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Mozilla Partners with Real Networks
engineer_uhg writes to tell us that Mozilla has just entered into a multi-year agreement with Real Networks to have Firefox distributed with downloads of RealPlayer, Rhapsody, and RealArcade. The Mozilla team cited Real's estimated 2 million downloads per day as a great tool for distribution. However, many Firefox supporters question the move, complaining of questionable practices by Real.
Ewwww.
While I certainly wish Mozilla the best of luck in ramping up the distribution of their products, I wish they'd picked a better net citizen to accomplish that goal.
We don't have to get RealPlayer or any of Reals other crap crammed down our collective throats with our FireFox downloads, i don't care what they do.
~Mozleron
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups
...bundled Real spyware...
I keep tryi.... *buffering*.... ng to read.... *buffering*.... the story...
I already use Opera over Firefox because of, among many other things, the excessive memory footprint of Firefox. I don't think bundling it with bloated software like RealPlayer is the best way to improve that perception or problem.
The article seemed to indicate that Real player = Mozilla but Mozilla != Real Player, which would be the right move IMO.
FanFictionRecs.net
The reason RealPlayer has 2 million downloads per day? Because people download it, install it, use it for what they need... then get it hell off their machine! RealPlayer is worse than a virus! Mozilla, why?! That's like partnering with cocaine dealers because they distribute to 2 million people a day. Ughhh! I feel DIRTY!
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
Their questionable practices, eh? I'm not sure I see anything wrong with this. It seems like just another way to gain share. I wish there was a link to the complaints.
That understates the reaction quite a bit. Real is one of the worst things to hit the Internet since AOL, IMHO
Bundled downloads suck, especially for people with slow internet connections.
Just give me what I requested, don't add a bunch of crap to the download that I don't need or want. Does Mozilla want Firefox to become "That crappy browser that came with the music player"?
...a partnership with the government of Nigeria.
Opera will tout itself as a new standard as the preferred Acid 2 compliant browser of 419 scammers.
Its a really bad idea to tarnish the name of Firefox with an association with the malware known as realplayer. Big thumbs down.
I've pretty much boycotted RM player for being slow, intrusive, etc. As long as FF doesn't try to default-install this stuff, or god forbid, update, I will be fine.
3 quicktime/winamp, lightest general use player ever!
Mozilla has just entered into a multi-year agreement with Real Networks
Look, if you plan to sell your soul, at least sell it to the devil himself, not just any ol' schmuck in goat leggings.
Like Billy G - Now he might have given you fame, power, glory, girls (hey, look at Melinda!). But no - Instead, you gave your soul to a guy named Phil who smokes too much and ends every sentence with "Trust me!".
In five years, when you all look back and wonder how you went from posing a serious threat to MSIE, to posing a sort-of-maybe threat to Opera - Remember this day.
This should make uninstalling Firefox/Mozilla a real Joy! I'd rather a nasty case of dysentery than have a "Real" product installed on my system (dysentery is much easier to get rid of...)
I'm not fat, just big boned...
IMNSHO Real Player is a plague to be avoided like syphilis. Ok, so if Mozilla will be distributed with Real software that is one thing, but I don't want to download Mozilla just to find out that Real software is in the installation package.
You can't handle the truth.
I can't fault Moz/firefox for proliferating itself, but I hope this is only one of many bundling strategies they're attemping. I personally will never download any Real products again, but I'm sure their content strategy is working to some degree. Still, it won't win Moz/firefox the market
First BBC, now Mozilla?
Why do these people partner with Real?
Obviously the deal makers have never used the software and seen what a piece of crud it is.
. . . with the Release of RealOne player. Not only did they bundle in malware that changed media process control all over the OS map, it had these "helpful" internet processes that hijaked ports to download "suggestions" and "information". In the olden days, it was a lightweight media player that snapped open and actually did some network negotiation to deliver an optimal stream - download Real Player now and it takes 60 seconds to load on my dual core while it propigates its navigation with advertisements and crap from Real Network's CDN.
It's not bad because of Real. It's bad because if I'm downloading a program, then THAT'S what I want, not that extra shit. This bundling has always annoyed me - try getting Quicktime without having to download a 25-meg copy of iTunes (which, if you don't use the store, is a pain in the ass to use).
HI, MY NAME IS ISAAC.
At least you still CAN get firefox alone.
I can't download Itunes, unless I download Quicktime media player. I swear the only reason macs are better for video is because Apple has yet to create a GOOD version of Quicktime media player for the PC. Luckily MPC can use quicktime file formats, though I'm sure apple is mad about that one. But the fact I have to get their less than wonderful software on my system, infecting it, just so I can go use Itunes (which I enjoy), and listen to music (perhaps paying for more music)
I just hope firefox stays solo and corporately neutral, because it's the one thing that keeps Firefox high up in my book.
I understood it to mean that when you download the real player, you get firefox too. Is it the other way around also>?
...that Firefox is being bundled with Real's stuff, not the other way around.
Idiots.
Dunno how you got modded insightful. If you checked the article, you'd see that it's Firefox getting bundled with Realplayer, not the reverse.
Sure, Real is bad, horrible, evil, but if they manage to get people away from IE (perhaps with the inclusion of a subtle "[X] Check here to make Firefox your default web browser", I'd say huzzah to the lesser of two evils.
And maybe (/wishful thinking) if the Fox devs can smack some sense into Real devs during downtime, added bonus.
I can deal with that bundling since I don't download RP. If RP starts coming with Firefox, then FF will be out the window in a heartbeat!
I wonder what consequences will it have:
- when I download Firefox I will be faced with a webpage that urges me to get RealPlayer (but I still can opt-out from that)?
- when I download Firefox I will be forced to grab 20MB setup.exe only to choose to not install RealPlayer and only install Firefox which is about 5MB?
I am curious because in fact I hate RealPlayer and consider that is RealCrap. But on I don't mean Mozilla getting some money and pumping it into developement of its open source products.
So in fact it remains to be seen how they will implement this cooperation.
I was about to post a rant about how stupid this move is, until I saw that it was RealNetworks distributing FireFox, not the other way around.
As long as Mozilla doesn't distribute RealPlayer (or related products) with FireFox I have no problems.
Never again will that spawn be on my PC.
As long as Mozilla stuff doesn't ship with Real Networks crap, I'm fine with it.
No worse than selling computers with Windows on it with Mozilla installed, really.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Real Networks entered into an agreement with Mozilla Foundation to bundle Firefox into downloads of Real Network Applications.
Firefox will NOT come with any Real Network applications.
Real player is bundled by a lot of OEM manufacturers. If this extends to that also, it will be a tremendous boon to Firefox!
There: Something at a specific location.
Their: Owned by someone.
Please make sure your english compiles.
So much built in advertising for so little gain vs the alternatives. But so long as they're bundling Firefox with Real downloads, and not the other way around, I suppose there's no problem with that, unless Mozilla is paying them.
Dude
Firefox is not coming with realplayer. Its the other way round. Realplayer will come with forefox. This is no different than google desktop teaming up with sun for java downloads.
Then the user could snort coke off the disc after clicking "no thanks" 50 times in order to install Mozilla. :)
Is it really so much about so-called "business practises"... or is it just because Real stuff JUST SUCKS?
So this changes nothing for users of FF, but might be good for Real users who clearly deserve to be expunged from the gene pool by virtue of having willfully downloaded the #1 rated crapware on teh interwebs.
At least maybe, maybe they'll use FF instead of IE, which is good at least until IE7 is generally available.
[1] I hope to hell that assumption is correct.
Web2.0: I love when people Flickr my cuil and digg my boingboing until my google is reddit and I start to yahoo
The funny thing about the rhapsody jukebox software is that it requires Windows media player> so that to me tells me what they think about their own product (realplayer) > i use linux so this wont effect me anyway but i think it is a bad move on behalf of the mozilla foundation :(
For the curious: Real Player's Questionable Practices. On the other hand, Some might be cheered by the fact that they Bypassed FairPlay.
As for Firefox... I'm seriously thinking of switching to Opera anyway. Heck I live in Norway these days.
Har du bra.
"No fear. No envy. No meanness." Liam Clancy
Now it's dirty by association.
Doesn't matter to me though. Switched to Opera when Mozilla buggered up from an updated extension.
Mozilla got so much money. But do they invest in development? I fear they don't. Just look at Sunbird, Lightening or whatever the calendar is called these days. Or NVU's son KompoZer?
Mozilla has the ressources to cross-finance development of other tools, to bootstrap open source. But it seems they don't want to.
I mean we have a successful tool called Firefox every company likes to play with, including a fanatic user community. We have a a wonderful mail client which lacks a calendar tool.
But what about other tools of the community? Chatzilla - wouldn't it be nice to get a standalone version? Or Fireftp stabdalone? A preconfigured Bugzilla server distribution. KompoZer. Better spellchecking tools and dictionaries. Tools for Internet Cafés, I think of a kind Browser-Only plugandplay Linux distribution. Brushed Theme for Thunderbird. An ODF view plugin. A usable pdf viewer. Developer Conferences coorganised by their mozilla-hungry AJAX-fanatic bigbusiness friends.
Real Networks, oh well.
From what I read, it comes bundled with downloads of realplayer, but realplayer is not bundles with downloads of firefox.
In other words: Firefox=Firefox, Realplayer=Realplayer+Firefox
Still not the nicest company to bundle with in terms of reputation, but at least it doesn't seem that you're getting stuck with Real when installed firefox.
I was hoping that Real would have a nice, slow death and never be heard from again. But now it looks like Mozilla is prolonging the inevitable.
"Leo Fender was in a 'state of grace' when he designed the Stratocaster." -- Paul Reed Smith
Firefox
Real Alternative
All of the functionality of this debacle without the spyware.
Although any connection with Real makes me feel slightly soiled, I think it's important to resolve some ambiguity in the story write-up.
As I understand it this deal means that you will get Firefox when you download RealPlayer, etc.
It does not appear to mean that you will get RealPlayer when you download Firefox.
The former is slightly scummy. The second would seriously taint Firefox in many people's eyes.
Do Not Want.
It's not added to firefox, fucktard. Firefox is added to realplayer. Learn to read.
So does this mean that FireFox is going to get classified as spyware along with all the other Realplayer crap? Will, like other Realplayer crap, FireFox not get uninstalled when you uninstall Realplayer??
I REPEAT, THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT MOZILLA NOW PACKAGES REAL SOFTWARE WITH ITS PRODUCTS. IT IS THE OPPOSITE, REAL WILL NOW PACKAGE FIREFOX WITH THEIR PRODUCTS.
Can we call off the Calvary now?
Faith is a willingness to accept something w/o complete proof and to act on it. Reason allows you to correct that faith.
...I'm not seeing anywhere where it says that RealPlayer will come bundled with future versions of Firefox, only that Firefox will come with Real Products.
Of course, if it DOES come to pass I give it two days before someone comes out with a Firefox Extension called "RealRemover"
(From the Laws of Japanese Animation) Law of Inherent Combustibility -- Everything explodes. Everything.
Their not gonna change their license or anything are they?
Big mistake IMHO. Real appears to suck just as badly today as they did when I swore I'd never use their player again, what, 7-8 years ago? But I guess money talks. I sure don't have much to throw Mozilla's way, so...
Knee-jerk now, read the article later.
...SUCKS!
Crunch!
Realplayer pissed me off way back... when they started with their systray crap. EUREKA - I think they may have been the pioneer of annoying, increadibly usesless system tray icons! Ya feel me? Apple and Quicktime, yes, you are also idiots. What a waste of space! I don't need or want extra, pointless icons and software that adds itself to startup only to waste memory & time. The fact that Firefox comes with Realplayer and not the other way around is the only good thing about this move. Here's to the sites that force folks to get deal with Realplayer in the first place - you're idiots too. Wow, I've wanted to vent on that for a long time.
Do or do not. There is no try. --Yoda
If memory serves, this technique worked really well for Netscape.
If you must... http://www.free-codecs.com/download/K_Lite_Codec_P ack.htm and download K-Lite... which includes RealAlternative, and a Quicktime Alternative (another usless program that takes over your associations)
Where's The Ban Firefox/Mozilla petition at?
I'm fighting The War on Drugs!
There is No Excuse for Real to still be around. There is no excuse for anyone to associate with Real.
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
I agree that it is great that Firefox is added to Real Player and not the other way around. However people are still going to see an opportunity to download Firefox and not see the opportunity to do it seperately from Real Player. This happened to me when I downloaded Firefox as a bundle with the Google Toolbar. Now I know better and I could have gone to the official website but most people are just going to be lazy and download both together.
Plus my post was in more of a humorous tone then an insightful one so I agree that I don't know how I got modded that way. Oh well I can't complain.
I despise Realplayer. It does nothing for me, and when it gets installed, it's harder to get rid of than spyware.
I believe things have changed for the better, but IIRC, RealPlayer didn't cause any problems provided you took the time to configure it, not unlike installing Windows for the first time and needing to spend a good amount of time unchecking and disabling all the "features." Most people didn't, of course, and hence the outcries of "spyware."
That said, the RealAlternative codec works fine, and when used with mplayerc (for Windows users), the playback problems are gone. No need for RealPlayer.
Try the Linux version. It's quite minimal, opens fast, and does it's job. The Mac version is also decent (doesn't force you to subscribe or try to run all the time). IMHO, it's much better than the crippled Quicktime. For Windows, though, that's where "Real Alternative" is an excellent choice.
"It ain't a war against drugs.it's a war against personal freedom" --Bill Hicks
As a representative of the collective internet users group I can tell you
that Real does not have that many downloads (I'm a net head and all my friends
would NEVER!) so not only is this not going to help the "open source browser"
but it will severly hurt it.
real player is a necessity when you want to listen to audio clips from sites such as http://www.npr.org/, but i don't hear any complaints about that one.
RP is not really that big of an issue provided you babysit the installation and only install what is needed to run rm streams. it's definitely not as big an issue as it was a number of years ago. the most annoying thing i find about it is when websites make you pick a specific media player, because variety IS the spice of life, but i can understand a group's choosing one format to avoid the cost of encoding across multiple formats.
now i just have to figure out if any of the 130 New Critical Objects Ad-Aware found on this computer were caused by Real Networks software so that I can make sure my foot isn't anywhere near my mouth...
Calling me a fucktard over a technacality is uncalled for. The truth is that a lot of people are going to download them as a bundle because they don't know any better and Real Player will forever be associated with Firefox and vice versa.
What was that saying? If you lie down with dogs you get fleas?
:)
If people download RealPlayer and realise it's crap, won't they also regard the progs that were bundled with it as crap also?
Besides. RealPlayer is a dead end format used by dusty old porn sites.
Or so I'm er.. told
The beloved Google also distributes real in its Google pack. There seems to be some google-mozilla-real alliance, which is a shame that Real is in that equation, cause it really is quite crap. Money talks I guess. And its the only "decent" (I use that term very loosely) commercial media player that isn't owned by Microsoft or Apple.
I.O.U One Sig.
Are the Mozilla guys this out of touch with the net community? Even Joe Schmoe knows Realplayer is a pain in the ass, let alone the community of developers who generally respect Mozilla. While it's good that Realplayer users can get access to better software, it's still a dodgy association; Real embody most of the things the Mozilla group are meant to represent the solution to.
Hmm... free Realplayer, free Cocaine... nope, not a difficult discision at all...
Regardless of how good or bad real player is. There is a version out for linux. At least there is media player a company that thinks there is a value for linux based products. Apple aviods linux as plague. I wont even talk about MS.
Real might have lost it's lusture, but I am still rooting for it just because it has a linux version. And for all the foss franatics dont reply to this email if you have macromedia flash or sun java or adobe reader installed.
Any company that releases software for linux platform is in my good books, be it real or nero.
The problem here is that you'd think Mozilla was above this terrible "bundling" practice now, and especially with crap. It makes me like the developers quite a bit less, and I'm sure will do absolutely nothing to help them. I and almost everyone I know avoid realmedia files like the plague. If nothing else is available, I simply choose not to view at all. And this comes at a time when Opera is no longer adware, and MSIE is kinda making a little effort to not suck so much. Bad move Firefox.
coming from this cooperation, many things like integrated ads and other deeds that have been done by real may be seeped into FF.... its not good imo
"The reverse side also has a reverse side." - Japanese Proverb
Did you even read the article? Firefox will be offered with every RealPlayer, Rhapsody and RealArcade download, NOT the other way around. You will still be able to download Firefox on its own, just as you have always been able to. This will only affect people downloading Real's products, and may convert a whole bunch of them into Firefox users. Where's the problem?
I'd say huzzah to the lesser of two evils.
hmm..lesser of two evils, Real vs. IE. That's a tough one.
While I certainly don't mind Firefox getting all the distro help they can get, I agree with the concenses that they really could have chosen a better 'Net citizen. Professionally, I just completely wiped out ALL REMNANTS of Real Player (etc) due to the security holes it creates and their utter lack of concern for helping to close them. There are now 250 public-use PCs (public library system in a major city) that no longer have their product installed. All we really needed from them was a way to disallow that damned web browser of theirs and all else would have been fine. No, Real are indeed BAD 'Net citizens!
On the other hand, I guess it's like using money stolen from drug dealers to feed the homeless. Whatever works for the good guys!
Real supported GNU/Linux before there was even a stable browser. Realplayer was one of the first commercial apps that actually worked on GNU/Linux (Stallman, I love you, but you give me finger cramps. And, yeah, you hate Real, too, I'm sure. :) ).
I never clip my fingernails for fear of dangling symbolic links.
...RealPlayer is bundled with Firefox!
To do evil that good may come of it is for bunglers in politics as well as morals. -- William Penn.
P.S. It's not like installing the real player is that difficult, it doesn't need to be bundled!
It's naive to think that the Firefox brand hasn't already been tarnished before this incident. It has been, and by Firefox's own doing. The main problem is the lack of quality of the 1.5.x releases. I don't know if that has been addressed in the 2.x releases, but the damage has already been done. The excessive memory consumption, that quick succession of rather serious security flaws, and finally just plain old crashes did much to harm its image.
.NET development. The consensus there is that Firefox is often no better than Internet Explorer. As such, many of the developers and IT staff who post there refuse to suggest it to their relatives, and refuse to suggest its corporate use. To those people, the name "Firefox" has become synonymous with low-quality, risky-security, and resource-intensive software. Many of these people will advocate Opera, however, as it has shown to be of a far higher quality and reliability as of late. Unlike Firefox, it still has a reputable name.
It's embarassing for a geek, or basically anyone, to suggest to all of his or her friends and relatives that they use Firefox instead of Internet Explorer, only to have it lead to serious problems. When it comes to computers with only 256 MB of RAM, which many people still have and use, Firefox can easily consume in excess of that. That leads to swapping, which can lead to rather unresponsive systems. Of course, Granny and Aunt Jenny have no idea why their systems are so slow after switching to Firefox. Not only do they pester their geek relative to fix it, but maybe they question that geek's knowledge. Geeks don't like that.
I run several web communities dealing with Java and
As far as I can tell, this is something Real is initiating, and not something Mozilla searched out. Don't blame Mozilla for that. I can see that if Mozilla was approached by Real with a deal to bundle the browser with Real, it would be like free advertisement and would be a great potential boost for exposure. I can only see this as a good thing for Mozilla.
This signature is far too complex to have been created by chance.
Most of the people I know who hate real have not used it since version 8.
Yes..there was a time when Real was an EVIL company. BUT..they have done many things since then (ever heard of helix player..you CAN download it for free you know). They've done quite a lot in the open source world as well.
Come on, it's legit to dump on a company for a bad product. But it's been YEARS since the worst of their products that had stuff bundled you didnt want was distributed.
Personally, I don't use real, but their stuff hasn't been horribly bad since the days when they were trying to trick you into installing stuff (which now they don't do).
Hating real has become de-facto religion for some.
Ahh, gotcha. That parent post was worded oddly. I thought the Real software would start showing up in FireFox downloads from mozilla.org.... but it's the other way around. Moreover, from the looks of it, I'm not the only one who thought that.
So, really, this isn't very "ewww" after all.
"Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"
There are a plethora of other choices for browsers out there, not just Opera or Firefox or what have you. My apologies that I can't think of any particular ones offhand (but if you know of or use a little-known alternative browser, please post links in reply).
If Firefox screws this one up (read: gets screwed in the fine print by RealNetworks) and ends up bundling the software together, then g33ky people such as us will simply do to it what we did to IE. And don't think the people at Mozilla don't know that. Don't sweat - you the user will win out in the end.
Putting the 33k in G33k.
Sure, you can continue to get Firefox the normal way. But them including themselves with RealPlayer (Which is one of the most horrendous apps known to man for installing things superfluous to the user's needs) is therefore agreeing with Real's horrible install process, which is as close to spyware and malware as is possible while not 'quite' actually being so.
It's a case of 'a means to an end'... well, it's not ok to align yourselves with a horrible product that installs in an invasive manner just so you can get a few more installs of Firefox out there, you're just going to be having their bad name rub off on you.
Bad move Mozilla... bad, bad move.
they better not start bundleing realplayer with firefox, i dont want that crap on my PC i will dump firefox like it had the plague and switch to opera
I especially like the first comment...
Best prank ever
So you give your opinion about a current product based on your experience with a 3 year old version of the same product?!
This reminds me of the Winamp/Netscape bundle. *shudders* Cold... so... cold...
Who cares? Real/firefox didnt have a deal when I downloaded firefox last year, and its not going to force me to install real on my next install either, so why would anyone have a problem with this?
I use real player frequently and Ive never had a problem with it. The older versions sucked though.
I wonder since when Real Player got so bloated that whole FireFox can be neatly tucked into distribution without users noticing it :)
Hyperom.com
Because if there are enough people using browsers other than Microsoft's, developers of large web sites have an incentive to develop to published standards rather than to IE's quirks and proprietary technologies. Diversity is the end, and Firefox is the means.
Firefox, about your new girlfriend? Bad News, dude, Bad News.
don't^h^h^h^h^h be evil.
Partnering up with retards like real is not worth the extra distrabution at all.
I don't know about you, but I don't subscribe to either of these.
I consider myself part of the Open Source community because I both use Open Source, and from time to time I've also written and released my own Open Source. I don't particularly care about spreading the philosophy (although I'm happy to explain it to people), and I don't feel the need to make people use it (although I'm happy to help them if they want to, within reason).
Personally I like and use Open Source software because in the ways that I like using software, I find it to be of superior quality and better suited to my needs for a variety of reasons. Running campaigns and trying to convert people to new philosophies has nothing to do with it.
Individual people or organisations within the open source community might have goals, but I don't think it's a serious problem if different groups disagree. I'm also not sure if it's meaningful to claim that people should be aiming for a goal just because they're involved in open source. If anything, perhaps one issue that could be addressed is how to better identify different interest groups without trying to bundle them all into the "Open Source Software Community" basket.
I installed realplayer once, probably back in 93 or 94.. I didn't think anything of it until one day, when I dialed my local ISP, and before ICQ could even connect, Zonealarm popped up an incoming request from Realnetworks. INCOMING! I didn't have the player or the retarded agent running, as far as I could tell, nothing should have alerted them to my net presence. Immediately, I uninstalled (and soon formatted) and fired off an angry email. I've since used RealAlternative, and with media player classic, it's Way more functional than anything Real offers.
I hope so. If not, that ends my use of Firefox both personally and in our entire office. I use Opera 9 most of the time anyway, but i will *not* have Real installed *anywhere*. Period. want to play Real? Use Real Alternative.
Whether it's one or it's the other, Real is not a nice company. They may be on a path to change their ways, or they may not--I recently installed RP, and it spewed unnecessary cruft all over the place, but no actual spyware. Either way, they have lost the geek trust, for a long time. Firefox wants to form a partnership with them. With the devil, as far as most of us are concerned.
It doesn't matter much who's packaging whom--this is an ugly move for the Mozilla leadership to try to make, and I hope they rethink it, fast.
It's rare that you're presented with a knob whose only two positions are Make History and Flee Your Glorious Destiny.
This is true, and good for them for reaching an agreement, although I'm curious to know what the hooks are in the agreement since Real would probably have been able to take and re-package Firefox regardless given its licensing. The main thing that I'm wondering about this is how much and in what ways Real might plan to modify Firefox for their own packaged version.
Will people with the Real build of Firefox get selective popup advertising from Real.Com? Will automatic upgrades come from the official Firefox distribution site, or from Real.Com? Will people easily be able to revert their installation to a generic Firefox? Given Real's reputation and past actions, it wouldn't surprise me too much if this became an issue.
one more anonymous coward jumping in the ant-mozilla FUD bandwagon...
If Real Networks wanted to bundle Firefox with RealPlayer (just to spite Microsoft due to past disagreements), the Mozilla Foundation couldn't really prevent them from doing so, since Firefox is open source. So perhaps it doesn't really make any difference whether this deal is called a "partnership" or not.
Back to using IE on Windows, then. Firefox as it is isn't exactly light-speed (ever compared it to Safari on OS X? It's a dog...), but with the recent improvements in IE7 and the nice spyware bundle with Firefox... looks like MS wins the browser wars, again.
I think the first thing that comes to mind is what people will start to think about Firefox. Sure, its userbase might be strengthened, but we are living in an age of browser spamming.
What do I mean by "browser spamming"? For example, let's say you install a popular piece of software like AOL. I have a laptop running Windows XP, and I also do not have any commercial antivirus of my own, so I installed AOL because my dad has an accoutn with them and from that I am able to get free McAfee service. AOL came bundled with "AOL browser." It's merely an IE frontend with a shinier interface and tabs. Also, try installing Realplayer for Windows--you can hardly load the damn thing without their little media browser coming up, loading all sorts of Real sponsored web pages. Is it possible for me to go anywhere or do anything without escaping some kind of little browser getting in my business?
Soon people will download Realplayer, an ad-supported shareware package, and they'll have Firefox. They'll begin to regard Firefox as the same sort of strings-attached freeware junk that Real is. Don't get me wrong--I think Realplayer is actually a very nice media player, but my beef against it is all the peripheral crap that comes with it and the intentionally-limited features.
It's important that people understand what Firefox truly is--Free software with a capital "F". They also need to understand that it comes from the Mozilla Foundation, not Real Networks. :-/
I do not like this association, I understand it from reals point of view, most people who know, loath real
these same people are fond of firefox and recomend it.
now those people we recommend firefox to will think real is good because we say firefox is good.
its shitty to do this, it's kinda like the people that you got to know through a friend and now keeps turning up although you wish they wouldn't.
yeah I know this post is kinda redundant but maybe the firefox devs will get the message this is an association which is good for real, all its done for mozilla is drag the mozilla foundations reputation down. mozilla is like an old friend who's just puked on my carpet. I will let it go once make it a habit and its bye bye time.
what makes this worse is there has been no discussion about this, surely there would have been a story posted on slashdot if this was being discussed on the mozilla forums. Someone would have leaked this if it wasn't being confined to a small group of people. who knew about this and did the deal. Did the lead developers know about this plan?
maybe slashdot should just do a poll and just let us show how many of us here approve or disapprove of this association.
Blarney Quality Restaurant, Plants
The only interesting thing about it was the possibility of playing RM clips, but it doesn't do that. It doesn't even play the old Real codecs they can't be bothered to support in their proper player. It seems useless, completely redundant next to VLC, unless I'm missing something?
OK, it is very nice looking. But so is my desktop wallpaper. And I appreciate that Real uses it as a basis for their surprisingly-non-shitty linux port. I'm talking about as a media player.
Realplayer is a load of ad filled crap....
Wanting to download iTunes without Quicktime is like wanting to download just the WinAmp interface without any of the MP3 or other media decoders.
"Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
Guess it's time to give Opera a try. While I understand that Realplayer isn't going to bundled with Mozilla, rather the other way around, it still bugs me. And, while I understand that it gets Mozilla to more people, I think they have enough of a "presence" on its own to not warrant a partnership with a company that uses questionable practices.
I'd be one to petition Mozilla, as RealPlayer is a piece of software that I refuse to be associated with. Also, I refuse to be associated with the following turds:
MS Passport SDK
Anything made or distributed by Rational (other than Rose)
Anything that was ever bundled in CA's Unicenter TNG
Windows ME
Microsoft MOM
Openair (the web site)
Windows versions of WordPerfect (other than in law offices)
ATM PVC and LANE configuration
Microsoft SMS
Seagate "WinInstall"
And many many more! I've even passed on job offers because something like Rational Clearcase was involved (Does IBM own Rational now?).
BBH
Under Linux, your favourate player will handle it. Under windows, you can use Real Alternative and QT Alternative to avoid the malware.
Personally I don't use products from Real (I haven't even looked at them for several years), however, they are popular.
People keep saying "Real sucks", well a hell of a lot of people use it/download it, so there are a lot more people out there who like Real. And all these people are now going to have a chance to try out Firefox.
Why does Firefox need to push its market share? More market share means more money for one (through the sponsored search), and more money *hopefully* translates into a better product, and more adverting/deals like this.
Right now, a lot of websites simply *arn't* Firefox friendly, if market share hit 35%, could these websites afford to ignore Firefox any more? As a Firefox user this is important to me...
Finally, the more market share Firefox takes, the better MS will have to make IE, and in turn the better Firefox will become.. Why release a product for something like web browsing if you only want a small market share?... Firefox isn't "A tool for geeks", it's something to make the web expierence better - and it certainly does (I know no mention of Opera and others in this post, they have their place, especially Opera, but Firefox is in the best position to gain market share right now it seems)
Bad move, Mozilla. Bad move.
A) Real has gotten much better than they used to be. The OS X version is actually pretty good.
B) It will force more web developers to make standards compliant websites. Think of all the blind people who will be able to surf websites that were once inaccessible once Firefox market share gets into the 25% range.
Most people think this is some sort of violation of ethics, but frankly I see it more as Real giving back to the Internet community for some unethical things they've done in the past.
The latest QuickTime formats are H.264/MPEG-4 AVC for video and AAC for audio. Open source decoders exist for both. In fact, last year, ffmpeg was bragging that they could play QuickTime 7 videos on Windows before QuickTime could.
The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet.
--Aristotle
you don't get spyware from Firefox, you get Firefox from spyware.
This is totally a great business move on Mozi
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Real software manages to find 2 million people gullible enough to download it.
Every day, though? That seems to be a high estimate, considering their bad press.
VOTE!
sentences between the subject header and the message body. Way to communicate effectively!
Modern copyright is theft of culture from everyone and it retards the progress of the useful arts and sciences.
All I have to say is... "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." -Master Yoda
@Mindless Drivel: 100% of Twitter posts ever Tweeted.
"Firefox will come with RealNetwork applications" is the more logical construct (since it's Firefox that's being bundled, not the RealNetwork Applications!) I think what you meant to say is: "RealNetwork applications will NOT come bundled with Firefox downloads from mozilla.com)
1 3674
Incidentally, you can read more about the deal (including some Slashdot bashing) at mozillaZine:
http://www.mozillazine.org/talkback.html?article=
Well, its a good thing they got involved with real netowrks rather than all those fake ones you hear about.
Have you noticed Mofos biggest "partner"? You are concerned about *Real* and association? Nope, Moz's biggest "partner" is Microsoft. Their biggest product is a web browser designed to run on the prince of evil's platform. That's a partnership any way you slice it. Supporters can kick and scream NO all they want, it's still a windows product primarily. I bet they laugh about it at the shareholders meetings, getting free superior code, they can swipe and use. FF has saved MS billions of dollars, now they can go on and stil be evile. If the Moz gods were really concerned with open source, they wouldn't be developing a product FOR closed source microsoft, they would have stuck to developing an open source browser for open source operating systems. They chose to do MS work for them, for freebies. FF has been the biggest friend MS has had, it has given them at least 2-3 years now breathing room to steal ideas and work on IE7, letting moz handle their security details (for those folks actually concerned with security) as a stand in proxy for awhile, and now they will be pushing out 7 as an automatic update to the vast masses. You think FF market share is really going to go up now, or will people see tabbed browsing and some more stuff on 7 and go "aww, fukkit" and switch back to IE or not even consider FF any more, as in "what's the point again?"?
I see moz going near stagnant in the next time frame period from this massive blunder, for some years. They have peaked at around 10% and will gradually lose numbers as soon as IE7 gets pushed out.
What was that dogs and fleas reference again?
Where is the reference for this claim: "However, many Firefox supporters question the move complaining of questionable practices by Real. ? The article referenced did not support this claim at all.
I wish this partnership would have the side effect to enhance Mozilla's compability with Real streams. A lot of html embedded streaming videos are not working proprely in Firefox right now. This is probably the results of piss-poor site designs, but it is still a shame.
DivX has already been distributing Firefox for many months.
If they want to bundle it with the Mozilla browser, fine. Let all the AOLers get it.
If they're going to bundle it with Firefox, they better either give the option for a Real-free download or an install-time opt-out.
If they force this on users, they're going to watch their market share completely fucking evaporate.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
This addresses longstanding concerns that Firefox can't compete with IE for spyware.
My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
If we're lucky Firefox will be bundled with Real's products and not the other way around. If it does go the other way, they better offer Firefox etc sans Real. I haven't had Real Player installed in years and I am in no rush to change that.
One of the reasons I use 'fox is because I trust the browser. Commercial pressures encourage Microsoft to leave open a number of avenues of attack simply because they are potentially useful for commercial purposes. Firefox, up until recently at least, has felt none of thsose pressures, and has been a better program as a result. IMO, obviously.
Now I don't know how many of Firefox' users share my criteria when selecting a browser, but time they do a deal like this, it weakens that trust. The google search box, when combined with prefetching, worried a lot of people, but they got away with that one, mainly because Google have this nice-guy rep. People are inclined to trust Google, so Firefox wasn't really tarnished by associate. I doubt that will be the case with Real.
Sez who? Wwho says Mozilla is in the business of anything? The only remotely commercial part of the operation is the Mozilla Corporation, and (if memory serves) that's a non-profit. If Mozilla are in the business of anything, it should be managing one of the worlds flagship open-source projects. Anything else opens the door to a conflict of interest, and that brings us back to questions of trust.
They don't need to win the browser wars. There's no shareholders to answer to here. The usual shallow excuses for shady corporate behaviour do not apply in this case.
They don't need to win the browser wars, and frankly - they were doing just fine without Real.
I really wonder if they've thought this one all the way through.
Don't let THEM immanentize the Eschaton!
All of the people who say Real is fine now are full of it.
.rm file. I have a media player I like, and there are reasons for my liking it. I shouldn't have to install/launch a different one to view a different codec. Give me a simple 1MB filter package like every other normal codec for christ sakes. Nope, you must use realplayer, or realone, or whatever the fuck its called now.
1. I don't want to have to download 20 megs of crap to watch a
It's a great player because it has bright flashing lights that scroll across the screen telling me what I'm watching so in case you're watching a file and don't know what you clicked play on, it'll scroll it across your screen for the entire duration of the video. What a great feature. I hope someday they add that to movie theaters too. Huge neon lights that flash strobe-like that say "YOU ARE CURRENTLY WATCHING THE MOVIE ENTITLED "GODFATHER".
I don't know, I don't get these people who develop Media players I guess, but I don't want 50000 buttons on screen when I'm in full screen mode. Full screen mode means I want to watch the goddamn movie and I have everything set already. I know what file I opened, you don't need to scroll it across the screen every 2 seconds. Media Player Classic is the only media player I've found that isn't totally stupid in that regard.
Then theres the players that try to be everything else too. "Let me take over as your picture viewer, email client, office suite!" they scream. "Do you want me to spend 45 minutes scanning and indexing every media file on your computer before I play this file?" they ask on every launch.
This is how it works, there is a 99% chance that if I'm downloading a media player aimed at video, I only want it to play video. There are far better audio-only players. I don't need your half-assed coded addon to handle my music which I have a specialized application installed for already, or my email, or text editing.
2. Real was pure garbage back in the day and remains so today. What do they have to offer? x264 is a far better video codec, their audio codec loses easily to AAC. So... what do they bring to the table now? Nothing, thats what.
Fuck Real, I hope they go bankrupt. They are a shining example of how NOT to approach audio/video codec development.
Yes, real format is falling out of niche, and but i really don't like bundled stuff like that. For godsake, if i want real, let me have it, why ff should tag along.I already have it on system.But i guess, they will give option to choose the install type, without ff or with ff. If they don't give this option, then it would be really bad. And all this shit will eventually help, turning out all those folks who are passionate about firefox. And it would certainly piss some people off. I already hate, when with Adobe reader Yahoo toolbars come bundled.
Everyone is asking "why are Mozilla getting involved with Real?"
I'm wondering the opposite. Why on earth do Real think it's a good idea to bundle a browser with a media player. Here's a hint - they probably already have a browser if they're downloading RealPlayer, and they will probably keep right on using the same one.
And so Firefox goes in the basket with all the rest of the crapware that you don't actually need in order to run the core product.
Right after I finish this I'm going to quit using Firefox and uninstall it and switch to Opera exclusively until Mozilla cancels this agreement and makes it very public (as in I'll read about it here). Real Networks has been an unprincipled mob from the start, and any agreement like this supports and implicitly encourages Real to continue being the same unprincipled mob.
THE GOAL DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS. Do you hear that, Mozilla?
I don't care about Real's "bad reputation", I just don't like having to make sure to uncheck the "Install this super app!" checkboxes whenever downloading software. If I had occasion to download Real Player, I don't want to have to make sure to uncheck the "Download Firefox" checkbox. And the same goes for all other bundled software. It's bad enough that Google Toolbar comes bundled with everything alread (as an opt-out checkbox); I don't like Google Toolbar, have no need for it, and don't like having it shoved down my throat. I wouldn't like Firefox shoved down my throat either.
(btw, I use Opera, FF, and IE7 interchangably, just whatever I feel like using at the time; I don't care about the browser war stuff.)
-- "I never gave these stories much credence." - HAL 9000
"Techie" is a broad term. Just because I'm an EE and work as a programmer, it doesn't mean that I continuously track the changes in each revision of every single shitty program on the planet.
And RealPlayer in particular is one thing I don't give a fuck about anymore anyway. It's not only that it's annoyed me too much with their shitty spyware back then, it's that I don't really have an incentive to bother with it anymore anyway. Did it change its ways? I dunno. Do I give enough of a fuck to check out? Nope. The vast majority of the media files on the net these days are in DivX, WMV and QuickTime format. In that order.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
...the moment we do have to accept Real* rubbish with a Firefox download, I'm switching browsers to whatever does not force me to. Sorry, but my privacy and control over what gets installed on my machine is more important than a browser war. Please do not make that mistake Firefox. I like you a lot, but not more than my privacy and freedom of choice.
Find a job you like and you will never work a day in your life.
Good god, is it April 1 already again?
Next up: Microsoft elected chair of OASIS OpenDocument Technical Committee
"We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
I'm surprised I got all the way through the summary without buffering.
Those who believe the Internet is private,
find their privates are on the Internet.
..now Firefox comes with a virus, must be trying to catch up with IE. It seems I will be becoming an Opera fan shortly. There is no frickin way that Real anything is getting on my PC.
Exactly what kind of popularity are we talking about? It's a format that rose to prominence just on the back of some deals with porn sites, and which in the last years has steadily been dumped by everyone _including_ those porn sites. Other than a couple of minor older sites, have you even _seen_ a .rm file on the net lately? Almost everything these days is WMV, DivX and QT.
.rm files. Not when it's a fringe heading steadily towards extinction.
So, really, what popularity? I'll call a format or player popular when it's the format you run into on every other site. When youtube, google, and even a neighbour's vacation videos are
Or, oh, you mean the "2 million downloads a day" boast? Note that they don't say 2 million _RealPlayer_ downloads a day. They most likely include everything else downloaded from their servers, including music from their subscription service, short video clips that noone wants and everyone makes their player download automatically at startup, patches, updates, programs like Firefox, etc. I'd be thoroughly surprised if even 1/10 of those were actually RealPlayer downloads.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
Real has forever set itself in my mind is "bad". Nothing they can do can change that. It's like releasing a serial killer and then invite him for some coffee and to play with the dog and the children. It is a bad idea.
So I really hope I can still download clean installs of firefox, because the second it includes even a single bit from Real, I will utterly refuse to use it. I won't recommend anyone I know to use it. I will make sure noone I help out gets it installed.
Since it is OSS and all I hope someone builds Real free releases as well, or if push comes to shove forks the whole thing. But Real? I think that even Microsoft would have gone down better...
Is Mozilla losing touch with their base? 90% of the Firefox supporters I know purposefully use Real Alternative to get around the general pushiness of RealPlayer. Real is a great format, and an absolutely CRAPTACULAR media client. It's you-need-it marketing that's gotten way, way out of control, and that's specificly why people don't like using it.
Hopefully, garbage-free versions of Firefox will still be available for people who want to manage their own plugins. Because the day I can't get Firefox as a pure, junk-free standalone is the day I stop upgrading to the newest version.
I've been contemplating switching to Opera.....this just finalized my decision.
Firefox 2 contains an optional phishing filter which would provide so much information to Google that it's worse than phishing itself. And now this deal with Real... I am disappointed.
Time to switch back to a different Gecko-based browser, such as Seamonkey. Or better yet, Opera 9. Now that's a good browser, albeit unfortunately not open.
I wholeheartedly agree. Many in the "Open Source" movement don't care about the freedoms that are guaranteed by licenses like the General Public License. What they care about is that software is free/gratis, and that the work is done quickly and by "somebody else". For an example of this line of thinking, read Eric S. Raymond's "The Cathedral and the Bazaar". In that book, he gloats that he did a minimal amount of the work involved in writing fetchmail, yet he is still able to claim fame for authoring it. Not once does he mention anything about freedom or the immorality of proprietary software.
The open source debate is one of a finanical nature. It's a convenience. A business model. A marketing tool. It's an equal alternative to "closed source" software, where both are acceptable methods of software development. There's hardly any "philosophy" involved here.
The free/libre debate is one of pragmatism, philosophy, ethics, ideals, and, of course, freedom. It is not an accessory or a commodity, because it is founded on a single-faced sincerity.
If we would just stop using the terms "open source software" and "closed source software" and called them by their real and rightful terms, which are respectively "free software" and "proprietary software", then I think people's mindsets on the realities of both would be clearer.
Have you driven a fnord... lately?
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They still don't allow you to transcode Real content into other formats. Their codecs are still proprietary one-way black holes, distributed only as binaries, with a restrictive EULA.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
Real Networks? Are you fucking kidding me? I refuse to use a browser that willingly associates themselves with these asshats. FUCK MOZILLA. I'm switching to Opera, and taking all my friends and family with me (since I'm the only one who ever installs anything on their computers anyway).
Maybe its just a bad encode, but i got an hour long asian tv show that is done in RMVB, and its 180MB's, and its horrid! Its choppy and blurry and yucky looking. Seriously an xvid at half the size would look/play much smoother and better. If this is a valid example of Real codeds, they just need to go out of business. I am just glad xvid exists. Thats my codec of choice.
I have a few questions regarding this: 1) So they are packages together, but do they have options where I can choose not to install Real? 2) Does Real still put all that stuff on at windows startup and does it still bother me with Real Messages?
Enough with all the bitching about how Real is an awful software company (they are) and how horrible their windows product is (it is) and how their Mac program looks all goofy in OS X (it does).
The fact remains that if I want to listen to a web stream, and the content provider is hellbent on using a proprietary encoding mechanism for that distribution -- which they usually are -- if I'm running any Linux distro, the only option I have, other than using the contraband w32codecs package, is to use RealPlayer.
And for as bad as people want to make their software out to be, I think the criticisms that can be directed at the GTK+ based package for Linux are really few and far between. They've released their decoder to Linux, and as a Linux user, I can take full advantage of their offerings. This is something that neither Microsoft nor Apple seem to have on their to-do list, and so, as a user of all three (Win / Mac / Linux) systems, I say "fuck it". I listen to RealPlayer streams only anymore, because it's the only system through which I can legally do it on every computer I use.
I agree, they've done some crappy stuff in their past; their Windows client is a wreck and the Mac one isn't much better; and sure, the ridiculous amount of extra software they want you to install is unacceptable. But this misses a key point which should be of primary concern to many in the Slashdot community, among others -- I can legally use it in Linux.