Nintendo Announces Japanese Wii Price

Wowzer writes "Nintendo has revealed to Famitsu.com, at the company's recent press conference unveiling its financial results, that Wii would arrive in Japanese stores with a maximum price tag of 25,000 yen. After taking in account various factors, the conversion to other currencies comes down to a launch price of: 225 dollars, 225 euros, and 150 pounds." Update: 05/25 13:45 GMT by Z : GamesIndustry.biz points out they hope to ship 6 million units by next March, and an Opera exec has said you can browse the internets with the wiimote.

Comments

Congrats Nintendo

[creepynut]

All this negative press about Sony, and you come out a true champ.

This is one I'll be getting myself for Christmas. I don't see them changing the price much, if at all when it comes overseas.

The next question is, how much of a profit are they making on that? IIRC, Nintendo doesn't have a history of taking losses on their consoles, someone correct me if I'm wrong. At this low price, is it possible they've taken a turn on this one?

Either way, even if Sony has a killer launch lineup, I don't see them making the family Christmas market given the steep price difference. Unless the 360's price has a Christmas price drop, I doubt they'll be much in the match, since they got their head start last year.

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[onewing]

At this low price, is it possible they've taken a turn on this one?

I seriously doubt they will be selling these at a loss. The hardware itself is claimed to be "two or three" times more powerfull than the gamecube. Since the GC launch in 2001 you can assume the technology for the Wii (which is very similiar IIRC) is a fairly affordable price at this point. The controllers themselves dont seem to contain anything terribly expensive, just an innovative use of two existing technologies.

The only things that may possibly affect this will be the addition of 512 MB built-in flash memory, the possiblity of an additional wiimote and the sensor bar itself. But I dont belive that any of these is a deal breaker on a possible 200$ USD launch price, especially with how weak the USD is currently.

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[coffeechica]

They might make less profit on the console itself than in the past, but I suspect that at worst they'll come out with zero profit, zero loss. Count market share wins into that (and those will be massive if they don't do anything stupid now, or Sony suddenly gets an epiphany and does a 180 degree turn), along with future game and controller sales, and they're well within the black numbers.

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[Evangelion]

The only things that may possibly affect this will be the addition of 512 MB built-in flash memory

Huh? 512M of SD Memory is $15 right now.

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[creepynut]

Not to mention that is the price to a consumer. Obviously, Nintendo will be mass order will be ordering these in much higher quanities in bulk. If a consumer can buy one SD 512MB card for $15, I'd imagine Nintendo can get them for next to nothing.

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[AKAImBatman]

Kingston 512MB Flash Cards can be had off of Amazon for $11.39. The list price is claimed to be $39.99. Even if we assume that the $11.39 figure undercuts the actual cost for some reason, I think it's safe to assume that the bulk cost would easily be within the range of those figures.

Similarly, complex universal remotes retail for about $19.95. You can usually find them much cheaper than MSRP. The sensor bar's cost will likely depend on what it's made of. Since we can probably assume plastic, it probably won't be too costly either. The Wii itself uses off-the-shelf components for its hardware, making the only questions the CPU and GPU. Both of these appear to be modified forms of existing processors. Which means that in bulk they should be very affordable for Nintendo. Therefore, it's likely that Nintendo will be able to sell the Wii at a $199 price point without taking any sort of loss. At $250, they'd probably be making a profit.

In comparison, both Microsoft and Sony have built their consoles out of highly customized and/or cutting edge hardware that require significant expense to manufacture. (At least initially.) The result is that they have to sell at far higher price points. In Microsoft's case, it's expected that they're losing money on each unit. (Though I seriously doubt that they're losing as much as the $200 that has been claimed by the media.) Both Sony and Microsoft should have paid attention to history. The Jaguar, Saturn, Neo-Geo, and Turbografix were all consoles that were on the cutting edge of technology. They all lost out to consoles that were inexpensive, built with off-the-shelf components (plus/minus a custom part or two), and were easily manufactured using less-than-cutting-edge technology.

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[jheath314]

Not to mention the fact that people who play with their wii in public tend to get arrested.

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[LWATCDR]

"At this low price, is it possible they've taken a turn on this one?"
Yes they can.
None of the components in the Wii is all that cutting edge. Some of the costs I guess off the top of my head are.
$5 for the plastics.
$25 dollars for the optical drive.
$50-$100 for the electronics. The big variable here is the GPU.
I am guessing on these costs but I think they are close.
Remember that when you are buying millions of parts the price comes way down. That leaves them around $100-$150 a machine to cover development, packaging, shipping, profit for the reseller, and what ever I have left out.
I would be shocked that if they sold six million machines and didn't clear at least $60 million on just the machines.

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[grahamdrew]

You have to end up thinking about the cost to integrate that into the unit, as well. We do a lot of board level design at my company, and dropping a 50 cent part on a processor board costs a heck of a lot more than 50 cents. The additional routing, assembly, and testing may end up costing you a lot more, by multiple orders of magnitude depending on the complexity of what it is, what you need it to do, and how reliable it needs to be.

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[Evangelion]

Similarly, complex universal remotes retail for about $19.95. You can usually find them much cheaper than MSRP.

Considering that the Wiimote has zero relationship to a traditional IR remote, other than shape, I don't see what this is supposed to mean.

However, that doesn't change your point -- accelerometers are dirt cheap, they're included in every laptop hard drive made for the past who-knows-how-long. Similarly, the cirutry that interacts with the sensor bar can't be too costly either -- really, all it has to be is a radio receiver/transmitter, and a chip to do the positional calculations. As long as they find a cheap source for the parts, the cost of this technology to produce is neglegible. None of it is complex, in terms of the amount of silicon needed.

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[EnderWiggnz]

with flash, you plug a DOM into your onboard IDE, and hit it with a glue gun. /producing upwrds of 250k units a year this way :-)

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[exick]

Fuck Christmas. Happy Hallowiin to me!

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[rolfwind]

With that $11 price tag, you are assuming they are using regular flash memory. Perhaps they want the 40x flash, which is faster and more expensive. About $40-50 for a 512MB unit. That might make more sense in a multimedia system for faster load times.

The Jaguar, Saturn, Neo-Geo, and Turbografix were all consoles that were on the cutting edge of technology. They all lost out to consoles that were inexpensive, built with off-the-shelf components (plus/minus a custom part or two), and were easily manufactured using less-than-cutting-edge technology.

I believe the Jaguar was based on Motorala 6800 CPU (16 bit, Mac). My friend had one. I was under the distinct impression, compared to the Sony PS, that it was a cheap PoS with no 3rd party support. Neo-Geo was just too expensive compared to the competition. Saturn was designed to be the ultimate 2D monster, and they started scrambling back to R&D when Playstation changed the game into 3D games.

I don't remember the Turbografx too well though.

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[bishiraver]

Interesting enough, the NES was, adjusted for inflation, was a little more expensive than the average of the two 360 price points ($350 or so).

Nintendo has been consistantly keeping their price lower and lower each subsequent generation.

Although their sales have been going down each generation - the NES was the best selling nintendo console made (the origional playstation outsold -that- by double, while the N64 sold about half as well as the origional) - if the poll on slashdot is to be extrapolated, the Wii will outsell the PS3 by 3, and the xbox360 by 5.

Of course, the slashdot crowd is not everyman's crowd, so you can probably expect the Wii to sell even better than that, given their slant towards the casual gamer and the non-gamer.

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[Wicko]

That is true, but you might have to take into account that Sony has a huge hold on the market right now, whereas SNK was just getting into the market. Also, the time period that we are in, people's interests have shifted more towards how amazing it can look and perform, and worrying about how good the game is has become a lower priority.

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[AKAImBatman]

With that $11 price tag, you are assuming they are using regular flash memory. Perhaps they want the 40x flash, which is faster and more expensive.

I doubt it. The flash is only used to store games downloaded from the Virtual Console service. When you consider how small most of these games are (barely a megabyte or two for the largest), you realize that using fast flash would be a waste of money.

I believe the Jaguar was based on Motorala 6800 CPU (16 bit, Mac).

Not exactly. The Jaguar had a Motorola 68000, a 32 bit DSP, a 32 bit GPU, a 64 bit object processor, and a 64 bit blitter. Basically, it had a LOT of custom processors stuffed into its case. Not to mention the 2MB of RAM, which was exceedingly expensive back in 1993. (4MB was still pretty standard on PCs.)

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[AKAImBatman]

Interesting enough, the NES was, adjusted for inflation, was a little more expensive than the average of the two 360 price points ($350 or so).

But it was right in line with the consoles that preceeded it. The Atari 2600 was introduced at $199.95, as was the Colecovision. The Intellivison was introduced at $299, and the Bally's Personal Arcade was $350 back in '79. So adjusting for inflation, consoles have continued to get cheaper over time. Which is in-line with general electronics which have also gotten cheaper with time.

The problem with adjusting for inflation when setting new price points is that consumers are used to prices going down. Over time they will expect more for less. So if you give them a price that used to be acceptable (after adjusting for inflation), they'll feel you're overcharging them. Ergo, it's wisest to allow your pricing to follow the general trend of products.

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[timster]

I think that Nintendo's success here is in seeing beyond the supposed "adult" market to the "new" adult market. I feel like in the last generation, "adult" meant age 17-24 males; people who tend to like violence, explosions, intense graphics, etc; people who are "afraid that playing a game with colors in it will make them look like a dork."* In analogy to movies, think the Matrix, Mission: Impossible, or XXX. The new adult market is 25+; people who are interested in good gameplay but have less time, have families, etc and while they might still enjoy a game like GTA, they might find it easier to make time for a session of Mario Kart.

If these impressions are correct, it's not that the PS3 will fail as such; it may be the best system for people who enjoy what it offers. But Nintendo's strategy is still brilliant. Sony may not be wrong as such, but I am afraid that their overall corporate strategy will fail if they lose more than a little market share.

* - Penny Arcade, "I Think Our Time Is Up"

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[SFBwian]

As a young adult working in America (without kids), I can explain why we might have doubts about being able to afford a PS3. Six hundred dollars is a lot of money. It's anywhere from 1/2 to a whole month's rent/mortgage, depending on where you live (which obviously can be proportional to how much a population makes as well). It's my monthly car payment (on a mid-size used car) and a month's worth of food combined. Six months of car insurance if you're a good driver. I bought a decent computer for less than that recently. A family of four can easily spend less than that on the whole family for Christmas. If you buy four games for it (and a memory card or controller or whatever extra accessory you want), you've spent easily more than 900 bucks (with tax), for ENTERTAINMENT. I could spend a little over half that for the same amount of entertainment if I buy a Wii. Plus, my wife might actually want to play a game released for it. Effectively quadruples my satisfaction-per-cost feeling. So the Wii doesn't have blu-ray or hd-dvd. I didn't think it was worth it to get a DVD player until they were around $150 years ago, and I don't think MOST people are going to be willing to pay so much for a system that does, for the most part, the same thing their current 10-year-old hardware can do. Sony may be targeting young adults in Japan and America, but they're limiting the general demographic to those young people that buy anything, or more affluent people in their 30s buying it for their kids. Nintendo is targeting it for the same group, plus an even older and more gender-diverse demographic buying their system for themselves.

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[AuMatar]

First off- what does the density of transistors on silicon have to do with processing power?

Secondly- even using the false version of Moore's law (power doubling every 18 months) a 2-3x increase is all you ought to expect. By plain math, 5 years is 3 periods, or a factor of 8. However, the processor is not the bottleneck in the system- the RAM is, particularly RAM latency. It doesn't matter if you can do 1 billion operations per second or 1 trillion if you can only read 1 million from RAM in that time. And RAM latency is not decreasing at anything near a Moore's law rate- its hardly going down at all. A 2-3x increase over 5 years is a pretty solid increase, if you were to benchmark a 5 year old PC against a modern one you'd see about the same difference.

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[rolfwind]

First off- what does the density of transistors on silicon have to do with processing power?

Oh no, the overly-serious tech Nazi, a cousin of the grammar/spelling nazi.

First off- A lot. Particularly with how many transistors you can fit on a chip. Is it any coincidence that the number of transistors increases with every generation of chips? Yes, there are other factors involved but there is a reason they try for smaller die processes every time.

Secondly- even using the false version of Moore's law (power doubling every 18 months) a 2-3x increase is all you ought to expect. By plain math, 5 years is 3 periods, or a factor of 8. However, the processor is not the bottleneck in the system- the RAM is, particularly RAM latency. It doesn't matter if you can do 1 billion operations per second or 1 trillion if you can only read 1 million from RAM in that time. And RAM latency is not decreasing at anything near a Moore's law rate- its hardly going down at all. A 2-3x increase over 5 years is a pretty solid increase, if you were to benchmark a 5 year old PC against a modern one you'd see about the same difference.

This really depends on the metric you are using.

For instance, on the PS2 vs PS3

Memory Bandwidth:
3.2GB vs 20-25GB

There are 5.5+ years between those systems though, but it seems on track with 8x.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3#Hardwar e_specifications

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_2#Technic al_specifications

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[bunions]

whoa, hey, has anyone else noticed that "wii" sounds a lot like toddler slang for either pee or penis?

Man, I really would have expected a lot more jokes about this. How was this rich treasure trove of humor overlooked?!?

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[Chicane-UK]

Amen.

Features can only offset an astronomical cost for so long.. I think Nintendo might emerge from this whole debacle looking very good indeed and more power to them. They've stuck by a tried a tested formula for a long time, and whilst Microsoft and Sony have been beating their chests and screaming in each others faces, Nintendo have just plodded along in the background getting ready to launch another masterpiece of a console.

Lets hope that the stupid name doesnt put people off, and lets hope that this console gets the recognition that it will (hopefully) deserve!

I've not had a Nintendo console in my house since the SNES (well excluding my DS!) - i quite like the sound of the Wii though!

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[AuMatar]

Memory bandwidth isn't the problem anymore. Its the latency- how long does it take to have a request filled. We have plenty of room for bits, they just take too long to get there.

Notice that for all Sony's talk about how much more powerfult hey are, they aren't even able to pump out 2x the polys yet. This number will be improved as people get used to the architecture, but it won't be anywhere near 8. Like I said- check PC benchmarks over the past 5 years- they might have gone up by a factor of 2.5 or so, its nowhere near 8.

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[friedmud]

Just so you know the "sensor bar" doesn't "sense" anything. It only _outputs_ an IR field that the wiimote picks up and uses.

Again... there "sensor bar" is _NOT_ an input device.

This should also make sure it's dirt cheap.

Friedmud

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[Borland]

Both Sony and Microsoft should have paid attention to history. The Jaguar, Saturn, Neo-Geo, and Turbografix were all consoles that were on the cutting edge of technology. They all lost out to consoles that were inexpensive, built with off-the-shelf components (plus/minus a custom part or two), and were easily manufactured using less-than-cutting-edge technology.

The same history that sees dual (quad) SLI cards and Alienware, a company dedicated to selling cutting edge, overpriced, PCs? The same history that has companies producing games like Doom3, FEAR, & Oblivion that require a current generation card to avoid a series of slideshows?

I think both Sony and Microsoft will do well enough this round. The PSP didn't bust the Gameboy monopoly, but it's hardly a failure either. And as long as the games don't cost $200 each, I think they can avoid the NeoGeo flop. Microsoft upped the price only by $10 and I think Sony will follow suit.

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[AKAImBatman]

The PC and the console markets are incredibly different. PC Gamers have always been willing to pay incredible amounts of money for the absolute best gaming experience possible. Console gamers, on the other hand, have usually pushed in the exact opposite direction. There was some attempt at bridging the gap between PC Gamers and Console Gamers, but all that lead to was the 3DO. And I think we all know how well that went over.

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[ajpr]

I remember when it was 22 pounds a Megabyte. And now it's 85 Megabytes a pound. I believe I was ripped off :(

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[bishiraver]

Indeed! Which is why Sony coming out with a 5/600 dollar price point is simply ludicris.

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[Tiro]

especially with how weak the USD is currently

If the dollar were strong, Nintendo could afford to sell them for fewer dollars. With the dollar weak, they can't afford to raise the price, otherwise Wii couldn't afford it.

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[theqmann]

Don't forget memory latency is given in memory clock cycle delay. Such a ram stick in 2001 might be 4-4-4, which generally means that latency is about 4 cycles of the 100MHz or so clock back in 2001. These days 400MHZ DDR, 2-2-2 latency is not uncommon. The 2001 RAM has a 40ns latency, whereas the 2006 RAM has a 5ns latency. There's that factor of 8 you mentioned. :)

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[steveo777]

When you consider how small most of these games are (barely a megabyte or two for the largest)

Unless Nintendo chooses to compress all their games (I'm pretty sure they will, but haven't hear dabout it), they're going to run anywhere between 1MB and 64MB (or more) for some of the N64 games. Not that it matters too much (normal read off a flash card is still pretty fast). But I hate waiting for my games to load. Thus the reason I bought a 64 over the PS1 back in the day. I remember playing Blood Omen at a friends house. It took almost a minute to access the in game menus... Every time you needed to switch weapon's armor, spells... No way I was putting up with that no matter how good the game was/is.

Heh, if you want a real load-time nightmare, play Turok: Evolution for ANY of the current gen systems. Even the Cube version takes over a minute for every level.

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

"Only 2-3x more powerful? That seems a little weak for being an upgrade to a system that is over 5 years old and considering Moore's law."

That depends on how 'power' is measured. Are they measuring the number of cycles, or are they measuring something else like the number of polys that can realistically make it to the screen. Since we haven't seen final Wii hardware yet, right now it's hard to say.

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[Wdomburg]

You can find 150x SD cards for $15 these days. Even the largest N64 game would take 5s to load at that speed.

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[Borland]

You make good points, but this might be the generation to bridge that gap. I speak only for myself, but I've lost that drive to upgrade my video card every 1.5 years to play new games.

Graphics are always improving first on the PC, but no new "wow" factors have emerged that make gameplay a totally different experience in recent years. On-line play has been a distinction, but even that has diminished with Xbox live and will probably decrease even further now.

For me, buying a PS3 (or a xbox 360 if the doomsayers are right) is more about getting a stable platform that will be good for 5+ years. But it will have a PC's gaming power for the first two years and will likely be in shouting distance even after 4.

Perhaps the PSX3 or 360 is the Neo Geo/3DO reborn; yet this time I think it might be the time for it.

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[dommer2029]

The weak US$ will have an inflating influence on the price for import, not the deflating influence you imply.

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[Wdomburg]

In 2001 most machines were running 2-2-2 PC133, which had latencies of about 6-8ns. And DDR400 is clocked at 200MHz, not 400MHz. They double the actual clock speed because there's two transfers per cycle; doubles bandwidth but does zip for latency.

With DDR2, it's even more misleading since the external bus is still half the number but the actual memory chips are a quarter. In other words, DDR2-400 runs at 200MHz externally and 100MHz internally. They maintain throughput parity by transfering twice as many bits. This allows the chips to be clocked a lot higher, but also means there's typically an additive latency on top of the CAS latency.

Each successive generation of SDRAM has had to make some latency concessions in pursuit of higher throughput. Thankfully that also means higher clocking, which masks the hit, but initial parts almost always perform worse than the previous generation.

Besides, when it comes to consoles you can't go by mainstream DRAM technologies. Of the previous generation only the X-Box used conventional memory, and that was actually DDR400 (yes, that too was available late in 2001). The Game Cube used a proprietary memory technology called 1T-SRAM and Sony grabbed hopped on the Rambus train.

Re:Congrats Nintendo

[kenpachi101]

i completely agree, nintendo is going to be making a killing on the Wii, if not only through the actual quality fo the system, then also because of the price.

Sold!

[MMC Monster]

I haven't bought a console in over a decade. But I will by a Wii. I've been thinking about a Playstation 2, since it's a mature system by now, but Nintendo has a lot more family oriented games, or so I hear.

Re:Sold!

['nother poster]

Because, everyone wants a media center. Microsoft and Sony say so.

Re:Sold!

[Roofus]

Agreed. I don't have an HDTV, I don't need SuperXtremeFlashyMegaGrafX. I just want something fun to play that I won't need to sell my precious bodily fluids to afford.

Plus, now I can walk around saying where's the Wiimote?!

Re:Sold!

[Haeleth]

It's plausible, too. 25,000 yen is £120, so £150 would fit in VAT and the obligatory ripoff-Britain price increase.

Although, £149.99 exc VAT sounds more plausible still... :(

Re:Sold!

[GeckoX]

Actually, a lot of consumers do too.

I'm about at the end of my rope with Sony, this time around they appear to be about to take SERIOUS advantage of my loyalty, which I will not stand for.

In the past though, I've stuck with Sony because my game library is MUCH bigger than it would have been since I can (and do) still play PS1 games, AS WELL as use it as my dvd player and cd player. I didn't always use it for this, but in the time I've owned my PS2, I've had a 6 disc dvd player die, a high quality pure dvd player die, and my old trusty cd player die.

It wasn't a hard choice to NOT go out and spend a few hundred dollars a few times over the past number of years. As a consumer, I've been tickled pink with my ROI on my PS2.

I'm about to get raped though, and I won't stand for it. No bloody way. The Sony-BMG corporate culture appears to be leaking into the rest of Sony and poisoning the entire company from the inside out. I already cut off Sony-BMG COMPLETELY a number of years ago now for their frankly disgusting business practices, I will do the same with Sony if they continue in this direction.

Brand loyalty is stupid if it stops working in both directions. As soon as your loyalty starts to be taken for granted, move on, because anything else will only result in reinforcing a companies bad behavior.

This is why Nintendo is just as strong and innovative as they always have been. They understand the loyalty of their customers, and wouldn't DARE piss in their face just to make a few extra bucks.

Re:Sold!

['nother poster]

I've never seen a media center that did nearly what I need. I haven't seen one that would be worth much for anyone who wasn't single. As soon as they make one that will let me watch tv on the big screen while my wife watches her chick flick sob fest on the 36 in. tube TV and my kids slaughet another 20,000 aliens in their favorite FPS I'll be interested. Till then I'll go with a DVD player, a set top box, and a game console or two. Having a console that is also a DVD player doesn't help much if one kid wants to watch a movie, and the other wants to play. Cheaper individual components are the way to go for most people.

Re:Sold!

[GeckoX]

Since when is a Media Centre 3 completely separate entities usable and viewable completely independantly by 3 different people at the same time?

Let's stick to reasonable expectations, that's just plain fucking stupid, and I have to suspect trolling as being your motive for posting that.

[sarcasm]Damned the PS3, it won't make me breakfast![/sarcasm]

Re:Sold!

[GeckoX]

Oh don't get me wrong, I never suggested that what we want or even need is what MS and Sony are proporting to stuff down our throats. I suggested that there is indeed a market for convergeance devices, but within the realm of reality. Tripling the price of a console, and stating it's because 'I' want these bloody useless crippled unavailable technologies at my fingertips, screw that.

My point is really that MS and Sony are falling COMPLETELY out of step with the desires of the consumer. How? Who knows. The PS2 is arguably one of the best consumer entertainment products EVER. It's price rocks, it's stability is awesome, it's usefulness is extraordinary. I have NEVER gotten so much use out of a $350 piece of tech, NEVER. XBbox didn't even come CLOSE to the ROI of the PS2 from the PoV of the consumer.

Why Sony is taking a big shit on that, I'll never know. MS I get, because they never 'got' it in the first place, so it's not like they're making a fresh new blunder here and about to destroy something that was very good...they're just plodding along with mediocrity that works for them as their marketting force does an awesome job of generating fanboy mentality. Sony on the other hand WILL cease to exist, in a single generation, if they don't figure this out real quick like. There is simply NO CHANCE IN HELL that I will pay anywhere NEAR what Sony is proposing on charging for the PS3. Why would I when I could just buy a bleeding edge PC, that I can UPGRADE at my whim, for about the same cost? It would be a very stupid thing to do. They are about to price themselves right out of the console market. A console is not competition for a PC, a PC will slaughter a console any day of the week if they're on a similar price footing.

Sony's being braindead, shockingly so, in so many ways.

Man, they gave themselves a WHOLE EXTRA YEAR to get it right, and instead are GIVING this round to MS, and creating a RIPE opportunity for Nintendo to steal a HUGE amount of market share from both MS and Sony. (This is conjecture, but I would suspect that most consumers that were loyal PS fans, but decide not to go with a PS3, but DO go with a next gen console, will be WAY more likely to go with Nintendo than MS)

Re:Sold!

['nother poster]

No, you missed my point, maybe intentionally. (Well, your assuming motives for me, why shouldn't I do it for you. ;) )

My point was that unless you are single, a media center is less cost effective. For a family it is usually a waste of money to buy a media center device when those functions that it performs are going to be wanted, or needed, by multiple people in the family at the same time. For me it would be cheaper and easier to simply buy one or two game consoles that are just game consoles, a dvd player or two, a video recorder of some type, and one or two other items that perform some of the functionality of a media center rather than two, or three, or even four of the media center units.

I don't expect a media center to make me breakfast, but with several people in the house, I damn well want to be able to make breakfast if my wife wants to wash the dishes without having to buy a second kitchen.

Re:Sold!

[iainl]

I'm not the grandparent, but I'll make a more reasonable statement:

Seperate components are the way to go, because a single media box won't record a programme while someone is playing a game on it.

Re:Sold!

[Wicko]

You make some very good points but I think you missed something. People such as myself are more interested in what games come out for that console. In the past, sure, there have been some great games for Xbox and Gamecube and other non-Sony consoles, but for me, Sony has always had games more geared to my taste than the other consoles. Nintendo fell out for me because it seemed too geared towards a younger audience, and while I admit that a lot of those games were fun, I just lose my interest in them quickly. I still think that stands with the Wii. I just don't have the same fanboy mentality for Mario, Zelda, or Metroid as I do for games like Final Fantasy, Star Ocean and Metal Gear Solid. I wouldn't buy an Xbox, or a 360, just because they are geared more towards playing FPS on a console. Like you said, a PC would slaughter it any day, however I disagree when you say on equal pricing terms. A 360 will definitely outperform your PC at the same price standing, and come to think about it, there are few PCs that can actually outperform, and for the average gamer, those PCs are way too expensive. If media centers aren't all the hype you think they are, then why did so many people go out and mod their Xbox to have a Media Center dashboard? I think MS was just trying to give Xbox fans what they wanted without having to mod their 360. Media Center is a good idea, you could download videos and transfer them to your XBox, and watch your videos on a large TV screen rather than a 17 or 19" monitor. I have doubts that putting a Media Center in affected the price noticeably. I don't think people will sway as much to the Wii as much as you think they will, but I definitely agree that Nintendo did the right thing in straying from MS and Sony, I thought they were dying after releasing the GameCube, but I guess they had a contingency plan.

Re:Sold!

[GeckoX]

You're posing your opinion as the gospel of all families.

I have a family myself. There is no one right answer.

My only point was originally that there ARE in fact a large number of people that DO like what the PS2 offered, and would like more products along that line.

You insist I am wrong because that isn't the case for families...I'm sorry, but come on now.

Re:Sold!

[GeckoX]

Where did I mention the specific need for any particular set of features?

I'm wrong because this fictional box you've just created won't do a particular thing? This box that doesn't even exist? This feature that I personally, and perhaps others, don't even care about? Never mind the fact that that could be a nice little feature for PS3 or something, who knows.

Yeah, I'm a fucking idiot because I only bought a PS2, and it works for me, and would like more products like that. WTF?

Asshats the lot of you.

Re:Sold!

[spyrochaete]

Nintendo has a lot more family oriented games, or so I hear.

Maybe in percentage of all games sold, but not in sheer numbers. PS2 has 1.2 jillion gamesa out and a ton of them are family-friendly. I just bought a used PS2 a few weeks ago (my first console since N64) and I adore it. It's a very polished, mature, professional system that feels and plays great. Pick one up while you wait for Wii. The used and cheap games make it well worth the investment.

Re:Sold!

[gordo3000]

I think its funny two of your three favorites would probably still be on the nintendo only if it weren't for Nintendo's arrogance back when sony got into the console business......

funny how a misstep like that can give up your stranglehold in the market.

Re:Sold!

['nother poster]

Some people do want them. Some people with huge families probably want them. I never said that families wouldn't want them, or enjoy them. I said "I haven't seen one that would be worth much for anyone who wasn't single." That is an opinion. I never said people wouldn't like them or want them, just that *I* didn't see them as useful outside a small niche. In my other post, I said "For me it would be cheaper and easier", not "for everyone it would be cheaper and easier". I never insisted you were wrong about people wanting them. I never said you wern't allowed to hold your own opinion on them. There is no "Gospel according to 'nother poster".

Re:Sold!

[GeckoX]

You're sort of right, but you're pulling in another argument into this discussion.

But even then, you are propagating a fallacy now. While your argument held solid in the past, games are becoming less and less tied to a particular console. Sure, you might not like the games available for the wii...I never stated that everyone was going to buy a wii instead of a ps3 or xbox 360...I stated that less people will buy the PS3 this time around. That is an important distinction.

Personally, I'll be happy with my PS2 and it's associated PS1/PS2 game library for a good number of years, and relegate my bleeding edge gaming this time around to the PC, a decision I made back in January when I bought myself a beautiful 23" widescreen monitor and a 7800gs to drive it. Last generation, I chose to buy a PS2 instead of upgrading my PC, this time my PC gets the love...and oh the love it returns. There is simply no way at all that Sony can compete if they drive prices up even more, from a tech standpoint, I'm already surpassing the state of what will ship in the PS3. I'll live without the couple of games the PS3 may come out with that are killers...I've still got God of War 2 for the PS2 to look forward to, a few hundred hours of Oblivion on my PC, Quake 4 on the horizon...the plethora of HL2 mods and expansions coming down the pipe...ahh, and numerous music add ons for Guitar Hero for the PS2.

Sure, there will be killer aps for the PS3, but if that app comes out, instead of as in the past where it cost maybe $400 to get the game and the system...if it'll cost $800 or so to get the latest Final Fantasy or whatever...I'm not the only one that will cease to care. Yes, some will still pay stupid prices, but most won't.

Re:Sold!

[iainl]

Sorry, I wasn't aware that I'd made up the PSX on the spot, and no other console is a full-on media centre, as they lack recording capabilities. But that's by-the-by, really.

Fair enough, if you just wanted a PS2. My problem with the PS2 was that it was a really, REALLY shit DVD player. Fortunately, I already had a proper one, and so only wanted it to play games on.

Which it does just fine. There really wasn't much they could have done to reduce the cost of the machine by leaving out the DVD playing capabilities, so it's a freebie. The PS3, however, you're paying a fortune for the BluRay drive, which as the 360 demonstrates is just excessive. All in the hope that we might buy some films in the format (not bloody likely, if you look at that format's launch lineup).

Re:Sold!

[GeckoX]

Read your original reply again please. It very much comes across as 'You're wrong, I'm right, because I want this...'. It deffinately does NOT come across as 'Maybe that works for you, but in my experience I have other needs that that does not fulfill'.

Re:Sold!

[GeckoX]

There you go, stating opinion as fact again. jeesus.

In my experience, having used it hugely over the past 6 years, and more recently, having a 3 year old abuse it, the PS2 has a perfectly fine DVD player. What more should it do than offer all of the standard dvd player features? Or does a 'good' dvd player make you dinner too?

Further, where the hell did I bring up and define a media centre such as you state I'm arguing? Where the hell did I state the PS2 was a media centre by YOUR definition? By any definition actually, but I could easily argue it is. It plays MEDIA. Not only that, it plays MULTIPLE TYPES OF MEDIA. I'd call that a fucking media centre you fuckwit. What dvd players out there have recording capabilities? Where did that come from? Jesus, why am I even bothering, I'm obviously being trolled.

Re:Sold!

[GeckoX]

Are we discussing the developer history of the various game companies?

Are you making an assuption that I am a Nintendo fan boy?

Here's a clue: I won't be buying a Wii, unless it's still a viable system when my son is old enough to reasonably want a game console or a couple killer games not geared towards children only come out for it.

Who cares in the context of this discussion HOW sony got into the gaming market, this is more about how they're potentially about to EXIT the market, sheesh.

Argument for the sake of argument.

Re:Sold!

['nother poster]

Aparently you have a different definition of media center than myself and several others engaged in this conversation. I believe that may be where some of the confusion is coming from.

Re:Sold!

[GeckoX]

What was being discussed? GAME CONSOLES.

Who's confused?

Re:Sold!

[Zardus]

I've owned a Gamecube since launch day (actually, I've owned two since one of them got hit by lightning), and while not exactly a family setting (me and my wife mostly play with our friends. No kids yet), the Gamecube has destroyed the competition every single time. We've had people bring over X-Boxes and the like only to forget about them and play the Gamecube. Likewise, the GC gets picked over the PS2 for multiplayer games 9.9 out of 10 times. I honestly only recall playing a multiplayer game on the PS2 once at any point that we had the Gamecube available too. That's once out of like every weekend over the last 4 and a half years.

For single player games, you can sure argue the PS2 is better. But if you're into multiplayer gaming (family and friends and the like I mean, not sitting alone playing other people online), then the Gamecube is your best bet.

Of course, I'm assuming that GP means family multiplayer by family friendly and not games like Chibi-Robo (which, while great, isn't that appealing to me. I don't play single-player games almost at all).

For the GP, if you end up going with a Gamecube, here are some recommendations:

Multiplayer:
- Super Smash Bros. Melee
- WarioWare Inc.
- Mario Kart DD
- One of the Mario Party games
- Pacman VS (you have to shell out for a GBA for this one, but it is one of the funnest console games I've ever played. Its also the only console game my dad's ever played and not only did he enjoy it, but he whooped us all).
- Zelda 4 Sword (you gotta shell out for as many GBAs as players for this one. However, its even funner than Pacman VS. One of the best multiplayer games ever made, IMO).
- Final Fantasy CC (GBAs again, one per player. Pretty fun, but not as fun as the Pacman VS and Zelda 4 Sword unless you're hardcore into RPGs I guess).
- F-Zero GX
- Super Mario Strikers (don't actually have this game, but I love it when I get to play it)
- Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles series

And those are just the ones I play on a regular basis. I have yet to check out Star Fox Assault, Metroid Prime Echoes, and a few others (Mario Tennis, etc). I have a nagging feeling that I'm forgetting some games, but such is life. (also note, of all those games, all but TMNT are GC exclusives)

The single-player-games-that-I've-played list is much shorter. I play almost no single-player games at all. But here it is:

- Pikmin & Pikmin 2 (you can actually unlock a 2-player mode in Pikmin 2)
- Zelda Wind Waker
- Super Mario Sunshine (one of my favorite platformers of all time. Amazing game)
- Phantasy Star Online (I don't actually play this. I just use it to boot up Linux on my gamecube. It also has a multiplayer mode that I haven't tried out much).
- Harvest Moon: AWL and Harvest Moon: Magical Melody (both killer games for their own reasons. Nothing quite as relaxing as farming..)
- Metroid Prime
- Starfox Adventures (I personally hate this one because its so different from what Starfox should be IMO, but my little brother-in-law seems to love it)

There are a lot of single-player games that I just don't like, so I don't get them too often at all. For single-player family games, the PS2 could very well have more games, but the ones on the GC are simply amazing. Nintendo makes some of the best games out there, simply can't be beat as a non-internet multiplayer system, and has one hell of a killer lineup of single-player games as well.

This was somewhat longer than I intended. I'll use it to reffer other people to when they're curious maybe :-)

Re:Sold!

[drinkypoo]

Don't buy a dreamcast unless you're willing to do a lot of copyright violating. Most all the used shops [in the US anyway] have dropped Dreamcast. Well, some of them still have accessories, but pretty much nobody has games. On the plus side, it's still easy to find games and patches... :P

Re:Sold!

[Wicko]

You are right, I mistook your comment for saying that the Wii will replace the PS3 in our homes. PS3 sales will definitely be less than PS2 sales, and Wii sales will definitely be better than GameCube sales. I am envious of your PC set-up, however I have doubts that your PC could outperform either the 360 or the PS3. Then again, being wrong is no new flavour to me. I most definitely won't be buying a PS3 when its released. I will wait until the price drops, and for the rush of RPG games to come out for it.

Re:Sold!

[grammar fascist]

actually, I've owned two since one [GameCube] got hit by lightning

There's a story here that I'm just dying to hear.

Re:Sold!

[Zardus]

Here it goes :-)

Two years ago one of my friends had a party to celebrate his birthday and some of our friends' high school graduations. There were 8 people there, 4 guys and 4 girls. One of the guys brought his Gamecube and I brought mine. After playing the requisite Smash Bros games (we've had a Smash Brothers rivalry ever since the week the original was released), we networked the gamecubes to play Mario Kart DD. Well, unknown to us (as we were too involved losing races to the girls to notice), a huge Arizonan monsoon thunderstorm brewed up outside while we were playing.

It happened about an hour into playing; a match had just ended and we were about to start another. Us guys were all involved in choosing the track and such, and the girls were resting their hands. So it just so happened that every guy in the room was holding his controller, while all the girls had put just theirs down. Suddenly there was a huge clap of thunder as a lightning bolt hit (from what we've been able to figure out) the garage door outside (killing the motor there), got into the power system, traveled throughout the house killing various computers, televisions, and stereos, and finally found my friend's Gamecube (mine was on like four surge protectors since the second TV was across the room from any unused power plugs and surge protectors were all that we had for extension cords). It traveled through his Gamecube and split up. Part of the charge went into the 4 controllers hooked up to his GC, and the other part went through the network adapter, over the ethernet cable, into my GC, and out of the controllers. Now the way the GC controllers are built (and the way we hold them apparently), two of the metal screws on the back make direct contact with our middle fingers. As such, the four people who were holding their controllers (the guys) recieved pretty powerful electric shocks. The guys all jumped up, yelped, and dropped our controllers, right at the *exact* moment the sound of thunderclap reached us. All the girls in the room thought we were just scared of the thunder.

Of course, the Gamecubes, controllers, and network adapters (not to mention a few computers, TVs, stereos, and the garage motor) were all completely fried. Apparently though my friend had insurance for this sort of thing, and all our Gamecubes and accessories got replaced (I was hoping he'd get me a different color. Mine was silver and I had grown tired of that color. But alas, he got me another silver one). I'd since wondered if he really had lightning insurance or if he just shelled out to replace our stuff, but one of the girls at the party (now my wife) assures me that he did.

So yeah, that was a fun night. My wife still thinks I'm afraid of thunder, and will accept no explanation to the contrary. Sigh.

Re:Sold!

[GeckoX]

My pc absolutely outperforms a 360, hands down, not even a contest. My gfx is a generation (granted, not a major generation) ahead, and highly optimized. Granted, being honest here, I paid the equivalent of a 360 to only get the gfx card and monitor, but the entire rest of my PC was only ~800, and I use it for one heck of a lot more than a console. It also provides me with the ability to upgrade over the next FEW generations, while the current consoles get old and tired.

It is a moving target, one that's always been a gamble, but having been through it numerous times, I have enough ammo to make a pretty good decision.

Back in the PS1 days, I bought a PS1. It was outdated within the year. When Unreal came out, it was time for a bleeding edge PC. Dual VoodooII here we come ;). I upgraded that machine over the livecycle of the PS1. Then the PS2 came out. It has only been very recently that PC hardware has really made the PS2 look obviously dated. Made the right decision there too. Most games for PC in that time period were easily handled acceptably by fairly generic gfx cards, where the consoles just kept pushing the limits of their own hardware in increasingly stunning ways.

This time around, well, both the 360 and PS3 are really just PC's, but minus a lot of features and locked in at their current specs. Since it takes so long to actually get a final console to market, and since there is currently another big surge in gfx tech, mostly driven by monitor advancements, this round of the console wars has already lost in the tech arena to PC's, hands down, and the PS3 hasn't even come to market.

Anyways, that's just the reasons that influence my personal purchasing decisions, and completely ignores the most important aspect, the games! I never would have bought a PS2 if it weren't for the likes of FF7, Tony Hawk, GTA etc. I also wouldn't have just tricked out my PC rig for state of the art gaming again if it weren't for HL2, Oblivion, Quake4 on the horizon etc :) I'm really just catching the best wave for my own desires. But on a business standfront, Nintendo appears to be the only one actually making a console anymore, and the only one still in that particular market. As we've now agreed though, that does not mean Nintendo suddenly will gain sony or MS's market shares, by any means, unless they start competing on the game front for their markets. Nintendo won't do that, it's not their market and they're smart enough to realize this :)

Re:Sold!

[trcooper]

I'm close to going with Nintendo now... Not quite sold yet.

Before there was much information on the Wii/Revolution, I was planning on buying a 360 after the first price drop, which I expect about the time the two new consoles hit the shelves. Now Nintendo has my attention, and if they can produce some good titles at launch they're in the running. I might even consider both consoles, with decent price points.

Sony's got their hands full. They've got a console that potentially will cost more than their competitors combined, and not really outshining either of them in the areas that each console interests me the most in. The area where Sony has an advantage to me, titles, seems to be slipping as well. Xbox will have GTA first this time around, and some nice exclusive titles of their own.

Re:Sold!

[iainl]

Yes, I'm stating as fact that the PS2's DVD playing was shit. Because the image quality was objectively terrible in comparison to every other DVD player I've used. I don't care about extraneous features, but it should at least get the basics sorted.

I used what the poster you originally started to attack defined as a media centre, what Microsoft and Sony define as a Media Centre when Microsoft launched Windows XP Media Centre Edition, and Sony launched the PSX, describing it as a Media Centre version of the PS2. Which includes recording. You'll note the way that we didn't refer to the original PS2 at all, until you got all jumpy about the idea that someone had defamed your precious machine.

So if anyone around here is being a troll, it's you. Buh-bye now.

Re:Sold!

[grammar fascist]

That was awesome. Thanks!

Re:Sold!

[Wicko]

I was getting the idea that the consoles were very high performance due to the HD games running at decent framerates, like Oblivion. I played that on the 360 and I played it on my miserable little machine, and there was a HUGE difference.. Then again I'm running a 9800xt overclocked and a Sempron 3100 massively overclocked and there were a lot of settings I had to tone down :( But, like we both mentioned, it all comes down to games. Plus, who wants to play an FPS on a console? Not me!

Re:Sold!

[Zardus]

The weekends are when we play with friends. Not the whole weekend, mind you :-). Together, we usually play to wind down after work and school. As for her playing games, I like it a lot for the most part. My single complaint is that she plays MMOs way too much, IMO. But then she could say that I have too big an irrational dislike of the newer Final Fantasies or something. And if we kept nit picking, we'd drive each other crazy.

So instead we just beat each other up in Super Smash Bros Melee, which solves the problem rather well. Lately its been Zelda 4 Sword, which is slightly less effective cause she keeps team killing (keeping it very fun, but less resolving-our-differences like). Grr.... And she always gets more flipping gems...

Re:Sold!

[Petrushka]

Xbox will have GTA first this time around,

Simultaneously, actually. Just a very minor point, I know. :-)

Re:Sold!

[GeckoX]

Hehe, that was my thought too...Oblivion on a console? Riiiight...

A friend of mine has it for the 360 though, and I've spent a good bit of time comparing them. This is certainly not proof that the 360 is already technically dated because the game was written for the PC and packaged thereafter for the 360...but it's not like a full on port since the 360 is just a pc, scaled down in some places, scaled up in others. Mostly down though.

If you get a chance to play oblivion on a (relatively) state of the art PC...well, there's just no comparison, not even close. We're talking a factor like PS1 - PS2 quality here. It's OK on the 360, but deffinately nothing special (unless only compared to previous console games)...and it's load times are along the lines of what one usually expects out of a FPS.

On my rig though...there are zero load hiccups even when travelling around, couple second load times for total displacements or load from save, jaw dropping graphics and rock solid framerates at high res and settings. (I won't lie, it's not running 90fps or anything, I'm running it around 60, not quite maxed out on the settings, but you have NEVER seen this much stuff on screen all at once. There is real grass swaying in the wind everywhere you look, trees and leaves fluttering...stuff that was there on the 360, but only sort of.

If you liked it on the 360, you have to try it on a reasonably recent pc. You will absolutely be blown away :)

Re:Sold!

[GeckoX]

Asshat, read the fucking thread before you continue to make the blatant mistake that I'm STILL trying to get you to see. I DIDN'T MENTION MEDIA CENTRE UNTIL YOU GUYS INSESRTED IT PURPOSELY INTO THIS CONVERSATION TO DERAIL IT.

Go Here and read it again in context: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=186656&cid=154 01457

I only opened up discussion on the media centre front to try to ensure no one bought the bullshit derailment thrown at the conversation.

It was NOT ME that called the PS2 a media centre.
It was NOT ME that placed a predefined absolute definition of what a 'media centre' is in the conversation with the intent of showing that I'm an idiot for having found a useful product in the PS2.

I started this conversation by stating MY OWN OPINION on the PS2 based on PERSONAL EMPIRICAL OBSERVATIONS of the product over the PAST 5 YEARS.

Fuckwit, next time you want to join a conversation, join the conversation, don't turn it into something else for your own fucked up agenda.

Re:Sold!

[iainl]

If you didn't mean to call the PS2 a media centre, then perhaps you might have tried not mentioning it apropos of nothing in reply to a post about media centres, you dumb trolling cunt.

Re:Sold!

[GeckoX]

Who the FUCK in their right mind would call the PS2 a media centre? You jump to a lot of interesting conclusions, you fucking mindless useless waste of meat. Please, put yourself out of your misery as soon as you can would you?

Re:Sold!

[Wicko]

I can only imagine, perhaps in a year or so i will know what its like. Some day when I'm not shelling out thousands for university, I will know heh. It was a sad moment when I was in the video options, seeing all the possibilities and then having to lower them all.. By the way, were you able to get HDR and AA on at the same time? I can't remember if newer cards support that, since it requires the same hardware. With my card I can only do one or the other. S

Re:Sold!

[GeckoX]

Unfortunately, it's HDR or AA.

However, on this monitor, damned the AA, HDR is much more impressive @ 1920x1200 on a 23" vs AA. Stylistically as well, AA isn't really missed at all.

I feel for you, I remember the college days. Actually, I blew a chunk of my student loan on a VooDooII sli rig at the time...that was leet for about 5 minutes ;) Thankfully, things aren't quite so drastic in the gfx world anymore. I can reasonably guarantee that I will be able to play any PC game that comes out in the next few years, maybe not with full settings, but I'll be able to play them.

I remember when Quake III came out, it required a new gfx card, everything before that gen was immediately rendered completely useless. That's when I took a long hiatus from PC gaming, at least, leading edge 3D stuff anyways, in favor of the consoles. Now that consoles all just want to be PC's and the feature requirements of gfx have stabilized and matured reasonably, it's getting safer to pay for PC gaming rigs again.

Re:Sold!

[iainl]

"Who the FUCK in their right mind would call the PS2 a media centre?"

Umm, you. In your first post of the thread, replying to a discussion about media centres with an unwarranted defence of your poor little PS2 that you thought had been maligned, on account of your lack of basic reading comprehension.

Oh, sorry, you said it had to be someone in their right mind. No idea then, sorry.

BS

[Yahweh Doesn't Exist]

if it's 225 dollars, then here in the UK it will be 225 pounds. FACT.

still a good price in absolute terms though.

Re:BS

[CableModemSniper]

Yes, but it's not $225 its 25,000 Yen. I doubt the US/Continent/UK price is going to be $225, it'll be $199.99 or $249.99. $224.99 is a really odd price.

Re:BS

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't be so sure of that. As many people have mentioned recnetly the Gamecube was priced at $200 when it launched in the US. The UK launch price was significantly lower then £200 pounds (link).

Re:BS

[DaPoulpe]

Not that much of a fact, it's more likely to be (as usual) :
$x = x Euros (incl. taxes) and then you convert to £.
$x = £x would be a massive rip-off!

Re:BS

[Midnight Thunder]

$x = £x would be a massive rip-off!

But I have often see hardware priced exactly that way, and yes it is a rip off. The UK is just to overpriced these days.

Re:BS

[kfg]

$x = £x would be a massive rip-off!

The ripoff has a name. It's called "VAT."

In England they increase the "value" of things by bundling taxes into the selling price.

KFG

Re:BS

[DaPoulpe]

Well I'm not saying it never happens but the usual rule is $ =

Random MacBook : $1,099 | 1.099 Eur | £749
Nintendo DS : $149 | 130 Eur | £98

Re:BS

[Ant P.]

£130, to be exact. I bought my GC about 2 weeks after release for that price. Though I remember the N64 being a lot more...

Re:BS

[DaPoulpe]

yeah I know how it works and it's the same(ish) in the Euro zone.
That's why we often end up with the same prices in $ and Euros even if Euro is stronger. Due to our VAT and sometimes import taxes too. At least true for most computer parts, and electronic in general I think.
But then the price is converted from Euros to £, that would be a double rip-off otherwise..

Re:BS

[Anonymous Coward]

$x = £x would be a massive rip-off!

You say that like it means it won't happen.

Re:BS

[KDR_11k]

A GBP is roughly 1.9 USD according to Google, VAT isn't more than 25% in any EU member state and lower in most.

Never mind that they never try that kind of pricing on PC games which, as a result, cost the same as DS games.

Re:BS

[conJunk]

Yes, but it's not $225 its 25,000 Yen. I doubt the US/Continent/UK price is going to be $225, it'll be $199.99 or $249.99. $224.99 is a really odd price.

you'd be surprised. when i lived in japan, i found that most everything cost about the yen equivalent to what i'd expect to pay in USD. A $1000 laptop was like 11,000 en.

Re:BS

[NeMon'ess]

Maybe it's unusual, but not odd. Compare to previous consoles dropping in price to $179 or $129. I think it's an excellent price because "22" keeps people thinking it's close to $200. It mentally gets people willing to buy it for $200, but Nintendo gets a few dollars extra profit.

Re:BS

[FinestLittleSpace]

what WAS the '64 priced at? I, for some reason, remember Ninty launch adverts pricing it at £350 here. Am I right or was it £250?

Re:BS

[kfg]

When the American Federal income tax was enacted it was a 3% tax only the top 1% of earners; and we were told it would stay that way.

When the NYS Throughway was built it was made a toll road, but we were told "only until it is paid for."

It's paid for. The toll remains. Why?

We are told it is necessary to pay the salaries of the toll takers. No, I am not making that up.

The cynical might conclude that politicians are fucking liars and will always go for the money. I however, am not a cynical man. I am an emotionless realist. Therefore I know that . . .politicians are fucking liars and will always go for the money.

KFG

Re:BS

[xtieburn]

Actually probably not entirely true.

Both the X-Box360 and the PS3 have been converted from Dollars to Pounds in a similar way. If you work it out they add about 35 cents per dollar before converting it over. So 225 + 225 * 0.35 is 303.75 now convert that to pounds and your in the 160 quid range.

Thats assuming they keep in line with the others. Id still be safer predicting it coming to us at 200 but I remain hopefull that it is closer to the 150 mark. Which is very nice indeed for a new console release.

Re:BS

[DrScotsman]

I believe the Dreamcast started at $199 and £199. However after it had lowered in the UK (in EB/GAME), I saw it still at $199 in an American EB. I know the companies are somewhat seperate, but it goes to show it was only a rip-off for early buyers here.

Re:BS

[soliptic]

$x = £x would be a massive rip-off!

That's his point. $x = £x happens on almost every other kind of electronic equipment, and yes, it is a rip off.

Re:BS

[Abreu]

Here in Mexico theres a Toll road and a Federal road going almost everywhere, the Toll road being better maintained than the free one (which is not much to say, since the tolls are way too high for what little maintenance they do)

So theres a song that was made popular a few years ago by El Tri that goes this way (rough translation):

With the money that gets paid in a Sunday
in all of the Toll roads,
We could pay off the foreign debt,
and buy a whole lotta weed!

But that cannot happen!
What would Papa Goverment say?
Who would pay their cars, their women?
their bodyguards?

Re:BS

[Kreigaffe]

See also: Johnstown Flood relief tax on alcoholic products sold within PA.

Enacted after the flood in 1936 as a 10% tax on alcohol, set to last until $41 million had been raised to rebuild the city.

Of course, that amount was raised long, long ago.

Long before they decided to allocate money into the general fund. And then raise the amount to 18%. On top of the 6% sales tax.

Didja know our state lawmakers are the 3rd highest payed in the nation? These guys rock! What a great state. Oh, excuse me. Commonwealth. PFFffff.

Re:BS

[kfg]

I spent some time living in Oaxaca and a couple months in Puerto Angel. I'm familiar with Mexican "roads." I also got to watch a presidential "election."

Like the song. I just might take the trouble to learn it.

KFG

Re:Under $250 is unlikely

[diamondmagic]

With that logic, the Gamecube would have been $250 and the DS $200. Their stratagy isn't "slightly better", it is "new". And, yes, hopefully with a game.

NOTE!

[Guppy06]

"After taking in account various factors, the conversion to other currencies comes down to a launch price of: 225 dollars, 225 euros, and 150 pounds."

This is not official. This is mere speculation on the part of the article.

I, too, can pull numbers out of my ass. For example, because the launch price of 25,000 JPY is exactly the same number they used for the GameCube, they'll release the Wii in the US for 199 USD (like they did with the GameCube).

Until we get official numbers, though, this is all speculation.

Re:NOTE!

[TheBlackSwordsman]

I, too, can pull numbers out of my ass. For example, because the launch price of 25,000 JPY is exactly the same number they used for the GameCube, they'll release the Wii in the US for 199 USD (like they did with the GameCube).

Exactly. Anyway, I'm much more inclined to believe the Wii will launch for $200, considering that's the price every previous Nintendo console launched at.

Re:NOTE!

[Puhase]

Just to add one more NOTE to your point. Nintendo has been pretty consistent about charging more in Japan for their consoles than in the United States, for the initial release price at least.

Re:NOTE!

[ronanm]

I, too, can pull numbers out of my ass.

Can I play too???

There's a good article on nintendojo about how/why nintendo should keep the cost of Wii down.

Anyway, getting back to pulling numbers out of asses, I'm betting that Wii is going to perform well in Japan but they're going to have to go for sub $200 in the US where they face major competition from the 360 core. I think $179.99 is a good price point, with 200/£150 in Europe.

Think about it, there's no way the core is going to be at $300 this Christmas. If it sells at $250, and the Wii sells at $225, no casual gamer / parent is going to buy the Wii.

Personally I'm more interested in how much a second controller and the Zapper attachments are going to set me back.

Re:NOTE!

[HunterZ]

Yeah, it sounds like that was probably one of the first goals they set for themselves when designing the console - i.e.: Make a revolutionary console that will sell for $200. While operating on a different technical level than its competitors, it will no doubt appeal to a much, much wider audience (due both to price and games), so it will be very interesting to see how things pan out in this new generation of consoles.

Re:NOTE!

[l5rfanboy]

But it's still fun to quote the PS3's ~$800 EU pricetag! (http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/05/19 /1536224)

Re:Shit.

[CableModemSniper]

I'm pretty sure you meant to do this search.

correct price?

[Mini-Geek]

According to http://www.xe.com/ucc/, 25000 yen is: 223.435 USD (dollars), 174.841 EUR (euros), and 119.357 GBP (pounds), not 225, 225, and 150 respectively, as the article says. Just what "various factors" does it take into account, anyway?

Re:correct price?

[CableModemSniper]

Just what "various factors" does it take into account, anyway?

Big roooooooound numbers of course! Plus $225 sounds better than $250, but $222.something something is too much to be $200. (It's not, not really but hey it's their article they can make up whatever they want.).

Re:correct price?

[HaloZero]

Overseas shipping of console units, accessories, and games?

Re:correct price?

[Vo0k]

"How much are the suckers willing to pay?"

Gas Prices -- Kingman, AZ $2.959 -- Barstow, CA $3.699 -- Needles, CA $3.999 -- Venezuela $0.12

Re:correct price?

[falcon5768]

please keep in mind that conversions are very volatile. What could be 225 one minute, a hour later could be 223 or even 233.

Money conversions are not static.

Re:correct price?

[Scarblac]

The fact that with things with like this, if it sells for $225 in the US, it's going to cost at least 225 euro, possibly more. Just seems to work that way. Partly because of higher taxes, but probably also partly because they can get away with it.

Re:correct price?

[Mini-Geek]

Overseas shipping of console units, accessories, and games?

But then why would the conversions from xe.com come out to almost exactly the same for USD, but much less for GBP and EUR? Japan is almost on the other side of the world compared to the US, but is much closer to Europe/Great Britain.

Re:correct price?

[Hackerphish]

Not to mention some countires inculde their taxes in the actual price. It's going to be 199.99 USD, that is my guess

Re:correct price?

[barawn]

Just what "various factors" does it take into account, anyway?

Sales tax versus VAT.

Re:Under $250 is unlikely

[HaloZero]

I'm not so certain about that. The Nintendo game-bundling tactic historically comes into play well after the console has been established. They did it with they did it with the N64, the GameCube, the GameBoy Advance, and now the DS. Bundling a game later allows them the flexibility to maintain the original retail price sticker at a minimum cost to the manufacturer, for a longer period of time.

Price

[tgpo]

I can't say the announcement of the price has swayed me in any way. Price was never what held me back on newer systems. I havn't bought a system since the Nintendo 64 because most games are nothing more than recreations of games that have been available for years. The thing that does swing me to the Wii is the innovation and "Road Less Traveled" feel of the entire system. It no longer feels like a Gamecube V.2, nor does it feel like they are slapping some new hardware inside the old shell to make games prettier. I feel that is all the PS3 and 360 have going for it, they have more power than their earlier versions. SO WHAT! If you simply do updates and resell as brand new their is nothing innovative and exciting. It seems that Nintendo caught on to this and decided to try things a little differently. I saw that simply reshaping the wheel wasn't enough for most people and decided reinvert at least a small part of the wheel. Now I'm not saying that Nintendo is doing something that is 100% brand new, no, but I do say that Nintendo is doing something in a totally new way and they stand to reap the benefits of it. Sometimes, even a small diversion from the path will lead you to a whole new place.

Re:Price

[kestasjk]

We get the point; Wii is innovative and fresh, PS3 and 360 are the same old thing with better hardware, it's etched onto all of our brains after seeing the same thing posted over and over in every next-gen console article. Can we please stop repeating this now? Or at least stop modding it up?

Re:Price

[Ryan Amos]

Do not anger the Karma Whores, for they don't bathe often, and might decide to come visit you in person.

Re:Price

[Savantissimo]

Just what is innovative about the Wii? I keep seeing this, but it seems like the Wii is just a particularly unoriginal game-only box with an unattractive controller with a 2-axis acceleration/tilt-sensor that the PS3 controller also has. (I wish I had patented that controller idea when I thought of it 10 years ago.)

The PS3, on the other hand, has not only state-of-the-art graphics and sound hardware, but a decent-size hard disk, unprecedented openness to all sorts of hacking and accessories, Linux, a processor that is truly original and attractive for all sorts of serious simulation, financial and scientific uses, Blu-ray, multiple GigE ports for clustering, unprecedented graphic effects even beyond what the high poly counts would indicate, better capacity for non-player character simulation, high resolution and multiple monitor output.

As far as I can see, all the Wii has going for it is being cheap and being Nintendo.

I'd really like to know where this peception comes from of Wii's supposedly better gameplay and "innovation". Is there really some Apple-like quality that makes Nintendo software better despite its inferior hardware, or is it just the apparent astroturfing campaign seen on the anti-PS3 articles having an effect on perceptions?

Re:Price

[Willuknight]

nice, im sigging that ;D kestasjk> as long as it remains true, it shall never cese to be repeated.

Sold!

[nbannerman]

£150?

I'm buying one. End of discussion.

For the price of a 360, I can get something original and interesting, plus 3 games, and waste away hours being entertained. Seriously, why do I need a 360 or a PS3, when this thing looks like it might actually manage to be a games console, instead of a glorified media centre? ;)

Been wondering about the "loss leader" idea

[ianscot]

IIRC, Nintendo doesn't have a history of taking losses on their consoles, someone correct me if I'm wrong. At this low price, is it possible they've taken a turn on this one?

Given the marginalization of the GameCube, I've been wondering whether Nintendo wouldn't be smart to lose a smidge on each console this time around in order to regain market share. Their two competitors have blown prices sky high and narrowed their market considerably (I think) by making it necessary to pony up for an HD screen in order to really see the fun from their new systems. Sony and MS are vulnerable, vulnerable as can be. Nintendo needs to get the third party developers on board, and the relative cheapness of developing for Wii is a step that way. But imagine if the Wii release price was a bit of a loss leader, a $175 sort of thing, and they got a huge jump starting next November or so in their market share. Developers would take note.

I doubt it happens. As you say, Nintendo makes profit on its consoles (and everything else), and doesn't play the market share game a la Microsoft. Sony always tries to bundle everything with some sort of wrongheaded standards war "leverage" move. MS desperately tries to gain market share despite losing rivers of money, and imagines they understand the "extreme" tone "hard core" gamers like, 'cause you know, they're so cool. The teams keep running the same plays... I still think Nintendo is the clear winner this round, in prospect.

Re:Been wondering about the "loss leader" idea

[aliquis]

Nintendo probably prefers to make money instead of selling many consoles.

Re:Been wondering about the "loss leader" idea

[GeckoX]

That's pointless, even if Nintendo RAISES their launch price to lets say $250USD, 50 more than they every have before, they're still blowing the competition OUT OF THE WATER on price, what kind of message would selling themselves short send? This doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Nintendo has very sound, and more importantly, PROVEN business practices in the gaming industry. Why would they screw with what works? The only real reason Nintendo has lost some ground is that there is now so much more ground out there, and there are 3 MAJOR other competitors out there these days: xbox, playstation, and PC.

Nintendo will continue to relegate all major changes and innovation to their actual products, not to their business practices. Just as it has always been with Nintendo, and as long as they are viable, will likely continue to be.

Re:Been wondering about the "loss leader" idea

[Okonomiyaki]

That's right, they are already winning on price by a long shot so there's no reason to go lower.

However, there's more to why taking a loss would be pointless for them. You're a little of when you say there's more ground out there. There's the same amount of ground but more competition for it. One of the main points behind Nintendo's strategy with the Wii (and the DS) is to find new ground that the others aren't even playing on yet. If it pays off, Nintendo will be raking it in from console and game sales and end up with a huge, diverse user base while the other two take losses battling it out for the traditional demographic. If it doesn't, they at least seem to have gotten the attention of a lot of gamers that had just about written them off.

Re:Been wondering about the "loss leader" idea

[GeckoX]

When I was discussing available market segments in relation to Nintendo, I was talking the changes in the market since NES. There may not be a larger market this year than last year (don't agree on this even but...), however the market has grown MASSIVELY since the days of NES.

As for current market growth, it's still growing. People that never have bought a console, and never will, die every day. Children that will become gamers are born every day. The market is absolutely still growing. It's slowed a lot from the glory days, but it is certainly still growing. The gaming market will be in a transitional period for a good 30 more years anyways.

Re:Been wondering about the "loss leader" idea

[ronanm]

Dude, the basic xbox is $300, $250 is in no way blowing the competition OUT OF THE WATER

The average consumer is going to stick with what they know and either buy the 360 for $300 or if they're budget concious they can always pick up a cheap PS2.

It makes loads of sense for Nintendo to lose a few bucks on a system, if it's going to increase their customer base.

Re:Been wondering about the "loss leader" idea

[duerra]

But imagine if the Wii release price was a bit of a loss leader, a $175 sort of thing

From a marketing perspective, the difference between $179 and $199 is negligible. There is no reason for Nintendo to take any loss if the difference is less than $25 like that and still under $200. However, if the hardware comes in at $225, they'd be wise to price it at $199 anyway, since their loss on the hardware wouldn't last long, and they'd easily make it up with the sale of 1 or 2 games, or an accessory or two.

Re:Been wondering about the "loss leader" idea

[just_forget_it]

Another point about the HD screen. All these peripheral manufacturers are trying to force the world into HD when it isn't ready. Actual HD TV's are still in the $1,000s and most of us just can't justify spending that much on a piece of hardware that has limited programming available to it. Most of us are content with our standard low-def TVs and have to worry more about how we're going to pay to heat our houses in the winter than having the luxury of HD. By the time HD is in the majority of houses, the next generation of consoles will be out anyway. Nintendo is making a smart move by keeping with what most people have, not hanking on the fact that everyone is going to spend large amounts of money on a new TV so their video games are better.

Re:Been wondering about the "loss leader" idea

[timeOday]

I bet they'll go for $250.

But let's not assume that undercutting the price of XBox 360 and PS3 means they have gone far enough. Above it was stated that the hardware is only "two or three" times more powerful than the previous GameCube. If that's true, the improvement won't be eye-popping, and the screenshots may pale in comparison to the 360 and PS3. I know, I know, screenshots don't directly equate to "fun". But average Wii games might look less impressive than above-average GameCube games. If so, shelling out $225 might not be terribly attractive even to those who can afford it.

I hate to say it, but the XBox 360 might be the best tradeoff between cost and new capability this generation.

Re:Been wondering about the "loss leader" idea

[Wdomburg]

That's $300 without wireless networking, without wireless controllers, and without the ability to even save games. Coming out at a $250 with the base feature set of the Wii is still blowing the 360 out of the water.

Re:Been wondering about the "loss leader" idea

[colmore]

"Marketshare" is one of the most overrated concepts in the tech biz... at least among people who comment on it.

Think about cars. BMW doesn't have one fourth Honda's or Toyota's marketshare. They haven't put a dent in the bigger players in years and years. Should BMW be worried? Of course not. Theyr'e in a different market than Honda and Toyota. There's certainly overlap, and such, but there are enough cars being bought and sold that there are distinct ecosystems within the car marketplace, and companies can succeed and fail semi-independantly from each other. Just because people don't all own three cars, doesn't mean that all car companies are in direct a-gain-for-me-is-a-loss-for-you competition.

Videogames have become that way. Back when I really played a lot of video games, there were two consoles the Super NES and the Genesis more or less competing with each other on a feature for feature basis for an identical market. Few people owned two consoles. PC games were what your dad or older brother played, nerdy stuff like Simcity or Sierra games (which I of course loved as well -- I'll never forgive EA and the armies of l337 graphix fanboys for killing PC gaming) The market doesn't look like that any more. Many people own multiple platforms. The demographics of the industry have spread way the hell out, and a lot more people are buying video games than they used to.

Nintendo doesn't need more than 33% of the market to make a profit and secure an ironclad market niche for itself. Anyone can come along and do what Microsoft and Sony are doing, it's just stuff the most specs in the box as you can, and then shake hands with the right developers, cross your fingers and pray things come together before christmas of 20XX. Nintendo is in the business of creating demand rather than blindly meeting it. It's a bit like comparing Apple to Dell. While Sony might have a bigger piece of the pie, Nintendo is going to have a much easier time holding on to the piece that it has.

The N64 and Gamecube were both significantly flawed designs. But because there's a certain type of gaming that you get with Nintendo (and you used to get with Sega... never forget the Dreamcast...) so the fans of that style of gaming stayed on board.

Sony is going to have to drop their price fast, frankly. I don't see why anyone would buy a playstation this holiday season, and if you want that kind of gaming, Xbox 360 is giong to have a much more mature product line and not terribly deficient hardware. The idea that the PS3 is giong to be able to launch with a slow start is rather puzzling and contradictary to recent video game history.

Re:Been wondering about the "loss leader" idea

[MBGMorden]

32" CRT HDTV's are around $500 now. Yeah it's CRT technology, but still packs a great picture that is larger than a 36" SDTV screen would show in letterbox.

Also, I don't get what the thing is with parading Nintendo as doing a good thing by not "requiring HD". The other companies games don't require HD either; they just look better if you have HD available (much in the same way that Dreamcast looked better played on a VGA monitor). I don't know about you, but I don't see having the option of using a HDTV if I have one a bad thing.

Re:Been wondering about the "loss leader" idea

[mausmalone]

Given the marginalization of the GameCube, I've been wondering whether Nintendo wouldn't be smart to lose a smidge on each console this time around in order to regain market share.

Nintendo actually lost about $5 per unit on the GCN at launch. Within a few months, standard increases in efficiency brought the overhead down and the GCN was profitable from there on out. I think Nintendo might use a similar strategy with the Wii (a small loss per unit at first, and then ease in to profitability later).

Re:Been wondering about the "loss leader" idea

[just_forget_it]

It's not that so much as adding HDTV technology into these machines drive the price point up. For most of us without HDTV, it doesn't make sense to pay for something we don't use.

Re:Been wondering about the "loss leader" idea

[drsquare]

$500 is a lot for a TV, especially considering how little programming there is for it. Even then you need to spend yet more money on a special box to actually receive the signal, not to mention all the funny cables and acronyms you need to connect the thing up, and then a satellite/cable subscription to get the content.

In Europe HD doesn't even exist. In the UK if you wanted to get HD now, you'd have to spend at least a grand, and wouldn't be able to even get it installed in time for the world cup, which as far as I can see is the only thing worth watching in HD.

Re:Been wondering about the "loss leader" idea

[Meagermanx]

"I bet they'll go for $250."

If they go for $250, it'd almost be worth it to import from Japan, if it's not region-locked, like the DS.

Re:Been wondering about the "loss leader" idea

[hords]

It could end up that they sell a lot of consoles. Who wants to bet that the PS3 runs into shortages like the 360 did? The Wii might not have that problem considering the hardware isn't as "state of the art". I think Nintendo is going to kick some butt this time.

Re:Been wondering about the "loss leader" idea

[MBGMorden]

I paid $650 for my 32" SDTV not all that long ago (4-5 years). $500 is a good deal, and the recent CRT units that I've seen at this price point include the digital tuner, so you don't have to buy any seperate box. I'm already paying for a satellite subscription, so getting the HD added on is only another $10 or so per month (not a huge expense).

I will admit I still don't have one, but that's because I really want an LCD set, so I'm holding out for one of those just a bit longer (and I'm also broke from flying lessons, though I'll have my license in another month, so I'll have some extra cash available then :)). I'd really like to have a game console that can benefit from HD when I do make the jump though (which I can say for sure will be within the next year).

Re:Been wondering about the "loss leader" idea

[Bertie]

Nope. You can get a 32" Samsung CRT HDTV for £450 in your local Comet. And I don't care what any salesman tries to tell you, no plasma or LCD screen is a match for a good glass tube. Neither technology's really up to the job, and they're just filling a gap until SED or OLED TVs come on the market. If I was buying a TV now, I'd get this Samsung and get a few years out of it while I waited for the next-generation displays to iron out the inevitable initial teething problems and become affordable.

Re:Been wondering about the "loss leader" idea

[Anonymous Slacker]

With a $200-$400 difference in prices compared to the competition, I'm sure Nintendo can sell the Wii at $199 just as well as it would be able to at $175. They could probably even price it at $250 and still stores would be sold out of stock for months (and not just because of hideously bad under-supply shipments as happened with the 360), while $600+ bundle-packs of PS3s sit on the shelf collecting dust by x-mas.
(the initial shipments of PS3 will sell out to the hard-core fanboys with more money than sense, and the scalpers looking to make a few bucks re-selling on eBay. But when working-class Mom & Dad go shopping for Jr.'s present, $199 is much more affordable than $499)

Re:Been wondering about the "loss leader" idea

[blitzsieg]

Agreed. I paid $95 for my Panasonic 27" flat screen tv, and I absolutely love it.

Re:Been wondering about the "loss leader" idea

[Fross]

marginalised? you know that the gamecube, a 5 year old machine, still outsells the Xbox *360* in Japan?

just because your friends dont have them (and hey, it IS five years old) doesn't mean there aren't stacks of people out there who still have them, and still buy them.

Re:Been wondering about the "loss leader" idea

[default luser]

32" CRT HDTV's are around $500 now. Yeah it's CRT technology, but still packs a great picture that is larger than a 36" SDTV screen would show in letterbox.

But it cuts both ways. Your 16:9 widescren TV is %20 smaller than a 4:3 television when showing 4:3 content...unless you like distorted pictures.

And since the vast majority of television is still 4:3, you realize that you really need a 38" wide-screen HDTV just to get the same screen area as the 32" 4:3 TV.

This is why people don't want to "upgrade," because it often brings compromises. You either have to pay more for a larger set, or settle for a much smaller 4:3 picture, or distorted 4:3 filling a 16:9 screen.

I am not going to upgrade until the vast majority of the shows I watch are widescreen, negating this issue.

Re:Been wondering about the "loss leader" idea

[MBGMorden]

I can understand your viewpoint, but at this point virtually everything I watch is in 16:9 anyways, or is available in it.

Re:Been wondering about the "loss leader" idea

[Wdomburg]

And for most folks a SDTV is $0 because they've already got several of them.

Nintendo can hit a much lower price point and therby greatly increase their potential market by not exploiting resolutions most people can't take advantage of anyways.

Re:Been wondering about the "loss leader" idea

[ClamIAm]

Given the marginalization of the GameCube

I realize that thousands of forum bots repeat this lie every day, but that doesn't make it true. For a long time, the Cube was #2 worldwide. It was sometime in '04 or '05 that the Xbox managed to finally surpass it. Again this is WORLDWIDE sales we're talking about. Microsoft continues to flounder in Japan, with the 360 unable to surpass the Gamecube in total sales.

The bigger flaw in your logic is the implication that the mediocrity of the Gamecube somehow reflects on Nintendo as a whole, and that "market share" is the biggest goal of a company. Nintendo is not aiming to win the wank-tastic title of "number of home consoles sold". They are aiming to make money. If you look, then, at their overall business, they are doing pretty well. They don't lose money on Gamecubes. The Game Boy line basically created the handheld console market, and Nintendo has never slipped out of #1 here. They have had only 1 unprofitable quarter in their 100+ year history, and some of that was due to the exchange rate between the Yen and the US Dollar. They are doing fine.

Re:Been wondering about the "loss leader" idea

[Dis*abstraction]

Demonstrating once again that Nintendo is just Apple disguised.

Re:Been wondering about the "loss leader" idea

[catprog]

Not any more

http://forum.pcvsconsole.com/viewthread.php?tid=82 72&page=23

Re:Been wondering about the "loss leader" idea

[drsquare]

$10 per month IS a huge expense. In ten years that's $1200, TREBLING the cost of the TV.

The fact that you're having flying lessons suggests you're easily in the top 1% of wealth so I don't think you really have much to contribute to this discussion on affordability.

This just in...

[ReallyBigNumber]

In a surprise move, Nintendo announces that Elmer Fudd has been tapped as the official spokesperson for the North America release, scheduled for Q4 2006.

No further details were released at this time.

Half the cost of one, a third of the other...

[ZSpade]

This is a severe undercut... In fact there has never been such a mighty difference in prices in past console wars.(unless you count the neo-geo, meh-heh!) It will be interesting to stand by the sidelines and watch Nintendo again rise.

Re:Half the cost of one, a third of the other...

[bishiraver]

Actually, not just the neo geo have been high above the others in terms of price. Other price leaders (and failures) from each generation include:

the Intellivision (selling at approximately $825, adjusted for inflation), the Saturn (roughly $525, adjusted for inflation - Playstation was just about $390 adjusted, the N64 was about $260 adjusted, and the failure of Jaguar was smack dab between them at about $350) and the 3DO from the same generation sold for about $975 adjusted.

The only generation where the price leader outsold all others was the Playstation 2. It launched at about $350 adjusted for inflation - the gamecube at about $212 adjusted, and the Xbox for about $330 adjusted. It sold more units than the Xbox, Gamecube, and Dreamcast combined.

Of course, with nearly double the price, somehow I doubt it will do as well this time around.

Also of note: Nintendo is not taking a loss with the sale of this console (speculatively), compared to the huge losses Microsoft and eventually Sony will be selling for.

Even if it does not sell as many units as the other two - it will make more money. And that's really what counts.

Re:Shit.

[88NoSoup4U88]

The higher price of the Wii in Europe (as compared to the US) might be explained because the shippingroute (from Asia) is longer. I don't know if this is factually right, but I think it sounds quite plausible.

Wiimote

[goldaryn]

Update: 05/25 13:45 GMT by Z : GamesIndustry.biz points out they hope to ship 6 million units by next March, and an Opera exec has said you can browse the internets [sic] with the wiimote.

"One-handed" browsing! Well spotted, ed. Will be useful :-)

Re:Wiimote

[risutora]

So how many hands do you need with a mouse now?

Re:Wiimote

[pNutz]

Your other hand may be busy with your nunchuk... ...I mean manipulating your attachment ...I mean shaking your analog joystick ...I mean twisting your motion sensitive controller ...I mean operating your handheld device

I'm so sorry.

Folks always forget the VAT

[sirwired]

In the uproar over how much more consoles (or electronics in general) cost in the UK and Europe, folks always forget about the VAT. (Value Added Tax)

IIRC, in the UK, Europe, and Canada, the VAT is included in the advertised (and paid) price. In the US, the rough equivalent (Sales Tax) is never included in the advertised price (except for Gasoline for some reason). Of course, not all localities in the US charge sales tax, the amount varies depending on where you live, and the amount is lower than VAT.

A more fair comparison would be to take the VAT out of the price, and THEN compare how much the equipment costs in various countries. That determines how much the manufactuer and retailer actually receives for the console.

SirWired

Re:Folks always forget the VAT

[Anonymous Coward]

>IIRC, in the UK, Europe, and Canada, the VAT is included in the advertised (and paid) price.

Prices are not advertised with taxes in Canada either because of the different taxes for each provinces.

Re:Folks always forget the VAT

[Merlynnus]

Off topic, but in Canada, that's (mostly) not true. Advertized prices are almost always without the Provincial Sale Tax (PST) and the Goods and Services Tax (GST). The rate varies from province to province (and in the East, they've combined it into a Harmonized Sales Tax (HST)) but it runs about 14%. Of course, there's no PST in Alberta and the GST is dropping a point sometime later this summer. Regardless, just like the US, everything except gas tends to be the "before-tax" price.

Re:Folks always forget the VAT

[CrezzyMan]

Ah, no, in Canada the tax (either GST + PST or HST, same difference) is added at the register.

I expect if the launch price is $199 US, it'll be $299 Canadian, same as the GameCube, even though our respective currencies are priced quite close together at the moment.

Re:Folks always forget the VAT

[Pope]

I think most people simply forget that things in general cost more in number amounts than in the USA. A Starbucks coffee may be US$3, and in the UK it'll be 3 quid. Similar with cars, computers, etc.

Re:Folks always forget the VAT

[xsarpedonx]

Gas tax is included in the US because A: It's totally different than sales tax that is applied to everything else. B: American's would probably cry if they saw a number that big for tax.

Re:Folks always forget the VAT

[gizmo490]

VAT isn't included in the Canadian advertised price either we pay a 7% GST on top of the advertised price which is our equivalent of VAT. On top of that we pay any where from 0-10% PST (an additional sales tax) depending on where you live in the country. If you compare the Euopean price to the canadian price after all that tax it really doesnt seem like you guys are getting hosed as much. 225 US = about 250 CND + 15% total tax (for my province) = 287.50 CND = 200 Euros approximately.

Re:Folks always forget the VAT

[TheRaven64]

Off topic, I know, but does anyone know why prices do not include tax in the USA? The advertised price has to have both state and national tax added to it. When I was last there, both were around 5% (this was Utah) and both were some silly number with two decimal places so it was impossible to do the sales tax calculations in your head. You could roughly check by approximating it to 10%, but unless you wanted to take a calculator with you you couldn't tell if the till was adding on a few pennies, or if you had enough change to pay for something on you.

Do Americans get used to this? In the UK, a shop that advertised pre-tax prices[1] would be prosecuted for running a bait-and-switch scam. The price they advertise is the price you pay.

[1] The exception to this is business supplies, since businesses claim VAT back.

Re:Folks always forget the VAT

[ZombieRoboNinja]

But an even FAIRER comparison will be to do exactly what they did and let us know how much consumers can expect to PAY for it.

Why should we, as customers, care how much money the manufacturer and retailer are making? I wanna know what it's going to cost ME. The prices listed are in the format customers expect: sales tax not included for the US, VAT included for Europe.

Re:Folks always forget the VAT

[coffeechica]

What's the reasoning behind quoting before-tax prices? Are there so many customer groups who are exempted from paying the tax that it makes sense that way? Or is it just because the sellers like to be able to quote lower prices than what the customers will actually pay? It's something that has puzzled me for a while. I'm used to the European system where the price on the sticker is what you pay at the register.

Re:Folks always forget the VAT

[oudzeeman]

there is no national sales tax in the US. Just state (in most states) and local (occasionally) (for example, some counties add something like .5% to the sales tax amount to finance sports stadiums)

Some things are not taxed, like most unprepared food.

Re:Folks always forget the VAT

[(startx)]

...does anyone know why prices do not include tax in the USA? The advertised price has to have both state and national tax added to it.

This is because the tax can vary from location to location. There is no national sales tax, just state and local (county, city) sales taxes. For example, the combined sales tax in my town is 7.45%, but the tax in the town next to mine is 7.8%. Large retailers like Walmart CAN'T advertise a post-tax price, because that post-tax price varies so much from location to location.

Do Americans get used to this?

Yes. Everything (but gasoline) is shown with the pre-tax price, so you just accept it. If you're trying to calculate the final price of stuff in your head for cash transactions it's fairly easy to estimate an additional 7-8% once you're used to it. I use my debit card for practically everything now so I don't even bother trying anymore.

Re:Folks always forget the VAT

[ronanm]

Off topic, I know, but does anyone know why prices do not include tax in the USA?

  Because us Europeans have consumer protection laws?

Oh, on that point, we also have 12month guarantees which will push the price up slightly too.

Ronan

Re:Folks always forget the VAT

[syrinx]

I don't know why they don't do that either, but you're mistaken a bit, there is no national sales tax in the US. States have varying sales taxes, ranging from none to 8% or so.

Re:Folks always forget the VAT

[MountainLogic]

First there is no national VAT and the VAT, we call it sales TAX, varries state to state and even city to city (total tax = state + city tax). A few states do not have any sales tax. And yes, we are used to the fact that listed prices exclude sales tax. In my area, Seattle, taxes are almost 10% so it is easy to do the calculations.

In the US most states have their funding based on a three legged base of Sales Tax, Inclome Tax and Property Tax. The National government is almost all based on income tax. IIRC, generally states tend to be flat or slightly regressive due to thei ruse of sales tax while the national government used to be very progressive in their tax structures (progress means the rich pay at a higher rate). The current (right wing) party in power has been moving away from a progressive tax structure. I'm sure a policy wonk can (and will) correct my errors here.

Re:Folks always forget the VAT

[hex0016]

Advertised prices don't include tax for the simple reason that advertisements might be for several stores in that chain in that area. I live in Philadelphia (city/county) which charges an additional 1% sales tax over and above the 6% the state of Pennsylvania charges. But I live practically on the city limits. If I go only a few blocks away, I'm no longer being charged that 1% tax. In that context, including taxes in the advertisements is silly. That said, for some reason odd, the in-store price doesn't include the tax (but usually, the price tag reminds people about the tax... "$19.99 plus tax" for example).

Re:Folks always forget the VAT

[Kjella]

In the uproar over how much more consoles (or electronics in general) cost in the UK and Europe, folks always forget about the VAT. (Value Added Tax)

IIRC, in the UK, Europe, and Canada, the VAT is included in the advertised (and paid) price.

That's twice on two attempts you talk as if UK is not part of Europe. Let me try to make this clear:

Europe (like us in Norway) != EU (like UK) != €uro-area.

With that said, what I've found is that "generic" hardware like computer parts tend to be quite competitively priced compared with US prices, subtracting the VAT. Consoles OTOH don't follow the same pattern, because of the region coding - it's no good getting a US console here and it shows.

Re:Folks always forget the VAT

[Merlynnus]

What's the reasoning behind quoting before-tax prices?

You know, it's been some 15 years with the GST and I remember a debate at the time about incorporating it into the displayed prices ... and it seemed at the time that retailers didn't want to feel the wrath of the consuming public that prices suddenly jumped 7%. I think it's also a little anti-government: here's what we're selling it for ... and here's what the government gouges out of you. Regardless, it's been this way for so long that no one really cares any more. It really hurts on big ticket items: cars, houses, etc.

Re:Folks always forget the VAT

[KDR_11k]

Yes but as I understand it most of the US chains that came over are treated as cheap in the US whereas the prices end up placing them into the upper end of their respective sectors in Europe. Or is Starbuck's one of the more expensive coffee shops in the US, too?

Re:Folks always forget the VAT

[drinkypoo]

IIRC, in the UK, Europe, and Canada, the VAT is included in the advertised (and paid) price. In the US, the rough equivalent (Sales Tax) is never included in the advertised price (except for Gasoline for some reason).

VAT is collected from the seller. They raise their prices to reflect the tax. This makes it look like there is no tax, but everything is just really expensive. Sales tax is collected from the consumer. This makes it clear that they are paying taxes. Of course in the end the money comes from the consumer either way, but VAT is sneakier.

Anyway, isn't it legislated [at least in some places] that VAT has to be shown as part of the price? We don't have VAT so I'm not really up on this.

Re:Folks always forget the VAT

[drinkypoo]

Consoles OTOH don't follow the same pattern, because of the region coding - it's no good getting a US console here and it shows.

It doesn't matter without the region coding if you live in a PAL country. Since most video output devices only do PAL or NTSC (I have one that does both even here in the states and sold for this market, but they're very rare here and it's a commercial-style video "monitor") there's not much point in letting people select one or the other. Plus, it'd make it easier to run an import... Region coding is hardly the most significant issue.

Re:Folks always forget the VAT

[The One and Only]

Aside from the tax variance between states mentioned by sibling posters, there's also philosophical reasons--including the tax in the posted price tends to "hide" it from the taxpyaer, while having the tax as a separate line item on the receipt as we do in America makes it more apparent.

Re:Folks always forget the VAT

[Raseri]

Off topic, I know, but does anyone know why prices do not include tax in the USA?

This is because each state sets its own sales tax. For example, here in Wiisconsin it's 5 percent, but in Iillinois it's 8 percent or so, and some states don't have sales tax at all.

-Raseri

Re:Folks always forget the VAT

[soliptic]

I think you're missing the point. Obviously they can't quote tax-inclusive prices on, say, a national advertisment. But surely they should be able to run the post-tax prices on the shop floor.

Re:Folks always forget the VAT

[mausmalone]

In the US, the rough equivalent (Sales Tax) is never included in the advertised price (except for Gasoline for some reason).

Including Sales Tax in the MSRP would be impossible in the US since each state has a different set of Sales Tax laws (and usually you want the price to be the same nation wide). Some (Delaware and New Hampshire, I believe) don't have sales tax at all. The last time I was in Connecticut, it was like 8%. Here in New Jersey it's 6%.

I guess since the price of gas changes from filling station to filling station, it makes more sense to put the tax into the price (especially since it's supposed to be a super-quick process).

If we're comparing the cost, I'd rather add taxes to the MSRP than remove VAT, since that would better reflect what we're each paying. Where I live, a $250.00 console would come out to $265.00 after sales tax, which is equivalent to 141GBP according to Google.

Re:Folks always forget the VAT

[Sangui5]

Prices don't include tax mostly because the tax structure is complex. First, there is no national sales tax. Never has been, and likely never will be. There are national taxes on some specific items (e.g. gasoline, tobacco, and until just recently telephone service), but no general sales tax.

There are still, however, up to three different govenment bodies that can impose tax: the states, the counties, and individual cities. Which of these bodies does (or is allowed to) varies from place to place. The problem is that geographically, these entities can be quite small, and so you can't run an advertising campaign and report the post-tax price accurately. Two stores 10 feet away from each other can have different tax rates. But those two stores are serviced by the same media--radio, television, newspapers, billboards, etc. I've been to the same national chain restaraunt in the same metropolitan area and paid three different after-tax prices for the exact same meal. Reporting the post-tax price in infeasible.

Another compliation is that different areas treat different items differently for tax purposes. You can get different tax rates on food, prepared food, and general goods. Some places tax takeout food differently than eating in the restaraunt. Also, services aren't generally taxed (even though that would count as a "value add" under a VAT system), so when I go to a mechanic, he splits the charge between labor and parts. I get taxed only on the parts, but putting them in is untaxed.

It is important to remember that the US is geographically twice as large as the EU. Many of our states are larger than many countries (esp. Texas, or California). People in different areas have different opinions about how things ought be taxed--it would be like Italy deciding about how to tax things in the UK.

Re:Folks always forget the VAT

[jafuser]

To make it even more complicated, some places (for example, Florida) have short periods (usually a week) where there are no sales taxes on certian types of items.

For example, in the fall there is usually a week around the time before school starts where school supplies are exempt from sales tax. Currently, in preparation for the hurricane season, certain hurricane supplies are exempt from sales tax.

Re:Folks always forget the VAT

[zippthorne]

That and the fact that gas is taxed by the gallon rather than by the dollar, and at currently a higher level than sales tax would be.

Re:Folks always forget the VAT

[bigpat]

Seems like sales tax is a lot different than European VATs which are more hidden from the taxpayer, so probably can be a lot bigger.

Here is are the State tax rates in the US:

http://www.taxadmin.org/fta/rate/sales.html

Generally, between 4-6% and there is no National Sales tax... at least yet. There has been some talk recently about creating one. But nobody was too happy about the idea.

Re:Folks always forget the VAT

[pafrusurewa]

Aside from the tax variance between states mentioned by sibling posters, there's also philosophical reasons--including the tax in the posted price tends to "hide" it from the taxpyaer, while having the tax as a separate line item on the receipt as we do in America makes it more apparent.

The posted prices include taxes here (Europe), which is convenient because you can keep the exact amount ready. When you get your receipt, however, you always see the total without taxes, which taxes added how much and the total including taxes. Nothing is "hidden", it's not some evil agenda pushed by governments that people hate. It's just a measure to prevent merchants from cheating you. Prices quoted for companies (catalogues, wholesalers etc.) typically don't include VAT because it's not important for them (every time a company buys something that includes VAT, which is pretty much everything, it pays less in taxes -- it's way more complex than that, but that's really the outcome).

Re:Folks always forget the VAT

[pafrusurewa]

And to add to that, I still have a couple of dollars in pennies despite not having been to the US in years. In the US I've found it to be all but impossible to predict the post-tax price, so you can't keep the exact amount ready. Which means you end up with lots of pennies if you want to pay quickly.

Re:Folks always forget the VAT

[Wdomburg]

They're overpriced crap everywhere. :)

Re:Folks always forget the VAT

[niXcamiC]

What? You mean GST doesn't stand for Goverment Steals 'n Takes?

Re:Folks always forget the VAT

[The One and Only]

For philosophical reasons, some prefer taxes to be as obnoxious and difficult as possible so we Americans don't grow too fond of them. Considering the fact that we founded the country to get out of paying taxes, this is perhaps unsurprising.

Hopefully

[JanneM]

Could we perhaps see a Wii/DS-Lite combo pack for 40k yen? Either way, Nintendo has just sold me my new toy come winter.

The "other" price

[dlc3007]

It is even more fun to speculate on the eBay price once all the stores are sold out of them. Even if they start going for tripple the retail price, it'll still be in the same range as a loaded PS3.
Now I just need to figure out how to get my hands on two....

Re:makes the gamecube a sweet deal

[HaloZero]

Welcome to Slashdot. You must be new (260721? *shrug*) around here.

Well, that settles it...

[grasshoppa]

...I'm getting a wii, despite the name.

Both Sony and Microsoft can go fuck themselves.

Re:Well, that settles it...

[Proteus]

Both Sony and Microsoft can go fuck themselves.

Yes! Get a Wii and stick it to 'em. Erm... maybe that's not the best way to put that...

Re:Well, that settles it...

[grasshoppa]

Is that you, Satoru Iwata?

Re:Under $250 is unlikely

[LocoMan]

Maybe they could bundle it with the demos they were showing off when they unveiled the controller (like the tennis game they used at E3).. :)

Re:Shit.

[Vo0k]

No, I didn't. I live in Poland, and 225 Euro is about 2/3 of my salary (the salary being above average...)

Pack in stuff??

[saboola]

Now the only question is what will it come with. One "wiimote" or two? Credits for virtual console games? How about a game included (Wii Sports?). Come on Ninty throw us a bone here.

Headline Inaccurate

[Miraba]

Nintendo announced the MAXIMUM price, not the actual price. 25,000 yen or less, US$250 or less, and "UK pricing will be in line with Japanese and US prices announced."

Source: http://www.officialnintendomagazine.co.uk/news_250 506_wii.html

Re:Headline Inaccurate

[linvir]

It's just a shame that 'in line' means that they'll take off the $ and replace it with a £. Fuckers. I want my £150 console.

Get ready for $200

[RyoShin]

The Gamecube was also launched at 25,000 Yen in Japan. The Gamecube had a $200 price point in America.

Unless Nintendo takes into consideration fluctuations of the dollar vs. yen (not sure what the difference is between then and now), I think it's pretty safe to say that we're going to see a $200 Wii. In previous interviews (during E3, I believe) Iwata stated they've had a pretty consistent price point for releases and see no reason to change that- every console system they've released has been done so at $200.

While Nintendo may not have the latest & greatest in graphics processing, the technology they isn't exactly common. It's nice to see that they follow the trend of all other hardware, in that prices fall as technology advances (before you say "But they've all been the same price!", work in inflation, where the NES at launch cost $350 in 2005 dollars)

Re:Get ready for $200

[bishiraver]

Considering every console Ninty has made has sold for $199 on launch - the origional Nintendo, adjusted for inflation, was selling for nearly $375 dollars!

Ninty is getting cheaper, and higher quality consoles out now than they ever did. (except, way back when, they were pretty much only competing against the Sega Master System, due to the video game crash of the early 80s.)

Re:Get ready for $200

[xenocide2]

The dollar has been sliding pretty hard recently. Lots of commodities are all costing more per dollar; you could say it's about increased demand from China, etc., but the width and breadth of it is striking. In fact, because Nintendo holds a fair amount of dollars, they'll be operating at a profit but having an overall loss because the dollar is depreciating.

It'd be silly of them not to take into account inflation. In which case, it'd be closer to 250 than 200. The good news about all this inflation is that it makes outsourcing your job look less attractive ;)

Re:Get ready for $200

[be-fan]

Uh, no. The SNES was a far superior system to the GC (relatively). Back in the day, the SNES was a beast of a console. It had twice the main memory and video memory of the Genesis, and an audio DSP with more hardware channels and 8x the amount of audio memory. The video chip supported 50% more sprites, and did several tricks in hardware, such as hardware rotation, scaling, and transparency for the sprites as well as hardware transformation of the background layer. The Nintendo 64 also put its competitors to shame technically, with a CPU three times as fast, a far more powerful rasterizer, and hardware support for texture filtering and anti-aliasing. Basically, the N64 was the only console of its generation that could do 3D properly.

The Gamecube and the Wii are nowhere near the quality of the SNES and N64, as pieces of hardware. Nintendo has focus-shifted from making hardware that enables great games, to being a software company that just happens to make hardware.

Re:Get ready for $200

[Dwedit]

The SNES can not do hardware rotation of sprites by itself, only games with a SuperFX chip can do that, such as Yoshi's Island. The SNES can however do rotation of background layers. And the Genesis has more sound channels (10), although they are inferior and not sample based like the SNES.

internet? phone?

[bigkahunafish]

yes, you can browse internet...with a "Wiimote"

now all we need is a phone attachment called the "Wiicall"

Re:Shit.

[DingerX]

no. It's that Europe lists prices including VAT. US prices don't include sales tax.

Re:Under $250 is unlikely

[eonlabs]

I actually think it's very likely.
Unlike sony and msoft, nintendo is not marketing a high-spec machine for the gear heads. They're focused on delivering games, and go to great lengths to make sure that their box is used ONLY for games. Ever notice that the cds spin backwards in a gamecube?
Can you play music on a gamecube?
They're selling a platform for gaming, and have successfully been doing exactly that for over 20 years. Most gamers don't even consider $400 dollars for a system. Remember the Sega Saturn? A system that was broadcast for specs with a $400 price tag. Do we still have sega consoles?
I think 90% of consumers will end up getting the Wii simply because it hits their price range first. I don't personally get new systems till they drop below $150, I don't think Msoft or Sony will hit that mark any time soon. Until then, nintendo has a virtual monopoly on my console game purchases.

In other news,

[mobby_6kl]

Nintendo warns of weaker profits

I'm not saying Nintendo is dying, it's normal to have lower profits while preparing mass production, just thought it'd be relevant.

Re:In other news,

[Anonymous Coward]

Nintendo warns of weaker profits. They aren't warning of a loss, or a break-even. The company is still taking it to the bank. Nothing to see here, moving along.

Re:In other news,

[Zigg]

Actually, operating profits forecasted to be up -- the reason their profit forecast is down is because of foreign-exchange losses.

Nintendo holds a lot of investments in US dollars.

Re:In other news,

[mobby_6kl]

>The company is still taking it to the bank. Nothing to see here, moving along.

Well, when Microsoft missed its prediction by 0.8%, it was quite a story here on slashdot

Re:In other news,

[MadMirko]

Take note that this means they "only" got 600 milion Euros, that's ten times Sony's game division, and about as much as Microsoft's... lost.

Re:Tickets

['nother poster]

Hmm. Wii price in Japan + round trip ticket from Heathrow - £20 = Wii launch price in Britain. I think Nintendo knows how to do basic math. ;) Yeah, from everything I've read Europe gets royaly screwed on pricing, and I've never seen a good reason posited. Seen lots of reasons, just no good ones.

Re:Slightly off topic

[91degrees]

Because unlike you, we know how to leverage our leading-edge efforts into a new paradigm.

Re:Under $250 is unlikely

[creepynut]

Hmm.. there's not something I'd considered.

What IF Nintendo shipped the Wii with a game? Just like the SNES with Super Mario World when it launched, and the NES with Super Mario Bros/Duck Hunt (At least, I got Duck Hunt years ago with it). I don't recall if the N64 was released with a game at launch, but I do recall there being bundles.

On top of that, they'd be wise to ship the system with at least 2 of these "controllers" if they really want to cater to family buyers.

Think about it, a parent can go out and buy a PS3 for $600, AND a game (~$60 each) or 2, AND another controller (~30) if going multiplayer. It gets pricey.

OR, they can go buy a Wii with an included multiplayer game, and everything required for a couple kids to play it on Christmas morning. At a little more than 1/3 the price. Better yet, this perfectly supports the idea of "Wii."

it will still be pretty cheap

[jpling]

You know Nintendo... After the first few months there will be a price drop, then a few months after another drop and so on... I say it will be $249 USD at launch to clear out the early buyers and holiday season but afterwards it will probably go down by $20 and then by the time they reach 6 or 7million units they might even bring it down by another $20. That's my theory.

Re:Shit.

[TrueXtremeIcon]

I would be more apt to believe that European prices for video game consoles and games has more to do with some blatant forms of price gouging than anything else. I'm not exactly an -expert-, but I do not see how shipping to Europe or Australia is really that much harder than shipping to the United States. The only thing I coudl think of are extraneous business costs in Europe or Australia that I am not aware of. It doesn't make sense why things there are so much more expensive than their American or Japanese counterparts.

In real exchange rates

[gormanly]

¥25,000 = $223.30 = €174.79 = £119.36

¥25,000 ~= $225 /= €225 /= £150 !!!

I mean, wtf? Ok, so we all know they'll charge more in Europe than in the States or Japan, but at least do the currency conversion right.

And btw, Slashdot doesn't work right with ≅ or ≠ ...

Re:In real exchange rates

[TheLongshot]

Maybe they are taking VAT into account...

Re:In real exchange rates

[ronanm]

¥25,000 = $223.30 = 174.79 = £119.36

¥25,000 ~= $225 /= 225 /= £150 !!!

Well, you've gotta add vat onto the conversion price. Say 120% of 175... gives you 210 and 117.5% of £120 makes £140. The numbers now are starting to look a bit similar.

  It also depends on how many units they think they're going to sell in each of the territories. If they think they'll shift more in the US then they can afford to sell them cheaper.

Come on ./, get your story straight...

[nmaster64]

A) They didn't announce the price point, they announced a MAX price point, which is very different. That title is misleading.
B) You should note the fact that consoles almost never sell for the same price in different countries, no matter the exchange rates.
C) It would have been worth mentioning Iwata's recent hint: "you may want to check our past records of price points, launching price points for any past hardware." Nintendo's never NOT released a system in the US for anything other than $199.99. Take that + this guy saying it's going to be LESS than ~$225, and I don't see how you can't come to the conclusion that it's going to be $199.99.

My report on this story is here:
Wii: Almost surely $200, but still not confirmed

Re:makes the gamecube a sweet deal

[Tweekster]

I did just that yesterday, $31 on ebay for a gamecube. Games are generally running between 5-10 on ebay new and used.

Wiimote?

[Anonymous Coward]

Somewhere deep inside Nintendo's marketing dept...

Original name: Nintendo Revolution --> Short form: Nintendo Re --> voice recognition on typical japenese accent : Nintendo Wii

And we have a winner

200 USD/Euro launch price pretty much confirmed.

[dorbabil]

Anoop's blog over at IGN had a post that included a rumor about how Nintendo was set to announce their launch price of 199.99 USD and 25000yen, but decided to reconsider after seeing Sony's price. I think it's pretty much a given that it'll sell for 199.99 USD in the US, and given the track record of charging the same numerical value in Euros as they do in USD, it'll probably cost 200 Euros as well. It's a good thing.

Re:Shit.

[GeckoX]

Not to be rude, but so what? Should Nintendo take a loss so they can sell you a console that is only 1/4 of your salary? or is that too high...how about 1/10th?

What other consoles do you have? Or is this kind of stuff simply overly expensive in Poland? You do know that you don't have to buy one right?

Or, to look at it another way that may make more sense: What percentage of your salary would a new car be? (Something modest and reasonable) Oh, you can't afford it on this pay? Well, it must be too expensive then.

I expect to pay more than my weekly salary on certain things, especially things that are high tech and will get used a HUGE amount over a number of years. It's nice to think the world would be great if EVERYTHING was affordable on this weeks salary, but I really hope you don't have your hopes up!

Re:Under $250 is unlikely

[SeanMon]

If they bundled Duck Hunt...
/me remembers the last time he played Duck Hunt... 5 days ago!

What a great game, and what an amazing (potential) incentive for buying the Wii.

Re:Tickets

[tehcyder]

Europe gets royaly screwed on pricing, and I've never seen a good reason posited

The reason is the simplest and oldest in the book: because they can get away with it.

It's called Capitalism.

You are a pain in the ass

[Anonymous Coward]

"Until we get official numbers, though, this is all speculation."

Yes, I believe the original article said that.

In other news, water is wet, the sun is hot, and lawyers are not always ethical (you can take these little ideas and run with them, tiger).

The fact that people have marked you as "insightful" says two things: (a) in general people are stupid (b) since people do the moderating, we've got primarily stupid moderators.

Re:You are a pain in the ass

[Guppy06]

"Yes, I believe the original article said that."

The summary didn't.

Re:You are a pain in the ass

[drinkypoo]

We all know the editors are useless and [typically] only post submissions from their friends and disciples. Granted, we also all know that nobody Rs TFA but that's their own damned fault. People making comments that make it clear they haven't done so can be safely disregarded, except when they get modded up...

Re:Under $250 is unlikely

[AKAImBatman]

I don't recall if the N64 was released with a game at launch, but I do recall there being bundles.

It wasn't. Mario64 was sort of a killer title for the N64 and was thus sold separately. That being said, part of the need to sell it separately was that Catridges were very costly back then. Now that the Wii uses inexpensive optical disks, it is again cost effective to bundle a game with the system.

The only question then is, what is Nintendo's strategy? The market has gotten used to the idea that pack-ins are a thing of the past. Will Nintendo go with the flow on this one, or will they attempt to do further damage to Sony and Microsoft's positions by throwing in a killer title with the console?

Personally, I hope they take the pack-in route. Not only will it make their competitors look bad, but it might force them to cough up a pack-in themselves. Which given the costs associated with developing a game on their consoles, would further dig in their losses on each unit.

Internets?

[madnuke]

''Update: 05/25 13:45 GMT by Z : GamesIndustry.biz points out they hope to ship 6 million units by next March [CC], and an Opera exec has said you can browse the internets with the wiimote [CC].'' What are these internets you speak off?

Re:Shit.

[voice_of_all_reason]

UK businesses have to charge more for electronics because they are required to open each device up and check for terrorists first.

What??? Flawed logic

[porkThreeWays]

It doesn't work like that. They didn't just do a straight conversion of exchange rate. They took other factors into account too. Also, it makes no sense to convert from yen (+ other factors) to Euros (+ other factors), to US dollars (+ other factors). If you are going to compare a direct conversion of Yen to US Dollars it comes out to about 220 dollars. However, there are other factors. Things that may seem as silly as how the price rolls off the tongue. History of their other console launch prices. What other systems are actually selling for. Whether the console will be produced in that country or imported. Supply. Demand. Many other factors.

Re:What??? Flawed logic

[Vo0k]

If I'm going to do a direct conversion from Dollars to Euros, like I just did, it comes out I'll be paying over 60 bucks more than you, and that's why I curse.

Re:Under $250 is unlikely

[creepynut]

The market has gotten used to the idea that pack-ins are a thing of the past. Will Nintendo go with the flow on this one, or will they attempt to do further damage to Sony and Microsoft's positions by throwing in a killer title with the console?

Nintendo has already gotten the whole "think different" thing going for them, why not do something else a little different than everyone expects?

Ok, never mind about Canada....

[sirwired]

I was mistaken about Canada, I thought it was rolled in to the price. Oops.

SirWired

Re:Slightly off topic

[AKAImBatman]

Why do people say "price point" instead of "price"?

Because we're discussing things in business terms. When you look at marketing a product like a game console, pricing becomes a major marketting factor. As a result, a random price like $231.45 would be a poor choice. (Even if you could sell it for less that way.) Instead, marketeers will develop a set of price "points".

i.e. Should the Wii sell at $149.99, $199.99, $249.99, or $299.99?

Each price "point" is carefully analysed for marketting potency as well as expected returns. The idea is to select one of those points that will meet your goals as well as maximize profits. (Or minimize losses in some forms of the razor-blade model.)

As a result, everyone is trying to second guess Nintendo's choice in price points. Will they hold to tradition and sell for $199.99, or will they maximize profits on each unit and sell for $249.99. Or at the extremes, will they shock the world with a $149.99 price point? Or will they not be able to meet cost predictions and hit the $299.99 price point?

Clear as mud? :-)

Re:Zonk again

[voice_of_all_reason]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internets_(colloquial ism)

It's a joke, son.

Re:Under $250 is unlikely

[SavedLinuXgeeK]

Didn't the original NES come with Super Mario Brothers/Duckhunt? Maybe Nintendo realized how much that attracted new comers, and realizes its a good move. It makes someone feel like they are buying something worthwhile. It feels weird to own a console, and have yet to buy a game. You always want something to play, and Nintend knows that.

Re:Slightly off topic

[AKAImBatman]

P.S. There's a Wikipedia Article on the matter. Note in the graph how sales droop between price points.

Re:Shit.

[rbarreira]

Just because he says "Shit" it doesn't mean he's complaining, does it?

BTW, I don't think he was talking about weekly salary. Yes, I'm not kidding.

Sounds like a fair deal *cough*

[wertarbyte]

http://www.google.com/search?q=225+US%24+in+EUR So why do we europeans have to pay 50 US$ more for the same console?

Re:Sounds like a fair deal *cough*

[not already in use]

For what is officially called the "non-American Tax."

Re:Sounds like a fair deal *cough*

[AtOMiCNebula]

VAT? VAT is included in advertised European prices, wheras sales taxes are not included in advertised American prices. I'm not saying it's entirely that, it's just that the American price isn't what we'll be paying, whereas the European price is what you're likely to pay. Besides, this is still speculation for non-Japanese prices, so don't worry just yet.

More like... $225, 225 euros, and £225

[InsaneLampshade]

225 dollars, 225 euros, and 150 pounds." We always get screwed over in the UK, i'd say £225 is more likely.

Re:More like... $225, 225 euros, and £225

[rbarreira]

You can always try buying one on ebay... Mmmm, will the customs office fuck you then? I'm not sure, but it might be the case.

Re:More like... $225, 225 euros, and £225

[InsaneLampshade]

Yep, customs like to screw us over too... along with the royal mail postal service with their "handling charge" which is often higher than the customs charge itself. =/

Re:More like... $225, 225 euros, and £225

[bishiraver]

Really? things double in price over there? You're paying 4/500 pounds for a 360? (that's nearly 750/936 or so US dollars) Somehow that's pretty difficult to believe... A quick look on amazon confirms that the 360 is selling for £279.99 over there, or about $522 USD. That's about a 20% markup, not a 100% markup. Yeah, it's a lot. But sheesh.. too much hyperbole and people start calling you a blowhard.

Re:More like... $225, 225 euros, and £225

[iainl]

True. However, our PSP Value Packs are £180, our PS3 will be £425, and XBox 360 games cost £50. So yes, we get absolutely reamed on game sales.

Re:More like... $225, 225 euros, and £225

[rbarreira]

225/150 = 1.5 so he was claiming 50%, not 100%.

Re:Shit.

[kfg]

Dude, Europe is Asia, in the sense that it's a penninsula of the same landmass. About 7000 miles from Beijing to Paris, all overland. About 8000 miles from Beijing to NYC, much of it over water.

KFG

Re:Shit.

['nother poster]

Yeah, that is more likely a monthly salary number. Still, given that, if any console was 2/3 of my monthly I would most likely pass on it.

Re:Slightly off topic

[Straif]

Sadly, that's exactly how my Director sounds when he talks.

Wish I still had some mod points hanging around to bump you up.

Why argue

[suv4x4]

200 or 225, does it matter :) The news is the confirmation it'll not be $400 nor $600 :)

Re:Why argue

[masklinn]

Or 150... yeah it matters, if they decide to price the Wii for $200 i'll get one no brainer, if they go for $225-$250 i'll have to check with myself (and see the content of the bundle), if they surprise everyone and go for $150 i'll get two (one for home, one for office) the day of release.

Re:Why argue

[British]

I really do hope they bundle some games with it. I can't even remember the last time I saw a console & game bundle. When did game consoles generally phase out pack-ins?

Nintendo could easily bundle some classic NES & whatever else older console games. They would then be able to demonstrate their virtual console thingy and parents wouldn't feel presured to buy a new game off the bat. Thus, the incentive to buy it goes up.

Hopefully there will be a freebie game or 2 that makes full use of the wiimote.

C'mon Nintendo, pack in a game or three. They don't have to be huge AAA titles to be packed, but something to get them started.

Re:Why argue

[BenjyD]

There are several official Nintendo DS bundles (Mario Kart, Nintendogs etc). I think they mostly just leave it up to the retailers these days.

Re:Zonk again

[menace3society]

but it's "I"nternet and there is only one of them.

I see. So this thing is just a figment of my imagination? If you're going to criticize someone for being a dumbass, you'd better be careful not to be a dumbass yourself.

Re:makes the gamecube a sweet deal

[jj00]

This applies to most of the computer industry too - you can save a lot of money just by living in the wake of the newest technology.

However, since the Wii will have support for the Gamecube controllers, I wonder if the price of those controllers will stay higher. Especially if the Wii remote ends up being a complete flop.

Quality Over Quantity?

[Kortec]

So only 6 million Revolutions by next march? That doesn't sound too good to me. A quick look at the factbook page for Japan says that Nintendo has 67%, or roughly 80 million, people in the 15-60 range to sell to, just in Japan. I'd say that they're going to need at least 10 million units to launch there alone, and considering that basically everyone in the rest of the world wants one too, 6 million by March just isn't going to cut it.

With the current trend of things for this console, I hope Nintendo isn't going to intentionally under produce. They've been intentionally playing the carrot-on-the-stick game with us in terms of details about the system for a good while now, but it has to end eventually, and production would be a nice time to.

Re:Quality Over Quantity?

[InsaneGeek]

In the 4 years from 2001-2005 Nintendo sold around 20million units *total* of gamecube. You are insane to think that in less than a years time that they will sell out half of that number to a single country.

Re:Quality Over Quantity?

[Slappytron]

So only 6 million Revolutions by next march? That doesn't sound too good to me.

Assuming Wii launches in October, that's about a million a month, which is above the Xbox 360's pace (which in turn, is selling faster than PS2 at launch).

6 million would be over 25% of the total number of Gamecubes sold (about 21mil). It would be about 10% of the total number of NES's sold (around 60mil). It seems like a very reasonable target, especially for launch when production has not yet ramped up.

Re:Quality Over Quantity?

[mausmalone]

But that's assuming it launches in October. If you assume late november (black friday ish) then the 6 million figure seems downright ambitious.

Re:Quality Over Quantity?

[be-fan]

Are you insane? Nintendo only sold 20m Gamecubes worldwide, over the life of the system. You think they're going to sell that many Wii's just at launch?

I think you drastically overestimate the interest in the Wii. Outside Slashdot, its not on the radars of most gamers.

Re:Quality Over Quantity?

[Chanc_Gorkon]

Um....huh??? Did you see the E3 reports?? The Wii is the hotness. Initially the name was made fun of. When they saw Nintendo was serious about games and doing something new and original instead of a hardware bump...

Re:200 USD/Euro launch price pretty much confirmed

[Zed2K]

If it ends up coming out at $199 and they can have it out before the holidays they will sell a ton. But they need to have enough for everyone to buy. At the $199 price point it will be a no brainer purchase for many folks.

Re:Internets?

[seant9]

He spelled it this way on purpose. "Internets" is a slang term for the Internet that has been going around lately. I have no idea who started it or why. I first heard it on G4's "Attack of the Show!" and thought they had lost their friggin' minds.

Re:Zonk again

[oldbenway]

"Internets" is a reference to what george bush called it in one of his debates in 2004. Shame on you for not getting the joke.

Re:Shit.

[88NoSoup4U88]

Yes, and shipping is cheaper than transport over land afaik.

But thanks for the geography lesson :P

Re:200 USD/Euro launch price pretty much confirmed

[Blahbooboo3]

And, given the dollar to euro exchange rate, a lot of europeans will end up buying it in/from the USA!

Re:Tickets

['nother poster]

You need to read a bit about what capitalism is, how it evolved, and how it is defined. I see you use a capital C when typing it as if it were a proper noun like it's something to be worshipped. I assume what you meant was free market. Even in free markets there are reasons that pricing structures exist.

So that's like $500 USD

[WillAffleckUW]

given the way our currency is become worth less all the time, right?

Seriously, though, $225 is a great price, which means you can pick it up at Costco for probably $199 around Christmas in a game bundle.

Cost Comparison

[Kryptic Knight]

After taking in account various factors, the conversion to other currencies comes down to a launch price of: 225 dollars, 225 euros, and 150 pounds

Oh how I laugh at your cost comparison.
What you have no concept of is how we in the UK get gouged by the hardware manufacturers.

The rule of thumb is that if its 225 EURO/DOLLAR then its going to be 225 (or more) POUNDS.

And what do we get for this remarkable costhike .. a UK power lead .

I wait with trite anticipation of correction when the prices are announced in the UK.

Re:Cost Comparison

[BenjyD]

The Gamecube was 25,000 Yen in Japan at launch and was £130 IIRC in the UK. That included a price cut in response to competition, though, so £150 is probably a good guess.

Re:Cost Comparison

[iainl]

These days, the Euro to Pound conversion is a lot more reasonable than it used to be. Because European law bans Nintendo from stopping Tesco and friends from sourcing a machines from Belgium (or wherever in the EU) and selling them in the UK, or making the rest of Europe a different region.

Re:Cost Comparison

[dhamsaic]

You also pay 17.5% in VAT. It's not entirely the hardware companies, it's the legislators as well, so let's give credit where credit is due.

Also, the United States market is huge in comparison with the UK market. You guys get shafted, sure, but companies are willing to go lower here because they will move more units, which means moving more games, which is where the money is made.

Besides, you guys paid, at launch, 129 GBP for the GameCube. Not 199, which is what would follow your rule.

So basically, quit your bitching.

Re:Cost Comparison

[pafrusurewa]

You also pay 17.5% in VAT. It's not entirely the hardware companies, it's the legislators as well, so let's give credit where credit is due.

Well, he compared it to Euros as well. We have 20% VAT here and the Euro amount I pay for many hardware components (post-tax) is often the same as the dollar amount in the US (pre-tax). The Euro is worth about 20% more than the US dollar, so it makes sense. Which means that the UK seems to get screwed in that respect and VAT has nothing to do with it.

Re:200 USD/Euro launch price pretty much confirmed

[dorbabil]

It hasn't really happened before, has it?

The majority of imports come from the fact that the system usually comes out so much earlier in other markets. You'd probably pay more in shipping and customs to get one from the US than the difference would be to just go out and buy one from the store. I seriously doubt that there will be that big of an import craze.

$250 with a bundled game is unlikely

[ronanm]

And, yes, hopefully with a game.

I think shipping it with a game is unlikely, but....

  We know there's going to be a "virtual console" that will allow people access to play older games. I think it's likely that they will offer some kind of free access to that and the ability to download/play wii demos.

Obligatory Bush joke...

[Jorkapp]

...an Opera exec has said you can browse the internets [sic] with the wiimote.

I hear there's rumors on the uh...

Re:Shit.

[spxero]

Here's a link showing salaries in Poland. It's four years old, but still somewhat relevant.

Indeed. It's all going to depend on...

[Svartalf]

...whether or not the developers get on board with Nintendo and produce cool titles and innovative ones. I do like the GC compatibility that's rumored to be in the Wii (That means I probably ought to be on the prowl for GC titles again... :-) and that it's nicely more capable than the GC. If they get studios on board they'll clean both Microsoft's and Sony's clocks with the pricing the way it is. Sure, you've got a more "powerful" machine with the other two- but there's not been really all that many titles out at rollout (definitely not for X-Box 360) that USE that power, and you've got to get an expensive HDTV monitor to really see the advantage, and... I honestly don't know what the other two companies were thinking when they came out with this generation of consoles.

All things considered

[EtherC]

Max Japanese price: 25,000 yen
Remove included tax: 25,000 / 1.05 = 23,810 yen
Factor in realistic JPY -> USD expectation of exchange rate for 2006 4th qtr. (not today's): 23810 * 0.0086 = $204.77
All past Nintendo consoles: $199.99
Difference: $204.77 - $199.99 = $4.78
Compute significance: (4.78 * 540) - (239 * sum(4 8 15 16 23 42)) = 0
Most likely US price: $199.99

(Special thanks to the Hanso Foundation for their significance formula)

Re:All things considered

[not-admin]

I think you LOST me there....

Re:All things considered

[Hillgiant]

(1) Max Japanese price: 25,000 yen
(2) ???
(3) Most likely US price: $199.99

(Special thanks to the Underpants Gnome Foundation for their significance formula)

Re:Shit.

[kfg]

Yes, and shipping is cheaper than transport over land afaik.

By Asian rail, yes, it typically is, despite sea being more fuel efficient.

But thanks for the geography lesson :P

Especially since they're closer.

In any case the added shipping costs for an extra thousand miles or so per unit are essentially nil, the majority of the cost of transportion being in handling, not in the actual transport.

If I hand carry a small package for you 100 miles overnight my capital and fuel expenditures will be about five bucks. My labor will cost you $100.

Why did steam replace sail, even though the wind is free? Not because steam was faster, in the early days it wasn't, nor because it was more reliable, in the early days it wasn't, but because it cost more in labor to use wind than the fuel cost of steam. It takes more men to man a sail than an engine.

It's the teamsters that set the price of transporting goods, not the distance.

KFG

Why the short stock?

[gatesvp]

From the Nintendo magazine link

Talking of units, Nintendo also confirmed that 6 million Wii consoles will be released worldwide at launch, with a further 17 million games being made available.

When the X-box released before x-mas, they sold every single one. Heck, my little bro had his pre-paid at EB in November. We received it in February. If they're going to sell out, why don't they just make more before they start selling? MS doesn't make more money from people re-selling the unit on e-bay, but MS lost a lot of goodwill by failing to deliver a unit in reasonable time.

MS just became a running joke b/c so many people had ordered systems and not received them. I'm sure that this hurt them. I heard rumours of supply-chain issues and given ATI's own supply-chain problems, this may have been true. But, truth or no, it didn't get more systems in more houses, it actually gave potential buyers less exposure, b/c nobody had a system.

I would've bought an XBox 360 in December, I was hyped about them, the marketing blitz was on and I was keen on owning one. But hey, I couldn't buy one! My buddy with the 50" hi-def TV, he couldn't buy one! Nobody could buy one, so we all just moved on. I spent $600 playing Magic instead and now I still don't own a 360 (nor does my buddy :).

But now I hear that Nintendo will have only 6 million units at launch and it's like these marketing guys know something that we don't. I mean, at $250 each, they're going to sell out. And last I heard, sold out products meant lost potential profits! If people want my product and they can't buy it, then I'm giving them the opportunity to just spend their money elsewhere.

This Nintendo Wii is going to spread like wildfire. Casual gamers are going to come out of the cracks, people will marvel at the interactive gaming, just like people who stare at the DDR machines in the movie theatre arcades. But if I have to tell all of my jealous friends (& family) that they cannot have the instant gratification of owning their own system (b/c Nintendo didn't make enough systems) then they're going to move on the Next Big Thing.

Having a limited number of consoles makes the console a highly-valued item, it does not put more consoles in households, it does not increase the system's exposure, it does not sell more games, it just makes people angry that they can't own one of their own.

Re:Why the short stock?

[EtherC]

Next Big Thing? What company makes that?

...Man am I behind the times - I want one!

Re:Why the short stock?

[xtieburn]

You cant just make any amount of units for the following reasons.

1. Storage space. Holding a million units of something for a month is going to require a huge storage space and as a result huge costs for keeping that storage space in check.

With a lack of infinite storage space you want to be making units as near as you can to deadline so you dont have to fork out a crap load of cash to keep units sitting around doing nothing. However, after a few months of selling you will only want say a million units a month. So.

2. You cant gear up the factories enough to make much more than your fixed million a month. Which applies a restriction on just how many you are churning out.

The only other option you have is to get more factory space on the go working on making new units. However, this factory equipment costs staggering amounts and as I said youll only want a million a month soon enough. So.

3. You cant buy up a crap load of factory space and equipment because it will all have to be discarded after a few months and will cost a metric shit load in the meantime.

So basically you have a large balancing act. Do you poor money in to storage space and keep a slow and steady production which will mean you have to have that storage space maintained for months on end?
Do you poor money in to new factory equipment knowing full well itll be sat doing nothing after the initial bursts of sales? Or do you stick with what you ahve and invariably have horrendous shortages.

Usually people opt for a mixture of all three but it rarely meets the full demand. ITs just a fact of business and not, as many people seem to believe, a tactic to show off how popular the console is. No one ever made money out of this kind of thing.

Re:Why the short stock?

[Jarlsberg]

From the Nintendo magazine link
Talking of units, Nintendo also confirmed that 6 million Wii consoles will be released worldwide at launch, with a further 17 million games being made available.

17 million games? Boy, they sure did get a lot of developers on board this time around...

Re:Why the short stock?

[vga_init]

I spent $600 playing Magic instead

omg...

Re:Why the short stock?

[gatesvp]

Hey, hey, so I understand that there is a balancing act. But making consumers wait for 2 or 3 months to purchase a new product is a huge failure.

And really, as a consumer, I don't care about the "balancing act". Though I appreciate complexity, someone at Nintendo or MS or Sony is very well paid to manage that complexity. Their job is to put product in the hands of those who want to pay for it.

If this means that they charge more for the first shipment (while providing some special promo, like a free faceplate), and as a result they just barely sell out; then they've met the demand. Sure some people might be annoyed, but they have the comfort of knowing that the they'll get their system cheaper on the next shipment. And the guys who paid "too much" will have the glory of being the "first on their block".

And hey, now nobody's unhappy! Those people who couldn't afford the system didn't buy it (and vice-versa). Those who own a system have exclusivity. System-maker has their money, they've helped mitigate the extra warehousing costs and people who want the system can purchase one off of the shelf. In 3 or 6 or 9 months, the price will drop and those people who previously couldn't afford the system will now be in price-range and we sell more systems without missed sales.

But now I'm being pedantic, this is economics 101!

Suffice to say that failure to provide enough systems at launch is truly a colossal failure. Nintendo's current advantage is their low price-point. PS3's current weakness is their high price-point. But if I can't buy either come November (b/c they're both sold out), then what's the difference? I'll just spend my x-mas money on something else and buy the Nintendo later (maybe next x-mas).

In the meanwhile though, I'm won't be buying high-margin accessories or games, I'll spend that money elsewhere. I'm not going to buy more games in July just to make up for the games I didn't buy in February (I already spent February's money)! So failure to provide me a system in November means lost potential sales until I do buy a system...

So how much did that warehousing cost? :)

Re:Shit.

[jusdisgi]

Well I'll be damned! They finally did add currency conversion...when the calculator first came out that was the one thing they left out that I wanted most. I hadn't even tried today...just went to xe.com like always to make sure that the headline was stupid and the dollar hadn't really just magically gotten 30% stronger while I was sleeping...

Cool!

Re:200 USD/Euro launch price pretty much confirmed

[SenorCitizen]

And, given the dollar to euro exchange rate, a lot of europeans will end up buying it in/from the USA!

Almost no Europeans would buy one from the USA. First off, we have a different TV system, and the consoles sold in America are preset to NTSC. Second, there will probably be region limitations set by Nintendo. Third, even if there aren't any region codes, not all PAL games will happily work on NTSC consoles, and vice versa. And finally, when you import stuff from outside the EU you'll have to pay VAT if the value of the import is higher than something, in my case about 45 EUR. So, $200=(158+20(postage))*1.22=217.16, and that's assuming there's no import duty on gaming consoles.

Re:makes the gamecube a sweet deal

[barawn]

i dunno about the old xbox though, since that might just go away completely.

New, at least. Part of the problem here is that the Xbox is decent COTS equipment: it is just a PC, after all, and hacking it at this point is really, really trivial. So unfortunately, Xboxes still command a hefty resale point on eBay: you'll never get a working one for much under $100, for instance. Heck, a broken one sells for $50 on eBay.

It's fairly insane how well the Xbox is maintaining its value compared to a GameCube and a PS2.

except the sales tax varies...

[YesIAmAScript]

In the US sales tax varies by state. Some states don't have sales tax at all. And even if your state does have sales tax, some people are very good at avoiding paying it (by ordering from another state).

So yeah, for the typical case you might want to compare prices by adding sales tax to the price. But for the crafty consumer, sales tax is avoidable, and so you won't be representing what they pay very well.

Opera Wiimote

[Epyn]

I'm not too certain that the remote with an onscreen keyboard will be easy to use, certainly not at 480p. Since these things are coming with bluetooth remotes I have a feeling they'll be some BT keyboards floating around within the launch hours, possibly just support for third party ones. /Price point will be 200 or 250, doesn't really matter much either way.

Re:Opera Wiimote

[metaphorever]

From wii.nintendo.com: "The Specs: Wii boasts 512 megabytes of internal flash memory, two USB 2.0 ports and built-in Wi-Fi capability."

Bluetooth will be nice for the people who want to use wii for more serious, in depth web browsing, but for most people it should be enough to hook up a usb keyboard to enter in, and bookmark, the few sites that they frequent (or import their bookmarks over the wifi) and just use the wiimote to point and click their way around. Opera on the PC already has incredible mouse guesture support, so I can only hope that on the Wii version will support a similar interface. If I want to read or write large amounts of text online or research something on google I will go to my computer, this isn't what opera for the wii is really about. opera on the Wii will make it easy to bookmark your favorite sites letting you, for instance, check for the latest penny-arcade without having to get up. This casual point and click kind of web browsing is what nintendo is trying to achieve, they are not trying to take the place of the computer for serious, typing intensive, internet use.

Re:Opera Wiimote

[sarcasticfrench]

Even if there are no bluetooth keyboards, you should be able to use a USB keyboard with the built in USB ports. Considering there are two USB ports, I'm guessing one for a wifi attachment, and one for a keyboard.

Re:Internets?

[TheRaven64]

Internets would not be correct, however internets is. An internet is simply any network of networks. The Internet is a specific network of networks that contains (among other things) Slashdot, and has addresses assigned by the IANA. Some of the other internets use the same physical network as this, but run over VPNs. Some are completely separate. I presume the Wii can browse any of them that it is connected to.

Re:Shit.

[Vo0k]

>Should Nintendo take a loss so they can sell you a console that is only 1/4 of your salary?

Would it really hurt them that much if I paid just what an average American pays instead?

Re:Slightly off topic

[rolfwind]

I think William Zinsser would have something to say on this topic:

http://www.cla.wayne.edu/polisci/kdk/general/sourc es/zinsser.htm

Re:Under $250 is unlikely

[msh104]

well, one thing IS sure, there IS going to be another duck hunt game for wii.
http://revolution.ign.com/articles/706/706955p1.ht ml
don't know if they bundle it..
but it would be great :D

Re:Zonk again

[ZombieRoboNinja]

You think the Wii is going to be able to hook up to Internet2? The research university pipeline? Really?

I think it's fair to say that Wii only will be surfing the singular-Internet-with-a-capital-"I", and Zonk was being colloquial.

Re:Under $250 is unlikely

[solive1]

The first run of Nintendo DS did come with a demo of Metroid Prime: Hunters. I think the Wii will come with Wii Sports as a sort of demo title.

Then blame your compatriots...

[m0rtadelo]

...who preferred good olde pound over new euro some time ago. Stick to the british tradition for the sake of God and the Queen.

Re:200 USD/Euro launch price pretty much confirmed

[Tibor the Hun]

Not only that, but if a customer looks at the display of 2 systems side by side, I would bet that most of them could not tell a difference between Wii and 360.
Particles and antialiasing are nice, but they don't matter as much as fluid animation.
Throw in the 200 bucks price difference and parents and fence-sitters will vote with their wallets.

Re:Shit.

[Irish_Samurai]

Consumers in Poland have an average salary of X. Y number of consumers in Poland have historically bought Nintendo consoles. Using X and Y, product managers and marketers evaluate how many units they can sell at each price point. The best Unit Sold/Cost ratio is where the price is set for that area.

In America, Nintendo can make WAY more of a profit by selling the console for less because more people will buy it here in numbers that will justify the lower pricing. Poland doesn't have the average level of disposable income available to a demographic large enough to demand a lower price. So Nintendo charges more to maintain an acceptable margin.

The above depends on a handful of things...

[Svartalf]

1) That the $300 core system X-Box 360 is capable of playing most of the titles offered or playable by the $400 system (Doesn't look to be the case, in all honesty...). It looks like you're going to have to get the $400 system to play all the possible titles out there- including the older X-Box titles. That makes that Core System price point a non-play in most cases.

2) That PS2 games will continue to be released for a while to come. Keep in mind that there will probably be some PS2 titles rolling out after the release of the PS3, but it's NOT in Sony's interests to keep that going for very long. Once that occurs, the cutoff, your source of new content for the console will dry up. From there on out, you're dealing in the used market solely. Sure, you can get PSOne titles still, new in the box- but those are "classics" and what was in the retail channel when the PS2 came out. Nobody has been producing titles for the PSOne since the PS2 came out. I know, there's lots to choose from- but anyone that is going that route wouldn't have bought a new console anyhow.

Guess what? It still looks promising for Nintendo at a $250 price- new content, new ideas, etc. But, in reality, I suspect they'll be rolling out the Wii at the $200 MSRP because that's what they've ALWAYS released a machine at in the US since they did the NES... And, at $200 for the initial rollout price, it's a fairly compelling deal if they can play old GC titles AND have a nice stable of new titles- which it looks like they might have at rollout.

Re:The above depends on a handful of things...

[ronanm]

I know the full 360 is better than the Core, and if I didn't I could guess. People are still buying it though. And it's going to be the closest price (next gen) system to the Wii.

There are masses and masses of games available on the PS2, Sony may pull the console from the market sometime, but it's still a decent machine for people who think $250 is too much money to spend at Christmas.

I'm not considering getting a 360 or PS2 for myself. The Wii is going to be shiny,

Guess what? It still looks promising for Nintendo at a $250 price- new content, new ideas, etc. But, in reality, I suspect they'll be rolling out the Wii at the $200 MSRP because that's what they've ALWAYS released a machine at in the US

Why are you arguing with me and then saying that the price is prob going to be $200? :)

They're not going to sell the Wii at $200 because they sold every other console at $200, that's stupid! I'm not trying to annoy you but it's not a good reason, they'll sell the console at whatever price they decide will get them the most overall sales and revenue.

Ronan

Re:The above depends on a handful of things...

[assassinator42]

"They're not going to sell the Wii at $200 because they sold every other console at $200, that's stupid!" Why? People are expecting it to be $200, and they might be a bit disappointed if it were higher. Plus, as someone else said, $199.99 looks better. Microsoft might also drop the 360 core price to $250, and I think Nintendo would want the Wii to be cheaper.

Re:The above depends on a handful of things...

[ronanm]

"They're not going to sell the Wii at $200 because they sold every other console at $200, that's stupid!"

Why? People are expecting it to be $200, and they might be a bit disappointed if it were higher.

That's a better reason.

$199.99 looks better.

That's another.

Microsoft might also drop the 360 core price to $250, and I think Nintendo would want the Wii to be cheaper.

Yeap, I agree with you there too. $199 is a much better pricepoint than $249. If they can make a profit selling 6million units at ~$225 (25,000yen) then they're either going to sell it for $199 and make a small loss with bigger sales and recoup it all on profits from addons and games, or they're going to sell it for $250 but with much smaller sales. The only reason it might be more than $199 is because the dollar is very weak atm. However, none of us are on the board of Nintendo.

Personally I think because everyone is expecting $199, they should sell it for $179...

Re:The above depends on a handful of things...

[ejp1082]

Personally, I think because everyone is expecting $199, they should sell it for $199 with a bundled game. So you can spend 200 bucks and actually not have to spend more than that to be able to play something. When was the last time a game console did that? The SNES generation I think?

Re:The above depends on a handful of things...

[Lehk228]

a credit for one free first party NES, one SNES and one N64 download title, that will get people using the download system right away and let people play with their Wii as soon as they get it.

Re:The above depends on a handful of things...

[IpalindromeI]

I'm betting that Wii Sports will come bundled, along with two controllers instead of one. Here's why:

• Wii Sports probably didn't cost that much to develop, so giving it away basically for free would be much more reasonable than say, the new Mario.
  
• It's a light, fun game rather than something really intense. It reaches out to that new market they're going after.
  
• It would really showcase the new controller.
  
• Two controllers to get into that "we" spirit of playing with others, something that Wii Sports would work well with.
  

Price Ceiling for U.S. Cost

[Secret Agent Man]

According to Nintendo, the price of the Wii in the United States "will not exceed $250 in America."

I'm definitely getting my hands on this baby this fall.

Re:Slightly off topic

[End11]

Bingo.

Never at a loss!

[_KiTA_]

Nintendo has never sold a console at a loss, instead just deciding to intelligently design their consoles to be powerful enough to do what they want, without needing bleeding edge tech to knock the price out of the range of profitability.

The result is that going into this generation, Nintendo is the only profitable one out of the big three -- Sony and Microsoft both lose money every single quarter on their console devisions, Nintendo *makes* more money than Sony loses.

A year ago their Quarterly profit was down 80% but this year It has jumped 12.5%. Around the same time Nintedo had a drop in profit, Sony and MS were still running WELL into the red (last paragraph).

So, uh, yeah. Staying within their means has managed to keep Nintendo, dispite not being #1, nicely afloat and profitable, which is something the other two cannot say. I cannot imagine them doing anything different this time.

Ripped a new one

[clown_puncher]

Personally I think the consumers are getting ripped a new one if they buy these overly expensive consoles.

I am primarily a pc gamer but I do not mind laying down some hard earned cash for a console. What I have seen thus far is not really that impressive for the price. Except for wii. I'm drawn to the new ideas and the fact that it just looks plain ol' fun. Most companies will play out a format until its dead. Nintendo always seems to try something new and innovative (perhaps out of necessity).

Originally when the cube came out, I was put off by the fact that nintendo had gotten a reputation for being a little too family oriented...too many cute n' cuddly games so to speak. Also, their hardware was inferior, their mini disc media didn't hold as much data..etc..etc..etc. I've heard it all.

Surprisingly tho,while the ps2 and xbox were collecting dust I was thoroughly enjoying the GC including the DK bongo games(which made your game room a hit with the kids) and felt I would have gotten my moneys worth if I had paid full price. Games not available on the cube I played on my PC. Now the cube is a dust collector as well but at least it accomplished its task. I had more fun with the games on that little jerky console than I ever did with the others and I didn't have to feel guilty afterward.

It already seems that there are a lot of /.ers that wouldn't pay for it anyway but I just wanted you to remember, all consoles eventually collect dust. If you were smart you'd put your $600 into your ING this way, if your a die-hard SONY loyalist, you'll be able to afford their next console. (that is... if this console doesn't do them in).
I would be heart broken if the speculated price of wii was way off. I wouldn't buy it but I could just play it at a friend's house. After all I already have 3 dust collectors

I haven't read any posts that bash nintendo and this is not a call to arms to defend it. Just relating a story of my new found loyalty to a company I had forsaken for so long.

Messed up link

[_KiTA_]

I must have messed up the link, but, the 12.5 comment was supposed to link here:

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/busines s/financial_markets/14661930.htm

Sorry about that.

The Price Makes Me Happy

[Grayden]

Nintendo Wheeeeeeee!!!

Re:Slightly off topic

[Kjella]

Well, someone already mentioned the specifics of finding an optimal price point and non-linearity but skipped the basics. You as a consumer probably see price as a line:

0 --- 100$ --- 200$ ---300$ --- 400$ --- $500 --- $600 --->

Economists are looking at a graph - the price-quantity graph with points (p,q), and the price is just the y-value. They try to estimate this graph and while for every price there is one price point, many concepts don't make any sense otherwise. For example, there's great uncertainty about the $600 price point of the PS3, meaning what quantity it'll sell. There's no uncertainty about the $600 price - it means you need six 100$ bills.

Re:Shit.

[Vo0k]

...which is perfectly logical, but doesn't make it suck any less.

Re:Shit.

[Irish_Samurai]

You are correct sir, it definitely sucks.

Elasticities

[Robotron23]

Indeed, there are regional price elasticities in existence in every price point. One economic theorist referred to the phenomena as the "kinked demand" curve - the demand curve is bizarrely curved in these situations. Bear in mind the videogame market is oligopolistic - just a few dominant manufactuers; Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo. Thus, over time consumers have adapted to the pricing process. We expect prices to be reasonable and we're VERY concerned about even the smallest of margins - you can see right here in this topic: $249 or $199?! Luckily for Nintendo, the falling cost of electronics manufacture has exceeded the rate of inflation in Western nations and Japan itself, thus profit on the console unit will occur regardless.

Therefore, the Wii itself may be $200 still - hence a robust demand, and strong demand from cross elastic products such as er....games and the DVD enhancement, extra pads - even Gamecube controllers. The situation looks good for Nintendo eitherway - though on balance $199 seems the better option than $249, as it is certain Nintendo will be able to force down manufacture costs further. We can only hope the traditional sturdyness of their equipment remains.

The more "perfect competition" orientated PC game market however, did not express this elasticity phenomena quite so starkly until recently, with the rise of EA/Ubi Soft making the market oligopolistic - but thats a different argument altogether.

Re:Tickets

[KDR_11k]

You can order from an import store, the goods themselves will end up cheaper even with tax and duty but the shipping will undo any savings there. When I import a game through Lik-Sang that has free shipping it ends up at 55 Euros for a game that would cost 60 even with tax and duty. Often the parcell goes through customs without any fees and then it ends up even cheaper.

Re:Shit.

[kahrytan]

You are all wrong. It has to do with the value of the EURO compared to other currencies.

Re:Zonk again

[WillAffleckUW]

I see. So this thing [internet2.edu] is just a figment of my imagination? If you're going to criticize someone for being a dumbass, you'd better be careful not to be a dumbass yourself.

Ssshh. Don't tell them we have pipeline that makes theirs look like a putt-putt car next to our rocket ship ... they don't realize even South Korea has broadband 20 times faster than US cable modems throughout the entire country, or that universities use Gigapop switches just for internal same-room wiring.

If they found out about it, we'd have to let them buy wood on it, and right now we're busy using it to decode genomes, find protein structures, do medical surgery remotely, and find drug targets for malaria.

However, none of this will keep me from buying the Pokemon Pikachu Lightning Yellow Wii with Bulbasoar Blue-green Nintendo DS combo that will be bundled around Christmas ...

Re:Tickets

[KDR_11k]

Yes but that doesn't explain the difference. Also it only seems to matter for consoles because PC games and components usually end up being priced the same as in the US without price increase for any taxes. I think they only ask for that much because that's what the games costed in the days of cartridges and they can get away with it still.

USD Fluctuations

[rsmith-mac]

For that reason, I'm not shocked that they also only annouced a cap on the price, and not the actual price. The USD/Yen conversion ratio has been a bit unstable lately, and while I get the impression Nintendo really wants to launch at $200, it's probably going to boil down to how strong the dollar is when the Wii launches. If it's strong, $199, otherwise if it's weak, we get it at $249.

Re:Under $250 is unlikely

[kahrytan]

Only the hardcore gamers pay $400-$600 for a game console. Nintendo markets their games and systems to families. Most families are under a limited budget. It's not cheap to have a family. But I agree with you. I will probaly buy Wii over PS3/360 when it hits $150 mark.

Re:Under $250 is unlikely

[MarkVVV]

For Iwata's sake, the Gamecube optical drive is just a FRIGGIN DVD READER! The disc DOES NOT SPIN BACKWARDS, i have a gc without the case in front of me right now, i'm SEEING THE DISC SPINNING, so please, STOP THIS RUMOR.

Wiimote

[Jerek Dain]

The wiimote? Please tell me Warner Brothers is making a game where we can hunt wabbits with our wiimotes.

The Internets

[Physician]

Well it looks like the Wii will be able to get on Internet 2 as well since it can browse the "internets". That will certainly put Sony and MS in a vice grip.

Retraction Re: Spinning Direction

[eonlabs]

I have a retraction to make from my post regarding spin direction.
It's not unheard of, but apparently, I'm wrong on this one.

"The Nintendo GameCube uses a unique storage medium, the GameCube Optical Disc, a proprietary format based on Matsushita's optical-disc technology; the discs are approximately 8 centimeters (3 1/8 inches) in diameter (considerably smaller than the 12 cm CDs or DVDs used in competitors' consoles), and the discs have a capacity of approximately 1.5 gigabytes. Contrary to popular belief, GameCube discs are not physically read any differently from a standard DVD disc, but are encrypted and contain a 'barcode' unreadable by most DVD drives. This move was mainly intended to prevent piracy of GCN titles, but like most anti-piracy technology, it was eventually cracked. By exploiting a flaw in Phantasy Star Online Episode I & II, users were able to connect their GameCubes to their PCs and run homebrew programming on the console. [3]. Later, a special debug mode in the GameCube drive was discovered which allowed the console to read and play from standard mini DVD-Rs."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_GameCube

Wii've entered the Acceptance Phase???

[f0dder]

The cycles of grief upon hearing the Revolution being called the Wii.

denial, anger, depression
-when word first broke
-www.wii.com still points to Weyerhauser

bargaining
-E3 the name will be announced as a hoax

and acceptance.
-Congrats Nintendo -Anyone seen my Wiimote?

Re:Slightly off topic

[Red Flayer]

Becasue economists and pricing folks don't think about price as what's-on-the-sticker-at-the-store, but rather in relation to pricing models. There is a pricing curve, and the price that you set for sales is a point on that curve.

Re:Under $250 is unlikely

[tgibbs]

I think making two controllers standard is a very bad idea. People with one child or who purchase the unit to play by themselves would feel ripped off paying extra for a controller they won't use. Better to ship it with one controller at the lowest reasonable price, and let people buy another controller with the savings if they want. Or they could offer a premium "family pack" at a higher price with two controllers.

Screw free games, Gimme a second Wiimote

[Alzheimers]

I'd rather pay $199 for a multiplayer system out of the box and choose what games I want, than get some multiplayer games thrown in as an afterthought but have to pay another 20-30 bucks to be able to play with someone else.

I remember the first NES console I got came with two controllers, AND the lightgun, AND a Super Mario/Duck Hunt cartridge. And that wasn't a "bundle" either, that was in the retail box.

WiiMote and Opera

[cdneng2]

Doesn't anyone find it interesting that you can browse the internet with the WiiMote, AND OPERA supports "gestures"?

Because they don't really want to sell it to you!

[tgibbs]

When the X-box released before x-mas, they sold every single one. Heck, my little bro had his pre-paid at EB in November. We received it in February. If they're going to sell out, why don't they just make more before they start selling? MS doesn't make more money from people re-selling the unit on e-bay, but MS lost a lot of goodwill by failing to deliver a unit in reasonable time.

You are under the impression that Microsoft actually wanted to sell a lot of consoles. But in fact, those first consoles sold will probably over their entire lifetime never pay back their costs. Microsoft benefits from delaying purchases as long as possible, until the components are cheaper.

So the strategy that makes the most business sense is to sell as few units as possible at launch while maintaining the impression of a successful launch. It is far better to have people in line and going away disappointed than to have big stacks of boxes in stores waiting to be sold. Note that they can't limit sales by cranking the price way up, even if they are being snapped up for double on EBay, because this would be perceived as profiteering on a shortage that they created. Also, a high price would raise public doubts about the viability of the console, and whether Microsoft has priced themselves out of the broader gamer market, such as we are now hearing for the PS3.

I imagine that Sony will do the same thing with the PS3, for the same reasons. Nintendo now seems to be pursuing a different strategy--they probably will not be taking a loss on the Wii, even at first, so maybe we'll have a chance of seeing a decent supply at launch.

Opera Question

[mausmalone]

Are you an Opera user? If so, how are gestures handled (i.e. built-in or via plugin)? And how well do you think they'd work with a Wii controller?

Re:Opera Question

[hkmwbz]

Gestures are built in. Works right out of the box. You just press the right mouse button, move the mouse to perform a gesture, and release the mouse button again.

Re:$200

[mausmalone]

No, they said "no more than" $250 in the US, "no more than" 25,000 JPY in Japan. That's where we're getting $250 from. We're guessing on Euros and Pounds based upon reasonable calculations.

For example. 25,000 JPY is roughly 118 GBP. 118 GBP + 17% VAT = 138 GBP. Round up to a nicer figure and we're guessing it'll sell for "no more than" 140 GBP.

Re:Size Matters...

[mausmalone]

A dangerously inacurate thing to say with so many Brits hanging around. We in the US get it fairly nice when it comes to game console pricing.

Re:Under $250 is unlikely

[Overly Critical Guy]

That's silly, even a kid with no siblings has friends to play with, or parents. Someone buying the system just for themselves would still have a buddy to play against. And there might even be games that take advantage of two controllers used by both hands, like a virtual drummer.

Re:Under $250 is unlikely

[duerra]

Personally, I hope they take the pack-in route. Not only will it make their competitors look bad, but it might force them to cough up a pack-in themselves. Which given the costs associated with developing a game on their consoles, would further dig in their losses on each unit.

Nintendo has lots of options if they wanted to take a route like this. It has been speculated by many gaming editors that Wii: Sports as showcased at E3 would make a great candidate for an included title with the system, and would really accent the features of the Wii console.

Also, given the Virtual Console, they could also have options for including free downloads of past Nintendo games from the VC online service. There really wouldn't be any loss factor for Nintendo by allowing each console to freely download a couple of Nintendo's old first party games.

re: My thoughts too. Creativity trumps CPU power

[King_TJ]

Some of the most popular games are the simplest. Take the latest craze of Soduku, for example. It doesn't require much of a CPU at all to run it well. Neither did classics like Tetris, or any of the creative little games put out by companies like "Popcap", who offer theirs for PDAs and cellphones, as well as for Windows, the Mac, and as web-based applets.

In general, the most resource-intensive games out today are all 1st. person shooters, following in the footsteps of Doom and Quake. I can't deny I love playing a good FPS game ... but they're short on originality at this point. All the "cool weapons" you can think of seem like they've been done in one variation or another and they've got the game physics down to impressive levels of detail. The only way they seem to be able to "wow" people into buying the "next great FPS" is a promise of more life-like graphics, which requires ever more expensive graphics hardware, system RAM, and CPU power to pull off.

XBox 360 and PS3 are getting caught up in this vicious cycle of "increase the hardware so the remakes of the games can be improved another notch". Nintendo seems to be the only one saying "Wait a minute! We can build something that's updated to a sweet-spot of hardware for the dollar, and then build creative and attractive games to run in those parameters - and do just fine for ourselves!"

Sounds like a better business plan to me.

Re:Under $250 is unlikely

[Overly Critical Guy]

The NES originally came with no games. The Super Mario Bros./Duck Hunt bundle was a special bundle. It's probably the one most people remember buying, so they assume the NES always came with a game.

Re:Tickets

[duerra]

It is because of all the extra taxes, and the fact that Europe purchases good with the tax already included in the price. Also, it costs more to ship to Europe than it does to the US.

Big Surprise

[Blakey Rat]

Flash: Slashdot Games poster a fan of Nintendo! News at 11:00!

Something wrong with that price....

[_Griphin_]

$150 pounds should come out to about $400 Canadian.

Re:Internets?

[Conanymous Award]

"'Internets' is a slang term for the Internet that has been going around lately. I have no idea who started it or why."

The slang term "internets" was brought to you by president George W. Bush. For further information, see the 2004 presidental election debates. And don't forget Poland.

Just making numbers up

[Silent sound]

You are judging Nintendo's launch plans against a number you picked absolutely out of thin air. Let's look at some more realistic numbers.

The Sony PS3 will launch at roughly the same time as the Wii, and 6 million units is the exact same number of units Sony says they want to ship by next March.

The XBox 360 shipped about a year before the Wii will. By the beginning of this May, it had shipped about 3.3 million units.

The Nintendo DS, the effective successor to Nintendo's enormously successful Game Boy, took about 14 months to sell 6 million units.

So: Nintendo is planning, by March, to ship about twice as many units in this console generation as the Gamecube's closest competitor has in the same period; and about the same number of units as their most successful competitor, the one who sold five times as many units as the Gamecube, will in the same period. And they're expecting these units to sell roughly 3 times as fast as Nintendo's last video game system did.

Let's ignore, for a moment, the very real question of whether it's even possible for Nintendo to manufacture more than 6 million units by March. Let's furthermore ignore the opposite and equally real question-- whether Nintendo has the option, if it becomes clear they have not been sufficiently optimistic about the Wii, of increasing that number to more than 6 million units by March. (Nintendo did in fact do exactly this with the DS-- a month or two before launch it became clear they'd understimated demand, so they rushed to increase the number of production lines and met demand just barely.)

If you compare Nintendo's launch numbers to the actual video game market, instead of comparing them to "the population of Japan", 6 million in the first few months is an extremely optimistic number-- and if Nintendo manages to meet this number in sales, it will be a major coup.

No they didn't.

[iamghetto]

Headline: Nintendo Announces Japanese Wii Price
"Nintendo has revealed to Famitsu.com, at the company's recent press conference unveiling its financial results, that Wii would arrive in Japanese stores with a maximum price tag of 25,000 yen"

So they didn't annouce the price, they just told us what the max price would be. In all likelyhood, they'll announce a price under their "max price" to seem even more heroic to their fanbase... When in actuality its just clever pr posturing.

And inspite of Nintendo's cheaper price, they won't be losing money on the console due its lack of technology. So if they really wanted to be friends to the consumer, how about they take a loss on their console like everybody else :)

Re:Under $250 is unlikely

[Jarlsberg]

I've heard that the aussie version of the Gamecube spins backwards. You know, like their toilets...

;)

60 Hz PAL

[tepples]

From the point of view of the program, is there much of a difference between PAL at 60 Hz and NTSC? I know Brazil uses 60 Hz PAL, and so does one of the Metroid Prime games.

Re:60 Hz PAL

[drinkypoo]

I guess a number of gamecube games will only play in PAL at 60Hz, you can see which ones they are by doing some quick websearches - by far the majority of highly ranked hits on a search for "PAL 60Hz" applied to gamecube. Anyway NTSC and PAL-60 have the same number of lines so there's no difference from the point of view of the program. The only problem is that even if the hardware is there to generate the PAL color signal on an NTSC unit, the firmware won't permit it anyway. Hopefully we'll all go digital in a reasonable timeframe and all of this crap will go away regardless.

Re:Shit.

[jedrek]

What percentage of your salary would a new car be? (Something modest and reasonable) Oh, you can't afford it on this pay? Well, it must be too expensive then.

The average annual salary in Poland is about $8400, the average price of a new car is $19,500. It is too expensive, and it's why used car imports exceed new car sales by 300%.

Re:Under $250 is unlikely

[tgibbs]

That's silly, even a kid with no siblings has friends to play with, or parents. Someone buying the system just for themselves would still have a buddy to play against. And there might even be games that take advantage of two controllers used by both hands, like a virtual drummer.

I think that you are falling into the common error of assuming that everybody is like you. I know lots of people who play games mostly solo. If most game play was between two or more people, there wouldn't be so many one-player games on the market. And considering that the Wii controller in its "nunchaku" mode already occupies both hands, it is hard to imagine what kind of one-player game would use two of them.

Shipping from Sapan to Europe

[tepples]

Japan is almost on the other side of the world compared to the US, but is much closer to Europe/Great Britain.

Shipments from Japan to Redmond, Washington, have to cross the Pacific Ocean. Shipments from Japan to Europe have to either cross Russia, go around India and Africa, go around India and through the Red Sea (next to known terrorist state Sudan) and Suez Canal, or cross both the Pacific and the Atlantic.

Re:Shipping from Sapan to Europe

[Mini-Geek]

What does it matter whether it goes over an ocean or over countries? Unless one or more of the countries it would have to go through had very restrictive laws on what can fly over it, it doesnt matter at all.

Residuals

[tepples]

There really wouldn't be any loss factor for Nintendo by allowing each console to freely download a couple of Nintendo's old first party games.

Unless somebody's contract specifies that he or she gets residuals from the sale of each copy of a given title.

Navigating around land masses costs money

[tepples]

What does it matter whether it goes over an ocean or over countries?

Ocean freight is cheaper than air freight. Thus, shipping costs are a function not of distance as the crow flies but of distance around land masses. A freighter can go straight from Japan to Washington; it would have to go around big land masses to get to England.

Re:makes the gamecube a sweet deal

[ActionAL]

u must be new cuz ur small brain can make no associations.

Price affects perception...

[J-1000]

...and a cheaper price than expected may communicate the wrong message to potential buyers, that message being, "we are desperate and will try anything to stay competitive." Sometimes the lowest price is not the most desirable price for consumers, oddly enough. Sony is riding this wave right now and hoping it carries the PS3.

There is a flaw in the calculation

[MadJo]

25000 yen is not equal to 225 euros.
25000 yen is 175 euros.

Nintendo is not Sony :)

Please could someone correct this in the article?

Re:Tickets

[LordVader717]

We do get a two-year standard warranty on all goods aswell.

Re:Shit.

[Vo0k]

Somehow the Chineese manage to export $5 walkman-alikes and $2 fake christmas trees to Poland China and still make money on them. $60+ difference between US and Europe as transport cost is pure bullshit.

So you're saying a PS3 would cost £600?

[Hamton]

Not fact at all.

By that same reasoning, the $599 PlayStation 3 would cost £599. A nearly 100% markup. But the PS3 is said to cost £425 in the UK - a still expensive, but a lesser 33% markup.

By the same 33% markup, a $200 Wii would cost £145 (so round it up to £150). That markup includes VAT. Yes, the UK gets screwed still, but much less than before. IF the US Wii is $200 and the UK Wii £150, the £40 difference is a mostly VAT and a little bit extra to the retailers.

Re:So you're saying a PS3 would cost £600?

[jimicus]

But the PS3 is said to cost £425 in the UK - a still expensive, but a lesser 33% markup.

That UK price almost certainly includes VAT (our "Sales Tax") at 17.5%, and import duty (depends on the item, but IIRC it's around 11% for consumer electronics). However, US prices are generally given net of tax.

Suddenly, that 33% markup is about 5%.

Re:So you're saying a PS3 would cost £600?

[Hamton]

I did suggest the markup would include VAT - what with everything in the UK including VAT.

So yes, for a Wii, the actual markup is more in the region of 5-10%.

For the PS3 though, if that "actual" cost is £320 ($599), then the price including VAT is just under £380. That leaves about £45 of markup, which is about 15%.

I'm not sure how the DVD/Blu Ray movie playing affects the import tax on the PS3 though.

Re:Internets?

[ROBOKATZ]

An internet is simply any network of networks.

A network of networks is simply a bigger network.

Re:Under $250 is unlikely

[miro f]

I've heard that the aussie version of the Gamecube spins backwards. You know, like their toilets...

yup, they spin upside down here too.

but we don't have electricity so we have to power it from a kangaroo

Branching Off Topic a bit, Cartridge Price

[Chonine]

I do recall the big concern during the N64 days about why Nintendo would choose to stick with cartridges. It could very well be the biggest part of why the market's dominance went from them to Sony, with Squaresoft moving away from the medium.

The reason was primarily due to the high cost of cartridge (which Nintendo used probably for maintaining exclusive control on their own discs for piracy and distribution reasons).

How has this changed now, in 2006? Optical was cool once, but tons and tons of flash is selling, more than ever before. No doubt that optical is cheaper, but with flash manufacturers aiming to sell flash cards for a few bucks in order to get out of the mindset of being reusable and simply being "buy and fill and buy again", will we ever see consoles return to using little memory cards?

I am thinking longer term, 10 years. Wont we have something like 16GB $5 flash cards? I am assuming also that little rom cards could be of equal cost. This may not be quite like 45GB HD/blu discs, but it is well within a similar scope. I would be that at least one engineer on the Wii raised his hand to ask this question when they were considering the media to use -- he may have gotten shot down relatively quickly, but I feel a general distaste brewing nowadays towards optical media. For size and power and cost (for the drive) reasons.

Re:Internets?

[ClamIAm]

What are these internets you speak off?

I'm not really sure, but I heard there's rumors on them.

supply

[john_uy]

i believe the problem is not the price but the supply. they have initial plan of shiping around 6m units worldwide for the quarter. with that pricepoint, it will definitely be sold out. i am hoping they can get more units out as i also plan to get one.

That update is worrying.

[justchris]

6 millions units by March? I hope that's only for Japan. With system launches being the way that they are, a launch around Christmas, and a price point coming in at around half of their major competitors, 6 million units may not be enough worldwide.

Especially if Nintendo wants to bury Sony and Microsoft, they need to produce enough units early on to meet what is predicted (at least on slashdot) to be high demand. If I want a Wii at launch, looks like I'm going to be preordering it.

Re:Under $250 is unlikely

[Dis*abstraction]

All your comments assume the market demographic of gamers is static. The whole point is that Nintendo's trying to expand that demographic to people, like myself, who've never bought consoles before. It's totally within reason to speculate that (a) one reason we haven't bought consoles is that they're marketed towards hardcore gamers, (b) hardcore gamers play solo more often than the average person would, (c) those of us who haven't formerly been gamers aren't going to have tons of friends around with extra controllers, so it would make sense for Nintendo to include a second controller with the console, and (d) Nintendo's done its research and has figured all the above out for itself.

I am from the UK, you insensitive clod

[tod_miller]

Don't talk to me about large tax prices.

We don't need a war to raise our Petrol prices, just some overly green policy :p

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Re:Tickets

[tehcyder]

Well I would use Capital Letters for words like Christianity or Islam, but also for Marxism or Republican. This is probably more common in the UK than the US.

As for the actual system we have now, I don't know what else you would call it but C/capitalism.

It's certainly not a real Free Market system, thank God.

My Forecasts - Mine are as good as anyone else's

[Pablo El Vagabundo]

Here are some of my predictions, some of the figures might be off I havent bothered looking too much:

- Wii will sell out at launch in every region. Two to three million units worldwide.*

- Nin will up production for christmas 06 and sell another three to four million units world wide.*

- After Christmas 07 they will have 17 million units sold and number one market share.

- Developers are not ready for the rush and there is a dry spell of titles come summer 06.

- Tons of great titles for Christmas 07..Wiiiiiiiiiieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

* If they launch worldwide in Oct-Nov

They has better launch in Europe before Christmas.....

Pablo

Re:My Forecasts - Mine are as good as anyone else'

[Pablo El Vagabundo]

Opps, add one to every year, so Christmas 07 becomes Christmas 08

Actually it's the only one I do have

[ianscot]

just because your friends dont have them (and hey, it IS five years old) doesn't mean there aren't stacks of people out there who still have them, and still buy them.

Actually I'm aware of that 360-GameCube comparison in Japan. I think of it as just another example of these companies persisting in their approaches -- MS's utter failure to crack the Japanese market is pretty telling this time around, as they seriously tried to address their failure with the original XBox.

(And yeah, the GC is the only one I own, and the Wii's the only one I'm even remotely considering this time around. Nintendo is the only one of these three companies that's even motivated by providing excellent games. It seems to be their primary motive, even. Which is amazing.)

Re:Under $250 is unlikely

[tgibbs]

I think that Nintendo's best chance of expanding their market is to keep the price as low as possible, not add an additional controller that some people might not need. If Nintendo wanted to "sweeten the pot" rather than lower the price, I think that an included game would attract more people than an additional controller.