand-new system that is two hundred bucks more with far fewer games, which one do you think most people will buy?

Regardless of what happens a year from now this is a major blow for Sony, a coup for Microsoft, and breathing room for Nintendo. What do you think the console market will look like this time next year?

Comments

Article Access

[eldavojohn]

A functioning link to the NYTimes article.

Also interesting is the component pricing total that reveals why Sony will most likely have to take a loss of hundreds of dollars per console to remain competitive.

Re:Article Access

[mozumder]

I think that's the main reason they decided to delay it. They probably made the first revs of the chips, and decided that, at $900 component costs, thought it would be WAY too much. So, they go ahead with their die shrink versions of the CPU and GPU, which I'm sure they've already planned on doing anyways as the standard course in a console's lifetime.

I think the machines they release later this year are going to be die-shrink parts. That'll sell for about 500.

Re:Article Access

[zerocool^]

I wish this crap would die.

Those prices are so out of whack. For starters, blue ray will NOT cost $300/drive. That's insane. Sony owns the license agreements for it, and will be fabbing it themselves. No royalties and no middle man = the blue ray drive will cost next to nothing. Same with the cell processor: It may cost $230 to buy one of them, or even a thousand. What about when you buy 500,000? Or 2,000,000? Or, you agree to fabricate them yourselves, and then you're only paying for the blueprints. The same goes for ram - how much ram is this thing supposed to have? Cause $40 buys you 512MB of ram off the interwebs now. Sony will make their own ram.

Everyone needs to chill out. Please remember that Microsoft and Sony are very different - Microsoft is a software company, and always has been. Sony has ALWAYS been a hardware provider; they own their own fabrication plants, they hire their own engineers - and most of the costs of outsourcing and subcontracting are moot points.

Not to mention, the very article the parent post links to conceeds that the $905 manufacturing cost will probably be down around $300 after 3 years. If that article was Feb of this year, and the console isn't launching until 2007, that's already 1/3 of their time-to-price-reduction elapsed.

Buying one does not equal buying millions.
Price now does not equal price in a year, or even next month.
End user does not equal patent owner, developer, and fabricator.

Sony is not in any trouble.

~Will

Re:Article Access

[Susceptor]

Is being a hardware company really a strength for sony? There are a lot of people in business that will disagree with the statement that having integrated opperations is a possitive thing. having your own plants to manufacture all the components may sound like a nice idea, but its not always so. having all of your componenets manufacture within the company means you dont have to rely on a shaky supplier, but it also means that you are not specialising, that you may be manufacturing components that are not as good as the ones you could buy on the open market, etc. having your own company manufacture all the components also means that you have HUGE overhead costs, which don't shrink when demand falls. Think of Dell computer and its success. Dell does not manufacture any of it's products, it outsources all of the production to third parties, and does nothing but actually assemble the already produced parts. this gives them enormous flexibility in the market, and keeps prices for the goods very competitive (low). All thats needed is a really solid supply chain management. Sony may not have good supply management, in which case a decision to manufacture the parts themselves may actually be an indicatin that Sony has serious problems.

Re:Article Access

[Anonymous Coward]

I dunno if some mod-point-enabled people will see your post, so I just thought I'd distribute some anonymous fury :

Dumbass.

Re:Article Access

[j00r0m4nc3r]

I don't know about the other components, but the DRAM they are buying from Rambus, and is probably more expensive since it is proprietary.

Re:Article Access

[Anonymous Coward]

The same goes for ram - how much ram is this thing supposed to have? Cause $40 buys you 512MB of ram off the interwebs now. Sony will make their own ram.

Sony should start making their own RAM to save money??

If you ever start a business, please let me know so that I can be careful not to invest in it!

Re:Article Access

[zerocool^]

No, they are Licensing it from RAMBUS. RAMBUS has never, and will never, physically CREATE ram and sell it. RAMBUS is a research group.

They pay rambus for the plans, and agree to rambus getting $X (probably $0.05 or something) per console sold. That's how it works.

Re:Article Access

[zerocool^]

I agree with you under most circumstances. But, perhaps in the case of sony, there's an exception.

1.) Dell has enormous flexability in the market. True. But Sony doesn't *need* flexiblilty for the PS3. There's only 1 PS3, and it's not end-user customizable. What they need is to be able to take one design, and ramp up production quickly and cheaply. You don't have to be horizontially integrated to do that - you need virtical integration. Sony is going to be perhaps buying, perhaps developing in house fab blueprints for the components, and then building the hell out of them.

2.) Sony is HUGE. I mean, dell is big, but it's really hard to overestimate Sony's size - they make dell look like a mom-and-pop. Aside from home amplification, home speakers, car head units, car speakers, dvd players, CD players, Sattelite receivers, CRT Televisions, Plasma TV's, LCD TV's, Computers, Notebooks, LCD monitors, Projectors, Optical drives, flash devices like memory stick, etc; they also own Sony/BMG music, Sony picture studios, SONYTV-ASIA (indian TV network), and probably a LOT of others I don't even know about. That's completely outside of the Gaming biz; of which they own the playstations, a myriad of in-house games like the ever popular Jak and Dexter, and loyalties from all the other games developed.

I find it hard to believe that sony would choose not to manufacture everything they possibly could for the PS3. They already have the virtical integration; their worldwide business is big enough to transition the existing operations into new fabs; and they have the capital to make a long-term smart move, like setting up a fab plant for RD Ram. Fab plants are INCREDIBLY expensive - the cost of the first chip is probably $100,000,000. But, with each successive chip, the cost goes ever downward.

~Will

Re:Article Access

[ByteGuerrilla]

"For starters, blue ray will NOT cost $300/drive. That's insane. Sony owns the license agreements for it, and will be fabbing it themselves. No royalties and no middle man = the blue ray drive will cost next to nothing" You don't know what you're talking about.

Re:Article Access

[adisakp]

I agree with you there. Even if the price is high to begin with, Sony has a win/win with PS3 mass production driving down the overall cost of BluRay in a much shorter time.

But then again this is Slashdot so who cares about facts. I'm an actual PS3 and XBOX360 developer and I made a comment on the last PS3 article to refute someone who didn't know what they were talking about (using only publically available knowledge but stuff I still know to be true as a registered developer who has both systems on his desk RIGHT NOW). The clueless parent was modded "Insightful" and I was modded "Troll" for refuting him.

Re:Article Access

[Anonymous Coward]

No royalties and no middle man = the blue ray drive will cost next to nothing.
[...]
you agree to fabricate them yourselves, and then you're only paying for the blueprints.

And the price of building the fabrication plant. And the cost of developing the product. And the wages of the engineers. I'm not quite sure what utopia you come from where researchers work for free and fab plants grow on trees, but here in the real world, it is perfectly plausible that Sony's expenditure adds up to an effective cost of $300 per drive.

Re:Article Access

[zerocool^]

Sony has been making their own ram (under various wholly-owned-subs) for years.

Re:Article Access

[mozumder]

Just because a company manufactures something itself, doesn't mean it's free. The prices aren't actually out of line, and a blu-ray drive can indeed cost $300 and the GPU can cost $150 and CPU another $150 and so on. These include the actual raw costs of the materials themselves. A blue laser diode isn't cheap to make, nor is a GPU. They all have costs, such as wafers, materials, capital cost depreciation (one silicon stepper can cost $15 million) and so on.

Again, these ARE the actual costs for the parts themselves. To give you an example, a wafer might cost $10000 - it is a single piece of silicon crystal developed from molten silicon. Lets say you print about 400 chips on it. That means it costs you $25 just for the wafer alone. Meanwhile, only half the parts work, because a defects (dust, crystalline defects, and so on). Suddenly, that number goes to $50/part, just for the wafer cost alone. Add up everything else (chemicals, power, labor, etc) and it does mean your chips are going to cost $150.

Re:Article Access

[Khuffie]

Really?

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?se ction_name=dev&aid=1758

Sony does not manufacture RAM. If they did, my VAIO would not have RAM made by Hynix, which merged with LG and is not owned by Sony.

So...stop spouting Sony fanboy nonsense. Kthxbai.

Re:Article Access

[smaffei]

Sony is not in any trouble.

Are you kidding me? If Sony muffs up this launch, they won't have anything profitable until "Spider-man 3" comes out in 2007 (since Columbia pictures is the only other thing that's making them money).

PS2 game prices are already falling like a rock. Any more delays and they're in BIG trouble

Re:Article Access

[Anonymous Coward]

no wonder it's delayed, it's linux...they probably have to recompile the kernel or something else crazy

Re:Article Access

[YU Nicks NE Way]

How can this be informative? It's simply, utterly, totally, wrong.

(a) IBM manufactures Cell for Sony. There's no second source at this time.
(b) The circuit boards have been outsourced to a Taiwanese OEM firm.
(c) The memory has been outsourced to another OEM.

etc. Sony does not have control over its prices yet, and probably never will, given the marginal difference in cost between Japanese and off-shore assembly.

Re:Article Access

[PhoenixOne]

Okay I'll bite on this troll. What makes you say that?

Re:Article Access

[Anonymous Coward]

Make it themselves, hire a contractor to make it for them.. there's not necessarily much difference.

A contractor will make a margin on each unit, but it won't be huge (10% above unit cost for example).

Re:Article Access

[apoc06]

sony is large enough to take the hit early on and recoup losses over the lifecycle of the ps3. as manufacturing prices go down. another thing to take into consideration is the fact that many of the same parts of the blu-ray drive that sony is sticking into the ps3 will be interchangable for use in their standalone blu ray players. so that is an additional savings for sony since they can use the same plant to supply the needs for several products.

Will there be an emotion chip too?

[hal2814]

Sounds to me like Sony shot themselves in the foot by muffing a Christmas release of the PS3 so they're gearing up the speculation by promising the kitchen sink like they did with the PS2 to try and keep anybody from buying something else in the meantime.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[gEvil (beta)]

I hear that it'll be able to render graphics like those used in Toy Story in realtime!

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[Overly Critical Guy]

I'm pissed at them for a weird reason, too. I don't want Microsoft and its crappy console to gain any foothold. The only reason the XBox exists is to push the Windows platform into the living room--originally Microsoft offered their platform libraries to Sony and Nintendo and only made the X-Box when both companies refused to ship Windows on their consoles. Microsoft cares nothing at all about games or quality of games, which is why we get commercials espousing the wonders of sweat on a basketball player mesh. They only care about extending Windows and tying people to it in some way.

So with the Playstation 3 delayed--arguably the only sure bet to crushing and stomping out the XBox for good--this gives more time for the XBox 360 to actually gain a foothold, even despite their pathetically slow start (Nintendo sold more Gamecubes last Christmas than Microsoft sold XBox 360s).

I expected the Playstation 3 to dominate once more, with Nintendo coming on the side as the cheaper "add-on" gaming console that everyone buys to play Zelda and Mario Kart on the side.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean render South Park in real time, right?

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[bigman2003]

So Microsoft doesn't care about the quality of the games...but Sony does?

The Xbox library is not all 8.5's and above...no doubt there were some real lemons. But buying Playstation games is a real crap-shoot. Once you get away from the obvious AAA titles, you have about a 1 in 3 chance of getting a game that is worth even opening up the wrapper.

Sony is the king of console shovel-ware.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[minus_273]

no no it will be "matrix stuff" today!

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[Anonymous Coward]

I never thought I'd refer to Microsoft as the "good guy" but if it's only between Microsoft and Sony, Microsoft is the "good guy"....

P.S. I hope Nintendo crushes them both.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[GameEngineer]

"this gives more time for the XBox 360 to actually gain a foothold"

???

The 360 is dead in Japan - hasn't even sold through the inital 150k shipment yet.

The 360 is not quite as dead in Europe as it is in Japan

The 360 only sold 160k units last month compared to 300k PS2s and the number of 360s sold each month has been declining each month.

What foothold are you talking about?

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean Home Movies, on Adult Swim, in real time, right?

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[raquor]

With supply shortages of course they arent selling as many 360s as PS2s. I've yet to see an actual 360 for sale anywhere as I wander through the video game sections of my local retailers. Lots of accessories and games, but not once have I spotted a console. Whereas PS2 has been around for a while and there is a steady stream of consoles getting to retail. Think before you speak.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[krakelohm]

Well at least your looking at this from an unbiased perspective.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[ThinkFr33ly]

I don't want Microsoft and its crappy console to gain any foothold. Have you used the "crappy console"? It's actually a helluva lot of fun. The launch titles were only so-so. No bad ones, but no truly great ones. That aside, Xbox Live makes up for it all. It's an incredible experience and it alone makes buying an X360 worth it. The only reason the XBox exists is to push the Windows platform into the living room--originally Microsoft offered their platform libraries to Sony and Nintendo and only made the X-Box when both companies refused to ship Windows on their consoles. This is completely false. Microsoft created the trimmed down version of Win2k for the Xbox exclusively. They never made any such offer to Nintendo or Sony. They intended to enter the market and compete with these companies from the get-go. In addition, saying that the Xbox runs Windows is misleading. The Xbox runs a very, very customized version of the Windows 2000 kernel, but that's about where things end. There is certainly a strategy to make the Xbox/X360 work well with PCs running Windows (media center in particular), but that's just one part of the overall strategy to win the gaming market. Microsoft cares nothing at all about games or quality of games, which is why we get commercials espousing the wonders of sweat on a basketball player mesh. Microsoft case about the quality of its games the same way Nintendo and Sony do - only insofar as that quality makes them money. You honestly think that Sony is some pure of heart company that loves its gamers? Get a grip. his gives more time for the XBox 360 to actually gain a foothold, even despite their pathetically slow start (Nintendo sold more Gamecubes last Christmas than Microsoft sold XBox 360s). Are we in the No-Spin-Zone all of a sudden? Microsoft's "slow start" was completely due to the LACK OF AVAILABE CONSOLES TO BUY. EVERYBODY wanted one, but they were all sold out. Everywhere. Why do you think they were going for 5x face value on eBay? Meanwhile, Gamecubes are a dime a dozen. Microsoft will undoubtedly solidfy a strong lead over the next few months thanks to finally being able to go into almost any store and buy an Xbox 360.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[shish]

I'm not sure if you're joking or not, but south park really is rendered with 3D tools, and it does take months to get done :P

link

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[cmoney]

Hater alert! Ghost Recon on the 360 is an awesome game. Not caring about the quality of games? This game is truly the first next gen game out there. Around a year before the PS3 will even be out in the US.

And complaining about the wonders of sweat on basketball players: isn't that what the Emotion chip is supposed to be all about? To enable the PS3 to show all the detail of the characters expressions, like sweat for example? And yeah, it does make a difference, take a look at Fight Night 3 on the 360. No more power meters, you have to look at your opponent to tell how they're doing.

Oh and I don't have a Windows box in the house at all...

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[smackenzie]

Corporate Microsoft definitely has an agenda to get Windows in the living room, but your lame-ass comment, "Microsoft cares nothing at all about games" does disservice to the Microsoft employees and affiliate employees (like Bungie) who actually do have a passion for games and a passion for producing quality games.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[RexRhino]

I don't know why you would take either side in the Xbox 360 vs. Playstation 3 debate. Even if you don't like Microsoft's buisness practices, Sony has dome some extremly unethical things to customers (Music CDs that install rootkits on your computer, anyone?). And from a Geek perspective, Sony is super annoying (Microsoft actually publishes system specs on it's hardware... where as Sony gives vauge statements about "emotion engines").

The fact is, having more than one game machine and one company dominating the whole industry is a good thing. Having Playstation the MAIN console with everyone else distant competitors (like it has been so long) is a bad thing, having several powerful competitors is a good thing. Don't worry, Sony isn't out of the video game industry yet despite their screw ups, there are too many die hard Sony fanboys for the Playstation 3 to flop. But the good news is that the market will probably be split evenly between the large companies, instead of the Sony quasi-monopoly on consoles.

So, from a consumer perspective, what is there to worry about? If you have extra money to burn, or are impatient, or you could care less which one will be the "winner", buy a Xbox 360 now... or simply wait a few months until the Sony machine comes out, and decide then what is the best console. Why have loyalty to any company (they certainly aren't loyal to us)?

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[Giometrix]

...which is why we get commercials espousing the wonders of sweat on a basketball player mesh.

As far as I can tell, the only basketball games on the 360 are made by Sega and EA. Both produce games for Sony as well, and it wouldn't be unreasonable to think that Sony will show a similar commercial... In fact, there are lots of (most?) cross-over titles, so the argument of one machine's library being superior to another has always seemed silly to me; unless you're a big fan of a particular platform-specific series, i.e. Halo or Mario.

....So with the Playstation 3 delayed--arguably the only sure bet to crushing and stomping out the XBox for good...

What's with fan boys' obsession with crushing a competing system? Exactly what benefit do you gain? If the 360 didn't exist, you probably wouldn't see a PS3 until 2008 or 2009, and costing much more...

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[IrquiM]

Where can i pre-order one? I want one now!

And why do we wait for the ps3 instead of purchasing 360?

I think one of the choices in the Open Office survey when asking why you installed it says it best:

- Because it's not microsoft!

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[Anonymous Coward]

The only reason the XBox exists is to push the Windows platform into the living room--originally Microsoft offered their platform libraries to Sony and Nintendo and only made the X-Box when both companies refused to ship Windows on their consoles. Microsoft cares nothing at all about games or quality of games, which is why we get commercials espousing the wonders of sweat on a basketball player mesh.

I know. Everytime I see sweat on a basketball player I think, "Oh, man. When is Windows Vista coming out? God, they're mopping up sweat; man, Windows Aero will be great!"

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[ensignyu]

There's a saying for this:

Microsoft doesn't have to compete. It just waits for its competitors to shoot themselves in the foot and Microsoft wins by default.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[jackbird]

That was talking about how the movie would have taken months to render if they hadn't redesigned their rendering pipeline. Also, it's horseshit, since the complicated shots (e.g. Hell) were done by established VFX houses. And even more horseshit since they could have bought more render nodes or used an outside service as well. In other places, Trey and Matt have compared rendering South Park with Maya to using a bulldozer to build a sandcastle. They turn out the shots for an episode in days, which is why they're able to have extremely topical stuff in new episodes (e.g. Saddam in his spider hole airing just 3 days after he was captured).

Not that animation in general isn't hard or time-consuming, or that the animators who work on South Park aren't talented, but South Park is fast and cheap to produce.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[Manmademan]

The only reason the XBox exists is to push the Windows platform into the living room--originally Microsoft offered their platform libraries to Sony and Nintendo and only made the X-Box when both companies refused to ship Windows on their consoles. This is completely false. Microsoft created the trimmed down version of Win2k for the Xbox exclusively. They never made any such offer to Nintendo or Sony.

Minor nitpick- Microsoft DID offer windows to Sega for use on the Dreamcast. Early models of the DC even have a "windows CE" logo on the casing. However from what I understand it was pretty clunky, few developers used it and windows CE was dropped towards the end of the console's lifecycle.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[Manmademan]

I don't know why you would take either side in the Xbox 360 vs. Playstation 3 debate. Even if you don't like Microsoft's buisness practices, Sony has dome some extremly unethical things to customers (Music CDs that install rootkits on your computer, anyone?). And from a Geek perspective, Sony is super annoying (Microsoft actually publishes system specs on it's hardware... where as Sony gives vauge statements about "emotion engines").

The "emotion engine" was just the name of the chip, much like "cell processor." Sony has never been shy about publishing specs- in fact you could accuse them of being a little TOO open about system specs as they tend to publish rather generous (over?)estimates of hardware performance. The performance specs of the Ps3 have been known for months as a quick trip to wikipedia will tell you.

Interestingly enough, the only company who's shown an outright reluctance to publish ANY specs on their new hardware is nintendo.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[ADRA]

They were talking about games created by Sony, not games that are licensed for playstation. Obviously low quality games are made for the dominating platform. They can't win on % of the market, but on sheer numbers, they could make -some- money off their product.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[apoc06]

wow... youre kidding me...

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[RyoShin]

Nintendo sold more Gamecubes last Christmas than Microsoft sold XBox 360s

When teaching things like economics as it applies to electronics, this should be a subject of focus.

Yes, the Gamecube sold more than the XBox360. But why?

We all know that the XBox 360 was a popular item. No one could keep it in stock. Microsoft somewhat shot themselves in the foot with lower production and guarenteed that this would happen.

But what if they had been able to meet demand? The only measure of demand we can measure is sales, and, as said, the "sold out" tag is misleading, as quantities are low, and certainly didn't meet expected social demand. If the 360 had the production numbers, would it have outsold the Gamecube?

Or would the Gamecube's price and library of games have outsold the 360, anyway? There are a couple different bundles you can pick up from any number of places; official bundles include the system, hook ups, controller, and one of the better games (Metroid Prime, Super Smash Bros, etc.) all for between $130 and $150. To even get just a 360 system, you have to shell out $300. If you want all the good stuff and a game, you have to lay down $450.

Or did production approx. meet demand, and the rest was just overhype?

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[SetupWeasel]

Oh my god! There is a first person shooter on the 360? If only they could get a racing game, I might fork over the cash for one.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Nintendo DS is throughly pounding the crap out of the PSP. the REvolution is going to be very different instead of being a "mee too" upgrade like the Xbox 360 and the PS3.

Nintendo is intent on grabbing back the crown and the others will flounder with the remains of sega. I know of many that are still pissed off at the stund that Sony records pulled and have changed their plans to buy a PS3.

Nintendo is planning a price mark for the REvolution games to be from $19.95 to $50.00. If they do this they will kick the crud out of Xbox and Sony as that is nearly 25% cheaper than what they are. The DS already is typically 40% cheaper in game prices than the PSP and it is hurting them.

Sony is dead, Xbox is dead. Nintendo will kick their arses once again.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[aichpvee]

Have you seen how huge the PS2 library is? I finally picked up a PS2 last spring and since then I've been amazed at just how large it is, especially by how many good games there are. Sony definitely doesn't have the AAA percentage that Nintendo has, but their A+ games dwarf the numbers of playable games on GameCube and xbox combined.

If you look at the exclusive games for each console there isn't even a competition. Sony's got stuff. Nintendo's got stuff. And microsoft has what, halo and Ninja Gaiden? And halo isn't even very good.

I don't know where all these microsoft fanbois are coming from (not considering parent as one, mind) but microsoft gaining any dominance in the console business will be bad for everyone. I think you've got to go with Sony in any Sony vs microsoft battle. They pretty much suck as a first party developer, but kick ass at bringing top quality third parties on board. They don't have the personal computer monopoly that will further enslave us if they take over the living room. As long as they don't put in the outrageous drm that has been rumoured, and if Nintendo can't take the top spot, I don't see how any reasonable person can be against Sony in this. microsoft can't be allowed to be the dominant player in console games, and that's just because of the huge amount of crap they will dump on us as players.

Feel free to mod me into oblivion. But go check out the 9.99$ and under bin at your local gamestoop first. There's more quality games there than you'll find on xbox and GameCube combined, which has consistently managed to shock me.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[bebing]

I got the linux kit for ps2, and it did come with some pdfs:

coreum_e.pdf
gsuser_e.pdf
VCL_User_Manual_E_v1.3.2_1.pdf
eeover_e.pdf
inst_e.pdf
eeuser_e.pdf
restri_e.pdf
vu_e.pdf

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[apoc06]

your statement is only partially true.

without the rush delivery of the x360, we probably wouldnt see the ps3 until later. thast totally true, however prices for these next gen systems would be alot lower if we simply waited. since cell processors were first put into production in 2005, by 2008 the cost of putting a cell in the ps3 would be alot lower. with bluray movies and players being releaseing 2006, the cost of adding one to the ps3 would be alot lower too.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[gkhan1]

Dude, it's called a

tag. Use it wisely. Also, Preview button is a good thing to consider sometimes.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[kabz]

Target here in Spring, Texas, off the busy I-45 freeway into Houston, had a few XBox 360's, two core systems, and one with the HD.

But I've given enough money to Microsoft, I'll keep my PS/2 and buy a Revolution when it comes out. I already have a DS which is great fun, and the Revolution looks like it's going to be the system with the most "fun and cool" games, instead of just more eye candy. I'm hoping that the new controller will allow some cool motion games. Who knows, maybe there will be exercise games that help old people stay mobile. Lots of cool ideas spring to mind when you have a controller that knows where it is in space.

Also, the fact that the Revolution is going to likely be cheaper is going to swing the purchase decision for a lot of people.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't waste your breath. I wouldn't be surprised that the parent is from Microsoft's PR dept. (userid > 900k) + (handle "ThinkFr33ly") = astroturf; plus read his/her posting history.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[Anonymous Coward]

What does Sega have to do with Nintendo or Sony?

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[General Fault]

The production did not meet the demand. Case in point, I went to buy a 360 this weekend (a full 4 months after release) and could not find ANY in a city of 2 million people, 4 Circut Cities, 2 Best Buys (that I know of) 2 Frys, several dozen GameStops and more WalMarts than one can count. It took me 4 days to find one and even then it was from someone that got one as a gift for X-mas and did would rather have the money. I could not even find one online for a decent price (all were backordered). If that is not a sign of a failed production/distribution plan, I don't know what is.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[Kuukai]

I expected the Playstation 3 to dominate once more, with Nintendo coming on the side as the cheaper "add-on" gaming console that everyone buys to play Zelda and Mario Kart on the side.

You know, after months of listening to Revolution-devotees and now this article, a thought just occured to me. Would it be that surprising if Sony granted Nintendo's initial greatest fear and copied some of their functionality? They certainly have the time for it now, and Nintendo will have to put all their cards down pretty soon, since they were counting on an earlier launch of the PS3. Not necessarily ripping off the controller, but they might crank out more "counter-revolution" technology in the form of (better) eyetoy applications and/or other new peripherals, giving it more of an edge on the competition. Like you said, Nintendo's strategy is "cheap", not very expensive to pull off. And like Nintendo said, it would be easy to copy. As far as the Japanese market goes, I bet the DS is scaring Sony a hell of a lot more than the 360.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[Anonymous Coward]

Trey and Matt have compared rendering South Park with Maya to using a bulldozer to build a sandcastle. They turn out the shots for an episode in days...

Which explains why their animation looks like shit.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[bigman2003]

You give Overly Critical Guy way too much credit.

His example of a complaint about Microsoft and games was the commercial with the basketball player who had a sweaty back. That was a 3rd party game.

Check Overly Critical Guy's history. He feels that Microsoft is responsible for all of the games on their system. My point was that Sony doesn't do any better.

Nintendo on the other hand has done a good job of losing third party support. So their average game is probably better- led by their first party games.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[Literaphile]

What does this add to the discussion? Oh, that's right... nothing (and yes, I'm aware that my comment is just as useful).

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[The-Bus]

Sony, in their Kutaragi "Ten Points" announcement, hopes to manufacture and sell 6 million units by the end of fiscal year 2006 (about five months). I have no doubt they will be able to sell all the units they manufacture, if they don't face any delays or shortages. However, that somewhat compares to Microsoft's boast of reaching about 5 million by June of 2006 (about six-and-a-half months).

This to me indicates near neck-and-neck sales figures out of the gate, assuming these predictions are all accurate. (They are not).

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[Anonymous Coward]

You realize than the southpark animation is an artistic choice, not a force of ability, right?

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[raquor]

No doubt. The 360 looks gets more attractive than the PS3 all the time. By the same token I'm looking more and more at the Revolution. I'm tired of playing the same crap all the time. 4 glitchy versions of Dynasty Warriors is enough...or is it 5 now? (Not including all the special editions or legends or whatever they call them now) I'm more interested in good games and while good graphics are sweet if the games suck or the system is more expensive than a low end PC that's just insane. Bring on the Revolution and bring back sane gaming that isnt driven by specs but by quality. I hope Nintendo turns out to be the only one that can turn a profit on their hardware...that to me indicates that THEY made the right decision. Even if they arent the "market leader" they will remain in business simply because they can turn a profit, that's just how business works.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[Trogre]

That aside, Xbox Live makes up for it all. It's an incredible experience and it alone makes buying an X360 worth it.

Really? Some crappy online experience makes playing with consoles more fun? Makes me wonder why I ever stopped playing QuakeWorld.

The Xbox runs a very, very customized version of the Windows 2000 kernel, but that's about where things end.

That and the fact that the XBox is basically a hardware implementation of the DirectX libraries.

Why do you think they were going for 5x face value on eBay?

Because like with any new technology, some very silly people will pay anything for a new toy for bragging rights.

Look, if you like Microsoft and their products then either you are someone who doesn't know Microsoft or you are Microsoft. Which are you my friend?

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[gkhan1]

Yeah, I know, I hate when people point stuff like that out :D

I just wanted to be on the other side of the conversation. Sorry!

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[Literaphile]

You were right, anyway -- it's annoying to read one big blob of a paragraph.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're probably right. Too bad the artists made the wrong choice and have chosen to not make the right one yet.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[Nazo-San]

The impression I've had is MS actually didn't shoot themselves in the foot at all. They did indeed intentionally force stores to stock less than possible and run out and intentionally chose to produce less than they could have, but, why do you think they did that? After all, it doesn't take much to figure out that had the produced enough to not sell out, they would have sold a lot. You know what I think they are doing with this? I think they want to create a sense of hype here. They want the XBox360 to look like this wonder product that's so great people have to stand in line for hours if they want to try to get one. You have to remember, the greater majority are less connected to information on such subjects, so are less likely to have read articles about things like how MS has forced some stores to let their shelves go empty sooner than they had to. Consoles sell AT LEAST as much to the average joe as to those of us who understand such things, and even among us not everyone knows. Actually, I'm not sure where the division between PC and console is, but, I suspect there are more average joes gravitating more towards PC and more geeky people gravitating more towards PC.

Anyway, as to comments about game base, I don't know what it is about XBox, but, somehow it seems to collect a pretty darned limited range of genres. My dad's collection consists of all FPS games except for one dusty copy of Baldur's Gate which he got because of all my ravings about the REAL Baldur's Gate (well, he didn't hate it, but, once he beat it he put it back on the shelf and never picked it up again.) That one isn't even an XBox specific thing. I don't know all of what he has for 360, but, the boxes I saw when I passed by recently looked like FPS games to me. Where is the Xenosaga or .Hack for XBox (ok, not the greatest games ever, but, I'm mainly demonstrating popularity here)? Oblivion is the only one I know of for XBox360, and I don't think one title in the right genre can prop a console up for people who want that genre versus the competition (especially in light of the fact that it's PC also and few people these days don't have a PC that should at least run it at minimal settings.) There's probably some little thing or two out there, maybe even a big thing or two, but, just not enough. The fact is, the overwhelming majority for XBox and XBox360 seem to have a strong tendency towards a few types rather than the huge list of every type you'll find on PS2. I'm sorry XBox/XBox360 fans, but, the games I've seen so far on those systems just aren't enough to convince me to buy one, but, I bought a PS2 last year or so when PS2 and XBox had both been out long enough to have built the basics and we could see how they were going. The PS2 was just the more attractive system to me.

BTW, one thing you may want to remember. PS3 has to compete with PS2. I'm serious. PS2 costs a mere $150 for a brand new slim model complete with built in network and modem, and you can probably find an older model new somewhere for less. You WILL find a used model somewhere for less if you are ok with used. PS2 has a huge game base with lots of fans, even some series that people like to follow. If I were a company making a new game that didn't need the greatest graphics since PS2 (which, when properly optimized, is quite capable after all,) let's say an RPG or something, I might think more about making it a PS2 game considering how many will have PS2s and may not want to upgrade until a few killer games come out for PS3. And if I were a new user looking at consoles, I might just consider the considerably cheaper PS2 over the PS3 if I just want PS2 games. Ok, PS3 is probably backwards compatible with PS2 games (better include PSX too, some people grabbed a PS2 in a hurry because it ran PSX stuff for their classics and may be unhappy if they sell off the PS2 to get a PS3 and the PS3 won't play some of their games.) Still, if I want a console mainly just for a few console exclusive things I can't get on PC, I'd be inclined

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[MHolmesIV]

If you look at the exclusive games for each console there isn't even a competition. Sony's got stuff. Nintendo's got stuff. And microsoft has what, halo and Ninja Gaiden? And halo isn't even very good.

Er? Dead or alive series, Elder scrolls (game of the year), Jade Empire (Probably the best game ever!), Star Wars: KoToR, Chronicles of Riddick: Escape from butcher bay (I've heard that this is an amazingly good game - never played it myself since I don't own an xbox), Fable...

I could go on, but essentially, all three consoles have very interesting and compelling games that I'd love to play, but never will since I refuse to buy any game consoles. (God of War and Katamari Damacy come to mind)

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[isolenz]

remember that the ps1's processor was also dubbed the emotion engine (I have it right here in a copy of next generation from 99), this didn't last long, guess they liked the name and made a bigger deal of it when the ps2 came around.
Also, I don't think you quite understand what the original poster meant by "system spec's", I believe that he was reffereing to the amount of ram dedicated to the sound processor, how many channels can be used for operation X, and not how many fps doom3 can get with option X,Y, and Z enabled.

I could care less about how this wave of systems will go, I'm thinking I'll end up with a revolution. I bought a PS2 about 18 months ago, and used it about 10 times.... maybe I'm just getting too old for this stuff.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[reybrujo]

This is completely false. Microsoft created the trimmed down version of Win2k for the Xbox exclusively. They never made any such offer to Nintendo or Sony.

According to a book titled Smartbomb, Microsoft did offer to Sony an alliance to control the living room. You can read more here.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[ThinkFr33ly]

Ya ya... forgot to select Plain Text instead of HTML. Whatever. :-p

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[PhoenixOne]

Guess they will just have to roll around in their piles of money because of their wrong choice. Sucks to be them.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[apoc06]

i have the benefit of being an xbox and ps2 owner and also having played most of those games at some point, and i dont think its the same.

dead or alive has a nice wow factor, but it gets pretty old quick when you start playing more dedicated fighting games for the xbox or ps2. elder scrolls and KOTOR both benefit from being lateral PC ports. same with halflife2, doom3, and farcry if you want to be technical. [halflife2 being the better of all the latter, obviously]

all of the consoles have their strengths and weaknesses. but even i have to admit that the xbox is the most lacking when it comes to AAA exclusives. because if i wasnt too lazy to upgrade my pc, i would probably own most of my xbox library for pc instead.

Re:Will there be an emotion chip too?

[apoc06]

well considering that they sold around a million and a half in a two month xmas period and they went into production in august. i would say that the shortage seems suspicious to me as well.

of the total sales, the x360 is not sold out in other regions in the same way it is sold out here in the US. and here, now you are able to find a few in stores; mainly core systems, but they are available...

theres no way to gauge how many systems would have sold if there were no shortage at all. if only three million people want x360s, but there are only 2 million x360s in the world, there will be a shortage. does that naturally mean that the x360 will sell 100 million units? of course not. theres very little that says that the x360 will sell at all once the early adopters have all been satiated. that responsibility relies on the developers ability to create exclusive content. then we shall see.

if i were MS, i would continue to keep production at a level /just slightly below/ demand until november, shower the market with consoles and then pray that my developers will have a big enough truck by then to throw at the ps3 launch juggernaut.

oh, and i would stop imagining that x360 owners are going to be absolutely loyal. people jump ship, and im not alone in that i plan to buy more than one next gen console this year. look at how many people sold their DS's for PSP's at launch, and vice versa.

Wow

[matr0x_x]

March 2007. Call me a pessimist but I'm predicting late October 2007 just in time for the holiday season

What a coincidence...

[Spy der Mann]

Sony seems to use Linux for the PS3 - and at the same time, Linus says he won't use GPL3 for Linux due to the DRM clauses.

Interesting coincidence, don't you think?

Re:What a coincidence...

[irchs]

No...

Re:What a coincidence...

[Yaa 101]

Nope, it's well known that Linus would rather have the protection of the GPL combined with the "openness" of the BSD Licence.
But in this world it seems that we must make a choice with that.
If Linus had started with a double licence early on he wouldn't had the troubles convincing all developers, which are many, to go commercial.
But then he would have a lower developer interest at the start of the linux project just like the BSD's have.
I think if it werent for the protection for himself and the Linux project at the start in '91, that Linus would never had chosen the GPL in the first place, he stated time after time that he does not mind things as DRM and "Trusted computing".

Choices, choices...

Re:What a coincidence...

[happymedium]

Except that we've known for a long time that Linus is no software freedom zealot (sorry for the loaded language), and no pal of RMS. The GPLv3 thing seems consistent with his views.

Global Launch

[Sans Virtue]

His two cents are odd considering that everything I've seen indicates a worldwide launch in November: http://ps3.ign.com/articles/696/696054p1.html

Re:Global Launch

[SimilarityEngine]

Just what I thought - also mentioned here (which is one of the "offsite" links above).

Re:Global Launch

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, and in the next breath he says "but not really, psyche!" He says that a simulatenous world-wide release would be "physically impossible" in the article you linked to - meaning we'll be getting staggered releases again.

Maybe not as staggered as previous releases (months) but still staggered (weeks).

Plus, I expect they'll have the Japanese version of the PS3 ready first, and they'd have to be insane to delay releasing it for any reason. They need a version of the PS3 out soon - very soon - if they don't want to completely lose this round.

Re:Global Launch

[confu2000]

Mmm. Global launch. Don't forget that 600K units in Japan, 399K units in US and 1000 units in London would still constitute a worldwide launch.

Re:Global Launch

[doodzed]

People are forgetting that the problem with getting numbers to the stores usually is manufacturing problems with the CPU. As far as I know that is finalized. There might be some problems with Bluray but I bet you they can make lazers and so on already. Any contract manufacturer in the world can put a few million together in a short time.. esp if the logistics are taken care of.

I can see sony of shipping it worldwide. The europeans will buy it immidietly because they seem to all onw PS2s.

Re:Global Launch

[Keeper]

A problems with ANY component will cause manufactering delays. I can't remember any console launch that was delayed by the CPU. With the 360, it turned out to be bad ram from a supplier, not the cpu.

Re:Global Launch

[Lillesvin]

Mmm... Global lunch... :-p

Re:Global Launch

[Bloomy]

If they sell some PS3's in Australia in November, can they claim they still hit their Spring 2006 target?

yay! another ps3 article!

[sstation]

and here i thought we were actually gonna make it to lunch time (eastern time) without seeing something about the ps3

It *IS* released Nov 2006 worldwhile

[Shadowlawn]

>>>>
    1. If they're not releasing in Japan until November, I find it highly unlikely they'll be releasing in the states >until 2007. Previous PlayStation launches have always been staggered Japan first, U.S. second, and so far there's no indication that this one will be different.
>>>>
It has already been confirmed to be a worldwide launch in November 2006, so that changes your reasoning quite a bit (don't underestimate holiday season!)

Re:It *IS* released Nov 2006 worldwhile

[bilbravo]

"3. At $500, there are going to be a lot of indifferent customers come March of '07. This will be especially true if, over a year after launch, Microsoft cuts the price of the 360 to coincide with the PS3 launch. If you have to choose between a solid platform that costs $300 (and already has a stable of games available) and a brand-new system that is two hundred bucks more with far fewer games, which one do you think most people will buy? "

Also, this point has fault also... $500 might be a lot for a game console, but $500 will be cheap for a BluRay player. Same deal when the PS2 came around, it was a good price for a DVD player/game console combo.

Re:It *IS* released Nov 2006 worldwhile

[ditoa]

Didn't they also confirm a Spring launch (for Japan at least) at E3 last year? I'm not sure if it was a confirmed launch date or not but I tend to take confirmed launche dates with a pinch of salt, especially 8 months before.

Re:It *IS* released Nov 2006 worldwhile

[c_forq]

That is assuming people want blu-ray players. Until most households have and HDTV I highly doubt this will be an issue.

Re:It *IS* released Nov 2006 worldwhile

[ADRA]

Yeah, unfortunately, for the 10 people waiting in line for high def dvd's, they'll probably just snub the system as a poor man's blu-ray player and buy a real one. Unless the gods take a hammer to everyone's head, I don't see how high def dvd's will have any market traction for at least 2 years.

Re:It *IS* released Nov 2006 worldwhile

[Manmademan]

"Most households" won't buy a console at $400 or $500 either. Early adopter households who will are much more likely to have an HDTV in them.

Re:It *IS* released Nov 2006 worldwhile

[apoc06]

yes, but the japanese government announced yesterday that hi-def movie players [the ps3 included] will be forced to support analog output until the end of the decade. so HDTV owners arent going to be the only ones able to utilize a blu ray or hd dvd drive. since the new blu ray spec places the us and japan in the same region code, the us will most likely be immune to the drm and hdcp-only fears and able to use their blu ray player on any form of tv [provided they have the correct cables] for a few years as well.

http://gear.ign.com/articles/695/695919p1.html

Re:It *IS* released Nov 2006 worldwhile

[bonk]

I believe the point is that most people who don't have HDTV will not be interested in Blue-Ray because they will get little to no added benefit from Blue-Ray movies as compared to DVD movies. So buying a PS3 as an expensive Blue-Ray movie player won't be a compelling reason for those people. And the people that do have nice, large HDTV will probably be picky and wealthy enough to buy a more featureful, dedicted Blue-Ray or HD-DVD player that isn't primarily a console.

Re:It *IS* released Nov 2006 worldwhile

[apoc06]

the general american public will believe almost anything a marketting team and a salesperson wanting commission tells them. the general public will start buying hdtvs in a frenzy over the next couple years before the analog dropoff. salespeople and marketting folks will use blu-ray and hddvd to add icing to the cake. "hey, well now that you have a new hdtv, you cant just watch dvds anymore... you NEED a new movie player...". plus the fact that they are backwards compatible with dvds is going to push alot more players than you might think.

the whole "rebuy my entire collection of movies" FUD is out the door. joe q. public will say "i can play the new movies and keep my old ones and watch them upscaled too?!?!?". never underestimate the stupidity of the american consumer with a credit card when it comes to technology. as long as the price is right, they will buy it b/c they dont know any better; they blindly believe salespeople, commericials, and the bleeding-edge, early adopter guy down the street that already has one.

Re:It *IS* released Nov 2006 worldwhile

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to underestimate the stupidity of the buying public, but people are reluctant to buy into a new format when they have one that is 'good enough'; Laser-Disc, Zip-Drives, DVD-Audio, etc. were all 'better' formats then what was avaliable but failed to be successful (on a large scale) because the average consumer did not see enough of a benefit to justify the cost.

Now, it is going to take years for the average person's TV to break or for HDTVs to hit a price point where the average person is willing to replace a perfectly good TV. HDTV zellots have been talking about how HDTV is being rapidly adopted because "25% of new TVs purchased are HDTVs" ignoring the fact that 75% of people are not buying HDTVs and that of the 25% that purchased one quite a few may have had no choice (most DLP, Projection, LCD and Plazma TVs sold are HDTVs and many people buy them because of their size will little focus on HDTV). The average person doesn't replace their TV more than once every 5-10 years so HDTVs will probably not be in the majority of homes until 2010 or 2015.

So basically, until 2010 (at the earliest) most people will not be ready to adopt a Hi definition DVD format because they will see no benefit; this means that the movies will not become all that prominant in either Blockbuster nor Walmart reducing the likelyhood that people will buy into it. Contrast this situation to DVD, where the format was dramatically better on any TV that had been produced in 15 years (prior to its release), had massive sound quality improvements on any sound setup (even using the TVs speaker) and provided people with added value in features that were available for the first time (behind the scenes, trailers, etc.).

Re:It *IS* released Nov 2006 worldwhile

[default luser]

Agreed. People who don't believe this need a touch of history.

Back in the 1980s, most TVs were much smaller than what they sell today, and much lower quality. You had a lucky few with big screens (greater than 30"), a significantly larger slice with screens in the 20-30" range, and the majority of the population with screens ranging from 12-20".

It's absolutely amazing how times change. My computer monitors even going back to the mid-1990s dwarf my family's old 14" TV, and have much better sharpness, bandwidth and color fidelity. You can buy 27" TVs at Walmart for less than 150 bucks that have visual quality most of us could only wish for in the 80s.

So, it's no surprise that VHS was considered good in the 1980s, when you consider that the average TV of the era was tiny and crappy. The 1990s started the wave of cheaper, larger, higher-fidelity televisions that showed the limitations of VHS, and by the end of the decade the market was hungry for DVD.

Unfortunately, the market hasn't changed much since DVDs were introduced. Screen sizes are up a bit, but HDTV technology is still too expensive for your average Walmart buyer. Even if HDTV suddenly dropped to the price range of your average Walmart buyer, you'd still have to wait 5 years or so for a potential market to build up.

HD-DVD and Bluray are in a very similar position to Laserdisc...not a huge improvement over the cheaper alternative, and selling to a very limited market. When only 5-10% of the market even owns equipment good enough to tell the difference, and they have to shell out $500+ to experience it, you've got limited room for growth.

Re:It *IS* released Nov 2006 worldwhile

[SSCGWLB]

Wow, you either:

1) Live in a different America from me. I live in the America between Canada and Mexico, you might have heard of it

2) Don't live in America and blindly believe whatever stereotypes you hear.

Either way, most of us American's don't "believe almost anything a marketting team and a salesperson wanting commission tells them". Thanks for playing.

~nate

Re:It *IS* released Nov 2006 worldwhile

[apoc06]

if that were true explain why commercials, billboards and other marketting are a billion dollar industry? companies pay for it, because it works. maybe not on you and i, but to the general population marketting works wonders.

as for salespeople, most people who barely know how to turn a computer on in the first place, who dont know the difference between the three console choices when buying their kids xmas presents, people who dont know the difference b/w ED, SD and HD, and the people that dont spend hours researching purchases on the internet months ahead of time rely on salespeople to tell them whats what.

the average consumer doesnt even realize that hd-dvd and blu-ray exist yet, much less do they know what they are and do. this fall and for the next couple years, millions will be paid to advertisers in order to convince the public that they NEED blu-ray or hd-dvd.

i definitely want to move to whatever city/ town you live in, if salespeople dont try to convince you to buy extra accessories and peripherals to go along with your purchases when you go shopping. obviously i am smart enough to say no[and i assume you are too], but the reason they push the choices on you, is because it works on your average consumer... you, me, and anyone savvy enough to read slashdot does not count as your average consumer.

Well well well...

[patrickclay]

Sony, your desperate attempt to win back the Slashdot crowd is admirable, but I'm afraid it's too late...

Sincerely,

Slashdot

Re:Well well well...

[Ayaress]

Not just too late, but probably counterproductive. With the level of DRM Sony has hinted at in the past for the PS3, I think a lot of Slashdotters will consider the fact that Linux is facilitating it to be more of an insult than anything.

Re:Well well well...

[bigman2003]

Honestly, would the addition of Linux bring in more than maybe 5,000 new customers?

Which apps will it run? Will it be anything that will ADD to the experience?

Re:Well well well...

[Lave]

They've done exactly the same as they did for the launch of the PS2 against the dreamcast. Lied about it's abilities: Check. Produced "real time footage" (Final fantasy cut scenes for the PS2 and we all know the PS3 debacle): Check. Lied about the release date: Check. I truly believe they knew all along it wasn't going to be released in "spring."

I remember confidently telling my girlfriend she was a fool for getting a dreamcast as the PS2 "will be so much better" and "they're releasing it real soon." The blood of the Dreamcast is on my stupid hands.

Fool me once Sony shame on you, fool me twice ....

They've been doing anything to put you off thinking about a dreamcast/xbox360. And with the root kit fiasco they are pretty muuch dead to me. They need to stop treating me like a moron and a pirate if they want my money.

Re:Well well well...

[SimplePaul]

Emulators comes to mind

Would seeing Sega Genesis, Nintento SNES, N64, DreamCast games being played on the PS3 impress potential customers? I think so.

Also, if Qemu-PPC can be ported to the platform then could we see Windows and Windows games being run on the PS3?

Re:Well well well...

[Anonymous Coward]

Check. Produced "real time footage" (Final fantasy cut scenes for the PS2 and we all know the PS3 debacle)

Why don't you actually point us to some of this "footage?" Oh wait you can't, because like the Toy Story graphics thing, it's 100% BS.

Re:Well well well...

[Anonymous Coward]

Which apps will it run? Will it be anything that will ADD to the experience?

I'm hoping for Cell-enabled video encoding. That could be wicked fast.

Re:Well well well...

[Manmademan]

He's talking about the well publicized "Final Fantasy 8 Dance Scene" that was rendered in real time as one of the early demos of what the system can do. Not to hard to find with a quick google search.

It's a VERY impressive demo but there's no way the Ps2 can render anything that detailed during actual gameplay situations. To the best of my knowledge the rest of the demos have been met or exceeded- even the "Face" demo is matched by in game scenes from Silent Hill 3.

Re:Well well well...

[Jubii]

Sony, your desperate attempt to win back the Slashdot crowd is admirable, but I'm afraid it's too late...

Sincerely,

Slashdot

Ok Slashdotter... you drive a hard bargain. What do you want? Chicks? Cars? We can do that. It may cause us to push back the launch date, but we can do it. I can see us having a beautiful relationship, Slashdotter. Beautiful!

Your friend,

Sony

Re:Well well well...

[Anonymous Coward]

why the hell wouldn't you just use your damn computer then?

Makes no sense. You wanna shell out 800 bucks so you can play excitebike again? Go nuts, but I'm doing it for free... sucker.

Re:Well well well...

[thatguywhoiam]

Dear Slashdot,

And you are....?

- Sony

Re:Well well well...

[MrCopilot]

If it launches with linux I will buy one. I usually wait a few years after launch, but I want to support that decision with my cash. If it doesn't I won't. Simple.

My money is still riding on the Revolution.

Re:Well well well...

[Anonymous Coward]

He's talking about the well publicized "Final Fantasy 8 Dance Scene" that was rendered in real time as one of the early demos of what the system can do. Not to hard to find with a quick google search.

Then provide a link, please.

Re:Well well well...

[SimplePaul]

why the hell wouldn't you just use your damn computer then?

AC, my thought is that emulators and the like can be brought into the living room.

Rather than getting your friends to huddle round the computer desk, switch the PS3 on and game like normal.

As somebody who will buy one of the 'next-gen' consoles, I would like this.

Re:Well well well...

[rseuhs]

Check. Produced "real time footage" (Final fantasy cut scenes for the PS2 and we all know the PS3 debacle): Check.

If you are talking about the Killzone trailer, it just really shows the difference between Microsoft and Sony:

Microsoft is like an Ogre, stomping everthing in it's path with brute force. They have absolutely no creativity, no original ideas and - in this comparison - no ideas how to put out great visuals with limited resources.

Sony may be equally evil (actually all big companies are), but at least they are creative (say what you want about Cell, but it is a completely new idea and not an off-the-shelf design. Even if the Cell fails big time, it is great that such a design has been tried and tested and the whole computing industry will be smarter afterwards.) and that seems to be true also for Sony Europe who create Killzone:

At first sight it's astonishing. Impossible that a console could do that!

But if you look a little closer, you see how they cut corners: When the lander explodes, it's just a cloud of dust and 4 or 5 parts flying away. The soldiers don't even have shadows (the burning soldier actually looks quite strange because the fire doesn't cast a shadow), etc. In general what that trailer sets it apart from most others is the liberal and clever use of dust clouds and smoke (which many game engines seem to have trouble with), so if you believe that the PS3 can render dust and smoke better than this generation, you shouldn't have too much trouble believing the PS3 rendering the Killzone trailer in realtime.

Actually (and if you reply, reply to this too please) I find it much harder to believe that they used a movie-style rendering farm to create a trailer and then forgot to the shadows.

But of course we will all see it soon enough.

Re:Well well well...

[timeOday]

Which apps will it run? Will it be anything that will ADD to the experience?

My guess? Firefox, for one. The final chapter on what should constitute a "home computer" is not yet written. That's why Microsoft wants to own the livingroom.

Re:Well well well...

[Lave]

I'm busy today - but you wanted a reply so here are a few points:

1. Your completely correct about microsoft. The Xbox 360 is the most "soulless" console to date.

2. I agree with you to a certain extent about Sony being more creative. They made Ico and SoTC so they get my huge respect there, but I'm less bothered with innovation in the technology involved to be honest. I'm most excited about the Revolution, as that shows "true" innovation despite it's lack of power.

3. With the killzone footage, it's more that they lied about what it represented, and that bothers me. There is no point arguing over the abilities of the machine and whether it is capable of rendering that - I don't believe it is, but as you say we have to wait and see. But it's a very good point about the shadows, but I never noticed the lack of them, so yes I can imagine them leaving them out. I believe Sony wanted to create something very impressive that looked like a real game.

4. My main problem is that the video does not represent what a game will be like on that system, it's too prepared, and dense with detail. I believe that Sony have no intention of making a game that has that level of detail running throughout it. They are lying about the experience they will give you.

But most importantly I said "I believe" about a billion times just then. Lets wait and see. All I know is I was here last time. And I was lied to. They convinced me to help kill a console that on reflection offered the prospect of more original games, with better art - not power.

And this time, I won't do that - I will stand by the Revolution because so far I only see pretty versions of the games I already own coming out of the PS3. And that tires me.

Re:Well well well...

[Anonymous Coward]

He's talking about the well publicized "Final Fantasy 8 Dance Scene" that was rendered in real time as one of the early demos of what the system can do. Not to hard to find with a quick google search.

It's a VERY impressive demo but there's no way the Ps2 can render anything that detailed during actual gameplay situations. To the best of my knowledge the rest of the demos have been met or exceeded- even the "Face" demo is matched by in game scenes from Silent Hill 3.

Actually, that dance scene was improved too by games like MGS3. The problem is that most people thought the dance scene was the one pre-rendered in FF8, when it was very different, actually. The PS2 demo only featured Squall and Rinoa with a much lower polygon count, and a scenery lacking much detail.

You can check the demos here:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-868526234 855862500&q=ps2+demo

Re:Well well well...

[rseuhs]

2 - I agree, actually I myself lean more to a Revolution than a PS3. Nevertheless I think the Cell is very interesting technology and it's great that it is tested in the real world.

3,4 - I don't really know what you mean by lying. AFAIK they said that the trailer was made to PS3 specifications, I haven't heard them saying anything about the story or the what the game is about. (Probably a 1st person shooter, but there are still lots of unknowns) Of course it will be impossible to put that much action per second into the game, so of course the look and feel of the real game will not be so great, but honestly that's obvious.

If you consider that a lie, well then every trailer I've seen so far is pretty much a lie because every trailer overexposes "exciting" stuff (that may happen in the game only very rarely or never at all) and leaving out "boring" stuff.

I really don't see the difference to other trailers in that regard.

Nevertheless, the Killzone trailer shows that these developers and artists are capable and competent - it remains to be seen wether Killzone will reflect that, of course.

Fact is, that the trailer contains many ideas, that have nothing to do with graphics and set it apart from any other trailers I've seen so far: Guys landing in the battlezone, the general chaos in battle, etc. Or to put it in another way: The trailer shows that creative minds were involved, unlike so many others which just show the usual running around. IF they are able to harvest that creativity in the game, it can really be great.

Or to put it in even another words (it's not easy to say what I mean), they were tremendously successful to create a mood, a setting, a feeling of being there in and of course graphics helped a lot, but I bet that these same people could create an almost as great mood with Duke-Nukem style sprite characters. For example, what I mean: In all other trailers of 1st person shooters (I've seen), the non-player characters act like robots: A nuke might explode nearby and they don't even twitch.

Of course the great graphics help, but it would be easy to create twitching characters with sprite-graphics too, the point is not the graphics, the point is evolving the whole theme to the next level.

Maybe we mean the same thing. Sony-Europe is playing a lot with our emotions, you say that is lying, I say it's exactly what I want in a videogame and if they can do it in a trailer, they might succeed in the game as well.

But most importantly I said "I believe" about a billion times just then. Lets wait and see. All I know is I was here last time. And I was lied to. They convinced me to help kill a console that on reflection offered the prospect of more original games, with better art - not power.

Because I never had a Dreamcast, I can't comment on that. However I don't see why a creative game developer should be able to create an original game on Dreamcast and fail to do the same on PS2.

And this time, I won't do that - I will stand by the Revolution because so far I only see pretty versions of the games I already own coming out of the PS3. And that tires me.

I will wait for both to be available and make up my mind then. Since I'm only a casual gamer and don't want to spend so much, it's pretty likely that I end up with a Revolution, too. Nevertheless, I think Sony Europe is able to create great games and Killzone has a good chance of becoming very good. Not because of the graphics, but because these guys know what is important (like your allies twitching and screaming) and what isn't (like shadows).

Re:Well well well...

[Antifuse]

The blood of the Dreamcast is on my stupid hands. No, the blood of the Dreamcast is on the hands of Sega, who failed to make ANY kind of decent effort at promoting it, not to mention failing to keep any good third party developers around.

Need a Linux for PSP

[DrXym]

Seriously. Sell the thing on UMD with a downloadable cross-platform set of compilers and let the homebrew people have at it. Then everyone's happy - the user for having a bunch of cool new things to run, the homebrew scene for having official endorsements, and the games makers since running homebrew over Linux and through different APIs effectively kills any notions of piracy.

Re:Need a Linux for PSP

[Thrakkerzog]

I'm pretty sure they want to make money through software sales. I think the PSP is sold close to at cost, or even at a loss.

It would be in their best interest to keep people from using the hardware for other purposes.

Re:Need a Linux for PSP

[drinkypoo]

OTOH they can sell a boot loader UMD for the price of a game and help make it up that way. I actually have bought one new game for my Xbox (GTA:SA) so Microsoft's unwitting strategy of releasing a box that runs Linux is not entirely unuseful...

Re:Need a Linux for PSP

[meringuoid]

and the games makers since running homebrew over Linux and through different APIs effectively kills any notions of piracy.

It would slaughter the game makers.

PSP games are doing badly enough anyway. Look at the PSP shelves, it's mostly UMD movies, at least in the stores where I am.

Suddenly there's a homebrew kit, and people can load MAME or Z-SNES or something onto the PSP, along with hundreds of roms. Illegal, perhaps, but certainly not to be caught by Sony's protection.

I'd buy a PSP at that point, certainly, but I'd never buy a single game. I'd load the thing full of roms.

Re:Need a Linux for PSP

[drinkypoo]

FWIW a GP2X would probably be a better platform for emulators. It's cheaper and has more options, including a video out cable. It also has a hardware scaler, which can help both with emulation, and with watching video - you're supposed to be able to watch unscaled videos right on the unit. Personally, I got a Pocket PC, which has a faster primary CPU (400MHz instead of 200MHz) and more expansion (CF-II and SDIO) but then, it has no spiffy graphics hardware, and I have to recode video at 320x200 before I can watch it on my PDA - which has a shitty control layout. It'd be okay for NES and older systems, but that's about it, just due to the button scheme or lack thereof.

Re:Need a Linux for PSP

[DrXym]

Linux is software. Sell it on a UMD for $60 and people will buy it, especially if it works nicely and allows people to tinker around with it, writing their own apps that run from a memory stick. Sony even used to sell Linux for PS2 but it was hamstrung by the need to buy a keyboard, mouse, network expansion & harddrive. None of this is necessary for a PSP - just a UMD, somewhere to download dev tools from and the rest will take care of itself.

Re:Need a Linux for PSP

[DrXym]

How would it slaughter the games makers? Homebrew writers would be restricted to using the APIs that were exposed through Linux which almost certainly aren't going to compete with the ones games makers use. And such a kit certainly wouldn't allow them to pirate games either since the whole Linux thing gets in the way. All this does is allow tinkerers and others with bespoke requirements to suddenly find new and innovative ways of using their PSPs. The only effect of a devkit is an increase in sales to such people, who might buy a few games while they're at it.

Re:Need a Linux for PSP

[nogginthenog]

I know what you mean. My iPaq runs emulators pretty well, but the 'joystick' sucks. It's hard enough to play a simple left-right-jump game like donky kong. an IR joystick would be neat...

Re:Need a Linux for PSP

[Sosigenes]

In my opinion, and what has been demonstrated somewhat with the sales of PSP games so far, is that well-written games do not depend on amazing graphics or performance. A well made game, with a good story or plot and a good implementation to go along with that can be much more astounding, and it is this that would possibly slaughter game makers.

With APIs and what is exposed through Linux, such games should be possible. Sure, they may not be as "amazing" as the PSP games due to less direct access or less freedom, but what they could be - is better games.

Plus the fact it'd most likely be possible to port many already existent games which run on Linux, let alone emulators as mentioned above, offering potentially loads of games, both new homebrew, emulation and ported games. For a platform which sells at a loss and depends on UMD movies and game sales, this would be crippling, both to the developers and to Sony.

One only has to look at a platform such as the GP2X to realise this - so far, no commercial games (released), just ports, emulators and homebrew - yet it has a great following, a huge range of free games and is enough to keep many people occupied, even without amazing 3d effects or the latest releases. Endorsing this on a platform such as the PSP, as far as I can see, would slaughter the game makers - it'd be hard to compete with such competition, especially at least, at the rate it's going now (Although it's a personal opinion, I took a look through the PSP games - I found very little which was tempting, original, creative or even mildly appealing - To me, although I admit I may be a bit of an old-fashioned gamer, imprsesive 3D graphics do not make a good game).

Re:Need a Linux for PSP

[KDR_11k]

People are already running mostly homebrew or movies on their PSPs, the worst thing that could happen is that the homebrew users can finally update their firmware and start buying new PSP games again.

Simultaneous Worldwide Launch

[jon.wolf]

According to the coverage on joystiq, It will be a worldwide release in November of this year. "The PS3 will launch 'in early November 2006 in Japan, North America and Europe simultaneously.'"

Until further details emerge, claims of a US '07 release appear to be unsubstantiated.

Re:Simultaneous Worldwide Launch

[ukdmbfan]

Interesting choice of words, considering Ken Kutaragi himself said: "A completely simultaneous launch is physically impossible" It seems they expect a worldwide launch "around this time [november]", but whether that happens or not remains to be seen...

Re:Simultaneous Worldwide Launch

[SetupWeasel]

I think it was a comment on the fact that similar promises in the past (read: PSP) have not been realized (read: Japan 12/04, USA 3/05, Europe 9/05).

As with anything Sony, I will believe it when it sits on the shelf.

Re:Simultaneous Worldwide Launch

[apoc06]

when any game manufacturer talks of a simultaneous launch, that means within the same launch window.

so basically they can release the console in japan on the 1st, america on the 15th and europe on the 30th and still call it simultaneous.

its feasible, but will it happen? thats anyones guess... if they learned anything from launching the psp late against the ds in america, im sure they will at least attempt what they claim.

FUBAR summary....again

[Mille Mots]

From the summary:

...More interestingly, the article claims that PS3 will ship with a 60-gig hard drive, built-in network card, and Linux!" Serious stuff here, with Sony's shares falling on the delay confirmation...

From TFTA (link to Ken Kutaragi's 10 Point Breakdown):

7. Kutaragi said that that the PS3 will require a hard drive, which will have a 60 GB capacity and support Linux OS. No word on if it will be included.

Oops.

--
Sig arrêt

Re:FUBAR summary....again

[Tx]

Well, a lot of people don't seem to be taking that as quite so black-and-white. On The Register, their interpretation is that the PS3 will probably ship with cheaper no-harddrive version for those that just want basic console gameplay, and a more expensive premium version with harddrive. Considering the cost figures floating around, that would make a lot of sense, and they did state the harddrive would be upgradeable, so it's not hard to do the two versions.

Re:FUBAR summary....again

[drinkypoo]

Kutaragi said that that the PS3 will require a hard drive, which will have a 60 GB capacity and support Linux OS. No word on if it will be included.

Oops.

If you don't need a special 'Linux Kit' to run Linux on the thing, it hardly matters whether or not it's included. THAT is the question which must be answered.

Re:FUBAR summary....again

[prockcore]

Not only that.. but doesn't anyone remember the exact same statement when the ps2 harddrive came out? That's right, Linux was available on the PS2. Didn't really mean anything though.

Re:FUBAR summary....again

[apoc06]

prediction:

better yet, the single SKU ps3 console will ship without a harddrive. BUT you need a harddrive in order to play/ save games.

the tech savvy will go out and buy their own 250gig drives, all is well with the world.

john q public will be duped into thinking that he can only buy sony's 60 gig, since it sits on the display next to the ps3. without multiple SKUs sony can convince the public that their console is cheaper than it is. the harddrive will become the next generations' version of the memory card.

Re:FUBAR summary....again

[ivan256]

Isn't that essentially what the 360 did? Except for the allowing you to go buy your own part, of course...

Come the end of this console generation, when you tally up the statistics, what percentage of the 360 titles do you think will work at all without the hard drive? 5%, maybe? Once one developer requires it, they'll all start to require it, and the first developer to require it releases their game in five days.

If the hard drive for the PS3 is seperate, and you can use third party drives just like you use third party memory cards on the PS2 it will be a stroke of genius on the part of Sony.

worldwide simultaneous release

[matthewcharles2006]

according to 1UP.com:

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3148775

Good news

[caluml]

If it's true, it can only be good news. The more big companies that use Linux for their products, the more defen[c|s]e there will be for any legal challenges that affect it - hurrah!

Like I've always said

[tomstdenis]

I'd be willing to pay more for a gaming console if I had control to produce my own content [e.g. programs, games, whatever].

I'd pay 800$ for a PS3 if it meant I could ssh to the thing and play with the cell processor or beam media to it or something.

If all I can do is play games then I wouldn't pay more than 200$ for it. Cuz at that point I'd just play my xbox1 out of spite.

Tom

Re:Like I've always said

[finnif]

I'd be willing to pay more for a gaming console if I had control to produce my own content [e.g. programs, games, whatever].

There's one of those out already.

Wait for it... Wait for it...

It's called a PC.

Re:Like I've always said

[Threni]

> It's called a PC.

A spec like the PS3 for $500? Where can I get one of those?

Re:Like I've always said

[tomstdenis]

Show me a PC with a highly dedicated (and replicated) cell processor with tightly coupled memories and the like.

The big downside to the PS3 though is as a general processor it's actually shit. It lacks OOE and is really depending on Cell applications to make it shine.

That said, it still would be a neat box to develop with.

Tom

Re:Like I've always said

[Shihar]

I think the consol you are looking for is known as a "computer". Yes, I believe "computer" is the correct answer.

Re:Like I've always said

[drinkypoo]

I wholeheartedly agree. The only way Sony might possibly get people to buy significant numbers of this PS3 thing at the prices that are kicked around most frequently is to make it a computer. A PS3 with a hard drive, high-speed networking, and Linux is a very reasonable device to use for all of the average person's computing needs. Linux with KDE or Gnome (plus a bunch of apps) on the PS3 should be plenty speedy, very reliable, and do everything most people want to do.

Put another way: There ain't no fucking way I'm paying $500 for a game machine and blu-ray player. I already have a shitpot of game systems and I don't give a damn about blu-ray movies because if I can't afford a PS3, I certainly can't afford a HDTV. And I can't. But I do care about being able to eliminate more large computers with high power consumption.

Re:Like I've always said

[tomstdenis]

Why is this funny?

It's a dedicated platform with interesting hardware you don't find on a PC.

That's like saying you should be excited about going to Europe [or vice versa] for the first time because they're just human over there anyways.

New things, new possibilities.

Who knows, the Cell processors may prove more useful than just in gaming. If they have anyway half competent ALUs in them you might be able to do crypto research on them, or biological or physical, or ...

Who knows. Point is it is a DIFFERENT platform to develop for.

For the same reason I bought a 300$ PPC device and a 100$ gameboy to "program" I think it'd be cool to have a PS3.

Tom

Re:Like I've always said

[2008]

> It's called a PC.

A spec like the PS3 for $500? Where can I get one of those?

Right now? Same place you can get a PS3. :)

Re:Like I've always said

[Steve525]

I think the consol you are looking for is known as a "computer". Yes, I believe "computer" is the correct answer.

True, but there are important differences between a hackable console and a computer. You get more bang for your buck in a console (at least when it comes to graphics) because the hardware is subsidized by the games. In addition, because the console is a fix platform, the game writers can squeeze more performance.

The fixed platform is also valuable because it makes every thing much simpler for the consumer. The consumer doesn't have to worry about whether any given game will run on their system, or how well it will perform. Everyone's going to get the same experience.

I think what the original poster wants is less like a modern PC, and more like an 8-bit era home computer (Commodore 64 or Atari 800). You can use it like a computer if you want (you can program it, or write term papers), although you don't have the freedom to change hardware like in a PC. In exchange for this inflexibility, you know any game or software you buy will work just fine.

Re:Like I've always said

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, and if all you did on this $800 console that Sony sells for $500 is dork around in a terminal, they certainly wouldn't want you as a customer. They need to sell games to make a profit, not systems. 99.9% of people will happily buy it for $500 and buy dozens of games over its lifetime. You represent a fraction of a % of people who would buy it at a higher cost only to never buy a game for it, install Linux on it, and feel cool.

Re:Like I've always said

[yanos]

Right on.

Only on slashdot you will find people that want to program their game console. So that's a bit why manifacturer just don't care about that. Also, part of the reason I like consoles is that IT WILL ALWAYS WORK RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX! You pick a game from the store and stick the disc into it, press power AND YOU GO AHEAD AND PLAY THE DAMN THING! If there is only a tiny little chance that things could break because of some modding, I don't want to hear about it!

IMO, anyway.

Re:Like I've always said

[tomstdenis]

Right and the IBM PC was popular because it was DRM locked into only running IBM applications.

Troll.

Look at the gameboy. Quite a few sales [I'd say more than trivial amount] are due to homebrew development of things like PocketNES and other originals. Heck the NES series of GBA carts are using [last I heard] a version of PocketNES to get the job done.

If the PS3 was both standard [e.g. no variants long the product line] and open to homebrew you'd get the best of both worlds [and then some]. You'd still get your label games from EA and the likes but you'd also get the chance to run things you wouldn't see off the shelf.

Re:Like I've always said

[tomstdenis]

I don't get your position. Sony doesn't have to sell it for 800$ or 500$ nor do they have to DRM lock it in.

I think though if they are going to sell it for a high price it had better be free of DRM restrictions on running software. I don't buy laptops that only run Windows why would I buy an expensive console that only runs Sony games?

If the PS3 cost say 200$ then I'd be totally willing to be locked into only licensed games. But if it's going to sell for 500$ or more than screw them.

I think even in the spoiled holier than thou state people are in now parents would have a hard time shelling out that much for a game console and most college bound young adults would have a chllenge getting the cash together.

When the xbox360 first came out they couldn't keep it in stores. Now I can walk into walmart and see 5 of them behind the glass. The platform simply costs too much and isn't moving [at least where I am near Toronto].

Tom

Re:Like I've always said

[johncadengo]

I'd be willing to pay more for a gaming console if I had control to produce my own content [e.g. programs, games, whatever].

You and what army?

Re:Like I've always said

[thatguywhoiam]

I think the consol you are looking for is known as a "computer". Yes, I believe "computer" is the correct answer.

Hmmm.. your ideas have merit. But, you will never get the proles to accept such an outlandish moniker for the device. "Computer", hmph. They wonn't even be able to spell that! Rework it, put a large blinky light on top, and name it something simple - y-box, or z-box for example. Call for me when its finished. [adjusts monacle, spins on heel and exits]

Re:Like I've always said

[finnif]

A spec like the PS3 for $500? Where can I get one of those?

With a PC you're paying for the right to not have to subsidize the hardware vendor by buying the software. Remember that with every PS3 title, Sony's going to get some licensing fee for every game sold. If the PS3 hardware wasn't subsidized like that, do you think it would be $500? Similarly, if you could develop anything you want for it (the post I was replying to), the subsidizing model doesn't work.

Bah Sony. Bah...

[Anonymous Coward]

Shipping with Linux does not balanace out unlawful virus DRM root kits. While you're on your way out, take your blu-ray with you. You'll want to hold on to those drives though, in 20 years a new generation of crazy betamax freaks will be paying top dollar.

Sony really dropped the ball here

[rehtonAesoohC]

With Microsoft releasing the XBox 360 as early as they did (relatively), Sony is really fighting an uphill battle here. Whether or not the PS3 is better than the 360, the "next-gen" war is already heavily favored to those who actually make their products available.

Sure there are some Sony fanboys who would refuse to buy Microsoft products I'm sure, but then factor in the Nintendo Revolution release later this year and well... I just don't see how they can really expect to win major market share with this platform.

Re:Sony really dropped the ball here

[DogDude]

I just don't see how they can really expect to win major market share with this platform.

If you've looked at the XBox 360 sales numbers, it's obvious that there are LOTS of people (like me) that are patiently waiting for the PS3. I'm not going to buy 2 consoles, and it's pretty damn shortsighted if I can't wait a bit longer for a much better console. Sony has nothing to worry about. And, Nintendo has largely dropped off the radar among grown-up, non-Japanese game players. I know that I consider Nintendo to be just for the kiddies, and I haven't considered buying a Nintendo product in 10 years.

Re:Sony really dropped the ball here

[Achernar]

I'm extremely sorry then that you missed out on some of the greatest games of this last generation, many of which catered very well to sophisticated, mature gamers. Viva Gamecube!

Re:Sony really dropped the ball here

[rehtonAesoohC]

I don't know about Nintendo dropping off the radar... The fact that the Revolution will have a game catalog that includes every Nintendo release from every Nintendo console ever made will attract those grown-up, non-Japanese game players.

The fact that you haven't considered buying a Nintendo product in 10 years is exactly why they decided to make this available I would think.

Re:Sony really dropped the ball here

[Whyte Panther]

With Sega releasing the Dreamcast as early as they did (relatively), Sony is really fighting an uphill battle here. Whether or not the PS2 is better than the DC, the "next-gen" war is already heavily favored to those who actually make their products available.

Sure there are some Sony fanboys who would refuse to buy Sega products I'm sure, but then factor in the Nintendo Gamecube release later this year and well... I just don't see how they can really expect to win major market share with this platform.

Not a fanboy, but look how that worked out last time.

Re:Sony really dropped the ball here

[rehtonAesoohC]

Eh well, the Dreamcast was a bit of a flop from the get-go. Sure Sega had the Genesis to springboard from, but I think we can all agree that the XBox is a lot better of a platform to launch a "sequel" from than the Genesis was...

But then again, maybe not...

Re:Sony really dropped the ball here

[Anonymous Coward]

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Re:Sony really dropped the ball here

[apoc06]

every first party release from every nintendo console...

i hope it handles gameboy, gba and ds games as well.

will they do the smart thing?

[LWATCDR]

Will it also be a PVR?
Will it have a memory stick slot so you can take your show straight from the PS3/PVR and put the on the PSP?
Any chance that the PS3 will play UMD movies so you don't have to buy two versions?
Just some ideas that could really help Sony do better. Of course what they really need to do is drop this DRM crap like a hot potato.

Re:will they do the smart thing?

[drinkypoo]

Will it also be a PVR? Will it have a memory stick slot so you can take your show straight from the PS3/PVR and put the on the PSP? Any chance that the PS3 will play UMD movies so you don't have to buy two versions? Just some ideas that could really help Sony do better. Of course what they really need to do is drop this DRM crap like a hot potato.

They will probably try the PVR thing again, but for less money. The unit almost assuredly is not coming with video capture hardware.

There is little to no chance that the PS3 will play UMD movies, which are on UMD, which you can't put in a CD/DVD/Blu-Ray/HD-DVD player, which all use a classical CD form factor.

Re:will they do the smart thing?

[LWATCDR]

NTSC video capture is actually pretty easy the tuner could be a bit more complex. It would just make sense to me to put a PVR right in the box if really want it to be a home media center. How about a transfer cable for the PSP so you could dump your UMD movies to the PS3? Probably will not happen since Sony REALLY wants to sell you the same data over and over and over again.

Re:will they do the smart thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sony has their hands full delivering on the features and promises already made, let alone the ones you've mentioned. Not going to happen.

Re:will they do the smart thing?

[thatguywhoiam]

The unit almost assuredly is not coming with video capture hardware.

If you mean, will it have analog-inputs, you are probably right. If you are referring to whether or not the processing/graphics hardware could handle it, it most assuredly can.

Re:will they do the smart thing?

[Manmademan]

The 60 gig drive in the system is said to be removable- how hard would it be to release say...a 100gig (or higher) "media edition" Drive with a tuner and capture software for those interested in making their PS3 a PVR?

Re:will they do the smart thing?

[Burpmaster]

Will it also be a PVR?

They have already mentioned that they want to do that, and if the hard disk is now standard, then my guess is that PVR capability would be made standard as well.

Will it have a memory stick slot so you can take your show straight from the PS3/PVR and put the on the PSP?

The smarter thing to do is to just use wireless networking to transfer the file at the PSP's 802.11b speed. I expect Sony to do this.

Any chance that the PS3 will play UMD movies so you don't have to buy two versions?

Given their high-definition hype, and the sub-DVD resolution of UMD, I don't expect them to support UMD play on a TV through any means. Also, it seems that 802.11b would not be fast enough to stream UMD, so it all comes down to whether the PSP is a Hi-Speed USB device.

This delay may have a silver lining...

[Androclese]

The release will be right in time for the Christmas shopping season; lots of disposable income being thrown around at that time.

The secret reason for the delay

[Anonymous Coward]

I have it on good authority that Sony is having trouble porting their x86-based rootkit to the cell architecture. No software will be released until they get a multi-threaded roootkit with decent performance.

PS3

[certel]

The harddrive is only calling for mods--Wicked! :) Additionally, running Linux is a great step in the right direction. Look forward to the release!

Analyst WHO?

[Anonymous Coward]

Every time someone quotes an analyst in any fashion is using a useless, worthless source. This is a person with no "street" credibility making guesses so please stop doing it. We the people, who play games as a life style and talk to other people who play games casually or constantly know a great deal more then any analyst. People are waiting for the PS3, knowing it will be good and trusting in a brand that hasn't failed them before. Common sense to us, a floating cloud to an analyst. Lets get this straight, Microsoft is the upstart and Sony is the brand with the established base. It's going to take a lot more then a delay for them to instantly fade out like those "analyst" are alluding to.

$500?

[plague3106]

4) At $500, why not just spend a few hundred more and get a PC for gaming (and much more)?

Re:$500?

[Valdrax]

Because it won't play PS3 games, duh.

Seriously, though, there are a good number of games for which the console controller are superior to a mouse and keyboard. No one released PC games that depend on a standardized controller because there isn't one that comes with them.

You won't see a Soulcaliber or a Dead or Alive for the PC. You won't see a console-style RPG for the PC which instead favors RPGs like Elder Scrolls and the Ultima series. PC racing games have always sucked, and so have the sports games.

If you like those genres, get a console. If you like exploration-based RPGs, RTS games, FPS games, etc. then get a PC because those games are better on a PC.

Re:$500?

[Anonymous Coward]

it is a PC

Re:$500?

[yanos]

> 4) At $500, why not just spend a few hundred more and get a PC for gaming (and much more)?

Because the games you want to play on a console are not coming to the PC? Have you seen a PC version of Shadow of the Colossus? Guitar Hero? ICO? FF? Resident Evil? God of War?

Why are PC gamers always say such things? I'm not gonna tell you to buy a console if you like playing FPS or RTS.

Re:$500?

[Half a dent]

Because I already have a PC and I crave a new toy! :-)

Re:$500?

[plague3106]

Good points. Personally I was bummed when they stopped porting the mortal kombats to PC. While there's no standardized controller, PC gamepads seem to have followed console gamepads pretty closely. Most PC games that support a game pad let you configure the pad or the keyboard.

Regardign console style RPG.. its been a while, but how exactly do you make an RPG console style? They ported FF7 to the PC and it played just fine for me. So I don't think its any technical limitations there.

Regarding sports / racing games... I tend to forget about these, since I find them boring regardless of platform. But I could see how they might not play well on a PC.. although if you have one of the newer pc game pads, I'd think it'd play about the same.

Re:$500?

[chromatic]

... how exactly do you make an RPG console style?

Add cutscenes and combat to a spreadsheet. (That should be easier with the Cell processor.)

Re:$500?

[PitaBred]

Because most people don't want to use a PC on their big-screen TV, and a PC is more temperamental than "stick disc in and hit power"?

Re:$500?

[Valdrax]

Regardign console style RPG.. its been a while, but how exactly do you make an RPG console style? They ported FF7 to the PC and it played just fine for me. So I don't think its any technical limitations there.

It's the limitations of consoles that define the difference instead of the limitations of PCs. Memory for maintaining the game world status and for saving character progress has been limited. There is no keyboard interface, so interactions with the world are limited. This means that the simulation-heavy style of PC RPG gaming doesn't really work out so well.

Instead, console RPGs focus on delivering a consistent story with varying attempts at making console-controllable combat fun. This is usually divided between the adventure RPG genre like the Ys series, Star Ocean 3, and the recent Tales games where some reflex skills are needed, strategy RPGs like Disgaea and Final Fantasy Tactics, and the more traditional mainstream RPG like the Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest series. Overall, though, the emphasis is on the plot.

This plot vs. simulation conflict is what leads PC gamers to decry that console RPGs are too linear and that leads console gamers to dislike PC RPGs for being too unfocused. They're both perfectly valid styles of game, but people who play one or the other tend to lump them all together and say that their way is the "true way."

Where do you think you're posting?

[PetiePooo]

If you have to choose between a solid platform that costs $300 (and already has a stable of games available) and a brand-new system that is two hundred bucks more with far fewer games, which one do you think most people will buy?

The one with Linux on it, obviously!

In all seriousness, that was a big factor in my personal decision to buy the - WRT54G wireless router
- NSLU2 storage server
- TiVo
- XBox (original)

Launch Date

[Arwing]

From what I read at Gamespot, PS3 is coming out WORLDWIDE in Nov. before Thanksgiving, and it will come with blu-ray. One thing I am not sure about is the 60gig HDD thing. The console will require it to play games but it may not come with the machine?! what kind of BS is that? It's the memory card crap all over again. They better not jackup the price for the HDD, it's only 60gig, and knowing $ony, it's gonna go for about 100 dollars!

Re:Launch Date

[Dan Ost]

According to Froogle, $100 for a 2.5inch 60G hard drive would be a steal. Average price seems to range from $130 to $170.

Re:Launch Date

[Anonymous Coward]

They better not jackup the price for the HDD, it's only 60gig, and knowing $ony, it's gonna go for about 100 dollars!

Actually in the article it mentioned that it would be a notebook hd. Taking a quick glance over at newegg.com at 60GB notebook hd's reveal prices generally ranging from 80-120 (one at about $70 and a couple over $120), so Sony charging $100 would be just about right (right now, I know prices will drop by the time PS3 ships).

Re:Launch Date

[flapdoddle]

Perhaps the PS3 will come with a Blu-Ray reader standard but include a 'knoppix' style Linux Blu-ray disk? Then real Linux fans could buy the expensive 60Gb optional disk drive...

Re:Launch Date

[Arwing]

I would assume if you buy bulk (in case of Sony, BIG bulks), or make special deal with the hdd makers, it would be cheaper than the stand alone units you can get on the market.

Linux?

[panic911]

I wonder how easy it will be to soft-mod a PS3 through Linux, so that it can boot burned games.

Re:Linux?

[wheany]

My guess: Not very.

Re:Linux?

[PyroX_Pro]

Have you seen the current status of the PSP's unsigned code protection? Cracked, Patched, Cracked, Patched, Cracked, Patched, Cracked, Cracked Better, A Shell added on, dual boot, downgrades, on and on. My guess: Easy

Interesting non-PS3 point in the article...

[Futaba-chan]

They're adding a PSOne emulator to the PSP! That should help fix the lack of compelling titles problem, as Metal Gear Solid and the entire Final Fantasy series up to FF IX (except III) will now be portable, plus Xenogears, Chrono Trigger, and lots more. Hooray for portable Aeris and Snake!

Re:Interesting non-PS3 point in the article...

[Rob T Firefly]

But will our old PS1 games be freely portable to use on this emulator, or will we have to buy them again in order to get them onto a memory stick via the indicated "e-distribution?"

Re:Interesting non-PS3 point in the article...

[Donniedarkness]

That's really cool, but how are you going to do that? Do you put the games on some sort of memory stick or something?

Re:Interesting non-PS3 point in the article...

[Futaba-chan]

As the article clearly states, you put the games on memory stick.

(Given that they're on memory stick, presumably, you just copy them from the CD onto the stick?)

Disadvantage: you need a memory stick with 1.2 GB of free space to fit all of Metal Gear Solid or Final Fantasy VII....

Re:Interesting non-PS3 point in the article...

[Donniedarkness]

Would those not be held on several memory disks (one for each CD that the game required)? Well, since you are putting them on a memory stick, the only issue is HOW you are supposed to get them from CD -> Memory stick. Surely you'll have to use some program...

Although, it would make a lot of sense for Sony to put the program out for free. This is a GREAT way to increase the sell of memory sticks (especially big ones!). I believe that Sony makes the memory sticks that the PSP uses...

Re:Interesting non-PS3 point in the article...

[Korexz]

Good thing I have a 2GB stick... ;)

Re:Interesting non-PS3 point in the article...

[Fred Or Alive]

The article mentions a download service, so I assume you just buy the games again and download them to your memory stick, rather than you ripping it yourself. Although I'd imagine if it's really an emulator, it'll be cracked in a matter of weeks...

Re:Interesting non-PS3 point in the article...

[Manmademan]

Disadvantage: you need a memory stick with 1.2 GB of free space to fit all of Metal Gear Solid or Final Fantasy VII....

Not necessarily. Multi disk games Like FFVII, FFVIII, Metal Gear, etc contained a lot of redundant data so you could do things like revisit earlier areas while on the last disc. compressing the game to a single format would eliminate the need for a lot of that redundant data.

Re:Interesting non-PS3 point in the article...

[Futaba-chan]

HOW you are supposed to get them from CD -> Memory stick. Surely you'll have to use some program...

PSOne games are distributed on regular garden variety CD-ROMs. The PSP looks like a regular USB storage device. You can just do a filesystem copy from the CD-ROM to the memory stick without any need for special software.

Re:Interesting non-PS3 point in the article...

[ivan256]

It's just a ploy to get us all to finally upgrade to a firmware version that hasn't had the copy protection cracked.

Besides, I'll bet money you can't actually play your Playstation games, but that you'll have to buy new copies instead.

Also: How can you list compelling titles for the Playstation and leave out Castlevania: SOTN?

Re:Interesting non-PS3 point in the article...

[apoc06]

ps1 games used cd media, and most games only took up a portion of that. longer rpgs and the like with lots of CG will be the worst to fit on a memory stick.

most games should comfortably fit onto a gigabyte memory stick though. sony recently announced that they are releasing a new 4 gig memory stick as well too. so that should help out. if you think ab it, pirates have released isos for the bulk of the psp library, only a select few are larger than one gig, and the UMD stores more than a gig per disc.

chances are we will find ps1 games slightly smaller and shorter than we thought they were at the time.

I can see it now...

[ntxb229]

The day PS3 is released, Microsoft drops the XBOX 360 price to $300 and releases Halo 3. Sony seems to be digging themselves into a deep hole.

slashdot fallacies

[Anonymous Coward]

sony drm = sony ps3

right, because corporations act as a single mind

and every group in large corporations is uniform and have the same philosophy and the same views about everything.
And the people who made the PS3 work in the same room with the people who handle sony's music and TV and cellphone businesses.

you fucking slashdrones will never really understand too many things, including linux.

BUT just keep posting! keep spitting out your stupid opinions and 'analysis' like it actually MEANS something.

you think I'm trolling, but you'd be just another groupthink moron if you modded me down.

Re:slashdot fallacies

[Guppy06]

So you accuse Slashdot, a grassroots message board, of groupthink, but do not believe that a top-down corporation is capable of the same?

And yet I get flamed for calling people like you "corporate apologists?"

Should Be Clear Why Developers Choose Sony :)

[GameEngineer]

Boom!!!

If there was any question about just how dead the 360 was yesterday, today it should be perfectly clear. With sales falling to only 160k units last month, I can't imagine how far they will fall by next month.

This holiday season is going to be a battle between Sony and Nintendo the likes of which have never been seen before in the console market.

The holdup of the AACS stuff for BluRay means that Sony is stockpiling the components for the PS3 and will have millions of units ready to ship by November this year. Sony could have shipped about 500k to Japan in June/July but decided to go with a worldwide release in November. Too bad for Japan, no change for the US, and good news for Europe.

Linux being standard on all PS3s is wonderful. There are going to be 120+ million Linux machines out there serving as people's media servers over the next five years. Nice.

E3 is going to be insane with Sony and Nintendo focusing on showing off their system's games for launch.

The final bit of info for the battle between Sony and Nintendo is what price is the Revolution going to be released at.

We are about to enter the golden age of console gaming in a few months...

Re:Should Be Clear Why Developers Choose Sony :)

[edwdig]

The holdup of the AACS stuff for BluRay means that Sony is stockpiling the components for the PS3 and will have millions of units ready to ship by November this year. Sony could have shipped about 500k to Japan in June/July but decided to go with a worldwide release in November. Too bad for Japan, no change for the US, and good news for Europe.

Or it could mean Sony is delaying all manufacturing and taking the time to upgrade the manufacturing plants. It would certainly drop the cost of the PS3 if Sony was able to get in a die shrink before launch.

Re:Should Be Clear Why Developers Choose Sony :)

[cliffski]

your kidding. for $500 I can almost buy a PC, why buy a proprietary games machine that hogs the TV instead?
Besides, all Ive seen as far as ps3 games go is pre-rendered FMV pretending to be a game. I'll pass.

Re:Should Be Clear Why Developers Choose Sony :)

[GameEngineer]

"Besides, all Ive seen as far as ps3 games go is pre-rendered FMV pretending to be a game. I'll pass."

Pathetic.

Why would you post something so obviously false?

Re:Should Be Clear Why Developers Choose Sony :)

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't the article say that final dev kits would ship to developers in June? How could they ship 500K units in June if the developers won't get the final kits till June? If the PS3 were ready to go in June then the devs would have the final hardware already. They don't. It makes no sense for Sony to hold back the final kits till June for no reason. If they hardware is done they would give the devs the final kits so the launch games would be spectactular. The PS3 launch will be like any other launch. One or two great titles, a few good titles and then a handfull of ordinary so-so games.

Re:Should Be Clear Why Developers Choose Sony :)

[Anonymous Coward]

Go away all you astro-turfing assholes. (on both sides of the fanboy fence!)

Get off this board. Leave. I know you won't, but people should realize
how polluted the web is becoming with the glut of posting from people
whose point of view is bought and paid for.

For any of you folk not familiar with this type of shilling see:
http://www.penny-arcade.com/news/show/21589

We received the following from a young man who we will call "Mr. Smith."

(CW)TB

Hey guys,

I interviewed for a guerilla marketing business in San Francisco that targeted web forums.

I was told that if I accepted the job, I was to have at LEAST 50 identities on as many forums as I could muster (they wanted 100 eventually), with a goal of 5 posts an hour. The posts had to be well thought out, and the idea was that I was to establish multiple identities with a history on the forums, so that when the timing was right a well written but subtly placed marketing post could be finessed in. And regular visitors would recognize the post as coming from a long time poster.

They had 12 people working there full time, and were hiring 10 more. You do the math. No wait, I'll do it for you: that's 880 posts a day (if minimum was met). However he said the better ones could do around 8 or 10 an hour. And they had different "verticals" so there was the sports guy, and the games guy, the hentai, excuse me I mean anime guy, etc.

But the most critical point was this: develop and integrate the identity. No random "HEY EB GAMES IS AWESOME BUY THIS" stuff.

Kinda spooky.

Didn't take the job. It was a fucking mill.

Re:Should Be Clear Why Developers Choose Sony :)

[amliebsch]

Why would you post something so obviously false?

And just how the hell do you know what he's seen, Mr. Game Engineer?

Re:Should Be Clear Why Developers Choose Sony :)

[InsaneGeek]

Do you have any idea how expensive it is to "stockpile" components? If Sony was doing what you are saying, it would cost them millions (with the S). Heck if Sony were to simply put that cash they would spend to "stockpile" components this early, into a very low interest personal saving bank account they could probably make a couple of million on that by itself. The cost of stockpiling components early would cost Sony dearly to do, there's a reason that the average lifespan that Dell "owns" a component is measured in minutes rather than hours or days.

Everybody is saying that Sony can't buy components today for $500, and has to sell it at a loss. So using the number that people say of $800 for today's component cost and using your 500k units number for June that means; Sony would dump out 400 million dollars to sit on equipment for 5 months. I can get 6 month CD's between 4-5% APY, just sticking that cash into a CD for half a year would yield them ~8 million dollars (won't go into calculating APY on intervals, because you get the picture). That much cash for basically doing nothing, by simply not purchasing anything for a month they get more than a million dollars in benefit, you can even double the effect as by spending the money early not only did you not gain a million from the bank, you have a million dollars less than before in equipment that aren't using.

Linux.... yeah, I'm sure they are going to come out with a linux media server that works with the DRM... OK you just go along with that. Linux is going to be a niche option that won't allow you to use the benefit of high-def digital output, blu-ray, or gaming. It's going to be niche and stay niche.

Re:Should Be Clear Why Developers Choose Sony :)

[Anonymous Coward]

except that NOWHERE does it state that the PS3 -comes- with Linux. Merely that it supports it. The PS2 "supports" Linux as well.

Re:Should Be Clear Why Developers Choose Sony :)

[amrust]

Speaking of "polluting the web": why rip and repost the Penny Arcade article in full, if you already supplied a hyperlink to it?

Launch without availabilty?

[tgibbs]

Sony could follow Microsoft's example, and launch with almost no availability of the actual console. Until very recently, the XBox 360 was virtually unattainable for anybody who was not on a waiting list months before the launch. This sort of limited launch makes good strategic sense:

It convinces people who might otherwise buy a competing console to wait in hopes of actually getting their hands on a PS3.

It reassures investors and developers with an on-time launch

Long lines of people and inflated prices on EBay gives the impression of high demand and a successful launch no matter how limited the actual supply is.

It minimizes the loss on the console hardware. These new consoles are almost certainly sold at a significant loss on the hardware, and with only a few launch titles, there's not much in the way of licensing revenue early on to offset that. The more they sell, the more they lose. The smart strategy is to release as little actual hardware as possible while still maintaining the illusion of a product launch and waiting for prices on components--such as that new Blu-Ray drive--to drop a bit.

[hurrah|hooray]

[Bromskloss]

Btw, what kind of lame lameness filter is it Slashdot has that won't let you post a comment with a subject line only! I clearly have nothing more to say here.

Re:[hurrah|hooray]

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe that was the filter working as intended, for once.

bzzt... wrong

[shoptroll]

"More interestingly, the article claims that PS3 will ship with a 60-gig hard drive, built-in network card, and Linux!"

Wrong! They have not said if the system will include the hard-drive, although they are encouraging developers to make use of it.

Between hearing that, the downloadable games, the new online service, etc. I'm really wondering how on earth they're ever going to ship the silly thing if they're going to try and add ever new feature than MS and Nintendo come up with.

Re:bzzt... wrong

[iapetus]

Wrong! They have said that the hard drive is required and that developers are to assume that it is present.

While the wording does leave the loophole that it may be required for any meaningful use of the system but not present in the pack (like a memory card with the PS2), that would be a difficult thing to push to retail. It was bad enough when the Xbox 360 came out with the HD-less core pack which nobody wanted.

Re:bzzt... wrong

[shoptroll]

They still shipped the PS2 without a hard drive knowing full well that Final Fantasy XI was coming down the pike for the system. That didn't stop them from including it.

Re:bzzt... wrong

[iapetus]

Final Fantasy XI was a single game which ended up being bundled with a hard drive, and it was a long way down the pike - over two years. In this case common functionality that's at the core of Sony's plan for PS3 depends on it from day one. Hence the slide at their presentation titled "HDD is required!" (their exclamation mark, not mine...)

Re:bzzt... wrong

[shoptroll]

*shrugs* They built that bay in the back just for the hard drive. Also weren't the PS2 Linux kits available before FFXI? Did those make use of the HD as well?

Re:bzzt... wrong

[iapetus]

Not in a way that was compatible with use of the HD for games. The Linux kit was effectively the PS2's version of the Net Yaroze rather than something that was expected to be of interest to the vast majority of console owners.

Weird project managers at sony

[British]

After reading this summary(not TFA) and another summary of the new things for PSP(GPS, eye toy, and several other non-game-related things), I am questioning the proejct managers at sony. And so the dance of the developers versus marketers begins.

It is obvious they are eager to stuff as many non-video-game related features and now buzzwords(Linux, DRM, Cell,Blu-Ray etc) into this mystical console. Gee, and we wonder why there are so many delays. With every new feature they want to stuff in,it's going to just add to the delays(development, research, testing, etc) when MS has already released the 360. Please tell me the PS3 is going to have AJAX support and RSS feeds, please! And of course, any at-launch PS3 titles won't fully harness the power of the console, not until the developers get totally familiar with it.

The video games aspect of the PS3 seems to be almost silenced due to the hype of other things. But you know what? Go ahead, since it seems to be driving prices of PS2 games down, so I can pick them up for cheap and enjoy them.

What if God himself made a console even he could not get out the door & make games for? Well, we know the title of that console: Playstation 3. The consumers are that dog waiting at the train station in Japan for its owner(PS3) to arrive.

Microsoft's Xbox 'Toy Story' Claim

[GameEngineer]

http://news.com.com/2100-1040-250632.html

"One of the basic premises of the Xbox is to put the power in the hands of the artist," Blackley said, which is why Xbox developers "are achieving a level of visual detail you really get in 'Toy Story.'"

I can't believe there are still people trying to attribute Microsoft's stupid Toy Story graphics claim about the Xbox to Sony in 2006...

Re:Microsoft's Xbox 'Toy Story' Claim

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, you're technically correct. Sony only claimed to be able to render in real-time the prerendered cutscenes from Final Fantasy VIII. (Not surprisinly, it couldn't, beyond a rigged demo shown at E3.)

It's pretty much the same thing, except Japan-centric and not US-centric, which is why everyone usually remembers the Toy Story quote. Most Americans know what Toy Story looked like, it makes a better reference point than "the cutscenes in that Japanese game none of you played".

Re:Microsoft's Xbox 'Toy Story' Claim

[GameEngineer]

The only PS2 demo that wasn't easily surpassed was the face demo. Of course, there were no PS2 games that consisted entirely of just a face...

Give it a rest, Dreamcast/Xbox fanboys have been trying to make that claim for the past five years. The Net is filled with screenshots from the PS2 E3 demos showing just how bad they compare to the actual shipping games on the system.

You don't want to go there...the Net is filled with the carcasses of foolish fanboys who have tried to make your silly claim many times in the past. Don't make me break out the links to the PS2 E3 demo screenshots...

Re:Microsoft's Xbox 'Toy Story' Claim

[Anonymous Coward]

I love how you made an account with the nick "GameEngineer" to do nothing more than continuously hype Sony and slam all the other consoles. You must be the biggest Sony shill on the planet. Are you being paid to say this crap?

Re:Microsoft's Xbox 'Toy Story' Claim

[GameEngineer]

Wait till the Revolution news starts...

Tell you what, why don't you do Slashdot a favor and go cry back with your buds on teamxbox about how life isn't fair.

Re:Microsoft's Xbox 'Toy Story' Claim

[Anonymous Coward]

Whatever they're paying you to hype for them, it's too much. You're a crappy shill, and I'm buying a 360 now.

Re:Microsoft's Xbox 'Toy Story' Claim

[Anonymous Coward]

He may be a shill, but who's he shilling for?

Re:Microsoft's Xbox 'Toy Story' Claim

[PixelScuba]

Maybe, but I'm upset that as of 2006 I can't "jack into the Matrix".

Blaze of Glory

[blueZhift]

I actually love how Kutaragi-san is putting it all on the line. Global launch, standard hard drive, free online service... Oooh Weee! Sony is either going to astound the analysts with one of the most successful product launches ever, or go out in a blaze of glory that may cripple the company. Either way, you gotta love the balls to the wall attitude. This is going to be really interesting to watch.

Re:Blaze of Glory

[SetupWeasel]

Free "Basic" online.

At this point, I would bet on a Live-like model: free to connect and buy stuff, pay to actually play.

Re:Blaze of Glory

[Richthofen80]

Either way, you gotta love the balls to the wall attitude

Haha. Balls to the wall? with what? Free online? Like xbox360? How about worldwide launch? Like xbox360? The only thing they're doing different is making hard drive required (which, by the way, was the dumbest move by microsoft... so many developers were able to extend the life of the original xbox because they could use the hard drive as swap space, not requiring it is stupid). PS3's main draw will be if it has better online integration of games or if it is a better media center type machine.

PS3 is late, and that sucks. Sony has a lot of exclusive games that people will want better versions of. I have an xbox360, and I love it, but I can't get guitar hero, and a lot of other titles that seem to end up PS2 only. Although a lot of games are released simultaneously on all major platforms nowadays, which might mean that, like i said above, it may come down to hardware coolness/non-games stuff as opposed to what it used to come down to, which was game library depth.

Re:Blaze of Glory

[ThinkWeak]

If you read their announcment, it is stated that the "basic level" of the online system is free. I have no idea what it will contain, but I would assume it is IDENTICAL to the silver version of Live for the Xbox 360 - which is free. It doesn't look like Sony's planning on revolutionizing anything, more like they're trying to play catch-up. I'm sure Sony will just dominate the US market with this product that will probably be available for about 200 dollars more than what the premium 360 will sell for at the time...

Re:Blaze of Glory

[woolio]

Sony is either going to astound the analysts with one of the most successful product launches ever, or go out in a blaze of glory that may cripple the company.

Personally, I would prefer the latter. Companies don't deserve to stay in business after doing grossly illegal and unethical actions [Sony DRM], regardless of how they settle the lawsuits.

On a similar note, the car companies seem to get away with far worse, with little/no reprimand. (Ford Fiesta anyone? Why does Ford still exist?)

NetHack

[jonv]

If it is running Linux a next gen console version of Nethack cannot be far away!

Delay cause...

[DarthChris]

Were they trying to make a Linux rootkit?

A large pinch of salt

[simong]

Seeing as Sony have never officially supported anything but Windows for any of their computer hardware, and have never released the APIs for them either, I can't take that seriously. What it *could* be is a method of demonstrating one of the virtualisation technologies included in the P3, say a virtual PC, without the overhead of a Windows license. Of course, if anyone can prove me wrong, I'm happy to stand corrected.

Re:A large pinch of salt

[iapetus]

Sony officially released a Linux kit for PS2. I'd say that counts as a fairly hefty precedent...

Just give Sony a vender section already

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, we get it, Sony wants to pimp their amazingly expensive and amazingly vaporous PS3 on Slashdot. You added the Vendors section for a reason. Please move the Slashvertisements to the Vendors section!

How many do we need?

[chinton]

How many stories do we need about this? I'm waiting for the Sunday Supplement -- "PS3: Still Delayed".

The real problem

[jtalerico]

We are all missing the big problem here...

The PS2 is still going to be $149!!! Gah, I was hoping to at least upgrade from the N64.

Re:The real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Then get a Gamecube...

YAPP

[Anonymous Coward]

Your post made me think these things are long overdue for an acronym:

YAPP - Yet Another PS3 Post

YAPA - Yet Another PS3 Article

YAPS - Yet Another PS3 Story

I think YAPP takes the cake.

Re:YAPP

[sstation]

I first had something like that in my title then took it out cause i was doing the YAPS3 which just didn't sound right to me ;)
I like YAPP :P

Running with linux

[Programmer_In_Traini]

Ship with linux huh ?

Hum... that will make things interesting, knowing that 360 is like...the absolute opposite.

One thing is for sure, hackers wont have too much trouble making linux run on this one :-)

Re:Running with linux

[ladoga]

Cell has been running linux for quite some time.
http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS6219524044.html http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS9098337586.html

trouble in paradise

[the computer guy nex]

The 360, after this month when GR:Advanced Warfighter and Elder Scrolls: Oblivion launch, will hit the point of having titles in nearly every genre that can push consoles out the door.

Sports: Plenty. College Hoops 2k6 is the best IMO.
Racing: PGR3.
FPS: C0D2 and GRAW.
RPG: Oblivion.
Adventure (dying genre unfortunately): Kameo.


The 360 is missing a MMORPG (in the works, probably won't do well anyhow) and a strategy game. The major genre's are covered.

with Halo3 and a price cut coinciding with the PS3 launch, along with an obscene $500 price tag, they are in trouble.

Re:trouble in paradise

[Anonymous Coward]

who's in trouble? MSFT or Sony? I'd say MSFT is. The 360 is barely outselling the Gamecube.

Re:trouble in paradise

[Anonymous Coward]

The 360, after this month when GR:Advanced Warfighter and Elder Scrolls: Oblivion launch, will hit the point of having titles in nearly every genre that can push consoles out the door.

Neither of which are exclusives, and it's exclusives that sell a console. As for every genre? What about driving sim (GT), Eastern-RPG (FF), arcade flight sim (Ace Combat), stealth (Metal Gear, Thief, Splinter Cell), Gran Theft Auto (it might as well be it's own genre since it sells more than all the games of many other genres combined)

Sports: Plenty. College Hoops 2k6 is the best IMO.
Non-exclusive. Hundreds of sports games are out on every system.

Racing: PGR3.
An arcadish racer that isn't even truly high-def! It's been bashed even by Xbox fans who say the actual game is inferior to PGR2.

FPS: C0D2 and GRAW.
Neither exclusive. Both are also Console FPS, which is only a small fraction of the market.

RPG: Oblivion.
Not exclusive.

Adventure (dying genre unfortunately): Kameo.
There's absolutely nothing special about that game. It was rated average and sold average. There are lots of better adventure games on other systems.

with Halo3 and a price cut coinciding with the PS3 launch
Halo 3 is irrelevant. It's yet ANOTHER console FPS - which is probably the only market the Xbox actually dominates in. It will not result in people buying an Xbox 360 over a PS3 because the people who want Halo are already buying a 360. And if Halo 3 actually launches at the same time as the PS3, it will be dwarfed by the PS3 launch blitz.

along with an obscene $500 price tag
Can we please have a source from Sony on that price? If you can't provide one, then STFU.

they are in trouble.
With the Xbox 360 selling only 160,000 units last month, I certainly don't see why either Sony or Nintendo are in trouble.

Re:trouble in paradise

[metrunecs]

Last I heard, pretty much all these bases are covered. Forza is an inevitability (racing sim), Blue Dragon and Lost Odossey are on the way (eastern RPG), Blazing Angels coming out this month (flight sim), Splinter Cell on the way (stealth), and all the Grand Theft Autos already on Xbox, no reason for them to not show up on 360. And if you read the article $500 was mentioned once or twice.

Re:trouble in paradise

[Anonymous Coward]

Forza is an inevitability (racing sim),
But when? Could be years. And it's no GT (compare sales)

Blue Dragon and Lost Odossey are on the way (eastern RPG)
But it's not FF/DQ. They're new franchises and could very well suck. You saying they will be comparable to FF/DQ is like a Sony fanboy saying Killzone 2 will be better than Halo 3.

Blazing Angels coming out this month (flight sim)
Not exclusive, and it's a new franchise so it will most likely not be a system seller.

Splinter Cell on the way (stealth)
Not exclusive. It will be on the PS3/PS2/Xbox/PC/etc., and the PS3 will have that other stealth game (MGS4) exclusively.

and all the Grand Theft Autos already on Xbox, no reason for them to not show up on 360.
GTA4 has only been confirmed for the PS3 so far. Regardless, even if it does end up on the 360 it will be a timed exclusive for PS3 (like all the others were for PS2). Check the sales numbers of GTA on the PS2 vs. Xbox and you'll see that over 95% of sales were on the PS2.

And if you read the article $500 was mentioned once or twice.
Which is speculation and was not said at anytime by Sony. But hey, if it was in an article on the net it must be true!

the ADAM computer

[mrpeebles]

More and more, the PS3 is reminding me of the ADAM computer. For those who don't remember, it was the successor to the colecovision video game system, and it was going to be both a video game system, AND an affordable home computer system. Unfortunately, it tried to do too many things, didn't do enough of them well enough for the money, and flopped. (Also, the controllers attached to the SIDE of the main box, so that when you pulled them out, little kid that you were, you broke the machine.) Anyway, these similarities may only be superficial, but a much better comparison may be the LISA computer by apple. We will see...

Re:the ADAM computer

[TeamSPAM]

So you're saying the PS3 won't sell that hot and Sony will come out with some derivative product that will be considered superior to it's competitors, but will only end up with a moderate or tiny ammount of the market share? >;-)

Re:the ADAM computer

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually owned one and they sucked. Funniest thing was mine was one of the infamous ones that had some cheese melted on the components that did NOT effect the performance. I did look inside and didn't touch a thing. It stilled worked but we eventually chucked it when we got a real PC.

Head start?

[BrookHarty]

Most places I seen the xbox 360 on sale has 3-4 games on display. And the 399 unit lacks options, so the 499 option looks more complete.

I think I'll stick with the PS2 with fun cheap games I can pick up for 10 bux at gamestop.

Re:Head start?

[Keeper]

Most places I seen the xbox 360 on sale has 3-4 games on display

You think that nothing is going to be released over the next 6 months? As a side note, most stores I've been to have about a dozen titles on display.

And the 399 unit lacks options, so the 499 option looks more complete.

That makes absolutely no sense. The top of the line unit has no options, so you'll get a more expensive baseline unit instead?

Re:Bah Sony. Bah...

[HTH NE1]

Shipping with Linux does not balanace out unlawful virus DRM root kits.

Think about it though: shipping with Linux might just create a vector for undermining the DRM on the Blu-Ray HD movies playable on this console.

Face it: consumer electronics running Linux is a big neon "hack me" sign that you don't get with other proprietary consumer electronics operating systems.

They're figuring out how...

[Anonymous Coward]

to keep the user from having to type a bunch of commands to do anything they want with it.

their numbers == DAMN SHORT SUPPLY

[Harlockjds]

Aparently the following nubmers came out of the press conf

1) 1 million units manufactured per month
2) 6 million units available by the end of Q4 (march 07)

Assuming those numbers are right they are going to start manufacturing in October for the November release and their are going to be around 1 million units available world wide for the November launch.

Is it just me or does that seem REALLY DAMN low? 1 mill systems doesn't seem like enough for just the Japanese market, not to mention the Americas and Europe.

Plus we all know what PS first Gen hardware is like... this is going to make the 360 release look like a cakewalk.

Re:their numbers == DAMN SHORT SUPPLY

[PitaBred]

A million is actually a hell of a lot. The population of the USA is less than 300 million people, and the vast majority of those aren't gamers, and even if a large fraction of them are, they aren't going to be getting a $500 system on a whim, or are going to be sharing a system with roommates/siblings/children/whoever. 1-6 million units actually sounds just about right, especially for a launch. Hell, a previous poster said that the 360 hasn't even gotten through all 150k units shipped to Japan.

Re:their numbers == DAMN SHORT SUPPLY

[Harlockjds]

the psp sold 600,000 units in it's first week in the usa alone. those sales were considered 'low' and were only in one region.

1 million is a tiny number of units.

Re:their numbers == DAMN SHORT SUPPLY

[be-fan]

In the 2000 Japanese launch of the PS2, 980,000 units were sold the first weekend. In the 2000 United States launch, 510,000 units were sold in the first 24 hours. 1 million for a worldwide launch is nothing.

Curious

[RyoShin]

If Linux support is going to be native (instead of requiring a bunch of hacking and modding), does this mean they are open to indie game development?

With their PSOnline service (or whatever they're calling it,) they could give low-brow development kits (or sell them for a small fee,) and all people to upload games to a server. Having a lot of free, smaller games would really add to the service.

Re:Curious

[prockcore]

If Linux support is going to be native (instead of requiring a bunch of hacking and modding), does this mean they are open to indie game development?

What did it mean for the PS2? The PS2 harddrive came with a Linux Kit... that's a native, Sony-supported Linux. It didn't mean anything. The fact that no one seems to remember it is pretty telling.

Re:Curious

[killtherat]

It would be very simple to control indie game developement. Remeber, the Nvidia drivers (i think that's what PS3 will run) are closed source, even for regular x86 based systems. All they have to do is make sure that the 3D acceleration portion of the NVidia driver can only be activated by registered programs that run on the PS3.
If you don't have good 3D support, you can't do much for good indie games.
So short of the nv module (open source nvidia driver) gaining 3D support, they can still control game licences.

Head Start? Perhaps not...

[Mark Gillespie]

Not sure how the XB360 has a head start. In the UK, shops have plenty on the shelves, and are not selling in any great quantity, and when I was in NYC last weekend, GameStop even had stock of 2nd user XB360 consoles!! Sounds like the initial rush to pick up the latest gadget, end users are slowly realising it was a rushed to market product, with lacklustre game line-up. Whilst i'm sure the quality of games will improve over the coming months, Summer is not a good time for console sales, so I don't anticipate many consoles being sold between now and PS3 launch in November...

Where's the GPL source code to the Linux kernel?

[billybob2]

Does that mean that the hardware drivers that interface the Sony PlayStation 3 will be released as Free and Open Source Software under the GNU General Public License?

If so, where can I download the modified Linux kernel?

Can't wait

[pan0k]

Can't wait for the ridiculous packages that cost thousands of dollars offer by every store (Xbox360 packages), the incredible price on EBAY(still remember PS2 going for 11000 british pounds - roughly $20,000), and the prisonner treatment by BestBuy (when I buy my Xbox360, I was escorted - I think they forget to handcup me - to a special location).

It's never been about Slashdot, grasshopper

[Moraelin]

Sony doesn't actually give a flying fsck about Slashdot or Linux as such.

Sony needs Linux on their console for the same reason they've needed it on the PS2: to dodge import taxes. I don't know what the situation is in the USA, but in the EU if it's a general purpose computer, it doesn't get taxed the way toys do. And EU is a games and consoles market of the same order of magnitude as the USA (if marginally smaller), and twice as big as Japan. So being able to say "see, you can boot this CD on it and have a general purpose OS that makes it a general purpose computer" is gonna make Sony a _lot_ of money in dodged import taxes.

Even better, what this means is that it can be more competitive with Microsoft and Nintendo who chose not to dodge those taxes. Sony needs to take much less of a loss to give those a nasty price competition.

And as the final exhibit: notice how Sony never actually bothered marketting or even selling (more than theoretically) that Linux they've flaunted all along for the PS2. They _didn't_ really want you to play Tux Racer on their subsidized machine.

Think about it this way: they sell the consoles at a loss and make the money from games. Each console bought just to run Linux and troll Slashdot in Mozilla is for Sony just a loss. Each console that you run gnometris (Gnome's tetris clone) or kshisen on in Linux, instead of buying a game from Sony, is just a loss. It's not something they want you to do, but a nasty risk they're willing to take, in the hope that they'll lose less with that than they gain by dodging customs.

So basically, don't let that ego blind you. We nerds like to pretend that the world revolves around us, and Sony would bend over backwards to please Slashdot. In practice, Sony couldn't care less about Slashdot. It's just a business decision, in which Slashdot played _no_ role whatsoever.

Re:It's never been about Slashdot, grasshopper

[MBCook]

I'd like to see they make it so I can use Linux to develop my own games for the PS3 that I could share with my friends. Give me OpenGL, a good 2D library, and some good documentation and I'll be happy. It's OK if my games would only look PS quality or less, I'd still be happy.

By limiting it like that, they don't run any risks of piracy (same kind of thing they did with running PS2 Linux on top of a managed microkernel), but they foster development (hold contests!), good will, and people gaining skills.

I've asked for something like this with the Revolution on /. and was replied by someone "in the know" that I could be "assured" that Nintendo would be doing this. Either way, I would love it.

Now I've never heard of that European tax (very interesting), but giving people the ability to develop on it would go a long way to proving it was not just a game machine.

That said, wouldn't all Sony's "you can use it as a DVR and home media server and PSP dock and...." be enough to dodge the "video game machine" tax?

Re:It's never been about Slashdot, grasshopper

[Moraelin]

I'm not a lawyer or an accountant, so I only know the bits that were in the news. And according to the news, Linux was _the_ defense Sony used to get the PS2 classified as a "computer", which in turn was the defense they used so they don't need to pay customs. So I'd assume they considered that necessary in some way.

Actually -- again, bearing in mind that I'm no lawyer or accountant -- the thing here is that for that kind of taxes, e.g., VAT, it's not that toys or video game machines alone get some extra-high tax. There is no "video game machine tax" as such. It's that goods are divided into broad groups which get different taxes, with the stuff considered essential getting a tax break. E.g., you pay less VAT for food, an essential thing, than you pay for selling a TV, which is considered less essential.

Apparently at some point computers were deemed important enough to get some form of tax or customs break. Other things, such as video recorders or whatnot don't get it.

So it wasn't exactly Sony dodging some extra "video game machine tax", but rather having to fit one of the definitions that get a break. Since they can't define their machine as "food", for example, (or not without getting laughed at), they went for defining it as a "computer".

Re:It's never been about Slashdot, grasshopper

[Anonymous Coward]

"Good documentation"? PS2 Linux lacked that. Hell, the distro itself was a pile of trash.

Re:It's never been about Slashdot, grasshopper

[SScorpio]

And as the final exhibit: notice how Sony never actually bothered marketting or even selling (more than theoretically) that Linux they've flaunted all along for the PS2. They _didn't_ really want you to play Tux Racer on their subsidized machine.

As someone who has purchased and still owns the Linux kit for the PS2, I'd have to say that yes Sony didn't really market the device. But you could easily optain it by going to their website and order it right off playstation.com. Sure it wasn't as easily as walking into a store and buying it, but it was never meant to be.

The Linux Kit was meant for Hobbiest to develop and run code on their PS2s, and it in that it successed. Sony even went so far as to include 6 out of the 7 reference manuals that come with the official development station that runs over $10,000. So no you could go and program your own PS2 games and release them to your friends (unless they also had the Linux Kit). But it was a good way to play with the hardware and try out coding for the vector units. It was definately a step up from the old Net Yazrois(sp?) which was the black PSX that you could run 256k programs off your computer by uploading them via a serial port.

As for why Sony even developed the Linux Kit? Sony Broadband adapter interface that was only released in Japan which became the new system interface after you installed an HDD was based off Linux, hell they included the modified source on the disks you used to install it. So while you might think of Sony as some big evil company, at least they were respecting the GPL.

Re:It's never been about Slashdot, grasshopper

[IamTheRealMike]

What a weird idea. You realise that whether something is classified as a toy or not is entirely up to the tax man, right?

The fact that it has a general purpose OS on it won't make much difference to the Inland Revenues eyes if it's marketed as a games console, which it will be. And of course you can make Linux into something that's not general purpose quite easily. I've met one of the people who work on PlayStation Linux (she's giving a talk at LugRadio Live in the UK soon, so if you're near Wolverhampton at that time come along), and the she gave some very sound reasons why they did Linux on the PlayStation. Obviously they were never concerned about people playing Tetris on Linux, there were other motivations.

I guess you could argue Sony would never tell their own staff that the work was for a tax dodge, but Linux for the PS2 came out after the PS2 did anyway.

Re:It's never been about Slashdot, grasshopper

[MBCook]

That's what I heard, which I why I put it in there.

My understanding was you got a linux "manual", and the documentation on the Emotion Engine and other chips in the PS2, and left to do it all yourself.

I'm looking for libraries to manage all that and good documention on them.

Re:It's never been about Slashdot, grasshopper

[Hitto]

Microsoft sell nice, cheap games using live arcade. People are content.
Nintendo well sell classic, cheap, and maybe new'n'nice too games thanks to the WFC. People will be like "whoa, cool!"

SONY doesn't give a fuck. They'll bundle linux and say "oops, by the way, didja know you could run EMULATORS IN LINUX?"
The people will be all like "O RLY IM TOTALLY BUYING A PS3 TO PLAY OLD SNES GAMEZ, LOLOL", and they'll rush to the PS3.

You don't believe me? Okay, how many of you bought a very expensive GBASNESGENESIS, er, I mean, PSP?

Re:It's never been about Slashdot, grasshopper

[EoinOL]

Sony needs Linux on their console for the same reason they've needed it on the PS2: to dodge import taxes. I don't know what the situation is in the USA, but in the EU if it's a general purpose computer, it doesn't get taxed the way toys do.

That was true last generation.

However, this tax on games consoles as opposed to computers no longer exists.

Re:It's never been about Slashdot, grasshopper

[apoc06]

if i remember correctly, the linux kit did not allow you to play commercial games. since each ps2 was sold at a loss, each linux kit represented a loss that sony was guaranteed to never recoup through software sales. i think it was nice of them to offer it at all.

if they offered the kit in brick and mortar stores, you could be sure that someone would probably pick one up by accident for their kid. can you imagine the frustration xmas morning when they discover it wont play any games?

Re:It's never been about Slashdot, grasshopper

[Slithe]

The Linux kit included a 40 GB hard drive, a network adapter, a monitor cable with audio jack, a usb keyboard and mouse, and two DVDs with software. You had to buy a PS2 separately, and when you wanted to play a 'real' game, you just plugged-in the controller, put the game disc in, and powered on the PS2. The Linux kit did not make any permanent changes to your system. If they sold the Linux kit in stores, it would be sold as an 'accessory.'

Re:It's never been about Slashdot, grasshopper

[apoc06]

my apologies. it must be the original ps1 net yaroze im confusing it with then.

Re:It's never been about Slashdot, grasshopper

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't expect PS3's Linux implementation to be any different. Like someone else said, they're mostly in it for the tax break more than anything.

One could hope that Nintendo will provide a free SDK (it's been hinted that they'll make it a lot easier for indies to develop for the system), and possibly make back profit by letting people sell their creations through the same online service that is selling the old NES/SNES/N64 games, but with a portion of the money going to Nintendo. That would be terrific, but as of right now it's just another possiblity.

Re:It's never been about Slashdot, grasshopper

[SScorpio]

I'm not sure about the yaroze, but I believe it did play original games. The Linux Kit supposedly wasn't able to share the HDD with games; however, there were ways around it. And since no games really used the HDD outside of Japan it wasn't a major issue.

Re:It's never been about Slashdot, grasshopper

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you ever consider that PS3 is so complex system that it requires a real operating system? PS2 was an embedded system, which didn't have things like memory protection, memory allocation management, processes and threads. Do you know how much resources it takes for a developer to restructure a whole game codebase for an exotic platform like this?

Programming on the PS2 was like writing enterprise software using a symbolic assembler, while on the Xbox you had a real OS (NT) and a great IDE (VS).

Developers don't want to write low level device drivers for every platform out there, they want to make games. Easy (aka cost-effective) development process attracts developers and publishers.

won't buy one

[shummer_mc]

I won't buy Sony anything. The money all goes to the corporation, whether or not it's the gaming division that generates it.... Besides, $400 is stupid for a video game system/BluRay player. Dumb. I could buy a Nintendo AND an DVD player. I just don't think it's worth the money.

I'm actually interested in the Nintendo controller. I like the idea that the controller could be used to improve the interactivity of the games. That could be so fun, it's mind-boggling.

So, I won't buy M$ (too much money) and I won't buy $ony (same reason). The price points are just insane. The Nintendo box pushes my limits, but at least it's got potential to break new ground... Oh, yeah, and the company still pushes GAMEPLAY as the most important aspect of the experience-- that's a key point, too.

It will be profitable

[mpapet]

*If* they make Q4, they'll be able to set the terms and conditions of selling their console to any retailer that matters. The retailers will hate it, but can't say no.

They may sell the console below their BOM cost, but I'm sure they will save 10's of millions by setting the terms of sales with the retailers.

Note, most retailers make substantial money simply charging slot, promotional fees, and any other fee they can dream up. That's why nearly all single products from a single vendor tend to vanish after a few months on the shelf. If it's a really good product, the larger brand with many products already on the shelf simply copies it and forces them out.

Something strange in all this...

[wandazulu]

So the lateness has to do with DRM. Well, that's great and all, but that doesn't explain why nobody has seen real code running on mostly-real PS3s. If all was fine and good with this exception, I would think you'd have seen a lot of playable demos at the various shows; they wouldn't have to show the *final* machine (wasn't it Microsoft showing off the 360 games on modified G5s?) but at least people would have something to get excited about.

All anyone is talking about is the unit itself and the various components. The gamer in me says "I don't care about the hardware...I wanna see the games!" Surely Sony could have delivered *that* much, unless there was some other problem they're not talking about.

Re:Something strange in all this...

[iapetus]

Short answer: no.

You'd expect to see the games running on near-final hardware at the last big show before the console's release. Expect real playable hardware at E3.

Who cares?

[yuna49]

Unlike the gaming fanboys here, I doubt many people are holding their breaths awaiting the arrival of the PS3. Sure if it cost $149 like the PS2 I might consider buying one. In reality, though, it's the games that matter, not the hardware. Consoles are an appliance; you buy one because you can't play the games otherwise. If I were a development house, I certainly would wait quite a while before releasing any games for this platform or the XBOX 360. If I'm in the business of selling games, I want to make them for platforms that have lots of owners. Maybe I'd get around to making a PS3 game in 2008.

Unlikely...

[Anonymous Coward]

Since ATI already got the deal on Nethack.

Not my fault.

[ZombieRoboNinja]

The NY Times article I linked said explicitly that "PlayStation 3 will also include... Linux operating software." I didn't know about the 10-point breakdown thing, which apparently contradicts the Times; that was added by Zonk.

Re:Not my fault.

[Mille Mots]

The NY Times article I linked said explicitly that "PlayStation 3 will also include... Linux operating software." I didn't know about the 10-point breakdown thing, which apparently contradicts the Times; that was added by Zonk.

Mea Culpa accepted. :) (I keed!)

You would think that, if the editors are going to add to the summary, they'd at least check the content of what they're adding and note any possible contradictions. But, then what would we have to complain about. ;)

I sent the article links to a friend, who replied with, '$500 for a PS3? No wahay!!!' He's the same guy who dropped $1k for an XBOX 360, though. Personally, I don't think it's outrageously expensive, if it will play PS[1,2] games and has a decent library of current games. I won't be pre-ordering, though.

--
This sig intentionally left blank

Cell is (technically) availiable NOW

[tubbtubb]

You can get a IBM Cell blade, but its only availiable by special bid:

http://www.itjungle.com/tlb/tlb021406-story02.html
http://www.newsfactor.com/story.xhtml?story_id=022 00000JLPQ The Cell Processor's Other Life - NewsFactor Network

Re:Where's the GPL source code to the Linux kernel

[robbieduncan]

You cannot download a modifed kernel yet. They do not have to make any changes to the kernel available until they ship. So assuming they ship in November and actually ship with Linux (a lot could change between now and then) I'd say you could expect to download the kernel in November, perhaps December allowing for normal corporate lazyness.

Horray for Nintendo

[MBCook]

Wow. I wasn't expecting the world-wide launch. Here is hoping they can pull it off. The Linux thing is interesting. The only other question I have is... if I download a game to play on my PSP (I'll be buying Parappa and UmJamma Lammy), can I play it on my PS3 too?

But the thing that this says to me is... Sony screwed up big time. Now I don't see why they didn't just do update the Blu-Ray driver later (like they did with the DVD driver in the PS2). Instead they delayed the launch.

Now Nintendo has a major leg up. I have been waiting for the Revolution and I think that it will do much better than the 'Cube did this generation. But now they will both launch around Christmas. Let's ignore the fan-boys and look at the people who want a new video game console. So little Billy wants a console. Do you...

1. Buy him a XBox 360 ($300 for the full system plus games, based on hypothetical price cut)
2. Buy him a PS3 ($425 based on "minimum" price, plus games)
3. Buy him a Revolution ($200 plus games)

So if we assume $60 games, that is $360 for a XBox with one game, $485 for a PS3 with one game, or $260 for a Rev with one game (assuming no pack-in). So for the price of a XBox, you can get a Revolution with about 3 games. For the price of the PS3, you can get the Revolution plus 5 games.

That will be a MAJOR plus to Nintendo, not counting all the other pluses (controller, backed library, etc). Look how Nintendo is doing in Japan with the DS. Nintendogs was HUGE here in the states, I know lots of little girls who got a DS just for that game. If Brain Training becomes big here too, wow. If they can do the same sort of thing with the Revolution, they could break out of their "slump" big time.

I can't wait for E3/GDC when we'll see more of all three systems.

And that computer is . . . .

[tubbtubb]

. . . an IBM Cell-based bladeserver. Lookie here:
The Linux Beacon--IBM Announces BladeCenter Kickers
The Cell Processor's Other Life - NewsFactor Network

Re:And that computer is . . . .

[Reverend528]

is it really worth purchasing a cell-based blade server for several thousand dollars when sony is going to sell cell-based consoles for $500?

And..?

[bhunachchicken]

It doesn't matter if it doesn't turn up for till Summer 2007... This is the Next PlayStation, a brand that transformed the face of gaming, turned it in to the multi billion dollar industry it is today and the successor to a console that has shipped over 100 million units worldwide. That's nothing to sneeze at.

So Sony has some problems with their Blu-Ray drive. At least they are delivering a true Next Gen system, unlike MS who have effectively delivered a bucket load of graphical updates to old games to what is in all honestly just an upgraded Xbox (and that's being generous, it can't even play old games out of the box without downloading profiles from Xbox Live).

Liars

[smackenzie]

I'm not sure why I haven't read more bad press about Sony "manipulation". Two weeks ago we were told repeatedly by Sony that everything was a go for a Spring launch when the crew in charge knew that the developers wouldn't even have the final dev kits until June! I mean it's laughable. "This is not a pipe." - Magritte

Landscape same as ever

[caffeination]

It'll be no different from today: Microsoft and Sony will still be taking up 90% of the press attention with their wafer-thin attention grabbing B.S., with Nintendo continuing to take in profit by the truckload in the background. Graphics will continue to win ground against gameplay, and I will continue to buy less and less games. More companies will be bought by bigger companies as the price of producing a game is forced up by increasingly laughable production values.

We'll know more after GDC

[Animats]

The Game Developer's Conference is next week. On Wednesday, March 22, at 10:30 AM, Phil Harrison of SCEA will tell developers what's going to happen.

This is the point where Sony has to make it clear to developers exactly what's coming out and when, or there will be very few games ready at launch.

So wait a week.

PS3 and GNU/Linux

[Lejade]

Ha hahahaha! I just knew it! I said it would happen back in 2002 right here on slashdot.

"I actually was at the presentation given by Okamoto san at the GDC. At the time I had noted a few interesting things apart from his lengthy talk on the PS3's architecture. One third of his talk was reserved for Gnu/Linux on PS2, which at the time seemed like a lot to me. AND he also talked about the research his team was doing on GUIs and showed a couple of weird looking screenshots. AND he kept raving about Sony's alliance with IBM and how closely they were going to work together and how much he was interested in everything IBM was doing (he was talking about grid computing at the time).
And we all know how IBM is interested in GNU/Linux, don't we?
So, I might be totally off base and, yes, this is total speculation at this point. But here goes: I really wouldn't be that suprised if Sony decided that the best way to compete with MS on the software side was to co-opt a GNU/Linux distro, slap a "made in Sony" GUI on it, et voilà! PS3 is ready to take on mighty MS on the software side! And if that ever happens, remember: you read it here first..."

I just loooooove being right (and yes, autoquoting myself is nice too)! :)

Re:PS3 and GNU/Linux

[apoc06]

good prediction. unfortunately, sony has been mum about the whole grid computing thing since before e3. what happened to the ability to combine cells to process info?

i'm still holding out...

[Anonymous Coward]

honestly, if there were modchips for the 360, I'd own one already. to hell with waiting for the PS3. Maybe by the time it came out I'd be able to own both, anyway. But with things as they are, I'm willing to hold my breath...

Yes, the 360 launched much earlier than the PS3, but they did so without much flare. Good games for it are just now starting to come out, but I'm not compelled to buy a system that has two or three games I'm really interested in getting. Sure, the 360 will probably have a bunch of games available when the PS3 launches, but I'm sure the PS3 will launch with some killer games up front.

On top of that, remember that the PS3 is completely backwards compatible. This is yet another reason I'm shying away from the 360. All the money I invested in Xbox games is now out the window because most of them are not on the support list, and god only knows what hoops I'll have to jump through (if and when they are supported) to get them running.

And, I'm sorry, but once the PS3 gets into full swing, it's just going to blow the 360 out of the water, based on 1 factor - blu-ray. I know it's all smoke and mirrors right now, but think about it... no matter how cool Halo 3 is, it'll have to fit on a dual-layer dvd. in comparison, just imagine how much more content you can fit on a blu-ray. It's like building a powerful gaming machine and sticking a floppy drive in it. I think Microsoft shot themselves in the foot with that one...

Re:i'm still holding out...

[apoc06]

blu ray or not, over the next five years 9 gigs probably will not be enough to hold a full game. some current-gen games flirted with the 9 gig barrier. its wishful thinking if they think games wont get any larger in the next 5years or so...

even if blu-ray fails as a media conduit, it will still accomplish its goal in giving developers more freedom and space. there no telling how far technology will advance in five years, or whether some new process will require more space.

Re:Where's the GPL source code to the Linux kernel

[fistfullast33l]

If the drivers are all modules, I don't believe the source code has to be released. Obviously, Nvidia and ATI have never released the code to their modules. Another example off the top of my head is Broadcom and the b44 ethernet card module (that's the open source one, but they have a module that is closed source whose name I can't remember). Another tactic they might follow is Intel's, who releases the wireless drivers for their IPW series as open source, but keeps the firmware for the cards closed. This allows them to look good and at the same time protect their IP. I doubt you'll see much source code from Sony in light of the PSP debacle. Personally, I don't care what they do as long as I can run linux. The PS2 dev kits all ran linux on them. My friend set up Afterstep on his in an effort to pretend he was John Carmack running a NeXT box. I'll settle for E17, since by the time the PS3 is released, E17 will probably be stable and able to run Duke Nukem Forever with OpenGL acceleration.

And don't flame me for E17, I'm running it on my laptop.

Re:Where's the GPL source code to the Linux kernel

[Intron]

Just because it runs Linux doesn't mean there will be Linux drivers for all of the hardware. Memory, disk, CPU and network is all it needs to run. Might not even have video drivers. Data can be shared with the PS3 software via disk files.

Zonk I think you're right on the money!

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the few times I agree with you! :)

MS vs Sony? More likely, Sony vs Nintendo

[Opportunist]

Does anyone know how the XB360 sold in Japan? According to what I hear, Japanese customers are quite loyal to their local manufacturers, so I would consider it likely that (unless that changed with the X360) Sony tries to pick up the battle with Nintendo instead. The one against MS is pretty much over by the time they could push the console on the market.

By then, the X360 will be "old" already. It's more likely that they will try to match with the Nintendo Revolution instead of trying to fight the X360. Simply because those 2 consoles will be the ones to share the XMas market for this year.

For the X360, you either already have it, you're going to buy it within 6 months or you don't care about it. Who's gonna get a 360 for XMas? Hardly anyone. It's "old" by then.

On the other hand, both the PS3 and the Rev are going to hit the market roughly around XMas this year. And usually people only buy ONE console per XMas, not both.

Re:MS vs Sony? More likely, Sony vs Nintendo

[jchenx]

For the X360, you either already have it, you're going to buy it within 6 months or you don't care about it. Who's gonna get a 360 for XMas? Hardly anyone. It's "old" by then.

I'm sorry, but that's just a pathetically stupid argument. The PS2 "was old" by the time the first Xbox and the GC rolled around. Yet you can't argue how massively popular it was. Heck, you've still got a lot of people buying current-gen systems today.

Your argument only holds true for those ultra-hardcore gamers that really do care about buying the latest and greatest. But you know what, they'll already have their 360s by then. It's really the mass audience that MS/Nintendo/Sony really care about. Plus we don't even know how available the PS3 is going to be, as well as how much it retails for, as well as how much the 360 or Revolution will be.

I have no doubt the PS3 and Revolution will be the "hot item" that everyone talks about this Holiday season. But it's stupid to think no one will buy 360s simply because it's "old".

Re:Where's the GPL source code to the Linux kernel

[dusik]

What does E17, a window manager, have to do with being able to run Duke Nukem Forever? Maybe you mean Wine will have been able to run Duke Nukem Forever if it will have been released?

Also, it's unlikely that E17 will be officially stable by then. I keep up with the mailing lists and I know there's way to much work left (even though no new features will be added).

RIP PS3

[Araxen]

Seriously, releasing a console at $500 is death. 3DO proved that...I expect Nintendo to pull a coup this time around if they bring out the Revolution out at $150 and really get out there and promote the vast backwards compatability of their new system.

Shameless MS bashing

[Programmer_In_Traini]

I didnt know that but it comes only as a small surprise since we can't seriously expect any brand of windows to run something as technologically advanced as Cell.

360 is like an agent in the matrix, its strong but because it is based on rules, it cannot ever be as fast or as strong as the PS3 can be. .... now please my nerd rating up 5 points for making an analogy with the matrix :)

Two christmases for Xbox?

[danielk1982]

If Microsoft gets two Christmases (with one Christmas having Halo3) its over for Sony in the US.

Re:Two christmases for Xbox?

[GameEngineer]

"If Microsoft gets two Christmases (with one Christmas having Halo3) its over for Sony in the US."

What is bizarre is I don't think you are just trying to intentionally spread FUD, but you honesty really believe the crap you just wrote.

The 360 is the worst selling console in a decade:

Still hasn't even sold its inital shipment of 150k units in Japan.
Sales appear to be going very poorly in Europe.
And the six year old PS2 is outselling the Dreamcast 360 2 to 1 last month with 300k units for the PS2 vs 160k for the 360. Pathetic.

The 360 is selling massively worse than the Dreamcast and it is selling at less than half the rate of the first Xbox.

Look out console world! Here comes Microsoft!!!

Heh

Re:Two christmases for Xbox?

[Anonymous Coward]

the xbox 360 was outsold by the psp and nintendo ds this month in america as well.

these are all systems that are "old", and america is the x360 main market. things dont look good, but halo3 is coming... right? right?

Re:Two christmases for Xbox?

[Anonymous Coward]

FUD FUD FUD...

Hey everyone! This guy gets paid to write these postings.

Game engineer? Hah.. What company do you work for.
What games have you worked on?

Re:Two christmases for Xbox?

[cornface]

FUD FUD FUD...

Look at the available sales figures. They aren't hard to find. If you strip off the amusing sarcasm, what he said is verifiably true.

Re:Where's the GPL source code to the Linux kernel

[albalbo]

If they're sending out dev kits, they have to make the source available to the developers. It doesn't count as internal distribution, and they cannot use an NDA to prevent the developers getting or redistributing the source.

All that said, the source is unlikely to be redistributed I would think, and even if it were, I doubt it would be terribly interesting - another CPU arch, maybe a couple of drivers. Nothing earth-shattering.

This may be my next PC!

[cmacb]

Never underestimate Microsoft's ability to blow a lead. Their reputation (deserved) of constantly grinding their competition into insignificance isn't based on any sudden jumping out into the lead technically. In fact when you look back at all their fallen foe you see that they all had PLENTY of time to react, but failed to do so for one reason or another, typically the reason is cash flow problems. Microsoft wins by outlasting the competition because they have a much larger war chest. The only exception to this I can think of is IBM and OS/2 who unilaterally surrendered by not marketing their own product, even though they had the money to run behind Windows almost indefinitely.

Sony has certainly lost momentum in the past year. The DRM fiasco will probably cost them as much or more than the lateness of the PS3. But Sony will have to exit the game business to lose this contest. Everyone knows by now that as Microsoft wins a new battle it eats its allies for lunch the next day. With gaming, Microsoft is going to build a huge infrastructure that will end up costing them more to run than they can make on it. I've said for some time that Sony is playing Microsoft just as Microsoft has played their own competitors over the years: let them run out ahead and make mistakes, come along after with good name recognition and established user base. make your opponents run at a loss while you run either at a profit or at least with a smaller loss. Rinse and repeat until your opponent starves itself to death.

Not since the struggle with IBM has Microsoft faced an opponent who had other significant income streams and could actually match them blow for blow in a war of attrition. It couldn't happen to two "nicer" companies.

What remains to be seen, and I think a distinct possibility, is whether these new game consoles can completely derail our thinking on what a PC is. Current PCs have long since passed any business needs in terms of speed, memory, and disk capacity. Competition is now almost exclusively in the game market, or the closely related "media center" area. The fact that Microsoft is placing such a large bet on something that contains no Intel hardware I think is telling, and particularly ironic, considering Apples recent moves.

I see no problems here...

[InsaneProcessor]

I'll gladly wait. Me and about 50 other people that I know. We won't touch the M$ toy because the games suck. They have little to nothing that is sutable for children and what they do have is violent crap.

Nothing to see here. Move along...

Whats the ... step?

[thepotoo]

You are forgetting something: Sony makes money via games sold, not PS3's sold. And the gaming service is free.
If they open it up so I can play Tuxracer (free) from a free download, on my PS3, where are they going to find a profit?

Re:Whats the ... step?

[GameEngineer]

Sony makes massive amounts of money off the PS2 hardware. They started making money on the PS2 around a year after release. And as they have continued to shrink the components for the system the profits have continued to rise.

The same will be the case with the PS3.

It's good to be a manufacturing powerhouse.

So true!

[__aabwba5127]

So South Park is cheap and easy to produce... That's probably why they've managed to keep the show going despite a slight decrease of the amount of viewers: it's cheap to produce so it's easier to undercut other cartoons.

problem with the 2 cents...

[Temsi]

At $500, there are going to be a lot of indifferent customers come March of '07. This will be especially true if, over a year after launch, Microsoft cuts the price of the 360 to coincide with the PS3 launch. If you have to choose between a solid platform that costs $300 (and already has a stable of games available) and a brand-new system that is two hundred bucks more with far fewer games, which one do you think most people will buy?

Sure, if the option was that simple, then the 360 would have it easy.
However, the PS3 has a Blu-Ray High Definition DVD Player.
If your choice is to buy a 360 for $3-400 and then a Blu-Ray for another $3-500, the choice becomes pretty easy, and clearly in favor of the PS3.

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't care about the Sony vs. Microsoft politics one way or the other (I have an original xbox, modded of course). Both are evil corporations, that happen to make products a lot of people want to use.

As far as I can see it, the only choice Microsoft will have, is to:

1. Lower the prices of the current version of the 360, and
2. add a third option to the 360 staple, which would be priced at around the same level as the PS3, but would also include a high definition DVD player.

They must do both. They can't just do one or the other and still expect the 360 to be on top.

However, the Hi-Def player would most likely be the HD-DVD, seeing as that's where Microsoft has declared its loyalty, and unfortunately - with only one major studio supporting that format - it's not nearly as attractive an option as the Blu-Ray.

Re:Where's the GPL source code to the Linux kernel

[fistfullast33l]

Anyone got a "Can't take a joke" mod?

Art of war

[tacokill]

"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" -- Sun Tzu (Anonymous), The Art of War

Re:Art of war

[YU Nicks NE Way]

No -- that's Napoleon you're quoting. The Art of War is about winning wars when you can't assume that your enemy will do anything stupid.

Re:Art of war

[Anonymous Coward]

Minor correction. It was napoleon that said "never interrupt an enemy when he is making a mistake".

Re:Art of war

[tacokill]

Egads. I think you may be right on this one. I *swear* I read that (or something eerily close to it) in the Art of War. I have never read anything on Nap Bonaparte so I am completely jacked up now as to where this originally came from.

Maybe a troll

[tprime]

You guys don't get it when it comes to Sony and Linux. Go ahead and mark this a troll. Sony is MORE abusive than MS when it comes to their interactions with their customers, but slap the words Linux on it and many people on Slashdot become instant supporters. I use Windows and Linux (depending on which workstation I am currently working on) and to me, Sony defies everything that Linux originally stood for. We have DRM that limits YOUR rights with your media. The PSP has not 1 but 2 proprietary media formats. Does anyone remember ATRAC3, another proprietary DRMed format we didn't need. Also, please keep in mind that the version of Linux that will be bundled with the PS3 will have to conform to ALL of Sony's vices, and won't be the garden variety that we can do what we please with. Linux compatibility doesn't make it all better.....

The most that all three companies care about is your money, its the underlying current that differs. MS cares about the profit of their system while forcing you to have their desktop system to use all of the functions. Sony cares about the profit of their system while forcing you to give up your fair use rights in music and movies. Nintendo seems to be the biggest straight shooter of them all, they just want to make money (maybe I am just missing their subversion)

None of the three companies are doing ANYTHING here because they think it is the right thing to do, but rather because it suits their profit model in the long term

Nintendo

[Ender Ryan]

The question is, will Nintendo even HAVE 5 games worth playing? Out of all 3 last-gen consoles, the Cube is by far the most disappointing. Nintendo has really failed to deliver to the more "hardcore" audiences. Wind Waker and Mario Sunshine were kinda lame. Their predecessors were much better. And we'll be lucky if the new Mario and Zelda get released while they still matter.

I don't know how many iterations of Mario fucking Party I can stand.

Re:Nintendo

[GameEngineer]

I guess that's why they sold 23 million GameCubes this gen and outsold Microsoft who blew through 5 billion just to sell almost as many consoles.

Yeah, poor Nintendo.

Re:Nintendo

[Ender Ryan]

So what? A lot of casual gamers like Mario Party and the like. BFD. I always liked Nintendo's more hardcore franchises, and I'm dismayed by their lackluster appearance on the Cube.

OTOH, Metroid Prime is pretty fucking cool, and I haven't played both of them through, as I don't have 'em. I will have to fix that.

By all means though, please recommend some more Cube games that I need to play.

Re:Nintendo

[MBCook]

Both Metroid Primes were fantastic games. I loved Wind Waker, it was classic Zelda. It's only real problem was that near the end the sailing mechanic can get a little tiresome. The Resident Evil 1 remake was great, if you haven't played the original, and RE 4 was absolutely amazing (it's hard to believe that the 'Cube was capable of such graphics).

As for other games, I adored Pikmin, and the sequel was great (but not as good, the dungeon crawling got very tiresome). MarioKart Double Dash was a blast, as was Mario Golf: Toldstool Tour. Paper Mario and the Thousand Year Door had a great story and was a blast, Viewtiful Joe was terrifically original, and the sequel was very good. Both of those can be set to be extraordinarily difficult if you want a challenge. Super Smash Brothers Melee was fun (especially if you can get more people to play with). F-Zero GX was fun. Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes was an amazing game (I hadn't played the original yet).

Animal Crossing will suck an amazing amount of your time up (I didn't like the DS version though), and Mario Sunshine was fun (but it was no Mario 64 or Super Mario World). Luigi's Mansion was fun (give it a rent, or buy it cheap).

On top of that, most any cross-platform game you can think of has been on the 'Cube, along with a few others. There is always stuff like Donkey Konga too (fun).

Re:Nintendo

[be-fan]

The biggest problem with the Cube is that if you don't like the few really good games they have, you're SOL. Back in the days of the SNES, there were the big-name games (the new Mario, Zelda, Donkey Kong), but there was other stuff too. Lots of stuff in lots of different categories (kinda like the PS2's library). The GC has some extremely good titles (which I mostly have no interest in playing, since they aren't in my preferred genres), but no depth in any given category.

Linux games

[phorm]

There is also, of course, the possibility that - in having a fixed-hardware machine that runs linux... and possibly decent driver support from Sony - new and exciting Linux games might be developed on the PS3. There are plenty of existing and many decent dev kits for linux. Knowing what you are working with (resolution, controllers, internal hardware) might make game development a whole lot easier for those that wish to do so, and using 'nix adds some versatility to it as well.

Sony's got themselves a mess

[danwesnor]

First of all, let me say they shouldn't be worried about XBox 360's supposed lead. You still can't buy one of those, and as far as I'm concerned Microsoft's inability to actually put them on store shelves has blown any advantage they might have gotten from an earlier release. As far as I'm concerned, Xbox 360 doesn't exist until I can actually buy one.

But that's not why we're here. We're here to rag on Sony.

They've got themselves a mess. They are trying to bring BluRay and PS3 to market this year. They want the analysts to believe that PS3 is not late because of PS3-specific problems, but because of BluRay problems. At the same time, they're trying to convince analysts that BluRay will roll out without a hitch in May. Maybe they're praying the same analysts don't go to both press conferences.

But I'm guessing that the reality is that they can't make enough BluRay drives and disks to satisfy both markets. And if they don't satisfy the BluRay movie market, they will get creamed by HD DVD. I bet there's a big Betamax poster on the wall of every cubile in the BluRay division.

And then there's price. BluRay players will be expensive. Sony won't even talk about the price of their players, and they're due on the market in 2 months. A lot of people are thinking a BluRay player will start at almost a grand (twice HD DVD). So that's an uphill battle already. And what happens if they price a BluRay movie-playing PS3 at $300? Nobody buys the BluRay players, they get the much cheaper PS3, which is being sold at a loss. And since they're only buying it for the movies, Sony doesn't get the loss back in game licensing fees.

I'm sure glad I'm not Sony right now. They've bet their future on these two products, and they have to delay one or the other, and either way, they lose market share to a competitor.

Yeah, it worked so well with PS2

[Anonymous Coward]

The linux kit for PS2 cost $300, came with a $10 usb keyboard/mouse a $60 30gb HD a $20 network card that was different than the one you got in the stores, a $5 monitor cable (which you needed a sync on green monitor to use) and a $5 pressing of a linux distribution with most of the good shit turned off. Where did my other $200 go?

I don't know how the PS3 will work with linux, you'll need a special distribution to run on that wierd ass chip (which of course will cost YOU money)

The PS2 was just a glorified SGI Indy (in a slightly less attractive case) so not only was it easy to get linux to run (when you managed to figure out how to turn all of the features on) it was easy to get binaries for it

1. Discourage piracy, 2. Encourage development

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually it was a tool to start future game developers on the 'Sony Path'. That's part of the reason I have my current job making games, and why I'll be working on PS3 titles.

Aside all that I enjoyed making games on the PS2 with a _legal_ dev kit. The only reason for the linux kit was to discourage piracy benefiting from hobbiest reverse engineering, and at the same time teach 'kids' how to develop software on the PS2.

I hope we all learned something from this, which is Mongooses are cool.

Tonto, Frankenstein

[phil42]

TONTO: What you think of sony, Frankenstein?

FRANKENSTEIN: UHRNNNNNH SONY BAD

Isn't there already no piracy on the PS2?

[PingXao]

Correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm not a hard-core PS2 gamer, but I thought the problem of software piracy was firmly under control on the PS2 console. The DVDs use some sort of secret encoding technique ("wobbling" signal, non-standard sectors, etc.) that make it nearly impossible to burn copies, don't they?

How much in sales are really lost due to modchips vis-a-vis the entire sales numbers? I think game manufacturers are much more affected by video game rental stores, of which there are many. Anyplace you can go and rent a game for a couple of bucks sure beats paying full price to buy one - er, ummmm... I mean "license" - play it for a few days and then throwing it into a drawer where it will stay forever. The rental outfits have got to be raking it in. I'm surprised the game publishers haven't tried to get them outlawed yet. OTOH maybe they HAVE been unsuccessfully trying to shut them down and I just haven't heard about it.

Global launch VERY possible

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it's actually quite possible for Sony to do a global launch. Look at the reason for the delay, the Blu-Ray protection scheme.

THAT can be flashed into the drive at any time prior to launch, including a couple of days before shipping. So what I think will happen is that Sony will start cranking up the basic manufacturing now to have lots of consoles ready.

Then, when the protection bigwigs get themselves sorted out, hook all the consoles up, flash them, box them and ship them...

Re:Bah Sony. Bah...

[Babbster]

Think about it though: shipping with Linux might just create a vector for undermining the DRM on the Blu-Ray HD movies playable on this console.

That vector will already be in place when BR and HD-DVD drives are available to stick into a PC - something which could very well happen before the PS3 hits the US market, and almost certainly before PS3 supply is able to meet PS3 demand.

Linux or no

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm already sold. The PS3 SDK use some of the open standards API such as OpenGL, OpenMax, OpenVG etc. and they have purchased the SN Systems to create additional GNU/Linux development tools. Having Linux will be a major added bonus. OTOH the competition is trying to take over the living room with all the proprietary lock-in stuff, Windows media PC and etc.

Linux is NOT on the PStwo

[tepples]

Linux was available on the PS2

It didn't last long.

Didn't really mean anything though.

Especially because Sony stopped selling it as of the PStwo.

Xbomb

[tepples]

if they offered the kit in brick and mortar stores, you could be sure that someone would probably pick one up by accident for their kid. can you imagine the frustration xmas morning when they discover it wont play any games?

Of course the Linux accessory for the kid's existing PS2 ran games. Xbomb anyone?

Same-screen multiplayer? Handheld?

[tepples]

So how do you put four players on a PC for, say, a Smash Bros. clone or Bomberman clone or other game where multiple player characters interact in a single view from a fixed or semi-fixed perspective? Most PC users do not have their PCs hooked up to a screen that's large enough to support more than one player.

And even once I've done so, which handheld device do you suggest? Nintendo DS and Sony PSP are both locked.

Re:Bah Sony. Bah...

[HTH NE1]

But the PS3 will likely come with software to play the movies. The BR-ROM and HD-DVD-ROM drives likely won't. At least if DVD-ROM is any indication, they won't come with players for Linux.

instant MythTV?

[Lord Bitman]

If it comes with linux, all those video cables.. if it just came with a video /in/...

Games've looked better than Toy Story for a while

[Kevin143]

Have you watched Toy Story 1 recently? The graphics are not wonderful. Games have been able to look better than that movie for a while now; the real effect is dependent on the skills of artists. It was a big milestone but no one noticed when we passed it.