SanDisk Baits Apple And Woos Rockbox

An anonymous reader writes "CNET reports that SanDisk is courting open source developers to port Rockbox to its popular MP3 players. SanDisk is currently the world's second most popular MP3 player manufacturer after Apple. Rockbox is an open source OS for most major MP3 players. The article also talks about SanDisk's subversive new anti-iPod advertising campaign which calls iPod owners 'iChimps' and uses a 'street graffiti style' to create the illusion of a 'counter-culture uprising against the iPod'. The writer says, 'SanDisk is the first company to market its player as an ideological rather than technological alternative to the iPod. To do so is to fight Apple on their own terms.'"

Comments

Clever Campaign.

[Whiney Mac Fanboy]

Apple got it's dominant position largely through a clever (and cool, and the early) advertising campaign. They're firmly fixed as the 'cool' mp3 player to get.

Everyone else who's tried to take on Apple has (as the article notes) has tried to differentiate themselves through technological features (doesn't work 'cause most people don't understand) or price (doesn't work 'cause people don't want a "cheap and nasty" music player). Differentiating by making iPod users seem like sheep is a pretty effective idea.... perhaps! (I am sure the inevitable replies will correct me).

The rockbox news is far more interesting - vendor supported rockbox would be a cool thing to have (wish Rockbox worked on my 3g iPod - soon I will have ogg goodness). But (according to the article), its just a rumour, not a confirmed fact) - the submitter should perhaps have linked to another article?

(Oh, and this was my favorite poster - allthough I think the "shackled" image is more appropriate for an iTunes Music Store mp4 than an ipod itself)

Re:Clever Campaign.

[Distinguished Hero]

Differentiating by making iPod users seem like sheep [idont.com] is a pretty effective idea.... perhaps!
The funny thing is that anyone who changes their mind based on this stupid marketing campaign really is a sheep.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[ePhil_One]

Apple got it's dominant position largely through a clever (and cool, and the early) advertising campaign.

Apple got its dominate position by creating a effective and user freindly UI to a useful and stylish bit of hardware. If the underlying UI & Hardware weren't up to the task, the ipod would have fallen flat when the first generation of users didn't like them. I owned a pre-ipod player, it had a painful UI, so despite its slick hardware, I hardly ever used it and bad mouthed it to freinds.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[BMonger]

The funny thing is that anyone who changes their mind based on this stupid marketing campaign really is a sheep.

Yeah... making your potential users feel like one of the flock is a bad thing... :)

Re:Clever Campaign.

[Anonymous Coward]

The idea that the iPod is only successful because of its marketing is ridiculous. The iPod was a success well before Apple started the silhouette ad campaign. Sure, a lot of people chose iPods now because that's what everyone else has, but is it that hard to accept the iPod's initial success was the result it being the superior product? And other players haven't been able to catch up to the iPod, because Apple keeps improving it?

Re:Clever Campaign.

[fm6]

Take a look at other marketing campaigns. Most of them are built on exactly this kind of doublethink.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[oni]

Apple got its dominate position by creating a effective and user freindly UI to a useful and stylish bit of hardware.

bingo.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[DJCacophony]

Ha ha, yeah, right. I suppose you're going to claim if the ipod was the size, shape, color, and texture of a cinderblock, and apple didn't advertise it at all, it would still be where it is now.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[kfg]

. . .anyone who changes their mind based on this stupid marketing campaign really is a sheep.

Nah. They're signing you up to be a goat.

KFG

Re:Clever Campaign.

[Whiney Mac Fanboy]

*heh* - and look how that ad managed to unseat IBM & establish Apple as the dominant player in the PC space from the mid 80s on ;-)

Guess it goes to show that a clever campaign by itself isn't going to be enough - lets hope they do support rockbox. Tt could become the firefox of firmware!

Re:Clever Campaign.

[KarateExplosions]

If it was the size, shape, color, and texture of a cinder block, it wouldn't exactly be "useful and stylish", would it?

Re:Clever Campaign.

[OmegaBlac]

Apple got its dominate position by creating a effective and user freindly UI to a useful and stylish bit of hardware.

I think we are at a point where it seems like everyone has an iPod and nobody wants to feel left out so they buy one to be apart of the crowd. Two of my friends recently purchased iPods specifically because they saw others on campus using them--nothing to do with UI and how stylish the hardware is. IMO, most people buying iPods these days are buying it to feel a belonging to a "movement"/culture or because it is some kind of new fad going on. Sheep indeed...

Re:Clever Campaign.

[dhasenan]

"Sheep are stupid and have to be driven. Goats are smart and have to be led."
Terry Pratchett, Small Gods

Re:Clever Campaign.

[Whiney Mac Fanboy]

The funny thing is that anyone who changes their mind based on this stupid marketing campaign really is a sheep.

You know, now I think about it, perhaps such a negative (and as others have pointed out, blatantly astroturfing & subculture mining) campaign won't work so well.

I do partially agree with you - I think anyone who changes their mind and buys a sandisk based on this stupid marketing campaign really is a sheep, but I think someone who sees this campaign and just thinks about it a little more next time they buy a mp3 player is not....

Re:Clever Campaign.

[Robotech_Master]

I don't know. If I'm an iPod user (and I am, but I'm speaking hypothetically here), I'm not sure that I'm going to want to switch to a competitor because they insulted me for using an iPod.

And SanDisk is insulting every single member of the market that it is trying to gain. Historically, that sort of approach doesn't tend to work very well.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[XaXXon]

anyone who changes their mind based on this stupid marketing campaign really is a sheep.

While this may be true, it's important to note that this particular changing of ones mind does not cause one to become a sheep, only reinforces that they are.

They may have purchased the iPod because they were a "sheep" already or may have become a "sheep" at this point, as well.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[timster]

Apple got it's dominant position largely through a clever (and cool, and the early) advertising campaign.

Apple got its position by having the foresight to think of their product as a "premium" device. They put in lots of storage capacity, made the thing as small as possible, made more than half the case out of metal, and designed an interface very carefully. When that was done that had a player that was much more expensive than the competing players but much more useful, and the market responded.

Consider that the supposed "iPod killers" today still often have plastic-only cases, are often twice the volume, and usually have a confusing interface (see the Zen Vision:M).

tried to differentiate themselves through technological features (doesn't work 'cause most people don't understand)

Nonsense; people know quite well what an FM tuner and a stopwatch and a voice recorder are. They just don't care, or not in large numbers (and various add-ons exist for the iPod anyway). I told my dad that other players included a built-in radio, and he told me that the reason he wanted an iPod was that radio now sucks.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[DJCacophony]

So you're saying that style is what brought the iPod to its current position, rather than functionality?

Re:Clever Campaign.

[KarateExplosions]

No, I've never been particularly taken in by the iPod, and I have never bought one. I have an MP3 player, I love the hell out of it, but it's not an Apple product.

However, the original poster had said, "Apple got its dominate [sic] position by creating a effective and user freindly [sic] UI to a useful and stylish bit of hardware."

Then you said, "Ha ha, yeah, right. I suppose you're going to claim if the ipod was the size, shape, color, and texture of a cinderblock[...]it would still be where it is now."

But clearly that was NOT what was being claimed, and in fact the original poster specifically stated that part (not necessarily all) of Apple's success with the iPod was due to its being useful and stylish.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[jacksonj04]

That would be the "useful" bit.

iPod is useful (It plays music well with a useful interface) and stylish (It looks good). Combined with a good advertising campaign, it becomes a market leader.

Most players which aren't either iPods, or from the WMP DRM camp are functional (They play music with some kind of interface) and possibly stylish (They're not the size of a housebrick).

Hence iPods or devices which use the WMP DRM system are at the top.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[Ptur]

The contact between SanDisk and Rockbox is real, not a rumour.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[Golias]

No way to sort by genre, artist, or album.

Um... Yeah. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you've never actually seen an iPod in person. They've always been able to browse by all three of those criteria.

The rest of your complaints are about as valid.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[gmhowell]

You can only play by playlist. No way to sort by genre, artist, or album. Fortunately, there's a solution to that: create a "smart playlist" for each missing sort mode you want. Yep. That's "easy to use".

I assume you're familiar with the term 'bullshit'? Or flamebait? Or troll?

4G, 60GB color iPod. Click on Music. Then click on 'artists' or 'genres' or about seven or eight other things.

Plus it doesn't support popular media formats. Want to play music from non-Apple online stores? Tough. No FLAC, no Ogg, no WMV, nothing but Apple or MP3.

I'm more disappointed in the S-Mart players that don't play the popular format used by the world's largest online music retailer.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[JonasH]

If you need further confirmation (petur is a Rockbox developer), see this thread in the Rockbox forums.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[NMerriam]

If it was the size and shape of a cinderblock, it would be called the Archos Jukebox.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[voidphoenix]

Which part of effective and user freindly UI to a useful and stylish bit of hardware didn't you understand?

Re:Clever Campaign.

[kfg]

Terry has a peculiar definition of intelligence. Sheep have to be coerced into being herded. Goats will sign up voluntarily.

Cats cannot be herded at all, although, if in the mood, they can be bribed.

KFG

Re:Clever Campaign.

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. I know quite a few people in my office that have them or got them as gifts from clients or relatives and no nothing about them or Apple in general. Saying a majority of people bought them for the slick interface and usability does not make sense because they did not use one before hand and did not have a different model previous to that to compare it too. I'd bet well over 75-95% of current iPod owners never had a portable music player before other then a discman. Kind of like a womans love for diamonds or a G unit with an expensive pair of Nike shoes, it has nothing to do with the actual chemical properties of the diamond or shoes and what functionality they provide you compared to other similar products, it is the feeling of having something that cost a lot of money (artifically) and the looks and discussion it gets from others that IS the deciding factor to get them. Nothing more, nothing less. STATUS!

Re:Clever Campaign.

[gstoddart]

Everyone else who's tried to take on Apple ... has tried to differentiate themselves through technological features ... or price. Differentiating by making iPod users seem like sheep [idont.com] is a pretty effective idea.... perhaps! (I am sure the inevitable replies will correct me).

Well, people keep saying things like that, but I don't buy the argument.

Quite frankly, I have a 1GB iPod shuffle, and for my needs there is no technology missing from it. I use is, literally, 4-7 hours a day, 5 days/week. I have always found the iTunes software a joy to use, and the product pretty much just goes, and I've never had to give it a second thought really.

I have know people who bought other MP3 players, and either couldn't figure out the technology, didn't like the software it came with (if at all), or felt the product was crappy. Many ultimately took them back and happliy paid the extra money to get the better user experience.

These people range from exceedingly tech-savvy people, to people who don't want to fiddle with technology.

The iPod is like the Honda of MP3 players -- at the base model, it's pretty basic and pedestrian. Move up a couple of models, and you'll get more features and increased leg room. However, all of the models of Honda will be reliable and trouble mostly free.

Every time someone tries to accuse iPod owners of being sheep it is either a technology bigot who figures the whole world needs his pet feature (like ogg-bloody-vorbis), or has a different set of needs, or just wants to look macho because he ripped his CDs with a flashlight, a jewlers loop, and an optical cable -- or is trying to sell you their product,.

On behalf of a happy iPod owner, I like it because it works and never gives me any sass. Not because everyone else in the world has one.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[jrockway]

> 4G, 60GB color iPod. Click on Music. Then click on 'artists' or 'genres' or about seven or eight other things.

So what if I have a big playlist ("My Top Rated 3+"), and I sort that by song name on my computer. Then on my iPod, I want that playlist to play by shuffling albums? Can't do it.

The iPod also ignores iTunes' "shuffle by grouping", so if I have a classical song that's split into three sections, they won't be in order if I'm shuffling the other tracks.

All in all, plenty of room for improvement over Apple. Slashdot is excessively pro-Apple these days -- you (we?) should look at iPod competitors as potential ways to make portable music more enjoyable than it already is. Instead, it seems people look at it like, "OMG there's no way anything could be better. iWant to be cool!". In that case, Sandisk's iSheep epithet is exactly right!

(RANT: Speaking of which, this Sandisk thing doesn't look that cool. The screen, for one thing, looks useless. Unfortunately, I can't view their site, since iDon't have Flash. How hard is making an XHTML page with some PNG pictures? I want to want to buy their product, but they're not letting me! Great way to build up a market...)

Re:Clever Campaign.

[esper]

Sorry, but he's dead on about the clickwheel. It flat-out sucks.

"Hey, guys, let's make something that looks just like a directional pad, but, instead of moving down a list when you press down, have it do something completely different!"

"Yeah, and then - get this - we can have people move through lists by using a circular motion around the pad, and make the rate that it moves through the list variable, so that it's absolutely impossible to keep track of how far you've moved unless you're looking at the screen as you do it."

"Sweet... and I know how to make it better yet. Once it starts moving, crank the sensitivity up so high that people wil end up jumping the cursor back and forth over the item they want half a dozen times before they can actually get it to stop in the right place."

"Good, but that might actually be useful when using it to fast forward or rewind within a song. In that mode, it should stay as slow as possible so that users are stuck there, going around and around the wheel dozens of times if they want to jump ahead by more than a minute."

"Oh, yes! That is an absolutely perfect idea! The only thing that's missing is to just say 'move your finger around the pad' in the manual with no indication of what that actually means."

Yeah, that's a terrific interface alright...

Re:Clever Campaign.

[LordPhantom]

So, um, that would be just about every apple user who thinks they're "cool" based upon apple's adverts?

Nah, don't bother replying.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[esper]

a G unit with an expensive pair of Nike shoes

Damn... They're making Nikes in GUNDAM sizes now?

Re:Clever Campaign.

[Skynyrd]

Apple got its dominate position by creating a effective and user freindly UI to a useful and stylish bit of hardware.

It's funny that so many people say that the iPod is only popular due to advertising. I've looked at a MP3 players, and for what I need, the iPod is far superior - and I don't pay attention to advertising (I Tivo my TV, don't listen to radio, run a pop up blocker on my browser...) and when I see ads, I think about the product rather than the messgae.

I want a good UI.
I don't want a voice recorder, FM, calendar, camera...
I won't rent or subscribe to a music library.
I don't buy any DRM'd music.

So, I if I buy an iPod I'm a sheep?

Re:Clever Campaign.

[gmhowell]

So what if I have a big playlist ("My Top Rated 3+"), and I sort that by song name on my computer. Then on my iPod, I want that playlist to play by shuffling albums? Can't do it.


The grandparent was unclear. I think I see what you are saying, and that is actually one of my peeves about the iPod. You want to change the sorting on the fly, I think?

Slashdot is excessively pro-Apple these days -- you (we?) should look at iPod competitors as potential ways to make portable music more enjoyable than it already is.

If the iPod didn't do about 99% of what I want it to do, I'd be more than happy to look at competitors. But it does everything. In addition, the accessories market will keep me attached to the iPod for quite a while. And I'm not talking about cases and crap like that. I mean external speakers/boomboxes and car interfaces. The latter are MUST have items for me. Oh, and Macintosh support. Sure, it's just drag and drop, but that's actually quite a hassle compared to 'plug it in and forget about it'.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[NMerriam]

So what if I have a big playlist ("My Top Rated 3+"), and I sort that by song name on my computer. Then on my iPod, I want that playlist to play by shuffling albums? Can't do it.

Set shuffle by album on the ipod. Select "My Top Rated 3+" under playlists and press play. Congratulations, you're shuffling your playlist by album on the iPod.

If you're talking about wanting to shuffle by album, but also play within those albums in alphabetical order by song title rather than album order, well sorry, you're SOL along with the other .00000001% of people who would consider such a feature important.

This is a portable music player with a 3" screen and limited controls, not a supercomputer -- for 90% of the people buying an MP3 player, ease of use is far more important than Random Esoteric Feature #2,736.

We should, as you say "look at iPod competitors as potential ways to make portable music more enjoyable than it already is". The problem is not that Slashdot is pro-apple, its that everyone who ever bitches about the iPod has clearly no sense of reality about what are features the mass market cares about, or how important the UI and simplicity are to the iPod's success.

Things like gapless playback and more format support (I'd love FLAC/APE/OGG) should be easy to add without changing the UI much, if at all. And we should continue to harp on apple until those arrive (probably needing hardware upgrades in the case of format support).

Better support for classical music is something that iTunes has been just lately getting upgraded for, so it will be another revision (or two) before the iPod inherits those features. It was a shame it took so long to get real attention. Unfortunately it seems a lot easier to add fields and options to iTunes than it is to get those new fields and options recognized on the iPod itself. It should be supported, but saying it would be nice to have is a far cry from most of the slashodt posts bitching about how "it doesn't sort by 14 things at once, therefore it suxxors and you are sheep for even looking at an iPod!!"

Re:Clever Campaign.

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple got it's dominant position largely through a clever (and cool, and the early) advertising campaign.
That's only half of the key to their sucess. They were also the earliest and easiest adopters of DRM. Without DRM the other players couldn't get the blessing of the music industry and could not provide their users with a good supply of music. DRM sucks, but, it's the only way to give users a really easy 100% truly legal way to get basically anything they want (within reason -- I still can't find any JPOP listed on services like emusic for example.) At the time, Windows Media Player was VERY bad at MTP. Heck, even today very few people can stand it and use it only when they absolutely have to. Apple promised simplicity, a good looking minimalistic design (eg it doesn't look geeky which would appeal only to a smaller audience,) and a good base of music to support their player.

Lack of ease of access to a large database of 100% legal music is still holding other players back somewhat. Still, it's my hope that players like this will give apple a good run for their money and maybe truly popularize the non-apple players at long last. If they grew popular enough, other services would grow big enough to truly compete. Right now the next best thing is emusic.com and I think I remember them being something like 7% of the market that itunes was 40% of. I may not remember that correctly, but, I remember it was looking very good for apple.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[Anonymous Coward]

> The funny thing is that anyone who changes their mind based on this stupid marketing campaign really is a sheep.

Well, in a more limited way--if an advertisement tells me about a new product I had never heard of that sounds good, and later research on my part shows me that it would be a good purchase, the advertisement has in a small way helped change my mind by giving me new information.

That said, anyone who believes advertising is probably a chump. Hell, they're even trying to trick us these days to get around our mental ad filters with some of the ways they advertise. Given that the purpose of advertising is to manipulate me, I do my best to make sure that it doesn't.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[HardCase]

Yeah, that's a terrific interface alright...

Works great for me!

Re:Clever Campaign.

[fatlaces]

Comparing possible customers to sheep is like the Microshaft Office ads, that portray customers/users as dinosaurs. the iDon't website is preaching a reactionary, Rated PG - safe revolution against iPods. It's really light on genuine reasons. At least the 1984 ad promised something. I'm not a sheep though I enjoy goatse....

Re:Clever Campaign.

[JulesLt]

I will be more impressed when the headline is 'SanDisk to pay open-source developers to port Rockbox to it's players'.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[mobby_6kl]

Ah, 100% Flamebait... I see someone disagrees with my post

Re:Clever Campaign.

[mr100percent]

I thought insulting the people you market to was a No-No.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[2nd Post!]

Yes, but look how effective Apple's adverts have been at growing Mac marketshare.

I doubt SanDisk will fare much better.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[jlaxson]

The RDF here is as strong as the one that allowed W get reelected.

Steve Jobs for President!

Re:Clever Campaign.

[Overly Critical Guy]

"Two of my friends recently purchased iPods specifically because they saw others on campus using them--nothing to do with UI and how stylish the hardware is. IMO, most people buying iPods these days are buying it to feel a belonging to a "movement"/culture or because it is some kind of new fad going on."

I don't think anybody has any proof of this. People buy iPods because they LIKE them. If they saw others using them on campus and decided to pick one up, then obviously they DID see how easy the UI was and how stylish the hardware is, because as you just wrote, they saw someone else using it.

You know, just because you're all technical geeks posting on Slashdot doesn't mean everyone else is a "sheep" or following a "movement" when they adopt something that is popular. The iPod really is a great product.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[Overly Critical Guy]

Despite your "funny" criticisms, the clickwheel remains the best interface out there to scroll through a hundred-album list on a music player. I've never had any of the problems you describe, and I doubt the majority of users have either considering the iPod's huge popularity.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple got its dominate position by creating a effective and user freindly UI to a useful and stylish bit of hardware.

Don't you (and the moderators) know the meaning of the word "largely?" The GP said: "Apple got it's dominant position largely through a clever (and cool, and the early) advertising campaign."

Your claim (that the iPod is a good product) is largely undisputed and redundant.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[MooUK]

"Things like gapless playback and more format support (I'd love FLAC/APE/OGG) should be easy to add without changing the UI much, if at all. And we should continue to harp on apple until those arrive (probably needing hardware upgrades in the case of format support)."

If the rockbox firmware, running on much older and slower players in some cases, can manage gapless playback and ogg support, along with support for FLAC and Monkey's Audio (with a few flaws at present, mostly with the highest compression rates), then there's not really a hardware problem. Current iPods are roughly as powerful as any of the top-end players - almost exactly the same hardware in some cases - so should be capable of the same features.

I have NO wish whatsoever to see Apple getting more of a monopoly. Competition is almost entirely without exception good for the customer - for you and me. We don't want iPods to stop being sold, or Microsoft to be utterly destroyed, or any competition in any market to disappear entirely.

Many people do prefer the iPod interface - and as normal, they've done their best to patent that interface to stop people trying to improve on it. Apple may not overtly and hugely abuse the monopolistic power they have - and remember that there can be monopoly power whilst still having competitors in the market - but I would say that they do abuse it to a small extent.

Personally I don't see what all the fuss is about the interface; I've used one for a short time and to be frank I preferred the interface of my current player from a few minutes after I got it.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[bprime]

Also funny is the file format of the parody of Apple's 1984 commercial by the Royal We, linked off the iDont Propoganda page. (For the slow: it's a quicktime movie).

Re:Clever Campaign.

[jaseuk]

The other critical and often forgotten bit is that the iPod used a hard disk rather than flash. Other players had maximum of 1GB of storage (typically 256MB or less) and really crappy slow transfer rates. I'd seen this crummy flash ones, the effort and time spent swapping around music on the go wasn't worth the effort. With a 20GB iPod people could carry around their entire CD collection.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[Unequivocal]

Hey! Easy now. Archos Jukebox was the birthplace of Rockbox, and therefore deserves respect like the 386 upon which Linus wrought his Linuxness..

Re:Clever Campaign.

[esper]

I take it you don't attempt to change playlists while driving or jump ahead 20 minutes in news podcasts to get to the next segment, then...

Re:Clever Campaign.

[phatmatt]

It wasn't just the UI and hardware either. Buying music on the itunes music store is so simple that everyone can use it. Also if you have one computer, syncing your iPod needs no user intervention. (syncing 2 computers sucks tho)

Re:Clever Campaign.

[Golias]

Sorry, but he's dead on about the clickwheel. It flat-out sucks.

Weird. I consider the wheel to be one of the very best things about the iPod's hardware. I've never seen a better solution on any MP3 player ever.

Lack of gapless playback is a valid criticism.
Lack of Ogg is a criticism that reveals you to be a pretentious ass, but at least it truthful.

Complaints about the click-wheel being hard to operate!? That's the stupidest damn thing I've heard all week, and I've been listening to talk radio today!

Re:Clever Campaign.

[rk]

"Steve Jobs for President!"

The heck with that. I vote Steve Jobs for Borg Queen...er King...er... well, you get the point.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[menace3society]

Things like this don't tend to work out so well, particularly when something is already established as being cool. Think of all the attempts people have made to make things like smoking, drinking and drug use seem uncool--and apart from a few straight-edge kids here and there, how well has that actually worked? Comparing your potential customers to chimps isn't going to make them feel particularly good about your product. Rather, you need to out-cool your competitor, usually by getting people who are already established as cool (celebrities) to hawk your wares in public (red-carpet events, award ceremonies, interviews). Otherwise Paris Hilton and Jay-Z will just say, "Boy, those iChimp ads are totally gay." Which, in point of fact, they are.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[mrchaotica]

Quite frankly, I have a 1GB iPod shuffle... I have always found the iTunes software a joy to use

Same here. In fact, that's what I think a lot of the detractors disregard about the iPod -- the software is what makes the product! I mean, the most important feature of the Shuffle is the fact that it automatically syncs with iTunes and that iTunes makes it extremely easy to define exactly what music you want on it (through smart playlists etc.).

Re:Clever Campaign.

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a friend who has, in the past, claimed to be a rebel. He's in management at an insurance company. He owns a Harley Davidson (former "rebel" icon, now a "corporate guy" icon). He sports a Blackberry. He loves his iPod Nano. He listens to podcasts about "technology" and "Macintosh computers".

He's not a rebel. He's walking conformity. Not strictly because of the iPod, but it's so... predictable that he would have one. He nagged and bitched when, just for the hell of it, I put iPodLinux on my nano. I think I'll try putting this RockBox thing on my iPod.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[scottgfx]

"...Well, Whatever."

I'm an iPod owner and user and the "Royal We" parody made me laugh out loud. It's campy, unlike the iSheep campaign which is just patronizing.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[tepzepi]

Why are you calling him a cigarette? I don't understand, does he smell like tobacco smoke?

Re:Clever Campaign.

[lidocaineus]

Good podcasts have chapter marks. Failing that, scrubbing works better than anything else I've seen. What exactly have you used that's better than either of those options?

Re:Clever Campaign.

[kabz]

That is *exactly* why I own two Shuffles, and my mini goes unloved and unused sitting on the shelf. I'd much rather have a mouse wheel style click wheel on the side, rather than the horrible touch sensitive pad.

I like my music listening to be spontaneous, and not interrupted by having to look at a tiny screen.

If I'm somewhere social, then I'll boot up iTunes on my PowerBook and hook up to an amp to talk music with people.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[jrockway]

> If the iPod didn't do about 99% of what I want it to do

Why are you willing to live without that 1%? Why is 99% the end-all-and-be-all?

> And I'm not talking about cases and crap like that. I mean external speakers/boomboxes and car interfaces.

Ever hear of a '1/8" plug'? They're very useful for connecting portable audio device to one another. Annoyingly, they're completely standardized, so you can use any speaker with any mp3 player. Damn those evil standards cutting into market share!

(I like how it's bad when M$ does this with IE, but good when Apple does it with the iPod and iTMS. Slashdot has really hit rock bottom.)

Re:Clever Campaign.

[gmhowell]

Why are you willing to live without that 1%? Why is 99% the end-all-and-be-all?

Because '1%' is probably an exaggeration of an order of magnitude.

Ever hear of a '1/8" plug'? They're very useful for connecting portable audio device to one another. Annoyingly, they're completely standardized, so you can use any speaker with any mp3 player. Damn those evil standards cutting into market share!

Interfaces go beyond merely piping audio from one device to another. AFAIK, the icelink is not available for any other product than the iPod, and is currently the only thing that integrates with the stereo on my vehicles. Maybe you'd like to take your eyes off the road to fiddle with an mp3 player, but I'd prefer to keep them up, with hands on the wheel.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[jrockway]

> Maybe you'd like to take your eyes off the road to fiddle with an mp3 player

I don't have a driver's license, so I don't really care one way or another.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[gmhowell]

I don't have a driver's license, so I don't really care one way or another.

Therefore, features/accessories like that are of no interest to you. So don't get an iPod. They are to me, so I do have an iPod.

Re:Clever Campaign.

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't you (and the moderators) know the meaning of the word "largely?"

Largely would imply more than 50% of the reason was due to the "clever ad campaign". I disputed this claim by countering that it is a "effective and user freindly UI to a useful and stylish bit of hardware" that actually motivated folks to buy iPods. I suspect it makes the GP feel morally superior to believe that Marketing was the predominate reason folks bought the iPod and continue to buy the iPod, and that his reasons for not buying an iPod are the only valid reasons anyone could have. I suspect the GP is actually a counter culture sheep who aggressively displays his non-sheepiness by rejecting the popular like a sheep. "Man, everybody is picking up those $100 bills like sheep. I won't do that, because I'm not a sheep. I'm broke, but I'm morally superior while I listen to my Ogg Vorbis on crappy headphones on this tacky looking brick that so much better than an iPod"

Al Gore

[Anonymous Coward]

I hear Al Gore puts all his music in a Rockbox

Re:Al Gore

[jhsiao]

I presume he has the "I'm So Ronery" song from the Team America: World Police soundtrack in his playlist.

Re:Al Gore

[Anonymous Coward]

Cerealy?

Re:Al Gore

[Anonymous Coward]

Tipper would never approve.

Re:Al Gore

[Anonymous Coward]

I heard Al Gore invented Rockbox too.

Re:Al Gore

[donutello]

Actually, that's his Japanese cousin Ar Gole.

</duck>

Re:Al Gore

[Overly Critical Guy]

Somewhere in Cupertino, Steve Jobs read the the memo on this, laughed, farted, then went to have lunch with Yo-Yo Ma.

Good luck, SanDisk.

Re:Al Gore

[Quantum Fizz]

No way Jose. Al Gore is a Mac guy through and through.

I just saw An Inconvenient Truth (a movie I recommend any self-respecting geek to see, whether you believe in global warming or not). In the film Gore lays out an amazing Keynote presentation on global warming.

Re:Al Gore

[jalefkowit]

No, you're thinking of Kim Jong-il. He likes to listen to his rockbox when he's ronery.

Re:Al Gore

[Cappy Red]

I thought that was a Batman villain. You know, La's Ar Ghur?

Re:Al Gore

[Lemming Mark]

And they call those tunes the Al-Gore-Rythms?

http://www.badpuns.com/jokes.php?section=shaggy&na me=al_gore

I can see this going over REAL well.

[falcon5768]

Thats a way to compete with the competition, call all its buyers sheep. Worked real well last presidential election I heard

Re:I can see this going over REAL well.

[fireboy1919]

It's more a way of going about the other thing.

Rather than saying, "ours is cheaper, works as well, and is also capable of playing everything that an iPod can play" they're saying
"Why are you buying that? Because somebody told you it's cool. Ours is the same, but CHEAPER and equally technically capable! Only a mindless follower would buy an iPod with reasons like that to buy a Samsung instead!"

Seems like a pretty good idea to me. It's working for Vonage, which is ironic considering that they're one of the worst VOIP sellers out there (they're swaying sheeple who don't do their homework before choosing a VOIP service).

Re:I can see this going over REAL well.

[Whiney Mac Fanboy]

Please see my sig.

Re:I can see this going over REAL well.

[jthill]

Yeh. And Apple's sales sure took off when they tried it too.

This'll probably go over like a lead zeppelin.

Re:I can see this going over REAL well.

[NDPTAL85]

I think the point is the election shouldn't have been that close to begin with. Kerry should have won by MILLIONS.

Re:I can see this going over REAL well.

[tinrobot]

They can only steal it if it's close.

Thanks to the swift boat crap, it was...

Re:I can see this going over REAL well.

[soupdevil]

They can only steal it if it's close.

Or, they can tell you it's close, ven if it's not, and then steal it.

Re:I can see this going over REAL well.

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is that Kerry is a douchebag and not only that, he is Theresa's lap dog, a poodle. A poodle with a grooming schedule. He has no backbone nor did he have a stand on any issue.
He is a whipped pansy boy and most of America would rather have a Deliverance boy with a gun who is not afraid to use it be the president than some whipped fairy that likes to play tea party and would willingly give military control over to an organization that already hates America.

"I'd like to see our troops dispersed through the world only at the directive of the United Nations."
"I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it."
"President Clinton was often known as the first black president. I wouldn't be upset if I could earn the right to be the second."

Re:I can see this going over REAL well.

[alienw]

Actually, Vonage is one of the best VoIP providers out there. Of course, that says more about other VoIP providers than about Vonage -- the bar is not set high. In any case, the cheapo plastic SanDisk crap is not going to influence iPod sales in any meaningful way. Apple wins because it's player has the best UI, the best design, the best sound quality, the best accessories, and the best integration. If SanDisk wants to make cheap low-margin crap, that's their prerogative. They aren't going to make the iPod disappear by making cheap, crappy knockoffs.

Re:I can see this going over REAL well.

[omeomi]

They aren't going to make the iPod disappear by making cheap, crappy knockoffs.

Actually, I just recently purchased a SanDisk Sansa e250. It's quite nice, about the size of a Nano, and has more capacity and features for the price. The radio is built right in, so I didn't have to spend an extra $50 for a little radio thing, it will record radio or voice, and displays pictures and videos. My only complaint is that the scroll wheel, while obviously modeled after an iPod, is not quite as nice as the iPod's touch-sensitive thing, and makes it somewhat harder to push the buttons on the outside of the wheel.

Re:I can see this going over REAL well.

[0xdeadbeef]

It did and it does.

Or are you sarcastically implying that people vote after carefully weighing the issues, and not based on their identification with some form of cultural bigotry?

Re:I can see this going over REAL well.

[penguin-collective]

Apple is doing the same thing--they are insulting PC users, PC users they are hoping will switch to Apple.

Re:I can see this going over REAL well.

[Reaperducer]

they're swaying sheeple who don't do their homework before choosing a VOIP service

I did my homework and still went with Vonage. At the time they were the only VOIP service providing London and Paris phone numbers for $5/month. I still don't know of another company that does, though I'll gladly sign up with one that gives me a Hong Kong number.

Re:I can see this going over REAL well.

[toddestan]

Worked real well last presidential election I heard

It worked well for one of the two sides, but not so well for the other.

open source vs. single license locked itunes file

[metasecure]

I like the idea of a music player that is open source and will allow you to play any time of music as well as copy it off and use it in another player. vs. iTunes proprietary format.

Might as well cut out the middle man

[Jeremi]

Oh goody, a corporate-manufactured "cultural backslash" to a corporate-manufactured "cultural movement".

I vaguely remember the days when culture had something to do with people, not just competing marketing departments...

Re:Might as well cut out the middle man

[falcon5768]

well lets be honest, the iPod was not a result of a corporate-manufactured cultural movement at first. It has become that after word of mouth and Apple laching onto the momentum it created.

Re:Might as well cut out the middle man

[joshsisk]

This is true, it's not like Apple invented podcasting (for example), as much as they now want everyone to think they did. It sprang from the community.

Re:Might as well cut out the middle man

[McNally]

Oh goody, a corporate-manufactured "cultural backslash" to a corporate-manufactured "cultural movement".
I vaguely remember the days when culture had something to do with people, not just competing marketing departments...

Or maybe you just think you do..

Re:Might as well cut out the middle man

[shawb]

What you say? Apple would never do anything like THAT, would they? Taking community created and tested technology and putting it in a slick package would simply be unthinkable.

What are they gonna do next... take on open source operating system, put a slick UI on it and call it their own?

Re:Might as well cut out the middle man

[kfg]

I vaguely remember the days when culture had something to do with people, not just competing marketing departments...

You should come sign up for my online social network. We're much cooler than the dorks on MySpace, because we'd never sign up for something dorky like MySpace.

KFG

Re:Might as well cut out the middle man

[grasshole]

Hey, marketers are people too you know!

Re:Might as well cut out the middle man

[GlassHeart]

I vaguely remember the days when culture had something to do with people, not just competing marketing departments...

Would this be the days when a diamond was forever, or the days when an apple a day kept the doctor away? Corporate manipulation of popular culture, despite your low user ID, probably predates you.

Re:Might as well cut out the middle man

[spun]

Sorry, I'd never sign up for and online social network that would have a dork like me for a member. (With apologies to Groucho Marx.)

Re:Might as well cut out the middle man

[k4_pacific]

Does this mean that all the demonstrations and civil unrest of the sixties and early seventies weren't about buying the world a Coke?

Re:Might as well cut out the middle man

[blugu64]

I know it's trendy and all to bash apple, but they didn't "take on open source operating system, put a slick UI on it and call it their own?" per se. As the operating system is quite close to OpenStep, a company they bought..yadda yadda yadda. Point is they took the FreeBSD userland and ported that. Splitting hairs perhaps, but still the point remains.

Re:Might as well cut out the middle man

[Stu Charlton]

Marketing doesn't need a corporation behind it... Maoists and communists were doing it as well as capitalists (and better than them, in the earlier parts of the century).

Re:Might as well cut out the middle man

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, marketers are people too you know!

Barely.

Re:Might as well cut out the middle man

[P. Niss]

What you say?

I think someone set up Apple the bomb.

Re:Might as well cut out the middle man

[kchrist]

What are they gonna do next... take on open source operating system, put a slick UI on it and call it their own?

You say that like there's something wrong with it.

If the developers didn't want their code reused, or reused in commercial products, they would have released it under a different license.

Re:Might as well cut out the middle man

[Anonymous Coward]

I vaguely remember the days when culture had something to do with people, not just competing marketing departments...

Yes, the 1600s were pretty cool, but all the religious warfare tended to harsh the mellow somewhat.

Re:Might as well cut out the middle man

[iJed]

Yeah Mac OS X is a decedent of OpenStep, but what would you expect from the guy that ran NeXT? However Mac OS X is in no way just FreeBSD: it has a Mach 3.0 derived kernel, a custom driver model and totally different APIs. Calling Mac OS X a BSD is like calling Windows NT 3.5, Windows Vista

Re:Might as well cut out the middle man

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, NEXTSTEP = the Free part of BSD Unix + Mach + GCC + (Proprietary SomethingStep (I forget the name of the original framework they bought) + Objective C)

Mac OS X = (NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP) - BSD Unix) + Some of FreeBSD + Some of NetBSD + Some of OpenBSD + Misc. FOSS (GIMP Print libraries, etc) + Carbon/Quicktime.

So the GP's largely correct. The original NEXTSTEP was a set of Free operating system components, some non-Free things in the kernel, the objective C additions to GCC, and the proprietary framework that eventually became OpenStep. In short, a nice GUI slapped on an "open source" operating system. And Mac OS X is essentially more of that.

Re:Might as well cut out the middle man

[Nastard]

You call that a low user ID?

Re:Might as well cut out the middle man

[Nastard]

Disregard (or mod down) my post; I was reading the comment ID. I'm also retarded.

I thought it was odd that Slashdot was already up to fifteen million users.

Re:Might as well cut out the middle man

[shawb]

Sarcasm.

Re:Might as well cut out the middle man

[eluusive]

by Jeremi (14640) on Friday June 02, @03:24PM (#15456867)

14640 is not a low userid?

Re:Might as well cut out the middle man

[dynamo]

Nope. :)

Re:Might as well cut out the middle man

[obscureownership]

Well, if you want to play that game, cultural movements usually reflect the needs and values of the currently culture taking part in the given movement. Since our cultural values are centered around money, it makes total sense that corporations are the ones creating cultural movements.

Re:Might as well cut out the middle man

[blugu64]

wasn't that what I said? ;)

Who to support?!

[Anonymous Coward]

I... don't know who to support! It's Apple vs open source software! My world is crumbling - fanboy fighting fanboy, zealot fighting zealot. Cats and dogs living together!

Re:Who to support?!

[leonmergen]

... and this brings me to a question: where's microsoft? shouldn't they at least have attempted to take over the mp3 player market by now?

Re:Who to support?!

[Anonymous Coward]

I... don't know who to support!

Considering that this article about Sandisk appeared in the Apple section, it's pretty clear what SlashDot's opinion is. Why not just go with the flow, you SlashSheep. ;)

Re:Who to support?!

[babbling]

Apple are enemies of Free Software. They sell and promote DRM - Digital Restrictions Management.

Restrictions are opposite Freedom.

Re:Who to support?!

[mrchaotica]

Huh? Microsoft is trying to take over the music player market (note: not MP3 -- neither Apple nor Microsoft wants to sell an "mp3" player, but rather a "FairPlay [sic]" or "Plays For Sure [sic]" player respectively). It just hasn't been successful at it (thankfully!).

Of course, this Rockbox software is a great thing, because it doesn't support either kind of DRM! : )

Re:Who to support?!

[Deadguy2322]

If restrictions are the apotheosis of freedom, why is the GPL so restrictive?

Re:Who to support?!

[babbling]

It isn't. It grants people freedom and is restrictive only to the extent that it forbids others from taking away that freedom.

Re:Who to support?!

[Deadguy2322]

Okay, once more, this time without the party-line doubletalk.

Facts

[MrSquirrel]

SanDisk is the second most popular mp3 player? I thought Creative held that (with about a 5% market share).

Re:Facts

[moorcito]

Second most popular? Hell, I didn't even know sandisk made an mp3 player.

Re:Facts

[alphax45]

Neither did I. Unless they are counting players that use Sandisk FLASH and not ones specificaly made by Sandisk. That would make more sense as Sandisk is a big player in flash memory.

Re:Facts

[dogmatixpsych]

Hence the ad campaign that will result in 15 minutes of fame then life will go back to normal.

Re:Facts

[vought]

SanDisk is the second most popular mp3 player? I thought Creative held that (with about a 5% market share).


As the second most popular .mp3 player manufacturer, SanDisk should be very wqary of Creative's legal department - especially since some of the folks from Creative have been taking notes from SCO's legal department!

Re:Facts

[PopeRatzo]

Sandisk makes a very cool mp3 player. I've got a 2gig player, with an FM tuner that cost 1/2 of a 2gig Nano. They're good and sturdy, and the interface is fine. I actually think it's cooler than an iPud.

Re:Facts

[omeomi]

especially since some of the folks from Creative have been taking notes from SCO's legal department!

Ha! SCO could learn a few things form Creative...they sued Aureal out of business years ago, even though they lost the suit...

Re:Facts

[Anonymous Coward]

Hell, I didn't even know sandisk made an mp3 player.

You didn't? Did you know other computer makers use Intel CPUs?

Sheesh. You Mac fanbois need to peek outside your Mac universe once in a while.

Re:Facts

[MadAnthony02]

Well, the article is from the UK, so I'm not sure if the stats are the same for the US.

I've seen Sandisk players a lot lately - usually in ads for Staples/OD/Circuit City with a super-cheap-after-rebate price. My guess is that Sandisk is selling a lot of players, but more because of price than technology.

NEWS FLASH: iPod "Killer" Product/Campaign Launch!

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear Rockbox,

Oh no, not that! Nobody has ever accused iPod owners of being slaves to fashion before! I'm sure everybody in the world will now rush out to buy your heroic piece of shit music player now. What ever will we do???

Love,
Steve Jobs

P.S. Why not just make unlicensed stickers of Calvin pissing on the Apple logo while you're at it? The rest of your ads are almost, but not quite, that cool.

Breath of fresh air

[Anonymous Coward]

Anything to break the apple monopoly. SanDisk unlike others can be a formidable competitor to Herr Jobs's Apple. Their new e2xx players aren't too bad themselves.

Re:Breath of fresh air

[TomHandy]

Apple controls 100% of the mp3 player market? Or 100% of the digital music market? Wow, I didn't realize that. That is what you were saying when you said there was an Apple monopoly, right?

Re:Breath of fresh air

[amliebsch]

Microsoft controls 100% of the operating system market? Or 100% of the productivity software market? Wow, I didn't realize that. That is what you were saying when you said there was a Microsoft monopoly, right?

Re:Breath of fresh air

[DA-MAN]

Apple controls 100% of the mp3 player market? Or 100% of the digital music market? Wow, I didn't realize that. That is what you were saying when you said there was an Apple monopoly, right?

100% of a market does not a monopoly make. Microsoft was convicted of illegally leveraging their monopoly on the desktop, yet there were other operating systems.

Re:Breath of fresh air

[TomHandy]

When did I mention Microsoft specifically? I see the point you are making, but it doesn't fly. What specifically has Apple done with the iPod or iTunes that would actually fit the definition of a monopoly? Microsoft did actually have a sort of de facto OS monopoly (even though there were other OS vendors) precisely because of their arrangements with PC manufacturers. Apple on the other hand does not have anything comparable; that is, it's not like Apple has forced their iPod/iTunes platform onto every other mp3 player manufacturer out there (in fact, they've been criticized for keeping the iPod and iTunes Music Store constrained just within their own products). Even then though, MS wasn't really found to have a true monopoly; they had a near monopoly, which isn't really the same thing. MS's problem was more the abuse of that monopoly power in terms of pricing, bundling, and using methods to prevent other OS's from gaining a foothold. But Apple hasn't done anything along those lines. They haven't tried to do anything to force out other players...... if Apple really wanted to exert some sort of monopoly control over mp3 players, they would lower prices on iPods and make them PlaysForSure compatible, to give people even less of a reason to buy the competition. Also, note that a big part of monopoly power rests on controlling prices, and Apple doesn't specifically do that. Apple has no control over overall pricing of mp3 players, and they also have actually had to fight to keep prices lower on music from the iTMS. The success of the iTMS does allow Apple a lot of leeway in arguing to keep music prices at 99 cents, but this didn't specifically stop other music stores from setting their own prices, or even setting entirely different pricing models (subscriptions). Apple's situation with the iPod right now would be more like if Microsoft made PC's as well, and only made Windows and DOS for their own line of PC's, and let competing PC manufacuters use whatever other OS's and software they wanted. In that case, they would truly let the market decide (sort of like Apple and their own OS X/Mac combination). The fact that the iPod and iTMS have been very successful and control a large part of the marketplace does not make them close a monopoly, however.

Re:Breath of fresh air

[amliebsch]

They haven't tried to do anything to force out other players......

What would you call suing their competitors (e.g., Real) for making the iPod interoperable with other musical stores, if not trying to force out other players? Or, for that matter, their flat refusal to license the Fairplay DRM used by the iPod to other device manufacturers? Is not the fact that iPod is the only PMP that works with iTunes, and iTunes the only DRM-compatible music service that can work with iPods a pretty clear-cut case of product tying?

I'm not necessarily arguing that Apple does have a monopoly, of course - just pointing out the blatant hypocrisy.

Re:Breath of fresh air

[TomHandy]

I see what you're saying, but I still really don't think that's the same thing. It does mean that Apple is maintaining control of their own products, but that is not the same as forcing their products on others. Keeping other companies from being able to play their proprietary formats on the iPod and not allowing their own music to play on other players is not quite the same as forcing a standard on others (in fact, it is the opposite of this). Now, again, the abuse of a monopoly (or near monopoly) would come into play if Apple was doing something like forcing another company to use the FairPlay DRM, or forcing them to install iTunes, or forcing them to go through iTMS. Apple hasn't done any of these things, and again in fact has done quite the opposite.

The end result of this has been that companies making other subscription or pay music services and other mp3 players have had to set up their own standards and compete separately.

Really, say that Apple licensed the FairPlay DRM to Real, but said "You can only use FairPlay, but only if that is ALL you use." In essence, Apple would create a situation where even more people were required to buy iPods. If Apple really wanted to be hypocritical and abuse the monopoly powers like you're suggesting, all they would need to do is open up the iPod to PlaysForSure and other music services. This would take what is already a dominant market position for the iPod and make it almost a stranglehold on the industry - right now, probably a big thing keeping iPod competitors afloat is that they are the only options right now if you do have a subscription music service.

So again, I see what you're trying to hint at with Apple and their positions on the iPod and iTMS, but the reality is that they are really doing the opposite of what they could be doing if they really wanted to create a completely dominant stranglehold on the market for mp3 players. Seriously, like I said above, if the iPod was opened up to Real's system, and even made PlaysForSure compatible, you would have a ton of people who would now be able to just go ahead and buy an iPod instead of another mp3 player compatible with those services.

Apple has chosen instead to keep iTMS and the iPod as their own platforms, and rather than try to make them the only platforms on the market, they have basically taken a stance of just competing head-on with the other music players and music services.

This may or may not turn out well. Perhaps this new "Urge" music service that MS and MTV are doing, combined with Windows Media Player 11, will finally offer a compelling competitor. And the fact that Apple has made it so that you NEED another mp3 player besides an iPod to use that music is a huge bonus for other mp3 makers like Samsung, Sansa and Toshiba. So the competition will come down to which music service and music player in combination can provide a better experience. What it won't come down to is one company being able to force their single platform or combination across the entire market, since it is now clearly defined.

A Graffiti campaign?

[NekoIncardine]

I wonder who that's failed for recently *cough*Sony*cough* (Admittedly, these guys aren't being QUITE as brazen about it as Sony was, but...) I'll withold judgement on the item advertised itself since I don't know how good it is.

Re:open source vs. single license locked itunes fi

[Megane]

I like the idea of a music player that is open source and will allow you to play any time of music as well as copy it off and use it in another player. vs. iTunes proprietary format.

The only "proprietary" format is the DRM from the Music Store, and maybe ALAC lossless (I don't know if ALAC is open or not). It plays industry standard MP3 and AAC files just fine.

As long as you don't care about buying music online, there is nothing proprietary about an iPod.

iZZZZZZZ

[Quiet_Desperation]

The article also talks about SanDisk's subversive new anti-iPod advertising campaign which calls iPod owners 'iChimps'

What was the executive meeting for that one? "Hey, boss! Let's insult the hell out of our target market!"

and uses a 'street graffiti style' to create the illusion of a 'counter-culture uprising against the iPod'.

And nothing says "street cred" like a modern Western corporation. Hey, I be down wit dat, um, dogg... or word, or whatever. Shizzle-something.

The writer says, 'SanDisk is the first company to market its player as an ideological rather than technological alternative to the iPod.

Thanks SanDisk! I was just thinking this morning that, gosh, there simply is not enough mental illness^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H ideology in this world.

Re:iZZZZZZZ

[(A)*(B)!0_-]

"The writer says, 'SanDisk is the first company to market its player as an ideological rather than technological alternative to the iPod."

Which is exactly how Apple has sold their products in the past. The whole 'Think Different' campaign was perhaps more subtle but was still using the same idea.

Re:iZZZZZZZ

[drinkypoo]

The article also talks about SanDisk's subversive new anti-iPod advertising campaign which calls iPod owners 'iChimps'

What was the executive meeting for that one? "Hey, boss! Let's insult the hell out of our target market!"

Your knee hath jerked too soon. First, engage brain.

The primary target market for Sandisk is people who don't have an iPod. Why? Because they already have a fucking mp3 player. Their targeted market segment (with this campaign, especially) is the people who can't afford an iPod, or who don't want to patronize Apple because of the lingering air of fanboyism that permeates their products.

These people will likely respond favorably to being led to believe that they are not sheep (though clearly anyone who buys based purely on advertising is indeed a member of the sheeple at large.)

Re:iZZZZZZZ

[mobby_6kl]

>"Hey, boss! Let's insult the hell out of our target market!"

The iPod owners aren't their target market. Those people are a lost cause.

Re:iZZZZZZZ

[Fatal Darkness]

What was the executive meeting for that one? "Hey, boss! Let's insult the hell out of our target market!"

They probably went to the Sony school of marketing.

Re:iZZZZZZZ

[EvanED]

What was the executive meeting for that one? "Hey, boss! Let's insult the hell out of our target market!"

As opposed to the recent Apple commercials that feel as mudslinging as anything you see around election time?

"Finally, the Intel chip is freed from dull little boxes performing dull little tasks"

Re:iZZZZZZZ

[Atzanteol]

And nothing says "street cred" like a modern Western corporation. Hey, I be down wit dat, um, dogg... or word, or whatever. Shizzle-something.

I think you give suburban middle-class kids with lots of 'guilt money' *far* too much credit. Take a trip to a local high school - you'll see more walking billboards than at a NASCAR event...

Corporations have figured out teens for some time now.

Re:iZZZZZZZ

[blugu64]

if you have to explain it....

Re:iZZZZZZZ

[Tim Browse]

I actually really don't like the Think Different campaigns - at least, not the ones with pictures of famous people. It always feels like a totally cynical marketing ploy (wonder why) - the accomplishments of these people seem cheapened by the underlying message that if these people had been around today, they probably would have used Macs. Because, you know, you do, and you're just as cool and creative as them, aren't you? It stands to reason.

When Apple dedicated its front page to Rosa Parks when she died, I found that even more icky. I know it was supposed to be a noble and respectful nod to the woman, but it just felt like some marketing bod said "Rosa Parks died yesterday? Cool!". Probably due to the uncontrollably insufferable smugness that permeates every goddamn piece of Apple's marketing copy. It sets my teeth on edge. It's like Apple really wants to hang out with the popular kids.

It's probably just me, though.

Re:iZZZZZZZ

[Anonymous Coward]

The primary target market for Sandisk is people who don't have an iPod

It is now.

is the people who can't afford an iPod

They better lower their prices then.

who don't want to patronize Apple because of the lingering air of fanboyism that permeates their products.

Boldly marketing to the .01% of the population that uses the word fanboyism.

A one act play...

It's a Sansa e260.
So you got it for Christmas.
What?
From Santa.
No Sansa!
Tony Sansa.
What?
Who's the Boss?
What?
Gregor Samsa.
What?
It is a Kafka reference.
Pretentious ipod twit.

Re:iZZZZZZZ

[igb]

The set of people who want an MP3 player, haven't got an iPod and yet have the money to buy something in the neighbourhood of iPod prices is essentially null. There are probably a couple of /. readers somewhere who have held off pending Ogg Vorbis support and something that doesn't have fanboys, and perhaps you might be able to make a decent garage industry out of that. Two garages, perhaps.

ian

More Info:

[shrapnull]

I "accidentally" stumbled onto the iDon't website the other day when I was researching Ogg alternatives to iPod.

It's not so much that the iPod is without it's flaws, but for them to masquerade as a "revolution" counter-culture and have me find out that it's a sponsored astroturf really pissed me off. Not only that but the link to the SanDisk player on the site, also went to a SanDisk-sponsored page Anything But iPod.

I can judge for myself based on the qualities and features of a player for myself, but blogs are getting more and more worthless every day since big media will simply continue to masquerade with a false list of "satisfied customers" for everyone to see. A previous employer of mine has actually added astroturfers to their PR team that do nothing but spam forums with their excellent experience with the product they secretly happen to sell.

sigh...

Re:More Info:

[Anonymous Coward]

Astroturf abounds.

Slashdot is currently stacking high with panels of fake grass purchaced by Nintendo to hype the Wii.

Blogs and forums are filling up with this kind of crap.

The lesson here: Just because "1337RadicalD00d" on totallynotshilling.com says it, doesn't mean it's true, nor does it even mean that he believes what he's saying.

Re:More Info:

[dogmatixpsych]

Any company that advertises its products by calling users of other products derogatory names automatically has a major hit against it in my book. Calling Ipod users "iSheep," "iChimps," "iHerd," etc. is counter productive. "Hi! We're the company that slings around insults like 6-year-olds. We can't really compete with the iPod so we'll just resort to name calling." Yep, that's an intelligent way to win fans. Just because negative campaigns *barely* work in politics doesn't make them good business practices.

I just wanted to add that Apple does poke fun at its competitors in its ads but in a much more subtle and light-hearted way. There really is a big difference in these new anti-iPod ads and what Apple does in their ads.

Re:More Info:

[siegesama]

Slightly off-topic, but I'd like to mention (regarding your search for Ogg alternatives to iPod) that Rockbox runs awesome on my 5G iPod. Originally I would have preferred that apple would have stepped up and provided the Ogg support on its own, but the features and UI of Rockbox are actually better than the stock Apple firmware. There are some bugs and missing features to contend with (lack of video playback), but if necessary you can have rockbox boot back to the original firmware!

Re:More Info:

[ElGuapoGolf]

Anythingbutipod.com is not a sandisk site. They're an independent site that reviews MP3 players, as long as they're not iPods.

Re:More Info:

[kisrael]

That's a good point, like with their new "I'm a PC" "I'm a Mac" ads, they still make it clear who's cool, but they don't really argue that you can't do things on a PC... you just don't want to.

Re:More Info:

[dhasenan]

Perhaps SanDisk would have gotten better karma if it started a site that happened to give preference to its products for review (that is, SanDisk products are reviewed first; all SanDisk mp3 players get reviews) and actually seemed fair about its ratings and honest with its reviews?

It would have impressed us if we decided to trust it.

Re:More Info:

[Anonymous Coward]

Your right, Apple just screws thier existing customers, not the other companies customer and everyone is cool with that. They diligently hide all release information from consumers to prevent having excess inventory effectively screwing consumer but that is okay! Who is screwing who more?

Re:More Info:

[corbettw]

A previous employer of mine has actually added astroturfers to their PR team that do nothing but spam forums with their excellent experience with the product they secretly happen to sell.

Oh, I doubt that would actually happen. Especially not from SanDisk, they have the best mp3 players in the world! I own three, you should go out and buy one, too! They're so cool!

Re:More Info:

[supun]

For Ogg Vorbis, I use a Palm LifeDrive running Pocket Tunes. It has a Ogg Vorbis plug-in. The LiveDrive has a 4G drive and also the SD RAM card slot. It's a little expensive, but worked paid for mine :). Since the LifeDrive has Wifi, and BlueTooth, it can stream music. Just use the web browser and shoutcast.com.

I look at it like this, it might be more expensive ... however it plays music, streams music, plays AVI, browses the web, all the PDA stuff, and can run custom applications.

I have a SSH client on it so I can check my work's servers from any hotspot. :)

Re:More Info:

[Keebler71]

It is a shame that the vast majority of the mp3 player market treats the consumers as if we all have precisely the same requirement... I was in the market for one a several months ago and I settled on a 2gb nano. I hated it as it was completely ill suited for my needs. Before I get castigated as a troll, let me explain. I use my mp3 player to listen to music while exercising, listen to language lessons, and listen to podcasts. The latter two drive a requirement to be able to frequently pause and resume, have a large capacity, and have a display (I can think of nothing more painful than to try to find a specific podcast on a shuffle). The exercise requirement dictated that it had to be rugged (I will drop it) or so cheap that I don't care about scratches. What.I founf was that the Ipod interface, while great for playing playlists while strapped to you arm, was very difficult to navigate with one hand while running and sweating on it. There is no tactile feedback to tell you thaqt you have your finger on the right button and presuming you want to do a lot of pausing and playing (language lessons) it can be awkward to hold. The player I ended up exchanging it for (iRiver) fit nicely in my hand and I can easily control playback and song selection without looking at it (and while running).

. Moreover, and this isn't flamebait, I prefer to use windows media player on my pc. I realize that this is not the norm, but I hated the itunes app. It took two updates and three restarts to install, forced me to dl quicktime, and of course was incompatible with my ogg and wma files. My nano had a smaller capacity than my collection, so itunes decided to just randomly select mp3s to synch and then I found it surprisingly non-intuitive to select music to be synched (keep in mind that I was more comfortable with WMP).

Finally, the image thing, looking around my gym I sort-of generated a stereotype for the type of person that used an ipod. It is a very stylish device, but I am not a stylish person... So it just felt too metrosexual for me. By no means is the iRiver perfect, I have lots of complaints... but they mostly fall under categories that are minor to me and it gets the important things right. Forgive typos... Blackberry.

Re:More Info:

[2nd Post!]

How can we trust, then, that their reviews are both accurate and meaningful if they do not review iPods? That means their reviews are effectively unable to compare to an iPod because they cannot review an iPod to the same standards as the rest of the MP3 players on that site.

Re:More Info:

[dr_turgeon]

Sir, I don't see how, according to your requirements, the nano was "completely ill suited."
Must have large capacity: You buy a 2 gig nano? Will 4 gigs do? I think they have those.
Must have a display: ??? Last time I looked at mine, the nano has that.
Must be rugged: http://arstechnica.com/reviews/hardware/nano.ars/3

Yes, something seems wrong here.
"I prefer to use windows media player...."
Hey, to each his own; but this smells fishy.

Also, your aversion to being seen as "too metrosexual" is interesting. Do you consider 70% (or is it 80% now?) of MP3-player owners frighteningly "stylish"?

Re:More Info:

[Keebler71]

Sir, I don't see how, according to your requirements, the nano was "completely ill suited." Must have large capacity: You buy a 2 gig nano? Will 4 gigs do? I think they have those. Must have a display: ??? Last time I looked at mine, the nano has that. Must be rugged: http://arstechnica.com/reviews/hardware/nano.ars/3

I never said that capacity was a shortcoming of the iPod,.. I was just listing my requirements. The iPod met many of them - particularly in capacity and display, both of which were very nice. Despite your link, after one week of actually using the iPod, I wasn't convinced it was rugged enough. Sure, it may have survived a few drops - but then it would have messed up that pretty mirror-like back panel. Oddly, this probably wouldn't have bothered me if it didn't even have a mirror finish on the back panel. If you read on... my biggest problem with the nano was clearly the user-interface. I found that you could opperate it easily while standing still, or you could operate it while running and looking at it, but you couldn't realiably use it while running AND not looking at it, and that is my primary mode of operation.

Yes, something seems wrong here. "I prefer to use windows media player...." Hey, to each his own; but this smells fishy.

I've been using WMP for at least five years since I got over winamp. Why would it seem fishy that I would be more familiar with it than iTunes which has a completely different user interface, look and feel?

Also, your aversion to being seen as "too metrosexual" is interesting. Do you consider 70% (or is it 80% now?) of MP3-player owners frighteningly "stylish"?

No, just the men I saw at the gym with them. More to the point, I am simply not a "Style" kind of person, so it sort of bothered me that so much of the mystic of the iPod is its "sexiness/style". I certainly did have the opinion that "most iPod users" were like the "cattle" mentioned in the article. I have friends who rant and rave about their iPods - when asked what they like so much... they never could give an actual answer. I am not a part of that crowd. Again, I am not saying that there is anything wrong with iPods, just that it wasn't the best choice for me to take on a 15 mile run during which I will be hitting the play/pause button about 200 times.

Re:More Info:

[undeaf]

How is this astroturfing? It's the exact opposite, they're taking existing anti apple sentiment and turning it into ads, which likely will be mistaken for original apple bashing. If you need to call it something, how about trollparroting?

Re:More Info:

[bluk]

Why didn't you buy the iPod remote (the controller extension)? You strap the iPod securely to your arm via one of those armbands and then plug in the iPod remote and you have a pretty rugged solution that you can easily control sweating and all. It doesn't seem like money is a huge concern for you.

Re:open source vs. single license locked itunes fi

[mveloso]

You mean proprietary formats like mp3 and AAC? While iTunes only sells protected AAC and audible tracks, you can in fact use your normal mp3 and AAC encoded files on your iPod.

I think what you mean is you'd rather have Microsoft Plays-For-Sure DRM'd files instead of Apple's FairPlay DRM'd files, which is something totally different.

Yuck.

[Rob T Firefly]

"'SanDisk is the first company to market its player as an ideological rather than technological alternative to the iPod. To do so is to fight Apple on their own terms.'"

"Fighting Apple on their own terms," they say? I see it as more of a "sinking to their level."

Re:Yuck.

[ppz003]

"'SanDisk is the first company to market its player as an ideological rather than technological alternative to the iPod. To do so is to fight Apple on their own terms.'"

"Fighting Apple on their own terms," they say? I see it as more of a "sinking to their level."

Well, you do have to go to where most of the potential customers are, don't you?

So why not do it themselves

[WindBourne]

and make it their core? This is the best way to get things moving.

Who's the sheep?

[deltagreen]

Don't be a sheep and copy everyone else. Be an individualist and buy a completely unique looking MP3-player that resembles nothing else :-P

Re:Who's the sheep?

[dogmatixpsych]

Now your post is pretty funny.

Re:Who's the sheep?

[binary paladin]

Two things came to mind when reading this thread, and your post in particular:

• Individuality
• Conformity

This campaign is ridiculous. Although, I think it's pretty fitting that they have the punk music like motif on their website since it's the same "anti-estabishment... but not really" crap that this idont.com stuff is.

All of this nonsense makes me want to start another Fight Club.

Re:open source vs. single license locked itunes fi

[Whiney Mac Fanboy]

he only "proprietary" format is the DRM from the Music Store, and maybe ALAC lossless (I don't know if ALAC is open or not). It plays industry standard MP3 and AAC files just fine.

mp3 & aac are both proprietary formats too.

Re:open source vs. single license locked itunes fi

[Anonymous Coward]

Though he is correct that the iPod software provides no easy way to copy music back off the iPod (and stores them stripped of their names internally if you get access to the file-system)

Sad individual who needs to get with the program

[kindbud]

Their propaganda site www.idont.com used to have a message when you logged in with Javascript disabled that said "You're a sad individual who needs to get with the program." Really. This message was surrounded by a bunch of slogans like "Think For Yourself" and "Resist Conformity."

They've changed it to say "This site requires Flash and a sense of humor" but I thought the earlier message was a lot more funny.

Is it just me...

[russotto]

Or does this article stink like a press release?

Re:NEWS FLASH: iPod "Killer" Product/Campaign Laun

[infinityxi]

Yeah, you probably mean SanDisk. Rockbox is just the open source firmware/software that can be installed on a variety of mp3 players. Sending them that email will probably result in absolutely nothing. Try an online petition against rockbox for doing something they have entirely nothing to do with.

Re:NEWS FLASH: iPod "Killer" Product/Campaign Laun

[mindtriggerz]

Dear Mr. Jobs,

I believe your letter should be addressed to SanDisk, not us.

Lollypops and Rainbows,
Rockbox

the campaign is quite hysterical

[X_Caffeine]

Since it has that sort of stink of knee jerk "anti-corporate subversion" advertising (see David Foster Wallace's E Plurabus Unam), it fails to astroturf. The graphic mentally reinforce "ipod ipod ipod ipod" in the viewers subconscious. In the end, it just makes you feel sorry for all of Apple's competitors.

Re:the campaign is quite hysterical

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe there was an advertising idea which basically said "never mention your competitors name, it just reaffirms in the consumer's mind that your product is inferior." While I didn't see Sandisk actually using the iPod name, using the lower case i followed by capitalized Word is close enough.

Sure, you might be able to sway a couple people, but you end up losing more potential customers than gaining them.

who's the ape?

[matthewcharles2006]

The article also talks about SanDisk's subversive new anti-iPod advertising campaign which calls iPod owners 'iChimps' and uses a 'street graffiti style' to create the illusion of a 'counter-culture uprising against the iPod'.

Their argument that iPod users are chimps would be a tad more convincing if, when seeking evoke urban street style 'counter-culture', they didn't turn to the same method every other ad agency does: aping Shepard Fairy's decade old Obey posters.

I don't get it...

[craigtheguru]

Siding with Microsoft and a conglomeration of other Plays For Sure companies sure sounds like stickin' it to the man and independent thinking to me! *shakes head*

It is obvious that these companies don't get it. Instead of trying to compete by offering a compelling and highly integrated product they've moved on to what is essentially name calling. Next they'll say that every time you buy an iPod Jesus cries and kittens die.

Just produce a must-have product and the sales will take care of themselves! Until that time I'll keep buying iPods because that is what iPod+iTunes is!

Re:I don't get it...

[halfcuban]

Just produce a must-have product and the sales will take care of themselves!

Not really. If your product isn't in stores, if it has no marketing support, and there is no userbase for word of mouth, you're dead in the water. Many startups, especially technology start ups, have produced quality software and hardware, only to be annihilated. Quality of product has little to do with it. Insert your favorite tech company that has either gone down the tubes or is now a minority player.

Re:I don't get it...

[geekoid]

then they didn't create a must have product, did they?

Re:I don't get it...

[ad0gg]

I'll keep buying ipods because i have money invested in itunes songs and apple refuses to license fairplay to 3rd parties. mmm consumer lock in.

Re:I don't get it...

[halfcuban]

That's circular logic if I've ever heard it. If it wasn't a success it was because it was terrible, as opposed to the reality that sometimes, great products simply don't make it for a lot of external factors outside of their control. If all the stores have their distribution channels locked up, if they're entering a market that is a monopoly and they get locked out, or if simply they don't have enough venture capital money for big TV ad campaigns and the like. It happens. Good ideas fail, through no fault of their own.

Re:I don't get it...

[mrchaotica]

You didn't have to buy music from iTMS just because you've got an iPod, you know! You only brought the lock-in upon yourself.

Misdirected?

[manx801]

I'm not sure how mocking ipod owners in this way will entice potential ipod buyers into opting for something different. In my experience, people attracted to the ipod are kind of sheep like in many ways. Those that reject (or wish to reject) sheepish behavior tend not to like ipods. So this advert campaign with likely have little effect.

Sandisk who?

[Infernal Device]

Good luck with that advertising campaign, Sandisk.

adjusts iPod earbuds for slightly more comfort. Goes back to happily munching grass ...

Re:Sandisk who?

[Jerry Rivers]

I wish them luck too. Afterall, calling your potential customers names is bound to work.

Variety of Models can be Confusing

[abscissa]

Psychologists have consistently shown that people actually prefer fewer choices to more choices. It just makes life easier and more straightforward, even though it is counterintuitive.

Part of Apple's strength is that there aren't ten trillion different models with model numbers to purchase, only 3 that come in difference sizes. Has anyone seen Creative's lineup of MP3 players? They have an MP3 player for every occasion.

Copying one part of Apple's marketing strategy alone is not sufficient to match their unparalleled marketing genius.

Re:Variety of Models can be Confusing

[Budenny]

"Copying one part of Apple's marketing strategy alone is not sufficient to match their unparalleled marketing genius." No, you have to work very hard at it, and first acquire 15% of a growing market, and then figure out some way to get steadily down to 2%, while having your fans cheer all the way and proclaim your unparalleled growth and extraordinary marketing genius. There may not be room for two of these in the world.

Re:Variety of Models can be Confusing

[penguinstorm]

Indeed. Meaningless distinctions between products in the end create confusion more than anything else.

I was just shopping for a Thinkpad for work - figured an R43 would be good. Turns out there's a bunch of R43's, with some silly distinction on the end. Different drives, different screens etc.

Apple's computer marketing has been very succesful for the same reason it's iPod marketing has been. You buy an iPod that holds 4,000 songs. Not an jPod II Model 3-8 with the optional FM transmitter.

Re:Variety of Models can be Confusing

[xocp]

This article is about SanDisk's campaign against Apple iPod; is Creative involved in this too?

In reviewing SanDisk's product lineup it seems fairly trim (about 5 main products). So perhaps they are indeed competing along similar lines?

Re:Variety of Models can be Confusing

[pintomp3]

oh, that must be why all cars on the road look the same. people prefer fewer choices.

Re:Variety of Models can be Confusing

[gh]

Competing with Apple along similar lines? With such catchy names like e200 or c140?

Re:Variety of Models can be Confusing

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple's computer marketing has been very succesful

. . . in some alternate universe, perhaps. Apple is on track this year for breaking their FY 1995 number of units sold for the first time ever according to their own SEC 10-K reports, while the overall personal computer market had double-digit unit sales growth every single year during the same time period.

That's not "very successful". That's not "successful". That's not even "ordinarily competent". That's "Thank God there are devoted fans that will keep buying our computers at premium prices even as we desperately commoditize the stuff under the hood to maximize profits, and are willing to pretend that NuBus PPC Macs running MacOS have anything in common with Intel PCs running NeXT except a logo".

Re:Variety of Models can be Confusing

[Anonymous Coward]

No, this is probably why each auto brand produces simple lines that include some of the following: light SUV, heavy SUV, one compact/economy, one mid-size, one sport, one light pick-up, one heavy pick-up, one van, etc.

I mean, c'mon, Scion only has three models. Ford (the brand, not the motor corp.), with one of the biggest lines expresses the 8 varieties with about two models each (16 vehicles for 2006).

If simplifying lines didn't matter, these auto companies wouldn't have 20 different brands, you'd just have a huge, huge variety from: Ford, GM, Honda, Nissan, Toyota.

Anyhow, when you sit down and say, "I want minivan" you don't have as many choices as you do when you say "I want a laptop". If you go to Ford and say, I want a pick-up, you're going to have the same amount of choices (Ranger, F-150, Super Duty) as when you go to Apple and say I wand an iPod (Shuffle, Nano, iPod). If you want to be really pedantic, throw in the Explorer Sport Trac and the U2 iPod.

I don't want to have a big debate about it, I'm just saying that cars are a bad example when it comes to vendors streamlining their product offerings.

Re:Variety of Models can be Confusing

[mrchaotica]

That's "Thank God there are devoted fans that will keep buying our computers at premium prices even as we desperately commoditize the stuff under the hood to maximize profits, and are willing to pretend that NuBus PPC Macs running MacOS have anything in common with Intel PCs running NeXT except a logo".

You are aware that some people (like me, for instance) buy Macs specifically because they're "[commodity] PCs running NeXT," right? I hated "classic" Mac OS.

Re:Variety of Models can be Confusing

[penguinstorm]

You say tomato, I say apple.

There were dark years at Apple (thank you Gil Amelio, you German bastard) and marketing initiatives do NOT create short term immediate turn arounds. They take time to pay off.

When Steve took over the press was all over the "when will Apple die" story. Next came the "Cute computer" story. Next the "Isn't the iPod cool story." Now we're getting "Maybe Steve should run Disney" and "Apple computer are becoming popular: start watching out for viruses."

The tide has turned in a fairly substantial way, which is not to say that there's not still the potential for an undertow.

Re:Variety of Models can be Confusing

[Anonymous Coward]

By FY 2000, Apple had made a full transition to its Jobs model, and it sold 3.5 million Macs -- five years after the previous sales spike, meaning as replacement for the older Macs in accordance with Apple's self-reported mean service life of five years per Mac. It then immediately crashed back down to the baseline sales level and stayed there for four fiscal years (2001, 2002, 2003, and 2004). Then it had the next five-years-have-passed sales spike in '05, followed by a spike the next year in sales for the Intel transition. Look for another return to baseline after the x86 switch completes. As a general-trend thing, Jobs is unable to sell Macs to anything but the already-installed base (plus just enough new buyers to make up for lost customers), though he's brilliant at milking that base.

The last time Apple had sustained year-to-year Mac unit sales growth, it had a vast number of minutely differentiated models, much like current companies (such as Dell) that are actually successful at selling computers. And it was working to the plan of a real marketing guy, named Sculley, who had the foresight to see the inevitability of the Intel transition despite the blindness of the Apple board, who amply demonstrated their lack of foresight by going with Spindler and Amelio.

However, Jobs does seem to be able to sell iPods. I expect Apple will do very well selling iPods and accessories in the future, especially when financed by the cash they get from selling off the Macintosh business unit to Dell.

They don't support OGG

[Anonymous Coward]

They are all anti-iPod-ideology but they don't support OGG format...

On Apple's Terms

[bahwi]

Apple's terms haven't been popularity, "counter-culture" or anything else. Yes, that's helped, a lot, but the biggest thing about it is it is easy. It's a music player. Nothing more. It's not a strange new fangled USB device that connects to the computer in some weird way, and you have to load weird software and jump through hoops to get it to work. Apple integrated everything it could, made it as simple as your CD player, and then sold it.

It's cool for geeks to have an iPod cuz they're expensive, but for most of the world, iPods work. I've known people who have bought most others and spent days figuring it out. With an iPod you go home, install iTunes, rip a CD, plug it in(or sit it in the dock) and that's it. You don't have to click through 15 menus to copy music over, you just connect it with the computer and it does the rest for you.

Not trying to sound like an Apple Fanboy here, but it looks like SanDisk is only targeting geeks with this. The counter culture thing is cool, but when you tell your friends you're gonna go get a sandisk whatever it's called, they'll say "Oh, that's really hard to use. I just sold mine on ebay and got an ipod" what's all that counter culture crap gonna do for you?

I don't say this to say "Apple Forever!" I'm saying that everyone else needs to make it simple. I'm tired of calls from friends and relatives who got an MP3 player and can't get it to work, the others I tell to get an ipod and poof, no trouble. Just cuz you have an MP3 player doesn't mean you know what an MP3 is, what a computer is, or how or why the CPU is not the big black box that everything plugs into with the Dell logo.

Re:On Apple's Terms

[Lussarn]

It's not a strange new fangled USB device that connects to the computer in some weird way, and you have to load weird software and jump through hoops to get it to work

Uh, the iPod may have some strength but what you described is the iPod. 99% of all mp3 players you just connect to your computer and put your music on. No software required, no hops to make them work, and they work everywhere (on any OS) as long as you bring the USB cable. The iPod on the other hand does require software to be installed. And it won't function properly without it.

Re:On Apple's Terms

[Anonymous Coward]

"It's not a strange new fangled USB device that connects to the computer in some weird way"

"and you have to load weird software and jump through hoops to get it to work."

iTunes? So my ogg and FLAC files will play on there no problem?

I'm sorry, I'll stick with my USB Mass Storage based players, no special drivers, no special software, any OS, just use the standard file managment tools (Windows Explorer, Finder, cp, etc.)

Re:On Apple's Terms

[penguin-collective]

Yes, that's helped, a lot, but the biggest thing about it is it is easy. It's a music player. Nothing more.

No, it's not; by itself, the iPod is nearly useless. The iPod is really a integrated set of desktop tools, devices, and on-line services. That may be what you like and want, but it's anything but simple, and it also restricts what you can do with it to what Apple chooses to make easy to do with it.

Not trying to sound like an Apple Fanboy here, but it looks like SanDisk is only targeting geeks with this.

And the problem with that is what exactly? Why should the geeks have to live with the carefully managed, corporately designed experience that the iPod provides?

The counter culture thing is cool, but when you tell your friends you're gonna go get a sandisk whatever it's called, they'll say "Oh, that's really hard to use.

I think you underestimate both people and open source software. First of all, there is no basis for your assertion that RockBox's UI is worse than Apple's. Second, RockBox has plenty of useful music-specific capabilities that lots of people might want: better sound quality, on-the-go playlists, more codecs, voice interface, to name just a few.

As for the iPod, I have one (a Nano), and while it is good at some things (eg. Podcasts), it sucks at others. For example, it's a pain to travel with because it can't handle synchronization with multiple desktops and because of that stupid proprietary cable. On balance, if I had to make do with a single MP3 player, it wouldn't be the iPod, it would be my no-name Chinese player.

Re:On Apple's Terms

[prockcore]

It's a music player. Nothing more.

And a photo viewer, and a movie player, and a game player.

The ipod is no longer simplicity itself.. neither is the bloatware that is iTunes.

Re:On Apple's Terms

[HardCase]

iTunes is not iPod.

I tossed iTunes the day that I bought my iPod. I use Anapod Explorer. On several computers.

Re:On Apple's Terms

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not a strange new fangled USB device that connects to the computer in some weird way, and you have to load weird software and jump through hoops to get it to work.

Funnily enough that's exactly why I prefer my non-apple Mp3 player to the iPod i have lying around somewhere.

Re:On Apple's Terms

[penguin-collective]

iTunes is not iPod.

iTunes is the reason iPod is so successful. If you don't use it, you're in a tiny minority.

I tossed iTunes the day that I bought my iPod. I use Anapod Explorer. On several computers.

I understand the sentiment, given that the iPod/iTunes combo is restrictive in some ways. However, many of the limitations that prompted you to get Anapod in the first place don't exist with other MP3 players. For example, with my other MP3 player, I just plug it into either a Mac or Windows machine, and I can transfer content (photos, audio, video, text) back and forth with no software installation at all.

Re:On Apple's Terms

[mrchaotica]

Indeed, the grandparent post greatly overstated his case. However, you missed the point he was trying to make, which is this: Plugging your iPod in and having iTunes automatically copy over all your music (including the [smart] playlists, song ratings, and other metadata you already set up) in a music-oriented way is a lot easier than dropping down to a lowest-common-denominator, file-oriented interface.

In other words, what he was really trying to say is that installing and using iTunes doesn't count as "load[ing] weird software and jump[ing] through hoops to get it to work" because it actually works intuitively and well, and is even better than no software at all.

Re:On Apple's Terms

[mrchaotica]

...and I can transfer content (photos, audio, video, text) back and forth with no software installation at all.

Yeah, but you can't transfer playlists and metadata back and forth, and playlists and metadata are what makes the iPod/iTunes combo so great. It more than compensates for the restrictiveness of it.

Re:On Apple's Terms

[penguin-collective]

Most metadata is in the MP3 file; the only additional one is last-played and rating, and that's of limited utility for general music.

As for playlists, actually, the no-name works better than the iPod, since it reflects the directory hierarchy in the browser. I find the iPod/iTunes disregard for directories to be a major nuisance.

Overall, I think the only area where the iPod is better than the no-name is for podcasts.

Re:On Apple's Terms

[mrchaotica]

As for playlists, actually, the no-name works better than the iPod, since it reflects the directory hierarchy in the browser.

So how do you like maintaining symlinks for 15 different hierarchies, so that you can sort your music in different ways like I do with smart playlists?

Re:open source vs. single license locked itunes fi

[UnknownSoldier]

One word: iPodDisk

It's the prefix

[Harmonious Botch]

Apple got its position due to a catchy and flexible prefix: 'podcast', 'podslurp', pod-anything.

Definitely not taking them through price...

[guice]

0.o

Sansa(TM) e270 MP3 Player 6GB Price: $279.99
Sansa(TM) e260 MP3 Player 4GB Price: $229.99
Sansa(TM) e250 MP3 Player 2GB Price: $179.99

A bit high there. My music collection won't even fit on their highest end product. Not to mention any videos you might want to load. They do realize it takes a little bit more than direct attacks against "the fad" to gain customers over.

Re:Definitely not taking them through price...

[ktulu1115]

True, the prices are a bit high, however one of the nice features the e200 series has is a microSD slot to add more capacity to the player. Not entirely sure how large you can get that media in, nor how much it costs... but is a plus to have.

Re:open source vs. single license locked itunes fi

[Anonymous Coward]

Strips the names, but not the ID3 tags. Import them into iTunes, and your file names are automatically rebuilt.

Their right but

[Coeurderoy]

Currently the SanDisk line required Window XP and WMA 10+
So let's say it's tito raging against staline, or Franco against Musolini.
If they offer a rockbox version and find some distributors willing to support music and video distributions in some open format i'll be able to aplaud.

Right now I'll keep my PMA400 (archos PDA+Player Linux based :-))

Re:Their right but

[ktulu1115]

Actually the e200 series works fine on Linux and Windows 2000 (for me at least). My mom got an e250 for Mother's Day and I hooked it up to my Ubuntu box, copied MP3's straight over, no problems. I think for the MTP (media transfer protocol) mode used in Windows Media Player, you need XP. Otherwise the player comes up straight as a flash drive.

Re:Their right but

[the_crowbar]

You might want to check out the review on anythingbutipod.com They state that:

SanDisk gave us the best of both worlds by including MTP and UMS transfer protocols, which are switchable in the user settings. MTP gives you the option to automatically sync your media with Windows Media Player 10 and other DRM services. UMS (SanDisk calls it MSC, or Mass Storage Controller) allows you to drag and drop your music onto the player, keeping the folders organized how you want. UMS also means that the Sansa e200 is compatible with virtually all operating systems.

[emphasis mine]

It does not require Windows XP and Windows Media Player 10, although it does work with that combo.

Cheers,
The_crowbar

Re:Their right but

[prockcore]

Currently the SanDisk line required Window XP and WMA 10+

No it doesn't. I have a sandisk player, it mounts on my ibook as a regular drive.. I drag mp3s over to it, and when I unplug, the player itself automatically indexes the new files.

That interface is waaay better than iPod which requires special software.

Re:Their right but

[apflwr3]

It does not require Windows XP and Windows Media Player 10, although it does work with that combo.

You're right, but Sandisk's site explicitly lists XP as a requirement. Which seems to be the norm with the iPod competitors, even the ones that work with any system just by dragging and dropping music files into folders. Do they just assume no OSX user would ever consider buying anything but an iPod?

Re:Their right but

[jdgeorge]

You're right, but Sandisk's site explicitly lists XP as a requirement.

You mean, the product site for, say, a Sandisk MP3 player? It is indeed true that Windows XP is listed... as is MacOS.

Re:Their right but

[sapgau]

I have a Sandisk e130 and it just plugs to the USB port to be used like any other drive.

You then can drag over and remove the files you want.

What's missing on Sandisk players is a little improvement on their navigation menu and to be able to remember on what part of the song you stopped.

my $0.02

Re:Their right but

[mrchaotica]

That interface is waaay better than iPod which requires special software.

So how does it transfer your Smart Playlists and stuff, then?

Re:Their right but

[jeriqo]

I bet you don't have 6000 songs..

Re:Their right but

[glesga_kiss]

I bet you don't have 6000 songs..

Are you kidding? I set up a pals iPod for her, dropping 20gig onto it. If I could have dragged and dropped it would have been way easier and done overnight. Instead it took three days and a lot of manual effort.

Re:Their right but

[jeriqo]

What if you add/modify some music.. drop 20gigs again ?

Re:Their right but

[glesga_kiss]

What if you add/modify some music.. drop 20gigs again ?

No. Simply drag and drop the new stuff onto the drive. The "ideal" mp3 player can be mounted as a drive. Couldn't be simpler. Having to import to some music db just to copy across is a bit much IMHO.

Re:Their right but

[bXTr]

Only their line of Digital Audio Players work with Mac OS 9 or X, and their largest capacity model has only 1G. That only holds about 240 MP3 songs. Their whole Sansa line requires XP and WMP 10, and they have larger capacities.

SanDisk Baits Apple....

[dgatwood]

The only problem is that they're not masters at it.

:-D

Audible

[Midnight Warrior]

Perhaps they'll help get Audible out into the open with their proprietary codec. Doubt it though Audible everyone shuts down everyone who posts tranfer methods from their proprietary format to MP3. Sorry, no links since those get taken down too (i.e. GoldWave)

just about marketing?

[General Lee's Peking]

Whoever wrote the article, as well as many people in this forum, seems to believe that the success behind the iPod is merely or at least mostly about marketing. Even though the iPods are not the most impressive players out there with respect to either technology or price, I have to disagree with the pure marketing theory. There is also the question of support. The iTunes software is an extremely easy and convenient interface for a computer to the iPod. Furthermore, buying music off of the iTunes music store is far more convenient than ripping it from a CD, especially if you don't really ever plan to play the physical CD after buying it. And it takes a lot for a company to make something like the iTunes music store available.

That being said, the SanDisk might be a better choice for CD pack rats such as myself, but I don't feel most people seeking convenience are going to feel the same way.

illegal in the EU?

[abigsmurf]

Are they allowed to do this kind of aggressive marketing in the EU? I thought there were tough laws that prevented direct comparissons between products or "xxx is 10% better than yyy".

Re:illegal in the EU?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I can tell you the legislation in Portugal allows it. The law we have "preventing" it actually prevents nothing at all. It just basically states that "it's forbidden, unless based on true facts". There was a lot of commotion some years ago when Burger King used that loophole against McDonald's.

SanDisk only supports Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

...so much for being a rebel against the iPod hegemony if you use a Mac or a Linux box. Apparently, you can only be a Rebel(tm) against the iSheep(tm) if you run Windows.

Re:SanDisk only supports Windows

[toddestan]

...so much for being a rebel against the iPod hegemony if you use a Mac or a Linux box. Apparently, you can only be a Rebel(tm) against the iSheep(tm) if you run Windows.

It's kind of like rebelling against the boy racer and the riceboy crowd by driving a Ford Taurus. I know, it's strange.

Not Sheep

[Grendol]

They aren't sheep, they are pod people that Apple has been "snatching". And here we stand on the side of the information superhighway screaming "you're next!"

wait, I shouldnt have said that, I am one. Mmwuhh hahahahahaa!

All the wrong cues

[bakayoko]

"The stencilled graphics and ancient typewriter font give the impression of an underground movement against cultural homogenisation. But visit the idont.com Web site espoused by the ads and you'll uncover a different story. Far from a triumph of AdBusters or a campaign financed by Naomi Klein converts, these posters are actually SanDisk's new marketing campaign."

Uh... Underground movement against cultural homogenisation? AdBusters? Naomi Klein?

They seem to be taking their cues from some really effective and successful campaigns.

Recipe for an iPod

[9mm Censor]

1 part - Good UI 1 part - Stylish and different hardware 1 part - Integration to computers and music store 1 part - Marketing

Never say things you will regret

[Anonymous Coward]

never say things you cant take back.

Apple shouldn't complain

[m874t232]

Apple has made a career out and a fortune out of portraying their competitors as evil and dominating, and people who buy their competitors' products as boring and conforming. It is only fair that when Apple dominates a market, others do the same thing to them.

Re:Apple shouldn't complain

[bakayoko]

Apple has made a career out and a fortune out of portraying their competitors as evil and dominating, and people who buy their competitors' products as boring and conforming.

That's because their competitors are evil and dominating. And people who buy their competitors' products are boring and conforming, and they know it. What world do you live in?

As far as this whole "ideology vs technology" thing, that hasn't been Apple's "turf" for damn near a decade.

If you have to buy useless consumer crap, you could do a whole lot worse than the iPod, IMHO.

Re:Apple shouldn't complain

[General Lee's Peking]

Apple hasn't complained so far, that I know about anyway. Were you expecting them to do so? The way you've put your comment makes it sound like Apple has already been whining about this. Is that fair to paint them that way?

Re:Apple shouldn't complain

[m874t232]

The phrase "Apple shouldn't complain" has nothing to do with Apple actually complaining; it's a colloquialism.

As for whether Apple will actually publicly "whine" about it, I expect not. That's not because Apple is a nice company, it's because SanDisk isn't big enough and doesn't have enough brand recognition to bother with.

What I do expect is that if they ever started feeling that RockBox affects them in any way, Apple would try to shut it down with threats of legal action for anything they can find--after all, it wouldn't be the first time.

Re:Apple shouldn't complain

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because their competitors are evil and dominating. And people who buy their competitors' products are boring and conforming, and they know it. What world do you live in?

You've been living under a rock. Apple started its business by copying other people's technology and then attempting to sue their competitors over that. Free software developers were furious with them for a decade (perhaps before your time), and that resolved itself not because Apple changed, but because the court case fizzled out. When it comes to evil and dominating behavior, Apple is pretty high on the list, probably ahead of Microsoft in many ways.

And you may think about RockBox on SanDisk whatever you like, but it is certainly not conformist. If SanDisk ships it pre-installed, I think it will be a great solution that frees people from the shackles that companies like Apple are trying to impose on them. Heck, you can't even really use iPod without running Apple's marketing and advertising vehicle called iTunes.

If you have to buy useless consumer crap, you could do a whole lot worse than the iPod, IMHO.

MP3 players are a vital part of our culture--people use them for news, lectures, entertainment, theater, and lots of other functions.

So, you're sort of right: iPod may be "useless consumer crap" because it's carefully controlled by Apple for its own purposes. But RockBox isn't because RockBox is something that's developed with the users' interests in mind--RockBox is a cultural and social tool.

Re:Apple shouldn't complain

[mkiwi]

Apple has made a career out and a fortune out of portraying their competitors as evil and dominating, and people who buy their competitors' products as boring and conforming. It is only fair that when Apple dominates a market, others do the same thing to them.

I think it is important to make a distinction between Apple and zealous Apple users. Apple as a corporation pokes fun at Microsoft some times, but those times have been in good taste. What you are referring to, I believe, is a gross generalization that anything Apple goes against Microsoft, MS being the "dominator."

SanDisk's IDont.com online ads: thumbs down!

[adverlicious]

Marginally better than Calvin pissing on the Apple logo, but not by much!

http://adverlicio.us/sandisk_idont_com_isheep_say_ baah_300x250

http://adverlicio.us/sandisk_idont_com_are_you_an_ ichimp_300x250

Re:NEWS FLASH: iPod "Killer" Product/Campaign Laun

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear ScanDick,

I've been informed that I got your company name wrong in my previous missive. For that I'm truly sorry. It was very inconsiderate of me. I care deeply about who the fuck you are and will be very careful to get it right from now on.

Sincerely,
Steve Jobs

P.S. Enclosed is a prototype of the next-generation iPod nano. Please pass it along to your "R&D" department. We eagerly look forward to seeing your next rip-off of our designs and trade dress.

I Don't Think So

[Anonymous Coward]

These corporate turkeys think way too much.

This Matters Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have my iPod, iTunes, and the Apple iTunes Store. Why would I want to change?

Listening to music is not some technological challenge. There is no "competition" to have the best IU to an MP3 Player. I can put music from any CD I own on it.

Apple provided an integrated solution that works...all of the time so far.

SanDisk not the first to approach Rockbox

[ZipR]

Neuros has chatted with the Rockbox developers too, last fall: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/NonArch os#Upcoming_Models

Re:SanDisk not the first to approach Rockbox

[HardCase]

Unfortunately, it will probably go the same way as the Neuros I and II - everything is DSP-based and since TI charges a hideous amount of money for the development environment, nothing will come of it. Of course, the Neuros has always been a day late and a dollar short. I've got both a Neuros I and a Neuros II. In both cases, their advertising catchphrase should have been "Great ideas, poorly executed".

-h-

Re:SanDisk not the first to approach Rockbox

[DarkkOne]

The interesting thing is that the Sandisk e200 line is PortalPlayer based. In fact, a decent bit of existing Rockbox code can be used in the port if it does ensue.

Creative's Products

[Anonymous Coward]

Here is the link

http://www.nomadworld.com/products/

To list all of creative's products. Which one is right for you? A rough count gives me about 30 products + accessories.

Yes they are.

[Andy Dodd]

The SanDisk units do not use mechanical hard drives, but use solid state flash memory. Thus their direct competitor is the iPod nano, Apple's solid-state player.

iPod nano 2GB - $199
iPod nano 4GB - $249
iPod nano 6GB - does not exist
The 2 and 4 GB SanDisk variants are $20 cheaper. Not sure how they compare on features, but in terms of price per GB, the SanDisks beat the iPod nano.

Insult me, please!

[Colonel Angus]

I own an iPod. I didn't buy the iPod because I saw other "cool" people using it. I didn't buy it because I saw commercials with dancing silhouettes sporting white earbuds.

I bought the iPod because I have a massive collection of music that I wanted to carry around with me.

What does Sandisk have to offer? 6GB max? I've got 30GB of space in my iPod. I have fit all of my all-time favourite pieces on it. It doesn't contain every mp3 I have, but I'm not too sad that "I've Got A Boner For You" by the Teen Angels didn't make it on there.

There's not even a price advantage for choosing Sandisk over Apple.

At Future Shop here in Canada, a 30GB iPod Video can be bought for $379.99.

I can't find the 6GB player in Future Shop's page, but a 4GB Sandisk Sansa e260 will set you back $299.99.

So, IMHO, your pricing is *WAY* off. Your storage capabilities are minimal, at least relative to my desires and compared to iPods. And to top it off you choose to insult me (and others) for choosing an iPod over your Sansa? I'll remember that when I'm looking for my next MP3 Player.

Re:Insult me, please!

[Anonymous Coward]

Your "massive collection of music" has just been reported to the RIAA. Thank you.

Re:Insult me, please!

[Atzanteol]

You *do* realize you're comparing an iPod with a hard drive against a SanDisk play with flash media, right? Try your comparisions against the nano and see how they fare...

Re:Insult me, please!

[pintomp3]

you do realize the sansa is flash memory? perhaps you should be comparing it to a nano. i'll spare you the insults.

Re:Insult me, please!

[Anonymous Coward]

I dunno... A couple of weeks ago I bought a Sansa e260 - cost-wise I beat the Nano pretty well (I paid $200US vs $249US for the 4GB Nano).

As for the Video iPod vs Sansa, I think you're comparing Apples to Oranges. Thte Sansa is roughly the size of a Nano (somewhat thicker than a Nano, but otherwise much smaller than the video iPod) - I think they're targetted at different audiences. If you compare the Sansa to the Nano, I think the iPod definitely gets a run for it's money (well, I thought it beat the Nano, but that's just me).

Re:Insult me, please!

[Colonel Angus]

I'm completely aware of the comparison with different storage... but my point was, albeit horribly made, was that I want an MP3 player that stores as much of my collection as possible.

So I bought the 30GB iPod.

I really couldn't care less what storage media is used on the device. I want as much space as possible for the money I'm laying down and the 30GB iPod clearly wins out over the 4GB Sansa. It's bigger than the Sansa but I'd hardly call it cumbersome.

If Sandisk is going on the offensive against iPods they will be competing with both Nanos and the hard drive versions as they were when I bought mine.

Note to SanDisk: Learn about the "Lemmings" Ad

[csoto]

Everyone remembers the "1984" spot Chiat-Day did for Apple when they introduced the Mac. Many of us, however, also remember the dreaded "Lemmings" campaign that followed. This basically called "IBM PC users" morons and flopped miserably. You don't steal your competitor's customers by calling them idiots.

I agree.... advertising had little to do with it.

[King_TJ]

I remember skipping the first 2 generations of iPods as completely irrelevant. (I already had a nice in-car MP3 playing stereo system, as well as a nice MP3 music collection on my shared LAN at home. I couldn't really grasp why I'd want to spend hundreds on the ability to take yet another copy of those same files around with me in my pocket - especially since most of my music listening happened at home or in the car.)

Then, a friend of mine actually invited me to play around with his new 3rd. gen. iPod, hands-on. I was immediately fascinated. The scroll wheel made it so easy to navigate the menus, and everything was on an easy-to-read display screen. It even had some basic PDA type functionality (contacts and calendar synching), making it more justifiable to carry around than I anticipated. Then I realized one could even boot a Mac from one of these things and use it for emergency recovery in case of a drive crash. A quick look at the available accessories for it made me realize another key point; the iPod was the industry standard! Anything you could imagine wanting to add on to a portable player was available in an iPod friendly version. They even had clock radios with iPod docks on top of them.

Then it struck me. If you can't find some use for an iPod, you're just not trying hard enough. That's the beauty in these things. Photographers can take one around as a mass storage "vault" for their digital photos, instead of juggling a handful of memory sticks or cards. In the current form, you can watch podcasts with training videos for software products like Photoshop, or just the latest comedy skit while you're on the bus or train. It can totally replace music CDs (or even CDRs full of MP3 files) in your car. Take it camping with external speakers... 21st. Century Boom-Box! Battery life is excellent and they "just work", as Apple always promises of their products.

Lazy Bas*ds

[Nom du Keyboard]

SanDisk is courting open source developers to port Rockbox to its popular MP3 players...Rockbox is an open source OS for most major MP3 players.

Hey, it's open source. Why don't you port it yourself, instead of asking someone else to do your work for you for free!!

Re:Lazy Bas*ds

[Atzanteol]

Man, if you have to ask you'll never know... I figured 'free labor' was pretty obvious.

Re:Lazy Bas*ds

[Anonymous Coward]

actually if the hardware were any good, the Rockbox guys would have done it by themselves long time ago.

There was a story about archos uses rockbox's firmware for a product (way back when rockbox was only for archos hardware).

Repeat of the PC itself

[cfoushee]

Seems to me I remember the macintosh being superior at one point too, and "cool" people were buying them left and right, then the open market alternative namely PC's built on the x86 archecticture began having success, both windows and linux, and Apple lost its major share of the market.
This ain't meant to be flaimbait but just an observation of history repeating itself.

Re:Repeat of the PC itself

[TomHandy]

The Macintosh never dominated the market or was so firmly established in the way the iPod is though, so it is a bit hard to compare the two. A lot of what helps the iPod right now is the fact that it is so widespread, and thus has a lot more than the competition in the way of third party support, third party accessories, etc. This is something the Mac never had, and thus it was always fighting the accurate perception that it was a lot easier to get a variety of hardware and software for your PC that wasn't available for the Mac.

Re:Repeat of the PC itself

[cfoushee]

I obviously don't know the percentage of mac sales versus say ibm pc's but I remember the mac being a big player at the bigging in terms of market share and it was only by influx of ibm clones that began to drive down its market share to the niche market.

Re:Repeat of the PC itself

[Anonymous Coward]

If I remember correctly the Macintosh commanded about 15% of the PC market at it's apex. A major player to be sure but hardly comparable to the current position of the iPod.

Re:Repeat of the PC itself

[Budenny]

No this is not true. Look up the article on Ars Technica, or look up the Pegasus material. Apple's share was at its peak before the Mac arrived. One day someone should write a list of great Apple myths, starting out with this one. Oh and the wonderful myth that since Jobs came back, share has increased.

Re:Repeat of the PC itself

[cfoushee]

I'm confused how apple could be at its peak before the mac arrived? I took a quick peak at arstechnica.com but didn't find anything that old in the search results.

But I did see one saying that they predict apple to be a 20 billion dollar company in 2007 and that would seem to support that since jobs came back share has increased. Maybe it didn't increase immediately but I would think if you compared it to when he was away to when we was there it would be bigger. Thats not necessarily saying he is directly responsible for it, but I suppose the data does suggest it.

Re:Repeat of the PC itself

[TomHandy]

I believe you're talking about the marketshare of the Apple II, which probably did command a pretty large share of the market at one time (certainly before IBM launched their PC). That of course has nothing to do with Mac marketshare, which was being compared to the iPod.

Re:Repeat of the PC itself

[TomHandy]

Again, it was always a niche number though. Mac marketshare wasn't always a super small number like 3-5%, but it was definitely not more than 15-20%. Again, this is why I'm saying comparing Mac marketshare to iPod marketshare doesn't make sense; the Mac was never dominant enough to really command so much control of the market as a whole (i.e. it's not like there was a time where you were doomed if you didn't have a Mac version of your software). The Mac never was in a position that the iPod is in right now. Really, the iPod's position is a lot more like IBM PCs and PC clones, frankly. Really, with the IBM PC, it was basically DOS (and later Windows) and then everything else. You certainly had some niche players doing interesting things with their own loyal followings (Mac, Amiga, Atari, Commodore, etc.) but if you wanted to get the platform that most people were using, it was an IBM PC (or a clone). This is sort of the position the iPod has found itself in. It's certainly not a monopoly, and there are other players out there who are having varying degrees of success (and of course, given MS's power, you can never count them out....... this is part of where the analogy breaks down, as the IBM PC and clones never had a rival with the kind of power MS does). The iPod has sort of gotten to a point where it is actually really difficult to compete with, no matter WHAT you do. You could have someone come out with a better mp3 player technically (just as you had alternative OS's like DR-DOS which were better than MS-DOS), but it is less relevant now. You would need to do something extraordinary to get people as a whole to think of another player in the same way they think of the iPod. Again, it's not that there aren't good rival players out there; there are..... but none of them really have the overall mindshare that the iPod does. Generally speaking, so many people just fundamentally know about the iPod now, it is a lot like something like the Walkman. It's just such an engrained brand that it automatically has a leg-up on any competitor now. This is not to say that the iPod is bad, or that DOS or Windows were bad........ but the reality is, when you do get this kind of position in the market, where most anyone could probably tell you what an iPod was whether they liked it or not, but could probably not rattle off the individual mp3 players from Creative, Toshiba, SanDisk, Samsung, etc. etc..... that is a lot to overcome.

Re:Repeat of the PC itself

[2nd Post!]

I wouldn't say history has repeated itself until the iPod goes down. If there is anything that is repeating, it is how Apple is dominanting to become the 800lb gorilla in the same way Microsoft did:

iPod::Apple
Windows::Microsoft

The funny part is this:
Mac::Apple
XBox::Microsoft

So their fortunes are reversed; Microsoft was able to successfully dominate the PC world, where Apple could not, while Apple is successfully dominating the consumer eletronics market where Microsoft does not.

I love my sansa

[SCHecklerX]

And it would be very cool to be able to re-write its interface and song ordering, since they don't quite fit what I want as they are. Would moving to rockbox allow this to happen? If so, this is great news!

1 - 2 - 3 Rockbox

[gspeare]

Forget the ad campaign, I want Rockbox! I use a Rio Karma (which is very nice, gapless playback, etc.), but since they stopped supporting it I have been wishing for a number of UI and functionality improvements. An open-source OS would make those a lot more likely than the current scenario...hopefully it will get ported, but otherwise when my Karma finally fails I'll be looking for a player that supports an open OS.

Attention hardware manufacturers

[mogrify]

Hardware manufacturers! I'll make this easy for you. Here's what I want:

• At least 60GB of capacity, but more if I can get it
• At least 10 hours of battery life, but more if I can get it
• A built-in FM transmitter
• Filesystem-based library (i.e. no database rebuilds necessary)
• The ability to build custom playlists on the fly
• The ability to play whatever I want, in whatever format I want, but especially Ogg, FLAC, and Speex
• Open-source firmware

I don't care about video. I mean seriously, it's a 2.5 inch screen. And I want to pay $200. So you have your assignment now.

Go.

Re:Attention hardware manufacturers

[protohiro1]

Sorry, we aren't going to make that. Love, The manufacturers

Re:Attention hardware manufacturers

[mogrify]

K, then I won't buy anything. Love, 6 billion humans.

Re:Attention hardware manufacturers

[dook43]

Man, I sure do love projecting my needs and wants on the entire human community! Love, Mogrify

Re:Attention hardware manufacturers

[Blakey Rat]

All that for $200? Good thing you didn't specify size; that thing'll be at least brick-sized.

Also, what the holy hell is "speex?" I know a lot of obscure file format, but I have to admit I've never come across that one before.

Re:Attention hardware manufacturers

[pintomp3]

i recently swapped the harddrive in my iriver h140 for a 60gb hard drive. as it stands, it has all the features you asked except built in fm transmitter, it has an fm reciever though and optical in/out. and the batter life is about 16hrs. rockbox makes a lot of things possible, but it's good to start with decent hardware.

Re:Attention hardware manufacturers

[Molz]

Quite a few personalities you have there. Six billion? You must be a fun date.

Re:Attention hardware manufacturers

[2nd Post!]

Two serious questions:

1) Why would the above described device outsell the iPod?
2) How would the manufacturers make a profit?

To get a 60GB drive below $200 requires the use of a laptop 2.5" HDD and immediately HUGE compared to an iPod of comparable capacity and battery life.

Re:Attention hardware manufacturers

[mogrify]

If I wish really, really hard, it'll all work out. You know, idealism.

Seriously, though, I'd plunk down, oh, say $500 for this and never look back.

Re:Attention hardware manufacturers

[mogrify]

Yeah, but you'd buy it. C'mon, you know you would.

Re:Attention hardware manufacturers

[mogrify]

http://www.speex.org/

It's like Ogg for speech instead of music. I use it for audiobooks and such, but I can't take it with me yet.

Re:Attention hardware manufacturers

[k8to]

As I'm sure google has told you by now, speex is an openly developed, hopefully patent-avoiding, streaming speech codec designed for network and file purposes (as opposed to channel). You can compare it with codecs currently used for cell phone telephony, apple audiobook, network telephony (vonage, skype), and so on.

On paper it appears to be the best quality per size codec. To the ear, however, skype seems to usually win. Speex is completely open however, which matters to some, such as me. After the project was already underway, it began to cooperate with the larger xiph/ogg group of codecs.

Re:Attention hardware manufacturers

[mrchaotica]

Speaking of network telephony, has anyone tried building a system using Speex over Jabber yet?

Re:Attention hardware manufacturers

[dook43]

No, I wouldn't, but that's only because I have no use for portable music players due to my sitting in front of computers at all times where i would need music. I listen to sports talk radio in the car, so no need there.

What Q3 mod do you play? I was extremely active in OSP CTF for a number of years (2000-2002).

Re:Attention hardware manufacturers

[mogrify]

Plain vanilla Q3. But not much on public servers, these days. Still the best game ever made, though.

Re:Attention hardware manufacturers

[toddestan]

Given your requirements, I suggest you get an old PII computer (free), put a 60GB drive in it ($50), install Linux (free), get one of those FM transmitters and glue it to the case ($25), and spend the rest on stack of lead acid batteries in an attempt to get it to run 10 hours unplugged from the wall. You can probably get an old Radio Flyer at a garage sale to haul it around with. If you are resourceful enough, you might be able to pull it off for $200.

not an illusion

[AlgorithMan]

to create the illusion of a 'counter-culture uprising against the iPod'

this is not an illusion! this is reality: www.DefectiveByDesign.org

Is it any good?

[Anonymous Coward]

Support for MP3, Ogg Vorbis, AC3, AAC, Musepack, Midi, AIFF, ALAC, FLAC, Shorten, WAV, and Wavpack

That's pretty darn good. It even supports MPC, which I think I may be one of the few who actually uses it. I wish it could support APE too, but I'm really happy that my library of portable music is now effecitvely doubled thanks to all the support. BUT, is it any good? Anyone who has tried it out have any qualms about audio quality, playback? The way they've worded somethings I get the suspicion there's some stuttering or some such problem.

You aren't THAT old...

[Chas]

"Culture" has been marketing-driven longer than you've been alive.

If you think art, music, etc in current "cultural" circles gets there solely on it's own merit...

Well, let's just say you should be doing stand-up...

How About Someone Actually BEAT the iPod?!!!

[Einstein_101]

You know what would really kill the iPod? A better product! iPod has one heck of a marketing campaign, but let's face it that isn't the only reason for it's sucess. I'm a techie just like most of you, and I'm borderline anti-Apple. I been wanting an mp3 player for a while now. After about 18 months of researching it, I went with the iPod for numerous reasons.

1)It has by far the most accesories of any portable player.

2)It's by far the thinnest of any Mp3 player. The closest resemblace to the iPod is the Samsung Z5. The only problem is the 4Gb Z5 isn't much smaller than my 30Gb video iPod.

3)Quality. Before video was a factor, the only serious competitor to iPod was the Creative Zen Sleek. I'm glad I didn't get one. It started out nice, but let's just say it wasn't built for durability. Consumers were posting all over the net (it should still be on CNet and Amazon) about rattling noises. It seems that the earphones jack wasn't soildered properly, and thousands of people where having problems about it comming loose and falling inside the player. That's a great way to steer people away from Apple.

But it wasn't only hardware quality that was in question. The "Plays For Sure" nonsense was wreaking havok, and several people weren't able to install the software on Windows 2000. If that wasn't bad enough, the people that COULD install the player complained about being forced to keep the songs on their harddrive (no manual update like the one present in iTunes).

Now before I hear any of the usual iPod propaganda, let me dispell some of the most common rumors:

1)You do NOT have to purchase music from iTunes. It sounds obvious, but I actually heard a saleman in Radio Shack tell someone that the only way to get music in the iPod was to buy it. You would think he was just trying to sell more pre-paid cards for iTunes, but once I spoke with him, he actually didn't know. As a matter of fact, you don't even have to use iTunes at all.

(Disclaimer: I must warn you that I've heard stories of 3rd party software corrupting iTunes.db. It works fine with everything else, but once iTunes detects the .db file has been edited by a 3rd party, it might not recognize the file anymore.)

2) You do not have to buy QuickTime Pro to import movies. That was true once upon a time, that was changed in iTunes 6.02. However, iTunes is still slow, and neither iTunes or QuickTime can encode muxed videoes with audio, so you're better off using a free alternative.

3)There is an easy way to get your music back off of your iPod, but it isn't free.

Let's face it people : The iPod isn't perfect by anyone's standards, but it's the best player on the market by a landslide. If you want to bring Apple's domination of the mp3 market to a halt - give it some decent competition. Creative started now, so hopefully after a few years they'll have all the kinks ironed out. Until then, I can't recommend anything else.

Re:NEWS FLASH: iPod "Killer" Product/Campaign Laun

[Anonymous Coward]

Get a job and quit polluting the internet with your bullshit FAG!!!

Oh goody, another phony attack -nothing tabgible

[misterhypno]

So 90-plus percent of mp3 player owners use iPods. Of the other brands, several aren't iTunes compatible (thus bucking what has become a de facto industry standard - regardless of how you look at it - the numbers speak for themselves).

Now SanDisk comes along and talks about sheep and the like, but doesn't mention anything about whether or not one can download from the biggest music site online in their ads.

And, so far, on the top levels of this discussion, no one else has, either and I frankly don't have the time to drill down through unteen layers of posts to find out, nor do I particularly want to go to a web site that insults people.

So, SanDisk, the big question is - how DO you want to be perceived in the market - as a company who insults the very market you are trying to woo away from the majority market-share holder, or a company who will actually inform a potential customer about what your vaunted product will - and won't - do?

As a potential customer, I want to know and I don't give a damn about sheep, corporate culture or whether my player is cool or not. I just want to know that I can get and play my tunes from the widest available sources on the market.

If I can't to that, then I have no use for your product.

Lee Darrow, C.H.

RockBox desktop?

[m874t232]

For better or for worse, iPod is probably so enormously popular because of iTunes, in particular playlist synchronization, smart playlists, the iTunes store, and podcasts. Furthermore, people get all that functionality bundled in a single app (which is kind of necessary in order to make synchronization work smoothly).

What's the desktop integration story with RockBox? Does RockBox emulate USB storage when plugged in? What support is there for playlist synchronization? I think without a good desktop tool, RockBox may be a threat to other MP3 players, but not iPod.

Re:RockBox desktop?

[DarkkOne]

How is it a threat to anything? Rockbox goes on your DAP, and it gets new features... pretty simple. In fact, Rockbox has influenced more than a few people to buy iPods now that they get wider format support, and don't have to use iTunes. Of course, if you want iTunes, that's fine. And if you want the original retail operating system that's fine too. There's a handy saying "If it aint broke, don't fix it." If what you have does what you need, there's absolutely no argument for you to use our software. Rockbox has its own database formwat. You put music on there however you want, it scans in the background, indexes by tags. Right now the features been disabled (due to the move to a new database created on-DAP instead of solely on computer) but Rockbox had features very similar to iPods smart playlists, and they'll most likely improve beyond them once they're reintegrated. All Rockbox'ed players so far are able to be used as USB mass storage devices, and of course since our database format is open source plugins can always be readibly adapted for various media management tools to allow integration if they want to.

iBaaa...

[davido42]

... and iLazy therefore iBuy iPod.

http://www.bitworksmusic.com/

Mathematics 101 (Sponsored by Einstein)

[Einstein_101]

The largest capacity microSD card in existance is 2Gb, and it won't be released until late 2006. $250 for the player, and another $45 for the microSD card (and that's just the 1Gb model. I'm at the cost of the iPod already, and still at less than half of the space it takes to hold the 4,500 songs on my iPod.

No Thanks.

If you are to read one post, pick this one!

[dafing]

Hey guys,

Whats with us, I thought /. was for nerds? How come every discussion of the iPod, which is still every other day, we have the same arguements. Again and again. And again.

Examples like "iPod locks you to iTunes music store/iTunes the program", and that "iPods can actually play many open formats, like mp3......." etc? God, its 2006, "the consumers still pissed, can't take it anymore so i'm writing a list...", how so many of us dont know what the iPod CAN and CAN'T do?

I love my iPod dearly, wouldnt part with it for 10K, still rocking on my 15GB 3G, with like 2 hours of battery life.

Sooner or later, Apple will kneel

[Anonymous Coward]

...before the throne of open source

Propriety models are an archaic throwback.

Open source / systems are the future.

Hey Steve, if Apple is truly "innovative" and forward-leaning, then learn this lesson now. Open source does not mean fortunes can't be amassed for greedy execs and shareholders...and we all know that's the first love of the MS / Apple duopoly anyway.

Open models are just the poe poe at the doe doe, which the crackheads wish would just go away.

I'm Mo'Blogging this.

[delire]

From where I sit, I welcome the competition.

It's rush-hour on a Friday night. The train carriage I'm in has an odourous ambience of smug techno-arianism and revolting self-ordained hipness. I look over either shoulder and realise the source of my discomfort. All my fellow passengers have little or no surface features. To put it more clearly, they are in fact all silhouettes striking obtuse dance poses in what appear to be exaggerated representations of a person enjoying music in the privacy of their own home... the entire carriage is full of 2-Dimensional Private Dancers..

One of these creatures hands me a single white earpiece and says something like "Do you feel it?". I hear what appears to be RadioHead's "Ok Computer" coming from the earpiece. Barely suppressing a sudden onset of nausea, I sidle away. I reach into my pocket and crank up an Ogg Vorbis rip of New Order's 'Bizarre Love Triange' on my iAudio and breathe deeply.. i'm going to make it. Down the other end of the carriage I make eye contact with the only other three-dimensional being on board. She smiles nervously and points to her Sony Discman..

SanDisk, Bring The Humans Back.

Re:I'm Mo'Blogging this.

[jb.hl.com]

That's a mighty fine post you made there...all it's missing is a point.

Re:I'm Mo'Blogging this.

[2nd Post!]

Too bad you are every bit as an elitist as the Mac users and iPod owners are portrayed to be. Were it not for your choice of iAudio, your rant would fit in perfectly with all the Mac users decrying the Windows monopoly.

I too wish competition; competition makes everything better, and if I happen to prefer Apple, so what? If the rise of Sandisk forces Apple to create a superior MP3 player, would you complain? It is only unfortunate that you see the world in as defensive a manner as your dyed in the wool Mac user. You should look them up, I'm sure you would sympathize with their crusade against the faceless drones who use Windows.

Why didn't iThink of iChimp and iPuppet

[cannuck]

Why didn't iThink of iChimp and iPuppet. How iTelligent!

Hmm.

[Nekomusume]

I hope they pull it off, iPods need some real competition. If only because they look so bloody boring.

iAudio like?

[alexandre]

It's hard to find an mp3 player:

- With the codec supports for mp3, wav, ogg, flac! (iAudio ...).
- A standard AA battery or two so it's useful while travelling and easy to change.
- High output to drive circumaural headphones.
- A big screen in a small factor (the Clix sounded like a good start, anyone tried the GUI? Too bad it seems to have an annoying interface to u/l files and that the cie. stopped it's mp3 only division...)
- Open standard and design (Drag & drop in a folder, USB mass storage, interoperate with other USB stuff. name it? Rockbox?)
- A reasonable price for the amount of memory in it... (I still see 512MB players for 100$? wtf?)
- Some gizmo like FM & recording, text reading, photo viewing, clock, lyrics, (video?), intelligent functions (playlist?), etc.

Sandisk Suck so does the Add Campaign

[Stevecrox]

Apple has had an impressive marketing strategy, they produced something that was easy to use, intuative and more importatnly distinctive. People latched on to it, most MP3 players of the time sucked I know mine did. As such they grew in the geek community and overspilled into the 'mainstream' communtiy. People saw them as small easy to use expensive things which were easily recognisable. I've not seen every Mp3 player out there, but a fair few as friends and family buy Ipod clones and can't figure out the fifteen step guide needed to get music on them. The joke is, I usually put Itunes on for them explain how it works and get them to treat it as a portable drive.

The only company which in my eyes had provided somethign comparable is Microsoft (shock horror saying nice things about M$!) WMP10 and Mobile 2003's WMP10 worked quite nicely together and wern't to hard to get. However seeing WMP11 and Mobiles 2003's WMP10 is something comparable to Itunes and the Ipod. But it will never replace either as it isn't a complete solution a just some smart software for your PC and PDA.

Sandisk products generally suck I've owned alot of Flash/SD/MMC/Reduced SD cards the only ones that have ever broke are the San disk ones, and since their support sucks a treat.... I'm guessing their MP3 player is similar over difficult to use full of unnecessary information and with dire support. If they came up with a clever campaign and had a decent support service, reasonable device and on top of that were able to keep it simple. Then they might stand a chance.

Re:Note to SanDisk: Learn about the "Lemmings" Ad

[dafing]

Hey, I disagree about Lemmings, I am not old enough, nor in the right country to have remembered it, but I have downloaded it recently, I think it failed because it just plain sucked. What really happens in it? Huge line walks about, shit quality music plays (sign of the time, compression related), they fall off into nothing, guy takes a blindfold off and............wow, it cost how much?

Work wonders for SONY

[acomj]

It did wonders for the PSP

http://www.plocp.com/user/aramc//nyc_december_2005 /images/_MG_7058.jpg
http://www.plocp.com/user/aramc//nyc_december_2005 /images/_MG_6743.jpg

Re:How About Someone Actually BEAT the iPod?!!!

[Dragoonmac]

yamiPod can play, rename, and retransfer music off of an iPod for free.
http://yamipod.com/

Interesting... but going nowhere

[cavemanf16]

Look, the SanDisk MP3 player is just like all the other non-iPod players: it doesn't have a "scrollwheel" hardware UI. This is absolutely the #1 reason why the iPod is winning. Someone at Apple caught on to the simple fact a while ago that a simplistic dial is a better interface to "dial-in" your next mp3 or playlist for listening, just like the original transistor radios had a simple knob controlling the mechanical pot that adjusted the frequency of the radio - thereby changing what music you listened to.

I am currently working on a senior project where we're hacking away at Rockbox code, and we've tried several different mp3 players and they all suck for actual mp3 playing goodness compared to an iPod simply because of the means of hardware UI. Navigation buttons just don't cut it.

IMHO, this whole idea is dead in the water for SanDisk until they can pry the whole "scrollwheel" idea out of trademark (or copyright) hell. (I forget which type of laws that innovation falls under at the moment.) Apple will continue to have their government approved monopoly on the iPod scrollwheel, and will continue to profit heavily from it, which, for once, is how it's supposed to be. (Not that I'm an Apple fanboy, I'm just saying that this is what trademarks and copyright are intended to do, in general.)

Re:Interesting... but going nowhere

[zivan56]

If you took a moment to do a Google search of the player in question, the Sandisk Sansa e200, you will see that it does in fact have a scroll wheel. Nice rant though...

wow...

[Anonymous Coward]

I've known about rockbox for a while and even seriously considered holding on to the Sansa e250 (or was that 260? It was the 2GB model whichever number that was) that I was unsatisfied with just in the hopes that rockbox would later be available for the e2x0 series. In the end, I decided it was too unlikely I would see a port within a reasonable period of time to be worth it. Now sandisk is talking about supporting it out of the box with future players? All I can say is if this is true then I may learn to regret buying the cowon u3 I got after I sent the sansa back because rockbox would be VERY nice indeed.

Supporting an opensource thing like that in a mp3 player would be the smartest move someone who hopes to compete with apple could make. Even the usual argument of how hard a player is to work with versus the itunes + ipod combo wouldn't hold up so well because with support for opensource software like that, people can design simpler programs for things like MTP.

Sorry SanDisk

[Frobozz0]

Sorry SanDisk, but fighting Apple at it's own game is an utter and completely useless endeavor to which you will sink money and time for little reward. It'll be fun to watch ... but the blood bath of corporate heads rolling after this "*fight" will be seen for miles.

* I call this a fight only in the most technical of senses. It's more of a one sided ass handing.

To say anyone could beat Apple at it's own game is to say someone could out-Grinch Bill Gates. It just ain't gonna happen. Look around. Some people are the alphas, and some hurl shit and harvest fruits and berries. You're the latter.

- steve jobs

'iDont' should really try thinking 'iShould'...

[ErnstKompressor]

and what if you were one of the folks who bought one of the first million iPods... are you still a sheep or are you a shepard?

More importantly, why does anyone care if someone is a sheep? Go mind your own fucking business... ...oh, that's right... your business sucks...

Notes to Stevareno

[bdwoolman]

No, Steve, I don't want your candy-coated DRM. I'm a Yepp man. Yepp, yepp, yepp. What is it you said: "Rip, Mix, Earn...." It sure is a purty thang, but to me it will always be an iPud. Unghhhh!

MP3 Players are for sheep.

[Masterwanker]

MP3 Players are for sheep. LONG LIVE THE CD! But in all seriousness I despise both companies and admire them in a strange way. I despise them both for selling emotion and status rather then an media player. But I also admire them for the same reason. They have managed to make the sheep think they need an mp3 player preferable their brand. Yes they are sheep. they didn't need an iPod to make them that So should we praise them for their control over the morons or despise them for it?

Re:MP3 Players are for sheep.

[JAppi]

You mean long live Vinyl, dont' you?

Re:open source vs. single license locked itunes fi

[2nd Post!]

Yes, but MP3 and AAC are not iTunes or Apple proprietary formats. The original poster was complaining about iTunes proprietary formats. If I am not mistaken, the PSP, PS3, XBox360, and other devices also play AAC as well as MP3.

Fickel teens

[Anonymous Coward]

This could be a good marketing ploy but i doubt its needed. When Ipod came out it really was way better than everything else...now...not so much. I think among the fickel teen market, this may work quite well since for some reason things are cool until everyone has one...and once thats happened its not cool anymore. Kids are fickel, eventually the cool kids will need to find a music player that they think better "defines themself as a person". Not the player even the "uncool" kids use (slashdot readers...yeah...me too..) Sure it makes no damn sense, it doesnt make any sense to pay 50 dollars for a t-shirt with holes in it eaither, but with good enough marketing companys do it all the time. I guess to sum things up, remember when sony walkmen were "da bomb"?

Re:I agree.... advertising had little to do with i

[hobbit]

Then it struck me. If you can't find some use for an iPod, you're just not trying hard enough.

You must be beloved of marketing types! Personally, I don't try to find a use for things; I try to find things for a use.

Re:NEWS FLASH: iPod "Killer" Product/Campaign Laun

[Anonymous Coward]

...not that you're all defensive or anything.

BTW, the company that makes the music player is SanDisk.

The "i" stands for

[themadplasterer]

The "i" stands for all the income that Apple shareholders are making

Re:open source vs. single license locked itunes fi

[k8to]

Don't cloud the waters.

AAC and MP3 are patent encumbered, but openly specified formats. FairPlay is not openly specified. There is a difference. This doesn't make what you said wrong, but it points out that you're being disingenuous.

Hmmm

[goldcd]

I really don't want to like my iPod. I loathe having stuff tied into iTunes.
But it just all kind of works - easilyish (well more easily than the alternatives).
The iPod is really rather a lovely bit of technical design...
...and now I've bought m4p music - I have to keep buying iPods into the future....


*over a barrel face*

*grits teeth and takes it*

Yup

[goldcd]

ex-flatmate was a journalist and brought home an iPod pre-release.
The one and only Apple product ever that make my jaw drop and fill my heart with desire.
"I can fit albums on there? Many Many albums? On a little box that goes in my pocket!!!"

It's nothing cultural

[goldcd]

there's an awful lot of people looking to get away from iDRM
I've bought music from iTunes. If I stop buying iPods between now and the end of my life, I've got to either lose that music on the go, or re-buy it (and add that cost to replacing my iPod).
The MS system isn't as slick - but at least I know I'll have more choices of vendors to buy from in the future (who might actually try to compete with each other) and sooner of later one of them is going to produce something much better than the iPod of that time.

Re:It's nothing cultural

[mrchaotica]

but at least I know I'll have more choices of vendors to buy from in the future (who might actually try to compete with each other) and sooner of later one of them is going to produce something much better than the iPod of that time.

No, you don't know that. I mean, it hasn't happened so far, has it?

Face it: you're still just as locked in with "Plays For Sure [sic]" as you are with "FairPlay [sic]." The only good DRM is no DRM at all.

yup

[goldcd]

much as I hate to - I agree with you.
You have itunes and an ipod and you can buy music.
Want a better music player, go to apple.com, pick one you can afford and slam it in your cradle - you're away!

On the other hand defending this ease of use (well laziness) over competition is exactly what Mac zealots complain about keeping XP as the dominant OS.

If chosing 30GB over 6GB makes me a sheep

[unassimilatible]

Then call me a sheep.

Sansa(TM) e270 MP3 Player 6GB: $279.99.

APPLE iPod Black 30GB: $279.99

Baaahhhh!

Re:If chosing 30GB over 6GB makes me a sheep

[DrEldarion]

You're comparing apples to oranges. The e270 is more comparable to the iPod Nano than to a regular iPod.

Re:If chosing 30GB over 6GB makes me a sheep

[Xenna]

But what if you want more than 6GB to store your collection on? I have an iRiver H40 (with Rockbox) that I like a lot, but iRiver stopped making players >10 GB. If you need a lot of space you don't have much choice these days...

Re:If chosing 30GB over 6GB makes me a sheep

[Fred_A]

True, my H320 recently got stolen and the Apple players while having a better design are really short on features. However when browsing the current offering I was surprised to see that not only the H300 series had been dropped, but that there weren't really any equivalent products. The lower end of features for me would be something with at least 20GiB capacity, acting as mass storage, with a USB *host* feture (to dump photos in), an FM radio, MP3 and if possible OGG support (I never used WMA and other such formats and don't plan to, I rip my own CDs).
So far I'm considering the Cowon (also branded as iAudio) A2. A bit more pricey than the H300 unfortunately but also acts as a movie player. :(

It will backfire and fail miserably

[Anonymous Coward]

This sounds like the old Apple commercial that had all the PC users as lemmings jumping off the cliff.

It just alienates those that they're trying to switch over. iPod users will feel offended and won't want to switch. Your average joe consumer probably won't switch just because some commercial is making fun of the iPod.

They're just preaching to the choir. Those that were already against iPod will buy this and those that are for the iPod will stick with their iPods even more fervently and those in the middle simply won't care.

Re:It will backfire and fail miserably

[cnerd2025]

I agree. I personally love my iPod because it works like I want it to, it plays my music, it is simple, and I think it is possibly one of the best quality MP3 players on the market. I've never had a problem with battery life, performance, or some other "problems" that the loud anti-iPod Bolshevik complain about. I actually now listen to more of the music I like and have a more diverse music collection because of my iPod. There is no doubt that it has expanded my cultural, artistic, and entertainment tastes. My iPod challenged me to consider Mac as a viable operating system (having been for years a Windoze Borg drone) and now I'm working on yours truly (I have Linux and Mac installed). If my iPod broke tomorrow, I'd kindly send a letter to Apple explaining that in the future I might not be so forgiving and vote with my wallet. If they sent me a new iPod and it broke again, I'd buy another mp3 player. If they didn't send me a new iPod, I'd buy another mp3 player. If it worked, I'd keep it. Ideological fights in this vein are ill-conceived because they are entirely hypocritical. What is SanDisk saying, "leave that collective to join our collective!"? If I wanted to be screamed at, I'd watch Dr. Phil. Fortunately, SanDisk apparently demonstrated they don't really want my money (even though an iChimp's buck spends the same as Sans Shoes Hippie Joe's; there just happen to be more, wealthier iChimps than Sans Shoes Hippie Joes).

Now I'm waiting for auto advertisements from cheap Asian car companies calling BMW and Mercedes-Benz drivers krauts or something. Like the Beemers and Benz's, people like the iPod's sexiness. They also like the simplicity and the "joy" of using it. Sure, it costs more, but why do people buy Milan when they could get Ralph Lauren? Apple has developed a good brand and has loyal user base. However, Apple is smart and has realized that the "brand loyalty" trend is dropping. People aren't as loyal as they used to be. return (innovation());

How do we know it's not astroturf?

[Anonymous Coward]

In addition to the sibling responses, how can this be moderated informative when it offers no citation? In a discussion filled with accusations of "sheep", you'd think we wouldn't promote unsubstantiated claims.

What sucks is the "about" link on anythingbutipod.com http://www.anythingbutipod.com/archives/2005/01/ab out-anything-but-ipod.php doesn't even state who owns and operates the site. Ironically, the first Google ad on the page is for "free iPod Nano". Man, AdWords are always good for a laugh.

Anyway, who owns anythingbutipod.com and who pays to keep it on the Web?

Re:How do we know it's not astroturf?

[makomk]

From whois:

Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: ANYTHINGBUTIPOD.COM
Created on: 16-Apr-05
Expires on: 16-Apr-07
Last Updated on: 07-Jul-05

Registrant is EnzoTen.com (dead end). It's fairly easy to track down the actual website of the person listed as administrative/technical contact, but not particularly enlightening. The site doesn't seem to be linked to SanDisk in any way, though.

Re:open source vs. single license locked itunes fi

[mrchaotica]

Good luck with that. I support Apple because I hate DRM, and believe that if Apple loses it means Microsoft (and therefore "Plays For Sure [sic]") wins. Since Microsoft DRM is worse than Apple DRM, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

That still doesn't mean there's any way in Hell I'd ever consider buying music from iTMS, or fail to discourage anyone else from doing so.

Re:I agree.... advertising had little to do with i

[King_TJ]

If you never try to discover how an apparently popular product could possibly do something for you, then I'd say you're simply missing out on opportunities to make your life easier or better.

Sometimes, people solve problems you never even thought about enough to say "I need a solution for this!"

It's the marketer's job to try to convince you to buy a product. It's yours to determine if that's really a good idea or not. It hardly makes me "beloved" by marketing types to look at a new product and consider the ways it might be beneficial to me. More often than not, I can't really come up with any - or can only come up with a use that's so marginally useful, it doesn't justify the cost.

With the iPod, it has a plethora of possible benefits - and I was surprised at how many of the possibilites could apply to me, all with one device. That's all I'm saying.

Sandisk are one hell of a bunch of sneaky bastards

[undeaf]

They're not trying very hard to win over ipod users by insulting them. Something they definitly are trying is to seize the rest of the market(even if they are also trying to win over a small number of ipod users), the ads are intended to appeal to all those who already think ipod users are sheep.

Other mp3 player manufacturers should retaliate against this and mock sandisk's campaign, especially considering that sandisk already has the second largest mp3 player marketshare. Something along the lines of "note to sandisk, you're not 'the alternative' to apple, we've been making mp3 players long before you, or apple, jumped on the bandwaggon. Where'd you get the retarded idea that there's one alternative that's for everyone anyway?" Ipod users would probably like that, the ads would be insulting the company that's insulting them.

Re:open source vs. single license locked itunes fi

[Craig Davison]

Get Ephpod for Windows, or gtkpod for Linux.

SanDisk Is Totally Down For Your Awesome Subcultur

[quickbrownfox]

Kind of reminds me of this

Hoping Apple would copy Rockbox...

[FauxReal]

I have a 4th and a 5th gen iPod, having one on hand is very useful for deejaying. I can have tunes that are hard/expensive/impossible to find on vinyl. One drawback is there's no way to beatmatch/mix out of track to one on an ipod.

Rockbox has a pitch control function designed to more or less mimic the function of a Technics 1200 turntable. The only problem with Rockbox is that it's a little buggy and hiccups the music when accessing a large track/artist/album listing. Minor issues are, the default skin is hard to view, though there are others out there that work well, but require patching if you want to view album covers.

If apple copied the interface I'd expect them to do it in a easier to use and more functional way.

Re:I agree.... advertising had little to do with i

[lidocaineus]

SYNCing not SYNCHING. You sync stuff, you don't synch (cinch) it.

Whats with all the apples..

[mkw87]

Whats with all the Apple stories lately? They are outweighing the Google stories and I'm beginning to become confused as to who I should support and who I should bash.

iPod = Mercedes Benz Feeling

[Anonymous Coward]

iPod is not only cleverly marketed, but it also has this "special user experience" property: using an iPod has a similar feel as driving a Mercedes Benz, wearing a Versace, etc.

It's not just advertizing, the product just feels perfect. If iPod will be in a Museum 200 years later, the visitors will probably look at it almost as a piece of art.

absolutely

[goldcd]

I'm with you to a point. If you buy a CD, you're locked into a company that's paid Philips a licensing fee for the technology. It's just that the fee is so low and the market penetration is so wide that it's not something you need to even consider any more.
If you buy something on Fairplay you're stuck with Apple (and with the single hobbled Motorola implementation aside, you're going to be stuck with them forever).
With Plays for Sure you're still hobbled - just less hobbled.
I'm not saying I like either DRM implementation, I'm just saying that one seems to be better than the other.

Re:absolutely

[mrchaotica]

If you buy a CD, you're locked into a company that's paid Philips a licensing fee for the technology.

Huh? I'm talking about "lock-in" in the sense of restrictions on what you can do with the media. There aren't any restrictions on a CD (unless it's got some kind of copy protection on it, in which case it most likely doesn't adhere to the standard and shouldn't be allowed to be called a "CD" at all).

Meh

[Anonymous Coward]

Great, so instead of targetting a cheap and obvious product at the iPod, they're tossing a cheap and obvious campaign at the iPod. How dull. iPod has become more than just a product - even if they can't afford one, or have a technological need (WMA or something) for a different device, an iPod is seen as the aspiration.

It's like berating someone for fantasising about owning a Ferrari, saying that this Chevy over here is even better, because it has more doors and a bigger trunk. They may be completely be aware that (ignoring the price of the Ferrari) a family car is what they really need, but after being berated, they're likely to turn around and buy a Ford or Chrysler or something else that is specifically not a Chevy.

They're going to have to be careful - there is a list of anti-iPod things on their site, such as battery issues. They may all be true, maybe not. But any company can come across a technical or QA issue. Thing is, now their clever little list means that they can never have a single one, EVER.

Re:I agree.... advertising had little to do with i

[hobbit]

Good point, well made. But for me, the cost of an iPod has never justified its utility -- I pretty much always carry my laptop so many of the ways in which an iPod could be useful are already taken care of, and my phone acts as an MP3 player (which could do podcast video if I wanted it) for when I'm on the move.